Talk:Kharkov Governorate

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Proposed merge of Kharkiv Governorate into Kharkov Governorate

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To merge for short text, context and overlap. Klbrain (talk) 22:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

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This appears to be the same legal entity as the older one, with no evidence it was ever considered a different unit. It's worth noting that the Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedias don't even have articles on the supposed 1918-1925 governorate. HappyWith (talk) 02:08, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

But why merge administrative units of two different states? Marcelus (talk) 10:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Because one of those states is the successor of the other. We treat Kharkiv Oblast the same way - it's the same legal entity, though it existed both in the Ukrainian SSR and in modern Ukraine. The Soviet Union also pretty quickly abolished Kharkiv Governorate and replaced it with another administrative system once it established stable control over that territory anyway. HappyWith (talk) 17:31, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Ukrainian Hetmanate or URL or even Soviet Ukraine weren't successors of the Imperial Russia. Marcelus (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think the Hetmanate is relevant. UNR (URL?) and UkrSSR/URSR certainly succeeded the Russian empire on their own territory. Russian empire had no legal continuator state at all, because the Bolsheviks refused to take on its identity.

Anyway, there are plenty of precedent articles about other gubernias.  —Michael Z. 00:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Support merge into Kharkiv Governorate. The same administrative subdivision was successively called Slodoba Ukraine gubernia 1765–80, Kharkiv viceroyalty 1780–96, Sloboda Ukraine gubernia 1796–1835, Kharkiv gubernia 1835–1925. It remained under five states: Russian empire to 1917, Russian Republic 1917–18, independent Ukraine (UNR) 1918–1921, Soviet Ukraine (UkrSSR) 1919–1922, Soviet Union (USSR) 1922–1925. We deal with every other Ukrainian gubernia as a single historical article: Chernihiv Governorate 1802–1925, Kherson Governorate 1803–1920, Kyiv Governorate 1802–1925, Podolia Governorate 1793–1925, Poltava Governorate 1802–1925, Volhynian Governorate 1795–1925, and Yekaterinoslav Governorate 1802–1925, and this one should be consistent. The article with the older history should be the merge target, and the Ukrainian-derived name spelled Kharkiv should be retained: this spelling is used as much or more often than Kharkov in reliable sources,[1][2][3] and should be used according to WP:MODERNPLACENAME: “older names should be used in appropriate historical contexts when a substantial majority of reliable modern sources do the same.”  —Michael Z. 21:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

This makes sense - all the sources in the article call it "Kharkiv Governorate" or some variation like "Kharkiv gubernia". If there isn't a demonstration that the old name (Kharkov) is more common than the new name (Kharkiv), we should use the new spelling, and there hasn't been that demonstration. HappyWith (talk) 21:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

See also Talk:Little Russia Governorate (1796–1802)#Merge proposal.  —Michael Z. 21:29, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

There are three exceptions to the single-article rule, two gubernias liquidated in the imperial period and one only established during WWI. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Archive 7#Merging articles on governorates in Ukraine, which didn’t lead to any action.  —Michael Z. 21:34, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Things you are saying aren't true; the mentioned articles about Governorates are strictly about Russian administrative units. Marcelus (talk) 08:32, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

That’s false. I mentioned at least six articles about gubernias that remained in Ukraine after the Russian empire ceased to exist. There are many, many such articles about other gubernias that outlasted that state.  —Michael Z. 15:56, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Support merging, since currently there are not much information warranting having separate articles. However, in the combined article, there should be a clear separation of two periods, since after the 1917 Russian Revolution all administrative divisions became very fluid (in all constituent entities), and in particular, there were many changes in the borders and compositions of the Governorates of Ukraine. If the article grows too much in the future, then it can be split again (by periods), with 1917 a clear separation point. Kammerer55 (talk) 07:44, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

This is what I intended, yeah. HappyWith (talk) 16:22, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose; do not merge administrative units of two different states. It's insane and against Wiki rules to even propose that. Marcelus (talk) 08:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Which rules?  —Michael Z. 15:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

WP:SAMENAME, WP:GNG. Marcelus (talk) 22:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

One subject. E.g., in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine.[4]

But if you can show evidence of significant coverage of Kharkiv gubernia, Russian empire, Kharkiv gubernia, Russian Republic, Kharkiv gubernia, Ukrainian People’s Republic, Kharkiv gubernia, Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and Kharkiv Gubernia, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics . . .  —Michael Z. 01:00, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Governorates were inherited by the Ukrainian SSR, but they were never considered inherent units of subdivisions of the UkrSSR and were abolished shortly (in 1925) in favor of the newly-created (in 1923) okruhas and raions. Kammerer55 (talk) 21:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what makes them inherent or not, but were the subdivision of Soviet Ukraine 1919 to 1925.  —Michael Z. 01:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support not going to judge on the content-based arguments but from a quality perspective, the article for Kharkiv Governorate is currently a stub and the other article Kharkov Governorate would objectively benefit from the merger in terms of improved article quality/content. That said, the article Kharkiv Governorate could be turned into a section on the Kharkov Governorate article, with the content from the Kharkiv (Ukrainian) article copied into that section, most of the info in the infobox turned into prose and added into the section, and the map turned into a thumb image. Hopefully this explanation makes sense. Best, Dan the Animator 05:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
• Merge into Kharkov Governorate per above. Mellk (talk) 11:20, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 22:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)