0:59:22 That time you were charged but the trial didnt come off, what were you

charged with
Lynne?
A. It was not dropped, the original charge was attempted murder. This was a case where a
girl allegedly received a hamburger with LSD in it. She allegedly received the hamburger
in Hawaii and at that time I was in the states. But this was brought as a conspiracy and
due to the Tate LaBianca trial that was going on, it was going to pass through with the
publicity. Consequently I accepted a desposition. (To her attorney: Isnt that what you
call them?) Nolo contendo, I wouldnt plead guilty. I received three months in the
county jail.
Q How did you feel while you were incarcerated?
A. Well because of the place, Los Angeles County jail I would say is a very bad place to be
incarcerated. Because of the guards being...
Q. Being very impersonal?
A. Thats right. But I got along fine. I got along with the guards and the inmates alike.
Q. Has there ever been a time in your life when you got really paranoid? When you got
really suspicious of the motives of others?
A. No.
Q. No time when you have had lets say a belief that somebody or an organization was out to
kill you or poison you?
A. No.
Q. Inaudible...at this time. I mean you know that the government is out to get you but uh
A. Laughing
Q. Beyond that you arent thinking any personal vendettas against you?
A. Personal? No. Nothing personal.
Q. Are you in communication with your family at all at this time? Are they sending you
letters or anything?
A. No.
Q. Would you characterize your present relationship with them as distant or cool or...most
parents would rush to a childs side at a time of difficulty. So something is amiss in the..
A. We have a very pat (sic) understanding. My father has definite opinions. He said you can
come here on these conditions. He said...
Tape stops Another male voice talking about checking the tape1:03:19
Interview resumes at 1:04:08.6
Q. The charges against you Lynne at this time is that you acted all by your lonesome.
A. Thats right.
Q. So theres not going to be some kind of allegations that youre not still a tool of the
Family or something like that?
A. No.
Q. I feel like I have to ask something about your relationship with Manson and the Family,
not in any detail but again, I am aware that there have been all kinds of allegations in the
press that it was a really crazy hedonistic trip.
A. Right. This is peoples desires and fantasies. This is another thing that Im under and
hes under.
Q Can you give me just a brief overview of your relationship with Manson and the Family,
so that I can say I covered it in case anyone asks? (nervous laugh)
A. Who would ask?
Q. Well, I dont know. But Im sure and you know much of all this has been seen at times by
people as though this was an extension of certain beliefs on your part that got started at
the time when you were with the Family and so forth. Um, I dont know who would ask.
It just seems like it was a very big chunk in your life between 18 and the present time that
I dont really know anything about from your own lips. You know how your life went in
the intervening eight years...
A. That again, would take a great deal of explanation because of what youve read., Id have
to counter...
Q Yeah well Im not assuming that anything that I have read is accurate, rest assured. Can
you kind of give me a synopsis of what happened between 18 and now, is that possible?
A. Well as much as I feel that legally Im obligated, I dont think Im legally obligated to say
anything. I can say that uh like most young people during the late sixties, we did a lot of
traveling around. We did a lot of meeting people. We were not hedonistic. We were
solely...the thought of being out only for pleasure. We were concerned about what was
going on, what people were thinking, how people were treated and we found dozens of
young people out in the streets. Some of them were taking care of themselves fine.
Others of them were being abused by any number of people who found out they could
just swoop into San Francisco and pick people up. It was my feeling to offer these people
a place to stay. For example there was me who went out and found a young runaway girl
one day who didnt have a place to stay and I said come on home with us. Subsequent to
this young people would come to our house and say can I stay here? Wed say, you can
stay here but you know youre going to have to be quiet, youre gonna have to respect the
place and if you just want attention from your parents and if your going to take drugs then
you cant be here. You can live in the back, live in the woods if you want and well see
that youre fed and see that youve got food and well see that nobody hurts you. We ran
into a number of young people who told us anyway, that their parents were abusing them.
One girl, in fact who later testified against us called us up and told us her dad was beating
her and she was crying and asking would we come and pick her up? Of course well
come and pick her up. The police were aware that there were young people in the
background and that we were..uh we found ourselves a ranch.
Q. A bit of a foster home operation.
A. Well, we werent telling these people anything, these young people. We just offered them
our land more or less. What they wanted to do was up to them as long as they didnt
abuse it. I believe its healthy for anyone to live in the woods. I wouldnt send a kid to the
streets. So we had this land available, so we let them live on it.
Q. Hmm mm
A. Um, we didnt not have sex orgies and drug orgies or cult meetings or uh hanging Christ
in effigy or pretending Charlie was Christ or anything of that nature. That all came out of
peoples imagination. We were actually very healthy. We found out that by giving to each
other and supporting each other and realizing there is a joy in giving and there is a
purpose in being able to serve each other, we found great satisfaction.
Q. Do you believe in God?
A. Certainly.
Q. Okay, do you believe in Christ?
A. I believe that God is a creative force, life force.
Q. You dont believe in him as a personality?
A. No.
1:10:26
Q. Do you believe in Christ?
A. I believe a man hung on the cross and gave his life..
Q Do you think he was the Son of God?
A. I believe that as God being life itself, the Universe reflection...
Q. Okay so you dont accept Christian doctrine as such that a personal savior that came to let
everybody sit on his back and died for them.
A. I believe that he did indeed do that for humanity. I believe that was his purpose, why hes
been there.
Q Okay but as a very good man not as a deity per say?
A. Were all potentially deity without a lot of the confusion that we um weigh ourselves
down with and carrying the big load.
Q. Have you seen Charlie as Deity?
A. I just said...Doctor.
Q. Right. You said you didnt see him...you didnt think he was Christ..but
A. I just said we are ALL...we all have life force running through us. We...Life force is the
God. The tree is The God anything that is alive as opposed to this uh (knocks on
something) inanimate...
Q. Okay, what would philosophically be called Pantheism, God is in everything. Everything
thtats alive anyway.
A. An expression of God, yes. I have never heard that term pantheism.
Q. I hope I got the term right. I think its just a general philosophic concept that God is in
everything. That God is diffused throughout everything.
A. Well, if I were going to worship something, I would worship whats here. I think we
have a beautiful earth.
Q. Its hard to see sometimes.
A. Youre right.
Q. There are many many scars.
A. Are you doing anything about it?
Q. Yes. Have you ever had any severe head injury?
A. No.
Q. Ever had fainting spells, epilepsy, convulsions.
A. No. Ill tell you something that you might do, is work on getting the drug commercials
off the television. You know how powerful suggestion is. We dont really need to hear
about headaches you know, twenty times a day.
Q. Your involvement in the current events, that offense is in no way related to your
relationship with Manson, the Family.
A. Well, youre asking me again Why did I do what I allegedly did.
Q. Well no I dont want to get into that because hes going to object (laughs).
A. Well hes not objecting hes just helping you know
Q Right, I know. I dont want to try and get into your motives for doing it what Im trying
to do is just...its a hard task to do what hes saying. Ordinarily I would conduct this
examination under 4244 by asking you a lot of things about the events. Particularly if you
are going to represent yourself, because a significant part of being able to represent
yourself is whether you remember what happened, whether you remember your motives,
etc. etc. But because of the nature of this case and so forth some special rules have come
into play which I dont fully understand because Im not an attorney. Normally under
4244 you could bare your soul to me about the whole blasted offense and every intimate
detail about it and tell me you were guilty as sin, and that could not be used to incriminate
you in any way, unless you and your counsel raised some issue or gave me on the stand
the authority to talk about it. Do you follow me? Usually your protected under 4244
against any kind of incrimination.
A. Tell me this. Dont you feel that, Im not saying that you can analyze whether I can
handle the technical aspect but dont you feel that Im an alert person?
Q Yes I feel that you are an intelligent person, I think you are an alert person, I think you are
bright person. I think you are probably overestimating your ability to thrink as quick as
an attorney on your feet. Now if you indeed have co-counsel then you know I can see
where that might bring it off.
A. Right
Q But if co-counsel wasnt available I would think you do well to heed the words of Lincoln
and even if it was mediocre counsel, even if you didnt have really top notch counsel
youd be better represented by counsel rather than represent yourself. Just because of the
realities of the courtroom situation.
A. But doctor dont you think that youre here to determine rather Im mentally stable and
fit.
Q. Yeah but what Id like to do but I cant do is ask you something about the offense to see
how you react emotionally when your getting into talking about the offense. Do you
follow me? When you go into a court of law, its all going to be laid out in graphic detail
there is going to be photographs, there is going to be all kinds of witnesses , all kinds of
allegations into what youre motives were and werent and so on. And those things are
going to present some kind of psychological stress to some degree and so now ordinary
approach in this kind of a situaltion would be to ask you in great detail about the offense.
Well we are relying on the 4244 examination to protect you against self incrimination it
wouldnt be in...
A. Why dont you just call me a name and see how I react.
Q. Laughs. Let me ask you something, do you recall the circumstances of the offense
without talking about any of them can you recall them clearly?
A. Yes.
Q. You can recall that period of time in which the offense occurred without any difficulty.
Okay. It makes it a difficult 4424 because usually I go into it by being a kind of stressing
situation.
Attorney: I understand.
Q. - or trying to observe the defendant under that stressful situation and thats all - inaudible -
When you have discussed your case with Mr. Hanalao and Mr. Walker, has that been a
significant emotional stress for you to talk about the events and what was happening
then?
A. No.
Q. Okay, you can discuss it then and keep your cool?
A. Absolutely.
Q. I assume that means you are capable of going into the nitty gritty without coming
unstrung.
A. Yes.
Q. How do you respond when people call you names?
A. I know what I am.
Q. Okay well people will, in a sense, if I understand you right you can anticipate they are
going to be calling you names in a court of law.
A. Ive been called some names..
Q. Make you out to be some kind of pariah.
A. A per what?
Q A pariah.
A laughs whats a pariah?
Q Well somebody that kind of goes around living off of society and uh oh why did you ask
me to define it?
A Laughs
Q Its someone who lives off of society and they are very shady, or illicit or in bad fashion.
A. Is Pariah somebodys name in history.
Q No, no I think pariah is -
Attorney - It comes from Greek mythology I think.
A (Lynne) Oh ya. Thats what it sounds like.
Q Did I define it right?
Attorney - Im not sure.
Q. Okay (laughs)
A How bout Frommegate?
Q Okay, but youre aware of the fact that people are going to be trying to make you out to be
a real bad guy.
A Really?
Q The prosecution will say that this is a real sinister character and she ought to be locked up
for the rest of her life. Theyre going to throw away the key so that shell never have the
opportunity to harm anyone again.
A Do you think that the prosecution should do this if he doesnt really feel it. I dont think
the government has any personality.
Q Well we could talk at great length and I dont presume to know the legal system but to the
best of my understanding, we have a system that doesnt really deal in justice. Thats a
public myth. The legal system has a due process, there is an assumption made that is
sometimes true and sometimes false that if due process is followed, justice will result.
Now you and I are each aware that some people who are obviously guilty have been
gotten off by very clever attorneys. From our point of view that is certainly not justice.
Justice means that the guilty ought to be punished and the not guilty ought to be free. We
also are both aware that many NOT guilty people have been found guilty and sent to
prison because they had lousy counsel.
A. Right. There. Theres my case.
Q. Right. So theres a presumption made that in the adversary position and this goes back to
your question, is it right for the prosecution to make you out to be this real bad guy? Well
I cant judge rather its right or not, but the assumption is the prosecution is going to make
you out to be the Devil and the defense is going to make you out to be an angel and
somehow a somewhat befuddled group of 12 men and women are going to try and decide
from all of that what they thinks going on and whether in their opinion you ought to be
punished or how much they want you to be punished if they make a recommendation to
the judge and so forth. Im not going to try and judge that. There are some obvious
defects in the system from my point of view. On the other hand anytime human beings
are going to be involved, as you said its rather frightening that they are going to be
leaving your fate in the hands of another human being, so the attempt is to be your faith in
the hands of a process and unfortunately that process still has to be mediated by human
beings.
A. Well fortunately, in some respects its a little bit old.
Q In that respect I was going to ask you. I assume the answer is negative. You dont
believe that someday there is a final judgement when all things and all people finally will
be judged by a God, by a finer authority?
A. I wouldnt say that I dont believe that.
Q Okay
A I believe primarily that people judge themselves and that uh each man and woman must
live with themselves and why - inaudible
Q Okay maybe theres just a question mark still in your mind as to what finally happens if
anything when all this is done.
A When all whats done?
Q Life here. Whether there is a life here after and if so, under what conditions and so forth.
A. I dont believe well be given unlimited earth someday. I mean I think we have a good
one, you know?
Q. Yeah okay. Do you get angry very often or very easily? Do you lose your cool?
A. No. No.
Q. And you dont cry easily or frequently?
A. Let me tell you, if I feel that its necessary for me to be business like, lets say. Then I can
conduct myself that way.
Q. Okay, are you convinced you would need to be business like in a court of law?
A Yes. Another words I have a definite feeling but I can sublimate.
Q What made you do the X in your forehead?
A Uh, we definitely marked ourselves.
Q What was the point of that? What was the purpose of marking yourself?
A Well it has different levels. On one level it is a cross thats falling, a falling cross. On
another level it is an X and the X is we are marked out of the system as it stands, we dont
go along with it. By go alone with it I mean it needs to be changed. This was the step
that we took and many people criticized us.
Q Yes (to a female voice) we will be through very shortly. Then Lynne will be on her way.
To Lynne: I wouldnt be a clever psychologist if I didnt ask you some of those questions
like what does it mean when people say dont count your chickens until theyre
hatched.?
A Dont think youve won a case when you havent started it.
Q Dont think youve won the case when you what?
A Havent started it.
Q Okay.
A Dont believe it until you see it.
Q Boy I hope Ive covered everything. Lynne, I certainly think you have the capacity to
waive the right to counsel. I certainly find her to be competent under 4244. I cant find
any overt signs of mental illness or defects. I have my obvious concerns about her belief
in her ability to field the kinds of activities that go on in a court of law. Ive been in
courts of law many times in medical legal work and Ive never tried to be an attorney.
More often when Im in a court of law that Im thankful there are attorneys then should I
ever be charged with something. Like I say if it was mediocre counsel Id be there,
because even mediocre counsel knows the rules of the ballpark inside the courtroom that I
dont know, the ways of fouling out and so forth and even if youre in the process of
making a very telling point and you cross the boundary somebody can suddenly object
and unless you have all kinds of cool and reserve, it will just completely derail your
thinking and an attorney is set to deal with that. As a matter of fact he hopefully knows
those boundaries so well that even if he purposefully steps over it to test the judge or test
the other counsel and see if he can get away with something, if the other guy wakes up in
time and objects to the foul, he doesnt lose his cool and steps right back in. If were in a
court of law trying to defend myself, Im sure particularly if I had the conviction that you
have, that youve got to prove something and my emotions would get involved and I
wouldnt be able to follow those foul lines. Id step over them Im sure.
A But if you had the convictions that I have you would train yourself and you would make it
a point not to step over the -
Q Over time I would train myself but I dont see how I could sit down and I dont see how
Michael Angelo could have trained himself to be a great sculptor ad artist with his first
work. You know he botched all kinds of canvas
A cross talk debating between Lynne and doctor
Q But you have one chance. You have one block of marble and you want it to turn out to be
a masterpiece and youve never sculpted before.
A Take it easy.
Q You have a right to do that because Im sure youre not crazy but Im not sure youre
making a wise decision. But Im not asked to pass judgement on whether or not you are
making a wise decision or not.
A No.
Q Im basically asked to give an opinion if its a crazy decision or not. I dont think its a
crazy decision, as best I understand. Then again the examination is somewhat truncated
by the fact that I cant really go into these decisions with you and ask you in greater detail
what kind of defense youve planned and the charges. Well I think of done my thing. I
cant think of anything else.