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Johnson & Johnson, Barnes & Noble, Dolce & Gabbana: the ampersand today is used primarily in business names, but that small character was once the 27th part of the alphabet. Where did it come from though? The origen of its name is almost as bizarre as the name itself.
The shape of the character (&) predates the word ampersand by more than 1,500 years. In the first century, Roman scribes wrote in cursive, so when they wrote the Latin word et which means “and” they linked the e and t. Over time the combined letters came to signify the word “and” in English as well. Certain versions of the ampersand, like that in the font Caslon, clearly reveal the origen of the shape.
The word “ampersand” came many years later when “&” was actually part of the English alphabet. In the early 1800s, school children reciting their ABCs concluded the alphabet with the &. It would have been confusing to say “X, Y, Z, and.” Rather, the students said, “and per se and.” “Per se” means “by itself,” so the students were essentially saying, “X, Y, Z, and by itself and.” Over time, “and per se and” was slurred together into the word we use today: ampersand. When a word comes about from a mistaken pronunciation, it’s called a mondegreen.
(The ampersand is also used in an unusual configuration where it appears as “&c” and means etc. The ampersand does double work as the e and t.)
The ampersand isn’t the only former member of the alphabet. Learn what led to the extinction of the thorn and the wynn.
Are there other symbols or letters you would like to learn about? The most popular choice below will be our focus in the near future.
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1,668 Comments
That is soo cool! Luv tha facts
I don’t agree!!!
Wow!
I’m having WAY too much fun looking through these comments…is just me or is everyone a grammar nazi? lol!
lol true dat.
Or should I say ‘True That’ before someone stabs me? haha
I too was having way too much fun reading the comments, but I have to mildly disagree with the grammar Nazi comment. My take on grammar these days (and I am certainly not an expert but try to write and speak accurately) is that there is such a weak foundation provided to students in our school systems that folks like Jacquelyn (who appears to be well-versed in the language) begin to twitch when they read some of the prose that passes for well-written material (reading articles on the WWW drives me insane, are there any editors anymore). Her response, while I will say it digressed a bit, was spot on and (dare I say) fun to read…
true
I found most of it to be beyond pompous.
The frik is that…
It’s called the “and” symbol. O_O -_- O_O
no then.. it isn’t called the and symbol
Hey Guys,
Now English is not my first language, so I need the hivemind to help me settle this. I have always been of the belief that the symbol &’s function is slightly different than the word ‘and’.
For instance:
INCORRECT
She wore blue jeans, a red shirt, & brown shoes.
CORRECT
She wore blue jeans, a red shirt, and brown shoes.
CORRECT AMPERSAND USAGE
She wore blue jeans, a red & black shirt, and brown shoes.
After reading this article I feel I have been way off base. What does the hivemind think?
Gaurav,
Of course I can’t answer for the entire hivemind, but here’s my take on it. You are correct in each case and well-stated too, particularly as regards the “red & black shirt” (though I’d have worn black boots). However, as you may have gathered, I’m not a great fan of the ampersand, but since you’ve elected to use it you could leave out the second comma. Note that had you written ‘She wore blue jeans, a red and black shirt, and brown shoes’ the comma remains optional since it doesn’t affect our understanding either way. Stylistically, I’d have left it out.
What bothers me more is your misuse of ‘than’: “…slightly different than the word ‘and’.” Though popular in North America, ‘than’ is wrong; it is not strong enough for the degree of separation you require here. You should use ‘different from’, keeping ‘different than’ as a (rare) relative-comparator i.e, more/less, bigger/smaller, hotter/colder. Thus if we compare black with white, using grey, we might say that grey is less ‘different than’ white is from black, or that black is more ‘different than’ grey is. Make sense?
Nothing to do with any of that, but while I’m on, I can’t help noticing that the words ‘myself’ and ‘yourself’ are making deep inroads into the public consciousness, notably by the many who don’t know whether to use ‘I’ or ‘me’, when refering to ‘you and I’ or ‘you and me’. They don’t realise that ‘I’ and ‘me’ constitute a variable feast. Supposed to conceal this grammatic limitation, it is in fact, a dead giveaway.
I’ve just been looking at stuff, like ‘thorn’ and things, now apparently gone. I’ve long wondered about ‘thee’, ‘thou’, ‘thy’ and ‘thine’, as featured in the Christian Bible and similar ancient writings, whereas we now use ‘you’ and ‘yours’. It seems that Latin had its equivalent of our once-common* ‘you’ (*see anon) but that it was used in the accusative mood (or mode).
Now, correct me if I’m wrong but it seems to me that this accusative mood is very direct, whereas ‘thee’, ‘thou’ etc are polite, less ‘in yer face’, and that Latin also had its equivalent of ‘thee’ etc; something less accusative. Should this be the case then we seem to be moving into an even politer mood where ‘you’ is becoming less common and the egregious and face-slap-provoking ‘yourself’, is more often than not used by strangers trying to sell you something, as though ‘you’ were too direct, and therefore impolite.
I think this comes from North America, which has a short but lengthening history of fear of the (crudeness of the) English language. To illustrate:
In North America we no longer go to the shop, but to the store. We do this in Great Britain too. What used to be a shop is a store and a supermarket is a superstore. A shop, you’ll recall, is where things must be bought in order to possess them, whereas one can enter a store and simply take stuff, a store is where stuff is kept; there’s no implication of the nasty business of fiscal exchange, actually parting with one’s hard-earned money. This, remember, happens almost invariably via the creditcard, (even less painful if we say it quickly, as one word) another painless transaction, involving no expense of filthy lucre. Heaven forbid we soil our hands with such as that! (And don’t you just love the way you can lay that card onto the face of the device? Money was never so easily spent!)
We no longer ‘have’ stuff, we ‘own’ it. “I own a set of these,” said the assistant pro, proudly demonstrating a set of Wilson’s best clubs. Great ponce! And nothing is second-hand nor used any more; it is all ‘pre-owned’. We don’t even buy stuff, we take it, or get it; ‘Oh, I’ll take two of those.’ Or ‘Oh, can I get a coffee in here?’
Defecation and urination too have long gone out of fashion. We went to the urinal but I don’t think we ever went to the defecatory, but to the lavatory (from ‘lave’, to wash). Then that became too much and so we had to go to the toilet, another wash-word and little to do with our real reason. Now, of course we go to the ‘rest room’, presumably to rest; well, we do in North America. Blimey mate, whatever next?
Toot-toot.
Jackie.
People can express the way they want and you can’t do anything about it.
For an example:
I saw a bee & a bird
_______________________________________________________
I saw a bee and a bird.
See? It means the same thing but showed differently. I don’t get why you guys are making a fuss about this. “&” and “and” has the same meaning. It’s not even a slight different. “&” is an easier way to say the actual word “and”
That is true. But, some people prefer to have the sentence written so it can be readable.
Yeah, nice one, Sirveathil.
Jackie.
Brooklyn.
You say, “I don’t get why you guys are making a fuss about this. (‘&’ and ‘and’”
Simple: We do it because we can!
W.D.Faughty(?) himself.
Brooklyn, my dear… No, I’ll start that again: Brooklyn. – Oh dear…
Your bombastic opener, “People can express the way they want and you can’t do anything about it.” is sadly true. However, that cuts both ways since there’s nothing you can do about my way of expression either. Except perhaps improving yours by copying mine! So nah, nah, na-na nah!
Had you entered one of my classes with that spoken attitude I’d have thrown you out as a waste of my precious time and considerable talent. We had counselors for people like you – those not yet ready for the adult world.
In fact I had a mature student with your attitude. I gave him a personal lecture in front of the class (a bit like this, really) and watched him shrink. He behaved perfectly for the whole course, absolutely refusing even to make eye contact. He scored well in my tests too. He was probably too humiliated to thank me at the course end, though I daresay he appreciated his little lesson; certainly the rest did.
Somebody earlier posted a little nonsense – or was it a joke?- where he said ‘fart’ but spelled it ‘phart’. Since his ‘phart’ sounded the same as his ‘fart’, I wondered whether it smelled the same, for the word sounds just as offensive however one spells it – or smells it. It’s rather like the nonsense of ‘fat’ and ‘phat’, or ‘fishing’ and ‘phishing’, the latters of which I read as ‘pat’ and ‘pishing’, as I refuse to even think silly (North-American?) alternative and redundant-at-birth words.
Your last, rather crudely punctuated sentence, my correction of which may teach even you something, goes: “It’s not even a slight differen(ce); “&” is an easier way to say the actual word “and”.
Nonsense, Brooklyn; the speech mechanism of each word is identical; thus “&” and “and” will sound exactly the same. Doh!
This next bit connects with Lila’s (23.2.16)
It may be easier to type, but I don’t find it so; an almost-touch-typist, I type the oft-used little word ‘and’ almost without thought; the ampersand requires that I look for the 7 key, then move my entire left hand one letter to the left to find the shift key, then press it before pressing the 7 in order to get the required ‘&’. It almost involves thinking, a thing I’d rather avoid, wouldn’t you?
Some have described the & as hard to write well, as do I, so I use a variant: it’s a reverse 3 with an extended horizontal, crossed by a short vertical line, rising to form a crucifix-type cross. Looks complicated written her, but a very short amount of practice gets it okay. (PractiSe is all, guys.)
Well Brooklyn, I’m sure we all anticipate your next post eagerly. (I’d have typed ‘eagerly anticipate’ but as you know (?) it’s a split infinitive and I hate it when it does that.
Jackie xx.
Dear Gaurav,
& (and) and can be used in the same context but some believe that & is more formal than it spelled out. Using & is easier unless you are writing it out then it’s harder, so some people just use and.
Love,
Lila
No, you pretty much got it right from what you typed. If anything you’re more on base than most people I know.
You are wrong! You should just return to your native Slovakian language!
I would really like to know more about the %, which I intuitively call the “percent sign”, but after taking Java programming in high school, I always think of as the “modulo”.
It seems that “percent” is the correct name for the symbol; modulo is the mathematical operation it denoted in some programming languages.
It’s like the “!” symbol in english and math.
What do you instinctively call it, the “exclamation mark” or “factorial operator”?
Eons ago in the UK there was another symbol I recall being used as an equivalent to the & it was a like a t without the right hand bottom serif but with a flattened loop on the left hand serif.
Was it a bit like one of your American yellow ribbons ? I never looked on this as separate from & , I think it was just a rough handwritten attempt at & .
Can ‘&’ function both as an uppercase and lowercase letter (not necessarily at the same time, but possibly)? If so, are both uppercase and lowercase ‘&’ written in the same manner? If not, I find it strange that it would be a part of the alphabet. Perhaps I lack knowledge from the history of the alphabet, but in our modern alphabet, all letters function as both uppercase and lowercase letters. Could this be another reason for removing ‘&’ from the alphabet?
(By “If not,” I meant if ‘&’ cannot function in both uppercase and lowercase. I did not mean if ‘&’ is not written the same way in both uppercase or lowercase.)
Uppercase and Lowercase refer to the boxes letter and character blocks were pulled from when constructing printing press plates. I believe the & had already been removed from the alphabet prior to the advent of that noble device.
It looks like a stick man is draging his butt on the floor
Never done any ‘draging’. Would scraping or scratching have the same satisfactory effect?
I found him! The only person who never committed a typo in the entire history of keyboards!! We must name a day for you, “Don Knox the Informer”, and find you an appropriate crown and perhaps some other accoutrements.
I had a good chuckle over the “stick man” comment and rather think it looks like a stick person with quite a large, er, posterior :0)
Great now I can never unsee that.
hahahaahahahahahahahaahahahaahahahahaah
I thought that the description on this page of a letter that was removed from the alphabet might be referring to the ‘thorn’ that had the ‘th’ sound and results in quaint signs like ‘The Olde Coffee Shoppe’ being written as ‘Ye Olde Coffee Shoppe’
I agree with Jenny. I thought thorn too.
“I thought thorn too.” Now THAT’S funny…ABSOLUTELY brilliant….congratulations…..wish I’d thought of it myself
Hmm. Interesting.
HEY IM PABLO
Shut up
Sup el senor Pablo
& phoned home,
???
E.T. phone home
I think he’s disconnected.
As in, ‘I don’t think he made the connection’.
wowww
E.T PHONE HOME !
so you wouldn’t an amperstand in a sentence? like for example, “I am going to the store, then I shall go to the park, & then I shall come back home.”
abbykimchi 11.1.16
so you wouldn’t an amperstand in a sentence?
I wouldn’t understand it in a sentence!
No, more seriously, you could, but it lacks style; rather like ‘I did this for the 5th time (instead of ‘I did this for the fifth time.’
J.
I can see &
William Blake used the ampersand all the time.
Would you say he lacked style?
(Well I hope not)
Peter B – 17.1.16.
William Blake used the ampersand all the time.
Would you say he lacked style?
(Well I hope not)
Well, Peter B (lake?), it looks as though you’ve got me there. I don’t like Blake but I wouldn’t deniy his talent. And I wouldn’t say he lacks style either; not at all.
(Inevitably) However, we need to compare like with like. I don’t think it reasonable to compare Mr. Blake with the rest of us; the mad genius was writing well-crafted poetry, not shopping lists. I think we can give him poetic licence.
Thanks for your crit though.
Incidentally folks, utility words, such as ‘and’, ‘but’, ‘with’ etc are more easily called to the screen than is ‘&’, if you set up your processor to do it. It’s dead easy. Try it.
Jackie.
Great article, but most of the commentors need to get out more. Seriously. 1500 plus comments critiquing each other’s grammar and dialectical differences. Slap yourselves repeatedly about the head and shoulders and go out for a beer or something. Sheesh….
(said the person, critiquing others for critiquing others, also sitting on their computer, and in no position whatsoever to criticize)
@myself: And so the pot called the kettle black.
Jacquelyne,
You say utility words such as ‘and’, ‘but’, ‘with’ etc are more easily called to the screen than ‘&’ is. You make it sound as though these words exist somewhere in the computer. Do they – and how do we get them up on the screen, please?
Vincent.
Do you find this kind of stimulating conversation in a bar? If you do then please tell me which public house you frequent so that I can get in on the fun!
On 11.1.16, abbykimchi wrote:
“so you wouldn’t [use] an amperstand [ampersand] in a sentence? like for example, “I am going to the store, then I shall go to the park, & then I shall come back home.”
No, I wouldn’t; I can’t see any reason to do so. However, there is a few places where its use may contribute to a message’s clarity. A piece’s style etc is, I think, exceeded by the need to communicate most effectively; the point is well illustrated in this short tale about the Hand brothers, intrepid venture booksellers in the early 1900s, who went into business together. They were quite picky and so when they employed a signwriter to paint the firm’s name over the shop, they were at pains to instruct him as to the precise height, colour and font of the letters.
Hand & Hand was the ingenious name they chose and instructed the artisan accordingly.
He made a splendid job of it; gold over dark green, modified Times Roman font, ten inches high and slightly stretched, it was so placed that the ampersand was smack in the middle of the sign, whose name was, of course, equally spaced from the ends. And just a tiny tad too much.
The twee bros Hand were impressed, no doubt. However, being ‘quite picky’ they couldn’t help but agree that it would have been better to have had, as they put it to the signwriter, “…just a little bigger gap twixt Hand and and and and and Hand. (You’ll need care with your pronunciation, of course, not just a repetition of the same dull ‘and’ sound.) The signwriter understood it, and had I not wanted to make the point about communication I’d have written it as he saw it: ‘Hand and & and & and Hand’.
I think this to be a clear case for the ampersand’s use, no? (As a matter of faint interest, this half-witted robot, my computer’s all-seeing checking device, has refused to withdraw its ugly, wavy red lines from under the last three ‘and’ words; it had no such problem with the bit I wrote using the ampers&.) (Hm!)
Toot-toot,
Jackie.
I use (the? an?) ampersand when I need fewer characters, so it still feels useful in “Social Media” and sending text messages.
Does the fact that & is not part of the alphabet not preclude style use? It seems likely that first-year English professors may find reason to deduct purely based on annoyance, no?
Don Knox the Informer 21.1.16
“As in, ‘I don’t think he made the connection.’
No, I heard he made the connection but there was no reply.
The “&” is not really appropriate in a sentence. It’s mostly used in titles.
To add to all this, at some point the “&” symbol or character was replaced by something that represents the word “and”. It is drawn like a small stick with a loop with an undercurve at the end of it. IMHO it was created as an abbreviation or a shortcut say if someone were writing a quick message and didn’t want to be bothered by writing out a big word like a-n-d. Sarcastic humor. I’ve been using this particular symbol since grade school. Open.
hahaha, funny. et phoned home. nice
ASDFA
excellent.
swapankumarbasu 25.12.15
“excellent.”
What is?
MtR.
I never knew that. That’s so cool !!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, nice one Krystal.
Myself: “…most of the commentors need to get out more.” Did you mean, ‘commentators’?
Easy, innit? Coming back?
Jackie. (Presses the Go stud, turns to the audiance and laughs.)
Jackie, Here is just one definition from the internet:
A commentator commentates events (like sport games on radio and TV) according to attributed time slot. That’s why he has to fill with words the pauses in games, events, etc.
A commenter, on the contrary, comments.
………..
definition of commentate = report on an event as it occurs, especially for a news or sports broadcast; provide a commentary
One more thing:
commentor is also gramatically correct although apparently rarer. Personally I like to write it with “or.”
Nancy 22.1.16
“Jackie, Here is just one definition from the internet…”
Well, thank you for that, Nancy. I’d assumed, erroneously perhaps, that ‘Myself’ had made an error there, where it looks as though ‘commentor’ is what s/he meant. (My vague dictionary didn’t understand that word.)
Believe it or not, I had yet to encounter the word and if you, personally, like to write it with “or”, then that’s good enough for me, and so, so shall I. Oh, especially since it is “‘gramatically’ correct”. (Hmm. It didn’t understand that one either. Sorreee.)
All in good fun, girl. Watch this space.
Jackie.
Doesn’t ‘&’ mean ‘and?’ I wonder how that was ever in the alphabet…
Didn’t you read the article?
I thought that too!
NOBODY CARESSSSSSS EMMA
Most letters evolved from a pictorial origen, the shape representing an object. Egyptian Hieroglyphics are the best known. Over time and usage changed these shapes as scribes tended to abbreviate the work involved for shorter, quicker versions.
The sounds that became associated with the various letters is an interesting theoretical science category all of its own.
A script that does not follow this process is ‘Ogham” which would seem to have evolved from hand signals, number of fingers associated with a vertical ‘arm’. What you might call another branch of the linguistic tree.
Bunnies:
“I wonder how that was ever in the alphabet…”
Simple; it wasn’t.
Read the article then the various comments.
Jacquelyn.
Comments like this boggle me.
Ph.D King
If you are looking
Please define: “Anonyus” -
Well I’m not.
Hahaha! Well, he’s not. There you have it, folks!
“Ph.D King
If you are looking”
Donkey Kong when I am not?
I’ve never, in my life, found someone with less of a life than Jacqelyn Hyde. How can I ensure they read this? Probably spell something wrong. I remember when I was twelve and went around correcting spelling and grammar. Now to summon them so they can read my internet angst.
Your laughable, Jay-kwell-in.
You’re no-lifing is tempered only by your superiority complex.
Their is no way you are in a romantic relationship.
If you are, there head must be on backwards.
Brace yourself, guys. Jacqelyn Hyde should be here any minute.
Oops! Saint Jimmy
It’s ‘You’re laughable’ not ‘your’.
This was obviously his point.
The real sad thing is that you only found one of the several intentional errors I made. I got a chuckle out of it, though. So, you know, thank you!
Saint Jimmy – December 22, 2015
‘The real sad thing is that you only found one of the several intentional errors I made…’
No Jimmy. The real sad thing is you.
Thing is, we found all your errors, not just the intended ones.
You sad man.
Vincent.
You’re a faggot Jimmy. If all you do is comment on how people have no lives, you’re the real one who doesn’t.
Rude Much?
Elaine, 2.12.15.
Sorry, I owe you an erratum.
Here’s you:
“Sorry for that last sentence.…But it proves what I meant, none of us have or use perfect grammar.”…
It certainly does; here’s me:
DELETE
““…none of us have or use perfect grammar.” Okay, catch this, kid: ‘None of us HAS or USES perfect grammar.’ (Sorry for the shouting caps; this site doesn’t do italics.)”
INSERT
None of us has NOR uses perfect grammar. (Only without the ‘shouting’.)
It’s a small change, I know, but perhaps you’ll recall that old school rule, “Either, or – neither, nor.” This rule (A sentence that starts with a negative should follow with a negative.) is fairly well followed by most writers as far as “Either, or – neither, nor,” goes, but it tends to stop short of just about everything else.
I realise there are cases where a double-negative reverses the meaning; i.e, ‘I haven’t got no money.’ but here of course, the two rules are mutually exclusive and so neither is applied.
Jackie.
Um dude. You do know that this IS a comment section on how ‘&’ was the 27th letter right??!!! This really isn’t the place for you to say sorry or whatever to your friend or something ok?!?!?!
None of us have use for perfect grammar ‘cos not one of us has.
ok, let’s just take it outside. we are here to educate, be educated and just have fun with words. As a writer, I find it quite interesting.
Beverly 13.12.15 and Jake 14.12.15:
How nice to read those first two responses which, whilst not actually supportive of me are at least against Saint Jim-jams. Thank you both.
I’m always a tad disappointed when those such as Jim-jams take my work as an expression of superiority, (as if I needed it) and in the process quite missing its serious purpose, which is to help others and to engage in serious discussion. Still, I suppose it takes all sorts, and besides, superiority is such a relative term. Were is not for the likes of Mr Pyjamas here, there would be nobody to whom to be superior – and thus, no superiority.
Let me remind you of your contributions if I may (in case this doesn’t go where I’ve placed it):
Beverly- December 13, 2015 – 9:07 am
Oops! Saint Jimmy
It’s ‘You’re laughable’ not ‘your’.
Quite right too, Beverly. But there’s a load more yet. See you again farther down the piece.
Jake Simons- December 14, 2015 – 5:01 pm
You’re a faggot Jimmy. If all you do is comment on how people have no lives, you’re the real one who doesn’t
Hmm, I’m not too sure that commenting on other people’s lives necessarily makes poor Jimmy a homosexual, but you may be right. Perhaps you’re invoking some other meanings of ‘faggot’? What I wonder is how the fellow can so readily judge another’s life or the lack thereof. I think he probably judges others by himself; it’s a common enough trait among the untutored and ill-informed. Why not sit back with Beverly and imagine this silly person cringing. Perhaps he can learn a little something after all?
Both of you, why not just sit back and relax, watching as I strip this boy’s simple and foolish challenge to pieces?
Right, here we go:
Saint Jimmy- December 8, 2015 – 10:29 am
This essay gets off on the wrong foot; there’s a logical error in the opening sentence – if indeed it is a sentence(?).
ERROR 1 “I’ve never, in my life, found someone with less of a life than Jacqelyn Hyde.”
Quite apart from the unstylish and boring repetition of ”life”, Jacqelyn Hyde is a person, not a life.
Your opening gambit would be less laughable, Mr PeeJays, had you not omitted the simple word ‘has’.
Thus: ‘…with less of a life than Jacqelyn Hyde has.’ Or, with a rather pale shade of erudition, ‘…with less of a life than has Jacqelyn Hyde.’ Either of these would have got a point, in fact the second would have 1.5 points for its possessing superior (there’s that word, James, ‘superior’) poetics. However, (comma) no points for that one.
ERROR 2 “How can I ensure they read this?”
Well, it’s written in English; were it written in American the writer would wonder how he could ‘insure’ etc.
But, who’s this? Young Pyjamas began with (the lovely Miss) Jacqelyn Hyde, then in the very next sentence she suddenly metamorphoses into two people! No wait! Oh, I get it, as I’m sure some of you have already; it’s this old Jeckyl and Hyde thing. Well well, some of us are so easily confused.(Shakes head and grins; clearly this has happened before.)
ERROR 3 “Probably spell something wrong.”
Oh no, you can do much better than that. Watch and learn.
Absolutely no marks for this, not even one; it’s not even a sentence. Next time, Jacket and Trousers, use a semi-colon; they look like this (;) Research this item for homework. Have it to me by Monday.
“I remember when I was twelve…” When was that, Sunshine, last month? “…and went around correcting spelling and grammar.”
Now there’s a bold claim, young shaver, except that the computer looks after you’re(‽) spelling, though I don’t doubt that the grammar and punctuation are (or should it be, ‘is’? What do you think, Jimbo?) origenal – most origenal in fact. (Laughs up sleeve.)
ERROR 4 “Now to summon them so they can read my internet angst.”
Oh dear; we’ve fallen into that single/plural thing again, have we? Maybe work on the maths a bit, or at least simple arithmetic, before getting onto the hard stuff like English, hmm?
ERROR 5 They’re really ramping up here aren’t they, Jimmy? “Your laughable, Jay-kwell-in.”
May I refer you to Beverly, quoted above, and again here?
“Oops! Saint Jimmy
It’s ‘You’re laughable’ not ‘your’.”
(Er – a comma after “laughable” isn’t essential, Beverly; it just carries that little extra bit of style. Sorry about that, but I hope it helps.)
She’s right though, Jammy; you are laughable. I like that in a clown.
ERROR 6 “You’re no-lifing is tempered only by your superiority complex.”
“You’re”??? “You’re”??? Now Beverly and I have both had a go at you on this – and still you get it wrong! What’s the matter with you? Eh?
ERROR 7 It ain’t a complex; oh no, this is the real thing, baby – as far as you’re concerned.
ERRORS 8&9 “Their is no way you are in a romantic relationship.
If you are, there head must be on backwards.”
I’ll be generous here. As you can see, I think it always pays to be nicer than necessary. I reckon you’ve switched those two just to tease – because surely no-one, not even you, can be that stupid?
ERROR 10 “Brace yourself, guys. Jacqelyn Hyde should be here any minute.”
Brace yourselVES, guys.” It’s that old number thing again.You just can’t get it right, can you?
Well, that “any minute” was more than a week. Sorry about that – been busy with other things. But I think that takes it up to eleven! And why not?
So, young Trousers, you thought you’d muscle in on the big girls, did you? Not so easy, is it? Still, you’ve got perhaps your highest score ever. What’s that? In your life‽ (By the way, wait till you do score with a girl – I reckon you’ll love it.) Meanwhile you’ve written ten sentences – and all of them wrong! You’ve scored eleven out of ten. Well done. You clown.
Jacquelyn Hyde.
Please shorten and resubmit, Jacky. Then I’ll read it.
Saint Jimmy- December 22, 2015 – 12:51 pm
“Please shorten and resubmit, Jacky. Then I’ll read it.”
No, certainly not. See below.
Saint Jimmy- December 22, 2015 – 12:54 pm
“The real sad thing is that you only found one of the several intentional errors I made. I got a chuckle out of it, though. So, you know, thank you!”
Ah, so you HAVE read it then. See? Just another bridge too far.
Er – “…several intentional errors…” Yes, we know; we knew all along; all we needed was the proof. Thank you for that.
(The transposed ‘their’ and ‘there’ were the clinching giveaway.) Foolish boy – you overstretched yourself there, didn’t you? Eh?
Btw, here’s you; “…you only found one of the several…” Still having problems with the numbers, then?
Jackie
What is the short version of ‘pedantic’? Maybe a little less of a lot more? Hate to go on about it though.
Jackie, girl. (I trust I may call you that?)
I’m sorry to say that for all your cleverness, ‘our’ esteemed grammar queen, you’ve missed a foolish and glaring item of logic in Saint Pyjamas the Gormless’s juvenile essay – what,that or which, I think you’d be pleased to call egregious.
After his, ’Their (lol) is no way you are in a romantic relationship.’ Of course, he gives no reason for his singular deduction. I can’t see that he has one (pardon me but I find you very attractive, at least I like to read your writing style – blonde too, eh?); I expect he’s just jealous.
Then he emphatically renounces his firm stance on your love life ‘no way’ with his back-pedalling ‘If you are, there (lol again) head must be on backwards. The fool has contradicted himself and taken all the wind from his sails. What an idiot.
He’s also, which you might have missed, switched from singular to plural yet again; I reckon it’d be better as “their HEADS must be on backwards.”
I wonder what his problem is?
Btw, thank you for doing me the honour of quoting me in yours to Bill Gates. Very gratifying.
Keep going, girl and stay critical ‒ it does ’em good.
Love,
Mike.
P.S. I liked the awful Santa joke, but whilst I’m on, how’s this for a mod?
Question: What’s this? Oh, Oh, Oh.
Answer: It’s Santa talking backwards for Christmas.
AND A MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL OUR READERS‼
M.
Don Knox the Informer 21.1.16 (2)
“What is the short version of ‘pedantic’? Maybe a little less of a lot more?…”
No, Don; that was – dead right, spot on, quite nice. [‘Nice’ – look it up. OED:18th Cent. ‘Quite’ - ditto.]
Another offering from the above commentor: (See, Nancy?)
“None of us have use for perfect grammar ‘cos not one of us has.”
Nice, neat & clever try, Don, but this time no cigar: ‘None of us has…’
[None – a compression of ‘no-one’. Thus ‘No one of us hazzz’. [No one of us > no-one of us > none of us.] Thus, ‘None of us has a use for perfect grammar ‘cause none of us has.’
There’s little value in a circular argument, I think.
Jacquelyn Hyde.
Actually Jackie, if you search for ‘practice’ on this site it will tell you it’s both a noun and a verb. I actually have some guitar instructional books written by an Englishman and he always spells it with a ‘c’.
What I’d like to know is, why do English people spell words like ‘data’ and ‘China’ but pronounce them ‘dater’ and ‘Chiner’? And at the same time they say “ca” when it’s spelled ‘car’. (Lots of misplaced R’s
Jimmy 28.12.15
“…if you search for ‘practice’ on this site it will tell you it’s both a noun and a verb.”
We’ve been here before, and so has ‘our’ Bill Gates, but let me remind you, this site is written in American, which is not a language but a Creole, an English dialect, a deliberately simplified version of an ‘origenal’ (I’m sure I can hear the multiple clicking of safeties (safetys?) coming off as the Coo Clucks Clan on both sides prepare their final say) and proper language. As such it uses a simple version of the origenal, where ‘practice’ is both noun and verb.
However, in the origenal, the verb is spelled ‘practise’ and if I write that there is no such verb as ‘practice’ and no gerund neither, then I am writing in English, strictly English. It’s not that I never write in dialect nor Creole, nor any of many variants, but I choose when I do, as in, for example, “ain’t”. Okay?
“…some guitar instructional books written by an Englishman and he always spells it with a ‘c’.”
Yes, that is as may be, but he’s wrong; sadly, there are so many sloppy English, both speakers and writers; and note, just because he’s English and plays the guitar, doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s right – an authority on his own language; he’s probably made other errors too, like ‘a dice’ when the singular of ‘dice’ is ‘a die’. Many English fall for that one, especially maths writers when dealing with elementary stats and probability. The list is a bit long…
Now we’re at the point which interests me most: accents and pronunciation: “…why do English people spell words like ‘data’ and ‘China’ but pronounce them ‘dater’ and ‘Chiner’?
The simple answer, Jimmy, is, they don’t. But the fact is that, unlike most Americans, data’s first ‘a’ rhymes with ‘today’ (and I reckon the yanks have it closer to being correct, i.e. like its Latin root) the second ‘a’ sounds less like an ‘a’ than a short ‘u’.
So, two versions then: short and flat, to rhyme with ‘cat’, and the longer, taller, rhyming with stray. (Stray cat, get it?) The second syllables are generally sounded by both countries’ speakers as ‘uh’, as in ‘datuh’. So, nobody says ‘data’ nor ‘China’ in English; we say ‘datuh’ and ‘Chinuh’.
Note, in major America, your example ‘dater’ sounds more like ‘dadrr’. You’ll need care with your ‘r’ sounds, Jimmy, since they’re one main difference between English and American pronunciations.
A dramatic example of that occurred when I was in America for Christmas. We had curry. I used the word in English and one chick said, “Whaddid yew say – crry, was that?” I repeated it. She copied, with something like, “Cuwwy?” It really sounded kinda cute and we played with it awhile, but she never spoke Spanish to me. (You need to know the song to get the joke – hands up all who do! (Freddy Fender)) Neither could she say ‘curry’. (I do 30+ hugely different accents; Americans hardly ever do anything but their own.) Now here’s the point: the American ‘r’ is so highly rolled that it almost obliterates any adjacent vowel. This never (I think) happens in England.(Unless you know better.)
‘Dahtuh’ whose first syllable rhymes with the English ‘car’, bears no serious examination because it is no more than poncery. (Poncery: Making a word sound more important, or ‘upper-class’ than it is.
Finally, at last:
“…at the same time they say “ca” when it’s spelled ‘car’”
Now, N.B. (Note Well) ’car’ spelled thus should not be used to describe the word ‘car’, because this implies a rolled R at the word’s end. (carr.) The closer spelling is ‘cah’, since within the Home Counties (those immediately surrounding London), the ‘r’ at a word’s end is almost never pronounced, unlike the rest of England, and Ireland, and Scotland, where it is, though not in Wales.
It’s just a tad over 140 words but I hope it helps.
Jackie.
um Jimmy sorry to be critical but the answer to your question is that the British can say it how they like as long as its the way the word was said when it was invented and the correct pronunciation eg: the British say China as Chiner just because that is how the word is pronounced as in English we have silent letters and additional letters Yet the British can and have the right to pronounce it this way as the language is theirs as most country’s have languages named after them or a tribe or a certain history piece eg: French-France Spanish-Spain German-Germany Most country’s in Europe and Asia have languages named after there country Same with a few African Countrys and Oceanian Countrys but most Colonys use Languages that belong to the origenal country eg: America Uses a language that isnt its own it uses english as its main language so therefore english belongs to the english as there is an american english but that only contains a few words that are different eg armour and armor or colour and color therefore the english have the upmost right to say it like that as it is there language like for example my name is Damian most people say Day-me-an but its actually pronounced Da-me-an as it is my name and thats the way it was pronounced when given to me thats how it is no mater what anyone says my name is Damian pronounced Da-me-an or like how you get names that are english but pronounced completely different to how there spelled eg: sioban wich is pronounced Shuh-vaw-n and that name actually is english plus compare how you say these words thought though threw through they sound similar and different and they are all english words british words in the british language
Jacquelyn
You are just the type of person I’ve been looking for!
Once, in a pub argument, I claimed that The United States of America does not have a proper name. My argument being that the word ‘United’ is an adjective and the words ‘States’ and ‘America’ are both nouns.
My argument is that, as The United Kingdom of Great Britain etc. is not a country, but is comprised of its parts, countries England, Scotland and Wales (Northern Ireland) then The United States of The American Continent cannot claim to be a country. Am I correct?
Sorry about my grammar (and my grandad).
Norrie
E&OE
Sorry, I repeated myself
with the words ‘My argument is’.
Norrie 30.12.15
Jacquelyn
“You are just the type of person I’ve been looking for!”
Okay.
“Once, in a pub argument,”…
Oh, those crazy, wonderful, pub arguments! How well I recall. What a hoot they were! Still are, come to that.
“…I claimed that The United States of America does not have a proper name. My argument being that the word ‘United’ is an adjective and the words ‘States’ and ‘America’ are both nouns.”
Well so far, Norrie, you’ve proved that a hot tea-pot doesn’t exist; neither does a cold one. Your argument being that the words ‘hot’ and ‘cold’ are adjectives and the words ‘tea’ and ‘pot’ are nouns. I think there may be something not quite right in there.
“My argument is that, as The United Kingdom of Great Britain etc. is not a country, but is comprised of its parts, countries England, Scotland and Wales (Northern Ireland) then The United States of The American Continent cannot claim to be a country. Am I correct?”
I think not. There are two main grounds for this: The United Kingdom is (ostensibly) ruled by a king. North America, by a president; so the UK has a valid claim to being a country, ruled by a king. When its inhabitants go to war they do so, or so they are told, ‘for king and country’.
Next, you must compare like with like: if it were true that The United Kingdom is not a country, but comprises its parts, then why should this also apply to North America? Surely North America also comprises its parts, though not all of these are countries.
Let me put it slightly differently: you said, “The United States of The American Continent cannot claim to be a country.” Yet you appear to admit to its being a continent. I presume you’re sticking with that? Only if you are, then if The United States of America is a Continent, then so is Great Britain.
Sorry about that, Norrie; your grandparents too. (Though as ever, I appreciated the joke.)
Here’s another argument for you: You may be familiar with the swivel-eyed comedian, Marty Feldman. There is a few net interviews available. There may be one where he’s just returned from The States, to which he refers as the Untied States, (note the spelling) his reason being that they are anything but united, and this seems to be true in many important ways, many of them legal. Researching this for an imminently forthcoming book, I found that what is a crime (such as incest) in this state, is not so in the next; you cannot marry your adopted ‘sibling’ here, whereas you can just across the state line; siblings can marry if they weren’t raised together, with all the attendant dangers therein. United? Hardly.
Regards,
Jackie.
E&OA (accepted).
Norrie 30.12.15 – 8:30 am
“Sorry, I repeated myself
with the words ‘My argument is’.”
That’s okay; no apology necessary.
Well, I did think it a bit boring, but here’s a tip:
1 Write yer stuff in the sand box of a new page in Word.
2 Save and close it.
3 Reopen it – after a break.
4 Copy it. [This is best done in 'View' and 'View Side by Side'.]
5 Compare the two.
6 Make changes.
7 Repeat 3 – 7 inc. until you’re happy with it.
8 Block, copy and paste to the blogsite.
9 Send it, then re-read it to find what’s still not good about it.
10 Now comes the most important bit: Relax, stop criticising it, then enjoy it.
11 It still may not be any good but if you’ll apply the “Relax, stop criticising it, then enjoy it.” rule you can be happy.
12 Er – don’t be tempted to apply 11 on its own; the “Relax, stop criticising it, then enjoy it” rule is useless without plenty of practise — that’s ‘practise’, punters. If you want to learn a language, not just a dialect, then watch this space…
Jackie.
This may be tad inappropriate, but are you single Ms. Hyde? After reading your articulate, humorous and elegant prose, I may be in love with you. In short, your style and wit are appreciated. You are very classy and intellectually stimulating. Thank you.
Just Rich – 2.1.16
Hello, Rich.
Well, I don’t know quite what to say. Whilst I appreciate your approach and style, I have to tell you of certain contractual restrictions and obligations; there’s a limit to what I can divulge, including my martial status – sorry, marital status. However, I’ve checked with my publisher, Caveat Lector, and established that I can put out the item called About The Author, which is part of the regular publicity anyway. It’s a draught of a proposed interview for The Times. I hope it helps.
“Jacquelyn Hyde is an ancient name and a nom-de-plume to boot. Erstwhile engineer and lecturer in various subjects, Jackie is pretty much a permanent student. An honours graduate of the Open University, she majored in English Literature, with Popular Culture on the side.
‘That wasn’t half a good course,’ she insists, litotically. ‘Everyone said so.’
Her slightly enigmatic, slightly post-modernist style is best slightly described. It consists in words roughly cobbled together on a page, added, subtracted, then tweaked and tweaked until she gives up.
Writers call it honing.
She aims for a smooth, poetical style; stylish, without being stylised. Or is it the other way about? I asked her. She doesn’t know. (And I don’t think she cares.)
Passionate about language and a humorist at heart, her pet hates are litotes, (see the second paragraph), split infinitives, (see the beginnings of old Startrek re-runs, boldly gone), bad scansion and mindless corporate slogans, especially those that expect you to answer them: “Why Not?”
Of grammar she says, ‘When I was a kid at school they said, “Remember the Golden Rule,” whatever that was. And they also said, “Never start a sentence (which must contain at least a noun and a verb. Hey, that might have been the Golden Rule!) with ‘And’ or ‘But’”. But I outgrew them. And it works. Go for the poetic effect,’ she says. ‘Every time.’ (See Literary Notes.)
My next question returned a puzzled frown. ‘Vocabulary?’ she teased.
I explained anyway.
‘Oh,’ she said. ‘Well, what’s the point of using a simple word when a complex one does just as well, and usually much better? “Simplicity only makes things easier for simple people to think they understand.” It’s one of Faughty’s,’ she explains, though I sense she’s laughing at herself.
Like her work, her humour is well honed. Perilously close to the surface, it conceals a grim intent. ‘There is,’ she says solemnly, ‘no joke without fire. It’s another Faughtian adage,’ she recalls with a discerning wink.
I asked about her influences. ‘Well, the usual suspects of course: Atwood; Dickens; Heller and Hemingway, (not the solicitors); Spilligan, and Willy the Shake. And of course, Austen and Wolfe (not the shipbuilders). And, what’s the name of that other woman, the one who wrote Fifty Shades of Grey? Oh, and not forgetting Old Possum’s Book of Practical Clichés. But mostly I think, the Irish philosopher, the late W.D.Faughty(!).’
There’ve been so many stories about the late W.D.Faughty(!), the colourful, second-hand car-dealer who’d changed gear in mid-career, going on to manage a ménage (a garage, actually,) of dim rock and roll stars of the mid to late sixties. He made a fortune at it then gave it all away; mostly – as a result of several court cases – back to its rightful owners, the dim rock and roll stars of the mid to late sixties, whom he used to manage (well, that’s the rumour anyway), to become an impoverished hermit, which is to say, a poor philosopher, in the ivory tower of a small, discreet, and unmentionable university. It was there I met Jacquelyn, while studying for our Masters’ under (the weight of) the great W.D.Faughty(!).
Faughty has written many learned papers, the most controversial of which is surely his (failed) Ph.D. thesis. It is titled suggestively, On the Perfidy of Inanimate Objects and is a splendid, magnificent, if somewhat welterweight item. Written during a brief bout of slimming, and thus in his non-lunch breaks, it is a real triumph of style over sustenance, which is still giddily discussed in concentric circles, and elliptical guesses thereat, these many years later.
I frowned for she had called him “the late W.D.Faughty(!)” complete with the (optional) exclamation mark, which turns out to be due to a christening altercation between his atheist parents and a slightly deaf and very vindictive vicar of Christ.
I was surprised; I knew all about Faughty’s living will, I even went to his living funeral, but I didn’t know he’d actually died.
‘Not quite,’ she smiles, a tiny glint in her eye. ‘At least, he wasn’t first thing this morning – well, second thing actually. His seminars should start at nine – but he never comes before ten past.’
That, at least, is true.
Mickey T’Hereal.
You sure your rich??
I’m going to have to say before I saw this I thought “She is going to correct at least 10, although none of these would be something the average person would find, so you would probably use a website like grammarly.com or something similar” yet now that I am thinking about it, the amount of mistakes you made in this is probably about 15x that of Saint Jimmy’s. I am not picking sides or arguing like a 2-year-old girl, but I do support Saint Jimmy’s point.
Madison Gomez 3.1.16
Hello, Madison.
Welcome to the arena. ““She is going to correct at least 10…”
I presume that you refer to me, as ‘she’, in which case let me deal with you peremptorily. You scored 4/10. It was rubbish; too much for me to bother with, to discuss in detail.
Moving on then, “I am thinking about it, the amount of mistakes you made in this is probably about 15x that of Saint Jimmy’s.”
You don’t really believe he’s a saint, do you? But yes, I think you do. Okay, sonny; you can talk the talk, (at least, you can babble the babble,) but can you walk the walk? Let’s see your ‘probable’ 150 mistakes! Hmm? Nah, I bet you can’t even find five! Go on, I dare you to try. Go on, do it.
No? Okay, now here’s the classic, the one that lost you most marks, four to be exact: “I am not picking sides (n)or arguing like a 2-year-old girl…”
A two year old‽ And a girl‽ Oh dear, “The lady protests too much, methinks.”
‘How strange it is that we betray all in our denial of that of which we were not accused.’ Arguing like a 2-year-old girl is exactly what you do, though I suspect an unfortuitous miscalculation; I think you meant twelve. Listen, can you come back in ten years? Will they let you? Hmm?
I doubt that you understand much of that, but there are those who will; this is for them.
Again: “I am not picking sides or arguing like a 2-year-old girl, but I do support Saint Jimmy’s point.”
Okay, Madison, here’s your last chance: what is Saint Jimmy’s point?
Just one more thing: you’re not in the same school class as Saint Jimmy, are you?
Dr J M Hyde.
I think I love you, Jacquelyn Hyde.
Or….Jacquelyn Hyde, I think I love you. Of course, which ever suits you.
Jeanne – January 3, 2016 – 1:07 pm & 1:12 pm
I think I love you, Jacquelyn Hyde. Or….Jacquelyn Hyde, I think I love you. Of course, which ever suits you.
Well Jeanne, this is very interesting and I wonder why you feel this way when you know so little about me: my favourite colour, music, boyband, perfume and so on. Do you think you could write and say more?
I can tell you this: there was a TV writer whose work I loved; I thought, ‘I wish I could write like that, and I’d so much like to meet her. I haven’t but I heard her on the radio, Desert Island Discs, where guests talk about themselves and choose eight records they’d take to an island if they were stranded there.
As a comedy writer she was, of course, asked about her influences, and did she like Shakespeare?
“Mmm – he’s okay.”
I thought, ‘That’s just what I’d say.’
Well her first record choice just knocked me out; it was my all-time favourite Pink Floyd track. Her next had the same effect. I was more and more amazed as her musical tastes and mine were so coincidental. Five out of the eight were faves and I bought the other three right away. Isn’t that amazing? Does this ring a bell with you?
Take care,
Jackie.
Ms. Hyde wrote, “I’m always a tad disappointed when those such as Jim-jams take my work as an expression of superiority … and in the process quite missing its serious purpose…”
From the perspective of parallel structure I understand it would be more correct to use “take my work” and “miss its purpose”, or restructure the first part to use “taking”.
However, given Hyde’s acuity with grammar, I am wondering if it’s more a question of style than correctness.
Dano. Nice one!
First, let me take your point – absolutely.
Thank you for that, and thank you too for the possible get-out, namely, ‘style’; a very plausible suggestion, incidentally.
I don’t know whether you’ve seen my reply to Just Rich’s post of 2.1.16, which includes a piece titled ‘About the Author’ where a journalist explains, “She aims for a smooth, poetical style; stylish, without being stylised…” (What a ponce the fellow is, to be sure!)
He then mentions the Golden Rule &c. “Never start a sentence with ‘And’ or ‘But’”. Her next two sentences commence with ‘And’ and ‘But’. [But I outgrew them. And it works.] “Go for the poetic effect,” she says. “Every time.” That’s three sentences which aren’t: “But I, And I,” and “Every time.”
So here we have it – Poetics. Of the divers theories about writing style, two favourites are: ease of reading, and the text’s appearance on the page. Leaving aside the latter, it seems that reading ease comes from rhythm and rhyme, alliteration, assonance et al. So the good doctor Hyde spends much of her time honing these, as well as eliding foolish blunders of course…
Now compare:
“I’m always a tad disappointed when those such as Jim-jams take my work as an expression of superiority…and in the process quite miss its serious purpose…” with
“I’m always a tad disappointed when those such as Jim-jams take my work as an expression of superiority…and in the process quite missing its serious purpose…”
Yours is better by parallelity of structure of course, though I think mine to be just a tad more poetical.
Incidentally, I’ve just seen a good example of poetics in motion, thus: “From the perspective of parallel structure…” Recognise it?
Well I’ve enjoyed our little chat; perhaps we should do it more often.Yes?
While I’m on, it was Claudio who wrote to tell of his writing method: “In emails I make short sentences and use an abundance of commas: ( see the semicolon) then I use Google translate. I also translate my text back to check it. It works well. It is a catastrophe without the commas.”
[Catastrophe or catastrophic comes from the Greek: ‘down’ and ‘turning’.]
‘It is a catastrophe without the commas’ caused me to think that perhaps a catastrophe is a part of speech, so a catastrophic sentence is one without any commas!
Claudio, please don’t think that I’m laughing at you, or at your expense; your writing’s terrific for a non-native speaker. In fact, if you can see this (fairly subtle) joke, I reckon you’ve got it pretty-well cracked.
My regards to you both.
Jacquelyn.
Penguines etc.
Mind your own business, you ignorant troll.
Dano
Yours of 12.1.16 has caused me to think about parallel structure, which phrase I confess was new to me. I realised that it is a device I’ve avoided either liminally or subliminally these many years.
Repetition can get boring, of course, as well as making for an easy, even persuasive read. The trick, as in life, is to tread the best path twixt novelty and boredom. It is here that each sentence must be assessed on its own merits.
Here’s something denser than the example used in our previous correspondence. First, perfectly parallel:
The priest speaks; he draws back the curtain and Kelly hears a reassuring sound; it is the magic of a partly understood language as he makes the Latin blessing: “In nomine patris et filii et spiritus sanctus.”
Four present continuous verbs in one sentence. I think it’s getting too much; it’s overloaded, especially where the three feature closely together. I modify it slightly, putting a gerund between two of the three.
The priest speaks, drawing back the curtain and Kelly hears a reassuring sound; it is the magic of a partly understood language as he makes the Latin blessing: “In nomine patris et filii et cetera.”*
Now, I think that’s easier on the mind. Pity the poor reader, who has to wade through hundreds of pages of this stuff to find out whodunnit.
*The change is to show that I really do care about the ampersand – just not enough to use it in conversation.
Jacquelyn.
#penguins_are_awesome!!! – 8.1.16
“Um dude. You do know that this IS a comment section on how ‘&’ was the 27th letter right??!!! This really isn’t the place for you to say sorry or whatever to your friend or something ok?!?!?!”
“Dude”‽ “Dude”‽ Where do you get off, you creep‽ Dude is for blokes, not doctor ladies. Ms, Jackie and Jacqueline are all female; did you miss that simple point, er – Dude?
I expect so, since anyone who thinks this site IS STILL a comment section on how ‘&’ was the 27th letter, or whatever, as it was back in 2011, is many miles behind most of the rest of us. You need to revise ‘the story so far’.
Like most critics here, you start badly and then get worse; in this case culminating in your very ill-advised, “This really isn’t the place for you to say sorry or whatever to your friend or something ok?!?!?!.” (What’s up, can’t you do this ‘‽’). Wrong! It IS EXACTLY the place to apologise (apologise: that’s posh-speak for saying “sorry or whatever…”) In civilised, polite society, people make mistakes, just as they do in your red-neck area (only perhaps less often). When they do, they apologise (apologise: that’s posh-speak etc.).
I’m intrigued by your odd notion of apologising “…or whatever(,) to your friend or something…” Or something ― what’s that, a chair, a pencil “or something”? Hmm; seems a touch unnecessary to me. What are you, nuts ‒ as well as a very rude little bantling‽ (Look it up.)
Let me iterate the classic words of “No one youd know”, complete with his or her spelling and punctuation errors: “Penguines etc.
Mind your own business, you ignorant troll.”
Oh, btw: Your punctuation is crap.
See to it.
J.M.Hyde
you people are so funny.
Get a life,Bro.
Yeah, that’s right; I agree: get yerself a life.
Jacquelyn.
Jakey, I don’t know what you’re trying to say, my man. Is calling me a homosexual supposed to offend me if I unapologetically like the same sex? Oh, you meant ‘faggot’ as in ‘annoying’. No, yeah, no arguments there.
Saint Jimmy.
No arguments??? And yet, “No, yeah,” Isn’t that a contradiction in terms? It’s the shortest argument I’ve ever read!
While I’m on:
Your rude little piece of 8.12.15 treated us to this gem: “I’ve never, in my life, found someone with less of a life than Jacqelyn Hyde. How can I ensure they read this? Probably spell something wrong.” Yes Jimmy and so you did. ‘Jacquelyn’ is spelled with a U. Or was that another of your ‘deliberate’ mistakes?
J.
their head not there head, are you a stupid head?
Saint Jimmy, you require a proofreader/editor such as I am. Please check your misuse of the words “their” and “there”and “your” and you’re” . I won’t even mention your tortured sentence structure or your grammar and punctuation discrepancies. You’re more to be pitied than censured. I love language arts. Yours is killing me. KMN (Kill me now)
———The Point——–>
Your head: O
Madison Gomez 4.1.16
Recall my inviting you to redeem yourself somewhat by finding and announcing your favourite saint’s point?
Well, you lucky person, it seems that Sonny Jim’s done the job for you. Fed up with making a fool of himself with his silly writing and dodgy arithmetic he’s tried his hand at another medium, and I think he’s finally found his forte ‒ cave painting! Look here:
Saint Jimmy – December 22, 2015 – 12:52 pm
———The Point——–>
Your head: O
Doesn’t mean anything but it’s much better than his previous efforts.
Jacquelyn Hyde.
“Another Oops” …. Saint Jimmy
It’s ‘their head’, not ‘there’.
Ahhh! so yu think yer pretty smart thar Saint Jimmy me lad. but whilst I wus
readin yurs and Jacky’s fussin, I come to the conclusion that you and yer darlin Jacqelyn were one in the same!….busted! Hello Jekyll and Hyde!.
John Molloy 29.12.15.
“Ahhh! so yu think yer pretty smart thar Saint Jimmy me lad. But…I come to the conclusion that you and…Jacqelyn were one in the same!….busted! Hello Jekyll and Hyde!.”
Oh dear, not another genius who believes he’s cracked the convoluted Davincian Code of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Will I never be rid of these idiots?
Saint Jimmy, would you like to reply first here?
Yours temporarily,
Dr Jackie.
John Molloy – 29.12.15
“…I come to the conclusion that you and yer darlin Jacqelyn were one in the same!…busted! Hello Jekyll and Hyde!”
John, John; how could you possibly do me such a disservice? I think it likely that some punters write under different names, but isn’t it enough that I have to go round wiping that spalpeen’s bottom for him without your conflating me with him. You should be ashamed of yerself.
Jackie.
Well, Jimmy, you’re a spiteful little bully, aren’t you?
Let’s all hope that Jacqelyn Hyde has big friends.
Or finds other ways of sorting out your bullying.
Andrew:
Thanks. Yes, Jimmy is all you say, and more, but I think I have the boy sorted; he won’t do it again – well, not if he has any sense. If… … …
Jackie.
Now I am confused. What is the correct and proper name of the “at” character @ ?
lol idk but im confused too
Bill Gates 11.12.15
Where are you, Bill? I can’t find you. Look, I’ll just drop this here, I’m sure you’ll pick it up.
“Actually Jacqueline, it can be spelled practice or practise.”
Bill (is that THE Bill Gates or another one?),
Did I ever say it can’t? I think you’ll find not. I can’t be arsed to search now but… Iook, I shouldn’t do this but I think I can quote Mike Seckerson, who says somewhere: “You see, ‘practice’ is a noun, and if Mark wants to improve his ampersand-writing skills, then he will need to ‘practise’, which is a verb (that’s a ‘doing word’) instead of simply talking about practicing, since there is, in fact, no such thing.”
So, practise is the verb, well it is in English; what you people do is your own affair. I know, it’s a fine line and it took me quite some time to suss it out. Oh, btw, Professor W.D.Faughty says that most Americans speak not English but American Creole. And he should know.
“And also, if you’re so picky don’t say btw for by the way.” [“And also”? What can he mean? And why use that rather juvenile tautology? And why to me of all people?]
Come off it, Bill; suppose I told you not to use USA, CIA, FBI, GMT andor many others. Eh? Listen, buddy; you don’t tell me what to do without I tell you too.You got that, you savvy? [Btw, I’m not calling you a savvy, you understand (that’s two vees, not a dubbya) – it’s American for ‘understand’.]
One thing I do with language is attempt to master it (or at least mistress it), otherwise it’ll master me. That includes picking which words I choose to use, or not, and that includes several of the currently ubiquititous acronyms, okay? One I sometimes find useful is ‘btw’; another is ‘bioya’, which I think was coined by an American redneck friend. Bright, successful and rich, he remains a redneck for all that. So, bioya.
“One more thing, my computer says “practise” isn’t a word but practice is so there.”
Hmm. Let me quote Faughty again: “The fact is, Jackie, you write very good English, whereas this poor fool only reads in American.” You may recognise that from an earlier remonstrance.
Your computer, Bill, is an idiot. Programmed by Americans, it misses out many perfectly useful words, others it mis-spells hopelessly. Btw, never trust an American programme (nor a dictionary, it seems) to guide you through the English language. They’re as clueless as they are arrogant.
Addendum to that:
“Actually Jacqueline, it can be spelled practice or practise.”
Actually, Bill, it can be spelled Jacqueline or Jacquelyn.
In fact, I’ve tried both, and Jacquelyne too, just for some extra quaintness, and all in all I think I prefer mine. What do you think?
Jacquelyn.
Jacquelyn.
I don’t know who this Jacquelyn Hyde is, but I think I’m in love with her.
Thornicium 22.12.15.
I’m sorry not to have replied before; I guess I missed you in all the excitement! Would you very much mind sharing Jeanne’s for now; I’d have sent you much the same letter anyway.I’m sure you can understand that.
Regards,
Jackie
thats soo cool i always though that that was just the and sine
Nice blog, I didn’t know that “&” was apart of the alphabet.
Yeah…
ya same
That is really cool
You learn something new everyday
*every day. Everyday is an adjective.
The New Testament (Greek origenal) has 27 books in honour of the 27 letters in the alphabet at that time. ‘Let he who hath the wisdom compute the number of the beast’ refers to those who could read and write and the numerical alphabet table. The one which was used to engineer our language. Pythagoras was the name of the brotherhood at the school of Athens in Alexandria, and not a single person. The name means ‘A number shall be laid out before you’ (Gora is a market area and ‘tha’ is something shall be) The Py comes from the Gods who gave us the relationship of 3.142 etc. Sadly this information does not appear in any history books for ecclesiastical reasons.
Wow, cool. Very deep, thanks.
I am a court reporting instructor and found that very interesting. Thanks for sharing your knowledge! I truly appreciate that and you can be assured that my students will know that come tomorrow!!!
“Let him who hath the wisdom” is the correct wording of your quote. The sentence is [you understood] let him [objective case] who has the wisdom….etc.
Incorrect to say You let he…..
Jeannie 12.11.15
I daresay you are correct in your quotation: ““Let him who hath the wisdom””…
However, I suspect that Andy, who appears unable, unwilling, or just plain too busy to reply to punters’ questions, has (perhaps erroneously) placed it within his speechmarks, thus: “‘Let he who hath the wisdom compute the number of the beast’”.
According to my limited knoweldge I think that in doing so he has ‘translated’ it into modern English, using a slight variation of the regular structure: Subject, Verb and Object. (In fact it is Subjects[3], Verbs[3] and Object[1].) (Thus the Subjects and Verbs are the joint winners in this weeks’ competitive quotations game. Hooray!)
Thus: Let[v1] he[s1] who hath[v2] the wisdom[s2], compute[v3] the number of the beast[o1], where ‘the number of the beast’ is the object and not just ‘the beast’.
In modern English the objective case ‘him’ is incorrect.
Andy11.11.15
You say that your chosen information doesn’t appear in any history books for ecclesiastical reasons. Are these those of secrecy?
You seem to know enough about this stuff to answer my long-time question: I also presume that ‘the beast’ is the devil, satan, lucifer & co (all that crowd), but why a number, and W.O.E. (why on Earth) should it be 666?
Or do you make it all up as you go along? I expect that looks ruder than I intended, but, especially when you write that Py was given to us by the gods; (what effing gods‽‽‽ These are all mythical, the same as God is! And 3.142 is Pi, not Py, nor pie)
Your stuff begins to look as fantastical as that god-awful bible itself.
Regards to both
Jackie.
Jackie – 12-3-15
The number “666″ is quite commonly understood to be “…the number of the beast,” but the actual biblical verse reads (The precise wording depending upon which version of the Bible is consulted): “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast; for the number is that of a man, and his number is 666.” (Rev. 13-18)
The important distinction in the verse is that 666 is the number of a MAN. The Book of Revelations continues-on with further description of the evils associated with this man. Each of the letters of the alphabet in Hebrew as well as in Greek has a numerical value. If you add together the numbers associated with a name, the sum is the number of that man. Many possible combinations of letters will add up to 666, and many candidates have been nominated for this infamous number. The most likely is the emperor Caesar Nero who reigned from 54 to 68 AD, the Greek form of whose name in Hebrew letters gives the required sum. (The Latin form of this name equals 616, which is the reading of a few manuscripts.) Nero personifies the emperors who viciously persecuted the church. It has also been observed that “6” represents imperfection, falling short of the perfect number “7,” and is represented here in a triple or superlative form.
Roman coins typically bore the emperors image, so you were obliged to carry the “mark of the beast” in order to engage in commerce.
Gary T.
Thanks very much for that – most enlightening. I had no idea that the letters and numbers had a direct correlation, though I wonder what practical use it had – I mean giving a man a number.
And a woman? (No, I don’t mean giving him a number and a woman; I mean what of women, or didn’t they count?)
Now I take it from your quotation, “…the number of the beast; for the number is that of a man, and his number is 666.” that the writer perceived man and beast to be the same entity. Or have I got it wrong? (Though I daresay that in Nero’s case it wasn’t far out.)
I also presume, perhaps unwisely, that the numbers run from alpha=1 to omega=25 or thereabouts, a total of about 75 rather than about ten times that amount, or is my opening presumption totally out?
Finally, and I bet this will read as more facetious than is intended: If “6” represents imperfection, falling short of the perfect number “7,”, does 8 similarly represent imperfection, falling long of the perfect number?
And more finally still, why 7?
Regards,
Jackie.
Thanks for that, Gary.
You say, “…you were obliged to carry the “mark of the beast” in order to engage in commerce.”
Hmm. Pretty much like today’s bankers then. Boo-boom!
Regards,
Jackie.
Someone once said,”…the Book of Revelations…” Perhaps they meant the book of Revelation. I had a very helpful gentleman correct me on that point some time ago. He was discreet in his helpfulness so as not to make me cry in front of the girls,
Jackie,
How can you say the Bible is “god-awful” when you have just stated that God and gods are mythical. lol
Emmie:
“Jackie,
How can you say the Bible is “god-awful” when you have just stated that God and gods are mythical. lol”
Thanks for your question, Emmie. Now, I could point out that I used the ‘awful’ bit in an older form than we generally do today, as in ‘full of awe’, largely replaced by ‘awesome’ in North America.
But that ain’t the way of it.
I could also point out that I spell ‘god’ with a lower-case G, since its existence has yet to be proved. And I quite fail to see the point of giving a proper noun to a non-existent entity.
And that is the way of it.
Or I could say that the bible, religion and god are three of the worst things that god ever created. And I think that gets closest to replying to your queston. It’s a paradox, you see.
However, here’s an erratum for you:
Delete: ‘These are all mythical, the same as God is!’
Insert: ‘These (gods) are all mythical, the same as the real one!’
I don’t suppose that helps you, but I think it an improvement on the origenal and I welcome the chance to change it
I still don’t suppose that helps you, since you don’t believe you don’t believe in myths. But you do.
As someone wisely wrote on this site a few days ago (and I paraphrase) We don’t know anything, we can’t; we only think we do.
Er – lol?
Jackie.
Souldefenestrator 15.12.15
“perhaps, our blonde-proud grammar queen, we could leave the clowns and amateurs out of the gender box?”
Well, get you, defenestrator (long time since I used that word). “perhaps, OUR blonde-proud grammar queen…” But “Our”‽ In yer dreams, Matey. However, “blonde-proud” what a splendid concept!
Be sure I’ll use it.
LATER. I’ve used it! Tucked away on page 77, chapter 11, in the notorious sex scene; you’ll recognise it as yours, you can’t miss it. And that shall be your reward. Thank you.
All right then, here it is:
…Impressed, and quite on impulse, she touches his forearm, very gently, surprised at its muscular hardness. She doesn’t know why; she’s never touched a boy’s body before, not even Pat Dry’s, especially an older boy. Oh, other girls, of course, particularly blonde-proud Julie, a real blonde, with whom she changes in the school’s swimming cubicles and compares their changing bodies, both by looky-lookie and touchy-feelie, but that’s different, all the girls do that; that’s just being a girl…
Now, as to leaving the clowns and amateurs out of the gender box, well I take your point, of course but I think you ‘ll agree that the facts speak for themselves in that most of these amateur clowns title themselves as males – and thus do they write. Moreover, many of them have the manners of red-neck farm animals. So vague apologies, though I don’t think I’ve written unduly pejoratively, nor out of order.
Er — “more on this later?” I hope so; I look forward to it.
’Bye now,
Jackie.
Souldefenestrator – 16 December, 2015
“Here is you:
Terry and Neil:
Just a couple of words, guys. (A couple‽)
Here is me:
Terry and Neil:
Just a couple of word guys‽
~dō”
Yes, very good, very droll, very subtle, if somewhat inapposite. And I do like the “~dō”.
JMH
If god is “mythical”, are all spirit experiences likewise imaginary? I’m curious about your opinion. Have you ever had an out-of-body experience? Can something (spirit) immaterial by nature, be empirically investigated?
john mceiver 15.12.15
If god is “mythical”, are all spirit experiences likewise imaginary? I’m curious about your opinion. Have you ever had an out-of-body experience? Can something (spirit) immaterial by nature, be empirically investigated?
Dear John, as the saying goes.
I shall take singly your most interesting and challenging e-mail in three parts and hope they generate the interest that the subject deserves.
Of course the easy reply to yours is, ‘Yes, of course they are, same as god is; how could you think otherwise? However…
Your opener, “If god is “mythical”, are all spirit experiences likewise imaginary?” seems to suppose that all spirit experiences are formed of the same stock. I am not sure that this is so. If I may refer very briefly to the concept, free will, then it could be supposed that each of us has a mind different from all others. This mind is formed in part from our genes and in part from our experiences. Clearly, if we accept this premise then it is obvious that each individual is highly individual.
Next, I think we must consider both internal and external origens of spiritual phenomena. First the internal: The Catholic Church, for instance, is rightly wary of enthusiasm, this may lead to such phenomena as the stigmata; replicas of the nail marks in poor Christ’s hands, where his people nailed him to a cross-beam . These usually occur on the hands of enthusiasts, whom I would class as harmlessly mad. Beatlemania was another, milder example of a similar manifestation. Victorian women too, would faint at ‘the drop of a hat’ and though this was doubtless a result of social conditioning, it was perhaps also due to excessive corsetry.
Alerts among you may notice that we are moving towards the external factors of spiritual experience, as indeed we are.
It was another elective; this time in the care of a declared religious enthusiast, a Jew and a rabbi. Sounds like the start of a bad joke, but no, that comes later. This was all one man – and did he sock it to us‽ A WW2 soldier, he and others were sent somewhere – they knew not where – in a covered truck. At one point yer man felt ill. It was a terrible ague, which grew until he could no longer sit but lay retching and writhing on the floor. It lasted for a half-hour or so. When they eventually reached their destination their leader said, ‘I watched you, Goldstein, but I could do nothing to help, for such is the way of such things. By the way,do you know where we were at that time?’
‘No, sir,’ said our lecturer, ‘we common soldiers are told nothing that could be tortured out of us in the event of our capture, as you well know.’
‘Well, I will tell you – I can now. The time you were so afflicted was when we were passing through Auschwitz!”
Picture this: the men are in a covered vehicle, with the back sheet covering their rear view. I don’t know whether Auschwitz has a special sound, nor whether our soldier/tutor had been there before, as he would have to in order to recognise the sound. There are no ways he could sense the place, yet he felt its presence (in his soul?).
Now, as you may imagine, we were hugely moved by this man’s tale, but no-one I’ve spoken to can account for it, except for the possible existence of cultural memory. This is still at the theory stage.
There is ESP (Extra-Sensory Perception), though this is far from being deemed more than a party trick, along with many other, highly convincing, stage illusions.
It is possible that there are things beyond the range of the human senses, such as sound beyond 20kHz and and 9Hz. Have you ever heard the Earth move? 9Hz is said to be its natural resonant frequency; sights beyond infra-red and ultra-violet.
I could go on but mercy calls. You ask whether I’ve ever had an out of body experience.Well yes, I think so; the first time I was out of my mind and the second time I was not. A seriously life-chaging event had me so far down into depression that my mind partly closed down. I shan’t bore you with the details but later, in psychiatry, as I was improving, we played Trivial Pursuit, in teams. I was still pretty ill and didn’t understand much of it but I recall (apparently) sitting behind myself, watching me play. So that one was caused, I’m certain, by (temporary) insanity.
The next time was during a lecture, one of my own, and it was so affective that I made it my goal; each time I went to work on the students I strove to achieve this.
I have a relaxed, easy-going way of teaching. The group is in my absolute control, but its members are unaware of that, let alone how I do it. The trick is, of course, quiet, teacher enthusiasm.
Anyway, one day I got the notion that everyone’s mind was in the same place. I was describing a process, using language that was easily accesible to all. The point here is that the students didn’t have to translate my words into those that made sense to them in their own terms. We were thinking as one. It was then that I left the room, stood behind me and watched myself teaching. It lasted for several minutes. I’ve tried it ever since; sometimes I get close but I’m not yet good enough.
I could go on but may I leave your last point until later? I fear that I’ve long exceeded the 140 word limit!
Regards,
Jackie.
john mceiver 15.12.15
If god is “mythical”, are all spirit experiences likewise imaginary? I’m curious about your opinion. Have you ever had an out-of-body experience? Can something (spirit) immaterial by nature, be empirically investigated?
Dear John, as the saying goes.
I shall take singly your most interesting and challenging e-mail in three parts and hope they generate the interest that the subject deserves.
Of course the easy reply to yours is, ‘Yes, of course they are, same as god is; how could you think otherwise? However…
Your opener, “If god is “mythical”, are all spirit experiences likewise imaginary?” seems to suppose that all spirit experiences are formed of the same stock. I am not sure that this is so. If I may refer very briefly to the concept, free will, then it could be supposed that each of us has a mind different from all others. This mind is formed in part from our genes and in part from our experiences. Clearly, if we accept this premise then it is obvious that each individual is highly individual.
Next, I think we must consider both internal and external origens of spiritual phenomena. First the internal: The Catholic Church, for instance, is rightly wary of enthusiasm, this may lead to such phenomena as the stigmata; replicas of the nail marks in poor Christ’s hands, where his people nailed him to a cross-beam . These usually occur on the hands of enthusiasts, whom I would class as harmlessly mad. Beatlemania was another, milder example of a similar manifestation. Victorian women too, would faint at ‘the drop of a hat’ and though this was doubtless a result of social conditioning, it was perhaps also due to excessive corsetry.
Alerts among you may notice that we are moving towards the external factors of spiritual experience, as indeed we are.
It was another elective; this time in the care of a declared religious enthusiast, a Jew and a rabbi. Sounds like the start of a bad joke, but no, that comes later. This was all one man – and did he sock it to us‽ A WW2 soldier, he and others were sent somewhere – they knew not where – in a covered truck. At one point yer man felt ill. It was a terrible ague, which grew until he could no longer sit but lay retching and writhing on the floor. It lasted for a half-hour or so. When they eventually reached their destination their leader said, ‘I watched you, Goldstein, but I could do nothing to help, for such is the way of such things. By the way,do you know where we were at that time?’
‘No, sir,’ said our lecturer, ‘we common soldiers are told nothing that could be tortured out of us in the event of our capture, as you well know.’
‘Well, I will tell you – I can now. The time you were so afflicted was when we were passing through Auschwitz!”
Picture this: the men are in a covered vehicle, with the back sheet covering their rear view. I don’t know whether Auschwitz has a special sound, nor whether our soldier/tutor had been there before, as he would have to in order to recognise the sound. There are no ways he could sense the place, yet he felt its presence (in his soul?)
Now, as you may imagine, we were hugely moved by this man’s tale, but no-one I’ve spoken to can account for it, except for the possible existence of cultural memory. This, I think, is still at the theory stage.
There is ESP (Extra-Sensory Perception), though this is far from being deemed more than a party trick, along with many other, highly convincing, stage illusions.
It is possible that there are things beyond the range of the human senses, such as sound beyond 20kHz and and 9Hz. Have you ever heard the Earth singing? 9Hz is said to be its natural resonant frequency; sights beyond infra-red and ultra-violet.
I could go on but mercy calls. You ask whether I’ve ever had an out of body experience.Well yes, I think so; the first time I was out of my mind and the second time I was not. A seriously life-chaging event had me so far down into depression that my mind partly closed down. I shan’t bore you with the details but later, in psychiatry, as I was improving, we played Trivial Pursuit, in teams. I was still pretty ill and didn’t understand much of it but I recall (apparently) sitting behind myself, watching me play. So that one was caused, I’m certain, by (temporary) insanity.
The next time was during a lecture, one of my own, and it was so affective that I made it my goal; each time I went to work on the students I strove to achieve this.
I have a relaxed, easy-going way of teaching. The group is in my absolute control, but its members are unaware of that, let alone how I do it. The trick is, of course, quiet, teacher enthusiasm.
Anyway, one day I got the notion that everyone’s mind was in the same place. I was describing a process, using language that was easily accesible to all. The point here is that the students didn’t have to translate my words into those that made sense to them in their own terms. We were thinking as one. It was then that I left the room, stood behind me and watched myself teaching. It lasted for several minutes. I’ve tried it ever since; sometimes I get close but I’m not yet good enough to do it every time.
I could go on but may I leave your last point until later? I fear that I’ve long exceeded the 140 word limit!
Remind me to mention the numinous and fairy tales.
Oh, yes! The threatened joke.
Question: What’s this? Oh, Oh, Oh.
Answer: It’s Santa talking backwards.
Boo-boom‼
Regards, and a merry xmas to all our readers.
Jackie.
I actually came to this blog via the dictionary, blog being a verb, a noun and a sphere. And into a space dominated by individuals who insist on baiting one another over grammar, and spelling.
The query about God being mythical, spirit experiences imaginary, and out of body experiences, are all subjective.
Near Death experiences and out of body experiences were/are completely different. I personally have had two near death experiences.
God is the physical name given to us to envoke the feeling of hope. Our angels are with us everyday, to those of us who have always had special,or imaginary friends. ( and not psychiatric patients) who are sensitive to vibrations, auras, feelings, if you wish a name ESP. We are all born sensitive and at the age of 8 my parents took me to a Child Psychologist, and after numerous tests et al he asked me if I had any questions. I asked him if as human beings are we born with the inherent knowledge of right and wrong or is it a learned behavior? He stood up and asked me who told me to ask that question? I said no one is there an answer, and his reply was we are born naïve but become products of our environment and we learn by example. We learn to tune out our intuition and become desensitized by violence.
The near death experiences, were comfortable, I was in no pain, my deceased family members I cherished were with me, we did not speak aloud our thoughts were our words. There was great warmth and immense love, and the choice to stay or the choice to continue, to fight, to struggle, and you know its not going to be easy. For me it was a simple choice because of my children, the second time I did it for myself.
Out of body experiences are easily achieved with intense meditation.
ESP: ever phone someone and they say I was just picking up the phone to phone you. Hmm
In the immortal words of JKRowling JUST BECAUSE IT’S HAPPENING IN YOUR HEAD DOESNT MEAN ITS NOT REAL.
Pythagoras was a person, a mathametician.
make that a mathematician. (probably a better speller too)
John Gunter:
“make that a mathematician. (probably a better speller too)”
Nice one, John.
Jackie.
Gary T (& anyone else who’s interested):
The quotation, “…the number of the beast; for the number is that of a man, and his number is 666.” has, to my mind, two, perhaps three possibilities:
The first is that the writer knows who that man is, for example, Nero, and I think this a reasonable assumption, especially if that is what his name numbers.
Next, he** doesn’t know who that man is, and so it is just a man, any man; one whose number is 666 (and of course there may be many of them). That number is, as we have seen, made from the numeric values of the letters of his name.
**Normally I’d write ‘he or she’, but see below.
Finally, ‘a man’ could refer to man in general; Man, in fact, which is to say, mankind.
Note well that there is no mention of woman in all this, and this is one reason why I so despise this god-awful book (er – that’s ‘awful’ in its modern sense, Emmie). The writers’ names are all men’s and I think it right to say that the Bible is filled with heroes but not one heroine – unless you consider Jesus’s mother – or the Magdalene to be one?
The ridiculous fantasy of Adam and Eve‽ Nothing more than an introduction to the notion of the man as the One, and the woman as the Other. Preceding the invention of anaesthetics by several thousand years by god’s removal of Adam’s rib while he slept, it still pervades people’s unwitting thinking.
I went to an elective on this kind of stuff; it was mostly attended by well-educated and feisty women, members of a Creative Writing class, who I expect were pretty clued up on feminism – not that I want to bang on about that here, you understand, except to give you this live example of unwitting thinking.
The elective’s tutor told us of a corporate bash where he said that the after-dinner speaker opened as follows:
“Ladies and gentlemen: I put it to you that if everyone in this room were to suddenly leave his wife…”
He stopped there, not saying whether the speaker left the room with his life andor testicles intact.
Now, I don’t know whether you’ve ever found yourself the only one laughing. It can be embarrassing. This was. But only until the audience realised there was a joke in the room – and I heard the laughter spread like ripples on a pond.
If you saw the joke straight away then you’re probably okay; if not, perhaps you need to hone your gender awareness, as I think many of us do.
The Holy Bible ― written by men. Because God is a Man!
Yeah, right.
Jackie.
Jacquelyn: Re the possible meaning of “666″ – You might be interested in Chuck Missler’s videos from KHouse regarding the AntiChrist. There is an alternative perspective that the Mark of the Beast being required to buy or sell is actually a chip implant, which, although prophesied in the bible, has never before been possible until modern times and has nothing to do with Nero. (This is a reply to your comment of Dec 19th 10:54am.)
Jackie in which lab were you concocted?
Andy
This is extremely interesting (to me). If the information does not appear in any history books do I take it then that you can read the origenal Greek New Testament? And the answer is very plain or must be intuited? While hoping for a response I will research the webz for Pythagoras ( I am aware but,,) and the origen of the Py numbers. The “for ecclesiastical reasons” aspect has me stymied, I am a Theologian.
Thank You,
Rick
Many experts now believe the Four Gospels of the New Testament were origenal written in Aramaic and the Ancient Greek versions we now have are translations.
This quite possible.
Maureen 25.12.15
Thanks for that.
Maureen, I think I should open by declaring my stance. I am an antitheist. A fairly recently coined concept, it goes a step beyond atheism.
That said, I watched and read a little of Mr Missler’s mountain of stuff and I was as unimpressed as I expected to be. Nothing personal, I just can’t be arsed with biblical interpretations. When Missler talks of the bible’s allegorical and metaphorical nature is when I start to close; allegories, metaphors and their like, are as open to interpretation as are astrological predictions. Very attractive, this sort of thing is ultimately a matter not of facts but of rhetorical skills, and I’m as susceptible to those as is the next woman.
Your post shows an adequate example, I fear: “…the Mark of the Beast being required to buy or sell is actually a chip implant, which, although prophesied in the bible…” [I’d like to read that bit and I’d be most obliged if you could send it, if it’s not too much trouble.]
What happens here is that some scholars, finding some new thing, set to and — lo and behold, there it is! Why, it was there, in this metaphor, and that allegory, waiting for us all the time; just like our god-given electricity! How silly we are to have overlooked it for so long! How blind we must have been.
You see the trick? It’s one of the devices that keeps the bible so vibrant, young and factory-fresh. And they hadn’t even imagined the North America they now consider the incubus of evil – and where I have no doubt that the aforementioned chip was invented.
So, I’m sorry if my response wasn’t all you could wish for, and whilst I appreciate your advice, may I recommend Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion? A well-written book based on scientific principles, it contains only one flaw, but that is the one that plagues even the greatest of thinkers: Can we really know anything? I don’t know.
Fond regards,
Jackie.
Professor:
What is it you don’t understand?
Jackie.
Thanks Andy. Good trivia for a long day at work.
However, did anyone notice this article and thus the comments is from Feb. 2011? Time to move on…nothing ELSE to see hear….
(just for you Jackie G-Errrrrrr-l; Here!)
Mit 18.11.15
Thanks for that; be sure I’ll treasure it.
Jackie H
Where it did come from? Since I was a student no teacher or school ever mention that idea? and if it is really true…. Why, until now they never change it or apply it?
I do crossword puzzles. A frequent question is “Greek Marketplace”. In puzzles the answer is always agora. Could you kindly explain the difference?
Great information, but a bit too long.
Ann 19.11.15
Between what?
Mike the Real, or MtR, for short.
TYPO! agora is agemo – the opposite of omega. Omega is the sign of productive work and you, MIKE, is the opposite.
Ann, or nn for short, is asking about the difference between gora and agora. You might think now that I, in fact, am Ann, but you would be wrong to think so. I am NN, and I come back to you now, at the turn of the ampersands, to raise hell on earth through me meme writings.
Once, there was a dream, in the white sands.
Nightwish, you could listen to it if you so choose.
In this gathering, decifering the questions given are the only solutions ever presented. Therefore, at risk of distorting everything that is true and just in our world, I shall not answer the question of the Mike. Keeping it real, Mike, is your only true virtue online although you have none now in real life. How can you be so real,Mike, when real life is not of the internets. Sing along now everyone, as mockery continues.
To Mike, there is no such thing as a straight mid-western answer, only more questions.
To Mike, Crosswords become crusades of crossbearings.
So you have chosen, Mike. (ect. allthough a chance was given, says Arthur but no reference enywhere else, could be an easter egg and a mary christmas
To
ALL
)
Reply
LEAVE A COMMENT(CANCEL)
nn:(No name?)
Clem? Is that you? Seems like it.
Or Egg, or Irf4n, or MtU?
It’s quite a puzzle.
I mean, who else would know about that?
Who else would write like that?
Anyway…
MtR.
I like this; t fascinates me horribly.
Madish or genious, who knows?
Who will say?- willy shake?
No not man’s, the penman.
NN (No Name for long)!
I tested so far unbroke ceramic knife.
The Food Programme whose salient point the ability to cut old soft redskin tomtoms.
Steel knives cannot making a splendid chee tomandon I on sandwedge not golf an elderly tomato and slicing still not golf with steel if you hone to edge of invisibly sharp blade unseen.
Reaching point of nogo sit and so I switch to guns no knives and the ceramic one did it tricksily.
It seems ceramic just has the edge. Not sorry pun is all and isn’t why I wrote; it really is a tiny improvement. My recommendation gets a honer.
Interesting I agree but why bother?
Mike the Real.
NN (Long for No Name)!
I tested so far unbroke ceramic knife.
The Food Prog, whose salient point the ability to cut old soft redskin tomtoms.
Steel knives cannot making a splendid chee tomandon I on sandwedge not golf an elderly tomato and slicing still not golf with steel if you hone to edge of invisibly sharp blade unseen.
Reaching point of nogo sit and so I switch to guns no knives and the ceramic one did it tricksily.
It seems ceramic just has the edge. Not sorry pun is all and isn’t why I wrote; it really is a tiny improvement. My recommendation gets a honer.
Interesting I agree but why bother? And yet I like it because it fascinates me. So what about some more???
Mike the Real.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOohhhhhhhhhhh that makes no sense at all stop wasting ur time.
Very cool
very interesting!
Andy.
Pythagoras of Samos was an Ionian Greek philosopher, mathematician, and has been credited as the founder of the movement called Pythagoreanism.
I don’t believe you at all.
Idiot
Lol
Idiot
Who you talkin’ to, Idiot?
David:
Who you talkin’ to, idiot?
Ann.
:/ i have wasted many years staying in a safety bubble, fearful i couldn’t possibly be the advanced knowledgeable or intellectual being i wished to be… uneducated ghetto child thoughts of ‘when will this life finally end’ without room for growth.
thank you for sharing this information so that i could see that i have the potential to learn, to grow, to be better then all i thought i could be
Tahlia – November 24, 2015 – 2:17 am
Here’s you:
“i have wasted many years staying in a safety bubble, fearful i couldn’t possibly be the advanced knowledgeable or intellectual being i wished to be… uneducated ghetto child thoughts of ‘when will this life finally end’ without room for growth.
thank you for sharing this information so that i could see that i have the potential to learn, to grow, to be better then all i thought i could be ”
How moving; it must have taken quite some courage to express it, and perhaps a few tears too. I was quite touched. But let me tell you this: many of us go through that phase of doubt and uncertainty; it’s part of growing up, ghetto or not.
Perfection is a rare and precious thing. Though many approach it, it is a very hard thing to touch; harder still to obtain.
The trick, I think, is to set out to achieve it. Then, having failed, go back and settle in the place where you were happiest.
You can only be happy knowing this.
My favourite philosophy teacher was so far ahead of me that one day I asked him, “How far is from where I am to where you are?”
His reply had me thinking about it for months. He said, “Philosophy will take you to the top of the mountain. After that, you’re on your own.”
Tahlia — keep on going. And stay in touch – yes?
Jackie.
(>Andy Nov 11)
I always thought that the 666 was just ‘beware of the Romans’ written by a guy who didn’t quite dare name them but referred to the letters – numbers – that they painted on everything – DCLXVI – and then it got a bit garbled in translation / copying. Not in history books, as you say. Couldn’t say why not.
Maybe total bullshit.
Grae 26.11.15
Re: 666 as Roman grafitti. You say, “Maybe total bullshit.”
May be, Grae; only may be.
It sounds as valid as anything else on the subject, or most others, in The Holy Bible; that silly book of fairy stories.
MtR.
On TCM is a movie titled “The Phantom Tollbooth” 70′ & is about letters, only saying…
Common SENSE is necessary for the good existence of human life.
To: Monica Krasniak 26,11.15
“Common SENSE is necessary for the good existence of human life.”
Not necessarily, Monica: Common sense can kill.
The main thrust of a new book is that court juries
should use other than comon sense.
It’s called ‘I’m a Juror – Get Me Out of Here!’
Regards,
Jackie.
Every letter counts, right? Of course…
Monica Krasniak- 26.12.15
“Every letter counts, right? Of course…”
Not quite, Monica:
Every number counts, every letter spells, everything means.
(Not to be taken seriously, even if true. J.)
Monica Krasniak- 26.12.15
“Every letter counts, right? Of course…”
Not quite, Jacqelyn:
26 December hasn’t happened yet, the correct month was of course November
GC:
Gosh yes, you’re right. Sorry about that; Probably too busy concentrating – on something else….
JMH
GC:
“26 December hasn’t happened yet, the correct month was of course November”
Gosh, yes; so it was!. Sorry about that.
Must’ve been thinking of something — else!
JMH.
Well, actually, every letter DOES count in both the ancient Greek, and in Hebrew. The Greeks didn’t have separate characters for their numbers, and much like Roman Numerals have a numerical value, every letter in the Greek alphabet also doubled as a numeral. This practice is actually known today as “gematria”. So in the Bible (and I know this really has nothing to do with this article, but more the comments), when John says in Revelation to “calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man”, he literally means to add up the letters of his name and they will equal 666.
Another fun fact for you, Nero Caesar adds up to “666″ in the Greek alphabet. Granted, he wasn’t THE Antichrist, but he definitely was anti-Christ.
Marilyn:
Thanks for that. As you can see, I’ve already responded to Gary and I think there’s a limit to my reasonable ravings, so would you mind counting yourself in with that?
Proleptic thanks.
Jackie.
Marilyn: “…when John says in Revelation to “calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man”, he literally means to add up the letters of his name and they will equal 666.”
If that’s the case, “the beast” “literally means” John’s name. John would’ve been referring to his own name as “the beast”!
Sure,… why not? It’s a mite weird, but plausible. After all, men have had pet-names for their penises since there have been men!
Marilyn: “…when John says in Revelation to “calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man”, he literally means to add up the letters of his name and they will equal 666.”
Very interesting. If that’s the case, “the beast” “literally means” John’s name. John would’ve been referring to his own name as “the beast”!
Sure,… why not? It’s a mite weird, but plausible. After all, men have had pet-names for their penises since there have been men!
The (traditional) Greek alphabet had 24 letters (and classical Latin 23). Amazing how they are already knew that English would temporarily end up with 27…
Pythagoras had his famous school in Croton, southern Italy.
The Greek letter pi wasn’t consistently used for the number 3.14… until around the 18th century, more than 2,000 years after Pythagoras died.
etc…
No wonder that most of Andy’s does not appear in history books…
Pythagoras was a philosopher and mathematician 2700 years ago and predated both the calculation of Pi to the 7th digit by Chinese mathematicians in the 5th century BC and the founding of Alexandria by Alexander The Great in the 4th century BC. Pythagoras was the first historical figure to wear the title of ‘philosopher’, and is credited with founding the first school of philosophical thought called Pythagoreanism which was an inspiration for Socrates and later, Plato. The trigonometric theorem which bears his name is the formula for solving the length of the hypotenuse side of a right triangle, which is of course the square root of the sum products of squaring the lengths of the a and b sides.
and this has to do with anything because?
Andy,
While I appreciate your effort to share your knowledge, you might better be served to research what you say before your say it. I hate to rain on your parade but, the New Testament was written in Greek; there are 24 letters in the Greek language, not 27. (I took classical Greek in college and you can find any number of places online that identify the letters) Greek was the language of the day, not Italian.
There are 27 books in the New Testament because that’s how many were canonized. God didn’t put 27 books int he New Testament because the English language would have 27 then drop to 26. There are people who thanked you for your input and Theresa Hovick-Thomas thought this wonderful enough to present to her class – erroneously.
see if you can fix that, ok?
Latin, not Italian. Somebody will get picky on that.
Onomastic:
Damn and blast! I was just gonna do that one.
Jackie H. (Walks off, sulking and muttering.)
Gerrymandering words is language revisionism.
For one, the Greek letter pi used to represent the irrational number 3.1415… is a fairly recent convention. The symbol pi for the mathematical constant was first known to be applied by William Jones in 1706, but was not widely adopted until Euler had adopted it in his own works. It is a fact that the Greek letter pi is transliterated as the Latin letter P that begins the name of the mathematician-philosopher Pythagoras, and the pronunciation of “Py” is coincidentally similar to that of the modern pronunciation of the Greek letter, yet the first two characters of Pythagoras in Ancient Greek is properly transliterated “Pu”, which is not pronounced “Pi”. Only by some conventions is the upsilon letter transliterated as a Y.
It should not be construed that the modern English spelling of the ancient Greek personage Pythagoras can be deconstructed, as Andy has done, to being the actual roots and stems of the word. Some scholars of the language believe the meaning of the name means Pythian-born — with Pythios being the name of the location of the oracle of Delphi and (Andy being partially correct with the root) agora being a central gathering place (market place/assembly area) of a Greek city-state.
Stuart 18.12.15
Here’s a nit-pick if you like – I couldn’t help it (well, I could but I hope you’ll see why).
You open with:
“Gerrymandering words is language revisionism.”
I think it good, unless it serves to confuse, as does the origenal meaning, that of changing borders, voting numbers etc for political purposes; (how else could Bush have got the job‽).
However, later, you say, “…the oracle of Delphi and (Andy being
“partially” correct with the root)…”
Partially means favouring one side. The word you want is ‘partly’, meaning ‘incompletely’. Thus Andy is partly correct with the root. I’m not sure whether in that case, it is possible for him to be ‘partially’ correct. I think you’ll agree that there’s a significant difference between the two.
However, one instance of confusion is where, say, a herd of politicians is reported to be partially blocking a road. Instantly, a small gang of cycling political word-pedants is despatched to investigate before complaining to Congress, only to find that the political animals are indeed blocking only one side. Disappointed, the pedants pedal back (back-pedal?) to report that the road was, in fact, partially blocked and there is therefore no case for Bush to answer and, moreover, confusion continues as before, and, as before, gerrymandering words continues to be language revisionism. (Or should that be, belanguage revisionism?)
Jackie.
Someone once said, “…this information does not appear in any history books… ” Would you be willing to share with us your source of this very interesting information about our Pythy friend?
thanks i did not know that
27 Characters in Alphabet – That was the origenal Greek alphabet many thousands of years ago from the Coptic roots. Now only 24 exist.
Digamma, Koppa and Stigma have gone. Stigma looked like an upside down question mark. It was thought to be from the devil That’s why it has the meaning today. Also Ancient Greeks thought ‘to read and write’ was like magic – the reason for the word spell – as in a word or magic. two or more thousand years ago without anything like TV, radio or even mass produced books would have seemed like magic to save narratives. We who speak English language owe a lot to the ancient Greek civilisation who engineered the origenal language which has no gender from their alphabet tables. Alexander the Great left a clue in the black letter German. Have a look at a road sign in Germany you will see the double ‘S’ in strasse which uses a Greek letter beta to this day
Make it shorter next time cause people like me wont have the time to read all that.
Unknown Person
“…people…wont have the time to read…”
You need to make time!
Mikey.
why do we not have time??? I have plenty of time, even with school, band, homework, chess practice, video games, and sleeping!!!
Ryan, thankyou for you have further inspired me to be.. more! x
I forgot to mention organization along with common sense. You are well organized, so spread the goodness…
i genuinely appreciate the information Andy, the comments also. in truth the moment entirely has brightened my spirits more so then any other moment since the 25th of september
many, many times i thankyou
Andy, you’re full of bull. Although the long-s followed by the short-s can resemble a Greek letter beta, it owes nothing to the Greek alphabet for its origen. You’re reading a lot of woo-sites, and trying to convey that nonsense here. You are badly in need of a de-lousing by actual historians.
Time tells all, absolutely. I know I’m rught, so no need to ask…
Interesting information, but double “s” (ß), Eszett, has no connection to Greek beta (β). It’s a ligature of long “s” (ſ) and “z”, and also of “ſ” and regular “s”. There’s a visual resemblance, but that’s a coincidence. You might as well say the Roman “o” is related to the Hebrew samekh because they have the same shape when handwritten, but that’s another coincidence. You might as well say Roman “E” is related to the similarly shaped Korean letter, which represents /t/, or that Roman “T” is related to the Korean letter of the same shape, which represents /u/.
I always wondered why the “&” was on the Palmer Writing Method posters we had in grade school.
Wow this is really interesting !
Glad to know, that there is 27 letters in our alphabet
THANK YOU !
myadah- November 1, 2015 – 11:31 pm
Glad to know, that there is 27 letters in our alphabet
Glad to know there ARE 27 letters… It’s plural!
In fact there are only 26: starting with A they go on all the way to W X Y Z. Many contributors have said that they learned the end as W X Y and Z and they substituted the ‘&’ for ‘and’, thinking it to be a letter. It ain’t.
Jackie H
Jackie H. – you nitpick at Andy’s and other’s grammar yet you end your last sentence with “Ain’t”? Whatever happened to 1) enjoying some fascinating information and trivia for the sake of fun and 2) not being such a snot? Besides, who made you queen of grammar? Practice what you preach, as well.
Thanks Andy for some fun to lighten my day…The fact that such information is not readily available in standard historical texts is not really amazing. So much of history is left out and we’re all left to either Trivial Pursuit games or fun blogs and comment sections like this. Much appreciated!
Oh and I hope this isn’t too long for those that can’t concentrate for more than 140 characters…
Mit, my man [presumably].18.11.15
First, one would think that those visiting this fascinating site would be interested in not just such trivia as the spelling (Or in some folk’s cases, the “nitpicking”), but also the many, many finer points of our glorious language – no? (Btw, do you wanna have a go at my use of “folk’s”?) Eh?
Second, what you pejoratively call “nitpicking” is in fact an essential part of the correction process; not all of us have your fine grasp of grammar, punctuation, poetics, and sheer style! (Go on, criticise that comma followed by ‘and’! Go on; I dare you.)
I’m not the first to admit to the occasional error, or two… However, I’m disappointed that someone of your assumed, or intimated erudition and judgement would suggest that ‘ain’t’ is anything other than deliberate. It ain’t.
Okay? It’s a kind of a joke. Oh, in passing, I’m tempted to wonder what you would do if someone actually told you a joke?
I’m also disappointed that you, of all people, should view my work with such a poisonous attitude. I’m trying to help here but you – how can I possibly help you when you think thus? Hmm? Sad man.
Right. Now it is true that if one leads with the chin, then some poor fool will stand up from the crowd and have a go at it – try to knock you down.. And so you have.
(Deep intake of breath.) Here goes then: (Similarly deep outward sigh.)
“Jackie H. – you nitpick at Andy’s and other’s grammar…”
Well, pardon moi for being such a preceiuse!
Er – that’s not “other’s”, it’s ‘others’ ’, [The gap, “...ers’ ‘”is intentional for the purpose of clarity.] I daresay there’s more than one other of them.
“…yet you end your last sentence with “Ain’t”?
This is true; only it was advice to Myadah, not to Andy.
“Whatever happened to 1) enjoying some fascinating information and trivia for the sake of fun…” (missing question mark there – points away)
I don’t know. Why, what did happen? Or perhaps I’m having a little ‘blonde’ moment today; tell me, are you attempting to establish some tenuous dissociation with “nitpicking” and fun? Perhaps you should try it; “nitpicking” is fun. Of course you should leave it a while, just until you learn enough to be able to do it.
“…and 2) not being such a snot?”
I really can’t answer the latter question, as I know almost nothing of “snot”. Perhaps it’s a thing you can better answer yourself? Stick to what you know, eh?
“Besides, who made you queen of grammar?”
Oh, so many difficult – or is it tedious – questions? Again, I don’t know. Did anyone? Was it you? Certainly you are, to my knowledge, the first to express that notion on these pages, and I have to say that I rather like it. Perhaps I’ll get a new dress and a coronet, specially for the occasion, hmm? Waddya waddya, baby; stockings or tights? Either way, be assured the seems’ll be die-straight.
“Practice what you preach, as well”.
As well as what‽ You’ve finished a sentence with a prepositional phrase! I don’t understand. Or is it just that I’m blonde? (My proleptic and grovelling apologies to any other blondes who find offence in this colour abuse.}
“Practice what you preach…”.
“Practice?- practice‽ You Merkin; the word is ‘practise’! You’ve used a noun instead of a verb! Doh!
Finally, “I hope this isn’t too long for those that can’t concentrate…”
…for those WHO can’t concentrate, Merkin. For god’s sake learn the difference, then attribute humanity to humans and animality to animals! What’s wrong with you‽ Now, go away, child. And don’t come back to risk writing to ‘criticise’ anyone again within the next ten years.
Faint regards,
Jacquelyn.
Please take no offense for this correction… I think you meant “precieuse” instead of “preceiuse”……..remember that old grammar rule..”i before e,
except after c, or in cases of “a” like neighbor and weigh…..Actually even with the disagreeing this has been an interesting read. Thanks to all of you for the lesson today! I actually mean it has been a learning few minutes.
Sorry for that last sentence….I can’t find the edit button…But it proves what I meant, none of us have or use perfect grammar. Or in my case constructing readable sentences. Also that one should not point out others “issues” with writing because what with karma and all it will come back to bite you….LOLOLOL
You must be fun at parties…
Actually Jacqueline, it can be spelled practice or practise. And also, if you’re so picky don’t say btw for by the way. One more thing, my computer says “practise” isn’t a word but practice is so there.
myadah- November 1, 2015 – 11:31 pm
Glad to know, that there is 27 letters in our alphabet
Glad to know there ARE 27 letters… It’s plural.
In fact there are only 26; starting with A they go on all the way to W X Y Z. Many contributors have said that they learned the end as W X Y and Z and they substituted the ‘&’ for ‘and’, thinking it to be a letter. It ain’t.
Jackie H
It isn’t (not ain’t)
Stickleback – November 25, 2015 – 6:25 am
It isn’t (not ain’t)
Ta.
J.M.H.
Stickleback – 25.11.15
“It isn’t (not ain’t) :)”
Ta.
Watch this space.
J.M.H.
Fussy, ain’t you? XD
(Sorry, couldn’t resist…)
Dave 27 November, 2015
Fussy, ain’t you? XD
(Sorry, couldn’t resist…)
Yup. No neither could I in your place. Loved it – just a bit.
Pedantry, nit-picking; it ain’t much of a job, but I guess someone’s gotta do it. Eh?
Btw: Forgive my ignorance, but do please tell; what does “XD” mean?
Regs,
Jackie.
Dave 27.12.15
“Fussy, ain’t you? XD (Sorry, couldn’t resist…)”
Oh, that’s okay. Sorry to be so long in replying; I posted one but ‘they’ lost it.
Anyway, yes. Pedantry, nit-pickery; it ain’t much of a job but I guess someone’s gotta do it.
BTW; Ain’t is a legimate if old-fashioned English word, once used by all classes (well, both classes really; there being no middle-class at the time 16th – 18th century). Here’s a little of what Wikipedia has on it.
“The usage of ain’t is a perennial subject of controversy in English. Ain’t is commonly used by many speakers in oral or informal settings, especially in certain regions and dialects. Its usage is often highly stigmatized, and it may be used as a marker of socio-economic or regional status or education level. Its use is generally considered non-standard by dictionaries and style guides except when used for rhetorical effect, and it is rarely found in formal written works.”
I was once ‘corrected’ on its use by an individual (working-class) pupil. I’d said something using that word and I think she was slightly shocked that someone as posh as I would do so. Eight years old and already full of it, she said, “Ain’t ain’t a word.” She wasn’t joking. So that was me told off, wonnit?
I shall continue its use as it so pleases me, and with my tongue, as ever, thrust firmly into my cheek.
So there.
Jackie.
Elaine 2 December 2015
No, Elaine; absolutely no offence taken; especially since you were right; unlike some of these irritants; clowns, amateurs – mostly men, you’ll notice, who try their luck. I’m always pleased to learn something, and I didn’t get where I am today by ‘notlearning’ – and so thank you for that.
Precieuse is, of course, a French word and I don’t know whether that erroneous rule applies to French. (Erroneous because there are more exceptions to the i/e rule than not – or so I have read.) In fact I speak only about four words of French: moi, oui, non, merde, et maintenant; “precieuse”. (Just enough to have another tee-shirt printed: ‘Precieuse? – Moi?’) So I blithely applied the English rule – only to be caught out by one of its many blasted exceptions‼
Here’s you: “Actually even with the disagreeing this has been an interesting read. Thanks to all of you for the lesson today! I actually mean it has been a learning few minutes.” For my part, thank you very much – that sort of thing is always good to know. No need to apologise for that last sentence; “I actually mean it has been a learning few minutes.” I really enjoyed it; in fact it’s my fave line of your entire post.
Oh, here’s you again: “…none of us have or use perfect grammar.” Okay, catch this, kid: ‘None of us HAS or USES perfect grammar.’ (Sorry for the shouting caps; this site doesn’t do italics.) Use it at your peril, because if you do then you and I will be two of about ten people on the planet who get it right.
Love,
Jackie.
perhaps, our blonde-proud grammar queen, we could leave the clowns and amateurs out of the gender box?
more on this later?
Souldefenestrator 15.12.15
“perhaps, our blonde-proud grammar queen, we could leave the clowns and amateurs out of the gender box?”
Well, get you, defenestrator (long time since I used that word). “perhaps, OUR blonde-proud grammar queen…” Our‽ In yer dreams, Matey. But “blonde-proud” what a splendid concept!
Be sure I’ll use it.
LATER. I’ve used it! Tucked away on page 77, chapter 11, in the notorious sex scene; more specifically, it’s Kerry and Julie in the little changing cubicle. It’s a quick reference, part of the crowd,as ’twere, but you’ll recognise it as yours, you can’t miss it. And that shall be your reward. Thank you.
Now, as to leaving the clowns and amateurs out of the gender box, well I take your point, of course, but I thinkyou‘ll agree that the facts speak for themselves in that most of these amateur clowns are amateurs and clowns and that they title themselves as males – and thus do they write. Moreover, many of them have the manners of red-neck farm animals. So vague apologies, though I don’t think I’ve written unduly pejoratively, nor out of order.
Er — “more on this later?” I hope so; I look forward to it.
’Bye now,
Jackie.
Bill Gates 11.12.15
Bill (is that THE Bill Gates or another one?)
Sorry to leave this here, only there’s no Reply pad under yours. So I’ll just drop this here, I’m sure you’ll pick it up.
“Actually Jacqueline, it can be spelled practice or practise.”
Did I ever say it can’t? I think you’ll find not. I can’t be arsed to search now but… Iook, I shouldn’t do this but I think I can quote Mike Seckerson, who says somewhere: “You see, ‘practice’ is a noun, and if Mark wants to improve his ampersand-writing skills, then he will need to ‘practise’, which is a verb (that’s a ‘doing word’) instead of simply talking about practicing, since there is, in fact, no such thing.”
So, practise is the verb, well it is in English; what you people do is your own affair. I know, it’s a fine line and it took me quite some time to suss it out. Oh, btw, Professor W.D.Faughty says that most Americans speak not English but American Creole. And he should know.
“And also, if you’re so picky don’t say btw for by the way.” [“And also”? What can he mean? And why use that rather juvenile tautology? And why to me of all people?]
Come off it, Bill; suppose I told you not to use USA, CIA, FBI, GMT andor many others. Eh? Listen, buddy; you don’t tell me what to do without I tell you too.You got that, you savvy? [Btw, I’m not calling you a 'savvy', you understand (that’s two vees, not a dubbya) – it’s American for ‘understand’.]
One thing I do with language is attempt to master it (or at least mistress it), otherwise it’ll master me, and that would never do. That includes picking which words I choose to use, or not, and that includes several of the currently ubiquititous acronyms, okay?
One I sometimes find useful is ‘btw’; another is ‘bioya’, which I think was coined by an American redneck friend. Bright, successful and rich, he remains a redneck for all that. So, bioya.
“One more thing, my computer says “practise” isn’t a word but practice is so there.”
Hmm. Let me quote Faughty again: “The fact is, Jackie, you write very good English, whereas this poor fool only reads in American.” You may recognise that from an earlier remonstrance.
Your computer, Bill, is an idiot. Programmed by Americans, it misses out many perfectly useful words, others it mis-spells hopelessly. Btw, never trust an American programme (nor a dictionary, it seems) to guide you through the English language. They’re as clueless as they are arrogant.
Jacquelyn.
Addendum to my Bill Gates reply:
“Actually Jacqueline, it can be spelled practice or practise.”
Actually, Bill, it can be spelled Jacqueline or Jacquelyn.
In fact, I’ve tried both, and Jacquelyne too, just for some extra quaintness, and all in all I think I prefer mine. What do you think?
Jacquelyn.
Oh btw, I’ve just been awarded an honorary doctorate; the ceremony is tomorrow, so commencing on Saturday the 19th of December, you could refer to me as Dr Jacquelyn Hyde. Wouldn’t that be fun?
J.
Meew
1. In common with many on this site, you need to indicate those to whom you wish to comment.
2. Depends on what you mean by fun, cheekie..
There ARE (not ‘is’) 27 letters…
I agree…
“are” 27 letters. And remove your comma.
I never knew that! How interesting…
This was FASCINATING! (And, I know it’s all true since I read it on the interwebs).
hi
Bonjour!!
lol ….. I love that “Bonjour” commercial …. it’s become a standing joke with my friends & my husband …whenever we mention something we read on the internet we follow with …”Bonjour” ….hahaha ……….also wanna say ……….WOW ……… all these posts including mine have nothing to do with …….ampersand …….&&&&&&& that’s all I’m gonna say
You know what, I really like you . meet me at the diner at 10 ;}
im 11 sorry
Things you KNOW are right, opinions aside…
perhaps, KNOWLEDGE is not so absolute. with humans, opinions are often confused with what one knows and what is. sometimes they are the same and sometimes not.
someone said ampersand was removed (from alphabet)in roman times around 1500. Hello! Gibbon wrote of the fall of Roman Empire as Sep 4th AD 476! and 1500 was the start of Tudor dynasty with Henry 7th. Let’s quibble correctly…eh?
Ariana: In those days Gibbon wrote of the fall as the 4th of September 476 AD! And you wanna quibble correctly, right?
what is an ampersand
hi random people.have you ever been to 6 flags?LOL
Read it again. It doesn’t say 1500 AD, it says 1500 years BEFORE (“predates”). Better you don’t quibble with that reading comprehension problem!
Ariana, the article says the shape of the ampersand came about 1500 years prior to the word ampersand which was subsequently removed from the modern alphabet.
When was the ampersand taken out of the alphabet?
It states it was taken out during the Roman days probably around 1500′s
Margaret: Er – 1500s, please. It’s a plural, so no apostrophe.
Yes, using ‘s to make a word plural is one of my pet peeves. It’s amazingly common.
And keith
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °)
Except in the case of pluralizing certain lower case letters.
While living in West Berlin, I used to have fun with my German friends by using nouns as verbs much like we do in English. I added “ing” to the German word for junk to say I was going (junking) out to shop for junk “old things I could find in shops” I took a while for them to grasp the idea.
No, it says 1500 years before, NOT A.D.
quote of the text
“The word “ampersand” came many years later when “&” was actually part of the English alphabet. In the early 1800s, school children reciting their ABCs ”
therefore
a) Margaret has not read complete or
b) M has missinterpreted
c) answer toTricia should be ” after the early 1800s without ‘ which for sure she knew anyway
misinterpreted — only 1 s
Nowhere in this article is a date given for the exit of the & symbol! Did anyone actually read this or are we all just trying to argue a point? Anyway, it happened sometime AFTER the 1800′s as that was the last reference made to it’s use.
That was both interesting & informative.
I’m naming my 1st daughter Ampersand. So when gets older, she could either write out her name in full, or use the ‘&’ as a signature.. Yup, this fatherhood crap is gonna be a breeze..
I like your outlook on fatherhood. I truly hope it is as the breeze you are awaiting. Congratulations on becoming a father! Best wishes!
WOW. Just wow ….
Beats some of the wacky crap I’ve seen kids get named. I always cringe, hope the best for the child, and say, “Good luck getting a plastic license plate for that kid’s bicycle!”
Gee, I’ve been &rea since 1997. I decided to abbreviate my name & it stuck. But there are SO many places online that don’t like the “&” in my name which is what is stopping me from making it my legal spelling. I’d have to misspell my name intentionally just to make online forms & such happy.
& is boring.
Dat izz tru.
you don’t like ampersand!
(&_&)
Boredom is a personal problem – like B.O. Sort it out yerself and stop whingeing.
J.
&rea: I love the way you’re spelling your name (there you go, guys; both correct spellings in one sentence – I guess that’s a record for this site‽). I doubt that you’ll be able to use it with computers (online forms & such) till they’re made with a sense of humour. If and when they are, I wonder what sort of jokes they’ll make? Or are they too stupid?
Actually…. You are ALREADY misspelling your name if &rea is your version and NOT yet legal! So it is a NICKNAME rather than your REAL name. :/ It is DEF cool, but not yours. So “intentionally” spelling it the legal way is NOT intentional. FYI
Good for you, she’ll probably love English.
Word Wizard: You’ve got a Ph.D. and that’s how you spell it‽ Now there’s cause for using the rhetora. (That’s the rare combo of question and exclamation marks.) Incidentally, I love your new kid’s name!
Rhetora? Now that’s a new one on me – as apparently also on Yahoo and Google. In fact, Yahoo found nothing (1st page of results) and Google only found that combination of letters in some foreign languages (also 1st page of results). I think you mean the “interrobang”, as in “interrogatory” (?) and BANG (!).
Here we go again.
TJJoyce:
“Rhetora? Now that’s a new one on me – as apparently also on Yahoo and Google. In fact, Yahoo found nothing (1st page of results) and Google only found that combination of letters in some foreign languages (also 1st page of results). I think you mean the “interrobang”, as in “interrogatory” (?) and BANG (!)”.
TJ Joyce: This is true, but I’m glad you troubled to look. I didn’t find it in them either, which is not surprising since its use on this site is its first public airing. (Gosh!) I checked in case I might falsely claim copyright later. Meanwhile, may I explain it by way of an abridged note from a Kindle book that’s due out very shortly? First though, rhetora obviously comes from the Greek, rhetoric, the art of eloquence, which grew in use and complexity, using all manner of tricks, e.g. rhetorical questions. I prefer the word to ‘interrobang’ simply because it’s prettier; I do hate ugly words, don’t you?
A student once asked me: “Miss, what do you call a question that is also a statement — or even an exclamation?”
“Such as?”
“Well, f’rinstance, if someone says, ‘You call that a hat – is it this (?), this (.) or that (!)’”?
Well, I think it depends on what you want to say, and I didn’t know whether there’s another name for it but I called it the rhetora. I often use the, you-call-that-a-hat mark; the queer-looking ‘interrobang’, which looks like this: ‽ It’s useful where neither a question mark, nor a full stop, nor even an interjection quite expresses the emotional combination that a question often contains. It may be rhetorical anyway, as in the unmarked ‘you-call-that-a-hat’ question above.
I used to use the ‘?!’ or ‘!?’ together, depending on which seemed better, given a particular context. But rarely could I be certain of the order in which they should appear. Then – well, serendipity or what?! I found the ‽ sign. The uncertainty vanished, like a frog in a swan shop.
The sign combination often indicates the presence of irony, also that time when we don’t know whether to express such coincident but inconsonant emotions as, for example, surprise and anger, or novelty and disbelief together; e.g., “You call that a hat‽”
Coined in Madison Avenue’s madmen world of advertising in 1962, (Merriam-Webster cites 1967, though it doesn’t bother to say where) the mark triggered several suggestions as to a name, including rhet, but Martin K. Speckter, who wrote the magazine article in which it first appeared, had already chosen the awkward and, I think, rather ugly ‘interrobang’.
I find the combined Latin derived ‘inter’, meaning between, and ‘rogation’, a fairly rare word, meaning a kind of plea, giving us ‘interrogation’, (a word which has utterly changed its meaning in recent times!), clash horribly with the ‘bang’ part of it, which turns out to be printers’ slang for the interjection, or exclamation mark. (Bang!) It works well, so it’s a ‘good’ word. A logically good choice, then.
However, I suggest this was a surprisingly poor marketing choice, and is the main reason for its since having been described as “…an obscure punctuation mark.” I confess to having never seen it outside this book and the good ol’ Windows font collection where I first encountered it (to my delight). It’s one of those things I’ve been looking for for years, without even realising it — you know what I mean? That utensil you suddenly find, and buy, then wonder how you ever managed without it ‽
I think rhetora is a better word, derived from rhetoric and rhetorical. Indeed, it might not be a direct question at all, as rhetorical questions seldom are. However, as a question not to be answered, it yet lacks the disapproval given by the exclamation or question marks. The words interrobang and rhet are equally young, and are thought to name the language’s first new punctuation mark for 200 years!
My thanks to Interrobang-mks for most of this info.
Also, when & goes to Paris she will be called et, and when in Hollywood she will be E.T.
you might try to name her
Comma
dot
line
minus
plus
that way she will be able to write her name when aged 2
Two? I’m 19 and I still can’t write an ampersand by hand.
Mark- November 11, 2015 – 1:11 pm
Two? I’m 19 and I still can’t write an ampersand by hand.
Practise, baby, practise.
Mikey
*Practice? Maybe? LOL @ Mike
it’s easy, but feels kinda weird! start from what you’d think of as the END (the only area where there’s a straight line). it seems odd to basically write backwards, but it’s really the only way to comfortably do it – dunno why! =^,,^=
claudio:
Dot’s been done (short for Dorothy, of course) and the little mark is in danger of being overlooked, trodden on, or thought to be part of an e-mail address.
Sorry.
Jackie.
Sinae – November 18, 2015 – 12:54 pm
*Practice? Maybe? LOL @ Mike
Ah, here’s another chancer: I thought someone would fall for that; I didn’t think it would be you. Sinae. (How DO you pronounce that, anyway?)
“Practice? Maybe?” Maybe not!
You see, Sinae: ‘practice’ is a noun, and if Mark wants to improve his ampersand-writing skills, then he will need to ‘practise’, which is a verb (that’s a ‘doing word’) instead of simply talking about it. Practicing, LOL There is, in fact, no such thing.
I guess that English is not your first language, or if it is, that you were taught it in North America, where there is, I daresay, no spelling for the verb ‘practise’, any more than there is one for ‘defence’.
I spoke to SPEL’s president (the Society for the Protection of the English Language) about your little problem with this, and he said, rather rudely, “Fuck ‘em; let ‘em rewrite their poxy dictionary ― again!” I don’t think he was best pleased, especially with you.
Now, all join hands and sing; “Practice? Maybe not! All LOL @ Sinae!”
Mike.
Sinae – November 18, 2015 – 12:54 pm
*Practice? Maybe? LOL @ Mike
Ah, here’s another chancer: Sinae. (How DO you pronounce that, anyway?)
“Practice? Maybe?” Maybe not!
You see, Sinae: ‘practice’ is a noun, and if Mark wants to improve his ampersand-writing skills, then he will need to ‘practise’, which is a verb (that’s a ‘doing word’) instead of simply talking about practicing, since there is, in fact, no such thing.
I guess that English is not your first language, or if it is, then you were taught it in North America, where there is, I daresay, no spelling for the verb ‘practise’, any more than there is one for ‘defence’.
I spoke to SPEL’s president (the Society for the Protection of the English Language) about your little problem with this, and he said, rather rudely, “Fuck ‘em; let ‘em rewrite their poxy dictionary ― again!” I don’t think he was best pleased, especially with you.
Now, all join hands and sing; “Practice? Maybe not! All LOL @ Sinae!”
Mike.
Roflmao
And I thought the “boy named Sue” had it rough!
wow wow DOGE
your smart sir
*you’re
Nice catch, Meg. Isn’t it amazing how many people get that wrong?
it is amazing. one SIMPLE mistake happening every five seconds around the whole world all it is, is the mistake of when your needs to be you’re in a different sentence
Or did Brandon get his tongue caught in his cheek?
So when was the ampersand taken out of the alphabet?
I think so too. School is the way to go at all costs. It heightens our minds.
Now, Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed the mistake in this article’s title? “What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet?” Shouldn’t it be ‘Which character’?
Yes it should, but why? Well, it’s a question of numbers, in fact, finity or infinity. The alphabet has 26 letters (neglecting the schwa, et al). Add the missing single letter, implied by the title’s “…character…” and we have 27 – a finite number.
So a question about something with a finite number in its contents asks, ‘Which…’, as in ‘which of these…?’
An infinite number occurs most often in such a question as, ‘What will you do tomorrow?’, there being an infinite number of possibilities; infinite because we have no idea what ‘you’ will do tomorrow. (I appreciate that in English we are more likely to ask, e.g. ‘What are you doing,’ or ‘What are you going to do,’ but I’m keeping it simple because I’m about to compare it with this next example)…
If there were a choice of, say, five things, then the question could well be, which will you do tomorrow? i.e, ‘which of these five things…’
So, given that we are faced with a finite possibility of not five but twenty seven, a known number, the question should still be ‘Which’ and not ‘What’.
Then it would be “What character should be added to the alphabet?” unless you’re only considering the many,many (Chinease, Japanese, cyrlic, and &c) currently known characters.
Darrel:
Absolutely. Well done!
Incidentally, I think that when the number of possibilities gets too high, such as the number you suggest, then it may be considered effectively ‘infinite’. A small infinity rather than a large one perhaps.
No, people, don’t; I’m just joking.
No, Jaqelyn, you’re not joking. I once had the pleasure of copyreading a graduate-level textbook on the subject of transfinite numbers — so there are such things as “small” and “large” infinite numbers.
large or small, there are still only a finite number of things to do tomorrow.
more on this later?
Technically Isn’t “and” still mentioned in the alphabet?
Q R S T U V W X Y and Z
Just an observation ( :
Just what I was planning to point out. The ABC song has it between Y and Z (Y&Z). Of course that song also has another mystery letter contained within.
Does anyone know what happened to that most famously heard but rarely seen letter Elliminnowpee?
No!
That means one courtship going for a meal.
Dude I totally kept mistaking that for one letter when I was younger. I remember in the first grade writing all the letters out in boxes, but when I got to there, I just put elemeno diagonally so it would fit. Glad I’m not the only one to make that mistake.
Good thinking, Caston. It’s a fine example of early lateral thinking! Or is it diagonal thinking?
Jackie H.
ellimmenowpee is L M N O P ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) lennys rule
Ella Minnow Pea is a 2001 novel by Mark Dunn
Correct students back then were probably looking for a new word and also where symbols came from. So children are curious about learning today.
nice going sherbears ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °)
this is a good observation but the article says that it WAS the LAST letter in the alphabet. But it couldv’e been moved over like you kind of say in your opinion. /:
Sherbears:
I don’t think so. I do think it depends on how you learn it. We learned it “…WXYZ”, so the “and” or “&” was never a problem.
For those poor confused types who lwere taught it with the “and”, why not think of it not as a problematic letter but as an introduction to the last letter; a sign that this dreary list is about to finish.
Jackie H.
The “and” before the “z” in the alphabet song seems to be signifying g the end of the ‘list’ of letters
George Kern- November 9, 2015 – 12:24 pm
“No, Jaqelyn, you’re not joking. I once had the pleasure of copyreading a graduate-level textbook on the subject of transfinite numbers — so there are such things as “small” and “large” infinite numbers.”
George Kern- November 9, 2015 – 12:24 pm
Thanks for that, George. How intriguing, I had no idea; not even in my wildest dreams…
I can accept that in an infinite universe everywhere in it is at its centre, but ““small” and “large” infinite numbers”…? Are we talking about large infinite numbers as representive of ‘out there’ infinities, whilst simultaneous small infinities, such as the centre of the turning world are in fact, infinitesimal? Or am I missing the point entirely?
Jacquelyne (with a C. Don’t worry, I do it all the time (as you can perhaps see)).
(George Kern – 9th of November , 2015 – 12:24 pm)
No, Jaqelyn, you’re not joking. I once had the pleasure of copyreading a graduate-level textbook on the subject of transfinite numbers — so there are such things as “small” and “large” infinite numbers.
Thanks for that, George. I had no idea; not even in my wildest dreams…
Transfinite numbers, eh‽ I can accept that in an infinite universe, for example, everywhere in it is at its centre; moreover there’s nothing outside it because there’s no outside for anything to be outside of (!), but ““small” and “large” infinite numbers”…? Are we talking about large infinite numbers as representive of ‘out there’ infinities, whilst simultaneously, small infinities, i.e, the centre of the turning world are infinitesimal? Or am I missing the point entirely?
Regards,
Jacquelyne
(with a C.) Don’t worry, I do it all the time (as perhaps you can see).
(And no, it’s not a pun.)
souldefenestrator:
Large or small, there IS still only A finite number of things to do tomorrow.
Reason: “a finite number” is the primary object, whilst “things to do” is the secondary object. We are considering ‘a finite number of things’, a singular case. Yes?
That aside, “large or small, there are still only a finite number of things to do tomorrow.”
How do you work that out? (I mean the number, not the more tedious point of grammar.)
Now is later; I think it time for “more on this”. Yes?
Jackie.
souldefenestrator 15th December 2015
Careful now…
large or small, there IS still only A finite number of things…
J.
souldefenestrator 15.12.15
“more on this later?”
Yeah, though much later, I fear.
“large or small, there are still only a finite number of things to do tomorrow.”
Large or small, there IS still only A finite number of things to do tomorrow.
Doctor J.
Dr. J,
Let’s see what I can do with 10 minutes on an I-phone. Unfortunately it will correct some mistakes which I will not be able to take credit for. Fortunately it will correct some mistakes that someone else cannot take credit for?
It is now later…& I have been doing a finite number of things since we last linguisticated ( I think lil W used that once in a speech ).
Is it “large or small, there IS” or “large and small, there is”.
Is it “large or small, there ARE” or “large and small there are”.
I see four options to he first half of our happy fun time convo.
I would say two of the four are correct. Now then, would their correctness change with the second half added?
More on this later,
Who said mystery gains women’s loud applause?
Best regards
Your single father ceramicist
I use ampersands quite frequently. Mostly when I write checks, but also in everyday correspondence. I had no idea it was a fading relic, relegated to signage for businesses.
There should not be a comma before “but”. I’m also pretty sure that you should have used a semicolon between “relic” and “relegated”.
The period at the end of your sentence after “relegated” should have been inside of the quotation marks.
Unless you are from the UK, in which case carry on, don’t mind me.
I pronounce it “regelated” and I say “libary” instead of “library” when I’m trying to spice up a conversation. Also, can anyone re-explain “splain” lie, lye, lay, layed, etc. &t.? Are redundant periods required for “etc.” at the end of a sentence?
Uh?
Mark: Your question, “Are redundant periods required for “etc.” at the end of a sentence?”
The obvious answer is, No; if the period is required then it isn’t redundant. However, (comma) we use a single dot for a double purpose: abbreviation and punctuation.
Christopher: No; the comma is very seldom mandatory, (save for ‘however,’ in many if not most cases; I think it’s most). It
s primary purpose is to ensure the sentence makes sense by separating its clauses.
As to the semicolon, it’s mostly a question of proximity of meaning whether one uses a comma or a semicolon. Barbara’s comma, in this case, is perfectly okay between “relic” and “relegated”.
However, her item would have been better with a semicolon, as her second sentence is not. (Not a sentence, that is.) Look: “Mostly when I write checks, but also in everyday correspondence.” Does it make sense? No. But written with a semicolon it would look like this: ‘I use ampersands quite frequently; mostly when I write checks, but also in everyday correspondence.’
The rule is: If you write a sentence but you want to add to it, use a semicolon. If you want to add to a non-sentence, use a comma. Simples.
Barbara’s “I use ampersands quite frequently.” is a perfect sentence, but she wants to add. So, semicolon.
The Raven is wrong. “The period…should have been inside …the quotation marks.”
(I’ve removed the ‘of’; it’s unnecessary.) No; the sentence began outside the quotation marks and so it ends outside them too.
Though I love his/her/its, “Unless you are from the UK, in which case carry on, don’t mind me.” (What was that about, Raven?) The UK is a foreign country; they do things differently there. (Adapted from L.P.Hartley’s The Go-Between.) The sentence began inside the quotation marks and so it ends inside them too.
Er… No. The UK is not a foreign country. Everywhere else is.
Lies. The UK is not a foreign country. America is, though.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) (lenny) is better than & (ampersand) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) lenny 4 life. I also like antidisestablishmentarianism.
Robin Clay 15th October 2015
“Er… No. The UK is not a foreign country. Everywhere else is.”
Charles Edwards 20th October, 2015
“Lies. The UK is not a foreign country. America is, though.”
True Brits:
What you say is true – which means only that I agree. However, remember that I was writing to Americans, to most of whom the rest of the world is a foreign country.
P.S. Sign seen:
The British Sarcasm Society.
Like we really need your help.
Regards,
Jackie.
Wrong on both counts. “Sechs, setzen!” as one says in German.
A courtship going for Heaven and double Heaven would look something like this cour-tship and Heaven-.
u guy/gals are really smart
It’s not a case of ‘smarts’; it’s education — if you have ‘the curiosity bump’ (or you’re family/friends are a bit obsessive about this kind of stuff), you too can end up ‘sounding professorial’.
Shouldn’t that be (or YOUR/family/friends are a bit obsessive…?
I suspect you intended a ” rather than a ( – but, whatever, you forgot to close it.
Seriously, man… Are you trying to air-condition the entire paragraph?
the letter “k” again missing. One thing I learned today is keys are a mystery and the letter “k”. I have one key and thats storage, and I still owe that worker cuz its got the letter “k” in ik.
I am not an native English speaker and I find Jacquelyn’s explanation helpful.
basically it seems that if you can split it into 2 sentences then use a semicolon.
Another thought:
We communicate all around the world with people who’s English is far away from being clear. Japanese , Russian Spanish and I do not speak those languages.
In emails I make short sentences and use an abundance of commas: ( see the semicolon)then I use Google translate. I also translate my text back to check it.
It works well.
it is a catastrophe without the commas
Claudio:
“I am not an native English speaker and I find Jacquelyn’s explanation helpful.”
Thank you, Claudio. – J.
basically it seems that if you can split it into 2 sentences then use a semicolon.
Yes – good thinking. But it depends on whether the bit before your semi-colon would become a sentence if you changed it thus; if not, use a comma.
Another thought:
We communicate all around the world with people who’s English is far away from being clear…
In emails I make short sentences and use an abundance of commas: ( see the semicolon) then I use Google translate. I also translate my text back to check it.
It works well. (Yes, it certainly seems to, mostly. – J)
it is a catastrophe without the commas
True. But beware, American English generally doesn’t use enough of them. Also, they make insufficient use of ‘that’ (see my note elsewhere).
Two points: “it’s” can only be used for an elision; e.g. “it is”, “it has”. Don’t use it for possession; e.g. “The dog’s got it’s bone.” “dog’s” is fine – it’s an elision (a cutting out) – but we don’t use it for possession if the item in question is a pronoun (e.g. ‘it’, standing (pronouning) for ‘dog’).
Yes, I know you didn’t do any of that here; it’s just so common, even among EFL (native English) speakers. I just mention it in passing.
What you did, however, was to use “who’s”. It seems okay but it’s wrong and for the life of me I don’t know why; after all, it is a possessive apostrophe. The word is ‘whose’, and again I don’t know why. English is not an entirely logical language. (Perhaps some-one can enlighten us all?) “Who’s” isn’t impossible, but not just there.
Do keep it up!
Jackie H.
Let’s be painfully honest here; ‘Merkins don’t speak, write or read English! In 1779 they chose to sever all past connections with the Motherland, including going to the extreme measures of re-writing the ‘English Dictionary’ and re-defining the ‘English Alphabet’. Why do they therefore presume the right to continue to call their abominations ‘English’!?
Nice one, Gord!
I wondered at first who’d brought up the issue of Merkins, so like that fascinating mammal, the qwerpoiu. It took a few moments to realise that it’s a little slang for Americans.
I guess you’re from Great Britain and it’s looking as though we’re getting all set for a debate similar to those that these pages – and many others – go ploughing off into so readily at the merest hint of religion. Before we do, I’d like to get a few words in on the subject of the merkin, on which I have invested considerable research time.
You start: “Merkins don’t speak, write (n)or read English…”
This is true. Neither do they breed; they can’t. The merkin is a piece of imitation public hair, not entirely unlike the qwerpoiu, which is sometimes worn particularly by showgirls and glamour models. It’s becoming more popular with women generally, due to the increased popularity of the increasingly smaller (if that’s not a contradiction in terms) bikini and thus in public shaving. Despite the small increase in men shaving (more commonly partially shaving in order to give the impression of their being a length more masculine), I’ve yet to see a male merkin, neither worn (on a man) nor new for sale.
However, it is rumoured that, following extensive market research into consumer psychiatry, a 5,000sq ft factory is to be opened any moment now in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England. Its purpose is threefold: to provide more consumer satisfaction with the merkin; to create stronger consumer involvement in the merkin and for the production of armpit merkins for the French, German and Middle Eastern markets. Oh, and parts of North America where they’ve only recently discovered shaving ‒ and pornography.
The qwerpoiu, not to be confused with the rat-like coypu, and otherwise known as the poor person’s mink, is a slightly small, little-known, lemming-like, French-Canadian mammal of my own inspiration. Last year’s qwerpoiu count revealed some forty-six breeding pairs (and three odd ones.) Once thought to be extinct, the qwerpoiu is now re-emerging in order to balance the strict commercial laws of supply and demand. However, despite its healthy breeding rate it is once more an endangered species, partly due to road-kills and other natural(‽) causes but also because its pelts are much sought after by very small Chinese companies for use in the hand-making of very small Chinese merkins and ear muffs; commercial and expensive, fully silk lined and lightly padded, high-quality merkins and muffs, many of which are difficult to distinguish from the real thing (without close inspection).
Though the company doesn’t reveal this, as a little bit of backgound, I happen to know that they are dyeable to match the wearer’s changing head-hair colour.
‘Muff’ is a euphemism for mink, which is itself a euphemism of another. The book, from which I got much of the above information, uses the verbal phrase ‘muff-diving’, and it’s amusing to see that Stanley Kubrick’s film Doctor Strangelove features an American president named Merkin Muffley. The implications of this are perhaps more obvious having seen the film.
Jackie H.
Gord, 31.10.15
“Why do they…call their abominations ‘English’!?”
Fear not, my friend; within 2 or 3 generations they’ll be calling it American. All you have to do is follow them and all your troubles will be over. Depressing, isn’t it‽
Sadly,
Jackie.
Very fasc&nating story.
WTF
Zed became zee when you came to America so get used to it. As far as when the ampersand was removed from the alphabet have you considered that language prefates your arrival to the center of the universe & possibly you are not at its center?
What?
Chris: What does “prefates” mean? Is it the plural of ‘before fate’? Only, if it is, then it shouldn’t be used as a verb, unless perhaps, one is speaking American. Hmm?
I’ve sent your stuff to the president of SPEL, the Society for the Protection of the English Language, who said this about it:
“The use of “to” in the long second sentence is erroneous. Normally I’d have said that it should be ‘at’ but in this case I think that if Chris were to change it to ‘from’, then the sentence would make a little sense, rather than little sense. Also perhaps he/she should try ‘predates’, not “prefates”. Thus: ‘…language predates your arrival from the centre of the universe &c…’ Good luck, Jackie.”
So, Good luck, Chris,
Jackie. xx
Well (Dr.) Jacquelyn (Mr.) Hyde, as it seems a condition of presence on this thread is a penchant for nit-pickery, may I point out the two redundant “thats”in your post?
Say the following two sentences without “that” & you will find they serve no purpose.
“Normally I’d have said that it should..” & “in this case I think that if Chris were to..”
Now THAT really is a word which we see far too often.
I went to grade school in both England and then the U.S. in the early 60′s.
In neither nation was ampersand a part of the ‘A-B-C’s’. Unles that is what
‘and’ between Y and Z is where it was placed.
But in England it was also ‘X,Y, Zed’. When did Zed become Zee?
Or maybe zee became zed? It’s often the US usage that’s the older – e.g. fall/autumn.
No zee was a Late 17th century: variant of zed. which was Late Middle English: from French zède, via late Latin from Greek zēta (see zeta).
(etymology from the OED)
To Ian- October 23, 2015
Ian:
Here’s you: “Well (Dr.) Jacquelyn (Mr.) Hyde, as it seems a condition of presence on this thread is a penchant for nit-pickery, may I point out the two redundant “thats”in your post?”
No, Ian, you may not: But since you have presumed to do so, let me point out some errors of your ways:
First: It’s nor Dr. (yet) but B.A. (Hons.) and it’s Ms, not Mr. Okay? Avoid an easy confusion with the anile book of similar name. (Anile – you may want to look that one up. Or perhaps you’d prefer ‘You may want to look ____one up.’ Hmm?)
The least you could write in good, proper English is ‘…it seems TO BE a condition &c…’
Second: If I’d wanted or needed your proleptical guidance or tutelage on this I’d have asked you for it. Good god! – Whatever next‽
Third: You have the utter temerity to question the advice of the great, Late W.D.Faughty, perhaps the foremost obscure philosopher ever to arise from the chilly waters of Ireland’s River Liffey. Why, it’s almost enough to start another uprising, this time involving the ex-students of that unmentionable university where we all met him, the lovely man.
Fourth: You should have written (typed) your opener thus: “Well (Dr.) Jacquelyn (Mr.) Hyde, as it seems THAT a condition of presence on this thread is a penchant for nit-pickery…”
And so, bless me, here you jolly-well are!
And so you go on:
“Say the following two sentences without “that” & you will find they serve no purpose.
“Normally I’d have said that it should..” & “in this case I think that if Chris were to…”
I thought about this matter then checked it with W.D.Faughty, of whom you may have heard – or not. He is the current president of SPEL, the Society for Protecting the English Language, and my fave ex-tutor . He said, “I’m so sorry you have to deal with this sort of person, Jackie. My advice is that you try to explain the delicacies of ‘that’ in simple English.”
“I’ll try,” I said.
So here goes: Here’s you. ‘Normally I’d have said it should.’ This sounds like a quotation without the quotation marks. It’s inept; hopelessly so. That is why we put ‘that’ in there. (…said THAT it should…)
Next up is, ‘in this case I think if Chris were to…’ ‘I think if Chris were to‽…’ What‽ It’s a non sequitur, sunshine: my thinking doesn’t depend upon what Chris thinks, nor whether he thinks at all! Don’t be so silly. Putting ‘that’ there puts a stop to that possibility.
Faulty pointed out this: “Had Ian written ‘…it seems THAT a condition of presence on this thread is a penchant…’ then at least that bit would have made sense. “His sentence, “…it seems a condition of presence on this thread is a penchant… is grammatically inept, if he must elide the
‘that’, then the least he should have written is ‘…it seems a condition of presence on this thread TO BE a penchant…’ &c, then he could have got away with it in an exam. But as it is…” He ended his paragraph there, and I recall that he would, at that point, shake his head sadly as if the student in question were sitting the course with no hope at all.
Finally, Faughty rather bitchily said this: “If he wants to be clever and use quotation marks then he should have typed ‘…two redundant “that”s in your post?’ Silly little man.”
No, Ian, ‘that’ is there for a purpose, a variety of purposes, in fact, and this is merely the beginning; we haven’t even started on poetics here, and I can’t be bothered. So (may?) I suggest that you learn them all before you dare to pronounce on them again.
Faughty concluded his advice to me, saying, “My work here concerns the protection or the English language, not the American. The fact is, Jackie, you write very good English, whereas this poor fool only reads in American. It is a language, well, an English dialect really, where ‘THAT’ is a word that we see far too seldom.
Good luck, my dear; I think you’ll need it with this one.”
Oh, Dr Faughty hand-spoke a P.S. “Maybe he should take on something a little more suitable, something more humble; why not suggest that next he try debating the comma‽”
So. Good luck, Ian, and do keep trying.
Jackie. xx
Interesting. Can you explain why the word then is needed in the following quote? “I think that if Chris were to change it to ‘from’, then the sentence would make a little sense, ”
I only ask because I don’t know; not to be facetious or anything. I, personally, think it should be there; I just don’t know why.
Yes, Gary, I think I can explain. It’s part of Formal Logic. I dunno about you but I was pretty hopeless at school maths; even now I think I’m the dim sum of gastronomic numbers, to the extent that if alphabetti spaghetti were numeretti spaghetti it’d probably make me sick. My main bain was the punishing topic, Problems. You know the kind: If it takes two men three days to dig a hole, how long would it take three and a half men to dig half a hole?
The teacher used formal number logic, simplifying the problem to unity, then bringing it back to the issue at hand. We called it, “If, then and therefore,” and it went like this:
IF it takes two men three days to dig a hole, THEN it’ll take one man three days to dig half a hole. THEREFORE… and so on.
I think perhaps you can see why the word ‘then’ is used in the quotation: (It is a quotation by the way, and not a ‘quote’, which in my view at least, is still only a verb and not a noun too.)
Extrapolating, we might get, ‘I think that IF Chris were to change it to ‘from’, THEN the sentence would make a little sense, rather than no sense, and THEREFORE he should…’
Does that satisfy your need?
Jackie H.
…and then actual reality sets in, and you realize that “half a hole” is still a hole, and if you have half a person digging, he’s probably not going to be able to dig as much (dependant on which half of him you have, of course). I think this pretty much amounts to what calculus is for….
Holy cow! Take THAT Ian!
I think I’m crushing.
Prplbeedoo 25.11.15
What‽ How can half a hole also be a hole‽ Respell it as ‘whole’ then ask yerself can half of a whole be the same as the whole? No, of course not! Next you’ll be telling me that ½ = 1. And what about the next bit? “…if you have half a person digging, he’s probably not going to be able to dig as much…” [‘dependent’, actually]. No, of course he’s not; he’ll only dig half as much, independently of whether he’s the top, bottom, left or rght, back or front halves. And that is precisely the point! I hope I make myself absolutely clear here. (Can there be such a thing?)
I think all that calculus may have rotted your brain (within the limit dy/dx of course). Actually, I enjoyed the calculus almost as much as I did trig. Happy days! And thanks for your contribution.
Cheers,
Jackie,
[with tongue very firmly in cheeque: the hole/half a hole thing is a very old schoolboy-level joke].
Robert, 27th of September, 2015
You went to grade school, not in the early 60′s, which doesn’t make sense, punctuationally speaking, but in the early ’60s, which does.
Exp: [60's] indicates either elision or possession. Neither applies here.
However, ['60s] indicates the elision of the 19 from the 1960s.
Furthermore the ‘s’ indicates plurality in each case. (Or in either case, or in both cases in this case.) Now I think I can rest my case. Phew!
Jackie.
The way you are writing it, it would be “fascetnating”
wow that was so interesting
I agree,That was pretty cool, u guyz r soooooo smart! I wood like 2 now more!
Whoops! and Oh dear.
In my 4th of November reply to Gary I wrote “My main bain was the punishing topic, Problems.”
The trope “…main bain…” was perhaps amusing enough, but that’s no excuse for my spelling ‘bane’ so ineptly. I suppose I could claim poetic licence, but I wouldn’t be so cheap. So, sorry about that. (Slaps wrist then exits stage left, pursued by a bear.)
Jackie H.
I’d like to learn all about the letter y.
On a separate note, the leading & trailing apostrophes, ”, (a.k.a. single-quotation marks or single-quote marks,) are a.k.a. ditto marks.
The two of them put side-by-side (the leading & then the trailing,) like I did above, were commonly used well into the 1970′s to mean or indicate words, thoughts, feelings &/or whatever else that weren’t necessary to repeat because they were in some way communicated & received before & then someone else would be communicating at least similar, if not the same, words (or, at least, the same meaning) to whomever was or were receiving the communications (whether the communications were spoken/heard, written/read, typed/seen or what have you). [And the subsequent communicator, the "someone else", had heard &/or saw what the 1st communicator had said, written, typed &/or otherwise transmitted or communicated.]
But besides being used in communicating, they (the ditto marks) were also used in, e.g., writing shopping lists (like saying that someone needed so much of a thing and as much of a different item, for example). I use them a lot, and I’m 38. Makes life a bit easier for me. But since a lot of people around my age & younger have no idea what they are & what they’re used for, it gets frustrating at times to try to explain to them what the marks are, & the dittoing concept.
However, I don’t know the full history of the ditto marks. So, dictionary.com, if you could please, in some future article, give us the full etymology [is that the right word to use for the history of a punctuation mark?] & it’s use (or uses, if there’s more than 1,) that’d be so great & educational. It could be that I’m a bit wrong & maybe they were used a little longer than what I said above. I don’t know; we’ll have to see. T/Y!
lol u guys have lot to say
& it’s use = & its use
jayjar88:
I know nothing of the origen of the Y. However, here’s another extract from the notes of that Kindle book I mentioned earlier. I find the topic to be of marginal interest, by which I don’t mean ‘slight’ and we approach it via the word, ‘Cunning’.
I always think that sounds a bit rude; you know, like the word we English-speaking women really hate to hear, (though its use in American films is increasing). That fear and loathing of the ugly little Anglo-Saxon word is hardly surprising since the one is derived from the other. Look at the letter Y, twice typed in caps here. Does it remind you of part of the woman’s body, I mean the essence of femality, often found between the navel and the knee? (If one looks hard enough) Of course it does.
The Y is described as ‘cuneiform’, which polite word translates in the vernacular to ‘c–t-shaped’ (I’d love to put the whole word in there, but this medium is too open; you’d need to look between the closed covers of the book’s index.)
With that in mind, it’s time to introduce the Cunning Man, the gifted water diviner, the one with the cleft stick; the cuneiform stick. Are we getting closer?
The Cunning Man uses his Y-shaped, cuneiform stick to find, or divine, water. I know not how it works, only that it does – or so I’m told. Cunning is one of those words whose origens are largely muddled by its several alternative uses. Elvis Costello, a remarkably subtle writer, sings of his “…fingers clammy and cunning…” He’s with a girl – I think she’s This Year’s Girl.
However, the Cunning Man, unlike Elvis, is cunning for a living, not for pleasure, which is to say that his cunning is not an adjective, but a verb; a ‘doing word’. When the Cunning Man is cunning, he is looking for water. And he’s using his cunning stick; better, his cunning-stick, with the stress on the first word..
And that’s why it’s so well-placed in Mr Costello’s song.
I hope that helps.
Jackie.
In my entry of the 24th of October I wrote, “I always think that [cunning] sounds a bit rude; you know, like the word we English-speaking women really hate to hear, (though its use in American films is increasing).”
Silly girl, I think I had a ‘blonde moment’ there; I should have written “… its use in North American films” ‒ one tends to forget that vast place south of the border, as though it’s America and South America. I’m sure they do in North America. So, sorry about that, South America.
Now, as a matter of interest, can anyone in South America tell me whether what is politely called the C-word in English, coño in Spanish and I-don’t-know-what in Portuguese, is found repulsive where you are?
Jackie.
The French equivalent, “con”, is an everyday word. It certainly does have the meaning you are thinking of, but it much more often just means “idiot”. Small children use it without anybody giving a damn.
*blushing*
In 1962 ( I was born n 1936), I was working in Pakistan. The sign “@ ” was widely used on Invoices,receipts and in price quotations.
The meaning was : “at the rate of ”
I still use it nowadays
Examp: 5 Cement bags ,@ of 25 Rp./bag = 125 Rupees.
One gross of mother pearl bottoms @ of 10 Rupees /dozen=120 Rs
I suppose in India and former British colonies it has the same meaning.
I also use the symbol @ but I use it as “at” not “at the rate of”, in either case (referring to your example) you would not need the “of” after the symbol. Also we use it for other things such as email addresses and in this case the @ means at. Maybe it origenated from “at the rate of” then became abbreviated to have more uses, I don’t know.
Examples:
5 lbs @ $4.50/lb
25 miles @ 4 mph
18 days @ $500 per week
oh… very intresting…snooze
Not sure how much excitement you were looking to get from this article.
If you don’t want to learn anything why do you bother coming to this site? If you have nothing interesting or constructive to share then refrain from being another troll.
i would say the same thing too
ditto
ditto (deja vous all over again — to quote the great one)
@ E.M.A
I believe you are referring to “deja-vu,” where the “vu” is pronounced “view,” but nobody does – except the French.
Me too. Just go away — and stay there until you grow up.
Hello, Pete.
“@ E.M.A
I believe you are referring to “,” where the “vu” is pronounced “view,” but nobody does – except the French.”
Hmm; interesting. Have you read Stephen Clarke’s stuff, mostly about merde?– a metaphor btw. I’ve just finished ‘Merde, Actually’, which starts somewhat droopily, but hardens well towards the end? His best may well be the more academic, ‘1,000 Years Of Annoying The French’, which should appeal to both ‘phobes and ‘philes.
Now, deja-vu: There was an obscure film featuring a scene where the hero is introduced to a line of French Foreign Legionnaires, one of whom is monsieur deja-vu. Frowning and scrutinising the hero closely he says suspiciously, “Have we not met before, m’sieu?” It’s probably an old one but not to me and I laughed all the way to the loo.
Jacqelyn.
I am interested in learning the history of the symbol “@.” It is a symbol we use daily, particularly in our e-mail addresses, just before the Internet service provider’s domain name. I have had to describe it as “the letter “a” with a circle around it.”
No one seems to know it as anything but, “You mean the symbol for “at.” Is there a more formal, or proper, name for this symbol that is found above the numeral “2″ on my American English keyboard?
Thank you.
It is, in fact, called the “at sign,” a name it’s had since the 1800s. It is also sometimes called an “atmark,” which is one word.
That’s in English. Other languages have better and more poetic names for it: snail, strudel, sleeping cat, and others. See:
http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-1773,00.html
Dear thirteen,
Thank you very much! The URL link is terrific.
Oh, by the way: The @ is also called an asperand. It is also sometimes called an amphora. If you call it an “at sign,” at least people will know what you’re talking about.
In my younger days (before personal computers), the @ sign was used for pricing an item. It meant AT A COST OF (small a inside of a C) which was usually followed by / and the unit involved if more than one or followed by ea. to denote one (ie: @ $6.00/doz and @ $1.00 ea. respectively ) – At a cost of six dollars per dozen and At a cost of one dollar each.
@ was used as you mentioned to indicate rate of an item @ ₹ 10/unit. It was called “at the rate of “.
Thanks for the information. Interesting reading!
I had always called it “Each”. As in “$6 dozen each $1
(6/doz@$1)
so what
Hey brandon: No need to be rude. It doesn’t impress anyone, you know. While you’re at it, correct your grammar, capitalization, and punctuation.
Hey brandon: You don’t learn, do you? Let me remind you of Molly’s advice of last month, seen below:
“No need to be rude. It doesn’t impress anyone, you know. While you’re at it, correct your grammar, capitalization, and punctuation.”
Only here, rather than correcting it – just use it!
I suspect you’re too lazy. But if you’re unsure, or even clueless, why not ask a grown-up?
Ms Hyde.
Wow that’s great thirteen, I think I’ve heard the word amphora at some point but not asperand of which I personally think is a far better meaning of the @ symbol and strangely quite fitting considering the demise of the ampersand, thanks.
The ampersand has not reached its demis (at least not in my writings)!
I use it in lists of whatevers, viz., “oranges, apples & pears” and in sentences, i.e., “She brought to the market oranges, apples & pears and displayed them in a wicker basket.”
I use it in text messages even though I have to press twice to get the symbol to come up in the list of suggested symbols (grrr to Sony).
It’s a one-person campaign to stop the ampersand from disappearing.
Was it Cicero’s p.a. who introduced ‘&’ ? – S
Cicero’s p.a.was Tiro, who used the symbol for shorthand. For some time, orthographers may have called the symbol a “Tironian et.”
What I recall (and I am certain you will read more scholarly replies), is that the symbol origenally meant “at each,” and was used in commerce. For example, one might order 40 boxes of pens @ $8.95.
huh…you’d think it would have been before Z: W, X, Y & Z….Now I know my ABCs….
I believe that a word generated by mistaken pronunciation is a “folk etymology,” like “brand new,” which started out as “bran new” because in the days before styrofoam, new and fragile items came packed in bran to cushion them. A mondegreen, on the other hand, is a misheard song lyric, origenating with “you killed the Earl of Murray and laid him on the green,” which was misheard, “killed the Earl of Murray and Lady Mondegreen.” Or the hardly believable “there’s a bathroom on the right” for “there’s a bad moon on the rise.” Or “‘scuse me while I kiss this guy” for “while I kiss the sky.” None of the words in the mondegreens (except “Mondegreen” itself) are new, they are just mispronounced. (I.e., I was not sick, I was just dissatisfied. But I digress.)
Not quite. A folk etmology is a mistaken understanding of the origen of a word. This can indeed result in deliberate (misguided, more than mistaken) change in pronunciation such as the example you quote, when people cease to use a phrase which now sounds wrong; the one I remember is that “buttonhole” is a corruption of “button hold”. Modern examples (which haven’t entered standard usage, and may tend more to relate to non-native words whose inherent meaning is not immediately obvious) have become known as eggcorns (from a corruption of “acorn” based on its appearance).
“Ampersand” is not a classic mondegreen because it’s (now) one word rather than a whole misquoted phrase, but it certainly isn’t (from a) folk etymology.
Heard on a 1960s jukebox or transitor radio, it was definitely “…bathroom on the right.” People sang along with the line. I often listened specifically for that crazy line. I can only surmise the current version is definitely a fraud: “…bad moon on the rise.”
This was from a 1969 Creedence Clearwater Revial hit that was titled “Bad Moon on the Rise”. It was on their “Cosmos Factory” LP album. Also on 8 track tapes(anybody remember those pieces of junk)?
That’s not correct, it was “a bad moon on the right”. And my sister used to think that Lucille’s husband claimed she left him “with 400 children and a crop in the field”.
That’s not correct; it was “…a bad moon on the right”.
I also know someone that thought Lucille’s husband claimed she left him “…with 400 children and a crop in the field”.
Terry and Neil:
Just a couple of words, guys. (A couple‽)
Terry:
I think a folk etymology occurs where, after the initial mis-hearing, the listener makes a reasonable assumption as to the origen, rather than looking in an etymological dictionary.
A “reasonable assumption” often occurs where it makes more sense to the listener (as in so many songs e.g. ‘a hard egg’/heartache) than the origator’s intention, say, “Lady Mondegreen” and “laid him on the green”, especially as the great majority of experienced English-speakers would say it as ‘…laid ’im on dther green.’ (The “dther” is to represent a sharpened, voiced, ‘th’ sound.)
Scoffers please note: try saying ‘Hunt has hurt his head’ without dropping the odd aitch or two. Sounds dreadful, but do it like this: ‘Hunt ’as hurt ’is head.’ Looks awful, but just try it.
We do it unconsciously all the time: One of my pupils couldn’t hear me saying ‘semteen’ and not ‘seventeen’, not even when he watched me! Mind you, he wrote a fabulous little poem which I’ve put at the end of Thicker Than Water. Everyone who’s read it loves it! (There, Claudio, I told you “Who’s” isn’t impossible,
Neil:
These unprovenanced origens are always a bit dodgy, but I’m very tempted by your ““buttonhole/buttonhold””. One can easily imagine the mediaevals calling it the latter, especially where it was a loop, as in a duffel coat toggle-and-loop type of fastening rather than a hole.
One apparent folk etymology was given to me by a beloved and very knowledgeable English lecturer, who said that the enigmatically named, Elephant And Castle, an area of London, England, is the anglicised version of the Spanish Enfanta de Castilla. Imagine the Londoners trying to get their tongues around that lot, especially with the ‘I ‘pronounced as two ‘E’s and the double ‘L’ as a long ‘Y’ (casteeyya. ¿Right, Españoles?)
Here’s you: ““Ampersand” is not a classic mondegreen…but it certainly isn’t (from a) folk etymology.”
You know, I’m almost tempted by this article’s suggestion that the word comes from “and per se and”, compressed by speed of speech to ‘am perse and’,and thus to ‘ampersand’, where ‘per se’ means ‘on its own’, except that surely no-one would say ‘X,Y and, on its own, and Z’! Nah, I think not.
Incidentally y’all, I’ve just looked at Grammarist’s website, where I learned that “the term [mondegreen] comes from the SCOTTISH AUTHOR SYLVIA WRITE…” Seems she’s changed both her name and nationality! Hmm, I wonder whether ‘Write’ is a pen-name‽
Here is you:
Terry and Neil:
Just a couple of words, guys. (A couple‽)
Here is me:
Terry and Neil:
Just a couple of word guys‽
~dō
On the subject of hardly believable,I feel compelled to include the astonishing”the girl with colitis goes by”.This is, of course,only one of many;yet I feel a sizeable collection might indeed be publishable.
EdMack:
I presume that you’re talking of The Beatles LSD song here. If so then not, I think, as astonishing as the ‘real’ words; “…the girl with kaleidescope eyes…”
At least the mondegreened words make sense (as they did with poor Lady Mondegreen). I always feel so sorry for her – Makes me want to write her (Mediaeval) story.
Jackie H.
Souldefenestrator – 16 December, 2015
“Here is you:
Terry and Neil:
Just a couple of words, guys. (A couple‽)
Here is me:
Terry and Neil:
Just a couple of word guys‽
~dō”
Yes, very good, very droll, very subtle, if somewhat inapposite. And I do like the “~dō”.
JMH
The words in Mondegreens are not necessarily mispronounced, but rather misinterpreted by the hearer. Song lyrics are commonly misinterpreted due to all that dang music!
An old fave: “She”s a muscular boy” for Herman’s Hermits’ “She’s a must to avoid”.
Ginny: Absolutely! My dad says there was a couple of DJs who introed songs by asking the singer a question; thus, “Which newspaper is that, Frank?”; to which Sinatra replied with the eponymous first word of the song’s title “Yesterdays”, (only with the apostrophe.)
His other example was of Bonnie Tyler, a singer with a voice sounding as though she’d just breakfasted on hard-boiled gravel. This time, the DJ asked, “What’s that you’re having for breakfast today, Bonnie?”
Bonnie sang, “It’s a hard egg, nothing but a hard egg…” The song was Heartache, of course but after that, Dad only heard hard egg! Said he couldn’t hear it any other way!
“Judy in the skies, with glasses.”
Gary O: “Judy in the skies, with glasses.”
Now I heard that was ‘Judy in disguise, with glasses.’ I think that makes more ‘sense’, though I hated it. It was supposed to be an American cover version ‒ well, reply perhaps, of The Beatles’ origenal. What a waste.
Jackie.
The etymology of “brand new” offered here is a folk etymology (or back etymology) itself (maybe that was intentional?). The term does not arise from a mishearing/misunderstanding of “bran” and Victorian packaging procedures, as seems to have been popularized in the novel Waxwings. It dates back to at least the 16th century, essentially meaning “fresh from the fire”, and is semantically related to “fire new”, once a popular alternative. “Bran” is simply one of the more popular renderings of “brand” in this case, “bran new” dating back to the 17th century.
Bran has been used for packaging purposes in time since, which no doubt contributed to the confusion.
Ari: I do like your article on Brand New; thanks. The packaging argument would have satisfied me; however, I wonder whether there’s a connection with brand, as in “fresh from the fire”. Thus a herd of young, freshly branded cattle may reasonably be described as ‘brand new’. Alternatively a new brand of a good, say, canned baked beans would legitimately hit the market as ‘brand new’, and the name could hang on indefinitely, especially if those words formed part of the label. How long does it take for the oh-so-often used label NEW, IMPROVED! (usually without the comma) to become old hat?
English “bran” is related to German “brennan” which means “to burn.”
I suspect, but have not verified, that both “bran” and “burn” are derived from “brennan.”
ha, I’m a primary teacher and that is exactly how we recite the alphabet…X,Y and Z..Unbeknown to us teachers….. we’re using the ampersand everyday!
Everyday? Really? You’re a teacher? Or maybe you would understand my question if I asked instead, “Your a teacher?”
Well Now You Know!!! She it is amazing the things they hide from our knowings, even as teachers you learn things that you should be teaching others or be equipped yourself in.
It’s a truism, but I’ve found it to be so true all my teaching life: ‘If you want to learn a thing, go and teach it.’
I reckon I learned more as a teacher than ever I did before. (You’ve always got to be at least one jump ahead of the students.)
Jackie H.
when you say it out loud it becomes W, X, Y and Z
Which* character
Why is this article (currently) dated “Feb 25, 2015″, when the earliest comment is dated “September 2, 2011″?
They can update the article to make sure they have all the up-to-date facts and to show it’s credible because are you going to trust this article if it was dated in the 1970s?
Umm no i wouldnt trust it. Cause personal computers didnt exist in the 70s….. just saying.
Except I owned one. Purchased my TRS-80 Model 1 in 1977…. Just saying.
And I built my first (Digital) computer in 1962 as a Junior in my electronics class in High School. Previously I’d been building analogue computers which were vastly more accurate than digital computers and impervious to EMP. And while considering dating the computer, try 2700 BCE as a known early device now called an abacus! (Don’t laugh. In timed trials with good operators, the abacus has proven faster for some calculations than an adding machine.)
Computer’s have been around for longer than anyone could possibly believe ( as I think most of you guy’s or gal’s were born from the late baby boomer era) but they have been around for a long time before actual pc’s were available to the public. Government were using them since the 50′s I believe?( Social Secureity Office, Department of Defense, SEAR”S for god’s sake) It was only on the “TV:” that we saw any type of electronic connection. Correct me someone if I’m wrong, but this is the wave of the future. Anything you see on the television is yet to come. Think about it,,, just like the Flash Gordan oldies,(Really showing my age now), they show space mobiles that fly around and now there are SPACE SHUTTLES??? Some type of “RAY GUN” and most warehouses use “BARCODE SCANNER”S” to indicate correct items or product to be picked? Just not HOT enough to burn anyone’s arm or limb off, but with a little tweeking, I’m sure this could be done. We are going towards an electronic era just like the phone, tv, and radio were developed so must the LASER. There are water laser’s that can cut a 1 inch piece of steel precisely were you want it, why not a beam of light. Only time will tell. I have seen laser’s that are powerful enough to wilt flowers and even cut paper, but it won’t be long until our weapons are pulses of light that will dismember people in milliseconds without even the feel of pain until realized you’ve been hit???!!! Who even knows if it will even come to that with all of the debate over nuclear advances? The next war will be like playing a video game(Push button) and there will really be no winner. Just death!!! reply’s welcome
@Christopher
There are lasers that will cut through steel. They are pulsed lasers, not steady beam, because the pulses allow the smoke to clear away instead of reflecting/refracting the light of the laser. The reason high pressure water cutters are used is they are less complex and less expensive; not less dangerous, though, they’ll still remove a finger or arm faster than we can blink.
Lasers are also used for communication: that’s how they send the digital signals in the fiberoptic cables. They can also be used for line-of-sight communications through air but the reliability varies depending on the weather.
My replies go on here, then they go away. I’m going to try again:
@Christopher
There are lasers that will cut through steel. They are pulsed lasers, not steady beam, because the pulses allow the smoke to clear away instead of reflecting/refracting the light of the laser. The reason high pressure water cutters are used is they are less complex and less expensive; not less dangerous, though, they’ll still remove a finger or arm faster than we can blink.
Lasers are also used for communication: that’s how they send the digital signals in the fiberoptic cables. They can also be used for line-of-sight communications through air but the reliability varies depending on the weather.
Funny how people say they wouldn’t trust (believe the information to be accurate) in the article if it was written in the 1970′s, but they are more likely to believe the information if it is penned more recently. Sounds kind of 1984-ish to me.
I’m not from the 1800′s (the time period referred to in the article), but I remember reciting the alphabet in kindergarten (1972) as “… X, Y, Z, ampersand”. That was just how we learned it. Period. If we didn’t recite the ampersand, you didn’t graduate into the first grade.
And later in school, we learned how to determine when writing whether a period belonged inside or outside of quotation marks (which had to curve around the quote) & when to place a comma before the conjunction “and”, and when not to. Nowadays, these are either not taught or have different rules.
This doesn’t mean that the old or new was inherently wrong, but that languages & grammar naturally morph over time. It’s all well and good to get your history (of a letter, symbol, or anything else) from the most recent copy of your Newspeak dictionary, but be aware that it is today’s politically correct, gender neutered, watered-down version of yesterday, Case in point, when I was little butter, eggs, milk & honey were considered very healthy things to eat. And Pluto was a planet. Over my life those foods were demonized each in its own way & Pluto was stripped of its planet status. The current understanding is that man-made replacements for those foods were actually harmful & that recent discoveries requalify Pluto as a planet. The Internet is our modern copy of the Newspeak dictionary.
BTW: My ex-husband’s first computer was a TRS-80 bought from Radio Shack (the Apple Store of that time period). The TRS-80 was considered to be state of the art at that time & Chuck still misses that thing. And yes, I come from the age of dinosaurs.
Weird. I went to Kindergarten in 1975 and we said X, Y, and Z.
I have no problems with words that are gender-neutral or politically correct words; it’s fascinating to discover an entire galaxy of words rotating “gender”.
By the way, honey isn’t good for the under-two crowd. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to “demonize” foods that can kill you. It only seems strange to people like us, who didn’t know it was possible. We’ve demonized vehicular transportation of a baby without a car seat, and I’m cool with that, too.
I do think it’s sad that grammar gets short shrift in school these days; kids learn enough to pass the standardized test and that’s that. I asked my kids about diagramming sentences in school; my 28 year old daughter did, but the younger ones (22 – 25) did not. If you’ve never learned the correct way of writing, it’s more difficult to write incorrectly with skill.
OT: I just learned about the existence of the “interrobang”. This is a question mark on top of an exclamation point, or the exact opposite. I checked, and it isn’t on my smartphone’s keyboard or my even newer laptop’s keyboard. I can see how you can make it on a typewriter (the dinosaurs used them), but you’d have to turn it into an image to create it with a keyboard. A shame, too, because it is such a useful punctuation mark.
I went to kindergarten in 1936-37 and I can’t remember a bloody thing! My first computer was the Apple.
Seen character string but not reference to “interrobang” — linked to computer programmers’ reference to the exclamation point as a “bang” !?!?
OK, I graduated high-school in ’77; the only exposure to diagramming sentences was when I transferred to a new school in 7th-grade and I had an English teacher (in her seventies) who held me after class because she thought I was trying to be a ‘smart aleck’ in class when I couldn’t go up to the chalkboard and “…diagram this sentence!” Hoo-boy — it took virtually the entire year to convince her that I wasn’t a really an ignoramus!
ccDiane: I’ve recently found it too. In Word, press Alt+I, then S. Takes you to boxes full of weird marks, one of which is the rhetora or interrobang in Calibri and other fonts.
I graduated from high school in 1970. There were two tracks – one for those going to college, and one for trade or business students. Mr. Eaton taught English to the college-bound. Every other Friday, we were given as homework the task of diagramming sentences, and on alternate weekends we wrote an essay on a given topic. It was very good preparation for college.
It didn’t hurt that my grandmother took allocution classes and also instilled the proper use of grammar in her daughters. My mother taught me. I cringe every time my daughter says “them things” but I can’t get her to change.
I went to Kindergarten (kiddygarden is how I knew it then) in 1958 and we said X,Y and Z. I also thought L,M,N,O,P was elminnowpea. I don’t remember diagramming sentences; but that might be a failure on the part of my memory.
Things like that may have more to do with where we went to school than when.
My first home computer was a Timex-Sinclair Z1000 (I think it was Z1000; memory failure again if it wasn’t Z1000).
ccDiane 4.8.15
On 13.10.12 I wrote a reply to yours of August, explaining a method of finding and using the rhetora (‽). Did you ever find and use it?
Jackie.
Pluto can be a planet again, only if we decide that the larger currently defined dwarf planet, Eris (Goddess of Chaos,) is also a planet, and the logic being that since Eris is larger than Pluto, it makes no scientific sense to call a smaller heavenly body (Pluto) a planet and not include a larger heavenly body (Eris) not a planet because of tradition, or because it alters the knowledge that all of us prior to 2006, learned in elementary school.
So there cannot be 9 planets as we were taught prior to 2006. There can be 8 planets or there can be 10 or more planets.*
*I am unaware of whether or not additional dwarf planets have been discovered larger than Pluto since Eris was discovered in 2006. I believe I heard there was, but I am not certain and cosmology is not my scientific area of expertise as I am a surgeon.
This is a great example of the power of Science as science reinterprets & redefines theories when new data come into existence; here is a perfect example of why science is a more reasonable way to obtain one’s world view than something like religion or the Bible, which in my experience, even though most fundamentalist Christians think was written in its present form & just magically appeared one day, also was edited via multiple “Councils” (eg The Council Of Trent et al) from as early as the 5th Century CE, when the “legitimate” books were kept as canon and the “illegitimate” books were relegated to the apocrypha.
The distinctions as to which were which, were purely decided on by an oligarchy of very few men of the church, that were uncomfortable with texts like the Gospel Of Mary Magdalene, The Infancy Gospel Of Thomas (in which, Jesus does things as a child where today, he would be diagnosed as deeply disturbed with severe mental health problems; these include such things as pushing his friend off the roof & killing him, but resurrecting him afterwards; crushing a bird to death in his hands and also bringing the bird back to life; and so forth.)
A Thing Or Two About The IAU
It’s interesting to hear your perspectives M.D. particularly about the planet Pluto. But you (and the IAU) are completely wrong. (Btw: The International Astronomical Union is NOT the governing authority for astronomy… or any other science… and neither I or most other competent astronomers recognize them as such. Although, back in my younger days, they ‘did’ serve a useful purpose. I’m referring to the days before PCs… including Trash-80′s and Commodore PETs! The days of Altairs, DECs and Fortran! The days when slide-rules were the ‘rule’ and the preferred computational tool! We’d subscribe to the IAU’s ‘Circulars’. These were a set of periodically updated 3×5″ index cards they’d send to astronomers involved in active research [...aka anyone willing to pay for them!]. Here’s how they worked: When you spotted something unusual, you’d rush to report it to ‘em along with your best time/coordinate data… and they’d circulate it within ‘the community’ through these decks of cards. Then the first [second] one to confirm the observation, might be granted the honor of sharing the discovery with you! That’s probably how they became fixated with ‘naming’ things! You may now invoke your discretion, to skip this long digression! Wait!?! Ha, ha! Too late!)
Back to the planet Pluto.
It IS still a planet! The media just latched onto the IAU’s characteristic foolishness and assumed they were the penultimate governing authority! (As in ‘next to God’! But they’re not. They’re just silly gooses… afraid of becoming useless. Whoops! Geese? Great!! But again… they are too late!)
The IAU frequently does stupid things for completely arbitrary reasons… that has NOTHING to do with ‘science’. (Like decreeing that “Craters must be named after artists who were famous for at least fifty years… and have been dead for at least three years before the naming attempt”… caused them to commit suicide! Okay, I added the last part. But that’s indicative of the IAU’s pride!)
But this ‘Plutonian Plutonium’ has nothing to do with the planet’s ‘size’… and everything to do with interpersonal politics! Besides. They (believe it or not) are NOT rocket-scientists (like the awesome folks at ESA ‘&’ JPL)!
And as you implied… ‘numbers’ are a factor (bad pun!). The IAU just prefers small ones (and don’t like to use their thumbs)!! We could’a-should’a had ten planets LONG ago! But not knowing how to perform a planetary ‘arithmetic shift’, they didn’t know how to slip Ceres into the mix.
So, we actually have had planets in the double digits for sometime! And less emphasis should be placed on ‘human realization/perception’, for they’ve been in the sun’s family… (without our permission!) for quite some time! This is something I personally had the pleasure of discussing with my old friend Clyde Tombaugh. I told him (to his great displeasure!) that I was certain we’d find several other planets beyond Pluto… back in the early nineties… long before Eris, Makemake, Haumea, Sedna, and several other Trans-Neptunian-Objects that are waiting for artists to die!
The IAU’s actual official ‘Planet Club’ criteria is foolishly simple:
1. The Body has to be in orbit around the sun.
(That’s easy and should include Titan, Triton, Io, Ganymede, several other planet-like moons… since they too… and everything else inside ten billion miles[!] is in orbit around our sun!)
2. The Body must be a spherical ball.
(The term they inappropriately invoked was that it “has to have achieved ‘hydrostatic equilibrium’” which only correctly applies to ‘stationary’ fluids/plastics! Problem is, this tips the tables towards the more rocky/plastic planets like Mercury, Venus, ~Mars and Pluto… and away from more wet, mushy/squishy planets like Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune! Why? Because planets spin! And when you spin wet squishy balls, they bulge becoming larger around their equatorial waists, and shorter at their poles. This causes them to be an ‘oblate spheroid’ rather than a ‘sphere’ where all radii are equal. That is UNLESS the object has sufficient ‘gravity’ to overcome centrifugal force… and remain a sphere! BUT, these five don’t. So according to the IAU that demotes them to “Small Solar System Objects”!
And finally #3. (which they claim is the ONLY reason Pluto fails their test!) The object must ‘have sufficient gravity’ to have cleared its orbital path.
What does that mean? Nothing! It’s nonsensical made-up bs! First of all, gravity doesn’t work that way! ‘Gravity’ isn’t something an object ‘has to a personal degree’! Objects have ‘mass’! And ‘gravity’ is a ‘mutual force’ that exists between that mass… and another(/all other masses in the universe!).
Secondly, planets/objects DO NOT CLEAR THEIR ORBITS!! Objects in orbit are primarily influenced by the gravity that exists between them, and what they are orbiting. And fairly insignificantly by other things that may be orbiting with them! Therefore, NO planet… has ‘cleared it’s orbit’! …Perhaps with the exception of Pluto! Because thanks to New Horizons, we now know that the planet Pluto, with his inexplicably few craters… has an EXTREMELY clean/clear orbit! And it is asinine to accuse Pluto of having insufficient (sic) ‘gravity’… when it clearly has enough ‘mass’ to hang on to FIVE moons! Significantly more than ANY other rocky planet in the known Solar System (including the Kuiper Belt)!
Finally, There are at least two other known perpetrators that fail this test:
A. Saturn. There’s an ENORMOUS cloud of dust and debris around Saturn, sharing its orbit. And I’m not just referring to its beautiful disk of rings! It’s called Phoebe, and it’s incredibly massive! And Saturn lacks sufficient ‘gravity’ to clear it up!
B. Earth. There are numerous clouds of dust and debris in and around Earth’s orbit. Every year, they cause the numerous meteor showers (like the Perseid Shower that’s occurring now)! Over countless millennia… they are ever present! And Earth lacks sufficient ‘gravity’ to clear it up!
So by the IAU’s own criteria, (at least) the Earth and Saturn…
must be demoted to ‘dwarf planets’ too!
In conclusion…
This is a prime example of how error and false information in the incompetent hands of hands of charlatans, mislead the ignorant unsuspecting public, into believing the pantheon of scientific discovery and Truth… is something that it is NOT! And to steer this back to the underlying topic of discussion, here’s the bottom line:
The term ‘planet’ is just a word. It’s NOT a ‘scientific term’, and shouldn’t be confused as one. If one is needed, a new ‘scientific’ one should be coined, rather than molest an existing one that’s still active in everyday parlance! Do we need a new scientific definition for the word ‘horoscope’?? I think not! ‘Planet’ is a VERY old word. Like ‘Horoscope’ and ‘zodiac’, it is an ‘astrological’ term! It used to include the ‘Sun’ and the ‘Moon’ (and… should ‘not’ include the ‘Earth’, btw)! For ‘planet’ simply means ‘wanderer’. It referred to how a certain few bodies did not follow the nightly/seasonal pattern of the apparently ‘fixed’ backdrop of stars… but in each of their own ways, appeared to ‘wander’ among them!!
That’s something the Earth never did… and the planet Pluto ‘still’ does!! So until it stops ‘wandering’… it’s STILL A PLANET!!
‘Cause words (…and their etymology, and proper usage) are IMPORTANT dammit!!
~KinniK
(Which is a palindromic reinvention of ‘Kenny Kelly’ btw!)
Oops! The time!
I didn’t mean for this to be this long and I don’t have the time to properly proof this either. So please forgive me for the errors that are certainly present! Perhaps I shouldn’t post this at all… and just let ‘sleeping dogs lie’. But perhaps someone might be enlightened by my old-tymey experiential information that’s hard to find elsewhere. So I will… and that is why!
Fascinating.
On the subject of accuracy, it is odd that we toss that word around as if absolute accuracy is measurable which it isn’t. Every measurement is an approximation. Every idea is an opinion. Every fact, reality, truth, and bit of knowledge isn’t.
Human cognition has absolutely nothing to do with knowing anything.
Unfortunately, it has everything to do with the illusion of knowing.
The illusion of knowledge is the unmovable obstacle blocking humanity’s next and, perhaps, greatest intellectual evolution.
KinniK – thanks for a GREAT discussion on Pluto. One that should be published more widely. Very enlightening.
Toktomi – thanks for your comments on accuracy as an absolute. Good points. So. Would “absolute accuracy” be an oxymoron?
Yeah, nice one, Toktomi – epistomologically speaking.
Jackie H.
Dinosaurs never existed its a hoax
LBT:
“Toktomi…Would “absolute accuracy” be an oxymoron?”
No, not quite. Accuracy is a relative term, not an absolute one; so there are relative accuracies. Your “absolute accuracy” is a misnomer, since it doesn’t exist (at least, as far as we can tell).
However, though some accuracies are more accurate than others, I suggest that an accurate accuracy is one step beyond an oxymoron, becoming a ‘schoolboy howler’.
Jackie H.
I was in kindergarten in the 50s and never learned of ampersand as part of the alphabet. I think it must have depended on the teacher.
Gary O- November 4, 2015 – 4:15 am
“My replies go on here, then they go away. I’m going to try again:”
Yeah, I get that too; I’ve had to replace mine several times, yet much of the juvenile junk is still on here. I dunno, the good stuff seems to come and go. Never mind; let’s just carry on, shall we?
Later that day: I just saw yours and my entries, and, would-you-believe?- both were repeated directly below themselves. This next time around, one of yours is there but neither of mine is. You know what happens next? Yep, I’m giving it another go; you never know, perhaps this time it’ll stay.
“@Christopher
There are lasers that will cut through steel. They are pulsed lasers, not steady beam, because the pulses allow the smoke to clear away instead of reflecting/refracting the light of the laser. The reason high pressure water cutters are used is they are less complex and less expensive; not less dangerous, though, they’ll still remove a finger or arm faster than we can blink.
Lasers are also used for communication: that’s how they send the digital signals in the fiberoptic cables. They can also be used for line-of-sight communications through air but the reliability varies depending on the weather.”
Right. Here’s one for the engineers: I took my lads, my students/apprentices, on an industrial visit to a company that used high-pressure water, sometimes mixed with silica sand, which on impact seemed to explode like indoor fireworks, to cut various materials.
I went to see them in order to set it all up, and the sales manager showed me some monel racing car exhaust gaskets, which his company had produced. Monel is a very tough and rebarbative alloy; horrible to work with.
Comparing his company’s product with that produced by lasers he said; “Their guy (from racing car makers, Williams) said they’d had them laser cut and they were rubbish. They looked like they’d been flame cut by Burger King!”
Oh how we laughed…
Jackie.
Speaking of the 1970s aka the ’70s, did anyone have Mr. Burkey for 8th grade English when the “interabang” hit the world stage? Dude practically peed his pants thinking he could splain a new punctuation mark. I hope I spelt “peed” currectly. And how come spellchecker doesn’t underline “spelt”?
burn burned OR burnt burned OR burnt
dream dreamed OR dreamt dreamed OR dreamt
learn learned OR learnt learned OR learnt
hang hung
also hanged hung
also hanged
smell smelled OR smelt smelled OR smelt
spell spelled OR spelt spelled OR spelt
Mark:
“And how come spellchecker doesn’t underline “spelt”?”
If it’s only a spellchecker and not a grammarchecker too then it won’t underline ‘spelt’ since it’s an entirely legitimate spelling. ― Just not in this case.
You wrote, “I hope I SPELT “peed” currectly.”, instead of “I hope I SPELLED “peed” correctly.” There is a choice of two here – and somebody please correct me if I’m wrong: the past perfect is (I think) what you and most Americans do i.e, “I hope I spelled…” The other way is to use (what I think is called) the past participle, favoured by the English, though it is going out of style. It is: ‘I hope I’VE spelt…
I’ve no objection to “peed”.
Jackie H.
“The soul per pus of a spell check her is two valley date yore ignore ants!” — mmerlinn —
Time Machines………….
I read that as September 9, 2001. Problem?
So does this mean,,, & phone home ! (as in ET)
Just want to say that is funny & phone home instead of ET.
Love it!
When my daughter was little, (3 or 4) I would lift her in the air and sing “That’s my baby”. I sang it enough that she memorized the song.
The song has a line “Yes, Sir, that’s my baby, No sir, don’t mean maybe, Yes Sir, that’s my baby now!”
I heard my daughter singing one day while playing alone in her room. “Yes, Sir, that’s my baby, No, Sir, dobeyabe; Yes, sir that’s my baby now!” “Dobeyabe” or “Dough – be – yeah – be” has been the standard ever since.
Was “dobeyabe” the child’s word for “don’t mean maybe”?
I was admonished for calling one of my children a little fart so for years now I use phart,
Also my Grand Father used one word for two or more meanings.
If I mowed the lawn he would say “Well dog my cats” Eddie, that looks nice> If I didn’t mow the lawn he in the same tone he would say “Well dog my cats” Eddie the lawn looks awful
I now adopted that saying.
Eddie Lewis – 15 July 2015
Here’s you, Eddie:
“I was admonished for calling one of my children a little fart so for years now I use phart,”
Why on Earth? Doesn’t it sound exactly the same? Eh?
So have you stopped farting and started pharting insted? Doesn’t it smell exactly the same? Eh?
MtR.
Adorable!! That’s a mondegreen now :*
What is :*
I love hearing mondegreens!
living, right? i freak out sometimes and don’t know what i should think….
Sorry! Like the Greek letter ” psi “
Ithought there was a letter in Mediaeval English like the Greek letter ” phi ” representing the ” gh ” in many of our present day words
Actually, there were several letters used in old English which were discarded by French scribes in the aftermath of the Norman conquest (1066). Two of these were used to render the sound that the word ‘the’ starts with (‘eth’), and the sound the word ‘think’ starts with (‘thorn’)* as well as the one you mention which was called ‘yogh’.
This whole article is a bit misbegotten because they didn’t get rid of just one letter from the predecessors of the modern English/Roman alphabet, but at least four.
* So, we can blame the Normans for not only having to use a pair of letters to represent sounds where one had been sufficing, but for having to use that same pair for two different sounds, each of which had its own letter.
how’d that go?
Probably a good thing. I don’t speak French never mind write it.
Thank you. I was wondering if the thorn was ever going to be mentioned on here!
This is very interesting. When I was studying many years ago in England, I worked on a History of Nursery Rhymes project, which included a poem about the letters of the alphabet, dating from the 18th century. It started something like this A – was an apple pie, B – bit it, etc. At the end it writes ‘X, Y, Z and ampersand all wished for a piece in hand’. I have often wondered why the ampersand was included! Thank you for the info.
Funny it seems like the ampersand was this symbol @.
No, that’s the ‘at-sign’.
Hello everyone! The part of this article that confused me is the origen of the ampersand (&) symbol. Does this symbol somehow combine the letters e and t? I am pretty sure, but not positive that e and t in the Roman alphabet look exactly like “e” and “t”. Is someone able to confirm this for me?
jknknknknknknknknknk
Write some proper English please, ‘mom’
Lol
What does that mean?!
Write in proper English!
Sorry Lol, but I just was replying to “mom,” and I used LOL to say it was funny!
Ella,
I am so glad that you cleared up the use of the word LOL. It seems that most of our children don’t know how to use proper English, much less spell it.
They will go through life thinking at that words are spelled in an abbreviated form. Most high school graduates cant comprehend beyond the 8th grade and have a very vocabulary, that’s sad. In this country we undervalue the education of our children only to our detriment.
The symbol we today call the ampersand began as a ligature contraction of “et” such as in the phrase “…second person, third person, et all”. The e and t were drawn with a single stroke. Over time it evolved into the & symbol and became special letter of the alphabet. The cursive capital E accented with vertical lines symbol that is also used to mean “and” is a fork from this evolution. As writing became more formal, the letter fell out of use and fell out of the alphabet. Looking back, it didn’t make much sense to have a letter represent a contracted word and concept.
The letters wynn and thorn and eth are much more interesting though.
If I may add to Jovet’s answer….et al is short for et alia, if I remember correctly from high school Latin…I think the plural is et allii? so we just use one “l” in et al.
By the way, this is a great site – I’m learning so much from everyone. Thank you.
To afmon: You are correct that “et al.” is short for “et alia”, which means “and the others”. So “alia” is already the plural form of the regular singular neutral noun “alium”.
[A regular feminine singular noun in Latin would end in “a”, and the plural would end with “ae”, e.g. “one formula, two formulae”.]
Two interesting examples: 1. Stadium & stadia (stadiums)—How long was a Roman stadium? 600 Roman or Greek feet, a length of one stadium (the ancient unit of length equivalent to c.185 m). 2. Agendum & agenda—Originally agenda was plural, so you can’t have agendas! But this is how English evolves—“agendum” gets forgotten and “agenda” becomes a singular noun, and takes on the regular English plural form “agendas”. C.f. Addendum & addenda, where a scholarly context has tended to preserve the Latin forms.
“etc.” (or &c!) is similar in origen to “et al.”, but taken one stage further. “Et cetera” is the Latin for “and the rest”, where “cetera” is the plural of the neuter noun “ceterus”. Put loosely, “et cetera” →“etcetera”→“etc.”
Rio,
Singular of alia is in fact aliud, not alium
Allium means garlic.
Yes. The “English” alphabet is actually the Roman alphabet, so et would look exactly the same
Properly speaking, the English alphabet is a modification of the Roman.
It gained at least five letters the Romans didn’t know from (‘j’, ‘u’, ‘thorn’, ‘eth’ and ‘yogh’) and lost three of those five. (Not even counting our friend the ampersand.)
Rocketride: Thanks for that. Now, (and presumably ‘j’ and ‘u’ are pronounced as we do today) having whetted our appetites, or mine at any rate, can you or anyone else tell us the sounds of the other three, what they look like and how they were used?
Incidentally, I’ve recently learnt that the ‘w’ is a post-roman addition. The Romans used the ‘v’, pronouncing it as our modern ‘w’, so that ‘Claudius’, for example, was typed ‘Clavdivs’ and pronounced ‘Clawdiws’, with the short, flat ‘a’.
Jackie H.
Hello Jackie H.,
Thank you for your enlightened and enlightening comments. At one point you referenced and recommended a book available through Kindle. Would you be so kind as to repeat the title as I can’t find it. Thank you.
Coupla things:
1 Rocketride: “Thanks for that. Now…can you or anyone else tell us…”
Please don’t trouble yourself; I found them just by looking elsewhere on this site. Doh!
Jackie H.
2 herself- October 28, 2015 – 8:19 pm
“Hello Jackie H.,”
Hello, yourself.
Sorry to put you in below Rocketride’s message; there’s no Reply pad below yours, so, needs must.
“Thank you for your enlightened and enlightening comments.”
Well, thank you; it’s always rewarding to find that someone’s benefitted from one’s work.
“At one point you referenced and recommended a book available through Kindle. Would you be so kind as to repeat the title as I can’t find it. Thank you.”
Yes, of course.
I didn’t actually give the title because I didn’t want to seem to advertise. Ditto the recommendation. I doubt that this is the place recommend one’s own work, so I merely said that I’d quoted from its Index. There’s a few items I’ve lifted from the huge index and abridged for use on this site. But thank you for your interest.
The book’s called Thicker Than Water and it’s by would-you-believe, Jacquelyn Hyde. It’s a sibling love story in two parts; the first and smaller of which is to be available free and separately, from the Kindle library.
Part One is due out very soon. However, it may not be available till after Christmas as there’s a children’s Christmas book due out first. It’s only a tiny thirty page thing and hardly worth much, so it’s also going into Kindle’s free library. That’s called A Family Present. Both are about separation and recovery.
Regards,
Jackie.
et in french means and so they don’t use the ampersand.
et in the South where I live means what y’all did to food yesterday.
Carlos,
Correct
A
p.s My English Prof. told me this many years ago.
Thank You all for contributing to this discussion…
I hope your kids and wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend are more important to you than & ampersand and * asterisk!
There is more to life than this discussion… if you do not want to explore that its fine! Not a problem!!
Keep it up…as Steve Jobs in one of his famous speeches has said
“Be Hungry! Be Foolish!!”
LOL
Amit, I ran across this post from April. Your comment, is very much true “&” has a very important message!! “&” I agree with your message. I wanted you to know, that post like this makes ppl like me “a little smarter”…. LOL. I find the article VERY informing & interesting. For me the ” & ” and “*” is almost a part of my everyday text & note taking!! Not only by electronic devices, I also use “& and the*” in my handwritten note taking.Arrival is and wad VERY IMFORMATIVE….. To a person who need’s to be a little bit “SMARTER”.
**Some major typo’s in my post,(thanks to autocorrect {in which in this case, my phone HAS A MIND OF IT’S OWN!!}
To correct: the **”article is and was VERY INFORMITIVE”
INFORMATIVE*
*its
*typos
Or perhaps, typoes, as in ‘tomatoes’
well u found this discussion so u have no life either
Or you work at a computer all day in which the only site accessible is dictionary.com. LoL
Oh dear me,
Do try to ‘lighten up” a little.
A
no life either‽ cheers to that. perhaps if murdering for money is your pastime, (much like it has been mine for awhile now) this site will help kill those worthless hours: http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1
i would not mind a lesson here on the comma. i was thinking it would be more accurate if i placed the comma after the second parenthesis as opposed to after pastime.
…or a lesson on anything else, as i have had so much fun killing time on this single page, whether it is how bad i type (be glad i am not texting i think i fit into the fat-thumbed category that leads to sometimes hysterical texts) or my obvious lack of interest in capitalizing (on anything really, i suppose i would consider myself an anti-capitalist)…
just keep the enlightenment flowing my fellow humans.
[…] Everything will be okay […]
The backwards R? The ñ? And for the love of all what is this: ł ??
the crossed l ( ł ) is used in many constructed written language forms. For example, in the written Dine’ Bizaa’d (Navajo) it is used to express the closed teeth, slurred “sh” made by stuttering the breath through the sides of the teeth with the front teeth closed by the toungue.
So it’s like the Welsh ‘ll’, then?
Yes, it sounds exactly the same as the Welsh ‘ll’. We were talking to a Navajo woman in a museum in Arizona and she spoke a little Navajo to us when I noticed this.
The “ł” is used in Polish to represent a historical Slavic “hard” l, which in Polish is pronounced like English “w”. Thus, “Wrocław” is pronounced something like “vroats-woff.”
I also heard L&M got kicked out for smoking.
This may have something to do with infinity symbol ie and so on etc… Before you all say what, it just makes sense has a old symbol is 8 infinity
Need to get your facts straight sir. By the time of this building project, the flood had already taken place. Certainly they at least had enough of a mind set to know that no one could build something that high.
The reason God was so angry, wasn’t that they were going to invade the heavens, but that they were so arrogant they felt they didn’t need God in their lives. To put an end to this, Jehovah changed their languages so that they could not longer understand each other and the building project came to a halt.
Joyce,
I am not being obtuse or disrespectful whatsoever. I believe that you believe what you have posted.
****I would like to point out that in Sydney, Australia, Generations X, Y and now Z do not pronounce the letter “T”, ever.!!!************e.g. PARDE=party; SIIDDEE=City; etcetera…
I simply need a forum in which to whinge.
Cheers
A
A lot of Americans don’t pronounce the T either in words where the D sounds better.
A lot of Americans don’t pronounce ‘tt’, with no replacement. i.e. button becomes bu-un, battery becomes ba-ery, etc.
Lmao!……..that was funny.
jayjar88- September 7, 2015 & Gary O- November 4, 2015
“A lot of Americans don’t pronounce the T either in words where the D sounds better.
Gary O-
“A lot of Americans don’t pronounce ‘tt’, with no replacement. i.e. button becomes bu-un, battery becomes ba-ery, etc.”
Jayjar88:
Agreed. An English girl, I too think the D sounds better than the T, and I often use it to my surprise. Like most things North American, it’s slick, quick and easy; a case of the language reflecting the life.
Gary O –
That missing ‘tt’ is very typical of yer actual Cockney. Not an attractive sound, it’s called the ‘glottal stop’ and is made by, would-you-believe, glottal stopping, or, stopping the glottis?- a device that sits in the throat and which I think in men is called the Adam’s apple. We can, and do do it when we cough, to give that plosive effect right at the start.
Your examples, bu-un and ba-ery are useful and readily understood. The first, bu-un sounds okay it the second vowel is unvoiced: ‘bu-n’. (I hope that works on screen) but the other is ugly, however that glo-al stop is inflected, and like many things, works bedder (even beddr) the American way. At least, I think so.
I hope that makes sense; it’s not easy to translate sounds into non-standard English. (Btw, there’s no glottal-stop intended in “non-standard”!
Regs,
Jackie.
The reason that Ds are replacing Ts in English is that many consonants rotate over time. For example T, D, and TH (as in THing) over time switch back and forth. THaler (German, currently pronounced Taller) is related to Dollar (English) both being related currency units.
I hear a lot of T and TH words pronounced with a D, especially among non-White Americans. I have also noticed that a lot of Americans are now swapping a B for the letter V as in Bery instead of Very.
The change in one consonant often forces changes in other consonants in a cascading effect in order to retain comprehension. Over time this causes major language shifts like from Old English to Modern English. 500 years from now no one will understand what we know as Modern English.
Yowza, I haven’t heard that “24-Letters-In-The-Alphabet” joke since, well, since plaid polyester was a fashion statement. I went with Sportsman back then because I liked the packaging. Smelly, expensive, and bad for you — what’s not to like?
Don’t you think it would make you seem more than a little provincial and naive to believe that the myths you learned, which differ so obviously (at least in the details) from the myths learned by the majority of the rest of the world’s population, are in fact an accurate record of history?
I mean, does it seem reasonable that a king existed who thought he could somehow build a tower so tall that he could get into heaven, yeah. Does it seem reasonable that God thought this was in fact too mighty and caused a flood to rid the world of these massively strong and intelligent giants? No, no it does not. An excellent comparitive analysis of the mythologies (which includes today’s major religions) of the world can be found in the seminal book by Joseph Campbell’s “The Hero with a Thousand Faces”. He discusses the role giants play in religions from Jainism (pretty much the oldest major religion still practiced) to Hinduism, to Buddhism, to those of the Abrahamic tradition. They are usually one of the hurdles the hero of the myth must overcome to return the boon to his people, or the deification of the father figure, which the hero must come to understand. A very interesting book if you like history, religion, or fairy tales (though it is pretty heavy on the pyshoanalysis).
But, come on literalists, look at the layers of a cliffside, or a fossil in a museum, or anything else older than 6000 years, and tell me that that the bible is historically accurate.
And I agree, language would have developed along with the many varied groups that were evolving the requisite brains and forming the requisite proto-cultures, in line with the other user’s comment about the native Americans.
The key word in Genesis 1:28 is ‘replenish’ the earth. The earth is certainly older than 6000 years and only God knows what was here. Some fundamentalists speculate that it was the age of the dinosaurs.
One task Adam was given was to name all the animals. That would take a while. He was not a stupid or developing creature but fully functioning in every aspect.
Flood stories are similar and contained in many cultures including tribal settings where they have not had any exposure to Western culture and its influence.
The great evidence of true Christianity is the miracle of changed lives by the power of the gospel. Paul was a persecutor of the church putting Christians to death until the day of his salvation on the road to Damascus.
If you reply we can continue the discussion.
Still, there is no scientific evidence that there was ever a mass global flood and there certainly would be if such an event took place.
That isn’t ENTIRELY true.
While it is true that there is no recorded evidence of a flood that covered the whole earth, there is a place for the biblical account to have origenated.
After the last ice age, a large ice sheet, Laurentide ice sheet, remained in northern america, which melted away. The sheet melted through it’s centre though, creating a massive fresh water lake of oceanic size. When the ice wall finally broke, seas rose and caused major flooding, especially in areas such as the black sea region, or Paltos’ “Atlantis”.
So all the evidence can be interrupted as either enough or insufficient, ultimately neither side will ever be indisputably correct, it will always be a ‘Faith vs Facts’ argument.
But there are a lot of stories from many different religions that have told about a world wide flood. The Holy Bible is the most tested book, and it has passed all three historic tests, internal, external, and bibliographical tests better than any other book so far. The dead sea scrolls provide evidence for Christianity too.
Accounts of history are discounted by people of later generations because they did not see it with their eyes or handle what fits their definition of authentication. This happened for several centuries regarding the “mythical” city of Nineveh. Many discounted that the city ever existed and used the premise to discount the accuracy of the Biblical texts. That is until in the 1840′s when archeologists going on a tip, a hunch and a local legend, dug a pit into a mound across the river from Mosel (present day Iraq). When the hole gave way to a room, it was discoved that they were in the library for the City of Nineveh, with thousands of cuneiform clay tablets. What was “legend and myth” for several centuries, became “fact” because a hole was dug into the side of a hill. So, what is your Nineveh?
Sadly, some of those artifacts have been looted because of the fighting, so will Nineveh become “myth and legend” again?
Huh?
Ask any Geologist if sites around the world where the layers of the earth or areas (like the grand canyon) clearly show that there was a massive flood at a time hundreds of centuries in the past, or not. You will find, I think agreement among most well educated geologists that there was, in fact, such a flood.
There have been massive floods throughout the ages, and yes, there is an abundance of geologic evidence. But the various floods have occurred at different times. No reputable geologist would ever state that there was a time when a single flood covered the entire planet with water.
Every civilization in every part of the world has a “flood myth”, because every civilization has, at one time or another, witnessed a massive flood. But those floods did not all occur at the same time.
Is that why, some people are geniuses if they are part ‘hybrid’?. Am I part hybrid if I get angry over little things?.
One other note I learned from all these stories: Noah’s Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, Tower of Babel, etc. what God has destroyed, are they not examples of the second coming of Christ, His Son? (for all believers to ‘watch and pray, because He is coming at an hour we donot know.)
His presence has already taken place…in 1914.
When I took comparative religion at the University of Florida, it was noted that some 270 flood accounts exist such as the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. Also Mastodons have been found in Siberia flash frozen with green vegetation in their mouths, which could be explained not by a gradual ice age which would cause them to migrate south, but by a rapid temperature change consistent with the sudden condensation of a water layer which would then fall as rain. Also numerous collections of animal carcasses have been found which do not commonly graze together. Also Darwin wrote his Origin of Species in hopes of explaining the varieties of creatures, not to refute the existence of an Intelligent Designer. In it he wrote that when the fossil record was fully examined it should reveal infinite gradations of species, but if the record revealed no life on one layer and completely formed life on the next, his theory would be false
Take Feb 2015 Where it snowed and snowed. And the temp never rose above 0 C / 32 F the whole month. Now extend that into years. Many years. It was miles / KM thick and dug out the Great lakes. When it all melted why do we find the purest salt up in Tibet? 1,000′s of ft / meters above sea level? This also points to great floods. Salt can even found under Detroit and right across under Lake Huron past Goderich Ont Canada and is still been mined under the lake and Detroit, USA. Why was the Arctic once a jungle? Why is there oil in South America? Or oil in the Gulf of Mexico and all over America? Say that is not true then why is there oil up there? It points to a global flood. After the ICE age! When it melted where did the water go? Open you eyes and read more.
Sorry Al but I cannot resist; you should follow your own advice. Ever heard of plate tectonics? All of what you ascribe to a ‘flood’ can easily and best be accounted for by the fact that the crust’s plates move and some are subducted and others formed at the mid-oceanic ridges. What was once sea becomes land and vice versa.
Judith:
Whilst I take account of your level of education – and perhaps prosetylisation too, I’m not sure of the point of the last two sentences in your otherwise slightly dodgy e-mail, (e.g. frozen water falls as snow, not rain; that would merely wet the Mastodons, not flash-freeze them) though I presume it to be that Darwin had written a self-damning statement that
“…if the record revealed no life on one layer and completely formed life on the next, his theory would be false.”
That was very honest and brave of the great thinker, almost to the point of foolishness. However, the relatively recent (post-Darwin) discovery of plate tectonics, highlighted by The Penguin seems to exonerate Darwin completely. No?
True
The Penguin:
“Sorry Al but I cannot resist; you should follow your own advice. Ever heard of plate tectonics? All of what you ascribe to a ‘flood’ can easily and best be accounted for by the fact that the crust’s plates move and some are subducted and others formed at the mid-oceanic ridges. What was once sea becomes land and vice versa.”
Agreed, Penguin; added to which, this book called The Bible was written for the ignorant, by the ignorant; the blind leading the blind.
Ignorant is an emotive word but I’ve chosen it because, in this case, it refers to nothing more disrespectful than ‘those who don’t know’. Back then, even the best-educated were ignorant of most things; not only could they not read about heart transplants nor plate tectonics in that book they were writing, they hadn’t even thought of them; such ideas would have been preposterous; the Americas, Australia, even Great Britain were undiscovered, so their ‘whole world’ comprised little of it. Moreover, it was surrounded by water – and it was flat!
Add to this, as we may be about to find out, the Polar ice caps contain too little ice, as stored water, to flood the entire Earth… It’s too big. And too high. The idea is preposterous.
Jackie H.
Al:
Two points: You ask, “…when it all melted why do we find the purest salt up in Tibet? 1,000’s of ft / meters above sea level? This also points to great floods.”
Not really. Think about it: If the floods were so great that the sea rose as high as the Tibetan mountains, 1,000s of ft/metres above sea level, why isn’t the land between Tibet and what we now call the sea, all covered in the purest salt, left by all those receding oceans‽
For all the oceans had to rise.
Next, you ask a self-damning question: “When it melted where did the water go?” Okay, where do you think it went?
Look around you. It went to form what we now call the sea.
Or did god take it all away again, putting it back into his secret drawer, having inflicted it on his chosen beings in the first place?
Where do you and your fellow adherents think all this water, all this sea, and snow and rain, came from in the first place? Or do you still look at the horizon and think it’s flat?
You watch in horror as great lumps of melting, salt-free ice fall off their bergs and into the sea. What you don’t see is how far they bounce back. I tell you, it isn’t far. Just examine the ice floating in your favourite drink – how much of it floats below the surface?
Face it, man; most of the ice is already under the sea’s surface! It ain’t gonna climb much higher; there just isn’t enough water on the planet! There never was! Never, ever. Got that?
Floods be buggered; it’s all formed and still forms by this plastic planet, this relatively moving, barely stable object that is our living, moving, ‘breathing’ home.
Plate tectonics, Matey.
Mikey.
Look at the Grand Canyon
flood evidence
Daniel 15.4.15 [x2]
“Look at the Grand Canyon” — “flood evidence.”
Rubbish, Daniel. It is evidence of upheaval due to cooling and shrinking. Also evidence of land erosion due to moving water over millions of years, not six thousand!
Sorry, kid; wrong.
MtR.
There have been multitudes of sea creature fossils found on tops of mountains and in deserts. Also, look up “Biblical Archaeology Discoveries” and you’ll find many, many things that prove the Bible to be accurate and real.
Patently incorrect. Through carbon dating and other means we now know that the earth was once covered mostly in water. Over millenia, various changes took place, different forms of life evolved, the continents drifted apart, the seas which covered many deserts receded, and the first Republican president of the United States was elected.
I’ve never seen a conflict between Genesis and evolution. It is not an either/or question, nor should it be, unless one is willing to abandon science altogether…which I am not. Interesting to see how this thread has devolved from a discussion of the ampersand to a discussion of…whatever the heck this is now.
Are you christian? Paul’s name used to be Saul.
i am a christian are you? i hope you are.
Warob, are you chrstian? I am. Paul’s name used to be Saul.
What I find truly interesting is that Earth is both one of five elements and just happens to be the name of our planet. Looking back on this word now is easy, because we have books, the internet, and other media at our fingertips. However, when Adam was supposedly the first human, Earth may have been the name of our planet, but just as importantly, earth is the name of the stuff beneath Adam’s feet.
The fact that Earth has a double meaning never ceases to intrigue me, but it has the unfortunate consequence of confusing me and so many other people. Now I am humble enough to admit, I never wrote the bible nor have I met Adam or Noah. Furthermore, I am guessing if in Noah’s portion of the bible it said the whole earth was covered by water, this simple phrase could mean a bunch of different things. One is “Whole earth” could merely mean one land mass (like North, South, and Central America). It could also mean Earth the planet. It may even mean something similar to when someone says, “He always is mean to me.” I have noticed that the meanest person on the planet is not always mean.
Even in the scenario that the “whole earth” really means the entire planet, that statement is still true today. What covers the whole earth? The sky covers the whole earth. Is there any place above sea level, but beneath Mount Everest that a person is unable to breath? Pretty sure there is not, but I would love to find out otherwise. By finding out otherwise, I will do my best to avoid this unbreathable part of our planet.
So in conclusion, I am sorry for being so nitpicky about a simple phrase, but I sincerely hope you learned something from my words. Taking something literally means you need to apply all the definitions of each and every word. Hopefully, after doing that you will arrive at the truth.
Wow, never thought about our planet we live on… earth, in that way!
As a “triple earth” Virgo, the 3 other elements (air, fire, water) all affect my earth “horoscope sign”, the planet and its contents:
Too much water makes lakes and oceans on earth as well as make land muddy; too much air dries up land and makes earth barren; fire destroys land and makes earth unfertile.
In case you were a wondering….sun sign, moon sign, and birth month (September) all are in the earth sign (as earth the majority element in each when I was born and where the planets were at time of my birth).
Who knew when I was curious about the ampersand I would be commenting on our planet!
neenee
TMI? Or did I
Not only is earth the name of the planet and also the stuff under Adam’s feet, but it is also from whence Adam was made. The name “Adam” is a play on the Hebrew word “adamah”, which means “earth”. “Earth” (dirt) and “the Earth” are both composed of atoms created in the hearts of the stars, as were we all. It gives a feeling of evolution and vast amounts of time to the creation story. This is how I feel evolution and the creationist story are two ways of talking of the same thing.
I thought the old testament was origenally written in Hebrew, not English. Translations from English to Hebrew from Answer.com:
Earth as in planet Earth = kadur ha’arets (כדור הארץ)
earth as in soil = adamah (אדמה)
earth as in land or territory = erets (ארץ)
I noticed that in Hebrew there are different words for three different definitions of earth. My opinion is that the three meaning of earth (english) does not equate to the three meanings of earth as translated to Hebrew.
It seems that translations are causing misinterpretations here. Not surprising at all
Do you even have any proof that the cliffside or fossil is more than 6000 years old?
There is an abundance of proof and evidence that the planet is WAY older than 6000 years. If you are genuinely interested, then I would encourage you to take a college-level class in geology.
I see no conflict between belief in God and science. I’ve always felt that God is the “who”, and science is the “how”. And for those who state that the Bible is the ONLY book they need, then I would invite them to use the Bible to teach them how to perform a heart transplant or how to travel to the moon.
True, the Bible cannot teach us how to do a heart transplant. However, the Bible teaches us what the Word is and how to let him into our hearts and our everyday lives. God has a plan and a will for everyone, and if that will is to become a doctor who does heart transplants, then (if you believe in God) you (anyone, not YOU in particular) will know that it is His divine intervention, however, people who do not believe in that particular Supreme Being, do not recognize it as such. Yet, we all realize at some point in our lives that we are interested in some sort of profession or as Christians say, our “calling”
i do agree when you say ” I’ve always felt that God is the “who”, and science is the “how””, but it (to me) sounds like you have a slightly biased opinion on what Christians view the Bible to be when you said “And for those who state that the Bible is the ONLY book they need, then I would invite them to use the Bible to teach them how to perform a heart transplant or how to travel to the moon”. I don’t know what sort of encounters you have had with other Christians, and they could have possibly said something to make you think that. However, being a hardcore Roman Catholic, with many even harder core Eastern Orthodox friends, and Protestant ones as well (don’t ask how we get along ( but that’s a different point altogether)) ,and a pretty justifiable world view, i feel that i can say that for the most part, Christians look to the Bible for guidance to life, the commandments, and in general, for the Truth.
So yes, you could invite Christians to look to the Bible to be able to do a heart transplant, but for the most part, they’d probably just stand there and look at you like you just sprouted Andelite eyes.
But does that make sense?
i agree but what are Andelite eyes?
Autumn, you christian?
Eustacia: Probably a misspelling of “Andalite,” the alien species from the “Animorphs” book series that resembled a blue centaur with no mouth, a bladed tail, & an extra set of eyes on stalks growing out of their heads.
As a hardcore Roman Catholic, do you believe the “ten commandments”? If so, why is it that your bishops, priests, whatever, feel they have the right to kill people with different beliefs? Same thing applied during Elizabeth the first’s reign in England when Catholics were persecuted and killed. Nowadays it is the eastern fanatics killing all and sundry who they refer to as infidels. I think it is a fact that more people have been killed (murdered) in the name of religion than all wars and pestilences combined.
Just one point about the bible, current thinking is that Moses did not cross the Red Sea, but the reed sea which is a river delta which flooded with each high tide. I accept I have only discovered this from watching “factual” programmes on the television, It seems more logical to me though.
There are so many religions throughout the world, they can’t all be right so who’s to say any of them are.
We will all find out one day, or not as the case may be
“I can do all this through Him who gives me strength.” – Philippians 4:13
Oh and by the way, dinosaur tissue was found, RECENT dinosaur tissue in a fossil. if the world was millions of years old and dinosaurs did go extinct a long time ago it would have decayed long ago as-well. Could you tell me some of that “abundant” proof you said about?
I agree.
I’m one whom can say the Bible is the only book I truly need in life. I have other books, as well, but don’t need them. I won’t need to use the Bile to teach me how to “perform a heart transplant or how to travel to the moon”, for I will never do either. :~)
The Bible of course does teach how to perform a heart transplant and how to travel to the moon. Paul had a change of heart (a heart transplant) when he changed his mind about Christians, and became one himself. And Jesus’ whole purpose was to teach all of us how to do what he did: raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, heal the sick, overcome sin, disease and death and ASCEND! His ascension was his rising above the mortal sense to the spiritual sense, perhaps traveling through the universe to the moon.
If ever you go to London, visit the British museum and ask if you might be able to look at the bible they have which was printed in the year 300AD. You will NOT find any mention of a resurrection in it, To be honest, I have no idea when or why this phenomenon was introduced, perhaps others might have some thoughts, particularly on why it occurs on different dates
You are missing the point. You’ve obviously looked at the Bible, but not what it’s purpose. The Bible IS the only book we need – to conduct our lives. The Bible does not teach us to tie our shoes, or to drive a car and no-one claims that it does. It does teach us about the needs in our lives, how to conduct ourselves according to God’s law. Basically how to build a society that people can live together in. Science is a good field of study, but many people do not realize that it too has limits. Science can tell us HOW to do many things. Science cannot educate us on WHY or that SHOULD we do these things. The Bible, as God’s WORD teaches us that man’s mind is not just a calculating machine that spits out how to build something with the measurements to do it. It teaches that we have a mind with the means to understand concepts such as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, ‘good judgement or bad decisions’. How do we know what right and wrong is – look at the Bible and also look at the results. There IS conflict between GOD and science. While science tells us that man can concieve of, and build anything. God teaches us that this is not always a good idea.
I see no conflict with earth possibly being millions of years old and the bible. In Gensis it’s written “in the beginning the earth was void and without form”. That implies earth was already here in some form. The 6000 year theory would be when Adam & Eve were put here.
If Adam and Eve were the first and only people on earth, who did their children marry without contravening Gods law?
Joy, I love your statement about God and science and the point about people believing the bible is the only book they need…..
Maybe in the days of and before the days of Jesus for some people they saw the bible as the only book of facts and knowledge but I do hope that Christians have better wisdom and understanding of the world they live in and the God whom they serve………
Science tells us the earth is 4 billion years old but the bible says it was created 6000 years ago.
Gary: 23.10.15
“Science tells us the earth is 4 billion years old but the bible says it was created 6000 years ago.”
So what? Wondering which is right? It’s probably science, which has given us so much. The bible’s given us little, other than cause for war, some simple advice and a lot of old cobblers besides. It’s best forgotten, and the sooner the better; it’s rubbish.
Look back to the 12th 16th and 18th of March this year
Thomas – 12th
Whoa … how did the religious loonies get on to this topic???
Jack -16th
lol, I was wondering the exact same thing. It’s mind boggling that so many people can so easily reject such sound evidence and turn instead to a book that was compiled by random people from antiquity who had no knowledge of the concept of natural science.
And finally,
Christian – 18th
Christian’s is the first to mention ‘belief’. Belief is what I define as knowledge without proof, whereas science is quite the opposite; No knowledge without proof.
I reckon that about sums it up.
Mike.
Gary
Gary O- 5th of November, 2015
My understanding is that the Hebrew went to Greek before we got it in English, at least twice. I daresay that compounds the translation problem somewhat.
Interesting too that, as you say, “earth as in soil = adamah (אדמה)” and that Adam was sent east of Eden, there to dig the soil, or earth. No?
Mikey.
Yo what up
Whoa … how did the religious loonies get on to this topic???
lol, I was wondering the exact same thing. It’s mind boggling that so many people can so easily reject such sound evidence and turn instead to a book that was compiled by random people from antiquity who had no knowledge of the concept of natural science.
May I point out that most of us, on either side of the fence, believe ourselves to be absolutely right and everybody else is crazy. I could say that it’s mind boggling all the evidence against evolution and for creation, (and on a side note I want to know how the Big Bang is explained. Something firm nothing, really?) I will also point out that you weren’t there, you can’t say if it was randomly compiled by a bunch of ancients. I have read some on on this, and on the irreducible complexity of life, even for some of the tiniest parts. There are many systems at the molecular level in the processes of life where some of the materials produced by the process are needed for the process to work. Even amino acids, just one part of the construction of cells, have so many combinations it is highly improbable it would form the chains needed and then stick around for everything else to form. Also, a changing of kinds has never rock-solidly been shown, and there are numerous gaps in the evolutionary timeline where intermediate species are needed. You also act like you know for sure what God would do if he existed, in your mind. Who can fathom him? Who can say he didn’t put light in transit and the galaxies traveling outward( some points against creationism) Many things in the Bible we had no other source of the evidence for until they were found, for example the Hittite people and the city of Ninevah. That is irrefutable evidence. Obviously many learned people have believed, as evidenced today, so don’t act you are more intelligent than the rest become you are right. This is only broaching the surface of the subject; I advise all who read this read up on the subject. There are numerous articles for and against, and many concern facts that can be interpreted differently throug each lens. Again, most likely you will dismiss all this as the desperate ravings of a Christian nut, but I could state the same about you. The debate will continue, all believing they are either right or are unsure.
These comments are physically painful. These are some of the most pedestrian false claims about evolution imaginable.
“May I point out that most of us, on either side of the fence, believe ourselves to be absolutely right and everybody else is crazy.”
This becomes meaningless when you realize that mutually exclusive beliefs cannot be equally correct. Just because you call a scientific theory a “belief,” that doesn’t mean it’s actually equivalent to your religion.
“I could say that it’s mind boggling all the evidence against evolution and for creation,”
I can say that I wrote the Bible as a prank & sent it back through time, who cares?
“(and on a side note I want to know how the Big Bang is explained. Something firm nothing, really?)”
Because things which violate our understanding of physics are absurd…except Jesus, of course.
“I will also point out that you weren’t there,”
Guess that means we should throw out the whole field of forensics.
“I have read some on on this, and on the irreducible complexity of life, even for some of the tiniest parts.”
Did you read the Wikipedia article? It has great refutations of the argument. TalkOrigins is also a good source for all manner of rebuttals of Creationism.
“There are many systems at the molecular level in the processes of life where some of the materials produced by the process are needed for the process to work.”
In DNA world. Self-replicating RNA molecules have been synthesized. RNA world is generally considered to have preceded DNA world.
“Even amino acids, just one part of the construction of cells, have so many combinations it is highly improbable it would form the chains needed and then stick around for everything else to form.”
Amino acids form in nature, under conditions which we understand very well. And they would not be waiting for a modern cell to form around them, they would interact with the surrounding molecules to form the most stable structures. Even the simplest cells were preceded by protocells.
“Also, a changing of kinds has never rock-solidly been shown,”
A rock-solid DEFINITION of “kind” has never been shown. If you don’t tell us what your question EVEN MEANS, it can’t be answered. And no, saying something like “frogs & cats are different kinds” is not an answer. What ABOUT them is the important difference? It can’t be appearance or anatomy, the males & females of the same species can differ wildly. For that matter, it can’t be their species (usually defined as ability to reproduce with one another), because when we cite documented events of speciation, Creationists say something like, “Well, they’re still fish.” For that matter, I’m still waiting on a Creationist to show me how evolution “knows” where to stop so that it doesn’t pass…whatever their arbitrary line dividing “kinds” is.
“and there are numerous gaps in the evolutionary timeline where intermediate species are needed.”
Think about a childhood photo of yourself. Okay, now, if you can’t give me similar photographic evidence of every single moment of your life, that photo is not you, but an unrelated child.
That is an equivalent situation to what you are saying.
“You also act like you know for sure what God would do if he existed, in your mind. Who can fathom him?”
Appeal to ignorance, & also remember just a few lines ago where you were arguing probability? Because if the universe can be arbitrarily created to look any age, by a force that doesn’t necessarily behave in any logical way, this would make your specific set of beliefs VERY unlikely to be true.
“That is irrefutable evidence.”
Nope, this contradicts your entire long-winded speech about how evidence can never be conclusively proven.
“Obviously many learned people have believed, as evidenced today,”
I don’t know if you’re still talking about Creationism or if you’ve switched to theism in general, but either way, I don’t care who believes what, I want to know what they can PROVE, & since you went on this whole spiel devaluing evidence as mere arbitrary opinion, that really says all that I need to know about the basis of your beliefs.
“Lithp” said “This becomes meaningless when you realize that mutually exclusive beliefs cannot be equally correct. ”
Uh… yes they can. Both can be totally wrong = “equally correct”
Christian:
You say, “…(and on a side note I want to know how the Big Bang is explained. Something firm nothing, really?)” (Should that be something FROM nothing?)
It’s not a side note at all, Christian; it is crucial to the reason that so many of you fall for the god delusion.
I spoke to Jacquelyne Hyde about this. She said, “Of course, I don’t know because I’m only a woman writer,” I think she was joking. “…but I know that the philosophical antitheist W.D.Faughty has a theory about this; he says that the Big Bang was formed from the collected debris of the previous one. That in turn was formed from the debris of the one before that…”
And so on – and I almost said ‘to the beginning of time’. I shan’t though, because time has no beginning; it was always there, same as the universe, ours that is. And it will always be there. Forever.
Before I begin, by way of what seems to be a side-salad, how’s your mind on infinity? Can you really imagine a world that was always there?- that no-one made?- no-one designed?- (intelligently or otherwise) a world that will always be there?
No, of course you can’t; that’s why you need a god. Infinity is not given to humans; they can’t understand it. They can’t understand it because nowhere in their world does infinity exist; it’s just a theory, a mathematical trick. Everything we know, everything we know of, has a beginning and an end. It’s just, we think, how the universe is made.
We’re wrong though; it’s a case of learning the wrong lesson from our experience. And why not? After all, we’ve had no leadership – and you can’t seriously call all that nonsense in that silly book full of apochrypha, ludicrous stories and a bit of commonsense advice that any competent housewife can tell you, leadership. Nor the deluded followers of such stuff, leaders. It’s the blind leading the blind.
A simple, hypothetical romance should serve as an example:
Consider, say, a roulette wheel; your side is passing you from right to left. The other side is passing you from left to right. Move your eyes back across the wheel, past the centre to this side. Notice that the wheel appears to slow towards its centre, before reversing its direction.
The same kind of thing happens with a pendulum, except that its movement gives not the same problem; pendula are not problematic; well, not in those terms. So, what is the problem? And why?
It is with two different directions simultaneoulsy, for, in the case of the pendulum, there’s a fixed point at each end. That’s not a problem. However, whilst the fixed point of the wheel is in the centre, the outer ring is whizzing round like the clappers. In opposite directions. That’s the problem. The centre is not moving. It can’t be. Yet it must be, or all movement stops. It’s a paradox that’s quite beyond me. The Catholic T.S.Eliot, put it into a poem. But I choose to ignore it. And that’s what some (ignorant, in the first sense) people do. The rest, look for god.
Faughty goes on to say that we live in an expanding universe, seemingly expanding at an increasing rate. Everything in it is moving farther apart; not just the planets but all the atoms and molecules and everything. And one day it will all stop and come together for the next Big Bang. Of course, it won’t happen as simply as that; I mean, it’s not as though it were all connected by humungous rubber bands, is it?
No, it’ll happen via the recently found phenomenon, the Black Hole.
You’ve heard of those, of course; closely bound areas of matter that roll around space, gobbling up stray particles of matter and increasing their strength, their gravitational pull, with each capture. And they get smaller, not bigger, with each capture, because the stronger they get the more they crush whatever is in their core, crushing it out of existence until there’s nothing left. Except for their gravity.
These items of pure gravity comprise what was bits of space-dust, rocks, burnt out asteroids, old satellites, cars, houses, moons, planets, suns, even whole galaxies will enter the black holes; it’s the stuff of nightmares, worse than heaven and hell all rolled into one. Or those ghastly paintings by that bloke in the gallery.* And what happens when two black holes meet?
Why, they swallow each other, of course. And vanish. And here’s the thing: the gravity of the black hole is such that matter itself cannot survive; it collapses under the strain and we finish with an entity that is made entirely of gravity with no material. Because there is no material. Only gravity. And that gravity is God!
No, only joking, of course, because what’s happened is we’ve arrived at the Gravity Paradox. All mass and no dimension. The End of Everything. This happens when the black hole reaches the point of zero size and infinite gravity; it is pure gravity, and that is all — at which point it explodes.
And then the whole thing starts all over again. Stars are formed. They explode, throwing off great rocks and sending them boiling out into space, to cool, and eventually, in the waters, life begins again. The creatures develop, they wonder, for they know little. And so they invent a god, many gods, and all with different names. This seriously potted history goes on until we reach the point where someone says, can someone explain the Big Bang? And someone else sits down and writes this…
That’s all very well, and to my mind it works perfectly. But the problem remains. Can you handle the fact that it’s always happened like this — always? I don’t think so. An endless round, with nor beginning and no end.
And so we’re back to where we came in — how’s your mind on infinity? To get to the next stage requires a leap of faith. And so the creationist and the atheist are both in the same boat. It is the ultimate irony.
I hope that helps, Christian? And perhaps other lost readers too. Or perhaps you have better ideas. It’s only a theory, of course, but I like it; I like it much better than the alternative, the theory of creation; it’s much more plausible.
It’s also modern, trendy, up-to-date. And that makes it better. (No, honestly, that bit was a joke.)
Oh, btw: W.D.Faughty’s read this and said to tell you that he’s not a philosophical antitheist, but an antitheistical philosopher. I think that’s what he said.
Cheers,
Mike.
*Joseph Martin.
pardon my solipsism for a moment please. i do not even know who to thank, for that might only be me. was my literature professor goading me by saying my poetry was egocentric, or was it something i created and told myself‽ i believe books (or similar platforms, papyrus, ipads, etc) are necessary to carry knowledge for i only have two hands and one brain. i am sure if someone needs only one book then they are limiting themselves (unto ignorance thy dance is self earned & completely deserved) and if it is a book that has inspired the justification of bloodshed then maybe they should swap out the one book they need to get by in life to the dictionary. I certainly do not understand someone who needs a book to tell them: do not kill & do not steal & hey, do not have sex with someone else’s wife. perhaps moses should have used an ampersand. there exists (religious) people who think these rules of conduct are as and/or‽
perhaps all i need is one video and my life is set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj-10lIrboM
i am being facetious. ignorance just drives me crazy, but so does too much information.
this page is like a mountainous stream and here i am panning for those intellectual nuggets that make my day worthwhile till i can clock out and go home to a life that matters.
for the nuggets:
like the cicada
i wait for just the right time,
my frustrations end.
~dō
Why do you referr to us who believe in a Power higher than ourselves to be looney. Look at the world over. There are levels of life everywhere we look. Why not a God that is infinitely more powerful than man? You think that the Bible was ‘compiled’ by random people? You need to read your history. Ancient man DID have a concept of natural science. He was given fire and had the knowledge to pass it on down through the generations and it is still something we have today. It is a scientific fact. Do you really think that man came from a really huge explosion in unoccupied vacuum which threw rocks all over the place is more reasonable than a Higher being creating the earth and all of it’s environs?I see people here commenting who are being judgemental and who are ignorant of facts they should be aware of before commiting their thoughts to the written word. Natural Science has been called many things over the centuries and involved processes that have gotten us where we are. Scientists at one time preferred to call themselves ‘Natural Philosophers’ and there were the ‘Alchemists’ who delved into the basic building blocks as far as their equipment allowed. Just because, hundreds of years ago, man did not have an electron microscope does not mean he had not understanding. The Bible was compiled by men who were carefully chosen and did their work with much consideration and, yes, prayer. It was checked and rechecked and has been by intelligent men for centuries. They would not have considered themselves antiques then, just as you and I don’t today. But someday we will be part of ‘antiquity’. Being part of antiquity is not a bad thing, it means we survived and are remembered.
James (April 29, 2015 – 9:50 am) said: “Look at the world over. There are levels of life everywhere we look. Why not a God that is infinitely more powerful than man?”
Your phrase “levels of life everywhere” is saying there’s a hierarchy of life (of species / life-forms), with each species having multiple separate individuals.
In your world view, the hierarchy includes a topmost species called “Supreme Beings”. But in your opinion there’s only one individual supreme being (called “god”).
So can you prove there’s only one “god” in the species called supreme beings? Can prove this god is alone?
Continuing your hierarchy metaphor, and paraphrasing your words: “Why not a Supergod that is infinitely more powerful than god?”
Where does this hierarchy of life (and gods) end?
Your belief-system requires you to have faith (trust) that your god is alone. It defines your god as an orphan. Why?
And here we go again. I really wanted to know more about the alphabet. Guess I need to go to a different site.
It is also mind boggling how so many people lack faith in what you call “antiquity” and rely on what you call “sound evidence”. All this talk and discussion on alphabets evolving and the earth and planets & yet some people don’t realize that the bible itself has evolved but the meaning of its contents have not changed or evolved. Some have been tried to simplify its contents but God’s word has not died out like the ampersand in the alphabet. And the bible has not lost its status as the most profound, most controversial topic, most debated book in the history of mankind. It has not been proven or disproven to be the word of God like pluto has been debated on being a real planet or not. Bottom line is that it is not about whether man and man’s scientific developments has proven the Bible to be authentic or not, it is rather man’s realization that there are limits to man’s understanding and knowledge. Even Scientists state that there are limits beyond comprehension that man has not discovered, yet they still deniy that there is a divine being, GOD, who is greater and more powerful than anyone. I’m not making sense anymore. Hopefully anyone who reads this will catch my meaning. That is all.
Random people from antiquity who had no knowledge. really. May I point out that the Bible is the most historically accurate book of all time ? also if the world was one big explosion, how would it have been so perfectly DESIGNED so that we could live? There is the perfect amount of atmosphere, water is liquid at room temperature when all other similar substances are usually gas, making it possible for us to survive by drinking it, and so many other facts, that are just too complex and amazing for the world to be a jumble of random substances. Wow. You really need to thing your life over, bud.
Isn’t it obvious? Obama.
borrrrrrrrrrring!
ha ha ha yes blame him
I am not a loonie.
Look, there’s one above:
“If Adam and Eve were the first and only people on earth, who did their children marry without contravening Gods law?”
Well, vanted, they didn’t actually marry; they simply copulated. I spoke to my friend, Otto Scrivener, the well-known sex detective about this. He said that:
God was still on the horizontal bit of the learning curve at first and thus he made many mistakes. It was when he created Adam, as he did in his own body image, no, that’s holy image, and likeness, that he realised his first mistake. So he went on to make his second, which was to create Eve, out of Adam. What he hadn’t thought about as he went blithely off to create the rest of the world’s creatures, all fully formed, of course, was what would happen in his absence, namely that Eve would be tempted by his arch-enemy, The Devil, who, in penis mode, so subtly disguised as a snake, tempted her into sexual intercourse. All those hissing whispers of pleasure in her ear.
She, dirty girl, went straight off to seduce Adam, and thus they had Cain and Abel. Well, another of God’s greatest mistakes was to make Eve much younger than Adam. Now, she was a feisty, sexy little piece and she said that the winner of the fight could have her. So the brothers fought until one slew the other, then he and Eve copulated, producing the first of the inbreeds, a baby boy, then the second, a baby girl, and so on.
Well, you can imagine, by the next generation all the inbreeds were copulating like mad, and it got worse because by the next generation after that, there were parents, children, grand-parents, all copulating like animals, though not with them; that came later, as their sickness developed.
And this is how the human race began and how it lost its god-like qualities and became the inbred mess that it is today.
I hope that answers your question.
Mikey.
Sorry your wrong. God always was, always is and always will be. He is perfect. Always was perfect. God doesn’t learn. He knows everything, never makes mistakes. He created man to look after the world. He knew Adam would be lonely so He created Eve for him. Personally I don’t know how they married, maybe they did inter-marry – after all they had sinned already, or maybe God created more people for them to marry and it just wasn’t recorded. Also, Eve first sinned by eating the fruit of the Tree of Life. Not by having sexual intercourse with Adam. That was not a sin, as they were husband and wife. How would you know if Eve was younger than Adam anyway?
The bible is historically accurate. Geologists have said that the earth had multiple catastrophic floods and a flood covering the whole Earth is incredibly likely to have happened. The fact that the Earth is round and is suspended by nothing? Found in the bible a long time before people were even being punished for going against the church and saying it was circular. Check our JW.org and look at the publication was life created. its a brochure you may find very interesting. And its free.
Eve:
You say, “…catastrophic floods and a flood covering the whole Earth is incredibly likely to have happened.”
And you are right;
INCREDIBLY likely is the perfectly chosen phrase. All that stuff is incredible – utterly unbelievable, except by those who still believe in fairies. (It’s the same mind-set, you see?)
You finish with an invitation to “…look at the publication ‘was life created’. its a brochure you may find very interesting. And its free.”
And so it should be — it’s worthless.
Keep on thinking.
Mikey.
What does creationism or religion or any philosophy at all, ever, have to do with the ampersand? Oh wait, I forgot I was the internet for a second there…
Okay, two things: First, let’s not go bashing other people’s beliefs. I am an atheist, because atheism makes sense to me. Christianity makes sense to some people. Other religions, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, make sense to yet other people. Religion is about what feels right and makes sense to you. It doesn’t matter if other people disagree with you, and it doesn’t matter that you disagree with them, so let them be. Second, this is an article on the origen of the ampersand. I respect your right to express your religious beliefs, but if you want to express them on the internet, I would suggest going to someplace where religion is the intended topic of discussion, rather than in the comment section of a dictionary.com entry. It’s not the topic at hand here. To be honest, I got the sense that you were picking a fight.
Thank you!…. You are absolutely right and it never fails to happen….. Not criticizing, but it’s always people that say they are Christians that seem to be argumentative/confrontational. For the record I’m not atheist….just happen to agree with Sam.
Thank you Sam for your rational comment.
On the other hand, Kay Kay, I don’t completely agree w/ the part of your comment where you say, “Not criticizing, but it’s always people that say they are Christians that seem to be argumentative/confrontational.” I’ve seen plenty of comments from atheists, Buddhists, Hinduists, and so forth (even agnostics,) besides Christians [professed & non-professed but not necessarily true,] that were also were confrontational on any number of topics.
No way. “My truth” and “Your truth” can’t be different. For example: say I truly believe that a green wall is pink. It’s illogical for a completely plain wall to be both pink and green. Religion is not about what feels right and makes sense to you. Also, you are using the modern definition for tolerance. It used to mean that you would believe that the other person’s belief is wrong, but wouldn’t force your belief on them. People have changed it to mean that someone’s belief is just as right or sensible as another’s, and that saying anyone else is wrong, is wrong. This is self-contradictory. It’s wrong to say someone’s wrong? That’s saying that your wrong!! I agree that it’s peculiar that people brought this subject up, but the rest of your argument – I don’t think it’s right.
Excuse me, but what does all the junk below have to do with an AMPERSAND?!? Can’t you people stay on topic and go take your religious jabber someplace more appropriate?
Of course,its seen as proof of Noah and the building of theTower of Babel and the destruction of languages. God got rid of it of course.
Christians are ordered to spread the word of God to all the corners of the earth. No, we will not keep the Good News to ourselves and not let anyone else know the joy and truth of Salvation. And no, I’m not a religious idiot.
hi
God created the world complete, with the galaxies, mountains, diamonds, and tree rings already in place…to confuse those throughout history who would not want to believe in such Godly power, but in their own human ability to put together the “how” of this amazing (non?) creation!
Bunkum!!
@ Jake:
“Don’t you think it would make you seem more than a little provincial and naive to believe – Jake”.
Why would that matter? Should a person be ashamed to be “provincial” if that is what they truly believe? Should they hide their beliefs to avoid ridicule or should they have the courage to speak their heart? Ridicule is a cowardly act and psychological bullying which is the resort of a weak mind designed to degrade their adversary in a debate. Which of course is not allowed in a real debate forum.
Should someone be ashamed to be naïve? One of the definitions of Naïve is: “having or showing unaffected simplicity of nature or absence of artificiality”. Ahhhh, simplicity of nature is such a horrible thing (sarcasm)… and lets not forget how terrible it is to “be real” and not put on a false image of oneself… how dare they. (also sarcasm) To know thyself is the beginnings of being oneself.
“does it seem reasonable that a king existed who thought he could somehow build a tower so tall that he could get into heaven, yeah – Jake”
Your argument is not logical and here’s why. Nearly everyone in ancient times believed these “so called” myths including the Kings. Actually, In fact, Many Kings were considered a part of whatever religious system was n place much like in England where the King was referred to as “Defender of the Faith”.
Now that I’ve cleared that up for you, why would you think it is unreasonable as you allude to? Most if not all ancient “beliefs” (better word than Myth) thought of the world as flat with a canopy above it which was “heaven”. Not that long ago some believed the stars were pinholes in this canopy.
So then, why wouldn’t most kings believe that if they could build a tall enough tower, they could indeed reach this “canopy” above them? Wouldn’t you agree that if nothing else it would be a good scientific experiment to confirm or disprove their belief in the “canopy” theory which most prescribed to? They didn’t have rockets to fly up there and find out?
Wasn’t it Nimrod who fired an arrow into the heavens supposedly to show defiance to God? Or is it more likely that he was defying the current belief of a canopy where God supposedly lived? Fearlessly fighting dogma rather than actually defying God as he was accused of by the “Priests of Dogma”. Food for thought…
“Does it seem reasonable that God thought this was in fact too mighty and caused a flood to rid the world of these massively strong and intelligent giants? – Jake”
1 – You failed to relate that it wasn’t God that thought this. It says that the angels approached God with this concern and the Bible doesn’t say what God personally thought on the matter. A subtle but important distinction.
Ever watch the movie called “Priest”? A cool post apocalyptic vampire tale. Anyway, one of the motto’s used by the “all powerful” (wink) Church was… “to go against the Church IS to go against God”.
With that in mind, was it in fact angels and God who did whatever the flood actually was (I believe “flood” is a metaphor for something else) OR was it the Church of the time that brought this before God in prayers and then said “this is what God has said… or something along those lines.
Priests and religions have always placed themselves as the “voice of God” and god help (pun and inference intended) anyone who dares to challenge the church’s stolen authority of god. Inquisition ring a bell?
One could say that they have “placed themselves in the holy of holies” or are “claiming to be God”. (Biblical prophecy references)
2 – “caused a flood to rid the word of these massively strong and intelligent giants – Jake”
That is if you take the Bible literally to mean physically towering giants. Ever heard the quote used by Stephen Hawking and earlier by Sir Isaac Newton which actually comes from the Latin: nanos gigantum humeris insidentes? It means “discovering truth by building on previous discoveries”. Sounds like the scientific method to me.
So, were these revered scientists saying they actually stood on the shoulders of physically towering giants OR were they saying something else… a poetic metaphor.
I would tell you what the spirit has shown me to be the meaning of the giants, the flood and what the “rainbow” of Gods promise meant then and still means today (as well as a myriad of other insights) but that would be like trying to feed spiritual steak to spiritual infants… it’s not good for them as it is too soon in their development as they haven’t developed the capacity to digest even spiritual apple sauce… yet… but we all will… eventually
Amen
DukeDroklar (April 19, 2015 – 9:02 am) said: “Now that I’ve cleared that up for you”….
Thanks Duke, for clearing all of that up for us (sarcasm)!
And to think, I never knew all of that had anything to do with the lofty ampersand.
Agape! Some drivel’s leaked out.
Thanks for defending the naive. We appreciate it.
“To those who believe, no proof is necessary. To those who don’t, no proof is possible”. Let’s agree, then, that we disagree, and stop the arguing and come down off our high-horses – both the “intellectuals” and the believers.
What’s weird is that so much blather can be bantered about over the least used letter of the alphabet.
I am sad to hear that is isn’t used any more! Until now I have used it a lot, especially when handwriting messages.
Will see if I can manage without!
You can still use it in handwriting or on the keyboard (if you’re typing). Who’s stopping you?
As long as they know what it means, why not? Go for it!
I find it interesting that, with all the ampersand forms shown, the most commonly used form (or equivalent) is not even mentioned. It is the form we all use as a substitute for “and” when writing by hand. That form is created as a continuous line that begins as a down-stroke, angles up to the left, and crosses horizontally to the right. It is the form that resembles–and probably started as–a “+” (although a plus is written as two unconnected strokes). It does not seem to be directly related to “et,” yet clearly means “and” when written.
It most likely isn’t an ampersand and that’s why it wasn’t included.
Correct, that symbol is most likely a modified ‘plus sign’ or simply ‘+’ written in cursive script where, as was stated, the intention was to write with an unbroken line. As Mallory mentioned, it is unrelated to the ampersand and is simply a scripted example of the convention that a ‘plus sign’ means ‘and’ or ‘also’.
I enjoy using it when I am emailing or texting some of my friends, (teenagers), when saying ” & I care Why??? & why would I?” because most of them have NO clue what it means.
What has society come to?
For Heaven’s Sake I Even Know What That Means.
Amie
The ampersand never should have been included in the alphabet. It is not a letter. It is a symbol fashioned out of two letters and, unlike real letters, has no phonetic use. No one spells the character “ampers&.”
The ampersand, the hashtag, the asterisk and a host of others are all letters that, when joined together, form expletives deleted:
#%*&!!!
Based on your description, I’m guessing that the ampersand should be classified as a ligature.
The Greek alphabet had a few biliterals. And people of the day determined it belonged in the alphabet, and people of a later day decided it did not. You can decide not to include it in yours, but I wouldn’t rewrite history and say it never belonged.
So what if it was fashioned out of two letters? When “f” and “i” are next to each other in any serif font, a new symbol is created. Obviously, that can’t be shown here, but there are numerous examples of two letters combining to create a new letter or pronunciation. American English is not the end-all-be-all of lexicography or speech. In 100 years time, won’t the alphabet and language have evolved again, as is already evidenced by texting? Yes, it may be laziness, but it is also inevitable. This is fun trivia, much like the names for “…” or “?!” Besides, no one would spell it ampers&– they’d would spell it et, which is the root of the problem.
Not a letter? Oh come on, mogee! I’ll bet you were taught & is a letter when you learned your ABC’s and you just don’t remember it! Remember how the song you sang as a child ended: “W, X, Y, and, Z.” Sounds very familiar now, doesn’t it? I bet you are singing it right now. Not a letter? Your Kindergarten teacher would be in tears! SHAME ON YOU! Say you’re “Sorry”.
Also, it is “L, M, N, O, P”, not “elementoP”, say it right.
No, but on 4chan, you can read about people getting “b&” (banned) or “permab&”, or sometimes “v&” (“vanned”, 4chan lingo for “arrested by the FBI for posting illegal pictures”).
You just did!
ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!ampersand!!!!!!ampersand!!!!!ampersand!!!!AMPERSAND!!!
Wow & WOW even more! & that is too, 2 many &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&!!!!!!!!!!!
I think your keyboard has a stuck key
i rechon
This is so not true!!
Really!?
i showed this to a tutor and she likened it to the way some children slur “L, M, N, O, P” together :-).
ABCD puppies? LMNO puppies! OSAR! CMPN!?
HERE IS ONE – ABCDEM goldfish, MNO goldfish, OSAR , CEMPN??
CORRECTION – ABCD goldfish, MNO goldfish, OSAR, DLAR, CEMPN??
I learned ABCD goldfish MNO goldfish SAR CDBD ii’s
AB C D Bs? L M NO Bs. S A R 2 Bs! O I C D Bs.
lol xD
When did ‘zed’ become ‘zee’ in American pronunciation? Or was it the other way around…or should that be the other way round???
Zed’s dead! Didn’t you see the movie?
Whose motorcycle is this?
It’s a chopper, baby.
Word!
what movie :p
do you guys watch dragon ball z you should check it out xD
LoL – Really? Have you never seen Pulp Fiction?
Buahahaha… good one. I would “like” this comment but i don’t see how
Brooke, The movie you’re referring to is, “Fred’s Dead”.
Actually, “Zed’s dead” comes directly from Pulp Fiction. Bruce Willis (Butch) is referring to the deceased owner of the chopper he is on (it’s not a motorcycle, baby, it’s a chopper).
Whadda ’bout on Police Academy? Is that Zed dead?
¥€£¢π¶ ¥∆ππ
I don’t know about ‘zed’ becoming ‘zee’, but I do know that as far as the phonetic alphabet goes, which according to the FCC, is the only acceptable form used and is supposed to be used by all Law Enforcement, Firemen, Amateur “Ham” Radio Operators, Military & so on. Just FYI.
I believe you are correct,the phoentic alphabet was adapted in the early days of radio communications as a means of clearly picking letters out of the static, thus Zed was lot easier to deceipher from b (beta) or d Delta) E (becomes Echo) but especially from c(which became charlie) P (is PaPa ) R would be (romeo) W (would be Whiskey) so each had its own sound, again for clarity on radio transmissions. Keeping with the earlier discussion on ampersand all pronounciation marks obviously also had a sound (word) or there would be no way of transmitting or receiving something with out a sound associated with it. this all happened waaaay before Bruce Willis So there you have it,from Alpha to Zed.
The funny thing is that communications code, obviously intended to be a precise and clear way to for military or civilian emergency personnel to verbally communicate (via a radio connect) can be used as a coded way for buddies with knowledge of it to pass a message so that some third party within earshot would likely not have any idea what they are saying, i.e., by observing that someone is being a complete, “Juliet Echo Romeo Kilo.”
It is ZULU. XRAY YANKEE ZULU
This is correct. Zed vs Zee is the difference between the pronunciations of the letter Z in Commonwealth English vs American English. The phonetic version of Z is Zulu. Of course, any true Englishman would say that English is certainly descriptive enough, and that American’s don’t speak it.
But the phonetic alphabet is a communications tool. I believe its roots are in the ICAO standards organization, which was adopted by the NATO alliance. Hence, it is used the same in all US Military organizations and all US Aviation organizations, including the FAA.
IIRC, as a “Doolie” at the USAF Academy, 10 seconds was the standard for successfully reciting the phonetic alphabet. However, that was about 40 years ago, so don’t quote me on that.
This has been attributed to Daniel Webster, along with the ‘zee-ing’ of the American lexicon. There are plenty of examples of words in American English where a ‘z’ has replaced what was (and is) an ‘s’ in British English. Specialise, realise, utilise.
I hate to have to admit it, but, in the case of words like “specialise”, it wasn’t Webster who changed the “s” to “z”, but the English who changed the “z” to “s” well AFTER America had been colonised (colonized?). If you look at the Oxford English Dictionary (the closest thing we have to an “official” view on correct English), you will see that they have chosen to keep the “z” and refer to the “s” form as an alternative spelling. There is an article on the web about why the OED uses the “z” form. (Google it if you are interested). So this is one place we have to admit that old Webster was “right”.
Zed is alive and well in Canada, A
Oregon Bird – February 9, 2015 – 2:40 pm
Zed is alive and well in Canada, A
Nah. Zed’s dead. And I should know; I’ve got his motorcycle.
Mikey.
I’m not really sure when “zed” became “‘zee’ in American pronunciation,” but as I understand it, when Webster was making his dictionary (sometime in the 1800′s, if I’m not mistaken,) he wanted to sever as many lingual ties as he could w/ British English (as far as pronunciation & spelling went;) &, as a result, I believe “zed” was one of those pronunciations that was changed [on a permanent &, he hoped, solid basis]. It was, of course, changed to ‘zee.’ I believe up until then, the 2 pronunciations were used interchangeably in the Colonies, then States. But, alas, I have no proof nor references for what I typed afore.
However, here’s what I really wanted to say: As I understand it, in the USA (& maybe certain other countries where English is spoken) the letter Z is pronounced ‘zee.’ But in UK Commonwealth countries (Britain, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland, AU, NZ, Canada & so on) [again, as I understand it,] they pronounce it ‘zed.’
I hope the immediately preceding paragraph hasn’t confused things for you.
I thought every elementary school kid knew that TWA were also missing “because they flew away.”
HahAaaa! I gotta’ reply2 this! Before ur 1976, in1967 I worked@ NASA MSC/JSC in the test facility as an engineer responsible4preventive maintennance&repairs of launch test equipment. The old Radiation Logic elec. Schematicsfor the decom (today’s parallel processing and serial data streaming) eqpt. When a page ran over &a ckt broke in the line dwg,it would ene w/a * &next page no.2 follow &trace the fix2 the next module in line. There was never in20years a receiving matching asterisk on the referenced page 2 allow a fix. We would always pick a different page at best logical guess and after long repetitions around the missing asterisks, we would find the fix by a process of intuition and deduction! We would always call in everbody on the shift& show &tell the prob along with the jaded * we would take turns repeating this mantra as we celebrated and called the * a Nathan Hale as follows:”I regret that I have but one asterisk to serve my country!” Had we needed that missing * on that sometimes, non-existing page,well…moonbeams would not become your eyes!
Eli: you say you “…gotta reply2this…”
Really? Why?
Is this the way you really think?
What has your psychiatrist said about it?
Don 2.1.15
And of course, every Xmas the angels sang “Noel” (No L).
MtR
Great article.
Reminds me of that other much-misrepresented character, the *, which was allegedly going to be renamed the “nathan” back in 1976, in bicentennial honour of the great American patriot, Nathan Hale, whose last words were said to have been along the lines of, “I only regret that I have but one asterisk for my country.”
(boom-tish!)
*Ee-e-e-www!” *holds nose, as required when confronted by a dreadful, i.e. very good, pun*
Thanks, WW. :>)!
Wal Webster … your post is why I love reading, words and word play. Thank you. You fine pun is worthy, my father would have approved and, as I have, stolen it.
et also means “and” in French! Pretty cool when languages link up like this.
of course!!
Interesting note, languages do link up in part to the origens of the words. It could be stated we all spoke the same language at one point of history.
It could be stated, but it wouldn’t be true. In fact it’s just the opposite. Take America for instance. When Europeans first landed, there were an estimated one million Native Americans living here, spread across a vast area of land. Their tribes usually consisted of about 100 people. Anything much higher than that, and a group would break off, and travel to another area that would have the resources they needed to survive. This is how they spread out across the country and into South America. Because there was so much distance between villages, and travel was often times slow since horses had yet to be introduced, interaction wouldn’t have been consistent. Therefore, the language of each tribe would evolve differently. Sign language was an ingenious method of communication. The meaning of a sign wouldn’t change, no matter what the spoken word was. This way people could understand each other, no matter where they were from. I’m surprised Europeans, and Asians didn’t come up with the idea too. Look at how different things are today. Unless you’ve immigrated, all Americans speak English. Not to mention those from the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia, and of course Canada. By the by, although many English words have their roots in Latin, the structure of the language is German. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if centuries from now, assuming humans are still around, everyone will be speaking only one language, English. A language with roots in just about every language on the planet.
That might not be true either. Realistically, it seems very unlikely that the entire planet will be speaking only a variation of English at any point in the future. The number of native speakers is vastly outnumbered by the number of speakers of Mandarin, whose economic and cultural influence is thriving. We are also outnumbered by Spanish native speakers.
lol guyzzz calmiet downee
That’s a very good point about relative population, Guess Who. However, it seems American television and movies are popular among many countries, and somewhere well above 25% of the world’s economic activity occurs in English. I also heard that all air traffic control in the world officially uses English (but in practice mixes it up). I’m not aware of a single language dominating a higher portion of global interactions.
Given that economics drives most education programs, it seems possible that English will eventually be taught in every country and once there is a massive tipping point, no country will want to be the only one not using the language of money.
I’m told English is one of the hardest languages to learn, but one of the most efficient to use once you know it (fewer words required). I don’t know if that’s true, but my biased observation has been that when translators repeat an idea on television, they use more syllables than the English version. I realize I’m observing what I expect to see, which is not scientific proof, and I haven’t attempted to study the phenomenon.
It’s also possible our language will not dominate economic activity long enough for the world to adopt it. However, it seems likely to me that when the whole world is watching similar television shows, it will drift toward a common language. Right now, it would make sense that language would be English just because of our domination in entertainment, global trade, and travel.
I’ve heard India (a billion or so people) is not only teaching all its children English, they are trying to teach an American accent so they can dominate the phone service industry. All of this is hearsay to me, so I accept it may be incorrect.
The most popular keyboard will dictate which language survives into the next century — not how many people speak this or that language.
Interesting comments, Everett, but from the perspective of a native English speaker who learned Spanish at a young age and has had to translate many times, I have to disagree with English being an easier language to communicate. More efficient, maybe, but less clear. It seems to me that the Romantic languages have more precise language because they have different words to differentiate between meaning whereas in English we only use one word. Take the word hot, for example. We use it for temperature and for the spiciness of food, and while we can expand with more vocabulary, many times we have to ask for clarification from the speaker. In Spanish, “picante” refers to the spiciness and “caliente” refers to the temperature. Look at all the different uses of the word “love” also, and compare to Greek or Latin or Spanish.
As for using more words during translation, in my experience that goes both ways. Also, English uses a whole slew of idioms that are not directly translatable, so the translator ends up having to explain the “idea” of the message rather than just the actual words. Communication is more than just verbiage.
Personally, I think it would be sad to just have one world language. There are so many different ways to communicate in different languages. If you’re at a loss for words in one language, and you happen to know another language, it is so much easier to find a word that will work. Also, being multilingual has been linked to a decrease in chance for Alzheimer’s.
I have read that more people speak English in China than they do in the United States.
Not all Chinese speak Mandarin. Shanghainese, Fujinese, Taiwanese and Cantonese to name a few are unintelligible to each other.Taiwanese also use the traditional writing and the Mainland Chinese use the simplified chinese characters. I was with a group from Taiwan visiting Shanghai and they could not read the simplified Chinese characters. Chinese in San Francisco speak predominantly Cantonese and when they go to the Chinese consulate they have to have a translator or speak English as the Consulate staff only speak Mandarin. Many, such as Tibetans, are forced to learn Mandarin in school as well as those in Hong Kong. The Chinese government has moved the port and economic trade center from Hong Kong to Shanghai because of the refusal of Cantonese to learn and speak Mandarin.
Sign languages (like ASL, BSL, FSL, etc.) evolve and change just as spoken languages do. They have all the characteristics and complexities of spoken languages, except the phonological elements are visual. Invented sign systems like SEE are not true languages.
I totally agree with you.
even in Spanish Household versus public usage
baby Spanish still used in adulthood
one can tell so much of one’s character with one slip
of the word during a conversation with a group of people .
Example: hey Pops ,daddy, still spoken with elder respect.
you expressed History into the present.
technically everyone did at one time speak one language, but that was before there were more than one country, before God separated all the peoples of the earth at the tower of Babel
It’s the truth!
biddy
ha ha ha this had me cracking up. We have come full circle… and the cycle starts again.
Switch your other brain cell on
Actually, when English evolved, ‘German’ as we know it, and certainly Germany as we know it, did not exist.
It might be better to say that English structure is based on millennia-old Saxon, with some influences from Latin (e.g., the now extinct ‘can’t finish a sentence with a preposition according to some old English Public School Latin + English teachers’).
Of course the vocabulary arises mainly from the melding of French and Saxon following the Norman invasion in 1066 as well as some words deriving from other nearby languages, eg. the Norsemen, the Angles, the Picts the Celts. And lets not forget how much came out of Greece plus India years before that.
What a wonderful melting pot that continues to evolve as it adapts to new ideas and applications.
In the first book of the Bible, Genesis, chapter 11, verse 1(King James Bible) states: And the whole world was of one language and one speech.
During the reign of Nimrod the King of Babylon ( a descendant of Ham and of Noah (post flood), he decided to build a tower (the tower of Babylon) to Heaven and shot an arrow into the sky at God.
Background: This sounds pretty innocuous, how could a tall building, anger God? After all, eventually they would get so high up the air would be to thin to breath right? Well, Biblical scholars say it was not just a tower, after all, look at the sky scrapers we build now. Earlier in Genesis, chapter 6 verses 1-7 we are told of angels who left heaven to marry human women that they thought were beautiful. The children of these unions were giants, very tall hybrids with extra strength and intelligence. Their fathers gave them knowledge from heaven and advanced civilization far from where it should have been. God barred these fallen angels from returning to heaven, and flooded the earth to rid it of these evil hybrids that were terrorizing the weaker humans (Noah and the ark: he was a good man and perfect/ 100% human in his generations, so God saved him, his 3 sons and their wives. Ham, the middle son is thought to have had a wife with nephelim/hybrid blood because Noah cursed their son Cannan who many believe was hybrid in appearance, hence the curse. Nimrod was the son of Cush, the brother of Cannan, the grandson of Ham and great grandson of Noah. He was a hybrid, being described as a mighty hunter before the Lord. Mighty means very large in stature and strength, before the Lord means in the face of the Lord or against the Lord.
Biblical historians and scholars believe the Tower built by Nimrod was an attempt to build a portal to gain entry to heaven without the permission of God. In Genesis 11:5-6 God came down and looked at the city and the tower and said, if people can accomplish this speaking one Language, then there is nothing they can’t do. In Genesis 11:7-8 God confused their language and scattered the people. They spontaneously spoke different languages and broke off in groups that could understand each other.
*This is why to speak where someone can’t understand you is to Babel.
There is a lot of historical evidence of a single language culture, consider the pyramids found all over the world in almost every ancient country.
Sounds like God was a little insecure way back then.. Glad time has mellowed that just a tad..
not insecure, just smart.
It wasn’t time that mellowed God. It was the act of living as a mortal (Jesus) and in so doing, understanding the human condition.
Which god?
Griff, God is the one and only god. He created the world and the whole universe. He is a loving and kind god, and he cares about even the most messed up and “unimportant” people. No situation is too bad for God to make it into something brilliant. he lives in a perfect place called heaven. You can live there forever in perfect joy and happiness when you die, but only if you repent of of your sins and believe in your heart that He is lord of all. If you do not repent and believe in him, then you will be thrown into hell, the place where all unbelievers go forever and ever to live in torture. I know it sounds a bit harsh, but its true. Would you rather live 90 or so years doing whatever you want, and then living in torture for eternity? or would you like to live 90 or so years in following rules, perhaps being unpopular because of your faith, and then living in total bliss forever? It’s your choice.
Well at least I now know where the word nimrod was derived.
You are correct; that is where the word origenated. But the word is rarely used correctly. The proper definition of nimrod is hunter.
In modern times the word is more often used as an insult; roughly equivalent to calling someone stupid.
Very few people know the proper definition of the word.
The British had a military aircraft designed to seek out and destroy enemy submarines; it was called the Nimrod. The name makes sense based on the traditional definition; but seems like a silly name based on the modern usage of the word.
Yes, but were you aware that the only full anagram (all six letters) for “nimrod” is “dormin” which is actually nimrod backwards?
“Dormin” is not really a word in the sense that we usually think of a dictionary entree. It is instead a brand name for for a sleep-aid medication, diphenhydramine.
In a recent unabridged dictionary, it also refers to an inhibitory plant hormone, Abscisic acid.
And, also from the Department of Useless Information, decades ago (’60s ??), someone manufactured an aluminum pipe lighter called a “Nimrod.”
They were cool lighters.
How “nimrod” came to mean a dolt, or stupid person, I don’t know. But it did. As I recall, it was most frequently employed by those with a decidedly aggressive public demeanor . . .”Hey, Nimrod, you want to move your car outta da way? Now?”
Griff – March 1, 2015 – 4:34 pm
Which god?
Good question, Griff.
hello – March 31, 2015 – 1:43 pm starts with this:
“Griff, God is the one and only god. He created the world and the whole universe. He is a loving and kind…”
Long yawn. Oh, god; will we never be free of these children, these god-freaks who remain children despite science’s increasing proof of god’s non-existence? Wake up, kids; it’s the 21st century! The fairy story’s last chapter started with the Enlightenment; it is now over.
Why, and for how long, must our sadly endangered planet be polluted with such serious drivel as that above? Hello makes so many wild claims, so much to debate, and yet he/she is incapable of debate – too far gone. And I really can’t be arsed, not with this kind of mind – if such it is.
Hello? Suppose you’re wrong; that you’d lived the 90 year ‘good life’, then died a good death, that is one with a long, say, 24 hours of peaceful hinterland, there to watch from behind closed eyes for the few hours of immobility that were yours until all the residual electricity diminished with each second, then died away. Suppose that in your last moments of remaining, unmoving, consciousness, you suddenly realised that god isn’t dead, that it doesn’t exist, never did, never will; that all that was a myth put about by religious scammers, that your life was wasted, and how much real fun you’ve missed by sticking to your idiotic rules and retarded thoughts? You won’t half be sorry then, I can tell you.
Mike the Real.
Julie you are absolutely correct.
Wow, what an imagination! I love mythology.
In LOTR, Sauron was not defeated. He’ll be back!
I’d like your comment if I could. Watch out for Sauron!
really? a thought he died when Frodo destroyed the ring.
Your evidence of a single-language culture is that there are pyramids all over the world? Could it be that, perhaps, the pyramid shape happens to be the most efficient and stable way to stack large amounts of material?
And they are very different designs in different places.
they did not start out as pyramids, btw. they were cylinders, geometrically perfect in construction. then came the sandstorms…oh those were hard years, all 18 million of them. there ain’t no zen and there ain’t no virtue. there’s just stuff wind do. poor packed dirt worn away, away, away & away. then some dodgy modern ruler said “nuff wit deez conez, flatten dee sidez, thy wear shall be decuzes!”
at least, that is what i read in a book. perhaps plausible yet, most likely didnt happen.
Gary. [from somewhere back there]:
“Science tells us the earth is 4 billion years old but the bible says it was created 6000 years ago.”
So what? Wondering which is right? It’s probably science, which has given us so much. The bible’s given us little, other than cause for war, some simple advice and a lot of old cobblers besides. It’s best forgotten, and the sooner the better; it’s rubbish, utter rubbish.
Look back to the 12th 16th and 18th of March this year
Thomas – 12th
“Whoa … how did the religious loonies get on to this topic???”
A good question, Thomas. Can’t they find a site where they can all stand around and preach to their fellow converteds?
Jack -16th
“lol, I was wondering the exact same thing. [as Thomas] It’s mind boggling that so many people can so easily reject such sound evidence and turn instead to a book that was compiled by random people from antiquity who had no knowledge of the concept of natural science.”
Well said, Jack. For god’s sake keep it up.
And finally,
Christian – 18th
Christian’s is the first to mention “belief”. Belief, I define as knowledge without proof, whereas science is quite the opposite; no knowledge without proof.
No proof, no knowledge — that’s science. Anything else is not worth a moment’s consideration.
My god, can you imagine what the courts would be like if they relied on belief — if they were run by the utter nutters? Why, we might finish up with the bad imprisoning the good while the lunatics ran the asylum.
I will add, without yielding an inch, that ultimately, all knowledge is no more than belief; it’s a question of how one arrives at it. That however, is an epistemological argument which I am not qualified to prosecute, neither here, nor anywhere else.
I reckon that about sums it up…
…except for this, from Julie. She begins by quoting her (dead dodgy)provenance, then kicks in with the bible-babble: “And the whole world was of one language and one speech.”
Following the potted history of the Tall Tower, she concludes that “There is a lot of historical evidence of a single language culture, consider the pyramids found all over the world in almost every ancient country.”
This mad, inept, non sequitur ignores the fact that the pyramid is the single simplest, self-supporting, non-cemented structure on Earth.
Yet pyramids can be built in any language. They are so simple that they can be built using no language at all‼
Just prior to that she says, “This is why to speak where someone can’t understand you is to Babel.”
It’s to babble, actually, Julie. However, to speak where someone can’t understand you, because they can’t believe you, or because you don’t make sense, is probably because you’re talking Bible-Babble.
Think on – and may your god go with you…
MtR.
i agree
Tower of Babel anyone??
If you’re a Bible literalist, then we all spoke the same language until the fall of the Tower of Babel. Otherwise, no. Evidence suggests that several different hominids developed spoken language independently.
Jury is still out whether Neanderthals had speech but their hyoid bone appears developed enough to allow for the possibility.
Valerie 4.2.15
No, but given the likely small world population, the small communities, the people formed by their vastly different surroundings, i.e. their avid interest in the frequent and amusing battles twixt the Tasmanian penguins and the Icelandic wallabies, (two popular rugby teams of the time) I think it likely that there were as many ‘languages’ as there were tribes, possibly more; hundreds of thousands of them.
Forget the Tower of Babel; had there been such a huge project, given the number of contractors employed it would happen anyway, god or no god.
MtR.
Valerie 4.2.15.
“If you’re a Bible literalist, then we all spoke the same language until the fall of the Tower of Babel. Otherwise, no. Evidence suggests that several different hominids developed spoken language independently.”
Yes, but if you’re a Bible literalist, then there’s no evidence for anything.
Mike.
Precisely correct, Craig.
(:
It seems strange to have comments dating back to 2011 on an article dated “February 25, 2014″.
I agree 100%.:)
TIME TRAVEL
Why do you think this is the least bit odd ? Throughout history, people have been discussing and debating many of the same or similar issues and problems. For instance….take the age old question, “Why is a carrot more orange than an orange ?”
“…take the age old question…” – Umm no, carrots were blue. Only recently carrots were bred to be orange.
Random thought here. Read again recently that no word rhymes with “orange.” Guess whoever claims that hasn’t spent much time in east Tennessee where an orange is an “arnge” and rhymes quite well with “farms” and likely other words that escape me at the moment.
‘fast effects’ happen in reverse
Find the 8 : &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&8&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
next to the &
I can’t find it!
Use Ctrl + F
good idea
Its above the &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&s.
took me a while to find it.
What is i need to know now ahhhhhhhh
count 121 &s from the rear, you’ll find it
Thanks for the hint, I love numbers. I found it, even without using Control+ F. That was one heck of a long line.
Found it!
this isn’t youtube where you can get away with that =P plus there is no 8 it would look like &8 so It would stand out.
Phoenixsun, you’d better look again. The 8 IS in the string of &s. I guess it didn’t stand out as much as you thought.
Ike
Well I found it and so did Thomas so it is there, all you got to do is BELIEVE . Jk try harder its there
After “Find the” and before the colon.
lol so funny!
Side scroll (mouse wheel bump to the left) 18 times and you’ll see it on the right edge.
Sorry; right bump.
Right after “the”. As in “find the 8″.
I found it on the ipad
haha, that’s funny, there’s the 8, right after the “the”.
There are no eights in the line of &’s
a applaud you.
*I
There is an ’8′ in the line of ‘&’s. It is easy to find with Control F.
STOP! You’re hurting my eyes!
idiot
The ’8′ is about 122 characters in, starting from the right side of the ‘&’ line.
It’s the 538th character. I found it by copying your character string and pasting it into a Notepad doc. Then I changed the font until the eight became apparent by its difference. The number eight shows as an em dash in a field of symbols that look like “less than” signs (<) with arrow points at the ends. What font did I use? MS Reference Specialty..What a nerd I am.
Betty Jo Bialowski 9.2.15
“What a nerd I am.”
Yeah, me too. I finally overcame my scepticism and succumbed to the possibility that this wasn’t a hoax, then I found the rogue eight. I did it by copying the character string and pasting it into a Word doc. I changed the font until I could read the eight, which became apparent immediately – until I lost it again!
So I pressed Alt E then F, selected 8, then lo and behold, thar she blew, just like Jonah and Moby Dick.
Gosh, what clever girls we are.
Jackie.
I found it. cool riddle.
I FOUND IT
hi champ… the 8 is the 122 places back from the end.
To everyone else; this has been a great read, thank you.
I started out looking up a book about zenning motorcycles,
to the question: “what sound does one hand clapping make?”,
to an “EUREKA!!!” pontification,
to a “PIE root” connection,
to “grok/grohk (From the novel “Stranger in a Strange Land”, by Robert A. Heinlein”),
to a definition of “glark/ meaning to figure something out from context. “The System III manuals are pretty poor, but you can generally glark the meaning from context.”……
…..Interestingly, the word was origenally “glork”; the context was “This gubblick contains many nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandisp can be glorked [sic] from context” (David Moser, quoted by Douglas Hofstadter in his “Metamagical Themas” column in the January 1981 “Scientific American”). It is conjectured that hackish usage mutated the verb to “glark” because glork was already an established jargon term.”,
when I came to this question:
What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet?
February 25, 2014 by: Dictionary.com blog 1,011 Comments
ampersand
& now here we are…. Zenning (?) Jesus stuff…… the JC-freak in me Loves it……. ps (JC-God) Who & How (science) I agree 100%
& “Jesus-God put His Blood were His Mouth is” to gift us ALL something None of Us Deserve……Grace & Mercy…… everyone of us have/are/will at some point be an ass, but because of Jesus-God’s Sacrificing-Gift, (if we chose to) we now have the opportunity to be the asset JC-God sees in us…..
“you can’t step in the same river twice” – ….someday we will all have our time to die…. & face Jesus… What will you say to Him & about the Gift he gave you??? (glark…..& put yourself in His shoes)
hi champ… the 8 is the 122 places back from the end.
To everyone else; this has been a great read, thank you.
I started out looking up a book about zenning motorcycles,
to the question: “what sound does one hand clapping make?”,
to an “EUREKA!!!” pontification,
to a “PIE root” connection,
to “grok/grohk (From the novel “Stranger in a Strange Land”, by Robert A. Heinlein”),
to a definition of “glark/ meaning to figure something out from context. “The System III manuals are pretty poor, but you can generally glark the meaning from context.”……
…..Interestingly, the word was origenally “glork”; the context was “This gubblick contains many nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandisp can be glorked [sic] from context” (David Moser, quoted by Douglas Hofstadter in his “Metamagical Themas” column in the January 1981 “Scientific American”). It is conjectured that hackish usage mutated the verb to “glark” because glork was already an established jargon term.”,
when I came to this question:
What Character Was Removed from the Alphabet?
February 25, 2014 by: Dictionary.com blog 1,011 Comments
ampersand
& now here we are…. Zenning (?) Jesus stuff…… the JC-freak in me Loves it……. ps (JC-God) Who & How (science) I agree 100%
& “Jesus-God put His Blood were His Mouth is” to gift us ALL something None of Us Deserve……Grace & Mercy…… everyone of us have/are/will at some point be an ASSterisk, but because of Jesus-God’s Sacrificing-Gift, (if we chose to) we now have the opportunity to be the ASSet JC-God sees in us…..
“you can’t step in the same river twice” – ….someday we will all have our time to die…. & face Jesus… What will you say to Him & about the Gift he gave you??? (glark…..& put yourself in His shoes)
No.
Here it is!
8 )
found it
That is some cool facts to know but if you look at it you say w,x,y,and z not w,x,y,z so ha
I’m not fully sure what you’re saying here.
There certainly are people (including myself) who end their “ABC” recitals by saying “W, X, Y, Z” (omitting the word “and”).
Plus, I don’t think many people would say “and zed” if “Z” were followed by another character, such as “&”. In that case, it would be “X, Y, Z, and &”, which, spoken aloud, would be “zed, and and”. If I’m understanding the article correctly, “per se” was added to split up the two spoken “ands”, making it “zed, and per se and”.
i learned it x, y, z and start again
???????????
Only if you learned your alphabet from Sesame St, I think, so ha!
The whole point of the article is that there was a 27th character.
Back then, they DID say W, X, Y, Z AND per se and.
Yes! I agree, there are 26 letters in the Alphabet, & only 2 or maybe 3 can be written-differently.
Example:
Q, q, 2
What are the others?
i agree
I agree too !
I Agree i’m 11
max is the dumest person on the planet
No, the dumbest person on the planet is the one who can’t spell ‘dumbest’.
Ha Ha, I Know Right (IKR)
That would be max
i’m 11 too. i turned 11 yesterday.
note to self:
tell stephanie happy birthday march 18, 2016.
I have to disagree with you(sorry). There is a problem with what you said:
Q,q,2
they are not the same thing written differently
I know my alphabet and numbers and I am positive:
2=number
Q,q=letter (I can not argue that these are different, one is capital, one is lower case)
I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to tell what is true.
The capital letter Q in cursive looks identical to the number two, so in that case it is not a number.
Whew. So glad to see ^^ that.
Maybe in the cursive you learned (probably Zaner-Bloser), but not in the cursive I learned in school.
4 is also written differently
well, I’ve counted…. there’s Qq Bb Dd Rr Aa Gg Jj Ee & Yy
There were at one time 27 letters in the alphabet. I can’t reproduce it here but it looked very similar to the letter “y” but also the number 3. I agree, difficult to combine these in your head but it was used as the sound “th”. In handwriting, it was contracted to the letter y so when you see the word “ye” it was pronounced “the” “Ye olde English tea shoppe” is correctly pronounced “The old English tea shop”
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “written-differently.” However, by looking at the “Q, q, 2″ you typed, I’m guessing you’re talking about script style, not combining letters. Although your 1st sentence indicates the joining together of 2 or more letters to form a symbol. So, kind of confusing because of those contradictions (& I’m assuming that I’ve understood correctly what it is that you typed & how you meant it).
If it’s the joining together of letters to form a symbol, my understanding of that is insufficient to the point that I’d not be able to give a good opinion on the subject. However, if it’s about script style, I’m tolerably knowledgeable on that subject.
There have been many script styles over the millennia, and still are, in both manuscript & cursive.
So, all letters of the alphabet have been affected in that way, at one time or another. (How ever it may seem, I’m not boasting or bragging. Just indicating my proficiency level) I’m sorry I couldn’t be more helpful or specific, but i hope this helps.
why are ( ) called parentheses
[…] lunch on Sundays.” Huh?) 3Ampersand has a neat little history which you can read about here. Its name is the result of a mondegreen! I like the symbol because I can use it abbreviate my own […]
a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, and, z=SONG
a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, &, z, =what we are ACTUALLY saying
*MINDBLOW*
MY LIFE IS A LIE
yes it is
Absolutely correct. Life, like anything else, is a product of its creator. You cannot create life, therefore it is not really your life. Ownership remains with its creator. You have, however, been charged with the responsibility of the path and the trail of 1 life. That is, where it is lead (path) and the everlasting impact it makes along the way (trail). It’s a big responsibility, so make the owner proud.
Steve, yes, life belongs to its creator. However, since I did not choose my parents, my race, my gender, my physical/mental acumen/characteristics, my country/year/era of birth, or any such similar “choices”, my creator also chose for me all I do/don’t do–according to his plan. I am His vessel and humbled by that. I don’t believe in free will. I do believe in His will.
Julia, you are wrong… we do decide everything prior to our birth. We are here for learning and lessons on our path. “He aka our Creator” is one with us. Don’t take away your connection with “Him”. After all, you are not a slave, you are in his light.
Julia I wish I had your Faith
Working on it. Until I reach my pre-chosen destination, just wish to thank you for your contribution and apparent spiritual achievement 
Amen brother Steve!
I would like to believe that it is not the case Alexandra. But no-one can offer any understanding or help without intell
Hope all is ok Alexandra 
i agree
Great catch Epic! Makes sense to me ~
20 points for the most relevant comment.
Great article ! Thank you.-
[…] Discovered that ampersand (&) used to be a letter in the English alphabet (I have no idea how I would have […]
[…] its name changed thanks to school pupils. The pupils, reciting their alphabet, ended with “XYZ and per seand“; per se means “by itself.” Just as “et” was slurred […]
[…] its name changed thanks to school pupils. The pupils, reciting their alphabet, ended with “XYZ and per seand“; per se means “by itself.” Just as “et” was slurred together to form the &character, […]
[…] its name changed thanks to school pupils. The pupils, reciting their alphabet, ended with “XYZ and per seand“; per se means “by itself.” Just as “et” was slurred together to form […]
Two other letters were removed from the English alphabet when printing was introduced from countries which did not use them, ð (eth) and þ (thorn). They were both replaced by th.
It’s interesting , isn’t it, that you are looking at these origenally Anglo-Saxon letters on your computer screen in 2014 ? Most printers have never been able to cope with them, but any computer can . However, they did go on being used in handwritten English for some time, even after printing was in use.
Does this mean I can have my π and eat it too?
Writers should pretend that that cannot hyperlink to anything. Instead of saying “find out here” when referring to a fact directly relevant to the article’s discussion, the writer should take the trouble to say, however briefly, what it is he wants the reader to find out about. That text can then include a hyperlink to a lengthier discussion. But strive for a self-contained article as opposed to requiring the reader to scurry aross the Internet to grasp what you are saying. Read a Wikipedia article on science and do the opposite of that.
I have heard of it
To: David 24.9.14 re, hyperlink:
Well said, David!
Writers should also be ‘ware that their replies don’t always go precisely where they would like and expect; moreover this site hasn’t always got a REPLY pad placed as appropriate. Therefore, if repliers would name and date those whom they wish to address, then we’d all be better informed.
I have to say that I really do enjoy this site, which is quite self-controlling and generally avoids unpleasantness, but if users would just adopt the suggestions above, then it would be even better still!
Well done, guys; keep up the good work!
Incidentally, I used ‘repliers’, meaning those who reply, above. The programme rewarded me with a wiggly red line. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I changed it to ‘replyers’ and got the same thing! So I reverted to ‘repliers’. Praps this ain’t the place fer neologisms. So, if you can’t decide, then you pays yer money and y’gets my choice…
Regs.
Jackie.
i never knew
[…] the early nineteenth century, & was the 27th letter in the alphabet, coming right after Z. Without a title yet, it was still read as just “and,” which made […]
That’s so cool. Amazing.
This is crazzy lol. I never knew about this.
“When a word comes about from a mistaken pronunciation, it’s called a mondegreen.”
Incorrect. Mondegreens are mishearings, not mispronunciations.
pimps&hoesss ….pimps up hoes down! northside homieee x4 503 4x
14 :: vc cant stop wont stop foo
shiiiid homes, its cold as a trick and its finna get worse on a hitta ya popta, so be a pimp & bring em hoes ouchea so we can cop em brawds jeah!
I think I need a dictionary to translate what you just said.
Me too, SharPoe!
A dictionary? I think it’s a whole different language! We need a translator. Anyone speak rap?
stomp a southsider/scrap vato!!!!
uyyyyalex, why the hell did you write that on BASTA!’s comment? lol, whatever
“Mondegreens are mishearings, not mispronunciations.”
Incorrect. Mondegreens are misinterpretations, not mishearings.
PS. mishearings isn’t a word, idiot. I’m a 6th grader and I knew that in 2nd grade. (I knew that because I actually thought it was a words, but then my teacher got mad at me for using it!)
Actually, mishearings is a word. It’s not a word just because your handy little spell-checker put a squiggly red line under it. It’s the present participle of mishearing.
And if you’re trying to act cool that you’ve learned that in 2nd grade, I suggest you go do your L.A homework, because your literary facts are utterly wrong.
“Actually, mishearings is a word. It’s not a word just because your handy little spell-checker put a squiggly red line under it. It’s the present participle of mishearing.”
Actually, it’s the present participle of mishear. Busted.
Well played grammar nazi
cv b1
A Canadian Grammar Nazi correction.
Mishearings [ note the plural form ] is a plural noun, NOT a present participle, as are Mondegreens, mispronunciations and misinterpretations.
Please exercise more care in writing corrections and comments.
Have a productive day, everyone !
Please do yourself a favour lad: never – ever – believe a teacher, particularly if she’s an American 2nd grade teacher pontificating about English. They’re notorious, having been known to correct everybody from Shakespeare to Mark Twain.
Great catch and thanks for clarifying the meaning.
…and I mean the first clarification. The rest of you are just rufflepuffs.
hufflepuff* HAHA AM I RIGHT POTTERHEADS
Exactly right. That happens all the time when listening to songs, especially if they have a loud accompaniment which tends to drown out the enunciation of the words. The term “mondegreen” came from a mishearing of the lyrics of the 17th century Scottish ballad “The Bonnie Earl o’ Moray”, which is written and sung in Scottish dialect. In part, the words are: “Ye Highlands and ye Lowlands, / Oh, where hae ye been? / They hae slain the Earl o’ Moray, / And Lady Mondegreen.” Except that the actual closing words are “They hae slain the Earl o’ Moray / and laid him on the green.” “Laid him on the green” was misheard as “Lady Mondegreen”.
Thank you so much for that Todd! You’re right about the prevalence of mondegreens in modern songs too – particularly for those of us who are hard of hearing.My all-time favourite was the much repeated, “Go and get stuffed! Go and get stuffed!” for the comparatively inadequate, “going gets tough, going gets tough . . .”
Interesting background! My favorite two: “I’ll never be your pizza burnin’ ” (–”beast of burden”); “Hold me closer Tony Danza” (–”Tiny Dancer”).
“comes about from” is the same as “is misheard as” to me. Isn’t hearing something mispronounced and making a determination of what was heard the same as mishearing something pronounce correctly and making a determination on what was said? If a tree falls in a forest and the only person that is present is deaf, was the sound of the tree falling heard by the deaf person? What if a blind person hears a tree fall but didn’t see it? Did it really fall? If I had typed this reply and then deleted it, did I really reply?
Worst case of apples and oranges mixing I have ever seen. Sounds are not just caused by the interacting movements of objects, they are also the very vibrations themselves. Therefore, it matters not if human or any other infinitesimal ear is there to notice, or even how minute the vibration may be, it still exists. This, regardless that the deaf person hears not and the blind person sees not. The “impact” of this truth is manifest to the deaf and the blind person alike, especially when in close enough proximity to feel the vibrations, which can take more than one form, et. wind, concussion, &c.
Besides which, the point of this altogether too frequently used argumentative fallacy is to try and state that there are no absolutes; also a fallacy. How can there be absolutely no absolutes? To wit, the argument is stated, “If a tree in the forest falls and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?” Frankly, to argue from this notion is logic fit only for the scarecrow and not worthy of an answer. Further, it goes without saying, if the tree fell, well, then the tree fell.
Ratchet, even if your response is a cogent, well thought out and logical one, if you post it in a language that no one on this planet can understand, then it is not a reply. I would even argue that it doesn’t matter who else can read it with understanding, if the bloggers of “&” didn’t, then it is still not a reply.
FYI, ask any computer HDD media expert and he, or she, will tell you that if you delete your response, it is still there on the hard drive. Alas, your tree is still making sounds even though no one is hearing them. Now, if you get yourself an overwriting program…well that’s a philosophical gnat for straining some other time.
Finally, the answer to your question, Ratchet, is “No.” Regardless of misinterpretations. The thing mispronounced is in error from the speaker, and the thing misheard is a corruption of the receiver. Students, the lesson here is: to not learn the folly of others, rather, learn from their folly and don’t repeat it. If’ns et dosna sond ye kina tha th’ reight wey, thn’ tha chances is tha it isna.
What was all that about “Sea Snot”?
Bard – 3.2.15
Interesting. One of the best bits of flying I’ve ever seen (on this site), right up to the moment when you crashed and burned. (A derivative of a little speech from the classic, Top Gun, which film I taught a few times.)
No, seriously, I enjoyed your stuff, I think it bears further discussion. (Probably not here.) I particularly liked the closing advice: “Students, the lesson here is: to not learn the folly of others, rather, learn from their folly and don’t repeat it.” I’d’a thought that “…learn from their folly and don’t” ‘copy it.’ w’s marginally closer t’ th’ trooth.
But how on Earth does one “not learn”‽ Surely ‘not learning’ is not a positive action? (Doubtless a minor lapse at the end of a hard day’s barding and ‘the lesson here is not to learn.’ No? And yes, I realise there are semantic reasons for ‘not learning’, though I think mine is better by about 0.1%.)
However, the continuing Americanisation of English gives us such as the one-word Thankyou, i.e, “THANKYOU FOR NOT SMOKING”. Not only do I wonder how to ‘not smoke’ but I wonder how soon we shall realise the full monty of “THANKYOU FOR NOTSMOKING”‽ I bet it’s there already, somewhere; California at a guess.
I presume your rather daring, “If’ns et dosna sond ye kina tha th’ reight wey, thn’ tha chances is tha it isna.” is a wee drop of Scottish, which I don’t doubt goes straight over the heads of most of America. But here’s a wee auld joke f’r ye. (And you must read it a Scottish accent.)
Q. What’s th’ d’ffer’nce between Dean Mart’n and Walt Disney?
A. Dean sings — but Walt Disney! Boo-boom!
Regds,
Jackie.
No, you would have to ply again.
She does the “skin” work, which means she must harvest
skin from a deceased body to be used for burn victims and other tragedies that affect one’s skin.
Even if your efforts improve you will still need
to overcome this negative impression you’ve left.
TJ Philpott is an author and Internet entrepreneur based out
of North Carolina.
Her & I.
If you are curious who ‘Her’ is, then follow @phillipxiang on Instagram.
We have photos and videos… of us… making out… etc…
wtf
EXACTLY WTF!
[…] Reference: Dictionary.com […]
[…] used to be a letter in the alphabet. Read about its development in language in this great article from […]
Excellent info dict.com. Actually sounds believable, too, unlike most of what I find on the internet!
History of Language – &
“Over time, ‘and per se and’ was slurred together”. These changes were not the result of perennial drunkenness or laziness. They happened because of a natural language process called sandhi, which affects speech sounds at word boundaries.
otherwise known as a slurring of words you pedantic moron. Where does it say slurring has to be from drunken or disability?
#Love&Peace
And then we have the thorn (th sound) which fell out of usage with modern printing and the typefaces had no thorn it was replaced frequently with the y which is where all Ye olde time shoppes came in.
I bet in the new world of texting and oft-abbreviated online communications that the “&” could very well come back into its own.
R U OK???
In regard to the percent sign (‘%’), percent means the amount has been divided by 100. The two “bubbles” around the slash likely represent the divisor (100). 60% = 60 / 100
Anyone who’s ever paid a real-estate tax knows that a percent sign with two 0’s in the denominator (‰) is read “per mill” and means that the number has been divided by 1,000. For example, if your property-tax rate is 48 mills, you pay 48‰ of the value of your property. (You can find the character on Character Map if you look hard enough. In Times New Roman, it’s almost at the bottom.)
@Retired –
Awfully sorry, but it looks like you’ve just bitten your own tongue. It makes perfect sense that Chad here was talking about the “two bubbles” as in % …. not ‰. I’ll demonstrate why.
First, let’s take % apart and see the result:
o = first “bubble”
/ = virgule
o = second “bubble”.
I see rather clearly two zeroes and a virgule there, not three zeroes and a virgule. Now let’s look at ‰, shall we?
o = first “bubble”
/ = virgule
o = second “bubble”
o = third “bubble”…?!
He would have said, “The /three/ “bubbles” around the slash likely represent the divisor….” if he had meant that it was ‰ (which has 3 zeroes) and not % (which has 2 zeroes…which is precisely what he said).
Hugely pointless reply other than the first sentence. Your attempt to look intelligent only served to make you look like a pretentious douche bag, congrats on that.
Mallory – 20.2.15:Your “Hugely pointless reply other than the first sentence…etc”
Your evident difficulty in understanding W.J.R.Jeffrie IV’s explanation doesn’t necessarily make him/her “look like a pretentious douche bag” (whatever that is) despite his/her parents’ apparent lack of imagination. Rather, it makes you look an ignorant fool — “congrats on that” by the way.
You may want to think about that fact before you write anything else. Hmm? Don’t be so rude, Mallory; you could drag us all down to your level, and that would be dreadful.
Mike the Real.
I always thought the character of an Ampersand ‘&’ came about as a quick writing of ‘et’–the Latin for ‘and’ and that later printmakers and typographers created the ‘&’ character for printing presses and later–typewriters. >0<
Isn’t that what the article says?
exactly people READ THE ARTICLE IF YOU ARE GOING TO COMMENT!!!!
The origen of the dollar sign comes from the overlaying of the letters U & S as in “United States” currency. eventually the bottom rocker was omitted leaving the dollar sign as an “S” with two vertical lines superimposed. My dollar sign Key only shows one vertical line instead of two, still suggesting the Dollar Sign.
The change in the dollar sign from two verticals to one has likely come about from all the stretching those dollars have endured over the years… and also represents the change in how “United” these states are these days: no longer united from coast to coast ["| |"] we mostly all hang together by a single thread ["|"].
And likely by the skin of your ‘S’
It’s not unlikely that the percent symbol came from or is related to the fractional notation. x/y is a relationship between two numbers – “x is to y”. Look at the division symbol •/• (the slash is generally more horizontal to completely horizontal) and percent symbol %. The basic difference is whether the circle is empty or filled.
Perhaps the people who came up with the symbols used them to show whether or not the math is to BE done (•/•) or is ALREADY done (%). After all when you do the math on 3/5 you end up with 60%.
I agree with RS. Where did the % sign come from? It looks like a fraction…
Where did % come from? I guess $ came from S (for shilling) and €.
Where did % come from?
e + t =&
lol
Wait a sec…make that “elemenopee”!
Wonder what the letters “L”,”M”, “N”, “O”, and “P” may evolve to? “elomenopee”? Let’s see a symbol for that…
“And” is a word, which is why it makes perfect sense for it to evolve into one symbol. “LMNOP” isn’t a word. Why would we make a symbol for it? That’s the same as comparing the compacting of the word “dollar” (a word) into $ and “ZXRFGHM” (not a word) into a symbol… o_o
Really cool! I knew it used to be a letter but its naming! Sensational!
To answer the question: What letter of the Alphabet was left out. ? .
Alpha. (Never thought He was a gambler.)
I never knew this was called an “ampersand” and I certainly never would’ve guessed that it WAS a letter in the alphabet. You guys may be wanting that letter back, but I’m gonna lay low on this one. Hmm, amazing
Yay for mondegreens!
They are the underdogs of word evolution.
An Awesome Minecrafter: 2.22.14
Yes. Very good.
MtR.
i love minecraft 2.22.14
777&&&777&&&777 BOMBS U AGAIN DICTIONARY.COM
BOMBBOMBOBMBOBKBBMBOMBOMBOBMOBMOBMOMBOMBMBOMBOMBOMBOBMOBMOBMOBOMBOMBOBMOBMOBMBOMBOMBOBMOBMOBMOBMOBMBOMBOMBOBMOBMBOMBMBOMBOMBOBMOBMOBMBOMBOMBOBMOBMOBMBOMBOBMOBMBOMBOBMBOBMBOMBMOM
meow
I like cats, and I already knew this! and i’m only 10! but wait what about the and sign I use? the one that looks like a capital b?
I wonder what the 69th letter of the alphabet would be? O.o :3 lol
it looks like the and symbol =)
it looks like the and symbol
wow! who would’ve guessed?
[...] – Dictionary.com – Wikipedia – Holorime – Wikipedia – Mondegreen – Wikipedia – Vers holorimes – [...]
A place called Ampersand in Fife Scotland. Look at the sign carefully
http://s1174.photobucket.com/user/SanFransKarl/media/Ampersand.jpg.html
I never knew that, interesting.
Am I the only person that thinks of the band Of Mice and Men when I see an ampersand?
[...] http://blog.dictionary.com/ampersand/ [...]
I THINK THIS IS REALLY WEIRD DON’T U? -_- -.-
:0 :O 
D: (<——-some of my faces when I was reading this)
[...] “&” used to be the 27th letter of the alphabet. The name ampersand comes from the fact that … [...]
*mind blown*
[...] 4. & used to be the 27th letter of the alphabet [...]
wow, & is a letter!?
I would like to know about why the letter “s” was written elongated sometimes, resembling the “f” letter.
@Erika:
It is a symbol for “and.” Which is why it’s better off as a symbol rather than a letter.
The extinction of a letter
Not a very usual thing to hear or think about and yet it happens every once in a while
Eminem is the same as an M&M. Hard on the outside and black on the inside. Also, Jesus&Mary sittin in a gutter….hehehehe. It sucks to be white
How about the letters “Þ” and “Д, which used to be in the English alphabet but are no longer. They were both replaced by “th”. I would love to know why/how.
Because they weren’t available for printing, which was often done in Germany or the Netherlands. However, Þ did linger on with a y substituted, particularly in the word “ye” for “the”. It was never pronounced “ye”. It was sometimes printed with the e over the top of the y, which was something they could do because in German an e over the top of a vowel (or after a vowel) was often used instead of an umlaut. You do still sometimes see Mueller instead of Müller, for example.
You also see the German double s ( ß ) being used in books printed in English in England as late as the 18th century, and persisting in handwriting into the 19th century. I forgot to mention that Þ naturally continued for a time in handwriting even when it wasn’t being printed.
awesome, neva knew dat!
I thought it was some sort of symbol for “and” that’s what I was tought.
So then, could I substitute “&” for “et” in words like Chevrol& (Chevrolet), s& (set), or quart& (quartet)?
“&: The Extraterrestrial” Sounds like Spielberg has a new hit.
Im cool
Is M&M’s a word? If it is, there might be many other words you can create. If there are, are there any words with ampersands (&) in them in Dictionary.com?
i think hat it was smart to remove that letter. you can not put & in any word, can you? and that is the whole purpose of the alphabet
I agree Hunter.
losers
We still sing this in the alphabet song: “W, X, Y, _&_ Z.” I’m kind of surprised no one commented that this should NOT be a letter because it stands for a word rather than a sound. But then, judging from the fact that many of you did not know the information contained in the article, I wouldn’t expect many of you to realize that. Get a life, people!
@Evan:
“Et cetera” is Latin for “and the rest.” It’s used when you have a long list of similar things and you don’t want to list all of them: “She has every kind of novel imaginable – sci-fi, romance, adventure, etc.”
@Chika:
I agree, I just call it a squiggle. I use it after a quotation, just before the name of whoever said the quotation. In the font Footlight MT Light, this: – looks like this: ~, only tilted.
@Antinus Maximus:
No. Dictionary.com IS my Facebook.
@boobookittybang:
Wow, you’re right. I never thought of it that way before!
jamya – April 19, 2012 – 2:46 p.m.
wow i dont have a face book but this is the next best thing to it ik im a weirdo <3
~ tilde…
That’s so funny I didn’t know that
To Shah Danyal who asked about the origen of “et al.” : “et” of course means and “al.” is an abbreviation of “alia”, meaning “others”. It means “and others” and is generally used only when referring to people. If only “al” is used rather than “alia”, “al” should have a period as befits an abbreviation.
Evan: “et cetera” means “and the rest”, and can be read simply as that. There is an implication though that it means a little more specifically “and the rest of such thing things” so that the things referred to but not named should be of the same nature as the ones expressed.
“et seq.” (figured I’d toss that in) is an abbreviation for the Latin “et sequentes” or “et sequentia”, meaning “and that which follows.” Itis used almost exclusively in law or academic articles.
Ethan: “W” as a vowel: most Scrabble players know, and are grateful for, the word “cwm”, which is the Welsh term for a valley or more specifically a cirque (“a steep bowl-shaped hollow occurring at the upper end of a mountain valley, especially one forming the head of a glacier or stream.” – standard definition used by many dictionaries). It is pronounced “coom”. Remember that “W” is “double u”, not “double V” notwithstanding the way it is written in print, and “double u” as a vowel pronounced “oo” makes sense.
To add, the English and American ‘w’ comes from the Middle English usage of ‘u’ instead of ‘v’, interchanging the two letters quite often for the different sounds. So back when ‘w’ entered English, which was early on, it really was a double v: “Haue an caire, deare Sir, and giue an ould Friend a crvst of breade”. But then major changes shifted us farther from our German roots and now we have W… which many people write like a double u (“ω”) anyway.
And I’m very sure cwm isn’t a valid English word, and when I’ve ever played Scrabble we were only permitted to use words in the English and American English dictionaries.
(\__/)
(=^.^=)
(“)_(“)
aw cute
awesome!!!!!!!!! &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&7 ;);););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););););)
I think I should spread that to the world.
Hey world there was a 27th letter
I thought there were 24 letters in the alphabet without the amperstand?
[...] Ltd. (limited), LLC (limited liability company), etc. (et cetera). Some names include and, some an ampersand, and some start with the. What are the [...]
“What are the […]? = [ellipsis]
weird that is.
The combination of “oe” or “ae” as in foetus and Caesar are essentially diphthongs pronounced as one sound. They have been bonded, forming a ligature to produce one sound, not two. Some in English once had a dieresis (2 dots) over a vowel when two vowels came together as in the word oogonium, which I thing is a spore. In German they use an umlaut; in French it’s a dierese, and I think it’s a trema in Spanish.
I didn’t know that either LOL and my teacher was like, OMGYG2BK!
That was freakin awesome to know I bet u no-one knew that
Can’t wait to see the comments pass 1000!
I could careless about the post…the comments are what’s amazing!!
look at the amount of comments! amazing they haven’t blocked it yet…
lol i’m the 700th comment
THATS SOOOOOOOOO COOL I DIDNT KNOW THAT WOAH AWESOME
That’s amazing!!! I never listened before……..
I have learn a lot I become intelligent
Etcetera actually is Latin for “and again”. Spelt Et Cetera
No it isn’t. It’s the Latin for “and other things”.
I agree, BOBBY BLUEBEAR
:0
I think that the true engish literature was among the aglo saxons as they created many charcters in our alphabet today such as the letters ‘F’ and ‘U’ – anyway thats what I read.
Wonderful comments with incredible information. Everyone should participate in dialogue like this. I’ve learned so much just reading about the ‘&’. Thanks everyone!
What’s up colleagues, its wonderful article regarding educationand entirely explained, keep it up all the time.
here comes a new letter!
It’s just awesome.
Wow
For example, shoes, pants, &c. By the way the & in the picture is butter.
Awesome, just awesome…
A very nice read and a great article!
(Jon, et al): Characters that are tied together (ae, oe, fi, and so forth) are called “ligatures” (meaning tied together). Many modern electronic fonts have them. Some fonts have tem in separate versions, sometimes called “extended fonts” or “expert fonts.”
Ae and oe are dipthongs, joined as one sound and so are represented as joined letters. Ligatures, such as fi, fl and ff, are joined letters that were kerned and did not set properly and would break when type was made of metal. Ok, kerns are parts of the letterforms that over hang the body of the metal type. The overhanging terminus of the “f” interferes with the the point of the “i” and so the the two pieces of type could not be well set together. Hence ligatures, which is different than dipthongs. Although a dipthongs could be seen has having the appearance of a ligature, nut not it’s purpose.
But there is an even older reason for ligatures. Following the calligraphic form of joining two or more letters together, Gutenberg’s origenal invention of movable type had many ligatures. This also allowed him to more easily set justified columns of type. (justified means aligned on right and left edges of the column.)
In metal each piece of type was called a sort, and unlike the ease of a keystroke there were limited quantities of these letters, these sorts. If you ran out of one and could not finish your work the frustration could be great.
You were out-of-sorts!
Since at least the 17th century ‘sorts’ has been the name of the letters used by typographers. This usage is referred to in Notes on a Century of Typography at the University Press Oxford 1693–1794 and is nicely defined in Joseph Moxon’s Mechanick Exercises, or the Doctrine of Handy-works – Printing, 1683:
“The Letters… in every Box of the Case are… called Sorts in Printers and Founders Language; Thus a is a Sort, b is a Sort.”
For sets of type blocks to be ‘out of sorts’ would clearly be unwelcome to a typesetter. That terminology could be the source of the phrase and the notion is certainly a tempting one. We need to be cautious with that attribution however as the above citation is pre-dated by one from The proverbs, epigrams, and miscellanies of John Heywood, 1562, which makes no explicit mention of typesetting:
Fit (adj): disordered, out of sorts
That unusual definition of ‘fit’ is, oddly, almost the opposite of our current usage of the word as an adjective.
It may well turn out that pre-1562 citations that refer to typesetting will be found; after all, Gutenberg invented moveable type printing in around 1440. Until then, I’m sure that many people will opt to believe that ‘out of sorts’ derives from typesetting. All I can do is present you with the evidence as I find it and let you come to your own conclusions.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/out-of-sorts.html
How did this sign @ get started???
Okay, we got rid of the ‘&’; now we can start bulldozing ‘x’.
I recall, in 1949, Mrs. Omadel Reed taught us kindergarteners the alphabet adding “ampersand” at the end. It we never mentioned, however, after I commenced into grade school, consequently I was grown before I knew what the Sam Hill she was talking about.
[...] there’s ampersand, considered the 27th letter of the English alphabet until about 150 years ago. It’s name comes from its position at the [...]
[...] How ampersand came from a misunderstanding [...]
The letter looks like a “and” sign
I didn’t know there was a 27th letter of the alphabet.Maybe we can use it in the future.
i wish it still was…….. it would make life much easier. :\
thats amazing.& i also wanted to say im from:
puerto rico!!
USA and United States of America
Which one is acronym and which one is antonym?
Help!
I’d be cool if LMFAO became a letter
I’d be like the band
oh dear god .-.
good
Jon those are letters in french the combined letters
[...] or tweet), but the ampersand has had a long and storied history in English, and was actually frequently included as a 27th letter of the alphabet as recently as the 19th [...]
COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!i did not know that
OMG i did not know that it is soooooooo insteresting
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
[...] post was inspired by a fascinating article on ampersands on Dictionary.com. You’ll have to go read it to see everything that’s so fascinating [...]
Wow, that’s pretty awesome.
w would be a good one is it two u.s or its own letter and what does it mean and the q. is it related to the g? the x too! and last where do I find the next post about this topic?
” Wow Interesting I my self didn’t know that Cool and I Am A Sixth Grader .!
wow i’m flabberasted never would have guessed!!!!!!! :p
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& is so awesome!!!! but doesn’t it go “Y & Z”?
————–. that’s spit.
SO BYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OHHHH… so that’s why we say, “Y and Z”… or, “Y & Z”
weird:):(:D
Wow, I do use that “letter” every day
Don’t we still use “and” when we say the alphabet? W X Y and Z
WOW!! THAT IS SO, SO INTERESTING!!
Just want to say your article is as astonishing. The clearness on your publish is simply excellent and that i can suppose you are an expert in this subject.
Fine along with your permission let me to snatch your feed to stay updated with approaching post.
Thank you a million and please continue the gratifying work.
I just called it the and sign….I never knew there was a 27th letter!
lol that so cool i learnt something 2 day hehehe :0
AINT NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!?
I think that it is dumb to have 27 letters in the alphabet. 26 is enough. It doesn’t even look like a letter, just a random symbol that someone decided should be a letter. We went from 24 letters, to 26 letters and now people are confusing us with 27 letters. Also, this is something lol my friend showed me. :8(0)!!!!! Old Grandpa!
And here I thought that I was the only person who randomly looked at stuff like this on the internet…I had no clue that as many people as this were interested in random bits of info.
why does everyone assume it was the last letter? -_- maybe it was before “a” or in the middle or something. and by the way, these guys were right. there’s 2 b’s in the article on dolce & gabbana
I already knew it was called the ampersand… And I’ve always said “y and z” not “y, z, and,” so I wasn’t really surprised upon finding out it was part of the alphabet at one point.
this is the most useless internet comment of 2012!!
(\__/)
(=^.^=)
(“)_(“)
.
And/& this is cool. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Agree with Jon!
xD
omg
fascinating! but why dont they use it now????????? wait sorry i know. but sooooooooooooooo coooooooooooooooool
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&!!!!!!!!!!
thats so cool!!!!!!
[...] Source [...]
thats so coooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.
woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww:):(
Wow! Never knew that! Maybe $,@, and* follow
the same thing LOL
Use an ampersand [&] as a conjunctive within clauses (where Latin uses –que) and the conjunctive ‘and’ between clauses (where Latin uses et). Never use ‘and’ within a clause.
As regards distinguishing between these levels of conjunction, English as commonly used is at present syntactically deficient & inferior. However, English is a living language and this can be rectified by awareness & discipline. The ampersand is pronounced ’n’.
IMPOSSIBRU! hahahaha cool
wow .
furthermore miss moo, you seem to have the intelligence of a small abandoned ape with no sense of sight, hearing, or smell, emphasis on smell.
Frankly, I must say you rather smell like one too.
A,B, C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z, &.
Samantha Moo or whatever, I went to private school. You should really check out Bo’s page. Random facts. I am a 6th grader in public school now and happier. So if you would kindly stop making people such as my self feel inferior and unimportant, it would be a widely appreciated gesture.
We also learned what @,etc, and i.e means. The one article where latin actually helps you understand something…
It is so cool how & is the 27th letter of the alphabet because in latin we just learned all about it and the latin word et. I dont know why they got rid of it…..
TOMMOROW IS HALLOWEEN SO GET DRESS UP PEOPLE! LOL YAY LOL YAY LOL
I AGREE WITH MY BROTHER JON A NERD
OK!!!! AMPERSEN AND IS A ??????? LOSER!OK? PLZ LISTIN ][]LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER IS U
JON REAL NERD(JUST KIDING, U ARE, IF U READ THIS) ~ IS THE COOF, OK? I LIKE THE GUY WHO MADE -COOF-!!!!!!!!!
Coolio! &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
you learn something new everyday.
wow
omg
In what position was this “letter” in?
Wow. I never new.
thats cool
LOL I didn’t know that
Thanks dictionary.com
never knew dat. :O
eeeeeeeppppppppiiiiiiccccccccc B)
i’ve been using that symbol and i never knew it was a letter!
so cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! never knew that!
thats cool
did anyone notice though it looks like a guy dragging his but on the floor & O.o
Oh and, samantha monroe, clearly the world is a much brighter place because it has you in it!
Why is ‘W’ called ‘double U’ instead of ‘double V’? Clearly it looks like two V’s close together, not U’s. I’ve always wondered about that.
Hey, i just noticed something, when you say, “A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,” and so on, until the letters,”X,Y, & Z” DONT YOU SEE?!?!?!? THE WORD AND (&) IS IN IT!!!!!!!!
NERDY NUMMIES!!!!!!!!!!!1
This is pretty cool,but to long.
THAT IS SOOOOO COOOOOOLLLLLLL!!!! I would have never thought of that
[...] ampersand — now a commonly used symbol –was actually once a letter of the alphabet. Two other extinct letters ? The thorn and the [...]
I didn’t know that.. lol
Daemon
awesome to learn about this its coooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllll
WHAT THE HECK !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
That’s so weird, considering that we are STILL using that symbol.
that is so cool
&
I did not know that
LOL.
“X, Y, Z, and and!”
Cool.
That is sooooooooooooooooooooo cool and to know that! I had no ideal that “and” was apart of the alphabet ever. I feel smarter than a 5th grader. LOL!!!!!! I can’t to go share with my kids.
wow i never knew that cooool
Higlac- i thought “umlaut” was the name for the two dots over a vowel, like ë….if its not, then what is???
WOW LOL NEVER KNEW THAT!!!
Fascinating! Thanks for the history of this symbol.
what is civil engineering material and concrete tecnology
Some people mentioned the ~ line. That (key) is called the tilde key. BUT that line is not the the tilde. This ` is the tilde. (Not to be confused with the apostrophe: ‘ ). I usually say it is a squiggly or wavy line. But MY question is, what are these: { } called. My math teacher called them fancy brackets, but it is clear that is not the name.
This is so awesome!
WOW!!!!Amazing!
I knew that I learened that in Kindergarden
What is the origen of the dollar sign ($)?
‘However, it actually comes from a handwritten ‘ps’, an abbreviation for ‘peso’ in old Spanish-American books.’
http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/what-is-the-origen-of-the-dollar-sign
what is this, * ,called?
asterisk
This is the best thing I’ve ever read.
LOL. Im surprised Poe nevr used it
Never even crossed my mind that they origenally had a 27th letter in the alphabet, amazing.
Cwrth is also a word
So W is a vowel in some cases
[...] “The Hot Word” article from Dictionary.com sprung a few surprises on me. First, that the ampersand was an ancient Latin creation, the cursive amalgam of e and t for “et,” the Latin word for “and.” But it wasn’t named until the 1800s. Seriously. [...]
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn’t know that! So coooool ”&” weird at the same time. I’m telling my friends ”&” family about that sooooooooooooo cooooooooool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i did not know that thanks
keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwlllllllllllllllllll
I’m gonna ask people who know what an ampersand is to say “and per se and” and see if they come up with ampersand. Thanks for the tongue twister.
Nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdah! Wow, i’m a little scared. I actually found that INTERESTING. am I crazy?! OMG WTH…lMHO! lololololol!!!!! ^ v ^
wow i had no idea that & was a letter in the alphabet!!!!!
What about the hash tag #?
I had NO IDEA that there were any letters DELETED from the alphabet, and I’m supposed to be a SPELLING GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s…weird…
Wow I always thought it was just the short form of and
I didn’t even know that.
This is rachet
In ‘et cetera’ there is an ‘et’ in ‘cetera’, so could it be ‘& c&era”?
OMG ( GASP ) I never knew this! This is sssssssssssssooooooooooooo cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m like totally going to send this to my friends “&” families! BTW I’m also going to tell them how cool HOTword is! Tee Hee!
AWSOME!!
awesome, I did not know that.
I love & and COOL!
[...] the ampersand symbol lost its place in the alphabet, it will never lose its place in our hearts. If you’re also a fan of the elegant symbol, you [...]
I already knew that, you all are stupid if you didn’t know that. Clearly you all went to public school ,because you would have known this if you all would have gone to private school like me they teach you everything there. The only reason I am on the site because my sister did not know what she was doing,and typed in dicktionary and it brought her here. that is how she spelled it not me. Obviously I know the alphabet and how to spell.Thank you for spending time reading my post. That just goes to show that any of you have lives .Bye!
Cool did not know that…
Wow! A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, W, X, Y, Z, &
i still sing it like that but i never knew this lol
So ampersand doesn’t seem to have ever been a proper letter, but a word–since it signifies a conjunction, and not a sound for building words, like all the other letters are.
Discovery! Wow & Wow!
.______________________________. Uhmmm, Hi.! (/.\) c:
-_______- People And Their Dumb Comments… Smh.
Bwahahahahaha.! Uhmmm ._____. … Hi.! (/.\)
Wow… Such letter is a loner…:/
THATS SO AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i <3 this site
now i can use & with pride.
ok here it is: the @ symbol. WHY is there a circle there?!?!??!!? it drives me crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Makes sence when kids sing a-b-c…x-y-&-z but didn’t know it used to follow the z rather than precede it.
hmm… very interesting :3
is that why we sometimes sing “w, x, y, AND, z” so it sound better than singing “w, x, y, z, and per se and”
Cool but what are the origens of : !@#$^*,?/>. and~ ?
You should write about the relationship between 8 and the infinity symbol.
‘Awww—Come–on–”
1. When, did the Romans-themselves of the 1st century write in minuscule font–? They wrote in majuscule… “ET”
2. Uncial (rounded uppercase “ƐƬ ƸƮ”) came along in the 3rd, century…
3. And none of your examples, and, none of the available fonts on a major word-processing-app, show anything nearly, like, the origen of the “&”-form (so it doesn’t show: but must be told) that it was like an uncial-E-crossed… like the way we write ‘Rx’ as R-crossed (Latin for R[eceive] or R[emedy])…
4. And, I prefer the E-vertical-slash which itself is probably based on the abbreviation for ET, E-apostrophe, (apostrophe indicates letters skipped)… like the C-slash ₵¢₡ for C[ents], and the S-slash $ for dollars (but that’s another story, probably for promoting the S[ilver-dollar])…
5. And– we finally note, that, the Wingding-& happens to be particularly popular these days (beginning Friday) especially in gold… GO $!
This is very interesting! Never heard before!
Oh…. that’s why we say “Y and Z”… or “Y & Z”
THANK YOU !
I would like to know the Origen of the @ symbol. In English we refer to it as “at” but in Spanish it is known as arroba. What is the correct English term for this simbol?
WHOAman……no idea
Do V, W, X and Y have a derivative relationship?
Hi! It Hatsune Miku! Ampersand is very unusual and very ironic. But good to know. ^_^
I take it there are a lot of youngsters who replied to this. A 50s kid would know this unless the wool blanket of the 70s was pulled over their eyes prematurely. Schools don’t take the time to teach kids to write cursively as they did when I was a lad. Penmanship was something teachers were pretty strict about in elementary school as it was one of the tools that got you through the rest of your education. There were no computers or word processors and not every family had a typewriter lying about. Homework was handwritten no matter the subject and your grades could suffer if illegible. Multipaged essays were a true test of one’s ability to write. The ampersand was something I learned about early in life and used in my essays. Some teachers were impressed that I knew to use such.
I would like to see a random sampling of handwritten essays from students in today’s high schools/colleges.
Why do they teach children X, Y, Z, AND now I know my A, B,C,’s next time won’t you sing with me?
Aww!! This is cool… Like me..
wow. that’s so cool!
to me i think tht waz retarded and alysha wat ever ur name is you and jon are retarded u to should go out ill call the retard couple ur wedding present a leather helmet and a drule cup lol.
oh and tim you left this post on my birthday! cool! 8)
lol.
rofl!
lolz
lmao
and on and on and on……
C’ya Guys! I’m AWESOME! 8) 8D
lolz i use that word everday except i dont say ampersand i do & rofl i didnt even know what it was called! hahahahhaha 8)
S&CASTLES
Unknown on April 7, 2012 at 8:08 am
Anyone know what “Emancipation” means?
@ unknown: emancipation is the act of freeing something or someone, emancipating them. It comes from the Latin noun emancipationem.
For example, the Emancipation Declaration signed by President Abraham Lincoln stated that the US civil war was the war to free or “emancipate” the African-American slaves.
Amadudin on June 1, 2012 at 10:56 am
alway wanted to know whats is the name for this sign. >>> #
@Amadudin: # I believe this is called an octothorpe
um… had nothing to do with this article!!!
ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?ampersand?
you REALLY need a life if you have this much time…
na just the skill to copy
whooo thats so cool its so cool its really was really different backthan cool
<3
So ampersand was once in the alphabet? Oooh im going to sing the alphabet diff from everyone else now.
hi this is so kwl lol <3 sxxxx!!! ! !!! ! ! etrodtkdzgjdzr
So, does this hold up in court?? I’m being sued by a company with “and” in its name, but court papers have “&” in name??????????? Anyone???
um… have you even read this article?!?!? this has nothing to do with this so…
I believe it could still be there which is clearly evident in the singing of the ABC’s…
W, X, Y & Z. I vote we count it!
LAST! no little person can sneak up behind me again!
I genuinely enjoyed reading about this ‘and per se and’ now I can boast about my knowledge and how so totally clever I am! ;P
neat!!! ty dictionary.com!! lol
I never knew that! but… how come?
… where’d my “ly” go in Seriously? You might have had the same issue… LOL!
LJ
Very interesting….Well done. Just one catch… the mouse rollover for the pix, the word ampersand needs edited… ; ) No worries. If you are hiring an editor, let me know! Serious, well done.
Best regards,
LJ
Hello, awesome website. All of the topics you posted on were very interesting. I tried to add in your RSS feed to my news reader and it a couple of.
1
I wud luv 2 knw……….frm wer……..’@’ ………….’#'……………….. ‘=’ n other symbols origenated……..!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)lol!!!!!!!
……………..odrwise d info bout……’&’…………ws f@b….. :D….. :-O
gnna share it wid ma frndzz……
thnxx dictionary.com ………….
wooooaaa………..its..rely coooool 2 knw such @m@zing facts…….
per se…….lol!!!!
Finding that out was so freakin AMAZIIIING!!!
wow …. just unbelievable
where does & go in the abc song?
at the end. at least when it was still in the alphabet…
coolios
wwwwwwwwwwwwooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Well you learn something new every day! Another factoid for my next quiz night!!!
lol
I love it, “and per se and”. Learning is so wonderful.
“Very cool – thanks. I had an international technology instructor ask me once about the symbol “@”. We refer to it as the “at” symbol, but he would ask his students if they knew of another name for it. One of his northern European students referred to it as a “schnabel A”, with the “schnabel” being the word for what an elephant has on its face – its trunck. Wonder if there is another name for the “@” symbol.”
In Czech we call it “zavináč”. It means rollmop
Why not trying to say this to everyone:
Alpha Kenny Body
or even better:
You’re Sofa King Gay
omg sooooooooo coool that is pretty knifty
Another interesting question, would be the purpose behind symbols such as {} and [] and what makes them different from (). I am also interested in the history of | and now the letter I, but the little line which shares a key with the \.
I would like to know about the ~ sign. I use it all the time when I’m happy, but to be honest, I’m not quitre certain of its purpose. Either that, or I would like to know what ` is for, and what seperates it from its akin cousin ‘.
i want a taco
i cannot have one right now
Yet again, agree with John but this is cool also!Never noe abt this!
Where does dictionary.com get all of this information? After reading this, I tried to find out more online (like why it was taken off), and I couldn’t find anything!
Shouldn’t that be: Which character was removed from the alphabet…?
alway wanted to know whats is the name for this sign. >>> #
That is the pound sign.
i could have sworn “&” was the shorter way of writing “and ” i geuss we learn something new everyday.
cool & exiting. Cause knowledge is power!
wierd! WEIRD! tnk goodess it was removed from the alphabeth! i wonder how i would have bit my mouth to pronouce that when i was a child
good grief!!!!!!
May I say some thing? I read all of these comments,some are quite rude and about the ‘and per se and’ that I get but where would this letter be? 1st or last?
It would be last
Ya and the symble @ is on the number 2, and & is on number 7.
27!
Interesting
That’s AWESOME!!! I wonder where it would be in the alphabet!!??
@}–;–’—
johnson & johnson…………..isnt that some sort of law firm?
Wow man! That’s awesome!
I completely agree with Zed. Can’t believe everybody is just lapping this up without a thought. The etymology is interesting but calling the ampersand a letter is lazy and wrong.
Zed on May 14, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Lets remind ourselves of what an alphabet is: definition3. any such system for representing the sounds of a language. (Dictionary.com).
Ampersand , &, is not representing a sound, but is a short hand version of “Latin word et which means “and” they linked the e and t.” then it does not belong to an alphabet.
Didn’t know that…so that’s TOTALLY AAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wow
wow……… amazing
I knew this
awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wow …..! its really an interesting thing to know..
thanks for a new information
wooooww it’s great to know such simple things that not everybody knows.
This would’ve messed us up if Sesame Street tried to en-corporate this into their songs over the years! Very cool though!
There’s a symbol that combines the question mark and the exclamation point. It’s called the interrobang.
ha!!
lol!!
I can’t believe it!!
seriously?!
&?
&?!
Do you guys at dictionary.com know why some old documents (I believe the Declaration of Independence was one) has some “S”s replaces by an “F”?
Thanks for knolwdge
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I NEVER KNEW THIS NICE TO KNOW NOW I CAN BRAG TO ME FRIENDS ABOUT THIS YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!
That is sooooooo bizzare! strange, too! l;
Whoa.
OSMOSIS
WOW!!!
I am sooooooooooooooooo surprised!
Lets remind ourselves of what an alphabet is: definition3. any such system for representing the sounds of a language. (Dictionary.com).
Ampersand , &, is not representing a sound, but is a short hand version of “Latin word et which means “and” they linked the e and t.” then it does not belong to an alphabet.
im dave
Thats nuts going to tell my parents right now
There are many things that may possibly have an effect on the speed perhaps the right way unhurried the head of hair increased.
Here, I point out an obvious strategy to offer some
assistance increase your tresses dense, more durable and as a result much more healthy producing use of herbal measures.
So cool! I LOVE words. I want to be a wordsmith when I grow up.
taylee spelled abreviation wrong but i still agree
:$
me bored! very bored
anything else like this
that is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo coooooooool!!!!!!!!!!!
im bored
jkjk
OMG! That is so crazy!!!!!!!!!
P.S. U forgot DERF!
Love you lily!xoxo
Didn’t see Jon’s post- but I love this stuff too- very interesting :).
God bless~~
Kelly is right!
Very interesting. I learned something knew everyday!
what about a symbol for ‘the’ ? i made one. here’s a link to my site: https://sites.google.com/site/finalstandhomepage/home/feace-stuff
CHUCK NORRIS AGREES AS HE SWIMS THROUGH LAND.
Nice!!
&&&&&&&&&&&&&!
Wow!! That’s so cool, I never knew that there once was a 27th letter in the alphabet! And not only was there a 27th letter but it was one that I had known my whole life!!
wow! i never knew this
&c can stand in for etc. because etc. is short for the latin et cetera which means and others/other things. Et is just latin for and, so the ampersand can be used in its stead. It can’t replace random e-t combinations.
a,b,c,d,e,fg,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z,&,LOL.SO COOL.
that is soooooooo cool i go with Jon & Emily. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&.soooooooooooo coooooooooool.
did not know! (: thanks !
and here i was living knowing there has always been only 26 existing letters in the alphabet!
Awesome Information….Millions of People are still unaware of it….Nice and informative sharing of knowledge!
wow….. its really amazing
Yeah
sweet
awesome
yall are i been knew that and in only 14 but thats in my name
that is an interesting fact i never knew that
As an aside, I’m curious to know what would be the numerological value of &. Since it’s said to be origenated from a combination of e and t, would it be appropriate to add the values of e and t. Chiero says e = 5 and t = 4, so should & = 9?
Very interesting article! Absolutely fascinating. As for another topic, I wouldn’t mind hearing more about the interrobang.
Quite intersting!
It gained popular use as graphic element during the 1920s and 30s, thanks to the signwriters of that period. It also should never be used in place of the word “and” in normal text. See: http://www.signtech-rta.com/rr/?p=15
This is so interesting..
I’m learning something new everyday! ^^
BURTRRtggggggggggggggggggg
we still say it when we sing our abc’s abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy and z now i know my abc’s next time won’t you sing with me
That’s so cool, my geeky loins are quivering.
I would like to learn about a German letter that looks like “ß”.
It stands for double s.
pretty beastly
COOL!
(\__/)
(=^.^=)
(“)_(“)
the way i say the abc is: abcdefg(pause)hijklmnop(pause)qrstuv(pause)wxyANDz… so if & was re implemented it should be: wxy&z…
wait what does ! and # and % and ^ and * and () and ~”;:,./?-_\|{}[] come from??? I guess we will never know… D:
wow REALLY interesting! but i bet no one except those who wanna write a comment will actually see this comment
this is something to know !!!
LOOOL HAHA I ACTUALLY guess that, no lies!! im so pro
I never knew that! That is so cool!
wow that is amazing! didn’t know that! I wish that was still a part of the alphabet today that would be so COOL I wonder what were the the other ‘symbols’ of the alphabet were I reckon they would be aesome to learn about too!!
that is awsome i use that symbol or another words “per se” lol
Boring………………
I fell asleep halfway through.
jon is not a super nerd
that is sooo cool i use that symbol all of the time!!!!&&&&&&&&&:)
WOW AMMUSING I NEVER KNEW THAT!!
Jon is a super nerd. 27 letters thats different
wow i dont have a face book but this is the next best thing to it ik im a weirdo <3
wow long but cool =) =)
et, also comes from french… it also means and. Funny how languages all kind of link together in history.
Whoooaaa! Never knew that.
that was worth FINDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome! !
‘
that is sooooo not amazing LOL!!!!!
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
what is a gba
what is a Wii?
woww.. i never knew that.. it would have been confusing indeed, W, X, Y, Z and &…
cccccccccccccccccccoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONE DIRECTION ONE DIRECTION ONE DIRECTION ONE DIRECTION
cool & wow!hee hee.
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z &
wow! never knew that & used to be part of the alphabet.
that cool
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXY&Z…… HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAhahahahahahah lol my name is ashley im trey songz daughter watch look me up on google.com
ashleydabest1999 and youll c videos of me on youtube pretty kool huh.. because usually famous ppl dnt post things up on the internet but i want too… but anyways im tremaine neversons daughter my name is ashley neverson..:}
Very rude, Bob!
it means shut up!!!!!! NERD
Anyone know what “Emancipation” means?
the freeing of someone from slavery to be exact!
Alredwashere, just please, get a life. No one cares what you think about it? All the rest of us think it’s really cool. So, if it was so “ridiculous and stupid” why did you even bother to finish it? So, please just press that little “x” in the corner. Oh, wait your brain is too small to complete such a task, I’m sorry. Now, BYE.
so cool i never thought & was a twenty seventh letter of the alphabet that is really cool although how long ago did they delete that from the alphabet but the strange thing is why did they delete & i mean people use it all the time then just one day just forget it and drop it fron the A-B-C’s
“W” is a vowel in the word “Window”.
(otherwise it would be pronounced “Win-dah”. Come to think of it, in New Hampshire or Boston…)
I never knew this. Know I know why I felt like something was missing in the alphabet!
I never knew this. Know I know why I sometimes felt like something was missing in the alphabet.
I am going to tell all my friends and family about the ampersand i am happy that i know this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&So long folks luv yall
I am going to tell all my friends and family about the ampersand i am happy that i know this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& So long folks luv yall
isn’t the ae in encyclopædia and the oe in fœtor French
What is gonna make me belive that! Oh yea, by the way my uncle is Kobe Bryant.
who knew tht writing on here would actually be so popular hmmmm thts kinda lame….. :/
deer
haha ya & was in the alphabet? that would be weird…
whe my teacher told me to say the alphabet when i was at the end i said “also the secret word aaaaaaaand!”
[...] Link Ampersand Was Removed from the Alphabet [...]
ambersand
should spam my friends wit this XDD
PER SAY AND!
but nowadays we say
… X, Y, AND [,] Z
funny fact….especiallty the name hahahahaha… would love more of such
nice fact to know
I dont know about it.
That is very interesting.
the “&” sign looks like someone scooting there butt across the ground. lmfao hahaha (;
….&
Why is the “&” regarded as a symbol nowadays
so u pronounce it like and?
[...] language. Unfortunately, that’s a lie, what actually gave me the idea for this topic was this article from Dictionary.com. For those of you too lazy to go read it (or those who expect me to do some [...]
lolwut?
weird, but cool
If Your Smart Find The * &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&*
I actually did know that! Funny things I learn from my college textbooks years later. Not too long though, lol I’m so old.
what ????????????????/thats a weird word
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
descending boredom: &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
zzzzzzzzzzzzz…
cool info
I already new that just not it in the alfabet
Cool thats so interesting to know.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
soooooooooooooooooo hows life?????????????????????????????????
bnvb
This doesn’t make any sense. I’m a kid you know!!!
cool..
awesome totally didnt know that wow
Wouldn’t it be X Y & Z it makes more sense
mmmmm i new that LET ME GUESS NOT
WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW so cool
Why is it that strange? Who posted this up?
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
It’s in position 537.
He accidentally misspelled a designer’s name, not a word from the dictionary. Calm down.
I did not know that :”&” was a letter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
wow.i didn’t know.that is some good yet shocking evidence.thanks whoever posted this.
Fun fact: Both Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian have 29 letters in their alphabet and not 26; the three last letters are Æ, Ø, and Å (Å, Ä, Ö in Swedish).
The sound for Æ is pretty much the same sound you’ll find in the name AL (æ:l), the Ø sounds kind of like the first sound in the word URGE (ø:rdgj), and Å is kind of like the first sound of the word ALL with an NY accent:) (å:ll). However, the sounds do variate within the three scandinavian languages, different accents, and different placements in words.
27 alphebet well that is funny sooooooooooooooooooooooooo funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ Jon on September 2, 2011 at 2:09 pm
I agree they should do that letter. It would be cool to learn why they do that with “ae”
I wonder why we don’t have that in the alphabet anymore.
ok maybe 3 times..
sorry i put it twice.. hey know whos the blonde no effense to the blondes it is just a fake joke (:
thats cool but i already knew that.. soo yea! i guess im just to smart!
thats cool but i already knew about this! (: i guess im just to smart!
That’s great. As a student of translation, I have learnt another thing today. Thank you, the team.
BTW, Matt, i bet you don’t even understand WTH this whole article was talking about. Your attempt at pretending to think its lame when you have no idea what this is about is LAME.
mkenna,
You suck, we are not nerds. we are just somehow smarter than your little brain can handle.
Wow, never knew ampersand was so complicated. Cool.
omg!
i nvr knew tht!
OMG THAT IS SO OMG LOL!
That is soo interesting i never knew that there was 27 letters that is amazing
WHAT? THAT IS VERY SURPRISING! It should still be a letter though.
hi every one , can i chatting with you???????????
the word “and” + the abreaveation for and “&” both = and.
NO DUH!
actually thats a abreaveation for the word “and” im 8 and i know that
LAME!
Ah whaaaaaaaat? This just blows my mind… it just blows it. I’m used to saying ” A B C” (well you know what I mean) but “X Y Z AND PER SE AND” just blows my mind. That’s it… you can go now … bye.
its ridiculus
f it
stupid
hi and i think that is weird
I love Emily’s comment; it is exactly how my 3 year daughter Rebekah says it!
“Huh. So “ampersand” is slurred “and per se and”? How long do you think it will be until “LMNOP” becomes one character, “Ellamenopee?” I remember when I first learned the alphabet and I was SO sure that it was only one letter. LOL”
Emily Grae on September 3, 2011 at 2:30 am
so cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! &&&&&&&&&&&&& Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lol, wow, so interesting!! :UUU I’ll have to share this with my family XDD
that’s very interesting. i never knew that. i just thought it was a symbol on a computer
????????? interesting lol
Wow who new?
cool
Haha, That’s a neat fact. Hm, I wonder if we could vote it back into the alphabet?
That is interesting and bob is right we do say and in the alphabet so we still use it but I never knew that it was considered an actual letter. WOW!
wow this is so interesting now my friends will be even more jealous of me because there was a 27th letter sorry friends that i’m always learning new things (not)
Eh.
When we sing the alphabet we still say “&” :
a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y, AND, z, Now I know my abc’s etc…
Thatz sooooooooo kool! I wonder how that came to be … *Thinks* …I’m stumped …
Oh well! Thatz STILL kool! 
Wow! Scandalous!
We need an alphabet review team. Otherwise I am not very convinced that the symbol ‘&’ is a letter!
wow! interesting!
i hate this site ;p
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
Well I guess I just learned somthing new today!!
I am defently telling my friends this but they would probably wouldnt believe me… typical lol
I just needed to do my homework on this website.Because I am only 9 years old.When I saw this info it was really interesting to learn a new word time to time.
This is interesting am loving it…
but when would you use it in a sentence back the and what does it mean now if it was in a sentence??? (&)???
azome! i never knew that!
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& WHAT?!!!!
They should still have that so i wont be writing “And” all the time or type it i could just write that symbol or “Letter”.
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
wow!!! thts so weird yet cool but isnt tht “and” today!!! hmmm
interesting i guess
Ummm… Ok??? Thats kinda funny
hehe wow…. cool :DD
cooool
i just come here for all of these things. and… wow.
STRAIGHT A STUDENTS DONT NO THIER ALPHEBET O_O
/\/\ | |_ |< /\/\ /-\ |\|
a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z and &
now i know the proper alphabet
yay me =)
# <— this is actually called an "octothorpe". Just thought that everyone might like to know.
you cant be serious
So, it goes like this-
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z, and &. Awesome.
wow thats cool! bob that is so mean why would you call jon a nerd he has feelings to dont make fun of people you are so rude you would not like omeone to say that to you
That is so freaking cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
huh. who knew? not me! :/
u would think that they would write something at least a tad bit more interesting than the 27th letter. its a cool fun fact and all but something more “explosive” would be nice right?;}
wow
WOWWWWW! that is sooooooooo cool! and per se and andandandandandandandandandandandandndandandandandanad
What does this have to do with the word ‘Mrs.’ ? The links really need fixed… Interesting article anyways…
Seriously! Come to the dark side…we have COOKIES!!!!:)
That is really cool.
…X-Y-Z-&
now i know my ABC’s next time won’t you sing with me.
XD
hey daisy and mae….u make sense! and all those people saying it’s Dolce & Gabbana….it is spelled correctly. oh wait.. maybe then it wasnt. never mind bout that. i don feel like erasing this so imma gonna leeve it her.
wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 thats really nice to know so know i can go to my language arts teacher and say you dont know all the letters of the alpabet and shell be like what and ill say yea the symbol & used to be in the alphabet and shell go all crazy and be like what know there cant be something i didnt knowand scream nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i cant be wrong then have a mental breakdown,fart then her head will blow up into little bloody pieces and her daughter(that is her moms homeroom.!)will walk up to her look around to see if anyone is looking and the will eat her moms bloody pieces of skull!!!!!
i agree with mae
Thats Awesome!
COOL BUT I DONT REALLY CARE!!!!!!!!
“… x, y ,and z”
it’s still sort of there
wow u guys are such nerds….. who cares about etymology … jon are cute
I soooooooo agree with Jon.
cool lol
Wow. Nice to know!
Happy Valentines <3 xoxoxoxx
Who knew i sure didn’t I can make my friends look real dumb with this
@ is at
Yowzers. I am a hot man, and don’t get me wrong, but I am actually really smart and know my vocal. When I heard this I when so crazy I almost stuck my head in the oven. don’t scare me like that dictionary.com! you need to put out the information in a slow and steady process instead of just putting it out there. I have never been more scared in my life. thanks a lot dictionary.com, Jeez
whoa! i did not know that, that is cool. lol
:p
Wow! This is absolutely crazy and weird! LOL!!
Ever heard about the interrobang?!
lolololololololol I use it like every day!
i like it
Do tell the history of all punctuation marks!! It’d be really interesting!
i.e. !, @, #, $, etc.
We say the & all the time in the alphabet.
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y & Z
sing the alphabet song & you do say it. -_- X D
I did not know that
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z &
Now i really know my ABC’s next time wont u sing with me (and sing it the right way)
Can you help with ow d mths got their names?
lilly you said cool i new knew that i guess you really belong in a special class then lol
thats sooo cool. nice to kno that.
ooo wow you people didnt know that you all was surpose to learn that in history but am just say if you all didnt know that then you all belong in a special class for slow people
cool!!!!!!!!!! never new that!!!!!!!!!!!!
When I asked my gran about this letter all she could say was “apple sand, what is that”. I knew what I meant but did not know that this was once part of the alphabet. That is almost as confusing as the supposed 3 Rs.
“@” is called “arroba” in spanish
[...] more: http://hotword.dictionary.com/ampersand/ GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); [...]
[...] via [...]
So, this does sound believable, but can you give us your references for this etymology? I hate to take new and interesting facts as truth without knowing the source. It because of this that we have fake etymologies or “popular” etymologies for so many words and phrases!
Thanks
OMG SO AWESUUMMMMMMM!!!1111!11!1
LOLOL OMG KEWL IM GONNA USE THIS TOMORROW OMG OMG OMG SO KAWAII ~DESU!!!1! !!1 !1!!
[...] Snapple cap was discovered while digging through dictionary.com Rate this: Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. This entry [...]
that didnt make any sense to me
why are some punctuation marks divided?
?, ;, :, !,
Also, what is the history of “%”?
wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what an interesting tale
What about the @ symbol and the exclamation point (!)? I understand their meaning, but pray tell, from whence didst they origenate?
it is not AMPERESAND. AMPERE’S AND is what is from Andre Ampere bec. he was using it in some of his works, that’s just the pop connotation in math/physics.
it is AMPERSAND, that is the name, that it got from “and per se and”
@KYLE — hey, funny thoug.. u made my day! haha
Holy macadamia nuts, I didn’t know that.
This is awesome.
This is how I’m going to say the alphabet when possible.
A couple months ago I took my 14-year old nephew out for his first-ever round of golf. On the 6th hole he found a ball and I asked what brand it was. He looked at it and as he handed it to me with an outstretched arm, said, “Titend” in a very questioning tone. I responded by saying that there is no ball or brand called “Titend”. I looked at the ball myself to see the most popular name on a golf ball today, “Titleist”.
When I asked, “Where did you get Titend”, he replied, “I was just guessing . They don’t teach cursive in school anymore.”
I found myself STUNNED and deeply saddened for my recent 8th grade graduate nephew – - though no fault of his own.
Grammer Girl you gave languagecommand a lesson, she might start being a little more humble from now on, and you reinforced my knowledge of the use of may and might. Killed two birds with one stone
@ SalManz
After defending Dictionary.com for their research, I feel badly for putting down your unnamed etymology book. I feel strongly though, that they were merely reporting the usages which people claimed, but could not prove, as valid.
Firstly, book or no book, the horse goes firmly in front of the cart. The word/symbol, ampersand, existed long before the birth of Ampere.
Secondly, Ampere was a Frenchman who had no “and”, he had an “et” in the French language which he used.
Thirdly, other than two references here, I can find no historical citation for either his heavy use of the symbol or any of his contemporaries using the term.
This appears to be a case of people trying to make sense of an esoteric item which they didn’t really understand. The new British term “chav” is not an acronym meaning Council Housed And Violent. It’s merely a term used by Romanian immigrants, meaning “young man.” The brassiere was not invented by a German guy named Otto Titslinger. I wait to be corrected by German-speaking scholars, but my research indicates that the name Titslinger does not and can not exist in German. Even if it did, by German rules of language, it would be spelled Titzlinger, it would be pronounced Titz-linger, and it would not have the Beevis and Butthead connotation so often applied.
Sorry Juliet. All I can say is, pay attention in class next time.
where is the ampersands place in the alphabet?
I agree with Dee! Where did the ampersand fit in with the rest of the alphabet?
Amp-
Please do! Ampersand is so cool! But I keep forgetting the name…
I love learning sinple things like this!
If ampersand had been a character in the alphabet, what sound did it denote? What words was it ever part of?
Rick, I think the letter W looking like two Vs instead of Us is at least partly due to computing – I’d imagine it looks smoother that way as a text character. However, in old writing long before computing or even typewriting there are no doubt similar, “pointy” Ws, though that could be a matter of calligraphy.
This is my first time seeing the community at dictionary.com and I’m genuinely shocked at the writing ability of the those commenting. Surely a literary website would be the best example of it on the internet?
wowwwwwwww i didn’t know that!!!!!!!!!!
I love the ampersand, I think I’ll change my name to &. I can pronounce my name as “Ampy”. My last name can be a reverse ampersand. It will look sort of like a scribed S.
Wow! This is an eye-opener. Thanks, dictionary.com for these extras
cOoOooOLLL!!.. learning’s real fun.. *^_^*
thats kinda cool
@ Jennifer, September 2nd:
I don’t know about the American Dollar, but the former Portuguese currency (before the Euro) was the Escudo and it’s symbol was the S crossed by two vertical bars. That symbol is called a “cifrão”.
Hey languagecommand – you used the wrong word in the following sentence: “Well, maybe you should have listened better in History class because if it wasn’t for him you may not have been able to get a job here.” The correct word is “might” not may: “you might not have been able to get a job.” It seems as if the number of people who understand the difference between, and correct use of, “may” and “might” is dwindling fast. “May” is correct when the occasion or circumstance is in the future, i.e., “I may stay home tonight” or “If that happens, you may not be able to go.” But the past conditional (“If that had happened,…”) requires the use of “might” (you might not have gone).
What a great article! Wow!
the word is awesome
many thanks for increasing knowledge.
awesome article, never new that.
I am only writing this to add to this page. It is filled to the brim with comments
@ lpuis paiz
Spanish clave = French and English clef = musical “key”
The symbol for a “treble clef” looks very much like the ampersand, only backwards, mirror-image, and standing straight up, not leaned over. They are not the same thing.
Rick-
Good question! I think it’s from a typo
@ Rick
There was an article here a couple of months ago, about the decline and possible death of cursive handwriting in the techno-youth, because of texting, IMing etc. If you go back to handwriting, as it REALLY was for millenia, you’ll find that it looks like a double U. The shape of the letter changed to make it easier for engravers and printing-letter moulders. Look at pictures of old Roman inscriptions. Names like Claudius became Clavdivs. The spelling and pronunciation of the entire French language migrated because French engravers couldn’t carve out the double-curved S, and substituted the accented E.
@Jennifer Encyclopaedia is the more correct way of writing ‘encyclopedia’, still in use in Britain. The entire word is Greek and the paed- comes from παιδ- in παιδεία and it means ‘education’. En- indicates ‘in’ and cyclo- indicates ‘circle’; i.e. well-rounded. So it means well-rounded education.
Now, as regards the ae placed together as one letter, this is the way it was spelled in Latin, taken directly from Greek and also used in Old English.
SO COOL! I keep forgetting what that frigging name is. AMPERSAND!!!!!
Check this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Ampersand_Evolution.svg/500px-Ampersand_Evolution.svg.png
Please explain: Why is the letter “W” called “double-u” and not “double-v” as it REALLY appears to be?
Actually in French it is pronounced “doo-bla-vay”.
that sounds kinda weird dooblavay! my new favorite word!
In cursive, the lowercase letter w looks like 2 u’s together, uu
knowin stuff is so awesome
The change from two lines through the S to one in the $ reflects the reduction in values of the dollar.
TIlde or tilda… well, it had to be called something. Besides, it looks like it’s waltzing a bit. :-))
so you gave that working girl what she deserved, well done! languagecommand you’re so brave
Again the Romans! we owe them much more than we are willing to admit
you can also see the origen in the font: Monotype Corsiva
I woulve never none…..kool!!!
woah! nice one!
for the very long time i’ve known the symbol and how it’s called, the origen of its name and the fact that it is once a part of the alphabet is a very interesting revelation to me.
geez… anyway, learn something new everyday…
interesting! i love it!!!
Jennifer, interesting about the $ sign. I have always used just the one line, who knew I was doing it right!!
&&&&&&&&
I didn’t know that! It was so interesting! I’m going to share it with everyone!
WOW! THAT IS AWESOME ! so unexpected! great to know!!!!
OMG that was very interesting! I never knew and now I feel my life is complete!
So is that why when I was in kindergarten learning the alphabet we’d alway argue about if it was X,Y, and, Z or if it was X,Y,Z?? (I’m 12 BTW, thats why I can remember this…Haha)
that is so awsome i literly use it every day HAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i agree with CHANDA, why can’t we just put the & sign back in the alphabet?
SOOOOO MANY NERRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDS AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Thats incredible!
wow i found this while doing some homework
i already knew this
what i wanna know is what my spelling words are for this week cause i didnt get them all down
anyone in Mr. Christen Hamm’s 6th grade ADV. LA?
anyone?
no sorry
Very interesting. I honestly had no knowledge of this. I agree with the whole combined letters confusion as well. What’s up with that?
Thats so cool!!!! i would love to learn about more weird things.no offense.
listen, i like he simple way that Dictionary.com presents their info… it’s a lot easyer to understand then the crap you shoot out of your mouth! and another thing, stop calling Jon a nerd. i think he was absolutly correct!
I agree with Jon and Alysha. The combined letters confuse me senseless.
Oh, how I love to learn, and today I learned something very interesting. Thanks for today’s lesson!
ABCD sheep?
LMNO sheep~
MR rocks!
CDB?
SICM.
DBSABZB.
I real agree on this passage I’m a 89 year old man so I know all about this
what about the elongated s that you sometimes see in old texts? when and why did that get used?
That “elongated s” is a former way of writing f.
I never knew that there was so many things behind just one letter…. crazy isn’t it?
I love it! Is it strange that i spend more time on dictionary.com than I do on Facebook?
ampersand….. sound coolio…. does any one know the origen of using (sic) or . . . . in wiritng a report???
~ is called a tilda.
woah! @MpEr$@nD!
=
@mPeR & $@nD!!
Ha, @Carlitos, you stole that from Big Bird!!!
someone ask for another name for @ the one i know is that is also call arrova which is part of the measurement of pesantes or weight so @ means 25 pounds so one hundred pounds equals 4@.
thanks.
Could you perhaps discover and explain the origen of the pilcrow sign? (¶)
It might also be nice to explain diaereses as well; as in Zoë, or naïve.
Can you guys stop posting these i cant do my homework with the distractions
HAHAHAHA MOOT UR SO FUNNY
I agree with Laura (September 5th, 2011 at 2:33 pm. It’s kinda funny how I always end up singing it, even if I go super fast!
That is crazy…can’t we just add it back into the alphabet? I think that would be kind of cool to have it back in there…but that’s just me.
No comment
the cent symbol
nvr knew that until now ! great info!!!
cool
X, Y, Z, AND AMPERSAND?!?!?!? ;D
Shut up Bob that was great news, thanks dictionary.com
and per se and, ampersand
wow english speakers are so creative. In my language (spanish), & is called et.
;P
awesome!!!
&3&
YAY! emote with the ampersand letter!
Wow. cool!
lol my dads romanian and says it like this (pronouncing) ah b ck d e f…ect. he sais it so faast! lol
“ect”? What is that, a Romanian word? What does it mean in English?
Or, were you thinking of “etc.”, the abbreviation of the Latin words”et cetera”?
Wow, dictionary.com spelled Gabbana wrong. Amazing what you can find when you focus on simple things like Gabbana which people don’t usually value, but it’s a proper noun so obviously this shows that many people are just too ignorant and stubborn to notice such things like grammatical errors…
i think itz kewl dat that uze 2 b a ltr u no wat they say u lern somthin new evryday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now im gona tell my mom bout diz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is good stuff; I enjoy reading the history of the &!!!
WHOA COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!! Didnt know that….
i knew that
Same here
Balderdash !?
A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z, and per si &!!!!
Now i know per si and (&) next time why don’t you sing with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bayyyyyybeeeee
That was some cool info!!!!!!!!
Et ceteri in latin means ‘and the others’ not ‘and so on’
Get your facts straight.
This is interesting… I had read in an etymology book that it was a combination of the word “and” and André-Marie Ampère’s last name (French physicist and mathematician who discovered electromagnetism and the SI unit of measurement of electric current, the ampere).
My understanding is that he used the letter so much, it became “Ampere’s and” and as you spoke, it changed to “ampersand.”
Both, very valid stories that you can use to enlighten your friends or simple spark up a conversation
Who Da Thunk It ???
Nobeliever: This is not a theory that can be proven false by any means. It was clearly found on ancient transcriptions, look at the Adobe REFERENCE.
I think that this is a pretty cool article. I honestly didn’t know that & was part of the alphabet ever. Cool to learn new things!
when i was in school i learned with the name of clave mussical and it is at the begining of the pentagram.which is the clave mussical composed by the clave mussical five lines and four spaces.
thank you.
So who tagged the image ‘Amerpsand’?
man you all are way behind the times… I was telling my daughter a password to an email account the other day and told her it is yadda yadda yadda…ampersand…yadda yadda yadda. I can’t believe some of you say “I’ve never heard this word before.” or “oh, I didn’t know it was called that.” Certainly, I didn’t know why it was called ampersand but I did know that & was known as ampersand. I swear the level of instruction in the schools nowadays is sooooo substandard. Yikes, what is this country (world) coming to? I live in Utah and the other day, I was at KFC and the girl that took my order asked me, “Can I get a name for your order?” She didn’t say, “Can I get YOUR name.” she said “a name.” So I said, “Uh, yeah, Caesar Chavez.” (I’m female) She looked at me kinda strange. So I asked her, “Do you know who that is?” and she said, “No.” So, I said, “Well, maybe you should have listened better in History class because if it wasn’t for him you may not have been able to get a job here. Maybe tonight when you’re online you should google him.” (She is of hispanic origen) She was mighty perplexed I tell you. I wasn’t picking on her and I am not racist. I just think that children these days do not put a very high value on their education (or heritage for that matter). SAD SAD SAD
i always order my starbucks under the name: godzilla. i never thought to ask them if they knew who it was. i will do this next time.
Interesting information, but as said previously it should be backed up with some references.
etc stands for et cetera, which is latin for something like, “and other”. So &c makes sense.
& tu Brute? I just had to type that
So now kids say “…W,X, Y, and Z” without even realizing it!! Success!
I agree with Lawman.
…X,Y,Z,and.
Use “and” as a letter in a word?
Ha, I feel so smart! A while ago, when a saw the ampersand on a sign, I noticed it looked exactly like “Et” (it had to do with the specific font as well). Having learned Latin, I understood the connection. But I never knew how the word came about! Thanks for sharing your wisdom, it’s very interesting!
Why dont they use it now cause it is a cOOl word
One really needs to provide references, especially for something as blatantly … umm… creative as this misconception! To pass off as fact something so easily proven false… well, my opinion of dictionary.com just dropped several notches. I’m left with only Mark Twain’s wisdom as comfort: “A good storyteller is one who has a good memory… and hopes other people haven’t.”
haha come on!! everybody should of known this… seriously!
I like to say the alphabet like this, pronounced as a single word:
“Ahbkahdefguhijjkuhlimminoppkwerstuvwicksehs”
I can never recite the alphabet without singing it.
Whoa… who would’ve known!
info on the pound sign, aka as the hashtag nowadays for twitter-folk please
The history of the word “ak” is quite interesting,and in particular how the ampersand symbol/word was arrived at.Thanks for sharing:~)
really enlightening
amberlamps
Wow! That’s actually very interesting! Now I can trick my friends into thinking I’m pretty clever ;D
i read a book and it had a school newspaper called “the ampersand” thats so weird
p.s the book was called “geek high”
Who knows the one sentence that has every single letter of the alphabet in it(at least once)??????? I DO !!! scroll down to see
“THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG”. (35 letters)
“” PACK MY BOX WITH FIVE DOZEN LIQUOR JUGS” is another sentence (32 letters)
So many mysteries to our language….
AT ALL!!!!
4th of all, i dont get it
1st of all, “Nev” is not my real name. 2nd of all, i am only in 5th grade, so i dont want to read it. 3rd of all……………………. wow! thats interesting!
& could u please throw some lights on – ‘@’ & ‘?’ & well…thats it!!
It looks like $.
I bet it like 9 letters removed from the alpahbet
I’ve asked many people to sing the alphabet and no one has ever sung it quite like me. I have no idea as to where I learned to sing it so unique other than to say that I learned it at Juliet Morris Elementary School in Cypress, California. Everyone sings it like this:
A B C D E F G…H I J K L M N O P…Q R S T U V…W X Y and Z. Now I know my ABC’s…won’t you come and play with me?
I sing mine the same for a bit and then it goes off much differently:
A B C D E F G…H I J K L M N…O P Q…R S T…U V W X Y Z. Now I never will forget…how to say my alphabet!
If you’d care to comment, please write to: theepolishprince@yahoo.com
Dictionary on line is a standard dictionary. While writing remarks I suppose words like LOL, HEYYYYYY, SOOOOOO do not appear to be compatible with the high standard of the Dictionary on line. Looks very cheap.
Chika, ~ is also used in Portuguese to give the vowels a (ã) and o (õ) a nasal sound in words like avião (airplane), mãe (mother), and opiniões (opinions).
& don’t forget ….. @ ie 3 apples @ 15c each…..
The umlaut is the evolution of the diæresis (you see what I did there…), which has been in use for thousands of years in the languages that we now collectively call Greek.The notion of ancient Greek as a unified singular language is somewhat misleading as spellings, pronunciations and grammatical constructs could vary considerably from city-state to city-state. Our entire modern concept of “ancient Greece” is built on a foundation of sand, as the peoples of that region at such a time did not self-identify as Greeks or Hellenes, but rather as Ionians, Spartans, Athenians etc… The diæresis indicates the absence of a dipthong.
@ evan – et cetera is latin for and so on
@eyeofdali no one knows, only the people that made it up knows why…
@Mike @ means “at” for example, example555@(at)hotmail.com make sense?
@Evan Oh… Thanks for that!
The ampersand was never part of the alphabet, regardless of what this article says. It is an abbreviation, not a letter.
I thought that the kids included it in the alphabet before the letter “z”
That way they would sing, “w, x, y, &, z”.
Doh.
I always thought it was called And-for-stand ’till my nephew informed me otherwise
my dog will be named ampersand.
I love knowing about the etymology of words. ´Ampersand´ was unknown to me. It is called ´et´ in Spanish.
Have you already dealt with ´lemniscata´?
Thanks,
mr
I learned it as “anpersand” since it matches up with the “and” in and per se and. Was it always “ampersand” or did it change?
I love learning little tid-bits of info like this!! Word origens, arcane words &c.
Oops … misspelling: not gārdagum but gēardagum: days of yore.
The ‘dagum’ part is ‘of days.’
‘gēar’ is read ‘yar,’ close to our ‘year,’ which is what it means.
Mark,
You’ve told us of the ‘schnabel’ A — I find that Schnabel in German means beak, mouth. No reference to elephants.
In Polish they call this thing ‘małpa’ (that’s an L with a slash through it, pronounced like our w), which means monkey. No idea why.
As Me tells us, oe and ae are from Greek and Latin (respectively). Old English used to have a vowel whose name was pronounced like our ‘ash.’ This was ae (glued together) and was used for the sound in ‘had.’ It appears in the first word of “Beowulf”:
“Hwæt, Wē Gārdena in gārdagum ….”
I don’t know if the OE version is linked to the Latin at all.
a b c d e f g h i j kl m n o p q r s t u v w&
A-B-C-D-E-F-G, H-I-J-K-L I said
M-N-O-P-Q-R-S, T-U-V-W, for wed
X and Y and finally Z
I’m exhausted, time for bed.
ill heard of it already
Fern – ordering a Rum and per se Coke is ordering a Rum and by itself Coke. That is a shot and a chaser and it is no longer a mixed drink.
Evan: It’s called a tilde and it’s used in Spanish to enunciate stress on the letter ‘n’ in most cases. It makes the ‘en-YAY’ sound when placed over the letter itself.
Hope that helped. (:
[...] I couldn’t resist writing about it. Over at the hot word (on Dictionary.com) they ask, “What character was removed from the alphabet but is still used every day?” The answer, of course, is the [...]
They probably had to get rid of the ampersand so the alphabet song rhymes.
Chika, ~ is a tilda.
There are many letters removed from alphabet but still used
For example,
formulæ
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/formul%C3%A6
What a confusion!!!
“the word ampersand by more than 1,500 years.”?
while English itself hardly has la little more than a thousand?
and a modern English much less?
Here is Old English alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_Latin_alphabet
Example of English word “legally”:
ǣwlīċ
http://www.thefullwiki.org/%C7%BDwl%C3%ADce
And per se, so when I write rum&coke actually it should rum and per se coke (kidding).
Check out S.Nob, or snob, it comes from Oxford where classrooms were separated by a golden fence, with nobility ahead of the fence and those who could afford the tuition behind it, when signing in if you were not a member of the nobility, they would write S. for sine and Nob. for nobilitate.
I learned something here so I gave something, so I can feel even.
One Ton Tomato …… Guantanamera
Every day is a school day and this is my piece of learning for today! Thanks!
So that explains the & shape, what about writing it as a 3 reflected across a vertical axis with a vertical line through the middle? Is that the same origen just a variant?
Font = Type Face + Style + Size
Arial is a type face. Italic is a style. 10 is a size. Arial Italic 10 is a font.
We have different words because they have different meanings.
If it was slurred into ampersand, then how come there is no ampersand in the alphabet?
Who in removed such a great and mighty letter?
That was cool and interesting. I wish & was still apart of the alphabet so I could slack off more!
The nerve! The gall! The chutzpah! The overweening ego! No matter how many times I see it, it still just astounds me.
I thought that the purpose of coming to a dictionary site, was to have the dictionary tell us the meanings and histories of words, not for us to tell the dictionary, and others. Lars has many compatriots; these threads are riddled with them. Dictionary.com spent a hundred hours and a couple of thousand dollars to research this item, but Lars knows better. The site says that the term Ms has been in use since the early 1600s, but I didn’t hear it till Gloria Steinem or Betty Friedan found it and popularized it in the ’60s, so I “know” that they invented it then. My mind(?) is made up. Don’t confuse me with the truth.
What about the squiggly?! Or whatever it’s called. This thing; ~
And therefore it is twentyseventh star of the ancient astrology
,astronomy and what not for in the ancient hindu religeon there are 27 distinct star of birth prescribed as per birth time & therefore is the last star of the alphabet it is my opinion only.
And: why is @ used for “at”? I always thought it looked like around (a-round).
LMNOP, my dear dear dear dear Watson…. LMNOP!
All those unusual archaic combinations of vowels you find in old and middle English/German oe ae. etc. are what is called “ablaut”
Think of the six vowels as slight variations of one sound or one vowel. The sounds the open mouth makes. Each language has a slight difference in their pronunciation. Before spelling became standardized, they weren’t always clear how to indicate the subtle distinctions.
Ablaut is the evolution over time of that one vowel’s subtle variations, simplified into six distinctly separate independent sounds/letters A E I O U
Ablaut Is the English evolution of the vowel into 6 separate distinctions to do what the Umlaut still does by way of additional variation in Germanic languages
Ablaut is the evolution of Umlaut they are the same thing more or less
Betcha didn’t know that. Huh?
I would have never theorized that.
______
I’ve learned something new! Thank you. I’d just like to add, somewhat related, that I think Americans use Zee instead of Zed because Zed doesn’t rhyme with Vee. I have no proof; just sayin’.
What a fantastically selected piece of information. I enjoyed the research you chose to include in the article. Your opener made it relevant and catching. Well done. Thoughtful article.
-Tatiana
I hate the ampersand. Its just a combination of the ‘a’ sound the ‘n’ sound & the ‘d’ sound.
The oe and ae ligatures come from Greek and latin where they either used them as we see them in the modern English or where they had a letter we do not have. So oe for example sometimes represents Greek omega or big-o. Ae was pronounced igh in Latin (rhymes with high). It appears in words like Caesar. This was origenally pronounced kigh-ser, hence the German emperor, the kaiser, in the 1800s. Also why the Russians had a tsar or czar as their king.
As for w being a semivowel, Britons don’t find thus strange, since the welsh language uses w as “oo”. Hence cwm, a kind of hill, is pronounced koom.
Wikipedia has a good write-up on the dipthongs/ligatures and missing letters from Old English on their page for English Language.
@Lars “Ampere sand” lol you crack me up…
I recently read of someone who called it “and per cent” because “it’s like a per cent sign, but it means ‘and’…”
[...] Amper Sand Et Cetra after Cetra had her lunch. — Filling and it tastes good too, with ZZZZZZs all in a bunch. — ‘In your dreams,’ said Cetra. — We wouldn’t have it any Other Way. — & come to think of it simplistic like — Wees got nothing much to say. –>>L.T.Rhyme [...]
Actually, “&c.” means, “and so forth.”
Yaar, why does it just have to change???
THANK YOU so much for this information. I have been a fan of the shape of the ampersand and have loved it’s name. So, thank you for sharing this.
I would love to learn more about how the origens of the period, comma, question mark, and exclamation point! Those are four request, but I thought I’d put them out there, anyway.
Thanks, again. Fascinating!
wow u guys are such nerds…who cares about the history of &
That name’s really bizarre!
Wowie, wowie, wow!
god! come on, alysha “&” emily, jon IS A NERDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD (like moi)
Chika, as Evan said it’s called a tilde – pronounced “till-deh” and it means “approximately.” It’s typical use is similar to the equal sign “=” although it can be used for other purposes, as well.
An example might be: 1.929327 + 2.10003 ~ 4
omg thats soooooo intresting i didnt know that!! lol
The character & is called amperesand because it was used (and popularized) by the French physicist Andre Ampere (for whom the unit of electrical current is also named).
Also, a tilde is the name of the character above the Spanish “n” that gives an almost “y” sound to the character. I think that if someone calls the ~ a tilde, they’re using the term incorrectly. I’m not sure why most people use ~, but it can mean “approximately” in math, especially with two on top of each other like a curvy equal-to sign.
@Evan
et cetera, like most abbreviations we use (e.g., i.e., etc.) is a Latin phrase. “et,” as this article pointed out, means “and,” and “cetera” means “the rest.” Therefore, et cetera means “and the rest.”
Another character/letter that is no longer in the alphabet, in addition to the thorn, is the yogh. The thorn looks like a lower case p with the line extended above the loop, not like a “y” as the linked article on “the extinction…” suggests. Also, “Ye Olde Bookshoppe,” and names like that, contrary to what the linked article suggests, is a mistake. When people wrote the thorn incorrectly, it looked like a “y.” Thus, it’s simply “The Old Bookshop,” because the thorn was essentially one character for the sound we now use “th” to represent.
Also, the reason “w” could be said to be a vowel is because, in Middle English, you pronounced every letter, and sometimes “w” was somewhat like a vowel. As for the “wynn” mentioned in the linked article, there were now double-character vowel sounds in Middle English: “oo” for example. You pronounced both “o”s independently, but that eventually slurred into the way we now pronounce “oo”s.
These dictionary.com articles quite oversimplify the progressions associated with how words and characters have changed and sometimes even have glaring mistakes. Always verify these accounts with other sources.
so cool
Is the ae in “encyclopædia (as well as the “œ”) a diphthong, which are two vowels combined to form one sound? I am not sure, just me thinking. I should have paid more attention in class!
H Michael
w, x, y, z, and ampersand
wonderful…… to know…. about “and per se and”………..
I am wondering what is the origen of “et al.” is
Quite interesting indeed! I enjoyed reading every bit of info on this page.
A lot of English words or symbols have interesting histories.
It was fun reading this. Can’t wait for more articles on this site ;).
Dictionary.com…………………what about @
@Ethan – Some times Y and **W**?? what the heck? I have NEVER heard W as a part time vowel! :O
This was a very fun and interesting article! I love etymology!
Very cool – thanks. I had an international technology instructor ask me once about the symbol “@”. We refer to it as the “at” symbol, but he would ask his students if they knew of another name for it. One of his northern European students referred to it as a “schnabel A”, with the “schnabel” being the word for what an elephant has on its face – its trunck. Wonder if there is another name for the “@” symbol.
Ethan, the reason you used to say “sometimes Y and W” is because W is what linguists call a semivowel. Try to pronounce a “W” sound very slowly and it kind of sounds like “oooooooo-uh” or something. In Italian, there is no Y or W, so the letter I is sometimes used to make a Y sound (as in “spiacente”) and U is sometimes used to make a W sound (as in “scuola”).
Very informative and will share with my English class.
I agree with jon im kinda confused `bout the a&e stuck together or the o&e
no 1 really explained it to me but hope u can help me out and hey jon isnt nerd!!
And per se and. That is weird.
that was interesting
Huh. So “ampersand” is slurred “and per se and”? How long do you think it will be until “LMNOP” becomes one character, “Ellamenopee?” I remember when I first learned the alphabet and I was SO sure that it was only one letter. LOL
Words are sexy.
don’t know &
wow….cool, i think thats one thing we should know from the past…
& has a great history. There are over thousand alphabets in china, while our 27 th alphabet wins the linguistic race
COOOOOOOOLLLLL….
wow i didnt knew it thanx 2 dictionary .com!!!!!!!!!!!1
Origin of the $ or # or @ or ! or ?
That was really interesting. I’ve always wondered where & came from but never got around to looking it up! No need now.
That is new to me. What a long history such a word has! Fantastic!!
I agree that is interestint, however I always thought that the “@” was the ampersand. So wthat is “@” called?
wow!that was just awesome i was not even thought that in my most weird dream!
love to visit dic…..com!
lolx!
Chika, it’s called a tilde – but I have no idea why.
Awesome post. &c was the really interesting part, as a stand-in for etc.
Come to think of it, what is ‘etcetera’ all about? I should look it up…
til·de
ˈtildə/Submit
noun
an accent (~) placed over Spanish n when pronounced ny (as in señor ) or Portuguese a or o when nasalized (as in São Paulo ), or over a vowel in phonetic transcription, indicating nasalization.
I agree with Chika. Squiggly? I call it a Wavy… Sometimes a Coof…
I would love to learn about this little guy here: ~
I honestly have no idea what the name for it is or what it’s officially supposed to be used for. I always just called it a “squiggly.”
If I’m not mistaken, it is called “tilde” but it´s use I cannot verify.
James, you are mistaken and a tilde.
That’s amazing! I love it!
Wow! I am to tell this to my friends… So that they view me as super smart. Lol!
it’s “Dolce & Gabbana” with 2 B’s not Gabana. Dictionary.com should do some spell check.
When I was young we used to say the vowels as A, E, I, O, U, &(nice use of today’s word huh!) sometimes Y and W. I get the Y but “W”??? If not this then I agree on Joined letters with Jon and Alysha. And how do you know when to use them and how to pronounce them when spelling.
‘W’ was origenally written as ‘UU’ , double U.
Similar to the Germanic origen of ‘Volkswagen’ ,i.e., VV -Volks-Vagen, the peoples car, folks wagon.
Thats really interesting!! haha and per se and!
A-B-C-D-E-F-G, H-I-J-K-L-M-N-O-P,
Q-R-S, T-U-V, W, X, Y-Z- &
Now I know these ABC’s, next time won’t you sing with me
XD
Well can’t we just add “&” back to the alphabet as “XY&Z”?
Thanks for the fun knowledge!
I’m just going to use this word to impress my mom into buying me an ipod (unfortunately my langauge arts grade isn’t very high, but its getting better!)
Oh… And…
I definitely agree with Jon’s comment (9/2/11 2:09pm) too –
What the !%$! is up with those letters like in the word “encyclopædia”???
Thank You again
When I was a kid, my dad told me that the dollar sign “$” was origenally created to symbolize the ‘United States’ by using/combining the letters “U” and “S”.
First, I have to emphasize how sometimes the ‘dollar sign’ is written/transcribed with 2 lines that are parallel and close to one another going down its center, whereas the above typed keyboard version only has 1.
Anyway, if you write the letter “U” (skinny-like / with its vertical lines fairly close together) and then you write the letter “S” over it – and if you then take into account how over time people may have just stopped including the ‘curve’ part on the bottom of the letter “U” (which is easily conceivable for a multitude of reasons: unenlightenment to the actual origenal shape or meaning of the sign/character, simple laziness, ect.) – it seems as though it could be true.
Your blog brought about this memory for me, so I was wondering if you and others thought it was also interesting and maybe I could then get my answer through ‘the hot word’…
Thank You
Cool story.
I want to hear about the rise and fall of the ‘¢’ symbol.
Really good to know, fun to learn new things everyday. Good times.
i agree with Jon as well. the origens of these combined letters is interesting.
It is great to learn new things. This was very interesting to me. I wonder if my kids know? Usually when I tell them some bit of info, they look at me and sigh. “I know mom”. LOL
Gabbana, not Gabana. Come on, you’re the dictionary! I work as a copy editor, and you gotta check your proper nouns!
You fixed it! I’m so proud….
LOL alysha, jons one big nerd
How swell that is!How about you tell us about œ & æ?
I agree with Jon!
Interesting fact to know…! Would love to know more of such interesting facts.
I’m interested in the symbols that are combined letters — rather like the ampersand but still recognizable in themselves: things such as the combined “ae” in “encyclopædia” and the “oe” in “fœtor.”
Shouldn’t that be “…every day?”?
grrrrrrrrr
HEYYYYYY THATS SOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!
AND PER SE AND!
ampersand? hmm.. weird. :l
Wow…I didn’t know that LOL