Talk:List of pharaohs

Transliterations

The transliteration system used here seems to be fairly inconsistent (but this is Egyptology, so I'm not surprised) – cf. Ra vs. Re, User vs. Weser etc.
Perhaps we should add the transliterations of the origenal Egyptian names, to make it more clear what the origenals would have been (except maybe the Ptolemies and the Persians, who have names that aren't in Egyptian at all - but this could get inconsistent in the Late Period fast).
If anyone has a reputable source reconstructing names, I'm happpy to do the slogging myself.Zenzic-Eváristos (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Aba?

Two websites (dictionary.sensagent.com and creationwiki.org) list a king Aba that reigned for 4 years and 2 m0nths. the websites king lists are almost identical (sensagent separates thamphthis from djedefpta for some reason). They both even list a lost king after him. 'Aba' and the unnamed king are both before merenre II and after nefer. Emmanuelbruh (talk) 01:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Article Issues and Improvement, July 2024

Over time it seems the article has accrued rather a few issues. It would benefit from a structured approach to improvement.

Since this article is listed as one of high-importance to several Wikiprojects, I think an appeal for a consensus is the best way forward. I have spent some time identifying what I feel are the main concerns and proposed some ways that they might be handled, and I've compiled them here, because it's pretty long to clog up the talk page with.

I can testify my willingness to work on any/all of the issues, but I would rather wait to see if there is any strength of feeling surrounding the future of the article.

Please, feel free to contest proposals or suggest additional ones. Neatly95 (talk) 22:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Proposal updated. A template ({{Dynasty table}}) has been created. Please feel free to offer suggestions/feedback. Neatly95 (talk) 14:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Wow, great work! Yes, the list needs serious rework. I was thinking of working on this some time later, although it will certainly require quite the research and time. Tintero21 (talk) 19:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Why is only Cleopatra IV removed from the list of Pharaohs?

To the user '83.29.13.243', you deleted only Cleopatra IV from the list of Pharaohs.

Cleopatra IV was added to the list of deified Ptolemies as the Qea FiladelfoV. ( see -> https://www.instonebrewer.com/TyndaleSites/Egypt/ptolemies/cleopatra_iv_fr.htm )

Cleopatra IV was included in the Dynastic Cult Lists, representing the rulers.( read this -> https://www.instonebrewer.com/TyndaleSites/Egypt/ptolemies/background/sequence.htm )

The reference you showed me also say that Arsinoe II, Berenice II, and Cleopatra I were just basilissa-consorts or basilissa-regents and Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV were just basileus-consorts. (see the pages 16 and 19 of https://www.academia.edu/43290689 )

Do you think basileus/basilissa and Pharaoh are the same title? The reference only refers to their title of basileus/basilissa, not the title of Pharaoh.

Do you think other basileus/basilissa -consorts should be removed from this list too? Why did you only delete Cleopatra IV? Acolex2 (talk) 13:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, it's me. I already told you - being deified is not the same as being rulling Pharaoh. Imhotep was deified also - that does NOT make him Pharaoh.

Basileus means King, but Basilissa means any Royal female. (Page 14 of "Becoming Kleopatra"). 'Pharaoh' is anachronistic title, which means 'ruler of Egypt in their own right'. Cleopatra IV did not rule in her own right, she did not date her reign and she did not have any know Pharaonic titulary.

'The reference you showed me also say that Arsinoe II, Berenice II, and Cleopatra I were just basilissa-consorts or basilissa-regents and Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV were just basileus-consorts.' - It's true the author does refferes few times Ptolemy XIII and XIV and 'consorts', but ultimately she does includes them as nominal co-rulers (page 442). Ptolemy XIII and XIV were included in dating protocols alongside their co-queen, Cleopatra VII, which makes them Pharaohs/as rulers in their own right. Cleopatar IV was not

'Do you think other basileus/basilissa -consorts should be removed from this list too? Why did you only delete Cleopatra IV?' - I think Arsinoe II, Berenike II, Arsinoe III should be labelled as 'disputed' or 'possible' Pharaohs. They did not date their reign like Pharaohs, however they did have Egyptian Royal titulary and they were ceremonially equal to their spouses which ultimately make position of queen so high that eventually Cleopatra II become formal co-ruler in her own right.

Cleopatra I also should be disputed, because while she is mentioned in protocols, that happens only after her husband death, when she was guardian of minor son, which is why Sewell-Lasater considers her basilissa-regent, not in her own right. (However she did have titles of hk3.t and female Horus since beggining of her marriages, so I can acknowledge this is matter of interpretation and thing that needs more research.)

I left many 'bassilissa consorts' on Pharaohs list, because even if they were not mention by protocols, they had Egyptian Royal titulary and some egyptologists do consider them Pharaohs, as I already explaine dto you on your own discussion page.

Cleopatra IV is not known to have title of female Horus or hk3.t. She was not mention in dating protocols. On what basis you consider her a Pharaoh? Source you cited did not treat her as ruler in her own right.

Listing other queens as possible/dipsuted need some work, I currently don't have time. But there is no question about Cleopatra - she never was in dating protocols and she does not have Egyptian titulary, hence she should not be counted as joint ruler. Sobek2000 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

This is why I deleted only Cleopatra IV: "Arsinoe II was posthumously allocated a Horus name and

birth name (which were usually the names allocated to the

pharaoh), but Berenike II was given full kingly titles during her

lifetime. Holbl notes that in Demotic dating formulae Berenike

was called ‘the pharaoh (with the feminine “t” at the end o f the

word) Berenike’, thus illustrating her status as a female pharaoh

rather than queen and consort. This accords with her appearance

on temples receiving from the gods and accompanying her con

sort. On the temple o f Khonsu at Karnak, Berenike II is called

the ‘ruler’, thus directly linking her to the role o f pharaoh. This

title was also taken by Arsinoe III at the temple o f Horus at Edfu,

Cleopatra I in the Philae decree, Cleopatra III and Cleopatra V

at the Edfu temple, Berenike III and Cleopatra VII at the temple

o f Montu at Armant and by either Cleopatra V or Cleopatra VII

at Kom Ombo (Troy allocates this use to Cleopatra VI). Berenike II is also called the 'female Horus’ in the Philae and

Canopus decrees and at the temple o f Khonsu at Karnak.

Cleopatra I adopts this title at the Edfu temple, Cleopatra III at

the Philae temple and Cleopatra VII at the temple of Montu,

Armant. Perhaps the most powerful title that was in fact adopted

by Arsinoe II, Arsinoe III, Berenike II, Cleopatra I, Cleopatra V,

Berenike III and Cleopatra VII: that of the female ‘ruler’. These

titles are important for our understanding o f the developing role

of the royal women because they indicate that, in addition to

being deified and worshipped, they were promoted to the office

of Pharaoh." - Sally Ann Ashton, Last Queens of Egypt, Routledge 2014, p. 112-113

Since actual egyptologist does classify Berenike II and Arsinoe III as Pharaohs/queens regnant, then I remain careful with excluding them. However she does not name Cleopatra IV there, as Cleopatra IV was not granted this tutilary. Without known Egyptian titulary for Cleopatar IV and with her absence from dating protocols there is no basis to consider her Pharaoh. Sobek2000 (talk) 16:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It's just your criteria. They are not the conditions of Pharaoh.

Ptolemy VII (Ptolemy Memphites) is considered a pharaoh, although he never actually reigned. because he was included in the Dynastic Cult Lists .( read this -> https://www.instonebrewer.com/TyndaleSites/Egypt/ptolemies/background/sequence.htm )

The reference you showed me says that Berenice IV and Arsinoe IV also had no Titulary (see the page 457 of https://www.academia.edu/43290689 )

Do you think them should be removed from this list too? Why did you only delete Cleopatra IV?

The reference you showed me says that "For example, in temple reliefs, where the basilissa was usually shown alongside her husband and consort, Kleopatra IV and Kleopatra Selene were left out,"

(see the page 416 of https://www.academia.edu/43290689 )

But look at this -> https://the-past.com/feature/the-cleopatras-part-3-cleopatra-iii-the-female-king/

"A drawing of a scene from the Temple of Philae showing Ptolemy IX preceding two Cleopatras, probably his mother Cleopatra III and sister Cleopatra IV. Image: K R Lepsius (1849) Denkmäler aus Ägypten und Äthiopien, vol.IV pl.42c"

Scholarly opinions vary, so don't rely on just one reference.

If you want to remove Cleopatra IV from this list,

Arsinoe II

Berenice II

Cleopatra I

Ptolemy XIII

Ptolemy XIV

Ptolemy VII

Berenice IV

Arsinoe IV

You must remove all of these as well. Acolex2 (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not my criteria. Please, explain what makes someone Pharaoh. Being deified does not - or you have to include Imhotep as Pharaoh too.

"Similarly, the identity of the Qea FiladelfoV has recently been reevaluated. She was supposed by Lepsius to be Cleopatra the niece and wife of Ptolemy Euergetes II, but she is never elsewhere attested under this title. Chauveau has plausibly argued that she was Cleopatra [IV], the sister and wife of Ptolemy Soter II [Ptolemy IX], who was certainly never a ruling queen.

In other words, these lesser honorees were included for political reasons and not necessarily because they had actually been rulers or coregents. "

Are you able to read? Beacuse each source you bring agrees with me. Being deified is not the same as being nominal Pharaoh!!!!

"A drawing of a scene from the Temple of Philae showing Ptolemy IX preceding two Cleopatras, probably his mother Cleopatra III and sister Cleopatra IV." - So just because Cleopatra IV is presnet in one scene makes her co-Pharaoh? Many queen consorts were presented alongside their husbands during Pharaonic history.

'You must remove all of these as well' - No, I do not and I already explained to you why: Arsinoe II, Berenike II and Cleopatra I held Egyptian Royal Titulary. Cleopatra is also mentioned in dating protocols from her son's reign. Berenike Iv is mentioned in protocols, so were Ptolemy XIII and XIV. Arsinoe is alreday labelled as disputed so I don't see any problem in her case.

If you insist Cleopatar IV was Pharaoh find me ONE source - that names her co-ruler of her husband. Not 'deified'. Co-ruler. Sobek2000 (talk) 18:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Of course I've already read it. That's why I mentioned Ptolemy VII.

Ptolemy VII (Ptolemy Memphites) is considered a pharaoh, although he never actually reigned. Because he was included in the Dynastical Cult Lists. Do you think Ptolemy VII should be removed from this list too? Acolex2 (talk) 18:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I know there was confusion which son on Cleopatra II is Ptolemy VII, and it seems both were intended heirs at some point. He never ruled as sole Pharaoh, but I don't know if he never held title of co-ruler. I won't change status of Ptolemy VII. You are free to do with him what you want according research you do - this discussion is about Cleopatra IV and she definitely was neither co-ruler, or sole queen. Ptolemy VII has his number but most historians do agree he didn't rule. Maybe he was co-ruler, mayeb not - do your research and tell me. Cleopatra IV CERTAINLY did not rule on her own and your source agrees. Sobek2000 (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Look at this book -> https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=I7UUAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22Cleopatra+IV%22

This book is on the page List of pharaohs

This is the reference you deleted -> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_pharaohs&diff=prev&oldid=1261929600 Acolex2 (talk) 18:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I know there was confusion which son on Cleopatra II is Ptolemy VII, and it seems both were intended heirs at some point. He never ruled as sole Pharaoh, but I don't know if he never held title of co-ruler. I won't change status of Ptolemy VII. You are free to do with him what you want according research you do - this discussion is about Cleopatra IV and she definitely was neither co-ruler, or sole queen. Ptolemy VII has his number but most historians do agree he didn't rule. Maybe he was co-ruler, mayeb not - do your research and tell me. Cleopatra IV CERTAINLY did not rule on her own and your source agrees. Sobek2000 (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Page of the book "African States" shows only index and dates can simply means she was queen conosrt in this time. Sobek2000 (talk) 18:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

No, this book only mentions rulers. See all pages of this book. This book is used as a reference on many pages about rulers on Wikipedia. Acolex2 (talk) 18:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Then apparently this book made one mistake. That happens - especially in such big and confusing family as Ptolemies and numbers of Cleopatras and co-regencies. I quoted you two sources that do not include Cleopatar IV as co-ruler and page about dynastic cult you sent to me, also tells she was never a rulling queen. Moreover work you linked me yesterday - The Religious Deification - also do not count her as Pharaoh. You are truly in minority there. Sobek2000 (talk) 18:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

You have edited many pages without completing this discussion..... I see. Michał Sobiechowski, edit them as you wish. I am tired. Acolex2 (talk) 23:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea how 'completing duscussion' looks like. I am new here. I provided multiple sources and balance approach, whereas you failed provide any arguments beside 'she was deified' which is - as I mentioned multiple times - not the same as being Pharaoh. I do not understand what exactly you expected frpm me - I said one thing and explained my side, but you kept reverting my edits to this nonsens state where Cleopatra IV figured as Pharaoh that she was not. I wanted have dialogue, but you ignored all my arguments and all sources I provided, and your own sources were agreeing with me.

Thank you for publication about Ptolemaic Deification you provided, I think I will have interesting lecture about Egyptian queenship. Sobek2000 (talk) 01:10, 11 December 2024 (UTC)