Commons:Deletion requests/US holocaust memorial museum images

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

US holocaust memorial museum images

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http://www.ushmm.org/ does not own the copyright so they can't release it to the public domain. Images from Germany/Poland/Romania/Yugoslavia in the 1940's are not PD-old. And photographs from Nazi deathcamps (prior to liberation) are not likely to be US-Gov. /Lokal_Profil 01:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure there are many more images in the same situation, searching for ushmm gives a lot of hits. I've purposfully excluded military trial photos since they are likely to be US-Gov. /Lokal_Profil 01:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
According to Image:Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler.jpg (which isn't included in this list), of which Image:Benito Mussolini in Yugoslavia crop.JPG, Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop.JPG and Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop2.JPG are derivatives:
the author of the photograph, Muzej Revolucije Narodnosti Jugoslavije, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, donated the image to USHMM who then released that image into the public domain.
Shouldn't someone rather contact the USHMM and verify whether or not they own the copyright, instead of deleting these images in short order? Anrie 08:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Muzej Revolucije Narodnosti Jugoslavije, translates into something like "Jugoslav Revolutionary National Museum", not likely that they are the copyright owners either. More likely is that these images have been liberated, which does not mean that they now own copyright. /Lokal_Profil 12:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the case may be. This merely means that the images are somewhat incorrectly tagged, if this is true about USHMM. However, this still doesn't fully give valid reason for deletion, as many other resources still give credit to USHMM with full compliance. Whether or not this is proven is beyond the point. The fact of the matter is that no one has proven otherwise henceforth that USHMM does not own the copyright, therefore, this is highly debatable. If anything, the images should be kept until proper tagging is given, but deletion is something I for one am highly against. - Zarbon 13:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With every other image on commons it's delete until proven free not keep until proven unfree. Not being able to prove the license is normally considered a valid reason for deletion. /Lokal_Profil 18:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you would like to add arguments then that would be very appreciated since unmotivated votes don't really make a difference. /Lokal_Profil 22:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stealing images because no-one would complain is not the way we do it on Commons. I've now added Romania to the list, thanks. /Lokal_Profil 11:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did I include any Nurmberg photos? Thought I'd excluded them since they were likely to be US-military photos. /Lokal_Profil 11:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Zarbon. --Russianname 12:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep because Muzej revolucije naroda i narodnosti Jugoslavije (founded by the decision of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia 1959-04-19) is a common good of the nations and nationalities of from Yugoslavia. I made a Template:PD-Yugoslavia which is based on the Agreement on succession issues on and valid for all official documents of any kind from 1918-12-01 to 1991-06-30 according to one version (and to 1992-04-28 according to another version - that is the day of establishment of joint federal state of the Republic of Montenegro and the Republic of Serbia called Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). The SFRY to which this museum belonged broke apart to 6 republics and 2 autonomous provinces (autonomous provinces are attached to Serbia, 1 under control from Belgrade, 1 under international supervision). This museum belongs to all of the constituent and constitutional members of SFRY. In all of those constituent and constitutional members (republics and autonomous provinces) you have very similar laws on copyright - all of them place official documents in PD. Furthermore one must ask oneself of the time and the place where the photograph were taken, who took it and much much more. As for I know nazi-fascist and other totalitarian symbols are free from copyright. Nobody claims them. If the photographer were of German or Italian citizenship we might have a problem but I am sure that neither of those countries place those images under copyright. If the photographer were of Yugoslavian citizenship [(Yugoslav is a former nation/nationality - there are still debates over the issue and Yugoslavian is a citizenship/statehood membership (servitude))], as I were saying - then it is a part of that interval of time in which Yugoslavia (under many of its name) confiscated property of collaborators but even of citizens that had nothing to do with the war (rich peasants, farm owners), ordinary citizens of German and Italian nationalities. Then it is up to them to come to court and claim their property (now available in every successor state) - it is not up to Wikipedia to decide that. We might talk and talk but those photographs are PD-Yugoslavia, you should look it up - there is a link in the tag. So if any question arise - drop me a line. -- Rainman 00:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC) Agreement on succession issues was signed on 29th of June 2001, and from that day was available for ratification. All of the successor States ratified the Agreement. The Agreement came to power with the last ratification, that being the ratification, by a law in the Croatian Parliament. This happened on 2004-03-03 and was published in the Official Gazette of the Republic of Croatia on 2004-03-17 thus came to power according to Article 5 of the Croatian law eight days after on 2004-03-25. -- Rainman 01:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep If USHMM claims this is PD - I would not question it, just verify that their website says so. This seems to me an attempt to be more holly than a pope. If there are any complains in the future we can point to USHMM website. Maybe use verification approach used for flicker images, where someone other than uploader inserts a tag that on a certain day image was listed on USHMM as public domain. I think a lot of those images are badly labeled. They should not use PD-Old or PD-USGov tags, but the best license I can think of is "PD-because|released to the public domain by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum". Maybe we should have a special license tag PD-USHMM.--Jarekt 19:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images from Muzej revolucije naroda i narodnosti Jugoslavije should use the license tag Template:PD-Yugoslavia because this was a federal institution in question -- Rainman 02:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - if these are declared by a reputable organization to be in the public domain, I think we are on firm ground. As for "stealing" images "because nobody would complain," I think that's turning the matter on its head. These photographs are important historical records of actual crimes that were committed. I think the burden should be to show why they should not be published, rather than the other way around. --207.45.240.17 20:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Those pictures are historically invaluable and I doubt that there are valid copyright claims. I can't see a reason to question the respective sources and consents. --Smith909 05:32, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There is no proof provided to the claim that the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum "does not own the copyright so they can't release it to the public domain." The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum clearly asserts on its webpage that it holds rights to all copyrightable material therein. That assertion should be accepted unless verifiable proof can be provided to the contrary. An unsubstantiated claim is proof of nothing. 71.175.28.121 19:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • An unsubstantiated claim is proof of nothing. and the same goes for their proof of PD. /Lokal_Profil 00:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • You are flat out wrong. In accordance with copyright law, the burden of proof is on you to establish their copyright claim is invalid. You have made a claim and have presented utterly no proof. As a matter of law, their claim is valid; yours is not. Your statements here are entirely specious and without legal merit.71.175.28.121 18:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep of course it's PD-old. On what base you say that US Holocaust Memorial Museum doesn't have the rights to publish it ? Lothar25 23:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Firstly it's absolutly not PD-old since it hasen't even been 70 years since the iamges were taken. USHMM might have the right to publish the iamges they do not however have the right to release them inteo the public domain since they are not the copyright holders, i.e. the photographers. /Lokal_Profil 00:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I suppose that you've contacted USHMM and clarified the situation about the copyright law ? I.e. if it occurs image was taken by a Polish photographer we can use {{PD-Polish}} template. Lothar25 18:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Lets not mix {{template:PD-Polish}} into the discussion since there is no proof that the images were published in Poland. Also they are not not PD-old. I believe the images should be treated as PD since a reputable institution backed by US government says they are. If they are PD enough for US government they should be PD for us.--Jarekt 20:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We often deleted collected images from US sources with a PD claim when they did not fulfill our requirements: Appropriate source (not just some institution which doesn’t provide additional information on the author) and verifiably in the public domain in the country of creation. In the past we could show for example, that portraits of nazi officials were done by Heinrich Hoffmann and thus are not in the public domain in Germany/European Union until 2028, no matter if his property was seized by the US government. One image shows the caption: „Carl Strott“. So we know the author. He was still alive in 1945, since he was sentenced to seven years imprisonment. Even if he died that year, this image is not in the public domain until 2016. It also says that it is courtesy of Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen (Bundesarchiv), an institution not known for free licensing. All in all: It’s a real big step towards the license template work by the US government. --Polarlys 13:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The situation is similar to that of Template:PD-LOC (images from library of congress) that template got deprecated because "The fact that a work came from the US Library of Congress is not an indication that it is public domain". The same thing should apply to the USHMM, what's needed is a image by image motivation for why a particular image is PD, i.e. exactly what we require for all other images. /Lokal_Profil 01:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Lokal Profil that images should not be labeled PD just because they come from USHMM. USHMM has a lot of images which they claim to be copyrighted, but I do think it shold be applied to images which they deternined to be PD. --Jarekt 01:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Per the Berne Convention and the World Intellectual Property Organization Copyright Treaty, these images are in the public domain, because as a matter of law a copyright can only be asserted when the creator is identified. Courts in both Europe and the United States have repeatedly held that anonymous Holocaust images like this are not subject to copyright and are therefore in the public domain. For a very specific and detailed discussion of this issue, see Photographing the Holocaust: Interpretations of the Evidence, by Janina Struk, wherein she explains, in lay terms, how anonymous Holocaust images of this sort are in the public domain. As well, international law has, for more than sixty years, voided all copyrights to photographs made by the Axis powers in the 1933-1945 period. Copyright Attorney 19:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All Kept There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that these images are fine. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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