Template talk:Sfn

Change to documentation about four authors and more

I find that the Sfn format does not properly work (does not achieve "bi-directional link" functionality), if a work has multiple authors (..like 20) and the top 4 names are not listed completely. Ideally it would be better to correct the code and keep the functionality for just 1 author listed (the first author). If not, and in the meantime, the documentation of this page needs to be changed:

EXAMPLE:
With this Cite using multiple authors:
* {{cite journal |last1=Jeong |first1=Choongwon |last2=Wang |first2=Ke |last3=Wilkin |first3=Shevan |last4=Taylor |first4=William Timothy Treal |last5=Miller |first5=Bryan K. |last6=Bemmann |first6=Jan H. |last7=Stahl |first7=Raphaela |last8=Chiovelli |first8=Chelsea |last9=Knolle |first9=Florian |last10=Ulziibayar |first10=Sodnom |last11=Khatanbaatar |first11=Dorjpurev |last12=Erdenebaatar |first12=Diimaajav |last13=Erdenebat |first13=Ulambayar |last14=Ochir |first14=Ayudai |last15=Ankhsanaa |first15=Ganbold |last16=Vanchigdash |first16=Chuluunkhuu |last17=Ochir |first17=Battuga |last18=Munkhbayar |first18=Chuluunbat |last19=Tumen |first19=Dashzeveg |last20=Kovalev |first20=Alexey |last21=Kradin |first21=Nikolay |last22=Bazarov |first22=Bilikto A. |last23=Miyagashev |first23=Denis A. |last24=Konovalov |first24=Prokopiy B. |last25=Zhambaltarova |first25=Elena |last26=Miller |first26=Alicia Ventresca |last27=Haak |first27=Wolfgang |last28=Schiffels |first28=Stephan |last29=Krause |first29=Johannes |last30=Boivin |first30=Nicole |last31=Erdene |first31=Myagmar |last32=Hendy |first32=Jessica |last33=Warinner |first33=Christina |title=A Dynamic 6,000-Year Genetic History of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe |journal=Cell |date=12 November 2020 |volume=183 |issue=4 |pages=890–904.e29 |doi=10.1016/j.cell.2020.10.015 |url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7664836/ |issn=0092-8674}}

Sfn will not work (not poppup window to the ref, and no active link to the ref) if written with just one author:
{{sfn|Jeong|2020}}

Only this will work (a bit cumbersome!!):
{{sfn|Jeong|Wang|Wilkin|Taylor|2020}}

Therefore I suggest the following changes to the documentation (or better, if possible, change the programming to allow for just one authors, if someone if able to...):

ORIGINAL TEXT:

• Parameters
  

Author(s) and year
The author and the year of publication are the only required parameters. Up to four authors can be given as parameters."

NEEDS TO BE CHANGED TO:

• Parameters
  

Author(s) and year
The author and the year of publication are the only required parameters. If the authors are multiple, they have to be listed up to the fourth.

ORIGINAL TEXT:

• Large number of authors
  

Only the first four authors are required by the template. Listing more is not supported.

NEEDS TO BE CHANGED TO:

• Large number of authors
  

The first four authors are required by the template. Listing more is not supported. Listing less will disable the "bi-directional link" functionality.

Comments welcome. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried your example, and it is working to spec, nothing needs to be changed in the template. The documentation is accurate, as far as it goes, but I can see why you were confused. The "Usage" section does say,

• <last2>–<last4> – positional parameters; surnames of next three authors

but if that isn't clear enough, perhaps something could be added to the Parameters section as well. I made a slight change to the top line under Parameters, which describes the first four authors more clearly as being "required". I don't feel that more extensive changes are needed, but I hope this change resolves any misunderstanding. Mathglot (talk) 08:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Mathglot: Do you mean that if you use {{sfn|Jeong|2020}} with my Cite example above, you do get the full ref popup and "bi-directional link" functionality? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 09:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

So dropping the word "Only" from the original text would clarify the point. There's no need to says what happens if people don't use the template as documented. Kanguole 12:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I have clarified the documentation text in question to make it more explicit. I hope this is helpful to less experienced editors who want to use this useful template family. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I took another crack at it as well (at the risk of some duplication from the previous edit, but to make it crystal clear—I hope). पाटलिपुत्र, with these changes from Jonesy and me, does it make more sense to you now? Mathglot (talk) 19:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jonesey95 and Mathglot: All very clear now! Thank you very much! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 19:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Change to documentation about maximum length for "loc="

I find that with Sfn the parameter loc= only works up to 1000 characters. Could we add the following text ("up to 1000 characters maximum") in order to warn users:

ORIGINAL TEXT:
Adding additional comments or quotes
The templates {{harvnb}} or {{harvtxt}} can be used to add quotes or additional comments into the footnote. This effect can also be achieved using {{sfn}} by adding a quote or comment to |loc=.

TO BE CHANGED TO:
Adding additional comments or quotes
The templates {{harvnb}} or {{harvtxt}} can be used to add quotes or additional comments into the footnote. This effect can also be achieved using {{sfn}} by adding a quote or comment to |loc= (up to 1000 characters maximum).

Thank you! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Why would you want that many? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Redrose64:Long quote or quotes, long notes etc... Better to have an explanation on the technical limitations of Sfn in this case, rather than leave users in the dark about why things don't work... We typically go to "documentation" when something doesn't work, so it's quite useful if the actual answers are there... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 08:39, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@पाटलिपुत्र: I'm opposed to this request. The parameter |loc= is absolutely not to be used for quotations, long, or short. It is for something else entirely, which is documented under § Usage. In short, it is a replacement for parameter |p= or |pp= when those params are not appropriate; for example, the book cover, unpaged copyright page, or even in tandem with one of the page parameters, where you could use |loc= to specify a figure or diagram number, as well as a page, or a page plus a footnote number, for example. If the description in the doc about param |loc= is not clear, let's fix it; but there is no need to make the max length longer; think of it as 'alt-page-number'; would you want a 1000-character long field, to describe the page number location in a book? Mathglot (talk) 09:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I will have to review this situation further. In the past, there was a separate parameter for quotations, namely, |ps=, but apparently, according to the Nota bene in the doc, this has been deprecated, and quotations are now supposed to go in param {{loc}}. I unfortunately missed the Rfc that decided on that change, and on the face of it, I think it's a poor outcome, but maybe it was the best of a bunch of poorer alternatives. In any case, I have no answer for you right now, but will have to look further into this. For the time being, I would advise against using param |loc= for any type of quotation, and instead to borrow {{efn}}, and place your quotation there. There is no limit (that I am aware of) on the length of a quotation you may place in an explanatory footnote. In addition, {{efn}}'s may be placed in the reference section at the end of the article, instead of encumbering some section with a 1000-character quotation in the middle of the section. See WP:LDR for how to do this, or ask here for further details. Mathglot (talk) 09:33, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot:. Indeed the recommendation in this documentation is to use loc= for quotes, and quotes can be longish sometimes, or multiples quote fragments in the same ref can be necessary. In my mind, {{efn}} is not a ref, and is mainly used to expand on a subject in the editor's voice. It seems to me that loc= is fine (although the name is weird, quote= would be wonderful), but the so-far un-documented 1000 characters limit of loc= can be tight and bafling is one is unaware of it. I'm just trying to shift from the basic <ref>{{book=|...}}</ref> format to {{sfn}}, and pointing out a few of the basic issues in doing so... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 10:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your questions; they are very much on point. I just don't have a good answer as of yet. Perhaps someone else will. Mathglot (talk) 10:17, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The obvious solution is to use <ref>{{harvnb|Smith|2023|p=123}}: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</ref>: .

• Smith (2023). title.

-- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the suggestion to use |loc= for comments or quotes should be withdrawn, and either this form or {{efn}} suggested instead – putting quotes or comments inside short footnotes stretches them too far beyond their core purpose, which is to provide short references that get merged if referring to the same place. Kanguole 10:27, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I look at it this way. If you feel that you need to supply a quote (of any lngth) with a ref, that suggests that you need to justify why that ref was used. If you need to provide a long quote, that suggests that the ref is weak and should probably not have been used in the first place. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:30, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Suggests, yes, but sometimes it is justified. I have come across {{efn}} being used for lengthy quotes where the material is controversial in some measure and not easily accessible. The result was edit warring until the quotes established the facts. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Martin. In my case, I find that including a quotation when a source is not immediately available is a courtesy to readers and editors as it enhances short-run verifiability. I regularly do so, for example, when citing a book for which Google books does not offer a snippet that includes the page in question, or when I have access to an online source via a membership where TWL does not. On the flip side, I find including a quotation that anyone can seeby clicking the title in the ref pointless and a waste of space. Mathglot (talk) 19:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I think loc= is very convenient, and even necessary (having {{sfn}} without a possibility to provide quotes would be quite unhelpful), so I do support the current recommendation in the Documentation to use loc= for quotes, and I think it should be kept (I am only suggesting that the 1000 characters cap should be mentioned somewhere as a de-bugging technicality). Shifting again to another format, and a very cumbersome one at that, such as <ref>{{harvnb|Smith|2023|p=123}}: "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet"</ref> everytime a quote is needed, is not, I'm afraid, an elegant solution, is also not user-friendly, and is quite a mess when editing an article... Also {{efn}} is for notes, not references, so it is not a proper solution either... The current documentation provides a smart solution: it simply is necessary to have a quote option such as loc= within {{sfn}}.पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Elegance is such a subjective matter. You do realize that this massive quote or comment you're adding to |loc= is going into the fragment identifier of the URL, right? That's because |loc=, like {{sfn}} itself, was designed for a different purpose, and doesn't fit this one.

Michael Bednarek's alternative does what you're asking for, and even gets the punctuation right: colon rather than comma. Kanguole 12:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Two points in response to "{{efn}} is for notes, not references": First, there is nothing inherently different between ref tags and efn tags—an {{efn}} is just a ref tag with a default group of lower-alpha; that is, efn's by default are enumerated starting with 'a' and refs with '1'. Second, there is no particular reason that a quotation is better suited to a "reference" than an "explanatory note" as a quote is content, which I find well-suited to a note. Turning it around: including the quote (short or long) in the article but excluding the reference that identifies the source would be contrary to Wikipedia policy as it fails WP:Verifiability, so is not an option; however, including the reference and excluding the quote is just fine, the point being: the quote is not reference material, it is supplementary material not required by our guidelines, and thus may be of "explanatory" help. These are not the only two choices, as Michael and others have pointed out, but to the extent that {{efn}} is an optional, explanatory note, including the quotation in the explanatory note and not in the reference makes sense, because the quote does not identify the source, it reproduces content. That said, I find the |quote= param handy and I use it myself in a <ref> tag, but as Kanguole said, the meaning of "sfn" is a short footnote, and optional, extended information, wherever it ends up, should surely not be there. Mathglot (talk) 18:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Using |loc= to hold a quotation is semantically incorrect. I agree with others here that {{sfn}} and the other short-form templates are intended to be short. If the quotation is important to the article, put the quotation in the article and cite it; don't clutter reference sections with quotations. Quotations require citations; citations do not require quotations.

A single {{sfn}} template using |loc= to hold a quotation will include the quotation five times in the article's rendered html. For example this:

{{sfn|Name|2023|loc=Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet}}

is translated by MediaWiki to this in the article body (Lorem ... appears twice):

<sup id="cite_ref-FOOTNOTEName2023Lorem_ipsum_dolor_sit_amet_1-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-FOOTNOTEName2023Lorem_ipsum_dolor_sit_amet-1">&#91;1&#93;</a></sup>

and is translated by MediaWiki to this in the references section (Lorem ... appears three times):

<li id="cite_note-FOOTNOTEName2023Lorem_ipsum_dolor_sit_amet-1"><span class="mw-cite-backlink"><b><a href="#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEName2023Lorem_ipsum_dolor_sit_amet_1-0">^</a></b></span> <span class="reference-text"><a href="#CITEREFName2023">Name 2023</a>, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.</span></li>

Don't misuse |loc= to do something it is not designed to do.

I believe that the recommendation to use |loc= for quotations is wrong and should be removed from the documentation for all short-form templates that use Module:Footnotes.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:20, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Removed advice in the documentation to use |loc= for quotations. Mathglot (talk) 20:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Just a note

Using loc= for quotes has been policy for exactly 2 years now [1] (User:Jonesey95). And we are now cancelling this policy after a short 24h discussion? What are content contributors supposed to do? Asking editors to juggle between {{sfn||Smith|2023|p=123}} and <ref>{{harvnb|Smith|2023|p=123}}: "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet"</ref> depending on whether there is a quote or not, is not reasonnable: it's mind-numbing and discouraging even for veterans. On the contrary, the loc= fonctionality in {{sfn}} is clean and easy. If we can't use it, I wish somebody would take on the task of programming a simple, clean, coherent referencing system similar to it... like adding a quote= functionality to {{sfn}} for example. Quotations are a key element of "easy verifiablity", using them should not be such a hassle. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 21:27, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Your comments are well taken, and I understand your frustration, but a couple of points: firstly, this is an all-volunteer project, and not everything is in ship-shape order; problems abound, and this is very far from the worst of it. That said, your complaint deserves a response. Secondly, using loc for quotes is by no means policy, it's not even a guideline. It has some level of consensus, if it came out of an Rfc, and that deserves respect, so if you want to revert my doc change, go ahead, but I think it is terrible advice. "Loc" is short for "location"—i.e., part of the verifiability criterion of how to easily find the source location that verifies the assertion made by an editor in the article; that's what it is for; clearly, the Rfc decided to shoehorn quotations into |loc= because it solved some other problem that was, apparently, considered more serious.

And as far as "I wish somebody would take on the task of programming a simple, clean, coherent referencing system similar to it", Ouch!! We already have some volunteers who spend a large proportion of their time doing exactly that, for a paycheck of Zero per month; so, once again, "volunteer project". Yes, your issues are real and deserve action, and if you feel this is a deep and serious enough problem, maybe you could volunteer to take it on? Finally, I don't think quotations are "key" in verifiability at all—they represent content and don't verify anything; if quotations are worth keeping in the article, then perhaps they should be part of the article content and double-quoted, as MOS calls for, but surely not placed in a "short" footnote. Mathglot (talk) 21:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot:Adding a quote= functionality to {{sfn}} doesn't have to be complicated, especially since the lines would be identical with those of loc= we have today. I haven't seen the program, but normally duplicating the loc= lines and replacing "loc" with "quote" should be enough, and if we're lucky we can also drop the 1000 characters limit. Then, we can leave the philosophical question of whether quotes are useful of not to content creators. The quoting mechanism would be clean and simple: {{sfn|Smith|2023|p=123|quote="Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet"}} So yes, I do volunteer to take it on, if that's any use. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

This is not about whether quotes can be included in references – Michael Bednarek has shown how that is readily done. It is about whether they belong in this short footnotes template, which is designed for a different purpose. Did you see Trappist's illustration of what this does to the output HTML? Kanguole 11:24, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Wait, was there even an Rfc? I checked Archives 1 – 5, and I didn't find one. So, the doc is subject to change, and if there's disagreement, we should just talk it out. Mathglot (talk) 22:11, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

This is the discussion that led to adding this to the documentation – hardly a solid consensus. I also don't think previously given advice was solidly in favour of what was put in the documentation. Kanguole 22:16, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. In that case, we're perhaps in BRD land. I think Michael Bednarek's solution is viable, uses existing features without requiring volunteer time to alter anything, and does not "shoehorn" anything or twist the intended use of any feature out of shape. In addition, that solution has been in the documentation for at least four years now (third example), and I vote we stick with that. Mathglot (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I fail to see how my approach is "mindnumbing and discouraging" compared to Pataliputra's suggestion to lump a quotation into |loc=. Apart from the encapsulating ref tags and the position of some braces, they amount to the same keystrokes. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@Michael Bednarek: Your recommendation (if I get it right) is to use a combination of three functionalities (Sfn, Harvnb and <ref></ref>) with the following codes, depending whether we want to attach a quote or not:

• If no quote: {{sfn|Smith|2023|p=123}}
• If quote: <ref>{{harvnb|Smith|2023|p=123}}: "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet"</ref>

The policy for the last 2 years [2] has allowed to use a single functionality (Sfn) whether there is a quote or not, and only use the loc= extension if there is a quote:

• If no quote: {{sfn|Smith|2023|p=123}}
• If quote: {{sfn|Smith|2023|p=123|loc="Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet"}}

I can see a difference, which can be quite huge when you contribute a lot of content, or when you are trying to sort out the source code of a page... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 11:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I will repeat what I've said before: there is no policy and no guideline that says what you claim. There was not even an Rfc that said that. There was just something written on a template doc page, like you, me, or some random IP could have written. And as far as what was on that doc page for two years, the solution to the issue, as reiterated by Michael, has been on that same page for four years (at least). It is also a bit difficult to provide a technical solution to a problem when we don't have the actual problem in view, so if you can please link the article and section where you are having this issue, the concrete realities of the particular problem would come into focus, enabling other editors here to better help you find a solution that might be workable for you. Mathglot (talk) 05:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Special characters

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

{{sfn}} and {{harvid}} seem to be out of sync on handling special characters. See Collective work for several examples that now show up as redlinks. Thus

{{sfn|Bernard Safran: Paintings – safran-arts}}

Generates a link to

CITEREFBernard_Safran:_Paintings_%E2%80%93_safran-arts

but

{{harvid|Bernard Safran: Paintings – safran-arts}}

generates

CITEREFBernard_Safran:_Paintings_–_safran-arts

The effect is

CITEREFBernard_Safran:_Paintings_–_safran-arts

Aymatth2 (talk) 14:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Are you sure? I'm not seeing any errors in Collective work. In your examples above, you don't include a target, so here is the target from Collective work:

{{citation|ref={{harvid|Bernard Safran: Paintings – safran-arts}} |title=Bernard Safran: Paintings|work=safran-arts.com |url=http://www.safran-arts.com/index.html|access-date=5 June 2017}}

"Bernard Safran: Paintings", safran-arts.com, retrieved 5 June 2017

Where is the error?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that sfn generating a link with an url encoded dash, the way you have it. Rather, it generates a link to #CITEREFBernard_Safran:_Paintings_–_safran-arts. If you are referring to footnote 1 in the top image caption, it links to the short footnote, which links to the full citation, so everything looks fine and I see no error here. Mathglot (talk) 05:28, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

There is something odd going on. I do not see the problem on my laptop, but see the screenshot to the side which I just took on my phone, which I think is up to date Android/Chrome. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

That error message is not caused by {{sfn}} but rather is caused by User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js at User:Aymatth2/common.js#L-1 in your common.js page. Remove that line from your common.js and then refresh the page in the screen-cap. The error message should go away. If it does, try a different harv error script or report the error to Editor Ucucha.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC).

That did it. Duh. Thanks. Aymatth2 (talk) 21:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Follow up: I wonder if the problem described above is the same problem that is described at phab:T348928 where MediaWiki is incorrectly url-encoding the short-form link when it should be anchor-encoding the link:

{{urlencode:CITEREFBernard_Safran:_Paintings_–_safran-arts}} → CITEREFBernard_Safran%3A_Paintings_%E2%80%93_safran-arts

{{anchorencode:CITEREFBernard_Safran:_Paintings_–_safran-arts}} → CITEREFBernard_Safran:_Paintings_–_safran-arts

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Mobile view sees a citation error; desktop view sees no problem. Eh???

It gets worse. Since when has é been a "special character"? (A rhetorical question! before someone comes back with "1247" .) At Lunar month, citation 8 gets an error

• Chapront-Touzé & Chapront (1988). Harv error: link from CITEREFChapront-Touz%C3%A9Chapront1988 doesn't point to any citation

but the cited source is certainly there. Exactly the same article read on desktop view sees no problem and ^[8] resolves as expected. It does not compute, Captain. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 14:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly the issue described (and apparently ignored) at phab:T348928.

'é' (U+00E9: Latin small letter e with acute) is not a 'special character' per se, but is a multibyte character. When rendering the html for the different views, MediaWiki differently encodes fragment wikilinks: anchor encoding for desktop view, uri encoding for mobile view. This is not something that can be fixed here.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Even though it can't be fixed here, I thought it worth putting it on the record for future archive searches. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

How to use it for Proceedings

Proceedings are collection of works published by academic institutions, museums, etc. They usually have one or more high-profil scholars as editors, who may or may not participate with their own work included into collection. Other authors, whose number can vary (few to few dozens), write a chapter with a unique title each (sometimes one author can contribute two or more chapters on different subject) on different, but subjects related to the field, say, history of some heretical order. So, now we have a book as a collection of chapters written by different authors, chapters have unique titles, collection is edited by one or more persons who contributed or not something. So, this is not the same thing as multiple authors of one paper in journal.

Is it possible to cite such book with sfn, and if so, how?
Imagine that you need to use few chapters in your wiki article but they should be used with separate footnote - every chapter has its title and writer, and the only common thing is the main title of the collection, date of publishing and an editor(s).

Example of one such Proceedings can be observed here: Zbornik radova - it is a first 11 pages with usual information and most importantly you can check Content ౪ Santa ౪^99° 14:07, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps like this:

* {{cite book |editor-last=Šanjek |editor-first=Franjo |date=2005 |title=Fenomen "Krstjani" u Srednjovjekovnoj Bosni i Humu: Zbornik Radova |location=Sarajevo |publisher=Institut za istoriju u Sarajevu |isbn=((9985-9642-5-2)) |language=hr}}
** {{harvc |last=Ančić |first=Mladen |c=Bosanska Banovina i Njezino Okruženje u Prvoj Polovici 13. Stoljeća |in=Šanjek |year=2005 |pages=11–26}}
** {{harvc |last=Neralić |first=Jadranka |c=Srednjovjekovna Bosna u Diplomatičkim Spisima Rimske Kurije |in=Šanjek |year=2005 |pages=371–386}}
** {{harvc |last=Šanjek |first=Franjo  |c=Papa Inocent III. (1198.-1216.) i Bosansko-Humski Krstjani |in=Šanjek |year=2005 |pages=425–440 |id={{sfnref|Šanjek in Šanjek|2005}}}}

The above goes in §Bibliography. The short form references (in this example {{harvnb}} because simpler) point to the {{harvc}} templates which, in turn, point to the {{cite book}} template. Here are the {{harvnb}} templates:

{{harvnb|Ančić|2005|p=20}} → Ančić 2005, p. 20

{{harvnb|Neralić|2005|p=380}} → Neralić 2005, p. 380

{{harvnb|Šanjek|2005|p=430|ref={{sfnref|Šanjek in Šanjek|2005}}}} → Šanjek 2005, p. 430

and here is the §Bibliography section:

• Šanjek, Franjo, ed. (2005). Fenomen "Krstjani" u Srednjovjekovnoj Bosni i Humu: Zbornik Radova (in Croatian). Sarajevo: Institut za istoriju u Sarajevu. ISBN 9985-9642-5-2.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: ignored ISBN errors (link)
  • Ančić, Mladen. "Bosanska Banovina i Njezino Okruženje u Prvoj Polovici 13. Stoljeća". In Šanjek (2005), pp. 11–26.
  • Neralić, Jadranka. "Srednjovjekovna Bosna u Diplomatičkim Spisima Rimske Kurije". In Šanjek (2005), pp. 371–386.
  • Šanjek, Franjo. "Papa Inocent III. (1198.-1216.) i Bosansko-Humski Krstjani". In Šanjek (2005), pp. 425–440.

Note the unique construction of the Šanjek {{harvnb}} and {{harvc}} templates; this to avoid circular or improper links between the templates – {{cite book}} uses CITEREFŠanjek2005 so {{harvc}} must not also use that CITREF id.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:28, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, this looks more than promising, I am going to try how it works. @Trappist the monk, I really appreciate this, as it was always huge problem for me - I am using that kind of literature constantly (Proceedings, Yearbooks, Contributions, Collections, and similar) and it gets tiresome using RefToolbar (reflist with <ref> markup) in this case. Thanks. ౪ Santa ౪^99° 17:19, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

It works like a charm @Trappist the monk, and I thank you again so much, however, is there a way to get just a footnote number inline like "[56]", which sends → "Ančić 2005, p. 20" in References-reflist, and from there "Ančić 2005, p. 20" → Biblio. "Ančić, Mladen. "Bosanska Banovina i Njezino Okruženje u Prvoj Polovici 13. Stoljeća". In Šanjek (2005), pp. 11–26."? I just replaced "harvnb" with "sfn" and it works perfectly - thank you. --౪ Santa ౪^99° 17:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Issue with ps and pp being used together

There seems to be an issue with {{sfn}} when using the |ps and |pp parameters together. By default, in using both, you end up with two sentences without a space between them (see the Lindskoog example below). Some editors have tried to fix this by adding an extra |loc={{sp}} parameter, but then this gives you a comma you probably didn't intend. The comma either trails at the end of a sentence when you don't have a |ps parameter (pp. 18–19 example), or else separates two sentences when you do, instead of them being separated by a period (Gormley).

Also, when you have two {{sfn}} templates with the same |pp parameter but different |ps parameters, the engine renders them as the same citation, so the version with the |ps becomes unreadable (see the James Russell example).

Markup	Renders as
The book<ref>{{cite book|title=The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe|p=24|year=1950|last=Lewis|first=C. S.}}</ref> explores{{sfn|Lewis|1950|pp=18–19|loc={{sp}}}} the themes of lions,{{sfn|Lewis|1950|pp=18–19|loc={{sp}}|ps=This is explored further by James Russell.}} witches{{sfn|Lewis|1950|pp=32–33|ps=This is explored further by Kathryn Lindskoog.}} and wardrobes.{{sfn|Lewis|1950|pp=64–66|loc={{sp}}|ps=This is explored further by Beatrice Gormley.}} == Notes == {{reflist-talk}}	The book explores the themes of lions, witches and wardrobes. Notes References

I would suggest that the preferred rendering should be:

1. Lewis 1950, pp. 18–19.
2. Lewis 1950, pp. 18–19. This is explored further by James Russell.
3. Lewis 1950, pp. 32–33. This is explored further by Kathryn Lindskoog.
4. Lewis 1950, pp. 64–66. This is explored further by Beatrice Gormley.

It Is Me Here (talk) 16:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Like |postscript= in the cs1|2 templates, the purpose of |ps= and |postscript= in {{sfn}} and related templates is to control the rendering of terminal punctuation; a single character: a dot, a comma, a semicolon, etc.

You would be better served to write:

...explores{{sfn|Lewis|1950|pp=18–19}}...lions,<ref>{{harvnb|Lewis|1950|pp=18–19|ps=.}} This is explored further by James Russell.</ref>...

...explores...lions,...

References

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Timestamp parameter for videos

@Trappist the monk: Would it be possible to add a parameter to the template which functions similarly to |p=, but instead marks a timestamp to make it easier to use Template:Cite AV media as reference? Antiquistik (talk) 17:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

You can use |loc= instead of |p=, it's for in-source location when |p= and |pp= are inappropriate. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:55, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Or the obvious parameters |time= or |minutes=. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused unlike |loc=, which is available and used for this purpose, |time= and |minutes= don't work with {{sfn}} -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:52, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Confusion reigns. This is the talk page for {{sfn}} however the OP asked about {{Cite AV media}}. ActivelyDisinterested replied in the spirit of SFN whereas Michael answered correctly for AV media, which is why AD can't find the parameters in SFN! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah I see the confusion, I took Would it be possible to add a parameter to the template as meaning this template, and that the OP meant Cite AV Media as reference to mean the cite that SFN is linking to. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The OP wanted to do short references to particular timestamps in a video cited with {{Cite AV media}}, so |loc= is indeed the answer. Kanguole 13:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Cite court

Can this be used with {{Cite court}}?--SRuizR 20:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes you just have to setup the |ref= field as described in the Template:Cite court documentation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't see that. Thanks.--SRuizR 21:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Module talk:Footnotes § loc, at

 You are invited to join the discussion at Module talk:Footnotes § loc, at. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Error when using "ps" parameter and no "ps" for the same page

Hello, in Madam La Compt there is the following message: "Cite error: The named reference "FOOTNOTEMcDermott1949128" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page)."

There are some {{sfn|McDermott|1949|p=128}} and one {{sfn|McDermott|1949|p=128|ps=. Note 100.}}

Do you know how I can get rid of the error? Thanks so much!–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

As a short-term solution I added another copy of the source and |ref={{harvid|McDermott (note)|1958}}</nowki> and <nowiki>{{sfn|McDermott (note)|1949|p=128}}–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

You can express what you're after with {{sfn|McDermott|1949|p=128|loc=Note 100}}. Kanguole 15:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks, Kanguole!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@CaroleHenson: This is a misuse of |ps=, and is explicitly cautioned against at Template:Sfn#Adding additional comments or quotes. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:14, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

As fixed by Kanguole and communicated here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

work with Template:Cite Q?

one conversation in one place

Hello: Could someone please modify either template:cite Q or template:sfn so they work properly together by default? See recent edits to Gwendolyn Grant (activist) for examples of the problem. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 21:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Sfn templates work by matching to the details in the source text of the cite (kind of that's just the simple way of putting it), as Cite Q has no author or year details in source text a false positive error will always occur. It's an issue that has been raised on the Cite Q template talkpage a few times. Until it is fixed you can add dummy duplicates of the missing text details to the cite, or use {{sfn whitelist}} to suppress the false positive error messages. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:21, 5 July 2024 (UTC) Thanks. I've tried assigning "CNN Newsource" to different properties in Wikidata, so far without suppressing "{{cite journal}}: |author= has generic name (help)" from: CNN Newsource (24 February 2021). "Urban League of Greater Kansas City unveils social justice bus". KMIZ. Wikidata Q126365824. {{cite journal}}: |author= has generic name (help) Can {{tl|sfn whitelist}} suppress this complaint? If so, how? (I've tried a couple of things, so far without success.) Thanks again, DavidMCEddy (talk) 23:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC) No, sfn whitelist is unrelated; it suppresses the harv linking errors that you always get with sfn+cite Q. Your problem is badly formatted metadata that squeezes the information from the citation into the wrong parameters. The citation should probably have publisher=KMIZ and agency=CNN Newsource. I suspect there is a mismatch between how wikidata represents reference metadata and how the citation templates expect to see it, causing cite Q to try to hammer round pegs into square holes. I don't know enough about how cite Q works to persuade it to format the citation correctly. Why not just use {{cite news}} and fill in the metadata locally? —David Eppstein (talk) 00:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Why is this discussion happening in twop places. Don't do that. Continue at Template talk:Cite Q.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Why is this not working?

I have this

{{cite book|first1=Fred |last1=Von Bernewitz |first2=Grant |last2=Geissman |title=Tales of Terror: The EC Companion |publisher=[[Gemstone Publishing]] and [[Fantagraphics Books]] |location= [[Timonium, Maryland]], and [[Seattle, Washington]] |date=2000 |isbn=9781560974031 |ref={{SfnRef|Von Bernewitz |Geissman |2000}} }}

, and this

{{SfnRef|Von Bernewitz |Geissman |2000}}

Why is this giving me code errors?Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 21:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

The second instance of SfnRef is not the correct template to use, it should just be Sfn. The first instance seems like it should work to creat an anchor that the Sfn template can link to, but I also think it is unnecessary. The cite book template should be able to create the template by itself because there is nothing unusual about the citation. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Where? Are you getting errors because you mistakenly used {{sfnref}} when you should have used {{sfn}}?

In your examples, the {{cite book}} template emits a CS1 maint: ref duplicates default message because {{SfnRef|Von Bernewitz |Geissman |2000}} produces exactly the same CITEREF anchor ID as the {{cite book}} template does for itself. The {{cite book}} template should be rewritten:

{{cite book|first1=Fred |last1=Von Bernewitz |first2=Grant |last2=Geissman |title=Tales of Terror: The EC Companion |publisher=[[Gemstone Publishing]] and [[Fantagraphics Books]] |location= [[Timonium, Maryland]], and [[Seattle, Washington]] |date=2000 |isbn={{format ISBN|9781560974031}}}}

Von Bernewitz, Fred; Geissman, Grant (2000). Tales of Terror: The EC Companion. Timonium, Maryland, and Seattle, Washington: Gemstone Publishing and Fantagraphics Books. ISBN 978-1-56097-403-1.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I didn't know that judging based on the documentation, I thought I had to use SfnRef because there's more than one author. But that helps me out a lot. thank you.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 00:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 29 July 2024

Description of suggested change: Shouldn't the See Also example text be an un-ordered list?

Diff:

−

==See also== [[Ipso facto]]

+

==See also== *[[Ipso facto]]

Dough34 (talk) 21:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Not done. The template documentation is not protected. If you know how to make the template documentation better, please do so.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

References

What to do with hyphenated, "non-Latin" surname?

I'm having an error pop up due to a hyphenated surname... How can I correct this? Thanks. ~ HAL333 16:46, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Where? Always give real life examples of problems so that we don't have to hunt for whatever it is that you are talking about.

If this is about this reference (permalink), that has nothing to do with {{sfn}}. Where did you get the idea that it did?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

This has to do with the cite templates rather than {{sfn}}, but the solution is to use the plain hyphen-minus (U+002D) instead of U+2010. Kanguole 17:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the imbecility. Thanks! ~ HAL333 17:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Using undated, single author work

Is this the correct template to use for an undated, single-author work? If not, which template do I use? There's an issue where using the template with "n.d." for not dated lists that as a second author. The other issue is that multiple different sources from the same author are used.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:37, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you sure? Always good to give real life examples when something that you think should work doesn't. I think it works so I have contrived a test (using {{harvp}} for clarity and simplicity; {{sfnp}} renders the same format):

{{harvp|Green|n.d.}} → Green (n.d.)

and the target:

{{cite book |title=Title |last=Green |first=EB |date=n.d.}}

Green, EB (n.d.). Title.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, let me provide an examples from the page where I'm having the issue (Viking metal)

{{harvp|Rivadavia|n.d.(a)}} → Rivadavia & n.d.(a)

{{harvp|Rivadavia|n.d.(b)}} → Rivadavia & n.d.(b)

<ref>{{harvp|Huey|n.d.(a)}}; {{harvp|von Helden|2010|p=257}}</ref> →

Targets:

{{cite web |ref={{SfnRef|Rivadavia|n.d.(a)}} |first=Eduardo |last=Rivadavia |url=http://www.allmusic.com/album/stronger-than-evil-mw0000997320 |title=Stronger Than Evil |website=AllMusic |access-date=August 21, 2015 }}

{{cite web |ref={{SfnRef|Rivadavia|n.d.(b)}} |first=Eduardo |last=Rivadavia |url=http://www.allmusic.com/album/blood-fire-death-mw0000171761 |title=Blood Fire Death |website=AllMusic |access-date=March 27, 2008 }}

{{cite web |ref={{SfnRef|Huey|n.d.(a)}} |last=Huey |first=Steve |url=http://www.allmusic.com/album/marching-out-mw0000650446 |title=Marching Out |website=AllMusic |access-date=August 21, 2015 }}

{{cite book |last=von Helden |first=Imke |year=2010 |editor-last=Scott |editor-first=Niall W.R. |url=http://www.inter-disciplinary.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/mmp1ever1290310.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20141028202550/http://www.inter-disciplinary.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/mmp1ever1290310.pdf |url-status=dead |archive-date=2014-10-28 |chapter=Barbarians and Literature: Viking Metal and its Links to Old Norse Mythology |title=The Metal Void |pages=257–263 |location=Oxford |isbn=978-1-904710-87-5 }} →

• Rivadavia, Eduardo. "Stronger Than Evil". AllMusic. Retrieved August 21, 2015.
• Rivadavia, Eduardo. "Blood Fire Death". AllMusic. Retrieved March 27, 2008.
• Huey, Steve. "Marching Out". AllMusic. Retrieved August 21, 2015.
• von Helden, Imke (2010). "Barbarians and Literature: Viking Metal and its Links to Old Norse Mythology". In Scott, Niall W.R. (ed.). The Metal Void (PDF). Oxford. pp. 257–263. ISBN 978-1-904710-87-5. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2014-10-28.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove the parentheses from n.d.(a). {{sfn}} expects the CITEREF disambiguation letter in the same format for n.d. that it expects for a numerical year: 2024a so n.d.a.

Fixed your von Helden reference; its a book not a journal.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:55, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I'd been trying to discover the solution for awhile! (and I already fixed von Helden)--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Making whitelisting simpler and more efficient

 You are invited to join the discussion at Module talk:Footnotes § Making whitelisting simpler and more efficient. — hike395 (talk) 17:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)