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ddrum unveils the upgraded Dominion Birch Series, with reimagined shell-pack configurations, new
hardware, and eye-catching finishes. The Dominion Birch Series unites the tonal dynamics of classic
birch shells with cutting-edge design, and a splash of sophistication, to bring this popular drum
series to a new level of performance and appearance. Featuring 4-piece, 5-piece, and 6-piece sets,
the Dominion Birch Series offers players of any genre a strong foundation for sound quality and the
utmost style to let their drumming personality shine.

@ddrumusa
June 2021 Modern Drummer 1
CONTENTS

16 BUTCH VIG
Drummer, Producer, Innovator Butch Vig
talks to Mark Griffith about playing drums in
Garbage, his involvement in developing the
new Roland V-Drums, his production style
behind records by Killdozer, Nirvana, Smashing
Pumpkins, and the Foo Fighters. He also
talks about his new side projects 5 Billion in
Diamonds and Emperors of Wyoming. Roland
artist relations and channel strategy team
members Igor Len and James Petercsak also
join the Roland conversation for added insight
into the new generation of electronic drums
and drumming.

30 MARK “THE REZ” 36 PAUL FRANCIS 48 DARU JONES

REZNICEK There are few people who know cymbals In this third installment of The Daru
Jeff Ryan talks with The Toadies drummer as well as cymbal smith Paul Francis. Paul Sessions, Daru takes us through the
Mark Reznicek about the band’s 25th brings 30+ years of R&D for Zildjian and development and inspiration of his
Anniversary tour celebrating their epic a lifetime of cymbal knowledge to his original PDP DJNY kit, and the new
Rubberneck record. They also talk about interview and his new company Cymbal Nashville Blue New Yorker kit. This very
Mark’s long drumming career, and his Craftsman. If you love cymbals and are versatile new kit from PDP offers some
comic book Buzzkill. on a quest for “the perfect cymbal,” Paul cool and innovative surprises.
shares some very good advice and offers
some inside expertise to assist you in
your quest.
Volume 46 • Number 10
Cover and contents photos LESSONS
by Jason Trabue
52 BASICS
Billy Ashbaugh shares his experienced insight about practicing outside of the
box.

54 LESSON
Drum Channel and Brendan Buckley share an interesting exercise in switching
94

Biography
between triplets and sixteenth notes.

56 JAZZ DRUMMERS WORKSHOP

Modern Drummer dives into the first of Joe Morello’s legendary Control
Studies from his influential book, Master Studies.

58 JAZZ PERSPECTIVES
Legendary teacher and author Pete Magadini breaks down polymeters and
polyrhythms in his Polyrhythm Conversion Timetable.

Joe Morello was born on July 17, 1929. in Springfield Mass.

Having impaired vision since birth, he devoted himself to
60 ROCK AND JAZZ CLINIC
any job he was called for. As a result, his musical experiences
ranged from rudimental military playing to weddings and

MD explores Eighth Note Triplet Double Bass Drum Fills from Joe Franco’s
indoor activities. At the age of six, his family’s encouragement social occasions. Eventually, Mr. Sefcik decided it was time
led him to studying the violin. Three years later, he was for Joe to move on. He recommended a teacher In Boston,
featured with the Boston Symphony Orchestra as soloist the great George Lawrence Stone.
in the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto. At the age of twelve, Mr. Stone did many things for Joe. He gave Joe most of the
he made a second solo appearance with this orchestra. But tools for developing technique. He taught Joe to read. But

classic book Double Bass Drumming.

upon meeting and hearing his idol, the great Heifitz, Joe felt probably most important of all, he made Joe realize his future
he could never achieve “that sound.” So at the age of fifteen, was in jazz, not legitimate percussion as Joe had hoped.
Joe changed the course of his musical endeavors and began Through his studies with Mr. Stone, Joe became known as
to study drums the best drummer in Springfield, and rudimental champion of
Joe’s first drum teacher, Joe Sefcik, was a pit drummer for New England.
all of the shows in the Springfield area. He was an excellent Joe’s playing activity increased, and he soon found himself
teacher and gave Joe much encouragement. Joe began on the road with several groups. First there was Hank
sitting in with any group that would allow it. When he was not Garland and the Grand Old Opry, and then Whitey Bernard.
sitting in, he and his friends, including Teddy Cohen, Chuck After much consideration, Joe left Whitey Bernard to go to

63 TEACHERS FORUM
Andrus, Hal Sera, Phil Woods, and Sal Salvador, would get New York City.
together and jam in any place they could find. Joe would play A difficult year followed, but with Joe’s determination and

Canadian drum teacher and author Chris Lesso shares his love of Open-
Handed Drumming from his new book LTR (Life Through Rhythm.)

64 ROCK PERSPECTIVES
Modern Drummer continues to explore and celebrate Carmine Appice’s
DIGITA
DOWN
LOAD L
INSIDE CODE

Ultimate Realistic Rock with a section on sixteenth note triplets.

68 CREATIVE PERCUSSION CONTROLLERS

Tony Verderosa has breaking news! Tony V tells us about the development,
unveiling, and advantages of MIDI 2.0.

EQUIPMENT
10 NEW AND NOTABLE

12 PRODUCT CLOSE UP
RTom bh Single Zone Triggers and Black Hole Practice System
Green Music Company Snare Drum Mute,

74 OUT NOW
We spotlight new recordings that feature impressive drumming
and are led by extraordinary drummers.

DEPARTMENTS
00 COLLECTORS CORNER
00 EDITORS OVERVIEW Donn Bennett shares a story about seeing
a special kit for the first time and how it
00 KIT OF THE MONTH became one of his most prized drum sets.
Josh Tilton’s Mapex MyDenity set is no
Gimikk. 00 IN MEMORIAM
We remember the influential Fredy Studer.
00 JAZZ INSIGHTS
Peter Erskine reminds us that when it comes 00 EYE CANDY
to music and drumming it’s “The Little Modern Drummer takes a closer look at Joe
Things.” Morello’s Ludwig Silver Sparkle drum set.
 AN EDITOR’S OVERVIEW

The Old and The New Founder Ronald Spagnardi 1943–2003

Co-Founder Isabel Spagnardi

A s this month’s issue was coming Publisher/CEO David Frangioni

together, I thought of the interesting CFO Carolina Frangioni
mix of features that we have. There President David Hakim
is no newer and more cutting-edge Vice-President Ronnie Jimenez
drummer and producer around today CTO Jason Mehler
than Butch Vig. His use of electronics with
Senior Art Director Scott Bienstock
his drumming in the band Garbage, 5
Billion In Diamonds, and The Emperors Content Director Mark Griffith
of Wyoming is truly inspiring and utterly Editorial Michael Finkelstein
groundbreaking. His creative producing Editorial Daniel “Ziggy” Laverde
has shaped an entire generation of music. Digital Marketing Manager Ricardo Rodriguez
Add to that the fact that he has been
Worldwide Education Dom Famularo
working with Roland on the new V Drum
Modules and the innovative hi hat and Live Fom My Drum Room Podcast John DeChristopher
cymbal pads is beyond exciting. Archivist Felipe Laverde
Then we have Tony Verderosa
introducing us to the new MIDI 2.0. THE MD PRO PANEL/ADVISORY BOARD: Chris Adler, Carmine Appice,
Kenny Aronoff, Bill Bachman, Eddie Bayers, Gregg Bissonette, Jason Bittner,
Tony tells us why its creation, applications, and the coordination
Bill Bruford, Will Calhoun,Terri Lyne Carrington, Matt Chamberlain,
between all of the companies involved, is one of the biggest Peter Erskine, Dom Famularo, Daniel Glass, Alex González, Danny Gottlieb,
musical innovations to come along in 40 years. Daru Jones is back Benny Greb, Matt Halpern, Horacio Hernandez, Gerald Heyward, Taku Hirano,
for Part 3 of The Daru Sessions talking about his new PDP signature Jonathan Joseph, Jim Keltner, Paul Leim, Peter Magadini, Pat Mastelotto,
kit which utilizes the new sound of “Snoms.” Rod Morgenstein, Andy Newmark, Carl Palmer, Stephen Perkins, Dafnis Prieto,
The “old” part of the issue is covered by our interview with Rich Redmond, Brian Reitzell, Jim Riley, Bobby Rondinelli, Antonio Sánchez,
Cindy Blackman Santana, Chad Smith, Steve Smith, Todd Sucherman,
Cymbal Craftsman Paul Francis. There are very few old-world
Billy Ward, Kenny Washington, Dave Weckl, Paul Wertico, Dennis Wolfe
traditions that still exist from the 1700’s, but cymbal making is
one of them. Furthermore, there are very few cymbal makers alive CONTRIBUTING WRITERS:
today who know as much about the old way and the new ways of Billy Ashbaugh, Donn Bennett, Clayton Cameron, Bob Campbell,
Peter Erskine, Dom Famularo, Bob Girouard, Mike Haid, Brian Hill,
making cymbals as Paul Francis, and he gives us a masterclass on Daru Jones, Nic Kubes, Chris Lesso, Daniel Laverde, Peter Magadini,
the art of cymbal making. Raghav Mehrotra, James Petercsak, Tony Verderosa
The next “classic” part of this issue is Toadies drummer Mark
Reznicek, who is on tour with The Toadies celebrating the 25th MODERN DRUMMER magazine (ISSN 0194-4533) is published monthly by MODERN
DRUMMER Publications, Inc., 1279 W. Palmetto Park Rd PO Box 276064 Boca Raton,
Anniversary of their popular platinum record Rubberneck. Mark is
FL 33427. PERIODICALS MAIL POSTAGE paid at Boca Raton, FL 33427 and at additional
cut from a musical cloth that is no longer made. The Toadies aren’t mailing offices. Copyright 2022 by MODERN DRUMMER Publications, Inc. All rights
old, but they do harken back to a time in the 90s when rock and reserved. Reproduction without the permission of the publisher is prohibited.

roll was everywhere, and a new musical sound was being created EDITORIAL/ADVERTISING/ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICES:
right before our very ears. MODERN DRUMMER Publications, 1279 W. Palmetto Park Rd PO Box 276064 Boca
Raton, FL 33427. info@moderndrummer.com
Lastly, it doesn’t get more classic than The Faces. Kenney Jones’
drumming in this underrated rock band from the late 60s and early Email: info@moderndrummer.com.
70s, has gone underappreciated. But Donn Bennett is showing
MODERN DRUMMER welcomes manuscripts and photos but cannot assume responsibility
you the classic set that Kenney played with this gritty rock and roll for them.
band from the UK.
SUBSCRIPTION CORRESPONDENCE: Modern Drummer, 1279 W. Palmetto Park Rd
Music, drumming, and creativity is where old is constantly PO Box 276064 Boca Raton, FL 33427. Change of address: Allow at least six weeks
meeting new. Modern Drummer is glad to bring you the best of for a change. Please provide both old and new address and send to
info@moderndrummer.com
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POSTMASTER: Send address changes to Modern Drummer, 1279 W. Palmetto Park Rd PO
Box 276064 Boca Raton, FL 33427.
Mark Griffith
Content Director Canadian Publications Mail Agreement No. 41480017 Return undeliverable Canadian
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4 Modern Drummer October 2022

October 2022 Modern Drummer 5
 KIT OF THE MONTH

Mapex MyDenity is no Gimikk

T his month Modern Drummer’s Kit of the Month comes

to us from Josh Tilton. It is a Mapex MyDenity series
kit. He uses it for his band Gimikk which plays music from
70’s classic rock to modern pop. In speaking about his kit,
Josh states, “The cool thing about the green is that it’s
black light reactive so it actually glows under the right
lighting. “
This slick looking Mapex kit sports an 8", 10", and 12"
rack toms, with a 16" floor tom, and a 22" kick. Josh’s
snare is a 5.5x14 Mapex Hammered Steel snare. The 10"
PDP side snare and LP Ridge Rider Cowbell both have
a custom hot pink finish to match color scheme of the
drums and Josh’s hot pink drum rug.
Josh’s Zildjian Cymbals include: 8" A splash, 10" A
Custom Splash, 10" Oriental China/10" A splash stacked
14" A Custom fast crash, 14" A Custom hi hats, 16" A
Custom EFX, 18" A Custom crash, 19" A Custom crash, 20" A Custom Anniversary Ride,
and an 18" Oriental China.
To round things out Josh plays a Pearl demonator double bass pedal, and a Roland Spd sx with
external t-bar trigger (not pictured.)

6 Modern Drummer October 2022

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Drummer 7
 JAZZ INSIGHTS
“The Little Things”
By Peter Erskine

F irst impressions can be deceiving, but

they can also be quite revealing. When it
comes to music, we will often form an opinion
by the woman playing the double bass in
this odd quartet, she struck me as someone
who might not normally wear such clothing.
or judgement based on just a few notes’ Imagine me in hot pants. No … better
worth of playing. Most recently, I auditioned yet: don’t. In any event, the glitzy aspects
a drummer at the university and motioned of the presentation had me doubting the
for him to stop playing after only four or five seriousness of the players. She was doing fast
seconds of music. Unfair? Hardly. This is like a runs with the rest of the stringed players, but
psychiatrist who once told me when we were it was just that: fast notes, flash, smoke, and
discussing his ability to correctly diagnose wind.
someone with psychopathic tendencies, “I can But then, the music changed and there was
spot ‘em a mile away.” It’s the little things that this same bassist playing a sustained single
reveal our musicianship, our excellence as note arco, or bowed. Now, if you imagine a
well as our shortcomings. single note being held as it is being bowed
I was in Korea a few years ago as part of on a string instrument, you can see that the
a film-music-in-concert production that bow has a finite amount of length, and the
featured an orchestra with jazz band playing bassist must reverse directions of the bowing
the score to La La Land while the film was motion. This almost always results in a short
projected in the Olympic Stadium located and audible “break” in the note when the bow
in Seoul. The second half of the concert changes direction. But I was not hearing any
featured a smaller (but louder) ensemble playing the film music break at all. I quickly moved to get a better look at this bass player.
of Hans Zimmer. I knew some of the musicians in Hans’ band, like From a single held note I realized that I was witnessing one of the
drummer Satnam Ramgotra and cellist Tina Guo. Satnam was in the greatest players I had possibly ever seen play the bass with a bow.
rhythm section, and it was he who I went to listen to while standing All the while, she was wearing her hot pants, and sporting a lovely
stage right during their show. Tina, the cellist, was part of a string mane of grey hair that was also somewhat revealing of her age. I
quartet of women who were all wearing short skirts or hot pants could not stop talking about her afterwards. Who was she?
(short, short pants) … A surprising bit of show biz but I got it and Well, as soon as I began to talk about her to any of my London-
it made sense with the overall tone of the show: smoke machines, based colleagues (I had overheard her speaking in the hotel bar
fans blowing the musicians’ hair, music from The Pirates of the with a bit of a brogue or accent), they would interject, “Oh, that’s
Caribbean … you get the idea. While watching, I was fascinated Mary! Yeah, she’s the best.” Mary Scully. A bassist who has played
with Paul McCartney, Madonna, and on more
film scores than you can count, plus the very best
classical recordings. I have not spoken to her about
that night in Seoul, but I will never forget how
wonderfully she played that one note. Witnessing
that was one of those lifetime musical highlights
for me. ONE NOTE. Ha, it turns out that we worked
together on the Joni Mitchell Both Sides Now album
back in 2000.
Another London-based musician who was on
that Joni Mitchell session made a similar impression
upon me, only it took a series of 3 notes this time.
At the recording session one morning, there was a
film crew documenting what we were doing. The
arrangement of the Etta James classic song “At
Last” began with a slow orchestra introduction that
was followed by the piano establishing the tempo
by playing eighth-note triplets. This was cued by
only the slightest upbeat provided by arranger-
conductor Vince Mendoza. The pianist appeared
quite young, partially obscured from my view by
the cameraman who had the camera lens right in
this musician’s face. No matter. First take. This kid
Peter Erskine

nailed it. Perfectly played unwavering triplets, each

tuplet the perfect dynamic, every note in the triad
perfectly balanced and enunciated. Sounds easy?
Mary Scully on bass, Seoul, Korea
Try it? Mezzo-piano. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

8 Modern Drummer October 2022

 It’s the little things.
The Los Angeles Philharmonic Percussion Section with jazz drummer
from left, Peter Erskine, Matt Howard, Jim Babor, Perry Dreiman, So, back to this drummer who auditioned for me
Joseph Pereira yesterday. I decided it would be a good idea to allow him
to play more for me so I could not be accused later of
being unfair in my assessment. And what did his playing
reveal (granted, auditions are no fun for the player
who is feeling put on the spot)? Well, it revealed just
what my instincts had relayed to my informed sense of
musical judgement based on years upon years of playing
experience and analysis! A distinct lack of vocabulary
and an over-reliance of landing on the downbeat at the
end of every 4-bar phrase. He had no clear ride pattern
rhythm, articulation, or style. And he had developed a
habit of putting more energy into making what I call the
jazz-drumming-face than simply playing some time that
swung. By the way, I encouraged this student to register
for our school’s intermediate-level drumming proficiency
course where these shortcomings are handily addressed.
Oh yeah, speaking of auditions. I once asked the
When we took this music on tour with Joni, local pianists great percussionist Perry Dreiman of the Los Angeles
would be part of the orchestra that was hired for the concert, and Philharmonic what Timpani excerpt they relied upon to best
almost to a man, each one of them mocked the simplicity of what gauge an auditioning
they were asked to play: some dopey triplets. And almost every timpanist’s suitability
professional pianist who was hired for these concerts could not for the orchestra.
play it anywhere nearly as well as this young pianist did in London. “Was it the Intermezzo
Oh yeah, his name is Dave Arch. movement from the
It’s the little things. Bartók “Concerto
Okay, let’s talk about a couple of drummers. Another Dave. for Orchestra” (a
Weckl for starters. The first time I heard him, it was not his chops notoriously difficult
that impressed me, or any particular fill that knocked my socks off. bit of music to play,
What impressed me was his ability, and his choice (which revealed complete with time
his innate sense of musicality as well as musical priorities) to NOT signature changes and
SPEED UP while the rest of the band went off to the races on a multiple note-tuning
double-time samba feel. In the amount of time it took for just a few challenges)?” “No,” he
bars to pass, I knew that this guy had it. And when I recommended replied with a smile,
him for the gig that happened to lead to all of the others, it was ‘Beethoven’s 9th
based on the drumming musicality of his that I heard. I could spot Symphony.’ We can
him a mile away. tell with just two or three notes if we want to hear
Or how about Joe LaBarbera? One more of them or not.” Shoutout to LA Phil timpanist
of my favorite drummers. He has a Joe Pereira who got the gig and is also my teaching
beautiful vocabulary and touch, with colleague at the Thornton School of Music at the
a tremendous sense of swing, the man University of Southern California.
can play all over the drumset and it’s Finally, bassist Mike Valerio. A Los Angeles
always great. But what got me out of studio legend. Mike is blessed with prodigious
my seat a few years back was his choice technique beyond your wildest dreams. This guy
to play the hi-hats behind the start of can play ANYTHING, yet my favorite playing of his
tenor saxophonist Jimmy Greene’s solo are the whole notes he played alongside me on
on the last tune of a set, only Joe stayed a Mary Chapin Carpenter album a few years back
on the hats for the ENTIRE solo and the titled Songs from the Movie. They sat so perfectly
rest of the song! The sense of tension and and complemented the music so beautifully and
excitement was unbelievable. I literally profoundly. A single note. For every bar. Nothing
jumped out of my chair during the last more.
chord. Bassist Mike Valerio at Capitol Studios It’s the simple things. It’s the little things.
That wasn’t the first time I’ve jumped
out of my chair while listening to a
drummer. The first time was in 1970 while I was in high school, and
our jazz band was taken to hear a concert by the US Army Field
Band. The drummer played an intro to the Meters’ tune “Cissy Strut.” Check out Peter’s drummer
I had never heard anything like it. I say “heard,” but it was a more profile page, and get a copy
visceral overall sensation of being hit between my musical eyes by of his Legends book at
a kinetic power that very few musicians can wield. Oh yeah, this modern drummer.com
guy’s name was Steve Gadd. Four bars and my life was changed.

October 2022 Modern Drummer 9

 DRUM WORKSHOP JOINS ROLAND CORPORATION
Combining two of the world’s best acoustic and electronic drum “For the past 50 years our goal has always been to inspire,
companies to focus on delivering new innovation for drummers; motivate and solve problems for drummers,” said Don Lombardi,
Drum Workshop will operate as a standalone unit with pioneering founder and chief product officer of Drum Workshop. “I have
founders retaining leadership positions. Roland is the leading global always been a fan of the innovation coming from Roland, and we
manufacturer of electronic musical instruments widely recognized are thrilled to partner with them on inventing solutions for future
for its gamechanger products in the electronic drum world under its generations.”
V-Drums brand and its innovative V-Drums John Good, co-founder of Drum
Acoustic Design (“VAD”) series of products. Workshop, said, “I look forward to
Drum Workshop is recognized as the continuing to bring handcrafted, custom
global leader in acoustic drums. solutions to drummers with the partnership
“In the world of acoustic drums, Drum of Roland. Their reputation for driving
Workshop stands apart,” said Gordon product innovation is admirable, and we are
Raison, chief executive officer of Roland. looking forward to the additional support
“We have always been impressed by they will bring to our people, our artists and
their products, their people, and their our industry partners.”
craftsmanship. Drum Workshop shares the “We have been impressed by the
same legacy and dedication to people inside Drum Workshop
musical innovation that we have and are excited to welcome Chris,
at Roland, and we are committed Don, John and the entire Drum
to supporting Drum Workshop in Workshop team to the Roland
doing what they do best.” family,” added Masahiro Minowa,
“Roland’s philosophy in driving chief innovation officer of
innovation across all forms of expression is complimentary with Roland. “Roland continues to lead the way for musicians, producers,
ours, and we are excited to join forces in this relationship that will and beatmakers, providing modern software-based solutions
benefit artists and musicians everywhere,” said Chris Lombardi, and seamless creative workflows between hardware products,
chief executive officer of Drum Workshop, Inc. computers, and mobile devices.

AHEAD ANNOUNCES A NEW SIGNATURE STICK

Rikki Rockett’s black on green drumstick is FEATURES • Replaceable covers, tips and rings
the best of both worlds with the larger grip • 5B handle and a 5A shaft create slightly • High quality, unbreakable nylon tip
of a 5B handle and the lighter articulation less shock reduction than most models provides a softer, wood-like sound
of a 5A shaft, designed to provide a great • 50% less shock than wood drumsticks • Super-hard polyurethane replaceable
balance of speed, power and control for • High precision alloy core guarantees covers protect your drumsticks and your
Rikki’s high performance playing style. consistent weight and balance variations of gear
aheaddrumsticks.com less that 1% • Built-in Vibration Control System (VRS)

ROLAND UNVEILS SPD-SX PRO SAMPLING PAD

New Flagship Sampling Pad with Advanced Features and sets a new standard for stage drummers and all types of creative
Professional Enhancements Based on Feedback from SPD-SX performers.
Users The SPD-SX PRO features nine durable pads with Roland’s latest
Roland announces the SPD-SX PRO Sampling Pad, the new flagship sensing technology, including three shoulder pads with revised
model in the long-running SPD series. Born of user feedback fueled sensor structures for increased sensitivity when the instrument
by extensive road testing of the touring-standard SPD-SX, this is mounted at a shallow angle. In addition, improved crosstalk
high-performance instrument raises the bar with a full array of protection throughout prevents accidental triggering of other
professional enhancements. Offering customizable trigger LEDs, pads. Pad-dividing trigger LEDs increase visibility on stage and help
increased audio outputs and trigger inputs, massive onboard players organize kit setups. Custom colors can be assigned to any of
memory, and much more, the rugged and reliable SPD-SX PRO the horizontal or vertical LEDs. Going further, colors can be renamed

10 Modern Drummer October 2022

and combined with tags to group kicks, snares, backing tracks, and sample libraries and sounds to explore.
other sounds for easy identification. The horizontal LEDs can also be Users can create A/B layers and quickly adjust volume, pitch, and
set to light in various ways to suit the performance application. The transient parameters via dedicated panel controls. Sounds can also
SPD-SX PRO’s inviting interface includes a large 4.3-inch color LCD be adjusted at deeper levels with waveform editing and other tools.
and hands-on controls with backlighting for easy operation on stage. Multiple high-quality effects engines are available to color sounds
The LCD provides access to deep and enhance the overall output.
parameters and shows essential The SPD-SX PRO flows easily into
info such as A/B layers, WAV sample any stage setup with balanced stereo
names, sample playback progress, master outputs, four assignable
and more. mono outputs, and an assignable
With 32 GB of internal memory, headphones output. Four dual-
the SPD-SX PRO holds nearly 44 trigger inputs support up to eight
hours of crystal-clear 48 kHz/16-bit external Roland pads, and up to two
stereo audio—more than enough footswitches can also be connected to
for multiple gigs. Users can load trigger sounds. Additionally, a special
48/44.1 kHz WAV, AIFF, and MP3 files control input supports a Roland hi-hat
with varying bit rates, and the SPD- controller or an expression pedal for
SX PRO will automatically convert real-time effects control.
them to its native audio format, The SPD-SX PRO App from Roland
greatly simplifying the process of Cloud makes it easy to import, edit,
importing sounds. The SPD-SX PRO and organize sounds on a Mac or
comes with over 1550 high-quality Windows computer via USB. The USB
sounds and 200 user kits with 43 connection also supports DAW music
pre-loaded presets. It’s also possible production with the ability to transfer
to connect a line-level device and MIDI data and up to eight channels of
sample directly to pads. Kits can be switched with complete sound high-quality digital audio. The Roland SPD-SX PRO will be available
carryover thanks to speedy processing power. And for more options, in the U.S. in October for $1,199.99. Roland.com
Roland Cloud membership provides an ever-expanding selection of

LEWITT ANNOUNCES BEATKIT AND BEATKIT PRO DRUM MIC KITS

The new BEATKIT is the perfect choice for onstage. focused, punchy, yet natural sound. The
entry-level users looking for the best sound The DTP 640 REX kick drum microphone LCT 140 AIR stereo pair offers two sound
quality on a tight budget. The package is LEWITT’s flagship kick drum mic. It has characteristics, low-cut, and attenuation
includes four fantastic microphones from the three switchable sound characteristics to which makes them perfect as overheads. The
LEWITT range – one kick drum microphone, quickly find a great sound for live or studio pair is perfectly matched via one of the most
one for snare, and a perfectly matched stereo applications. Equipped with two phase- precise matching processes in the industry
pair for overheads. to deliver perfect
The DTP 340 REX kick drum stereo recordings
microphone offers two sound with great room
characteristics, which help to impression and a
get your preferred sound fast. centered snare. It
The snare is a MTP 440 has an excellent
DM. This dynamic snare transient response
microphone earned praise by which combined
being the favorite of legendary with the well-
session and live drummer balanced sound
Kenny Aronoff. captures your kit
The LCT 040 MATCHED accurately. The
overhead microphones BEATKIT PRO comes
provide well-balanced sound. Via LEWITT’s aligned capsules – dynamic and condenser, in a super-sturdy transport case ideal for
automated production processes, you get this mic lets you shape your sound as you storing and transportation. Never was there a
perfectly matched stereo pairs without want it to be. more complete pro package. Available from
paying extra. Their light weight and compact As the MTP 440 DM is the favorite snare September 2022, for $999.
size make it super easy to position. mic of many acclaimed recording artists, it is Video links: https://youtu.
All included microphones complement also part of this premium package. And it’s be/68xyEpbQMX4 https://youtu.be/
each other perfectly and deliver fantastic clear why. It delivers a depth and naturalness wzysJVFFox8
results fast and hassle-free. Available from that will capture your snare accurately Website: www.lewitt-audio.com/
September 2022, for $449. making it sound fantastic even without microphones/dtp-percussion/beatkit-pro
The BEATKIT PRO is a premium 7-piece EQ. The three DTP 340 TT tom microphones www.lewitt-audio.com/microphones/dtp-
drum mic kit. It offers everything you need feature a supercardioid pattern. Offering percussion/beatkit
for professional setups in the studio or maximum source separation, and a very

October 2022 Modern Drummer 11

 PRODUCT CLOSE-UP

RTOM’s bh single zone triggers and Black Hole Practice System

By Daniel “Ziggy” Laverde

W hen I received the Black Hole

practice system starting pack from
RTOM, I was unsure as to how effectively
they would reduce the sound of an
acoustic drum kit and I was hesitant as to
how simple they would be to install. The
dark finish and lightweight packaging
grabbed my attention at first glance. I had
no idea how difficult or easy it would be to
install these, as I had no prior experience
with them. As I opened the box, I
discovered five mesh heads measuring 10,
12, 14, 16, and 22 inches. The kick drum
head included a tuning key and a metal
plate with a foam pad. As I unboxed the
heads, I encountered no complications,
and the procedure was really smooth.
Then it was time to attach them to my
acoustic drum set.
Fortunately, I already had a drum set
with these size heads, so the process was
straightforward. I simply had to set the
Mesh heads on the drums and push them
down onto the rims, and they were immediately installed.
The only drum that required any effort was the Kick drum. As
indicated previously, the box included a metal plate together
with an adhesive pad. According to the instructions, all I
had to do was adhere the foam pad on the metal plate and
then place it underneath my kick drum. Although this may
sound challenging, the plate was designed to extend slightly
beyond the bottom of the kick, where a drum beater would
normally go. Next, the mesh head was installed on the kick
drum. Three foam pieces were attached to the mesh head
itself. It was as simple as removing the adhesive tape from
the foam and pressing it into my kick drum. I was ready to
attach my beater to the pedal once it was installed. Again,
this was an easy process; all I had to do was place it on top of
the metal plate that protruded from behind my kick drum,
and I was ready to play within five minutes. The mesh heads
do include a tuning key, but I did not need to use it because
they were properly tensioned out of the box.
When playing drums with these heads, the volume level
is greatly reduced, while the tone and feel of acoustic drums
are preserved. You can still hear the sound and tone of

12 Modern Drummer October 2022

your drumkit without it being extremely loud. It was almost like selected drum module via quarter inch cords. In my case the bh
turning the volume down on your drums manually. The heads triggers were connected to an Alesis Strike Drum Module. It was a
include a thick rubber rim, which is ideal for practicing rim shots straightforward process to connect the cords to the module and
and other uses that are not available with other run the cables from the triggers.
sound dampening drum products. Overall, these From unboxing to sound testing required
heads are a tool that every drummer should own, only a few minutes. Once I began testing, the
especially if they cannot practice due to volume triggers proved to be highly sensitive. You will
concerns. need to alter the sensitivity settings on every
After completing my testing of the mesh module with which you use these triggers. This
heads, I attached the brand-new RTOM bh single is required to achieve the desired sensitivity,
zone triggers. RTOM has created these triggers touch, and sound. This is the only timely step
to function with the black hole mesh head. I in the entire procedure. Aside from that, they
was eager to hear how everything would work perform and function admirably, particularly
together. At first view, the triggers appeared sleek with Black Hole mesh heads. The triggers are
and user-friendly. I was able to attach the triggers also quite durable and sleek, which is beneficial
to all of the mesh heads in under a minute. They if you wish to conceal their appearance.
attached effortlessly and could be tightened with If you’re a drummer on a tight budget, these
a little scroll wheel on the trigger. Each trigger uses a quarter-inch are ideal. A five-pack costs $79.99, and the Black Hole mesh heads
output that is compatible with the majority of drum modules. are priced at $299.99. For more information go to rtom.com
These triggers are incredibly simple to install and connect to the

October 2022 Modern Drummer 13

 PRODUCT CLOSE-UP
Green Music Company: Snare Buzz Mute
The Anti-Buzz Tool That Helps Eliminate Unwanted Snare Buzz at the Flip of a Switch.
By Brian Hill

S nare Buzz: A phrase we’re all too familiar with.

Nobody really likes it, and nobody really wants it.
But how do we get rid of it? Roger Green of the Green
Music Company, based out of San Juan Capistrano,
CA, has come up with a very clever device that may be
a great solution for many frustrated drummers.
First, what exactly is snare buzz? By my definition,
snare buzz is the sound of your snares vibrating
when not being played. These unwanted snare
vibrations are the result of the snares reacting to
sympathetic frequencies from other sound sources
such as the drums in your set-up, bass and other
guitars, keyboards or other amplified sounds having
a frequency too close to the frequency tuning of the
snare drum.
Like most of you, I too am constantly struggling metal piece referred to as a Anti-Choke Bar. This can help you get
to get rid of that annoying buzz. I’ve tried all kinds of ways to a hold of the buzz without choking the original drum sound too
eliminate this with (mostly) not such good results. Just about much.
everything I’ve tried seemed to really alter the way my snare The Snare Buzz Mute is very simple to install and use. Simply
sounded to the point that it was not acceptable to me or simply line up the three slots in the apparatus with the three arms in the
didn’t work very well. center of the snare basket. Move the adjustment bar to the lowest
One day while exploring the topic, it was suggested to me position. Measure the distance from the lowest position of the SBM
that the reason was one of pure physics: Sympathetic Vibrations and adjust the snare basket so that the SBM is about one half inch
reacting within my drum kit. The best way to eliminate it was to below the snares. Use the spacers to fill in the gap if needed. Using
tune it out. That is, to get the offending drum(s) and the snare just the pads will give you a more choked affect while utilizing the
tuned to different pitches so that that the drums are producing Anti-Choke Bar pad will reduce the buzz with less sound alteration
frequencies far enough apart so not to interact with each other to and contact to the snares. The SBM lever
the point of snare buzz. has three height adjustments to choose
Wow, that sounds easy enough! from. Fine tuning is achieved by raising
Just tune it out! This technique, and lowering the snare drum basket.
probably the best answer to reduce Yes, the SBM will change the sound
the buzz being produced by our own of the drum depending on how you
drums, comes with some limitations adjust it, but so does every other solution
and compromise. The compromise I’ve experimented with over the years.
comes with having to tune the drums I found the drum still had a really good
essentially not to affect each other sound while eliminating up to 100% of
by frequency, which means they may the buzz. I liked it even better while trying
sound a bit different from where you something closer to the 90% or slightly
initially tuned them. The limitation is better range. Obviously, eliminating the
found in that your tuning will not keep buzz from your entire kit will improve the
your bass player from lighting up the over-all sound quality.
snares as well as many other sound Ideally, I think proper tuning is still
factors involved with playing music. the best way to tune out the buzz, but
The fact that tuning can also be a lifelong journey to perfect for again there are still short comings to this mode of thought. First,
most of us, including myself, will be limiting in itself. tuning can still be challenging for many as well as time consuming.
Trying to capture all these external agitators and keep these Secondly, tuning will not help you with other external sound
vibrations under control is nothing less than daunting. This is sources coming from other instruments, sound systems, and room
certainly falling into the wheelhouse of the Snare Buzz Mute (SBM) changes. SBM will properly address these issues.
which is trying to simplify our lives with this handy product. Roger The Snare Buzz Mute will fit most snare baskets, but if it
Green was kind enough to send us one to check out. This is what I doesn’t yours, Roger Green recommends the Gibraltar model
found. #5706 snare drum stand. This was an easy review as SBM does
Snare Buzz Mute is certainly a well thought out design that is what it says it will do: Eliminate the snare buzz! The Green Music
an extremely well built piece of gear. The package contained the Company has several informative videos online. Check ‘em out at
mute apparatus, eight hard magnetic foam spacer pads (four 4mm snarebuzzmute.com and get rid of your “bad buzz!”
and four 8mm), plus one additional spacer (4mm) with a raised

14 Modern Drummer October 2022

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October 2022 Modern Drummer 15

Shirely Manson

16 Modern Drummer October 2022

 Pioneering Drumme
r and Producer
Talks Drummin
B U T C H VIG
g, Roland V-Drums,
Production, and Gar
bage.
By Mark Griffith

There are very few musicians that have had the

influence that Butch Vig has had on modern
rock music. As a drummer for the band Garbage
his acoustic-electronic-hybrid approach to
drumming is revolutionary. Their new record No
Gods No Masters is their best yet. Providing a sonic
landscape that supports strong and introspective
lyrics, all laying on top of multiple layers of rhythm
and groove. His side project bands 5 Billion In
Diamonds and The Emperors of Wyoming are
about as original as music can get. 5 Billion In
Diamonds creates big sweeping soundscapes,
combined with quirky and glitchy grooves. The
Emperors of Wyoming puts a new twist on country
music by combining it with Vig’s electronica
influenced drumming.
As a producer, Vig’s credits stand for themselves.
Killdozer Twelve Point Buck; Nirvana Nevermind;
Smashing Pumpkins Gish and Siamese Dream;
Sonic Youth Dirty, Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No
Star; Against Me! White Crosses; Helmet Betty; Soul
Asylum Let Your Dim Light Shine; Jimmy Eat World
Chase this Light; Green Day 21st Century Breakdown;
Foo Fighters Wasting Light and Sonic Highways;
Sound City Real to Reel, Silversun Pickups Widows
Weeds, and Physical Thrills and many, many, others.
He has also worked on remixes and singles for
bands such as U2, Alanis Morrisette, Muse, The Cult,
Beck, Korn, Limp Bizkit, Nine Inch Nails, and many
more!
Modern Drummer was lucky enough to sit down
and talk with Butch about his new involvement
with Roland V-Drums, his drumming in Garbage,
his side projects, drummers, and his amazing
career of producing legendary records. For anyone
interested in today’s rock music, drumming in
an influential band, electronics, working with a
producer, and music production, this will be a very
exciting read.

October 2022 Modern Drummer 17

 As an addition, Butch brought along members of Roland’s pad’s feel.
artist relations and channel strategy teams, Igor Len and James Truthfully, I did have issues with the first versions of the hi-hat,
Peterscak, who contributed with Butch and others on the Roland and Igor can tell you all about that. I really complained to him a
R&D team to the development of the brand-new Roland TD-50X lot. (Ha!) But now I feel that the V-Drums are really dialed in and an
module, the new V-Drums Acoustic Design hi-hat cymbal pads, and integral part of the Garbage sound live.
other new drum products. Butch was integral in designing the new MD: How did the hi-hat pads change?
software and hardware for the series, and since he worked closely BV: They track much better now. Initially, for a rock drummer (like
with Roland, it felt natural to involve them in our conversation. me) who keeps eighth or sixteenth notes on the hats and ride
MD: Let’s start with the most recent change in your drumming. cymbal, they just didn’t have the sensitivity. When I was playing
Garbage has been touring with Tears for Fears, and I saw a show dynamically, they just didn’t track my dynamics well. But they have
and was floored to see you playing all electronic drums and finally nailed that. I was very self-conscious about the hi-hats on the
cymbals on stage. Why, and how did that happen? first tour, making sure that tracked correctly. With the new hi-hats, I
BV: Garbage has always
been a “techie” band.
There is a lot of layering,
processing, and electronica
on all of the Garbage
albums. When we first
toured in ‘95 and ‘96, I
played an acoustic kit that
was triggering samples and
sounds from the records.
Triggering was sort of a
mess back then; I was using
ddrum electronics. As we
started to tour extensively,
I began to rely more
and more on triggering
electronic sounds and
less on the acoustic kit.
Eventually, maybe 2017 or
‘18, I went all electronic and
dove into the Roland TD-50.
Today, there is no looking
back with the TD-50X and
V-Drums Acoustic Design
series.
Sonically, I love what I
can do with V-Drums, and
the band loves them too.
Shirley Manson (the singer
for Garbage) can walk right
next to my drums and
not be assaulted by the
Jason Tabue

crashing and banging of

drums and cymbals in mid-
flight. That aspect gives the
band members on stage
more freedom to move
around without having to
worry about ambient sound. If you stand side stage at a Garbage can play very expressively now, and I don’t even think about them
show, it’s dead quiet. Everything is going direct to the front of as an instrument. I just play.
house, we are all using in-ears, and there are no amps on stage. MD: So Igor, what actually changed to make the hi-hat and ride
Our front of house engineer David Guame feels like he’s mixing in a pads better?
studio because there is no ambience from the venue that he has to Igor Len: The new hi-hat followed the design of the new ride
worry about. cymbal and how it works. When Roland upgraded the design of the
MD: That can be a blessing and a curse sound-wise. Why the switch ride cymbal pad, we were aware that as you play different sections
from ddrum to Roland? of the ride cymbal, the timbre according to placement is different
BV: I will admit there was a bit of a learning curve when I made as well. When you go from the edge to the middle, and up to the
the switch. I didn’t know the software, so when I started layering bell, the sound of the cymbal changes significantly. So, the first
samples, doing editing, using internal compression and EQ, I was a thing we addressed was the ride cymbal. We used a continuous
little slow. But playing them was pretty easy, I really like the Roland sensor that is not sectional. Truthfully, that is why the cabling had

18 Modern Drummer October 2022

to change from tip ring sleeve to USB. There is so much information felt really good. It was really the hi-hat that I bitched and moaned
flowing out of the trigger to the brain that there is no way to use a about, but that’s all in the past now.
tip ring sleeve cable anymore. MD: Do you, or have you, altered your playing for the pads?
There were a few drummers who were instrumental in having BV: I have found that when I’m not playing as hard, I can play more
the hi-hat change thanks to their feedback, and Butch was one of “technically” and be more precise.
the guys who commented in detail about it initially. So now the MD: What did you dial in to use them on this tour?
cymbal pads have been taken to a different level. BV: I started by taking the Roland preset kits that I liked, and I
MD: What are you using as a brain with your V-Drums? went inside and fine-tuned each one of them. I dialed in each
BV: I have the latest software upgrade in my original TD-50 (the sound separately, piece by piece. Then I loaded my own sounds
TD-50X module upgrade), I have my 4-piece set, the VAD706, with and custom samples. I have a bunch of sub-kicks that I like. I have
kick, snare, rack, floor, and cymbals. Then I have a TD-50 mesh pad some custom snare samples that I use on different songs. Then I
on the left that provides me alternate snare sounds for verses or layered the Roland sounds and my custom samples for each kit and
bridges. The other two pads are triggering sound effects and loops. each song. I spent some time dialing in the percentage of my own
I have some weird distorted keyboard drops, sub bass drops, and samples vs. Roland sounds for each kit. Then I added some effects,
distorted drum fills and loops that I trigger for different songs. I bass drops, and alt. snares for my auxiliary pads.
have an Ableton Launch pad on stage, so when we start a song, I MD: When you are blending your samples and the Roland sounds
trigger the changes for all of the sounds and MIDI information for live, what is the ratio between the sounds that we hear out front
each song from that pad. When I glance at my TD-50, and I see the when we hear Garbage live?
name of the song, I know everything is ok. BV: It’s always a blend. On the mellower songs, and the harder rock
MD: You are the one making all of those changes on stage? That’s a tunes, I’m probably using about 70% Roland sounds, and on the
lot of responsibility. more electronica and techno sounding tunes I am using about 70%
BV: Yes. The Ableton pad goes to a laptop, that laptop does the of my own sample sounds. It all depends on the song, whether I
MIDI changes for the drums, bass, guitars, and keyboards. About want it to sound more organic, or more electronic. Sometimes I’ll
90% of the Garbage songs have a sequence, a loop, or a click on blend the two sounds 50/50, it all depends on the song.
stage. But many of those are tempo mapped where the tempo There was an initial learning curve because I didn’t know the
changes during the song. In this last tour all of the songs except software, but not everything (in life) can be “drag and drop.” After

On the mellower songs, and the harder rock tunes, I’m probably using about
70% Roland sounds, and on the more electronica and techno sounding tunes
I am using about 70% of my own sample sounds.
one had some sort of a sequence, loop, or click. When we do our a little while I got really fast at the Roland TD-50X software. I keep
own tours, we will often do a bunch of stripped-down songs in a set here at home, so I can work on the sounds, or just bash away
the middle or at the end where we freestyle without the click. That and it doesn’t drive my wife nuts. For the 2022 tour, by the time
really keeps us on our toes. we went into rehearsal and pre-production with our production
MD: What click sounds do you use? manager, Billy Bush, and our front of house guy, David Guame,
BV: I don’t like the beeps and ticking of normal click sounds. everything was preset and ready to go.
As a drummer listening to that type of click, even if you are off MD: Do you remember what of the Roland sounds that you are
incrementally, you hear the flam between you and the click, and I using?
hate that. You’d laugh if you heard my headphone mix. I have clap BV: There are an overwhelming amount of sounds in the TD-
sounds, tambourines, and shaker sounds all mixed together. Those 50X, which is great for me because I love to have options. Roland
sounds are more forgiving, and you can move the time around the has really upped their game in terms of sonics. The sounds are
click a little more. It really is OK if the drums move around a little gorgeous, and they are very expressive and dynamic. There are also
bit. I also use that approach in the studio. I don’t like using regular a lot of different velocity layers so you can really play dynamically,
click sounds as a producer. I actually have an older Roland drum and it sounds very natural.
machine that I will use the shaker and tambourine sounds as a click That’s probably an important point for drummers who aren’t as
when tracking a song in the studio. I also have a loop of the shaker “techie” as me. Drummers rely on sounds that are expressive and as
and tambourine from the song “Stupid Girl” from our first record, real as possible, and that’s really what these sounds are.
and I can speed that up or slow it down. I like playing to that loop, I MD: Let me ask the Roland guys James and Igor, where the new
find it to be easier to play with, and (like I said) more forgiving. sounds came from?
MD: How long did it take you to get used to using V-Drums live? IL: I know Butch suffered through getting all of the new sounds and
BV: When I used them on the first tour, I was hitting them too hard having to reprogram all of his kits, and he wasn’t very happy about
for the first month. I like to play dynamically, and I hadn’t set the that. (laughing)
dynamic range on the snare, so I was pounding away. But once I BV: But it was worth it! I’m a gearhead, so I just poured a big cup of
adjusted the dynamics it was pretty natural. It probably took about coffee and powered through.
a month to get into that mindset. I like the pads, they have always MD: Caffeinated gearhead tunnel vision.

October 2022 Modern Drummer 19

 BV: You bet. But by 5pm I had probably progressed to a nice glass that, and it influences the music. When you are recording drums,
of vino! (laughing) the decisions of how the room is going to help create the vibe of
James Peterscak: The TD-50X module is an important upgrade the track are important. The new V-Drums software allows you to
because it came out with the new Roland VH-14D hi-hats that tailor make, and really create a specific drum sound. For example,
Butch was speaking about, which come standard in Roland’s new you can dial in the overheads on the cymbals, but keep the toms
VAD706 kit and can also be purchased separately. With those dry, all while making the snare sound really wet. There is an
new hi-hat pads came a host of new capabilities that needed incredible amount of flexibility and control in creating the drum kit
new sounds. Because of the new technology in the hi-hat pads, sound that you want.
we had to develop a new way that we captured hi-hat samples. I especially like V-Drums for live venues. Because there are no
The way that we captured those sounds opened the door to new drum mics on stage, I am really creating the room sound that I want
possibilities and new levels of expression. Once we did that with within the TD-50X. Obviously, my drum sounds are going through
the hi-hat sounds, we went ahead and did the same thing with all the PA and the front of house engineer is going to treat my drum
of the cymbal sounds. sound as well. But now I can create a much more complete drum
The TD-50 has been out for about six years, so we took the sound from the stage.
opportunity to do an entire sound upgrade. With all of that work, MD: When you use them live, what are you sending the front of
we were able to create a new kind of ambience feature that allows house from stage?
users to dial in the ambience of each sound. This is similar to our BV: We send the kick, snare, and the toms to individual outputs, the
V-Editing feature. The room that a drum is in becomes as much a hats and cymbals also get a separate send to the front of house,
part of the sound as the drum itself. The room is such an important and the three aux tracks are mixed together in a stereo output. I
part of a drum sound. Therefore we developed a way to dial in create a submix from stage and that is what he gets out front. We
the room sound through what we call Pure/Acoustic Ambience were initially going to create a single stereo mix to send out front,
technology. Now people can dial in the room sound along with the but in big amphitheaters the low end was creating some problems,
drum sound. That opens a whole new door creatively. It becomes a and he was having a hard time getting a grasp of the low end from
whole new environment in which to create drum sounds. the super subs in the drum sounds, especially on the kick sound.
IL: That is why we call the TD-50X an upgrade not an update. We decided it would be helpful to create separate outputs, so David
There is a big difference between those two words. The core of (FOH) has a lot of control.

I’m a drummer, when I was recording, I would get obsessed with acoustic
snare drum and kick drum sounds and spend hours tweaking
them to get that perfect drum sound like everyone else.
the sounds is new, the source of the sounds is new. Unfortunately, MD: How about blending the acoustic sounds and the TD-50X
you can’t take your old sounds and sets and transfer them to the sounds live?
new module. That is what Butch was dealing with, and truthfully BV: I default to the Roland sounds, and then I slowly bring in my
what may disappoint some people. But, believe me, the change is own custom samples. A lot of my samples are really processed.
worth it, and as a proof to that we have gotten so much positive They are often heavily compressed, run through distortion boxes,
response from the drummers that we have been working with, that and heavily EQ’ed. I have samples that are 8-bit crunchers and are
we know the upgrade is worthwhile. All TD-50 owners and players created to dirty the sounds up and make them more glitchy. I have
can upgrade their module to the TD-50X through our Roland Cloud a bunch of snare sounds that are like intense gunshots, so you don’t
platform. have to mix in too much of those sounds to make a big difference.
In the end, it’s obvious that everything has improved, and the Live, I don’t use many of the reverbs or delays that are in the TD-
bar has been raised. That’s why it’s all about the TD-50X going 50X, because front of house can add that as necessary. When I am
forward. recording the TD-50X, I use all of the onboard reverb, compression,
JP: We try to have the Roland modules talk drums. When a and delays. Live, I leave that up to front of house. However, I do use
drummer wants to customize sounds, we have made that process the EQ and compression from the TD-50X live.
work in the way that drummers are used to. Most drummers don’t The kits that I have created are for specific songs, but I have a
talk in technical language of sound synthesis. Drummers think in bunch of other kits that are just crazy sounding. During sound
terms of larger cymbals and smaller cymbals, deeper snares, and checks I load up one of those kits and Eric Avery and I start playing
larger or smaller toms. That’s how drummers think about drum this bizarre dub jam. I’m sure everyone who’s listening wonders
sounds. So that’s how we designed the new sounds and samples. what the hell is going on. Then when Shirley walks on stage, I
Therefore, Butch’s new kit is a truly hybrid kit with the VAD706 at its can change to one of the Garbage kits and we can get down to
core, along with the TD-50X and the new cymbal pads. business.
BV: As a record producer, the sound of the drums in a room defines IL: In today’s live music it is about bringing the studio sound to
the vibe of the song. If you are in a ‘70s sounding dead studio, that the stage. I work with a lot of bands and music directors of pop
room and studio will define the vibe of the music. If you are in a big acts like Justin Bieber and Doja Cat, for example. And everyone is
room that is creating that “big room” sound, your brain interprets determined to bring their studio tracks with layers and layers of

20 Modern Drummer October 2022

samples and sophisticated processing to play live. The TD-50X is a first time, we wanted to take the studio on the road, like Igor said.
very liberating instrument, as it enables artists to do exactly that, Back then it was a daunting task and kind of a big mess. We were
bring the final studio drum sound production familiar to all fans of using ADAT players to play loops, but that meant we had to fast
the album onto the stage and stay true to original version of the forward or rewind between songs.
song. Then, I got the ddrum 2 because they were resilient (road-
It’s been a long road. Looking back, I remember the Simmons worthy), and the trigger was pretty fast. I actually went into my
drums, then the arrival of the ddrums, and then electronic drums studio in Wisconsin and tried to measure the response of the
became something that you could use to practice on backstage or trigger time. You could load your own custom 8 or 12 bit mono
at home without disturbing anyone. That is all good. But V-Drums samples into the ddrum, it was crude but it worked. For that tour
and especially the new V-Drums Acoustic Design series are a we mic’ed the entire kit, and had the ddrum triggers that we
whole new ballgame. They are an instrument unto themselves blended with the acoustic sound. It was a complicated process,
and designed to be a live-ready solution for touring drummers, no we had a lot of front of house guys that didn’t like it, and they
matter the musical genre or level of the player. bitched and moaned about it. There were phasing issues with the
MD: Butch, how have you viewed the transformation and evolution samples and the acoustic sounds, and there were issues because
we didn’t have in-ears and we
had wedges on stage. I can’t
blame our FOH engineers for
complaining!
Eventually we went to in-
ears on stage, and that helped
a lot. We didn’t have as many
mics on stage for the second
tour. We mic’ed the kick and
snare and had two overheads,
the toms were just triggered
sounds from the ddrum 2, that
simplicity in mic-ing, and the
simplicity of my smaller kit
helped a lot.
On that tour we also
started putting the plexiglass
shield around the drums
to deal with some of the
cymbal wash. It helped with
Jason Tabue

leakage, but it also reflected

and pointed all of the cymbal
sound right back at me. It was
so loud that I couldn’t take
it. I had to turn my in-ears
up so loud just to deal with
the reflected sound of the
cymbals that I started getting
worried about my ears. We
stayed with that set-up for the
Beautiful Garbage and Bleed
Like Me tours, and then we
took a long hiatus.
We came back with Not
of electronic drums? Your Kind of People in 2012, and so much had happened in music
BV: I cut my teeth playing rock drums when I was 16-years-old in technology in the eight years that we took off. We did an entire
my high school band Eclipse, I was in a band called Spooner, then rethink of everything. When the Roland TD-50 came out, I had
a band called Firetown that got signed to Atlantic. I had a Yamaha been waiting for it for a long time, and I dove right in. Like I said,
and Ludwig kit that I used to play live with a bunch of different there was a bit of a learning curve, but the band loved it right away.
snare drums. Initially that’s how I was approaching the records that And now there is no going back!
I played on and the records that I produced. I’m a drummer, when JP: The modern drummer has a new job, we are no longer “just”
I was recording, I would get obsessed with acoustic snare drum the drummer. So much of our job has to do with triggering loops
and kick drum sounds and spend hours tweaking them to get that and backing tracks. That is what is expected of us today. Butch has
perfect drum sound like everyone else. been a pioneer in this, and that is such a big part of what he does
When we made the first Garbage record, I approached it in Garbage. However, not all younger drummers are coming at this
differently. We started using samples and loops and really “new world” from the realm of a producer (like Butch.) What would
processing everything that we recorded in the studio. At first, I had you tell young drummers to help them deal with this new “job
no intention of touring with Garbage. But when we toured for the description” Butch?

October 2022 Modern Drummer 21

 BV: That’s a great question. It’s a totally new and brave new musical Later when the TD-50X came out, Kevin spent a lot of time
world. Artists approach drums and rhythm tracks in a completely programming and creating his drum sounds again, and like Butch,
different way from how they used to. For young drummers it has he wasn’t happy about the time it would take to start from scratch.
to start with the technical skills. How to PLAY the drums. You have But then he called me and said, “I can hear the difference, and the
to learn the craft of drumming for whatever style or approach that hi-hat is a big improvement, too.” Now he is using the TD-50X and
you are playing. That might be rock, hip hop, jazz, or whatever. the TD-50KVX V-Drums kit live exclusively. The rest is history. So if
But so many young drummers have to understand that a majority Kevin Haskins is using the TD-50X and V-Drums with Bauhaus on
of modern drum sounds these days are not only the sound of the stage, I think anyone can. Creating the solution to the problem
acoustic drums. There is A LOT of manipulation going on: loops, of transitioning from the recording to the live performance was
production, EFX processing, etc. the impetus for these instruments. We are giving drummers an
When Garbage plays a festival, I do a quick check on my kit, instrument to play, use it as they want, and let the instrument help
then I like to walk around backstage and see all of the different them to expand their mind and creativity.
drum sets. I’m a gearhead, I like to see what kits drummers are MD: Unfortunately, it’s a fundamentalist world that we live in.
playing, I find it fascinating. And what I have seen is that “drum Everything is black or white, good or bad, Mac or PC, acoustic or
sets” today are all over the place and totally unique. Some have electronic. And today that is just not how anything works. Life
only acoustic drums, some have triggers, some have triggers and is lived in the grey area, and that’s what Hybrid Drumming is.
pads… But the bigger the shows get, the more the drummer is That is why Tony Verderosa calls his column “Creative Percussion
supplementing their acoustic drums with modern technology! The Controllers,” because that’s what we are now.
sound of modern music has evolved so much in the last 20 years. IL: I call it the “vs” world. Mac vs. PC, analog vs. digital, it’s just not
Unfortunately, I don’t know of any place that young drummers can applicable anymore.
learn about that stuff. I’m sure there are some basic tutorials online, MD: In all aspects of life, it’s a blended world, we all just have to
but it takes more than that. accept that. Why are drums and drummers the last thing on earth
MD: That is why Modern Drummer started our Creative Percussion that we are refusing to “blend?” Igor who else is using the new TD-
Controllers (electronic and hybrid drumming) column with Tony 50X and the new V-Drums pads?
Verderosa, to address exactly that very issue. IL: Aside from Butch Vig and Kevin Haskins from Bauhaus, Charlie
BV: Today the approach to being a studio or a touring drummer Benante in Anthrax is using them, along with monster drummers
are one in the same. That is because whether you are recording or like Brian Frasier Moore and Aaron Draper. Journey is touring with
touring, drummers have to deal with all of these different aspects two VAD706 kits. And like I said, many of the leading pop acts like
of technology and drumming that James just described. Devon “Stixx” Taylor with Justin Bieber, Josh Dunn with Twenty One

As a record producer, the sound of the drums in a room defines the vibe of the song.
IL: In the time that we (Roland) have been working on the new Pilots, Zak Starkey with The Who, Will Hunt from Evanescence, and
triggers and pads, I have talked to Jim Keltner, and no one has a Doja Cat are using them, too. And the list goes on.
better studio drummer perspective than Jim. He posed a good JP: And a lot of houses of worship are using them, too, because
observation when he said, “Why is everyone looking at electronic (like what Butch said) those sound shields are really not the “magic
drums as an attempt at replacing the acoustic drums. Electronic answer” that they seem to be. We are also starting to hear from
drums are their own instrument. Drummers play on stage for the many small venues in Nashville that are using the V-Drums as well.
whole gig on the same kit while the guitar player is changing Some venues are just acoustic nightmares and the V-Drums solve
guitars and stomping on pedals constantly. Keyboard players also that.
change sounds many times during every song! Gimme something MD: Butch what type of adjustments did you have to make to use
so I can have some variety on my kit too! If something creates good the TD-50 and V-Drums live?
sounds, I want to use it!” We wanted to create an instrument that BV: When you are starting to use the V-Drums live, you have to take
is going to inspire musicians and to enable them to do more, not the time to create a really good headphone or in-ear mix. When
replace the existing acoustic drums. a drummer plays an acoustic kit, we automatically get a natural
Here is a great example. Kevin Haskins from Bauhaus came to acoustic mix of our drums, what they sound like in a room. When
Roland in 2019 with a request. Bauhaus was preparing to do a few you play V-Drums, the sound is not right in your face, there is no
reunion shows at the Hollywood Palladium in Los Angeles after natural room sound. You have to be patient enough to create a
a long time of silence. This was big pressure. And Kevin told me good monitor mix for yourself, but once you get your own mix
that he couldn’t play songs from five different records on the same dialed in, you’ll love it.
kit, it just wouldn’t work, it wouldn’t sound true to the original MD: What a good point. But let’s take that further, what did you do
recordings. He was worried because he played on those records to really dial in your monitor mix?
quite a long time ago, and he had no exact recollection of how BV: I have my loops down the center, and then I created a nice
they created those different drum sounds and effects. But he knew stereo mix of the drums, so everything is panned as it would be on
that he couldn’t use the same kit on every song, and that if he did, an acoustic set. Then I have the rest of the band panned exactly
sonically it just wouldn’t work. So he looked at the V-Drums kit as as they are on stage. If Duke (Garbage guitarist) is stage left, I pan
a solution. In the end, his drums sounded powerful and amazingly him slightly left. Eric Avery is usually center stage, so his bass is in
consistent, and exactly how they were on the records, and Kevin the center of my headphone mix. We usually rehearse for a tour for
was receiving so many great comments from fans and fellow about two weeks. That time is spent getting the muscle memory
drummers! back to tighten up the songs. But a lot of that time is spent dialing

22 Modern Drummer October 2022

in my (and everyone else’s) headphone mix. It’s that important! Roland forward.
MD: Are you wearing headphones on stage, or are you using in MD: And drummers like him push drumming forward.
ears? IL: When he comes back to us and say that an instrument sounds
BV: I used to wear in-ears. But now I have the gun muff style and works great, it makes us better. He has been an amazing
headphones that have Sony drivers mounted inside of them, and inspiration in creating the new Roland TD-50X and especially, the
I have used them on the last few tours. The reason I went to those new digital hi-hat.
is because in a lot of the larger venues there is still a lot of low BV: I gotta say thanks to Roland because they are making my life
frequencies rolling around, and that was leaking into my in-ear much easier!
mix. The gun muff phones cut out a lot of that low end rumble and MD: We are going to move on and talk to Butch Vig “the producer.”
tightens up my mix considerably. It doesn’t look as cool, but I am I‘m not even sure where to start this conversation, because
more concerned with making my monitor mix sound great. you have produced so many legendary recordings, and great
MD: Do you use the GK Ultraphones, those are the gun muff drummers. But let’s start with some conceptual stuff first. In my
phones that have the Sony drivers mounted in them, made by past I have worked with and interviewed several talented music
drummer Gordy Knudsen. I use them and swear by them. producers. In this time, I have heard the sentiment that rock and roll
BV: I think those are the ones that I use. I have been playing music is a “producer’s medium” many times. Do you agree with this?
for 40 years, and I have always been
very cautious about my ears. I always
have -15 dB filters in my pocket that Butch and bassist Eric Avery
I can pop in if I am in an overly loud
environment. Therefore, I try to keep
my mix on stage relatively quiet. Now
with those headphones I can play a
two-hour show and have absolutely
no ear fatigue.
MD: How are your ears in general?
BV: Pretty good, occasionally I get a
bit of ear fatigue after long days in a
studio. I resist the temptation to crank
up a mix in the studio. When the
band or the record company wants
to crank up a new song because they
are excited to hear it, I usually leave
the room and get a cup of coffee. If
I get really tired, I might have a little
ring in my left ear, but it dissipates if
I lay off of the coffee, get some rest,
don’t drink too much wine, and lay off
of the loud music.
MD: Have you used the TD-50X on a
lot of records yet?
BV: The new Silversun Pickups

Steve Jennings
record Physical Thrills just came out
last week, and we recorded some of
the drums here at my house on the
TD-50X. We spent time tracking the
entire record, and then we brought
the tracks here and added drums.
Amazingly, once we finished each
drum track it was almost like we had a completed master because BV: Rock and roll is the combination of an attitude that is
the drum sound was already treated with compression and mixed with a song that (hopefully) has great lyrics. Those lyrics
ambience within the TD-50X. There are three or four songs on that can be powerful, they can get you excited or motivated, they
new record that had the new TD-50X. can challenge you as a listener, or they can push your buttons
BV: There were six songs from the last Garbage record No Gods No emotionally in a way you can connect with. It seems simple in
Masters that were all TD-50X. I still have a DW kit set up in a room theory to record a rock band, mic up the guitar, bass, and drums,
here at home, but to be honest, my home recording studio room is with maybe some keyboards, and a hit record. But sonically what
a rectangle room with drywall, and no sound treatment, it’s pretty can be done in a studio is incredible. The way that sounds and
trashy sounding. It’s the room where I watch Packer’s football sonic space can be manipulated, and how the listener perceives
games, it is NOT (!!!) a “sonic temple.” When I play an acoustic kit in all of that is extremely powerful. That is why I like to walk into
there, I think ‘this room sounds like shit!’ But when I play my TD-50 a recording studio every day. The studio is not a mystery, it’s an
kit, I think, ‘wow this room sound amazing.’ adventure. Every time I go into the studio to record something, and
IL: I am so happy that Butch agreed to do this interview, without I think it is going to go in a certain direction, something happens.
musicians like him, we don’t exist. Artists like him propel us at That means that something goes in a completely unexpected

October 2022 Modern Drummer 23

 direction, and hopefully that will be for the better. Some of that is thinking to force myself to go into a new territory.
the unpredictability that comes from artists. Sometimes they have Being a drummer, I was always obsessed with the sounds of
no idea where they are going to go on any given day, but that drums. I didn’t have any formal drum training, I never went to
unpredictability is the excitement for me. a recording school, and I never apprenticed at a studio. I did
I grew up listening to classic rock in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. everything by trial and error. Duke Erikson (from Garbage) and I
My mom was a music teacher, and she loved the Beatles. But were in a band called Spooner, and we worked with another local
she also loved Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass, Nat “King” Cole, band called Shoes. They were a luscious power pop band. We
Barbara Streisand, and Frank Sinatra. When I started falling in recorded the first Spooner album with guitarist Gary Klebe (from
love with rock and roll, I was listening to The Who, and I couldn’t Shoes) producing, and he sort of mentored me. While we were
figure out what was going on, it was this crazy chaos. But the recording, I asked a ton of questions. I probably annoyed him, but
production on those Who records was unbelievable. The first time he was patient, and he answered my questions, and that’s how I
that I heard “Pinball Wizard” I couldn’t figure out what was going learned.
on. Townshend was strumming the acoustic panned hard right, a Steve Marker and I started Smart Studios in 1984 in a warehouse
distorted guitar was with an eight-
panned hard left with track recorder and
tons of reverb. Then some really cheap
Keith Moon and John recording gear. We
Entwistle put down had a big room that
this pulsing groove. we deadened with a
The production always thousand egg carton
fascinated me. The flats to deaden up the
Beatles and George drywall. It didn’t sound
Martin (of course) particularly good, but
pushed the bar so the bands that came in
high that we are all still didn’t sound that good
emulating (to some either. We recorded a
extent) what they did in bunch of scruffy punk
the ‘60s. bands that had never
In college, I cut been in a studio and
my teeth listening to didn’t know what they
glam and new wave were doing. But we
bands. I was a huge didn’t know what we
Roxy Music fan. I were doing either. We
loved Chris Thomas, all learned together.
he was the producer Because I was
who produced the raised on pop music,
Sex Pistols, XTC, and I always want records
The Pretenders first to sound focused. I
album, which is genius. tell that to bands all of
the time, whether it’s
Steve Jennings

I loved the fact that

you could put on 10 lyrically, arrangements,
records from the late performance,
‘70s or early ‘80s and whatever… I like things
they would all sound to be focused. Early in
completely different. my career as a producer
The production was I got to work with
amazing, there was an bands like Killdozer
endless palette that and Tar Babies, and
could be explored those records are
and tapped into in the what led directly to
studio. That’s when I decided I wanted to be a producer. Walking me working with Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins. Billy Corgan
into a recording studio is such a thrill for me, and that’s why I keep and Kurt Cobain reached out to me because there was “something”
doing it after all of these years, it’s always an adventure. happening on those records that they were interested in.
MD: What do you consider to be your style of production, or do you MD: Did you play drums in Spooner?
even think that you have a style? BV: I played drums, and Duke Eriksen from Garbage played guitar
BV: I don’t know if I am the best person to answer that. I try to and was the lead vocalist. We did several DIY recordings with
capture the essence of the artist that I am working with. There are Spooner. I think because I was exposed to so much different music
some drum sounds and guitar tones that I gravitate towards. The early on, that I never felt that any kind of music had to sound a
mixing sensibilities that I gravitate towards are probably not all certain way. I remember wondering, “Why can’t a punk record have
that obvious to me, because it’s just the way that I hear music, and a string section? Why can’t a Killdozer record have the vocals mixed
how music makes sense to me. That might be a good thing or a bad up really loud and in your face?” Hearing all of the different styles
thing, who knows… Sometimes I do have to deconstruct my own of music early on informed me that you could do anything that you

24 Modern Drummer October 2022

wanted in the studio as long as it made sense for the artist that you sound was pretty dead. There were some fantastic records made in
were working with. My job is to help the artist find and achieve the ‘70s, and I happen to believe that 1971 was the single greatest
their vision. year for music ever, but that is a whole different discussion.
MD: How much time do you spend trying to find the perfect room All of those classic rock bands were gods, we all put them on
for a band to record in? pedestals. But I felt a kinship to the new punk and new wave bands,
BV: I don’t know if I try to find the “perfect” room. But I do think I was a part of that. That led me to get really obsessed with Steve
it’s really important to find the room that will have the vibe that Lillywhite’s gated drum sounds, because he was the first one to
the record needs to have. A studio creates the psycho-acoustic really crank up the room mics. His drum sounds were so “vibey.” The
space that a listener perceives in a track. That space is where the first thing that I learned was you had to put drums into a big space
listener is going to place that band and that song. I have been lucky to get a big sound. You had to manipulate the drums in a big space
enough to record in some fantastic rooms. I live in L.A., and there to get that sound.
are some great rooms to record drums here. East West Studio 2 is a MD: What were some of your favorite Lillywhite drum recordings?
great sounding room, it’s kind of bullet proof. I can put room mics BV: I love the work that he did with U2. I saw U2 at a club in
anywhere in that room and my job is done. Madison called Merlin’s, everybody played there. But when I saw
I call recording studios “sonic temples.” I tell young bands and them, Steve Lillywhite was there recording the show, he was
engineers that they need to go into as many of those sonic temples recording the whole tour. Steve Marker (from Garbage) was a
as they can and record. There is a reason that so many great records bouncer at Merlin’s, so he let me in for their soundcheck, and I just
have been made at Capitol, United, Ocean Way, or The Power started talking to Steve Lillywhite. He taught me about gates and
Station. Part of what makes your favorite albums sound so killer is how you can set the release times for the tempo of the song and
the sound and the vibe of those rooms. Those rooms created and trigger them from bass and snare drums. The next day I went out
captured magic. and bought a cheap Dynamite Compressor-Noise Gate, and we
Sure, everyone has computers now, and they have tons of started using it at Smart Studios. We had already bought a used
drum samples and loops. You can make incredible music in your plate reverb from a studio in Chicago and one of the first digital
bedroom, your song can go viral, and millions of people can hear reverbs; so we ran those sounds through the Dynamite Noise Gate.
it in 24 hours. But I feel more young musicians and engineers have Drummers loved it and started to ask me what I was doing, my
to go into one of these kick ass “sonic temples” and create some reply was, “I’m ripping off Steve Lillywhite!”

When we made the first Garbage record, I approached it differently.

We started using samples and loops and really processing
everything that we recorded in the studio.
music. They can actually learn from the room. The first time that I When I did the Killdozer record Twelve Point Buck, the band let me
ever walked into The Power Station, I hit a snare drum and thought, go crazy with drum sounds. I used those reverbs and that gate a
“Holy shit, this is the best snare drum sound that I have ever heard.” lot. I got some great ambience on those drum sounds. But those
I had never been in Sound City before I worked there. But when I sounds were perfect for the band and their music because a lot of
walked in for the first time, I heard that room and I saw that vintage their tunes were really slow and there was a lot of space between
Neve console, I knew it was something special. I knew the records the notes.
that had been done there: Tom Petty, Fleetwood Mac, and scores of MD: I know some producers are more arrangers, some are more
others. But Sound City didn’t have a fancy lounge, a bunch of cool psychologists, some are more engineers, and some are organizers.
outboard gear, or even a great collection of mics. It was just a great What type of producer are you?
sounding room! BV: When I started out, I was all of that. I was making production
MD: I know you are a gear head and a great producer, so what are decisions, I was getting snare drum sounds, I was making sure the
some of your favorite drum sounds and go-to drums? What are the vibe between the band members was cool, I was making the coffee,
drum sounds that you hear in your head? I was doing everything. As I have developed as a producer, I like
BV: When I heard Keith Moon, I stopped playing piano, and started to have an engineer now so I can focus on the song and the vibe,
playing drums. I realized very quickly that I wasn’t Keith Moon and I have worked with a bunch of great engineers. But I mostly
(laughs), but I could get close to the style of Ringo and Charlie Watts work with Billy Bush, our engineer with Garbage, because we don’t
drumming. Therefore, I would put on Beatles and Stones records even have to speak, he knows intuitively what I am thinking. He
and play along. That’s how I learned to play drums. As the Beatles fixes problems before I even know they exist. His presence allows
developed, and George Martin and Geoff Emerick started paying me more time to listen to the sounds and the performance and be
more attention to the drum sounds through using different mics, more of a psychologist with the band. However, I still get in there
compression, and eq, I started to pay attention to how Ringo’s and tweak drum sounds. I usually have drummers tune their snares
drums sounded. That is where it started for me, I became obsessed down, you won’t find many high-pitched snare sounds on my
with drum sounds. When I really felt like I was getting an idea of recordings. I like thick snare sounds. But it all depends on the song.
how different rooms sounded was in the ‘80s. The ‘70s had some If a song is faster, sometimes the snare does have to have a higher
great drum sounds that were very clean in the mix, but the overall pitch, so the transients and the sustain of the snare tone don’t

October 2022 Modern Drummer 25

 create a lag in the tempo of the song. Everything really is dictated a choice of toms too. He has some that are more dialed back,
by the song. and some that are more lively. He does the same with cymbals.
MD: Every engineer, and many producers, have specific snare Sometimes you want cymbals that will cut, and sometimes you
drums that they love. What are your go-to snare drums, and what need cymbals that will blend and sound a bit softer. I’ll often
are some of your favorite snare drum sounds? tell Billy to use ribbons instead of condenser microphones as
BV: My favorite snare and bass drum sound is “When the Levee overheads because I want a softer cymbal sound. But it all depends
Breaks.” I guess Andy Johns did that with three or four mics, and on the track. Your microphone choice will always dictate how the
he created that little slap-back delay, man that is just so good. drum kit sounds.
But so much of that sound is John Bonham playing drums, the MD: How about favorite mics?
dynamics of the drummer are so much of the drum sound, people BV: My favorite kick drum mics are D12s, Fet 47s, and RE20s.
tend to forget that. Throughout the years, drummers have come Back in the Smart Sound days my go to snare drum mics were (of
into a project and asked me to get their drums to sound like John course) Shure 57s. I like to use AKG 451s as long as the drummer
Bonham or Dave Grohl, and my response is always, “Well, you’re isn’t pounding the hi-hats too much. If he is, I’ll pop up a Beyer
not John Bonham or Dave Grohl.” But on the other hand, it’s cool 160 Ribbon that is very forgiving with the hi-hat. Billy and I like to
when drummers say that because it gives me a reference point use a Telefunken MD 80 because it’s a little more hyper-cardioid
from which to start. In those cases, I listen to how that particular with a tighter pattern and is more “hi-fi” sounding than a 57. That
drummer plays, and has become my default
what the song sounds snare drum mic. I used
like. Then we can make to always default to
adjustments to create Sennheiser 421s on toms,
a great drum track that but Steve Albini gave me
everyone is happy with a tip on Josephson E 22s
and that sounds like Condensers, and I really
that particular band or like them.
drummer. MD: Without giving away
MD: How about specific any of your secrets, what
snares? other things do you rely
BV: I have an older on in the studio to get
“nothing fancy” Yamaha great drum sounds?
steel 6.5x14 snare that BV: I like to make bass
came with my Yamaha drum tunnels. That is
Recording drums back when I’ll take another
Steve Jennings

in the ‘80s. Jimmy bass drum shell and put

Chamberlain used that packing blankets over
on part of Gish, and we it so I can mic the bass
call it the Gish snare. drum close, and I can also
There are some specific put another mic (usually
overtones in that drum a Fet 47) out away from
that sound wonderful. the drum as the low
He also used a fantastic end develops for more
Gretsch snare on Gish. I thump. But the tunnel
take that Yamaha drum will prevent a lot of
to all of my sessions, cymbal bleed, especially
it has 42 strand snare if you are in a really loud
wires, and even if I room. We used that on
deaden it down, it has a Dave Grohl’s bass drum
great transient pop to it. on Nevermind. It’s a great trick if you want to bring the kick drum up
I have a Dunnett Titanium snare that Tre Cool gave to me that and not have the cymbals come up, too.
sounds fantastic. I have a wood Gretsch drum that I like, I have Years ago, I was recording young drummers that didn’t have
a few DW snares that I use a lot. Of course, I have a 6.5 Ludwig a whole lot of dynamics on the hi-hat so I built a “hi-hat baffler.”
Supraphonic that I like a lot. I have a ‘70s Black Beauty, but I have Believe it or not, I would take two pizza boxes, and put one under
found that the Black Beauty can be temperamental. When I go into the bottom hi-hat cymbal, and one above the top hi-hat cymbal. I
a session, I like to have six to ten snare drums that I can choose would Velcro the edges together, so they didn’t touch the cymbals,
from. My drum tech Mike Fasano has a drum that we call “Big Red” then I’d make a cutout for the drummer to play in. It was really
that was used on Guns and Roses “November Rain,” and it just weird and super ugly, and all the drummers freaked out and didn’t
sounds huge. That’s a great drum. Mike also has a Gretsch kit that I like it, but it cut about 80% of the hi-hat bleed out. I used that for
use the kick and toms. two years at Smart Sound, and amazingly one of the bands stole it.
MD: Wolfgang Van Halen mentioned that kit to me because he MD: I know everyone always asks you about Nevermind, but you
used it on the Mammoth record. made another all-time classic record more recently that I want to
BV: Mike usually brings ten snare drums to a session for me, and ask you about. I have watched the documentary about making the
then I’ll bring four and that will provide me with enough choices. Foo Fighters Wasting Light, but what else can you tell me about
He knows what snares I like. Sometimes he’ll provide me with making that record? Because when I first heard it, I knew it was an

26 Modern Drummer October 2022

all-time classic. used my standard mic setup with a D12 on the kick, a 57 or a 451
BV: We had a lot of fun making that record! Dave first approached on the snare, 421s on toms, and AKG 414s as overheads. Then after
me and said he wanted to make a record in his garage studio, and Jimmy and Billy tracked, we went back and overdubbed everything.
I thought that was a cool idea. Then he told me that he wanted to That record took a lot of people by surprise because the Pumpkins
make it on tape, and my heart sank a little bit, as I had moved into got lumped into the alternative rock scene, and Gish was sort of
the digital world using Pro Tools. But I have made thousands of prog-rocky. There were down tempo tunes, lush slow songs, and
records on tape so that was fine, but what tape means is this. It’s all some were like crazy metal. There are some great grooves on that
about performance! You can’t fix things on tape like you can in Pro record. The pattern on “I Am One” was the first thing we tracked,
Tools, but the band was totally up for it. They knew that they would and that is a signature type of groove. That was an incredible
have to do takes and takes and takes until we got it right, and that’s record to make. Gish came out about six months before Nirvana’s
what we did. Nevermind did. I started to get a lot of calls from artists and labels
To me, Wasting Light is the record that sounds the most like the because they heard Gish.
Foo Fighters. That record really sounds like what the Foo’s are live MD: You also did the Pumpkins Siamese Dream too, how did things
in terms of tones, vibe and feel. It’s a little rougher sounding than evolve from Gish to Siamese Dream?
some of their other records, but I love it! BV: We did Siamese Dream in Atlanta at Triclops. They had a big
It breaks my heart that Taylor is gone. Besides being an tracking room and a vintage Neve board. We went there to try and
incredible drummer and just going for it 100% on every single take, get the band away from any bad influences. Therefore, we didn’t
he was so much fun to work with, and such a sweet guy. Taylor and want to go to NY, Chicago, or L.A. We thought Atlanta would be
Dave were joined at the hip. In some ways Taylor was the heart and a safe haven, but it wasn’t, Jimmy Chamberlin was getting into
soul of the Foos. Taylor was really excited when he heard how we trouble from day one. We really pushed the envelope sonically on
were going to do Wasting Light to tape because he hated when we that record, and we worked really hard. We tracked for five months,
would Pro Tool his drum parts. He took real pride in the fact that and for the last three months we tracked seven days a week. We did
he didn’t have to be edited. He would play a part and although that record before Pro Tools, so I did a good deal of tape editing on
it might not have been perfect, he didn’t want it to be edited. He it.
would rather do the entire take again, he always wanted to nail it! MD: I was just going to ask you if you were good at chopping tape?
At least once a year Taylor would text me and tell me that he was BV: Yes! I was an excellent tape chopper. I could really slice and
listening to Gish and ask me all of these geeky drum sound and dice to get the best performances. On the rehearsals for the song

On that tour we also started putting the plexiglass shield around the drums to deal
with some of the cymbal wash. It helped with leakage, but it also reflected
and pointed all of the cymbal sound right back at me.
drum questions about it. He loved that record. I really miss him and “Mayonnaise,” I tapped out the BPM, but when we recorded it,
I can’t even believe he’s gone. Billy wanted to play it 4 BPMs slower, so it would sound a little
MD: I gotta admit, I was obsessed with Wasting Light for about four dreamier. But every time they played it, it would be faster by the
years, and then I just had to stop. Then when Taylor died, I went end of the first verse. I set up a click on a Roland drum machine,
back to it again. It might sound like sacrilege, but I think that is this but every bar got a little faster, and then Jimmy would pull it back,
generation’s Led Zeppelin IV. and it wouldn’t sound very good. So I went through and chopped
BV: I’m sure he’d be happy to hear you say that. out all the sections where Jimmy would slow it down. There were
MD: Talk to me about recording Smashing Pumpkins and Jimmy about 200 micro snare edits on the track, but Billy liked the way it
Chamberlin and Gish. felt. However, because there were so many edits, I had to transfer
BV: I was blown away by how the band looked the first time I met the drum tracks to another tape for safety concerns, and when we
them. They looked like freaks, and I loved that. Billy and I clicked mixed it, I had to sync up the tape with the drum track and a slave
right away. We have a great relationship, we really pushed and reel with the rest of the track. It was a pretty lengthy process, but
complimented each other in a lot of ways. Then I heard Jimmy play, when you listen the song, it had a fantastic groove.
and I was floored, he is a monster. We cut Gish at Smart Studios MD: What was it like working on Green Day’s 21st Century
when Studio A was in its first incarnation. The room was pretty live Breakdown?
with irregularly shaped drywall with some pretty loud and intense BV: Tre Cool has the fastest hi-hat hand that I have ever worked
diffusion going on. When we cut the songs for Gish, Jimmy and with! He can play those fast eighth notes consistently, and tight as
Billy tracked together with Billy playing rhythm guitar and Jimmy hell at 200 BPM. I can’t maintain that tempo for very long. And his
playing drums. They had a very specific thing when they played. It feel on those tempos is killer. But so much of their groove is driven
was very push and pull. The front of the bar pushed, and the back by Billie Joe’s rhythm guitar playing. Tre is a real drum nerd. They
of the bar pulled back a little. have a complex up in Oakland, and he keeps 60 or 70 sets, and tons
Jimmy has a great sense of dynamics, and he’s not a super of snares, and thousands of cymbals there. But he knows every
hard hitter. I didn’t have to baffle the hi-hat, and he really played piece of gear that he has. That meant that we had a lot of sound
dynamically and very consistently. He made my job easy. I think I options when we went in to record. We did a lot of pre-production

October 2022 Modern Drummer 27

 at their complex, and then at a studio in Newport Beach. So by the with Dave playing a guitar thing, then it goes into a swing thing,
time we were tracking at Ocean Way, it went really fast. We tracked the second part is a funk thing, and then at the end it explodes into
for about seven weeks, it was a really old-school way of doing this big floor tom groove. I was prepared to cut the song in sections
things. I think that album is epic sounding, Billie Joe is such a great so I could cut up the tape and create a take. But that was a call to
songwriter. arms for Taylor. He did not want me to have to edit his drum part
MD: You have mentioned tempo a few times, how involved to you together! They went for the first take, and Taylor completely nailed
get in establishing the “perfect” tempo for a tune? it. I was on the edge of my seat for the whole take, the hair was
BV: When I go into pre-production with a band, I don’t use a click. standing up on the back of my neck, and they got through it, and I
I mark the tempo of the different sections of the tunes, and then said, “Taylor I think you nailed it.” They came into the booth to listen
more often than not, I will use a tempo map. I did this with the Foos to it, and Taylor had this big shit eating grin on his face. It is the first
on Wasting Light. I don’t care if different sections of a tune are at track on the record, and he was so proud of the fact that he nailed
slightly different tempos, as long as it feels good. And personally, I that really hard song in one take, and I am so happy to tell that
think drum fills sound best when they rush a little bit. I like to make story.
the grid fit the band. That drives my engineer Billy crazy because he MD: What can you tell me about your band 5 Billion In Diamonds.
has to deal with that when he is editing. BV: We have two albums out. That band’s music is really informed
What I did with the Foos and Taylor is I would have the click by ‘60s and ‘70s film soundtracks. The two DJ’s in the band James
coming from a drum machine, and I’ll program the different Grillo and Andy Spaceland love that time period of music. All three
tempos in the machine next to each other, and when the tempo of us are huge fans of film music. I probably listen to film music
change happens for a chorus or a verse, I change the tempo on the scores as much as I listen to pop and rock music. There is so much
drum machine by manually changing the pattern. That puts some wonderful “non-traditional” soundtrack music being created these
pressure on me because I have to make the change at the right days. In the beginning, film soundtracks were orchestral, then
time, a split second before the downbeat of the next section, and that began to change in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. Today you can
Taylor never knew I was doing it. But, again, in the end the songs create a soundtrack with Sound Design. It’s like pop music is today,
felt great and that’s what counts. it’s a hybrid, you can take elements from anywhere and as long as it
There is a tempo where a song flows effortlessly. Sometimes one creates a mood or an emotion it’s going to work.
BPM either way can make a big difference. It affects the way the MD: What is some of your favorite soundtrack music?
drummer, the rhythm guitarist, or the vocalist will play their parts. BV: I’m a huge fan of John Barry, I love Giorgio Moroder, I love
Sometimes a song might work at one tempo instrumentally, but the music of John Carpenter films, he actually did a lot of his own

We recorded a bunch of scruffy punk bands that had never been

in a studio and didn’t know what they were doing. But we didn’t know
what we were doing either. We all learned together.
when the vocals are added, it doesn’t work. A tempo has to work scoring. He’s really minimalist. He did the score for The Thing, and I
with the whole band. So to answer your question, YES I do get love it. One of my favorite scores is Quincy Jones’ score for In Cold
pretty obsessive with tempos! Blood.
When I did Let Your Dim Light Shine with Soul Asylum, Sterling MD: You have another band called The Emperors of Wyoming,
Campbell played drums, he is a super powerful drummer. On the what’s that about?
last day that we were in the studio we listened back to a track that BV: That is a project that came through file sharing with some
we had done weeks before called “Misery.” I asked the band to go of my old friends. We were sending files between all of the guys
back in and recut the tune. They were shocked, they thought they because we are all in different places.
were done recording, but that tune just didn’t feel right to me. MD: How do you sequence (arrange the order of the tunes) on a
They re-did it, and it wound up being the lead track on the record. I record? I think that is a bit of a lost art.
cracked the whip at the eleventh-hour and it worked. BV: That’s a very important thing to me as well. I still listen to
MD: On the Foo Fighters Sonic Highways, in which every tune was records all of the way through, and I still believe that is how records
done at a different studio, how did you manage to create a sonic should be listened to because that is how artists make them. I
continuity from track to track? realize that people like you and I are anomalies, because many
BV: That has to do with James Brown who was the engineer and people don’t even listen to entire tracks anymore. When I make
how he made the room ambience match from track to track. That a record, I want it to be a listening experience. I still like the vinyl
record was an adventure, because (as you said) the environments experience, but I wish more people would listen to the music as it
were all different, some of them weren’t even studios. was intended to be heard.
The first track that we cut for Sonic Highways was done at Steve MD: You have an interesting “position” in Garbage because here
Albini’s Electrical Audio in Chicago. Steve built an incredible drum you are this influential producer, and you are also a member of a
room using imported bricks from New Mexico (or someplace?) Like successful band.
the Power Station, it is an idiot-proof drum room. When we were BV: When I am producing the Foos or the Pumpkins it is their music,
tracking “Something from Nothing” there were some really tricky and it’s my job to help them find their vision and motivate them to
parts and some hard transitions. It’s a complicated song. It starts get great performances. I approach Garbage completely differently.

28 Modern Drummer October 2022

When I am in Garbage, I can be a drummer, I can be songwriter, I then I’ll go in and put the live drums down at the end. I did that
can play guitar or keyboards, I can engineer, I can order lunch or on the new Silversun Pickups album Physical Thrills too. By doing
open a bottle of wine. However, everyone in the band can do any it that way, I can tell how the drums are supposed to sound. I think
of those things. We swap the roles in the band on any given day, it when you have a track that is pretty fully formed, it is easier to get
keeps things really fresh. the drum sound. I think the same is true of bass sounds too. When
When we write a tune, it usually starts with a beat. Whether the track is fully formed you can tell how much top end or grit you
that beat comes from me playing a live kit, or me programming a want from the bass. I know that sounds completely backwards, but
loop, or bringing in a sample that we’ll play over. The exciting thing that is what I have been doing lately.
about Garbage is there are no rules, and every song starts from a MD: Do you have any cymbal preferences?
different place. Since we BV: The hi-hat is the most
came back from our hiatus important cymbal to
in 2012, I feel like our songs me. That (and the ride) is
are more lyric driven. We where I keep time. I’m not
are trying to taper the too fussy with crashes.
song to match the vibe of Sometimes I like crashes
Shirley’s vocals. On No Gods to cut through, but usually
No Masters although there I like them to sit back in
are different drum sounds the mix and not stick out
and different textures on too much. Especially in
every song, the thread of Garbage, there is already
continuity that we were so much information
talking about before, going on sonically that
comes from Shirley’s vocals. I don’t need cymbals to
MD: How does your take up that much space.
producer hat influence your I do like using ribbon mics
band member hat? on crashes because I feel
BV: Sometimes the band like they have a softer
does look to me to have an top end, and you can put
opinion or guide a song, them louder in the mix
especially if we have hit a without them ripping your
creative wall. I probably head off.
step in more when we Mike Fasano found a
disagree on a part or a vibe. great pair of hi-hats for
MD: Which brings me a while back. They are
me to this question. Ludwig cymbals. One is
As a producer, as a from the ‘50s, and one is
bandmember, and as a from the ‘60s, and they
drummer, how do you sound great because there
know when something is is no high end overtones
done? in them. They are so old
BV: When the budget runs and dull that that there
out! Ha! No, that is a great are no overtones left, and
question. As a producer they sit perfectly in a mix.
I am very conscious of MD: What drummer
Steve Jennings

staying within a bands haven’t you worked with

budget and timeframe. that you would like to
With Garbage I am guilty work with in the future?
of a lot of tweaking. I am BV: I’m so lucky to have
a tweaker. I like to go in worked with so many
and sonically manipulate great drummers: Dave
things. Whether it’s with plug-ins, or routing stuff out to stomp Grohl, Jimmy Chamberlin, Taylor Hawkins, Steve Shelley from Sonic
box pedals. Duke, Steve, and I like to do what we call “lab rat days.” Youth, Dom from Muse is phenomenal, Adam from AFI, Tre Cool,
That’s when we just go in and mess around in the studio all day. Sterling Campbell is total bad-ass, Keltner is the bomb, Omar Hakim
More often than not, Shirley is the one in Garbage that says when is fantastic and has such a great vibe behind the kit.
the song is finished. Duke, Steve, and I have a tendency to keep I’ll tell you this, when you work with a great drummer, it makes
adding more and more, but sometimes we have to tell ourselves to a producer’s job much easier. I’m the luckiest guy in the world to
strip things back a bit and let the track breathe. have worked with all of those great drummers.
MD: When you aren’t using your TD-50X, and you are recording real MD: No, we are the luckiest people in the world to hear you talk
acoustic drums, what drums do you use? about the art of making and recording music. Thanks!!!!
BV: I have a DW kit here, I have my “Gish” and the Dunnett snares
here as well. I usually add the real drums last on Garbage tunes.
We’ll often record to a loop, and get everyone else’s parts done, and Check out Butch’s drummer profile page, at
modern drummer.com
October 2022 Modern Drummer 29
 The Toadies:
Mark “The Rez” Reznicek By Jeff Ryan

30 Modern Drummer October 2022

 I
f you could go back in time and turn on the radio or walk into any
coffee shop, bar, or restaurant in the mid 90’s; I guarantee you that
the probability of hearing any of the standout tracks from The
Toadies debut album Rubberneck would be extremely high. However,
it wasn’t just the Billboard and MTV chart topper “Possum Kingdom”
that you’d hear, but it was also the equally strong songs “Tyler”, “Away”,
“Backslider” and “I Come From The Water” that made you realize that
there was something special about this four-piece band from the
dusty metropolis from Fort Worth, TX. There was also something
unique and interesting about the precise and powerful playing of
their drummer, Mark Reznicek, also known as “The Rez”.
Mark has been propelling this quartet for over 30 years and his
grasp on melody and the structure of the material, despite the ebbing
and flowing between time signatures, seems effortless. He makes all
the songs groove with a lead foot heaviness that is absolutely rock
solid without being overbearing. There’s an infectious quality to his
playing due to him being so locked into every nuance of the song.
He never just settles on a standard rock pattern. You just can’t help
tapping along when Toadies songs come on the radio, and by the
way, they are still played on the radio....A LOT!
The Toadies’ popularity seems to have no boundaries. They are
about to embark on a two-month tour across the country to celebrate
the 25th Anniversary of Rubberneck which has gone both Gold and
Platinum. They’ve also created their own annual festival called Dia De
Los Toadies which takes place in and around Fort Worth, TX. Adding
to their rock-icon status, the hit single “Possum Kingdom” is featured
as a playable track on the Xbox 360 game Guitar Hero II. Let’s face it,
once your songs are starting to be featured in play along video games
you’ve definitely reached a level of success that’s achieved by only a
certain few.
Having been friends with Mark since the late 90’s, I’ve been lucky
enough to play a ton of shows with him and his band over the years,
so it was great to spend some time with him and chat about drums
and all things Toadies, and what it has been like to be in the band for
over 30 years. We also talked about his drumming inspirations and his
side gig as the co-creator and writer for the comic book series Buzzkill.

MD: It’s quite an accomplishment to have done this for over 30 years, how does it feel to have
played drums professionally for that amount of time and to have made such a landmark album as
Rubberneck? It must feel great to have it stand up to the test of time so that audiences around the
Jarrod Anthonee

world are still waiting for you to come celebrate the 25th anniversary of that album?
Terry Jenkins

MR: It’s kinda weird to think that I’ve been playing drums for a living for almost three decades now!
I quit my office job in August of 1993, and we left to go record Rubberneck a week or two later. It’s
amazing that I’ve been able to turn a passion into a career! And not only that, but to have recorded
what is now considered a “classic” album just blows my mind. At the time we were making that
album, our intention was to hopefully be able to tour for a year or so, if we were lucky, and then

October 2022 Modern Drummer 31

 presumably go back to some kind of day job. And now here we are out for the kids to play to test their aptitude. I grabbed my dad’s
29 years later! Surreal. Gratifying. Humbling. hand, and we made a beeline to the snare drums, and left with
MD: So, let’s step back a bit, and let me ask a bit about your a rented Ludwig snare that night! I played in the concert band,
background, how did you originally get into drumming? marching band, jazz band, swing choir, orchestra, etc. all through
MR: In 4th grade, my school (St. Bernadette’s Catholic School, junior high and high school. I attended high school in Cherokee,
Omaha, NE) decided to start a band department. I had wanted to Iowa, and we had an award-winning band department there. We
play drums after watching various Saturday morning TV shows won many contests on the state, national, and international level.
like The Banana Splits, The Archies, and The Monkees. Having grown Along the way, I played not just snare, but bass drum, timpani,
up during the 1960s, I idolized the Beatles, and especially Ringo. concert toms, cymbals, and even tuned percussion like glockenspiel

Thomas Moore

The drummer in those groups (like Jughead, or Bingo, or Mickey and vibraphones. Later, I even played in the marching band in my
Dolenz) was always the “funny one” in the band, and I wanted to go freshman year of college at Texas A&I University in Kingsville, TX.
on madcap adventures with my friends and play music afterwards MD: Was there anyone that influenced you at a young age or in your
(like the Beatles and the Monkees did). So when my school started formative years that inspired you to want to play drums?
a band department, I told my dad (who was a professional musician MR: As I mentioned, at a young age it was probably mainly Ringo
himself, playing sax and clarinet in various jazz, big band, and polka in the Beatles. But when I got my first full drum kit at age 15, I was
bands) and he encouraged it. We went to the showcase thing in really into the first Cars album, which had just come out. Their
the school cafeteria that night. They had all the instruments laid drummer, David Robinson, played deceptively simple beats that

32 Modern Drummer October 2022

complimented the songs. He was not show offy, but he was really the drummer is not the lead instrument, but more the foundation
cool. That was the lightbulb moment where I thought “I could for the other instruments to sit on. I want to accentuate and
do this!” I didn’t have to learn to play like Neil Peart or whatever enhance what the other instruments are doing without distracting
(an impossible goal!) I could use the basic skills that I had at the from them. I try to play what the song requires (like my hero, Ringo)
time. AC/DC’s drummer Phil Rudd also played in a non-showy, but without drawing undue attention to myself. I’ve never been much
solid and cool style too. So, I would play along to the first two Cars of a “look at me” type drummer, mainly because that’s not where my
albums, and AC/DC albums like Highway to Hell, Let There Be Rock, skills (such as they are) lie. Whatever I do, is in service to the song.
and Powerage. That was really how I learned to play a whole drum MD: Was it conscious to do that or did it just naturally happen?
kit, as opposed to just the snare drum. MR: I think it just happened naturally as a part of my ability and skill
set. I grew up in the first wave of

I would play along to the first two Cars the punk/new wave era, and that’s
just the style I was drawn to. I like

albums, and AC/DC albums like Highway playing beats and grooves more
than I enjoy playing lots of busy
to Hell, Let There Be Rock, and Powerage. fills. So I’ve always kind of focused
on playing what I feel the song
That was really how I learned to play a whole requires rather than trying to draw
attention to myself. I’m kind of an
drum kit, as opposed to just the snare drum. introverted, shy person in general,
and maybe that aspect of my
personality is reflected in the way
MD: With players like Earl Harvin (Seal, Psychedelic Furs), Bryan I play?
Wakeland (Tripping Daisy, Polyphonic Spree), Michael Jerome MD: I know you played Yamaha and Fibes kits for quite some time,
Moore (Course of Empire, Better Than Ezra), and yourself all around are you playing either of those now for this tour? If not, what are
us in the 90’s in Dallas, Denton, and Fort Worth, we were not short drums of choice these days?
on local players who were gifted and extremely talented. Was there MR: I have a nice ddrum kit they custom made for me, made out of
anyone local that inspired you or that you possibly took ideas from bubinga wood. They look and sound great. Prior to that I played a
after watching or listening to them play? Fibes kit, and I was playing Yamaha before that. And I have a Ludwig
MR: Wow, just being mentioned in the same sentence as those guys Black Beauty snare that I’ve been playing for 20 years or so.
is an incredible honor. I loved and looked up to all of them. Michael MD: Let’s drill down a little bit and can you tell me your drum head
Jerome Moore actually preceded me as a Toadies drummer, so I configuration as well as your cymbal setup for your upcoming tour?
definitely picked up a few things from him. But three guys who were MR: My tom sizes are 10”, 12” and 16”, and I have Evans heads on
my friends and contemporaries on the scene at that time were Ben the two rack toms and Remo on the floor. I use clear double ply
Burt with Brutal Juice, Will Johnson with Funland, and especially clear batter heads for the resonance and durability when I play live.
Steven Barnett with Baboon. They’re each very different types of On the 22” kick I have an Evans clear head. On the snare (6.5 x 14) I
drummers, but guys who I watched carefully and picked up some usually use a Remo coated Ambassador. I like coated on the snare
things from. because it’s more sensitive for little press rolls, accents, grace notes,
MD: What was the “moment” when you knew this was going to be and what-not.
the thing you did, at least for the foreseeable future? I generally go for big and loud cymbals. My cymbals are all
MR: I guess when we got signed to Interscope, it seemed like, at Zildjian. For the two crashes, I like to use large sizes, between 18 and
least for a little while, I was going to sink or swim making my living 20 inches. Our band is loud and I want something to cut through. I
as a drummer. Before that, we had released our EP Pleather on the think I currently have a 19” and 20”. They’re A-series crash cymbals.
New York-based indie label Grass Records (it was their first release, My ride is a 22” A Ping Ride. I’ve had that for many years, and it
in fact), and played a Grass showcase in New York City for the CMJ sounds great. My hi hats are 14” Ks, and they’ve also lasted a long
music conference. The other Grass artists on that showcase were time.
Sunbrain, Mousetrap, and Brainiac, who would all become friends of MD: Does head selection and / or cymbals differ for you between
ours. But we all still had the studio and your live
our day jobs to return I want to accentuate and enhance setup?
to, so the band was still MR: In the studio I like to
sort of a moonlighting, what the other instruments are use coated heads for their
second job kind of thing. greater sensitivity. As for
Once we signed to a doing without distracting from them. cymbals, sometimes we
major and quit our jobs, experiment with different
that’s when it seemed sizes and configurations
like what we’d all be doing for the foreseeable future. as the song requires. On one session, for the album Heretics, our
MD: I’ve always considered you to be an incredibly solid, powerful producer Rob Schnapf put two 16” crashes on the hi hat stand,
and melodic drummer. Meaning, not only do you drive the song, but which we ended up using as the hi hats for the whole session and
you follow the melody of what’s happening in the song as well. Was it sounded great! They were very sensitive to opening and closing,
that always the intention? which was perfect for that album, which mainly consisted of
MR: Yeah, I guess so. I’ve always sort of subscribed to this minimalist rearranged, partially acoustic versions of some of our older songs.
theory of drumming. When we’re writing/arranging songs, I tend to MD: During recording sessions with The Toadies, do other band
look for what I can remove rather than what I can add. In The Toadies members contribute ideas for your patterns?

October 2022 Modern Drummer 33

 MR: Yeah, that occasionally happens. We might all suggest various in the days leading up to it so I can warm up. I’ve been thinking of
things to the other players during recording. It’s a very collaborative getting an electronic kit or some mesh practice heads for home but
process generally with this band. I welcome any suggestions that haven’t decided yet.
will improve the overall song and recording. MD: What’s it like to have one of your most popular songs “Possum
MD: Is it a collaborative effort or are you solely responsible for all the Kingdom” have one bar in each verse that grooves in 7/8?
parts? MR: It’s cool that we’ve kind of become known for our odd time
MR: I guess ultimately, I’m responsible for my parts, but like I said, signatures. In the case of “Possum Kingdom,” when I knew I was
with the Toadies everybody’s parts are somewhat collaborative, and going to audition for the band, I tried to learn the two songs that
if someone has a suggestion or idea that’ll improve the song, then they had self-released on a cassette single: “Dig A Hole” and “I Hope
it’s pretty much always welcomed (there are occasional objections, You Die” (which will be reissued soon on vinyl for the first time!) I
but that’s pretty rare). And if it doesn’t work for me, I just won’t use also learned a few songs from a
the suggestion. No harm, no foul. And the same goes for everyone live recording bootleg cassette. It’s cool that
else. If I say, “Why not play that riff twice through instead of once,” That’s all that was available of
they’re welcome to use or reject my idea as they see fit. It’s fun and their music at the time! I showed The Toadies
all in service of making the song better. up and told the band that I’d
MD: As well as playing with The Toadies you were also the drummer learned a handful of their songs. have kind
for the Dallas country band, Eleven Hundred Springs, which showed
a whole different side to your playing and ability as a drummer. How
Vaden, the singer and main
songwriter said “We’re not gonna
of become
long were you in that band and what was that experience like?
MR: The Toadies went on indefinite hiatus in 2001. Put another way,
do any of that. Here’s a new one
I just wrote, it has a measure
known for
we broke up (which is too long and painful a story to go into here).
About a year later, my friends from Eleven Hundred Springs, Matt
of 7 then a measure of 8, and
just kinda goes back and forth
our odd time
Hillyer and Steve Berg, asked me to join their band. I welcomed the between them.” So the band signatures.
opportunity to play drums again, but I had a little trepidation as I’d started playing and I joined in
never really played Country Music before. They played a traditional with the most basic beat as just a placeholder until I figured out
style of country, rooted in the classic stuff from the 50s to the 70s. something “better”. And that “placeholder“ became the beat of the
And they’d often play two or three sets a night. That’s a LOT of songs song and got me the gig in the Toadies’ drummer’s seat. Cut to three
to learn, so the learning curve was STEEP! The various styles of beats or four years later, it’s all over MTV and leads to a platinum album
were a bit alien to my rock & roll sensibilities: swing, waltz, shuffle, and has become our signature song! What a trip!
two-step, four-on-the-floor, train beat, etc.) The first month or two MD: You make that part seamless though, it’s never seemed
were kinda rough, but I learned on the job and eventually became awkward or disjointed. Were you just following the melody?
somewhat proficient. It ended up being a blast! It was hard work MR: Yeah, I pretty much just listened to the band play the riff
for sure. We were BUSY in those days, four or five shows a week year through a couple times and jumped in with a basic beat, and that’s
round. We were working our asses off. But I learned more in that pretty much the way I play it to this day. One of the things I love
time than just about any time in my life. There was lots of room for about playing in this band is the unusual time signatures. And the
improvising under the guitar, fiddle, and pedal steel guitar solos. I fun and challenging part of that is to make them sound “normal” or
had some real musical ESP moments, like you would playing jazz. I whatever. Not herky-jerky or awkward. And that’s kinda become our
loved it! thing, not making a strange time signature stand out, so that people
That experience definitely made me a much better drummer, might not realize until closer inspection that a particular song might
and six years later when the Toadies reconvened, I was able to bring be in a weird time.
those newfound skills to bear in the context of the Toadies. I love MD: The Heretics album presented a different angle to previously
those guys in Eleven Hundred Springs, and I’ll always look back recorded songs, was it interesting for you to take a different
fondly on those days. approach and make those songs evolve in a way that maybe wasn’t
MD: Over the years, you and I have played a lot of shows together, expected, because it was so stripped down?
not once have I ever seen you miss a note or be without a beer in MR: Yeah, that was great fun, and for me a welcome change to
your hi hat holder. Tell me, what’s your secret? playing loud rock music. The way that album came about is we used

One of the things I love about playing in this band is the

unusual time signatures. And the fun and challenging part of
that is to make them sound “normal” or whatever.
MR: Obviously, the beer in the hi hat drink holder is the secret (wink to host a Texas music festival called Dia De Los Toadies for about 10
wink, nudge nudge). years. We would invite some of our favorite Texas artists to play an
MD: Seriously, what’s your practice regime away from the band? annual two-day festival in various locations around the state. On the
MR: I don’t really have much of a practice regime away from the first night, we’d have a smaller, more intimate set, almost acoustic,
band. I don’t even have a kit set up at home - my wife works from where we would radically rearrange some of our songs, rather than
home, and she often has to spend time on the phone, so it’s a little just play them “unplugged” (i.e. quieter on acoustic instruments).
impractical. But I do have a practice pad and sticks, so once I know It was always lots of fun. So, since a lot of our fans weren’t able
we have something coming up, whether it be gigs or studio time to make it to Texas to see this unusual happening, we decided to
or whatever, I will spend time playing on my practice pad at home record some of these rearrangements and take them on tour to

34 Modern Drummer October 2022

 different sorts of venues than the kind we’d normally play. Lots of grateful to all our fans for keeping up with us throughout all our ups
seated “listening rooms” as opposed to loud clubs or theaters. I and downs. I just feel incredibly lucky, and dare I say, blessed to be
loved it and relished the opportunity to play a little quieter and in a able to do this and have people still want to watch and listen!
different setting, both physically and musically. MD: As we’re chatting about this, you and I are about to play
MD: As is most often the case, we drummers tend to wear a few some shows together, which I’m very excited about, and then in
different hats in life, not only are you an accomplished drummer September you’ll embark on a two month tour around the country
but you’ve released and published a comic book series entitled to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of Rubberneck. What’s on the
BUZZKILL, can you tell us a bit more about that? horizon following this tour? What’s next for “The Rez”? The Toadies?
MR: I’ve been a fan of comic books my whole life, collecting and MR: The plan is to go into the studio in 2023 and record a new
reading them since childhood. My Twitter feed @realmarkrez has album. We’ve gotten together a few times already to learn new
probably more comics content than music. Anyway, at one point, songs that Vaden has written, as well as write and arrange more new
our tour manager, Wes Solem, introduced me to his old friend from songs, record demos, and so on. So that process is underway. Prior
school, Donny Cates. At that time, Donny was working as an intern to that, we have a new EP coming out called Damn You All To Hell. It’ll
at Marvel Comics in New York. We spent the evening chatting about probably be out right about the same time people are reading this.
comics and at the end of the night, he said he was planning to And we’ve also got an archival release or two on the way: the very
move back to Texas. He said he wanted to be a comic book writer first Toadies single, from 1990 (before I even joined the band) will
and if I ever had an idea for a comic, we could team up and write be released on vinyl for the first time. It was originally only released
Mike Brooks

one together. I eventually sent him a pitch for an idea I had. He liked as a self-financed cassette single and hasn’t been available in 30
it, we developed it, co-wrote it, found an artist, took it around to years or so. Sometime after that, our second album Hell Below/Stars
various publishers and eventually it got picked up by Dark Horse Above will finally get its first-ever vinyl release. As the band’s resident
Comics. In a nutshell, it’s the story of a guy who gets super-powers archivist, I’ve been helping our manager, Tami Thomsen oversee
from drinking alcohol and doing drugs (write what you know, I these projects and get them accross the finish line. I’m a record
guess?) But this eventually leads him to AA and rehab, whereupon collector and music fan myself, so I love doing stuff like that. There’s
he loses his powers. And that’s when all his enemies attack! The a lotta cool stuff on the horizon!
four-issue series was eventually compiled into a trade paperback
published first by Dark Horse and then by Image Comics. And Donny Jeff Ryan is a freelance contributor for Modern Drummer Magazine
went on to become Marvel Comics’ top writer! and On the Drums. He’s recorded and/or toured with St. Vincent, The
MD: Your fans are very devoted to The Toadies, did you ever War on Drugs, Daniel Johnston, Thao and The Get Down Stay Down,
think that in 28 years from that time of tracking those songs, that Motorcade, Keren Ann among many others. Jeff lives in Dallas, Texas.
audiences would know not only every word to these songs, but
every nuance of every song as well, including your drum parts?
MR: Never in my wildest dreams, man. It’s so cool. I’m forever Check out Mark’s drummer profile page,
at modern drummer.com
October 2022 Modern Drummer 35
 Cymbal Craftsman
Paul Francis
C y m b a l
The
h isp er e r
W
Mark Allee

36 Modern Drummer October 2022

D rummers play drums AND cymbals. Drums can sometimes be a
little utilitarian. Even when in the presence of the most special
of drums, some drummers have remarked, “A drum is a drum.” But
cymbals are special. They are personal, they have a mystery, a soul, and
are made by old world craftsmen. There are secret alloys, confidential
processes, family recipes, and myths galore in the world of cymbals.
There have even been websites devoted to many of these aspects of
cymbal making. But outside of the world’s biggest cymbal companies,
there is a growing number of independent cymbal smiths who started
to make a big sound in the late 70s and 80s. Legendary cymbal smiths
like Roberto Spizzichino, Mike Skiba, Craig Lauritsen, Matt Bettis, Matt
Nolan, Jesse Simpson, and Heather Stine have come to the forefront
of the independent cymbal world, and all of them have made or are
making very good instruments.
But last year the cymbal landscape shook a bit when Zildjian’s Head
of R&D was suddenly no longer working for Zildjian. What would
happen to all of those wonderful designs that he helped develop
in his 32 years with Zildjian? How about that lifetime of knowledge
and experience? Would he go to another of the cymbal giants and
pick up where he left off? Or would he become one of the newest
legendary independent cymbal smiths who could offer drummers
the personalized service that was once only available to the top flight
endorsers?
While Paul has nothing but good things to say about his 30+ year
run with his ex-employer, and he does not want to talk about their
parting of ways. We now have our answer in the name of his new
company Cymbal Craftsman. I (a self-confessed cymbalholic, and Paiste
endorser) have always wanted to pick Paul’s brain about all thing’s
cymbals. Because I don’t know of another person who knows more
about the Turkish tradition of cymbal making, music’s most famous
cymbals, and the art of making a cymbal, than CYMBAL CRAFTSMAN
Paul Francis.
Paul shares a lot of his cymbal making wisdom here, and he tells
us how a young drummer from Quincy, Massachusetts became
the cymbal whisperer. Modern Drummer is excited to share our
conversation, welcome back Paul!
October 2022 Modern Drummer 37
 MD: Congratulations on your new cymbal company, I have heard where they do “IT!” The factory manager had studied drums with
that you are making some beautiful instruments, but I want to go Dick DiCenso as well, so we small talked a bit about mutual friends,
back to the beginning. Cymbalholics around the world might know after the interview I felt like I was in like Flynn! No problem, I nailed
your name and massive reputation, but many drummers might not. it. Then he said, “I’m not going to hire you.” I was floored. He told
Can you walk us through how a kid from Quincy, Massachusetts me, “Drummers don’t get up in the morning, you’ll have a gig the
becomes one of the most influential and talented people in the night before, and you’ll call out stick, or be late, I know the deal.” I
cymbal business? replied, “Look I need a job, I will be here at whatever hour you tell
PF: Sure. I grew up in Quincy, Massachusetts and lived about two me to be here.” He told me that he would think about it. He went on
miles from the original Zildjian factory, it’s a little strange how the vacation for two weeks after my interview. For the next two weeks
universe works sometimes. I I called a woman named Agnes
started playing snare drum in human resources every day. I
at the age of 10, that’s how it really annoyed her. I called every
all started. At 11 I got a Kent day asking if a decision had been
drum set, I played all through made. They wound up calling the
school, and took drum lessons factory manager on his vacation
until I was 27 years old. When I to find out what to tell me. He
graduated high school, I headed finally relented and agreed to
to the Berklee College of Music. bring me in. When I reported
My parents wanted all of their on my first day, I remember my
kids to go to college. When I got excitement and thinking, “Wow
to Berklee, I realized that I didn’t I’m going to see the inside of Willy
want to be a music teacher, Wonka’s Chocolate Factory today.”
and while a performance They gave me a pair of safety
degree would be a great thing, glasses, a pair of white cotton
I realized that I could just study work gloves, and a broom. They
privately and just keep playing had me sweep the floors, because
as a professional drummer. they really didn’t have anything
After one-and-a-half semesters for me to do because the factory
I decided that I wasn’t going manager was still on vacation. I
to pursue a music education swept up, cleaned things and did
degree and become a music odd jobs around the factory until
teacher. the manager returned. I was too
I had already been studying little to work at the ovens, so I
with Dick DiCenso at Dick was taught how to lathe. I started
DiCenso’s Drum Shop in Quincy, learning on New Beat bottoms.
Massachusetts. I told Dick Those cymbals are so heavy that
that I wanted to play drums you can’t really mess them up.
for a living, he suggested I was a quick study and got the
that I should either go to LA hang of bottom lathing very
and study at PIT or go to NYC quickly and then I was taught to
and enroll in The Drummers lathe the more difficult cymbals
Collective. In 1988, I decided that Drummers Collective would be such as chinas and splashes. Later found out that it was very rare
my next step after studying with Dick. Brad Flickinger, who was for this to happen, but after a few months they taught me how to
running Drummers Collective auditioned me and really encouraged do top turning or what is also called finish lathing. I started with 16”
me to come there to study. I enrolled in Drummers Collective’s 10- Rock Crashes, and Medium Crashes, again because that was stuff
week program. At the Collective I studied with Frankie Malabe, Kim that you really couldn’t screw up. I picked it up pretty quickly, and
Plainfield, Ricky Sebastian, and Duduka De Fonseca, who is a dear after about six months I was a permanent Finish Lathe Operator.
friend now. I was lucky enough to study with THE heavyweights! Eventually I progressed to do the really thin stuff like Chinas,
After those 10 weeks I returned to Quincy and started looking for Splashes, and Thin and Paper-Thin Crashes. I did that for seven
a full-time playing gig situation. However, as a younger person, I was years, I loved it. I was part of “the process,” and it was an awesome
doing a lot of sleeping during the day and practicing all afternoon job. I lathed an average of 300 cymbals a day, meaning that I lathed
and night. My parents were very supportive, and they saw my around 525,000 cymbals in those seven years.
passion for drumming, but after about two weeks, my dad and mom Then a new vice president of manufacturing came in at the end of
said at dinner one night “Look, you either have to get a playing gig 1993. He came from the auto industry, and he set up a new quality
or get a day job. We are not having any unemployed musicians living control department and an R&D department. He was a real fan of
in the house.” At that point I contacted Dick DiCenso again, I told the Toyota production process. He helped Zildjian streamline their
him that I had completed the 10-week program at the Collective. process and allowed the employees to have even more involvement.
Two of my drummer friends from high school had worked for At the time Zildjian’s yield rate was about 84%.
Zildjian right out of high school, so I asked Dick if he could help me MD: Let me ask, is the yield rate the percentage of cymbals that are
get a job at Zildjian. He made the phone call. That day I went Zildjian made that actually went out to be sold or used? Meaning that 16
and filled out an application for a factory position, I remember the out of every hundred cymbals made were rejected. That sounds like
first time I walked in the front door, I knew that this was the place a pretty good ratio.

38 Modern Drummer October 2022

PF: Yes, that’s what yield rate is. But after a few years of new PF: Yes. The first production run of a new cymbals was called “Job
certification and training, that yield rate went up into the 90+ 1.” During that run, anyone who had a part in the design of that
percent range. We smoothed the speed bumps in the production cymbal had to be available and on the floor. I had a lot of teachers
process, and the craftsmen and the guys who had been working at Zildjian. Anything that I know about cymbal sound I learned from
there for 40 or 50 years got to decide on the best approaches Leon Chiappini, Lennie DiMuzio, and Armand Zildjian.
to making cymbals. At that point I applied to become an R&D MD: Years ago I was at the Zildjian Cymbal Factory a few times,
technician, and I got the job. In 1995 my first project was the Azuka and Leon Chiappini helped me pick some cymbals, and I learned a
series with Alex Acuna. Had I known then, what I know now, I would lot about cymbals from him. He was truly amazing with me. I can’t
have approached that project completely differently. It was fun and I imagine what it was like to learn about the art of cymbal making
was an open book when it came to receiving feedback. from him.
A few years later I was invited to a meeting with the vice president PF: Leon is the best; he is THE expert when it comes to cymbal
of manufacturing and Craigie Zildjian. I really thought that I had sounds. I started working with Armand around 1997 when we
done something wrong! The VP told me that I seemed like a smart started working on the K Constantinople Orchestral project. I
kid, and that Zildjian would like me to go back to school and get a remember the meeting when he first described those cymbals. He
degree in engineering and that Zildjian would pay for it. However, wanted to make cymbals like his ancestors did, he wanted them
I really didn’t want to do it. Math is hard and not really my thing. I to sound, “like the sound of a gladiator sword hitting another
was open to going back and getting a business degree, but they gladiator’s shield.” Armand wanted those cymbals to rise from below
were insistent about the engineering part of it. I still wasn’t excited the sound of the orchestra and support it. He said that was the real
about it and shared the meeting with my dad, and my dad said to sound of K Zildjian. A Zildjian cymbals sit above the band, K’s sit
me, “They are going to give you the best Christmas present ever and below the band and support it. He wanted to create a consistent
cymbal sound with every batch, not
identical but consistent. I told him that
he would probably want to go back to
hand hammering for these new orchestral
cymbals, and he said no. Instead, he
wanted me to program the CNC computer
hammers to get him the sound that he
was after, and he told me to go figure that
out. I worked with the software developer,
the operators, and eventually figured it
out. I knew that was a means to an end,
and there was a lot of trial and error.
That is what led to the K Constantinople
Orchestral Cymbals.
Armand was great, he would never
point out the cymbals that didn’t sound
good, he would just point to the ones that
did sound good. He would look at the pile
of good ones and say, “these ones are really
good, make more like these!”
MD: That’s a great “management style,” no
negativity.
PF: There was another time that Armand
you’re saying no? Go to school and get the degree in whatever they called me up to his office to hear a cymbal. He played me a 1930s
suggest!” I went to night-school at Northeastern for seven years. Paper-Thin, He shoved it into my chest and asked me, “Can you hear
Everything that I learned at school helped me understand why and that cymbal kid? Can you HEAR how good that is?” Krupa is who
how cymbals have been made for the last 400 years, and I was able had us move away from the heavier band cymbals to the thinner
to apply everything that I learned to creating new products. instruments that could be phrased on and be used to accent the
That VP of Manufacturing helped me understand a lot. He music. He said, “You and me kid, we’re going to make cymbals like
mentored me a great deal, and he empowered everybody on my dad made for Gene Krupa.” Then I asked him how many cymbals
his team. I have to give him a lot of credit. When I would make came out sounding like this one that we were playing? He got real
prototypes of new products and projects, he would pull me aside quiet and sheepish and said “Maybe 25 out of 100. But never mind
and say, “It’s great that you can make 20 of these cymbals, but we that! We’re going to make 100 out of 100 sound this good.
need to make sure that the guys on the floor can make 20,000 of Back then they had a cutting tool that while it cut the metal, it
them when we go into production, that is what’s important.” He would also burnish and stiffen the metal. That is essential for Paper-
explained that I needed to design for manufacturability which Thin cymbals. Armand told me that they still had those tools in the
meant this: It’s great that you are an expert cymbal maker, but we factory somewhere, and that I had to find them. I called around to
need to make sure that you can set up the process so when you machine shops and talked to guys who were 70 or 80 years old to
have moved on to the next project, we don’t have to call you over see if they had ever heard of these kind of cutting tools, and no one
every five minutes to help the guys on the manufacturing floor. That had.
really stuck with me! Later, I was looking for a snare drum for the drummer’s lounge,
MD: They wanted you to be a teacher as well. and someone told me the drum I was looking for was probably in a

October 2022 Modern Drummer 39

 crawlspace above the men’s room. When I was in that crawlspace, doesn’t speak to you while you play it, you are not going to want to
in the far corner there was boxes and boxes with these old cutting play it! There is an old saying amongst cymbal makers, “I’ll show you
tools that Armand had me looking for. They had yet to be used, and what it looks like after we develop the sound.”
they had the original invoices from 1929. MD: I’m a jazz musician, I came up like many others, looking for the
MD: That sounds like Raiders of the Lost Ark type of stuff. “perfect” ride cymbal. There was a short time in my life that I was
PF: I think I might have heard the cymbal angels sing. obsessed by it. I buried cymbals, I experimented by hammering
MD: Just to be clear these cutting some cymbals, I sanded and painted
tools are the chisels that you would cymbals, then I stripped off the lacquer
hold in your hand when you are that I had applied. I searched high
lathing a cymbal, right? and low, until I found the sound that
PF: Yes, I don’t know why that are I heard in my head. I’m sure many
called chisels when they’re used to drummers are going through this
shave the metal, but yes, that’s what process right now. What can you teach
they are. We started using them on them about the different aspects of
the new cymbals. When you shaved making cymbals?
a really thin cymbal with those you PF: Material is very important
would wind up with a nice stiff piece regarding the sound that you are
of metal. That’s what Armand liked, looking for. The 80% Copper and
thin but stiff, so the cymbal will still 20% Tin Bronze that Zildjian, Sabian,
project. If you make a thin cymbal and the Turkish brands use is really
that is really floppy, you won’t hear fantastic because it can be morphed
it. Those are the type of things that I into a bright sound or a dark sound.
learned and had the opportunity to It can also make a Special EFX sound,
take part in. it’s beautiful metal to work with. But
As time went on, I became the everybody has to do their job the right
R&D manager, and the R&D Quality way. The guys in the foundry have to
Manager, my last position with mix the metal the right way.
Zildjian was the Director of R&D or the I worked on the new Avedis cymbals,
Director of Innovation. The title didn’t and I wanted them to sound like they
matter to me, I was a cymbal maker! were already 70 years old. I wanted
In that job I got to work with Tony them to age as quickly as possible. The
Williams, Elvin Jones, Peter Erskine, metallurgists examined cymbals that
Steve Smith, Adam Nussbaum, Steve were of various ages and vintages.
Gadd, Louie Bellson, you name it. I got They examined the crystal structure
to develop sounds with my heroes and said whatever you are creating
and true legends. I got to see what in that melt room is not typical 80-20
they were looking for and began to bronze. Something is happening,
understand how to develop those things are changing, but we can’t
sounds. Then I put those sounds into tell you how to speed it up. These
production so other people could get were same guys that investigate
them.. plane crashes and stuff like that, but they couldn’t tell me what
MD: What did you learn from those drummers? was happening to the metal as cymbals got older. Eventually we
PF: Drummers want cymbals with a lot of clarity to them. They developed a process in the factory that would make a cymbal sound
don’t want too much wash, and they don’t want a muddy sounding older right out of the gate. I won’t share the details on that process.
cymbal. Many great jazz drummers consider every cymbal to be Of course you have a thickness of the metal that is rolled, rides are
a ride and every cymbal to be a crash. Every drummer wants their thicker and crashes are thinner. Then you have a cup shape. The cup
cymbal to be “the unicorn.” We used to joke that if we could just (or bell) determines the pitch and the volume of the cymbal. If you
design one perfect cymbal and sell it for 40 million dollars, we want a loud cymbal, you install a bigger bell that has some weight
wouldn’t have to make any more cymbals. behind it, that will help a cymbal project. If you want a cymbal that
Everything depended on the drummer. Some drummers wanted speaks faster and shorter, you install a smaller bell and make it
a cymbal that was clean and pretty sounding, some drummers thinner. Of course the hammering makes a difference. Hammering
wanted a cymbal that had a lot of stick but had a good deal of compresses the metal and makes the metal stronger. That changes
growl to it. At the time, Orchestral players were morphing back to the sound. You can create a cymbal with the 80-20 bronze that
the older style K Constantinople sound. That was the pre-K Istanbul has no hammering that will sound pretty good, but there will be
sound. The orchestral guys wanted that growl too, that’s where the limitations. That’s what the Zilco line of cymbals were. They were
idea of cluster hammering came from. A lot of people don’t realize pressed into shape and lathed without any hammering.
that a lot of the design work that goes into Orchestral cymbals, MD: Is that also what the Zildjian Earth Ride was too?
works its way into drum set cymbals and even entry-level cymbals. PF: Yes the Earth Ride was like that too. An Earth Ride is simply an
You learned a lot working on the really high end pristine and un-hammered and un-lathed rock ride. This was a sound that Billy
prestigious instruments. We were developing sounds. A drummer Cobham requested from Armand. Lots of stick and not spread or
is not going to buy a cymbal just because it looks good. If it looks wash.
good but sounds like crap, no one is going to buy it. If a cymbal When you hammer a cymbal there are only two different ways to

40 Modern Drummer October 2022

hammer. Rows or asymmetrical or random hammering (whatever open up more. A cymbal will change on its own without your help.
you want to call it.) When hammering lines up nice and evenly, the Playing a cymbal does help, making it vibrate. The old story about
vibrations will travel more evenly because there are less “speed Elvin Jones playing long mallet rolls on new cymbals to open them
bumps” for the vibrations to encounter. up does actually work. I recommend that to drummers all of the
Then there is the shape or profile of the cymbal. A lower shape (or time. There is a myth that “they” used to make cymbals better back
curvature) will provide a lower fundamental pitch. A higher shape or in the day. That is not necessarily true. The claim that “such and such”
bow of the cymbal will provide a brighter sound. is making cymbals the old way isn’t true either. No one is making
Lathing removes the outer crust of tin oxide. An A Custom is cymbals the old way. You can’t not use the knowledge that you have
polished to create some extra bite to the weight range. In regards to accumulated throughout the years, no matter what business or art
weight, a thin crash is a thin crash. There is a weight range to a thin you are in.
crash. The sound of a cymbal is not only dependent on its weight, MD: Throughout those years I’m sure there is a lot of “happy
but on the hammering, and the specific curvature or bow. That’s accidents” in your field.
what will determine a K or an A sound. PF: There have been many times in my career when an artist would
The point is, there are a lot of factors that go into the sound of send back a bunch of prototypes and say that they just weren’t
a cymbal, and they are ALL very important. People get blinded by working for him. I would get a little disappointed that they didn’t
weight, some drummers get obsessed by hammering. I’ll tell you like all the cymbals made for them and just lean them against the
this, if you aren’t a good lathe operator you are going to ruin a lot of wall in the drummer’s lounge. The next day another drummer would
high-quality craftsmanship that took weeks to do prior to lathing. come in and be looking for a specific sound. He would pick up one
Lathing might look easy and simplistic, but it’s not. It requires a lot of of those same cymbals that had just been returned, and he would
skill and touch. You have to feel the piece of metal you are lathing/ LOVE it. He would say that was the sound that he had been looking
shaving. for his whole life.
But to answer your question, there isn’t any one step that is more When I was working on the Left Side Ride with Peter Erskine, I
important than another. The Zildjian way works, the Paiste way was using some hammering techniques to get the cymbal to play a
works, the Turkish way works. Everything is a means to an end to get little looser. While I was working on that I was also working on the
to a sound. Throughout my career I have learned all of the different K Constantinople rides and I stumbled upon “something.” Artists
approaches, I am and will always be a perpetual student of cymbal were complaining that the K Constantinople’s were a little stiff, so I
making. applied what I had discovered on the
MD: I always heard that the bridge of Left Side Ride to the K Constantinople’s.
a cymbals was an important aspect of I brought a bunch of those into Leon,
the cymbal. That is the place where the and he started playing them. He put the
bow hits the bell (what I have been told.) stick down and said, You don’t know
I am also a big fan of the Paiste Sound what you just brought in to me!” I told
Creation Dark Ride, which originally had him that I did. He disagreed, saying,
a lot of hammering around the bridge. “If you knew what you had here, you
PF: There is a lot of terminology out would be jumping up and down!” It
there that cymbal companies don’t wasn’t that it was an easy fix… I had
use. But yes, that is a critical part of the just combined a couple of different
cymbal. I believe Paiste was going after a processes, and the end result achieved
sound, and every time they applied that a more buttery feel that drummers
hammering it got them there, so they wanted. That was a happy accident. And
continued doing it. I think the Sound as with many things, had I known then
Creations were going after the K sound, what I know now, I would have gone a
and I personally think they got much little further with it.
closer with the Traditionals. MD: What do you hear when you hear
One thing that you need to watch out a cymbal?
for, especially in the lathing process, is a PF: I hear the pitch, and part of hearing
“sunken cup.” That is where there is a dip (for me) is feeling the piece of metal,
in this “bridge” of the cymbal. But there because (for me) those go hand in hand.
are exceptions to that “rule” too. There When I pick up a cymbal and look at it,
is a cymbal company that intentionally I can tell you what it’s going to sound
designed a ride with sunken cup for an like without even playing it. I hear the
artist because that’s the sound that he stick attack, overtones, undertones, I
wanted, and the artist was happy with hear the shape of the bell. People who
the sound of the ride. So again, means to play and make cymbals hear things that
an end. no one else hears. A lot of people also
MD: You just said that in the world of don’t know that a brand-new cymbal
“cymbalholics” (drummers who are obsessed with cymbals who sounds very dull, you would never play a brand new cymbal right
actually had a blog that existed for many years) there are a great off of the lathe on a gig. It takes about 48 hours for all the different
deal of cymbal terms and cymbal myths, that cymbal makers don’t aspects of sound in a cymbal to mesh together. At first all of the
use of subscribe to. I would like you to dispel some of them. different characteristics and sounds within the cymbal all sound
PF: A big myth is that if you bury a cymbal it is going to darken the very separate. Whenever we were working on prototypes we would
sound. If you simply lean it up against the wall for a year it’s going to have to let cymbals sit for a few days before we could hear the final

October 2022 Modern Drummer 41

 results of what we did. or curvature. Then you want to replicate the weight of the cymbal
MD: And just to be clear for the readers, when you refer to a “brand through lathing and determine the hammering pattern. All of that
new cymbal” you are referring to one that is still being worked on in gets you into the ballpark.
the factory, not a new cymbal sitting in a store, right? MD: There are measurables, but then comes an immeasurable, YOUR
PF: Yes, that’s an important clarification, thanks. What happens with EARS!
cymbal metal, especially 80-20 bronze, is it has to be softened, after PF: You let the cymbal sit for a few days and compare it to the
it’s rolled it’s very brittle. If you drop it on the floor it will break like original. Then you ask yourself what is missing from the new cymbal
glass. You heat it up to stamp in a cup, then you heat it again and that the old cymbal has. It’s sometimes hard to reverse engineer
it is quenched (cooled) in a tank of cold water. At that point the things. Maybe the guy who originally made the older cymbal was
metal is very soft so it can be worked. Interestingly, this is actually having a bad day.
the opposite process of knife making. After 48 hours or so, a cymbal MD: Maybe he was swinging the hammer a little harder?
starts to “age harden.” That is when the molecules of metal are PF: Exactly. A lot of the old K’s are far from “perfect.” There are high
getting harder. A lot of people think that older cymbals are softer, and low spots, weird bumps in the metal, whatever.
they are actually harder. Older cymbals are easier to play because MD: That’s what I meant about a cymbal sounding too perfect and
you don’t have to put as much inconsistencies.
energy into playing the cymbal PF: I understand, but I’ll still say
because it’s harder. Metal is that nothing can be “too perfect.”
more resonant when it’s harder. When Rodney Green convinced
It’s really hard to copy an old Kenny Washington to bring
cymbal because of this natural in the old ride that Mel Lewis
process and the fact that you gave him and Kenny had played
really don’t know how they forever; Kenny had already sent
made a particular cymbal on it to Bosphorus to be copied,
any given day back then. and he had sent it to another
MD: But you have spent a lot cymbal company, and they tried
of time copying old cymbals. too. Kenny told me about those
Are the inconsistencies in the failed attempts, and asked me
making of a cymbal what make what made me think that I could
it sound good or great? Can a replicate his ride? He agreed to
cymbal sound “too good?” let me try to replicate his cymbal.
PF: No a cymbal can’t sound When he came up to the factory,
too good. And yes, the I had a bunch of early prototypes
inconsistencies can make on stands for him to try. When
something sound good, but he played them, he became
you can’t necessarily make convinced that he was in the right
those inconsistencies a place. He asked me what I did,
goal. There is always built-in and I explained to him what I just
inconsistencies, but you want Wallace Roney, Paul Francis and Vince Wilburn explained to you. He took a step
those inconsistencies to be holding the Nefertiti ride cymbal back and said, “You’re crazy, who
as consistent as possible. The thinks of cymbals like that?”
biggest variables happen Kenny took some
at rolling. If you want funkier sounds, you create processes and prototypes and played them for a year. I didn’t hear from him. That
techniques to create that funkiness. That’s where cluster hammering was great because when someone doesn’t like something you
came in, or drilling holes to remove mass from the cymbal. Those hear from them right away. He finally called me back and told me
techniques afford you “repeatability.” You don’t want to rely on those that he wanted to tweak them a little more because they didn’t
inconsistencies for design. You want to tame them and keep them in have enough low end. I told him that I could fix that by making his
a corner. You don’t want inconsistencies showing up in a big batch cymbal a little flatter or a little thinner. He came up to the factory
of Medium Rides. A batch of cymbals can cost $8,000 in material again and I made another batch that had a lower curvature and
and labor to make, sure you can regain the materials by reusing the the same weight, and some that had the same curvature and were
metal, but you can’t regain the labor, that can’t get recouped. the same shape but lighter. I also had a few leftovers that I had
MD: Your “legend” really began to grow when you began replicating experimented with some little spots of cluster hammering. When
cymbals, so many of those turned into production models like the Kenny came back to the factory, I put up the cymbals without the
Bounce and Renaissance Rides. What goes into replicating an old cluster hammering because they were our main focus and I laid the
cymbal? cluster hammered ones to the side and told him not to worry about
PF: If you get the overall shape, and weight, you are nearly there. those. I left the room for two minutes. When I came back in, what
It’s actually very easy to get close, but you would expect me to say cymbals do you think he had up on the stands?
that, because this is what I do. Leon and I worked on these projects MD: The cluster hammered ones.
together for months sometimes years. That is fun. When you get an PF: Exactly, I wasn’t even going to show him those. But he pointed
old cymbal to replicate, an old K for example; It’s nearly impossible to one of those and said that’s it, that’s THE sound! I told him he had
to determine how that (or any) cymbal was made 100 years ago only played them for a few minutes, how could he be so sure? I took
in Turkey. However, to get into the ballpark you must determine my original designs and did some cluster hammering on those as
and replicate the cup shape and determine and replicate the bow well to see if that was actually the trick or just a coincidence. He took

42 Modern Drummer October 2022

them all and started to play them. He loves them. That’s where the medium thin to medium weight top over a medium heavy to heavy
Bounce ride came from. It came from a cymbal that I wasn’t even bottom in order to get a solid chick sound and great funky stick
going to show him. There are many forces at work that help you patterns.
along the way. MD: People might assume that you have a house filled with old
MD: The cymbal Gods are alive and well. special and cool cymbals.
PF: I always tell people that a lot of doors were opened for me, I was PF: I have some cymbals from special projects that I have worked
just smart enough to walk through them. on, I like to pull those out every once-in-a-while and reminisce. I do
MD: I don’t even know if all of those endorsers know how lucky have a really special Bill Stewart ride that I framed because it was
they are to be able to sit with you and design their cymbals. I know such a special project for me.
several drummers who only dream about those opportunities. MD: What are some of the projects that you learned the most from,
PF: It’s was an honor for me and a lot of fun. One thing that I learned and stick out in your head?
from Armand, Lennie, and Leon is that no matter what drummer PF: I learn something from everything I do. I really enjoyed and
walked in the factory, that drummer was the most important learned a lot from working on beginner cymbals. That’s where
person on the planet on that day. That drummer got our undivided drummers start, and if young drummers don’t enjoy their first
attention when he was there. instrument, they aren’t going to progress to the next level. I wanted
MD: I know, it happened with me. our beginner cymbals to have a sound and a feel that represented
PF: And if that drummer didn’t find the sound that he was looking the brand well. Those beginner cymbals would require just as much
for, I would take some notes and send him something. We were just work as a cymbal that was expensive and prestigious.
as excited to discover a great sound for someone as they were. And The K Constantinople’s were very close to my heart, as were the
who knows what those discoveries would lead to? If you liked it, “new” A Zildjian’s and the CIE Zildjian’s that I worked on with
maybe someone else would too. Armand. That was a really fantastic project to be a part of.
MD: So let’s fast forward to today? What are you doing with your Getting to work with Bill Stewart was a real lesson in cymbals
own company Cymbal Craftsman, what kind of cymbals are you sound for me. To hear what he liked in a cymbal was really
making? educational, and that sound wasn’t in the catalog at the time. So to
PF: I am not making old K’s, NOBODY is making old K’s! That’s a create that sound with him was exciting. I remember learning that
ghost that I’m no longer chasing. I am making good sounding the knock that he got from a ride was from his grip instead of the
cymbals for drummers who are looking for a specific sound tailored cymbal, that was a big relief to me. I also learned a lot from Kenny
to them. If you want something like what Bill Stewart plays, I know Washington and Peter Erskine.
that sound. If you want a cymbal like Steve Smith’s old K with the Some of the artists that are very specific in their sound needs are
big chunk taken out of it, I know that sound. I have spent 32 years orchestral cymbal artists. They need a specific sound color. I had
as an artist designing cymbals. Any artist will tell you, you never get the pleasure to have worked with Joe Pereria from the NY Phil and
“there.” And if you think that you have arrived “there” (wherever that joined the LA Symphony as the principal timpanist. Working with
may be,) you might as well give Joe morphed into working
it up. Paul Francis, Leon Chiappini, and Adam Nussbaum with Mark Demoulakis who
For example, now drummers was in the NY Phil and then
contact me when they have a became principal percussionist
Bill Stewart sounding main ride with the Cleveland Orchestra.
cymbal and they want me to That’s where K Symphonic’s
design hi hats and a left side came from. We worked on that
cymbal that I think might pair old nasty true old K sound.
well with it. But that’s impossible. That’s when we were able
Everybody hears cymbals to get that gladiator sword
differently; I start to agonize against the shield sound.
over requests like that. A set of I am really proud of my
cymbals has to have colors. For involvement in the ZXT line.
the drummer who asked me to I learned a lot about the B8
design the left side and the hats alloy from a mentor of mine
for his Bill Stewart style ride; I at Zildjian who passed away
made him a nice 20” that was unexpectedly in December
brighter, 20’s are always going to be brighter anyway. The 20 was a 2001 in the middle of the project. I learned a lot about B8 alloy
little bit prettier, a little cleaner, and with a little bit of less dominant from him because it behaves and reacts totally differently from
dirt. The hats are just pretty, thin top, good bottom with some meat, 80-20 bronze. There is exponential jump in lows that you get from
and a great chick sound. There are a lot of colors in the hats. a cymbal as you add small amounts of tin. B8 is really high end
MD: What are some of your own favorite cymbal sounds, what and cutting, and as you add more tin you get more lows until you
cymbals do you play? get to 20% tin. Above 20% tin, you don’t get much return on your
PF: I’m in three bands, two cover bands and a rockabilly band. My investment, and any additional tin isn’t warranted in my professional
cymbals have to be all-encompassing. My cymbal set-up consists opinion with regard to an improved sound.
of prototypes that I’ve made over the years. I will be playing a set I loved learning every different way that you could make cymbals,
of Cymbal Craftsman cymbals very soon once I finish all the all the because you never knew what it was going to lead to. There are
orders I’ve received. The cymbals I like to play consist of a solid 20” no limitations to cymbal making, that’s what is great about it. A
ride with a nice clear bell and solid stick sound, crashes are medium colleague asked me once after finishing a lengthly cymbal project
thin in weight and have a cutting sound and the hi hats will be a what I was going to come up with next? I told him (seriously) that I

October 2022 Modern Drummer 43

 don’t have to come up with any of the ideas, I am the conduit that instruments?
ideas travel through. The music and the musicians come up with PF: Sure, because for not a lot of money, it creates and crafts an
a sound. We discuss it as a team and then we see if we can create instrument that someone wants to play, as opposed to it just sitting
that sound. What I’m proudest of is that some of my favorite cymbal in a case. I’m going to keep creating cymbals as long as people care
projects have developed into wonderful friendships. that I’m doing it when people stop caring, I’ll go and do something
Another project that I’m really proud of is the Sweet Ride. One else. (Laughs!)
morning Armand called from Arizona at 7am EST, so that was 4am MD: You mentioned not knowing when to stop. I always ask
Arizona time. He tells me that a guy at a drum shop in Nevada has a musicians when they know a song or a record is done, that’s really
21” cymbal that he had given him 30 years ago and it sounded great! difficult sometimes. But a cymbal smith, like a sculptor, can’t add
Armand wanted me to contact the guy and convince him to send it anything back after he has taken it away, so it must be even a
to the factory so I could copy it. This guy had no idea who I was, and tougher decision for you. Therefore, how do you know when a
I had to convince him that I would actually return the cymbal to him. cymbal is “done?”
I finally got the cymbal, took PF: A lot of experience helps.
the measurements, and made When I turned 50, I went to
the prototype copies. Armand Italy, and I saw Michaelangelo’s
played them, and a few days “David.” When I saw that for the
later we had a meeting. I put all first time, my breath was taken
of the cymbals up for people away. I walked around it in awe
from the various departments and said two things to my wife.
to play. We were having a hard When I look at this, I realize that
time deciding on a name for I have no business calling myself
this cymbal, because creating an artist. And I am convinced
cymbal model names is really that Michaelangelo said to
hard. To me, if a cymbal is really himself, “I’m not done yet.” No
good it doesn’t matter what you artist is truly satisfied, artists
call it, but the marketing team always think they can make
liked names. I was playing it and something a little better. The
talking to myself and I mumbled interesting thing about the David
that the cymbal sounded sculpture is that was a rejected
sweet. Colin Schofield heard me piece of marble from a church
mumble that, and said that’s courtyard that they weren’t
what we’ll call it, the SWEET going to use to build the church.
Ride! He took it because they had
MD: Again, fast forward to rejected it. When I see things like
today. What types of sounds are people asking you to create today? that, I start to investigate it, because I always want to know more.
PF: People are asking for good sounding cymbals that can be But to answer your question. I used to rely on Leon or Armand to
used in a variety of situations, whereas years ago drummers would say, “YES, that’s it!” That’s what I knew I was “done.” But I think I am
have a jazz set and a pop set and a rock set of cymbals. People are at a point in my cymbal making journey that I know when I have
asking about good medium weight cymbals that are versatile. A gotten to where a sound is matching what was described to me.
lot of people want the sounds that are no longer made. Like the But as you said, sometimes there is a point where I do have to tell
Bill Stewart Ride sound. Someone just asked me for an 18” main people, “Look if I take some more weight off, I can’t put it back on. So
crash that had a good bell that they could play latin bell patterns let’s make sure before we do another round of lathing.” Sometimes
on. A drummer just commissioned me to people will think they want something at a
make a very low pitched 22” flat ride. That is an certain weight. I’ll get it close to that weight
interesting cymbal because I didn’t know when and achieve the sound that they described, so
to stop as I didn’t really know how low of a I’ll tell them to try it. If they want the cymbal
sound he wanted as we use words to describe to be lighter, they can send it back and I’ll take
sound and we all have our own individual way a few more grams off. But most of the time a
to describe things we hear. I could have kept few grams isn’t going to make a difference, it’s
making the pitch lower and lower, but I got it all about the sound achieved through all of a
to a point where it was low but really pretty, cymbal’s parameters.
so I sent it to him and said if he wanted it any MD: I’ll bet most those cymbals never come
lower in pitch that he could send it back to me back. Because you are you, and your ears don’t
and I would take some more weight off of it. lie. The biggest compliment that we can give
He got it two weeks ago and he loves it and a musician is he’s got big ears. And you have
is already getting compliments from other BIG ears.
musicians about it. I am also modifying older PF: Thank you very much for the compliment.
cymbals that people don’t like anymore to Our mutual friend Adam Nussbaum is another
make them more usable to their owners. That great mentor of mine, I have learned a lot
is a process that only endorsers were afforded, from him, and as he says, “God gave us two
but now anyone can get that service from me. ears and one mouth for a reason.” Even at 54 years of age, I still lean
MD: Is doing cymbal modifications as gratifying as creating new on a lot of people for their expertise, and I have had a lot of mentors

44 Modern Drummer October 2022

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 throughout the years. Great old K’s. I asked if I could pull the
mentors allow you to learn. cymbals out of the bag, and I
MD: That’s what makes “us” slowly started to play each one.
artists different, and what I got to the Nefertiti ride, and I
brings up that difficult question asked Vince if he was testing me?
about when something is (Laughs.) He said that he just
“done?” Let me switch subjects. wanted to be sure that I really
I have an amazing 19” Paiste knew that sound. I picked out the
602 that is like the Paiste cymbal immediately.
version of the Zildjian “Beautiful MD: I’m not surprised.
Baby.” Why have 19” cymbals PF: In 2019 before Wallace passed
never taken off? away, I made a bunch of copies of
PF: Armand Zildjian used to ask that cymbal for him in different
the same thing. I think it has sizes. The Nefertiti cymbal is
to do with the odd numbers, actually a 21 5/8” cymbal. I made
in the western hemisphere Wallace a 20, a 21, a 22, a 23 (by
even numbers resonate with us accident,) and a 24. That was
more. That’s one of the eternal right before Covid hit, and soon
cymbal mystery’s that I can’t thereafter Wallace died from
solve. If you get the right 19” complications due to Covid. I can’t
cymbal (like you said) where really even bring myself to talk
the bell is big enough, it is the about that because Wallace was
perfect one cymbal gig cymbal. such a beautiful human being. The
That Beautiful Baby was an exact fact that Wallace and Vince treated
copy of a ride that was on Armand’s set, and he loved that cymbal. me with such respect and trusted me means the world to me.
The story behind that cymbal was that Leon was in the Quincy MD: What are some of your favorite recorded cymbal sounds?
factory pulling an order way back. Armand walked by as Leon was PF: Tony’s Nefertiti ride, Jimmy Cobb’s Kind of Blue Ride, Neil Peart’s
tapping a 19” cymbal. Armand heard that cymbal and said, “Put Ride, which was actually an A that was made in the Canadian factory
three nails in that one and put it in my office,” he kept it for the rest and wasn’t as heavy as one might think. The bell is smaller than you
of his life and that is what we copied for the Beautiful Baby 19” ride. might think too. Steve Smith’s 24” Ping ride on “Don’t Stop Believin”
19” and 21” rides really resonated with Armand, and when a cymbal was in my possession for a while, that’s a fantastic cymbal. I have
resonates with you and excites you, that joy then comes through the Adam Nussbaum’s 22” Pre-Aged Dry Light ride that was made before
music. It might sound corny but it’s true. it was even called that. The list goes on and on. There are so many
MD: The sound of our instruments inspires us, and when we are great cymbal sounds that it is hard to limit myself to just a few.
inspired, we play better. Are you driven crazy by recordings of MD: All of this brings us to your new cymbal company Cymbal
cymbals, I know you must have been driven Craftsman. What can you tell me about this
nuts by people wanting the Tony Williams ride exciting new endeavor?
cymbal sound on Nefertiti. However, there PF: What it comes down to is that I HAVE to
are mics, room sounds, a players touch, and make cymbals, I HAVE to scratch this itch. I
production that come between that cymbal HAVE to help people find their sound and help
and the listener. How do you deal with that? them find the sounds that they are looking for.
PF: It’s no problem, from hearing a good I want to be that vehicle to create the sound
recording I have a pretty good understanding they’re hearing in their heads for them. I want
of what that particular piece of metal is doing. to take all of what I have learned up until this
I was talking to Vince Wilburn about Jimmy point, and everything that I have learned from
Cobb’s ride cymbal on Kind of Blue. There is the different drummers that I have worked
some discrepancy of whether that was a 19” for and with, and I want to apply that to the
or a 20”. But one thing is for sure, it’s an A cymbal sound that YOU are looking for. That’s
from back in the day, I’m 100% sure of that. it. I just want to make great sounding cymbals
If the cymbal is high enough in the mix of a for drummers, I’m not here to change the
recording, a cymbal maker can hear enough world, I just want to make great sounding
information to get into the ballpark. cymbals that people want to play and through which people
When we were developing the K Constantinople I would come can express themselves. Music is a wonderful non-verbal form of
home at night and listen to Miles Davis Nefertiti and Tony’s ride expression, and I like being a part of that.
cymbal for hours. I was just really trying to understand what that MD: Any final advice for all of the cymbal obsessed drummers out
sound is. there?
MD: So when you hear that magical cymbal, what do you hear? PF: Find cymbals that sound good to you. Don’t get bogged
PF: I hear some stick definition, I hear a lot of dark dirty undertones, down with a cymbal that doesn’t speak to you. Don’t try to make
especially when he crashes it. I actually had that cymbal in my office something that doesn’t sound good to you, be something that it
for seven years. It belonged to Wallace Roney, and he brought it up can’t be for you. Go and find cymbals that you love and share them
to the factory with Miles’ nephew, drummer Vince Wilburn. When with the drumming community and then make fantastic music with
they brought that cymbal to me, they arrived with a whole bag of those cymbals because that’s what the world needs!
Check out Paul’s drummer profile page, at modern drummer.com
46 Modern Drummer October 2022
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2022 Modern Drummer 47
 The Daru Sessions
Mark Allee

48 Modern Drummer October 2022

Vol.3 The new PDP
Daru Jones
Nashville
Blue New
Yorker kit
By Mark Griffith

In November Drum Workshop and PDP are

introducing a new Daru Jones signature drumset.
A lot of thought went into the Daru Jones Nashville
Blue New Yorker kit. It’s not “just” a compact kit.
It’s a very versatile instrument that offers any
working or beginner drummer several options.
For those paying attention to the world of compact
kits being released today, you already know that
PDP released the DJNY kit in 2017. That original PDP
DJNY kit is one of the best compact kits around, and
Daru is really proud of that kit. So why have a new
signature compact kit? We answer that question
in this third part of The Daru Sessions while Daru
and I talk about the development of some of his
signature gear and his exciting new kit.

October 2022 Modern Drummer 49

 MD: Before we talk about the new kit, how did the original signature for gigs. The quality is that good. I know that drummer Eric Moore is
kit come about? using these drums on gigs, and there are others as well.
DJ: The original DJNY came out in 2017. PDP already had the New It’s nice to have these drums as an option if I don’t want to take
Yorker series of drums, and there were a lot of the mini kits coming out a bigger kit. I am doing a lot of DJ and Drum gigs, and I bring
out from just about every drum company around. I like the idea these drums. I used these drums for the entire Daru Play the Breaks
of the mini kits, but I wanted to make mine different and better. I project and record. In the booklet for the CD, I am talking about
wanted an identifiable and stylish color for my signature kit, and the playing these beats with various artists, but I was still able to get
gold sparkle fade fit the bill. It looks great on stage and under the those big drum sounds on the Play the Breaks record with these
lights. The compact vibe is great for local gigs. I use them a lot. You smaller drums.
can actually see and hear me playing those drums on a video of Jack When I played those grooves on the original records with the
White demoing his new effects pedals with me playing drums. original artists, I used the drums that were accessible in the studio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCM__zcakWk at that time. But when I was reliving those beats for the breakbeats
and here record, it was amazing. I was able to tune these drums to get them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3i89q27nGc to sound like the original kits on those records. I didn’t have to
MD: What are the sizes of the new kit? compromise the sound to get the vibe for the record. You can tune
Nick L. Photo

DJ: It’s a 10x18” bass drum, 5x10” tom, 7x14” floor tom, and a 6x13” these drum high or low and it’s just a good sounding solid kit.
metal snare. The shells are all maple unlike other compact kits. The When I was young, I was a fan of Yamaha drums because of Steve
thing that I have always admired about PDP is although they are Gadd, Weckl, and Vinnie. I remember when they came out with their
the budget line of Drum Workshop, they don’t compromise on the Hip Gig kits. I never got a chance to own one, but I thought they
quality for any of their drums. These are NOT beginner’s drums that were the coolest things ever! I know companies are competitive, and
you are going to play for a year, and they are going to fall apart. DW I know a lot of companies have been jumping on the bandwagon
never compromises the quality of anything. My signature kit might with their own versions of these compact kits, but I didn’t want my
be a little more expensive than the other mini kits, but you get what signature drums to be a cheap kit. I wanted my signature kit to be a
you pay for. professional level kit, and it is! Having the smaller drums is cool, but
I also ues the DW lightweight flat based stands which I love. All you want to make drums that are going to last and sound good too.
the weight for a drum set is in the hardware, so that’s an important MD: It was also really smart that you and PDP didn’t include a cheap
aspect of this kit. These drums are built for the streets. They are little mini-snare that doesn’t even sound like a good snare, which is
light and small, but they are a durable quality instrument that can what some companies did.
be used for busking or playing in the subway. I actually use them DJ: Exactly. What use is it to have a kit that has a lot of body, and a

50 Modern Drummer October 2022

snare that sounds like a toy. We also used a different
MD: What was the need for a new color on this kit. Since I am in
signature kit, and what is the Nashville now, and we are doing
difference between your original the extended Jack White tour that
signature kit and the new one? is all based around the color blue,
DJ: When I heard that DW was I also wanted this signature kit to
making these new Snoms (toms be blue. We did a blue fade that
with snare drum strainers attached) looks dope! It’s also pretty cool for
I started thinking. Most drummers me that PDP has put my logo on
today are playing with more than the bass drum head, and the DJNY
one snare sound, so I wanted to 2 logo is on each of the badges.
make my new signature kit where Another cool feature is that you
all of the drums are snares. Every also have the option to put a plate
drum on this kit has a real strainer over the tom mount on the bass
and real snare wires across the drum if you aren’t using it, that
bottom. At first it was mentioned makes the set look really clean. I’m
that it would be easier to put snare really honored that more of my
wires on the inside of the drum aesthetic as a fashionable dude is
that pressed against the inside of being used on these the drums.
the top head, but that’s jive. I really I really had a lot of creative input
wanted to use real snare wires with on this set, and PDP allowed me to
real strainers and levers. include my vibe on these kits.
If I am playing a tune, and I need We call this kit the Daru Jones
Mark Allee

a different sound for the chorus, I Nashville Blue New Yorker kit. I
can just flick the strainer and turn wanted this kit to pay tribute to all
the snares on, and boom there of the local guys who are playing in
is my alternate snare sound for the clubs around Nashville, and to
the chorus. When I go back to the hopefully provide them with a cool
verse, I can turn the snares off and go on like normal. When I work new portable and compact kit that they can use, and that sounds
with Pete Rock, he wants you to have a few snares. I also bring the great! Here is the unboxing of the new set.
big fat snare drum accessory to give me even more alternate snare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG6777jPYKc
sounds. Now I can just bring this kit. MD: The 10x18” bass drum is a really cool size. I think that
Here’s a clip of me playing with the two-snare vibe. https://www. Slingerland made a 10x20 bass drum way back in the 50s or 60s. I
youtube.com/watch?v=4rbiZpCsuMg played one on a gig and it was fantastic.
MD: I saw Jim Keltner (another DW endorser) playing with Bill Frisell DJ: The kit on my Jack White kit is an 8x26, and I never miss the
at The Bottom Line in 1998, and he had an entire five piece set of depth on that drum, and it sounds huge.
snare drums for a set. If I remember MD: How does the new kit pack up?
correctly, I think he used mounted DJ: The kit can be ordered with
10” and 12” snares for small toms lightweight bags for each drum, and a
and a big deep parade drum tuned lightweight hardware bag that is light
low for as a floor tom. All of them enough to strap on your shoulder.
had strainers and wires, and Jim MD: What cymbals are you using with
would flip them off and on a few this kit?
times during each song. It was one DJ: The Paiste DJ 45s. Those are my
of the coolest things that I have artist inspired cymbals where each
ever seen! I think he used that setup cymbal is 12”. The crash, the hats, and
on the Bill Frisell record Gone, Just the ride are all 12”, and the ride is black
Like a Train too. I know that Jim also and looks like a vinyl record. I still have
has a lime green DW set that has an 18” for a crash-ride. The DJ 45s are
snares mounted on regular toms cool to just throw in a bag for a jam
too, he’s such a creative cat. session or something, but I use the
DJ: I’m really excited about that Swiss Cheese low fi hi hats on gigs as
aspect of this kit. I saw Chris Dave doing the multi-snares thing and an alternate hi hat sound too. There is a great clip on Youtube of me
it was so cool, it really got me thinking. playing my DJ 45’s at Sun Studios with Mono Neon.
MD: The snare drum Snom idea for this kit is a great idea, it makes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Vw7UPMNPs
this kit a versatile instrument for any drummer. MD: It’s cool that all of the cymbals are the same size because you
DJ: This kit is several things at once. It can be used as a professional can mix and match them, or use them as alternate sounds with your
kit where all of the drums are snares like lots of drummers are doing other cymbals, just like your new kit. I’m seeing a very smart pattern
today. Or you can use any of the Snoms from my kit with another of versatile instruments here.
kit as alternate snare sounds. Or you can use this kit as a “normal” DJ: Absolutely. Options. Versatile instruments. That’s where it’s at!
professional compact kit that will fit into the trunk of a car for local
gigs. Or you can use this kit as a high-quality beginner kit. Check out Daru’s drummer profile page,
at modern drummer.com
October 2022 Modern Drummer 51
 BASICS

Practice Outside of the Box

By Billy Ashbaugh

F or this month’s article, I’d like to discuss the concept of practicing

creatively or “outside of the box”. I’ll agree there’s certainly
nothing wrong with playing through a drum method book as
on. I would explain to them that playing the exercise one time
correctly was actually just the first step. I remind them that a typical
song is three to four minutes long. So obviously, the first thing every
written. However, I’ve discovered that there are many benefits to student must get comfortable with is repeating or looping a beat
thinking beyond what’s notated on the page. When I first started over and over until it’s flawless. Once this notion is embraced by the
taking lessons, I was fortunate enough to have a teacher that would student, the creativity and the journey begins.
instill this philosophy in my daily practice routine. I’m very grateful The first thing I do is have the student play a beat for four
for this and continue to carry this knowledge with me to this day. measures (over and over) and practice crashing at the beginning of
I can remember starting off a lesson by reading a march exercise each four-bar phrase. This way, they’re beginning to think in blocks
from a book. But instead of using a metronome, we played along of four. Most of the music that we will play along to in the beginning
to a song by the group Yes. This is structured in sections of 4, 8,
was a real eye opener for how 12, or 16. This exercise will help
those subdivisions fit inside of the tremendously when we venture
music. It was also a challenge to into the world of playing music.
not get distracted by the music Once comfortable, we’ll work our
while playing the march. I’ll never way down the page and cover
forget the day I showed up for this exercise with all of the beats
my lesson and the drum set was on that page. Then we’ll go back
switched around and set up for to the top of the page and do the
a left-handed drummer. At first, same exercise, but this time we’ll
I thought it was a mistake and move over to the ride. The idea is to
he would switch the kit around get the student comfortable with
before my lesson, but I was wrong. any beat whether it’s on the hi-hat
We ended up doing the entire or ride. The next stage would be
lesson left-handed. As much of a to practice going back and forth
struggle as it was, it really exposed between hi-hat and ride. I have
the weakness of my left side. He them play four bars of each and
had me play a swing beat from play a crash at the beginning of
a book as a four-bar pattern. each four-bar phrase. The last stage
Then he had me add an accent would be to add a fill on bar four.
(whether it was written or not) Often, it can be a challenge for
on the last triplet of beat 4 of the the student to think of a fill. When
4th measure. He had me phrase this happens, I’ll pull up a page
this accent two different ways. with fills that we’ve been working
Naijah Ashbaugh

First with the kick and crash, then on for them to choose from. Over
with the snare and crash. Exercises time, the idea is to be able to create
like this really opened my mind your own fill as you play through
up to thinking creatively and this exercise. I know this can seem
musically. These lessons had a intimidating at first but (trust me)
profound impact on me and really this will happen if you put in the
helped me get the most from my time.
practice sessions. My hope with this article is to share some of my As the student becomes more advanced, I’ll challenge them with
applications for thinking outside the box and hopefully inspire you some creative exercises that can be applied to all of the beats we
to do the same. are working on. These exercises are all visual. In other words, we’re
To me, books are great for introducing and breaking down altering or adding to what is currently written on the page. This
the fundamentals of what we approach as drummers. Then it’s approach can be difficult in the beginning, but I love the challenge
up to each individual student and teacher to think creatively it poses for students. For dynamics, I’ll have them play a cross-stick
as they explore those ideas on the kit. I believe if you approach (also known as a side stick) for every snare hit written. Much like the
your practice time in this fashion, you will get the most from your exercise with the ride, it really opens the students ears up to how
invested time. I tell my students that once they become comfortable many different versions (and feels) you can get from any given beat
with any given beat or exercise, that they are just beginning the just by moving around to a different voicing on the kit.
journey. At this stage, the trick is to think musically. Ask yourself, For my beginning students, I like working out of a book called The
how can I approach this exercise as if I were playing a song? Here’s a Drum Set Musician by Rod Morgenstein. There’s a chapter that has a
few ideas I share with my students. series of beats set up in two columns on each page. The first column
When I started teaching, I was surprised at how many students has the hi-hat playing a steady flow of 8th notes for the kick and
would play one measure of a beat or groove and then stop. They snare pattern, and the second column has the same kick and snare
would look at me as if they had mastered it and were ready to move pattern but with steady 16th notes played on the hi-hat with one

52 Modern Drummer October 2022

hand. The 16th note version obviously lends itself to slower, mid- If you open on beat one, you’ll close on the “e”. If you open on the
tempo grooves. After my students can play the page comfortably, I’ll “e”, you’ll close on the “&” etc. With this exercise complete, you’ll have
then have them go back to the top of the page and play the second sixteen more versions for each beat. If you move your hi-hat pattern
column for second time. However, this time I ask them to use to the ride and catch the open hi-hats with your left hand, you’ll
alternating sticking RLRL. This approach has your right hand coming then have thirty-two different one bar variations of the same basic
down and playing 2 and 4 on the snare. By changing the sticking, beat! Now that’s thinking “Outside of the Box.”
these beats feel differently, and become much more challenging I also like to challenge my student’s ears during lessons. To do
to get comfortable. But, once the student settles into the new idea, this, I’ll open a book to a page which the student is very familiar.
they now have a library of 16th note hi-hat beats that can now be I will randomly pick one of the beats and play that beat (without
played at slow or fast tempos. telling the student which one it is) for four measures. The student’s
Here’s a good way to work on 4-way independence. Once the job is to identify the beat I am playing. This forces them to listen to
student is comfortable with any given beat, I’ll have them move what I’m playing and associate it with what is written on the page.
their right hand to the ride. Then we practice adding a simple left This is the opposite from the normal learning process of looking
foot pattern on the hi-hat. This new part is played with the left at a figure and then playing it. As the student gets better at this,
foot, not your hands. Again, this is all visual, you have no written I’ll challenge them by only playing one bar of the beat before they
reference for what you’re adding to the beat. We cover several must identify it.
possible patterns. We start simple: 2 and 4, progress to steady I’d like to share another cool exercise I do with my more
quarter notes or steady 8th notes, and finally every “&” or up-beat. advanced students. I call it the subdivision fill challenge. The student
Adding these variations really changes the feel of the groove. Now plays a four- bar phrase with the beat of their choice. I have a series
you have three or four versions for every beat in your vocabulary. of flash cards that have the six main subdivisions on them, quarter
These hi-hat notes, 8th notes, 8th
patterns really note triplets, 16th
help add “color” notes, 16th note
to the feel. It’s
amazing how I tell my students triplets and 32nd
notes. The student

that once
many variations of is to play their beat
one beat that you for three measures.
can play. I’ve had On measure four,
students spend they become they must play
months on one an improvised
page creating comfortable with fill that involves
different versions a steady flow of
of beats that aren’t any given beat or the subdivision
written out. I show them on
We’ll practice exercise, that they the flash card. In
Naijah Ashbaugh

some open hi-hat the beginning, I’ll

patterns as well. I
like to take a beat
are just beginning show the card right
away. This way the
that has steady
8th notes on the
the journey. student will have
three measures of
hi-hat. We’ll then time to prepare for
practice opening the random fill. As
the hi-hat for each they get better, I
individual 8th note. For example, the first version will have the hat show them the card later and later. The latest I would show the card
opening on one and closing on the “&” of one. Then we’ll open on is at the beginning of the third measure because this only gives
the “&” of one and close on the downbeat of two etc. We’ll work our the student one measure to get ready for the fill. I’ve actually had
way through the beat until we’ve covered all of the possibilities. students get so good at this that I was able to show the card on beat
When we’re done, we have eight different versions of the same two of the fourth measure, giving them only a split second before
beat. Remember, your written kick and snare pattern has to stay they have to play the fill.
the same throughout the exercise. Students quickly realize the I hope you’ve enjoyed these ideas. These are just a few ways you
challenge of controlling the opening of the left foot pattern. Once might apply creative thinking to your practice or teaching. “Thinking
that’s comfortable, and just for fun, I’ll have them move the right Outside of the Box” has led me to places and ideas I would never
hand hi-hat pattern over to the ride. Now they must keep the ride have found otherwise. I’m sure it will do the same for you. The
pattern steady and consistent with their right hand while the left coolest thing about this approach is that there is no “wrong way” to
hand is going to play the new open hi-hat parts. When the open be creative. I tell my students, as long as you can control your idea
hi-hat lands where there is a snare hit, I’ll have the students keep the and play it in time, the sky is the limit! This is your chance to add
left hand on the snare and use the right hand to “quickly” swing over your own “personal stamp” to your playing and teaching. I challenge
and catch the open hat. When a student has worked through this every drummer out there to try my approach and see what great
idea, they will have sixteen versions for every single beat written out ideas that you can create. As always, enjoy the journey.
on that page. As you probably guessed, the same exercise can be
done with beats that have a steady flow of 16th notes on the hi-hat.
For that, you’re going to open the hi hat for one 16th note this time.
Check out Billy’s Modern Drummer profile page
at moderndrummer.com
October 2022 Modern Drummer 53
 LESSONS

Triplets to Sixteenth notes

By Brendan Buckley

T his is an exercise that I call Triplets

to Sixteenth notes. This entire
exercise can be played over the foot
on just stuff like this. I
would be so fascinated
with the vocabulary, the
patterns written in bar A, B, and C. For manipulation of rhythm
starters, I will play a bar of triplets and and syncopation, and time.
then I’ll play sixteenth notes. That’s It made me think, I have
cool but what I like to do is change all this stuff and I’m saying
the groupings of the sixteenth notes so much less than what
into (1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a) as seen that guy was saying. So,
on Line 1. It’s all alternate sticking I decided to pare down
that will wind up sounding almost the drums to work on
like you’re speeding up and slowing the rhythm, melody, and
down the triplet, so it’s a little bit of a syncopation.
time shift. I’ve shared a lot of love for
this with Efrain Toro. It’s pushing and pulling the time just with these Line 5 is a bar of triplets and a bar of eighth notes. That’s fairly easy.
types of subdivisions. Line 6 is a little harder to do, it’s all the e’s and a’s.

Line 1 is (1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a). You can just try doing two beats of the triplets and two beats of
Line 2 will be (1 e & 2 e &). sixteenth notes, or two bars of the triplets and two bars of sixteenth
Line 3 is a bar of triplets and a bar of (1 e a 2 e a 3 e a 4 e a). notes. Then you can take it between two different drums. Or, you
Line 4 is ( e & a e & a e & a e & a), so it’s missing the downbeats. can play it between the floor tom and the rim - right hand on the
floor tom and left hand on the rim. You can play all six lines in a row.
Keep in mind, these are all alternate stickings, so it should sound Or, one more step, right hand and right foot on the cymbal and then
like you’re just changing gears on triplets. What you can do is keep left hand on the snare.
on practicing these and then you can change the foot patterns These are exercises, but we can put them together so it sounds
underneath, or you can mix-and-match the hand patterns. This is all more like you’re just talking on the drum set. You don’t have to get
a development to help you feel different types of subdivisions and too crazy with the amount of surfaces. It’s good to start simple with
to help you come up with ideas for solos. one, two, or three surfaces, and just mix them all up. The idea is to
I started working on this stuff because I was living in Miami, get comfortable with it and then mix them all up and use them like
and I would see really killer bongo players with just two little little different pieces of vocabulary that can turn into a phrase, and
drums between their knees and they would solo for nine minutes then into a sentence, and repeat.

54 Modern Drummer October 2022

October 2022 Modern Drummer 55
 40
Control Studies
JAZZ DRUMMER’S WORKSHOP

Joe Morello: Master Studies

sticking exercise
In our further celebration of Joe Morello’s legendary book Master Studies; in the next few months Modern Drummer
The purpose of these exercises is to develop the ability to go from one sticking
will be bringing you one of the best and most beneficial sections of the book and Joe’s teaching, the Control
to another,
Studies. without
While this first changing
part entitled theexercise,
sticking sound.hasInsimilarities
other words,to Stickeach exercise
Control, should
Joe has put his own twist on it.
sound as though it is being played
Remember relaxation one of the keys to control. with one hand. You should start by practicing
each exercise individually. After you reach a certain proficiency with each one,
try playing
Control Studies them together, that is, going directly from the 8ths to the triplets, and
then into
The purpose theexercises
of these 16ths. is Beto sure that
develop theyou
abilitydoto not tense
go from one up when
sticking you play
to another, the changing
without faster the sound.
In other words, each exercise should sound as though it is being played with
sections; you should be just as relaxed when playing the 16ths as you are when one hand. You should start by practicing
each exercise individually. After you reach a certain proficiency with each one, try playing them together, that is, going
you play the 8ths.
directly from the eighths to the triplets, and then to the sixteenths. Be sure that you do not tense up when you play the
faster sections; You should be just as relaxed when playing the sixteenths as you are when you play the eighths.

Sticking Exercise

?C œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L

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R R L L R R L L R R L L R R L L

41

? 12 œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
? 8 R œ Lœ œR œ Rœ œL œ Rœ œL œ L œ œ R œ Lœ œR œ Rœ œL œ Rœ œL œ L œ œ
R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L

?
?
œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
œR œR œ Lœ œR œ Rœ Lœ œR œ Rœ œ L œ Rœ œR œ Lœ œR œ Rœ œL œ Rœ œ
R R L L R R L L R R L L R R L L R R L L R R L L

? œœ œœ œ œœ œœ œ œœ œœ œœ œ œœ œ œ œ œœ œœ œ œœ œœ œœ œ œœ œœ œ .. œ
? R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R
R L R R L R L L R L R R L R L L R L R R L R L L

? œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œœ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
R R L R R L R R L R R L R R L R R L R R L R R L

? œœœœœœœœœœœœ œœœœœœœœœœœœ ..
R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L

?c œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
56 Modern Drummer October 2022
R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L
 ? œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œœœœœœœœœœœœ ..
R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L

?c œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
R L R L R L R L R L R L R L R L

? œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
R R L L R R L L R R L L R R L L

? œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
R L R R L R L L R L R R L R L L

? œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
R R L R R L R R L R R L R R L R

? œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ
ography R L L R L L R L L R L L R L L R

Check out Joe’s Modern Drummer profile page

and get your copy of Master Studies at
moderndrummer.com

October 2022 Modern Drummer 57

lo was born on July 17, 1929. in Springfield Mass. any job he was called for. As a result, his musical experiences
mpaired vision since birth, he devoted himself to ranged from rudimental military playing to weddings and
 JAZZ PERSPECTIVE

The Polyrhythm Conversion Timetable

Peter Magadini

T he following comparative timetable illustrates how polymeters and polyrhythms work

with one another when played at the same tempo and time signature.
The first fundamental polymeter starts with with 3 over-4 notes (3:4), followed by
5:4, 6:4, 7:4, and 8:4. Within each polymeter, one can subdivide the rhythm into any
combination of eighth, triplet, sixteenth, or thirty-second notes. When these combinations
are played concurrently with one of the five polymeters, they become polyrhythms.
At the bottom of the pyramid are the most dissonant polymeters: 11:4, 13:4, 17:4,
and 19:4. The dissonant polymeters complete the cycle of possible combinations. The
main focus of the table, however, are the
“Pete your book changed my life” polymeters 3:4. 5:4, 6:4, 7:4, and 8:4. These
are the most practical to learn and easiest to
–Vinnie Colaiuta play.
Polymeters and polyrhythms are
also about mental independence. When learning, it is crucial to practice counting one
polymeter (aloud or silently) while playing or clapping the other rhythm—then switch
the meters so you play and count them in reverse. This process trains the brain to think
naturally in polyrhythms, which is the ultimate goal.
Studying with Pete Magadini
Definitions helped me break boundaries in
Poly: More than one.
Polymeter: Two different but related meters played at the same time. my understanding, and playing, of
Polyrhythm: Rhythms within the sub-structure of a polymeter—from polymeters come
polyrhythm.
polyrhythmic time. Pete is a world-
Ratios: Comparative fractions defining the rate of speed of one meter played class educator and musician, plus
concurrently with the other, e.g., 6:4 is the mathematical ratio of 1.5 to 1, or alternatively
stated, 1&1/2 times faster than a basic 4/4 underlying four-beat pulse. he is a lovely human being, a
Consonant: Polyrhythms that maintain a rhythmic connection and flow with the
underlying time signature, e.g., 3:4
potent combination!
Dissonant: Polyrhythms that do not flow naturally with the underlying time signature, –Steve Smith
e.g., 11:13

The Elements Of The Compative Table Of Notes And Rests

58 Modern Drummer October 2022

 For more information go to
petermagadini.com

Check out Peter’s Modern Drummer profile page at moderndrummer.com

October 2022 Modern Drummer 59
 ROCK AND JAZZ CLINIC
Double Bass Drumming
by Joe Franco

T his month we will continue with more fills from Joe Franco’s groundbreaking book, Double Bass Drumming. This month
Modern Drummer is including Joe’s explanation of eighth note triplet double bass fills using his Single Stroke System,
and we are including several of Joe’s fantastic sounding double bass fills from the book.

Eighth Note Triplet Fills

In this section fills are formed by breaking up continuous eighth note triplets between both hands and both feet. When
playing these fills, use the single stroke system for both your hands and feet. That is, start with your lead hand or foot and
then alternate strokes. Here is the key to playing these fills.

By using this system your lead hand and foot will fall on the one of the measure following the fill. For example, for a right-
handed player:

Practice playing these fills with a shuffle beat similar to this:

60 Modern Drummer October 2022

October 2022 Modern Drummer 61
 Check out Joe’s Modern Drummer profile page and get your copy of
Double Bass Drumming at moderndrummer.com
62 Modern Drummer October 2022
TEACHERS FORUM

Open Handed Drumming is to play ‘Open Hearted’

The ‘Open Handed’ Mindset
By Chris Lesso

Y ou might have seen me play and noticed I do things a little

differently. By now you know ‘different is good’, because there
are no rules! The way I play is called OPEN HANDED DRUMMING,
switched to crossed. Playing with crossed hands FEELS a certain way,
and might bring to life the heroes you love. Remember, this is ART
and EXPRESSION, and from that lens there are no rules. This way you
which simply means not crossing your hands. I discovered this way are empowered with a CHOICE; a choice which I, like so many
of drumming through asking better questions. WHY have things drummers out there, were never given.
been done the way they’ve always been done, and WHAT IF we did it
differently? Evolution happens from the next generation challenging OPEN HANDED DRUMMING IS TO PLAY ‘OPEN HEARTED’
the ones that came before. Could there be a I once had a student from China tell me that learning open handed
better way? drumming felt ‘open hearted’, and that
Imagine yourself playing the the Chinese character for ‘open heart’
piano. With 88 keys in front of you, also means ‘happy’, ‘joy’, and ‘to rejoice’.
your left hand covers the sounds That’s exactly why we do it! Playing even
underneath it and your right hand a little open handed transforms us to our
does the same. If someone asked you ‘2.0’, a new level to boldly step into. We
to play the notes on the left side with rejoice in what makes us unique, rejecting
your right hand, you might ask ‘why?’, the illusion of safety in mimicking the
because wasted effort will only slow footprints of another. The mindset of open
you down. The goal on the piano is handed drumming is to embrace potential
to reach all 88 keys effortlessly and and possibility, moving with courage and
efficiently as the MUSIC directs us. vulnerability with a faith in the best of who
It makes no difference if you’re right we are.
handed or left handed, and you don’t Meeting our drums with the open
need to flip the piano around. You handed stance of arms entered and chest
use the strengths you have, while out, we bring a steely readiness to the
working on your weaknesses, and doing the best you can with what kit before even playing a note. This is entirely different than the old
you have right now. Why are the drums any different? Yet only a few guard of traditional crossing with a closed stance. Arriving at our
drummers dare greatly by choosing to play this way. The drumset drums with the body language of inner strength, we bring an open
is just over 100 years old and we have a long way to go, so we need heart to the rhythms we create. Rejoice in you being YOU. Have the
YOU to drive the instrument forward by being on the cutting edge of audacity to RETHINK the instrument. That’s how it got to where it is
future evolution. When you push the limits in the art of drumming, today, propelled by those who dared greatly to disrupt. It’s not for
you evolve as well. Lead the charge by being different! This way, more everybody, but behind the safety of the known, we can’t own the
of you will come through the drums. Be proud to be one of the rare moment by being bold and real. I get excited by the edginess of not
ones that embrace change. playing it safe. Playing open handed and ‘open hearted’ means you’re
I started drumming at nine years old. My teacher basically told stepping into the arena to discover the uncommon greatness that
me, ‘Everybody else plays drums cross handed, so do it like this lives in you. It’s facing the fear of uncovering something one of a kind,
because it’s always been done this way.’ He meant well, but this maybe even something no one’s ever thought of or done before.
kind of thinking holds back evolution and stifles individuality. By
having more FREEDOM, we can bravely speak from our hearts more To unleash your best self through drumming, get your free course
authentically, sounding more effortlessly like US in the process. If we at chrislesso.com This is a chapter from Chris’ book ‘LTR DRUMMING
mindlessly imitate the past without asking, ‘What if?’, we risk blending METHOD: LAUNCH!’ out now at chrislesso.com Get the free open
into mediocrity by sounding like just another of the faceless crowd. handed drumming video lesson and workbook at
The goal is to speak YOUR voice on the drums, loud and proud! chrislesso.com/OHD Whether you’re brand new to open handed
drumming or are already doing it and want to raise your game, here’s
OPEN HANDED DRUMMING empowers you by: an essential masterclass on how to take it to the next level! bit.ly/
UNLOCKING YOUR CREATIVITY openhandeddrummingbring a steely readiness to the kit before
STRENGTHENING YOUR WEAKER SIDE even playing a note. This is entirely different
FEEDING YOUR COURAGE than the old guard of traditional crossing with a closed stance.

Armed with these qualities, you can conquer anything. Later you can Chris Lesso is an expert on optimizing the power of drumming to
choose to play crossed, but at least by that time you’ll have a deeper improve focus, confidence, and self expression. His LTR (Life Through
sense of creativity with a stronger weak side working for you. With a Rhythm) is an attitude and way of life, using drumming as a force to
strong foundation, you can make creative choices that reflect YOU, reach our fullest potential, and live the art of possibility every day.
and not blindly follow tradition just because ‘it’s always been done Chris is sponsored by Sonor, REMO, Sabian, Vic Firth, and Prologix.
that way.’
I’ve had many students that started open handed and then Check out Chris’s Modern Drummer profile page
at moderndrummer.com
October 2022 Modern Drummer 63
 œ œ œ œ œ œ œŒ œ Œ œ œ œœ œŒ œ Œ œ œ œ œ œŒ œ Œ
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ROCK PERSPECTIVES
z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
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Sixteenth Note Triplets
.
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2 e + a
2 e + a
C
2 e +celebration
ontinuing Modern Drummer’s a of the 50th anniversary of Carmine Appice’s Ultimate Realistic Rock book,
Part
this month we present a sound often associated with Carmine’s playing in Vanilla Fudge, many 5 Bonham’s
of John
CD 1
Part
Led Zeppelin grooves, and later with Dennis Chambers’ funky fusion playing, Sixteenth Note 5 Part 5 month
Triplets. This
CD 1 CD 1
Carmine will teach us how to count and use sixteenth note triplets Sixteenth Note Triplets
TRK 4on your snare and bass drum to help your grooves
come to life and add excitement to the music. TRK 4 Sixteenth
TRK 4 Sixteenth Note Triplets
Note Triplets
3 3

Realistic Sixteenth Note Tripletstriplets are counted: œ3 œ 3œ œ œ 3œ

Sixteenth-note Two groups of sixteenth-note
œ œ œ œ œ1œ1 œtiœtitataœ ++œ tiœtitataœ Two groups of sixteenth-note
3

Sixteenth-note Sixteenth-note triplets are counted:

triplets are
Sixteenth note triplets are counted 1 ti ta & ticounted:
ta. The two œ 1œgroups
ti ta + of ta Two groups
ti sixteenth of sixteenth-note
note triplets equal 2 eighth notes. And the
triplets
1 & from the sixteenth noteequal two
triplets eighth
lines notes:
up with the 1 + The secret for reading sixteenth-note triplets is
1&œ ofœ the eighth notes, this places the ti ta of the sixteenth note
triplets equal two eighth œ notes:
œ 1 + The secret for reading sixteenth-note triplets is
triplets between simple.
triplets the
equal two
eighth The
notesfirst
eighth 16th
The note
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1 + offorthe
The triplet
secret
reading isfor
16th usually
reading
note leftsixteenth-note
out:
triplets is simple. The fitriplets
rst 16thisnote of the triplet is

≈ œ 3œ
simple.
usually left out: The simple. The first
first 16th note16th note
of the of the
triplet triplet is
is usually usually left out:
3left out:

≈œ œ 3
≈
1 tiœ taœ
1 ti ta 1 ti ta
therefore, the triplet fits betweenthe eighth notes that are being played played on
Therefore, the triplet fits between
therefore, the 8th notes that are being eighth
played on the cymbal.
therefore,the the tripletthe
Cymbal. fitstriplet fits betweenthe
betweenthe
Example: eighth notes thatnotes
are that are
being beingplayed
played playedon
played on
5 5 5 5
the Cymbal. Example:

5≈ ≈5≈5≈ œ œ ≈5≈≈5 œ œ ≈5≈≈5 œ œ ≈≈5 œ œ

the Cymbal. Example:

œ œ œ3œœ œ œ3œœ œ œ 3œœ œ 3œ œ

3 3 33 3 3 3
Sixteenth-note
problem is triplet figures are can
3
Sixteenth note triplet figures are easy to play if this is kept in mind. The only possible a fast tempo, which
easy to play if this is kept in mind. The only
be solved by playing these exercises very slowly. You can always gradually possible problem—a
Sixteenth-note
Sixteenth-note
increase the triplet fast, basic
triplet
tempo.figures are beat—
figures are
easy tocan
easy
playbe
iftosolved
play
this ifby
is kept playing
this keptthese
inismind. in
The exercises
mind.
onlyThe verypossible
only
possible slowly. Gradually
problem—a problem—a increase
fast,
fast, basic the tempo.
basic
beat— beat—
canNote can
be solvedbe solved
by for
playingby playing
these these exercises very slowly. Gradually increase
exercises very slowly. Gradually increase the tempo. the tempo.
Sixteenth Triplets Snare Drum
1.
1. 1.
Cym z z
20
z z z z z z
zCym z . z z zz zz z z z3 z zz z z
..
. Œ 5 ≈ 53 5 ‰
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5 ‘ ‘ ‘
Cym
.. ŒSD .. Œ 5 .. ..
œ Œ> Œ>
SD
SD œ> œ > œ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
œBD œ œ Œ œ Œœ œœ Œ œ Œ
BD
BD

2.
Cym z z z z 3 z z z z 3
.. ΠŠ5 5 ΠŠ5 5 ..
SD 5 5 ‘ ‘ ‘
BD œ œ Œ œ œ Œ
2 + ti ta 4 + ti ta
3.
Cym z 3 z z z z 3 z z z
.. ≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈55‰ ..
> > ‘ ‘ ‘
SD 5 5
BD œ œ Œ œ œ Œ

4.
Cym z z z z 3 z 3 z z z
.. Œ ≈55≈55‰ ..
SD
>5 >5 ‘ ‘ ‘
BD œ œ Œ œ œ Œ

5.j
z 3
Cym z3 z z z 3 z3 z z z 3
5 .. 2022
≈ 5October ≈55‰ ..
64 SD
Modern Drummer
>5 ≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰ >5 ≈ 5 5 ‘ ‘ ‘
BD ‰ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ
Cym z z z z 3 z 3 z z z
.. Œ ≈55≈55‰ ..
SD
>5 >5 ‘ ‘ ‘
BD œ œ Œ œ œ Œ

5. j
Cym z 3 z3 z z z 3 z3 z z z 3
≈ 5 5 .. ≈ 5 5 ‰ 5 ≈55≈55‰ 5 ≈55 ..
SD
> > ‘ ‘ ‘
BD ‰ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ

Sixteenth-Note Triplets For Bass Drum

6.
Cym z z z z z z z z
.. ΠΠ..
> > ‘ ‘ ‘
SD 5 5
BD œ œ Œ ≈œœ≈œœŒ
3 3
7.
Cym z z z z z z z z
.. ΠΠ..
> > ‘ ‘ ‘
SD 5 5
BD ≈œœ≈œœŒ œ œ Œ
3 3
8.
Cym z z z z z z z z
.. Π..
21
Œ
> > ‘ ‘ ‘
SD 5 5
BD ≈œœ≈œœŒ ≈œœ≈œœŒ
3 3 3 3

9.
Cym z z z z z z z z
. Π.
3
≈55Œ
. > > ‘ ‘ ‘ .
SD 5 5
BD
œ œ Œ œ ≈œœŒ
3

10.
Cym z z z z z z z z
. 5 .
SD
. 5 5 5 ‘ ‘ ‘ .
BD
‰ ≈œœ‰ ≈œœ‰ ≈œœ‰ ≈œœ
3 3 3 3

11.
Cym z z z z z z z z
. ≈ 5 5 ‰ .
3 3 3
≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰
. > > ‘ ‘ ‘ .
SD 5 5
BD
œ œ Œ œ ≈ œ œ œ
3
1 ti ta 2 + ti ta 3 ti ta + ti ta
12. j
Cym z z z z z z z z z
. ≈55‰ .
3 3 3
≈ 5 5 Œ ≈55
. > 5
>
5 ‘ ‘ ‘ .
SD

BD
‰ œ œ Œ œ ≈œœŒ
3

13. j
Cym z z z z z z z z z October 2022 Modern Drummer 65
3 3 3 3 3
 ≈ 5 5 . ≈55‰ Œ ≈55 .
. >5 >5 ‘ ‘ ‘ .
SD

BD
‰ œ œ Œ œ ≈œœŒ
3

13. j
Cym z z z z z z z z z
. ≈ 5 5 ‰ .
3 3 3 3 3
≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5
. > > ‘ ‘ .
SD 5 5
BD
‰ œ ≈ œ œ Œ œ ≈ œ œ Œ
3 3

14. j
Cym z z z z z z z z z
3 22
. ≈ 5 5 ‰ .
3 3 3 3
≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5
. >5 >5 ‘ ‘ .
SD

BD
‰ œ œ œ œ Œ œ œ œ œ Œ
3 3

Cym
15.
z z z z z z z z
•••••••••
. ΠΠ.
. > > ‘ ‘ ‘ .
SD 5 5
BD ≈œœ≈œœ≈œœ≈œœ≈œœ≈œœ≈œœ≈œœ
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

Twelve-Bar Exercise
Sixteenth-Note Triplet

j
Cym z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
. ≈ 5 5 ‰
3 3 3 3 3 3
≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5 Œ ≈55‰
SD . >5 >5 >5 >5
BD ‰ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ

z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
3
Œ Œ Œ ≈ 5 5 Œ
> > > >
5 5 5 5
≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ œ ≈ œ œ Œ
3 3 3

z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
3 3 3 3 3 3
≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5 ‰
> > > >
5 5 5 5
œ ≈ œ œ Œ œ ≈ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ œ œ Œ
3 3

z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
3 3 3 3
≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5 ≈ 5 5 ‰ ≈ 5 5 5
>5 >5 5 5 5
œ œ œ œ Œ œ œ œ œ Œ ‰ ≈ œ œ ‰ ≈ œ œ ‰ ≈ œ œ ‰ ≈ œ œ
3 3 3 3 3 3

66 Modern Drummer October 2022 ••••

 z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
3 3
Œ ≈55≈55‰ Œ Œ
> > > >
5 5 5 5
œ œ Œ œ œ Œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
ΠΠΠ.
>5 >5 5 5 5 .
≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ Œ ≈ œ œ ≈ œ œ Œ ‰ ≈ œ œ ‰ ≈ œ œ Œ Œ
3 3 3 3 3 3

The next pages will be a combination of all the rhythms learned up

to this point, plus some new ones. You should be able to play these if
you learned the preceding exercises.

CD 1

Part 6 TRK 5

Review Exercises

The following exercises will develop one’s ability to improvise on

the rhythms preveiously learned. In this section the rhythms appear
in 12, 14 and 16 bar exercises and solos. Play these slowly at first.
Repeat at gradually faster tempos.

Cym z z z z 3 z z z z z z z z z z z z
.. Œ ≈ 5 5 Œ Œ
SD
>5 >5 5
> 5 5 5 5
>5 5
BD œ œ Œ œ œ Œ œ œ œ œ œ œ Œ

*
z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z
5 5 5 5 5 5 ‰ 5 5 ‰ 5 5 ‰ 5 5 ‰
œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ ≈ œ
1 e
œ ≈ œ
2 e
œ ≈ œ
3 e
œ ≈4 œe œ
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e DIG+ a
DOWN ITAL
LOAD
INSIDE CODE

SPECIAL THANKS:
David Hakim, David Frangioni, and all at Modern Drummer,
Leslie Gold, Bianca, Nicholas, Moses “the Dog”,
and all my endorsement companies “you know who you are”
Check out Carmine’s Modern Drummer
profile page and his book collection at
moderndrummer.com

October 2022 Modern Drummer 67

 CREATIVE PERCUSSION CONTROLERS

MIDI 2.0 - The biggest advance in Music Technology in 40 years

By Tony Verderosa

In this month’s column, we will focus on MIDI, discuss the role of the
MIDI Association with the continuing evolution of MIDI technology
and take a close look at the expanded features coming soon with
have to worry about upgrading your equipment to stay compatible
with the new systems and software changes that are coming up with
MIDI 2.0. MIDI 2.0 is the biggest advance in Music Technology in 40
MIDI 2.0. The upshot is that big changes are on the way and these years. Here are just a few of the most important changes that are in
changes will have a massive impact on the way you create and development RIGHT NOW.
produce music. There are new features and new standards being
prototyped, tested, and adopted RIGHT NOW. MIDI 2.0 Changes Device Communication
I was privileged to have a long discussion with my friend, Athan To A True Dialogue
Billias, who is the President of the MIDI Association. To say that MIDI For the past 40 years, MIDI messages went in just one direction. With
2.0 will be an enormous leap forward for music production would be MIDI 1.0, we have a MIDI OUT port and then a separate MIDI IN port.
an understatement. There is a lot to unpack here, so without question, MIDI 1.0 was never “Bi-Directional”. One of the biggest upgrades to
my coverage on MIDI 2.0 will be a multi-part series. the MIDI 2.0 spec is that we now have a true two-way communication
MIDI is one of those tools most of us use every day. MIDI is always between MIDI devices. It’s no longer just a monologue (a one-way
there in the background every time we turn on our keyboards and conversation).
electronic drums. We record what we play from our MIDI drums and MIDI 2.0 allows machines, computers, and MIDI instruments to
MIDI keyboards directly into the laptop, iPad, or computer and none talk with each other, query each other as to what their capabilities
of this would be possible without MIDI technology. MIDI is capturing are, and then auto-configure themselves to work better for YOU, the
all your gestures in a way that provides astounding flexibility once the musician. This is a fundamentally different view of MIDI compared
performance data is in the computer or in a dedicated MIDI Sampling to the way people thought of MIDI in the past. At this point you
workstation like the Roland MV-1 Verselab or an MPC Live. may be thinking, “ Whoa - this is big news. Maybe I should wait to
The world’s first Musical Instrument Digital Interface arrived almost buy a new MIDI keyboard or MIDI electronic drum set because MIDI
40 years ago, and it completely changed Hollywood and the way 2.0 is coming soon! “ You would be wrong to think like this! The
soundtracks were produced and recorded. MIDI Machine control MIDI Association is working to improve the customer experience
revolutionized Hollywood in the early 90’s because composers and they don’t intend on “breaking MIDI” which has been working
could run hardware synths in sync with an 80-piece orchestra which beautifully for 40 years. To that end, they developed something called
was never done before! They had 2 different 24 track analog tape the MIDI-CI as a core feature in MIDI 2.0. MIDI-CI ensures backwards
machines in sync with a computer-based MIDI sequencer running all compatibility. There are many music companies currently prototyping
the MIDI data. MIDI technology has impacted record production and and designing new features for MIDI 2.0 using a special tool called
all areas of music production in profound ways since 1983. A tectonic PROTOZOA.
shift similar in size and scope to the early 1990’s is about to take place
once again, with the introduction of MIDI 2.0.
For MIDI to work seamlessly across all instruments and computers,
cooperation is needed between a diverse list of music software
developers, music instrument manufacturers and companies that
create computer operating systems. These companies belong to the
MIDI Association. The common goal has always been to ensure a
great customer experience with MIDI.
The MIDI Association (www.MIDI.org) is the catalyst and the
organization responsible for bringing everyone to the table to reach
this common goal. Here is a short list of the companies working
together to develop further advancements with MIDI 2.0: Roland,
Korg, Yamaha, Apple, Microsoft, Google, BitWig, Spectrasonics,
Arturia, Alesis, Universal Audio, and dozens of others worldwide.

Background and Introduction to MIDI 2.0 Protozoa-USB MIDI 2.0 Tool

In 1983, music instrument companies from around the world worked
together with a common goal of creating a revolutionary new PROTOZOA is a MIDI 2.0 hardware device that was developed to
standardized specification known as MIDI 1.0. 2023 will be the 40th enable research and development. Athan Billias, President of the
Anniversary of MIDI. This was the world’s first music instrument digital MIDI Association describes the development situation this way,
interface. MIDI eventually provided the ability to merge the world of “MIDI has the worst business model of all time! What we do is we
computers, live performance, recording, smart phones, audio mixing work on difficult problems, we solve them, then once we solve them,
and stage lighting. MIDI changed the way the world creates, performs we give away that stuff for FREE! We work on upgrades to the MIDI
and records music. Now with the development of the new MIDI 2.0, 2.0 specs, then once they are adopted, we put them up and then
all these capabilities will be greatly expanded upon while maintaining anyone can download them and use them for FREE. We also helped
backwards compatibility. Any MIDI 1.0 software and hardware already fund the development the Protozoa device. The Protozoa is a little
in use will be completely compatible with MIDI 2.0. You will never computer board that uses Raspberry PICO CPUs because they are

68 Modern Drummer October 2022

openly accessible and extremely affordable. The MIDI association messages that you can understand - I can accommodate backwards
has sent more than 55 of these MIDI 2.0 Protozoa devices to various compatibility - no worries!” The MIDI-CI diagram illustrates the
music companies that belong to the MIDI association - and they are environment.
working on prototyping all the new MIDI 2.0 functions.
In the past, music companies and developers could simply buy Higher Resolution, More Controllers, Better Timing
a chip that has USB on it already. Many companies are not experts For MIDI 2.0 to deliver next level musical expressiveness, MIDI 2.0 is
in building a USB MIDI hardware device. The Protozoa is a MIDI 2.0 redefining the role of performance controllers. This is what translates
hardware device. You can connect to this to the Apple OS Monterey your human performance gestures such as sticking, velocity and
system right now. All the prototype information will get vetted by phrase articulations into data that computers can understand. MIDI
the MIDI association and then AmeNote Inc. (a technology leader 2.0 provides over 32,000 controllers, including controls for individual
in MIDI 2.0) will make all this source code available as open source. notes. Check out these specs comparing MIDI 1.0 with MIDI 2.0! MIDI
You won’t have to figure out how to make a USB 2.0 MIDI device. You 1.0 Controllers have resolution for 127 steps. MIDI 2.0 controllers
can just download the code from our public GitHub and just use it. have resolution for 4,294,967,296 steps!!!! (Yes! That is 4 BILLION
You won’t have to worry about how to translate between MIDI 2.0 STEPS of resolution in MIDI 2.0) This higher resolution gives MIDI 2.0
to MIDI 1 or from MIDI 1.0 to MIDI 2.0 -you can just download the a more continuous, analog instrument feel. How this enormous leap
source code and use it for free. in controller resolution impacts the feel of next generation electronic
We are prototyping because we want to make sure we get it drums is yet to be seen. I am sure the engineers at Roland, Alesis,
RIGHT. This is an ongoing, industry-wide initiative by over 50 MIDI and Yamaha are working on exploring new MIDI 2.0 capabilities right
Association companies to develop MIDI 2.0 products and services. now. New Note ON options have also been added for articulation
With these advances, companies around the world now have the control and precise note pitch.
software and hardware tools needed to build, test, and ensure the MIDI Association President, Athan Billias states, “ Since MIDI’s
compatibility of their MIDI 2.0 products.” Let’s take a closer look at genesis, companies that are traditionally fierce competitors have
MIDI-CI. chosen cooperation as the best way to solve difficult problems—
and to contribute those solutions at no charge back to the global
MIDI-CI Backwards Compatibility community, for the benefit of musicians, artists, and engineers
MIDI 2.0 can also exchange information on functionality which is everywhere.”
crucial for backwards compatibility. The very core of MIDI 2.0 is Here are some video examples of new MIDI 2.0 features. I envision
based on “MIDI Capability Inquiry” also known as MIDI-CI. Basically, these functions working beautifully on MIDI drum pads and MIDI
what happens is that the first thing a MIDI device does, is it goes out drum controllers whether you choose to use your fingers on a
and greets other devices on the network, “Hey - What are you? Are drumhead or activate these features by pressing or running your
you something new?” “Do you know anything about MIDI 2.0? “ It drumsticks across the drumhead. Let’s hope the engineers at various
asks questions like, “Hey - Can you do a MIDI Capability Inquiry?” If drum companies are watching closely and designing the future of
a newer MIDI 2.0 device doesn’t get a satisfactory answer to those drumming!
questions, it will say, “OK - I am ONLY going to send you MIDI 1.0
MIDI 2.0 Per Note Controller Volume
https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=okrZYm5OJzo&t=22s

MIDI 2.0 Per Note Pitch Bend

https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=x2QxFnsKWMQ

MIDI 2.0 Direct Pitch control Q7.9

Inversion, Tuning
https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=FWf2y7dzULQ

MIDI 2.0 Direct Pitch control Q7.9

Harmonic Minor
https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=zOysm_lZJmg&t=2s

Dynamic Response and Timing

The dynamic response, which is set
by the MIDI velocity parameter, has
also been upgraded. Major timing
improvements will also be available in
MIDI 2.0 and can also be utilized in older
MIDI 1.0 devices.

October 2022 Modern Drummer 69

 Profiles, Set Up Time, Workflow had a Leslie cabinet feature. They all had percussion switches. There
MIDI 2.0 gear can now have PROFILES that can dynamically configure was no uniform and consistent standard when accessing these
a device for a particular application. If a MIDI control surface “talks features via MIDI. The MIDI association along with all the major music
to and query’s an audio mixer profile, it can send a message back instrument makers are in the process of defining new standard
to the mixer and say “ ok cool. I see what you are and that you can profiles for PIANO, DRAWBAR ORGAN, Orchestral Articulation Profiles,
speak in MIDI 2.0. I will control the mixer levels with my sliders and Drums and so on.
then my knobs will handle the panning”. As another example, you
might connect a PreSonus Faderport control surface with MIDI 2.0 Example 2: Orchestral Articulation and Key-Switching
to a Lighting Controller that speaks MIDI 2.0. The Faderport would Today, every manufacturer uses a different method for “key switching”
automatically connect its sliders to control the lighting dimmers! This in their sample library user interface. It’s a bit chaotic switching from
all greatly improves your workflow because it’s all done automatically. Spitfire Orchestral Libraries to Native Instruments to Heavyocity to
New MIDI 2.0 Profiles for Electronic Drums make a lot of sense. Steinberg to Spectrasonics etc. MIDI 2.0 is developing standards
The engineers involved in design and development of electronic for this key-switching process. Because MIDI 2.0 it has an expanded
drums must be exploring news ways to make our lives better as area - its bigger - 16 bits of velocity of the note on message - and the
MIDI drummers. Connecting a new set of drums or a multi-pad same for the note off message, plus an area for an ATTRIBUTE TYPE
percussion controller to a new software library and having everything and ATTRIBUTE DATA - MIDI 2.0 is defining whether an articulation is
automatically configured would be fantastic. New PROFILES would either Spicatto or Pizzacato. MIDI 2.0 will contain an entire list of ALL
facilitate less friction to the creative process. the possible articulations in the orchestral library. The data won’t be
What do I mean by friction? Here is a great example. I turn on my on various key switches depending on which library and interface
computer and I turn on my electronic drums. I open my DAW, which you use; it will be INSIDE the “Note On”.
is Cubase Pro, and I am ready to start creating new grooves for a
new song or a new film cue. I open a new virtual instrument track What’s the benefit of this?
inside Cubase for drum samples such as Addictive Drums (AD2) or Once all the plugin makers and virtual instrument libraries adopt
EZDrummer 2 by Toon tracks. Sadly, before I can start creating any this - you’ll be able to switch from one instrument to another - and
beats, I need to MANUALLY go into these virtual drum environments keep the musically relevant phrasing and articulations! You can map
and adjust some settings specific to MIDI Note assignment and most between a flute and a string, swap between different sounds - but
critically, manual settings for Hi Hat Controllers to make electronic hi keep the same articulation. You can also switch between different
hats work smoothly. I need to tell the software user interface, “Hey - I LIBRARIES! You would compose one piece of music and then switch
am using this exact model of MIDI drums made by Roland or Yamaha” up your sample libraries to audition new sounds and all your
whatever the case may be. This process immediately brings the articulations will be in place and work as you intended. MIDI 2.0
creative flow to a dead stop. and these new PROFILES will impact the way people create movie
With MIDI 2.0, there will be a 2-way dialog between the computer soundtracks in a way that will be as revolutionary as it was when
and the newer MIDI 2.0 enabled MIDI drum Set. The instruments people were first able to sync their analog tape machines to a MIDI
and software will “talk” and then auto configure so you don’t waste sequencer using MIDI Machine Control in the early 1990s. Here are
time manually adjusting and tweaking your devices. These types of some of my own experiences using with MIDI with live Orchestras.
issues may seem small to you, but when the creative energy is there,
nothing destroys the vibe and inspiration more than these types of Royal Philharmonic At Abbey Road & Vienna Symphony
glitches. So you might say “Hey Verderosa - you already have insanely I have personal experience running MIDI tracks in sync with live
good, built in drum and cymbal samples inside your drum modules! orchestra. I was fortunate in 2019 to record some of my original music
Why are you triggering additional external drum sample libraries? at Abbey Road in London. I hired the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra to
“ That my friends will be covered in a future monthly article in this record in Studio B. I had to record a tremendous amount of music in
column! Let’s go further beyond the two examples stated above. a specific amount of time, so it was too costly for me to re-record the
You can think of PROFILES as being like what the “General MIDI” sample based orchestral percussion parts and grand piano parts that
profile is in MIDI 1.0. For years, General MIDI with MIDI 1.0 used were already created in NY during the demo phase. I also had some
“System Exclusive” messages. MIDI system exclusive messages or amazing virtual string parts from the top orchestral sample libraries
“SYSEX” messages are designed to transmit info about specific that I was able to utilize as a guide during the recording sessions at
functions inside MIDI hardware. SYSEX messages are completely up to Abbey Road. I had to maintain these MIDI parts and run them in sync
each music instrument manufacturer to define. This has led to some while recording 2 separate live recording sessions. First, I recorded
issues with MIDI 1.0. PROFILES will enable MIDI 2.0 to standardize the String section and then in a second session I recorded the
functionality across different instrument makers and software Philharmonic Brass section. I wanted to have complete Mix control
libraries. over the strings with no bleed though from brass players.
With MIDI 2.0 - this is accomplished with REGISTERED
CONTROLLERS. MIDI 2.0 PROFILES allow for a new, updated,
more powerful, “Standardized Way” across all music instrument
manufacturers and virtual instruments. Take the following as an
example of having no set standards for MIDI control messages.

Example 1: MIDI Control of “Emulations”

Yamaha has 3 devices that are B3 organ emulations. Steinberg/
Cubase has a couple of their own Organ emulations (An Emulation is
a Virtual software-based Hammond B3 Organ). They all used different
MIDI cc messages to address and control the 9 draw bars! They all RPO Transport @ Abbey Road_London

70 Modern Drummer October 2022

 These are all creative decisions that need to be made when you
don’t have an unlimited budget for recording music soundtracks for
film and television. There is a certain “dimension of sound” that I can
capture with live orchestral string players and live brass players that
just resonates and hits you emotionally when you hear the final mix.
It is common practice in the film world to do very elaborate
mockups and demos of the music using the very best virtual
orchestral libraries available. These sample libraries have become
so good in recent years it might be hard for some people to hear
the difference but to the discerning ear, to a trained sophisticated
ear, you always want to record live strings and live brass whenever
possible. If you are going for maximum emotional impact and the
highest fidelity, you can do no better than Abbey Road and the Royal
Philharmonic! The engineer at Abbey Road, Andrew Dudman, is an
expert at seamlessly blending and mixing the real string and real
brass players with the pre-recorded piano and percussion. In many
cases, the engineer is also blending the MIDI strings with the real
strings. The result was stunning. I was very lucky to fly to London and
record in the same room that the Beatles recorded in many years ago.
The entire Abbey Road facility is top notch.

Vienna Symphony - Remote Session

Here is another great example of leveraging MIDI technology and
state of the art audio/video teleconferencing technology to facilitate
remote sessions with musicians from all around the world, in real-
time.
In early 2020, I had to record live string players for music to be
aired on the Academy Awards. This was for a project involving
Martin Scorsese, Alejandro Innaritu, Kathryn Bigelow, and James
Cameron. I was not able to travel to Europe, but I was able to
leverage technology that enabled me to “be inside the studio” with
hi resolution audio/video and run the session remotely in real-time.
On this project, I hired the Vienna Symphony and we recorded at the
Synchron Stage in Vienna which is a recording facility that specializes
in recording large orchestras for film. The software I used for hi-
resolution audio playback was called Source Connect and it works
seamlessly with the Chrome Browser. I was talking in real-time with
the conductor, the engineers, and the musicians. It was an incredible
experience and I never had to leave my home studio.

Introduction to Source-Connect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pyNaCIzzWo

October 2022 Modern Drummer 71

 NAMM Show 2023, MIDI 2.0 VIDEO LINKS
Celebrating The 40th Anniversary Of MIDI Tablix - Tabla with Triggers & MIDI
In April 2023, there will be a MIDI Association exhibit at the NAMM Merging Tabla Audio signals with MIDI - Max and Ableton
Museum of Making Music (https://www.museumofmakingmusic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbGzTu7fvM8
org/) in celebration of the 40th anniversary of MIDI. The Museum is a
program division of the NAMM Foundation, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit Jordan Rudess MIDI Innovation Awards Ceremony 2022
organization and receives operational support from NAMM. The MIDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iGc4pdmepI
Association established a MIDI Fund under the auspices of the NAMM
Foundation and is raising money to create a free MIDI curriculum for MIDI Innovation Awards REEL 2021
use by music educators. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt37eeOZu94
To summarize the most compelling features, MIDI 2.0 brings new
levels of expressive control to musicians by going from 128 steps of Finalist - Stretchi presentation at the MIDI Innovation Awards 2021
resolution to over 4 billion, but more importantly, MIDI 2.0 changes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQKyaxuVWsc
MIDI from a monolog to a dialog. Now MIDI 2.0 devices can talk to
each other, and auto configure themselves to work together. MIDI Roland Aerophone AE-20 Performance by Patrick Shiroishi, Hailey
2.0 will make MIDI easier to use and more expressive while keeping Niswanger, and Matt Traum
backwards compatibility with the billions of computers, cellphones, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKgexDNyjA
and musical instruments out there that use MIDI 1.0.
Here is one final thought to leave you with. While on a call with The MIDI Association’s Athan Billias Talks MIDI 2.0
some folks from the MIDI Association, I saw a demo of MIDI controlled https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLHPtJuZBHk
PTZ cameras and was able to use Web MIDI to control a camera
in New Zealand from my computer in NY. The MIDI Association is An Interview with some MIDI Developers from Paris.
working on a MIDI 2.0 camera control Profile and looking to expand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8hx3HPQFOI
MIDI into control of cameras, web streaming and video production.
Clearly there will be more follow up articles as MIDI 2.0 continues its Check out Tony’s Modern Drummer
evolution! profile page at moderndrummer.com

72 Modern Drummer October 2022

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 OUT NOW!

T his month Modern Drummer is going to start spotlighting certain new recordings that
have the drums at the center of their sound. These recordings might be drummer-led,
or just include a high-quality, special, or unique drumming and musical performance from
the drummer and/or musicians in the band. We encourage our readers to listen to the
recordings that inspire them, and keep looking for new musical avenues to explore. You’ll
never know what new music you might find inspiring! Listen and learn.

Steve Smith & Vital Information

The Complete Columbia Sessions
Wounded Bird Records Michael Lauren Trio
Steve Smith Drums Live at Mobydick Records
Mobydick Records
This remastered four CD set gathers the first four Vital Information Michael Lauren drums
releases in one package. The four CD’s Vital Information, Orion,
Global Beat, and Fiafiaga (Celebration) are presented with fantastic This live date with guitarist Vasco Agostinho and bassist Joao
new remastering and extra tracks. The band features Mike Stern, Custodio catches a fantastic and forward thinking guitar trio with a
Dean Brown, modern edge in a
Tim Landers, live broadcast from
Dave Wilczewski, Portugal. Lauren’s
Tom Coster, and jazz drumming
others. This is swings, his rock
essential music playing romps, his
within the history impressionistic
and evolution of soloing paints
jazz rock, and for interesting pictures,
lovers of GREAT and his musicality
drumming! shines.

Steve Gadd, Eddie Gomez, Ronnie Cuber, and WDR

Big Band
Center Stage
Leopard Music
Daru Jones
Steve Gadd Drums
Daru Play the Breaks Live from Layman
Fatbeats Records
The three original members of The Gadd Gang reunite with
Daru Jones drums
support from the WDR Big Band and conductor arranger Michael
Abene to create wonderful and swinging new versions of Gadd
This recording features Daru Jones playing his famous and funky
Gang standards. There aren’t many examples of Steve Gadd
grooves that have been featured on other people’s recordings.
playing in a big
Commentary surrounding these breaks are detailed in the liner notes
band setting, this
written by Daru, while
is a very special
Breakbeat Lou offers
recording. Gadd
a cool introduction
swings, shuffles,
to the procedings.
and grooves us
The grooves and the
into musical and
recording are equally
drumming ecstacy.
amazing, making this
an incredible source
to create beats and
breakbeats for your
own recordings.

74 Modern Drummer October 2022

Vanilla Fudge
Vanilla Zeppelin
Golden Robot Records
Carmine Appice drums

Vanilla Fudge has returned. Mark Stein, Vince Martell, Pete Bremy, and Carmine Appice are back
with a remastered tribute to Led Zeppelin and and the late bassist Tim Bogert. This is the legendary
bassist’s last recording, and he unfortunately only guests on one track. Vanilla Fudge gives these
Zeppelin classics the “Fudge Treatment.” They don’t just walk in the footsteps of Zeppelin they use
these classic tracks as a musical launching point. Stein’s voice sounds as great as ever, Appice’s
drumming reminds us that he is one of the true inventors of hard rock drumming, and Martell’s
guitar playing is at its soulful best. Let one of the originators take you back to 1967 with this soulful,
funky, hard rockin’, good time, music.

Kev Brown x Daru Jones Kristin Berardi

A Daru State of Mind featuring Eddie Sancho The Light & The Dark
Fatbeats Records Earshift Music
Daru Jones drums Jerome Jennings drums

This record differs from the above CD because these are fully Singer Kristen Berardi has
produced beats with instrumental content, as opposed to just created a very nice and
drum beats. Daru takes these beats sideways and twists and turns introspective record. The
the beat, and Kev quintet instrumentation
Brown offers his could create a dense
production skills. sound, but they avoid
Some of the beats that clutter by listening
swirl, some are and complimenting each
glitchy, some rock, other and the music. This
but they all have that is not a vocals with rhythm section performance, the rhythm section
Daru flow. weaves in and around Berardi’s compositions and performances.
Berardi’s compositions tell wonderful stories and Jerome Jennings is
the perfect drummer for Kristen’s music and stories, he stays out of
the way when needed, and he pokes and prods the music when it’s
called for. Trumpeter Ingrid Jensen is a featured soloist throughout,
and she is the quintessential musical “yin” to Berardi’s “yang.”

Jeremy Rose & The Earshift Orchestra featuring Simon

Barker and Chloe Kim
Disruption! The Voice of the Drums
Benjamin Koppel Earshift Music
Anna’s Dollhouse Simon Barker and Chloe Kim drums
Cowbell Music
Peter Erskine drums Saxophonist and composer Jeremy Rose creates a suite of
soundscapes and avant garde improvisational music that features
This new recording is a masterwork that features saxophonist two drummers.
Benjamin Koppel, vocalist Caecilie Norby, pianist Kenny Werner, and Drummers (Barker
bassist Johannes Weidenmuller. The Danish National Youth Ensemble and Kim) weave their
provide a lush and compositional and
full string section. loose drumming
Anna’s Dollhouse approaches around
tells the story of each other in an
Koppel’s fascinating other-worldy salute
aunt (her story is also to the voice and the
told in a novel of the power of the drums.
same name.) Erskine
provides taste, space,
and maturity to this
inspirational music
that is performed on
a grand scale.

October 2022 Modern Drummer 75

 COLLECTOR’S CORNER

Donn Bennett’s Drum Vault:

Kenney Jones’ Rod Stewart and Faces Ludwig “Allsorts” Drum Set
By Donn Bennett

Courtesy Donn Bennett

O n September 2nd, 1972 I was about to attend my first rock con-
cert. I was 12 years old. It was the last day of summer vacation.
The next day would be my first day in the eighth grade. I hated
The lights went down, the crowd roared, I could hear guitars
being plugged in and drums being checked. I could see silhouettes
onstage. Then a spotlight hit the stage and Faces kicked into full
school and I loved rock and roll. As thrilled as I was about attending gear. The band was having even more fun than the crowd. Girls were
a real rock concert, I dreaded the school year that was waiting for me going crazy for the band. Guys, including myself, wished they were
the next day. My excitement for rock and roll easily squelched any in the band. I could relate to what the band was doing and the fun
thoughts of school from my pre-teen mind. they were having doing it. I decided right then I was going to be a
Rod Stewart and Faces headlined the show at the Seattle Center musician. Mid-way through one of the band’s biggest hits “I’m Losing
Coliseum. Once inside, there were lots of new things to captivate the You”, drummer Kenney Jones launched into an extended drum solo.
attention of a fairly sheltered 12 year old boy. People were having The rest of the band left the stage, and all eyes were on Kenney Jones
fun just standing around waiting for the show to start. Everyone was behind his Pink/White/Black striped Ludwig set. Whatever he did,
friendly and the girls were way hotter than any I’d ever seen. People blew my pre-adolescent mind! I didn’t know what he was doing, I just
were doing things right out in the open that you’d get arrested for knew that I wanted to do it. I decided right then that I was going to
outside. It was like a giant party. Rock and roll was even cooler than I be a drummer.
thought. The next day, my first assignment at school was to write an essay
At the time, I was interested in the drums but I hadn’t taken any called “What I did this summer.” Still beaming from my life changing
steps to actually learn how to play them. I think most drummers can experience the night before, I gladly dove into a lengthy description
remember the pivotal moment when they decided they wanted to be of the entire show including an extremely detailed drawing of the
a drummer. For some, it was at a concert, some heard a song on the entire band onstage. I drew every detail down to the microphones
radio or on an older siblings record player, and some saw a band on on the amps and the cords on the guitars. However, I paid particular
TV. My moment was about to happen. attention to Kenney Jones’ drum set. The unique striped finish on his

76 Modern Drummer October 2022

five piece set with one mounted tom and two floor toms made an out to both Kenney Jones and his Faces drum roadie, Colin “Stinky”
indelible mark on my memory. Hilborne. Hopefully they can help answer some of these questions.
When the teacher returned our papers the next day, she wrote “Ex- I’m so grateful this drum set has found it’s way to me, and in case
cellent work! I hope you can work this hard on your math and history you’re wondering, this set will NOT EVER be for sale. I am in the
studies this year”. This was a sideways compliment that told me to business of selling rare drums, but this set has too much personal sig-
focus more of my energy on “more important” subjects. I was unfazed. nificance for me to ever let it go. I hope this set inspires you as much
I knew I was going to be a drummer and that’s all that mattered from as it inspired me.
then on.
I used to (literally) have dreams at night about playing that striped
drum set. That show and what Kenney Jones did with that set, in- Kenney Jones on his Ludwig
Allsorts set. 1972 onstage with
spired a lifelong fascination with drums, drumming, and drummers. It Rod Stewart and Faces
was the “carrot” I followed my entire life.
That was 50 years ago! Today, my friends sometimes joke, “How
come all the cool drums always end up with you?” That’s a good
question. I can’t explain it, but it continues to happen over and over.

Courtesy Donn Bennett

Kenney Jones gave this drum set to one of his closest friends. His
friend, also a professional drummer used and cherished them for
many years. Eventually he retired them in favor of a smaller kit. He felt
guilty about “mothballing” such an extraordinary instrument. When
he started asking around about finding an appropriate new home
for the drums, it wasn’t long before my name came up. We struck
a deal, and the set was on a truck heading to my studio in Seattle.
Once again, one of the coolest drum sets in the world had found it’s
way to me. Like I said, I can’t explain it, I don’t try to explain it, I’m just
extremely grateful it keeps happening.
The set is a 1972 Ludwig with three ply maple/poplar/maple shells
and reinforcement rings. The clear varnished interiors are considered
by many drummers to be the best sounding shells that Ludwig ever
A close up of the
made. Ludwig currently uses the same shell design on their top of the 1972 Ludwig
Courtesy Donn Bennett

line, Ludwig Legacy drums. badge and the

The unique Pink/White/Black/White/Pink horizontal striped finish custom pink and
was inspired by a popular English candy called “Licorice Allsorts.” The black finish.
finish was painted over the original maple outer ply. It shows some
scratches and wear from many years on the road with one of the
rowdiest bands in rock n’ roll, but it is still in amazingly nice condition.
The set includes a 14x24” and a 14x26” bass drum, two identical
10x14” mounted toms with 16x16” and 18x20” floor toms. These
drums are HUGE! The set was always played in a “one up, two down”
Rod Stewart and Faces
configuration with a bass, single rack tom, and two floor toms. The set live in 1972
did not include a snare, but Kenney Jones always played this set with
a 6.5x14 Ludwig Supraphonic 400 snare. All the drums have coated
single ply Remo Ambassador heads.
These drums sound absolutely amazing tuned wide open with no
muffling. I assumed these drums would ring out of control. Nope!
Each drum produces a clear and warm resonant note. I’m excited to
Courtesy Donn Bennett

record with this set. I think they’ll sound best mic’d with just overhead
mics so you hear the complete impact of the whole resonating kit.
In all the photos and videos that I’ve found of this
set in action with Faces, it appears that the 26” bass
drum was always used live. Perhaps Jones opted for a
24” bass when he was recording? Both of the identical
14” toms have clearly been used. Why two identical
toms that were never used at the same time? I can
only assume that one was a back-up. I’ve put feelers The English candy that inspired
Kenney Jones’ Ludwig set

October 2022 Modern Drummer 77

 IN MEMORIAM

Fredy Studer
June 16, 1948-August 22, 2022

F redy Studer was a drumming and musical renaissance man. He

was a musician that played jazz and interpreted 20th Century
Classical music. He was a stalwart of the European jazz scene, a
with other drummers and percussionists such as: Paul Motian, Nana
Vasconcelos, Pierre Favre, Dom Um Romao, David Friedman, Jack
DeJohnette, and Robyn Schulkowsky.
bandleader and a sideman, and a key member of Paiste’s Sound In remembering Fredy, Eric Paiste states,“During a remarkable 45
Development team. years of service in Drummer Service and Sound Development, Fredy
With Paiste, he was instrumental in the development of new made substantial contributions to the Paiste company and brand.
Paiste sounds from the 1970s through the 2000s. As a bandleader In a parallel relationship that endured a lifetime, Paiste considered
he founded the creative group Om. As a sideman he worked with Fredy a top endorser and ambassador. Fredy was a profoundly
true legends, including: Joe Henderson, Miroslav Vitous, Franco valuable member of our team, and we continue to honor him in our
Ambrosetti, and George Gruntz. Studer was a frequent collaborator hearts and minds.”
Ben Huggler

78 Modern Drummer October 2022

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EYE CANDY

Ludwig Super Classic Silver Sparkle Kit

T he kit shown here represents Joe Morello’s abiding sense of individuality. Where most
of his jazz contemporaries in the 1950s and 60s played Gretsch drums, Joe opted to go
with Ludwig- a brand more closely associated with Ringo Starr, Ginger Baker, and other rock
drummers of the day.
In March of 2011, Andy Doerschuk wrote in DRUM! magazine, “By the late 1950s jazz
drummers had transitioned from big band too small combo jazz, and in the process scaled
down their kits with diminutive 18” bass drums. In contrast, Morello outfitted his four-piece
kit with a booming 14X22 bass drum, as well as a 9X13 rack tom and two 16 X16 floor toms
(all finished in a bold silver sparkle,) with a 5X14 Ludwig Black Beauty, Supraphonic, or Super
Sensitive Metal Snare Drum, this picture features a Ludwig Hammered Bronze instead. He
clearly wanted to make a statement.”

This comes from the book Crash: The World’s Greatest Drum Kits, available at
moderndrummer.com

80 Modern Drummer October 2022

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Meet Alex Gonzalez
and Maná at the L.A. Forum
courtesy of Modern Drummer!
Ready to get the rock
star treatment for a
day? Here’s your chance
to hang out with Alex
Gonzalez at sound-check*
and meet Maná before
they play their show at the
Forum in Los Angeles on
October 22, 2022.

See Maná in concert, go

backstage, get a photo
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This Modern Drummer About the Contest

sponsored prize package Modern Drummer and Alex Gonzalez are teaming up to
also includes a LP Alex give one current MD subscriber and guest admission to
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some Vic Firth drumsticks, 22 show at the Forum in Los Angeles, California. Contest
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To enter the contest, visit

www.moderndrummer.com/VIP
*As long as the band has a soundcheck that day, you’ll attend and have the chance to play his kit.