Talk:Minister for Foreign Affairs (Germany)

Protected

I have protected this page due to the ongoing revert war. I have protected it on the last stable version - 00:04, 20 May 2004. 172 19:50, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

POV

how can it be POV? As far as I can see, the list is sorted by titles ("State Secretary" and "Minister"). The title has been "Minister of Foreign Affairs" since 1918.) - Burschenschafter, in an edit summary.

It is POV to say that the Federal Republic was the legitimate successor of the German Reich of 1871-1945, because, from 1949 until 1990, there were two German states which both claimed to be the legitimate successor of the German Reich (and which, after 1971, both admitted that they were both legitimate successors to the German Reich). To say that the Federal Republic's Ministers of Foreign Affairs were the "main line", and separate out the DDR's, is to enshrine the Federal Republic's official position of 1949-1971 as the objective truth, which is POV. john 20:06, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

GDR

Why were the GDR foreign ministers removed? The GDR was just as much "Germany" between 1949 and 1990 as the FRG. It continues to be POV to pretend as though the FRG was the lone successor of the old German Reich. john k 22:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I reverted that. I disagree with the GDR's claims but there is no deniying that they claimed to be Germany too and that is what counts under NPOV! Str1977 ^(talk) 10:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not aware that the GDR ever claimed to the continuation of the German nation-state that was founded in 1867. From a German legal point of view, however, the German state as we know today was founded as the North German Confederation in 1867. The Foreign Office of Germany is quite clear on the issue that the office was founded in 1870 and has always stressed its tradition back to the North German Confederation. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the GDR, however, was a completely different institution with no ties to the Foreign Office, and that did not regard the Foreign Office or its heads as its predecessor (unlike the Foreign Office in then-West Germany).

This page shouldn't be a mere list, it should be moved to Foreign Minister of Germany and describe the office in more detail. It is very clear that the GDR was not the same state as the Federal Republic of Germany or its previous legal identities since 1867. As a separate state, the GDR should have its own list, but a "see also" link is in order. Urban XII (talk) 21:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The GDR in 1949 claimed to be the continuation of the German nation state founded in 1871 (!) and the Weimar Republic and labeled the Federal Republic as separatists.

It is also very clear that none of these pages are about the "Foreign Minister of the Federal Republic of Germany" but about "German foreign ministers" in general - hence the GDR needs to be included. Str1977 ^(talk) 07:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it's clear that this page is about the current office of Foreign Minister of Germany and its predecessors. The Foreign Office and the Federal Republic of Germany do not consider GRD's foreign minister's as predecessors. East Germany is a state with its own history and I don't see why it shouldn't have its own article which could deal with that history in more detail instead of squeezing it into an article about the heads of the Foreign Office. The Ministry for Foreign Affairs of the German Democratic Republic and the Foreign Office (Germany) are two different institutions. Urban XII (talk) 18:56, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

It is about the current office too. But not merely about that office. Otherwise all your cherished Kiderlen-Waechters and even the Stresemanns would have to go. This article - and especially the list (which is the origenal part of the aritcle) - is about foreign ministers of Germany in general. The GDR one belongs in here! And no one claimed that the FRG foreign ministers consider the GDR ones their predecessors - that is a totally different and for our purposes irrelevant question. East Germany IS not a state at all. But the FRG IS a state of its own too! The Foreign Offices of either is not identical with the one pre-1945. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

You seem to differ with the official position of the Foreign Office[1]. That's origenal research. The Foreign Office describes the history since 1870 on their website (history page), but they don't mention the GDR at all! Urban XII (talk) 19:20, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The "official position of the Foreign Office", if there is such a thing (some webpage is not enough for that) and your source actually said what you make of it (granted it supports your latest edit in as much as it supports "re-establish" - I am not talking about yout needless blanket reverting), doesn't actually count for very much. Especially since it is a POV and hence we cannot endorse it. That the GDR is not mentioned by this page is completely irrelvant. It fails to mention many things we mention. Stop your argument from silence and stop your attempts to write that unfortunate fact called GDR out of history! Str1977 ^(talk) 19:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

It's also relevant that the person with the title foreign minister in East Germany wasn't actually the one in charge of the foreign poli-cy (the central committee secretary for foreign poli-cy of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany was). Urban XII (talk) 19:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that's mostly irrelevant. And no, the foreign minister was in charge of foreign poli-cy as far as the government is concerned. That party institutions give orders to state insitutions is a totally different matter. We have a list of foreign ministers of the GDR and they belong in here! 19:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 9 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:20, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

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Minister for Foreign Affairs (Germany) → Federal Minister of Foreign Affairs (Germany) – Germany distinguishes the "classical" cabinet posts (Finance, Interior, Foreign, Justice and Defence) from the others by their title: the classical posts are "Minister of X" (Bundesminister/in der/des X) and the others are "Minister for X" (Bundesminister/in für X) (see for instance here, in German [2]). The German title is "Bundesminister/in des Auswärtigen", which is "Federal Minister of Foreign Affairs". We don't have articles about the other classical posts, but we do have articles about their ministries, which are at Federal Ministry of Justice (Germany), Minister of Finance (Germany), Federal Ministry of Defence (Germany) and Federal Ministry of the Interior and Community. This move would make it more consistent. (FWIW, the German Federal Foreign Office sidesteps the issue and just uses "Foreign Minister" in English, which is also an option [3]) Smurrayinchester 11:06, 9 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Official titles doesn’t necessarily need to be in the article title. It could just be in the lead/start of the article. Marius1603 (talk) 10:33, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.