Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Marine 69-71/Autographs

User:Marine 69-71/Autographs

User:Marine 69-71/Autographs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)​

WP:NOTWEBHOST violation GrayStorm^{(Complaints Dept.|My Contribs.)} 04:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. What, specifically, is the basis for the proposed deletion? In what way does it improve the project to delete this page? This user is an administrator with eighty thousand edits over the course of twenty years. If there's anything here that is actually disruptive to the functioning of the project, it is people who have a bizarre obsession with prowling other people's userspace to find "incorrect" things and delete them. Since this has literally zero bearing on the functioning of Wikipedia, my only possible conclusion is that there is some kind of jouissance derived from the act of destroying a thing that someone else cares about. Who gives a damn?

jp×g🗯️ 06:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep also not sure how we benefit from deleting this. We aren't this strict about enforcing NOTWEBHOST against long-time editors and we have nothing to gain from becoming stricter. Elli (talk | contribs) 07:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Delete specifically a clear breach of policy: WP:NOTWEBHOST, to quote: "user pages do not serve as personal webpages, blogs, or repositories for large amounts of material irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia" and "Please upload only files that are used (or could be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else (e.g., personal photos) will be deleted." The content has no encyclopaedic value and there is no benefit in its retention. Mztourist (talk) 07:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I am asking, again, a very simple direct question: in what way does it improve the project to delete this page? If you are unwilling to explain this, in clear simple language, your proposed action should not be done. jp×g🗯️ 07:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  It improves the project by making it entirely clear that those who enforce the rules are also subject to them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:00, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  It is disruptive and pointless to WP:RAGPICK people regardless of whether they are administrators. I would be saying the same thing here even if he were a disgraced former sysop. Is there an actual, concrete reason why this page endangers the project? It is not libelous, defamatory, or infringing of any law. jp×g🗯️ 08:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Ensuring that the same rules apply to everyone isn't 'disruptive'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:11, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I completely agree with AndyTheGrump. User:JPxG I'm astounded that you are an admin if you don't believe that policies should be enforced. Mztourist (talk) 08:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm astounded if you have never read WP:5P. jp×g🗯️ 09:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Mztourist please add me to your list of admins who astound you. I'm here to help build an encyclopedia, and the only reason I'm an admin is so I can help other people do that too. Sometimes that means enforcing the rules. Sometimes it means looking the other way. RoySmith (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  The same rules do apply to everyone. I am trying to apply the actual rules, not wikilawyer them to antagonize other editors.

  I am aware that you believe the policy says the page should be deleted. I am asking if you have any actual reason why you think the policy says that, or why you think it should be interpreted this way. jp×g🗯️ 09:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia's deletion policy says: Reasons for deletion include, but are not limited to, the following ... Any other use of the ... user namespace that is contrary to the established separate policy for that namespace. The established separate PAG for that namespace is Wikipedia:User pages; it is however a guideline, not a policy. In that guideline, Wikipedia:User pages § Excessive unrelated content says: In general, if you have material that you do not wish others to edit, ... it should be placed on a personal web site, and has the following: WP:UP#GOALS (Unrelated content includes, but is not limited to: A weblog recording your non-Wikipedia activities. ...) and WP:USERBIO (Unrelated content includes, but is not limited to: ... excessive personal information unrelated to Wikipedia). WP:DELETEOTHER says Use of a user page as a personal web page unconnected with Wikipedia's mission may be a speedy deletion criterion and other pages [not requiring speedy deletion] likely to require deletion (or where remedial action is not taken) may be submitted to deletion discussion. The policy provision WP:NOTWEBHOST says Personal web pages are often speedily deleted under criterion U5. When the guideline on user pages speaks about deleting excessive unrelated content in the form of personal web pages, it elaborates on NOTWEBHOST, and is fully supported by the policy. The policy and the guideline are in union, and form a functional whole. This means that there exists a reason to delete this page as it is a use of user namespace contrary to the established policy and the established guideline for the user namespace.

  This does not mean that we are obligated to delete the page. We can just say that we would like to tolerate this specific page.—Alalch E. 10:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  This is, more or less, what I mean to say. Neither the policy nor the guideline give an explicit requirement that any specific page be deleted: only pages that are deemed by consensus to be "excessive", "large", et cetera. It's obviously not forbidden to delete the page, but in order to do so, an argument has to be made for why. jp×g🗯️ 18:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  There's more policy stuff, which I've quoted below, and I'll quote it again here for coherence, so forgive me: The content would have been related (getting to know something about a fellow editor is not unrelated) and not-excessive (to the extent that the content helps other editors understand who the person editing alongside them is, the content is not excessive) only if it had been: Limited autobiographical content (WP:UPYES) and a limited amount of personal information (perhaps a short biography) and a freely licensed tasteful personal photograph or two [which] are usually allowed if the page reasonably complies with other requirements. This is the same as notability. WP:N is a guideline. For a given non-notable article it can also be said that it is not forbidden to delete the page, it is not forbidden not to delete the page, and to delete the page, an argument has to be for why the topic is non-notable, and consensus has to form for the communal decision-making process to result in a deletion. This content is not limited autobiographical content, it is clearly expansive autobiographical content, and the amount of information is not limited, is not akin to a short biography, and many personal photographs have been added, in fact a rather expansive gallery. Clearly, there is strong policy-based grounds for deletion. Then again, I am not saying something will fall on our heads if we don't form a consensus to delete. But when you say if you have any actual reason why you think the policy says that, well, yes, there very clearly an actual reason to think the policy says that.—Alalch E. 23:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. This sort of discussion is certainly in-bounds, IMHO. On the merits, this is none of our business. And you guys stop throwing spitballs at each other. This is a serious thing we're considering, policing userspace for things to delete. This sort of thing has been going on for a while and it's often a reprehensible failure of good faith. We normally let experienced editors decorate their userspace within reason. We most certainly let folks have their say in formal discussion without being astounded others have variances with others' rigid views on policy. BusterD (talk) 10:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  "within reason". The user already has a lengthy userpage, together with his own page: Tony Santiago. This page is a repository for large amounts of material irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia. Mztourist (talk) 10:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Testing those two words are exactly what we're discussing now. It may even turn out that consensus agrees wth your position. In the meantime, there's no reason to badger good faith contributors to the discussion. BusterD (talk) 18:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  You clearly feel free to add comments to good faith contributors to the discussion, so I don't see why I shouldn't also. Mztourist (talk) 19:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete Supermario applies. Not just U5 but U5 rendered as wide as the canyon. SerialNumber54129 10:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  U5 doesn't apply in and of itself because it is reserved to non-contributors. But when the same pages are found among contributors' user pages, it does not mean that what is "unrelated" and "excessive" necessarily becomes "related" and "within reasonable bounds". The content would have been related and not-excessive only if it had been: Limited autobiographical content (WP:UPYES) and a limited amount of personal information (perhaps a short biography) and a freely licensed tasteful personal photograph or two [which] are usually allowed if the page reasonably complies with other requirements (WP:DELETEOTHER). —Alalch E. 10:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  No. In case you were not aware, "In and of itself" is synonymous with exclusivity in a discrete case, and I at no point indicated that was my thinking. Indeed, Supermario implies something beyond, or after, U5, as in meta-U5. I'm afraid you need a basic grasp of Latin in this game. And as for uncollapsing JPxG's near personal attacks: BusterD's comment vis a vis spitballs is far more useful, even if he and I disagree over the merits of the specific case. SerialNumber54129 13:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  No offence, btw. SerialNumber54129 14:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)Struck in this edit SerialNumber54129 14:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  U5 is only for non-contributors. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOT. Other editors above state that this is none of anyone's business. That is a faulty argument which does not address policy. TarnishedPath^talk 15:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  What WP:NOTWEBHOST actually says is this:

  Wikipedians have individual user pages, but they should be used primarily to present information relevant to work on the encyclopedia. Limited autobiographical information is allowed, but user pages do not serve as personal webpages, blogs, or repositories for large amounts of material irrelevant to collaborating on Wikipedia.

  The subjectivity of the language is deliberate -- the intention is for editors to assess whether any given user page is "primarily" relevant to the project, whether any given information is "limited", whether there is a "large amount" or a "small amount".

  The policy does not tell us a universal, black-and-white declaration that all pages above length N or about subjects XYZ are forbidden: it tells us to discuss it. Referencing the policy itself is begging the question: "does taking this action actually improve the project?" jp×g🗯️ 18:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  @JPxG, I have no idea how you could imply that page is "[l]imited autobiographical information". TarnishedPath^talk 15:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete Respectfully, a list of people that have given this user their autograph is as blatant as it gets. We typically give experienced editors some leniency, but this is well over the line. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Delete - as using wikipedia for web hosting. -- Whpq (talk) 17:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - If this material was actually part of the user page, instead of a subpage of the user page, would we have a problem with it? Of course not. Not sure what this action accomplishes. Carrite (talk) 17:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - (edit conflict) We allow long-time users with a demonstrated commitment to being WP:HERE some space to talk about themselves in their own userspace (and to, e.g. gather lists of wikilinks about subjects with which one has a COI, or a list of articles you might like to work on, or a list of articles you enjoy, etc.). This is buried deep in userspace, on a subpage where nobody would even come across it unless they were digging around other people's userspaces looking for makework. Now, in addition to hosting this userspace page, we also host a meta discussion about this userspace page. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  For reference, the userpage itself is 34,452 bytes, this MfD is currently 14,164 bytes, and the AN/I thread is 30,984. jp×g🗯️ 18:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  There's an ANI thread? Of course there is. I'll bet we're at bolded assertions by now. BusterD (talk) 18:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  Hopefully we'll come to a keep outcome and this meta discussion will demonstrate to history we can reasonably disagree about keeping non-contentious, non-promotional autobiographical material about our contributors. I know there's a policy, folks. I have read it. Every single contributor to this discussion has a stake in the outcome, because all of us are going to cease our wikipedia-ing eventually. How will readers in the future know anything about the human beings involved? Because we left clues. All those who want humanity to suffer for the deletion of this page, do what you must. BusterD (talk) 18:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  "non-promotional"? seriously? This page is an egocentric personal blog. The creator already has a lengthy Userpage and a WP page: Tony Santiago. How does this page advance the project? Mztourist (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep this page has been in a similar state since 2006. I thought it was plausible for keeping based on its age and high engagement of the creator before I saw that he has a Wikipedia article, but since he does that turns it into a solid keep. Some (not all but we don't require perfection) of this page is potentially relevant to a Wikipedia article. And we can decide to keep a page like this without setting too much precedent as there aren't many long time editors who created similar pages 18 years ago and have Wikipedia articles. Skynxnex (talk) 18:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  How is it relevant to a Wikipedia article? Mztourist (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think it's essential for a keep but, for example, Tony Santiago includes a photo, commons:File:Tony_with_Representatives2.jpg, from an event that is also on the Autographs page, which includes an alternative photo, commons:File:Tony_and_McClintock.jpg (arguably the one that is only on the autograph would be a better fit for the article). But this page does have a collecting photo and notes about the subject of an existing (or potential) Wikipedia article, some of which could serve as a basis for expansion. Skynxnex (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete. This is clearly a WP:NOT#WEBHOST case, as this material is purely of personal interest, and has no practical relation to working on the encyclopedia, either as a content per se or as inter-editor communication. No the first time this editor has been reminded to not use WP as a cloud drive for WP-unrelated material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep, basically per Rhododendrites. I'll add that this is someone with over 60% of their (many thousands of) edits to mainspace. They're not anywhere near misusing wikipedia as a web host. The photos, specifically, may well count, though. Please upload only files that are used (or could be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else (e.g., personal photos) will be deleted. is much more explicit. -- asilvering (talk) 23:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Delete as a webhost violation. Also while the claims made about living persons are fairly innocuous, we really should be encouraging editors to make so many claims about living persons without a good reason to do so. Nil Einne (talk) 01:22, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'd add that I don't know why editors keep bringing up disk space. Perhaps in 2022 or something editors thought we should avoid using Wikipedia as a webhost due to hosting costs. But frankly since I joined in 2005 or so it was a non issue at least when it came to text. I've never thought that NOTWEBHOST had anything to do with disk space and I haven't see anyone who supports deletion say disk space has anything to do with it. Frankly although I supported but didn't take part much in the campaign against editors using Commons (maybe Wikipedia slightly) to post self created nudes and other such adult content, even in that case where we were sometimes talking about videos, disk space seemed to be at best a very very minor concern. The problem with ensuring webhost violations comply with WP:BLP, WP:COPYVIO etc is however a big factor; including editors unnecessarily needing to review such pages when they don't serve a good purpose. Nil Einne (talk) 01:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete. Fostering an appearance that volunteer editors are in fact rewarded with a privilege of hosting voluminous personal pages on this extremely popular website, using the website's infrastructure and conveniences, makes the entire project look like its participants are not quite as serious about the project's values as they try to make it seem, seen from the outside. It's not the right look. While, within the community, most editors probably don't feel like any given colleague does not deserve this privilege in return for their time and energy spent on the project, this is not what Wikipedia communicates outward and is incompatible with the simple concept of a Wikipedia volunteer. There has to be a standard and the standard exists: WP:UPNOT. This page is too much.—Alalch E. 01:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  That's a good argument. As a long time contributor, I have a harder time seeing things this way. I appreciate your presenting this viewpoint. BusterD (talk) 01:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. Within reasonable leeway for a long-standing contributor. Pageviews are near zero and contradict notions of WEBHOSTing. The attempted policing, aggressively, of things like this is far more damaging to the community than any good that can come of it. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:16, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep matters related to the user, explaining the user's interests, in user space - why not? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
• Delete - Policy is pretty clear on it, WP:WEBHOST does not make an exception for tenure or status. Those arguments to keep are baseless WP:ILIKEIT. When one side is based on policy and one side feelings, the decision is clear. PackMecEng (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep WP:WEBHOST does state Limited autobiographical information is allowed. The policy is, however, unclear on how this is defined; but the associated guideline WP:UPNOT clearly states The Wikipedia community is generally tolerant and offers fairly wide latitude in applying these guidelines to regular participants. With no clear definition in policy, and a statement of tolerance in the associated guideline for regular users, I agree with Rhododendrites. ResonantDis_tortion 13:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  The issue with that interpretation is no regular editor would fall under than then. Its also hard to say that such an extensive page falls under limited or non-promotional. PackMecEng (talk) 14:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Those quoting WP:WEBHOST re. autobiographical information being permitted must, if they expect that argument to hold, also explain why the page is used primarily to present information relevant to work on the encyclopedia. As PME explains, otherwise they are non-policy based assertions. SerialNumber54129 15:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well, as has been pointed out like ten times, the policy is written explicitly to permit discretion, so it is entirely up to us to argue why one outcome is actually better the other. That is the policy-based argument.

  The argument for keeping pages like this is that it's profoundly uncomfortable and alienating to be actively prevented from having my fellow editors communicate with me about what they consider important about themselves (and vice versa). It creates a hostile, unpleasant environment. This actively drives away volunteer editors. This destroys the encyclopedia.

  The argument for deleting it is... what? Deliberately going out of our way to interpret policy in the most hostile way possible just seems like a deeply unserious approach to running a sustainable collaborative project. jp×g🗯️ 02:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Interesting perspective, personally all I need to know about another editor is do they edit fairly and competently? Their sex, age, ethnicity, likes and dislikes etc. are completely irrelevant. There's no support for your claims that deleting excessive and wholly irrelevant personal information "creates a hostile, unpleasant environment" that "actively drives away volunteer editors" and "destroys the encyclopedia." Mztourist (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Ha! Those voting delete are actively destroying the encyclopedia. Wow that is quite the hyperbolic and needlessly inflammatory comment. Then ignoring all the explanations for why the policy applies and just going with the bad faith assumptions that everyone is deliberately going out of their way to interpret policy in the most hostile way. Lame. PackMecEng (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep Perhaps the nominator can explain why they are using their userpage to tell us they are Roman Catholic, white and nerdy, that they drink green tea, that they signed someone's guest book, and have a supposed painting of themselves (which, obviously, isn't)? If the nominator believes Marine 69-71 is misusing Wikipedia as a webhost, perhaps they will be so kind as to remove the webhost stuff off of their userpage? I fail to see the point of this MfD. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  Does the nominator expect us to believe they are a whale or a whaler? It's unclear from the portrait on the userpage. Am I ragpicking too much? How would I even know? BusterD (talk) 21:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I'd just like to point out to all those referring to a longstanding editor who is WP:HERE, his contribution stats: [1] show 61.1% on the mainspace, 19.9% on his userspace and 10.2% on usertalk. Mztourist (talk) 06:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  That seems to be pretty obviously HERE to me, especially as many of their userspace edits are drafting articles that they later published. Elli (talk | contribs) 06:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  That's possible of course, his userpage is 4th most edited after his 3 "workshop"/sandboxes. Also worth noting he has a 5.5% page deletion rate. Mztourist (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. Is this in compliance wihth WP:NOTWEBHOST? Probably not. But demanding that it be deleted is just being spiteful. It's not hurting anything, and yes, people who have been editing productively for 20 years have earned the right to host harmless things in their userspace. My user page is a political statement. Are you going to want to delete that next? Perhaps User:Bishonen/Bishzilla RFA needs to be purged? What about User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Shave the Wales, or for that matter Wikipedia:Best of BJAODN? Get a life, people. RoySmith (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Satire about the project is different from a user's autograph collection, which you have acknowledged is "probably not" in compliance with WP:NOTWEBHOST. Mztourist (talk) 17:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOTWEBHOST. I'm not seeing how this benefits or improves the project, does it benefit Marine 69-71, of course it does, he's got a free WEBHOST here. If you want to make a personal webpage, please use one of the many free providers on the Internet or any hosting included with your Internet service provider, and then post a link on your userpage to that webpage, like other long-standing contributors and notable admins have. David Gerard and GorillaWarfare spring to mind. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• What are we doing here? This page is fine; I believe it to pass NOTWEBHOST. SWinxy (talk) 01:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep per Gerda Arendt. I stumbled upon this one. My rule of thumb is that if it's under a user subpage, is does not matter what's on it. I am well aware of everything on Wikipedia:User pages. It goes against my opinion. But seriously, who cares? You're going to strip this from a United States Marine veteran who has long been a net positive to the encyclopedia? "But the rules!" The rules we made? To stop only the people who are WP:NOTHERE? That's the only reason why these rules exist.

Guys, this page gets ~0 to 7 views a day. Respect your elders. This is a moral perspective. Point me to any rule under the sun and I will happily ignore it. Panini! • 🥪 17:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Weird. PackMecEng (talk) 11:35, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware a soapbox isn't in typically in my wheelhouse. But this one broke my heart. Sorry. Panini! • 🥪 19:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

In this panini, the green herb ain't oregano... SerialNumber54129 15:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Keep I am invoking WP:IAR here. Keeping it is absolutely harmless, and it is perfectly fine to showcase one's achievements. Ca ^{talk to me!} 15:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep- Yes, I am the creator of the nominated page. I have been a contributor to Wikipedia for many years now. I have written over 800 articles and have donated hundreds of photographs because I love this project. Thanks to my work in Wikipedia I have received recognitions from the government, pentagon and so on. I never sought any type of recognition because all I wanted to do is share my knowledge.

As a Wikipedian author, I always wanted to be transparent and that is why my user page is as it is. I wrote my subpage as a private source of inspiration for me. The nominated page has been there for many years now. If I broke a rule, don't you think I would have been warned years ago?

I have hundreds of articles in my watchlist. I am not a deletions person, I use my tools to correct any vandalism going because those are the people who are hurting our positive contributions. Therefore, I kindly ask that the nominated page, which isn't a public one, be kept. Tony the Marine (talk) 04:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Read WP:UP. All userpages and subpages are public. If you want a "private source of inspiration" keep it on your own computer. Mztourist (talk) 16:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add that I have posted in my user page the accomplishments and recognitions which I received for my work in Wikipedia to encourage my fellow Wikipedian brother and sisters. I want them to know that their is important because if all of these positive things happened to me it can also happen to them.

Jimbo Wales founder of Wikipedia wrote the following: "The President of the Puerto Rican Senate, the Honorable Kenneth McClintock presented this resolution honoring my Puerto Rican related work in Wikipedia on behalf of the government. This may very well be the first time in history that a government recognizes someone for his work in Wikipedia".

"Wow that's really amazing and wonderful! Congrats!" Tony the Marine (talk) 01:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Please explain how exactly your autograph collection encourages other users? This is just all about your ego and sense of self-importance. Mztourist (talk) 03:27, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• keep all of the good reasons already taken so I'll just say per above. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi! To clarify, while no good reasons have been presented at all, there has been a lot of chest beating about meany-meany-big-blue-meanies. Cheers! SerialNumber54129 19:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

MfD has always been a place where sometimes User:A will make an official snipe against User:B. They usually appear to come completely out of the blue, but on deep diving there’s often an old antagonistic glancing interaction. These are very hard to find with very long-term active Wikipedians. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)