Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 1 of. 18

Condensed Transcript
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

PATRICK CARIOU,

Plaintiff,
vs.

Index No.:

08 CIV 11327 (DAB)

RICHARD PRINCE, GAGOSIAN GALLERY, INC., LAWRENCE GAGOSIAN, and RIZZOLI INTERNATIONAL PUBLICATIONS, INC.,
Defendants.

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
RICHARD PRINCE

,)

October 6, 2009
10:00 a.m.

140 Broadway New York, New York

Reported By: Bryan Nilsen, RPR

e ESQl!IR~

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Richard Prince
1

Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 2 of 18

October 6 1 200~
7

2
3 4

Prince 1
5
2
3

Pnce THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Wil the court

reporter please swear in the witness.

-".,~
f~d;~:r,:; '.

5 6
7
8

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, 4 by and among the attorneys for the 5

respective parties herein, that filing and 6 sealing be and the same are hereby waived. 7
8

R i C H A R D P R I N C E, called as a
witness, having been duly sworn by a Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows: THE COURT REPORTER: Please state your name and address for the record.

IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 9

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

that all objections, except as to the form 10

time of the triaL. 12

13 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 14

of the question, shall be reserved to the 11

THE WITNESS: Richard Prince,

151 Righter Road, Rensselaervile, New York 12147.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BROOKS:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Pnce. My name

that the within deposition may be sworn to 15

and signed before any offcer authorized 16 to administer an oath, with the same force 17

and effect as if signed and sworn to 18

before the Court, 19

20 21 22 23
24

is Daniel Brooks. i represent Patck Cariou

the plaintiff in this case. Can you tell us what your occupation

is?

A. I'm an artist. Q. i understand you were born in the

Canal Zone -A. Yes.
8

25
6

25

2 3

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is tape 2

number 1 in the videotaped deposition of 3

Prince 1

Prince
Q. - is that correct?

4 5
6

Richard Prince, in the matter of Caou 4 versus Richard Prince, being heard before 5

In 1949? A. Yes.
Q. Did you attend school there?

7
8

of New York. 7
the U.S. District Court, Southern District 6

A. No, I didn't. Q. Where did you attend pmary school?

A. Outside of Boston, a town called

This deposition is being held at 8

Schnader Harrison Segal, 140 Broadway, 9

New York, New York, on October 6, 2009. 10

Braintree, Massachusetts.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

My name is Peter Ledwith. . I'm the 12 videographer. The court reporter is Bryan 13

The time is 10:15 a.m. 11

Q. Was it a boarding school or did you

live there?

Nilsen. 14
Counsel, wil you please introduce 15
MR. SHERMAN: John Sherman, counsel 22

A. What age are you taiking about?

Q. Okay, let me back up.

How long did you live in the Canal

Gallery. 12 1
for Rizzoli International Publications. 23

MS. BART: Holls Gonerka Bart, 19 counsel for Larry Gagosian and Gagosian 20

for Richard Prince. 18

yourselves and who you represent. 16 MR. HAYES: Steven Hayes, counsel 17

Zone? A. We moved when I was about six years

old.
Q. To Massachusetts?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the six years you spent in the

Canal Zone affect your later work in any way? MR. HAYES: As an artst you're talking about?

25

Boden for the plaintiff. 25

MR. BROOKS: Dan Brooks and Eric 24

MR. BROOKS: Yes.

ESQ UalBJ;;'

A. Recently, yes.
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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Richard Prince

9

Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 3 of 18 October 6, 2009

11
Pnce
course or courses that you took at that college?

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1 Q. Prince 1 2 How so? 2 3 A. I paid a visit to what is now called 3

12 A. Yes, in the form of a pitch or a 12
14 sort of made up a story that I felt that could 14 15 be descbed with the title Canal Zone. i very 15
16 much liked the idea that the name of the place 16
13 screenplay that I wrote, and then I subsequently 13

11 Canal Zone book? 11

10 creation of the works of art that are in the 10

9 but did some of that thinking enter into your 9

7 place that I was born in. 7 8 O. We'll get to this later obviously, 8

6 think about -- I started to think about the 6

4 Panama about three years ago, three or four 4 5 years ago. I'm not sure. And I started to 5

A. Mostly it was figure studies. I studied the figure. I went to classes where
they had models. Q. And what medium were you working in in these courses?

A. Pencil, watercolor, collage, pen and

ink.

O. How many years did you attend Nasson

College?
A. Four years. O. Did you graduate?

A. Yes.
Q. With a degree in what?

21 this later, but the pitch that you say you 21

22 wrote, was it originally called Eden Rock? 22

19 Panama. 19 20 O. The pitch -- and again, we'll get to 20

18 longer called it the Canal Zone, they call it 18

17 that I was born had disappeared, that they no 17

A. I guess liberal arts. O. ABA?

A. Yes.

Q. After college did there come a time when you started working in New York City for Time Life Magazines? A. Yes.

25 Q. And that is a hotel in St. Barth's? 25

10
1

24 was Eden Rock, yes. 24

23 A. I think one of the working titles 23

O. When was that, approximately?

A. 1975.

O. And when did you finish college?

2
3

A. Yes, I believe so, yes. 2

Pnce 1

12
Prince

A. '71.
O. What was the nature of your job or
jobs at Time Life?
A. I worked for a number of jobs.

MR. BROOKS: S-T, peod, B-A-R-T-H, 3

4
5 6 7
8 9

10 11 12 13
14

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Yes. 10 Q. InYes. Maine? 14 A. 15 college? 17 A. Yes. 18 Nasson College? 20 A. Yes. 21 courses? 23

A. Yes, I did attend college. 11
Q. What was the name of the college? 12

school? 8
A. You mean college education? 9
A. Nasson, N-A-S-S-O-N, College. 13
Q. Was that a small

from now on. 5 BY MR. BROOKS: 6 Q. Do you have any education after high 7
apostrophe S, that's how we'll spell it 4

First one was I worked in what they called the employee bookstore. That was my main job. And I worked -- I believe the title is called copy process, which was teang up the various magazines that they published. In those days, prett primitive, precomputer, we would tear up the magazine and

hand the editorial-- they were called hard

copies -- to the people who wrote those stoes.
O. Tear sheets?

liberal arts 16

A. Tear sheets.
O. And was this advertising or actual
editonal -- non-advertising content?

Q. Did you take any art courses at 19

A. What they wanted, what we would put

in these tubes and send, what they wanted was the editorial copy.

Q. Briefly, can you describe the art 25

A. No. 24

Q. Did you take any photography 22

O. Articles? A. Articles, yes, for the vaous -I believe at the

time they published seven

magazines.
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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

13

Filed 05/14/10 Page 4 of 18

October 6 1 200~
15
Prince Q. Did you have a solo exhibition at
the Ellen Sragow Gallery?

6 O. -- that you encountered there? 6

10 essentially from magazines that Time Life 10

4 -- 5 4 5 images A. Yes.

2 O. While you were employed by Time Life 2

1 Prince 1

3 did you begin a practice of rephotographing 3

:t." "

r:-,': "~

~.

A. Sragow, I believe.
Q. Sragow?
A. Yes. Q. When was that?

7 A. 1977 I made a breakthrough in terms 7

9 started to rephotograph images that were 9

8 of what I considered a breakthrough, and I 8

A. It waS a long time ago.

MR. HAYES: If you recall. If you don't recall, say so.
A. Well, '76 maybe.

17 Q. What was the nature of those photos? 17

16 A. Yes. 16

13 A. Strctly advertisements, yes. 13

11 published and also the New York Times magazine. 11 12 O. Were the images advertisements? 12

Q. And what was the content of the

exhibition?

14 Q. In 1977 did you rephotograph four 14

15 photos from the New York Times magazine section? 15

A. I guess you could describe the -it's hard -- I believe they were images with

19 advertisements. I don't recall who was the 19

18 A. They were images of living rooms, 18

text. They would refer to it at the time as narrative art.

23 Q. And when you rephotographed those 23

22 I believe. 22
2 A. No, I didn't.

20 advertiser, but -- and I believe they appeared 20

A. They were stories that I had made up

about various locations in which I had visited.
O. And what medium were the images?

O. Were the --

21 sequentially once -- once a week for four weeks 21

A. I think they were drawing. I think

on one piece of paper it was drawing, and I believe the -- photographs -- text that was put out with a typewriter, and a lot of what was

25 them? Did you exhibit them anywhere? ?5

24 four images what, if anything, did you do with 24

1 Prince

14

1 Prince

16

2 then called white-out, which was a kind of

3 liquid paint that you used to correct a typo.

3 Q. Did some controversy ase from your

5 A. Not at the time, no. 6 Q. At a later time?

4 rephotographing those four images?

4 Q. At some point did you begin

5 rephotographing ads for Marlboro cigarettes?

7 A. A controversy? I think -- no, I

8 would more describe it as just people were very
9 perplexed and didn't particularly know what they

7 the first one.

6 A. I started that I believe in 1980 was

8 Q. And this has been known as the

10 were looking at, because of the nature of the 11 transformation. It was a real photograph that i 12 was showing, not an image that I had tom out of 13 the magazine. Which is essentially when I first 14 tore it, it was a collage. i collaged it onto 15 paper. That's the very first way I showed the 16 images.
17 But

10 A. I referred to them -- yes. I

11 started titling them Untitled, parentheses, 12 Cowboys.
13 Q. And you say you started in 1980?

9 Marlboro Cowboy photographs?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How long did you continue engaging

I decided -- i mean that was

18 the breakthrough, was taking the apparatus,the

19 camera, and making a real photograph.

17 A. Until - I believe the last ones

18 were done in 1999.

16 in that practice?

19 Q. How did you obtain the images of the

20 Marlboro cowboys? 21 A. They used to come out -- when I was

20 Q. A photograph of a photograph?

21 A. Well, it was a photograph of -- no,

23 a page -25 A. -- in

22 it wasn't a photograph. It was a photograph of

22 working at Time Life they would come out - we'd

23 get the magazines on Monday, and they would.

24 Q. From the magazine?

the magazine.

24 appear in the magazine -- in the vaous

25 magazines.

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25

Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 5 of 18 October 6, 2009

27
Prince BY MR BROOKS: Q. So just tell us what, if anything, you reviewed before coming here today to prepare
for this deposition?

~~~;\

2
3
4

MR. HAYES: Also, it seems to be 2

attempting to turn him into some kind of 3

Prince 1

5
6

A. I mean, you know, this type of 6

language I -- you know, is not something that I 7

conclusion. 5
Have you ever been sued before this 11

expert, but primarily calls for a legal 4

A. I didn't really do anything. I

just -- l wasn't even sure what I was supposed

7
8 9

feel comfortable commenting on. 8

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
~O

Q. Very well. 9 Let me just back up. 10

to do today.
Q. Did you meet with any lawyers--

lawsuit in any court? 12

lawsuit or arbitration? 17

A. No. 15
A. No, I've never been sued. 13

without getting into what you said to them or they said to you, did you meet with any lawyers to prepare for this deposition?

Q. Not by Garr Gross? 14

A. I met with -- yeah, I met with Steven.

Q. Mr. Hayes? A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever been a party to any 16

21 22 ?3 ?4 ?5

taken before today? 22

prepare for this deposition? 25
26
Prince
1

A. No. 23
Q. What, if anything, did you do to 24
2
3 4 5 6 7 8

Q. Have you ever sued anyone? 19 A. No, I've never sued anybody. 20
Q. Have you ever had your deposition 21

A. Not that I believe, no. 18

Q. Just the two of you?

A. Yes.

Q. No one else was present during the

meeting?
A. No.

Q. Okay. Let me go back to this answer

to paragraph 13 on page 3 of Exhibit 2. And
perhaps we can break this down so it's more

digestible.

28
Pnce
The answer says that you were not specifically authozed to use Plaintif's photographs, do you see that?

2
3

A. I went over -MR. HAYES: I'LL caution the witness not to talk about any conversations with counseL. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? MR. HAYES: Don't talk about the substance of any conversations with counsel as protected by attorney/client privilege.

4 5 6 7
8

A. I wasn't specifically authorized? Q. That's what this says.

A. Okay.

Q. Is that true?
MR. HAYES: Object to the form
of the question, calls for a legal

10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17

A. I didn't really do much.

Q. Tell us what you did, even if it was very little, without divulging conversations with your lawyer.

A. I talked to my wife about it.

Q. Did you review any documents?

A. Documents -- what type of documents?

Q. Well, for instance, books, your book, the Canal Zone book? MR. HAYES: Objection. Objection.
i understand that that's not a proper
question. That's work

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

conclusion.
You can answer if you understand it.
Q. You can answer.

A. I stil don't understand why I'm -I wasn't specifically authozed.

Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Caou, who is

sitting here, the plaintiff, for permission to use his photographs from the Yes Rasta book?

A. .1 didn't really use his photographs.

product. MR. BROOKS: Are you directing him

not to answer? MR. HAYES: No, I'LL let him answer.

20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. Okay. Did you make use of them in

any way?

A. I made use of them, yes.

Q. Did you ask for his permission to
make use of them? A. No.
.

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Richard Prince

Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

29

Filed 05/14/10 Page 6 of 18 October 6, 200?

31
Prtnce
answer says here this was proper under -- it was appropriate under applicable law, do you have any idea what that refers to? MR. HAYES: Again, same objections, calls for an expert conclusion -A. No. MR. HAYES: -- and is not a proper

8 Q. Now, you say that the use you made 8

4 A. No. 4 6 to use the photographs? 6 7 A. No. 7

2 Q. Did he specifically give you 2 3 permission to use -- 3

1 Prince 1

,~

5 Q. Did he generally give you permission 5

10 This answer says that the use you 10

11 made of portions of the photographs in your 11

9 of the portions of the photographs -- withdrawn. 9

question.
MR. BROOKS: Right. But it's in his answer so I just want to see if he knows

13 agree with that? 13 14 MR. HAYES: Again, object to the 14

16 asks for a legal conclusion and attempts 16
15 form of the question on the grounds it 15

12 artorks was a proper artistic practice. Do you 12

what that means.

A. No.
Q. You have no idea?

A. No.

Q. I'd like to discuss with you your

artistic practice, quote/unquote, artistic practice, a term used in the answer, which I understand you've never seen the answer before. You are an artist, so I assume you have an artistic practice?

22 they were for proper artistic practice, that's 22 23 a -- that's something I can't really -- I would 23
30

21 photographs that appear in his book. Whether 21

19 you understand it. 19 20 A. I did use, in fact, portions of 20

18 But you can answer the question if 18

1 7 to make the witness an expert. 17

A. I'd like to think so, yes.

Q. Okay.

25 there's any type of definition for proper 25

24 have to define proper. And I'm not sure if 24

MR. BROOKS: Let's mark as

Plaintiffs Exhibit 3 two pages which have

3 But I did, in fact, use portions of

4 images that appear in his books. Eventually, 5 for paintings that I made into this -- they 6 were sort of ingredient -- part of a recipe
7 ingredients that were eventually made into this

2 artistic practice.

1 Prtnce

2 been Bates stamped by us C57 and 58 when 3 they were produced in discovery.

1 Prince

32
-\.

4 MS. BART: Yesterday, correct? 5 MR. BROOKS: No, about six months

6 ago.

8 show that I titled Canal Zone.

11 A. No. 12 Q. -- artorks? 13 A. No.

14 Q. The subject was some 15 post-apocalyptic vision of what would happen

10 your--

9 Q. Were his photographs the subject of

10 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 3, two-page

7 MS. BART: The oginal production. 8 MR. BROOKS: The initial disclosure 9 I should say.

11 printout from website, was marked for 12 identification, as of this date.)

14 A. Yes, I do. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Pnce, you have a website?

17 A. No, that was -- that's a subtext of

18 the whole Canal Zone type of pitch. It first 19 appeared when i was thinking about this project.

16 after a nuclear war on a remote island?

17 Q. The first page of Exhibit 3 is a

20 Q. And on the table in the photograph

16 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it ww.RichardPrinceArt.com?

20 Q. Okay. You know what, we'll get to

21 that. I've got -- your lawyers producedo all the

19 A. Yes.

18 photograph of somebody. Is that you?

22 documents. We'll go through them.

23 A. Okay.

23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is

21 there seems to be a book with some -- it looks 22 like a cowboy on a horse?

that a book with some of these

24 Q. And I'm prett sure what your answer

25 is going to be, but when you say -- when the

ESQUall1g

25 Marlboro cowboys we were talking about before?

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1

Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

37
Prince
wakefulness, unquote.

Filed 05/14/10 Page 7 of 18 October 6, 2009 i

39
Pnce
the Canal Zone show isn't is a fact that you scanned some of Plaintiff's images directly onto the canvas? A. No.

2
3

Q.

(Clarification by reporter.) Again, those were your words in

1 2 3 4

5
6 7

1978?
A.

Yes.

8 9
0 1

12 13
4

Q. When you would -- now, I'm asking about the first series of sentences. Okay? A. Mm-hmm. Q. Practicing without a license. When you would rephotograph would you actually use a camera?
A.

7
8

MR. HAYES: Objection. MS. BART: Objection, form.

A.

Q.

No. Did somebody do that at your

Yes.

10 11 12 13
14

request? MS. BART: Same objection.

A. What i would do is send -- after I tore the image out of the book -Q. You're talking about Plaintiff's

15
P-6

17 18
9 ')0

Q. So you would take an analog photograph of some image, is that right? A. I would take a slide. i was using slide film. Q. And then develop it?
A.
i would send it to a commercial lab

15 16 17 18 19

book?
A.

Yes.
i would send it off to a commercial
.

lab. And i believe it's called inkjet process.

Q. Right. A. Now, i don't know too much about it except that it -- you're able to reproduce in almost any scale onto different surfaces. The surface which I chose was canvas. Q. Right. And the name of the lab that you used?

?1 ?2
3
124

and have it developed. Q. Now, in this digital age that we're in now are you able to appropriate images without actually using a camera?

20
21 22 23 24 25

MR. HAYES: Objection to the form of

the question. Without actually using a

125

38
1

40
1

Prince

2
3

camera?
Q. Well, for instance, like if you see a photograph somewhere you can -- is it possible to scan it and enlarge it? A. I suppose so. Q. And do a high-definition copy of it without using a camera? MR. HAYES: If you know. A. I guess so. MS. BART: Excuse me, I'd like to

2 3

A.

Prince NancyScans.
Where are they located? Chatham, New York. Chatham, New York.

4
5 6

Q.
A.

4
5
6

Q.
A.

7
8

Near where you live Upstate?

It's about an hour, yes. Q. And that's why -- we'll get to this again later -A. Okay. Q. - but in the book, the Canal Zone book, it says the images -- some of your paintings rather, are inkjet and acrylic on canvas, correct?
A.

7
8

10 11
12 13 14

9
0 1

hear the question back, please. (Record read.) MR. HAYES: i attempted to interpose
an objection that the question calls for
speculation, and I'LL do that now.

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

2 3 !i4

5
6
7 8

Yes.
And other material? And other mediums, yeah. Have you ever heard of an inkjet
. Meaning other than in this context

MR. BROOKS: Okay.

BY MR. BROOKS: Q. But you can answer. A. I guess so. Q. Well, you guess so? MR. HAYES: Don't guess. If you know, say so. If you don't, say so. A. Yes, I believe you can. Yes. Q. In creating the works that were in

Q.
A.

Q.

b
t22 t23 ')4 ')5

printer? MR. HAYES: Objection.

23 24 25

or?
MR. BROOKS: No, just in generaL
A. i don't understand -- heard of an inkiet printer?
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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Richard Prince

41
1
2 3

Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 8 of 18 October 6, 2009

43

Prince
Q. Have you ever gone into like a Kinko's and asked them to make a copy for you? A. No. Q. Do you have a printer at home? A. No, I don't. Q. In your studio? A. No. Q. Do you have a computer? A. I have a computer. Q. Let me ask you a few questions about the 1978 -- I'm going to call it an essay. MR. HAYES: That's fine. MR. BROOKS: I understand it's not
an essay.

Prince
interested in reflecting about what was going on at the time. I believe I was, what, twenty --

2
3 4 5

4 5
6

MR. HAYES: Nine.

A. Twenty-nine.

I had only been in New York for four

7 8

7
8

or five years. I was also very interested in

the whole punk rock movement and felt very much a part of that atttude. And the idea of not liking your own work I thought was a kind of avant-garde, revolutionary, very poetic position to take at

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

10 11 12 13
14 15

the time. Because most artists you meet have

these large egos and love what they do. So

took the opposite point of view.

19 20
21 22 23 24 25

MR. HAYES: Yeah, he adopted the term. As long as we're clear it's an adopted term, that's fine. No problem. BY MR. BROOKS: Q. Was it ever published anywhere, Appropriation 1978, other than on your website?
A.

The Appropriation 1978?

Right. A. I think a form of it or another -maybe another edit of it was probably -- some of
Q.

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. And why did you feel that it was,

quote, more satisfying to appropriate? A. I felt that, you know, again, I like the idea of having a bit or a part or a share of a public image, much like the pp artists who I

very much grew up with. And i was especially

enamored of Andy Warhol at the time. And I felt that i wanted to contribute to something that already existed in the world.

42
1

44
1

Prince
the sentence structure was probably used. I know the general lowering of wakefulness was used in a book that I wrote called Why I Go to the Movies Alone. Q. That was the name of your book?
A.

Prince

2
3 4

2
3

Q. You're speaking in the past tense,

fair enough, because I'm asking you about -A. Yeah, this is what I'm -- I'm trying to approximate what i was feeling thirt years

5
6 7 8 9

4 5
6

Yes.
And do you know when that book came

7
8

ago. Q. Let's talk about now. Do you stil

find it more satisfying to appropriate than to create your own work?

Q.

out?
1983. Q. With respect to the essay, it states appropriation has to do with the inabifty of the author slash artist to like his or her own work. Do you feel that you have an inability to like your own work? A. I think at the time I wrote it I was -- I was very interested in anti-expressionism. I was very interested in
A.

10 11 12
13 14

10
1 2
3

A. Yeah, I do. I feel that i like to

get as much fact into my work and reduce the amount of speculation. I believe there's too much -- I like an artork where that when you see something, like a cowboy ora girlfriend, I mean these are, in fact, true.
Q. Or a nurse?

14
5 p-6
p- 7

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Or a nurse, or a hood.
Q. And you feel, if it's not yours -MR. HAYES: Let him finish. MR. BROOKS: I'm sorry. MR. HAYES: Have you finished your

li8
9 ?O

works or artorks that did not have to do with

personal dreams. I was very interested in making things up and fiction and turning the fiction into something that you can believe in. Again, I have to say also that in this year, especially '77 to '78, I was also

?1
22
3 124

answer?
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. . Yes. Q. And you feel if it's not yours it's
more believable to the audience?
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Richard Prince

Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

45

Filed 05/14/10 Page 9 of 18

October 6 1 200~
47
. (~:~~"\

1 Pnce 2 MR. HAYES: Objection,

3 mischaracterizes what he said.

2 Monday.

1 Prince

4 But if you want -- you can respond

6 A. I feel it's totally mine.

5 to that if you want, but the statement --

4 that.

3 MR. BROOKS: Well, I can't help

5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 4, interview,

7 Q. Okay. But in the essay you said you

8 find appropriating satisfying especially if you

9 are attempting to produce work with a certain

7 date.)

6 was marked for identification, as of this

8 O. Mr. Prince, you've been handed

10 believabilty?

9 what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 4.

11 A. Yes.

10 Do you recall being interviewed in

11 ArtForum Magazine in 2003?

12 Q. So there's something about

12 A. Boy. I don't really recall being

13 interviewed, no.
14 O. Do you know who Steve Lafreniere is?

17 Q. Do you stil feel that way? 18 A. Probably not as much as I did in

16 A. I guess you can say that, yes.

13 appropriating images from other people that 14 helps you make a work of art that's more 15 believable, is that right?

16 O. Let's look at the second page of

17 this exhibit. And there's a question up at the 18 top where the interviewer is asking, I'd always

15 A. No, I don't.

21 A. I think you could say that.

?2 Q. Is it

19 1978. 20 Q. But to some extent?

19 assumed that you purposely made your early

20 photos have an amateur look and that you'd done

21 them quickly, but looking at them today would

22 suggest otherwise. How worked on were pictures

part of your message now that

123 your artork is more believable because it was

23 like Untitled, three women looking in the same

124 taken from someone else?

46
1

25 A. I don't have a -- I don't really

Prince
have a message.

24 direction, 1980.

25 Before i read the answer, did you

2
3

2 have a work Untitled with three women looking in

1 Pnce

48

Q. Okay. Is appropriating images from

other people, does that also make your job easier in creating a new image?

4 5
6

4 A. Yes.

3 the same direction in 1980, if you recall?

5 Q. And here's what appears to be your

7
8

A. No. Not really, no. Q. Does it make it harder? A. No, it's just something that -something that i do and i love to do, and I've always -- you know, I've been doing this for
quite a while.

6 answer. RP, i had limited technical skils

7 regarding the camera. Actually, i had no

8 skils. I played the camera. i used a cheap

9 commercial lab to blowup the pictures. I made 10 editions of two. i never went into a darkroom. 11 And yes, I really worked hard on Women, capital 12 W, peod. i mean that piece stil looks like

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
118
119 120

Q. Right.
When you began to engage in the practice of rephotographing the work of others did you consider yourself at that time to be a

13 it was purposely made.

skiled photographer?
A. No.

MR. BROOKS: Let's mark as

Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 an article, or actually an interview with Bates stamp pages C226 through 228. And this was I believe produced in. response to your discovery requests on Friday.

16 Q. And was it a true statement? 17 A. Yes, it was. It's absolutely true. 18 Q. The next question says, So you sort
19 of fell into photography, and the answer is, In 20 the early '80s I didn't have the subject matter 21 for painting, I didn't have the, quote, jokes, 22 initial cap J, unquote, unti 1986. What I did 23 have was magazines. I was working at Time Life
24 and was surrounded by magazines. I wanted to

15 A.Yes.

14 Do you recall making this statement?

21 ?2 ?3
')4

?5

MS. BART: We got them actually on

25 present the images I saw in these magazines as

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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Richard Prince

49
1

Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 10 of 18 October 6, 2009

51

Prince
naturally as when they first appeared. Making a photograph of them seemed the best way to do it. I didn't exactly, quote, fall, unquote, as much as steal, period. Did you make that statement? A. Yes, I did. Q. Was that a true statement? A. Yes, it is. Q. When you said you had no skills, I mean what did you mean? A. I didn't have any skils. I had never rally -- I liked the idea of not knowing how to use a mechanical apparatus at the time. I didn't know anything about the medium. Q. Right. Do you remember saying in a subsequent interview that you destroyed

Prince
And the part was this idea of the artist as a kind of cliche. And I was very much an outsider. And I was interested in playing a
role. Again, fictionalizing myself.

2
3 4

2
3

5
6

7
8

4 5 6 7
8

Q.
A.

As an outlaw?

Q.

Yes. Kind of like Robin Hood stealing

from Philp Morris?

10 11 12 13
14

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25

photography?
A. Yes, I shot the sheriff or something like that. Yeah, I did. Q. What did you mean by that? A. I changed it. I revolutionized it. Q. How? A. i changed it completely.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

MR. HAYES: Objection to the form.

A.

No.

MR. HAYES: Objection. A. No. i was making things up.

Right. i was extremely -- to tell you the truth, I was extremely conservative, on the other hand, in terms of my artistic attitude. And I knew that in order to maybe discover something new i had to change a bit and take on another persona. And I felt that by playing, quote, as I said in the interview, the camera, just like a punk rock guitarist who picks up a guitar, seven days later he's playing on stage. He doesn't know how to play the guitar, but it's his inabilty which shines
Q.
A.

20 21 22 23
24

25

50
1

52
1

Q.
A.

Prince How?
Well, rephotography actually you

Prince
through, which is really exciting. And the fact that he's not a virtuoso -- it's the very limitations I think

2
3

3
4

could -- thirt years later people download.

You could actually substitute the word download for rephotography. I mean i did it. Q. Download an image on your computer? A. It's the same thing really. Q. And scan it -A. i mean I'm talking poetically here, philosophically. Again, it's all an expementation. But I did destroy and change the whole -- the whole medium actually. And that's what i was trying to do at the time was revolutionize an artistic

4
5

5
6

that make -- can actually make great art. And

that's basically what all this, these two essays and these two quotes in this particular interview is about.

7
8

6 7
8

10 11 12
13 14 15

MR. BROOKS: Let's mark as

Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 two pages Bates stamped C229 and 230. It's a portion of -- or it is an

10 11 12
13 14 15 16

interview in French. MS. BART: Do you have an English

translation for the witness and counsel?

16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

practice that up to that time was prett boring,

really. Q. In the essays we looked at in the previous exhibit, Exhibit 3. A. Mm-hmm. Q. 1977 and 1978 essays, and in this interview in 2003, were you trying to depict yourself as an outlaw or a rebel?

MR. BROOKS: Later. That wil be

Exhibit 6. I'm on Exhibit 5.
MS.

17 18 19
120

BART: Well, I'd like to have

a copy of the translation so that I can

determine whether or not i need to object

to any of your questions with this exhibit. MR. BROQKS: Okay. All right. Fine. MS. BART: Excuse me, I'd like to
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21 22
23

MR. HAYES: Object to the form.

A.

)4
125

I think I was playing a part, yes.

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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

85

Filed 05/14/10 Page 11 of 18

October 6, 200s)
87

Prince
A.

2
3 4

Yes.
-- essay or story?

1 2
3

Prince
that a reference to his story? MR. HAYES: If you know. Q. If you know. A. No, I don't know. Q. Everyhing is if you know. A. No, I don't know. Q. And it says all artworks copyright 2008 Richard Prince, insert images copyright

c-.'" , '-

Q.
A.

Yes.

5
6
7 8

Q. Do you know where those cartoons came from? A. They came from my collecting cartoon

4 5
6

7
8

books.
Q. But then there were litte captions, were those original into the cartoons? A. I don't recall if they were original
or not.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
Q2

Q. For instance, How do I know you won't kiss and tell? A. Right. I don't know if they were -I might have made up my own captions, I often

10 11 12 13 14

2008 Richard Prince. Do you see that? A. Yes.

Have you ever seen that before? If I did I never really paid attention to it. Q. And then at the bottom of the page it says all rights reserved, no part of this publication may be used or reproduced in any manner whatsoever without prior written

Q.

A.

is
16 17

do, to mismatch. And I believe those cartoons

were collaged onto palm trees, which I -- it was part of my contbution to the cartoon to make it different and suggested again the jungles of

Panama.
MR. BROOKS: Okay. Just so my outlne doesn't get all screwed up, I'm going to mark this as Exhibit 42. MR. HAYES: 42?

18 19 20 21 22
123

permission from the copyright holders.

Do you see that language?
A.

Yes. Yes.
And you spent some time and effort

23 24 25

Q. So you created some artworks that are depicted in this book Exhibit 42, correct?
A.

~4

25
1

Q.

86
1

88
Prince
doing it?
A. 2
3

2 3

Prince MR. BROOKS: Out of order.

the exhibit I guess. (Plaintiff's Exhibit 42, Canal Zone book, was marked for identification, as of
So this wil be

Yes.
And you spent som money I assume,

4
5 6 7
8

4
5
6

Q. right?
A.

this date.)
MR. BROOKS: These pages are Bates stamped -- Mr. Hayes, could you help him find the pag Bates stamped 213? It's in

Yes.

7
8

II
12 13 14 15 16

10

the very back. MR. HAYES: You can find it faster than me, but sure. There we go.
BY MR. BROOKS: Q. Mr. Prince, this is the book I was referring to before. A. Mm-hmm. Q. And it was published in connection with an exhibition at the Gagosian Gallery in
November-December 2008, is

17
18 19

20 21 22
23 24

that correct?

A.

Yes.

25

It says -- in the third paragraph it says publication copyright 2008, Gagosian Gallery, Ding Dong the Witch is Dead, copyght 2008, James Frey, and that's -- is

Q.

I guess

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
124

Q. And you don't mind if somebody just copies some of these images and sells them? A. No, I don't. If they can make a contbution -Q. You answered. A. -- I'm all for it. MR.- BROOKS: Let's mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 8 an interview of Mr. Prince. And those pages have been Bates stamped in our initial disclosure

C59 to 64.
This is going to get very congested there. Maybe you might just want to put that -- because I'm not going to come back to that book for a while, maybe just -MR. HAYES: Sure. MR. BROOKS: Plaintiffs Exhibit 8. (Plaintiff's Exhibit 8, interview, was marked for identification, as of this
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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 12 of 18

Richard Prince
117
1

October 6, 200~
119
1

2
3

Prince MR. HAYES: Object to the form.

Some market value? I never get involved in the market value. I have no interest in the market. Q. When'Barbara Gladstone sold some of your copies ofthat oginal or some of the originals from the edition, you received money,

2
3

A.

Pnce They already have.

You can scan it -I saw it on someone's screen --

r~

Q.

Q.
A.

4
5 6

A.

4 5
6 7
8

MS. BART: Objection, form.

(Multiple speakers talking at once.)

7
8 9

(Interruption by reporter.)
(Discussion off the record.)

ght?
A.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

From the oginal which, this or Spiritual America Four?

Q.
A.

Q.
A.

Four? Yes. Yes.

10 11 12 13
14

(Record read.)
MR. HAYES: Can i make a suggestion? Withdraw both questions, restate the first question. BY MR. BROOKS: Q. You wouldn't mind if somebody sold Spitual Ameca Four, somebody else? A. No. Q. Without your permission? A. They don't need my permission. Q. And you're saying it has been done? A. I don't know whether they've been

Q.

Okay. So it has some value?

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Somebody bought it and you got some of the money, right? A. If that's what you mean by value, yes. I received money from the sale of Spiritual Ameca Four, yes. Q. Any recollection of about how much you received for the ones that Barbara Gladstone

sold?
A.

Q.

No, I really don't know. Do you know if Spitual Ameca

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

able to sell it. I haven't been able to sell

mine. Whether they've sold theirs, I don't know. Q. Well, you sold some of yours, right? A: I sold some of mine, yes.

2 Four is copyrighted?

1 Pnnce

iis

2 Q. And how do you know somebody else is

3 trying to sell Spitual America Four?

1 Prince

120

.,

3 A. No, I don't know.

4 Q. Do you share the proceeds when it
5 was sold with Mr. D'Orazio?

4 A. I've seen it. That's the thing

5 about technology, it's what's new, it's what one

6 A. No. No, I don't. 7 Q. You keep the proceeds?

8 A. When there's a sale of this image,

9 yes, it's between myself and the dealer who

7 Q. And that's fine with you? 8 A. It's fine with me, yeah. I have no
9 control over it.

6 has to adjust to. I've seen it on the web.

1 mean it's their piece, not

10 sells it. 11 He was -- I gave him a print. 12 I also gave Brooke Shields a pririt.
13 Q. She must have been appreciative? 14 A. I'm a,you know, agreeable guy.

10 mine.

11 Q, It's their piece?

12 . A. They're putting their name on it.

13 Q. Who is thy?

15 Q. So getting back to in Exhibit 6

16 where you said, However, it would not bother me 17 in the slightest -- excuse me - for someone to
18 appropate my work.

16 Q. Okay. So your view is if you create

15 the person is.

14 A. 1 don't recall. i Qon't know who

20 Q. Would that extend to Spitual

21 AmecaFour?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If you create a work of art anyone

21 else who wants to is free to copy it and sell

18 art? 19 A. Yes, I do.

17 a work of art -- do you consider this a work of

22 A. Yeah. I mean I don't --I don'ttry

23 to control those kinds of things.

22 . it? 23 A. That's the optional or the operative

24 word you just said. Fre.

24 Q. But i mean just you wouldn't mind if

25 somebody did exactly what you did --

25 Q. Right.

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Richard Prince

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Filed 05/14/10 Page 13 of 18 October 6, 2009

123
Prince
Q. I know. It was badly worded.

2 A. And art is about freedom. It's not 2

4 then I couldn't transform these images. 4
5 Q. So but as far as you're concerned, 5

1 Prince 1

3 about being restricted. If I was restricted 3

8 that's fine with you? 8 10 Q. That's part of your artistic 10 11 philosophy? 11 12 A. i believe that, yes. 12
9 A. Yes, that's fine with me. 9
person copying 13
13 Q. Does it matter if the

6 somebody else can just copy Spiritual America 6 7 Four, make no changes to it, and sell it, and 7

You said before, you think people are free to take the work of others, copy it, and sell it, right?

MR. HAYES: Objection.

A. I believe artists -Q. Artists? A. -- should be as free as possible,

yes, in their studios.

Q. And does it matter if those artists

are known for the practice of appropriating or

17 A. There have been people who are known 17

16 you're concerned? 16

14 your work is known as an appropriation artist or 14 15 does it not matter, can anyone do it, as far as 15

not?
MR. HAYES: Objection, form.

A. It could be an art student. i would

encourage it.

19 done because of what I did. 19

20 Q. Right. But let me ask you this. )0
21 Do you feel that because you are known for 12 1

18 as appropriation artists who have done what I've 18

Q. Okay. I understand.
MR. BROOKS: Let's mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 a two-page article in something called the Copyright Litigation Blog, Bates stamps C55 and 56. (Plaintiff's Exhibit 10, Copyright Litigation Blog, was marked for identification, as of this date.)
Q. Mr. Prince, the person who wrote

22 appropriating the work of others your reputation 122

25 MS. BART: Objection to form. 25

122
1

24 practice? 24
2
3 4

23 itself entites you to engage in that artistic 23

Prince MR. HAYES: Objection.

2 this blog, again, states that the occasion is

3 your one-man show at the Guggenheim, do you see
4 that, entited Spiritual America?

1 Prince

124

A Reputation is a tricky word.

for borrowing, appropating things from other
Q. Well, you have a reputation

5
6 7 8 9

5 A. Yes. You're referring to this man

people, right?

6 Ray Dowd?

MS. BART: Objection, form. MR. HAYES: Objection also.

7 Q. Yes, he's an attorney I believe.

8 You don't know him I take it?

A. My intentions were never to make

myself a reputation. It was always -- my intentions were always to make great art.

9 A. No. Is he an art critic or -- you

10 say he's an attomey?

10 11 12
13 14 15 16

11 Q. Yes. i think he does copyright law.

12 I don't really know.
13 A. And

Q. Okay. But are you aware that you

are known as somebody -- prominently known as somebody who appropriates work of others? MR. HAYES: Objection. MS. BART: Same.

this is a blog?

14 Q. It looks like -- it's the Copyright

15 Litigation Blog. And he also has written a

16 textbook on that.

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. i am told that, yes. I don't

necessaly acknowledge it.

17 MR. HAYES: That's what the title of 18 the document is -19 Q. Anyway, I'm not going to ask you

Q. And whether you are or not, you

don't feel that your reputation for that practice has anything to do with your ght to do it, your freedom to do it, ght?

20 about any legal questions.

21 A. No, i just want to make sure I know

22 what I'm looking at.

MR. HAYES: Objection. MS. BART: Objection to form.

23 Q. I think he's an attorney and he's

24 wtten -- it tells you in the lower right-hand 25 corner the name of the book he wrote.
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A. i don't understand the question.

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Richard Prince
2 A. Okay.
5 page --

Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

125

Filed 05/14/10 Page 14 of 18

October 6 1 200~
127

1 Pnce

1 Prince

2 And then it refers to you.

/'~

3 Q. On the second page of this -- and

3 His -- that means you. His

4 appropation may foreshadow the copyright
5 battles of the future and a weakening of the

4 take your time, if you want to read the first

6 A. No, I was just going over this

7 eight-track photograph litte -- I wonder where

6 visual artist's copyght.

, 7 With reference to the first sentence
8 that i read, do you agree with that?

12 very early. 13 Q. Well, now, for the record, we better

14 have you explain what you're referring to about 15 the Eight-Track. I wasn't going to ask you, but 16 since you mentioned it -17 A. Oh. No, no --

11 A. Yeah, he got that from me. That's

10 Q. He didn't get that from you?

8 he got that. That's kind of cool. 9 Anyway -- I'm sorry.

10 MS. BART: I'm going to object to

11 form, especially using" this blog as 12 evidence.

9 MR. HAYES: Objection.

13 MR. BROOKS: Okay. 14 MR. HAYES: It also calls for a

16 objections.

15 legal conclusion, and I join in her

17 MR. BROOKS: Well, the first

18 Q. -- you should explain what you're 19 talking about.

20 A. The Eight-Track photograph, I think

19 conclusions. 20 I asked him if he agrees that

23 in technology.

18 sentence has nothing to do with any legal

21 I was -- again, I was talking about -- I think I 22 was talking about hip-hop, and sampling was

21 appropriating is becoming -- has become a

22 widespread phenomenon, thanks to advances

24 Pirating was the term that was being ~5 used by rappers in the late 70s. This is very
126

3 coming in at the time.

24 A. I don't believe I'm -- have the

25 knowledge to answer that question properly.

2 early, when that practice of sampling -- and I 2

1 Prince 1

128
Pnce
.' ..~..~

4 terms. That's all. 4

9 A. I think it was just a description. 9 10 Q. But you're analogizing your 10
13 to talk about what was possible to do with the 13 the apparatus. It's kind of esotec 14 15 mumbo jumbo to tell you the truth. 15
14 mechanism,

3 was always trying to hook my art up with musical 3

Q. Fine, okay.
A. 1 don't know whether it's become

widespread.

5 So the Eight-Track photograph was 5 6 eight different ways in which you could make a 6
8 Q. So it's an analogy, is that what -- 8

7 photograph. 7

Q. How about the second sentence, do

you agree that your artistic practices are weakening visual artists' copyright? MR. HAYES: Objection. That calls for a legal conclusion.
A. Again, I would have no idea.

12 A. I just --I probably was just trying 12

11 practices in the visual arts with what -- 11

Q. Now, when you had the retrospective

at the Guggenheim -- and we all know what the Guggenheim looks like, it spirals up from the bottom to the top -- was the entire museum dedicated to exhibiting your works, or was it

20 Q. There's a statement which says -- 20

19 A. Sorr. 19

18 statement -- 18

17 On the second page there's a 17

16 Q. Got it. 16

just a part of the museum?

When you had your -A. The majoty of the museum.

Q. Starting at the bottom or the middle

or where?

22 digital photography and sophisticated 22

23 consum'er-Ievel photo-retouching softare is 23

21 i'll read it -- as we move into a world where 21

A. Starting in what they call the rotunda. Q. When you walk in?
A. Yes.

25 has become a widespread phenomenon. 25

24 available, appropriating and manipulating images 24

ESQUalB;g

Q. But it didn't go all the way up to

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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

Richard Prince
1

Filed 05/14/10 Page 15 of 18 October 6, 2009

151
Prince found a black-and-white book on Rastafarians
when I was on vacation in St. Barth's. I started drawing directly in the book like i had

2 3

A. November 8th, yes. 2

Q. And was this interview in -- do you 3

Pnce 1
149

~"
l
"

4
5
6

7 8 9

sense. Q. Because?7 8
A. I believe -- this doesn't make any 6

know if the occasion for this interview was that 4 the show was about to open, if you remember? 5

done. before in a book of De Kooning's work. For

two or three years I continued to be inspired by three Rastafarians --I'm sorry, I continued to be inspired by these Rastafaans. I drew faces on their faces using the shades of the book, the different skin colors, the wild hair styles, all dreadlocked, their poses and their looks. I was listening to Rasta music at the time, one of my son's tapes. Was that a Bob Marley tape?

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
124 125

Gallery. 11 i did this 12

Oh, wait a minute.

A. It says here -- this interview I 9

believe was published at the Patrick Saguin 10

interview for the Patck Seguin Gallery that 13

opened in November 29th with Le Figaro. 14

from Le Figaro. 17
A. No, with Patrick Seguin. 19
you what it says in English -- interviewed by 21

A. With -- I believe with this person 16

Q. Of 2008? 15

A. No, it wasn't. It was a group

called Radiodread. One word. Q. Now, the black-and-white book on Rastafarians that you found, was that this Yes Rasta book by Patrick Caou?
A. Yes.

Q. Valerie Duponchelle? 18

Q. It just says -- I'm just tellng 20

Valerie Duponchelle. That's not your 22

recollection? 23
A. I don't remember who I was 24
150

interviewed by. But I believe this interview 25

Q. And you said you started drawing in the book. You actually -- actually in the book, you didn't copy, you just write in the book, you were drawing things? A. Yes.

17 Your sees wil be up at a time 17

18 when perhaps Barack Obama wil be president. 18

16 the second question. 16

15 proximity. So I would like to have you look at 15

14 Q. -- probably because ot the temporal 14

12 Canal Zone - 12 13 A. Yes. 13

11 reason, they asked you some questions about the 11

10 Q. All ght. Well, for whatever 10

9 Zone. 9
8 A. It had nothing to do with the Canal 8

5 Gallery. 5 6 Q. A show that has nothing to do with 6

7 the Canal Zone? 7

4 A. Of mine at the Patrick Seguin 4

3 Q. A show of yours? 3

2 was for the occasion of a show. 2

1 Prince 1

152
Prince
Q. Which you had done with some
De Kooning works before?

MS. BART: Objection, form.

ahead. A. I had done the same thing to a

Q. Go

De Kooning. book.
Q. Right. Now, you said - I'm reading

what you said - for two or three years I continued to be inspired by these Rastafarians. So, given --

A. That's the translation. This-Q. Okay,

A. Can I just say that this is -Q. Yes.

A. I've read this interview.

Q. Yes. In French?

23 Q. So then the answer apparently was, 23

22 (Record read.) 22

21 (Interruption.) 21

19 It could become iconic if it coincides with a 19

A. Because it just came out in a book.

Q. Yes.

20 pivotal moment in American history. And -- 20

A. It's one of the worst translations

would like to

I've ever read. Anyway, I'm just -- I just get that on the record.

24 That's possible. /tis strange for a white man 24

Q. Okay. But this translation was done

for my law firm, sO you certainly this translation. You.

25 like myself to start painting black people. I 25

haven't read may have read another bad

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Richard Prince
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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

153
Prince
translation, but you haven't read this one.
A.
1

Filed 05/14/10 Page 16 of 18 October 6, 2009

155
Pnce
wasn't continuous, but did you start writing in

2
3

2
3

Oh. Well--

4 5
6 7 8

12 13 14

10

15 16 17 18

19 20 21
122

23 24 25

This was done for us recently. Okay. All right. Q. But -- fine. If it's incorrect, I would like to know. So is it correct that you were drawing in the Yes Rasta book? A. Yes. Q. And is it correct that given that this is 2008, this interview, that this drawing in the bok went on for two or three years? A. The drawing in the book -- no, i believe it started when I bought the book. Q. In 2008? A. When I was on vacation. So 2005. I bought the book and I started -- I was on vacation, and I started to make drawings in the book. Q. Okay. A. And -Q. You were on vacation? MR. HAYES: Hold on. He hasn't

Q.

A.

4 5 6

the book right then or did you -A. I believe i did probably the next

day.
Q.
And then at some point you put it

7
8

aside?
A.

I started writing first. I used it

10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19

as a notebook. I started making notes because of my Canal Zone idea. Q. For the pitch? A. Because i was -- yeah, I was wting about the pitch because of -- yeah, there was some blank pages. Q. In the book? A. In the book. Q. You wrote things like CIA, Jack

Ruby?
A.

Yes.

finished his answer.

20 21 22 23 24 25

Lee Harvey Oswald, CIA? Yes. Q. Kennedy? A. Right. Q. Something about the Kennedy assassination apparently?

Q.

A.

154
1 2 3 4

156
1

Prince
Because you had asked me if I had been doing it for two or three years. I did it for two weeks out of every year for two years. So i was drawing in the book for maybe
A.

Prince
A.

2 3 4

I was thinking out loud, yes.

Okay, good.

o.
A.

5
6 7 8 9
LO

5
6 7 8

Then what was it -- and I realize the translation may not be --

approxirrately three to four weeks. Q. Total?

A.

That's okay.

I'm just trying to answer the

Just so I'LL understand.

question.
Q.
A.

In
~2 13 14

Q.
A.

Okay. You found this book in St. Barth's? I bought it at a bookstore.

In St. Barth's?

i5
6
7 8 9 ~O

Q.
A.

Q.
A.

Yes. Where? In a hotel gift shop or -It was a regular bookstore.

A bookstore?

Q.
A.

Yes.
On St. Barth's?

~i
22 23 24 25

Q.
Q.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
2J.

And feel free to tell us it's wrong. But it says for two or three years I continued to be inspired by these Rastafarians. What, if anything, inspired you about them?

o.

MR. HAYES: Objection to the form.

You can answer. A. I believed at the time that I had maybe made a connection to the De Kooning paintings that I was painting. And I believe I had found subject matter that I knew nothing about, which is a position I like to put myself in, in order to discover new things and be able transform something that once existed over here

to over here.
Okay. So therefore, when I say perhaps I was inspired, I decided with the De Kooning . women paintings my contribution would be a man. And I felt -- I mean and this is, again, it's a
A.

A. ' In St. Barth's, yes.

o.

And you think around 2005? A. Yes. To the best of my recollection, yes, 2005. Q. And then did you -- i understand it

22 23 24 25

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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 17 of 18

October 6 i 200~

Richard Prince
1 2
3

long time ago, but I believe I was thinking that 2

Prince 1
157

159
Pnnce
Well, you've been going there 12 years, right?
,

the man in the De Kooning paintings should be a 3

4 5
6

7
8 9

~.~~ 8
like that? 12
asking me a question about the Canal Zone. 16

Rastafarian. 4 Q. Let me just back up. 5

You said something about this 6

l~-~

A. Yes, I would agree with that.

Q. Now, the show that you were being

brought back to you growing up in the Canal Zone 7

asked about that was going to be at the Gagosian Gallery several days after the interview, was that your first solo exhibition at the Gagosian

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Q. No, earlier today. 10

Do you remember saying something 11
MS. BART: Can I hear the question 13

MR. HAYES: In his prior answer? 9

Gallery?
A. At that space or with Gagosian?

Q. Okay. Let's start with that space,

which is on West 24th Street.

18 19 20 21 22 23
24

question. 19
A. Yeah. I mean I remember the 18
MR. HAYES: Could I have this 20

Q. Right. 17
MR. BROOKS: Yes. 24
MR. HAYES: In this book? 23
158

back, please? 14 A. Yes, I remember you, yeah, you 15

(Record read.) 22

A. 24th Street?
O. Yes.

A. My first solo, yes.

O. Okay. Now, you broadened the

question, which is fine. How about the other

Gagosian galleries of which there are a number, right?

A. I've had shows at other galleries.

O. But as of November 8th, 2008, had

question read back, the last question? 21

you had any solo shows at the Gagosian Gallery prior to November 8th, 2008, at any Gagosian

25

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, so can I 25

Gallery? MR. HAYES: Any location he's asking

1 2 3 4

Prince 1 have -2 BY MR. BROOKS: 3

Canal Zone? 6
A. Yes. I would -- yes, I'd say that. 7
Q. Did seeing

160
Prince you about.
A. Any location?

this book Yes Rasta 4

5
6 7 8

somehow make a connection in your mind with the 5

A. Prior to? Yes.

that Chelsea gallery? A. Yes.

Q. Any Gagosian Gallery location?

Q. Okay. But this was the first one at

Q. Did you believe that the photos in the Yes Rasta book, did you believe they were

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

just seen the jungles. 11

Zone -- you said you went to Panama? 9 . A. I had gone to Panama. And I had 10

Q. Now, have you been back to the Canal 8

20 21 22 23
24 25

A. Yes. 17 Zone? 20 A No. 23

Q. Are there Rastafarians in the Canal 18
Zone now known as Panama, that part of the Canal 19

book -- yes. 15 Q. In approximation to 2005? 16

A. No, there aren't. 21 . Q. Are there any in St. Barth's? 22
Q. Is the population of St. Bart's 24

A. Probably -- probably, yes. 13

In approximate to when I found the 14

Q. Fairly recently? 12

distinctive? A. Well, I didn't really -MS. BART: Objection, form--

A. -- look at them as -MS. BART: Hold on one second, please.

Objection, form, calls for a legal

conclusion. The witness is here as a fact

witness, not an expert MR. HAYES: I join in the objection.
Q. Did you believe they were

distinctive? MS. BART: Same objections.

A. i didn't think 1 would describe my reaction. Also, I didn't really look at them as

e ESQUalBg

primaly white, French white people? 25

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Richard Prince
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Case 1:08-cv-11327-DAB Document 48-8

Filed 05/14/10 Page 18 of 18 October 6, 2009

163
Pnce
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 1 :05 p.m. Off the record. End of tape 2.
(Recess taken: 1:05 p.m.) (Proceedings resumed: 1 :53 p.m.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 1 :53. On the record. Beginning of tape 3. BY MR. BROOKS:
Q. Mr. Prince, we were looking before

2
3

4 5
6 7

A. Images in a book. 4 they're photographs? 6

Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that 5

Pnce 1 photographs. 2 Q. What did you look at them as? 3

161
A. i don't know if he made original -- 7

8
9

I mean I'm not in a position to say whether they 8

were original photographs to begin with. I 9

10 11 12 13
14

don't know. I just saw them in -- I saw images, 10

reproductions of images in a book. 11

I mean that's my -- that was my 12

reaction. i believe my initial reaction was one 13

of which i associated with the Canal Zone. 14

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. i liked the pictures. 18

Q. You liked them a lot? 19
A. I

A. 16 Q. In Yes. the book? 17

liked them, yes. 20
MR. HAYES: Objection. 24
162
MR. BROOKS: No, it doesn't. 25

Q. Did you like the pictures? 15

for a legal conclusion. 23

Q. You thought they were original? 21 MS. BART: Objection, form, calls 22

we broke for lunch at Exhibit 13. And we had talked about the first question and answer that you were asked and that you gave. Then there's a second question which says, What wil the format for this new sees be, a large format like the nurse paintings, question mark. And then your answer, Larger, there are several figures white or black female nudes beside clothed Rastafaans -MR. HAYES: It's not the second question, actually it's the third, just for clarity. Go ahead.

A. Okay, I got it.

MR. BROOKS: You're right, third

8 MR. HAYES: Objection. 8

7 before of Rastafaans? 7

6 Q. Had you seen pictures like that 6

1 Prince 1 5 suppose. 5
3 A. i didn't have that reaction, no. 3
2 MS. BART: Please check 17 U.S.C. 2
4 i mean my reaction was they were documentary I 4

question.

164
Pnce
BY MR. BROOKS:

O. Larger with several figures white or

black female nudes beside clothed Rastafarians, a forest contrast like in the Luncheon on the Grass by Manet from 1862-63 which stil struck me in the Picasso exhibition at the Muse

24 Q. We'll get to that later because I 24

23 that was in the Bob Marley book. 23

22 A. Not of Bob Marley. It was an image 22

19 O. It's in the book? 19 21 Q. Of Bob Marley? 21

17 that? 17 18 A. i did do it. 18

16 Q. And what made you decide not to do 16

11 Q. Right. 11 14 Zone exhibition? 14 15 A. i did. 15

12 And did you consider incorporating a 12
13 picture from the Bob Marley book into this Canal 13

10 that I was also looking at at the same time. 10

9 A. Yes, i had had a book on Bob Marley 9

d'Orsay. i combined the Rastafaans from the

book with a series of hands playing the guitar that I cut out and pasted. The nurses -- played on the uniform, the Rastafarians's uniform is merely a pair of shorts, almost nothing. Sometimes they are nude like the women painted from magazines or from photos of models in my studio. In pictorial terms there is litle difference between white and black. It is this kind of formal question that interests me. I've already had a small Rastafaan exhibition in

20 A. I believe there's an image -- 20

St. Barth's. I called it Canal Zone as a

reference to the Panama Canal of my childhood. I had put together a scene with gangs portrayed by the Rastafaans to music by Ziggy Marley, Bob Marley's oldest son, and the Wailers, his original group. With respect to this Manet painting,

25 wouldn't begin to know where it is. 25

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