Talk:Ed Miliband

March for the Alternative

We can't disregard things in the Daily Telegraph because it is "right-wing" - it is a WP:RS. However there is also a source from The Independent and it was clearly a topic on the BBC Politics Show. NBeale (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

And John Rentoul in the Independent says "To compare a political disagreement over the pace of balancing the Government's books to the struggles of the suffragettes, civil rights movement and anti-apartheid campaigners was an analogy too far. And to quote Martin Luther King opened him to ridicule." NBeale (talk) 19:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Martin Luther Miliband

With the FT calling him as Martin Luther Miliband I'm tempted to write "criticized and mocked", but at least we can get rid of "by some". And pace Off2RioRob, citing an article by a critic/opponent of a politician in a WP:RS is perfectly reasonable to demonstrate that he "has been criticised". We can't censor Ed M's opponents any more than David Cameron's NBeale (talk) 05:03, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

A bit of satire in the FT is not enough to support the statement and a rival politician sounding off is never counted. Agree with Off2RioRob here --Snowded ^TALK 05:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Well satire in the FT is certainly evidence that someone is satirised! And since when has criticism by a rival politican not been notable - and why not? Shall I remove all criticism of David Cameron by rival politicians?NBeale (talk) 06:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

While the immediate reaction to Miliband's OTT speech may get into serious sources, is it likely to stay there? I suspect not. If he makes a habit of this sort of thing, it may have long-term significance, but it looks to me like one of those stories that everyone but the anti-Miliband spin-doctors will have forgotten in a week or so. So no, it shows little sign of lasting notability, which should be the standard we set. As for criticisms of Cameron, the proper place to discus that is on that article's talk page, not here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Nbeale is at it again with the partisan attack additions - I have removed his addition again. Off2riorob (talk) 10:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not "partisan attack" - the FT is if anything rather labour-leaning. And now that the Telegraph has also picked this up it is has two solid reliable sources, quite apart from several other reports (eg the 3rd ref) NBeale (talk) 12:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC) + the Economist with a very similar take. NBeale (talk) 12:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is, it a valueless attack addition - left leaning right leaning is irrelevent, imo you would do better not to edit this BLPyou clkearly are simply wanting to add attack content. Off2riorob (talk)

If something is commented on by the FT, the Telegraph and the Economist it is not "attack content" or "irrelevent" (or even irrelevant) but a serious point that is worth recording. What do other people think? NBeale (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Whats serious point about it? Its attacking name calling and ridicule. Off2riorob (talk) 14:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It's a one-off epithet that will be forgotten in a week or two. If "Martin Luther Miliband" sticks as a nickname for the long term (like Iron Lady), fine, we include it. But at present it's just a passing bandwagon. So I exclude it on those grounds - nothing to do with whether it says something good or bad about Miliband, whether it's praise or attack. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 15:04, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Good point - I basically agree. I don't think we should wait a year to see how it goes, but we should probably see over the next few weeks whether this this theme develops further or dies down. Then we can make a judgement. NBeale (talk) 16:12, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Personal Life info

Not sure if this the place to point it out, but it keeps getting edited - Miliband and Thornton were enaged in March of 2010, not March 2011. It's mentioned in the Doncaster interview, and quite a few articles - they only publically declared their engagement in 2011. This keeps getting changed, possibly becasue it's assumed to be a typo? 86.135.162.73 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC).

If the sources in the article support the earlier date, and the sources are reliable, then the earlier date should be supported. If there are no sources, then feel free to add some!--Topperfalkon (talk) 21:34, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity in infobox

Can AndytheGrump explain why he is trying to remove Miliband's ethnicity from the infobox? His edit states there is some sort of consensus regarding this, but I only see a discussion in the archives regarding Categories, and no consensus even there. This would also be relevant:

• "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense". "Ed Miliband reveals agenda for power with Labour... and a personal insight", Evening Standard, 31 August 2010.
• "My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am". "Ed Miliband: Hamas, Ken Livingstone and Jewish values", The Jewish Chronicle, November 4, 2010.

Jayjg ^(talk) 03:26, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, it's inaccurate as it makes the attempt to label him as claiming only Jewish ethnicity. Secondly, there is no WP:RS source here. We had a lengthy discussion about this that included administrator intervention on more than one occasion. Yes, the consensus applied to what was in the cats at the time, but this is no more than an attempt to plant exactly the same thing, with no clarification, to the infobox. I'm removing again as per consensus. I will seek admin arbitration if this matter is forced again. We spent a good month or so discussing this back then and I don't see that anything has changed.--Topperfalkon (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

First, it's accurate, as he claims no other ethnicity. Second, there are at least two WP:RS cited above. Third, Categories are different from other article items precisely because Category items cannot be annotated, qualified or cited in any way. Fourth, there was no consensus even then, you merely outlasted those citing sources and policy. Unless you can come up with an actual consensus for removing this properly cited and accurate infobox item, I will restore it, despite your threats regarding arbitration. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

What about his Polish ethnicity? Are you going to make the claim based on one biased source and one non-explicit source that his Jewishness takes precedent to the other ethnic affiliations he can claim? The decision made in the last discussion regarding this was to leave out anything that would misleadingly put Ed in a particular 'box'. This was done in the face of a compromise I suggested that would have clarified Ed's Jewish ethnicity by simultaneously addressing his religious views, which was rejected. Part of the reason for this rejection was because neither inclusion of specific ethnic affiliation or religious beliefs in either infobox or categories added anything of significant worth to the article. It was also clearly leading to some confusion and dispute amongst editors. You were part of this discussion at the time, unless I am mistaken. I don't think your minor change in the approach to the addition of what is essentially the same as Category: British people of Jewish descent is going to be any more pleasing to other editors than that category was back then. So please just drop this. Or better yet, ask Ed Miliband in an interview that can be considered a reliable source to decisively state what he claims his ethnicity to be (as per the 2011 census for instance). In fact, ask him to publish his census form. Can't do better than that.--Topperfalkon (talk) 00:31, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, apparently someone added that category back in... Hmm.--Topperfalkon (talk) 00:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

1. He's not an ethnic Pole and never was, nor has he described himself as such, nor are there any sources that describe him that way. Ethnic Jews living in Poland were ethnic Jews, not ethnic Poles. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of ethnicity (particularly Jewish).
2. The sources themselves are an expert source and a completely explicit source. Both satisfy WP:RS. It is critical that you make more accurate Talk: page statements.
3. The discussion last time was about Categories, not infobox parameters, and there was no "decision" per se; you and a couple of others merely wore everyone else down by dint of constant repetition.
4. If you object to the infobox having the "ethnicity" parameter, then you should get it removed from the infobox template, rather than trying to extremely selectively trying to remove it from one article.
5. Of course we can "do better" than having him "publish his census form"; we can follow policy and report what he has explicitly and clearly stated.

Jayjg ^(talk) 00:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Erm, no. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of ethnicity, Jayjg. It is self-ascribed (by definition, otherwise it isn't 'ethnicity'), and if someone were to describe their ethnicity as Polish-Jewish, it would be entirely valid (see the UK Census 2011 for some good examples of self-asserted 'ethnicities': 'Asian British', 'Black Scottish' etc). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Erm, no. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of Jewish ethnicity, AndyTheGrump. Ethnicity may be somewhat of a cultural construct, but up until World War II (and indeed in some ways afterwards), Poles and Jews were generally peoples who had different places of origin, different languages, different religions, different foods, different cultures. And we have something much better than a UK Census; we have Miliband's own self-identification, in reliable secondary sources. Hypothesizing that he might want to claim some other ethnicity is, frankly, irrelevant to this discussion; we go by what he's actually said, not by what he might theoretically claim, according to an anonymous Wikipedia editor. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

In regards to the post that jumped in before I could revise my comment...

1. Ok, so maybe I'm not an expert on ethnicity, but given these concerns weren't addressed last time, it is remiss of you to not address that prior to making these edits. I am not the only editor that hasn't forgotten about the previous discussion.
2. Are you not going to address what is at least my perception of bias with one of your sources? I also thought that bias with that source was a factor in the dispute previously.
3. According to prior discussion, which I have linked below, it was made clear that policy regarding Categories applies to the infobox also, and there's no reason why it shouldn't either. Furthermore, you cannot wholly pin the resolution of that discussion down to me or those sharing my views. A group of editors sharing your views were responsible for inflaming that dispute in the first place, by insisting that false information be put in the infobox under the religion= parameter rather than the outright removal of the parameter which had by that point already been agreed as a resolution. Also in the prior discussion, it is clear that the disputed info was removed because neither Ed's ethnicity nor his religion is a factor in what makes him notable. The case that his ethnicity was a factor was made but found lacking at the time.
4. I do not outright object to its inclusion, but it's clear that fields and categories making bold categorisations are inevitably going to provide more editorial disputes than they provide encyclopaedic content. I have no objection to Ed's ethnicity being mentioned in the main text, as long as it is in the context of the source (and that the source can be believed to have extracted said information in proper context originally). I class religious beliefs and ethnicity among the things that I would not trust to bold categorisation. But I don't outright object to their inclusion to an extent that I would make the case for their removal. I would also, personally, get rid of large swathes of BLP categories too, but that's not an argument I have the time or energy to indulge in.
5. Would a census form not be more fulfilling of policy? It's a reliable source that removes the context from the equation specifically to better allow categorisation.

Anyway, I'm going to make this a whole lot simpler and refer you to the Talk:Ed Miliband/Archive 2#Category:British Jews, specifically the end of that section. Please tell me what has changed since that discussion. Because I am taking said discussion as the basis for a working consensus that was provided at the time the previous dispute occurred.--Topperfalkon (talk) 01:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

1. These concerns were addressed last time.
2. A claim that there is a consensus regarding the infobox is not a reality; again, there was no consensus in that discussion, but you (and AndytheGrump and a couple of others) simply wore down and outlasted everyone else.
3. If you don't like the infobox parameters (or categories) then deal with that issue. I'd be fine with them disappearing altogether too, but I won't abide selective removal of them, particularly when doing so directly contradicts the statements of the subject themselves.
4. No, a census form is a WP:PRIMARY document, and a private one, and it only allows for the categorizations that the census form makers think up. It's no-where near as good as the reliable secondary sources we have.
5. That discussion was regarding a category, didn't accord with policy or practice, and was merely the echo chamber of those who outlasted everyone else. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

We have from Miliband that he is Jewish. He says, "“Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense." I think the Infbox should not be making us decide between "Ethnicity: Jewish" and "Religion: Jewish". There should be a third possibility. A field should be created for "Religious identity". This should satisfy those trying to emphasize that Miliband is nonobservant as well as those trying to emphasize that Miliband is Jewish.

By the way the second half of that sentence only says that Miliband is nonobservant. He is not contradicting the first half of his sentence in the second half, or else, to paraphrase, he would be saying I'm Jewish, but I'm not Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 02:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps instead, "those trying to emphasize that Miliband is Jewish" should read WP:BLP, WP:NPOV etc, and take their 'emphasizing' elsewhere. In the arena where Miliband derives his notability - UK domestic politics - his ethnicity is almost entirely a non-issue. Only the usual crowd of ethno-boosters, and the occasional drive-by antisemite, seem to be overly concerned over this, and it would be a darned sight better if they all took their dubious opinions elsewhere. We don't need more fields in infoboxes, we need less arbitrary classification by POV-pushers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—I don't think it should matter whether Miliband's notability is related to his being Jewish, but it is not my opinion which matters, but rather that of reliable sources, many of which indicate that Miliband's Jewish identity is worthy of noting. What you are calling "arbitrary" ("we need less arbitrary classification") reliable sources are considering noteworthy. Bus stop (talk) 03:16, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop, will you please stop making endless edits to your posts - it makes replying without edit conflicts practically impossible.

I have nothing further to say to you in any case. You are here solely to push your usual 'Jew-tagging' agenda, as I think is blatently obvious to even a casual observer. As far as I am concerned, you are a real liability to the Wikipedia project, and should have been banned a long time ago. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:29, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump—you say that you have nothing further to say to me but at the same time you utilize a phrase like "Jew-tagging" in reference to me. Do you think I should not respond to that? You speak of "'Jew-tagging'". In your understanding is there a legitimate noting of Jewish identity in an article in which the subject of the BLP has stated that he is Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 03:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Go boil your head... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Bus stop, please respond to my comment at 01:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC) or don't bother pursuing this argument any further. I am now of the opinion that Wikipedians clearly cannot be trusted with making such sweeping categorisations of BLPs. I think I will take this case up to higher levels over the weekend, but I honestly don't want to waste more of my time on this.--Topperfalkon (talk) 12:09, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

• I think the comments -- and support for the comments -- to the effect that the subject's ethnicity should be reflected are far stronger than the counter-arguments. Though I was almost swayed by the "go boil your head" response. It is appropriate to reflect that he is Jewish.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Jayjg asked me to comment. It seems to me, based on cited sources, that Miliband considers himself Jewish, and that belongs in the article. As for "Polish Jewish", that is more of a sub-ethnicity of Jewish than part of Polish ethnicity. I've never heard of a Pole who considers Polish Jews to be ethnic Poles. And certainly there are sub-ethnicities within Jews, even within Ashkenazim, but I think that is generally hair-splitting that few except we Jews are ever concerned with.
    
    As for "Jew-tagging": I don't think I'm generally guilty of any such thing, but it seems to me that in any nation-state (or, in the case of the UK, multi-nation state: England, Scotland, Wales, and part of Ireland) it is notable when a prominent political figure has an ethnicity other than the one primarily identified with that state. - Jmabel | Talk 21:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

What you think is hardly relevant. The British people don't seem to consider it notable. Or have you got evidence from a reliable source that they do? Given the evident lack of coverage of the issue, I think that will be hard to find. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

What the editors on this page think is, in fact, somewhat relevant. It reflects what the consensus view is. And consensus is, perhaps, of some moment.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Wrong. You cannot overrule policy by 'consensus', particularly when the 'consensus' seems to have been drummed up by editors asking others "to comment". And can I remind people that the issue is whether Miliband's ethnicity should be mentioned in the infobox. The article body text makes clear his background, beliefs etc in what seems a reasonable manner. What has been objected to is placing "ethnicity: Jewish" in the infobox, on the simple basis that it places undue weight on something that is of no significance to his career in politics. This is the key issue. Miliband makes little of his ethnicity, at least in public. The British people do likewise. The only people that seem particularly interested in this issue are a faction of Wikipedia editors, several of whom are seemingly intent on tagging everyone they can find with any Jewish connections (or almost everyone, though I'll refrain from pointing out a recent case where an exception seems to have been made, as I think most of the 'faction' would disassociate themselves from that particular episode). To give any weight to a 'consensus' constructed largely from this faction would be a breach of a key Wikipedia policy: WP:NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Wrong. You cannot invent policy by personal fiat, particularly when many of those inventing policy appear to be unaware of actual policy, and completely in the dark regarding the subject at hand, Jewish ethnicity. A spurious appeal to authority of "the British people" carries no weight when it comes to discussions regarding the content of Wikipedia articles. The only people that seem particularly interested in this issue are a faction of Wikipedia editors, several of whom are seemingly intent on removing everyone they can find with any Jewish connections. To give any weight to a 'consensus' constructed largely from this faction would be a breach of a key Wikipedia policy: WP:NPOV. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The suggestion that I am "seemingly intent on removing everyone [I] can find with any Jewish connections" is a gross slur. It is self-evident that I am attempting nothing of the sort, and am instead 'intent' on seeing Wikipedia treat people equally, regardless of their (supposed) ethnicity. I suggest you withdraw this serious breach of WP:NPA immediately. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Andy -- the consensus as to what NPOV policy requires here is at odds with your personal point of view, and the consensus as to policy trumps your POV. As to your seeming intent -- that's perhaps a discussion more appropriate for another forum; I'm not familiar enough with your edits--but I think for this discussion we can avoid going there.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:23, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

And by the way, in the future, if you want your arguments to carry any weight, please make non-spurious arguments; that means discussing sources and policy, not your theories about "the British people", or claiming you somehow have the inside track on actual policy and are the only one following it, or adding various ad hominem and wildly inaccurate screeds about other editors and mythical "factions". Your arguments would also improve (and be taken more seriously) if you stopped telling people to boil their heads. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:42, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

So nobody is going to come up with any evidence that Miliband's ethnicity is notable to anyone but this faction entirely conicidental confluence of contributors? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me he is "non-observant Jewish", not Polish jewish. Kittybrewster ☎ 22:58, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The two are not mutually exclusive. Then again, neither would be notable unless demonstrated to be so by reliable sources. There is little doubt that Miliband considers himself ethnically Jewish (amongst other things), that isn't the issue. This discussion is supposed to be about whether it it is appropriate to include this in an infobox. I note that neither Diane Abbott nor Khalid Mahmood to pick a couple of random examples from the (sadly small) number of 'minority ethnicity' MPs have this dubious distinction. Can anyone explain where exactly this is justified in policy? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:13, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

<Miliband's Ethnicity is of no interest to me but it has been a feature of comment in many WP:RSs for example The Independent [1], the Jewish Chronicle [2] and The Scotsman [3] so I guess we should have it in. NBeale (talk) 06:27, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

The Independant article is clearly not about Miliband's ethnicity as such. The Jewish Chronicle merely notes that he is Jewish, but makes no other comment on the significance of his ethnicity. The Scotsman article uses the word 'Jewish' precisely once - in the headline. I think these three articles actually support my argument - that Miliband's ethnicity is of little or no consequence to his political career. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:15, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Balancing Ed's positive comments/spin

It's all very well quoting the subject saying Labour is "on its way back to power" (with no evidence) but we should also balance it with the facts that a pro-Labour paper is reporting (also picked up in "labour Briefing" [4] and those from a respected polling organisation. NBeale (talk) 17:11, 27 May 2011 (UTC)