19:58:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:58:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-svg-irc
19:58:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:58:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
19:58:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:58:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
19:58:43 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:58:43 <trackbot> Date: 29 March 2012
19:59:41 <cyril> cyril has joined #svg
20:00:16 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started
20:00:22 <Zakim> +??P5
20:00:32 <ed> Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:00:32 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:00:58 <Zakim> +cyril
20:02:38 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:02:56 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0185.html
20:03:12 <Zakim> +Tav
20:03:14 <ed> and agenda+ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0187.html
20:03:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:03:23 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:03:23 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:04:27 <Zakim> +krit
20:04:30 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:04:30 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed
20:04:38 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:04:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose krit
20:04:49 <cyril> +Present: Nikos
20:04:55 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:04:55 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed
20:04:58 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:04:58 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Doug_Schepers
20:05:25 <krit> scribeNick: krit
20:05:29 <ed> chair: ed
20:05:51 <krit> topic: Finishing SVG 2 reuirements
20:05:55 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0175.html
20:06:08 <krit> cyril: I have an issue
20:08:08 <krit> heycam: I have an action for the first item
20:08:13 <krit> heycam: not done yet
20:08:46 <krit> heycam: action number: 3251
20:08:50 <ed> ACTION-3251
20:09:21 <krit> ed: what about smil time containers?
20:09:34 <krit> heycam: yes, let's take a look at that
20:09:48 <krit> heycam: I am happy about brians efforts
20:10:20 <krit> ed: any concerns?
20:10:48 <krit> shepazu: I suspect MS might have concerns but they are not here
20:12:11 <krit> heycam: I thing it is the full smil time container
20:12:22 <krit> cyril: he doesn't want elements but attributes
20:12:53 <nikos> nikos has joined #svg
20:13:04 <cyril> zakim, who is here
20:13:04 <Zakim> cyril, you need to end that query with '?'
20:13:08 <cyril> zakim, who is here?
20:13:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, cyril, Doug_Schepers, Tav, heycam, krit
20:13:24 <cyril> +nikos
20:14:08 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/Animation_improvements#Issue:_SMIL_is_greatly_complicated_by_syncbase_timing
20:14:12 <krit> resolution: SVG 2.0 requirement: support SMIL time containers
20:15:04 <krit> cyril: we want the feature of smil time containers, but not necessarily the element iteself
20:15:22 <cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
20:15:22 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-svg-irc#T20-15-22
20:15:45 <krit> heycam: "Consider adding a 'key()' keyword for animation triggers"
20:16:10 <krit> heycam: You can just get a single character no a key. Not good defined
20:16:25 <krit> cyril: don't think that this is an issue
20:16:47 <krit> cyril: I discussed security issues with brian on accessKeys
20:19:45 <krit> cyril: SVG integration of accessKeys might be modified to address security issues 
20:22:11 <krit> ed: we should come up with a proposal that adresses security issues
20:23:13 <krit> resolution: SVG 2 requirement:Consider adding a 'key()' keyword for animation triggers and addressing security issues
20:23:57 <krit> krit: timelineBegin attribute on <svg> element next?
20:24:11 <krit> krit: even for inner SVG elements?
20:24:49 <krit> cyril: we should not speack about documents but time container
20:25:25 <krit> cyril: we can start new time containers anywhere. We should talk about that after we have time container
20:26:07 <krit> cyril: Oh, I think timlineBegin should only be on the document
20:26:54 <cyril> see syncBehavior to control the timeline of a time container
20:26:59 <krit> heycam: you might not want to wait for document load end to start animations
20:27:39 <krit> krit: I think it should be part of the time container
20:28:01 <krit> heycam: it might make sense to start animations on a time container before the content is fully loaded
20:28:12 <cyril> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Run-time_Synchronization_attributes
20:28:13 <krit> cyril: I think we already have a resolution.
20:28:30 <krit> heycam: it was more about synchronizing media
20:28:49 <krit> cyril: i don't think so
20:29:14 <krit> cyril: e.g if you have video and audio that could differ from the timeline of the document
20:29:33 <krit> cyril: I agree with the request, we should define whne the timeLine begins
20:29:47 <krit> heycam: Well, I am fine with it
20:30:46 <krit> resolution: SVG 2 should specify when timeline starts. (maybe by a timeLine attribute)
20:31:40 <krit> s/resolution: SVG 2 should specify when timeline starts. (maybe by a timeLine attribute)/resolution: SVG2 will support a means for having SMIL animations start before their time container has fully loaded/
20:32:28 <krit> heycam: The <discard> element
20:32:55 <krit> ed:  to throw away elements based on animations. Good for big files on streaming
20:33:05 <krit> cyril: use case is still valid
20:33:40 <krit> cyril: there might be issues on scripting the <discard> elements
20:33:47 <krit> cyril: we should fix that
20:35:44 <krit> cyril: have you implemented it?
20:35:49 <krit> ed: yes, think so
20:37:07 <ed> s/yes, think so/yes, opera implements the <discard> element/
20:37:32 <krit> heycam: brian seems not to be opposed to ti
20:37:39 <krit> s/ti/it/
20:38:01 <krit> ed: can we resolve requirements?
20:38:33 <krit> resolution: SVG 2 will have <discard> elements to discard elements from the document tree
20:39:02 <krit> cyril: The 'playbackOrder' attribute on the<svg>  element next
20:39:25 <ed> s/<discard> elements to discard/<discard> element to declaratively discard/
20:41:02 <cyril> If 'playbackOrder' is set to 'forwardOnly', the content will probably contain 'discard' elements or scripts that destroy resources, thus seeking back in the document's timeline may result in missing content.
20:41:27 <krit> heycam: more important for the UI controls
20:41:30 <cyril> Similarly the UA should disable any controls it may provide in the user interface for seeking backwards.
20:41:46 <cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#SVGElementPlaybackOrderAttribute
20:42:21 <krit> ed: not sure ahow important the attribute is
20:43:02 <krit> ed: a lot of shoulds and mays
20:43:42 <krit> cyril: should you revert the elements?
20:44:05 <krit> cyril: we could use plabackOrder also with scripts
20:44:26 <krit> heycam: it might be useful if UIs have some build in controls
20:44:41 <krit> heycam: does flash have it?
20:45:08 <krit> heycam: you didn't implement this attribute yet?
20:45:10 <krit> cyril: no
20:45:19 <krit> ed: no, oper either
20:45:28 <krit> s/oper/Opera/
20:46:05 <krit> ed: might only be useful for UIs
20:46:16 <krit> ed: not sure if the wording is so great either
20:47:32 <cyril> resolution: SVG 2 should support the playbackOrder attribute to inform UA to not display controls to seek backwards
20:48:22 <krit> ed: we have all the things
20:48:47 <krit> topic: SVG next phase
20:48:49 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments
20:50:31 <krit> krit: At adobe we will most likely specialise on glyphs and fonts, discussion is still going on
20:50:42 <krit> ed: I don't want to sign up for to many at this point
20:51:06 <krit> ed: I might sing up for a couple more
20:51:33 <krit> cyril: I haven't discussed it yet with colleagues 
20:51:39 <Zakim> -Tav
20:51:46 <krit> heycam: I have a bunch of them
20:51:59 <krit> heycam: most of them will be align with html5
20:52:16 <Zakim> +Tav
20:54:34 <cyril> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page#Milestones
20:55:34 <krit> cyril: We should do as much as possible till april to publish first WD till July
20:55:53 <krit> cyril: And then make a second round for missing requirments
20:56:05 <krit> heycam: july is the first step
20:56:56 <krit> heycam: and then straight to last call in january
20:59:00 <krit> shepazu: We should have as much as possible but should go out with what we have
20:59:54 <krit> shepazu: the first WD should have the new things in it
21:00:05 <krit> shepazu: we focus on the new stuff
21:00:23 <krit> shepazu: people are more interessted in the new stuff than what SVG 1.1 has
21:04:49 <Zakim> -heycam
21:04:58 <cyril> I think we need to do 3 things: freeze the commitments, start editing the spec to add the annotations for this first set of reqs and then start receiving proposals 
21:05:12 <cyril> and evaluating them 
21:07:00 <krit> resolution: Commitments on SVG parts we want to work on will be frozen by next week
21:08:13 <Zakim> +??P0
21:08:19 <heycam> Zakim, ??P0 is me
21:08:19 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
21:08:37 <krit> topic: extract part of an SVG image by its id
21:08:46 <heycam> Zakim, code?
21:08:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), heycam
21:09:05 <krit> shepazu: I send an email with the conversation that I have with fantasai
21:09:17 <krit> shepazu: you all have read
21:09:46 <krit> shepazu: media fragment spec let you point to different parts of document you want
21:10:54 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0189.html has some examples I cooked up, using ids for selecting parts of an svg "spritemap"
21:11:22 <krit> shepazu: think about a use element can point to an element in SVG and just wants to show this one
21:11:52 <krit> shepazu: an CSS image would access that
21:12:14 <krit> shepazu: we had one use case in SVG for navigation
21:12:39 <krit> shepazu: fantasai proposes what a fragment is in SVG 2 and what to do when the UA points to that
21:12:42 <TabAtkins> Fantasai's point that SVG just needs to define what a hash *represents* is sufficient.  We can take over from there.  But defining it as representing "navigate/scale/whatever the viewport" isn't useful.
21:12:48 <krit> shepazu: what is the navigation behavior
21:13:13 <TabAtkins> And then you can say that the default behavior is to navigate to the referenced element.
21:14:44 <ed> http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon-target.svg#chart
21:14:50 <ed> http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon-target.svg#plus
21:15:17 <krit> ed: it should work in FF as well
21:15:44 <ed> it works in all browsers
21:16:25 <krit> heycam: one use viewBox on the target and two hide the other ones
21:18:01 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/sprites.svg
21:19:48 <krit> heycam: most document just gone have a part of an image with an ID. There won't be an viewBox arround it
21:19:59 <ed> ed has left #svg
21:20:05 <ed> ed has joined #svg
21:20:06 <krit> ed: what eric did works fin here.
21:21:10 <heycam> would like to know how this relates to <view> -- <view> is kind of indirect, so this would provide the same/similar functionality but be simpler?
21:21:34 <cyril> and #svgView()
21:21:35 <TabAtkins> woo
21:21:49 <krit> shepazu: if we get auhtoring tools to support this than we are fine
21:21:57 <ed> http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon.svg#chart
21:22:38 <ed> this alternative uses <view> elements to define the viewboxes
21:22:58 <krit> heycam: you have to define a viewBox
21:23:28 <ed> ... and lacks the display:none things, which could be added of course, similarly to http://dahlström.net/tmp/sharp-icons/svg-icon-target.svg#chart
21:23:41 <krit> shepazu: currentyl the SVG 1.1 says that its simple goes to view port of the SVG anchetor of this elements
21:23:48 <krit> shepazu: you just have the svg root
21:25:13 <krit> krit: I saw eriks solution some times, mostly for zooming
21:25:29 <krit> shepazu: eirks solution is a good interim solution
21:26:56 <krit> cyril: just want to confirm the next F2F meetings
21:27:26 <ed> Seattle, USA, 25-27 July, 2012
21:28:11 <krit> cyril: what is the next one?
21:28:18 <krit> cyril: TPAC, SVG open?
21:28:37 <ed> topic: next svg f2f meetings
21:28:44 <krit> shepazu: this is the last SVG Open
21:29:08 <krit> shepazu: would be good to have on f2f at SVG open
21:30:15 <krit> cyril: can you attend to TPAC and SVG open?
21:30:29 <krit> Tav: figure it out
21:31:08 <krit> topic: SVG functionality in Canvas
21:31:36 <krit> krit: I was surprised about the SVG path stuff in Canvas
21:32:13 <krit> heycam: I think he wants to make sure that path or matrix work well or at least similar as the SVG one
21:33:04 <krit> shepazu: hixie asked SVG WG to review it before he lands stuff
21:34:36 <krit> shepazu: but now he published it
21:34:51 <krit> shepazu: I think we should review what is there and send coments
21:35:11 <heycam> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html
21:35:29 <krit> shepazu: I suggest to mail the comments to the canvas mailing list, svg mailing list and hixie
21:35:49 <TabAtkins> Yes, please.  "Publishing" does not in any way imply it's frozen (until implementations emerge).
21:36:05 <krit> The SVG stuff in Canvas so far: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#path-objects
21:36:44 <krit> shepazu: SVG WG should be involved in how SVG error handling works
21:38:36 <krit> heycam: I will review it
21:39:38 <krit> shepazu: thats enought for now
21:39:55 <krit> shepazu: can we start with these topics on next meeting minutes?
21:41:21 <cyril> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#hit-regions
21:41:36 <krit> shepazu: next f2f over emails and telcom times on next meeting
21:41:55 <Zakim> -ed
21:44:08 <Zakim> -heycam
21:44:11 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:44:14 <Zakim> -Tav
21:44:19 <Zakim> -cyril
21:44:34 <krit> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:44:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/29-svg-minutes.html krit
21:44:38 <cyril> zakim, who is here?
21:44:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit
21:48:43 <Zakim> -krit
21:48:44 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
21:48:44 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, cyril, Doug_Schepers, Tav, [IPcaller], heycam, krit
21:52:40 <heycam> shepazu, krit, looking at the spec for the Path(d) constructor, it says "The resulting path could be empty. SVG defines error handling rules for parsing and applying path data."
21:52:55 <heycam> so I'm not sure what there is to complain about
21:53:07 <heycam> we do have rules in SVG about rendering up to the point of an error in the path data
21:53:08 <krit> heycam: just commented some lines before on the chat
21:53:19 <krit> krit hixie changes the note about error handling on SVG Path to : The resulting path could be empty. SVG defines error handling rules for parsing and applying path data.
21:53:32 <krit> and this seems fine for me
21:53:35 <heycam> ok
21:53:37 <krit> so it was fixed
21:58:15 <shepazu> yeah, though we don't call it error-handling (and should)
22:05:02 <fantasai> shepazu, krit: there seems to be some confusion on the CSSWG list about SVG Transforms vs. CSS Transforms. Maybe one of you can clear that up?
22:05:05 <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012JanMar/0492.html
22:16:15 <krit> fantasai: argh. Why are these kind of discussions not on publix-fx?
22:16:56 <krit> even worst, I did not get these mails :(
22:31:04 <cyril> just to confirm, we have addressed all the initial proposed requirements (179/179)
22:31:17 <cyril> there remains only 4 late ones: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#Late_Proposed_Requirements
22:32:12 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins has left #svg

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