Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People

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Assessments

I'm a little confused about Wikipedia:WikiProject_World's_Oldest_People#Assessment for the 370 or so articles at Category:WikiProject World's Oldest People articles. We have a Top/High/Mid/Low structure. I'm most curious about the individual biographies. There's no right or wrong answer here so I'm just throwing out a starting flag. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I've included the basic suggested assessments from the Wikiproject priority assessnents in each section below to help figure out which articles go where. These can be adapted specifically for this project, which is something other projects have done. Ca2james (talk) 23:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I've incorporated your versions that as they make more sense. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Top importance

I think this should be limited to Template:Longevity and the whole issues and records lines, along with Supercentenarian. Portal:Supercentenarians could use some work. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia.

In this case, I'm thinking the template, Longevity, Gerontology, Supercentenarian, and Centenarian, the Terminology and Issues lines in the template, as well as the List of the verified oldest people, List of the verified oldest men, and List of the verified oldest women articles belong here. These form the core of the articles in this project, and I'd expect the descriptive articles in this category as well as these particular records and issues in a print encyclopaedia. Ca2james (talk) 23:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Incorporated. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

High importance

I think we can put the birth and death and the births and deaths by year articles. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Subject contributes a depth of knowledge

I disagree that that the births and deaths by year articles belong here; I think they're more Low importance. In this category, I'd put the remainder of the Records line and the Non-human line from the Template. I'd also put biographies of any world's oldest person recordholders here. Ca2james (talk) 23:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

we are the World's oldest ***People***. Dogs aren't people.

Interesting. Psychology Today seems to support your claim: [1] Gap9551 (talk) 20:38, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Incorporated Ca2james' suggestions. Deaths by year moved to low. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Mid importance

I think we can put the continent and individual countries articles here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Subject fills in more minor details

Agree. Also the War-related lists and Centenarian lines from the template. I'd also put regional/country oldest person recordholder bios here, if there are any. Ca2james (talk) 23:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Incorporated. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Low importance

I think we can put the historical country and macroregion ones here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Subject is mainly of specialist interest.

Agree, but I also think the Births in year and Deaths in year articles, as well as List of last survivors of historical events can go here. I think these articles tend to be more trivia than encyclopaedic, since the names are included in other articles. Any remaining bios would go here. Ca2james (talk) 23:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Incorporated. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Assessments discussion

Let's try to have a single organized discussion place. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Does anyone at all care to discuss this? Is there any actual interest in improving these articles or just in having lists when possible? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Should longevity biographies have succession boxes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should longevity biographies about individuals such as the "Oldest person in the world", "Oldest man/woman" or even the "Oldest person in nation" or within nation categorization ("Oldest person born in Scotland" or "Oldest person born in the British raj" period of India) have succession boxes? Let's try for a single yes/no voting section with a single discussion section. Any discussion about the levels of succession boxes can be done afterwards.

FRS

Hello Zppix from feedback request service here. As long as it doesnt get to long of a BOX i don't see why not. Also I recommend next time to possibly explain more in detail on what all it could be used for not just "World's Oldest People". Thanks Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (talk) 19:04, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

@Zppix: Boxes would like those at Maria de Jesus for the oldest living person/European/Portuguese person. As I stated above, the first level discussion is whether any are appropriate given the concerns below. The second issue is what level of detail these boxes should include. There is obviously the oldest person and then oldest man/woman, and then by continent and then nation. It can go further as the US has breakdowns by state and Japan has prefectures, etc. I note that both the oldest men and oldest people template which would connect these pages were both deleted here and here for what I consider the same issues as here (namely there exists conflicts in sources as to the voracity of these claims making this distinct from say Academy Award winners or royalty or presidents or whatever). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes to succession boxes

• Yes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longevityresearcher (talk • contribs)
• Yes Ollie231213 (talk) 12:47, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
• Yes Succession box is very useful to connect the article to each other. also succession boxes is used to many other articles. as an example, Sultan Kösen (world's tallest person record holder), Pauline Musters (shortest woman record holder), Usain Bolt, Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce (sprinter), World Trade Center (buildings who was tallest building ever from 1972 to 1974), Petronas Towers (world's tallest twin towers), Warren Buffett and Bill Gates (world's richest person) is this template is used. why there is a reason that should not be used only oldest people article? If remove succession box from oldest people article, then should remove many other articles. for the above reasons, I think should not remove the succession boxes from the oldest people article.--Inception2010 (talk) 10:02, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• Yes Public interest in the world's oldest person has existed for a long time, as evidenced by all media reports on the world's oldest, ESPECIALLY when there was a succession. These world's oldest people are a living link to a time over one hundred years back and succession boxes therefore offer a time frame context: what was the world like when this person was born? On top of that, the succession box reflects the fact that worldwide, renowned organisations - such as the GWR actually hand out plaques for the world's oldest, implying that it is a title that can be gained by a successor. Fiskje88 (talk) 19:46, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
  • EEng, the act of put template:spa to the users who are opposed to their own opinion is harassment act. please stop.--182.170.205.177 (talk) 14:55, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Identifying SPAs (such as yourself) in discussions where formal comment is requested (such as RfCs and AfDs) is standard practice, and is especially important in the present topic area, in which historically discussions have been overrun by hordes of externally recruited meatpuppets. (An example might be an IP who shows up out of nowhere to argue specifically and only on the specific point of succession boxes.) In this particular discussion, the tagging makes clear that those desiring succession boxes all edit on this topic only, whereas those opposing them are experienced editors from all over the project. EEng (talk) 15:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• YES Agree with Ollie, Inception and Fiskje. this template is needed. Succession box is used for more than 11 years in the oldest people article of Wikipedia.([2]) I don't understand why to abolish it.--182.170.205.177 (talk) 14:55, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
• Yes Of course succession boxes are needed here. Partly for people to be able to track the successors of the titles as the World's Oldest Verified Living Person and partly to show the age differences between the previous titleholder and the following titleholder. Some people have gained the title at the age of 112 (Jeanne Calment) and others at age 117 (Sarah Knauss), what is clear however is that the threshold for being the absolutely oldest is increasing. In the past you could gain the title at age 111/112 but nowadays you have to be at least 114+. Just because someone might be retroactively verified as having been the oldest at a certain time does not mean that succession boxes display inaccurate information. As with all fields within science, you constantly learn new things. So the succession boxes are for the people who are currently considered to have been the oldest at the time and not for the ones who certainly were the oldest. But there is a high likelihood that they were the oldest at the time or, at the very least, the oldest who could prove their age. And this is not a competition between people for the title as the oldest. 930310 (talk) 15:32, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
• Yes. No problem.--153.151.83.197 (talk) 07:15, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
• Yes. - this navbox serves to aid navigation between related articles, as navboxes on wikipedia are supposed to do; there is no clear reason to remove this particular navbox. Many "no" votes have been given without reason and seem like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Chessrat ^{(talk,contributions)} 04:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

* Yes 166.170.50.122 (talk) 09:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

• Yes and we should expand to include not just the top but the second, third and so on people. Articles should reflect people who were the fifth, fourth, third, second and then top titleholders as the others died off. There's so many details that we can include. 166.170.48.18 (talk) 09:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
• yes because these titles are critical to keeping these biographies in perspective. Why is George Washington's succession boxes more implement than these? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.123.233 (talk) 09:43, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Nice of you three to join us. Couldn't even wait a few minutes, could we? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, but one of the puppets raises an interesting question... why is George Washington's succession box more implement? EEng (talk) 15:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

No succession boxes

• No DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 03:13, 30 October 2015 (UTC).
• No - Ricky81682 (talk) 21:35, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• No. Succession boxes make even less sense than navboxes that list names. (Cf. recent consensus to delete a navbox.) Succession boxes only make sense when there is a clear line of succession to a position of such prominent influence that there should virtually always be an article about each individual in that role even if they are not otherwise notable. As discussed by others below, there is no definitive and enduring line of succession, and navigating sequentially does not work when many or most of the successors do not or should not have individual articles. (With reference to WP:ANYBIO: being a statistical outlier is not a "significant award or honor", and a record of being alive for a long time does not constitute a "contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field".) ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:39, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
• No Longevity is not a contest. The world's oldest people are not contestants in a competition to achieve some sort of title, let alone to become an "incumbent" or to "lose" the title to a successor by shuffling off this mortal coil. David in DC (talk) 15:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• No The classic examples of succession are in politics or monarchy‍—‌the thread of succession takes one through political and social changes over time. Longevity "successions" reflect nothing more than stochastic variation in who keeps breathing longer. There's no relationship whatsoever between "successors". It's pointless and ridiculous. EEng (talk) 18:00, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Again, WP:SBSGUIDE clearly allows for Guinness Record holders to have succession boxes there is a thread of succession, which there is. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Not IDONTLIKEIT, but rather ITMAKESUSLOOKLIKEFOOLSWHOSTUFFNONSENSE,WITHNOCOHERENTMEANING,INTOARTICLES. What SBSGUIDE says, more fully, is

This header ['Awards and achievements'] is used for awards, records, and miscellaneous achievements that merit a succession chain Simply because a record has been earned does not merit a succession box for that record. Succession boxes for records should only regard records that are part of a series (for example, not all Guinness Book records deserve a succession box).

I added the underlining -- note the words merit and chain. It's a matter of editorial judgment, and four out of five editors agree that there's no merit here, because there's no chain -- someone in Indiana dies; then, randomly six months later, someone in Japan dies. There's no relationship. No one's working to beat the other guy's pole-vault, build a taller building, or take a longer space-walk. It's just people randomly dying.

One particularly significant point is that, generally, chains of "records" form an increasing series -- the tallest building in the world is displaced by an even taller building, and so on. In this stupid oldest-living-person "chain", a 116-year-old dies and is replaced by a 112-year-old who dies at age 114 -- not even as old as the previous record-holder. God, the more I think about it, the stupider and trivial-er it sounds.

EEng (talk) 02:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

One person dies, and then someone else becomes the world's oldest. That's quite obviously a chain and "oldest living person" is a record that's recognised by Guinness World Records. Your personal opinion that it's "stupid" is utterly irrelevant (again, WP:IDONTLIKEIT) and just demonstrates further that you are more interested in pushing your own personal point of view on to Wikipedia instead of following policy and looking at what the consensus in outside sources is. It's a record, recognised by reputable, widely-known organisation, which is held by one person at a time and hence there is a continuing series of record-holders, and the amount of coverage the world's oldest people typically get is an indication that such a record is more than trivial. Oh, and how about we get some input from more users from NEUTRAL editors who aren't involved in this project and don't have their own points of view to push. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 16:57, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

My reasoning, and that of others -- based on policy, guidelines, and commons sense -- is clearly on laid out, and is no more a "personal point of view" than is anyone else's reasoned contribution. My use of the word stupid emphasizes the years of exasperation with editors who chant snippets of guidelines, unembarrassed by the fact that those guidelines' premises don't at all fit the facts at hand.

And BTW, if what we want to recognize is a "record", then there should be one, and only one, longevity article: that on Jean Calment, since she holds the record. Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea. When someone lives to 123, then we can add a second article. EEng (talk) 18:02, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

'There's no relationship whatsoever between "successors".' Except there is: scientists are studying why these people follow up on each other as the WOP - what is it that makes these people live longer than anyone else, and what could society gain from that?

'Longevity "successions" reflect nothing more than stochastic variation in who keeps breathing longer. There's no relationship whatsoever between "successors". It's pointless and ridiculous.' This is clearly blatant POV-spreading that is completely wrong; had you actually studied supercentenarians more closely, you'd have noticed they do more than "breathe". Jeralean Talley, for instance, was reported fishing at the age of 114 [3] and able to walk unassistedly at the age of 116 [4]. Your comment clearly shows you cannot objectively look at the topic. Fiskje88 (talk) 19:56, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

• Scientists are not using Wikipedia to get data for their studies, and anyway nothing in their studies relates to the fact that Jim was the oldest for 5 days, followed by Bob for 2 months, followed by Alice...
• That these people do more than breathe longer than others may be true, but has nothing to do with it. You want to list them only because of their prolonged breathing, whether or not they did anything else during that time.

And please cut out the huffing and puffing about "POV-spreading" and whathaveyou -- if you had more than 170 edits, or ever edited anything other than longevity-related nonsense, you'd know how ridiculous it sounds. EEng (talk) 00:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• No - Longevity is not a competition. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 02:30, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. Succession boxes aren't for competitions. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 16:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• No per EEng. There is nothing connecting these people except that they are both very old and the slightly older one died first. AIRcorn (talk) 08:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
• No. Someone doesn't understand succession. --Calton | Talk 16:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
• NoThere's nothing notable about being old. There's nothing notable about simply being a Guinness world record holder. This doesn't even seem to be a secession box for Guinness world record holder. There's no definitive line of succession. Not really seeing a point to the box other than WOP fandom.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:08, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

That's entirely your opinion. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 20:01, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

• No. They hold no office and no formal title. ~ Rob^Talk 17:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Not a requirement of WP:SBSGUIDE. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 20:01, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

None of these is ever "awarded" except the world's oldest living person/man/woman but such awards are neither definitive nor permanent and therefore bear no relation to the intent of succession boxes as defined by WP:SBSGUIDE. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 03:13, 30 October 2015 (UTC).

First, it's also confusing as these boxes don't always match the articles as the articles just reflect a single source, the GRG which is incomplete. Further, it's a bit confusing as we're going by a number of sources (presumably reliable ones) to designate the "titleholder". Certain claims have been classified as Longevity claims or Longevity myths without a reliable source that debunks them which I find problematic and WP:OR. Otherwise, we only have to go by perhaps the Guinness World Records which is an annual print publication and thus individuals like a Emma Tillman who was allegedly the world's oldest for five days wouldn't be there. In contrast, we could be including the GRG as the sole source but that's completely ridiculous for other reasons. As I've said, this is like having "World's most beautiful woman" and making a single "list" of the "titleholders" based on the timeline of the Miss World, Miss Universe, Maxim Top 100, and other charts as each source makes its own choice based on its own criteria for reliability is just more likely to be chaotic. And that's just for the world's person or singular oldest male or female. Once you start getting into country or further breakdown, it's difficult to ascertain what is a "recorded" or "verified" or whatever made up categorization is being used now versus claims that aren't included in these things. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:35, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Without a source that has proven a person's age, it's not WP:OR to list someone as a "longevity claim", and it's certainly not OR to list Methuselah as "longevity myth". On the other hand, we have Guinness World Records and the Gerontology Research who are both widely-recognised organisations, and they work together (see [5] "Besse was first certified as the world's oldest person by Guinness World Records, in conjunction with The Gerontology Research Group, in January 2011"). I can't see a situation where the two of them would disagree. If there is, we can worry about that at the time. Furthermore, GWR is now online and not just a print publication, so that's not much of an issue. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

What is a source that has "proven" their age? We have sources about their ages. How does Guinness or the GRG or whatever source you're imaging "prove" an age and what evidence do you have that they actually do "prove" ages? This is just circular arguing that only some sources are qualified to "prove" or "certify" ages and other sources are just "reporting" ages or whatever terms you want to use. This is where it gets into complete OR nonsense trying to distinguish which are real and which are not as we're playing round and round with "reliable sources" and "really reliable sources". -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:33, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

No, the original research is already being done by the outside sources. Maybe if you could actually be bothered to do a tiny amount of research in to the subject before starting a campaign on Wikipedia to delete as much content as possible, you might realise this. "oldest AUTHENTICATED age", "VERFIED Supercentenarians", and so on. It's a very simple concept to understand: just saying "I'm 120!" doesn't prove that you're 120, so Guinness World Records insist that proof of age (birth certificates, marriage records, etc) must be shown in order to be officially recognised as the world's oldest person/woman/man/whatever. For example: "Bolivian man claims to be 123", reported by what are generally considered to be reliablesources. But then in the same sources it says "To claim the title, Mr Laura’s documents must be verified by a Guinness World Records official". So, clearly reliable outside sources: 1. Recognise Guinness as an authority 2. Understand the difference between an unverified claim and a verified claim. It's absolutely nothing to do with "reliable sources" and "really reliable sources", it's about recognising that the concept of age verification exists and there is a difference between was is verifiable and what is not. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 20:32, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

It's not a title, and a free tabloid saying it does not make it so. Guinness and Gerontology Research Group do not bestow titles. ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:SBSGUIDE says "Simply because a record has been earned does not merit a succession box for that record. Succession boxes for records should only regard records that are part of a series (for example, not all Guinness Book records deserve a succession box)." --> That would suggest that Guinness World Records titleholders can have succession boxes as long as they are part of a series, which the "world's oldest titleholders" are. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, so if there are any changes, it's quite simple to edit Wikipedia to reflect the most up to date information. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Are we discussing the Guinness titleholder alone or whatever is claimed to be the "titleholder" on Wikipedia? If it's only Guinness, then every source that isn't a direct citation to an edition of Guinness should be removed (and no, the "GRG is really the same as Guinness" nonsense doesn't fly then). But it's not. It's a game of cobbling together sources from (largely) the GRG and other sources to make it look like there's title holders. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:33, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't even know what your point is. And again, why don't you try educating yourself on the subject at hand. [6] [7] [8] [9] "The research group, accepted as a global authority on the super-elderly by Guinness World Records"... "Gerontology Research Group, the company which verifies age information for Guinness World Records"... "Besse, from Monroe, Georgia, USA, was first certified as the world's oldest person by Guinness World Records, in conjunction with The Gerontology Research Group, in January 2011." -----> Oh look, the GRG and GWR work together. So they are "really the same as Guinness" when it comes to things like the world's oldest person. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 20:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Except you can want to use Guinness "titleholder" when it's convenient but when it comes to actual sources, it falls to the GRG. There are literally zero citation to Guinness itself on the oldest people page. And there is a difference between "verifies Guinness" and "reports the exact same thing as Guinness." It's this constantly shifting series of arguments that tire everyone. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes for World's oldest person/man/woman titleholders as they are part of a series which merit a succession box, as per WP:SBSGUIDE. No for national recordholders as many don't have their own articles and the sourcing isn't as clear. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that it would be useful to be able to find who was the oldest living person (oldest living male, female, etc.) at any given time, but how many of these people would be independently notable and have their own articles? If few, then a list of oldest living people by date might be a better way of presenting the information than a navbox that mostly navigates to nowhere. If most of the people in the succession box actually have articles, then succession boxes would make sense.--Wikimedes (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Consensus?

Do we have a consensus yet? So far we have:

Yes: 8 votes, 7 by SPAs No: 10 votes, no SPAs identified, several users with no apparent interest in longevity articles.

If this were a simple vote (it is not) it would place consensus against succession boxes in longevity relate articles. The fact that almost all Yes votes are from longevity SPAs and that a number of No votes are from disinterested parties would also seem to lean towards a No consensus. Is this sufficient or do we need to drag this to DRN? DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 07:37, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Let someone else close this or else I'm sure someone can find a few new SPAs to have an opinion here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:59, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I've listed it at AN etc etc. Will probably take a while. EEng (talk) 10:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Let me just add here that I think it's inefficient to systematically remove these boxes just now -- as with so many other things, that effort will be much easier after the walled garden is pruned back via AfD and so on. EEng (talk) 09:45, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I've already reverted all the ones I found previously which were reverted by another user. I'm quite prepared to remove any I find on sight but won't bother hunting them out for a while yet. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 10:30, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

That sounds like the right approach. EEng (talk) 15:49, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Zelda McCague

This article has only one source, and that source says that, lacking a birth certificate, her lifespan was uncertain, Guinness never recognized her lifespan. Why is she notable as that term is defined on Wikipedia? David in DC (talk) 22:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

She's likely not but don't worry, any AFD discussion will be flooded with keep votes on various bases I'm certain. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

None of which will have a basis in Wiki policy/guidelines. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 09:52, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

And the anticipation of none of which should prevent an effort to continue pruning. I was mostly looking for a reality check. I'm not real good at setting up AfD's, but when I get some time, I may try. In the meantime, I'd really like to hear from WOP project members who think this article DOES cover a notable subject about why. If you can, please stick to the Wikipedia definition of notability, and not the more common everyday usage.

Who knows, maybe we can figure out a better paradigm for resolving these issues than the one that's frustrating so many of us right now.

Anybody? Bueller, Bueller? David in DC (talk) 16:38, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

For AfDs what we need are closers who understand how to close based on policy, though I'm not sure how to get such people into position. Zelda has no coverage I can see other than her death, and (I repeat at the risk of boring everyone) NOPAGE applies here as usual. She was born, got married, and died, and near the end remembered some things. EEng (talk) 18:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

REVDEL is the place to go if one thinks a close was incorrect. David in DC (talk) 19:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

This reflects another successful approach to the problem you identify David in DC (talk) 20:01, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

This approach was also successful. It led to this. David in DC (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

We should be prepared to use all such tools, but my point was aimed at getting correct closes in the first place. Certainly there should be no NACs. EEng (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a worthy nom to me. I understand the general concerns about closes but, in terms of keep votes and proper closes for nominating individual articles, I think we're still at a point where we can deal with problems as they arise. Canadian Paul 04:22, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Nominate away. If we don't challenge these, they will remain. The discussions that did result in deletions and redirect do provide actual discussions and evidence. There hasn't been a keep that isn't either "oldest = notable" or "lots of sources = GRG passed." These will come in rounds, I give it six months until another set of articles have been built up and are listed for deletion and then the various forums and the like will take notice and the cycle will continue. It took years to get all the individual Pokemon character articles merged together and I see no difference here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:26, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain that you won't have to wait six months. Canadian Paul 04:36, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

@David in DC I'm not going to argue that this particular person is notable. I don't mindlessly vote "keep" on every single supercentenarian biography. But I am of the opinion that world's oldest people/men ARE, for pretty obvious reasons, let's be honest. Being the oldest person out of several billion is something unique and the typical press coverage reflects this. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 17:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Nor do I mindlessly vote "delete" in all cases. Happily, we've resolved that question already.
"Something unique" is one-of-a-kind. That's what unique means.
Typical press coverage does not reflect anything of the sort. Typical press coverage is yearly WP:ROUTINE birthday acknowledgements and an obituary. Taken together, these rarely establish notability as that term is defined on Wikipedia. Three happy birthdays and an obit are not significant coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. David in DC (talk) 18:06, 13 November 2015 (UTC).

The presumption being that these actually are the world's oldest people. My annoyance is that some people who are allegedly 110 years old or whatever are supposedly worthy of articles because some organizations have given them the "title" while other people get shuffled to Longevity claims or to this subpage or ignored entirely based entirely on whether or not some group of people think their claims are valid. To me, that's hubris. Ashmall will likely be restored, I can live with it as a WP:GNG based on the number of sources but I still find the first "verified" or "known" statement to be full of privilege as to the quality of sources that fall to the longevity "claims" listings. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:14, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes. To repeat what I said elsewhere today, neither GRG nor Guinness nor anyone else is the "official" arbiter of these "records". Furthermore, GRG and Guinness can make and have made mistakes. There are other sources, and for these reasons they have a say as well. EEng (talk) 00:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Sources for exclusion of claim

What sources do we have for excluding a particular claim from our longevity tables? Javier Pereira has numerous reliable sources about his claim but has been put in Category:Longevity traditions rather than treated as a valid claim. The only prior discussion was at Talk:Longevity_myths/Archive_1#Javier_Pereira which just evidences the concerns that got this mess to ARBCOM before. There is this GRG page on frauds but other than the title, there are no actual facts or discussion stating anything about it and I don't think this page (with nothing for Pereira) could be reliable source. I guess we could state that the GRG considers this an "incomplete or fraudulent case" but those are two different issues: incomplete means that we can fall to the other sources which seem reliable while fraudulent means that the other sources were mistaken. I think we need a reliable source that states that the claim isn't true, rather than going by WP:SYNTHESIS and presuming from the lack of inclusion that they don't support the claim, especially since we don't have an idea about why they reject the fact here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims require exceptional sources. It's well know that the oldest accepted claim of longevity is 122 years, so yes, to present as fact anything significantly beyond that, sources would have to be especially solid. We don't need GRG to falsify or question it to keep it out of the factual tables, just the lack of solid, "exceptional" sources supporting it. EEng (talk) 02:25, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm not talking about biblical myths. That page at least has a source providing some explanation. I wonder if we should switch our tone entirely and change the tone of all to "claimants". I use the term pretender for the questionable ones. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think we should use pretender because it has a distinctly unpleasant implication, especially for living (or recently living) persons.

I'm not just talking about biblical-type claims. Anything over 110 years can be considered an exceptional claim, I think. EEng (talk) 17:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

There's also a time element. A lot of longevity claims are decades if not centuries old. A 100 year claim from the 17th century is the same issue as a modern one (especially if the GRG is making statements about people like Ferdinand Ashmall). If they want to move into that realm of issues, we need better organization to me. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Javier Pereira can be excluded from and list on the basis that the year of death is disputed. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

But under all three dates, he'd still be the oldest person in the world by decades. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I'm asking this wrong, but should we include as a "source" the fact that a GRG isn't including an individual to assert that the claim hasn't been verified? The problem is, other than the random "fraud or incomplete" page, there's no page of "there are claims that the GRG has explicitly rejected" based on X, Y or Z. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:15, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/123-year-old-bolivian-man-oldest-living-person-ever-documented-f6C10934840 What about this guy? Older then the oldest. Legacypac (talk) 18:47, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

So should he be at the top? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:53, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

permastubs

A good adjunct to WP:NOPAGE is the WP:PERMASTUB essay, which is worth quoting at length:

A permastub is an article that is currently a stub and has no reasonable prospect for expansion. There can be many reasons for this. These include:

• There is little verifiable information to be found on the subject
• All or most aspects of the subject are already covered in other articles
• There is little important to say about the subject
• The article is about a subject that was briefly notable, but no longer receives any coverage
• The subject is about or is notable for a single event, after which there will never likely be any future coverage

Permastubs are unsatisfying articles – they leave little potential for future editing, and by their nature are not very informative. Where possible, they should be merged to larger articles and redirected there.

So many longevity articles fit that description to a T, and the bolded advice applies well. EEng (talk) 09:14, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

"Low-profile individuals"

At WP:Articles_for_deletion/Alexina_Calvert, a participant introduced the concept of an "LPI" (Low-Profile Individual). I think this is a concept with wide narrow applicability to individuals whose only claim to notability is their longevity. EEng (talk) 17:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

That related only to biographies for living people. Those people's profiles are relevant to whether or not their names should be provided. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:54, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, so it has narrow applicability... EEng (talk) 12:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Persistent restoration of content not source to an RS

We're having a problem at Yukichi_Chuganji with two editors repeatedly restoring content sourced only to GRG's "Table C", which itself carries no references or citations (the same reason that Table EE was rejected as an RS here [10]). One of the two editors received a DS notification some time ago, and I've just notified the other here [11]. Assistance will be appreciated. EEng (talk) 18:41, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Not every bit of information in every source has to have citations. The original research has to be done somewhere. This is a list of VERIFIED people, just like table E, and to quote that discussion, "Table E is reliable for claims about age because it has a fact checking process". Same applies to table C. No reason to consider it unreliable. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 23:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)