Talk:1948 Palestine war

Morris' "800 murdered"

The infobox currently includes the following text which I believe should be removed:

Historian Benny Morris estimates that around 800 civilians and prisoners of war were murdered "all told".

References

All estimates I'm aware of say that thousands of Palestinians killed. For example: Pappé 2022 "a few thousand died in massacres", Honaida Ghanim "thousands of Palestinians were killed and injured (Abu-Sitta, 1999)."[1]

The difference is likely due to Morris' estimate being not number of dead, but number of those "murdered". I don't believe we should be distinguishing deaths generally from so-called "murders".

- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:03, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

You provided two references, of which one (Pappé) is primarily based on oral sources. The second of which (Al-Aref) died in 1970s and isn't even quoted directly. Morris provides a (rough) breakdown of the number of victims that died in each battle, and is (arguably, of course) the most authoritative source on this war. I strongly believe that his estimate should be left as is, at least among other figures. If anything, I'd suggest removing the other sources. Amayorov (talk) 06:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Amayorov, I know you added this content so pinging you. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:04, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@IOHANNVSVERVS Could you provide better references for "a few thousand died in massacres"? You're currently quoting Aref al-Aref, who died in 1973 and isn't even quoted directly (WP:TERTIARYUSE). Inclusion of such an author gives an impression of WP:UNDUE, especially when it is given the same prominence as Morris' estimate. Amayorov (talk) 13:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

@IOHANNVSVERVS I've removed Aref al-Aref. Please feel free to add Pappe/Ghanim's estimates! Amayorov (talk) 13:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Why would you do that? It's not a tertiary source and it is due. Henry Laurens for example cited Aref's numbers. What makes you say its undue? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Henry Laurens cites Aref al-Aref's estimates and Walid Khalidi cites his estimate of the number killed at Lydda in Munayyer, S. (1998). The Fall of Lydda. Journal of Palestine Studies, 27(4), 80–98. https://doi.org/10.2307/2538132. So there is significant WP:USEBYOTHERS here which establishes that Aref's estimates are due for inclusion. Not any reason whatsoever to exclude Aref's estimate. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Morris also mentions Aref's estimate of number killed ar Lydda in Morris, B. (1986). Operation Dani and the Palestinian Exodus from Lydda and Ramle in 1948. Middle East Journal, 40(1), 82–109. http://www.jstor.org/stable/4327250. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Was al-Aref an eyewitness or a participant of the war (a primary source)? Or did he produce any peer-reviewed or even published works that cite this figure? Because Munayyer, S. (1998) doesn't refer any of them. If he has, then it is this work that should be sourced from as a secondary source instead.

Another concern is WP:OLDSOURCES (al-Aref died in 1973), but I can't speak if that applies to him unless I see the historical work in question. Amayorov (talk) 18:06, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Aref al-Aref was a historian. Why you want to remove his estimate, especially when it has significant WP:USEBYOTHERS, is beyond me. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to remove his estimate. I suggest that you either quote a work published by him that cites these figures (a mention of which I cannot find anywhere), or reference other historians directly (such as Henry Laurens or Ilan Pappe). Amayorov (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You just did remove his estimate...

He published a six volume work on the Nakba but I don't believe it has been translated into English. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I cannot find his work that has been quoted by either of these authors in any language. Foreign language sources can be used too – in fact, La question de Palestine by Lawrens also hasn't been translated into English AFAIK.

I removed his estimate, and immediately invited you to provide a better reference. Amayorov (talk) 18:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

There's no need for a better reference, what makes you say there is? I'm not aware of any reason that we can't cite Aref's estimate as reported by Henry Laurens. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

There is, because if you aren't quoting a published work by al-Aref, sourcing him isn't WP:SECONDARY. The fact that he is classified as a historian doesn't matter. For example, he could have orally transmitted a first-hand account he witnessed.

Imagine if Laurens referred to many different authors that provide a range of estimates. One of these happens to be al-Aref. If you cherry-pick a single (al-Aref's) figure Laurens cites, and use Laurens' work as a reference, that is source misrepresentation.

If you are confident that Laurens only cites al-Aref or that he shares his findings, then you should directly reference Laurens. I personally cannot check this, because Laurens' book hasn't been translated. Amayorov (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@IOHANNVSVERVS Thank you for adding an additional citation to al-Aref! An important note is that al-Aref counts all he refers to as "martyrs", which isn't limited to civilians. Amayorov (talk) 13:11, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight/Archive_20#Extended-confirmed-protected_edit_request_on_12_April_2024

Laurens quotation & translation

Henry Laurens, La question de Palestine, Vol. 3. 1947-1967, l'accomplissement des prophéties (2007): Original text (French): Selon le recensement opéré par 'Arif al-'Arif en 1958, le nombre de «martyrs» des armées régulières arabes s'éléverait à: Égypte: 961 plus 200 irréguliers Jordanie: 362 plus 200 irréguliers Irak: 199 plus 200 irréguliers Arabie saoudite: 68 plus 105 irréguliers Liban: 11 plus 150 irréguliers Syrie: 307 plus 204 irréguliers Armée de secours : 512 Autres Arabes (Yéménites, Soudanais, Nord-Africains): 200 Non-Arabes (Arméniens, Grecs, Européens, Hindous): 42 L'ordre de grandeur serait de 3,700 Les pertes palestiniennes: Identifiés nominalement comme étant morts à l'occasion d'un combat: 1,953 Noms non connus mais nombre, lieux et dates connus: 4,004 Noms et dates non connus mais lieux connus: 7,043 L'ordre de grandeur est de 13,000, soit un peu plus du double des pertes juives, ce qui fait une proportion grossièrement équivalente en fonction de la population totale. Mais il est clair que la plus grande partie des pertes palestiniennes concerne des non-combattants et correspond aux succès israéliens. - English translation (using DeepL): According to the census carried out by 'Arif al-'Arif in 1958, the number of "martyrs" of the regular Arab armies was as follows: Egypt: 961 plus 200 irregulars Jordan: 362 plus 200 irregulars Iraq: 199 plus 200 irregulars Saudi Arabia: 68 plus 105 irregulars Lebanon: 11 plus 150 irregulars Syria: 307 plus 204 irregulars Relief Army: 512 Other Arabs (Yemenis, Sudanese, North Africans): 200 Non-Arabs (Armenians, Greeks, Europeans, Hindus): 42 The order of magnitude would be 3,700 Palestinian casualties: Nominally identified as having died in combat: 1,953 Names unknown but number, places and dates known: 4,004 Names and dates unknown but places known: 7,043 The order of magnitude is 13,000, or slightly more than double the Jewish losses, which makes for a roughly equivalent proportion of the total population. But it is clear that the bulk of Palestinian casualties are non-combatants, and correspond to Israeli successes.

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

@IOHANNVSVERVS This is good. Does Laurens reference any particular publication by al-Arif? Does he cite any other figures or sources? Amayorov (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there is a footnote saying "Volume 6 of the Nakba is devoted to drawing up lists of victims and as far as possible identifying them by name." (DeepL translation)

Referring to https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1647946 IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

And there are doubtless more examples, these are just what I could find very easily. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Also I still believe that this "800 murdered" estimate from Morris is not due for inclusion. Morris says "Palestinian losses, in civilians and armed irregulars, are unclear: they may have been slightly higher, or much higher, than the Israeli losses" after stating that "“In the 1948 war, the Yishuv suffered 5,700-5,8oo dead — one quarter of them civilians.” So this 800 number is not a death toll estimate but an estimate of how many were "murdered" (which would be based on only Benny Morris' opinion on what constitutes murder and what doesn't) — "In the yearlong war, Yishuv troops probably murdered some eight hundred civilians and prisoners of war all told-most of them in several clusters of massacres in captured villages during April-May, July, and October-November 1948."

Infoboxes are for factual information like death toll estimates, not for opinions such as how many deaths were considered "murders". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that this is what Morris implies. The first figure includes armed irregulars (such as ALA). The second figure includes only civilians and PoW. So there is no contradiction between them.

Regarding the choice of the verb 'murder', Morris uses it throughout the book when referring to the killing of non-combatants. Such use is customary. Amayorov (talk) 18:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not possible that Morris' '800 murdered' estimate refers to all "killing[s] of non-combatants". Or if it does then Morris contradicts himself, since if you add up all his estimates of non-combatant Palestinians killed in individual attacks, you get >900 at the very minimum. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, '800 murdered' refers to civilians and PoWs only. He uses the verb 'to murder' here (as throughout the book) because these two groups are non-combatants. Or if it does then Morris contradicts himself, since if you add up all his estimates of non-combatant Palestinians killed in individual attacks, you get >900 at the very minimum — where do you source this from? Amayorov (talk) 18:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

"'800 murdered' refers to civilians and PoWs only" - Sure.

I added up all the estimates of civilian and PoW deaths which Morris provides. The result is that the sum of his estimates for individual killings contradicts his overall estimate of 800. This is something I'm currently working on and I'll present this in more detail eventually.

Also note that "Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources." per WP:CALC. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

This is absolutely a violation of WP:No Original Research. These are not "routine" calculations, many of his estimates can be double-counted if not done carefully, and some figures he provides are estimates. I know it first hand. Again, you are not sticking to secondary material but are trying to personally challenge a historian's assertion. Amayorov (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I am sticking to secondary sources. Interesting that you have no concern that Morris contradicts himself. Like I said, I plan on reporting here about this issue in more detail eventually. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You're sticking to secondary sources, while trying to personally disprove them using very questionable methodology. I don't think that Morris contradicts himself for the reasons I outlined above. It might be that you're trying to cherry-pick an author's work, dismissing bits that you dislike. At the same time, you're happy to quote Pappé, who provides no primary source for his estimate at all. Amayorov (talk) 19:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

How is adding up Morris' estimates "very questionable methodology"?

How could it be possible that adding up numbers is "cherry-picking an author's work"?

Re: "You're happy to quote Pappé, who provides no primary source for his estimate at all." Morris doesn't provide any sources for his estimate either so I'm not sure what you're trying to say or imply here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Because most of the evidence regarding the massacres come from Morris himself, including on Wikipedia and this very page, yet you're reluctant to quote him when he seemingly contradicts a certain view of the war.

I can't say how you arrived at that the >900 figure. However, it's very easy to double count, because Morris sometimes follows up by providing bulk counts at the end of a chapter. I myself have made such errors in the past. The difference of 100 could've popped up here. In any case, this is a topic for peer-reviewed research. Out of interest, I'd appreciate if you could share your methodology, but this is clearly violating both WP:NOR and WP:CALC.

Re Pappé: Morris provides in-line citations usually at-least once per paragraph, often per sentence – especially when it comes to numerical estimates. Pappé doesn't provide a single source for that figure. Amayorov (talk) 19:57, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Morris gives no citation for his 800 estimate.

"I'd appreciate if you could share your methodology, but this is clearly violating both WP:NOR and WP:CALC." There's no methodology... I'm just counting which is consistent with WP:CALC. Of course I'll show my work to show there were no double counts etc and so that we can achieve "consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Morris gives no citation for his 800 estimate. – because virtually every other number that he uses to come to this conclusion is referenced to primary sources. The issue is counting – which AFAIK wasn't raised by any reviewers of the book.

Unlike him, Pappé rarely cites primary documents in general, mostly relying on other secondary sources (among which Morris figures prominently) or oral testimonies. But this isn't a thread about Pappé. Amayorov (talk) 20:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I think we have to either include Morris' 800 number or not. Even if he contradicts himself, the aggregation work needed to demonstrate that seems beyond the scope of WP:CALC, which is more for plain number crunching with little aggregation or interpretation.

In terms of which estimates to include, if there isn't a clear scholarly consensus (I'm not aware of one), normally that's a reason to ensure both sides are represented. If it ends up being too much clutter for the infobox, we could move it elsewhere. I can't personally verify al-Aref either so not sure what to do there. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:17, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Minor edit

Existing text "The revolve began with a general strike ...". I can't edit, but the word intended is likely to be "revolt". Antillarum (talk) 04:38, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for catching this typo. Levivich (talk) 05:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2024

The first paragraph fails to mention that Arab armies invaded. This is central and should be included. 2607:FEA8:539F:FA00:3D32:90F6:8D54:8234 (talk) 16:58, 21 September 2024 (UTC) It's in the third para. This article starts in 47. Selfstudier (talk) 17:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC)