User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions
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:There's a bunch of other stuff, but I think that the issue continues to be that we must never allow anyone who ''self-identifies'' as 12 or under to publish any information, or edit under a username, that could be used to track that person in real life. Which ''de facto'' we do now. So I'm not seeing anything to worry about. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 03:55, 26 October 2012 (UTC) |
:There's a bunch of other stuff, but I think that the issue continues to be that we must never allow anyone who ''self-identifies'' as 12 or under to publish any information, or edit under a username, that could be used to track that person in real life. Which ''de facto'' we do now. So I'm not seeing anything to worry about. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 03:55, 26 October 2012 (UTC) |
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==Possibility of admin abuse== |
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Hi, sorry to disturb you with this, but I consider that you are supreme authority in Wikipedia and that only you can solve this problem (if you have free time and will to do it, of course). |
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You should see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Request_concerning_Antidiskriminator |
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There is an long term dispute of two Croatian users (DIREKTOR and Peacemaker67) with various Serbian users about Serbia-related topics and admins involved in this always impose topic bans for Serbia related topics to Serbian users (myself included), while two Croatian users are allowed to write about Serbia what ever they want. So I think that admins involved in this (and same admins are always involved) are biased and that they favor Croatian side. Due to history of bad relations between Serbs and Croats, it is unbelievable that one can think that Croatian users are always correct and NPOV when they write about Serbia and that all Serbian users who oppose them are always wrong. |
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So, it would be nice that you check is there admin abuse in this case and to check are these admins biased or incompetent to deal with this situation. Thank you very much. [[User:PANONIAN|<font color="blue">'''PANONIAN'''</font>]] 05:47, 26 October 2012 (UTC) |
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Gibraltar, again
I think it is clear that there should be a strong moratorium on any Gibraltar-related DYKs on the front page of Wikipedia. I would recommend a total ban on them for 5 years, but that might be too extreme. I support that we get wider community attention on the issue.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The hooks were resumed after this discussion. User:Prioryman apparently began the discussion the day after he returned from a meeting in Gibraltar. Another discussion begun at WT:DYK a couple of days ago, Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#How_do_we_stop_the_Gibraltar_DYKs?, has so far not yielded a result. So we have had 6 DYK hooks in the last six days, and at the time of writing we have another 14 lined up here. At this rate, we will have had 20 Gibraltar DYK hooks in October; this after the Telegraph reported you as saying you thought 17 Gibraltar hooks in August were "absurd". In fact, after all the media hubbub, we are now having more Gibraltar DYK hooks than ever, all in line with the marketing philosophy outlined in the Wikimedia UK presentation about "Improving a city's Google position on the web", complete with its explanation of the use of the Wikipedia main page at time code 12.22. It seems to be remarkably easy for a small number of individuals to hijack the Wikipedia main page for their own purposes. AndreasKolbe JN466 09:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
If there was an abuse, there should be ban. If there is a road for abuse, there should be policy. Staszek Lem (talk) 15:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
And while we speak, there is another Gibraltar DYK on the main pageIt's "Did you know ... that North Front Cemetery in Gibraltar is the burial site of Victoria Cross recipient Thomas Henry Kavanagh? AndreasKolbe JN466 21:06, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
What is DYK for?DYK is supposed to encourage the creation of new articles. It is quite apparent that the Gibraltarpedia competition in itself, offering the winner a free trip to Gibraltar and other prizes, along with Prioryman (talk · contribs)'s energetic hectoring, already does a pretty good job at encouraging the creation of new articles about Gibraltar. Why do these articles then also have to run on the main page, essentially telling the world, "If you want to have 100 articles on XYZ products on the front page, just start a DYK competition and offer the winner a Mercedes?" What the fuck is this project coming to? Has everybody suddenly sold out? It might be worth installing as a more general principle that when there is a competition offering a significant prize for new material, then these articles should not also qualify for DYK. We should ask ourselves whether Wikipedia should even entertain such competitions. (My personal answer would be a resounding No.) But at any rate, given that we have such a competition, an editor who registers his articles with a competition like that seems sufficiently incentivised to create new articles for the sponsors already, and does not need the DYK incentive on top of that. And Wikipedia does not need its front page tainted by sponsors' agendas. AndreasKolbe JN466 13:55, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
A Modest ProposalWell someone is finally getting closer to hitting the nail the head (see post above by Wnt.) Assuming that this sort of thing is going to continue and grow -- a fair assumption, I would say, given that there's no mechanism to stop it -- then it makes no sense for the Foundation to allow the profits to go to third parties. Right? This money should be going to the Foundation. Why should I -- or anyone -- give up pizza night to donate to the Foundation while third parties are jetting around the world and eating steak dinners on their Wikipedia profits? What I suggest is simply that the Foundation itself directly offer DYK space to the highest bidders. Article creation, article column inches, GA and FA status could also be offered on a bidding basis. The big seller though, I think, would be for the Foundation itself to offer to ensure that a given entity's articles remain NPOV, with the definition of NPOV being provided by the entity buying the rights. As to who would do the actual work, no problem -- there are plenty of folks here willing to help out the Foundation for free, or the Foundation could scatter 10% of its fees to some poor but willing editors. Thinking even further outside the box -- we could raise funds by doing no work at all, with a simple article protection service, e.g. messages could out far and wide to this effect:
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has thought of that business model. Why should we wait for the Mob to steal our bacon? We need to be proactive, here. He not busy being born is busy dying. Herostratus (talk) 16:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Salon article"Having commissioned articles on Wikipedia dilutes one of the last respites from commercialization on the Internet. Perhaps worse, these commissioned endorsements are hidden by the guise of pure encyclopedic information." Good article, well worth reading. It doesn't mention Gibraltarpedia, but it does spell out what has been lost here. AndreasKolbe JN466 23:19, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
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I've started another discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know#Gibraltar, again, and have posted links to it at the Village Pump and at AN, as well as a note to WP:CENT. AndreasKolbe JN466 15:10, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Commons is still broken - a reminder
Jimbo, do you recall User:Beta M? Beta M was globally banned after it was revealed on Commons that the user had been convicted of distributing child porn but several members of the Commons community (including admins) argued strenuously against banning him on Commons. With that in mind, please take a look at this deletion discussion for File:Alexander Ahimsa - Silly Kids in Toronto - 14 Fucking in the Stairwell.jpeg. The file was uploaded by User:Max Rebo Band User:Handcuffed, a prolific contributor of sexually-related content. At this point Commons admins User:Cirt and User:Mattbuck have predictably weighed in with "keep" votes and spurious arguments about the importance of these blurry snapshots. The origin of this image? A porn website run by none other than Beta M. Is it time to pull the plug? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Keep - easily the most useful doggy-style photos we have, in that it shows more than just genitalia." from User:Mattbuck
- "Keep, certainly unique in depiction for position discussion and multiple angular figure display" - from User:Cirt.
- News flash - these two editors (admins! no less) are essentially trolling Commons. How else can one make sense of "rationales" as ridiculous, idiotic and absurd as these?
- As the kids say "you can't make this stuff up". Volunteer Marek 23:30, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- En Wiki users should stop uploading anything to Commons - I did ages ago - its out of project scope control - do not move anything from here to there - add - not commons/keep local to anything you upload here and tell all your friends to do the same - Youreallycan 23:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just because one discussion didn't go your way doesn't mean the whole project should be scrapped. Wikipedia has a lot of broken discussions too, if "me not agreeing with it" is a criterion. Traditionally, you're supposed to vote in these things if you have an opinion about it. Looking briefly at the picture, I don't see anything obviously interesting about it - it might run afoul of the Commons policy against "uploading random snapshots of you and your friends" unless there's some educational angle. But so? There's going to be some slop in AfD discussions voted by random volunteers, and its best if the errors are more often toward the keeping of material. If you don't vote now I suppose you'll end up nominating it again. Wnt (talk) 00:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wnt, I have no idea to whom your remarks are addressed, or what "one discussion" you are talking about, but you're adding nothing useful to this discussion. In fact, I cannot recall an occasion on which you ever added anything useful to a discussion. Please stop trolling on Jimbo's talk page. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wnt - Random, Slop, and Errors are three words that stick out in your post - Youreallycan 00:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- User:Mattbuckis a disgrace to the project. No wonder with such administrators Commons is rapidly becoming a free porno site.--67.169.11.52 (talk) 00:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yay I'm famous! As for my comment, I stand by it - it is important to have photos of things, not just drawings and Grecian urns of them. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- How about photos where you know the people are of age, and happy for Wikimedia to host their image? Is that too much to ask? AndreasKolbe JN466 15:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yay I'm famous! As for my comment, I stand by it - it is important to have photos of things, not just drawings and Grecian urns of them. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- User:Mattbuckis a disgrace to the project. No wonder with such administrators Commons is rapidly becoming a free porno site.--67.169.11.52 (talk) 00:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wnt - Random, Slop, and Errors are three words that stick out in your post - Youreallycan 00:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wnt, I have no idea to whom your remarks are addressed, or what "one discussion" you are talking about, but you're adding nothing useful to this discussion. In fact, I cannot recall an occasion on which you ever added anything useful to a discussion. Please stop trolling on Jimbo's talk page. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ahh yes, It has been a while since there was some really good crying about Commons, hasn't there? Please, do me the favour and don't presume to tell me which of Wikimedia's other projects I should or should not participate in. Resolute 00:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just because one discussion didn't go your way doesn't mean the whole project should be scrapped. Wikipedia has a lot of broken discussions too, if "me not agreeing with it" is a criterion. Traditionally, you're supposed to vote in these things if you have an opinion about it. Looking briefly at the picture, I don't see anything obviously interesting about it - it might run afoul of the Commons policy against "uploading random snapshots of you and your friends" unless there's some educational angle. But so? There's going to be some slop in AfD discussions voted by random volunteers, and its best if the errors are more often toward the keeping of material. If you don't vote now I suppose you'll end up nominating it again. Wnt (talk) 00:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- En Wiki users should stop uploading anything to Commons - I did ages ago - its out of project scope control - do not move anything from here to there - add - not commons/keep local to anything you upload here and tell all your friends to do the same - Youreallycan 23:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't quite understand this, starting off with a story of some pedophile that "some" people at Commons thought should be unbanned in a plainly obvious attempt to poison the well then going off on another "OMG COMMONS HAS PORNO!" rant, it's pretty clear that Commons has a different mandate than Wikipedia, and just because it's not used in Wikipedia doesn't mean it shouldn't be on Commons. We also have this inconvenient rule WP:NOTCENSORED. There are some reasons why we shouldn't host an image, and maybe some good logical reasons why this particular image shouldn't be hosted (For one the guy looks like he's underage, and engaged in a sex act, and the image filename seems to indicate that too). But just saying it's "Out of Scope" or "Not used in Wikipedia" isn't a good enough reason for deleting on Commons. — raekyt 00:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- What about http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikilegal/Age_Record_Requirement ? This image comes from the website of a convicted child porn distributor. Do you know these people are 18? Do you know whether they both consented to the upload, or are even aware of it? Do you care? AndreasKolbe JN466 01:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not an authority on trying to estimate ages, but if you think that image is child porn, by all means, you should send mail to the Foundation and get immediate action to purge it entirely from the servers, not wait a month for an AfD to restrict it in the admins' private porno stash. But I very much doubt this is true. The site owner is fairly irrelevant - any Flickr uploader could be a pedophile, and the site owner is probably not the uploader. And it has nothing to do with the general "porn on Commons" issue. Wnt (talk) 01:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Clearly I said, that if there is an issue with underage, then it shouldn't even be a matter for debate if it should be deleted, but I didn't see that arguement in the deletion reasoning... If they're even PRESUMED to be MAYBE underage, it shouldn't even be a mater of debate, always better to be safe than sorry. As for "consent" if they're adults, I think that discussion has been had to death on Commons. — raekyt 01:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- What does that mean? Consent does not matter? What about http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Images_of_identifiable_people ? And why would people keep sexual images if they have no idea whether the people shown are overage or not? There is a reason why there is a legal age record requirement. Why should Wikimedia host files that lack any reliable age documentation? AndreasKolbe JN466 01:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Then a deletion case should be made on that grounds, they're clearly in a private place (although I think trespassing from the source page it came from) and engaged in a private act, even though it's clear they're aware they're being photographed. I'm pretty sure you'd have to fight an uphill battle to delete every image on Commons of people without written consent that was taken in a private place... Also the argument could be made here though that if they could just walk into the building and have sex in it, then it could be argued it's public because it's accessible by the general public. If it was in a bedroom, maybe a different story, but in a building's stairwell... probably public place. — raekyt 02:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- What does that mean? Consent does not matter? What about http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Images_of_identifiable_people ? And why would people keep sexual images if they have no idea whether the people shown are overage or not? There is a reason why there is a legal age record requirement. Why should Wikimedia host files that lack any reliable age documentation? AndreasKolbe JN466 01:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Everyone knows that Commons is chock full of porno - why would I waste my time pointing that out? The issue is not that we have enough porn images -- thank you very much -- but why we allow a small group of ideologues to stockpile still more porn images under the guise of NOTCENSORED™. "Out of scope" is a good enough reason for deleting images at Commons. I'm all for having a range of images that can be used to illustrate penis, but surely something has gone very wrong when we have over 1,000 penis images (according to a consultant's report to the WMF)? The connections between the failure to ban Beta M on Commons and deletion discussions about sexual imagery should be apparent to anyone who takes a look at the participants. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I meant it is worded as if to poison the well. I do agree that there comes a point when no more pictures of a penis would be helpful, but the line between Porn and Art isn't always clearly defined as is the line between uneducational and educational. I think it's a silly argument, if we have 100 or 1000 or a million images of penises it shouldn't really matter. It's if we accept that we can have penis pictures, then we should have them. There's an argument that Commons then shouldn't become "show the world your penis" website where every male uploads a picture of his package, but who draws the line of where "enough" is? — raekyt 01:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- That particular well is already toxic and I didn't make the connection spuriously. I accept that we should have penis pictures. We have penis pictures. We should not have an unlimited number of penis pictures. Asking where we should draw the line is a fair question, but it assumes that everyone agrees that there is a line. A small group of Commons editors and admins not only act as though there is no limit, they seem to be fighting the deletion of any sexual imagery as if each deleted image is an affront to free speech. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree that there is necessarily a line, I can agree that an argument, maybe even a good one, can be made for a line, but I can also see the converse being true. — raekyt 01:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I assume, DC, you are referring to people such as myself. I will have you know that I do, from time to time, nominate sexuality images for deletion, or vote against them at DR. But I am, pretty much, an inclusionist - if it might be useful, keep it. After all, deleting it won't save any space on the servers, since it's still visible, just not to non-admins. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Matt, while I have your attention, would you mind deleting, sorry, hiding from public view the images listed here and any other images by Axxelaxxel? I've just tagged another copyvio uploaded here by the same user (as User:Kaustubh 88). Thanks! Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Done -mattbuck (Talk) 17:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, Not done. I asked for all of their uploads to be deleted and made a point of doing so as well in the deletion discussion. You missed File:Circumcised penis - flaccid.jpg, File:Male anus close up.jpg, and File:Female perineal area.jpg. The underwear images were not only copyvios but at least one of them was altered in such a way as to make finding the source more difficult. The reasonable assumption is that any images uploaded by this user are copyvios. The sensible course of action would be a hard block of this user to prevent more sockpuppets uploading more copyvio material. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:48, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I deleted those as copyvios just now - Alison ❤ 04:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, Alison. I'm sure it was just an oversight on Matt's part. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I deleted those as copyvios just now - Alison ❤ 04:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, Not done. I asked for all of their uploads to be deleted and made a point of doing so as well in the deletion discussion. You missed File:Circumcised penis - flaccid.jpg, File:Male anus close up.jpg, and File:Female perineal area.jpg. The underwear images were not only copyvios but at least one of them was altered in such a way as to make finding the source more difficult. The reasonable assumption is that any images uploaded by this user are copyvios. The sensible course of action would be a hard block of this user to prevent more sockpuppets uploading more copyvio material. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:48, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Done -mattbuck (Talk) 17:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Matt, while I have your attention, would you mind deleting, sorry, hiding from public view the images listed here and any other images by Axxelaxxel? I've just tagged another copyvio uploaded here by the same user (as User:Kaustubh 88). Thanks! Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I assume, DC, you are referring to people such as myself. I will have you know that I do, from time to time, nominate sexuality images for deletion, or vote against them at DR. But I am, pretty much, an inclusionist - if it might be useful, keep it. After all, deleting it won't save any space on the servers, since it's still visible, just not to non-admins. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree that there is necessarily a line, I can agree that an argument, maybe even a good one, can be made for a line, but I can also see the converse being true. — raekyt 01:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- That particular well is already toxic and I didn't make the connection spuriously. I accept that we should have penis pictures. We have penis pictures. We should not have an unlimited number of penis pictures. Asking where we should draw the line is a fair question, but it assumes that everyone agrees that there is a line. A small group of Commons editors and admins not only act as though there is no limit, they seem to be fighting the deletion of any sexual imagery as if each deleted image is an affront to free speech. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I meant it is worded as if to poison the well. I do agree that there comes a point when no more pictures of a penis would be helpful, but the line between Porn and Art isn't always clearly defined as is the line between uneducational and educational. I think it's a silly argument, if we have 100 or 1000 or a million images of penises it shouldn't really matter. It's if we accept that we can have penis pictures, then we should have them. There's an argument that Commons then shouldn't become "show the world your penis" website where every male uploads a picture of his package, but who draws the line of where "enough" is? — raekyt 01:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is no legitimate reason to retain such an image in a Wikimedia project other than to a) spite those who wish to clean Commons up or b) serve their own prurient interests. Tarc (talk) 12:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- You don't think someone might have need of a freely licensed sex image which shows more than just genitalia? -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Need no, want yes. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- We don't editorialise about what other people may find necessary. How would you feel if we came along to article you edit, and decided that an image on it was unnecessary and so deleted it? Need is subjective. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- What about compliance with legal age record requirements? In the absence of that, how do you know both people are not underage? How do you know that e.g. the couple haven't broken up, and the boyfriend is posting this to harass her? According to the WMF resolution, you need subject consent. You don't have it, do you? So why do you vote Keep? AndreasKolbe JN466 15:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- For fuck's sake Matt, we're talking about a pair of grainy phonecam images here. Why don't you stop using Commons as a replica of Reddit's /r/jailbait forum? Tarc (talk) 15:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- If we had better photo, the quality might be a reason for deletion, but we don't, so it isn't. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- So it is really within the Commons' mission to document every possible angle of every possible sex position with every type of participant? You can't take what is in commons:Category:Doggy style positions and say "that's good, we don't need your shitty cellphone pic" ? Tarc (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't say that was the mission, but the mission is to provide a wide range of media. Having deleted these two images, the only photos of this act we now possess are either
- Joke pictures
- Focussed entirely on the genitals
- All other images are drawings, urns, etc. That's not providing a wide range, it's quite laughably poor in fact - the one thing that you're most likely to want is the one thing you can't get. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't say that was the mission, but the mission is to provide a wide range of media. Having deleted these two images, the only photos of this act we now possess are either
- So it is really within the Commons' mission to document every possible angle of every possible sex position with every type of participant? You can't take what is in commons:Category:Doggy style positions and say "that's good, we don't need your shitty cellphone pic" ? Tarc (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- If we had better photo, the quality might be a reason for deletion, but we don't, so it isn't. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Need no, want yes. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- You don't think someone might have need of a freely licensed sex image which shows more than just genitalia? -mattbuck (Talk) 14:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- In that case, if we have tons of other images which are joke pictures or focussed on the genitals, shouldn't they be deleted instead? If this picture was really better than the other ones, then all the other ones are redundant and they should go instead. Ken Arromdee (talk) 16:01, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Silly Kids in Toronto -14 Fucking in a Stairwell": The likelihood is that 14 is the age and that these "kids" are not of age. On those grounds alone, this photo ought to go. Bielle (talk) 17:21, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that the photo ought to go, but the assertion that 14 is the age is clearly wrong. The previous photo in the gallery that this image came from is called "Silly Kids in Toronto - 13 Keepin' Cool with Coconut Water" and the one after it is numbered 15 in the filename. It's clearly related to the sequence of the images, not the ages of the subjects. Prioryman (talk) 17:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
FWIW, the images have been deleted - not that it will stop the arguing here, I suspect... Prioryman (talk) 23:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think someone here once called someone a "scoundrel" for discussing an issue here. As this thread shows, however, in order to bring enough attention to help assuage an issue, sometimes it is necessary to use this forum. Cla68 (talk) 05:17, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Could a person educate himself by reading Wikipedia?
Democratic Senator John Kerry does not think so. Kerry sarcastically calls Romney "the Wikipedia candidate", and "characterizes Mitt Romney’s lack of knowledge about foreign policy as scary". I'm interested what Jimbo Wales could tell Senator John Kerry 2 prove he's wrong? 67.169.11.52 (talk) 04:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- You missed the point. In Kerry's opinion, Romney's positions are as changeable as a Wikipedia page is, and that one must drill down to see if the citations support what the article claims, or if Romney's words 2 weeks ago jibe what he is saying today, respectively. Tarc (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Kinda funny that Kerry, of all people, would say something like that; some of us, like me, remember 2004. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think Romney would have said "Syria is Iran's only ally in the Arab world. It's their route to the sea." five times, then repeated it in a national debate, if he'd read Iran, or Syria for that matter. Wnt (talk) 13:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- It entirely depends on the version of the article he happens to view at a given time; recall the recent case of the UAE's soccer team nickname, which was up for 3 weeks. Tarc (talk) 13:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- ROFL. We really should write up an instruction guide on how to read Wikipedia, which involves actually using those little blue superscripts that show up in every paragraph, looking at the history, and using a certain amount of common sense. Wnt (talk) 13:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- It entirely depends on the version of the article he happens to view at a given time; recall the recent case of the UAE's soccer team nickname, which was up for 3 weeks. Tarc (talk) 13:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think Romney would have said "Syria is Iran's only ally in the Arab world. It's their route to the sea." five times, then repeated it in a national debate, if he'd read Iran, or Syria for that matter. Wnt (talk) 13:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Kinda funny that Kerry, of all people, would say something like that; some of us, like me, remember 2004. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Kerry is just a power hungry ex-Nebraskan...he hasn't lived in Nebraska for years...reminds me of when Hillary Clinton got the Senate seat in NY and she'd never actually lived there...guess her example is worse. Kerry's opinion and $2.75 might buy somebody a coffee...MONGO 15:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- It helps to do some research before attempting wit; John Kerry != Bob Kerrey. Tarc (talk) 15:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Urr, yeah. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Doink...oh...had my politicians screwed up...duh.MONGO 16:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Urr, yeah. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Fixed links for politicians to see world maps: I have created the crucial map redirects for a safer world:
- Syria map, map of Syria - links to "Outline of Syria" with maps
- Iran map, map of Iran - links to "Outline of Iran" with maps
- Iraq map, map of Iraq - links to "Outline of Iraq" with maps.
- I should have created those links last year, then everyone running for U.S. President would already know, by now, where Syria and Iraq are located. Most articles do not have many maps, so each "Outline_of_..." article provides more pictures, and more basic data, in a fast concise format. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- The funny thing is that when I met Kerry a few years ago, he was very respectful and apparently a big fan of Wikipedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- One can respect (and use, and edit, and administer) Wikipedia, and still find somebody whose positions are as changeable as a Wikipedia article worthy of mockery! For that matter, anybody who blindly relies on Wikipedia alone, without doing further research or following the leads a good Wikipedia article provides, is not worthy of deep respect, much less the presidency. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I remember bringing this up with you Jimmy a few years back and you said about organizing a cleanup. The problem has got too huge, 90% at least of Indian and Pakistan articles contain POV, unsourced poorly written material and ugly lists of schools and local "famous" taxi drivers. The average article is an embarrassment. Given the high computer useage in Indian and Pakistan and generally poor command of english and extremely slim chance sof the average IP/newbie writing something encyclopedic which is properly sourced I think we'd be better off incubating a high number of articles and only restoring once checked and put on watchlists. Anybody browse through the articles we have in the sub categories in Category:Populated places in Pakistan and Category:Populated places in India for instance and it'll have you shaking your head that we are hosting that sort of content. First I picked at random was Kulgam.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- As mentioned at that thread, I'm trying, and failing, to come up with any reason not to go through and delete these articles and make people restart from scratch. In many instances, a blank page would be much more helpful than someone writing about their BEAUTIFUL VILLAGE in ALL CAPS. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Now {fixcaps} can help edit those: After many such articles, I wrote the quick Template:Fixcaps to help reformat the all-caps text for easier editing. Just use {fixcaps} and reword the wp:Peacock terms:
- {{fixcaps|/BEAUTIFUL /VILLAGE in ALL /^CAPS}} → Template:Fixcaps
- Then replace the glowing terms as less exuberant, as "Scenic Village in all CAPS" or such! -Wikid77 (talk) 07:12, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Now {fixcaps} can help edit those: After many such articles, I wrote the quick Template:Fixcaps to help reformat the all-caps text for easier editing. Just use {fixcaps} and reword the wp:Peacock terms:
- I tend to specialise in the Indic articles sphere and, yes, these things are dreadfully poor and not capable of being sourced in a meaningful manner except to co-ordinates (which may or may not be correct because the same village names often reappear in various parts of the countries). Alas, I've tended to hit the "populated places are inherently notable" argument, although I was involved when PMDrive1061 nuked a ton of Indian village articles last year. It is a real problem but I don't know what the answer is other than dedicated clean ups, which (in the case of caste/clan articles) have so far taken me around 18 months and results in a phenomenal amount of fighting, SPIs, semi-protections etc. - Sitush (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't this part of what Wikiprojects do? There seem to be active Wikiprojects for both India and Pakistan. Neutron (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- The Pakistan one isn't really active, and WP:INDIA is swamped with all kinds of awful problems. I'm more than ready to start going the way of PMDrive1061; seems like a perfectly good time to invoke IAR. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't this part of what Wikiprojects do? There seem to be active Wikiprojects for both India and Pakistan. Neutron (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah Sitush, and we both want to see as extensive coverage of India and Pakistan as UK or USA as well, but the problem is too big, as you say 18 months just trying to sort out a portion of the clans which I also mentioned along with the villages and amongst the worst. I'm planning on a massive AFD proposal but I'll need help drawing it up. I genuinely believe that 90% of all articles on Pakistan and Indian are more problematic existing than if they were missing. I believe we have enough evidence that its not working to make at least an incubation of articles a valid option. Yes "places are inherently notable" argument is a problem but if we can provide enough example of all articles containing less than satisfactory content I think a lot of editors will see that this represents the toilet in the movie Trainspotting (film) of wikipedia's content. Cleanup and improvement is always the argument but given the lack of numbers working on thema and the sheer amount off watchlists I believe the problem needs to be blown up and new articles on the Indosphere strictly regulated. India and Pakistan are unique in regards to traffic.
@Neutron. Pakistan project only has one or two decent half decent editors, no more than the people commenting on this thread. You'd need several hundred to clear up the existing mess over at least a year or two and put all articles on watchlists to stop the germs infesting again. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I have been very disappointed in the past to see people immediately making assumptions when content (sourced or not) mentions some prominent families in a village in Pakistan, and they immediately assume it's non-notable. We have no idea if it is or not. How people in a culture like theirs think of what is important in a town is probably different. They may well have sources available, now or in the future. The unsourced material is obviously prone to hoaxes, but usually it is respectfully written, not a real BLP problem. Why not just leave it alone and wait for someone to solidify the information? Wnt (talk) 21:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not disputing notability of clans or villages. I'm just stating what is very obvious to the average visitor to the articles and that the average article really is a disgrace and would be better off incubated. Occasionally as you say it might be fairly well written but badly needing sourcing but even then often not verifiable.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think we should recognize that there are places in the world where it's still 2001 on Wikipedia. This project didn't get started by people hacking away at anything that sounded a little bit off - it was started with very low standards, and people willing to improve things where they can. Wnt (talk) 22:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, and its now 2012 and the vast majority of Pakistan and India articles if anything have got worse since the articles were started, attracting POV, poorly written, unsourced, inappropriate material. Most of them in the current state are better off as short stubs.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 22:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm curious, why is this posted at Jimbo's page? ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know, but I should probably mention in a day or two, TopGun, Inlandmamba, and myself, are going to nominate Muhammed Ali Jinnah, which is a reasonably important Pakistan article, at FAC. So there is hope of bringing order from chaos.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I am not quite sure what your point is here, Wehwalt. Jinnah is certainly a subject worthy of much attention and quality writing etc but he bears no relation to the average Indo-Pak geographical/caste/clan stub etc, which is otherwise more often than not WP:PUFFERY or, less specifically, OED puffery. One high profile article among many thousands of utter crap does not an encyclopedia make. Although the situation was never great in my limited experience, it has deteriorated considerably since WMF decided to make their well-intentioned but hopelessly misguided "push" in India. As with any situation, some good can always be found and it is appreciated. But I can find more notability/more sources etc for the street on which I live - 30-ish houses than for most Indic "village" articles as currently presented. And mine is a typical Manchester terraced row of 1880s houses that really, really it would be mad for me to introduce as an article. Yes, systemic bias is an issue and there is a tradition of oral history, transliteration problems etc, but one of the core subtexts of that bias is the pride/POV etc in history and location that is common among the Indo-Pak contributors but rarely (imo) seems to amount to anything encyclopedic for the other 80% of the world's population.
I've not phrased the above very well and apologise in advance for that, but I stand by the guts of my statements. - Sitush (talk) 23:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- My hope is to have it be an example of what can be done, but I agree the articles on the wide spots in the mud in South India are a problem. Not sure if restricting article creation is the answer though.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I'm smelling a strong stench of bias here. Pakistan has 180 million inhabitants. India has 1.2 billion. Britain has 60 million - 1/3 of Pakistan, 1/20 of India. What would make your blocks more notable than Indian towns? Because they're a poor country you call these "wide places in the mud"? They're still notable - even if Wikipedia, so far, for some funny reason, hasn't really made itself popular over there. Wnt (talk) 23:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- My hope is to have it be an example of what can be done, but I agree the articles on the wide spots in the mud in South India are a problem. Not sure if restricting article creation is the answer though.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I am not quite sure what your point is here, Wehwalt. Jinnah is certainly a subject worthy of much attention and quality writing etc but he bears no relation to the average Indo-Pak geographical/caste/clan stub etc, which is otherwise more often than not WP:PUFFERY or, less specifically, OED puffery. One high profile article among many thousands of utter crap does not an encyclopedia make. Although the situation was never great in my limited experience, it has deteriorated considerably since WMF decided to make their well-intentioned but hopelessly misguided "push" in India. As with any situation, some good can always be found and it is appreciated. But I can find more notability/more sources etc for the street on which I live - 30-ish houses than for most Indic "village" articles as currently presented. And mine is a typical Manchester terraced row of 1880s houses that really, really it would be mad for me to introduce as an article. Yes, systemic bias is an issue and there is a tradition of oral history, transliteration problems etc, but one of the core subtexts of that bias is the pride/POV etc in history and location that is common among the Indo-Pak contributors but rarely (imo) seems to amount to anything encyclopedic for the other 80% of the world's population.
- I don't know, but I should probably mention in a day or two, TopGun, Inlandmamba, and myself, are going to nominate Muhammed Ali Jinnah, which is a reasonably important Pakistan article, at FAC. So there is hope of bringing order from chaos.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
(od) There's a tradeoff here. Obviously you're not going to find reliable sources for small villages in India the way you are for villages in the UK. But that doesn't make it any the less important for us cover these villages to the extent possible using government documents (perhaps, heaven forbid, even primary ones) and whatever local language newspaper references we can find online. Some of the material may turn out to be puffery, and we should delete any such material, but I don't like the idea of wholesale deletion of articles merely because we can't fix them. This encyclopedia is meant to be a perpetual work in progress and if that means carrying some poorly sourced and possibly puffed up articles for a while, then so be it. Somewhere along the way everything ultimately gets fixed but that will only happen if we have material to fix in the first place. --regentspark (comment) 01:46, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Consider progress on "Gurdwara" and similar: Please remember that some months ago, article "Gurdwara" was a rambling mess, and even though people sometimes still append more trivia, the article was edited to become an interesting summary of a typical Sikh place of worship. The same goes for those villages, and their economy, and the sights of interest. They can be easily edited to reach tolerable levels of content. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:12, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's not it at all; it's that articles on American and British hamlets/villages aren't written by people unable to string a decent English sentence together and have no idea what goes into an encyclopedia. I've never seen anything outside of Indo-Pak village articles that look as absolutely awful as, for instance, Jayya; if they're out there, I'm more than happy to zap those as well. But the unsourced piles of puffery and promotion like he aforementioned page make us look bad if we allow such unmitigated shit to indefinitely lay around and cause problems from the already severely strained people desperately trying to beat some sense into the area. Sometimes, when content is completely worthless (as is the case here) it's much easier to start over again, so we should do it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hmmm, are there really no generally accepted, even say encyclopedic, reference works on the Sub-Continent? It would seem that English speakers would have produced something on this area of the world in the last several centuries. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
"I'm curious, why is this posted at Jimbo's page?" Jimmy once said he would contact his friend in Pakistan and try to organize a cleanup. I came here hoping he would still do so. Care to respond on this Jimbo? C'mon regentspark and wn, I'm not disputing notability, I want Pakistan and India to have the same coverage as UK and USA. The problem lies in the fact that as Blade says many visitors have problems with writing half decent sentences in English, all unsourced and usually plagued with POV and CAPITAL LETTERS. When thousands of articles are that awful they present a major problem for wikipedia, its just not good enough. Yes, we are a work in progress but the sheer amount needing cleanup and virtually all content in them wiped clean means we'd lose little by deleting/incubating the articles and making a list of those to restart with sources and with some control.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 09:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I have taken a purely random Pakistan village stub, Batangi. It seems to be rather typical, with things like "[...]linked with it by an unmetalled road.", and "The people of the village are extremely hardy, simple, intelligent and brave. The unique example of their courage and determination is[...]". The second one I opened: Shawa. Yes, it has the ALL CAPS problem, with things like "the people of SHAWA are very keen to get higher education". Dastagir Colony contains many "famous" and "world famous" things apparently. These articles need some good solution, either massive cleanup or mass redirection probably. Fram (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Neither Batangi nor Shawa are that hard to fix. Took me a minute to clean up Batangi. Of course there will be unsourced statements, there just aren't enough sources, so we have to use some judgement in deciding which ones to keep and which ones not to keep. For example, do we know for sure that there is a chinese takeaway in the English village of Bussage? Not really, but there it is along with Ram's Inn. --regentspark (comment) 14:03, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just to step back a bit, I looked at the (old versions of) the articles given as (bad) example above, and I thought they were net positives even then. I mean, there's useful information in there. For instance, the passage "The people of the village [of Batangi are extremely hardy, simple, intelligent and brave. The unique example of their courage and determination is the road connecting the village with Abbottabad City which they built on self help basis in 1983." tells me that there is probably a road connecting Batangi with Abbottabad, which was probably built around 1983. That is useful to know. Granted, the intelligent and brave stuff is just noise, and definitely should go (and I greatly appreciate those editors undertaking the Augean task of cleaning these articles up), but I'm not seeing these articles as being worse than nothing. Herostratus (talk) 15:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- I seriously don't understand how someone could think that the information that a road exists is worth the puffery. In fact, the road information is itself borderline, and I'd strip it out of most articles in most cases unless it were sourced (we are, after all, neither a directory nor a tourist site). And someone talked above about how the info isn't particularly bad because it isn't negative...well, I for one consider unsourced puffery to be about 80% as bad as unsourced criticism, especially since in some cases elevation of one group implies denigration of others. I'm not quite certain that tearing everything down is the right solution, but it should at least be considered. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just to step back a bit, I looked at the (old versions of) the articles given as (bad) example above, and I thought they were net positives even then. I mean, there's useful information in there. For instance, the passage "The people of the village [of Batangi are extremely hardy, simple, intelligent and brave. The unique example of their courage and determination is the road connecting the village with Abbottabad City which they built on self help basis in 1983." tells me that there is probably a road connecting Batangi with Abbottabad, which was probably built around 1983. That is useful to know. Granted, the intelligent and brave stuff is just noise, and definitely should go (and I greatly appreciate those editors undertaking the Augean task of cleaning these articles up), but I'm not seeing these articles as being worse than nothing. Herostratus (talk) 15:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe someone can contact every editor in Category:Wikipedians in India and every editor in Category:Wikipedians in Pakistan, and help them to use correct English and to follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines. As a useful intermediate step, they might be encouraged to become participants in Wikipedia:WikiProject India and Wikipedia:WikiProject Pakistan, and to follow on their watchlists the respective talk pages, where participants can be helped to use correct English and to follow Wikipedia policies and guidelines. See also: Category:Wikipedians in Bangladesh and Wikipedia:WikiProject Bangladesh; Category:Wikipedians in Nepal and Wikipedia:WikiProject Nepal; and Category:Wikipedians in Sri Lanka and Wikipedia:WikiProject Sri Lanka.
- —Wavelength (talk) 16:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC) and 16:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Independent review of Wikimedia UK
I just wanted people to be aware of this, because the issue has been discussed extensively here. I will be watching the issue closely and meeting with people at Wikimedia UK over the coming weeks.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Here's a prediction: it'll suggest some token ways in which WMUK could improve their governance but will otherwise give them a clean bill of health. Appointing reviews like this is essentially a PR move. You don't appoint them if you think something is fundamentally wrong, you shut down the offending entity. The review isn't a bad thing - it keeps the media at bay - but I don't think people should expect anything particularly earth-shattering or surprising coming out of it. Prioryman (talk) 23:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Since the reviewer selected is a professional business consultant and not necessarily involved in legal or law-enforcement type investigations, the report likely will not be written in the style of an investigative report. Instead, I expect it will be written the way consultants usually write their reports, with a non-confrontational (such as not directly linking identified problems to individuals), polite, description of current business and operational practices followed by (hopefully) detailed recommendations. One question, Jimbo...consultants are expensive. Who is paying for this, the WMF or WMUK? Just curious. Cla68 (talk) 00:19, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- WMF are paying. You should also see the terms of reference, which are linked from the statement. Johnbod (talk) 00:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 00:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- WMF are paying. You should also see the terms of reference, which are linked from the statement. Johnbod (talk) 00:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Since the reviewer selected is a professional business consultant and not necessarily involved in legal or law-enforcement type investigations, the report likely will not be written in the style of an investigative report. Instead, I expect it will be written the way consultants usually write their reports, with a non-confrontational (such as not directly linking identified problems to individuals), polite, description of current business and operational practices followed by (hopefully) detailed recommendations. One question, Jimbo...consultants are expensive. Who is paying for this, the WMF or WMUK? Just curious. Cla68 (talk) 00:19, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- "It will also aim to answer specific questions that arise on these topics." Good, because I have a couple of questions. ;) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- @ Jimbo. Kudos. Do try to find out if the government of Gibraltar or any entity subsidized by the government of Gibraltar are paying for
junketstrips to Gibraltar for WMUK insiders. Sometimes paid compensation takes forms other than the writing of a check... Carrite (talk) 02:26, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, once the consultant team is established, I recommend that WMUK/WMF publicize their contact info so people can communicate concerns to them such as you elucidated above. Cla68 (talk) 05:19, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Saudi Arabia partnership and censorship
Hi Jimmy,
did you have time to investigate this matter? Are you happy or not?
--81.173.135.121 (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've learned a great deal more. I am happy about it now. I will report fuller when I have time, but I'm at a Wikimedia board meeting now... probably early next week, although if I get a spare moment, maybe later today.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. --81.173.135.121 (talk) 19:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Gibraltar hooks RfC
The Gibraltar hooks discussion is now an RfC:
Media coverage:
- "Wikipedia's Jimmy Wales Breaks Silence On Resurgence Of Promotional Scandal", The Daily Dot, 25 October 2012 --AndreasKolbe JN466 20:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Huh. I wasn't aware that I had been silent.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
COPPA rules
This seems like something we should be looking at. Any help with analysis of what is going on would be appreciated.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has an article "Children's Online Privacy Protection Act".
- —Wavelength (talk) 23:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- I can't see how those changes would be upheld in court... another case of politicians who haven't a clue what the internet is and probably has never used it before trying to make rules and regulations for it.. i think. lol. — raekyt 02:39, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- To add, it says they're thinking of expanding the "information" you can't collect from children to include IP addresses, this is a huge issue. Every webserver in existence logs hits with IP addresses, as a backend server log thing. That coupled with any website that accepts user-input and stores it logs that with IP addresses... If that rule is implemented and upheld in court every webserver will need special rules or special versions written that doesn't log the initial hits IP address, presents every user with a COPPA notice before they can proceed, and not log any entry hits to the COPPA page, which is pretty much unfeasible and would break the internet as we know it. — raekyt 02:49, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's not a big deal. If I'm reading the proposed changes correctly, it wouldn't affect us. They're not substantially changing the definition of "website aimed a children" for our purposes, I don't think (Wikipedia could possibly be considered to host "content aimed at children" (defined as "persons 12 and under" for these purposes), because it's a general-purpose encyclopedia, and general-purpose encyclopedias have always been read by clever 11 and 12 year olds and we should expect this. However, we are not considered a "website directed at children" since we are mainly targeted at older people. Disney is beating the drum for websites like ours to continue treating as children only persons who self-identify as children, and "The Commission finds merit it Disney's suggestion" (ya think?).
- (As an aside, our continuing to promote initiatives aimed at promoting Wikipedia in schools which could include middle schools is (among other bad things) foolish and dangerous as it exposes us to being defined as being a website directed at children and we should cut it out, in my opinion. I suppose we won't, though.)
- If we were defined as a "website directed at children" the we could no longer "collect" IP address (if all this goes through). Editing could probably be considered an integral part of using the Wikipedia, and when you edit we do collect (and publish!) your IP address (if you're not signed into an account).
- (A case could be made that certain articles (My Little Pony or whatever) constitute a "section of the website directed at children", in which case we'd have to handle those differently. But that's always been true, and IMO that'd be a very weak case, although you never know. But if it such an assertion did carry, we'd have to no longer collect and publish IP addresses for edits to those articles, probably, which in practice would probably mean for the whole site I guess, which would be huge deal.)
- There's a bunch of other stuff, but I think that the issue continues to be that we must never allow anyone who self-identifies as 12 or under to publish any information, or edit under a username, that could be used to track that person in real life. Which de facto we do now. So I'm not seeing anything to worry about. Herostratus (talk) 03:55, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Possibility of admin abuse
Hi, sorry to disturb you with this, but I consider that you are supreme authority in Wikipedia and that only you can solve this problem (if you have free time and will to do it, of course).
You should see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Request_concerning_Antidiskriminator
There is an long term dispute of two Croatian users (DIREKTOR and Peacemaker67) with various Serbian users about Serbia-related topics and admins involved in this always impose topic bans for Serbia related topics to Serbian users (myself included), while two Croatian users are allowed to write about Serbia what ever they want. So I think that admins involved in this (and same admins are always involved) are biased and that they favor Croatian side. Due to history of bad relations between Serbs and Croats, it is unbelievable that one can think that Croatian users are always correct and NPOV when they write about Serbia and that all Serbian users who oppose them are always wrong.
So, it would be nice that you check is there admin abuse in this case and to check are these admins biased or incompetent to deal with this situation. Thank you very much. PANONIAN 05:47, 26 October 2012 (UTC)