Talk:SS John Sherman/GA2

GA Reassessment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

As there are now references supporting the fact that the ship was initially the USRC Sherman there is a significant history missing and some history in the article is being given undue weight. Consequently this Good Article has been delisted. Gusfriend (talk) 01:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

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I have recently edited the page to remove a large amount of content that was only peripherally related to the ship itself. Because of the significant change since the article was promoted to GA status I believe that it should be re-examined and then delisted. The article is also missing important information about the ship including when it was built, passenger capacity, cargo capacity, etc. It may be appropriate for it to be elevated to GA in future but it is not there now.Gusfriend (talk) 06:42, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: should be given the opportunity to consider the reassessment. I would just state that it would be useful to include the information you allude to above, but if suitable sources are not available it may not be possible. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 15:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look at some point soon. I'd only been reviewing GAs for a couple months when I reviewed this one, so I could well have missed something. @Gusfriend: - I've personally written articles on 19th century ships before, and the information you allude to often doesn't exist. See for instance, USS Maria J. Carlton, CSS Baltic, and USS Sidney C. Jones, all of whom are military ships with former civilian trade usage that is largely unknown. Hog Farm _Talk 15:41, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

HF comments

• "The ship commander was Captain John W. Steward" - source just says Capt. Steward, not seeing where his full name is in there.

•  Done Replaced reference with website that verifies full name.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 08:20, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

• "It shuttled packaged freight, grain, and people across Lake Michigan between Ludington and Sheboygan, Wisconsin" - source mentions a route between Ludington and Manitowoc, but not seeing where Sheboygan is mentioned? Also no apparent reference to hauling people, although the newspaper text was small enough I had to squint pretty bad so I could have missed it.

•  Done Replaced news clip with Hilton reference. Book reference says, "John Sherman to run to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, to connect with the Sheboygan & Fond du Lac Railway. The railroad was apparently interested mainly in eastbound grain movements, but the steamer also handled passengers and general cargo."

I can't access most of the sourcing, although it looks like I dropped the ball a bit in my review. A few quick searches are not bringing up any information about the lacking details, but I admittedly don't really know where to look for such things for Great Lakes freighters. Hog Farm _Talk 22:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

In the reference Pictorial History of the C & O Train and Auto Ferries and Pere Marquette Line Steamers it appears to say (from the excerpt that I can read on page 4) that it was a former US Revenue Cutter and the timeframe matches the section United States Revenue Cutter Service#Post–Civil War operations. It also appears to say on page 69 that John Sherman was 175' x 28'5 and was built in Cleveland, OH in 1865. That might help with some of the history information.

On page 4 it says between Luddington and various Wisconsin ports.

On page 4 the snippet that I can read also says that the Sherman was rebuilt at Detroit but not that it operated out of there although that may be somewhere else on the page.Gusfriend (talk) 05:58, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that the SS John Sherman is the USCGC Sherman as the dates roughly line up. See [1], [2] [3] and some nice NYTimes information on the building of the Revenue Cutter at [4] where it is called the fastest craft on lake Eire and I suspect that there are other interesting items in their history. I suspect that there are amazing records at [5] that would take some serious digging out. Eventually scanned information including logbooks will be available at [6]. There is probably also good information in the book King, Irving H. (1989). The Coast Guard under sail : the U.S. Revenue Cutter Service, 1789-1865. Annapolis, Md.: Naval Institute Press. ISBN 0-87021-234-6. OCLC 19981299.. Gusfriend (talk) 08:10, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, we'll still need to find a source that explicitly ties them together. Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/James Armstrong (Georgia politician)/1 is a cautionary tale of what happens when you assume that "same time frame, same name" means that the two are the same. Hog Farm _Talk 14:39, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

The periodical Telescope published by the Great Lakes Maritime Institute in 1962 (see [7]) has that the revenue cutter John Sherman was commissioned the John Sherman after service and engines later went to Alaska and Kirby. The 1872 Revenue annual report has some interesting reading ([8]) including the fact that the Sherman was disposed of as it was in worse condition than the others. The list of merchant vessels of the US in 1878 at ([9]) matches up except telescope says 75804 v. 75408 which makes me think of a Telescope error. Gusfriend (talk) 06:12, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

So it looks like it matches, based on Telescope vs. Frederickson. @Doug Coldwell: - Do you still have access to Frederickson to see what Frederickson says? It's possible Frederickson may contain more information that'll help tie this together too. The history section should be fixable. Hog Farm _Talk 13:44, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that there are also newspaper reports about the sale of the cutter in Cleveland during the 1871-1872 period, possibly in the Cleveland press but I wasn't having much luck finding it. Gusfriend (talk) 23:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• @Hog Farm: I used the book before as an ILL. I have just now ordered it again to be sent to my local library, however will take about 7-10 days to get. Meanwhile, just snippets are available to view. When the book arrives at my local library I'll see what additional I can find. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:59, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• No rush! This can wait for ILL to work its magic. Hog Farm _Talk 15:04, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• @Hog Farm: I have the Frederickson book in front of me now and I don't see anything other than what I have written in the article. I corrected the article to show that When she was converted into a barge her engines were first used in the boat Alaska and then in 1890 into the boat Frank E. Kirby. This information is on page 4. On page 5 it does talk about the JOHN SHERMAN being too small for the amount of freight traffic and so in 1876 the F. & P.M.R.R. chartered ships from the Goodrich Line to carry this freight. That's all I have. That's all there is. There is nothing about a USCGC Sherman. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  The exact date of sale of the USCGC Sherman in Cleveland is June 25, 1872 per [10] so a newspaper around that date may be able to help. Gusfriend (talk) 22:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• I see that in the PDF, however I don't see any connection of a USCGC Sherman to the SS John Sherman in any book or website I have come across. As you can see I used several books for research and none mentioned a USCGC Sherman. The way I understand it is that SS John Sherman was a privately owned side-wheel steamboat and already a ferry service across Lake Michigan in 1873. The railroad company hired the cross-lake ferry service from Ludington to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, on June 25, 1874. Searching Newspapers.com under "USCGC Sherman" and they all talk about a modern ship of the late twentieth century on 48 matches. There are no matches for the nineteenth century.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:09, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  It may be called a "revenue cutter" or "USRC Sherman". There seems to be a mix of ways that it is referred to. When I looked at the The Plain Dealer there were references to what the Sherman has been doing. I wonder if the simplest approach is to expand the USCGC Sherman page and then add a note to both talk pages that it is possible that they are linked and it needs confirmation. Gusfriend (talk) 12:05, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• This proves that the 1872 USCGC Sherman at Cleveland can not be the SS John Sherman. The SS John Sherman was traveling across Lake Michigan in 1873 from its home port of Ludington. In order for the SS John Sherman to get to Cleveland it would have to travel to the top of Lake Michigan and then from the Straits of Mackinac all the way down Lake Huron. This distance is over 600 miles and would have taken weeks if not months to travel.. The SS John Sherman was built to travel across Lake Michigan, a distance of 118 miles. Not only could the SS John Sherman not be capable of traveling the 600 miles from Cleveland to Ludington, there would be no reason for the SS John Sherman to be in Cleveland in 1872. In 1872 it was busy traveling from Ludington, Michigan, to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, carrying people and freight. It was already a busy ferry service across Lake Michigan in 1873. This is why the F. & P.M.R.R. hired its service in 1874. because it was capable of carrying freight across Lake Michigan and had established itself as a freighter across Lake Michigan out of Ludington. There is no connection of the SS John Sherman with Cleveland. That makes no sense whatsoever. The 1872 USCGC Sherman of Cleveland is NOT the 1873 SS John Sherman of Ludington, Michigan.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:21, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  The article, supported by a reference, says that the SS John Sherman was built in Cleveland so it was capable of traveling from there to Ludington. Gusfriend (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Keep in mind that the railroad company hired the cross-lake ferry service from Ludington to Sheboygan, Wisconsin, on June 25, 1874. They then initiated a public commercial package freight service across Lake Michigan on May 31, 1875. In '"Marine Review" journal it says, Mr. Fitzpatrick resided in Buffalo until 1861 and then went to Detroit to take charge of the E. B. Ward line of steamers . In 1865 he moved to Cleveland , having been appointed chief engineer of the United States revenue steamer John Sherman. Keep in mind that Fitzpatrick was with the USCGC Sherman of Cleveland until 1871. This proves that they are two different ships. No connection between the two.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Keep in mind that the USCGC Sherman was a large US government ship that carried freight from 1865 to at least 1871 out of Cleveland. The SS John Sherman was a small ship that only carried freight for one season in 1875 and had to be replaced with other ships because it was too small to carry the railroad freight. The railroad at first leased ships from the Goodrich Lines. Then in 1882 the F&PM railroad company had built two wooden freighters to replace the SS John Sherman. They were numbered F&PM #1 and F&PM #2. From my research on E. B. Ward it showed he built large freighter ships. In my research for creating the article on E B Ward I never came across a SS John Sherman ship out of Ludington. No doubt that these are two different ships - no connection between the two. The USCGC Sherman (1865) established itself as a freighter out of Cleveland, while the SS John Sherman (1873) established itself as a freighter across Lake Michigan. Two different ships altogether. One is a very large ship and the other a small ship. They are not connected to each other.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• The USCGC Sherman was 488 tons and cruised the waters of Lake Erie. Being this large it would have been easy for it to carry the freight of the F. & P.M. railroad across Lake Michigan for years. However the SS John Sherman (1873), cruising Lake Michigan, carried the railroad freight for only one season in 1875 because it was so small. It was only 175 feet long by 28.5 feet wide. The USCGC Sherman was huge and gigantic, while the SS John Sherman was small and tiny. Descriptions of two different ships.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• The USCGC Sherman was with a group of side-propeller (twin-screw) U.S. Revenue Cutters that included the Commodore Perry, Andrew Johnson, John A. Dix, and the first Fessenden that were still servicing the Great Lakes in 1884. In 1879, the SS John Sherman (1873) was made into a barge and served that purpose until 1893 and then scrapped. Two different life histories - two different ships altogether.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with Doug here. There's no conclusive evidence these are the same thing, so we can't include that information in the article. I don't think there's any completeness issues here. Hog Farm _Talk 19:35, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  I think that I have something here:

  • I found the Gerald C. Metzler Great Lakes Vessel Database at the Wisconsin Maritime Museum. When you search for Sherman you get the link between the two.. In particular:
    • Vessel type is Steamer (Sidewheel) (1865-1879); Barge (1879-1881); Schooner (1881-1893); which matches.
    • Owner -> United States Revenue Cutter Service, (1865-1872)
    • Official number - * U.S.- 75408 * Undocumented, (1865-1872)", i.e. The ship was given the registration number in 1872 after it was no longer owned by the USRCS.
    • VESSEL REMARKS -> United States Revenue Cutter Service, (1865-1872) and Engines were placed in the ""Alaska"", and later into ""Frank E. Kirgy;
    • Built in Cleveland in 1965.
  • I got there from the Historical Collections of the Great Lakes at [Bowling Green State University https://www.bgsu.edu/library/]. In particular the Sherman page which has both the USRCS and SS Sherman on it. This is sourced to, amongst other places, the Great Lakes Vessel Database. The links page has a bunch of interesting links.

  As an aside, in response to the paragraphs above, the USRC John Sherman and the SS John Sherman are the same size (see [11]). Also whilst the USRC Sherman was part a collection side wheelers, if you look at page 3 of the annual review you will see that the USRC had cutters that were excess to requirements which is why they sold the Sherman. Gusfriend (talk) 02:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

  Note also that this reference [12] says that it was beached, etc. in 1906. Gusfriend (talk) 02:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• @Gusfriend: Apparently what you are looking for is when the SS John Sherman was built, passenger capacity, and cargo capacity. From all these sources you have come across none of that information is available, unless I missed it. If you type in Google "Revenue Marine" 1872 the first result is https://media.defense.gov - 1872 U.S. Revenue Marine Service Annual Report. This PDF shows the John Sherman at 488 tons, headquartered at Cleveland, and cruising grounds in the waters of Lake Erie. I know that the SS John Sherman I wrote about was cruising in the waters of Lake Michigan in 1873 (probably before). I get the feeling that this SS John Sherman was considerable smaller than 488 tons as it only carried freight for 1 year in 1875 because it was too small. I believe this to be two different ships. There is nothing more I can add to the SS John Sherman article, because there is nothing more available in any sources. The article is as complete as I can make it based on the sources available.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:26, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

• All issues have been addressed. Any missed? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:17, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Link between USRC John Sherman and SS John Sherman

In addition to the information provided above:

• "John Sherman (Cutter)". Detroit Free Press. 2 April 1874. Retrieved 8 November 2022 – via The Maritime History of the Great Lakes.
• "John Sherman (Steamboat)". Detroit Advertiser & Tribune. 22 March 1873. Retrieved 8 November 2022 – via The Maritime History of the Great Lakes.
• "John Sherman (Barge)". The Saginaw Courier. 24 April 1886. Retrieved 8 November 2022 – via The Maritime History of the Great Lakes.

With 3 separate newspapers from the time stating the link combined with the information presented above I believe that there are sufficient sources to say that they are the same ship. Gusfriend (talk) 02:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.