SUPREME COURT

OF THE UNITED STATES

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

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MERRICK B. GARLAND, )

ATTORNEY GENERAL, ET AL., )

Petitioners, )

v. ) No. 22-976

MICHAEL CARGILL, )

Respondent. )
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Pages: 1 through 117

Place: Washington, D.C.

Date: February 28, 2024

HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION

Official Reporters
1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 206
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(202) 628-4888
www.hrccourtreporters.com
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1 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

3 MERRICK B. GARLAND, )

4 ATTORNEY GENERAL, ET AL., )

5 Petitioners, )

6 v. ) No. 22-976

7 MICHAEL CARGILL, )

8 Respondent. )

9 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

10

11 Washington, D.C.

12 Wednesday, February 28, 2024

13

14 The above-entitled matter came on for

15 oral argument before the Supreme Court of the

16 United States at 10:03 a.m.

17

18 APPEARANCES:

19 BRIAN H. FLETCHER, Principal Deputy Solicitor General,

20 Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.; on behalf

21 of the Petitioners.

22 JONATHAN F. MITCHELL, ESQUIRE, Austin, Texas; on

23 behalf of the Respondent.

24

25

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 ORAL ARGUMENT OF: PAGE:

3 BRIAN H. FLETCHER, ESQ.

4 On behalf of the Petitioners 3

5 ORAL ARGUMENT OF:

6 JONATHAN F. MITCHELL, ESQ.

7 On behalf of the Respondent 47

8 REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF:

9 BRIAN H. FLETCHER, ESQ.

10 On behalf of the Petitioners 112

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (10:03 a.m.)

3 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: We will hear

4 argument first this morning in Case 22-976,

5 Garland versus Cargill.

6 Mr. Fletcher.

7 ORAL ARGUMENT OF BRIAN H. FLETCHER

8 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS

9 MR. FLETCHER: Thank you, Mr. Chief

10 Justice, and may it please the Court.

11 To fire a rifle fitted with a bump

12 stock, the shooter simply places his trigger

13 finger on the built-in finger ledge and uses his

14 other hand to press the front of the rifle

15 forward. As long as the shooter maintains that

16 steady forward pressure, the rifle will fire

17 continuously until it runs out of bullets, and

18 it will empty a 100-round magazine like the ones

19 used in the Las Vegas shooting in about 10

20 seconds. Those weapons do exactly what Congress

21 meant to prohibit when it enacted the

22 prohibition on machineguns, and those weapons

23 are machineguns because they satisfy both

24 disputed parts of the statutory definition.

25 First, a rifle with a bump stock fires

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1 more than one shot by a single function of the

2 trigger. In common usage today as in 1934, a

3 function of the trigger happens when some act by

4 the shooter, usually a pull, starts a firing

5 sequence. With a semiautomatic rifle, it fires

6 one shot for each function of the trigger

7 because the shooter has to manually pull and

8 release the trigger for every shot. But a bump

9 stock eliminates those manual movements and

10 allows the shooter to fire many shots with one

11 act, a forward push.

12 Now, Respondent says that a separate

13 function of the trigger happens every time the

14 trigger on a traditional rifle moves backwards

15 and releases the hammer, even if it moves

16 without any further manipulation by the shooter.

17 But that is inconsistent with

18 contemporaneous usage, does not account for guns

19 with other kinds of triggers, and would make it

20 trivially easy to evade the ban on machineguns

21 just by automating the back-and-forth movement

22 of the trigger after the shooter's initial pull.

23 Second, a rifle with a bump stock

24 fires more than one shot automatically, that is,

25 through a self-regulating mechanism. Once the

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1 shooter presses forward to fire the first shot,

2 the bump stock uses the gun's recoil energy to

3 create a continuous back-and-forth cycle that

4 fires hundreds of shots per minute.

5 Now Respondent says that that cycle is

6 not automatic because the shooter has to keep up

7 the forward pressure to keep the cycle going.

8 But many traditional machineguns likewise

9 require the shooter to maintain backward

10 pressure on the trigger to maintain continuous

11 fire. Either way, a single motion both

12 initiates and maintains a multi-shot sequence,

13 and either way, the weapon is a machinegun.

14 I welcome the Court's questions.

15 JUSTICE THOMAS: Mr. Fletcher, how

16 does a machinegun -- what would I have to do to

17 fire a machinegun?

18 MR. FLETCHER: It depends on the

19 machinegun. Some, it's a push of a -- a push of

20 a button. Some, it's a pull of the trigger.

21 The statutory definition is, does it shoot more

22 than one shot automatically by a single function

23 of the trigger?

24 JUSTICE THOMAS: But I don't have to

25 do anything else? I don't have to put pressure

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1 on it or anything else?

2 MR. FLETCHER: It depends on the gun

3 again. So if you imagine -- I think what your

4 question is getting at is, if you take a

5 traditional M-16 rifle --

6 JUSTICE THOMAS: Yeah.

7 MR. FLETCHER: -- which we often think

8 of when we think of a machinegun, you're right,

9 to fire more than one shot, you pull the trigger

10 and you have to hold it back, and as long as you

11 maintain that backward pressure on the trigger,

12 it keeps shooting.

13 JUSTICE THOMAS: With a bump stock,

14 what would I do different?

15 MR. FLETCHER: You would do different

16 the -- both the initial motion and the motion

17 that continues. It's the same thing in the

18 sense that one motion automates back-and-forth

19 movement and results in multiple shots.

20 JUSTICE THOMAS: So what -- what --

21 MR. FLETCHER: But it's a different

22 motion.

23 JUSTICE THOMAS: -- is happening with

24 the -- a trigger-initiated firing of a

25 machinegun? What do I have to do other than to

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1 press the trigger?

2 MR. FLETCHER: With a traditional

3 machinegun, again, take an M-16 -- and, again,

4 we think they're all machineguns -- but I

5 understand the question to be take an M-16, you

6 pull the trigger back and you hold it and it

7 keeps shooting.

8 JUSTICE THOMAS: Okay. With --

9 MR. FLETCHER: With a bump stock, you

10 push forward, and that both initiates and

11 continues the firing.

12 JUSTICE THOMAS: And what is happening

13 with the trigger when you have the recoil?

14 MR. FLETCHER: That's exactly right.

15 So I think this gets to Respondent's primary

16 argument on function of a trigger, which is that

17 the difference with a bump stock is that it

18 fires multiple shots automatically by automating

19 the movement of the trigger.

20 So my friend says the trigger moves

21 back and forth every time a shot is fired. Our

22 view is that those subsequent movements of the

23 trigger aren't functions of the trigger because

24 they're not responding to separate acts,

25 separate pulls, or anything else by the shooter.

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1 They're just the result of the --

2 JUSTICE THOMAS: So what is happening

3 with the trigger when someone doesn't need a

4 bump stock to bump-fire a weapon?

5 MR. FLETCHER: So this is the man --

6 the unassisted manual bump firing --

7 JUSTICE THOMAS: Yeah.

8 MR. FLETCHER: -- that's described,

9 where an expert can take a regular semiautomatic

10 rifle and hold it loosely enough that they can

11 do something like bump firing. And I think, in

12 our view there too, there's just one function of

13 the trigger because the first push starts the

14 sequence and then the sequence continues. The

15 ATF explained and we agree that that's not

16 automatic because there's no self-regulating

17 mechanism. The user has to control the recoil.

18 JUSTICE THOMAS: So what's the

19 difference? The same thing is happening with

20 the trigger.

21 MR. FLETCHER: The same thing is

22 happening with the trigger, and I think that's

23 why we would say, with manual bump firing, there

24 is just a single function of the trigger.

25 There's one action that initiates the firing

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1 sequence. We think it's not automatic because

2 there's no self-regulating mechanism. The user

3 is having to do all of the work that the bump

4 stock automates for you on a rifle fitted with a

5 bump stock.

6 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: I'm have --

7 JUSTICE BARRETT: What about -- oh.

8 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: -- having a

9 little trouble with the non-trigger hand. Are

10 you just holding the gun, or are you moving,

11 pushing it forward and then back and forward and

12 then back?

13 MR. FLETCHER: So I think the best

14 place to look for this, Mr. Chief Justice, is

15 the district court's factual findings, which are

16 at pages 10 -- 102a to 104a of the Petition

17 Appendix. And what he explained is that from

18 the shooter's perspective, it's just one

19 continuous forward push. The expert at trial

20 said mentally you're doing nothing but pushing

21 forward.

22 Now, if you look and watch the slow --

23 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Continuous --

24 continuously pushing forward or --

25 MR. FLETCHER: You --

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1 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: In other

2 words, are you holding it with pressure or are

3 you moving your hand?

4 MR. FLETCHER: So what you are doing

5 -- I want to distinguish between those two

6 things actually --

7 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Yeah.

8 MR. FLETCHER: -- because what you are

9 doing is just pushing forward. Now, if you look

10 at the videos that we cite in Footnote 1 of our

11 reply brief, some of them are in slow motion,

12 and they show that when the shooter is doing

13 this, the hand is moving back and forth very

14 fast, 600 times a second.

15 That's not happening because the

16 shooter is able to move their hand back and

17 forth 600 -- or, I'm sorry, 600 times a minute.

18 That's not happening because the shooter can

19 move their hand back and forth that fast.

20 That's happening because every time a shot is

21 fired, the recoil drives the -- the rifle

22 backwards, overcomes that steady forward

23 pressure momentarily. That's what lets the

24 trigger reset and then another shot to be fired

25 again.

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1 So, from the shooter's perspective, we

2 view it as one act, and we think that's what the

3 district court found.

4 JUSTICE KAGAN: So would it be right

5 to say that the pressure is -- you know, on a

6 typical machinegun where you're pulling and

7 you're feeling, you know, continual backward

8 pressure, and on this, you're feeling continual

9 forward pressure of the opposite hand.

10 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly.

11 JUSTICE KAGAN: Is that right?

12 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly right. I think

13 that's exactly what the district court found.

14 JUSTICE BARRETT: Mr. Fletcher, so I

15 did watch all of these videos and try to figure

16 out exactly what this looks like. And I just

17 want to ask you about this bump-firing thing.

18 MR. FLETCHER: Mm-hmm.

19 JUSTICE BARRETT: So what if I design

20 something and I call it a bump band, because I

21 gather you can do this with --

22 MR. FLETCHER: Yeah.

23 JUSTICE BARRETT: -- bands and you can

24 do it with your belt loop.

25 So what if I design and market

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1 something I call a bump band to help me turn my

2 semiautomatic, you know --

3 MR. FLETCHER: Yeah.

4 JUSTICE BARRETT: -- in the same way?

5 Why wouldn't that then be a machinegun under the

6 statute?

7 MR. FLETCHER: So we think that's

8 still not functioning automatically because

9 that's not a self-regulating mechanism. My

10 understanding is that what those devices do is

11 they help the shooter keep their trigger finger

12 still, but the shooter still has to manage the

13 movement of the rifle back and forth, hold it so

14 that it moves backwards just the right distance

15 in just the right direction, then hold it again

16 so it moves forward in just the right distance

17 and just the right direction.

18 And what makes a bump stock different

19 is that it's a device that is built for just

20 this purpose. It has the finger ledge that

21 holds your finger in place, but then it also has

22 a sliding function built in so that when a shot

23 is fired, the recoil automatically pushes the

24 rifle back, lets it disengage from the trigger

25 so the shooter doesn't have to manually release

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1 it, and then allows it to slide forward again,

2 again just the right distance in just the right

3 direction.

4 JUSTICE BARRETT: Maybe Mr. Mitchell

5 can help me understand from his point of view

6 what that means, because it seem like it helps

7 you do it better and in a more stable way but

8 that it functions the same way.

9 But -- but the other question I

10 have -- look, intuitively, I am entirely

11 sympathetic to your argument. I mean, it -- and

12 it seems like, yes, that this is functioning

13 like a machinegun would. But, you know, looking

14 at that definition, I think the question is, why

15 didn't Congress pass that litigation -- I mean

16 that legislation to -- to make this cover it

17 more clearly?

18 I think your argument depends on

19 volition, right? So let me give you a

20 hypothetical, and then tell me if you think this

21 satisfies the definition of machinegun.

22 Let's imagine someone builds a fully

23 automatic machinegun, and I won't try to come up

24 with the technology for exactly how this is

25 going to happen, but they install a tripwire on

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1 their property and they just leave the gun there

2 unattended, walk away. Somebody trips the wire

3 and then it begins shooting lots of rounds.

4 MR. FLETCHER: Yeah.

5 JUSTICE BARRETT: Does that satisfy

6 your definition of a machinegun?

7 MR. FLETCHER: I think it does, yes.

8 JUSTICE BARRETT: Why?

9 MR. FLETCHER: Because a single act

10 and, you know, I think we've used different

11 words like volition. I think what we're -- the

12 idea that we're trying to get at is, does some

13 separate act, is that required, some manual act

14 required for each shot, or is a single

15 continuous act resulting in the firing of

16 multiple shots.

17 That's an unusual way to activate a

18 machinegun, obviously, but I think, even if it's

19 a tripwire, that's still one act by a person

20 that initiates a multi-shot fire.

21 JUSTICE BARRETT: But it's an

22 unintentional act in the same way you might say

23 if your finger -- because, for the bump stock to

24 work, you still have to have your finger right

25 there, right?

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1 MR. FLETCHER: You do, yeah.

2 JUSTICE BARRETT: And -- and it -- and

3 it -- according to the Fifth Circuit, what

4 you're focusing on is the definition, you know,

5 it looked at it from the perspective of the gun

6 and the machinery of the gun, but you still do

7 need your finger there to kind of pull back the

8 trigger the same way that you would if it was

9 volitional.

10 MR. FLETCHER: So not quite, actually,

11 Justice Barrett. I think this is important.

12 When -- in the typical way that you fire these

13 bump stocks -- and this the Fifth Circuit

14 acknowledged at 21a of the Petition Appendix --

15 you don't initiate firing by pulling backward

16 with your trigger finger. The trigger finger

17 stays completely stationary.

18 JUSTICE BARRETT: You push.

19 MR. FLETCHER: You initiate by

20 pushing. And what the expert said and the

21 district court found is you could replace your

22 trigger finger with a little plastic post

23 attached to the bump stock and it would work in

24 exactly the same way.

25 So it's -- it's true that you have to

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1 keep your finger there, and if you moved your

2 finger away, the bump firing sequence would

3 stop, but that's a pretty trivial additional

4 piece of input from the shooter. Really, what's

5 starting and continuing the sequence is the push

6 forward.

7 JUSTICE BARRETT: Thank you.

8 JUSTICE JACKSON: Can I ask you, just

9 kind of maybe stepping back a moment, why do

10 these various distinctions with respect to

11 operations matter?

12 I mean, I -- I read this statute to be

13 a classification statute that Congress is

14 directing everyone or us to identify certain

15 kinds of weapons, and those certain kinds of

16 weapons are being treated in a particular way.

17 They're being prohibited.

18 And so I guess what I'm trying to

19 understand is, if -- if it's true that, you

20 know, the distinction that is being focused on

21 here is the one between the movement of the

22 trigger going back and forth or the trigger

23 staying the same, I'm trying to understand why

24 that matters for the purpose of this

25 classification.

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1 MR. FLETCHER: So I think we don't

2 think it does because we don't think function of

3 the trigger means movement of the trigger. We

4 think it means act of the shooter.

5 That's how it was used at the time by

6 educated speakers of English, including the

7 president of the NRA when he proposed the

8 language that became this statute to Congress,

9 and ever since, people have equated function of

10 the trigger with pull of the trigger. That

11 makes perfect sense if, like us, you read

12 function of the trigger to mean some act by the

13 shooter. I don't think that works on my

14 friend's account.

15 JUSTICE JACKSON: But I guess I'm

16 wondering -- I thought your answer was going to

17 be we don't think it matters because of

18 something you said in the intro, which was

19 that's -- these are the kind of weapons that

20 Congress were -- was intending to prohibit

21 because of the damage they cause or something

22 like that. Like I read the word "function" to

23 be doing significant work in this statute.

24 And when, you know, "function" is

25 defined, it's really not about the operation of

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1 the thing. It's about what it can achieve, what

2 it's being used for. So I see Congress as

3 putting function in this. The function of this

4 trigger is to cause this kind of damage, 800

5 rounds a second or whatever.

6 And -- and -- and so the

7 classification of weapons that we're trying to

8 identify with this statute are those that

9 function in that same way.

10 MR. FLETCHER: So, Justice Jackson, I

11 agree with most of that, but I want to be

12 careful because our -- our view is not that

13 because Congress banned machineguns because

14 they're dangerous, anything that's dangerous or

15 that shoots fast is a machinegun.

16 Our -- we draw the evident purpose of

17 Congress that we think my friend's

18 interpretation would frustrate from the text

19 that Congress enacted.

20 JUSTICE JACKSON: Right. And so how

21 about anything in which the trigger functions in

22 the same way, and by "function," I don't know

23 that that necessarily means it has to move in

24 the same way. It has to operate in the same

25 way. It can function in the same way insofar as

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1 it automatically allows for 800 rounds to be

2 released.

3 MR. FLETCHER: So exactly. We think

4 the function of the trigger is what let's the

5 shooter start the firing sequence. And we think

6 all of the parts of the statutory definition are

7 aimed at we're worried about guns that let you

8 shoot many shots without repeated manual

9 actions, right. So it's -- it's single function

10 of the trigger. Does the shooter have to do one

11 thing or many things?

12 JUSTICE JACKSON: Thank you.

13 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Mr. Fletcher, on --

14 on that score, can we just step back a minute?

15 I can certainly understand why these items

16 should be made illegal, but we're dealing with a

17 statute that was enacted in the 1930s, and

18 through many administrations, the government

19 took the position that these bump stocks are not

20 machineguns.

21 And then you -- you adopted an

22 interpretive rule, not even a legislative rule,

23 saying otherwise that would render between a

24 quarter of a million and a half million people

25 federal felons and not even through an APA

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1 process they could challenge, subject to 10

2 years in federal prison, and the only way they

3 can challenge it is if they're prosecuted, and

4 they may well wind up dispossessed of guns, all

5 guns in the future, as well as a lot of other

6 civil rights, including the right to vote.

7 And I -- I guess I just want your

8 reaction to -- to that, and I believe there are

9 a number of members of Congress, including

10 Senator Feinstein, who said that this

11 administrative action forestalled legislation

12 that would have dealt with this topic directly,

13 rather than trying to use a nearly 100-year-old

14 statute in a way that many administrations

15 hadn't anticipated.

16 Thoughts?

17 MR. FLETCHER: There's a lot packed in

18 there, so as you might expect, I have a lot of

19 thoughts. I think the main one is this Court

20 often concludes that the government has

21 interpreted a statute the wrong way and doesn't

22 hesitate to correct the government's mistakes.

23 I think the government should do the same thing.

24 After the Las Vegas shooting, the

25 deadliest shooting in our nation's history, I

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1 think it would have been irresponsible for the

2 ATF not to take another closer look at this

3 prior interpretation, which was reflected in a

4 handful of classification letters, and to look

5 at the problem more carefully.

6 And having done that, I think it would

7 have been irresponsible if the ATF concluded, as

8 it did, that these devices are prohibited under

9 the best reading of the statute for the ATF not

10 to fix its errors.

11 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Then why not do a

12 legislative rule properly and in which -- I -- I

13 know you did notice and comment, but it was an

14 interpretive rule, and an interpretive rule you

15 can more or less just issue and you don't even

16 have to put it in the Federal Register. I mean,

17 maybe you do in some circumstances, but not all.

18 MR. FLETCHER: Well, Justice --

19 JUSTICE GORSUCH: And -- and -- and

20 you're -- you're -- you're creating a class of,

21 again, between a quarter of a million and a half

22 million people who have, in reliance on past

23 administrations, Republican and Democrat, who

24 said that this does not qualify in a very old

25 statute, taken actions. And an interpretive

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1 rule you can't even challenge in an APA posture.

2 MR. FLETCHER: Well, we are in an APA

3 posture. They are challenging an interpretive

4 rule, and -- and --

5 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Well, I understand

6 that, but in your reply brief, you say, oh,

7 don't touch that because that's not before us.

8 That's not part of the QP. And in an

9 interpretive rule, you don't get an APA

10 challenge. You get -- you get a criminal

11 prosecution against you is what you get.

12 MR. FLETCHER: So I -- I guess I

13 disagree with that on a number of levels.

14 First, I would think it would be better for

15 those who are concerned about administrative

16 power that we acknowledge this is an

17 interpretive rule.

18 The ATF doesn't have the power to make

19 something a crime that wasn't a crime before.

20 It's not a crime to violate the rule. It has

21 been and always will be a crime to violate the

22 statute. The ATF is saying we got that wrong

23 before and we're fixing it now.

24 And you're right, it would be horribly

25 unfair to prosecute people who possessed these

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1 devices in reliance on the agency's past

2 assurance, but that is taken care of through

3 doctrines like entrapment by estoppel, which

4 ensure that no one has been and no one will be

5 prosecuted for possessing these guns during --

6 or these devices during a time when ATF said it

7 was legal.

8 But that's not a reason to shackle the

9 ATF and certainly not a reason to shackle this

10 Court to adopt something other than the best

11 reading of the words Congress wrote. And it's

12 true, Congress wrote those words 90 years ago,

13 but we think it used capacious language like

14 function of a trigger instead of pull of a

15 trigger and then, in 1968, added parts that can

16 be used to convert something into a machinegun

17 precisely because it understood that Americans

18 are -- have a lot of ingenuity and a lot of

19 creativity.

20 There are a lot of ways to build

21 something that is a machinegun, and I don't

22 think you should hesitate from applying the

23 broad language that Congress wrote, consistent

24 with the meaning that it has always had.

25 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: What's the --

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1 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Could I -- thank

2 you.

3 Are you representing on behalf of the

4 government that you're not going to prosecute

5 anyone prior to 2017? Anyone who wasn't a felon

6 or -- or disqualified for some other reason?

7 MR. FLETCHER: I am. ATF made very

8 clear in enacting this rule that anyone who

9 turned in their bump stock or destroyed it

10 before March of 2018 would not face prosecution.

11 As a practical matter also, the

12 statute of limitations for this offense is five

13 years, so in a month, the statute of limitations

14 would be gone. We have not prosecuted those

15 people. We won't do it. And if we try to do

16 it, I think they would have a good defense based

17 on entrapment by estoppel.

18 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Second, the

19 back-and-forth here leads me to believe that at

20 best there might be some ambiguity. Now the

21 question is what's the best reading. And we

22 have a whole slew of doctrines that talk about

23 that with respect to that we shouldn't render

24 statutes ineffective by an interpretation.

25 That's not the best reading, correct?

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1 MR. FLETCHER: Correct, exactly.

2 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: And I think we've

3 said that as far back as 1824.

4 MR. FLETCHER: In The Emily, exactly.

5 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: In The Emily case.

6 And so I think your position is, if anyone's in

7 doubt about this interpretation, that not

8 including something that basically you hold in

9 your hand and you let the recoil move it back

10 and forth, if that's not automatic, then it

11 doesn't make any sense that this is not a

12 machinegun, correct?

13 MR. FLETCHER: That's part of our

14 argument, absolutely. And it's not just this

15 device. I mean, we cite a number of the

16 examples, and -- and there are many more, of

17 things that people have done to try to get

18 around the ban on machineguns, and accepting

19 some of the interpretations that my friend is

20 offering today would legalize not just bump

21 stocks but those devices as well.

22 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: One final

23 question. Justice Barrett said something about

24 she hoped Mr. Mitchell would explain something

25 about why there was a difference in the

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1 functioning between the belt and the gun. Could

2 you go through that again so that -- I think I

3 understand it, but --

4 MR. FLETCHER: Of course. So, as I

5 acknowledge and as the ATF explained in the

6 rule, it is possible to do bump firing, meaning

7 that the rifle moves back and forth and bumps

8 against your stationary finger. An expert can

9 do that without any assistive device at all.

10 And you can also do it if you have a lot of

11 expertise by hooking your finger into a belt

12 loop or using a rubber band or something else

13 like that to hold your finger in place.

14 We don't think those things function

15 automatically because the definition of

16 "automatically," I think everybody agrees, is by

17 means of a self-regulating mechanism. That's

18 what a bump stock is. It's a device that is

19 purpose-built to harness the recoil energy of

20 the gun to automate the process of releasing the

21 trigger, to move the rifle back just the right

22 distance in just the right direction so that the

23 trigger resets, and then to ensure that the

24 rifle moves forward again, again, just the right

25 distance, just the right direction.

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1 We think the cycle that's created by

2 that means is by means of a self-regulating

3 process. It's possible to do the same thing

4 with a lot of manual work and manual control and

5 expertise, but that's not unusual to say that

6 something can be done automatically by a device

7 if you eliminate a lot of manual movements that

8 someone like an expert could take to do the same

9 thing.

10 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Can I ask you

11 about mens rea, to pick up on Justice Gorsuch's

12 questions? For prosecuting someone now, what

13 mens rea showing would the government have to

14 make to convict someone?

15 MR. FLETCHER: So I think the relevant

16 case is Staples, and I think what the Court held

17 in Staples is that you have to be aware of the

18 facts that render your weapon a machinegun.

19 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: So, even if you

20 are not aware of the legal prohibition, you can

21 be convicted?

22 MR. FLETCHER: That's right, but

23 that's true of all machineguns, I mean, all

24 different sorts of devices. I think the

25 distinct problem here is the one that's created

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1 by the fact that the agency was previously

2 saying that these were not machineguns. We

3 acknowledge that those people who, in reliance

4 on that --

5 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: And that -- that's

6 going to ensnare a lot of people who are not

7 aware of the legal prohibition.

8 MR. FLETCHER: So I guess I don't

9 think so, Justice Kavanaugh. I think the ATF --

10 one of the reasons, to Justice Gorsuch's point,

11 this is an interpretive rule that went through

12 notice and comment -- the reason was in part

13 because the agency knew that it had previously

14 been saying something different. It wanted to

15 maximize public notice. This is something

16 that's gotten a lot of coverage.

17 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Why not -- why not

18 require the government to also prove that the

19 person knew that what they were doing was

20 wrongful, was illegal?

21 MR. FLETCHER: Well, I think that's

22 not the understanding that this Court adopted in

23 Staples. If the Court wanted to revisit that in

24 another case, a criminal case, you could. We

25 haven't briefed that question here.

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1 But I think, to the extent that you're

2 concerned about that, it's -- it's not a concern

3 unique to bump stocks. We mention all sorts of

4 other devices, the forced reset trigger that we

5 mentioned. The problem of people coming up with

6 devices that they want -- that they think get

7 close to the line but don't go over but that, in

8 fact, go over the line and turn them into

9 machineguns isn't new and could come up

10 anywhere.

11 The problem here, we acknowledge, is

12 ATF used to say something different about these,

13 but we think that's taken care of by the

14 rulemaking and the doctrine of entrapment by

15 itself.

16 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Because people will

17 sit down and read the Federal Register?

18 MR. FLETCHER: No. I think because I

19 think people who have these devices --

20 JUSTICE GORSUCH: That's what they do

21 in their evening for fun. Gun owners across the

22 country crack it open next to the fire and the

23 dog.

24 (Laughter.)

25 MR. FLETCHER: I take that point. I

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1 think, Justice Gorsuch, the fact that this

2 rulemaking happened has not gone unnoticed in

3 the community of people who are interested in

4 firearms. Many people have availed themselves

5 of the right to challenge our interpretation.

6 We're defending it in court. The Supreme Court

7 is hearing it. I agree not everyone is going to

8 find out about those things, but we've done

9 everything the government could possibly do to

10 make that people aware.

11 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Let me ask you about

12 the function of the trigger. You liken it to a

13 stroke of a key or -- or -- or -- or a throw of

14 the dice or a swing of the bat. Those are all

15 things people do.

16 MR. FLETCHER: Mm-hmm.

17 JUSTICE GORSUCH: A function of the

18 trigger, do people function triggers? I

19 thought, you know, in -- in -- in, you know,

20 maybe somewhere in fifth -- fifth grade grammar,

21 I learned that was an intransitive verb.

22 MR. FLETCHER: Yeah.

23 JUSTICE GORSUCH: And people don't

24 function things. They may pull things, they may

25 throw things, but they don't function things.

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1 And, again, there's a very old statute, and it

2 was designed for an obvious problem in the 1930s

3 and Al Capone, and people were -- with a single

4 function of the trigger, that is, the thing

5 itself, was moved once, and that's what they

6 wrote.

7 And maybe they should have written

8 something better. One might hope they might

9 write something better in the future. But

10 that's the language we're stuck with. Help me.

11 MR. FLETCHER: That is the language

12 we're stuck with, but I don't think it's as

13 narrow as you suggest for a couple of reasons.

14 I agree it's awkward to talk about a person

15 functioning a trigger, but there's an easy

16 explanation. The reason Congress used that

17 word, not "pull," is because Congress knew that

18 there were lots of different ways to activate a

19 trigger and wanted to cover all of them.

20 And I think the reason you know that

21 it's referring to what the shooter does --

22 there's really two. One is that's the way it's

23 been understood ever since. The interpretation

24 I'm giving you is the same one Karl Frederick,

25 the president of the NRA, and many other courts,

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1 executive officials, Congressmen gave at the

2 same time. They used "pull" and "function"

3 interchangeably.

4 And, second, I think, even if you've

5 said we're going to focus just on the trigger,

6 the function of an object isn't just some action

7 by the object. It's the mode of action by which

8 it fulfills its purpose. And the purpose of a

9 trigger is to accept some input from the user.

10 And the way you know that is how

11 everyone reacts when someone attaches it to some

12 contraption like the auto-glove, which is a

13 glove that you put on and you push a button and

14 it has a little piston that pulls the trigger

15 really fast, or you attach a fishing reel, like

16 the one the Fifth Circuit confronted in Camp,

17 where you flip a switch and it spins and turns

18 the trigger over and over again.

19 On my friend's reading, the function

20 of the trigger with those devices is exactly the

21 same because the curved metal lever is moving

22 back and it's releasing the hammer every single

23 time. But everyone, my friend included,

24 recognizes that that's not the function of the

25 trigger in those devices.

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1 The function of the trigger is the

2 user's flip of the switch or push of the button

3 because that's the thing that allows an act by

4 the user to initiate a firing sequence.

5 JUSTICE BARRETT: Mr. Fletcher, I -- I

6 take it that the ATF defined the curved lever

7 that you pull back as the trigger. Could it

8 have defined the bump stock itself as the

9 trigger?

10 MR. FLETCHER: So I -- I'm not sure

11 that it could have defined the bump stock itself

12 as the trigger. I think -- we get into this a

13 little bit in the reply in response -- or a

14 version -- a different argument maybe than the

15 one that you're thinking of but I think related,

16 in response to a move that's made in the red

17 brief, where we hypothesize that if you had a

18 machinegun that required you to pull the trigger

19 and also hold down a button, it would still fire

20 automatically, and we all understand that, even

21 though you have to do two things rather than

22 one.

23 And what my friend said in the red

24 brief is, well, in that case, maybe the button

25 is part of the trigger too because you have to

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1 push the button to keep firing. And what we say

2 in the reply and what I think is true is that if

3 you were going to approach the statute that way,

4 which isn't the way the ATF has, I think you'd

5 still land in the same place because then you'd

6 say it's both the curved metal lever and it's

7 the part on the front of the rifle that the user

8 pushes forward in order to initiate and maintain

9 the firing sequence.

10 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

11 counsel.

12 Justice Thomas, anything further?

13 Justice Alito?

14 JUSTICE ALITO: What is the situation

15 of people who have possessed bump stocks between

16 the time of the ATF's new rule and the present

17 day or between the time of the new rule and the

18 Fifth Circuit decision? Can they be prosecuted?

19 MR. FLETCHER: I think probably yes,

20 unless they had gotten some judicial relief from

21 the rule. The rule has not been enjoined. It

22 hasn't been vacated, writ large, so I think the

23 -- the government has made clear that this is

24 what we think the statute means.

25 I'll say in practice that --

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1 JUSTICE ALITO: Isn't that disturbing?

2 People in the Fifth Circuit who have been

3 possessing firearms since the beginning of 2023,

4 let's say, they -- you know, they are aware of

5 the Fifth Circuit's decision, that they can be

6 criminally prosecuted for doing something that

7 the court of appeals that governs their

8 territory has said is not illegal?

9 MR. FLETCHER: Well, let me give a

10 practical answer and then a doctrinal answer. I

11 think, practically, I'm not aware of a lot of

12 these prosecutions being brought because we

13 recognize that there is some legal uncertainty.

14 But I think, doctrinally, that could

15 happen all the time, Justice Alito. Circuits

16 disagree about what a criminal law means, and

17 someone might, in reliance on their circuit

18 precedent, do something that they think is

19 lawful under circuit precedent that other

20 circuits disagree with, that the government

21 disagrees with, and that this Court ultimately

22 holds is covered by the statute.

23 JUSTICE ALITO: When we speak of the

24 function of an inanimate object, don't we

25 normally look at what that inanimate abject --

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1 object does? So why isn't the function of a

2 trigger to release the hammer -- let's look at

3 the -- the -- the M-16, the AR-15, the function

4 of -- why isn't the function of the trigger to

5 release the hammer from the sear so that the

6 hammer can swing forward and strike? Isn't that

7 the most straightforward interpretation of this?

8 MR. FLETCHER: I don't think so, and I

9 think, even if you thought that was true, just

10 looking at the text alone, the three indications

11 that we've talked about, the contemporaneous

12 usage by the president of the NRA and others,

13 the application to other kinds of triggers,

14 which everybody agrees are covered but which

15 don't function by moving the hammer, and then

16 also just evasion. I mean, I talked about some

17 of them, but one of the devices that the Fifth

18 Circuit has held is permissible -- or, I'm

19 sorry, a district court in the Fifth Circuit has

20 held is permissible and the Fifth Circuit has

21 declined a stay is something called a forced

22 reset trigger, and with a forced reset trigger,

23 the ATF tested it, zip-tied the trigger back,

24 and the gun shot multiple bullets.

25 What the district court said is that

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1 under my friend's interpretation, its

2 function -- there are multiple functions of the

3 trigger because the trigger is wiggling back and

4 forth imperceptibly and releasing the hammer

5 separately each time, and so it's not a

6 machinegun.

7 And I think it's just not reasonable

8 to read the statute that opens it up to that

9 sort of evasion, and we're seeing concrete

10 evidence of that evasion in the Fifth Circuit.

11 JUSTICE ALITO: Thank you.

12 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice

13 Sotomayor?

14 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Just to be clear,

15 when you're citing what Congress people said or

16 what the NRA president said, or what we said in

17 some of our decisions because we've used "pull

18 of the trigger" in describing a machinegun's

19 function, correct?

20 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly.

21 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: You're not using

22 legislative history in the traditional sense.

23 You are pointing to common usage?

24 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly right, exactly

25 right. We're not speculating. We're not saying

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1 that the bump stocks are machineguns because the

2 president of the NRA wanted them to be. We're

3 using that as evidence --

4 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, that's what

5 the Senate intended. You're saying it's a term

6 of art.

7 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly. If he -- if

8 he had published this in an essay or in The New

9 York Times, we would be pointing to it as

10 evidence of contemporary meaning. We certainly

11 don't think it should be a blessed reading.

12 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, you're

13 pointing -- you're pointing to Supreme Court

14 decisions that did it.

15 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly, as this Court

16 does too. It looks at literature. It looks at

17 all sorts of sources to understand what speakers

18 of English understand the words to mean when

19 Congress used them. And we think this and many

20 other things are powerful indications that we're

21 right about that.

22 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Thank you.

23 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice Kagan?

24 JUSTICE KAGAN: Mr. Fletcher, you've

25 talked a lot about the mechanics of these

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1 various devices. Could you give a sense of the

2 different effects of these various devices?

3 So you take on two polls, a

4 semiautomatic weapon, let's say, and a

5 conventional machinegun on the -- on the other.

6 How many bullets and how much time? And then

7 one of these bump stock weapons, where does that

8 fall in the spectrum between those?

9 MR. FLETCHER: Sure. So the rate of a

10 semiautomatic weapon is not a fixed number

11 because it depends both on the weapon and very

12 much on the skill of the shooter. I think the

13 Giffords amicus brief says the theoretical

14 maximum for a very skilled competition shooter

15 with a specialized weapon is something like 180

16 bullets a minute. In practice, it's much, much

17 slower than that for the vast majority of people

18 who would use one of these things.

19 A fully automatic weapon --

20 JUSTICE KAGAN: How -- how much

21 slower?

22 MR. FLETCHER: I think, you know,

23 it -- it depends. I think more on the order of,

24 you know, 60, something like that. I don't -- I

25 don't want to represent that that's exact again

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1 because there's a lot of variation, but the --

2 the point is that's the theoretical max. In

3 practice, it's significantly slower than that.

4 A traditional machinegun like the M-16

5 or the M-14, things that are issued to members

6 of the American military, shoot in the range of

7 700 to 950 bullets a minute.

8 There are obviously bigger things like

9 the things mounted on helicopters that shoot

10 much, much faster than that, but I think, for

11 these purposes, that 700 to 900 is about the

12 right benchmark.

13 The Akins Accelerator, the original

14 bump stock, shot at 650 rounds a minute, and the

15 devices at issue here are represented to shoot

16 between 400 and 800 rounds a minute.

17 So right in that range with the M-16,

18 the M-14, and they do it in the way -- again,

19 I -- I think rates of fire are important, but we

20 acknowledge this is not a rate-of-fire statute.

21 It's a function statute.

22 But the function was, are you able to

23 fire multiple shots without multiple manual

24 movements? And I think the rate of fire is

25 powerful evidence that there are not multiple

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1 manual movements going on here.

2 JUSTICE KAGAN: Thank you.

3 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice

4 Gorsuch?

5 Justice Kavanaugh?

6 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: You've referred a

7 lot to the language in 1934 and around that

8 time, but, of course, bump stocks didn't exist

9 around that time.

10 What are we to make of that?

11 MR. FLETCHER: So I -- I think you

12 still apply the language and you have to do what

13 you have to do a lot, which is apply language

14 that Congress wrote and apply it to something

15 that didn't exist at the time. You know, none

16 of these workarounds, the fishing reel, the

17 auto-glove, the forced reset trigger, all of

18 them are new problems.

19 But -- but I think what you can draw

20 is that Congress wrote a statute, chose the word

21 "function" deliberately because it didn't want

22 to just focus on triggers that pull, and then,

23 in 1968, it added "parts that convert a machine"

24 -- a -- "a normal gun into a machinegun" because

25 it recognized that people try to do things to

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1 semiautomatic weapons in order to give them

2 these same characteristics of multiple rounds

3 with a single manual action.

4 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: And then what's

5 your explanation, maybe common-sense explanation

6 or some other explanation, for why, when this

7 does become an issue, the Bush Administration,

8 the Obama Administration, Senator Feinstein, all

9 say no?

10 MR. FLETCHER: Yeah.

11 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Bump stocks are --

12 are not covered because, if it were so, I don't

13 want to use the word "clear," but if so, if

14 your -- if your position were correct, oh, just

15 this is a new thing, obviously, covered by this

16 old statutory language, you would expect the

17 Bush Administration, and the Obama

18 Administration, and Senator Feinstein to say, of

19 course, it's covered by, and -- and they didn't,

20 and that's reason for pause. It doesn't -- it's

21 not dispositive, but it's reason for pause.

22 And I just -- what -- what's your

23 explanation for that, if you have one?

24 MR. FLETCHER: So I agree with you.

25 It's -- it's -- it's worth looking at. It's

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1 worth asking. I think that's why it's so

2 important to put it in context.

3 And if I could, so when the ATF first

4 looks at these, it's the Akins Accelerator in

5 2002. That's the bump stock with a spring in

6 the back where you don't even have to push

7 forward. And initially ATF tests it, the

8 prototype breaks, but the ATF writes a

9 classification letter, which is something

10 relatively informal, just goes to the

11 manufacturer, doesn't contain a lot of legal

12 reasoning, says this isn't a machinegun because

13 it doesn't have multiple functions of the

14 trigger.

15 Very quickly thereafter, ATF corrects

16 that error and in 2006 says the Akins

17 Accelerator is a machinegun because it does

18 function by -- it does shoot multiple shots by a

19 single function of the trigger.

20 So that part we've been consistent on.

21 The director of the ATF issued a ruling, 2006-2,

22 that was consistent on that, and the agency has

23 held that position ever since, and that's mostly

24 what we've talked about today.

25 It's true that in a series of

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1 additional -- other informal classification

2 letters issued between 2007 and 2017, the ATF

3 said that non-mechanical bump stocks, those like

4 the ones at issue here without a spring where

5 you have to push forward, weren't machineguns

6 because they didn't shoot automatically.

7 But I -- I think it's important to

8 recognize those are informal, they don't include

9 a lot of legal analysis, and I think maybe most

10 importantly, no one defends the ATF's

11 interpretation from those letters. What the ATF

12 said there is this doesn't have springs or

13 mechanical parts, so it doesn't make guns -- the

14 gun function automatically.

15 I think even my friend doesn't defend

16 that interpretation. Everybody recognizes that

17 there are things like Glock switches that we

18 discuss in our reply brief that you can add to a

19 machinegun -- a semiautomatic weapon that make

20 it a machinegun, and I think the fact that no

21 one is defending the ATF's prior interpretation

22 is a good indication that when Attorney General

23 Sessions and Attorney General Barr revisited

24 this and we've continued to defend it since,

25 they did a much more careful examination and got

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1 it right.

2 And then Senator Feinstein, you know,

3 I -- I take your point. I guess, with all

4 respect to Senator Feinstein, I would say that

5 the comments from a legislator who's trying to

6 get a piece of legislation passed and is trying

7 to demonstrate the need for that legislation by

8 disagreeing with the administration about the

9 scope of current law are not a particularly

10 probative source of the meaning of the words

11 that Congress enacted in 1934.

12 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Thank you.

13 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice

14 Barrett?

15 JUSTICE BARRETT: No.

16 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice

17 Jackson?

18 JUSTICE JACKSON: Can I just be clear

19 on this function point? Because they say, I

20 think, that a single function of the trigger as

21 it appears in this statute is directing

22 consideration of whether the trigger is moving

23 only once.

24 And I think you're saying that, no,

25 when it says the function of the trigger, it's

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1 not how the trigger operates, it's -- the

2 function of the trigger is what it achieves and

3 the function that I think you're saying is that

4 if by single operation, meaning single movement

5 of the person, you can achieve firing multiple

6 shots without multiple manual movements, that's

7 what you said, that covers the function of the

8 trigger. Is that what you're saying?

9 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly. And I think

10 the thing that makes this clearest is the boxes

11 hypothetical on page 30 of our brief where we

12 say imagine somebody builds a black box with a

13 button on the top and the shooter pushes the

14 button once and bullets come out of the front at

15 a very high rate. On our view, that's a

16 machinegun.

17 But, on my friend's view, if the

18 inventor sets it up so that after the shooter

19 pushes and releases the button the button keeps

20 moving up and down in the same way on its own, I

21 think he's stuck saying that that's not a

22 machinegun because the trigger is functioning

23 each time a shot is fired. We don't think

24 that's a plausible construction of the statute.

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: So we'll ask him

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1 about that. And -- and I guess yours is

2 consistent or it -- it accounts for

3 automatically more than one shot being in this

4 definition?

5 MR. FLETCHER: Exactly.

6 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay. Thank you.

7 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

8 counsel.

9 Mr. Mitchell.

10 ORAL ARGUMENT OF JONATHAN F. MITCHELL

11 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

12 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Chief Justice, and

13 may it please the Court:

14 The statutory definition of machinegun

15 extends only to weapons that fire more than one

16 shot automatically by a single function of the

17 trigger. Mr. Cargill's non-mechanical bump

18 stocks fall outside the statutory definition for

19 two separate and independent reasons.

20 First, a bump stock equipped rifle can

21 fire only one shot per function of the trigger

22 because the trigger must reset after every shot

23 and must function again before another shot can

24 be fired.

25 The trigger is the device that

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1 initiates the firing of the weapon, and the

2 function of the trigger is what that triggering

3 device must do to cause the weapon to fire.

4 The phrase "function of the trigger"

5 can refer only to the trigger's function. It

6 has nothing to do with the shooter or what the

7 shooter does to the trigger because the shooter

8 does not have a function.

9 The statute is concerned only with

10 what the trigger does and whether a single

11 function of that trigger produces more than one

12 shot.

13 Second, a bump stock equipped rifle

14 does not and cannot fire more than one shot

15 automatically by a single function of the

16 trigger because the shooter, in addition to

17 causing the trigger to function, must also

18 undertake additional manual actions to ensure a

19 successful round of bump firing.

20 Everything about the bump firing

21 process is manual. And there is no automating

22 device, such as a spring or a motor, in any of

23 Mr. Cargill's non-mechanical bump stocks.

24 The process depends entirely on human

25 effort and exertion as the shooter must

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1 continually and repeatedly thrust the force

2 stock of the rifle forward with his non-shooting

3 hand while simultaneously maintaining backward

4 pressure on the weapon with his shooting hand.

5 None of these acts are automated. And

6 the Solicitor General has yet to identify any

7 component of Mr. Cargill's devices that

8 automatically performs any task that is

9 necessary for bump firing. The statute is

10 unambiguous as applied to Mr. Cargill's

11 non-mechanical bump stocks, and we ask the Court

12 to affirm on that ground.

13 JUSTICE THOMAS: Behind the

14 government's argument is a sense that the --

15 this statute was initially enacted because of

16 what some of the individuals did during

17 Prohibition.

18 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

19 JUSTICE THOMAS: And there was

20 significant damage from machineguns, carnage,

21 people dying, et cetera. And behind this is a

22 notion that the bump stock does the exact same

23 thing.

24 So, with that background, why

25 shouldn't we look at a broader definition of

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1 "function," one suggested by the -- the

2 government, as opposed to just the narrow

3 function that you suggest?

4 MR. MITCHELL: The problem with the

5 government's argument, Justice Thomas, is that

6 the phrase "single function of the trigger" can

7 only be construed grammatically to focus on the

8 trigger's function and not on what the shooter

9 does to the trigger.

10 And that's so for many reasons. For

11 -- for one thing, there cannot be a subject of

12 "function" because a shooter does not function a

13 trigger. Only a trigger can have a function and

14 not a shooter.

15 Now the Solicitor General is trying to

16 replace the word "function" in the statute with

17 the word "pull." And if the statute had

18 actually said a single pull of the trigger, that

19 phrase would clearly refer to an act taken by

20 the shooter because only a shooter can pull the

21 trigger. The trigger certainly can't pull

22 itself.

23 So, if the Court is going to interpret

24 the statute based on what it says rather than

25 based on the purposes or perhaps the overarching

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1 goals of what the 1934 legislature might have

2 been, there's no way it could accept the

3 government's construction of the statute because

4 it is changing the enacted words.

5 JUSTICE JACKSON: Can I give you a way

6 possibly?

7 MR. MITCHELL: Please.

8 JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. So the

9 statute says "function," as we've all

10 identified.

11 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

12 JUSTICE JACKSON: And as far as I can

13 tell, the sort of common usage of the word

14 "function" is not its operational design. It's

15 not the mechanics of the thing. It is what it

16 achieves, what it's being used for.

17 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

18 JUSTICE JACKSON: So I found

19 definitions. "Function" is defined as the

20 action for which a person or thing is

21 specifically fitted or used; the acts or

22 operations expected of the person or thing.

23 So, if you take that definition --

24 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- it seems to me

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1 that, through its use of the word "function,"

2 Congress was trying to capture a class of

3 weapons in which a trigger is used once to

4 achieve a certain result, which says, in the

5 statute, automatic firing many times.

6 And so weapons with bump stocks have

7 triggers that function in the same way. They --

8 through a single, right, pull of the trigger or

9 touch of the trigger, you achieve the same

10 result of automatic fire --

11 MR. MITCHELL: No.

12 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- of the weapon.

13 So why -- why is that inconsistent with grammar

14 or the -- the -- the way the statute reads?

15 MR. MITCHELL: Well, the premise of

16 Your Honor's question is not true. A single

17 discharge of the trigger produces only one shot.

18 It doesn't produce a round of automatic fire.

19 The only way you get to repeated shots with a

20 bump stock equipped rifle is for the shooter

21 himself to continually undertake manual action

22 by thrusting the forestock of the rifle forward

23 with his non-shooting hand.

24 JUSTICE JACKSON: But that's not the

25 trigger. He's only touched the -- he's holding

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1 the trigger or touched the trigger once, right?

2 MR. MITCHELL: No. He touches the

3 trigger every single time. He has to bump the

4 trigger.

5 JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I'm sorry, the

6 machine -- but the machine is moving --

7 MR. MITCHELL: The machine --

8 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- to make his --

9 MR. MITCHELL: The machine is

10 moving --

11 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay.

12 MR. MITCHELL: -- but the trigger has

13 to be bumped.

14 JUSTICE JACKSON: So then let me ask

15 you a question.

16 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

17 JUSTICE JACKSON: The -- the other

18 question is -- I understood this to be a

19 classification statute in the sense that

20 Congress is trying to identify and classify

21 certain weapons. So, if you're right --

22 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

23 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- I want to

24 understand why that matters. Why does it matter

25 for the purpose of this statute that we have

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1 backwards pressure in the ordinary case of a

2 machinegun and forward pressure here? You're

3 saying there's a distinction being drawn. Bump

4 stocks don't fit into this category because of

5 this distinction, and I guess I don't understand

6 why Congress would have prohibited one and not

7 the other. Why -- why does it matter?

8 MR. MITCHELL: Well, it matters

9 because the statute turns on whether the bump

10 stock equipped rifle will fire more than one

11 shot automatically by a single function --

12 JUSTICE JACKSON: Right. But they're

13 -- the -- the -- the --

14 MR. MITCHELL: -- of the trigger. So

15 to answer that --

16 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- the statute is in

17 con -- in context.

18 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

19 JUSTICE JACKSON: The statute is

20 classifying certain weapons for prohibition.

21 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

22 JUSTICE JACKSON: So, for it to make

23 sense, we have to understand why this category

24 of weapons are ones that Congress wants to

25 prohibit. And you're suggesting that Congress

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1 is prohibiting through this classification

2 weapons in which we hold it backwards and

3 automatic fire happens, but we push it forward

4 and automatic fire happens, Congress says no,

5 that's not in the --

6 MR. MITCHELL: There's no automatic

7 fire. I'm sorry. Justice Jackson --

8 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay.

9 MR. MITCHELL: -- there is no

10 automatic fire with a --

11 JUSTICE JACKSON: Sorry. Eight

12 hundred -- 800 bullets -- the conversation with

13 Justice Kagan suggested that, through a bump

14 stock, you can achieve the same kinds of result

15 in terms of the amounts of bullets that are

16 being ejected --

17 MR. MITCHELL: That is true.

18 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- is that correct?

19 Okay.

20 MR. MITCHELL: It has a very high rate

21 of fire, but it's not automatically fired.

22 JUSTICE JACKSON: Right, but what I'm

23 --

24 MR. MITCHELL: This is --

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- suggesting is

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1 that the category of prohibition is about the

2 high rate of fire as opposed to, you know, the

3 movement of the trigger. And if you're right

4 that it's about the movement of the trigger, I'm

5 just asking why, why would -- why would Congress

6 want to prohibit certain things based on whether

7 the trigger is moving as opposed to certain

8 things that can achieve this, you know, lethal

9 kind of spray of bullets?

10 MR. MITCHELL: Because the statute was

11 written in 1934, about a hundred years before we

12 had bump stocks. So Congress drafted the

13 statute at that time to capture the type of

14 weaponry it wanted to prohibit in 1934, so --

15 JUSTICE KAGAN: Your interpretation,

16 Mr. Mitchell, though -- you've said this several

17 times in your brief -- captures a fair number of

18 weapons that nobody had on their radar screen in

19 1934, so let me ask you about that and where the

20 line is.

21 MR. MITCHELL: Sure.

22 JUSTICE KAGAN: If a gun fires

23 multiple shots at the push of a button or the

24 flip of a switch and just keeps firing -- -

25 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. Clearly, that's a

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1 machinegun.

2 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- that's a

3 machinegun?

4 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. That's United

5 States against Camp essentially.

6 JUSTICE KAGAN: Okay. And if a -- if

7 -- if a gun does the same thing, except now it's

8 the push of two buttons?

9 MR. MITCHELL: So one button that

10 fires and then the other button that's

11 necessary?

12 JUSTICE KAGAN: Yes.

13 MR. MITCHELL: Both buttons necessary?

14 JUSTICE KAGAN: Yes.

15 MR. MITCHELL: And neither are by

16 themselves sufficient?

17 JUSTICE KAGAN: Yeah. I thought you

18 say also, on page 45 of your brief, that a

19 push-operated machinegun that requires the

20 shooter to push and hold two buttons, that that

21 would also qualify.

22 MR. MITCHELL: Right, because the two

23 buttons together are acting as the trigger in

24 that scenario.

25 JUSTICE KAGAN: Okay.

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1 MR. MITCHELL: So the trigger is the

2 device that initiates the firing of the weapon.

3 JUSTICE KAGAN: Okay.

4 MR. MITCHELL: So, if you need to push

5 two buttons and not just one, then both, the two

6 buttons combined, are the trigger.

7 JUSTICE KAGAN: Okay. So now, instead

8 of doing two buttons, suppose you had one button

9 and with the other hand you held the trigger.

10 MR. MITCHELL: One button that you're

11 pushing and then with the other hand you're --

12 JUSTICE KAGAN: Yeah. Instead of two

13 buttons --

14 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

15 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- it's one button and

16 you held the trigger.

17 MR. MITCHELL: And you need to do both

18 to fire? You can't just do one?

19 JUSTICE KAGAN: Same as you just had

20 to do with two buttons.

21 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

22 JUSTICE KAGAN: And you conceded the

23 two buttons is a machinegun. So now I'm saying,

24 instead of pushing two buttons, you push one

25 button and you hold the trigger.

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1 MR. MITCHELL: It's going to depend on

2 what -- how we define "trigger." And as -- the

3 answer to that will not always be clear. The

4 question is, can you extend the holding of

5 United States against Camp to this particular

6 situation? The trigger --

7 JUSTICE KAGAN: I mean, I have to

8 say --

9 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

10 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- I think you don't

11 quite know what the answer to that is -- if you

12 have an answer, let me know -- because the

13 difference between pushing two buttons --

14 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

15 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- for me and

16 pushing one button and holding the trigger is

17 not self-evident.

18 MR. MITCHELL: To pushing a button and

19 holding the trigger and you need to do both --

20 JUSTICE KAGAN: Same.

21 MR. MITCHELL: -- and both --

22 JUSTICE KAGAN: Boy, I thought I was

23 being pretty clear here.

24 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

25 JUSTICE KAGAN: You push two buttons.

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1 You say it's a machinegun. Now you don't push

2 two buttons. You have to push one button and

3 hold the trigger.

4 MR. MITCHELL: That shouldn't make a

5 difference if they're both going to be

6 considered -- they either have to both be

7 machineguns or neither. I don't think you can't

8 draw a distinction between --

9 JUSTICE KAGAN: Correct.

10 MR. MITCHELL: I agree with that much.

11 JUSTICE KAGAN: And you said the first

12 is a machinegun, so the second has to be a

13 machinegun.

14 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

15 JUSTICE KAGAN: Okay. So now I guess

16 I want to know, what's the difference between

17 pushing a button and holding the trigger and

18 pushing the barrel and holding the trigger?

19 You've just described a bump stock.

20 MR. MITCHELL: No. No, because you

21 don't need to push the barrel forward to fire

22 the weapon. You can fire the weapon just by

23 clicking the trigger every single time, like a

24 normal semiautomatic weapon fires. So, no.

25 JUSTICE KAGAN: But -- but what the

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1 bump stock does --

2 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

3 JUSTICE KAGAN: Oh, you're saying you

4 don't have to put pressure?

5 MR. MITCHELL: Well, it's neither

6 necessary nor sufficient to fire the weapon.

7 The trigger is the device --

8 JUSTICE KAGAN: All right.

9 MR. MITCHELL: -- that initiates the

10 firing of the weapon. So --

11 JUSTICE KAGAN: Here's what I'm trying

12 to say. You've -- and I appreciate --

13 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

14 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- your, you know,

15 going down this road of hypotheticals with me.

16 But, if -- if pushing one button and

17 holding a trigger is a machinegun, then --

18 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

19 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- a device that works

20 by pushing the barrel, the front of the gun,

21 essentially -- I don't know about these things

22 -- and holding the trigger seems again, to me,

23 to essentially do the same thing.

24 MR. MITCHELL: It --

25 JUSTICE KAGAN: And that is how

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1 everybody uses these devices. Like, I mean,

2 maybe you could use the device differently, but

3 the entire point of this device is that you

4 exert forward pressure and you have your finger

5 on the trigger, and then a torrent of bullets

6 shoots out. So I don't understand why it's any

7 different --

8 MR. MITCHELL: It is different.

9 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- from pushing a

10 button and holding the trigger --

11 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

12 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- pushing the barrel

13 and holding the trigger.

14 MR. MITCHELL: The difference is you

15 don't need to push the barrel to fire the

16 weapon. In the other hypotheticals that Your

17 Honor was describing, you need to push those

18 buttons to make the weapon fire. It is not

19 necessary --

20 JUSTICE KAGAN: So the fact that there

21 is a conceivable possibility of using these bump

22 stock devices in a way that does not take

23 advantage of what these bump stock devices do

24 and are able to do --

25 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

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1 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- the fact that there

2 is that conceivable possibility is what you are

3 resting your entire argument on?

4 MR. MITCHELL: No. Our argument

5 depends on what's the trigger. The trigger is

6 the device that initiates the firing of the

7 weapon.

8 A bump stock does not change the

9 trigger in any way. It does not alter the

10 nature of the trigger. The other hypothetical

11 devices that Your Honor is describing are

12 changing the triggering device either by

13 requiring pushing two buttons rather than just

14 one, nothing in the bump stock changes the

15 trigger. The trigger is still in this situation

16 the curved metal lever, and the Solicitor

17 General has never contested that point, neither

18 has DOJ, at any point in this litigation.

19 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Mr. Mitchell, I --

20 JUSTICE ALITO: And, Mr. Mitchell,

21 this kind -- this conversation is totally

22 confusing me because I -- I thought that your

23 argument depended on what the trigger -- that

24 the function of the trigger was what the trigger

25 does mechanically inside the weapon, and,

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1 therefore, whether you have one trigger or two

2 triggers or three triggers or 10 buttons, it

3 doesn't matter. It matter -- what matters is

4 what the trigger or the triggers do inside the

5 gun.

6 A -- an M6 -- back in the day when it

7 was possible to fire the standard military issue

8 rifles, M-16, from the 1970s on automatic, my

9 understanding is that the military doesn't even

10 -- you can't even do that anymore. All you can

11 fire at most is a burst of three shots.

12 But there are two buttons on -- on the

13 -- on the old-time M-16. You have to flip

14 the -- well, there are three. You have to --

15 you have to flip it over from semiautomatic to

16 automatic. That's one button. And then the

17 other button is the pulling of the trigger.

18 But do I misunderstand your argument?

19 MR. MITCHELL: No, you're not

20 misunderstanding at all. The function of the

21 trigger is what the trigger does to cause the

22 weapon to fire. That's what "function of the

23 trigger" means.

24 But, to determine that, we need to

25 first determine what exactly the trigger is

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1 before we can consider what is the function of

2 the trigger. And there will be certain types of

3 devices like this motorized trigger device in

4 United States against Camp where the trigger

5 actually is changed because you're no longer

6 pulling the curved metal lever to set off the

7 weapon; instead, you're flipping some switch

8 that starts the motor --

9 JUSTICE ALITO: Can you think of any

10 --

11 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Now I'm completely

12 lost. The trigger is not doing anything. It's

13 the person doing something. And it's the person

14 choosing on an M-16 whether they're going to

15 keep the switch on semiautomatic or put the

16 switch on automatic and turn the M-16 into a

17 machinegun.

18 And on a machinegun, it's not the

19 trigger that does this. It's the pressure that

20 the shooter is using to hold the trigger down

21 that permits it to keep going.

22 MR. MITCHELL: That's what causes the

23 trigger to function.

24 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, but the --

25 MR. MITCHELL: The -- the -- the test

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1 --

2 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: That's what the

3 government is saying, which is you're not

4 looking at what the -- what the trigger is

5 doing. You're looking at what the shooter is

6 doing. And is he using a force, keeping the gun

7 down -- keeping the trigger down or holding the

8 bump stock and letting it shoot back and forth

9 in an automatic recoil.

10 Those are not things that changes the

11 automatic nature of the firing.

12 MR. MITCHELL: It still has nothing to

13 do with what the shooter does. The question is

14 what does the trigger do when it functions. And

15 if the trigger allows more than one shot to fire

16 per function of the trigger, what is the single

17 function of the trigger? And on a semi --

18 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: But the

19 trigger's -- the trigger you're saying can be a

20 button. So why can't it be the bump stock

21 that's forcing this thing automatically in a

22 recoil motion to go back and forth?

23 MR. MITCHELL: Because the bump stock

24 doesn't fire the weapon. The bump stock is just

25 a case in which the weapon slides back and

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1 forth. That doesn't do anything to fire the

2 weapon. The only way --

3 JUSTICE BARRETT: They have defined

4 the bump stock as the trigger?

5 MR. MITCHELL: No one defines the bump

6 stock as the trigger in this case.

7 JUSTICE BARRETT: Could they have?

8 MR. MITCHELL: No, they could not

9 because the bump stock is neither necessary nor

10 sufficient for the firing of the weapon. It's

11 the curved metal lever on the semiautomatic

12 rifle that causes the weapon to fire. That --

13 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Mr. --

14 MR. MITCHELL: Yes?

15 JUSTICE GORSUCH: Sorry. Mr.

16 Mitchell, it seems to me the spirit of some of

17 the questions you're getting are in the nature

18 of the anticircumvention principle --

19 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

20 JUSTICE GORSUCH: -- that, okay, maybe

21 in 1934 "function of the trigger" meant the

22 firing, the -- the -- the essential thing that

23 causes the weapon to fire.

24 But the high rate of fire that's

25 achievable through bump stocks is effectively

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1 the equivalent, and we should take cognizance of

2 that.

3 Your thoughts?

4 MR. MITCHELL: It's just not what the

5 statute says. It has nothing to do with the

6 rate of fire.

7 JUSTICE KAGAN: But -- but the statute

8 doesn't say a lot of things that you've agreed

9 are prohibited under the statute. The statute

10 doesn't, you know, think about buttons, and the

11 statute doesn't think about switches.

12 And I have to think that if I gave you

13 a different hypo that said it was

14 voice-activated that you would have to say yes,

15 that's a machinegun too. And the statute

16 doesn't think about that.

17 And I guess what Justice Gorsuch is

18 saying is that you in arguing this case have had

19 to do something very sensible because,

20 otherwise, it would seem, you know, like, you

21 know, that this statute is loaded with

22 anticircumvention devices. The entire way this

23 statute is written suggests that Congress was

24 very aware -- aware that there could be small

25 adjustments of a weapon that could get around

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1 what Congress meant to prohibit.

2 And -- and -- and in all kinds of

3 ways, you are accepting of that and saying yes,

4 you can circumvent it by that. You can't

5 circumvent it by non-conventional triggers. You

6 can't circumvent it by, you know, all these

7 things that -- these hypotheticals I've been

8 giving you, but you can circumvent it through

9 this one mechanism.

10 MR. MITCHELL: I'm not conceding that

11 you can circumvent the statute, Justice Kagan.

12 We're just interpreting the word "trigger,"

13 which is a term that appears in the statutory

14 text and it has to be interpreted.

15 When you're dealing with the motorized

16 trigger device, that's an easy case in one

17 direction because that has changed the trigger

18 from the curved metal lever because the shooter

19 is no longer using that to fire the weapon.

20 Instead, there's a switch that is

21 flipped and that switch is now triggering the

22 device because that is the function, turning on

23 the switch, that then causes automatic fire to

24 occur because there's some motor that's moving

25 the trigger back -- I'm sorry, I shouldn't say

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1 the trigger -- the curved metal lever back and

2 forth. That's United States against Camp.

3 This is an easy case because the bump

4 stock doesn't change the trigger in any way.

5 JUSTICE JACKSON: But what you do --

6 MR. MITCHELL: Everyone --

7 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- what do about

8 modification pieces? I guess I don't understand

9 your argument insofar as I had taken the United

10 States to always take the position, and I

11 actually had a case about this when I was a

12 district court judge, where the question was

13 were these flat metal pieces that were mailed

14 internationally to the defendant machineguns.

15 And we were all confused. The jury

16 was confused because we had this notion of what

17 a machinegun was. And the government argued

18 that this metal piece was a machinegun and

19 brought in experts that said under this statute,

20 anything that can be used to convert a regularly

21 operating semiautomatic weapon into one that

22 rapid fires qualifies.

23 MR. MITCHELL: I'm sorry, Justice

24 Jackson, rapid --

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: That's wrong?

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1 MR. MITCHELL: -- rapid fire is not

2 the test under the statute. It's not whether it

3 fires rapidly. It's whether it fires more than

4 one shot automatically --

5 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay, I'm sorry.

6 I'm sorry.

7 MR. MITCHELL: -- by a single function

8 of the trigger.

9 JUSTICE JACKSON: I'm sorry.

10 MR. MITCHELL: Okay.

11 JUSTICE JACKSON: They said it could.

12 But what we focused on was not whether that

13 metal piece changed the way the trigger

14 operated. Now maybe you're saying that's wrong,

15 but I guess what I'm focused on is that your

16 argument seems to rest on the assumption that

17 the function of the trigger, as Justice Alito

18 says, is what the trigger does inside the gun.

19 MR. MITCHELL: That's correct.

20 JUSTICE JACKSON: Why is it

21 irrational, wrong, et cetera, to think of the

22 function of the trigger as what it does to cause

23 the weapon to automatically fire more than one

24 shot?

25 If that's what we mean by "function of

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1 the trigger," which is in the statute,

2 automatically more than one shot, and what we're

3 saying is by -- if -- if one operation causes

4 the trigger to -- the function -- causes the

5 function of the trigger to make the weapon

6 automatically fire more than one shot, I guess I

7 don't understand why your reading is preferable

8 to that when -- when -- when the common

9 understanding of a machinegun is that it is

10 doing this sort of thing at the end of the day.

11 MR. MITCHELL: Well, it's because the

12 trigger on a bump stock equipped rifle does not

13 cause the rifle to automatically fire more than

14 one shot. You still have to have manual action

15 by the shooter in response to every single shot

16 that gets fired. The shooter has to continue to

17 thrust that force stock forward --

18 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay. And if --

19 MR. MITCHELL: -- with his nonshooting

20 hand.

21 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- that's true --

22 that's true -- that -- that is --

23 MR. MITCHELL: It is true, yes.

24 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay. That is a

25 distinction. My other question then comes in.

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1 Why does that distinction matter from Congress's

2 perspective in terms of it writing a statute

3 that it was trying to prohibit that?

4 If you're right that that's the

5 relevant distinction, I guess I need a reason

6 why there's something inherently so much worse

7 about a situation in which you push it forward

8 rather than pull it back that that -- that we

9 can reasonably say that that was a particular

10 category that Congress wanted to prohibit?

11 And that's what I'm missing in your

12 argument.

13 MR. MITCHELL: It's because -- yeah.

14 JUSTICE JACKSON: It doesn't make

15 sense to me that we're going to identify guns on

16 that purpose and say those are the ones that

17 prohibit -- that are prohibited that are

18 prohibited when others that achieve the same

19 result are not.

20 MR. MITCHELL: It's because the

21 statute was written in 1934, and Congress wasn't

22 thinking about bump stocks when they wrote this

23 statute.

24 JUSTICE BARRETT: Mr. Mitchell --

25 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Counsel,

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1 you've said several times that you thrust with

2 your non-trigger hand, thrust part of the gun

3 forward.

4 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

5 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: And I

6 understood your friend on the other side to

7 focus on it more as maintaining pressure.

8 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

9 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Which is it?

10 I mean, do you hold it -- I mean, you have to

11 hold it harder at certain points rather than

12 others, or are you actually moving it with the

13 thrusting?

14 MR. MITCHELL: You're definitely

15 moving your hand back and forth. And Mr.

16 Fletcher agreed with us on that point. The hand

17 is moving.

18 I think where our disagreement comes

19 in is that Mr. Fletcher seems to characterize

20 the action of the non-shooting hand, so the left

21 hand for our right-handed shooter, as something

22 where you are applying constant pressure in a

23 certain direction, but the recoil is strong

24 enough to overcome that pressure from the

25 non-shooting hand and thereby move the weapon

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1 backward, despite the forward pressure that's

2 coming from the non-shooting hand.

3 JUSTICE KAGAN: But that means --

4 MR. MITCHELL: There are --

5 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- that if a -- if a

6 -- I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but that means

7 that the way a shooter perceives it is by

8 imposing constant forward pressure, not the

9 shooter is thinking I got to do this really

10 fast, you know, going back and forth.

11 MR. MITCHELL: The shooter can do

12 both. And it takes a lot of practice to master

13 the art of bump firing. So there is always

14 going to be recoil energy, and no person, I

15 think, is strong enough to push forward in a way

16 that overcomes the recoil energy. If they were,

17 bump firing wouldn't happen.

18 So for successful bump firing to occur

19 there needs to be that back and forth motion.

20 There's recoil every time the rifle fires.

21 There's still pressure from the left hand, or

22 the right hand if you're a left-handed shooter.

23 There's still going to be pressure from that

24 non-shooting hand, but the shooter can decide

25 how much he wants to calibrate that pressure in

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1 response to the repeated recoils that he's

2 getting from the bump firing.

3 It doesn't have to be the same amount

4 of pressure each time. The shooter just has to

5 make sure that the hand is moving back and forth

6 because that's the only way you can have

7 successful bump firing.

8 But to get back to your question, Mr.

9 Chief Justice, I --

10 JUSTICE KAGAN: The shooter doesn't

11 make sure that the hand is moving back and

12 forth. That's the way the recoil operates. The

13 shooter just makes sure that he is pushing

14 forward, and then the recoil -- recoil operates

15 to, in fact, even though the shooter is not

16 experiencing this --

17 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

18 JUSTICE KAGAN: -- is -- is not

19 volitionally experiencing this, the shooter is

20 not moving his hand back and forward.

21 MR. MITCHELL: That's probably right

22 unless the shooter is so strong that he has to

23 ease off a little bit to make sure he doesn't

24 overcome the recoil. But to my knowledge, I

25 don't think there's anybody strong enough to

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1 make -- to actually be able to keep pushing and

2 forcing it past the recoil energy.

3 But, Mr. Chief Justice, I don't think

4 the answer to this question matters in the end

5 because even if we accept Mr. Fletcher's

6 characterization where it's just constant

7 pressure with the same amount of force,

8 continuously over a sustained period of time,

9 it's still a manual action.

10 There's nothing automatic about that.

11 The shooter is the one who is pushing. It's

12 human effort, human exertion. Nothing automatic

13 at all about this process.

14 And Mr. Fletcher said during his

15 remarks that the bump stock harnesses the recoil

16 energy of the weapon. That is false. With the

17 Akin's accelerator, there is harnessing because

18 the Akin's accelerator has a spring. So there

19 will be certain types of bump-firing devices

20 like the Akin's accelerator where you can

21 accurately say that the bump stock harnesses the

22 recoil energy of the weapon.

23 Not so with respect to a

24 non-mechanical bump stock. The weapon recoils.

25 Nothing is harnessed with respect to the recoil

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1 energy. And it is the shooter who must, with

2 that non-shooting hand, continue to thrust the

3 weapon forward in response.

4 JUSTICE BARRETT: If I disagree with

5 you about "automatically," can you win solely on

6 "function of a trigger"?

7 MR. MITCHELL: Absolutely, yes.

8 JUSTICE BARRETT: Why?

9 MR. MITCHELL: Because "the single

10 function of the trigger" -- the Solicitor

11 General has to win on both arguments to prevail.

12 We only need to win on one of the two. So we

13 could win on "automatically" standing alone. We

14 could win on "single function of the trigger"

15 standing alone. Or we could win on both. We

16 respectfully asked the Court to rule on both

17 because there's a well-developed circuit split

18 on each of the two different sub-issues within

19 the question presented.

20 JUSTICE BARRETT: Well, speaking of

21 "automatically," can you address the question I

22 asked Mr. Fletcher about a band bump firing?

23 And, you know, he said it was different on the

24 ground of "automatically." But how do you see

25 them functioning differently?

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1 MR. MITCHELL: They're

2 indistinguishable when it comes to

3 "automatically." Everything involved with the

4 band that Your Honor suggested and also

5 everything involved with Mr. Cargill's

6 non-mechanical bump stock is a manual action

7 undertaken entirely by the shooter.

8 There is no automating device. Mr.

9 Fletcher has yet to identify any device and the

10 non-mechanical bump stock that automates any

11 task that is necessary for successful bump

12 firing. It is all being done by the shooter.

13 There's the recoil after the shot gets

14 fired, and then it is the shooter who must, with

15 his own hand and with his own force, exert

16 pressure forward, consistently to make sure that

17 the trigger bumps into his finger. This is all

18 manual. Nothing automatic about it. Nothing at

19 all. And --

20 JUSTICE JACKSON: Can I ask you a

21 variation of the hypothetical black-box scenario

22 that the government puts forward in their -- and

23 you might be familiar with it. It's on --

24 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: It's in their brief.

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1 So they say that we've got two boxes, each of

2 which continuously fires bullets after the

3 operator presses and releases a button.

4 If I hear you correctly -- or maybe

5 you can just tell me.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

7 JUSTICE JACKSON: Box 1, the operator

8 pushes the button and the bullets come out

9 automatically. Box 2, the operator holds his

10 finger slightly above the box, and there is

11 something, you know, under the box that pushes

12 the box up into his finger. So the finger is

13 touching the trigger like a million times

14 because the -- in order for it to operate, the

15 box is going like so.

16 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

17 JUSTICE JACKSON: Pushing up. One is

18 machinegun, one is not. Same rate of --

19 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

20 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- velocity of

21 bullets coming out. That's your view?

22 MR. MITCHELL: The answer to that

23 question depends on what is a trigger.

24 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay.

25 MR. MITCHELL: In the holding of

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1 United States against Camp, that Fifth Circuit

2 decision that said motorized trigger devices are

3 machineguns --

4 JUSTICE JACKSON: Yeah.

5 MR. MITCHELL: -- and the rationale of

6 that case would be extended to this

7 hypothetical.

8 So I think the way to think of this,

9 Your Honor, is there are going to be easy cases

10 at each of the extremes, and there are going to

11 be harder cases in the middle. The easy case is

12 United States against Camp because that is a

13 situation where the trigger was changed. It no

14 longer is the curved metal lever.

15 JUSTICE JACKSON: Right, right, right.

16 MR. MITCHELL: It's a -- I want to --

17 JUSTICE JACKSON: But I guess -- and

18 your -- and your view is what makes it easy or

19 hard is not the sort of thought of mind that,

20 like, geez -- what makes it easy or hard is

21 actually distinguishing those two in the real

22 world, like in terms of what is actually

23 happening?

24 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: You think what makes

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1 it easy or hard is just identifying whether the

2 finger is -- is moving because the box is moving

3 or because the person is pushing it down?

4 MR. MITCHELL: What makes it hard is

5 whether it's changed the nature of the trigger

6 in some way. Clearly, that happened in Camp.

7 This situation with Mr. Cargill,

8 there's not even an argument that the trigger

9 has been changed. DOJ at no point in this

10 litigation has argued that bump stocks change

11 the nature of the trigger or change the trigger

12 at all.

13 There will be harder cases in the

14 middle, such as the forced reset triggers and

15 some of these hypotheticals that were discussed

16 in the D.C. Circuit's opinion in Guedes, where

17 there may be a question as to what exactly the

18 trigger is and them how does that trigger

19 function.

20 So, again, going back to Camp, when

21 there's a flip of a switch that turns on a motor

22 and that motor then forces the curved metal

23 lever back and forth, that's automatic fire.

24 That's a machinegun because we now have a new

25 trigger, the switch. It's no longer the curved

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1 metal lever.

2 So can that rationale be extended to

3 some of these hypotheticals where we talk about

4 black boxes and oscillating buttons? What

5 exactly is the trigger there? Is it merely the

6 button? Is it the motor that's moving the

7 button up and down? It's arguable either way.

8 We don't think the Court should

9 resolve any of that, I understand, but for us to

10 take a position on the question, it's all going

11 to depend on whether you can extend the holding

12 of Camp to these new situations.

13 The Akin's accelerator is a good

14 example to think about because in 2006, when ATF

15 changed its position on the Akin's accelerator,

16 ATF initially approved that device in 2002.

17 2006, it changed its mind.

18 And if you look at the classification

19 letter, their argument rests on an argument

20 similar to what Mr. Fletcher is making today.

21 They cite the legislative history from Karl

22 Frederick and say that "function of the trigger"

23 means "pull of the trigger." That rationale is

24 not going to work if the Akin's accelerator is

25 going to be characterized as a machinegun.

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1 What might work, though, is if there's

2 some possible argument to extend the holding of

3 United States against Camp to the Akin's

4 accelerator. Does that spring in the Akin's

5 accelerator change the nature of the trigger?

6 That's the question that needs to be addressed.

7 If ATF wants to continue to

8 characterize the Akin's accelerator as a

9 machinegun, it's going to need to come up with a

10 much better argument than what it offered in

11 2006. We're not closing the door on that

12 possibility, but we do think the actual

13 rationale that ATF has used is just as faulty

14 their rationale for banning non-mechanical bump

15 stocks.

16 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

17 counsel.

18 Justice Thomas?

19 JUSTICE THOMAS: Mr. Mitchell, the --

20 I think we -- you would agree that the bump

21 stock accelerates the rate of fire?

22 MR. MITCHELL: Absolutely.

23 JUSTICE THOMAS: Why wouldn't you then

24 take the further step of saying it changes the

25 nature of the trigger in doing that?

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1 MR. MITCHELL: Because the trigger

2 still has to reset after every single shot.

3 It's not accelerating the rate of fire by

4 changing the trigger. It's accelerating the

5 rate of fire --

6 JUSTICE THOMAS: That's not really

7 what I'm trying --

8 MR. MITCHELL: I'm sorry.

9 JUSTICE THOMAS: So the -- why

10 wouldn't you say that you have enhanced the

11 triggering mechanism by using the bump stock?

12 MR. MITCHELL: Because it's not

13 changing the triggering mechanism at all. It's

14 simply making it easy easier for the shooter to

15 bump that trigger repeatedly. The nature of the

16 triggering mechanism remains exactly the same.

17 What's going on inside the gun after the trigger

18 gets bumped is no different than what it would

19 be if it were a semi-automatic rifle without the

20 bump stock. And that's why the government can't

21 win on this "single function of the trigger"

22 point.

23 JUSTICE THOMAS: I think -- I think

24 the difference is that there may be some who

25 believe -- when -- when you look at it, the

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1 nature of the firing has changed as a result of

2 the bump stock. So if that's changed, why don't

3 you simply then look backwards and say that the

4 nature of the firing mechanism has changed;

5 thus, the nature of the trigger has changed?

6 MR. MITCHELL: What's changed, though,

7 is the rate of fire. And it's still one shot

8 per function of the trigger, even though the

9 shots are coming out of the barrel a lot faster

10 than they were before. The question is how many

11 functions of the trigger do we have for each of

12 the shots?

13 And the answer is one. If you divide

14 the number of shots that are fired from a

15 bump-stock-equipped rifle by the number of times

16 the trigger has to function to produce that

17 shot, the answer will always be one. And it

18 will remain that way because nothing in the

19 triggering mechanism has changed.

20 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice Alito?

21 JUSTICE ALITO: Can you imagine a

22 legislator thinking we should ban machineguns

23 but we should not ban bump stocks? Is there any

24 reason why a legislator might reach that

25 judgment?

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1 MR. MITCHELL: I think there is. Bump

2 stocks can help people who have disabilities,

3 who have problems with finger dexterity, people

4 who have arthritis in their fingers. There

5 could be a valid reason for preserving the

6 legality of these devices as a matter of policy,

7 even while similar weapons such as the fully

8 automatic machineguns are being banned.

9 Whether Congress would ultimately make

10 that judgment, we would have to wait and find

11 out whether they would decide it along those

12 ways. But there are respectable arguments for

13 why these could remain legal as a matter of

14 policy.

15 JUSTICE ALITO: And --

16 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Why would

17 anybody -- I'm sorry.

18 JUSTICE ALITO: I'm sorry.

19 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: I'm sorry.

20 JUSTICE ALITO: That's okay. In the

21 field of statutory interpretation, Justice

22 Scalia's bête noire was the Church of the Holy

23 Trinity, a case where he thought that the

24 literal language of the statute had to control

25 even though it's pretty hard to think that

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1 Congress actually meant that to apply in certain

2 situations.

3 As you see this case, is this another

4 Church of the Holy Trinity case?

5 MR. MITCHELL: I would say it's quite

6 as egregious as Church of the Holy Trinity, but

7 the arguments the government is making are

8 certainly in the spirit of the Holy Trinity, to

9 borrow a phrase that was used from the Holy

10 Trinity opinion and I don't think a textualist

11 judge can accept the rationale that was being

12 offered by the U.S. government and they are in

13 their brief especially making purposed arguments

14 along the lines of what we saw in the Church of

15 the Holy Trinity.

16 JUSTICE ALITO: Thank you.

17 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice

18 Sotomayor?

19 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Why would even a

20 person with arthritis, why would Congress think

21 they needed to shoot 400 to 7 or 800 rounds of

22 ammunition under any circumstance?

23 MR. MITCHELL: You can't choose --

24 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: If you don't let a

25 person without arthritis do that, why would you

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1 permit a person with arthritis to do it?

2 MR. MITCHELL: Well, they don't shoot

3 400 to 700 rounds because the magazine only goes

4 up to 50. So you're still going to have to

5 change the magazine after every round.

6 We allow large capacity magazines up

7 to 50. And also, there are many shooters who

8 can pull the trigger of a semi-automatic rifle

9 very quickly, who can accomplish rates of fire

10 similar to those that approach fully automatic

11 weapons.

12 So I don't --

13 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: All right.

14 Counsel, you spoke about legislative history and

15 -- and -- and I think you're trying to bat away

16 all of the statements during the legislative

17 process that called functions of the trigger the

18 single pull of the trigger by the shooter.

19 MR. MITCHELL: That's right.

20 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: But it's not

21 classic legislative history. It's how people

22 understood a term at the time. That's not

23 legislative history.

24 MR. MITCHELL: Well, it's still

25 legislative history. They're just using it for

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1 a purpose that they claim --

2 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, Justice

3 Thomas said in McDonald versus City of Chicago

4 that it's perfectly acceptable to do that, to

5 use, he said, if it's being cited to show what

6 lawmakers -- how lawmakers used a particular

7 term that's different than what they intended.

8 MR. MITCHELL: So if we're using

9 legislative history in an effort to discern the

10 original public meaning of the statute, which is

11 how I understand Your Honor's characterization.

12 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Exactly.

13 MR. MITCHELL: And I think that's how

14 Mr. Fletcher is trying to characterize his

15 reliance on the statement from Mr. Frederick.

16 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, It's not

17 just that.

18 MR. MITCHELL: Which is -- it's the

19 statement of a lobbyist.

20 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: We've got

21 statements -- we've got statements in the House

22 from legislators in the House. We have

23 statements from legislators in the Senate. All

24 of them consistently translating function of the

25 trigger to mean a single pull of the trigger.

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1 MR. MITCHELL: Right. And they're all

2 wrong because the statute also was written to

3 encompass weapons that have push triggers rather

4 than pull triggers. And the solicitor general

5 acknowledges this point in her opening brief.

6 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, that -- that

7 would suggest to me is that, contrary to what

8 you're saying, that is they never understood

9 this to be how the trigger functions but how the

10 shooter functions.

11 MR. MITCHELL: No, I think we should

12 draw the exact opposite inference. It proves

13 how unreliable legislative history is as a tool

14 to try to discern what statute --

15 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: We're going to

16 disagree.

17 MR. MITCHELL: Well, it's because,

18 Justice Sotomayor, the phrase "pull of the

19 trigger" can't be equated with function of the

20 trigger. And even the solicitor general

21 acknowledges that because they say in their

22 brief that the statute needs to be read in a way

23 that encompasses fully automatic weapons that

24 have push triggers, rather than triggers that

25 are pulled. So the word "function" --

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1 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: And you agree?

2 MR. MITCHELL: I'm sorry, go ahead.

3 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: And -- and you

4 agree?

5 MR. MITCHELL: I agree that function

6 can't be equated with the word pull.

7 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: But the only way

8 you can get there is by looking at what the

9 shooter is doing.

10 MR. MITCHELL: No, that's not --

11 JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Okay, counsel.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. MITCHELL: -- correct. You don't

14 need to look at what the shooter is doing. A

15 weapon can go off by accident. You don't need a

16 shooter. There's still a function of the

17 trigger if the weapon falls on to the floor and

18 goes off accidentally with a discharge, the

19 trigger has functioned even though the shooter

20 hasn't pulled the trigger or pushed it or bumped

21 it. What matters under the statute is what the

22 trigger does.

23 And all these examples that we see in

24 the Solicitor General's brief, Justice Gorsuch

25 mentioned this earlier, when they're taking

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1 transitive verbs, when they say swing of the bat

2 or stroke of the key or roll of the dice, all of

3 those are transitive verbs that are capable of

4 taking an object.

5 So, when you see swing of the bat,

6 there's obviously an unnamed actor in that

7 sentence that is the subject of the verb swing.

8 The bat can't swing itself. The bat's an

9 inanimate object.

10 Function of the trigger is entirely

11 different. Function is an intransitive verb.

12 It can't take an object grammatically. It's

13 impossible. The trigger has to be the subject

14 of function. It can't be the object.

15 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

16 counsel.

17 MR. MITCHELL: I'm sorry.

18 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice Kagan?

19 JUSTICE KAGAN: I guess, Mr. Mitchell,

20 I mean, those four words are not the entire

21 statute, you know, function of the trigger.

22 It's by a function of the trigger and

23 what's the by? It's shooting -- you know,

24 presumably, a shooter is there, but, you know,

25 maybe it happens spontaneously, but shooting

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1 more than one shot by a single function of the

2 trigger. I mean, that's the relevant language,

3 right, shooting more than one shot by a single

4 function of the trigger. And then there's also

5 the automatic thing.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Automatic, yeah, that's

7 right.

8 JUSTICE KAGAN: So I don't want to --

9 I don't want to ignore that. But it -- it seems

10 as if you look at the entire phrase, what that

11 means is that Congress had wanted to de-link the

12 number of shots that were coming out of a

13 barrel, right, more than one shot, it wanted to

14 de-link that from a discrete human action.

15 And I would think, you know, it might

16 be, you pull the trigger, it might be you push

17 the trigger, it might be you switch on the

18 trigger, it might be you voice activate the

19 trigger, there's a discrete human action and it

20 produces a torrent of bullets.

21 And that's exactly what's happening

22 here. You push the bump stock. Now you're --

23 you're saying, well, maybe they didn't define

24 the bump stock as the trigger, but -- but it --

25 it functions in precisely the same way.

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1 And a torrent of bullets comes out,

2 and this is in the heartland of what they were

3 concerned about, which is anything that takes

4 just a little human action to produce more than

5 one shot is what they were getting at.

6 MR. MITCHELL: That's just not the way

7 they wrote the statute. If that's what they

8 were getting at, they should have drafted the

9 statute --

10 JUSTICE KAGAN: Shoot --

11 MR. MITCHELL: -- better than what

12 they did. I mean, it depends on whether more

13 than one shot is coming out by a single function

14 of the trigger.

15 And I agree with Your Honor, there --

16 the rate of fire of a bump stock equipped rifle

17 approaches the rate of fire of a fully automatic

18 weapon. And there may be good policy reasons to

19 treat these as identical.

20 There may also be good policy reasons

21 to distinguish them. That's ultimately a

22 decision for Congress to make. It's certainly

23 not a decision for a court or for an

24 administrative agency that's charged with

25 implementing the instructions of Congress.

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1 JUSTICE KAGAN: I mean, Mr. Mitchell,

2 I will tell you I -- I view myself as a good

3 textualist. I think that that's the way we

4 should think about statutes. It's by reading

5 them.

6 But, you know, textualism is not

7 inconsistent with common sense. Like, at some

8 point, you have to apply a little bit of common

9 sense to the way you read a statute and

10 understand that what this statute comprehends is

11 a weapon that fires a multitude of shots with a

12 single human action.

13 Whether it's a continuous pressure on

14 a -- a conventional machinegun, holding the

15 trigger, or a continuous pressure on one of

16 these devices on the barrel, I -- I can't

17 understand how anybody could think that those

18 two things should be treated differently.

19 MR. MITCHELL: Well, they're treated

20 differently because the statute turns on a

21 single function of the trigger. And the problem

22 for the government is they're not able to change

23 the nature of the trigger that currently exists

24 on a semiautomatic rifle simply by adding a bump

25 stock, which is nothing more than a casing that

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1 allows the rifle to side slide back and forth.

2 The trigger is exactly the same as

3 what it was before, and the function of the

4 trigger is exactly the same as what it was

5 before.

6 I mean, think of a semiautomatic rifle

7 where someone just has a very quick trigger

8 finger. That could also have a very, very high

9 rate of fire, but it's still one shot per

10 function of the trigger.

11 And that's the problem here the

12 government still is not able to overcome. Every

13 time that trigger functions inside a bump stock

14 equipped rifle, there is one shot and only one

15 shot that gets fired, even though there may be

16 rapid functions that occur consecutively because

17 of the bump stock equipped device.

18 JUSTICE KAGAN: Thank you.

19 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

20 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice

21 Gorsuch?

22 Justice Kavanaugh?

23 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: In response to a

24 lot of the questions, you've made the point that

25 bump stocks were not around as of 1934. And

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1 that's a -- a good point for you.

2 But what evidence is there, if any,

3 that as of 1934, the ordinary understanding of

4 the phrase "function of the trigger" referred to

5 the mechanics of the gun rather than the -- the

6 shooter's motion?

7 MR. MITCHELL: Well, it had to. And

8 the evidence that we can see is the evidence the

9 Solicitor General points out about the fact that

10 there were push triggers in existence at that

11 time.

12 And that function of the trigger, even

13 though you can find legislative history where

14 there seem to be people who think function of

15 the trigger means the same thing as pull of the

16 trigger, those phrases cannot be equated for

17 that very reason.

18 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: I guess I'm asking

19 the opposite.

20 MR. MITCHELL: I'm sorry.

21 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Was there any

22 evidence someone was drawing that distinction?

23 MR. MITCHELL: Drawing the distinction

24 between push and pull? Or --

25 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: No. The

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1 distinction between function -- that "function

2 of the trigger" meant something different.

3 MR. MITCHELL: I'm not aware of that

4 in the legislative history, but as a textualist

5 --

6 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Are you aware of

7 that anywhere in kind of communication at the

8 time?

9 MR. MITCHELL: Not at the time, no,

10 because the communication, as we can see from

11 the record, was rather sloppy. People were

12 using "pull of the trigger" as a phrase they

13 thought was synonymous with "function of the

14 trigger."

15 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: I guess --

16 MR. MITCHELL: That obviously is not

17 the case.

18 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Okay. So no one

19 that was saying, oh, "function of the trigger,"

20 that's a different phrase than "pull or push"

21 and, therefore, it means something different?

22 Are you aware of anybody who said that anywhere

23 --

24 MR. MITCHELL: No, but as --

25 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: -- in America at

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1 the time?

2 MR. MITCHELL: I'm not aware of that.

3 As a textualist, I don't find that concerning

4 because --

5 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Well, if -- as a

6 textualist, you have to think about the phrase,

7 not just each word in the phrase. That's --

8 MR. MITCHELL: That's right. That's

9 right.

10 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

11 MR. MITCHELL: And we look at the

12 phrase "function of the trigger," as I was

13 saying earlier, and Justice Gorsuch made this

14 point in some of his earlier questioning --

15 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

16 MR. MITCHELL: -- "function of the

17 trigger" --

18 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Yeah.

19 MR. MITCHELL: -- I mean, a trigger

20 is -- we talked about this before -- "trigger"

21 has to be the subject of "function." It can't

22 be the object or --

23 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Right, and now --

24 so the follow-on question is just focus on the

25 phrase, and I'm just making the point, I don't

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1 think anyone said this at the time --

2 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

3 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: -- which is -- it

4 doesn't defeat your argument. I'm not

5 suggesting it defeats your argument.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

7 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: But it would

8 obviously help your argument if people were

9 drawing that distinction, correct?

10 MR. MITCHELL: It certainly would

11 help, but the phrase, given the way it's written

12 right now and the impossibility textually of

13 trying to make "trigger" into an object of the

14 verb "function" --

15 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Okay. And then no

16 one was drawing the distinction. Why would

17 Congress have drawn that distinction? Your big

18 point, I think, we got to look at 1934, we got

19 to look at what Congress wrote. Why would

20 Congress have drawn that distinction in 1934?

21 MR. MITCHELL: Because they wanted to

22 get the fully automatic weapons that had the

23 push triggers. And if you use "pull the

24 trigger," you're know the going to reach those

25 devices. So they had to say "function of the

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1 trigger" to make sure we encompassed those forms

2 of weaponry, as well as the conventional fully

3 automatic weapon.

4 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: To cover push and

5 pull?

6 MR. MITCHELL: Push and pull.

7 Exactly.

8 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: And how should it

9 be define now, in your view -- you may have just

10 answered this --

11 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

12 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: -- to cover bump

13 stocks? In other words --

14 MR. MITCHELL: So --

15 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: -- tomorrow

16 Congress said, Mr. Mitchell, how should we write

17 this statute to cover bump stocks since

18 "function of the trigger," in your view, doesn't

19 do it?

20 MR. MITCHELL: Well, I'd have to ask

21 them what else do you want to encompass besides

22 bump stocks. If they want to make it --

23 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: It's just bump

24 stocks.

25 MR. MITCHELL: -- just bump stocks

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1 then I --

2 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Give me a sentence

3 that you think would cover bump stocks.

4 MR. MITCHELL: I would provide a

5 statutory definition of bump stocks that tracks

6 as closely with possible the non-mechanical

7 devices that Mr. Cargill has. And I certainly

8 wouldn't say --

9 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: It's not --

10 MR. MITCHELL: -- "single function of

11 a trigger."

12 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: -- great statutory

13 language.

14 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

15 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: You got anything

16 better than that?

17 (Laughter.)

18 MR. MITCHELL: I think you could say

19 any device -- and this may be a little too broad

20 -- but you could say any device that is used to

21 accelerate the rate of fire from a

22 semi-automatic weapon. That would probably

23 capture -- that would certainly capture bump

24 stocks. It might capture some other things, but

25 those other things would be similar enough to

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1 bump stocks that Congress would probably want to

2 ban them as well. If they --

3 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Back in the

4 '30s, some of the state statutes did that, I

5 guess --

6 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

7 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: -- at the time.

8 Okay. Last question. You haven't made a Second

9 Amendment or constitutional avoidance argument.

10 In your view, are bump stocks covered by the

11 Second Amendment, protected by the Second

12 Amendment?

13 MR. MITCHELL: We didn't argue that

14 because courts are generally loath to decide

15 constitutional questions when there's an easy

16 statutory off-ramp.

17 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: You didn't throw

18 it in as constitutional avoidance, and I imagine

19 that was a considered choice, and I'm curious

20 what -- what was behind that choice.

21 MR. MITCHELL: There's nothing that

22 prevents this Court from invoking the

23 constitutional avoidance canon on the Second

24 Amendment issue because there is a question at

25 least whether this falls within the dangerous

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1 and unusual weapons carveout in Heller.

2 We don't have a position on that

3 question because we didn't brief it, and also

4 "dangerous and unusual weapons" is vague enough

5 that it's just not clear to us what the answer

6 would be.

7 JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: Thank you.

8 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

9 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Justice

10 Barrett?

11 Justice Jackson?

12 JUSTICE JACKSON: So I guess I'm still

13 not clear as to why you believe there's only one

14 meaning of "function of the trigger" in this

15 context.

16 So why couldn't we read the words

17 "function of the trigger" in this statute to

18 mean the function of the trigger is to start a

19 chemical reaction that leads to the expulsion of

20 a projectile? If I read "function of the

21 trigger in that way," I think I come out to a

22 different result than you are positing. So help

23 me to understand why that couldn't be the

24 function of the trigger.

25 You -- in other words -- I know. I'm

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1 sorry.

2 MR. MITCHELL: That's okay. Sorry.

3 JUSTICE JACKSON: Confusing question.

4 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

5 JUSTICE JACKSON: You seem to be

6 saying that the function of the trigger and the

7 only one that Congress cared about, that matters

8 for the way this statute reads --

9 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

10 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- is the movement

11 of the trigger.

12 MR. MITCHELL: No, not necessarily the

13 movement.

14 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay. Tell me.

15 MR. MITCHELL: It's what the trigger

16 does --

17 JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes. I'm sorry.

18 MR. MITCHELL: -- to cause the weapon

19 to fire. That's --

20 JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay. What the

21 trigger does. And I guess --

22 MR. MITCHELL: And it's more than just

23 the movement.

24 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- I'm saying what

25 the trigger does, both in this case, in a bump

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1 stock case, and in a machinegun case, is to

2 start a chemical reaction that leads to the

3 expulsion of a projectile.

4 MR. MITCHELL: There --

5 JUSTICE JACKSON: So --

6 MR. MITCHELL: -- there are other

7 devices in the firearm that actually do that

8 part. What the trigger does, it releases the

9 powder --

10 JUSTICE JACKSON: No, no. No, no.

11 But it's -- it's like -- it's like causation,

12 right? It's like -- it's like Mrs. Palsgraf

13 standing on the scale.

14 MR. MITCHELL: Sure.

15 JUSTICE JACKSON: I mean, the trigger,

16 the trigger, you know, the function of it,

17 right, one could say is to start this chemical

18 reaction. Now some weapons might do it with a

19 button; some might do it with a pull.

20 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

21 JUSTICE JACKSON: Some weapons might

22 do it by moving back and forth quickly, by the

23 mechanics of the gun operating in a certain way.

24 Others might do it by the mechanics of the gun

25 operating in a different way.

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1 But I could say that the function is

2 to begin the chemical reaction that results in

3 the expulsion of this weapon, and that happens

4 both in the bump stock situation and in this

5 situation. So I don't understand why this

6 statute couldn't be read as -- the way that the

7 government is.

8 MR. MITCHELL: Even if -- even if you

9 read the statute that way, Your Honor, I don't

10 see how that wins the case for the government

11 because --

12 JUSTICE JACKSON: Why not?

13 MR. MITCHELL: Because only one shot

14 is being fired per function of the trigger. So

15 it's single --

16 JUSTICE JACKSON: No. Single

17 function --

18 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

19 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- right, if I read

20 the single --

21 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.

22 JUSTICE JACKSON: There's only a

23 single thing happens --

24 MR. MITCHELL: Right.

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- to begin the

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1 chemical reaction that expels the bullet, right?

2 MR. MITCHELL: That expels one bullet,

3 one shot.

4 JUSTICE JACKSON: But then we go into

5 the other part of the statute, "automatically,"

6 multiple shots. You can't forget the rest of

7 the statute. That was Justice Kagan's point.

8 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly not.

9 JUSTICE JACKSON: So, when we put

10 those together, the work of the function of the

11 trigger, I think, could be to start the chemical

12 reaction that then results in the automatic

13 shoot -- more than one shot coming out of the

14 gun. Why can't I interpret it that way?

15 MR. MITCHELL: If that's what actually

16 were happening, then I think you would have a

17 plausible argument for why this is a machinegun.

18 JUSTICE JACKSON: But that's just

19 because --

20 MR. MITCHELL: That's just not what

21 happens --

22 JUSTICE JACKSON: But -- but --

23 MR. MITCHELL: That's not the way it

24 works.

25 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- but that's just

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1 because you're interpreting the statute to say

2 you have to -- it has to be about the mechanics.

3 MR. MITCHELL: No.

4 JUSTICE JACKSON: And what I'm trying

5 to understand is how that's consistent with

6 Congress putting "modifications" in here.

7 MR. MITCHELL: I'm just saying as a --

8 right.

9 JUSTICE JACKSON: And that -- can I --

10 MR. MITCHELL: Sorry.

11 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- can I -- can I

12 just change the -- a little bit?

13 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm.

14 JUSTICE JACKSON: If you're right that

15 Congress cared about exactly the mechanistic

16 operation, then I'm confused as to why this

17 statute also talks about modifications, because

18 that suggests that Congress was not hung up on

19 exactly how this gun operates. We're -- we're

20 sweeping in all kinds of things, things that

21 originally weren't designed to work this way at

22 all, right? Were -- we're -- we're allowing for

23 machineguns to include things that can modify

24 something that didn't operate this way at all

25 into a machine -- into the kind of thing where a

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1 chemical reaction kicks it off and it

2 automatically fires more than one shot.

3 If that's what I'm thinking about,

4 then I guess I don't understand your hang-up

5 over how this operates mechanistically.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Well, the test under

7 the statute is whether it can be readily

8 restored to fire automatically more than one

9 shot by a single function of the trigger. It's

10 not whether it can be modified to fire

11 automatically more than one function of the

12 trigger. And if you --

13 JUSTICE JACKSON: All right. Well,

14 I'll look that up.

15 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah.

16 JUSTICE JACKSON: Yeah.

17 MR. MITCHELL: And just to get back to

18 your earlier question, Justice Jackson --

19 JUSTICE JACKSON: Mm-hmm. Yes.

20 MR. MITCHELL: -- it's factually

21 incorrect to say that a function of the trigger

22 automatically starts some chain reaction that

23 propels multiple bullets from the gun. A

24 function of the trigger fires one shot. Then

25 the shooter must take additional manual action.

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1 JUSTICE JACKSON: I -- I understand --

2 MR. MITCHELL: All right? So there's

3 no --

4 JUSTICE JACKSON: -- that's your

5 argument. Thank you.

6 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

7 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

8 counsel.

9 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.

10 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Rebuttal, Mr.

11 Fletcher?

12 REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BRIAN H. FLETCHER

13 ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS

14 MR. FLETCHER: Thank you, Mr. Chief

15 Justice.

16 So I take from my friend's answers

17 today that he does not seriously dispute that a

18 rifle with a bump stock does basically the same

19 thing as a machinegun and is basically just as

20 dangerous as a machinegun.

21 But his argument is the words that

22 Congress wrote in 1934 just don't cover it

23 because the words "single function of a trigger"

24 unambiguously refers to the movement or the

25 mechanics of the trigger, without regard to the

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1 action of the shooter.

2 We are not making a holy trinity

3 argument. If that is what the words meant, then

4 we would be stuck with the words. We are not

5 asking you to depart from the plain language.

6 We're asking you to give it its natural reading.

7 And I think, to understand why the

8 statute not only can be but should be read our

9 way, it's worth thinking about how many people

10 you have to disagree with in order to adopt my

11 friend's reading.

12 So, first of all, on the grammar,

13 Judge Ho, at page 56a of the Petition Appendix,

14 explains why it's perfectly natural to read

15 "function of the trigger" to refer to what the

16 shooter does to the trigger, not to what the

17 trigger does by itself.

18 Second, Justice Kavanaugh, you asked

19 about contemporaneous usage. There's a lot of

20 contemporaneous usage of people using the term

21 "pull of the trigger" to be synonymous with

22 "function of the trigger." That makes perfect

23 sense if we're talking about what the shooter

24 does, because the way the shooter activates

25 most, not all, but most triggers is by pulling

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1 on them.

2 But I think my friend conceded that

3 usage is all inconsistent with his reading. And

4 as you pointed out, there is no evidence that

5 anyone at the time or ever since, until the

6 development of devices like these, ever thought

7 that "function of a trigger" meant mechanical

8 movement independent of any action by the

9 shooter.

10 It's also worth emphasizing that even

11 if you looked at what the trigger does by

12 itself, what the trigger does is accept some

13 input by the shooter.

14 Justice Kagan, you asked about what

15 about a voice-activated trigger? You could also

16 have a trigger that works by swiping a

17 touchscreen. Those triggers don't necessarily

18 have any moving parts.

19 On our understanding, we say, is there

20 an act of the trigger that -- of the shooter

21 that initiates the firing sequence, a spoken

22 command, a swipe on the touchscreen, it works

23 perfectly.

24 On my friend's understanding, I have

25 no idea how he would deal with a firearm that

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1 had a trigger that did not have moving parts.

2 We've also talked some about

3 automatically. And I take my friend's point to

4 be that he thinks because there's some continued

5 manual input, the pushing forward, it can't be

6 automatic. But automatic just means by way of a

7 self-regulating mechanism. It doesn't mean it

8 eliminates all manual input. It just means that

9 it eliminates some of it.

10 And contrary to what my friend said, a

11 bump stock does eliminate manual action that the

12 shooter has to take. With a semi-automatic

13 weapon, you have to pull and release the trigger

14 with each shot. With an auto -- with a bump

15 stock the bump stock allows the recoil from each

16 shot to automatically push the rifle back,

17 disengaging the trigger, eliminating the need

18 for the shooter to manually release and then it

19 channels the forward and backward movement in

20 exactly the right way to allow a continuous

21 firing cycle to continue.

22 Now, I think it's also telling that

23 some of the gymnastics with respect that my

24 friend has to do in order to deal with all of

25 the other hypothetical and actual devices that

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1 have been out there because I think he

2 recognizes that the Aikens accelerator, the LV

3 15, the electronic reset assist device, the

4 fishing reel in Camp, all of these workarounds

5 have to be covered by the statute because it's

6 just not plausible to think that Congress

7 enacted something subject to such easy evasion.

8 But the only way he can say that those

9 are covered is by engaging in very implausible

10 understandings of what the trigger is. I think

11 for the Aikens accelerator, he suggested that

12 maybe the trigger is the spring in the back of

13 the rifle, rather than the lever that the -- the

14 shooter actually pulls to start the firing

15 sequence.

16 On the black box hypothetical, I'm

17 still not sure what his answer is but I think it

18 must be that the button is the trigger the first

19 time it moves up and down but then it stops

20 being the trigger when it keeps moving up and

21 down afterwards.

22 I think those are all very implausible

23 interpretations that this Court should not give

24 to a statute if there's another reading

25 available and our view is that there is another

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1 reading available.

2 In short, we think Congress in 1934

3 wrote this statute not just for the kinds of

4 devices that existed then but for other kinds of

5 devices that could be created in the future that

6 would do the same thing.

7 It enacted and strengthened these laws

8 because it did not want members of the public or

9 our nation's law enforcement officers to face

10 the danger from weapons that let a shooter spray

11 many bullets by making a single act.

12 That's exactly what bump stocks do, as

13 the Las Vegas shooting vividly illustrated, and

14 we think this Court should give the words

15 Congress wrote their full, natural meaning and

16 hold that they encompass bump stocks. Thank

17 you.

18 CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

19 counsel. The case is submitted.

20 (Whereupon, at 11:34 a.m., the case

21 was submitted.)

22

23

24

25

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950 [1] 40:7 address [1] 78:21 APA [4] 19:25 22:1,2,9 automatically [37] 4:24 5:
1 addressed [1] 84:6 appeals [1] 35:7 22 7:18 12:8,23 19:1 26:
1 [2] 10:10 80:7 A adjustments [1] 68:25 APPEARANCES [1] 1:18 15,16 27:6 33:20 44:6,14
10 [4] 3:19 9:16 20:1 64:2 a.m [3] 1:16 3:2 117:20 Administration [5] 42:7,8, appears [2] 45:21 69:13 47:3,16 48:15 49:8 54:11
10:03 [2] 1:16 3:2 abject [1] 35:25 17,18 45:8 Appendix [3] 9:17 15:14 55:21 66:21 71:4,23 72:2,
100-round [1] 3:18 able [6] 10:16 40:22 62:24 administrations [3] 19:18 113:13 6,13 78:5,13,21,24 79:3 80:
100-year-old [1] 20:13 77:1 96:22 97:12 20:14 21:23 application [1] 36:13 9 109:5 111:2,8,11,22 115:
102a [1] 9:16 above [1] 80:10 administrative [3] 20:11 applied [1] 49:10 3,16
104a [1] 9:16 above-entitled [1] 1:14 22:15 95:24 apply [5] 41:12,13,14 88:1 automating [4] 4:21 7:18
11:34 [1] 117:20 absolutely [3] 25:14 78:7 adopt [2] 23:10 113:10 96:8 48:21 79:8
112 [1] 2:10 84:22 adopted [2] 19:21 28:22 applying [2] 23:22 74:22 available [2] 116:25 117:1
15 [1] 116:3 accelerate [1] 103:21 advantage [1] 62:23 appreciate [1] 61:12 availed [1] 30:4
180 [1] 39:15 accelerates [1] 84:21 affirm [1] 49:12 approach [2] 34:3 89:10 avoidance [3] 104:9,18,23
1824 [1] 25:3 accelerating [2] 85:3,4 afterwards [1] 116:21 approaches [1] 95:17 aware [12] 27:17,20 28:7
1930s [2] 19:17 31:2 Accelerator [14] 40:13 43: agency [4] 28:1,13 43:22 approved [1] 83:16 30:10 35:4,11 68:24,24 99:
1934 [15] 4:2 41:7 45:11 51: 4,17 77:17,18,20 83:13,15, 95:24 AR-15 [1] 36:3 3,6,22 100:2
1 56:11,14,19 67:21 73:21 24 84:4,5,8 116:2,11 agency's [1] 23:1 aren't [1] 7:23 away [3] 14:2 16:2 89:15
97:25 98:3 101:18,20 112: accept [5] 32:9 51:2 77:5 ago [1] 23:12 arguable [1] 83:7 awkward [1] 31:14
22 117:2 88:11 114:12 agree [11] 8:15 18:11 30:7 argue [1] 104:13
1968 [2] 23:15 41:23 acceptable [1] 90:4 31:14 42:24 60:10 84:20 argued [2] 70:17 82:10
B
1970s [1] 64:8 accepting [2] 25:18 69:3 92:1,4,5 95:15 arguing [1] 68:18 bête [1] 87:22
accident [1] 92:15 argument [35] 1:15 2:2,5,8 back
[45] 6:10 7:6,21 9:11,
2 accidentally [1] 92:18
agreed [2] 68:8 74:16
12 10:13,16,19 12:13,24
2 [1] 80:9 agrees [2] 26:16 36:14 3:4,7 7:16 13:11,18 25:14
accomplish [1] 89:9 ahead [1] 92:2 33:14 47:10 49:14 50:5 63: 15:7 16:9,22 19:14 25:3,9
2002 [2] 43:5 83:16 according [1] 15:3 26:7,21 32:22 33:7 36:23
2006 [4] 43:16 83:14,17 84: account [2] 4:18 17:14 Aikens [2] 116:2,11 3,4,23 64:18 70:9 71:16
aimed [1] 19:7 73:12 82:8 83:19,19 84:2, 37:3 43:6 64:6 66:8,22,25
11 accounts [1] 47:2 69:25 70:1 73:8 74:15 75:
2006-2 [1] 43:21 Akin's [9] 77:17,18,20 83: 10 101:4,5,8 104:9 109:17
accurately [1] 77:21 13,15,24 84:3,4,8 112:5,12,21 113:3 10,19 76:5,8,11,20 82:20,
2007 [1] 44:2 achievable [1] 67:25 23 97:1 104:3 107:22 111:
2017 [2] 24:5 44:2 Akins [3] 40:13 43:4,16 arguments [4] 78:11 87:
achieve [7] 18:1 46:5 52:4, AL [2] 1:4 31:3 12 88:7,13 17 115:16 116:12
2018 [1] 24:10 9 55:14 56:8 73:18 back-and-forth [4] 4:21 5:
2023 [1] 35:3 Alito [15] 34:13,14 35:1,15, around [5] 25:18 41:7,9 68:
achieves [2] 46:2 51:16 23 37:11 63:20 65:9 71:17 25 97:25 3 6:18 24:19
2024 [1] 1:12 acknowledge [5] 22:16 26: background [1] 49:24
21a [1] 15:14 86:20,21 87:15,18,20 88: art [2] 38:6 75:13
5 28:3 29:11 40:20 16 arthritis [4] 87:4 88:20,25 backward [7] 5:9 6:11 11:
22-976 [1] 3:4 acknowledged [1] 15:14 7 15:15 49:3 75:1 115:19
28 [1] 1:12 allow [2] 89:6 115:20 89:1
acknowledges [2] 91:5,21 allowing [1] 110:22 assist [1] 116:3 backwards [6] 4:14 10:22
3 across [1] 29:21 allows [7] 4:10 13:1 19:1 assistive [1] 26:9 12:14 54:1 55:2 86:3
3 [1] 2:4 act [15] 4:3,11 11:2 14:9,13, 33:3 66:15 97:1 115:15 assumption [1] 71:16 ban [5] 4:20 25:18 86:22,23
13,15,19,22 17:4,12 33:3 alone [3] 36:10 78:13,15 assurance [1] 23:2 104:2
30 [1] 46:11
30s 104:4
[1] 50:19 114:20 117:11 alter [1] 63:9 ATF [26] 8:15 21:2,7,9 22: band [5] 11:20 12:1 26:12
acting [1] 57:23 ambiguity [1] 24:20 18,22 23:6,9 24:7 26:5 28: 78:22 79:4
4 action [19] 8:25 20:11 32:6, Amendment [4] 104:9,11, 9 29:12 33:6 34:4 36:23 bands [1] 11:23
400 40:16 88:21 89:3
[3] 7 42:3 51:20 52:21 72:14 12,24 43:3,7,8,15,21 44:2,11 83: banned [2] 18:13 87:8
45 [1] 57:18 74:20 77:9 79:6 94:14,19 America [1] 99:25 14,16 84:7,13 banning [1] 84:14
47 [1] 2:7 95:4 96:12 111:25 113:1 American [1] 40:6 ATF's [3] 34:16 44:10,21 Barr [1] 44:23
114:8 115:11 Americans [1] 23:17 attach [1] 32:15 barrel [8] 60:18,21 61:20
5 actions [3] 19:9 21:25 48: 62:12,15 86:9 94:13 96:16
amicus [1] 39:13 attached [1] 15:23
50 [2] 89:4,7 18 BARRETT [24] 9:7 11:14,
ammunition [1] 88:22 attaches [1] 32:11
56a [1] 113:13 activate [3] 14:17 31:18 94: 19,23 12:4 13:4 14:5,8,21
amount [2] 76:3 77:7 ATTORNEY [3] 1:4 44:22,
6 18 amounts [1] 55:15 23 15:2,11,18 16:7 25:23 33:
activates [1] 113:24 analysis [1] 44:9 Austin [1] 1:22 5 45:14,15 67:3,7 73:24
60 39:24
[1]
actor [1] 93:6 another [7] 10:24 21:2 28: auto [1] 115:14 78:4,8,20 105:10
600 [3] 10:14,17,17
acts [3] 7:24 49:5 51:21 24 47:23 88:3 116:24,25 auto-glove [2] 32:12 41:17 based [4] 24:16 50:24,25
650 [1] 40:14
actual [2] 84:12 115:25 answer [13] 17:16 35:10,10 automate [1] 26:20 56:6
7 actually [13] 10:6 15:10 50: 54:15 59:3,11,12 77:4 80: automated [1] 49:5 basically [3] 25:8 112:18,
7 [1] 88:21 18 65:5 70:11 74:12 77:1 22 86:13,17 105:5 116:17 automates [3] 6:18 9:4 79: 19
700 [3] 40:7,11 89:3 81:21,22 88:1 107:7 109: answered [1] 102:10 10 bat [5] 30:14 89:15 93:1,5,8
15 116:14 answers [1] 112:16 automatic [34] 5:6 8:16 9: bat's [1] 93:8
8 add [1] 44:18 became [1] 17:8
anticipated [1] 20:15 1 13:23 25:10 39:19 52:5,
800 [5] 18:4 19:1 40:16 55: added [2] 23:15 41:23 become [1] 42:7
anticircumvention [2] 67: 10,18 55:3,4,6,10 64:8,16
12 88:21 adding [1] 96:24 begin [2] 108:2,25
18 68:22 65:16 66:9,11 69:23 77:10,
9 addition [1] 48:16 anybody [4] 76:25 87:17 12 79:18 82:23 87:8 89:10 beginning [1] 35:3
additional [4] 16:3 44:1 48: 96:17 99:22 91:23 94:5,6 95:17 101:22 begins [1] 14:3
90 [1] 23:12
18 111:25 anyone's [1] 25:6 102:3 109:12 115:6,6 behalf [9] 1:20,23 2:4,7,10
900 [1] 40:11
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3:8 24:3 47:11 112:13 73:22 75:13,17,18 76:2,7 cases [3] 81:9,11 82:13 cited [1] 90:5 17 37:15 38:19 41:14,20
Behind [3] 49:13,21 104: 77:15,21,24 78:22 79:6,10, casing [1] 96:25 citing [1] 37:15 45:11 52:2 53:20 54:6,24,
20 11 82:10 84:14,20 85:11, category [4] 54:4,23 56:1 City [1] 90:3 25 55:4 56:5,12 68:23 69:
believe [4] 20:8 24:19 85: 15,20 86:2,23 87:1 94:22, 73:10 civil [1] 20:6 1 73:10,21 87:9 88:1,20
25 105:13 24 95:16 96:24 97:13,17, causation [1] 107:11 claim [1] 90:1 94:11 95:22,25 101:17,19,
belt [3] 11:24 26:1,11 25 102:12,17,22,23,25 103: cause [7] 17:21 18:4 48:3 class [2] 21:20 52:2 20 102:16 104:1 106:7
benchmark [1] 40:12 3,5,23 104:1,10 106:25 64:21 71:22 72:13 106:18 classic [1] 89:21 110:6,15,18 112:22 116:6
besides [1] 102:21 108:4 112:18 115:11,14,15 causes [6] 65:22 67:12,23 classification [9] 16:13,25 117:2,15
best [6] 9:13 21:9 23:10 24: 117:12,16 69:23 72:3,4 18:7 21:4 43:9 44:1 53:19 Congress's [1] 73:1
20,21,25 bump-fire [1] 8:4 causing [1] 48:17 55:1 83:18 Congressmen [1] 32:1
better [7] 13:7 22:14 31:8,9 bump-firing [2] 11:17 77: certain [13] 16:14,15 52:4 classify [1] 53:20 consecutively [1] 97:16
84:10 95:11 103:16 19 53:21 54:20 56:6,7 65:2 classifying [1] 54:20 consider [1] 65:1
between [15] 10:5 16:21 bump-stock-equipped 74:11,23 77:19 88:1 107: clear [9] 24:8 34:23 37:14 consideration [1] 45:22
19:23 21:21 26:1 34:15,17 [1] 86:15 23 42:13 45:18 59:3,23 105:5, considered [2] 60:6 104:
39:8 40:16 44:2 59:13 60: bumped [3] 53:13 85:18 certainly [10] 19:15 23:9 13 19
8,16 98:24 99:1 92:20 38:10 50:21 88:8 95:22 clearest [1] 46:10 consistent [5] 23:23 43:20,
big [1] 101:17 bumps [2] 26:7 79:17 101:10 103:7,23 109:8 clearly [4] 13:17 50:19 56: 22 47:2 110:5
bigger [1] 40:8 burst [1] 64:11 cetera [2] 49:21 71:21 25 82:6 consistently [2] 79:16 90:
bit [4] 33:13 76:23 96:8 110: Bush [2] 42:7,17 chain [1] 111:22 clicking [1] 60:23 24
12 button [32] 5:20 32:13 33:2, challenge [5] 20:1,3 22:1, close [1] 29:7 constant [3] 74:22 75:8 77:
black [3] 46:12 83:4 116:16 19,24 34:1 46:13,14,19,19 10 30:5 closely [1] 103:6 6
black-box [1] 79:21 56:23 57:9,10 58:8,10,15, challenging [1] 22:3 closer [1] 21:2 constitutional [4] 104:9,
blessed [1] 38:11 25 59:16,18 60:2,17 61:16 change [8] 63:8 70:4 82:10, closing [1] 84:11 15,18,23
borrow [1] 88:9 62:10 64:16,17 66:20 80:3, 11 84:5 89:5 96:22 110:12 cognizance [1] 68:1 construction [2] 46:24 51:
both [19] 3:23 5:11 6:16 7: 8 83:6,7 107:19 116:18 changed [14] 65:5 69:17 combined [1] 58:6 3
10 34:6 39:11 57:13 58:5, buttons [20] 57:8,13,20,23 71:13 81:13 82:5,9 83:15, come [6] 13:23 29:9 46:14 construed [1] 50:7
17 59:19,21 60:5,6 75:12 58:5,6,8,13,20,23,24 59:13, 17 86:1,2,4,5,6,19 80:8 84:9 105:21 contain [1] 43:11
78:11,15,16 106:25 108:4 25 60:2 62:18 63:13 64:2, changes [3] 63:14 66:10 comes [4] 72:25 74:18 79: contemporaneous [4] 4:
box [9] 46:12 80:7,9,10,11, 12 68:10 83:4 84:24 2 95:1 18 36:11 113:19,20
12,15 82:2 116:16 changing [4] 51:4 63:12 coming [7] 29:5 75:2 80:21 contemporary [1] 38:10
boxes [3] 46:10 80:1 83:4
C 85:4,13 86:9 94:12 95:13 109:13 contested [1] 63:17
Boy [1] 59:22 calibrate [1] 75:25 channels [1] 115:19 command [1] 114:22 context [3] 43:2 54:17 105:
breaks [1] 43:8 call [2] 11:20 12:1 characteristics [1] 42:2 comment [2] 21:13 28:12 15
BRIAN [5] 1:19 2:3,9 3:7 called [2] 36:21 89:17 characterization [2] 77:6 comments [1] 45:5 continual [2] 11:7,8
112:12 came [1] 1:14 90:11 common [6] 4:2 37:23 51: continually [2] 49:1 52:21
brief [15] 10:11 22:6 33:17, Camp [12] 32:16 57:5 59:5 characterize [3] 74:19 84: 13 72:8 96:7,8 continue [4] 72:16 78:2 84:
24 39:13 44:18 46:11 56: 65:4 70:2 81:1,12 82:6,20 8 90:14 common-sense [1] 42:5 7 115:21
17 57:18 79:25 88:13 91:5, 83:12 84:3 116:4 characterized [1] 83:25 communication [2] 99:7, continued [2] 44:24 115:4
22 92:24 105:3 cannot [3] 48:14 50:11 98: charged [1] 95:24 10 continues [3] 6:17 7:11 8:
briefed [1] 28:25 16 chemical [7] 105:19 107:2, community [1] 30:3 14
broad [2] 23:23 103:19 canon [1] 104:23 17 108:2 109:1,11 111:1 competition [1] 39:14 continuing [1] 16:5
broader [1] 49:25 capable [1] 93:3 Chicago [1] 90:3 completely [2] 15:17 65: continuous [8] 5:3,10 9:
brought [2] 35:12 70:19 capacious [1] 23:13 CHIEF [32] 3:3,9 9:6,8,14, 11 19,23 14:15 96:13,15 115:
build [1] 23:20 capacity [1] 89:6 23 10:1,7 34:10 37:12 38: component [1] 49:7 20
builds [2] 13:22 46:12 Capone [1] 31:3 23 41:3 45:13,16 47:7,12 comprehends [1] 96:10 continuously [4] 3:17 9:
built [2] 12:19,22 capture [5] 52:2 56:13 103: 73:25 74:5,9 76:9 77:3 84: con [1] 54:17 24 77:8 80:2
built-in [1] 3:13 23,23,24 16 86:20 88:17 93:15,18 conceded [2] 58:22 114:2 contraption [1] 32:12
bullet [2] 109:1,2 captures [1] 56:17 97:20 105:9 112:7,10,14 conceding [1] 69:10 contrary [2] 91:7 115:10
bullets [17] 3:17 36:24 39: care [2] 23:2 29:13 117:18 conceivable [2] 62:21 63: control [3] 8:17 27:4 87:24
6,16 40:7 46:14 55:12,15 cared [2] 106:7 110:15 choice [2] 104:19,20 2 conventional [3] 39:5 96:
56:9 62:5 80:2,8,21 94:20 careful [2] 18:12 44:25 choose [1] 88:23 concern [1] 29:2 14 102:2
95:1 111:23 117:11 carefully [1] 21:5 choosing [1] 65:14 concerned [4] 22:15 29:2 conversation [2] 55:12 63:
bump [116] 3:11,25 4:8,23 CARGILL [4] 1:7 3:5 82:7 chose [1] 41:20 48:9 95:3 21
5:2 6:13 7:9,17 8:4,6,11, 103:7 Church [4] 87:22 88:4,6,14 concerning [1] 100:3 convert [3] 23:16 41:23 70:
23 9:3,5 11:20 12:1,18 14: Cargill's [5] 47:17 48:23 Circuit [13] 15:3,13 32:16 concluded [1] 21:7 20
23 15:13,23 16:2 19:19 24: 49:7,10 79:5 34:18 35:2,17,19 36:18,19, concludes [1] 20:20 convict [1] 27:14
9 25:20 26:6,18 29:3 33:8, carnage [1] 49:20 20 37:10 78:17 81:1 concrete [1] 37:9 convicted [1] 27:21
11 34:15 38:1 39:7 40:14 carveout [1] 105:1 Circuit's [2] 35:5 82:16 confronted [1] 32:16 correct [11] 20:22 24:25 25:
41:8 42:11 43:5 44:3 47: Case [25] 3:4 25:5 27:16 28: Circuits [2] 35:15,20 confused [3] 70:15,16 110: 1,12 37:19 42:14 55:18 60:
17,20 48:13,19,20,23 49:9, 24,24 33:24 54:1 66:25 67: circumstance [1] 88:22 16 9 71:19 92:13 101:9
11,22 52:6,20 53:3 54:3,9 6 68:18 69:16 70:3,11 81: circumstances [1] 21:17 confusing [2] 63:22 106:3 correctly [1] 80:4
55:13 56:12 60:19 61:1 62: 6,11 87:23 88:3,4 99:17 circumvent [5] 69:4,5,6,8, Congress [51] 3:20 13:15 corrects [1] 43:15
21,23 63:8,14 66:8,20,23, 106:25 107:1,1 108:10 11 16:13 17:8,20 18:2,13,17, couldn't [3] 105:16,23 108:
24 67:4,5,9,25 70:3 72:12 117:19,20 cite [3] 10:10 25:15 83:21 19 20:9 23:11,12,23 31:16, 6

Heritage Reporting Corporation

Sheet 2 behalf - couldn't
 120
Official - Subject to Final Review
counsel [9] 34:11 47:8 73: defends [1] 44:10 disagree [6] 22:13 35:16, ease [1] 76:23 ET [3] 1:4 49:21 71:21
25 84:17 89:14 92:11 93: defense [1] 24:16 20 78:4 91:16 113:10 easier [1] 85:14 evade [1] 4:20
16 112:8 117:19 define [3] 59:2 94:23 102:9 disagreeing [1] 45:8 easy [12] 4:20 31:15 69:16 evasion [4] 36:16 37:9,10
country [1] 29:22 defined [6] 17:25 33:6,8,11 disagreement [1] 74:18 70:3 81:9,11,18,20 82:1 116:7
couple [1] 31:13 51:19 67:3 disagrees [1] 35:21 85:14 104:15 116:7 even [28] 4:15 14:18 19:22,
course [3] 26:4 41:8 42:19 defines [1] 67:5 discern [2] 90:9 91:14 educated [1] 17:6 25 21:15 22:1 27:19 32:4
COURT [29] 1:1,15 3:10 11: definitely [1] 74:14 discharge [2] 52:17 92:18 effectively [1] 67:25 33:20 36:9 43:6 44:15 64:
3,13 15:21 20:19 23:10 27: definition [14] 3:24 5:21 discrete [2] 94:14,19 effects [1] 39:2 9,10 76:15 77:5 82:8 86:8
16 28:22,23 30:6,6 35:7,21 13:14,21 14:6 15:4 19:6 discuss [1] 44:18 effort [3] 48:25 77:12 90:9 87:7,25 88:19 91:20 92:19
36:19,25 38:13,15 47:13 26:15 47:4,14,18 49:25 51: discussed [1] 82:15 egregious [1] 88:6 97:15 98:12 108:8,8 114:
49:11 50:23 70:12 78:16 23 103:5 disengage [1] 12:24 Eight [1] 55:11 10
83:8 95:23 104:22 116:23 definitions [1] 51:19 disengaging [1] 115:17 Either [5] 5:11,13 60:6 63: evening [1] 29:21
117:14 deliberately [1] 41:21 dispositive [1] 42:21 12 83:7 everybody [4] 26:16 36:14
Court's [2] 5:14 9:15 Democrat [1] 21:23 dispossessed [1] 20:4 ejected [1] 55:16 44:16 62:1
courts [2] 31:25 104:14 demonstrate [1] 45:7 dispute [1] 112:17 electronic [1] 116:3 everyone [5] 16:14 30:7
cover [7] 13:16 31:19 102: depart [1] 113:5 disputed [1] 3:24 eliminate [2] 27:7 115:11 32:11,23 70:6
4,12,17 103:3 112:22 Department [1] 1:20 disqualified [1] 24:6 eliminates [3] 4:9 115:8,9 everything [4] 30:9 48:20
coverage [1] 28:16 depend [2] 59:1 83:11 distance [5] 12:14,16 13:2 eliminating [1] 115:17 79:3,5
covered [8] 35:22 36:14 depended [1] 63:23 26:22,25 Emily [2] 25:4,5 evidence [9] 37:10 38:3,10
42:12,15,19 104:10 116:5, depends [9] 5:18 6:2 13: distinct [1] 27:25 emphasizing [1] 114:10 40:25 98:2,8,8,22 114:4
9 18 39:11,23 48:24 63:5 80: distinction [14] 16:20 54:3,empty [1] 3:18 evident [1] 18:16
covers [1] 46:7 23 95:12 5 60:8 72:25 73:1,5 98:22, enacted [8] 3:21 18:19 19: exact [3] 39:25 49:22 91:12
crack [1] 29:22 Deputy [1] 1:19 23 99:1 101:9,16,17,20 17 45:11 49:15 51:4 116:7 exactly [32] 3:20 7:14 11:
create [1] 5:3 described [2] 8:8 60:19 distinctions [1] 16:10 117:7 10,12,13,16 13:24 15:24
created [3] 27:1,25 117:5 describing [3] 37:18 62:17 distinguish [2] 10:5 95:21 enacting [1] 24:8 19:3 25:1,4 32:20 37:20,
creating [1] 21:20 63:11 distinguishing [1] 81:21 encompass [3] 91:3 102: 24,24 38:7,15 46:9 47:5
creativity [1] 23:19 design [3] 11:19,25 51:14 district [7] 9:15 11:3,13 15: 21 117:16 64:25 82:17 83:5 85:16 90:
crime [4] 22:19,19,20,21 designed [2] 31:2 110:21 21 36:19,25 70:12 encompassed [1] 102:1 12 94:21 97:2,4 102:7 110:
criminal [3] 22:10 28:24 despite [1] 75:1 disturbing [1] 35:1 encompasses [1] 91:23 15,19 115:20 117:12
35:16 destroyed [1] 24:9 divide [1] 86:13 end [2] 72:10 77:4 examination [1] 44:25
criminally [1] 35:6 determine [2] 64:24,25 doctrinal [1] 35:10 energy [8] 5:2 26:19 75:14, example [1] 83:14
curious [1] 104:19 development [1] 114:6 doctrinally [1] 35:14 16 77:2,16,22 78:1 examples [2] 25:16 92:23
current [1] 45:9 device [25] 12:19 25:15 26: doctrine [1] 29:14 enforcement [1] 117:9 except [1] 57:7
currently [1] 96:23 9,18 27:6 47:25 48:3,22 doctrines [2] 23:3 24:22 engaging [1] 116:9 executive [1] 32:1
curved [11] 32:21 33:6 34: 58:2 61:7,19 62:2,3 63:6, dog [1] 29:23 English [2] 17:6 38:18 exert [2] 62:4 79:15
6 63:16 65:6 67:11 69:18 12 65:3 69:16,22 79:8,9 doing [16] 9:20 10:4,9,12 enhanced [1] 85:10 exertion [2] 48:25 77:12
70:1 81:14 82:22,25 83:16 97:17 103:19,20 17:23 28:19 35:6 58:8 65: enjoined [1] 34:21 exist [2] 41:8,15
cycle [5] 5:3,5,7 27:1 115: 116:3 12,13 66:5,6 72:10 84:25 enough [6] 8:10 74:24 75: existed [1] 117:4
21 devices [33] 12:10 21:8 23: 92:9,14 15 76:25 103:25 105:4 existence [1] 98:10
1,6 25:21 27:24 29:4,6,19 DOJ [2] 63:18 82:9 ensnare [1] 28:6 exists [1] 96:23
D 32:20,25 36:17 39:1,2 40: done [5] 21:6 25:17 27:6 ensure [3] 23:4 26:23 48: expect [2] 20:18 42:16
D.C [3] 1:11,20 82:16 15 49:7 62:1,22,23 63:11 30:8 79:12 18 expected [1] 51:22
damage [3] 17:21 18:4 49: 65:3 68:22 77:19 81:2 87: door [1] 84:11 entire [5] 62:3 63:3 68:22 expels [2] 109:1,2
20 6 96:16 101:25 103:7 107: doubt [1] 25:7 93:20 94:10 experiencing [2] 76:16,19
danger [1] 117:10 7 114:6 115:25 117:4,5 down [11] 29:17 33:19 46: entirely [4] 13:10 48:24 79: expert [5] 8:9 9:19 15:20
dangerous [5] 18:14,14 dexterity [1] 87:3 20 61:15 65:20 66:7,7 82: 7 93:10 26:8 27:8
104:25 105:4 112:20 dice [2] 30:14 93:2 3 83:7 116:19,21 entrapment [3] 23:3 24:17 expertise [2] 26:11 27:5
day [3] 34:17 64:6 72:10 difference [8] 7:17 8:19 25: drafted [2] 56:12 95:8 29:14 experts [1] 70:19
de-link [2] 94:11,14 25 59:13 60:5,16 62:14 85: draw [4] 18:16 41:19 60:8 equated [4] 17:9 91:19 92: explain [1] 25:24
deadliest [1] 20:25 24 91:12 6 98:16 explained [3] 8:15 9:17 26:
deal [2] 114:25 115:24 different [24] 6:14,15,21 drawing [4] 98:22,23 101:9, equipped [8] 47:20 48:13 5
dealing [2] 19:16 69:15 12:18 14:10 27:24 28:14 16 52:20 54:10 72:12 95:16 explains [1] 113:14
dealt [1] 20:12 29:12 31:18 33:14 39:2 62: drawn [3] 54:3 101:17,20 97:14,17 explanation [5] 31:16 42:5,
decide [3] 75:24 87:11 104: 7,8 68:13 78:18,23 85:18 drives [1] 10:21 equivalent [1] 68:1 5,6,23
14 90:7 93:11 99:2,20,21 105: during [5] 23:5,6 49:16 77: error [1] 43:16 expulsion [3] 105:19 107:
decision [5] 34:18 35:5 81: 22 107:25 14 89:16 errors [1] 21:10 3 108:3
2 95:22,23 differently [4] 62:2 78:25 dying [1] 49:21 especially [1] 88:13 extend [3] 59:4 83:11 84:2
decisions [2] 37:17 38:14 96:18,20 ESQ [3] 2:3,6,9 extended [2] 81:6 83:2
declined [1] 36:21 directing [2] 16:14 45:21
E ESQUIRE [1] 1:22 extends [1] 47:15
defeat [1] 101:4 direction [7] 12:15,17 13:3 each
[12] 4:6 14:14 37:5 46:
essay [1] 38:8 extent [1] 29:1
defeats [1] 101:5 26:22,25 69:17 74:23 23 76:4 78:18 80:1 81:10 essential [1] 67:22 extremes [1] 81:10
defend [2] 44:15,24 directly [1] 20:12 86:11 100:7 115:14,15 essentially [3] 57:5 61:21,
defendant [1] 70:14 director [1] 43:21 earlier [4] 92:25 100:13,14 23 F
defending [2] 30:6 44:21 disabilities [1] 87:2 111:18 estoppel [2] 23:3 24:17 face [2] 24:10 117:9

Heritage Reporting Corporation

Sheet 3 counsel - face
 121
Official - Subject to Final Review
fact [8] 28:1 29:8 30:1 44: 67:10,22 75:13,17,18 76:2, 79:16,22 115:5,19 11 91:4,20 98:9 16,19 11:9 25:9 49:3,4 52:
20 62:20 63:1 76:15 98:9 7 78:22 79:12 86:1,4 114: found [4] 11:3,13 15:21 51: General's [1] 92:24 23 58:9,11 72:20 74:2,15,
facts [1] 27:18 21 115:21 116:14 18 generally [1] 104:14 16,20,21,25 75:2,21,22,24
factual [1] 9:15 first [11] 3:4,25 5:1 8:13 22: four [1] 93:20 gets [5] 7:15 72:16 79:13 76:5,11,20 78:2 79:15
factually [1] 111:20 14 43:3 47:20 60:11 64:25 Frederick [3] 31:24 83:22 85:18 97:15 handful [1] 21:4
fair [1] 56:17 113:12 116:18 90:15 getting [5] 6:4 67:17 76:2 hang-up [1] 111:4
fall [2] 39:8 47:18 fishing [3] 32:15 41:16 116: friend [9] 7:20 25:19 32:23 95:5,8 happen [3] 13:25 35:15 75:
falls [2] 92:17 104:25 4 33:23 44:15 74:6 114:2 Giffords [1] 39:13 17
false [1] 77:16 fit [1] 54:4 115:10,24 give [9] 13:19 35:9 39:1 42: happened [2] 30:2 82:6
familiar [1] 79:23 fitted [3] 3:11 9:4 51:21 friend's [9] 17:14 18:17 32: 1 51:5 103:2 113:6 116:23 happening [11] 6:23 7:12
far [2] 25:3 51:12 five [1] 24:12 19 37:1 46:17 112:16 113: 117:14 8:2,19,22 10:15,18,20 81:
fast [5] 10:14,19 18:15 32: fix [1] 21:10 11 114:24 115:3 given [1] 101:11 23 94:21 109:16
15 75:10 fixed [1] 39:10 front [4] 3:14 34:7 46:14 61: giving [2] 31:24 69:8 happens [8] 4:3,13 55:3,4
faster [2] 40:10 86:9 fixing [1] 22:23 20 Glock [1] 44:17 93:25 108:3,23 109:21
faulty [1] 84:13 flat [1] 70:13 frustrate [1] 18:18 glove [1] 32:13 hard [5] 81:19,20 82:1,4 87:
February [1] 1:12 FLETCHER [84] 1:19 2:3,9 fulfills [1] 32:8 goals [1] 51:1 25
federal [4] 19:25 20:2 21: 3:6,7,9 5:15,18 6:2,7,15, full [1] 117:15 GORSUCH [19] 19:13 21: harder [3] 74:11 81:11 82:
16 29:17 21 7:2,9,14 8:5,8,21 9:13, fully [8] 13:22 39:19 87:7 11,19 22:5 29:16,20 30:1, 13
feeling [2] 11:7,8 25 10:4,8 11:10,12,14,18, 89:10 91:23 95:17 101:22 11,17,23 41:4 63:19 67:13, harness [1] 26:19
Feinstein [5] 20:10 42:8, 22 12:3,7 14:4,7,9 15:1,10, 102:2 15,20 68:17 92:24 97:21 harnessed [1] 77:25
18 45:2,4 19 17:1 18:10 19:3,13 20: fun [1] 29:21 100:13 harnesses [2] 77:15,21
felon [1] 24:5 17 21:18 22:2,12 24:7 25: function [149] 4:1,3,6,13 5: Gorsuch's [2] 27:11 28:10 harnessing [1] 77:17
felons [1] 19:25 1,4,13 26:4 27:15,22 28:8, 22 7:16 8:12,24 12:22 17: got [9] 22:22 44:25 75:9 80: hear [2] 3:3 80:4
field [1] 87:21 21 29:18,25 30:16,22 31: 2,9,12,22,24 18:3,3,9,22, 1 90:20,21 101:18,18 103: hearing [1] 30:7
Fifth [13] 15:3,13 30:20,20 11 33:5,10 34:19 35:9 36: 25 19:4,9 23:14 26:14 30: 15 heartland [1] 95:2
32:16 34:18 35:2,5 36:17, 8 37:20,24 38:7,15,24 39:9, 12,17,18,24,25 31:4 32:2,6, gotten [2] 28:16 34:20 held [6] 27:16 36:18,20 43:
19,20 37:10 81:1 22 41:11 42:10,24 46:9 47: 19,24 33:1 35:24 36:1,3,4, government [20] 19:18 20: 23 58:9,16
figure [1] 11:15 5 74:16,19 77:14 78:22 79: 15 37:2,19 40:21,22 41:21 20,23 24:4 27:13 28:18 30: helicopters [1] 40:9
final [1] 25:22 9 83:20 90:14 112:11,12, 43:18,19 44:14 45:19,20, 9 34:23 35:20 50:2 66:3 Heller [1] 105:1
find [4] 30:8 87:10 98:13 14 25 46:2,3,7 47:16,21,23 48: 70:17 79:22 85:20 88:7,12 help [8] 12:1,11 13:5 31:10
100:3 Fletcher's [1] 77:5 2,4,5,8,11,15,17 50:1,3,6,8, 96:22 97:12 108:7,10 87:2 101:8,11 105:22
findings [1] 9:15 flip [6] 32:17 33:2 56:24 64: 12,12,13,16 51:9,14,19 52: government's [4] 20:22 helps [1] 13:6
finger [24] 3:13,13 12:11, 13,15 82:21 1,7 54:11 63:24 64:20,22 49:14 50:5 51:3 hesitate [2] 20:22 23:22
20,21 14:23,24 15:7,16,16, flipped [1] 69:21 65:1,23 66:16,17 67:21 69: governs [1] 35:7 high [5] 46:15 55:20 56:2
22 16:1,2 26:8,11,13 62:4 flipping [1] 65:7 22 71:7,17,22,25 72:4,5 78: grade [1] 30:20 67:24 97:8
79:17 80:10,12,12 82:2 87: floor [1] 92:17 6,10,14 82:19 83:22 85:21 grammar [3] 30:20 52:13 himself [1] 52:21
3 97:8 focus [5] 32:5 41:22 50:7 86:8,16 90:24 91:19,25 92: 113:12 history [11] 20:25 37:22 83:
fingers [1] 87:4 74:7 100:24 5,16 93:10,11,14,21,22 94: grammatically [2] 50:7 93: 21 89:14,21,23,25 90:9 91:
fire [62] 3:11,16 4:10 5:1,11, focused [3] 16:20 71:12,15 1,4 95:13 96:21 97:3,10 12 13 98:13 99:4
17 6:9 14:20 15:12 29:22 focusing [1] 15:4 98:4,12,14 99:1,1,13,19 great [1] 103:12 Ho [1] 113:13
33:19 40:19,23,24 47:15, follow-on [1] 100:24 100:12,16,21 101:14,25 ground [2] 49:12 78:24 hold [16] 6:10 7:6 8:10 12:
21 48:3,14 52:10,18 54:10 Footnote [1] 10:10 102:18 103:10 105:14,17, Guedes [1] 82:16 13,15 25:8 26:13 33:19 55:
55:3,4,7,10,21 56:2 58:18 force [5] 49:1 66:6 72:17 18,20,24 106:6 107:16 108: guess [22] 16:18 17:15 20: 2 57:20 58:25 60:3 65:20
60:21,22 61:6 62:15,18 64: 77:7 79:15 1,14,17 109:10 111:9,11, 7 22:12 28:8 45:3 47:1 54: 74:10,11 117:16
7,11,22 66:15,24 67:1,12, forced [5] 29:4 36:21,22 41: 21,24 112:23 113:15,22 5 60:15 68:17 70:8 71:15 holding [17] 9:10 10:2 52:
23,24 68:6 69:19,23 71:1, 17 82:14 114:7 72:6 73:5 81:17 93:19 98: 25 59:4,16,19 60:17,18 61:
23 72:6,13 82:23 84:21 85: forces [1] 82:22 functioned [1] 92:19 18 99:15 104:5 105:12 17,22 62:10,13 66:7 80:25
3,5 86:7 89:9 95:16,17 97: forcing [2] 66:21 77:2 functioning [6] 12:8 13:12 106:21 111:4 83:11 84:2 96:14
9 103:21 106:19 111:8,10 forestalled [1] 20:11 26:1 31:15 46:22 78:25 gun [25] 6:2 9:10 14:1 15:5, holds [3] 12:21 35:22 80:9
firearm [2] 107:7 114:25 forestock [1] 52:22 functions [13] 7:23 13:8 6 26:1,20 29:21 36:24 41: Holy [7] 87:22 88:4,6,8,9,15
firearms [2] 30:4 35:3 forget [1] 109:6 18:21 37:2 43:13 66:14 86: 24 44:14 56:22 57:7 61:20 113:2
fired [12] 7:21 10:21,24 12: forms [1] 102:1 11 89:17 91:9,10 94:25 97: 64:5 66:6 71:18 74:2 85: Honor [6] 62:17 63:11 79:4
23 46:23 47:24 55:21 72: forth [21] 7:21 10:13,17,19 13,16 17 98:5 107:23,24 109:14 81:9 95:15 108:9
16 79:14 86:14 97:15 108: 12:13 16:22 25:10 26:7 37: further [3] 4:16 34:12 84: 110:19 111:23 Honor's [2] 52:16 90:11
14 4 66:8,22 67:1 70:2 74:15 24 gun's [1] 5:2 hooking [1] 26:11
fires [16] 3:25 4:5,24 5:4 7: 75:10,19 76:5,12 82:23 97: future [3] 20:5 31:9 117:5 guns [7] 4:18 19:7 20:4,5 hope [1] 31:8
18 56:22 57:10 60:24 70: 1 107:22 23:5 44:13 73:15 hoped [1] 25:24
22 71:3,3 75:20 80:2 96: forward [41] 3:15,16 4:11 5:
G gymnastics [1] 115:23 horribly [1] 22:24
11 111:2,24 1,7 7:10 9:11,11,19,21,24 GARLAND [2] 1:3 3:5 House [2] 90:21,22
firing [40] 4:4 6:24 7:11 8:6, 10:9,22 11:9 12:16 13:1 gather [1] 11:21 H human [7] 48:24 77:12,12
11,23,25 14:15 15:15 16:2 16:6 26:24 34:8 36:6 43:7 gave [2] 32:1 68:12 half [2] 19:24 21:21 94:14,19 95:4 96:12
19:5 26:6 33:4 34:1,9 46:5 44:5 49:2 52:22 54:2 55:3 geez [1] 81:20 hammer [7] 4:15 32:22 36: hundred [2] 55:12 56:11
48:1,19,20 49:9 52:5 56: 60:21 62:4 72:17 73:7 74: GENERAL [11] 1:4,19 44: 2,5,6,15 37:4 hundreds [1] 5:4
24 58:2 61:10 63:6 66:11 3 75:1,8,15 76:14,20 78:3 22,23 49:6 50:15 63:17 78: hand [29] 3:14 9:9 10:3,13, hung [1] 110:18
Heritage Reporting Corporation
Sheet 4 fact - hung
 122
Official - Subject to Final Review
hypo [1] 68:13 install [1] 13:25 15,24 6:6,13,20,23 7:8,12 100:5,10,15,18,23 101:3,7, likewise [1] 5:8
hypothesize [1] 33:17 instead [6] 23:14 58:7,12, 8:2,7,18 9:6,7,8,14,23 10: 15 102:4,8,12,15,23 103:2, limitations [2] 24:12,13
hypothetical [7] 13:20 46: 24 65:7 69:20 1,7 11:4,11,14,19,23 12:4 9,12,15 104:3,7,17 105:7 line [3] 29:7,8 56:20
11 63:10 79:21 81:7 115: instructions [1] 95:25 13:4 14:5,8,21 15:2,11,18 113:18 lines [1] 88:14
25 116:16 intended [2] 38:5 90:7 16:7,8 17:15 18:10,20 19: keep [8] 5:6,7 12:11 16:1 literal [1] 87:24
hypotheticals [5] 61:15 intending [1] 17:20 12,13 21:11,18,19 22:5 23: 34:1 65:15,21 77:1 literature [1] 38:16
62:16 69:7 82:15 83:3 interchangeably [1] 32:3 25 24:1,18 25:2,5,22,23 27: keeping [2] 66:6,7 litigation [3] 13:15 63:18
interested [1] 30:3 10,11,19 28:5,9,10,17 29: keeps [5] 6:12 7:7 46:19 82:10
I internationally [1] 70:14 16,20 30:1,11,17,23 33:5 56:24 116:20 little [9] 9:9 15:22 32:14 33:
idea [2] 14:12 114:25 interpret [2] 50:23 109:14 34:10,12,13,14 35:1,15,23 key [2] 30:13 93:2 13 76:23 95:4 96:8 103:19
identical [1] 95:19 interpretation [13] 18:18 37:11,12,12,14,21 38:4,12, kicks [1] 111:1 110:12
identified [1] 51:10 21:3 24:24 25:7 30:5 31: 22,23,23,24 39:20 41:2,3,3, kind [8] 15:7 16:9 17:19 18:loaded [1] 68:21
identify [6] 16:14 18:8 49:6 23 36:7 37:1 44:11,16,21 5,6 42:4,11 45:12,13,13,15, 4 56:9 63:21 99:7 110:25 loath [1] 104:14
53:20 73:15 79:9 56:15 87:21 16,16,18 46:25 47:6,7,12 kinds [9] 4:19 16:15,15 36: lobbyist [1] 90:19
identifying [1] 82:1 interpretations [2] 25:19 49:13,19 50:5 51:5,8,12,18, 13 55:14 69:2 110:20 117: long [2] 3:15 6:10
ignore [1] 94:9 116:23 25 52:12,24 53:5,8,11,14, 3,4 longer [4] 65:5 69:19 81:14
illegal [3] 19:16 28:20 35:8 interpreted [2] 20:21 69: 17,23 54:12,16,19,22 55:7, knowledge [1] 76:24 82:25
illustrated [1] 117:13 14 8,11,13,18,22,25 56:15,22 look [18] 9:14,22 10:9 13:
imagine [5] 6:3 13:22 46: interpreting [2] 69:12 110: 57:2,6,12,14,17,25 58:3,7,
L 10 21:2,4 35:25 36:2 49:
12 86:21 104:18 1 12,15,19,22 59:7,10,15,20, land [1] 34:5 25 83:18 85:25 86:3 92:14
imperceptibly [1] 37:4 interpretive [8] 19:22 21: 22,25 60:9,11,15,25 61:3,8, language [13] 17:8 23:13, 94:10 100:11 101:18,19
implausible [2] 116:9,22 14,14,25 22:3,9,17 28:11 11,14,19,25 62:9,12,20 63: 23 31:10,11 41:7,12,13 42: 111:14
implementing [1] 95:25 intransitive [2] 30:21 93: 1,19,20 65:9,11,24 66:2,18 16 87:24 94:2 103:13 113: looked [2] 15:5 114:11
important [4] 15:11 40:19 11 67:3,7,13,15,20 68:7,17 69: 5 looking [6] 13:13 36:10 42:
43:2 44:7 intro [1] 17:18 11 70:5,7,23,25 71:5,9,11, large [2] 34:22 89:6 25 66:4,5 92:8
importantly [1] 44:10 intuitively [1] 13:10 17,20 72:18,21,24 73:14, Las [3] 3:19 20:24 117:13 looks [4] 11:16 38:16,16
imposing [1] 75:8 inventor [1] 46:18 24,25 74:5,9 75:3,5 76:9, Last [1] 104:8 43:4
impossibility [1] 101:12 invoking [1] 104:22 10,18 77:3 78:4,8,20 79:20, Laughter [2] 29:24 103:17 loop [2] 11:24 26:12
impossible [1] 93:13 involved [2] 79:3,5 25 80:7,17,20,24 81:4,15, law [3] 35:16 45:9 117:9 loosely [1] 8:10
inanimate [3] 35:24,25 93: irrational [1] 71:21 17,25 84:16,18,19,23 85:6, lawful [1] 35:19 lost [1] 65:12
9 irresponsible [2] 21:1,7 9,23 86:20,20,21 87:15,16, lawmakers [2] 90:6,6 lot [23] 20:5,17,18 23:18,18,
include [2] 44:8 110:23 isn't [8] 29:9 32:6 34:4 35:1 18,19,20,21 88:16,17,17, laws [1] 117:7 20 26:10 27:4,7 28:6,16
included [1] 32:23 36:1,4,6 43:12 19,24 89:13,20 90:2,2,12, leads [3] 24:19 105:19 107: 35:11 38:25 40:1 41:7,13
including [4] 17:6 20:6,9 issue [6] 21:15 40:15 42:7 16,20 91:6,15,18 92:1,3,7, 2 43:11 44:9 68:8 75:12 86:
25:8 44:4 64:7 104:24 11,24 93:15,18,18,19 94:8 learned [1] 30:21 9 97:24 113:19
inconsistent [4] 4:17 52:
issued [3] 40:5 43:21 44:2 95:10 96:1 97:18,20,20,22, least [1] 104:25 lots [2] 14:3 31:18
13 96:7 114:3 items [1] 19:15 23 98:18,21,25 99:6,15,18, leave [1] 14:1 LV [1] 116:2
incorrect [1] 111:21 itself [8] 29:15 31:5 33:8, 25 100:5,10,13,15,18,23 ledge [2] 3:13 12:20
independent [2] 47:19 11 50:22 93:8 113:17 114: 101:3,7,15 102:4,8,12,15, left [2] 74:20 75:21 M
114:8 12 23 103:2,9,12,15 104:3,7, left-handed 75:22
[1] M-14 40:5,18
[2]
indication [1] 44:22 17 105:7,9,9,11,12 106:3,5, legal [7] 23:7 27:20 28:7 M-16 [10] 6:5 7:3,5 36:3 40:
indications [2] 36:10 38: J 10,14,17,20,24 107:5,10, 35:13 43:11 44:9 87:13 4,17 64:8,13 65:14,16
20 JACKSON [88] 16:8 17:15 15,21 108:12,16,19,22,25 legality [1] 87:6 M6 [1] 64:6
indistinguishable [1] 79: 18:10,20 19:12 45:17,18 109:4,7,9,18,22,25 110:4,9, legalize [1] 25:20 machine [6] 41:23 53:6,6,7,
2 46:25 47:6 51:5,8,12,18,25 11,14 111:13,16,18,19 112: legislation [4] 13:16 20:11 9 110:25
individuals [1] 49:16 52:12,24 53:5,8,11,14,17, 1,4,7,10,15 113:18 114:14 45:6,7 machinegun [55] 5:13,16,
ineffective [1] 24:24 23 54:12,16,19,22 55:7,8, 117:18 legislative [13] 19:22 21: 17,19 6:8,25 7:3 11:6 12:5
inference [1] 91:12 11,18,22,25 59:15 70:5,7, 12 37:22 83:21 89:14,16, 13:13,21,23 14:6,18 18:15
informal [3] 43:10 44:1,8 24,25 71:5,9,11,20 72:18, K 21,23,25 90:9 91:13 98:13 23:16,21 25:12 27:18 33:
ingenuity [1] 23:18 21,24 73:14 79:20,25 80:7, KAGAN [53] 11:4,11 38:23, 99:4 18 37:6 39:5 40:4 41:24
inherently [1] 73:6 17,20,24 81:4,15,17,25 24 39:20 41:2 55:13 56:15, legislator [3] 45:5 86:22, 43:12,17 44:19,20 46:16,
initial [2] 4:22 6:16 105:11,12 106:3,5,10,14, 22 57:2,6,12,14,17,25 58:3, 24 22 47:14 54:2 57:1,3,19
initially [3] 43:7 49:15 83: 17,20,24 107:5,10,15,21 7,12,15,19,22 59:7,10,20, legislators [2] 90:22,23 58:23 60:1,12,13 61:17 65:
16 108:12,16,19,22,25 109:4, 22,25 60:9,11,15,25 61:3,8, legislature [1] 51:1 17,18 68:15 70:17,18 72:9
initiate [4] 15:15,19 33:4 9,18,22,25 110:4,9,11,14 11,14,19,25 62:9,12,20 63: less [1] 21:15 80:18 82:24 83:25 84:9 96:
34:8 111:13,16,18,19 112:1,4 1 68:7 69:11 75:3,5 76:10, lethal [1] 56:8 14 107:1 109:17 112:19,20
initiates [9] 5:12 7:10 8:25 JONATHAN [3] 1:22 2:6 18 93:18,19 94:8 95:10 96: letter [2] 43:9 83:19 machinegun's [1] 37:18
14:20 48:1 58:2 61:9 63:6 47:10 1 97:18 114:14 letters [3] 21:4 44:2,11 machineguns [20] 3:22,23
114:21 judge [3] 70:12 88:11 113: Kagan's [1] 109:7 letting [1] 66:8 4:20 5:8 7:4 18:13 19:20
input [5] 16:4 32:9 114:13 13 Karl [2] 31:24 83:21 levels [1] 22:13 25:18 27:23 28:2 29:9 38:
115:5,8 judgment [2] 86:25 87:10 KAVANAUGH [42] 23:25 lever [12] 32:21 33:6 34:6 1 44:5 49:20 60:7 70:14
inside [5] 63:25 64:4 71:18 judicial [1] 34:20 27:10,19 28:5,9,17 41:5,6 63:16 65:6 67:11 69:18 70: 81:3 86:22 87:8 110:23
85:17 97:13 jury [1] 70:15 42:4,11 45:12 97:22,23 98: 1 81:14 82:23 83:1 116:13 machinery [1] 15:6
insofar [2] 18:25 70:9 Justice [334] 1:20 3:3,10 5: 18,21,25 99:6,15,18,25 liken [1] 30:12 made [7] 19:16 24:7 33:16

Heritage Reporting Corporation

Sheet 5 hypo - made
 123
Official - Subject to Final Review
34:23 97:24 100:13 104:8 mechanistically [1] 111:5 mode [1] 32:7 4,17 59:19 60:21 62:15,17 one [95] 4:1,6,10,24 5:22 6:
magazine [3] 3:18 89:3,5 members [3] 20:9 40:5 modification [1] 70:8 64:24 73:5 78:12 84:9 92: 9,18 8:12,25 9:18 11:2 14:
magazines [1] 89:6 117:8 modifications [2] 110:6, 14,15 115:17 19 16:21 19:10 20:19 23:4,
mailed [1] 70:13 mens [2] 27:11,13 17 needed [1] 88:21 4 25:22 27:25 28:10 31:8,
main [1] 20:19 mentally [1] 9:20 modified [1] 111:10 needs [3] 75:19 84:6 91:22 22,24 32:16 33:15,22 36:
maintain [4] 5:9,10 6:11 mention [1] 29:3 modify [1] 110:23 neither [5] 57:15 60:7 61:5 17 39:7,18 42:23 44:10,21
34:8 mentioned [2] 29:5 92:25 moment [1] 16:9 63:17 67:9 47:3,15,21 48:11,14 50:1,
maintaining [2] 49:3 74:7 merely [1] 83:5 momentarily [1] 10:23 never [2] 63:17 91:8 11 52:17 54:6,10 57:9 58:
maintains [2] 3:15 5:12 MERRICK [1] 1:3 month [1] 24:13 new [8] 29:9 34:16,17 38:8 5,8,10,15,18,24 59:16 60:2
majority [1] 39:17 metal [13] 32:21 34:6 63:16 morning [1] 3:4 41:18 42:15 82:24 83:12 61:16 63:14 64:1,16 66:15
man [1] 8:5 65:6 67:11 69:18 70:1,13, most [6] 18:11 36:7 44:9 next [1] 29:22 67:5 69:9,16 70:21 71:4,
manage [1] 12:12 18 71:13 81:14 82:22 83:1 64:11 113:25,25 nobody [1] 56:18 23 72:2,3,6,14 77:11 78:12
manipulation [1] 4:16 MICHAEL [1] 1:7 mostly [1] 43:23 noire [1] 87:22 80:17,18 86:7,13,17 94:1,3,
manual [23] 4:9 8:6,23 14: middle [2] 81:11 82:14 motion [9] 5:11 6:16,16,18, non-conventional [1] 69: 13 95:5,13 96:15 97:9,14,
13 19:8 27:4,4,7 40:23 41: might [19] 14:22 20:18 24: 22 10:11 66:22 75:19 98:6 5 14 99:18 101:16 105:13
1 42:3 46:6 48:18,21 52: 20 31:8,8 35:17 51:1 79: motor [6] 48:22 65:8 69:24 non-mechanical [9] 44:3 106:7 107:17 108:13 109:
21 72:14 77:9 79:6,18 111: 23 84:1 86:24 94:15,16,17, 82:21,22 83:6 47:17 48:23 49:11 77:24 2,3,13 111:2,8,11,24
25 115:5,8,11 18 103:24 107:18,19,21,24 motorized [3] 65:3 69:15 79:6,10 84:14 103:6 ones [4] 3:18 44:4 54:24
manually [3] 4:7 12:25 115: military [3] 40:6 64:7,9 81:2 non-shooting [7] 49:2 52: 73:16
18 million [5] 19:24,24 21:21, mounted [1] 40:9 23 74:20,25 75:2,24 78:2 only [24] 20:2 45:23 47:15,
manufacturer [1] 43:11 22 80:13 move [7] 10:16,19 18:23 non-trigger [2] 9:9 74:2 21 48:5,9 50:7,13,20 52:17,
many [17] 4:10 5:8 19:8,11, mind [2] 81:19 83:17 25:9 26:21 33:16 74:25 none [2] 41:15 49:5 19,25 67:2 76:6 78:12 89:
18 20:14 25:16 30:4 31:25 minute [7] 5:4 10:17 19:14 moved [2] 16:1 31:5 nonshooting [1] 72:19 3 92:7 97:14 105:13 106:7
38:19 39:6 50:10 52:5 86: 39:16 40:7,14,16 movement [15] 4:21 6:19 nor [2] 61:6 67:9 108:13,22 113:8 116:8
10 89:7 113:9 117:11 missing [1] 73:11 7:19 12:13 16:21 17:3 46: normal [2] 41:24 60:24 open [1] 29:22
March [1] 24:10 mistakes [1] 20:22 4 56:3,4 106:10,13,23 112: normally [1] 35:25 opening [1] 91:5
market [1] 11:25 misunderstand [1] 64:18 24 114:8 115:19 nothing [13] 9:20 48:6 63: opens [1] 37:8
master [1] 75:12 misunderstanding [1] 64: movements [6] 4:9 7:22 14 66:12 68:5 77:10,12,25 operate [3] 18:24 80:14
matter [10] 1:14 16:11 24: 20 27:7 40:24 41:1 46:6 79:18,18 86:18 96:25 104: 110:24
11 53:24 54:7 64:3,3 73:1 MITCHELL [204] 1:22 2:6 moves [8] 4:14,15 7:20 12: 21 operated [1] 71:14
87:6,13 13:4 25:24 47:9,10,12 49: 14,16 26:7,24 116:19 notice [3] 21:13 28:12,15 operates [5] 46:1 76:12,14
matters [8] 16:24 17:17 53: 18 50:4 51:7,11,17,24 52: moving [24] 9:10 10:3,13 notion [2] 49:22 70:16 110:19 111:5
24 54:8 64:3 77:4 92:21 11,15 53:2,7,9,12,16,22 54: 32:21 36:15 45:22 46:20 NRA [5] 17:7 31:25 36:12 operating [3] 70:21 107:23,
106:7 8,14,18,21 55:6,9,17,20,24 53:6,10 56:7 69:24 74:12, 37:16 38:2 25
max [1] 40:2 56:10,16,21,25 57:4,9,13, 15,17 76:5,11,20 82:2,2 83: number [8] 20:9 22:13 25: operation [4] 17:25 46:4
maximize [1] 28:15 15,22 58:1,4,10,14,17,21 6 107:22 114:18 115:1 15 39:10 56:17 86:14,15 72:3 110:16
maximum [1] 39:14 59:1,9,14,18,21,24 60:4,10, 116:20 94:12 operational [1] 51:14
McDonald [1] 90:3 14,20 61:2,5,9,13,18,24 62: much [12] 39:6,12,16,16,20 operations [2] 16:11 51:
mean [25] 13:11,15 16:12 8,11,14,25 63:4,19,20 64: 40:10,10 44:25 60:10 73:6
O 22
17:12 21:16 25:15 27:23 19 65:22,25 66:12,23 67:5, 75:25 84:10 Obama 42:8,17
[2]
operator [3] 80:3,7,9
36:16 38:18 59:7 62:1 71: 8,14,16,19 68:4 69:10 70:6, multi-shot [2] 5:12 14:20 object [10] 32:6,7 35:24 36: opinion [2] 82:16 88:10
25 74:10,10 75:6 90:25 93: 23 71:1,7,10,19 72:11,19, multiple [16] 6:19 7:18 14: 1 93:4,9,12,14 100:22 101: opposed [3] 50:2 56:2,7
20 94:2 95:12 96:1 97:6 23 73:13,20,24 74:4,8,14 16 36:24 37:2 40:23,23,25 13 opposite [3] 11:9 91:12 98:
100:19 105:18 107:15 115: 75:4,11 76:17,21 78:7,9 42:2 43:13,18 46:5,6 56: obvious [1] 31:2
19
7 79:1,24 80:6,16,19,22,25 23 109:6 111:23 obviously [6] 14:18 40:8
oral [5] 1:15 2:2,5 3:7 47:
meaning [8] 23:24 26:6 38: 81:5,16,24 82:4 84:19,22 multitude [1] 96:11 42:15 93:6 99:16 101:8 10
10 45:10 46:4 90:10 105: 85:1,8,12 86:6 87:1 88:5, must 47:22,23 48:3,17,
[9] occur [3] 69:24 75:18 97:
order [6] 34:8 39:23 42:1
14 117:15 23 89:2,19,24 90:8,13,18 25 78:1 79:14 111:25 116: 16 80:14 113:10 115:24
means [18] 13:6 17:3,4 18: 91:1,11,17 92:2,5,10,13 93: 18 off-ramp [1] 104:16 ordinary [2] 54:1 98:3
23 26:17 27:2,2 34:24 35: 17,19 94:6 95:6,11 96:1,19 myself 96:2
[1] offense [1] 24:12 original [2] 40:13 90:10
16 64:23 75:3,6 83:23 94: 97:19 98:7,20,23 99:3,9,16, offered [2] 84:10 88:12 originally [1] 110:21
11 98:15 99:21 115:6,8 24 100:2,8,11,16,19 101:2,
N offering [1] 25:20 oscillating [1] 83:4
meant [7] 3:21 67:21 69:1 6,10,21 102:6,11,14,16,20, narrow [2] 31:13 50:2 officers [1] 117:9 other [34] 3:14 4:19 6:25
88:1 99:2 113:3 114:7 25 103:4,10,14,18 104:6, nation's [2] 20:25 117:9 officials [1] 32:1 10:1 13:9 20:5 23:10 24:6
mechanical [2] 44:13 114: 13,21 105:8 106:2,4,9,12, natural [3] 113:6,14 117:15 often [2] 6:7 20:20 29:4 31:25 35:19 36:13 38:
7 15,18,22 107:4,6,14,20 nature [12] 63:10 66:11 67: Okay [24] 7:8 47:6 53:11 55: 20 39:5 42:6 44:1 53:17
mechanically [1] 63:25 108:8,13,18,21,24 109:2,8, 17 82:5,11 84:5,25 85:15 8,19 57:6,25 58:3,7 60:15 54:7 57:10 58:9,11 62:16
mechanics [7] 38:25 51: 15,20,23 110:3,7,10,13 86:1,4,5 96:23 67:20 71:5,10 72:18,24 80: 63:10 64:17 72:25 74:6
15 98:5 107:23,24 110:2 111:6,15,17,20 112:2,6,9 nearly [1] 20:13 24 87:20 92:11 99:18 101: 102:13 103:24,25 105:25
112:25 Mm-hmm [19] 11:18 30:16 necessarily [3] 18:23 106: 15 104:8 106:2,14,20 107:6 109:5 115:25 117:4
mechanism [12] 4:25 8:17 49:18 51:17,24 53:22 58: 12 114:17 old [3] 21:24 31:1 42:16 others [4] 36:12 73:18 74:
9:2 12:9 26:17 69:9 85:11, 21 59:14 60:14 61:2,13,18 necessary [7] 49:9 57:11, old-time [1] 64:13 12 107:24
13,16 86:4,19 115:7 62:11,25 67:19 76:17 81: 13 61:6 62:19 67:9 79:11 Once [6] 4:25 31:5 45:23 otherwise [2] 19:23 68:20
mechanistic [1] 110:15 24 110:13 111:19 need [16] 8:3 15:7 45:7 58: 46:14 52:3 53:1 out [17] 3:17 11:16 30:8 46:
Heritage Reporting Corporation
Sheet 6 made - out
 124
Official - Subject to Final Review
14 62:6 80:8,21 86:9 87: phrases [1] 98:16 pretty [3] 16:3 59:23 87:25 purpose-built [1] 26:19 reaction [9] 20:8 105:19
11 94:12 95:1,13 98:9 105: pick [1] 27:11 prevail [1] 78:11 purposed [1] 88:13 107:2,18 108:2 109:1,12
21 109:13 114:4 116:1 piece [4] 16:4 45:6 70:18 prevents [1] 104:22 purposes [2] 40:11 50:25 111:1,22
outside [1] 47:18 71:13 previously [2] 28:1,13 push [38] 4:11 5:19,19 7:10 reacts [1] 32:11
over [7] 29:7,8 32:18,18 64: pieces [2] 70:8,13 primary [1] 7:15 8:13 9:19 15:18 16:5 32: read [14] 16:12 17:11,22 29:
15 77:8 111:5 piston [1] 32:14 Principal [1] 1:19 13 33:2 34:1 43:6 44:5 55: 17 37:8 91:22 96:9 105:16,
overarching [1] 50:25 place [4] 9:14 12:21 26:13 principle [1] 67:18 3 56:23 57:8,20 58:4,24 20 108:6,9,19 113:8,14
overcome [3] 74:24 76:24 34:5 prior [3] 21:3 24:5 44:21 59:25 60:1,2,21 62:15,17 readily [1] 111:7
97:12 places [1] 3:12 prison [1] 20:2 73:7 75:15 91:3,24 94:16, reading [13] 21:9 23:11 24:
overcomes [2] 10:22 75: plain [1] 113:5 probably [4] 34:19 76:21 22 98:10,24 99:20 101:23 21,25 32:19 38:11 72:7 96:
16 plastic [1] 15:22 103:22 104:1 102:4,6 115:16 4 113:6,11 114:3 116:24
own [3] 46:20 79:15,15 plausible [3] 46:24 109:17 probative [1] 45:10 push-operated [1] 57:19 117:1
owners [1] 29:21 116:6 problem [8] 21:5 27:25 29: pushed [1] 92:20 reads [2] 52:14 106:8
please [3] 3:10 47:13 51:7 5,11 31:2 50:4 96:21 97: pushes [6] 12:23 34:8 46: real [1] 81:21
P point [21] 13:5 28:10 29:25 11 13,19 80:8,11 Really [6] 16:4 17:25 31:22
packed [1] 20:17 40:2 45:3,19 62:3 63:17, problems [2] 41:18 87:3 pushing [23] 9:11,20,24 10: 32:15 75:9 85:6
PAGE [4] 2:2 46:11 57:18 18 74:16 82:9 85:22 91:5 process [7] 20:1 26:20 27: 9 15:20 58:11,24 59:13,16, reason [12] 23:8,9 24:6 28:
113:13 96:8 97:24 98:1 100:14,25 3 48:21,24 77:13 89:17 18 60:17,18 61:16,20 62:9, 12 31:16,20 42:20,21 73:5
pages [1] 9:16 101:18 109:7 115:3 produce [3] 52:18 86:16 12 63:13 76:13 77:1,11 80: 86:24 87:5 98:17
Palsgraf [1] 107:12 pointed [1] 114:4 95:4 17 82:3 115:5 reasonable [1] 37:7
part [9] 22:8 25:13 28:12 pointing [4] 37:23 38:9,13, produces [3] 48:11 52:17 put [7] 5:25 21:16 32:13 43: reasonably [1] 73:9
33:25 34:7 43:20 74:2 107: 13 94:20 2 61:4 65:15 109:9 reasoning [1] 43:12
8 109:5 points [2] 74:11 98:9 prohibit [9] 3:21 17:20 54: puts [1] 79:22 reasons [6] 28:10 31:13
particular [4] 16:16 59:5 policy [4] 87:6,14 95:18,20 25 56:6,14 69:1 73:3,10,17 putting [2] 18:3 110:6 47:19 50:10 95:18,20
73:9 90:6 polls [1] 39:3 prohibited [6] 16:17 21:8 REBUTTAL [3] 2:8 112:10,
particularly [1] 45:9 positing [1] 105:22 54:6 68:9 73:17,18
Q 12
parts [7] 3:24 19:6 23:15 position [8] 19:19 25:6 42: prohibiting [1] 55:1 QP [1] 22:8
recognize [2] 35:13 44:8
41:23 44:13 114:18 115:1 prohibition [6] 3:22 27:20 qualifies 70:22
[1]
14 43:23 70:10 83:10,15 recognized [1] 41:25
pass [1] 13:15 105:2 28:7 49:17 54:20 56:1 qualify [2] 21:24 57:21
recognizes [3] 32:24 44:
passed [1] 45:6 possessed [2] 22:25 34: projectile [2] 105:20 107:3 quarter 19:24 21:21
[2]
16 116:2
past [3] 21:22 23:1 77:2 15 propels 111:23
[1] question [29] 6:4 7:5 13:9,
recoil [23] 5:2 7:13 8:17 10:
pause [2] 42:20,21 possessing [2] 23:5 35:3 properly [1] 21:12 14 24:21 25:23 28:25 52: 21 12:23 25:9 26:19 66:9,
people [32] 17:9 19:24 21: possibility [3] 62:21 63:2 property [1] 14:1 16 53:15,18 59:4 66:13 70: 22 74:23 75:14,16,20 76:
22 22:25 24:15 25:17 28:3, 84:12 proposed [1] 17:7 12 72:25 76:8 77:4 78:19, 12,14,14,24 77:2,15,22,25
6 29:5,16,19 30:3,4,10,15, possible [5] 26:6 27:3 64: prosecute [2] 22:25 24:4 21 80:23 82:17 83:10 84:6 79:13 115:15
18,23 31:3 34:15 35:2 37: 7 84:2 103:6 prosecuted 20:3 23:5
[5] 86:10 100:24 104:8,24 recoils [2] 76:1 77:24
15 39:17 41:25 49:21 87:2, possibly [2] 30:9 51:6 24:14 34:18 35:6 105:3 106:3 111:18 record [1] 99:11
3 89:21 98:14 99:11 101:8 post [1] 15:22 prosecuting [1] 27:12 questioning [1] 100:14 red [2] 33:16,23
113:9,20 prosecution [2] 22:11 24: questions 5:14 27:12
[5]
posture [2] 22:1,3 reel [3] 32:15 41:16 116:4
per [6] 5:4 47:21 66:16 86: powder [1] 107:9 10 67:17 97:24 104:15 refer [3] 48:5 50:19 113:15
8 97:9 108:14 power [2] 22:16,18 prosecutions [1] 35:12 quick [1] 97:7 referred [2] 41:6 98:4
perceives [1] 75:7 powerful [2] 38:20 40:25 protected 104:11
[1] quickly [3] 43:15 89:9 107: referring [1] 31:21
perfect [2] 17:11 113:22 practical [2] 24:11 35:10 prototype [1] 43:8 22 refers [1] 112:24
perfectly [3] 90:4 113:14 practically [1] 35:11 prove [1] 28:18 quite [3] 15:10 59:11 88:5
reflected [1] 21:3
114:23
performs [1] 49:8
practice [4] 34:25 39:16 proves [1] 91:12 R regard [1] 112:25
40:3 75:12 provide [1] 103:4 radar [1] 56:18 Register [2] 21:16 29:17
perhaps [1] 50:25 precedent [2] 35:18,19 public [3] 28:15 90:10 117: range [2] 40:6,17 regular [1] 8:9
period [1] 77:8 precisely [2] 23:17 94:25 8 regularly [1] 70:20
permissible [2] 36:18,20 rapid [4] 70:22,24 71:1 97:
preferable [1] 72:7 published [1] 38:8 16
related [1] 33:15
permit [1] 89:1 premise [1] 52:15 pull [40] 4:4,7,22 5:20 6:9 7: rapidly [1] 71:3 relatively [1] 43:10
permits [1] 65:21 present [1] 34:16 6 15:7 17:10 23:14 30:24 release [6] 4:8 12:25 36:2,
person [13] 14:19 28:19 31: rate [16] 39:9 40:24 46:15
presented [1] 78:19 31:17 32:2 33:7,18 37:17
55:20 56:2 67:24 68:6 80:
5 115:13,18
14 46:5 51:20,22 65:13,13 preserving [1] 87:5 41:22 50:17,18,20,21 52:8 released [1] 19:2
75:14 82:3 88:20,25 89:1 18 84:21 85:3,5 86:7 95:
president [5] 17:7 31:25 73:8 83:23 89:8,18 90:25
16,17 97:9 103:21
releases [4] 4:15 46:19 80:
perspective [4] 9:18 11:1 36:12 37:16 38:2 91:4,18 92:6 94:16 98:15, 3 107:8
15:5 73:2 rate-of-fire [1] 40:20
press [2] 3:14 7:1 24 99:12,20 101:23 102:5,
rates [2] 40:19 89:9 releasing [3] 26:20 32:22
Petition [3] 9:16 15:14 113: presses [2] 5:1 80:3 6 107:19 113:21 115:13 37:4
13 rather [11] 20:13 33:21 50:
pressure [29] 3:16 5:7,10, pulled [2] 91:25 92:20 24 63:13 73:8 74:11 91:3,
relevant [3] 27:15 73:5 94:
Petitioners [6] 1:5,21 2:4, 25 6:11 10:2,23 11:5,8,9 pulling [5] 11:6 15:15 64: 2
10 3:8 112:13 24 98:5 99:11 116:13
49:4 54:1,2 61:4 62:4 65: 17 65:6 113:25
rationale [6] 81:5 83:2,23 reliance [5] 21:22 23:1 28:
phrase [14] 48:4 50:6,19 19 74:7,22,24 75:1,8,21,23, pulls [3] 7:25 32:14 116:14 3 35:17 90:15
88:9 91:18 94:10 98:4 99: 84:13,14 88:11
25 76:4 77:7 79:16 96:13, purpose [8] 12:20 16:24 rea [2] 27:11,13 relief [1] 34:20
12,20 100:6,7,12,25 101: 15 18:16 32:8,8 53:25 73:16 remain [2] 86:18 87:13
11 reach [2] 86:24 101:24
presumably [1] 93:24 90:1 remains [1] 85:16
Heritage Reporting Corporation
Sheet 7 out - remains
 125
Official - Subject to Final Review
remarks [1] 77:15 rounds [8] 14:3 18:5 19:1 45:2,4 similar [4] 83:20 87:7 89: spins [1] 32:17
render [3] 19:23 24:23 27: 40:14,16 42:2 88:21 89:3 sense [12] 6:18 17:11 25: 10 103:25 spirit [2] 67:16 88:8
18 rubber [1] 26:12 11 37:22 39:1 49:14 53:19 simply [4] 3:12 85:14 86:3 split [1] 78:17
repeated [3] 19:8 52:19 76: rule [18] 19:22,22 21:12,14, 54:23 73:15 96:7,9 113:23 96:24 spoke [1] 89:14
1 14 22:1,4,9,17,20 24:8 26: sensible [1] 68:19 simultaneously [1] 49:3 spoken [1] 114:21
repeatedly [2] 49:1 85:15 6 28:11 34:16,17,21,21 78: sentence [2] 93:7 103:2 since [7] 17:9 31:23 35:3 spontaneously [1] 93:25
replace [2] 15:21 50:16 16 separate [5] 4:12 7:24,25 43:23 44:24 102:17 114:5 spray [2] 56:9 117:10
reply [5] 10:11 22:6 33:13 rulemaking [2] 29:14 30:2 14:13 47:19 single [46] 4:1 5:11,22 8:24 spring [6] 43:5 44:4 48:22
34:2 44:18 ruling [1] 43:21 separately [1] 37:5 14:9,14 19:9 31:3 32:22 77:18 84:4 116:12
represent [1] 39:25 runs [1] 3:17 sequence [12] 4:5 5:12 8: 42:3 43:19 45:20 46:4,4 springs [1] 44:12
represented [1] 40:15 14,14 9:1 16:2,5 19:5 33:4 47:16 48:10,15 50:6,18 52: stable [1] 13:7
representing [1] 24:3
S 34:9 114:21 116:15 8,16 53:3 54:11 60:23 66: standard [1] 64:7
Republican [1] 21:23 same [42] 6:17 8:19,21 12:
series [1] 43:25 16 71:7 72:15 78:9,14 85: standing [3] 78:13,15 107:
require [2] 5:9 28:18 4 13:8 14:22 15:8,24 16: seriously [1] 112:17 2,21 89:18 90:25 94:1,3 13
required [3] 14:13,14 33: 23 18:9,22,24,24,25 20:23 Sessions [1] 44:23 95:13 96:12,21 103:10 Staples [3] 27:16,17 28:23
18 27:3,8 31:24 32:2,21 34:5 set [1] 65:6 108:15,16,20,23 111:9 112: start [6] 19:5 105:18 107:2,
requires 57:19 [1] 42:2 46:20 49:22 52:7,9 sets [1] 46:18 23 117:11 17 109:11 116:14
requiring [1] 63:13 55:14 57:7 58:19 59:20 61: several [2] 56:16 74:1 sit [1] 29:17 starting [1] 16:5
reset [9] 10:24 29:4 36:22, 23 73:18 76:3 77:7 80:18 shackle [2] 23:8,9 situation [8] 34:14 59:6 63: starts [4] 4:4 8:13 65:8 111:
22 41:17 47:22 82:14 85:2 85:16 94:25 97:2,4 98:15 shoot [12] 5:21 19:8 40:6,9, 15 73:7 81:13 82:7 108:4, 22
116:3 112:18 117:6 15 43:18 44:6 66:8 88:21 5 state [1] 104:4
resets 26:23
[1] satisfies [1] 13:21
89:2 95:10 109:13 situations [2] 83:12 88:2 statement [2] 90:15,19
resolve [1] 83:9 satisfy [2] 3:23 14:5 shooter [81] 3:12,15 4:4,7, skill [1] 39:12 statements [4] 89:16 90:
respect [6] 16:10 24:23 45: saw 88:14
[1]
10,16 5:1,6,9 7:25 10:12, skilled [1] 39:14 21,21,23
4 77:23,25 115:23 saying [27] 19:23 22:22 28:
16,18 12:11,12,25 16:4 17: slew [1] 24:22 STATES [10] 1:1,16 57:5
respectable [1] 87:12 2,14 37:25 38:5 45:24 46: 4,13 19:5,10 31:21 39:12, slide [2] 13:1 97:1 59:5 65:4 70:2,10 81:1,12
respectfully [1] 78:16 3,8,21 54:3 58:23 61:3 66: 14 46:13,18 48:6,7,7,16,25 slides [1] 66:25 84:3
Respondent 1:8,23 2:7 3,19 68:18 69:3 71:14 72:
[6] 50:8,12,14,20,20 52:20 57: sliding [1] 12:22 stationary [2] 15:17 26:8
4:12 5:5 47:11 3 84:24 91:8 94:23 99:19 20 65:20 66:5,13 69:18 72: slightly [1] 80:10 statute [82] 12:6 16:12,13
Respondent's [1] 7:15 100:13 106:6,24 110:7 15,16 74:21 75:7,9,11,22, sloppy [1] 99:11 17:8,23 18:8 19:17 20:14,
responding 7:24 [1] says [13] 4:12 5:5 7:20 39:
24 76:4,10,13,15,19,22 77: slow [2] 9:22 10:11 21 21:9,25 22:22 24:12,13
response [6] 33:13,16 72: 13 43:12,16 45:25 50:24 11 78:1 79:7,12,14 85:14 slower [3] 39:17,21 40:3 31:1 34:3,24 35:22 37:8
15 76:1 78:3 97:23 51:9 52:4 55:4 68:5 71:18 89:18 91:10 92:9,14,16,19 small [1] 68:24 40:20,21 41:20 45:21 46:
rest [2] 71:16 109:6 scale [1] 107:13 93:24 111:25 113:1,16,23, solely [1] 78:5 24 48:9 49:9,15 50:16,17,
resting [1] 63:3 Scalia's [1] 87:22 24 114:9,13,20 115:12,18 Solicitor [9] 1:19 49:6 50: 24 51:3,9 52:5,14 53:19,25
restored 111:8 [1] scenario [2] 57:24 79:21 116:14 117:10 15 63:16 78:10 91:4,20 92: 54:9,16,19 56:10,13 68:5,7,
rests [1] 83:19 scope [1] 45:9 shooter's [4] 4:22 9:18 11: 24 98:9 9,9,11,15,21,23 69:11 70:
result [7] 8:1 52:4,10 55:14 score 19:14
[1]
1 98:6 Somebody [2] 14:2 46:12 19 71:2 72:1 73:2,21,23
73:19 86:1 105:22 screen [1] 56:18
shooters [1] 89:7 someone [9] 8:3 13:22 27: 87:24 90:10 91:2,14,22 92:
resulting [1] 14:15 sear [1] 36:5 shooting [11] 3:19 6:12 7: 8,12,14 32:11 35:17 97:7 21 93:21 95:7,9 96:9,10,20
results [3] 6:19 108:2 109: Second
[12] 4:23 10:14 18:
7 14:3 20:24,25 49:4 93: 98:22 102:17 105:17 106:8 108:
12 5 24:18 32:4 48:13 60:12 23,25 94:3 117:13 somewhere [1] 30:20 6,9 109:5,7 110:1,17 111:7
revisit [1] 28:23 104:8,11,11,23 113:18 shoots [2] 18:15 62:6 sorry [22] 10:17 36:19 53:5 113:8 116:5,24 117:3
revisited [1] 44:23 seconds [1] 3:20 short [1] 117:2 55:7,11 67:15 69:25 70:23 statutes [3] 24:24 96:4
3:11,14,16,25 4:5, see 18:2 78:24 88:3 92:
[8]
rifle [38] shot [51] 4:1,6,8,24 5:1,22 71:5,6,9 85:8 87:17,18,19 104:4
14,23 6:5 8:10 9:4 10:21 23 93:5 98:8 99:10 108:10 6:9 7:21 10:20,24 12:22 92:2 93:17 98:20 106:1,2, statutory [11] 3:24 5:21 19:
12:13,24 26:7,21,24 34:7 seeing [1] 37:9
14:14 36:24 40:14 46:23 17 110:10 6 42:16 47:14,18 69:13 87:
47:20 48:13 49:2 52:20,22 seem 13:6 68:20 98:14
[4]
47:3,16,21,22,23 48:12,14 sort [4] 37:9 51:13 72:10 21 103:5,12 104:16
54:10 67:12 72:12,13 75: 106:5 52:17 54:11 66:15 71:4,24 81:19 stay [1] 36:21
20 85:19 86:15 89:8 95:16 seems 13:12 51:25 61:
[7]
72:2,6,14,15 79:13 85:2 sorts [3] 27:24 29:3 38:17 staying [1] 16:23
96:24 97:1,6,14 112:18 22 67:16 71:16 74:19 94:9 86:7,17 94:1,3,13 95:5,13 SOTOMAYOR [33] 24:1,18 stays [1] 15:17
115:16 116:13 self-evident [1] 59:17 97:9,14,15 108:13 109:3, 25:2,5,22 37:13,14,21 38:4, steady [2] 3:16 10:22
rifles 64:8
[1] self-regulating [7] 4:25 8: 13 111:2,9,24 115:14,16 12,22 65:11,24 66:2,18 87: step [2] 19:14 84:24
right-handed [1] 74:21 16 9:2 12:9 26:17 27:2 shots [18] 4:10 5:4 6:19 7: 16,19 88:18,19,24 89:13, stepping [1] 16:9
rights [1] 20:6 115:7 18 14:16 19:8 40:23 43:18 20 90:2,12,16,20 91:6,15, still [24] 12:8,12,12 14:19,
road 61:15
[1] semi [1] 66:17
46:6 52:19 56:23 64:11 86: 18 92:1,3,7,11 24 15:6 33:19 34:5 41:12
ROBERTS [26] 3:3 9:6,8, semi-automatic [4] 85:19
9,12,14 94:12 96:11 109:6 source [1] 45:10 63:15 66:12 72:14 75:21,
23 10:1,7 34:10 37:12 38: 89:8 103:22 115:12 shouldn't [4] 24:23 49:25 sources [1] 38:17 23 77:9 85:2 86:7 89:4,24
23 41:3 45:13,16 47:7 73: semiautomatic
[14] 4:5 8:
60:4 69:25 speakers [2] 17:6 38:17 92:16 97:9,12 105:12 116:
25 74:5,9 84:16 86:20 88: 9 12:2 39:4,10 42:1 44:19 show [2] 10:12 90:5 speaking [1] 78:20 17
17 93:15,18 97:20 105:9 60:24 64:15 65:15 67:11 showing [1] 27:13 specialized [1] 39:15 stock [65] 3:12,25 4:9,23 5:
112:7,10 117:18 70:21 96:24 97:6 side [2] 74:6 97:1 specifically [1] 51:21 2 6:13 7:9,17 8:4 9:4,5 12:
roll [1] 93:2 Senate [2] 38:5 90:23 significant [2] 17:23 49:20 spectrum [1] 39:8 18 14:23 15:23 24:9 26:18
round [3] 48:19 52:18 89:5 Senator 20:10 42:8,18
[5]
significantly [1] 40:3 speculating [1] 37:25 33:8,11 39:7 40:14 43:5

Heritage Reporting Corporation

Sheet 8 remarks - stock
 126
Official - Subject to Final Review
47:20 48:13 49:2,22 52:20 technology [1] 13:24 translating [1] 90:24 16 55:17 72:21,22,23 11 29:5,9 37:8 46:18,20
54:10 55:14 60:19 61:1 62: term [5] 38:5 69:13 89:22 treat [1] 95:19 try [6] 11:15 13:23 24:15 25: 80:12,17 83:7 84:9 89:4,6
22,23 63:8,14 66:8,20,23, 90:7 113:20 treated [3] 16:16 96:18,19 17 41:25 91:14 110:18 111:14 116:19,20
24 67:4,6,9 70:4 72:12,17 terms [3] 55:15 73:2 81:22 trial [1] 9:19 trying [17] 14:12 16:18,23 usage [8] 4:2,18 36:12 37:
77:15,21,24 79:6,10 84:21 territory [1] 35:8 trigger [301] 3:12 4:2,3,6,8, 18:7 20:13 45:5,6 50:15 23 51:13 113:19,20 114:3
85:11,20 86:2 94:22,24 95: test [3] 65:25 71:2 111:6 13,14,22 5:10,20,23 6:9,11 52:2 53:20 61:11 73:3 85: user [5] 8:17 9:2 32:9 33:4
16 96:25 97:13,17 107:1 tested [1] 36:23 7:1,6,13,16,19,20,23,23 8: 7 89:15 90:14 101:13 110: 34:7
108:4 112:18 115:11,15,15 tests [1] 43:7 3,13,20,22,24 10:24 12:11, 4 user's [1] 33:2
stocks [34] 15:13 19:19 25: Texas [1] 1:22 24 15:8,16,16,22 16:22,22 turn [3] 12:1 29:8 65:16 uses [3] 3:13 5:2 62:1
21 29:3 34:15 38:1 41:8 text [3] 18:18 36:10 69:14 17:3,3,10,10,12 18:4,21 19: turned [1] 24:9 using [12] 26:12 37:21 38:3
42:11 44:3 47:18 48:23 49: textualism [1] 96:6 4,10 23:14,15 26:21,23 29: turning [1] 69:22 62:21 65:20 66:6 69:19 85:
11 52:6 54:4 56:12 67:25 textualist [5] 88:10 96:3 4 30:12,18 31:4,15,19 32:5, turns [4] 32:17 54:9 82:21 11 89:25 90:8 99:12 113:
73:22 82:10 84:15 86:23 99:4 100:3,6 9,14,18,20,25 33:1,7,9,12, 96:20 20
87:2 97:25 102:13,17,22, textually [1] 101:12 18,25 36:2,4,22,22,23 37:3, two [26] 10:5 31:22 33:21
24,25 103:3,5,24 104:1,10 themselves [2] 30:4 57:16 3,18 41:17 43:14,19 45:20, 39:3 47:19 57:8,20,22 58:
V
117:12,16 theoretical [2] 39:13 40:2 22,25 46:1,2,8,22 47:17,21, 5,5,8,12,20,23,24 59:13,25 vacated [1] 34:22
stop [1] 16:3 there's [37] 8:12,16,25 9:2 22,25 48:2,4,7,10,11,16,17 60:2 63:13 64:1,12 78:12, vague [1] 105:4
stops [1] 116:19 20:17 31:1,15,22 40:1 51: 50:6,9,13,13,18,21,21 52:3, 18 80:1 81:21 96:18 valid [1] 87:5
straightforward [1] 36:7 2 54:3 55:6 69:20,24 73:6 8,9,17,25 53:1,1,3,4,12 54: type [1] 56:13 variation [2] 40:1 79:21
strengthened [1] 117:7 75:20,21,23 76:25 77:10 14 56:3,4,7 57:23 58:1,6,9, types [2] 65:2 77:19 various [3] 16:10 39:1,2
strike [1] 36:6 78:17 79:13 82:8,21 84:1 16,25 59:2,6,16,19 60:3,17, typical [2] 11:6 15:12 vast [1] 39:17
stroke [2] 30:13 93:2 92:16 93:6 94:4,19 104:15, 18,23 61:7,17,22 62:5,10, Vegas [3] 3:19 20:24 117:
strong [4] 74:23 75:15 76: 21 105:13 108:22 112:2 13 63:5,5,9,10,15,15,23,24,
U 13
22,25 113:19 115:4 116:24 24 64:1,4,17,21,21,23,25 U.S [1] 88:12 velocity [1] 80:20
stuck [4] 31:10,12 46:21 thereafter [1] 43:15 65:2,3,4,12,19,20,23 66:4, ultimately [3] 35:21 87:9 verb [4] 30:21 93:7,11 101:
113:4 thereby [1] 74:25 7,14,15,16,17,19 67:4,6,21 95:21 14
sub-issues [1] 78:18 therefore [2] 64:1 99:21 69:12,16,17,25 70:1,4 71:8, unambiguous [1] 49:10 verbs [2] 93:1,3
subject [6] 20:1 50:11 93:7, thinking [6] 33:15 73:22 13,17,18,22 72:1,4,5,12 78: unambiguously [1] 112: version [1] 33:14
13 100:21 116:7 75:9 86:22 111:3 113:9 6,10,14 79:17 80:13,23 81: 24 versus [2] 3:5 90:3
submitted [2] 117:19,21 thinks [1] 115:4 2,13 82:5,8,11,11,18,18,25 unassisted [1] 8:6 videos [2] 10:10 11:15
subsequent [1] 7:22 THOMAS [22] 5:15,24 6:6, 83:5,22,23 84:5,25 85:1,4, unattended [1] 14:2 view [14] 7:22 8:12 11:2 13:
successful [4] 48:19 75: 13,20,23 7:8,12 8:2,7,18 15,17,21 86:5,8,11,16 89:8, uncertainty [1] 35:13 5 18:12 46:15,17 80:21 81:
18 76:7 79:11 34:12 49:13,19 50:5 84:18, 17,18 90:25,25 91:9,19,20 under [11] 12:5 21:8 35:19 18 96:2 102:9,18 104:10
sufficient [3] 57:16 61:6 19,23 85:6,9,23 90:3 92:17,19,20,22 93:10,13, 37:1 68:9 70:19 71:2 80: 116:25
67:10 though [10] 33:21 56:16 76: 21,22 94:2,4,16,17,18,19, 11 88:22 92:21 111:6 violate [2] 22:20,21
suggest [3] 31:13 50:3 91: 15 84:1 86:6,8 87:25 92: 24 95:14 96:15,21,23 97:2, understand [26] 7:5 13:5 vividly [1] 117:13
7 19 97:15 98:13 4,7,10,13 98:4,12,15,16 99: 16:19,23 19:15 22:5 26:3 voice [1] 94:18
suggested [4] 50:1 55:13 Thoughts [3] 20:16,19 68: 2,12,14,19 100:12,17,19, 33:20 38:17,18 53:24 54:5, voice-activated [2] 68:14
79:4 116:11 3 20 101:13,24 102:1,18 103: 23 62:6 70:8 72:7 83:9 90: 114:15
suggesting [3] 54:25 55: three [4] 36:10 64:2,11,14 11 105:14,17,18,21,24 106: 11 96:10,17 105:23 108:5 volition [2] 13:19 14:11
25 101:5 throw [3] 30:13,25 104:17 6,11,15,21,25 107:8,15,16 110:5 111:4 112:1 113:7 volitional [1] 15:9
suggests [2] 68:23 110:18 thrust [5] 49:1 72:17 74:1, 108:14 109:11 111:9,12,21, understanding [7] 12:10 volitionally [1] 76:19
suppose [1] 58:8 2 78:2 24 112:23,25 113:15,16,17, 28:22 64:9 72:9 98:3 114: vote [1] 20:6
19,24
SUPREME [4] 1:1,15 30:6 thrusting [2] 52:22 74:13 21,22 114:7,11,12,15,16,
understandings [1] 116:
W
38:13 today [5] 4:2 25:20 43:24 20 115:1,13,17 116:10,12,
wait 87:10
[1]
sustained [1] 77:8 83:20 112:17 18,20 10
understood [6] 23:17 31: walk 14:2
[1]
sweeping [1] 110:20 together [2] 57:23 109:10 trigger's [3] 48:5 50:8 66: wanted [9] 28:14,23 31:19
swing [6] 30:14 36:6 93:1, tomorrow [1] 102:15 19 23 53:18 74:6 89:22 91:8
undertake [2] 48:18 52:21 38:2 56:14 73:10 94:11,13
5,7,8 took [1] 19:19 trigger-initiated [1] 6:24 101:21
swipe [1] 114:22 tool [1] 91:13 triggering [7] 48:2 63:12 undertaken [1] 79:7
unfair [1] 22:25 wants [3] 54:24 75:25 84:7
swiping [1] 114:16 top [1] 46:13 69:21 85:11,13,16 86:19
Washington [2] 1:11,20
switch [12] 32:17 33:2 56: topic [1] 20:12 triggers [18] 4:19 30:18 36: unintentional [1] 14:22
unique 29:3
[1] watch [2] 9:22 11:15
24 65:7,15,16 69:20,21,23 torrent [3] 62:5 94:20 95:1 13 41:22 52:7 64:2,2,4 69: way [66] 5:11,13 12:4 13:7,
82:21,25 94:17 totally [1] 63:21 5 82:14 91:3,4,24,24 98:10 UNITED [10] 1:1,16 57:4
59:5 65:4 70:2,9 81:1,12 8 14:17,22 15:8,12,24 16:
switches [2] 44:17 68:11 touch [2] 22:7 52:9 101:23 113:25 114:17
16 18:9,22,24,25,25 20:2,
sympathetic [1] 13:11 touched [2] 52:25 53:1 Trinity [7] 87:23 88:4,6,8, 84:3
unless [2] 34:20 76:22 14,21 31:22 32:10 34:3,4
synonymous [2] 99:13 touches [1] 53:2 10,15 113:2
40:18 46:20 51:2,5 52:7,
113:21 touching [1] 80:13 trips [1] 14:2 unnamed [1] 93:6
unnoticed 30:2 [1] 14,19 62:22 63:9 67:2 68:
touchscreen [2] 114:17, tripwire [2] 13:25 14:19
T 22 trivial [1] 16:3 unreliable [1] 91:13 22 70:4 71:13 75:7,15 76:
talked [6] 36:11,16 38:25 until [2] 3:17 114:5 6,12 81:8 82:6 83:7 86:18
tracks [1] 103:5 trivially [1] 4:20 91:22 92:7 94:25 95:6 96:
43:24 100:20 115:2 traditional [6] 4:14 5:8 6:5 trouble [1] 9:9 unusual 14:17 27:5
[4]
talks [1] 110:17 105:1,4 3,9 101:11 105:21 106:8
7:2 37:22 40:4 true [12] 15:25 16:19 23:12 107:23,25 108:6,9 109:14,
task [2] 49:8 79:11 transitive [2] 93:1,3 27:23 34:2 36:9 43:25 52: up [19] 5:6 13:23 20:4 27:

Heritage Reporting Corporation

Sheet 9 stock - way
 127
Official - Subject to Final Review
23 110:21,24 113:9,24 115: worse [1] 73:6
6,20 116:8 worth [4] 42:25 43:1 113:9
ways [4] 23:20 31:18 69:3 114:10
87:12 writ [1] 34:22
weapon [50] 5:13 8:4 27: write [2] 31:9 102:16
18 39:4,10,11,15,19 44:19 writes [1] 43:8
48:1,3 49:4 52:12 58:2 60: writing [1] 73:2
22,22,24 61:6,10 62:16,18 written [6] 31:7 56:11 68:
63:7,25 64:22 65:7 66:24, 23 73:21 91:2 101:11
25 67:2,10,12,23 68:25 69: wrongful [1] 28:20
19 70:21 71:23 72:5 74:25 wrote [12] 23:11,12,23 31:6
77:16,22,24 78:3 92:15,17 41:14,20 73:22 95:7 101:
95:18 96:11 102:3 103:22 19 112:22 117:3,15
106:18 108:3 115:13
weaponry [2] 56:14 102:2
Y
weapons [26] 3:20,22 16: years [4] 20:2 23:12 24:13
15,16 17:19 18:7 39:7 42: 56:11
1 47:15 52:3,6 53:21 54: York [1] 38:9
20,24 55:2 56:18 87:7 89: Z
11 91:3,23 101:22 105:1,4
zip-tied [1] 36:23
107:18,21 117:10
Wednesday [1] 1:12
welcome [1] 5:14
well-developed [1] 78:17
whatever [1] 18:5
Whereupon [1] 117:20
whether [19] 45:22 48:10
54:9 56:6 64:1 65:14 71:2,
3,12 82:1,5 83:11 87:9,11
95:12 96:13 104:25 111:7,
10
who's [1] 45:5
whole [1] 24:22
wiggling [1] 37:3
will [14] 3:3,16,18 22:21 23:
4 29:16 54:10 59:3 65:2
77:19 82:13 86:17,18 96:2
win [7] 78:5,11,12,13,14,15
85:21
wind [1] 20:4
wins [1] 108:10
wire [1] 14:2
within [2] 78:18 104:25
without [9] 4:16 19:8 26:9
40:23 44:4 46:6 85:19 88:
25 112:25
wondering [1] 17:16
word [12] 17:22 31:17 41:
20 42:13 50:16,17 51:13
52:1 69:12 91:25 92:6 100:
7
words [16] 10:2 14:11 23:
11,12 38:18 45:10 51:4 93:
20 102:13 105:16,25 112:
21,23 113:3,4 117:14
work [9] 9:3 14:24 15:23
17:23 27:4 83:24 84:1 109:
10 110:21
workarounds [2] 41:16
116:4
works [5] 17:13 61:19 109:
24 114:16,22
world [1] 81:22
worried [1] 19:7
Heritage Reporting Corporation
Sheet 10 way - zip-tied