User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Japanese business income 2

The answer contradicts the fact. As for WCJ2009, Wikimedia Foundation does a patent of the holding right to them.Komura of Wikimedia Foundation permitted this[1].In the event of wikipedia 10 in kyoto, Wikimedia Foundation is written that the project composition was done as "Sponsors"[2].Wikimedia Foundation offered T-shirt and the pin batch.I sent your video visit[3].Director of foundation Ting Chen participated over a video telephone using Skype.

FormerIP: A foundation provides it with the business trip travel expenses of Jay Walsh.Based on a Japanese price level, I think that I am non-reasonable.Severe use is not decided though it is written that the residuary estate belongs to the group, and will be used it for those cost in the future. The group may donate to the religious organization and the political party for instance, and you are supposed buy an individual personal computer.The meeting place is IZAKAYA called The WATAMI[4]. IZAKAYA is a bar where plonk and meal are sold.Drinking is possible in a fixed amount system if order NOMIHODAI.In this store, the system is　[5].Because this shop is a very cheap shop, it is low fare.--山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 12:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I understand your concern, but I think you are wrong. First, to repeat, the participation of some members of staff in an event does not mean that the event is organized by the Wikimedia Foundation. I made a video which was made available freely, and it was viewed by dozens or possibly hundreds of different local events large and small. However, none of that is really relevant because I agree that if local events are being organized by community members, and there is some money involved in the organization, I want people to be thoughtful and responsible about it.

It occurs to me, then, that you are asking the wrong people and in the wrong place. This is English Wikipedia, and it seems obvious to me that no one here knows any more about this than I do.

Have you asked politely to the people who actually organized the meeting? How much money was collected, how much was spent, and what is to be done with the surplus?

In my very long experience, I would suggest that everything is usually completely fine in situations like this. The party was organized, everyone had a good time, some small amount of money was left over, someone has the money, and it will be used for some future event. I really doubt if there is a problem here.

If you come to them as you have come to me, I don't blame them for not answering. You accused me of pocketing the money personally for an event I had no knowledge about, an outrageous accusation. If you approach people in that manner, they are likely to simply ignore you for being rude.

Here is another idea: why don't you find some member of the Japanese Wikipedia community who speaks very good English, and ask them to help you communicate with me. Your posts here read like they were made with the help of Google translate. That can be perfectly fine, but it does mean that some of your sentences don't always make sense. For example, when you write "I think that I am non-reasonable" you almost certainly meant to say the opposite: "I think that I am reasonable". I fear that other bits of meaning may be getting lost in translation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:10, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

It is correct that you think.However, the information addressee of the event has only here.I paid propriety four months ago, and inquired of the group.However, there was no response at all.It was written the Wikimedia　foundation official meeting in the document that they had made.Permission by the foundation was written giving, the logo was used, and it was confusing.You take responsibility for having consented tacitly to it.

You gave a patent. To the Japanese group. The abandonment of the authority, a domain transfer, transfer of the management."English speaker" that you say are their all groups. In Japanese Wikipedia, nobody helps.

You have the responsibility of proving the accountability and the fact. In Japan when you granted the group a management right transfer and official permission. --山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 19:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I am going to ask someone with dual linguistic skills to assist, as there seem to be nuances of meaning here that are not properly understood on both sides. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:52, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Check here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:User_ja . It shouldn't be too hard to find somebody to translate. 山吹色の御菓子, if you can try posting your concern here in Japanese, I'm sure someone will come along and translate it for you. Zaereth (talk) 21:22, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

What would be nice for this is a script or tool that can identify users who are in both of two given categories, and also have edited within the last week (or similar). Anyway I've dropped an email to one such person. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:32, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Did someone call for a translator? 通訳者が必要のようですね。Just so everyone knows, I was contacted by Demiurge1000 and do not yet have a grasp of the details of the argument. 最初に断っておきますが、今日Demiurge1000さんに頼まれてまだ議論の内容を把握していません。I will just try to convey what 山吹色の御菓子 wants to say. I don't have a lot of time to put into this. この件にかけられる時間が限られているので、とりあえず山吹色の御菓子さんの言い分を皆さんに伝えておきたいと思います。 So, maybe 山吹色の御菓子 can tell me in Japanese what s/he wants to say on my own talk page. まずは山吹色の御菓子さんに日本語でご自分の言い分を僕のTalkページにて教えていただければと思います。よろしくお願いします。Matt Thorn (talk) 14:57, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Whoa. I just did some digging. This person, 山吹色の御菓子, has apparently been banned from contributing to the Japanese version of Wikipedia. I don't know why yet, but it seems s/he is basically venting here because the folks on the Japanese side have had enough of him/her. In short, and I apologize for being blunt, it would seem the person may be a kook. Sorry, I just call them as I see them.Matt Thorn (talk) 16:02, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, his rolling up here and accusing me of pocketing the money he's concerned about was not a good sign, but I say assume good faith. He does raise a valid question: if someone is having events in the name of the Foundation and turning a profit, then who is it and where is the money going? My point is: it's perfectly valid to ask that question; it is not valid to assume the worst and issue random accusations.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I have scanned theJapanese material (There's a lot of it) that 山吹色の御菓子 refers to. It's a lot of good-faith, hair-splitting discussion that you see on Wikipedia anywhere. I see no sign of the sort of coup 山吹色の御菓子 describes. I haven't read it all, but I've read enough to conclude that 山吹色の御菓子 threw around a lot of unsubstantiated accusations that are no more coherent in Japanese than in English, and eventually made such a nuisance of himself that he was banned. If there was a genuine faction of ja.wikipedia editors who felt something sketchy was going on, you would be hearing from more than 山吹色の御菓子. He says there was plenty of dissent. There was plenty of discussion, and as far as I can tell, consensus was reached, and 山吹色の御菓子 didn't like it. He is acting entirely on his own. He has blown up the tab from a meeting at a pub to the scale of a JFK assassination conspiracy. Nothing to see here, folks.Matt Thorn (talk) 02:22, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Matt. You do know, of course, that you've accidentally volunteered to help me whenever something interesting and complex is going on in Japanese Wikipedia. :p--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Oops. Matt Thorn (talk) 03:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, Matt. Jimmy will be able to pay you using cash from the Japanese conferences, which is sitting in a secret Hamas-linked Swiss bank account. --FormerIP (talk) 03:43, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Haha. FormerIP, I think that's supposed to be a secret. It is a secret, that's what I said...--FormerIP (talk) 04:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC) UPDATE: I read the discussion on the proposal to block 山吹色の御菓子 indefinitely. Contributors were nearly unanimous in support of the indefinite block. Even those opposed agree that 山吹色の御菓子 is a serious pest, but felt he should be given a limited ban of several months. No one took his side or defended him. The proposal was introduced on April 19, 2010, and approved on July 7, 2010.Matt Thorn (talk) 03:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Matt Thorn. Please do not describe my impression but translate the fact. It is necessary to translate taking the responsibility as a specialist.In Japanese Wikipedia,Translate paging web all.the translation like Matt Thorn that is irresponsible, and fabricated is done, and the intention of Jimbo is not transmitted either. --山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 02:25, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

山吹色の御菓子, make your posts in Japanese and let someone else translate them. I don't know if you realized this, but translation software often garbles what you're actually trying to say, making it hard to understand. —Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Hyper Combo K.O.!)} 19:52, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The translator refuses to translate it.--山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 08:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I trust Matt Thorn. I'll also trust Britty/Aphaia from Japanese Wikipedia, or any admin from Japanese Wikipedia. But if you want to continue this conversation, I am afraid I must insist that you get a human to translate for us. And I may insist that we move this conversation to email or to my user talk page in Japanese Wikipedia - I'm sure it is beginning to bore visitors to this page.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

It is correct to trust the person.However, the problem has occurred. It is not understood whether the act is correct even if you trust them.You have the responsibility of investigating the fact.If you do not take action,You are the same as giving them a patent.--山吹色の御菓子 (talk) 16:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Change "vision"?

The statement of "sharing the sum of all human knowledge" was certainly good 10 years ago, but that's clearly not what we're doing. I cannot think of any revised, accurate, yet catchy phrase ("all documented knowledge" sounds too technical), but maybe it's time to chew over it and come up with something different for you to say as you travel around the world. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:08, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Why? Our goal still is "the sum of all human knowledge". Not everything has to be documented, and if certain common knowledge is not likely to be challenged, it doesn't need to a reference. -- œ^™ 04:25, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm thinking of the Eyak woman in Northern Alaska or the guy on the Highlands of Papua New Guinea who never wrote anything down; what they know is similar to the sky being blue, yet we cannot include it here. One would have to conclude that it's either not knowledge, or (worse yet) that they are not human. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Well hey, I got a link for everything: WP:NOTDONE, WP:NORUSH. ;) But no, I get what you're saying, but I don't think changing our vision statement is really necessary. It's already too established anyway. -- œ^™ 04:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the OP, although perhaps not OP's tone. The goal of Wikipedia is not to include all human knowledge. In fact, one of our five pillars, WP:NOT explicitly lists a whole bevy of types of "human knowledge" that we neither want nor allow. Furthermore, I've seen editors (usually those seeking to include trivial information in otherwise fine articles, or those seeking to include BLP violating info on the grounds that it's "sourced") sometimes even use this vision statement as a defense. Now, I fully understand that a vision statement is not a policy, and that company's routinely neither want nor intend to follow their own mottos in a literal way, and it may not even be possible—if I might be a bit snarky, Google's "Don't be evil" comes to mind. But I think that the problems that Google has faced as a result of its motto point to the reason why this actually matters—because it's awkward to have to say "Well, we don't really mean 'all human knowledge'.". I think it may be worthwhile to consider a more appropriate phrase, although, like Seb, I don't know what that might be. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:08, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not the goal of Wikipedia to include all human knowledge. Nobody here is discussing any Wikipedia goal, this is about the Wikimedia vision. --Yair rand (talk) 06:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

You are right that it is not the goal of Wikipedia to include all human knowledge - the key phrase usually overlooked in this criticism is "the sum". It is the goal of Wikipedia to include the sum of all human knowledge.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

That's 42. --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Am I missing the meaning of "sum" here? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 11:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

See Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. Better still, read the books. There's a reason people go on and on and on about them! --Dweller (talk) 12:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Duh. I'm not that stupid... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 12:16, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Sum is used as "summary" - see definition #4 at http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sum#Noun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.227.89.95 (talk) 13:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

ooooh. hm-kay. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

So let's have a competition to summarize all human knowledge in, say, 1000 words or less. Then we can just leave the winning entry on the main page and we can all go party.--Kotniski (talk) 13:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

"Sum" refers to "summary"? That's not how it's being taken in its translations... Anyway, if that's the goal if Wikipedia alone, why is it the vision for all of Wikimedia? --Yair rand (talk) 21:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Going off topic, but there quite often seems to be a confusion in public announcements between Wikipedia and Wikimedia. (Like with this Child Protection/Pedophilia thing - why was that imposed from the centre as a policy on English Wikipedia, when it clearly ought - if it's going to be a centrally decreed policy - to be a Wikimedia-wide one?) (Oh, and on the sum thing, no of course it wasn't intended to mean "summary" - it was presumably a broad statement which, like nearly all of the things we all say, doesn't come out 100% true when subjected to literal pedantic scrutiny.) --Kotniski (talk) 23:50, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree on the second point - literal pedantic scrutiny can generally find some flaw or alleged flaw in just about anything, no question. But on the first point, it was intended to mean summary - I should know, I'm the one who wrote it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:56, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

That's not how the audience will have understood it, then. (Does anyone really use the noun "sum" to mean "summary"? Particularly when prefaced by a definite article - you wouldn't say "I want the summary of this report", you'd say "...a summary", unless some known summary already existed.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Not an old guy, and pretty cute!

From AdbMonkey's main user page: "So to summarize, I really just like the cool people on wikipedia, and I LOVE THE WIKIPEDIA SO MUCH! It's so cute! I want to kiss it and marry it! The one that created this really knew what he was doing. And I imagined an old guy when I read about him, but he's actually pretty cute. That's nice. Anyway. I like this friendly, nice wikipedia because it is unbiased and honest and will always love you back." Thought you might be able to use a reason to smile. Best,  – OhioStandard (talk) 12:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC) Wikipedia, cute, friendly and unbiased? LOL are we talking about the same encyclopedia here?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

We're talking about the NY Times article today, right?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia's coverage in The Economist

Mr. Wales,

I was wondering whether you’ve been following the coverage that Wikipedia has been receiving in The Economist. The most recent issue of The Economist published a letter from me in response to an article about this in their previous issue. My letter is here, the first one listed under the “WikiTweaks” heading.

The Economist edited my letter in order to make it fit in their magazine, which may have slightly altered the meaning of some parts of it. I’m aware that you began delegating your authority to ArbCom before 2007, but the point of my letter’s last paragraph is that this trend and the decline in participation still seem correlated with one another. The Economist also left out where I mentioned who was the user whose reason for leaving I described in detail. The user I was referring to is user:Varoon_Arya, and my letter is summarizing the reason for quitting the project that he gave in this comment.

My goal here isn’t to undo any specific decision made by ArbCom or by the community, so I’d rather not get into specific decisions that I think were examples of the problem that I described, although I can do that if you think it would be productive. What I’d like is just to reduce the incidence of this sort of problem in the future. During last month’s arbitration election, some of the candidates also brought attention to this issue—for example, this is how Sandstein described it:

In my view, the main problem with policy enforcement is not that it is either too strict or too lenient, but that it is conducted unevenly, because in practice it is shaped too much by social dynamics and not enough by rules. Popular and experienced editors can often get away with problematic behavior more easily than new editors who espouse fringe opinions. But it should be the other way around: The longer somebody participates, and especially if they hold positions of trust such as adminship, the higher a standard of conduct should they be held to, because they are expected to know better.

I think this statement is intended to be referring to community-imposed sanctions rather than to ArbCom, but the same problem theoretically applies in both situations.

Do you think it’s worth making an effort to do something about the problem described in my letter and Sandstein’s statement? If so, I have some ideas about how a system of checks and balances for Wikipedia could work, but I’ll only explain it if you’re interested. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:44, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Your letter seems to reflect the assumption that minority viewpoints are under-represented on Wikipedia. The truth is diametrically different. For virtually any minoritarian/fringe/extreme-fringe viewpoint, Wikipedia is almost guaranteed to contain more coverage than any comparable serious reference work. And I'm talking orders of magnitude more coverage, much of it written by adherents of the minoritarian view in question. For example, our article on AIDS denialism is twice as long as our article on penicillin; I'm not aware of any comparable reference work which so much as mentions a view as far-out as AIDS denialism.

Of all the problems faced by Wikipedia, an under-representation of minortarian viewpoints is not among them. And while incivility undoubtedly drives away good users, I would argue that many more leave after months or years of trying to "collaborate" with single-purpose, agenda-driven, often frankly obsessive editors who are never shown the door out of a misguided sense of priorities. MastCell ^Talk 19:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Wow! Have you had your blood pressure checked recently?--Aspro (talk) 19:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

No; it's somewhere between "unconscious" and "splitting headache". Although according to Wikipedia, a few garlic capsules will fix me up... :P MastCell ^Talk 19:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

My letter has nothing to do with any viewpoint being under-represented or over-represented on Wikipedia, and I don’t understand how you’ve drawn the conclusion that it does. Both my letter and the comment I quoted from Sandstein are about policy being enforced selectively, especially the policy about civility. Civility is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia, and should be required to the same degree from everyone regardless of their viewpoint, or whether that viewpoint is under-represented or over-represented here. Can we please keep this discussion on topic, and not bring up irrelevant tangents like this? --Captain Occam (talk) 19:30, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

You wrote: "The basic problem is that without a system of checks and balances, Wikipedia cannot ensure that people who hold minority viewpoints are treated fairly." I inferred that you were concerned about the suppression of minority viewpoints, and that you considered this the "basic problem". MastCell ^Talk 19:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Even if people who care about unpopular viewpoints being represented here are often driven off because of incivility directed at them, and a lack of action taken about it, there still tend to be enough who stick around that the suppression of the viewpoints themselves probably isn’t a major problem. But that doesn’t make the driving off any less problematic. Continuing with Varoon Arya’s example, the majority of his involvement in Wikipedia was in archaeology articles, and he didn’t become involved in race articles at all until after he’d been active here for more than two years. But because nobody appeared to care much about the incivility that was being directed at him, the project has now lost his contributions to articles about archaeology as well as about race. This is an example of how it isn’t just articles about controversial articles that I think suffer because of this trend; it’s the whole project. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Captain Occam, thank you for your comments. I agree with the quote from Sandstein, although I think not as severe as some people seem to think, and I would be eager to hear ideas in this area. It's probably important to keep in mind that ideas have to be practical, i.e. have to be about changes to policy that we can actually enact and enforce in some reasonable way. "How to get there from here?" should always be at the top of our minds. One aspect of this is that we are really a pretty small community - always have been - and this community does run (and properly so!) on friendship and mutual respect. That necessarily introduces some dangers of subjectivity.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Just to inject my two cents here; the general gist of Occam's comments seems to be that "rules get enforced selectively" on Wikipedia. I wonder Occam, wouldn't you agree that this is just a fact-of-life? Rules get applied selectively in a whole bunch of places and contexts (e.g. academia, the legal system) and they are similarly subject to the "social dynamics", that Sandstein refers to, in those contexts. Is WP really any better or worse than other places where people have to interpret and apply laws and/or rules?

And echoing Jimbo Wales's comments; if it is worse, can you identify how or why it's worse and what practical measures might be taken to make it be better? NickCT (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Wales: I appreciate your open-mindedness about this. What I would suggest is that it might be a good idea for you and other members of the Board of Trustees to appoint an independent body whose job would be to supervise both administrators and ArbCom. The really essential thing is that they be accountable to you and to the Board of Trustees, not to the community. I think this would help eliminate the problem I described in my letter, which is that since administrators and ArbCom are accountable only to the community, biases which exist in the community can end up being reflected in administrative decisions, which in turn propagate this trend by driving away editors who disapprove of it.

This body would not have to be considered a “higher” authority than ArbCom. Going with the analogy of the system of checks and balances in the U.S. Government, I’m imagining you, ArbCom and this new body to occupy roles similar to the president, the Supreme Court, and Congress. ArbCom would still be the uppermost authority for resolving individual disputes, and the purpose of this new body would be just to evaluate the performance of admins and arbitrators. Although since you theoretically have the authority to overrule ArbCom, if this new body were to ever determine that ArbCom has shown improper judgment in some case, they could make also a recommendation that you make an alteration to that aspect of the ArbCom decision. I think this would be an improvement over the current system, where if an arbitrator ever misuses his or her power, the only negative consequence is for them to not be re-elected in the next ArbCom election.

Another benefit of what I’m suggesting is that I think it would improve the accountability of ordinary admins. The way things are at present, admins can use their tools with a certain amount of impunity, because even though bad decisions will usually be undone by other admins, it tends to take a very long and severe series of misuses of the tools before an admin is desysopped by ArbCom. This can involve dozens or hundreds of users being incorrectly blocked, some of whom end up not returning even after their blocks are lifted. The reason why arbitrators can’t evaluate every case of admin misbehavior is because they’re somewhat overloaded as it is, but creating a new body whose job is specifically to evaluate admin and arbitrator behavior would take some of this strain off of ArbCom.

I think the benefit of this body would also extend beyond taking action against administrators or arbitrators who show poor judgement. Just the fact that a body exists that’s devoted to evaluating their performance, and that has the authority to suspend or demote them if their actions ever warrant that, would encourage both admins and arbitrators to show more caution in making sure their decisions show the proper amount of responsibility and neutrality.

In response to NickCT’s comments: I don’t have enough experience with academia or the legal system to say whether Wikipedia is better or worse in this respect than either of those. However, one thing I can say is that I think it’s below-average by the standards of online communities I’ve been involved in, even those that have a comparable number of members. One forum where I’ve been active had around 300,000 members, but its rules were still enforced fairly and consistently because the head admin cared about this a huge amount. He was the sole person responsible for appointing the other senior administrators, and he made sure that all of them would hold the normal admins to a high standard. I think if Mr. Wales were to try something along these lines at Wikipedia, he might be able to obtain a similar benefit. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

^{[citation needed]}. Can you name any current or former sysop who has incorrectly blocked hundreds (or even dozens) of users? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Seconded. Also, I notice how the benevolent dictator model has worked so well wherever it has been tried... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking in particular of Betacommand. The finding of fact from his arbitration case states that within a period of one month, he blocked around 1,000 editors for alleged violations of the username policy. The evidence presented against him lists 16 of those which were subsequently reversed, but the finding of fact implies that the actual number of erroneous blocks may have been much higher than this.

Betacommand was eventually desysopped by ArbCom, which I think was clearly the right decision. But that decision wasn’t made until May 3rd, after misuses of admin tools stretching back at least to the previous November. In cases like this, I think there needs to be a way of evaluating admin behavior which doesn’t require the several-month delay that’s inherent to arbitration.

YellowMonkey is a more current example. Assuming that the initial statement on that page from Serpent’s Choice is accurate, in a period of six months YellowMonkey has blocked over 80 users with whom he has had no interaction other than the block itself, either to warn the user beforehand or even to put the “blocked” template in their user talk. Most commonly the reason he’s listed in the block logs of these users has been “sock”, although he’s blocked them without an SPI or checkuser, and without any indication of who the purported sockmaster is. In YellowMonkey’s case, ArbCom took no action because YM stopped participating in Wikipedia on November 24. I suppose that’s appropriate, but it makes me wonder how long it will take for his inappropriate use of admin tools to be dealt with if he ever resumes it. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:40, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Under the system that I’m proposing, this body whose job is to review admin conduct would have warned Betacommand after the first several times that he blocked users based on the username policy when they weren’t violating it, and would have warned YellowMonkey after the first several times he blocked users with “sock” as the block reason without an SPI or checkuser, without putting a block template in their user talk, and without specifying who the sockmaster was. If either of these admins had continued the same conduct even after being warned, this body would have desysopped them, most likely temporarily at first, and then for longer and longer periods if the misuse of their admin tools continued even after they were reinstated. That’s the system we use while dealing with vandalism—we don’t allow someone to keep repeatedly vandalizing pages for several months before anything is done about it. I don’t think it makes sense that Wikipedia is more lenient about misuse of admin powers than it is about vandalism. Vandalism can be reverted by anyone, but inappropriate blocks require another admin to undo them, and even then the user who was erroneously blocked is sometimes so discouraged from participating that they don’t come back even when the block is lifted. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Agreeing with Jimbo's principle that persons in authority on Wikipedia ought to be held to a higher standard, I would suggest a different response to the problem raised by the ArbCom case on Race and intelligence. The response I suggest is that persons who claim to be editors of an encyclopedia (rather than commenters on a political blog) learn to look up scholarly sources, and use reliable sources when editing Wikipedia, especially when editing articles on topics that the sources show are contentious topics in the world outside Wikipedia. Most of the 6,906,835 articles on Wikipedia are still in dire need of improvement by better sources, as a goal set in the Wikimedia Foundation strategic plan acknowledges. The best way to increase participation by editors who know sources and use sources according to the best standards of scholarship is to make sure the Wikipedia's leadership is held to the high standard of digging into sources and checking to make sure that Wikipedia article content doesn't put undue weight on fringe viewpoints found only in questionable sources. Much work needs to be done in this aspect of quality improvement on Wikipedia. The best way to encourage volunteers to do this work is for leaders to lead by example by taking the time and effort to look up reliable sources and check what those say, and what the overall weight of emphasis in the published sources is. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 02:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

If what you’re suggesting is that ArbCom ought to familiarize themselves with the source material for every topic about which there’s an arbitration case, I don’t think that’s going to happen. ArbCom is already short on time; there’s no way they would have time for this in addition for everything else they need to do. The fact that they don’t have time for this is one of the reasons why ArbCom never rules on content. This also wouldn’t address the problem of users being held to differing standards of civility, which is a completely separate issue from who’s right as far as content is concerned. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

User:WeijiBaikeBianji/IntelligenceCitations (the list you spam that everywhere you can) are some sources that you personally like and they usually share your personal POV not all reliable sources about the topic. --Dezidor (talk) 00:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Wales, before this thread gets archived I would appreciate you letting me know what you think of my suggestion. You told me you were eager to hear ideas about this, so now that you’ve heard my idea it would helpful to let me know whether you think it’s worthwhile. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I think it merits more discussion, for sure. I have some doubts/questions about the precise structure you've put forward, but I didn't take you to be saying you had found the perfect solution but rather to be opening a dialogue (with me, but also with the broader community) about how we might think about governance structures which would deliver more consistency as well as faster justice.

I'm not sure that a body tasked in the way that you have described it would be the right way forward. It just sounds like another layer on top of what we already have. But perhaps I just haven't thought through it clearly enough.

As an alternative, imagine the ArbCom as continuing in a "supreme court" mode, so that the new body (or bodies) don't sit in judgment of ArbCom, but rather a group of lower courts (or juries) which can act more quickly, and whose selection is somehow randomized to prevent them becoming politicized. (For example, I would not like to see a Climate Change Court, unless it were composed of admins chosen somehow randomly, because otherwise it would just become a focus of political wrangling itself.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I too agree with Sandsteins observations,"..the main problem with policy enforcement is not that it is either too strict or too lenient, but that it is conducted unevenly". Here is the problem. Consensus is the ultimate authority. Consensus in wikipedia above all else is political. Rules are based on observed truths. How do truths and politics mix?--scuro (talk) 04:13, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

This must have already been brought up

Lets hope that Wikipedia can figure out ways to increase female editing participation as was discussed in yesterdays New York Times here. I think the article touches on some of the reasons why we have far fewer female editors than males, but there must be more to the story.--MONGO 03:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

There was a discussion right here on this subject in mid-January. Stephen 04:43, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

In all seriousness, I do not see how you can "attract more female editors". I agree we need more female editors but the current system really doesn't attract many women for a number of reasons. Unless you offer some sort of special incentive wikipedia will remain as masculine as it always has been.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

There was a discussion on this topic, as Stephen pointed out. I wasn't involved, but I do know what resulted.-RHM22 (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Not to open up this can of worms any further, or to play the devil's advocate, but I really dislike all of this "let's attract women to WP" sentiment. Perhaps it's my general distaste for affirmative action, but it strikes me that WP is open to anyone with a computer and an internet connection, who chooses to participate. If women aren't participating, it's because they are choosing not to.

The Time's article makes no real effort to explain why women are less prevalent on WP beyond this -

“ Jane Margolis, co-author of a book on sexism in computer science, “Unlocking the Clubhouse,” argues that Wikipedia is experiencing the same problems of the offline world, where women are less willing to assert their opinions in public. ”

I'd ask, is it WP's fault that "women are less willing to assert their opinions"? Is WP obligated to adapt to compensate for this unwillingness....? I say no.

Now, before I open myself to reams of hate mail, let me temper the above by saying I think it would be a great thing if more women did participate on WP. I just don't think WP should have to change to make that happen...... NickCT (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

So if, I'm understanding you right, you think that it would be a good thing, but you also think that nothing should be done to encourage it (?) --FormerIP (talk) 19:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

What must be understood is that women's brains are functionally different than men's. [6] What is critical in any environment is that the environment supports who in habits it. Wikipedia is constantly changing, and not a static environment that has to be maintained as "it always was". Women don't choose to be some way, they've evolved this way as have men. If Wikipedia was designed by men then its worth looking at its structures to see how better it can accommodate both sexes. For example dispute resolution often depends on a short statement and a diff. For many women the situation cannot be explained in a diff. Women may be will be gathering certain kinds of subtle information men may not pick up. I have no idea how Wikipedia can change to adapt to women. I've always worked with men on an equal basis and defend my right to do so, so would have to think of this more. Online collaborative communities of which Wikipedia was one of the first have to deal with these issues as they evolve. Of course this has nothing to do with intelligence. We all know women are more intelligent than men.:o) (olive (talk) 19:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC))

@FormerIP - Yep. That's right. I really feel the onus is on women to participate, not on WP to try and adapt itself to appeal more to women. WP should only really be obligated to ensure there are no obvious barriers to entry based on sex/ethnicity/religion etc... As far as I can tell, there are none. Given that few people are offering many concrete examples of policies or practices that exclude women, I figure others can't identify obvious barriers to entry either.

@olive - re "For example ..... cannot be explained in a diff." I think we're free to engage in dispute resolution in any form we wish, no? re "We all know women are more intelligent than men" I'd dispute, but my girlfriend might read my post and then I'd get pummeled. I know my place... :-( NickCT (talk) 22:35, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"We all know women are more intelligent than men." Mmm, and you removed my comment Jimbo for being "sexist".....♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:50, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this discussion isn't going anywhere perhaps not here you might discuss at a more relevant noticeboard. Off2riorob (talk) 23:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

The apathy displayed here by a few commentators indicates they are unwilling to make adaptations that might rectify this situation. All I did was ask what we might do...and the responses are generally unconcerned, callous and clueless. I'll work on some ideas after discussing this matter privately with the dozen female former editors I know that have been run out of this website.--MONGO 01:12, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I am with you, Mongo. This discussion was embarrassing, and those who expressed such opinions should be ashamed of themselves. They won't be - and that's a big part of the problem.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, my intent wasn't to open a can of worms as one editor visually suggested, nor to platform this matter here per se, though it really doesn't fit a noticeboard. Anyone who has been around as long as I have knows full well that male editors are more interested in the project...but 15% female involvement (as shown in the NYT piece) is something that needs to be addressed. I can say that I have heard from a few female editors that they find the discussions with some of the males to be intimidating and that they find some of the males to be rude, condescending and even cruel. I have heard a few females complain that Wikipedia is a "man's world"..I have never heard a single male Wikipedian complain that the opposite is the case...now some of this is a reflexion of the English speaking world...amd I cannot say what the gender breakdown is at the Spanish or German Wikis...but the 15% caused alarm bells to ring for me (I assume the NYT piece was about en.wiki)...I would have guessed 30% (which is still too low) but 15% represents a problem. So, I ask myself, not being female, what I can do to maximize the interests here for females, and ask other males to do the same. But more importantly, how do we retain our female editors and encourage them to explain to ogres such as I what we can do to expand female participation.--MONGO 03:15, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

• Does it hurt women more when their stuff is deleted? Did the rise of the deletionists drive them all away in greater numbers than men? There are 43,051 articles on the Recipe Wiki [7]. The wiki for the Twilight series has 934 pages. [8] Women are editing things they like. Just some of those things aren't welcomed on Wikipedia anymore, so they are shifting their attention elsewhere. Dream Focus 01:54, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Women suffer more than men do from a given painful stimulus.^[1] Hurt feelings from social rejection, and hurt from physical pain are, neurologically speaking, the same thing. ^[2] So it is possible that women hurt more than men do from perceived rejection - but the research on that hasn't been done yet, as far as I know. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Women also might not want to edit at a place where regulars suggest that Twilight and cooking are the two things most women care about.--AniMate 03:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Mongo. I'd be very interested in discussing this further and in seeing if I can help arrive at solution. I assume that no one took my comments lightly ..(well except for the little joke at the end). Brain function is something I deal with in my teaching, and understanding how it plays a vital in human interactions is at the basis of designing an environment that supports both sexes. I also have a strong interest in how online communities develop and evolve. Thanks (olive (talk) 02:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC))

While I hear stuff like this quite often, I'm not so sure it's as black and white as women being smarter or men more assertive. Everybody has different talents and different things that interest us. It's true that men and women tend to gravitate in different directions. Men are often thought to be more oriented to the technical aspects of things and women more toward the creative, but in reality that's not always the case. I've met many women who are mechanics, fighter pilots, engineers, and other professions that are typically associated with men, and visa-versa. People are as varied as they are many, and what attracts one may ward off another. It is for this reason that I have to question whether or not it's a good idea to try to attract users based upon such a broad spectrum, (ie: race, sex, religion, etc...).

Instead, I think it would be better to try to attract users based upon what specifically they can offer to the project. Users with a talent for copy editing seem to be in high demand. Users who are interested in writing, or doing research (secondary) on a topic will always be a great asset. So are users with a talent for the sometimes ruthless art of editing content. Added to that is something rather new in writing environments, editors who are well versed in formatting codes, mark-ups, programs and other computer magic.

Now I can't speak as to what specifically will attract women to Wikipedia. Nor can I speak for anybody else for that matter. I can only say that what attracted me here is the oppotunity to make information, which I have spent a lifetime collecting, readily available to to anyone. It is a very rewarding feeling to know that I may possibly have helped that kid out there somewhere who wants to be a pilot someday, or a scientist who needs to build a laser, or helped the next director who will re-make the movie "Top Gun" to achieve some level of realism. In much the same way, it's also rewarding to be able to help out other users when they need it. It's nice to gather expertise and then not let it got to waste. The way i see it, unless you're a troll, spammer, or public figure, Wikipedia doesn't really have much else to offer in the way of attracting users.

On the flip-side, I think there is also a lot to ward off users, new and old alike. Cpt. Occam brings up some good points about civility in the section above. I think we should strive to be friendlier than the standard internet-site-comment-section. (Although I think it is up to the community, and in particular, those who would normally just stand by and watch but say nothing, to speak up and help set the level of decorum that is tolerable.) To those like me, who are not very adept at computers, Wikipedia can be very intimidating at first. I'm often confounded at things like wikimark-up, and most of what I've learned so far came from looking at edit screens to see how someone else did it. The list of policy and guideline pages is very large and complex. (I tend to lean toward small and direct.) Something like a parent-policy page --one to three pages, with a paragraph summarizing each policy and demonstrating how they interrelate-- would've been helpful to me. I don't know if it's possible to make the environment more user-friendly, but that would surely make it more attractive to new users, male and female alike.

In the end, I think it is our personal interests, experiences and talants that attract most of us here. There is a subject here for just about everybody, and the rewarding feeling helping out is very powerful. Maybe what we should really be concerned with is what drives people away. Zaereth (talk) 02:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I get the distinct sense that my light hearted comment about women being more intelligent than men, and that should have been taken in the context of the comment and the page I linked to, wasn't. Brain functioning and the page I linked to which describes why brains function differently, clearly makes the implied point that intelligence has nothing to do with any of this. I assumed editors interested in the topic and this discussion would read the page I linked to. Maybe not. Teachers are familiar with this topic and as a teacher I assumed a bottom line of awareness which may not have been appropriate. Not only does a good teacher have to know male and female children learn differently but that every child has complex learning styles that must be understood to teach effectively. This isn't simple and multiple ways of looking at learning and brain functioning could possibly help us set up something ground breaking. I agree with the editor above as well.(olive (talk) 02:48, 2 February 2011 (UTC))

In the end, none of this is going to work. Those interested in it should go out there and change the world, then wikipedia's base will change; it's not gonna happen the other way around. We've come a long way from my Grandma's perspective — "Money is for men" — but it didn't happen because some club started teaching women how to run a bank-account (they knew that already anyways). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:40, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

@Mongo - Re "The apathy displayed here by a few commentators indicates they are unwilling to make adaptations that might rectify this situation" - Well, I hope I'm not part of those callous and clueless "few commentators". I just don't understand why affirmative action folks can't accept that maybe there are different strokes for different folks. Sometimes subjects appeal to guys that don't appeal to gals and vice versa. It doesn't necessarily reflect negatively on either gender or the subject in question.

My message is simple. Don't generalize, of course. Try your best to make sure you're not discriminating, yes! Treat everyone equally, to be sure. But at the same time, don't try to force equal participation from all groups of peoples in everything. You'll end up trying to force square pegs through round holes.

If that opinion makes me a sexist pig, then I guess I'm guilty as charged......

@olive - Re "my light hearted comment about women being more intelligent than men, and that should have been taken in the context of the comment and the page I linked to, wasn't." - For the record, I took it as a light hearted comment. Peoples' nerves become so frayed on this subject. I don't understand why...

@Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 - Re "Those interested in it should go out there and change the world," - Agree. This issue is much larger than WP. Unlikely much is going to get done here.

@Off2riorod - Re "you might discuss at a more relevant noticeboard." - Probably right... I'm going to cease cluttering Jimbo's talk page. NickCT (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

If this is going to be continued elsewhere, please post a link here. LadyofShalott 04:12, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Ya'll love talking to Jimbo, but you may also want to try the gendergap mailing list, or something. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 04:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I would have to say that its more embarrassing Jimbo that you and Sue think you can manipulate what proportion of editors edit wikipedia. If you are serious about it (I agree ideally we'd have equal male and female editors) then issuing a public statement without actually doing anything to attract women to the project isn't going to magically improve the percentage to 25%. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:08, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

It would be embarrassing if we thought that at all. Of course we don't. If you want to be a more effective advocate, I recommend that you start by assuming good faith and paying attention to the facts of reality.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Could it simply be that this Wikipedia is an area where men choose to volunteer more frequently than women do at present ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 14:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

RE: Prem Rawat

Whilst I agree with the action you took regarding the lead, I would give a general caution regarding the rather curiously controversial nature of the article (two separate ArbCom cases, at least two formal mediations, several informal mediations (one of which I oversaw) and countless RfC's and general debates, along with the Jossi controversy). In fact, the mediation that I settled regarded the placement of a five word sentence pertaining to a particular interpretation of Rawat's teachings. Just a cautionary statement! :) Ronk01 talk 04:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I made my one and only edit, and I'm going to steer clear of it now. (I haven't even looked yet to see if my edit survived.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)