Talk:Elazar Shach

Yeshiva University - unexplained deletion?

Winchester2313 (talk · contribs) presumably accuses me of an "unexplained deletion", yet the diffs reveal that he himself removed the expanded text on Yeshiva University. The original text had:

Joseph B. Soloveitchik

In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",[45] as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".[46]

The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University

Shach wrote that Yeshiva University (YU) type institutions are an entirely negative phenomenon posing a threat to the very endurance of authentic Judaism. Shach said that these modern conceptions were "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."^[60] Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "ma'aseh satan" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.^[61]

My amended version merged these two paragraphs under a section titled "Modern Orthodoxy" as follows:

Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox Yeshiva University type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."^[67] He felt that the success of people who achieved greatness in Torah despite involvement in secular studies was the work of the "satanic forces."^[68] Shach accused Joseph B. Soloveitchik of Yeshiva University of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",^[69] as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".^[70]

On 6 September 2021, Winchester2313 removed the Yeshiva University text himself adding in its place:

In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",^[63] as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".^[64]

only to re-add the missing YU text soon after claiming it was an "unexplained deletion", when in fact he removed it himself under the guise of "restoring longstanding and properly sourced version". (NB. here "properly sourced" = WP:PRIMARY) What is Winchester2313 playing at? Chesdovi (talk) 23:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I simply restored the longstanding text by copying the earlier (pre-revisionist) version. Shach's WP:NOTABILITY was largely on account of his frequent infamous attacks on other leading rabbis and groups, as evidenced by the majority of his mentions in sources meeting WP:RS. Winchester2313 (talk) 04:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

You also simply removed it without releasing what you had removed, something you seem very prone to and I view as a form of VANDALISM. But never mind.... Now, please provide WP:RS for your claim that Shach's notability stems from his attacks. Notwithstanding, we do not list them here like this in such an unseemly fashion. Chesdovi (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Lead - Preparation area

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Hebrew: אלעזר מנחם מן שך) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading Israeli rabbi of the non-Hasidic Lithuanian stream of Haredi Judaism who served as Rosh yeshiva of Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak.

Born in Lithuania, he escaped the impending Holocaust after immigrating to Mandate Palestine where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three co-deans of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored Avi Ezri, a comprehensive four-volume work on Maimonides' Mishneh Torah and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews.

Considered one of Israel's most influential rabbis and the undisputed leader of Lithuanian Jews in Israel from the mid-1970s until his death he co-headed the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, was chairman of Chinuch Atzmai and was patron to hundreds of institutions and organisations around the world, including many yeshivas he established for Sephardim. Seen as the successor of the Chazon Ish, he was held in high esteem among large portions of the non-Hasidic Ashkenazi community over whom he was able to dominate and impose his will, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership.

His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish Khomeini". He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against Chabad messianism and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society. In favour of giving up land for peace, he was seen as a political dove and fiercely opposed the establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Although ideologically opposed to Zionism, he was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (Shas in 1984 representing Sepharadim, and Degel Hatorah in 1988 representing Lithuanian Ashkenazim) which won disproportionate state funds for yeshivas and other orthodox institutions. In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that Labour was "anti-Jewish".

Comments

This proposed rewrite does nothing to improve on the existing version - on the contrary, it actually replaces key contextual information and details from high quality sources with an overly lengthy and poorly sourced ramble by one editor. There is no reason to replace the existing, longstanding consensus version with this proposed sanitized version which runs afoul of WP:BALANCED, WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:NOT. Winchester2313 (talk) 04:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Please explain why it "runs afoul of WP:BALANCED, WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:NOT." Don't just keep plastering these WP:GULDILINES every time. You are not grappling with the issues at hand. You write here that the current LEAD contains "high quality sources." It contains one: 'Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001. Your comments here are nonsensical. You are wasting my time. Chesdovi (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems quite clear that a certain editor is actually an activist committed to forcing their revisions onto this page with a view to creating a distorted narrative about it's highly controversial subject, rather than actually achieving WP:CONSENSUS. This is obviously disruptive editing and does not improve the page in any way.

The lead as well as the page in general is actually WP:BALANCED in it's present (and longstanding form), as opposed to the proposed 'sanitized' version. If Chesdovi insists on turning this page into a battleground, it's clear that an ANI will have to be the next stop, and I feel that perhaps a page block would be the appropriate remedy. Winchester2313 (talk) 06:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

It is impossible to reach "consensus" when you refuse to be specific about what precisely is unbalanced, distorted and disruptive. I totally reject your accusations. 1. The article in its current form is not balanced. 2. that the page has been longstanding in its current form is simply not an argument. 3. what is being "distorted" and how? 4. describing the subject as "highly controversial" as a reason for stifling further editing is really not helpful. 6. That my additions with numerous sourced citations is described by you as "not improving the page in any way" is just disgusting. Chesdovi (talk) 11:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

A simple look at the google search results or even google news results will show that the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability. Compare the following well known Orthodox Jewish 20th century rabbis: Adin Steinsaltz - google results = 244,000 Moshe Feinstein - google results = 330,000 Menachem Schneerson google results = 336,000 Ovadia Yosef google results = 219,000 Jonathan Sacks google results = 121,000 Elazar Shach google results = 39,000

A look at the pitiful google news results for Elazar Shach make this even clearer with 189 results compared to 2360 for Moshe Feinstein, 5620 for Ovadia Yosef or 7180 for Menachem Schneerson. It is patently absurd for this article to be aggressively stuffed with references to every person he supposedly met while in one yeshiva or another. This reeks of a very transparent attempt to artificially exaggerate his notability by supposed association with more notable figures. The article as it reads now needs trimming, not more stuffing. Also, the issues with citing from the Yated and their writers moonlighting at similarly transparent partisan publications where we're treated to stories about the wunderkind who "reportedly.....[insert fantastic unverifiable story of ones choice]..." have been raised previously and surely don't need to be relitigated?Londoner77 (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

He either met them or he did not. (At present, the article does not actually state whom he met in yeshiva, you having previously removed it...). The Yated is currently referenced only once? I do not understand how this article "grossly exaggerates his notability". While your ghit chart proves beyond all doubt that M Schneerson was the greatest and most famous rabbi that ever lived, we rely on RS which in fact state Shach was one of, if not the most, influential rabbi in Israel, where he boasted a following far greater than Schneerson. Chesdovi (talk) 23:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Who he met or not probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor does any of this have to do with any other rabbis. What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that without grossly exaggerating Shach's real-world notability.Londoner77 (talk) 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

What description of Shach would "grossly exaggerate" his notability? Chesdovi (talk) 21:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I will add that you actually contradict yourself. Above you state "the article on Wiipedia [sic] for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability" while your previous post says "What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that." I will also counter that you are the one who brought up other rabbis in relation to Shach. Please try presenting a consistent argument here otherwise we end up going round in circles. Chesdovi (talk) 21:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

And while you insist on removing uncontentious material about his early years and significant information relating to the personalities who influenced him claiming it is "non-notable", I would beg to disagree. There is no solid reason grounded in the guidelines which preclude us from mentioning his mentors. Chesdovi (talk) 21:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Predecessors

The text states: "The Shach family had been merchants for generations". This book says "His father, Rav Ezriel, was a scion of a long chain of rabbis and rabbinical judges." ...? Chesdovi (talk) 13:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)