Talk:Jokela school shooting

Battlefield 2

is it at all relevent that he was playing battlefield 2 before he shot up the school? I personally dont think it is. Its as relevent as saying what he had for his breakfast.

It is interesting to look over his profile. Pulseczar 14:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Categories

Do we really need a category called "School massacres in Finland"? This is the only article in it (since it's the first of its kind). It seems inappropriate, as if we're expecting more to happen. Nerwende 11:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. We can still add the category once there MORE the one or two articles on school shootings in finland. i removed the article from the category. --7swords 14:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

According to the article, the previous Finnish school shooting was in 1989, so there's at least one other past incident that could conceivably have an article and live in that category. IceKarmaॐ 11:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Should it not just be in a 'School shootings' catagory? Seems more fitting.ArdClose 11:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible Bias

"Auvinen built his own lifestance full of hate." This is very subjective, and doesn't take into account that many of us out here think what he was doing was trying to improve humanity. Take a look at [1] Conservationist2012 02:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC) 02:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

All I can say is, having read that diatribe at anus.com, that it has about as much value as things that usually come out of anuses.69.228.26.62 02:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Youtube Mirror

I have a mirror to one of his youtube profiles. I think some of you might want to check this out; http://retecool.com/uploads/mirrordir/Sturmgeist89.htm Ph33rspace 18:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Damn, it's down now. Sorry folks. Ph33rspace 23:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Manifesto

The link with his manifesto is down now, bit i did copy of it before (finnish version). I dont know is it right to put it up again for wikipedia entry...? Pretty crazy manifesto if u ask me...

I asked at the admin noticeboard, I have it in English too, as well as an "attack info" file and the video, plus some pics. Jackaranga 14:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Also wikipedia doesn't allow the reproduction of copyrighted text, so I'm waiting to see what they say about this. Jackaranga 14:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I have the full 'media pack' he released prior to the shootings, with the video of him practicing with the gun in the woods, his manifesto and a few other small text files in both English and Finnish, and several pictures of him. I don't think it's necessary to include any of them (except for maybe the pictures but I'm not sure if we can use those or not legally) in the article though. Ennuified 21:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Any answer from admin? Part of the manifesto certainly give insight into his teenage troubled mind and revolt (There is also another solution to the problem: stupid people as slaves and intelligent people as free.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by YegLi (talk • contribs) 23:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I am noting the Wikipedia entry for Unabomber does NOT have it's manifesto, only talks about it (Summary, Psychological Analysis, ...). YegLi 23:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it does in fact have his entire manifesto, linked to a copy that resides in Wikisource - [[2]] - Ageekgal 04:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture

I added the picture of him from this video cited in the sources, feel free to make it smaller - [3] DBAlex 14:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You didn't provide a fair-use rationale, it could be deleted when someone notices. Jackaranga 14:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I know, I didn't know which rationale to use, Its a screen capture from a video, I felt Movie was the fairest rationale, if you beg to differ feel free to re-upload the file with a different licence 82.31.36.226 15:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC) EDIT: above comment was me DBAlex 15:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not talking about the license tag, I'm talking about the Fair use rationale. Jackaranga 15:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, ive filled in a template of the Fair-Use rationale, I am a new user, what information does the "Portion" and "replaceability" section want? Please check the template so far and tell me if its ok DBAlex 15:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you should seriously consider removing the picture. If I was one of the victims' relatives, I think I would find it horrible and maybe also offensive. Just my opinion. --7swords 18:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Feelings of people involved with the case should NOT go ahead of showing facts (which Wikipedia is all about). -91.152.192.37 18:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

So what IS the fact in that picture? It's NOT directly related to the incident. You don't know if the gun is the one he used in the shooting. It's just (as Ypps says) a terrible eye-catcher. And above all, you can't even recognize the guy too well. --7swords 20:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The picture itself is fact. It's an image showing the appearance of the killer and I think that's pretty relevant. Your original opinion was that the picture is offensive and should thus be deleted and I oppose that kind of thinking. However it's OK to change the picture if there is a better one available but bottom line is that a picture of the man should be included. -91.152.192.37 02:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest removal because it contains a (psuedo)-ideological/political message that has not been proven to be relevant to the shooting (although the perpetrator would have us think so). In my opinion it puts the article's neutrality in doubt. It is also an eye-catcher because of the gun, which draws attention from the subject of the article. Ypps 19:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The (psuedo)-ideological/political message is relevant as mentioned in his manifesto, representative of his "way of thinking" (about humanity). I do agree that the gun is too much. YegLi 23:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It may turn out that you are right about the relevance of his manifesto. The problem that I see with the picture is that it can be interpreted by a reader to provide some kind of explanation to the shooting. But the truth is of course that there is no proper explanation available (at least not yet). Ypps 01:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I found a 'better' picture of Auvinen, but I'm not quite sure if it can be used. See here Essesense 20:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Main picture

I've replaced the picture of the perpetrator - let's not give this (alleged) monster any more publicity than we have to, please. 199.71.183.2 17:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I had to revert it. This is because if people look at the image of policies, they don't really get any sense, what is it about. Like, it would be just another police scene, and not going to be that interesting. The photo of the person is certainly the best picture we have up to this far. ~Iceshark7 17:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

And publishing a picture of a guy with a gun gives us a better idea? Let's think about this from a real life point of view - do you really want to be the one giving someone like this publicity, just because of what they've done? Please find a better picture if you don't like the police one. 199.71.183.2 17:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I never said I didn't like the picture. Only that I think it's not really going to tell about the subject, if there are "just" polices on the scene.

However, I like the arragnment now, having the picture of the killer in a lower left corner. And if we can find a free image of the Jokela School, then it's going to be the best picture in the info box. ~Iceshark7 17:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of images of the killer, without the weapon posing. [4], [5]. --Pudeo⺮ 17:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but, it is not right to use an image that had been supplied by the perpetrator for his own self-gratification, I prefer the image that is used now, those other images show the perpetrator in a pseudo-positive/normal view. We could allways edit the image to hide the gun, would this be censorship though? Your thoughts please everyone. --82.31.36.226 22:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC) [DBAlex - Not logged in]

I uploaded a photo that has gotten a lot of internet circulation. I welcome scrutiny of my fair-use rationale. As to using a portrait versus a screenshot to headline the article, I looked at Seung-Hui Cho before deciding. Until there's a free image of the school, a plain photo is the most neutral. The actions speak for themselves as being abnormal.--chaser - t 23:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

His pic#10 (media package) has the same shirt without the gun, best choice IMHO. #6 and 7 looks like school pics (but (c)?), 8 and 9 looks too "good boy". YegLi 23:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

'Too good boy'? We're not producing a press release or a modelling portfolio here; it's supposed to be an encyclopaedia! Is which picture is most 'appropriate' really the biggest issue here? Smurfmeister 12:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Front page ?

Should this page be placed to the front page, as top news? --Eis 14:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion yes, I was shocked not to see it there in the first place. DBAlex 15:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It's there now. I got no replies on WP:ITN/C, but I went ahead and added it myself. Prolog 16:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

His cached Youtube page is HERE: youtube profile —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chueyjoo (talk • contribs) 15:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Media package

Pekka-Eric Auvinen posted a media package into Rapidshare couple of hours before school shooting occurred. He updated his Youtube profile and IRC-Galleria profile today before massacre and added link to media package. One of the mirrors here: http://www.kimmo.org/jokela/puretut/ (for example Manifesto of Pekka-Eric Auvinen (DOC file)). --Z10x 15:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I put a link to the page just stating he released the media package, but no further changes should be made until they officially tell if he is the shooter or not. Synked 16:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, thankyou for the clarification --DBAlex 16:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The media package link up there now gave a 'corrupt ZIP file error'. Pulseczar 14:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

YouTube account information page

This piece of text is constantly kept added into the article and then removed. It is edit warring and some may have broken the WP:3RR rule. I've created the text under a new header and marked it as unsourced plus marked it's notability as disputed.

Is this really necessary for the article? In my opinion, the text itself is not notable, but more like a source for information about the plans of the killers. ~Iceshark7 16:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a reason for the entire text to be quoted on this article as the text already mentions the jist of it. If someone wants to read the entire thing there are caches of the YouTube site and it's in the media package. Synked 16:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I've now requested a full protection to the article for 1 hour at WP:RPP because of the edit warring of this piece of text. So that the article won't get out of control - now it's almost impossible to edit the article because of the massive speed of editing, including minor vandalism which also seems to occur... ~Iceshark7 16:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I updated this section with the correct updated version, it seems someone decided to use the in-correct google cache version --DBAlex 16:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

And know it got deleted AGAIN - please stop this stupid edit war --DBAlex 16:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The time of the attack in the article appears to be in error - 11:40 p.m. local time cannot be right as no one is at school at that time; must be 11:40 a.m.--81.101.253.108 18:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Suicide

Usually people kill themseleves after doing things like this? Is there any information on if he did the same? - .:. Jigsy .:. 16:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he shot himself in the head. He's in hospital, and will likely die. -Victor Chmara 16:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you he will die? 78.148.107.210 16:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

According to media and police he is braindead. --Z10x 16:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It is also in the news (e.g. here: [6] (Finnish News Agency bulletin) --MoRsE 16:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Although most people here don't know the Finnish language. I can't understand anything in that link.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 16:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Just saw on Uutiset(Which is finnish news on swedish channels) that he is injured but they did not state if it was a head injury.Synked 16:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

MoRsE's link is in Swedish, not Finnish. --88.114.238.161 18:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I am translating the Finnish News Agency bulletin for you:

"The perpetrator shot himself in the head

Seven students and one grownup woman were killed in the school massacre in Jokela, the Police says. The woman was the principal of the school.

The perpetrator shot himself in the head and is under intensive care at the Töölö Hospital. The man is in critical condition and is not expected to survive.

Five of the killed were boys, two were girls. More than ten wounded are at the hospital. (STT) STT" --MoRsE 16:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

3 attackers?

At least one eyewithnes claims seeing 2 unknown gunmen with Auvinen. According to eyewithnes Auvinen held few students as hostages after police had arrived. Yle uutiset —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.10.111 (talk) 17:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Police said nothing about other shooters, so it's probably just imagination and confusion. --88.112.23.15 17:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Article title?

Maybe this article title should be "Jokela school massacre" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kekeruusperi (talk • contribs) 17:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

That is, how the killer calls the scene as. In public, "shooting" might be a more appropriate for this scene, as it involved more shooting rather than a complete massacre. ~Iceshark7 17:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Mass Murder

Should this be listed as mass murder? Although a terrible tragedy, I consider Hitler's actions a better exemplar of mass murder - this seems more like spree killing.--Vince | Talk 18:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

You have a good point... It is often called as a "mass murder" because everyone is feeling so tragedic about it at the moment. I'd remove the statement. ~Iceshark7 18:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at our article on mass murder, it would appear that this qualifies.

"...the term "mass murder" refers to the killing of several people at the same time or not at the same time. Examples would include shooting several people in the course of a robbery..."

Columbine and Virginia Tech are also specifically mentioned. --Onorem♠Dil 18:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The shooter admired the Columbine massacre: video (eyewitness / school mate video). Should this fact be added to the article? --Siipikarja ♫ 20:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Headmistress

I changed the word "headmaster" to "headmistress" as per victim's gender (see e.g. [7]). --Jopo 20:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

inspiration: hitler and stalin

source for this in iltasanomat, in Finnish: http://iltasanomat.fi/Uutiset/stadi/uutinen.asp?id=1452495 - Hän palvoi Stalinia ja kommunismia sekä oli kiinnostunut uusnatseista. translated: He worshipped Stalin and communism and was interested of neo nazis.

I canot read finish, but I hope they have good references. His manifesto point to the contrary. Under Collective Deindividualization: [...]This phenomenon has been familiar in all despotic, authoritarian, totalitarian, monarchist, communist, socialist, nazi, fascist and religious societies troughout history. and under Total War Against Humanity: We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. YegLi 23:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

seems like the iltasanomat quote was some hearsay, whereas primary source tells the opposite. I'd still love to find some secondary source on this matter. Most of the news articles don't exhibit him as fancying the nazi/stalinistic ideas, so perhaps that is just editor's own POV. Santtus 00:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ilta-Sanomat is not a reliable source. I'm not at all surprised by this BS. --213.216.199.22 00:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone verified the claim that he was a poster on a popular English-language imageboard before his attacks? If he posted a message there, it's quite possible that he frequented that site. The post in question features his image and a short threat mentioning the name of the school and is dated 06:56am est. I'm not sure if the timing lines up quite right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.233.90 (talk) 02:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Funny how he would be a worshipper of communism and neo nazism when they are both idealogically opposite to one another. ArdClose 12:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Helsingin sanomat: Mies kertoi nettiteksteissään olevansa kiinnostunut historiasta ja filosofiasta. Koulun historiantunneilla häntä olivat tiettävästi kiinnostaneet etenkin ääriliikkeet sekä oikealta että vasemmalta laidalta. Koulussa hän menestyi tiettävästi hyvin.

Translated: The man wrote in the web to have been interested in history and philosophy. In the school history lessons, he presumably expressed interest in both left- and right-wing extreme movements. He apparently fared well in school. [8]. Translation is my own. Judging from other writings, he loathed the dictatorships, but judged that being enslaved was a fitting fate for the dumb masses. Perhaps he liked any movements that killed a lot of people and exhibited general hate for the mankind? 62.220.237.74 14:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Seems I forgot to log in; Santtus 14:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If anyone wish to do a web-search, he used numerous alias, here is a quote from is documents (media package): Perpetrator’s name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen (aka NaturalSelector89, Natural Selector, Sturmgeist89 and Sturmgeist). I also use pseydonym Eric von Auffoin internationally.[sic] IMHO perhaps this could wait until he gets his own page, last time I checked it was redirected to the shooting page. His manifesto (and perhaps web presence findings) certainly grants a page, again IMHO.

Shooter picture

It is irresponsible editorial policy to post image of criminal in such a provocative fashion. Thought must be given to the possible social effects of that action. Haiduc 23:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

What is provocative about this and what social effects are you referring to? We have smiling yearbook photos headlining the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold article and no free images of the school yet exist. About the only alternative headling picture is a map showing where Tuusula is in Finland.--chaser - t 23:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

We wouldn't think twice about posting a picture of Hitler in uniform giving a Nazi salute. It would express his life accurately. It might be offensive to many people, but the picture of the perp with the gun and the ridiculous tee shirt are indicative of his ethos and his insanity. What's the point of censoring it? An encyclopedia exists to present information, no matter how offensive, not to suppress it. That's a political agenda, maybe even a legitimate one, but would be wrong here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.247.73 (talk) 01:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The image Jokela-school-shooter.jpg has nothing to do with the shooting so I've removed it from the article. --Pixelface 04:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't think the shooter, posing a bit before the murders, has nothing to do with his shootings? --88.114.238.161 04:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It has everything to do with the shooting. They're calling this guy the "YouTube killer" in the press [9] [10] and major media outlets have the exact same image.--chaser - t 04:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Auvinen posing in a YouTube video has nothing to do with the actual shooting. It's fine if people use YouTube as a soapbox, but Wikipedia is not a soapbox. --Pixelface 04:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This image was nominated for deletion, and it was kept unanimously. Archived discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 November 7#Image:Jokela-school-shooter.jpg. Prolog 04:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The arguments to keep in the IFD seemed to focus mainly on YouTube and ignored two criteria for non-free content: No free equivalent and Significance. Does the image significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic? I don't think it does. Personally I think the IFD was closed prematurely. And since the video is no longer available on YouTube, I have to wonder about the source of the image that User:DBAlex uploaded. --Pixelface 04:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You can take it to DRV if you think the discussion was not closed appropriately. The image is significant for the reasons stated in the fair use rationale and by participants in the IFD. There is no free equivalent, because Auvinen is dead and his home videos are all copyrighted. The YouTube thing is not an issue for the reason I stated in the IFD. Prolog 04:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

We can't find an image of his corpse? --Pixelface 05:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed his corpse would be much more appropriate!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil Ian Manning (talk • contribs) 05:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

See my reply here Essesense 20:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"Vice-deputy"

The term makes perfect sense: the backup ("vice") for a member of an organization ("deputy"), in this case the municipal city council. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IceKarma (talk • contribs) 03:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The number of injured sentence...

The incident resulted in deaths of nine people: six students (five male and one female), the school principal, the school nurse and the shooter himself.

The above sentence in the article makes it sound like the shooter was not a student. I think it should be changed somehow to be included with the students part, as in (seven students (including the shooter himself), ...Trevor "Tinkleheimer" Haworth 06:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps changing students to classmates would do it? 68.175.118.95 08:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, "classmates" is much too colloquial (and too cheerful), and also indicates that they were, in fact, from the same class, and I don't think we know this for sure. I believe the correct term should be "pupils", as they were (as far as I understand) in compulsory education. If they were in "higher education" (university equivalent), the correct term would be "students". I changed the sentence to "The incident resulted in the deaths of nine people: five male pupils and one female pupil; the school principal; the school nurse; and the shooter himself, who was also one of the school's pupils". Not perfect, but a bit closer, I think. WikiCou 20:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That works.--Trevor "Tinkleheimer" Haworth 08:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

About the date...

I added the info about this tragedy occurring 90 years after the October Revolution, and also added that it was "close to 9/11." However, the latter was removed... Why? Doesn't it sound like he might've done this purposely, noting the date, 7/11? --Xfa

Find a source that says it. Speculative information like that needs a source.--chaser - t 19:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it does not sound anything like that. Why? Because 9/11 means September 11th (Middle endian date format, used in North America), and the date of this shooting was the 7th of November. WikiCou 19:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Date of YouTube bannings?

Can anyone help document the specific dates that the shooter was banned from using YouTube? I think he got banned twice, with the second one occurring in October. It would be helpful to look at those events and see if they relate to the purchase of the gun and the anger in the killer's videos. Some experts believe setting restrictions on computer use (even if appropriate) can trigger an outburst of rage... and school shootings. Also, anyone got a count on the number of youtube videos he made and in what period of time? I thought there were something like 60-70 of them but I may have been reading the (cached) youtube page wrong. ZookieByTheSea 18:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Auvinen

The name Auvinen is not introduced until the last paragraph of the "timeline" section. It should be made explicit that he is the shooter somewhere earlier in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MeltySno (talk • contribs) 20:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)