Commons:Bots/Requests

Shortcut: COM:BRFA

If you want to run a bot on Commons, you must get permission first. To do so, file a request following the instructions below.

Please read Commons:Bots before making a request for bot permission.

I	Create a user account (while logged in to your normal account) and user page for the bot On the bot's userpage, add {{Bot}}, which automatically adds the page to Category:Commons bots. Then add the following information to the bot's userpage (all this is mandatory): Operator: Who the creator/operator is and how they can best be contacted Tasks: Details of the bot's task or tasks Operation: Whether the bot is manually assisted or runs automatically When: When it operates (continuously, intermittently, or at specified intervals) Maximum edit rate: The bot's maximum edit rate (eg edits per minute) Language: The language and/or program that it is running
II	Write your program code. When you put a request at this page, you are expected to be ready for testing. If you are unsure and want to know if your intended bot job will be accepted, please seek community feedback at a suitable venue, e.g. Commons:Village pump.
III	Create your bot request: Replace "YourBotName" with your bot's username in the box below and click the button. Complete the questions on the resulting page and save it. Remember that your bot will be allowed to operate only for those tasks that you have specified in your request. Add your bot request to the list here: Edit the following request list, adding the following text to the top of the appropriate section (replacing "YourBotName" with your bot's name): {{Commons:Bots/Requests/YourBotName}}
IV	Test run Please make a small test run (5–20 edits) to allow other users to review your bot's tasks. (Please do not put your bot in automatic mode until the request is approved!)
V	Waiting for approval. You now need to wait for community approval. A bureaucrat will close the request and will also grant a bot flag, where necessary. Closed requests are moved to Commons:Bots/Archive.

Archives List all Requests Requests by closing date

Requests made on this page are automatically transcluded in Commons:Requests and votes for wider comment.

Requests for permission to run a bot

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Before making a bot request, please read the new version of the Commons:Bots page. Read Commons:Bots#Information on bots and make sure you have added the required details to the bot's page. A good example can be found here.

When complete, pages listed here should be archived to Commons:Bots/Archive.

Any user may comment on the merits of the request to run a bot. Please give reasons, as that makes it easier for the closing bureaucrat. Read Commons:Bots before commenting.

Well, Well, Bot! (talk · contribs)

Operator: Well very well (talk · contributions · Statistics · Recent activity · block log · User rights log · uploads · Global account information) (assign permissions) + Mitte27 (talk · contribs) for manual corrections

Bot's tasks for which permission is being sought: Categorization (+ Wikidata elements creation) of Dynamomania photos, previously uploaded by User:MBHbot after a request from Mitte27 and me. Example edits can be found here (Commons) and here (Wikidata). The result will be monitored by user Mitte27 who will fix any issues if they'd appear.

Automatic or manually assisted: Automatic.

Edit type (e.g. Continuous, daily, one time run): One time run.

Maximum edit rate (e.g. edits per minute): Currently set to 30 edits per minute (+ using maxlag=5), but can be lowered.

Bot flag requested: (Y/N): Y

Programming language(s): Python

Well very well (talk) 20:55, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Good bot. --YarikUkraine (talk) 21:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• English: Well very well has done a lot of work related to the DynamoMania photo upload. Recently, he has been working on compiling a task for the bot, which will help to create about a thousand categories of football matches, where in the end there will be almost 50 thousand photos. The participant has the necessary technical skills, so his bot can be trusted with the bot flag
  Русский: Well very well проделал большую работу, связанную с загрузкой фото Динамомании. В последнее время он работал над составлением задачи для бота, которая поможет создать около тысячи категорий футбольных матчей, где в итоге окажется почти 50 тысяч фото. Участник обладает необходимыми техническими навыками, поэтому его боту можно доверить соответствующий флаг
  . --Mitte27 (talk) 21:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks. Could you give some details how the proper categories are derived? Or is this manual? Thanks Schlurcher (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  We have created together with Mitte27 a list of all albums (with many-to-one mapping to categories), with each entry listing album prefix, category name, date, team1 and team2 short English names, team1 and team2 WD elements, tournament, tournament element, stadium, stadium element, and (for most entries) match score and a Soccerway identifier.
  Categories are derived from that by the following extremely simple algorithm with any issues going to be fixed manually by Mitte27:

  f'''[[Category:{obj.date}]]
  [[Category:Matches of {obj.team1 if obj.team1.startswith('PFC') or obj.team1.startswith('MFC') else 'FC ' + obj.team1}]]
  [[Category:Matches of {obj.team2 if obj.team1.startswith('PFC') or obj.team1.startswith('MFC') else 'FC ' + obj.team2}]]
  [[Category:Association football matches at {obj.stadium}]]
  [[Category:{obj.tournament if 'friendly' in obj.tournament else obj.tournamet + ' matches'}]]
  [[Category:Association football matches in Ukraine in {obj.date.split('-')[0]}]]'''
  

  Well very well (talk) 21:58, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  Here's an example how that file looks like:

  album	category	date	team1	team1WD	team2	team2WD	tournament	tournamentWD	stadium	stadiumWD	score	soccerway
  Матч «Динамо» – «Шахтар» 1-1. 27 жовтня 2024 року	2024-10-27 Dynamo Kyiv vs Shakhtar Donetsk	2024-10-27	Dynamo Kyiv	Q179075	Shakhtar Donetsk	Q172969	2024–25 Ukrainian Premier League	Q126325612	Lobanovsky Dynamo Stadium	Q669347	1-1	4386759

  Well very well (talk) 22:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• Please make edit summaries similar to MediaWiki:Gadget-HotCat.js. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Do you mean only for recategorizing files or also for creating new categories? Well very well (talk) 18:06, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Only for recategorizing. New category could mention task details. EugeneZelenko (talk) 16:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

  Changed the summaries to:

  'Creating categories for Ukrainian association football matches uploaded from Dynamomania'
  f'Moving files to {newCategory.title()} (from {oldCategory.title()})'
  'Creating elements for Ukrainian association football matches uploaded from Dynamomania'

  Well very well (talk) 18:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• How many edits in total are expected? --Krd 16:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

  About ~1000 matches created (so 1000 category creations) and about 30-40 thousand files categorized (and probably then some similar task of categorizing the remaining matches-related files, in total there were about 50 thousand files uploaded from Dynamomania). So in any case it would be at most like ~55000 edits. Well very well (talk) 16:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Gzen92Bot (talk · contribs) 6

Operator: Gzen92 (talk · contributions · Statistics · Recent activity · block log · User rights log · uploads · Global account information) (assign permissions)

Bot's tasks for which permission is being sought: File upload from gallica.bnf.fr

Automatic or manually assisted: Automatic.

Edit type (e.g. Continuous, daily, one time run): Occasionally.

Maximum edit rate (e.g. edits per minute): About 20.

Bot flag requested: (Y/N): Nothing.

Programming language(s): PHP
After Commons:Bots/Requests/Gzen92Bot-4, I continued to upload files from Gallica (Category:Bibliothèque nationale de France), using the parameter "any fayes" = royalty free document (see API), without requesting bot authorization (the infobox is formatted the same).
But there is a problem with categories (see blocking Commons:Village pump#Obtuse bot created categories).
When to create a category? 2, 5, 10 files from the same id?
How to name the category? File name or only the id?
Without being able to answer this question automatically (there are a few million files available at the BnF), I will simply leave them in Category:Images from Gallica and Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images). See 10 files uploaded.
Gzen92 (talk) 17:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Some topical categorization should be determined for every file uploaded, in addition to merely adding a source category.

Before uploading any new file. A cleanup plan for the thousand of categories created before (Commons:Village pump#Obtuse bot created categories) needs to be found and implemented (by the uploader or somebody else).
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 08:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

No problem for this action, if it is the target. Gzen92 (talk) 10:12, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Please outline your cleanup plan for the existing categories.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 11:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is the place to talk about this but it is easy to take the files out of the subcategories of Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images) and put them in Category:Images from Gallica and Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images).

The categories can be deleted easily (I don't have the bot permission to do that).

But I still think it's good to group the files, even if the category name could be improved.

Gzen92 (talk) 22:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

As a bot operator, I'd expect you to fix problems you created before potentially creating more of them. If you can't present a plan for your past uploads, I don't think this request should be approved. Commons is not a place to dump uncategorized files.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 10:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Topical categorisation is not required, see Commons:Guide_to_batch_uploading#Categories. Also, before a "cleanup plan" has to be presented, clear arguments have to be presented as to why those existing categories are a problem. ~TheImaCow (talk) 22:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Which part are you referring to? Uploaders are required to add categories. Merely adding a user category isn't sufficient.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 10:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Section "Putting it into action" -> "every file you upload should have: a tracking/source category, Your files can have: topic categories". A source category + a {{Check categories}} (substituted with the "category needed" category here) is sufficient. ~TheImaCow (talk) 13:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

If we agree that both categories are enough, should we create categories to group files or not? For example this category includes a whole book but the name is long. Gzen92 (talk) 21:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Anyone have an opinion ? With or without category creation ? I would like to continue the job ! Gzen92 (talk) 07:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand what exactly is requested here. Please say again. --Krd 14:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I upload files and create categories as soon as there are two files in the Gallica folder. Which creates a lot of categories: Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images) 65,000 files and 7,200 categories which contain 139,000 files (average 19).

Remarks on Commons:Village pump#Obtuse bot created categories, I could create categories from 10 files. Gzen92 (talk) 07:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I still cannot follow. Can you give an example? Krd 08:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I create a lot of categories with few files (for example Category:Hotel de Roquelaure - Juillet 1906 - photographie - Atget - btv1b10516512m). So a lot of categories in Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images). Two solutions (I don't know): threshold to create a category (10 files?) or no category at all in Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images). Gzen92 (talk) 08:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a bot request is not the right place to find a decision how to proceed. Perhaps this is better discussed as com:Village pump. Once there is a decision, we can perhaps discuss what is the best way to clean up, if required. (If I'm mistaken, please advise.) Krd 08:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure if this is the right forum, but I am wondering how exactly the copyright status of the images is ascertained. For instance, this image has been uploaded as CC0 despite the linked source page containing:

Note(s) : Toute reproduction doit faire l'objet d'une autorisation préalable de(s) auteur(s), de ses (leur) ayants-droits ou de la société qui les représente

Reproduction : Numérisation effectuée par l'auteur d'une sélection de photographies argentiques

which to me sounds as if BNF does not own the right to the image in the first place. Could you elaborate? Felix QW (talk) 13:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, there is a parameter in the API Gallica "public domain". But you are right, in some html pages it is indicated "specific conditions of use", I know how to exclude them for the future. Gzen92 (talk) 16:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

@Krd: After discussions :
Subcategory by year in Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images), for example Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images of 1930).
No category for 2 files because often reverse sides (I will manually browse the categories by year to visually identify the reverse sides and move them to Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images, reverse side).
Category with 3 or more files, also category by year, for example Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images of 1870).
See 24 edit.
Gzen92 (talk) 18:27, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Please comment on the current block of the bot. Krd 05:24, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

After Commons:Bots/Requests/Gzen92Bot-4, I continued to upload files from Gallica (Category:Bibliothèque nationale de France), without requesting bot authorization (the infobox is formatted the same). There are a lot of files (> 100,000). Blocked to think about a classification solution. I will be more vigilant about the classification and will make a request when other cases of mass loading arise. Gzen92 (talk) 10:09, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I can follow. Does that mean this request is withdrawn until further notice? Krd 10:23, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No, this request is valid. There was a discussion about how the bot works. In the future, if I have any doubts about the right way to do this, I will open a request. Please unblock the bot thanks. Gzen92 (talk) 11:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so please say in simple language what this job is exactly about. What exactly will be performed now if this request is approved? --Krd 11:51, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Import file from gallica.bnf.fr (API).

Category with BNF number if 3 files or more.

File/category in categories by date (fewer files at the root).

At the end, visual search for "white" back faces to isolate them.

But before starting the import, categorization of existing files/categories in Category:Files from Gallica needing categories (images) by date as indicated above.

(sorry i use a translator) Gzen92 (talk) 12:56, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say please do the next (small) batch and please advise when done. Perhaps it's easier to see the edits. Krd 13:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Some modifications of files and categories. Gzen92 (talk) 15:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Please continue slowly. I think this can be approve if no objection arises. Krd 16:15, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Categories are the least of the problems with that bot. Much more problematic is that the bot systematically inserts false claims of CC0 on almost everything it uploads. Sometimes, it falsely tags CC0 files that are public domain for some other reason, which is already bad behaviour but at least it's not too damaging. Often, it falsely tags CC0 files that are not free, which is much worse and potentially much more damaging. To evaluate the size of the problem so far, searching only for photos by the professional photographer Daniel Cande, it can be found that the bot uploaded thousands of non-free photos by that photographer. It can be expected that looking at more uploads of the bot, more copyvios of non-free works by other authors might be found. Mass uploads should not be initiated without diligently checking the status of the works. After being notified by another user, the operator of the bot opened a deletion request for 107 copyvios. That's ok, but that adresses less than 1% of the thousands of copyvios uploaded by the bot. IMHO, any new uploads by that bot should be entirely disallowed until the operator meets at least minimal conditions: 1) Gives convincing assurances that the bot will stop faking CC0 dedications on works that are not CC0. 2) Reviews all past uploads. 3) Takes quick action to ensure that all copyvios get deleted as soon as possible. 4) Corrects the status tags of files that may be kept. The complete cleanup of all past uploads should be done before new uploads are allowed. -- Asclepias (talk) 16:40, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Those are reasonable conditions.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 17:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, https://api.bnf.fr/api-gallica-de-recherche, parameter "access", "fayes" = public domain. But yes, sometimes it's not the case. I have already modified the code to use the field "dc.rights" ("restricted use (convention BnF-ADM-xxxx-xxxxxx-xx)") in API returns. I can find all the false positives. I will answer on Commons:Help_desk#What_to_do_with_thousands_of_bot_copyvios_?, Gzen92 (talk) 07:25, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Bonjour Gzen92, Je place mes quelques commentaires et suggestions dans la boîte ci-dessous parce que c'est un peu long. -- Asclepias (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Comments and suggestions in French

Bonjour Gzen92, Tout d'abord, je veux dire que je ne doute pas de votre bonne foi. Mais malheureusement je dois aussi dire qu'à mon avis il ne devrait pas être envigeable d'autoriser un bot à faire des versements massifs sur Commons à moins que son opérateur ait démontré de façon convaincante qu'il possède un bon niveau de maîtrise des conditions fondamentales des droits d'auteur des pays concernés ainsi que des modèles de statut de Commons, leur signification et leur usage. En ce qui concerne des versements depuis les fonds de Gallica, cela implique donc en particulier la bonne maîtrise des conditions des droits d'auteur de Commons:Droit d'auteur par territoire/France et de Commons:Droit d'auteur par territoire/États-Unis. Un certain nombre d'éléments plus spécifiques sont particulièrement préoccupants. 1. D'autres utilisateurs ont déjà souligné le problème que le bot utilise abusivement le modèle CC0, alors qu'en réalité les fichiers qu'il verse sur Commons ne sont pas sous CC0. Or, vous ne semblez pas avoir donné d'indication claire que vous ayez vraiment saisi la nature de ce problème. Seul le propriétaire des droits d'auteur (donc normalement l'auteur lui-même ou son ayant droit) peut émettre une déclaration CC0, par laquelle il déclare qu'il transfère au domaine public son oeuvre qui n'était pas déjà dans le domaine public. Le bot (ni personne d'autre d'ailleurs) ne peut pas prendre l'initiative d'émettre une déclaration CC0. Étant donné d'une part que le texte de la déclaration CC0 n'existe que depuis 2009 et d'autre part que les items versés par le bot depuis Gallica ont une origine beaucoup plus ancienne, il est évident qu'aucun (ou sinon presque aucun) de ces items n'a fait l'objet d'une déclaration CC0 émise par son auteur ou par un ayant droit à une époque où l'item était sous droits d'auteur. Les pages de description des fichiers versés par le bot doivent être corrigées en conséquence, afin de remplacer la fausse déclaration CC0 par les modèles de statut appropriés dans chaque cas. Dans une grande proportion des cas, lorsque l'item est dans le domaine public en France parce que les droits d'auteur y sont expirés, un modèle approprié pourra être par exemple PD-old-auto ou une autre variante de PD-old-70. Il faut ajouter aussi un modèle décrivant le statut de l'item aux États-Unis. Le tout implique de passer en revue tous les versements qu'a faits le bot et, selon le cas, de corriger les pages de description des fichiers libres et de faire supprimer les fichiers non libres. 2. Vous avez constaté qu'il est impossible de s'appuyer inconditionnellement sur les paramètres techniques ni même sur les notices visibles de Gallica. Les notices sont souvent inadéquates ou sans signification utile. Par exemple, les notices disant «consultable en ligne» n'informent pas du statut des droits d'auteur. Les utilisateurs de Commons ont souvent constaté que des items apparemment notés comme libres sur Gallica étaient en réalité non libres. Et à l'inverse que des items notés comme non libres étaient en réalité libres. Il est nécessaire d'évaluer le statut véritable de chaque fonds et même parfois de chaque item dans certains fonds. Dans le doute, le bot devrait probablement s'abstenir de verser les items. Vous pouvez aussi demander des avis sur des cas spécifiques à Commons:Village pump/Copyright. 3. Le bot a reçu depuis un an plusieurs notifications relatives à des items inclus dans des recueils de coupures de journaux que le bot a versés. Toutefois, bien que ces quelques items notifiés ont été supprimés, vous ne semblez pas avoir réagi pour faire le ménage dans ces recueils. Ces recueils sont particulièrement problématiques puisqu'ils groupent généralement des oeuvres de nombreux auteurs différents et puisque les droits d'auteur sur les items d'un recueil peuvent expirer à des dates différentes, selon les années de décès de leurs auteurs respectifs. Par exemple, une grande part des divers items (textes, illustrations ou photos) inclus dans des recueils datant des années 1950 ou même des années 1940 sont vraisemblablement encore sous droits d'auteur en France puisqu'il est peu probable que tous leurs auteurs soient morts il y a plus de 70 ans, soit avant 1954. Si en plus on souhaite que les oeuvres soient libres aux États-Unis, il faut généralement que les auteurs soient morts avant 1937 ou que l'auteur ait publié l'oeuvre avant 1929. Si vous souhaitez verser sur Commons des fichiers provenant de tels recueils d'items hétéroclites, il est nécessaire de prendre le temps d'examiner les droits d'auteur de chaque item et de séparer les items libres des items non libres. Cela est fastidieux. Il ne serait pas acceptable de reporter ce fardeau sur les autres utilisateurs de Commons. Vous préférerez peut-être plus simplement éviter de verser les items de tels recueils. Mais, d'une façon ou de l'autre, il faut quand même faire le ménage dans les recueils déjà versés par le bot. -- Asclepias (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC) Bonjour, j'accepte tes remarques tout à fait pertinentes. Tu en sais plus que moi sur le sujet des droits d'auteur et cela est effectivement plus compliqué qu'il n'y paraissait de prime abord. Je vais me pencher sur la correction des fichiers déjà chargés afin de pouvoir en tirer une conclusion pour la suite : automatisable ou pas. Cordialement, Gzen92 (talk) 15:49, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

In short: IMO, a bot should not be authorized to mass upload files unless its operator demonstrates sufficient knowledge of copyright notions and rules and diligence to apply them, especially when the items are from a repository such as Gallica with a complex mixture of free and non-free items. -- Asclepias (talk) 20:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I totally agree with what others have already said about the licensing issues with the bots uploads. It looks like the bot has been unblocked while still wrongly uploading files as Creative Commons CC0 1.0 when it shouldn't be. Or at least the bot should be adding the appropriate license for the country of origin along with Creative Commons license. Just because the Bibliothèque nationale de France released the images under a Creative Commons CC0 1.0 license on their end doesn't mean the images aren't or wouldn't still be copyrighted in the country of origin and/or shouldn't have the appropriate license for said country. It's not the job of other users to sift through thousands of images after they are uploaded to make sure the licenses are correct. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The bot has not uploaded anything since the unblocking. Gzen92 (talk) 13:56, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree that a bot owner should take care of any mess created by their bot. Krd 10:29, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I can do it, I have all the logs of the files created and the data from the Gallica API to make the necessary adjustments. At the moment, I don't know how to solve the problem, since the rights are complex to manage (Gallica's rights are not precise enough). Gzen92 (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Please consider to provide details somewhere, perhaps in the bot's user space. Krd 14:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gzen92: For those files with insufficient licensing info in the Gallica API, please check the Gallica website and either document the surricient licensing info or request deletion.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 18:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

For information, deleting requested files Commons:Deletion requests/restricted use (convention BnF-ADM-xxxx-xxxxxx-xx) - files. I will make requests for the categories too, apparently it will be less problematic. Gzen92 (talk) 06:55, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

There are authors which are in the public domain in this DR. Why adding them? Yann (talk) 08:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

All these files are indicated "restricted use (convention BnF-ADM-xxxx-xxxxxx-xx)" by the BnF. I did this automatically. But yes it does work for other people, I thank them. For after, the 2793 categories, I will look at the content one by one. It is often plays, shows or films. It will be easier to know if it is recent or not. Gzen92 (talk) 09:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, but this is a real bad way to create a DR. With a mix of PD and non-PD files, deletion can't be automated. The right way is to create a DR by author. This will be also make undeletion easier when the time comes. Yann (talk) 09:27, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

You are right, i will do better for the categories. Gzen92 (talk) 09:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

 Info Commons:Deletion requests/restricted use (convention BnF-ADM-xxxx-xxxxxx-xx) - files almost finished (thanks everyone).

 Info Commons:Deletion requests/restricted use (convention BnF-ADM-xxxx-xxxxxx-xx) - categories in progress.

Gzen92 (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gzen92: Cela fait beaucoup de pages de deletions avec peu de fichiers dans chacune. Pourquoi ne pas faire plutôt une demande de suppression par auteur ? Cordialement, Yann (talk) 18:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not following what is happening. The bot has now performed thousands of edits to list files and categories for deletion. Are we now discussing the cleanup task here, or the new task. --Schlurcher (talk) 21:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I was indicating for information the progress to repair my errors. After I would know better how to load the right files. But you are right, the deletion does not concern this request. Gzen92 (talk) 10:24, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

GogologoBot (talk · contribs)

Operator: MFossati (WMF) (talk · contributions · Statistics · Recent activity · block log · User rights log · uploads · Global account information) (assign permissions)

Bot's tasks for which permission is being sought: add the following structured data statement and qualifier to the file page of a new upload that is detected as a logo by this tool.

• statement: instance of (P31) logo (Q1886349)
• qualifier: determination method or standard (P459) machine learning (Q2539)

Automatic or manually assisted: automatic, supervised

Edit type (e.g. Continuous, daily, one time run): continuous

Maximum edit rate (e.g. edits per minute): it depends on the amount of image uploads and on the amount of images detected as a logo. Hard to tell for now 2 edits per minute. Please note that this is an anecdotal estimate based on test edits. See also #c-MFossati_(WMF)-20241015104800-Krd-20241011094700

Bot flag requested: (Y/N): Y

Programming language(s): Python, Pywikibot

Source code: https://gitlab.wikimedia.org/toolforge-repos/gogologo

MFossati (WMF) (talk) 12:19, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• I think it'll much better application for bot it it could detect non-trivial logos or logos already deleted. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
• Wouldn't it be better to add them with a separate property? While I'm in favor of adding more such ways to identify images, I don't think it mixes well with other statements. This was attempted and finally discarded with "depicts" statement a while back. Please make sure these statements can also be searched with Special:Search. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:53, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

  Hey Enhancing999, thanks for your comment. Could you please provide any specific pointers to the previous attempt you mentioned? MFossati (WMF) (talk) 11:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  here Enhancing999 (talk) 11:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Is this bot going to be used as "act once on new uploads", "act once on all existing files", "potentially act more than once on the same file", or what? Unless it only acts exactly once on any given file, what is to prevent it getting into an edit war if its edit is reverted or otherwise changed? - Jmabel ! talk 18:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

  Hi Jmabel, thanks for your question. The bot is expected to act once on new uploads. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 11:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Good. Is there any chance that the bot could also look at the wikitext for {{Own work}} and add a maintenance category (call it Category:Own work logo to checked) if it appears to be a logo and is claimed as "own work"? We see that combination a lot, and it is almost never true. And possibly something similar for a logo + any CC license, because that's usually false as well: we very rarely get a license for any logo that is above the threshold of originality. - Jmabel ! talk 15:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

    I agree that the ability to search for logos plus own work and/or CC licenses would make a lot of sense. I think this is something we can do by querying structured data. For instance, we can already run a query like this to look for own work files with CC BY-SA 4.0. As soon as the proposed logo statements get added, we can then insert a wdt:P31 wd:Q1886349 constraint in the query. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 09:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

•  Comment As requested by the rules, we've test-run the bot on 100 uploads randomly sampled from uploads made between Aug 21 and today, and here are the results:
  • 4 medias were deleted beforehand, so no edit
  • 1 media was skipped (maximum retries attempted due to maxlag without success), so no edit
  • 95 medias were successfully edited

It seems that it successfully worked, but we'll wait for community review. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 15:34, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

It appears each file is edited twice. Is that for technical reason, or can the edits be combined in any way? Krd 17:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Great point, Krd! It made me realize that the current code first adds the claim, then adds the qualifier, thus producing two edits. I've just tried that we can do the other way around. So - yes - we can indeed combine them into a single edit. I've updated the code accordingly. Thanks a lot, this is really helpful. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 14:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you use another property than P31 as suggested above? I think we should avoid a re-run of c-a t where WMF mostly ignored community input.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 17:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Krd and @Enhancing999, thanks for your feedback and sorry for the late reply, for some reason your replies did not appear in my notifications.

While we wait for @MFossati (WMF) to be back in office for answering the first question, we are open to suggestion as to which property to use. @Enhancing999 do you already have one in mind? Sannita (WMF) (talk) 16:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

You can create one ad hoc.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 17:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Enhancing999 Sorry for the long answer, but I felt the need to clarify some things about the request.

We need to start somewhere to see if the experiment is of some value to the moderators. This is an experiment within the first quarter OKR work for FY24/25 (WE2.3.1). We don't think a new property would work, especially because the property proposal request would likely be considered too specific in scope to be accepted by the Wikidata community, not without reasons.

We can quickly and easily use an existing property, and see if it’s valuable. If not, we will rollback as quickly and easily. The property instance of (P31) seems like the best fit, because we think it’s specific and meaningful. More importantly, the property is indexed, thus enabling search queries both in Special:Search and in Special:MediaSearch. Furthermore, qualifiers are also indexed, so it will be possible for moderators to find media classified as a logo by this bot. You can either use a search query (example with Special:Search, example with Special:MediaSearch) or a SPARQL one to achieve it.

If detecting and tagging incoming logos does not help with easier logo moderation, then our plan is to rollback our own edits at the end of the experiment. If it does help, then we’re planning to investigate other ways to store and query such data, as we are considering other experiments in the near future as suggested by the community. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 15:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikidata easily creates properties that are just meant to be used for Commons. This shouldn't take much time and compared to working speed of WMF (It's seven weeks since you asked for input), this shouldn't be an issue. Nothing prevents you for indexing this property as well.

If you think a separate property wont work, it means that ultimately this wouldn't work using instance of (P31) either. I think such implementations need more attention than once every month.

Given the massive community backlash WMF got from an ill-prepared, hastily implement, not community feedback driven, likely costly previous experiment mixing machine contribution with our highly valued volunteer contributors, I think it's good to take good care this time, especially as a simple way was suggested already seven weeks ago.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 15:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@Enhancing999: unless there are a lot of false positives (and I don't think there are), the tagging of these as instance of (P31) : logo (Q1886349) seems at worst harmless. What would be the advantage of a distinct property? - Jmabel ! talk 04:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

There are likely few false positive in the first test set as it's still followed, but last time, it became problematic when person at WMF developing it moved on to something else.

Based on past experience, I guess you know what happens afterwards: you will have to wait 7 weeks for an acknowledgment, then you will be told to ask for a change in the next wishlist, and, even if everybody agrees with it, you will have to wait for the next annual plan to have it scheduled. Possibly somebody will then throw it out entirely, because they don't know how to fix it.

In any case, the idea is to classify also images where there is a lower confidence in the automatism so review is necessary.

Using two different properties allows users to easily switch between volunteer assessment and machine assessment, focus on volunteer assessment while excluding machine assessment if they happen to agree.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 11:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Is a coat of arms or a military unit insignia or a sports uniform a logo per the definition a "logo"? --Krd 07:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Krd: we're targeting images similar to Category:Logos, thus making a distinction between other classes such as Category:Coats_of_arms or Category:Sports_kit_templates. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 13:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

In my personal opinion there are too many false positives. Krd 13:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Special:Permalink/923690458 has a gallery of images edited by the bot. Personally, I don't think false positives are an issue as such, at least when they are clearly distinguished from manual edits (see separate property above).
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 14:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that most of them are some kind of symbols or graphics, but I'd guess a third of them would not be put under Category:Logos, so "instance of logo" doesn't make much sense then. Am I mistaken? Krd 14:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

It really depends what the logo people want to do with it. Today it's "logos", but it could be just any image type or topic. The confidence level of the classification can also evolve or be changed.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 14:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Come to think of it, maybe the statement with the new property should be qualified with the confidence level (for the classification of the image) and the program version being used (if not available, the current date).
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 09:08, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. Krd 11:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You read my mind: this is definitely something I wanted to propose. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 13:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I've just realized that the bot has made accidental edits that weren't meant to be there, sorry for that! I've manually reverted them. Please refer to the test edits. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 13:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Similar to Special:Permalink/923690458 can you do a gallery that shows all images that you consider valid test cases (ideally include the confidence level for the classification as a legend).
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 09:21, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

The (determination method or standard (P459), machine learning (Q2539)) qualifier distinguishes the bot's edits from manual ones. The queries mentioned here retrieve the bot's ones. You can compare these two queries: with qualifier (bot's edits) VS no qualifier (non-bot's edits). As a side note, nothing prevent us from trivially looking at the bot's contributions, too. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 13:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You can't distinguish them any more when someone thinks they are correct and also adds a P31. Or would they have to remove the qualifiers? And no, looking at individual files and/or edits is definitely not a solution. Please make sure the results can be view by querying both with search and on SDC portal (hopefully eventually open).
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 09:16, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

We could also create a Wikidata item for this bot and use it as the qualifier value, instead of machine learning (Q2539). MFossati (WMF) (talk) 14:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

It's better to use a separate property and qualify that with the program version being used. A year or two later, one will otherwise have a hard time which version of the bot considered what by which threshold. I suggest we create to properties:

• "Commons machine image type"
• "Commons machine image subject"

The second for later uses, if you wan't to try to determine a logo topic.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 09:20, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

• I'd like to highlight the main goal of this experimental bot, namely to help moderators find potentially problematic media. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 14:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  What is the commitment of WMF to maintain this going forward? How much time will you spend maintaining it in the next months each week? Or will it be discontinued after a month?
   ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 09:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  We are committed to maintaining this bot for as long as it needs to be. As already mentioned, this is one of our priorities for the year, and definitely won’t be dropped after one month. On the other hand - after careful consideration with the team - we won’t be pursuing the path of creating new Wikidata properties, nor adding the confidence score as structured data, as part of this work of identifying and providing a way for easier moderation of logos.

  While we agree that probabilistic statements supported by confidence scores are a very relevant topic, to the best of our knowledge no available Wikidata property can express so yet, and we see the need for a cross-community broad discussion that is outside of this experiment’s scope. If no consensus is reached on this bot request, the alternative is that we periodically release lists of potential logos to be considered (this time with confidence score), like we recently did. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 13:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  Creating appropriate properties is a fairly straightforward process. As you seem to have some issues with having these created for that data, I think the dataset approach is preferable.

  It also wont leave us with data the community needs to clean up next year, once the experiment has ended, as last time.
   ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 12:20, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  Do we have moderators who use the output of the bot for anything? I think it hasn't been outlined above, so I'm still trying without offense to understand who is in need of that, or if it may be a solution looking for a problem. Krd 13:36, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

  Hi @Krd, sorry for the late reply, but notifications aren't working on this page for some reason. As of now, as far as we know no one is using the output of the bot, mostly because it has not been approved yet and we are waiting on approval to fully resume our work. But the reactions on the admins' noticeboard to our dataset about potential logos seems to show that our work is effectively useful to identify potentially problematic logos, and can let admins and moderators focus on a narrower set of images, instead of relying on reports on last uploads. Plus, as we already stated, this proposal comes from several discussions and user interviews we had in the past months with the community where the need for machine detection tools was raised, so it is a solution to a problem that the community raised. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 13:54, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think users would prefer categories, but dataset seem to work too. Given the problems with getting the statements right and the closed nature of SDC statements, I think it's preferable to pursue the two other ways (dataset, categories).
   ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 16:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

• Looks like a great way to reduce mod/admin maintenance workload and reduce the number of copyvios on WMC. Please extend it or create similar bots to also detect other copyvios as proposed here or similar. Thanks for developing it, it seems very useful! --Prototyperspective (talk) 11:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  Hi @Prototyperspective, thanks for your positive feedback and suggestions (and also sorry for the late reply, but notifications aren't working properly on this page). We do think this work is valuable and we heard good feedback. Before engaging in new bot requests, though, we think it would be better to close the current request with enough consensus to go on. We are going to do another experiment for automated detection in the next months as part of our planned work, but we also don't want to operate without or against community consensus. For now, as the current bot request has not been approved, you can access logos identified by the logo detection through exported datasets. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 13:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@MFossati (WMF): You didn't specify the edit rate in the request. What do you expect the daily edit count to be, and how many edits will be required to classify existing files? Does it make sense to start with one edit per minute for an extended test run? --Krd 09:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

What do you expect the daily edit count to be

The test edits indicate 1 edit every 33 seconds on average, with an estimated daily count of 2,600 circa.

how many edits will be required to classify existing files

Please note that the currently requested task only accounts for new uploads. We may consider scaling the bot up to existing files in a subsequent request, if that's useful for the community (broader discussion needed). However, we can't compute the total amount of edits beforehand, because we'll have to run (or dry-run at least) the classifier over existing files first.

Does it make sense to start with one edit per minute for an extended test run?

I think it would be reasonable to stick to the average edit rate to do so, i.e., 2 edits per minute. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 10:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Please put it live as suggested, as extended test run. Krd 10:56, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done The bot is running and will edit 3,833 recent uploads, detected as logos between Aug 21 and today. See also the initial test. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 15:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do not manually edit with the bot account. --Krd 07:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I addressed a user request and also noticed incidental duplicate statements, so I took care of them. The affected pages were edited through pywikibot code, so no manual edits happened. Not sure why those edits got the manual revert tag, though. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 09:49, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Special:Diff/945223918 is a manual edit, isn't it? Krd 10:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

That wasn't intended: I forgot to logout from the bot account and login to my user one before signing that edit. I've fixed the signature one minute later, see Special:Diff/945224965. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 13:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

• The extended run of the bot has finished, ~3,800 images have been edited and identified as a logo, you can take a look at the bot's contributions to evaluate them. What do you think of the results? Do you think the bot could be now allowed to run? Sannita (WMF) (talk) 16:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • First thought is that all of the "BSicon" stuff is wrong, none of those are logos. - Jmabel ! talk 19:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Picking 10 others at random:
    1. File:MEFA Logo.svg already appropriately categorized as a logo, clearly below TOO.
    2. File:Bridger Aerospace logo.svg Like the previous one. I did add Category:Logos of companies of the United States because uploader hadn't thought to say what country.
    3. File:Club América de Palpa.png might be problematic; claimed as "own work" (which might be true for the particular PNG); roughly in the neighborhood of TOO, I don't know rules for Peru, someone might want to take a look at this. Needs categories, in any case.
    4. File:Avelonia Logo 2024.png similar case to the last, although in this case I can't even quickly tell what country.
    5. File:2gotravellogo.png needs categories, from Philippines, appears to be below TOO.
    6. File:CTree RootNet Bubble blue rev 05 interim 600dpi.png. No idea what this is, needs cats, might be a logo or not, doesn't say what country, below TOO almost anywhere.
    7. File:BR Verkehr Variante.svg appropriately categorized, clearly below TOO, unproblematic.
    8. File:Auliq Records wordmark.png clearly below TOO, heavily but poorly categorized, already nominated for deletion as out of scope (on which I have no opinion).
    9. File:Filebrowser - banner.svg already correctly identified as a free software logo, the claimed license is indeed granted at specified source (but might be below TOO anyway).
    10. File:ALoSeguro.svg not clearly a logo (just text form of a slogan) though categorized as such, clearly below TOO, appropriately categorized.
  • So the usefulness of this is supposed to be …? - Jmabel ! talk 20:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

    Thanks for your proactive feedback! I think it really follows the direction of our long-term goal, namely to help moderators find problematic media.

    • Re: BSicon - this was already raised in a previous request and fixed;
    • re: random examples - you can find more information along the lines of your comments in the reports we published. For instance, categories and own work are there. See [1], [2], and [3].

    MFossati (WMF) (talk) 14:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

    • @MFossati (WMF): I'm an admin, and based on my sample above, I don't see how this is any more help in finding problematic media than looking at any random collection of newly uploaded files. Can you clarify how this is supposed to be more useful in finding problematic files than just a random selection of recent uploads? - Jmabel ! talk 18:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

      @Jmabel Thanks for your feedback. Marco is currently out of office, so I'll try to take a stab at it: we're trying to narrow down the number of potentially problematic files, by highlighting only the potential logos among the quite high number of uploads that everyday are made on Commons.

      We received already some positive feedback about our work in the last six months, and according to our findings our experimental tool can detect ~47% more files that are not correctly categorized as logos or are not correctly pointed out as such. This does not substitute the need for a human eye to evaluate them, but at least should be enough to help said human eye to find what they need to find, without resorting to check a "random collection of newly uploaded files". This is also what we're trying to do with our datasets published on the Admins' noticeboard.

      Anyway, if this bot request is just not enough useful, we'll stick to publishing datasets for you admins to consider. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

      • Is there any "control" for this experiment? E.g. any pre-bot baseline on some task or tasks that we can measure against to see whether the bot is actually helping anything happen any better than before? - Jmabel ! talk 21:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

        @MFossati (WMF):  ? --Krd 05:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

        Given a monthly dataset such as November 2024, we compute the gain ${\mathcal {G}}$ as follows: ${\frac {{\mathcal {I}}-({\mathcal {D}}+{\mathcal {T}}+{\mathcal {C}})}{\mathcal {I}}}\times 100$, where ${\mathcal {I}}$ is the total amount of input images detected as a logo, ${\mathcal {D}}$ is the amount of input images that were deleted, ${\mathcal {T}}$ is the amount of input images with Template:PD-textlogo, and ${\mathcal {C}}$ is the amount of input images with at least one category that has an occurrence of logo. We consider ${\mathcal {D}}+{\mathcal {T}}+{\mathcal {C}}$ to be the human curation baseline that matches uploads detected as a logo. ${\mathcal {G}}$ represents the percentage of potential logos that hasn't undergone human curation. For instance, November 2024 has ${\mathcal {G}}=48.6\%$. MFossati (WMF) (talk) 15:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Please summarize. Have all objections been resolved? What is the conclusion? --Krd 06:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)