- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) feminist (talk) 03:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Bill Latto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No significant coverage about single-season coach of non-notable team, fails WP:NCOLLATH. Reywas92Talk 05:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Reywas92Talk 05:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Engr. Smitty Werben 05:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of West Virginia-related deletion discussions. Engr. Smitty Werben 05:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. Doing my best to do some quick searches before leaving on vacation. No time to weigh or dig deeper, but here are a few pieces: [1], [2], [3]. Cbl62 (talk) 07:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, easily meets GNG, per the sources listed above by Cbl62 and this, this, this, this, this, this, and multiple other pieces on Newspapers.com.
I'll do an expansion of the article soon.Also, Reywas92, what do you mean by "coach of non-notable team"? BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:37, 8 December 2021 (UTC) (Cbl62 beat me to it, so I crossed out my sentence about expanding the article. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC))- All there is about this non-notable football team is a paragraph at Alderson_Broaddus_University#Athletics. Why the heck would its coaches be assumed to be notable? [4] Passing routine death notice, absolutely not sigcov. [5] Passing description in local paper about college play, not sigcov. [6] Brief description in local paper about college play, not sigcov. [7] Routine passing notice of becoming track coach, not sigcov. [8] Passing notice about being track coach, not sigcov. [9] Passing notice of being college team captain, not sigcov. What a massive failure of both WP:NCOLLATH and GNG still. Newspapers in the 1920s wrote about local news a bit differently than you may find now, but no way in hell would a current/recent player or coach in a low division with this sort of brief mentions pass NSPORT either. Reywas92Talk 03:20, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Just because a program doesn't currently have an article does not mean they are non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- It's a decent suggestion that we shouldn't be bulk-producing articles for its coaches! Reywas92Talk 16:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with that, but I still stand by my view that Latto meets the notability criteria. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- It's a decent suggestion that we shouldn't be bulk-producing articles for its coaches! Reywas92Talk 16:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Just because a program doesn't currently have an article does not mean they are non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- All there is about this non-notable football team is a paragraph at Alderson_Broaddus_University#Athletics. Why the heck would its coaches be assumed to be notable? [4] Passing routine death notice, absolutely not sigcov. [5] Passing description in local paper about college play, not sigcov. [6] Brief description in local paper about college play, not sigcov. [7] Routine passing notice of becoming track coach, not sigcov. [8] Passing notice about being track coach, not sigcov. [9] Passing notice of being college team captain, not sigcov. What a massive failure of both WP:NCOLLATH and GNG still. Newspapers in the 1920s wrote about local news a bit differently than you may find now, but no way in hell would a current/recent player or coach in a low division with this sort of brief mentions pass NSPORT either. Reywas92Talk 03:20, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Delete. Agreed with Reywas that the sources above are not sufficient to meet SIGCOV. JoelleJay (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- Do you really contend that coverage such as this (cited above) does not constitute SIGCOV? Cbl62 (talk) 18:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm for some reason I had assumed Reywas had covered all the suggested sources in their rebuttal, so I'd only opened those, but now I see they only discussed the ones introduced by BF. I agree that that one is likely SIGCOV (my hesitation is from not knowing whether it's independent). I'll strike my !vote for now... JoelleJay (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- @JoelleJay: Much respect for your positions generally. Thanks for keeping an open mind. Cbl62 (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- That's one, GNG requires multiple. This still doesn't pass our notability standards, and I think the local news about the WP:1E of being hired to coach for one season is poor evidence of notability. Reywas92Talk 21:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm for some reason I had assumed Reywas had covered all the suggested sources in their rebuttal, so I'd only opened those, but now I see they only discussed the ones introduced by BF. I agree that that one is likely SIGCOV (my hesitation is from not knowing whether it's independent). I'll strike my !vote for now... JoelleJay (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Do you really contend that coverage such as this (cited above) does not constitute SIGCOV? Cbl62 (talk) 18:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Notable per WP:GNG. His one year as head football coach at Broaddus is just a small part of Latto's story. He was one of the best football players ever produced by Bethany College, the only player to be a two-time captain, and was named to their all-time football team in 1961. He also served for many years as Bethany's athletic director, track coach, tennis coach, and freshman football coach. I have expanded the article to reflect this broader scope and to add sources supporting same. Cbl62 (talk) 18:40, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, one of the best players at a DIII school of 650 students, nice job lowering the bar, still doesn't meet WP:NCOLLATH. Very few college track coaches are notable, very few college tennis coaches are notable, very few college freshman football coaches are notable, very few college athletic directors are notable. I mean, when your school is that small it makes sense to wear multiple hats, but that doesn't add up to notability. Guest of honor at a party at his in-laws' house? These sources aren't significant coverage, what a joke. Reywas92Talk 20:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Latto does not need to meet NCOLLATH, for he appears to meet GNG IMO. Also, do you really think articles such as this are not significant? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, one of the best players at a DIII school of 650 students, nice job lowering the bar, still doesn't meet WP:NCOLLATH. Very few college track coaches are notable, very few college tennis coaches are notable, very few college freshman football coaches are notable, very few college athletic directors are notable. I mean, when your school is that small it makes sense to wear multiple hats, but that doesn't add up to notability. Guest of honor at a party at his in-laws' house? These sources aren't significant coverage, what a joke. Reywas92Talk 20:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Reywas: No need to be snide and nasty. It's not the way to persuade folks. Nobody contended that he meets NCOLLATH. And nobody contended that the piece about the party was SIGCOV. You are shooting at red herrings here. But while were on the subject, do you actually contend that this is not SIGCOV? Cbl62 (talk) 20:48, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- No, not really. It's a local blurb describing who would be coach at the nearby junior college. Big whoop. Local small-town newspapers, especially back in 1922, had plenty of descriptions of people in the community, but I don't see that as enough to have an article about someone who coached a non-baccalaureate school's team for one season. I'd say it's WP:1E. The red herring is stuff like "the only player to be a two-time captain" as if this stat (which leaves out "as of 1923" – how old was their team even, how many students did they have then?) is notable for Wikipedia. Mention him in an article about the football team, without the refbomb trivialities. Reywas92Talk 21:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Strongly suggest you have another read-through of WP:SIGCOV. The article at issue discusses Latto "directly and in detail," and is clearly "more than a trivial mention." Most of your comments (including "what a joke") appear to be more along the lines of WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than analysis based on the guidelines. Cbl62 (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- So that's one, not multiple sources, what's the second of substance? GNG is still not met with that. Yes, it's a joke to suggest that "He was one of the best football players ever produced by Bethany College, the only player to be a two-time captain, and was named to their all-time football team in 1961" is relevant to his notability, and a joke to suggest that "He also served for many years as Bethany's athletic director, track coach, tennis coach, and freshman football coach." is relevant to notability. There are how many hundreds and hundreds of colleges and universities with how many tens of thousands of people (in just the US) who have been coaches or star players over the last century? Reywas92Talk 21:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It's clear we don't (and probably won't) see eye to eye, but respectfully your suggestion that contrary arguments are "a joke" don't help to make friends or, more importantly, advance your case. As for SIGCOV, it sounds like you now, reluctantly, agree that (1) this is SIGCOV. Of course, sources are more difficult to find for individuals who lived entirely in the pre-Internet era. Though not as strong as the first piece, other examples of coverage that discuss Latto "directly and in detail," with "more than a trivial mention", include (2) "Uhrichsville Man Honored At Bethany For Football Feats" (four paragraphs devoted to details of Latto's life), (3) "W. T. Latto" (extensive discussion of biographical details), and even (4) "Latto at Bethany" and (5) "Latto Leaves Bethany Place" (each having two full paragraphs discussing Latto's biographical details). Cbl62 (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- The obituary (3), right next to those in the paper of Hiram Long, John Adams, and Karl Boyer, was almost certainly submitted by his family and is not independent coverage. 4 and 5 are far too short to be significant. 2 is a routine local mention about "A Ulrichsville resident", hardly significant (especially when each paragraph is a single sentence). Seems to me being in the pre-internet era made it easier to find sources here – you probably wouldn't find that sort of mention in the paper about someone who got a letter in the mail! Reywas92Talk 22:07, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Clearly, we are not going to agree, but your efforts to discount SIGCOV that you don't like are a major stretch. As for 2, your argument that a headline mentioning the city in which a person lives renders the SIGCOV contained therein null and void is not policy-based; it's more "IDONTLIKEIT". That article clearly discusses Latto "directly and in detail," as required by the SIGCOV. As for 3, the article cites two separate obituaries, each of which has distinct content, undermining your unsupported speculation that the piece was "almost certainly submitted to the family" -- why would the family submit different obituaries to different newspapers? That argument just doesn't pass the smell test. As for 4 and 5, two full paragraphs of biographical details is not "too short" -- these are more than "trivial mentions", and as you should know, efforts to quantify the number of sentences or words required to constitute SIGCOV have been rejected by the community. Cbl62 (talk) 22:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It's clear we don't (and probably won't) see eye to eye, but respectfully your suggestion that contrary arguments are "a joke" don't help to make friends or, more importantly, advance your case. As for SIGCOV, it sounds like you now, reluctantly, agree that (1) this is SIGCOV. Of course, sources are more difficult to find for individuals who lived entirely in the pre-Internet era. Though not as strong as the first piece, other examples of coverage that discuss Latto "directly and in detail," with "more than a trivial mention", include (2) "Uhrichsville Man Honored At Bethany For Football Feats" (four paragraphs devoted to details of Latto's life), (3) "W. T. Latto" (extensive discussion of biographical details), and even (4) "Latto at Bethany" and (5) "Latto Leaves Bethany Place" (each having two full paragraphs discussing Latto's biographical details). Cbl62 (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Strongly suggest you have another read-through of WP:SIGCOV. The article at issue discusses Latto "directly and in detail," and is clearly "more than a trivial mention." Most of your comments (including "what a joke") appear to be more along the lines of WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than analysis based on the guidelines. Cbl62 (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Reywas: No need to be snide and nasty. It's not the way to persuade folks. Nobody contended that he meets NCOLLATH. And nobody contended that the piece about the party was SIGCOV. You are shooting at red herrings here. But while were on the subject, do you actually contend that this is not SIGCOV? Cbl62 (talk) 20:48, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per Cbl62. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.