Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/News and notes

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• The destubbing contest sounds like a great idea... Has the WMF expressed interest in providing grants for contests in the way it did for the Women in Red World Contest? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 18:31, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
  • The destubbing contest is indeed a great idea. It is also a low-key contest with some weekly prizes of £10 gift certificates at Amazon totaling £250 (c.$308) thru August 1. I imagine the source of the prizes is Wikimedia UK or the WMF. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:16, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• "well-informed Ukraininans" from Ukrainian propaganda machine is no better than Russian propaganda machine. The country overrun by a bunch of neoNazis and racists cannot be source of neutral information. I am not talking about conflicts over Donbas or Crimea. I am talking about the overall policy of rewriting the history of their land and sowing discord between ethnicities and religious faiths. I am talking about neonazis openly throwing Hitler Salute and whitewashing their WWII murderers. The activities of the government which restored the employment of an ambassador to Germany caught pants off with antisemitic and other racist texts in the social media and celebrating his birthday with the cake in the shape of the book titled "My Struggle" must be watched very closely in Wikipedia for WP:COI. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:28, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, that's a bleak point of view. Let's see what happens first, with our eyes wide open, before we leap to accusations of Neo-Nazism and anti-semiticism. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

It is already happening for years, massively, just nobody cares.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:25, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Let me remark for the context that NickK is one of the few really constructive editors in the topic area, which features mostly driveby editors and editors with the agenda (not necessarily pro-Ukrainian, could be anything).--Ymblanter (talk) 06:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Just to clarify, it was not the government who restored employment of that diplomat but a court of appeal. Here is the comment from the MFA (Ukrainian version is more detailed): the government still wants to fire him, but the court made them restore his employment. Labor Code of Ukraine is from 1971, so firing people is tricky in Ukraine, but that's not MFA's fault — NickK (talk) 23:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh please, Labor code from 1971? you are kidding me! In the country so proud of decommunization? "Ostatechne proschewaj", my ass. The UA court system is completely dysfunctional when it comes to violations of human rights or making big circles around proven murderers who happen to be "activists". Every dissent is quickly labelled as Russia's/Putin's hand. Corruption is rampant. "Bloody Yanykovych"s times is the golden age compared to what's going on there now. Current clown's government is a hostage of "activists", who have more arms on their hands than the regular army and therefore feel nonpunishable. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it would be fair to say that the Ukrainian court system is dysfunctional, period. It is not pro-Russian or anti-Yanukovych, it is dysfonctional at least since Wikipedia exists. It is sad, but we are not working with these courts and are not interested in it — NickK (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• I was taken aback when I first saw the news that Wikimedia Ukraine was partnering with the Ukrainian government on such a massive scale. The Russian state media can go to hell, but I am worried about the consequences for NPOV. The outward and combative focus of this venture, and the fact that it so heavily involves the Foreign Ministry, makes it seem very much like a propaganda operation. I think it would be much better if the the Ukrainian government instead directed an effort through the Ministry of Culture, publishing photographs of cultural events and historical sites, or documents about artists and folk cultures under free licenses that we can use. If China had announced a similar campaign we would have lost our minds by now. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:24, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Actually, some time ago we has a really big fuss when Israelis launched a similar wikipedia campaign to counter the bias in the you know which conflict. Although I do not remember whether it was government-based or just a a wikiactivism. Staszek Lem (talk)
  • @Indy beetle: Wikimedia Ukraine already works with the Ministry of Culture, notably on Wiki Loves Monuments (e.g. here). This collaboration was very active two governments ago, the previous Minister of Culture was less interested, and there is no Minister of Culture at the moment (lost in reorganisation). WMUA is also working on release of all government websites under the free license (the Ministry of Culture is one of the few that have not done this move yet) and would be obviously interested in getting materials from the Ministry of Culture under a free license — NickK (talk) 23:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
• The Ukrainian MFA already canvassed people to Sukhoi Su-25 in 2014 ([1]) and launched a not-so-veiled accusation against Wikipedia editors, depicting them as Russian agents. I'm not sure this is really a friendly and policy-abiding party that we want onboard. --MarioGom (talk) 14:17, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

• The press release in Ukrainian was not corrected ([2]). I assume the softer language is only directed to the international audience at English Wikipedia. --MarioGom (talk) 15:04, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
• Why do we devote an entire paragraph to criticism of the Internet Archive's National Emergency Library, but don't give any space at all to the Internet Archive's POV, for example https://blog.archive.org/2020/03/30/internet-archive-responds-why-we-released-the-national-emergency-library/. Isn't the Internet Archive supposed to be our ally? At the very least our reporting about it should be neutral and give space to both sides. Kaldari (talk) 23:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks for this. The above blog certainly gives a more well-rounded view of the controversy. I believe the author's view was that announcing the availability of the books through the Internet Archive, gave one side of the story, and the final paragraph gave another side, but as I said, the blog makes the whole thing more well-rounded. Finding balance, of course, is never easy. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 23:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Hi Kaldari, I built the article from various articles submitted at our suggestions page. I included that section to show that not everyone was happy with the internet archive, and exactly because I think we, as Wikipedians generally only look at this from one side, without considering the people who may disapprove. My thinking was that most people already understand the IA's operating principals, and thus it was more important to present the other side than. I would also add that I did not see that post, and could certainly have included it. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:08, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
    • @Eddie891: Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. Kaldari (talk) 00:23, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• Very interesting to read about the Ukrainian campaign right after seeing this rename request. Ivanchuk, a Ukrainian chess grandmaster, formerly a candidate for World Champion, suddenly decided that English Wikipedia should be transliterating his name the Ukrainian way rather than the Russian way. When it was pointed out that our usual English-language sources would be a snag, he went to FIDE (the World Chess Federation) and had them fix their listing for him. Of course other sources, such as the chess press, cannot be immediately brought around, but this was sufficient for editors to come to a consensus to change the name of the article about him. Ivanchuk is very well known in chess and I have to wonder if we are going to see more of this kind of thing. Bruce leverett (talk) 00:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• To be clear, I welcomed the statement re. Ukraine because the original statement said that they would be working with the Ukrainian WMF chapter, and I trust WMF chapters to guard the integrity of the project. I spent a long time clearing out and blacklisting Russian fake news and propaganda sites, mostly from articles about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea. Several articles presented the fiction of a spontaneous grassroots uprising against Ukrainan nationalist oppression of Russophones in Donbass - a narrative strongly contradicted by independent sources. The GRU invests a lot in propaganda, and I would be astounded if there were not active Russian paid agents editing those articles. If WMF Ukraine can ensure that the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs follows our policies, then I do indeed see this as a net positive for the project. Ukraine is trying to move from kleptocratic oligarchy to Western democracy, and deserves all the support we can offer. Guy (help!) 19:41, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• Trying to move? YOu must be kidding. Probably listening to Ukrainian propaganda too much. Since 2014 corruption increased enormously. New president, as it always happened, promised to fight corruption, but he doesn't. The most egregious case is making dirty money on military supplies. Mass evidence collected, but no move. I guess that's why there is still shooting in Donbas: big money involved. Russia backed off long time ago when their idea of "Neo-Novorossia" sizzled. Of course Russia never gives Crimea back, but Donbas could have been easily reintegrated back under minimal political concessions. But Ukrainian nazis think that Poles, Russians, Hungarians who live in Ukraine, are Untermensch (but this doesnt prevent ukro Gastarbeiter in millions. Due to coronavirus Polish argiculture is in grave danger due to lack of cheap wetback workforce). Ukrainian WMF chapter is obviously just the same overrun by ukronazis, if you read ukrainian wikipedia , which glorifies killers and robbers. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• • Ukrainan nationalist oppression of Russophones - fake news? oh really? you can speak russian as long as you support nazionalist agenda. But say a word against nazis in Russian, you will quickly get a fist into your face and the defense in court is that they were fighting Putin's agent. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

    This is really fake news. You can see from my page that I am a native speaker of Russian, I support neither far-right nor radical pro-Russian groups (like most Ukrainians) and I got a fist into my face from neither. As a board member of the Ukrainian chapter, I find your label of a 'ukronazi' insulting — NickK (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Staszek Lem: - you should be very careful about personal attacks and even about BLP violations. Please do not call people "ukronazis," "wetbacks", "Untermensch", and, smearing an entire nation "neoNazis and racists ". In any case you seem to be proving all the Ukrainian complaints about propaganda. Please drop the stick or just avoid this page if you can't. Liz gave you a polite warning early on. I tend to be more direct. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:20, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

When I say ukronazis, I mean ukronazis, not the entire ukrainian nation. When I say wetbacks I mean people toiling for a dime, and it is not an insult for ukrainians, but for Poland, which takes an advantage of the rampant poverty in the neighboring country. When I wrote unermensch, I was presenting the worldview of ukronazis on non-ethnic citizens of ukraine, and so on. BLP, personal attacks? seriously? You are welcome to file a complaint. In any case, I am taking your advice and moving away from this subject. BTW, FYI, just in case, I am not editing Ukraine-related topics due to my COI: I hate what is going on in Ukraine now. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• • As I mentioned elsewhere, I experience harassment from Ukrainian users on a daily basis. The only reason for this harassment seems to be that I state that my mothertongue is Russian. I expect this harassment to increase in May due to this propaganda campaign.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:23, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• I spent a long time clearing out and blacklisting Russian fake news and propaganda sites - that's what we all are doing here: keeping Wikipedia neutral. The engagement of a whole government is as clear WP:COI is it can be, whatever noble motives are declared. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:59, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
• I personally don't think you can really call them that, as in fact that isn't correct, Ukraine is not associated with this type of behaviour, this broken ideology. Rawsar (talk) 18:31, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
• One of the best ways to ensure NPOV is to have an environment where different points of view are well represented. Ukrainian content and editors have been grossly underrepresented on the wiki, I see this initiative as something that will encourage people interested in this subject to participate more. Berehinia (talk) 21:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)