Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. 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Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
15.ai	In Progress	Ltbdl (t)	14 days, 5 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	21 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	21 hours
Tuner (radio)	In Progress	Andrevan (t)	10 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	17 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	17 hours
Wolf	In Progress	Nagging Prawn (t)	5 days, 11 hours	NotAGenious (t)	2 days, 6 hours	Moxy (t)	1 days, 8 hours
Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic	New	Randomstaplers (t)	1 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	19 hours	Randomstaplers (t)	14 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 19:46, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

15.ai

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Ltbdl on 15:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 15.ai (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ltbdl (talk · contribs)
• Thought 1915 (talk · contribs)
• RocketKnightX (talk · contribs)
• SuperStain (talk · contribs)
• VexVector (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

the dispute is whether 15.ai is abandoned or not.

15.ai is an ai text-to-speech program that has been down for ~19 months. the article said that 15.ai was under maintenance until thought 1915 edited the article to say 15.ai was abandoned, and rocketknightx edited the article back to the status quo. i and rocketknightx edit warred over this, and i apologize for that.

those who support saying that 15.ai is abandoned include myself, thought 1915, and superstain. those who support saying that 15.ai is under maintenance include rocketknightx and vexvector.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:15.ai § Editing with respect to the last two topics of Past Tense

Talk:15.ai § The project is not abandoned.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

by determining whether the article on 15.ai should say it is operational or abandoned.

Summary of dispute by Thought 1915

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I am so sorry if this comes off as biased or too casual; this is my first time having disputes happen. After seeing multiple talk pages in the article that suggested changing the article to past tense, I applied the change. This, seemingly, started an edit war against one who wanted to revert my change and those who were fine with my change. Talk topics have been attempted to solve this issue, one started by me after realizing that an edit war may occur without intervention. At this point, the reasoning for keeping the site in the present tense and not calling the site abandoned is that there are not enough citations and a sentiment that the site could come back up. This sentiment is only felt by one editor, as everybody else involved that I see listed in this dispute holds the opposite opinion. The opposite opinion that has been quite common among the editors involved is that the site indeed has been abandoned. This is because of a lack of contact for over 18 months, the domain being used to host completely unrelated projects (see tf2[dot]15[dot]ai), and the fact that multiple other sites allegedly made by 15 (see pony[dot]best) have been found. After third-party intervention, a decision to stop editing until a consensus was reached occurred. Some of the editors claim that RocketKnightX may have a bias that prevents neutrality in the article. Checking RocketKnightX's user contributions can help a third party conclude this general sentiment. There is one point I would like to highlight in this dispute: there has been no contact or mention of 15[dot]ai for more than a year; the site no longer appears on a search engine. If we were to classify the site as abandoned or under maintenance, how would it be cited? Would the amount of time without any contact and the usage of the domain for different projects be enough to consider the site abandoned? Once again, I apologize for any bias in my statement.

Summary of dispute by RocketKnightX

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Okay. So, 15 said "I've been alerted that there appears to be a coordinated attack against my project by another service, with affiliated groups spreading rumors that I had abandoned 15.ai, or that I had placed it behind a paywall, or that I had killed myself, etc. I assure you that I am still the same stubborn person I was three years ago when I first launched my project – please don't believe these malicious lies. I'm doing the best I can, and I'll always continue to do so." They tried to mean that the project was not abandoned and is in under maintenance, but some people still not convinced due to waiting too long. The only reason why the project isn't up is that it needs to be perfect, as quality is more important than quantity.

Summary of dispute by SuperStain

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

My involvement in this dispute began some months ago when I noticed that an editor had been reverting edits made to the 15.ai page that could be interpreted as painting the website in a negative light. After noticing these edits, I took it upon myself to clean up the page, removing irrelevant and potentially biased passages, fixing certain spelling errors and adding archived references. A few months later, I returned to the article's talk page to provide insight into a discussion being held on the status of 15.ai, some of which now serves as the foundation for arguments in favour of classifying the website as abandoned. A few weeks later, I checked on the article again and found that an edit war had arisen between two editors, one believing the site to be abandoned and the other holding out hope for the site's return. Feeling that 15.ai had been down for long enough to justify classifying the website as abandoned, I edited parts of the page in order to counteract revisions made to label the site as "under maintenance". Conscious of potential 3RR violations, I made sure to limit myself to two of these edits before moving on with my day. Echoing Thought 1915's feelings, I believe RocketKnightX to be biased in favour of 15.ai. However, I also feel that another editor, HackerKnownAs, who I alluded to previously in my statement, to hold similar biases, as their account was created the same day as many of the articles sourced, and their contribution history seems to be comprised exclusively of edits made to protect the website's image and to remove mentions of competing websites/15.ai's ongoing downtime. I feel the best course of action here would be to classify 15.ai as abandoned, and to investigate the article's overall edit history to determine how much of this page was written with bias.

Summary of Dispute by VexVector

To be clear, I do not, “support saying that 15.ai is under maintenance”. This is a misrepresentation of my involvement. I merely added a citation-needed tag to the claim that the site was abandoned, and reverted an edit which removed the tag without resolving the need for it. If the site is claimed to be abandoned, then it should be a claim which is cited or explained somehow. The page did not have any rationale for considering it abandoned. What is the cut-off point? Is there præexisting policy on this matter? An explanation is all I ask for, along with the explanation being included on the public page.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (15.ai)

I am ready to act as the moderator for this content dispute. Please read DRN Rule A and state whether you are willing to follow the ground rules. Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise.

It appears that the main question is whether to characterize the web site as abandoned or defunct, or whether to characterize it as under maintenance. Is that correct? In Wikipedia, we report what reliable sources have said, including about the (lack of) availability of the site. So my first question to the editors is whether they can refer to any reliable sources that comment on the status of the web site. If so, please identify the source(s).

The purpose of dispute resolution, including moderated discussion, is to improve the article. So my second question is whether there are any other portions or sections of the article that you want to change that another editor wants to leave unchanged, or any portions of the article that you want to leave unchanged that another editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

You are correct in what the main question is about the categorization of the website as either abandoned/defunct or under maintenance.

Directly answering your first question, we were unable to find specifically reliable sources regarding the status of 15[dot]ai. We do have alledged sites made by 15, tweets that 15 had said about the status (and an implied release timeframe that has already passed), and the current usage of the domain 15[dot]ai under tf2[dot]15[dot]ai, but I assume that these do not qualify as reliable sources.

As for your second question, a new talk topic on the page asked whether the CMU Dictionary section of the page was necessary, although the topic is too new for any consensus to be formed yet.

If any editors have information that contradicts my statement, please correct me. I may make mistakes by accident. Thought 1915 (talk) 05:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I forgot to answer you on the first point, sorry. I will, to my best knowledge, try to follow the stated ground rules. Please let me know if I made a mistake though. Thought 1915 (talk) 05:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

i can follow the ground rules. i have nothing to add to thought 1915's summary. ltbdl☃ (talk) 10:44, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I personally very much think that 15.ai has definitely been abandoned and the article needs to be updated. It's not gotten any changes within the last few months and I haven't seen any updates about it. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (15.ai)

If reliable sources do not say that the web site has been abandoned, we should not say that the web site has been abandoned, but we can state what the reliable sources report about the status of the web site. Stating that it has been abandoned would be original research. However, stating that it is under maintenance would also be original research unless that has been reported by a reliable source.

Is there any disagreement about any other content issue? Are there any continuing issues about how to report the status of the web site? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

This goes in tandem with considering the site abandoned, but, the tense of the article seemed to be disputed. I placed it under past tense under the suggestion of the talk topics above me; the story of how that went is the same as considering the site abandoned.

As there have been no reliable sources on both considering the site abandoned or under maintenance, I wonder how it should be classified under these circumstances. Thought 1915 (talk) 01:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it's very hard to find an actual reference that would document that the site is abandoned. We might need to do a instead. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I would be fine with this. Thought 1915 (talk) 00:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Nice. Anyone else up for in place of a reference? Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 00:15, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

with what? ltbdl☃ (talk) 00:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Since it's hard to find a reference, it might just be easier to put a in place of it. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

placing a next to "is" is a little silly. ltbdl☃ (talk) 05:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

All I am saying is we just need to find some way to incorporate saying that the 15.ai platform has been abandoned, and write a at the end. I don't really care how it is placed, I guess it just needs to follow WP:MOS Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 11:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (15.ai)

Is there agreement now that the web site should be reported as abandoned, and that a {{citation needed}} note should be used for that statement? If so, do we have agreement, and is this issue resolved? If not, please state what the remaining disagreement is. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that reporting the site as abandoned and simply placing a *citation needed tag* is appropriate. I know of one editor who may oppose this decision, but said editor has not participated in any part of this dispute discussion yet. If I see that the majority of editors also share this sentiment, I feel that we could then talk about how to properly edit the site as abanoned and properly placing a *citation needed tag*. Thought 1915 (talk) 21:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

they’ll definitely oppose this decision, but i agree to this. ltbdl☃ (talk) 05:45, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I can only think of one singular editor who may oppose this. May you please elaborate? Thought 1915 (talk) 15:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

singular they ltbdl☃ (talk) 03:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I apologise for the confusion. Should we wait for their confirmation, or should something else be done? Thought 1915 (talk) 03:57, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

i'll notify them again, let's see if they answer. ltbdl☃ (talk) 01:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Im the person who proposed the replacement. We could for example place in the text, like this:

As of date, it is unknown if 15.ai is abandoned or not, as no activity has been seen in a long time.

(this is an example only)

in the event that it may not be suitable to just blatantly place a , To prove that this is abandoned, since we can't add original research as of WP:NOR, we might be able to use discussion threads as seen on Reddit and these other websites. I have provided the links to them below.

Link one

Link two

Link three

Link four

Link five

In my opinion, this one below might be the best as it is independent.You should still see the above references.

Link 6. I definitely think that a reliable source is needed, so here are some examples if the is not appropriate. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 02:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I worry that the referenced sites may not seem reliable, but I might be wrong. I feel more comfortable with using the *citation needed tag*. Thought 1915 (talk) 22:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Got it. Keep me updated if we see any good references. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 (Cheers! Let's Discuss over a cup of tea!) Celebrating 1000 Edits! 00:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry if this is informal, but I believe that we should try to finalise how we should edit the Wikipedia page as we search for sources. I like your proposal of a citation needed tag, and it seems many do as well. How should we go about finalising a decision or making the proposal more concrete? Thought 1915 (talk) 21:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Before we close this, we also could use the tag instead of (just saying before we finalize) Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 00:36, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

RocketKnightX made a response on their talk page:

Okay. So, 15 said "I've been alerted that there appears to be a coordinated attack against my project by another service, with affiliated groups spreading rumors that I had abandoned 15.ai, or that I had placed it behind a paywall, or that I had killed myself, etc. I assure you that I am still the same stubborn person I was three years ago when I first launched my project – please don't believe these malicious lies. I'm doing the best I can, and I'll always continue to do so." They tried to mean that the project was not abandoned and is in under maintenance, but some people still not convinced due to waiting too long. The only reason why the project isn't up is that it needs to be perfect, as quality is more important than quantity. RocketKnightX (talk) 21:05, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

ltbdl☃ (talk) 02:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Responding to the response made by @RocketKnightX:

The website has not even a placeholder page and its subdomain (tf2[dot]15[ai]) is being used for something completely unrelated. Although having absolutely no contact for 1.5 years is part of the reasoning, I feel that the subdomain usage should be a reason to consider.

I appologise if this breaks formality, but saying "only reason" in the last sentence severely oversimplifies the complexity of things. The last clause does not seem to have a relation to the topic. I would also like to mention that 15 has lied before; 15 went onto Twitter before finishing the site despite saying otherwise (the Wikipedia page logo was 15's former profile picture).

This is the responce to the suggestion by @Cooldudeseven7:

As for the *verification needed tag*, I ask if linking the subdomain and 15's other unrelated projects would be sufficient as verification. I personally prefer the *citation needed tag*, as I feel that the main problem is the reliability of the aquired sources for WIkipedian standards. Thought 1915 (talk) 03:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Alright! It seems that fits better.

I also saw some other things:

No source code in the website. At the moment, it's just a blank HTML page that has no actual content. the tf2dot15dotai website seems to be something related to a platform named "sourcebans", so it definitely isn't related to 15.ai and might just be the ban page of a team fortress two server. Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Wait a minute, I see this in the article:

In September 2022, a year after its last stable release, 15.ai was temporarily taken down in preparation for a future update. As of October 2024, the website is still offline, with 15's most recent post being dated February 2023.

Does this already count as "abandoned?" it has a reference, too.

Due to the recent posts by 15, we might have to instead write in the article

"Although there is supposedly supposed to be an update, due to the long time period, it is usually thought that 15.ai is abandoned.". We don't have to put it in the way I just put it- just an example. Thanks, Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I feel that it could if used alongside another tweet 15 said regarding an implied timeframe. But for "it is usually thought" in the text you suggested, I could place a couple user-generated content with this sentiment to back this statement up. I simply worry if citing user-generated content for opinions is considered reliable in terms of the types of citations that should be done. Thought 1915 (talk) 13:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with the tweet idea either, however it might be hard to find a notable one. Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 14:13, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I mean, very little independent sources regarding 15 are currently going around besides Tweets, the domains, and the sources you showed. This thread is getting quite long, so I plan on using the Editor Statement space to propose how the page should be edited once I have time. Thought 1915 (talk) 20:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (15.ai)

I, Thought 1915, would like to propose the following:
The article will be in the past tense since the website currently has no content. The state will be placed as abandoned with the tag added at the end, since most of the sources that prove this are either original research or not reliable yet. The tag will only be temporary until a reliable source proving it can be found.
For context behind stating this, I propose directly citing user sentiments as the reason and a lack of any response (this can include Tweets mentioning 15[dot]ai, the possible user threads shown, and the other projects being worked on.) As additional context, the subdomain and the side projects can be used as context and cited.
I apologize if this seems like a stretch, but I hope this proposal can help bring a consensus. I would also like to mention that an editor on one of the disputed page's talk pages made a very good point on how 15's work on other projects is good proof that the site is abandoned. If it would be possible to use the side projects as citations for the abandonment please tell me.
I also attempted to integrate all of the suggestions by the volunteer and other editors when creating this proposal, so please tell me if you have problems with the proposal or if you would like changes to it.
I hope for the best as Thought 1915 (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

This message is a copy of the message I sent to the moderator down below.

Instead of the direct statement of "the site is abandoned" We should take the idea of trying to say a text that I said earlier.

Personally, I think this text below shows that 15.ai may not be fully abandoned, but it is just thought by the community.

Although there is supposedly an update coming, due to the long time period, it is usually thought that 15.ai is abandoned.^{[citation needed]}

This text shows how 15.ai may still be alive but it is just thought that it is abandoned.

Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (15.ai)

The filing editor has been blocked indefinitely. However, there are remaining editors who originally said that the site was abandoned, and who said that it was under maintenance. So we can continue to work toward a version of the article that states that the site is abandoned, but is marked with a {{citation needed}} tag, or toward some similar compromise.

Are there any specific questions about how to revise the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Instead of the direct statement of "the site is abandoned" We should take the idea of trying to say a text that I said earlier.

Personally, I think this text below shows that 15.ai may not be fully abandoned, but it is just thought by the community.

Although there is supposedly an update coming, due to the long time period, it is usually thought that 15.ai is abandoned.^{[citation needed]}

This text shows how 15.ai may still be alive but it is just thought that it is abandoned. Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 11:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a fair compromise that I am fine with and that I feel that others would be fine with as well. I cannot speak for others however, so if anybody objects this, please say so.

For the "it is usually thought...." bit of the compromise, I assume that citing user-generated content showing the sentiment was decided against. Please correct me if I am wrong. Thought 1915 (talk) 12:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Alright! When do you think we should finalize the change if no one objects Cooldudeseven7 ^{tea talk} 12:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say the same day that one of the files on the page deletes itself for non-fair use (24 October, 2024). For confirmation, keep present tense, and add small section regarding community sense of abandonment, correct? Thought 1915 (talk) 13:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (15.ai)

The discussion between the editors about how to word the article seems to be constructive. At the start of this moderated discussion, I said not to engage in back-and-forth discussion, and that rule has been ignored, but has been ignored usefully, so I am suspending that rule. Please continue the discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Tuner (radio)

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Andrevan on 20:04, 9 October 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Tuner (radio) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Andrevan (talk · contribs)
• Kvng (talk · contribs)
• Fountains_of_Bryn_Mawr (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Are WP:GALLERY and other images appropriate to illustrate the progress and development of tuners over time and their varying design considerations?

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Tuner_(radio)#Image_gallery

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Users are arguing policy that doesn't exist or doesn't apply. I am trying to improve the article and these editors are throwing weight around without a sane rational basis to remove good faith improvements.

Summary of dispute by Kvng

WP:GALLERY is clear that these are generally undesirable. Andrevan claims that the gallery documents the development of tuners but I don't immediately get that from the pictures or captions. If we're going to try to tell that story, we need improvements but I'm not convinced telling this story is important and may introduce an WP:UNDUE issue. There is already a Commons link where these images can be perused by readers. ~Kvng (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Fountains_of_Bryn_Mawr

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Andrevan seems to be unaware of consensus guidelines on image use in articles,in this case adding 10 redundant[1] images of radio tuner face-plates, some scattered across unrelated sections. Trying to explan that Wikipedia is not a repository of images and that they should have MOS:PERTINENCE, be placed in context and against descriptive text, and be readable at thumbnail resulted in WP:ICANTHEARYOU on the part of Andrevan [2] [3] and reverts of any attempted improvement [4]. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Tuner (radio) discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Tuner)

I am ready to try to act as the moderator for discussion of this content dispute. Please read DRN Rule A. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of moderated discussion, as of any dispute resolution procedure, is to improve the article (not to address the conduct of the editors). Please state that you agree to follow the rules for the discussion. It appears that the main issue, or maybe the only issue, has to do with images. It seems that one editor wants to include a large number of images in the article, and two other editors disagree with the inclusion of the images. The editors have already referred to the image use policy and in particular the policy on image galleries, but please read it again. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

My first question is: Is there an issue about the inclusion of certain images in the article?

My second question is: Are there any other article content issues other than an image dispute? If so, what is the other issue?

My third and fourth questions are about the images. Third, are all of the images in Commons? If not, what is their copyright and fair use status? Fourth, will each editor please state concisely why they think that the the image use policy supports their view about images? Address all of your answers to the moderator (me) and the community. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Tuner)

1. The dispute is about the number of images and their MOS:PERTINENCE to the content.
2. I'm not aware of any other content dispute.
3. All images are in Commons and I don't know of any fair use issues.

~Kvng (talk) 20:08, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there an issue about the inclusion of certain images in the article?

Yes, Images unreadable at thumb MOS:IMAGEQUALITY --:> showing the subject too small... so Yamaha T-420, Onkyo T-4000 are too small - unreadable at thumb.

Are there any other article content issues other than an image dispute? If so, what is the other issue?

No

Are all of the images in Commons?

Yes

Please state concisely why they think that the the image use policy supports their view about images?

WP:IMAGEPOL - WP:IG is pretty clear:

• A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article - This is a shoehorn per adding editors own statement.

• a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the below paragraphs or moved to Wikimedia Commons. This is an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject, no way to discern one from the other or why they are there, and no way to improve the images - they are generally unreadable.other than looking like a tuner (and some of them don't even look like a tuner). And they are already in the Wikimedia Commons.

• cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images Text already describes the evolution of Tuners and, per the current text, two images are all you need: an image of tuner vacuum tubes, an image of tuner transistors.

• Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to an article or section within an article while avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made These images do not collectively add to the reader's understanding because they are barely readable and repetitive so no contrast or comparison can be made.

Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 02:07, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Yes, the issue is about the images. 2. No, there is no other dispute other than the value of the images and image gallery and whether it is telling a useful story or illustrating something useful. 3. All images are on Commons and there are no issues with copyright. 4. Basically my argument hinges on such text in WP:GALLERY as A gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images...Gallery images must collectively add to the reader's understanding of the subject without causing unbalance to an article or section within an article while avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made....Images should be captioned to explain their relevance to the article subject and to the theme of the gallery...Some subjects easily lend themselves to image-heavy articles for which image galleries are suitable, such as plants (e.g., Lily), fashion (e.g., Wedding dress), and the visual arts (e.g., Oil painting). Others do not My argument is that these images are not, as has been claimed, blurry, dark, unreadable, low quality, or redundant. They are clear illustrations of what a Tuner is and what a Tuner has looked like. They are selected to show a good cross-section of different images - front and back, inside and outside, Japanese, German, American, analog, digital, wood, metal, plastic, tube, solid state, etc. It is not necessary to be able to read the writing or the numbers, as those do not contribute to anything useful that isn't explained in the article itself. The point of the images is to illustrate consumer electronics and digital products industrial design. The arguments made don't hold up to scrutiny regarding the images or the policy or the consensus. Originally, I had placed the images all as thumbnails alongside the text, but I changed it to a gallery as many other articles do. There is no blanket consensus not to place these useful images, as has been claimed. If a specific image is perceived to be problematic, we could find a replacement or remove that one, but I do not see that overall, the criticisms that have been rendered on the images are policy-based or justifiable. Andre🚐 02:29, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

The galleries in the examples given in green text contribute to the article in specific ways. In Tuner (radio), the gallery is just dropped at the end of an already overloaded section. It may turn out that a gallery is a good thing to have in an improved version of the article. Per WP:DEMOLISH I'm not actually opposed to retaining it if that's where we're heading (I do, however, have some skepticism about how well that will work out) but I don't yet see the beginnings of any of that in the text. The only hints that this may be coming are talk page statements from Andrevan and inclusion of dates and countries in the gallery captions. If Andrevan can show us a source or two we can use to back the story of tuner development, that would help convince me that this direction has some promise. ~Kvng (talk) 14:14, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Tuner)

It appears that one editor wants to include a gallery of images of radio tuners, and two other editors disagree. I am asking each editor to provide a revised statement of why they think that the image gallery either is consistent with the policy on images or is not consistent with it. If there is no agreement, we will develop a Request for Comments on the yes-no question of whether to include the gallery in the article. So, in preparing your statement, develop a statement that will be included in the RFC for the attention of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Are there any other content issues?

First statements by editors (Tuner)

The image gallery is consistent with both the image use policy as well as the examples of many other articles which have detailed image galleries, much larger and taking up more space and more redundant than the modest image gallery on Tuner (radio). I originally created this article back in 2004 and it was in a very poor state until I started working on it again recently. I already have a detailed narrative in the works in the article with references, and a big part of that has to do with the early growth of the FM radio and TV and American consumer electronics industry after World War II, followed by the growth of electronics development and production primarily in Japan and the production of cheap, miniaturized transistors and the growth of digital electronics. That is illustrated by the photos which show the evolution of the tuner from the days of the vacuum tube to solid state circuit boards. You do not need to be an expert to understand what a tube is and what a board is and see the little capacitors and filters and stuff and then see how the analog knobs give way to digital, tape deck looking, black, plastic hi-fi. If the specific images look a bit bad to someone, I am open to swapping out the images for better-looking images, but there's absolutely no policy basis that categorically rules out having image galleries. I do not at all see how it is a constructive or consensus building activity to just come along and remove image galleries when many many other pages have them. The images I have selected for the page are a small sampling of the many images on Commons for this topic, the ones that have decent lighting and a well-framed subject that clearly shows what it is without bad framing, reflections or weird shadows or darkness. I've chosen a chronology from 1960 to 1990, and several American units, a German unit, and a Japanese unit, one of each showing the guts, ie tube, board, or another kind of board. In some cases it's the front and back of the same thing to show a different angle and give a better idea of what you're looking at. All of this to me is reasonable to try to show what a tuner is, which shows you something you don't get from the text. You wouldn't know that a vacuum tube is a weird round thingy like a tin can or that a ceramic filter is a tiny diode that solders onto a small lead, but you do actually kind of get that from the images. You wouldn't necessarily understand the idea of turning a dial to manipulate a radio if you never saw one in real life. There are kids on this website who were born in 2005 let's say, who have never seen one of these. I think they improve the article and improve Wikipedia. Andre🚐 08:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:IG Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery of images must explain (something). Images should not be redundant such as a 1960 dial with knobs, a 1977 dial with knobs and a 1978 dial with knobs. Parts on a circuit board are by their very nature hidden in clutter, ambiguous, and the subject is too small to be read at thumb. WP:OTHERCONTENT arguments are not a good reason to keep something. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 12:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I am on vacation this week and won't participate again until next week. Hopefully you can keep this moving based on what I've already said. ~Kvng (talk) 14:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Tuner)

I have created a draft RFC at Talk:Tuner (radio)/Gallery RFC. I am asking the proponent of including the image gallery to put the proposed image gallery in the draft RFC. It will go live after we review and discuss it. Do the editors want to include statements for and against the inclusion of the image gallery in the RFC, or are they satisfied to make their cases in the Discussion section when the RFC is live?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I added the gallery to it and I'm fine with the discussion having the statemens after live if everyone else is. Andre🚐 18:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Tuner)

I would like to include two concise statements, one in support of an image gallery, and one opposed to an image gallery for this article. Since one of the editors who opposes the image gallery is on break, probably the other one can compose the statement. After that is done, the RFC can be activated. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Wolf

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Nagging Prawn on 09:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Wolf (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nagging Prawn (talk · contribs)
• Wolverine_XI (talk · contribs)
• Moxy (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I attempted to add a sentence on the Wolf Wikipedia page citing a report from a peer-reviewed scientific journal of one wolf eating 181 Payette's Short-Winged Grasshoppers. Unfortunately, I encountered unexpected resistance, despite there having been no such disputes regarding this report in the citing literature. I was told to bring it up to the talk page, which I did. I was told to justify my edit, which I tried to do, citing precedent for similar dietary detail in other Wikipedia articles. An anonymous user concurred that it seemed worthy of inclusion, but I did not receive a rebuttal. After waiting for several weeks, I believed the support from a third party and lack of response otherwise might justify reverting the reversion. However, my edit was reverted again. Upon requesting reasons why this occurred on the talk page, I was told there was no context for the fact I was trying to add to the article. However, the citation provides this context, and upon mentioning this I received no response. After some days, I tried again to add this fact to the article, but after a few more days it was reverted again, with no new arguments given. As far as I can tell, this edit does not violate Wikipedia guidelines, so I am at a loss.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

I was told to open a topic about this on the Wolf talk page, so I acquiesced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wolf#Including_a_note_about_a_paper_reporting_a_lone_wolf_that_ate_181_grasshoppers When objections were raised, I made good faith attempts to address them in this topic.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Hopefully, I would like to be able to add this observation to the article, as it is such a surprising report. It neatly demonstrates the dietary breadth mentioned in the sentence that would have preceded this edit. Failing that, I would like robust reasons why this should be excluded. I hope moderation can encourage either the addition of this fact or meaningful dialogue about why it shouldn't be added.

Summary of dispute by Wolverine_XI

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

One wolf eating 181 grasshoppers is hardly surprising. Why this user keeps on pushing this useless fact is beyond me. I'd like to hear what others have to say. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 19:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Moxy

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Odd random trivia about ONE wolf WP:INDISCRIMINATE.Moxy🍁 11:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by board volunteer (NotAGenious)

I am willing to act as a meditator in this dispute. I have no connection to the article or any of the users involved.

DRN is a voluntary process, and further meditation is on hold pending a summary to be provided by User:Wolverine XI. Should he not respond by next Monday, the dispute will be moderated between only you two.

In the meantime, please confirm in the respective sections below that you agree on having a moderated dispute and will follow WP:DRNA. NotAGenious (talk) 14:26, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by Nagging Prawn (agreement on a moderated dispute and the ground rules)

I agree to a moderated dispute and accept the ground rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagging Prawn (talk • contribs) 03:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by Moxy (agreement on a moderated dispute and the ground rules)

Sure.Moxy🍁 12:39, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Wolf discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic

– New discussion.

Filed by Randomstaplers on 05:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Randomstaplers (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This is my first extensive talking through a semi-controversial dispute, so forgive me if I wasn't perfect.

So, for the past month, I've had a bit of a problem with the articles wording. I edited it, it was reverted, discussion ensued. Eventually, we settled on a consensus for about a month from Mid-September to October of 2024. It was on a dispute between findings from source C and this source J, which cites source P. This is reflected in Special:Permalink/1245461692 on September 13th.

In the meantime, I decided to post some information I'd found for readers to see. I was not warned about this behavior at the time, but I feel it necessary, because I don't censor my own thoughts and biases.

On October 17th, I noticed that there were text-source integrity issues with source C, first documented at Special:Permalink/1251618081.

As a result I felt the need to rephrase certain parts of the article to better reflect the newly found reliability problems.

As I said, I'm inexperienced, but I feel there might be a content problem here, especially after seeing the referencing problems in Special:Permalink/1251618081, and the use of sources by the review that have been rejected.

Anyways, I hope working through DRN will help us improve dispute resolution in the future, and highlight areas where I, and we, need improvement.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Clarifying policy, and also, what to do about this article, with regards to how it treats its references, linked here (archived)

Face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

(involved; apologies if I am not getting the formatting right) The fundamental problem here is that Randomstaplers is engaging in what another editor succinctly labeled perform[ing] amateur peer-review on WP:MEDRS sources - in this case, the Cochrane review article above called "Source C". [5] It is not the place of Wikpedia editors to negate the findings of such MEDRS sources based on personal analysis, only to reflect expert views as expressed in the highest quality published sources.

Yet, Randomstaplers is insisting on this edit. It contains the text A review from the Cochrane Collaboration, updated in 2023, claimed (contrary to the claims of some of its cited papers[165][166]) that masking had little effect on the spread of viral illness.[6] 6 is the Cochrane review itself; 165 and 166 are individual studies Cochrane cites, which Randomstaplers is here clearly using to argue against the review's conclusions. This is original research and completely contrary to the instructions of MEDRS.

That previous edit also has at least some other problems. It states about randomized controlled trials (RCTs) that Various reviews on RCTs find that masking reduces the rate of respiratory infection, but cites for this at least some sources that do not review RCTs at all, such as this and this. I can't ignore the irony that this is a clear lack of text-source integrity in their own content, the very thing they are accusing Cochrane of. Crossroads ^-talk- 22:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Face masks)

The filing editor has not listed and notified the other editors. One of the other editors has replied, and so does not need to be notified, but should be listed. Other editors who were involved in the discussion on the article talk page must be listed and notified. The filing editor and the editor who has replied should read DRN Rule D and the ArbCom ruling on COVID controversies, and should acknowledge that they have read those rules. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:36, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Acknowledged. I did notify @Bon Courage with substituted {{drn-notice}}, but they appear to have deleted the template. If we come to a resolution, we might need to notify a proxy editor, because I... kinda don't want to be the one to write it.

Just to respond to you @Crossroads, the reason why I was initially compelled to edit was because RCTs on masks didn't seem to pass the sniff test, which is an engineered object... like a life jacket. I don't think it's reasonable to assign so much prominence to an life jacket RCT, which is the way I see a mask RCT: an RCT on an engineered object?

Because I had a feeling that my edits might be problematic, I created a talk page thread going through the process to explain my edits, and to verify my own edits again in the future. I called it "Removal of RCTs in progress"... well, I meant removal of some RCTs to try and reduce its prominence, but... how it sounded in my head clearly didn't translate well. I changed it only recently, after I read it to myself again.

Also, US regulation 29 CFR 1910.134(C), and especially This NIOSH publication from 1992 on Wikisource might be helpful to understand my point of view. In any case, I decided to reduce the prominence a bit more than I think is reasonable now, and might not have read the papers in their entirety. Also, I edit a lot of respirator articles. I guess... writing too much on certain topic, on Wikipedia, no less, can shift your POV.

(You know, I expected papers to cite 1910.134 more, since that would make better sense as an RCT behaviorally, but that's besides the point- I wanted to show why I was reducing the weight of RCTs in the article. I felt that the lessened burden of policy on talk pages would allow me to express myself better, but it didn't translate well this time).

I also noticed that the section in question, efficacy, was in thread mode. Tried to address that earlier, and decided to drop it pending further consensus. Only my additions got kept.

Before the compromise came, I suggested Help:How to mine a source, because the more sources we cite, the more likely we might cite a source that may be dubious. Crossroads did bring up a good point to include a variety of sources, and that's what convinced me at the time to the compromise.

Basically, my initial goal was trying to adjust the article to match what I thought was due weight, based on my previous editing history to other articles. But... that was a month ago, and we came to a consensus.

The latest change came from me noticing that source C and its references (archived) did not notify readers that certain papers had their protocols fail, particularly Alfelali 2020. This, I feel, warrants some sort of change. (In addition, the mislink on Aelami 2015 Archive today made me extra suspicious.) What I was doing was checking the reference's references. I thought I read the policy somewhere, but I forget what it's called.

In any case, journal mishaps do happen from time to time - The Lancet MMR, Cold Fusion, and the Schön scandal are what come to mind, at least for me. And the lying by omission about your references kind of reminded me of The Bell Curve.

We staged a rollout so everyone could check. To try and make the article more readable and avoid thread mode, I tried to consolidate all the RCT papers in support of masking, expanded one example and note the discrepancy in source C, linked here: Special:Diff/1251793797. That edit was reverted, and here we are.

I made several bold changes to the article to address these changes, expecting more editing than reverts, because of Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary, but eh, whatever. I make a lot of typos, and spend more time on articles doubting myself as a result.

Anyways I think that about covers it. Any thoughts?⸺(Random)staplers 06:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oh, and one more thing about my initial surprise at source C. It was directed at the source, not to anyone in particular. I was having my mind blown! Like, how could source C, that's been updated many times since 2007, still contain a mislink and omission of facts? Like, do I have to verify each paper's bibliography, from now on, before I can use it? Just to be sure they aren't lying by omission?
• And, as for the mislinked Pubmed from Alemani 2015 showing an experiment done through a modified mas, with significantly less filter surface area, that also blew my mind. You can't call that an N95 respirator anymore according to OSHA, and it voids the NIOSH approval...!⸺(Random)staplers 06:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)