Talk:Saladin

Origin of the Saladin

Even though most of the resources say that Saladin was Kurdish, there are still some other resources that says he was Arabic or Turkish. So there is no definite origin but Wikipedia (well, in some versions of this page other possible origins are included too) completely ignores that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.253.112.56 (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The opinion of nationalist Turks and Arabs does not matter. Saladin's origin is documented very well and no discussion is possible about his Kurdish origins; which is a fact. YOu can have an opinion about that fact, but it won't make him, or the Ayyubid dynasty as a whole, non-Kurdish. I am glad this article is protected because Turkish nationalists have editted a lot of articles in an attempt to Turkify history, people, and things that aren't and never were Turkish. It's pathetic.

Have a nice day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.122.63 (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

In book Fawed Al Jalieyah Fi Faraed Al Naseriah (In Arabic: الفوائد الجلیه فی الفرائد الناصریة) : [Original manuscript is in the british museum, Document number 557] Which is the collection of letters and poems of Sladin's nephew the Ayoubite King Al Malek Nasser Bin Malek Mo'azam Isa Bin Malek Adel Bin Ayoub writen by his son Majd al Din Abu Mohammed Known by title Almalek Alamjad Al ayoubi, He Rejects the Affiliation to Kurds which being calimed even in their time, saying:

"

Ibn Athir the scholar says: Najm Aldin Ayoub (Saladin's Grandfather) is originaly from Duwain in Azerbijan, His origins is from Kurdish tribe Rawadyeh, which is the most honorable Kurdish tribe , Now this is what is widespread among many people, and I didn't hear any of our family elders that were in my time to admit this [Kurdish root])

He continues :

I asked the Mola Al Malek Amjad Taqi Al Din Abal Fadhl Al Abas Bin Soltan Malik Al Adil (Ayoubite king and Sladin's nephew) Did you hear your father or any of your elder brothers to admit this roots? He answered : I didn't hear any of them relate themselves to Kurds

He adds:

In our familly this is a well known fact that our grandfather ( Najm Al-din Ayoub) setteld near Kurds and took wives from them, and they become like Uncles to us not anything else, just like our relationships with Turks as some of our ancector's mothers were Turkish

He then says:

From the evidences that proves that we are not Kurds is that the two scholars Qazi bah Al Din Bin Shadad and Emad Al Din Katib Al Isfahany were specialist to Almalik Naser (ie Saladin) and The Emad Al Din Isfahany had known Najm Aldin ayoub very well long before when he was the governor of Tikrit, and these two scholars wrote about our origins and they would object this Denial of Kurdish roots if it was not the truth, and if Najm Al Din was connected to them ( Kurds) they would sure noticed that

At the end of his talks he says:

And that family tree that Hasan bin Qarib bin Omran Al Hirashi the scholar wrote and gave to my grandfather Almalik Al Mo'azam [ Saladin's nephew the governor of damascus] which connected our roots to Ali bin Ahmad Al Meri Mamduh Abi Tayeb (The Arab Tribs of Mara bin 'Ouf from Quraish) was accepted by my grand father and he didn't reject it

and he said:

And I'm inclined to this family tree since my grandfather [Saladin's nephew] with his knowledge and wisdom of ancesrty and arab tribes and Jurisprudence accepted it and he was always in company with his father [Saladin's brother] and had known people who saw and known his grandfather [ie Najm al Din Ayoub] so he is the most reliable person in this field

Now you see Ayoubite kings and Sladin's Grandchildrens themselves Denied the "Kurdish Roots" that were Claimed even in their era , Laszlo Panaflex Add these to article and spread the word of Slasin's Grandchildren that they were not "Kurds". Ted hamiltun (talk) 05:39, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

you’re right and this is true. The Ayyubids were Arabic 93.168.74.56 (talk) 13:14, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Laszlo Panaflex can you add this to the article please? @Courcelles@historyofiran 77.31.254.183 (talk) 03:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Can you guys add these sources to the article please? @Laszlo Panaflex @Courcelles @historyofiran @Rupert Clayton 77.31.254.183 (talk) 03:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Please add that source to the Article @Laszlo Panaflex @Courcelles @historyofiran @Rupert Clayton 77.31.254.183 (talk) 03:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

References

This wiki should add these quotes!! MWahaiibii (talk) 19:40, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Note: The response below was added out of sequence to the top of this section. I moved it here to follow standard talk page conventions. Rupert Clayton (talk) 18:47, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Can someone please remove the false references nr 15 and 16 in the main article!

This must be a sabotage trying to insinuate Saladin had a mixed ancestry, but the Reference is only named, Abdullah 2017! or Wise Bauer 2013... LOL.

Someone should correct this vandalism.

I would like to further add that the sources linked further below by the arab fellow (Mwahaiibiii), are certainly not a evidence that Saladin rejected being kurd. His nephew merely mentions that being a kurd was not something that was being discussed. Nationality was not something to be proud of, the only think one would have wanted to be connected to if so, would have been to be a Quraishi, since this would mean a kinship to the prophet(pbuh) and an ever greater legitimacy to rule according to Islamic rules of jurisprudence. Dillemanali (talk) 07:51, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Third Crusade

The Third Crusade section is a mess. I would like to clean it up with some edits. There was never a battle near Ascalon between Richard and Saladin's forces. Also, the siege and battle of Jaffa of 1192 are not mentioned. Also, the section seems to imply that Richard made an attempt to capture Jerusalem, which he did not, he only made maneuvers near Jerusalem but never actually besieged the city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hutin5432 (talk • contribs) 01:05, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, I've added some updates to that section complete with citations to several scholarly sources. I think the section is much improved in terms of accuracy and presentation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hutin5432 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Ash'ari

Some time ago, I added the Ash'ari school of theology to the infobox of this article. The references for this are taken from the following texts:

• Saladin was an adherent and patron of the Ash'arite school of Sunni theology, a school that contemporary Salafis and Wahhabis like Usama bin Laden and Mullah Omar, consider to be a blasphemous heresy. Reference: Halverson, Jeffry R.; Corman, Steven R.; Goodall Jr., H. L. (2011). Master Narratives of Islamist Extremism. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 201. ISBN 0230117236.

• "Soon thereafter, other major proponents of Ash'ari thought appeared, such as al-Qushayri, al-Juwayni, al-Ghazali, Salah al-Din al-Ayyubi (known as Saladin), Ibn Tumart and others." Reference: Spevack, Aaron (2014) [2008]. The Archetypal Sunni Scholar: Law, Theology, and Mysticism in the Synthesis of Al-Bajuri. State University of New York Press. p. 44. ISBN 978-1-4384-5371-2.

• Maqrizi is also very explicit as to the theological teachings supported by Saladin and his regime: it was the Ash'ari doctrine. Reference: Lēv, Yaacov (1999). Saladin in Egypt. Brill. p. 131. ISBN 9004112219.

This was removed by @Sakimonk:. I fail to see why given that this is useful information. In particular, modern terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda consider Saladin to be there hero (see for example Strategy: The Deep Battle Against America by By Michael W. S. Ryan [Columbia University Press]) despite the fact that his school of theology was actually very different. Perhaps this should be expanded in the article but I fail to see why it should be removed entirely from the infobox. RookTaker (talk) 07:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

What theological teaching do Al-Qaeda follow? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

@RookTaker: I believe his madhab is more important then his creed. The Salafists view him as a hero because he was a muslim. I dont think it is because of the fact that he had the same ideology. @Alexis Ivanov: Al Qaeda follows Salafism and Wahhabism, and some have said they follow a form of Qutbism as well. Blizzio (talk) 16:18, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Madhab

Should we also add his madhab in the infobox as well? Blizzio (talk) 15:09, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

@Blizzio:, @RookTaker:, @Alexis Ivanov: I'm not sure what the standard practice is with these situations. Personally, I think it's sufficient to say he was a Sunni Muslim in the infobox and go more in detail about his creed/madhab in the article's main body. He followed the Shafi'i madhab, but he was a staunch Sunni Muslim and was the patron for madrasas in Cairo and Damascus for all four of the Sunni madhabs. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest removal of religion from the infobox completely. seeing that Baldwin IV of Jerusalem has no mention of religion Blizzio (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I would support adding it to Baldwin. Removing information is never appropriate. We're not in print. — LlywelynII 13:53, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Chronology

I'm not sure if the Syrian invasion section of Saladin's article is just wrong or badly formatted, but it's currently discussing events in May 1175 before those in April. — LlywelynII 13:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Adharbayjan or Azerbaijan - the Iranian province

Please someone correct that nonsense in 'Wars against Crusaders' section. Some joker has linked Iranian province Adharbayjan (Azerbaijan) with the modern country Azerbaijan (Republic) which didn't even exist in the 10th century. Yes, its funny..

'However, since then, Masʻūd had allied himself with the powerful governor of Azerbaijan and Jibal, who in 1185..' Thank you. --Alecx (talk) 20:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I've made this change, but please refrain from attacking other editors and assume good faith. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Image in infobox

This has become a point of contention again. The long-standing image in the infobox seems to have been deleted recently, so now there's a free-for-all about which image should replace it. The two reasonable images, in my opinion, are File:Cristofano dell'altissimo, saladino, ante 1568 - Serie Gioviana.jpg (mid-16th century) and File:Portrait of Saladin (before A.D. 1185; short).jpg (1185 CE). I favor the latter because it was drawn in Saladin's time (he died in 1193) and was done by a Muslim contemporary, Ismail al-Jazari. The 16th-century photo was done five centuries after Saladin's death by an Italian painter. In the Italian painting, Saladin looks bewildered and is wearing a multi-horned turban, which looks strange. Let's find a consensus here about which of the two images (or other proposed images) are best for the infobox. If we can't find a consensus here or there is little response, an RfC should be opened to settle the matter. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Also the former Italian image is based on Mamluk clothing, I have seen a commentary of this image before and I forget where I read it from, I agree with you, the manuscript version is better. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Let's use al-Jazari's work. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:07, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I changed the image to something better. If you dislike the one I put, there still many others better than the painting by Cristofano dell'Altissimo. Cristofano likely didn't have an accurate view of Medieval Egypt, hence the ridiculous turban, whereas the picture I put up is from the Kingdom of Heaven portrayal of Saladin, which came from a far more neutral and realistic viewpoint. --ItwasntSuperman

Hi @ItwasntSuperman: I relocated your response here, the other section was an older thread. We can all agree that the Cristofano painting isn't right for the infobox. Alexis, Kansas Bear and I support using al-Jazari's painting for the aforementioned reasons. The Kingdom of Heaven is a modern film and the sculpture from the movie depicts the actor Ghassan Massoud playing Saladin, and thus should not be considered for the infobox (among other reasons). --Al Ameer (talk) 20:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I restored the al-Jazari picture to the infobox per the agreement and/or reasoning given here by Kansas Bear, Alexis and myself. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:34, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure if al-Jazari's painting was intended as a portrait of Saladin (notice the "(?)" after Saladin's name in the caption[1]). I tend to prefer any of the modern depictions of Saladin (paintings or statues), as they seem more recognizable as "Saladin" (which I think would be more informative). Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 22:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

I didn't notice the full image which has that caption. As of now, I still prefer al-Jazari's illustration though. Which image/statue do you propose? A previous painting that had been the long-standing image was deleted sometime ago. --Al Ameer (talk) 23:16, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Normally I'd prefer the contemporary image over a early modern one. The fact that the caption expresses uncertainty, and comes from a book over a century old, makes me think we should be wary of using it at all. If someone can find a modern and reliable source that refers to this particular image, and associates it with Saladin, I'd totally support it as the lead image. If not I don't think we should use it.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Found some commentary on these images http://mamluk.uchicago.edu/MamlukStudiesReview_XVIII_2014-15.pdf p.207 and the pages after it. In fact you can read the whole article about the Ayyuid image in Mamluk clothes. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 18:56, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

@Alexis Ivanov: What a handy source for this discussion. Thanks for the link ;) I skimmed through some of the passages and will look more deeply into it. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:36, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: I would like to send you a book in the coming week that I have on Mamluk soldiers which includes high quality images that an artist drew based on historical sources that you will enjoy, it contains some some images of their clothes, I think this is an interesting subject especially the Mamluk headgears. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 21:36, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2016

I'd like to request adding the recently published magazine article to further reading. I believe it will assist those doing research on Saladin's campaign of 1187.

Welsh, William E. "Saladin's Battle for Jerusalem," All About History, June 2016, Issue 40, pp. 54-61.

Update: 7-4-16

To whom it may concern:

I made the request above about adding Welsh's magazine article, and I hereby withdraw the request. I apologize for the intrusion.

HistorianVictory HistorianVictory (talk) 08:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

HistorianVictory (talk) 08:39, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Request withdrawn by user. nyuszika7h (talk) 16:19, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

infobox

I requset that to add his orgin (kurdish) in there infobox.Ibrahim aziz (talk) 15:30, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you want to explain why? As far as I know we don't list ethnicity in infoboxes: see Richard I of England ~ Zirguezi 00:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

editing- Saladin's birth location

There is no doubt that Tikrit (the birth city of Saladin) is an Iraqi city. Moreover, Tikrit nowadays is the capital city Saladin province/governor, which is the official name of an Iraqi province (since 1976). Tikrit Hence, it would be more honest if you add "Tikrit (modern-day Iraq)" in addition to the past Abbasid Caliphate in the "Born" city portal. The current version includes Upper Mesopotamia, which does not provide clear information about the location because Upper Mesopotamia is not a country, nor an official province at all. Please, most of the Iraqis will be disappointed if that lack of clarity would still there. Thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikrit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin_Governorate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.216.53.166 (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

For place names, you need to refer to WP:MPN; historic contexts will receive historic place names. Since it already states Tikrit, the hyperlink gives the reader indication of modern Iraq. DA1 (talk) 14:16, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

On a related note, there is some issue with the Birth_place in the infobox where it states "Tikrit, Upper Mesopotamia, Abbasid Caliphate". Saladin was purportedly born on the day of his family's exile from Tikrit, but Tikrit was a part of the Seljuk Empire not the Abbassids, the latter had already been a shell of its former self. Nonetheless, the article mentions they were banished by Seljuk governor Bihruz, and resettled in Zengid territory (also Seljuk). While Bihruz doesn't have an article on wikipedia, he is mentioned as a Seljuk governor in other articles as well, see Ayyubid_dynasty#Origins. His father was himself a warden/governor of the Seljuks in Tikrit. So not sure why the disparity in the infobox; anyone have any comments before I edit it? -DA1 (talk) 14:49, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

wow

wow — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.216.37.110 (talk) 01:23, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 February 2018

Talk about his uncle and his relationship 50.193.223.217 (talk) 21:48, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — IVORK _Discuss 22:01, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

The Rawadid tribe

if he did hail from the The Rawadid tribe (a Kurdicized tribe of arab origins), doesn't that make him an arab? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arabos (talk • contribs) 06:40, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

That tribe is Arab it wasn't really kurdicized that much. They were known to be Arabs. So he definitely is Arab Quirk1 (talk) 02:31, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Clearly, no !—>Farawahar (talk) 09:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Family

The article that is hyperlinked to Saladin's 12th child says that he is not the child of Saladin.

Origin of the sultan

It is not clear enough that Saladin is kurdish; because there are many sources that cite saladin as Arabic or Turkish, so I think this should be mentioned.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by الرشيد (talk • contribs) 17:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC) 

It is actually very clear that he was of Kurdish ethnicity. There is literally no doubt about this. Sources mentioning him as anything else other than 100% Kurdish, are, 100% of the time, racist, chauvinist, backward Turkish and Arab sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A210:2483:C380:D5BB:8DC8:14ED:D757 (talk) 20:43, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Saladin ruled centuries before the Ottomans set foot into Anatolia from Mongolia. How on earth would he have been a Turk? It was confirmed he's a Kurd. 70.29.14.147 (talk) 05:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The Arabic and English names differ

The name is given as "An-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub" in English and as "صلاح الدين يوسف بن أيوب‎" in Arabic.

These are not equivalent. The word "An-Nasir" is missing entirely and the word "ibn" is different.

I don't know what the article should say instead. 79.180.55.69 (talk) 03:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2019

Change "Palestine" to "Kingdom of Jerusalem" to remove intentionally misleading historical revision. 82.81.82.30 (talk) 11:44, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. Please establish a WP:CONSENSUS for this change before making this edit request. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:23, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Describing Saladin's empire

Within the intro and elsewhere, for most readers I think it would be more effective and educational to say something like this:

Saladin's large sultanate ultimately ranged from Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Sudan to Syria and northern Iraq, and it included western Arabia (for instance, Mecca and Medina) southward all the way to Yemen.

Dr.Bastedo (talk) 22:13, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

If Saladin was from the Kurdish Rawadiya tribe, then would he not have been of Arab origin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawadid_dynasty

Rawwadid or Ravvadid (also Revend or Revendi) or Banū Rawwād (955–1071), was a Muslim ruling family centered in historic Azerbaijan (also known as Iranian Azerbaijan) between the late 8th and early 13th centuries.[1]

Originally of Azdi Arab descent,[2] the Rawadids ruled Tabriz and northeastern Azerbaijan in the late 8th and early 9th centuries.[1] The family became Kurdicized by the early 10th century and became centered on Tabriz and Maragheh.[3] In the second half of the 10th century and much of the 11th century, these Kurdicized descendants controlled much of Azerbaijan as well as parts of Armenia.[1]

62.0.34.134 (talk) 13:14, 9 December 2019 (UTC)Jacob D

Banu Rawwad / Rawwadid tribe is not a kurdish tribe but an Azdi Arab tribe Quirk1 (talk) 02:35, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Rawadid is an Arabized name. It comes from the Kurdish word "Rewend", which means Nomads. The origins of Saladin's Rewend family is not and has never been Arabic; the family's names having become Arabized is used by Arab nationalists to alter Saladin's origins. When the Rewend Dynasty ruled large parts of Kurdistan in the mid 10th century, they identified as Kurds. Saladin was born centuries later, so how the hell does that make him "of Arab origins"? Just quit finding excuses to alter his ethnicity. He was a Kurd, he replaced local Arab and Turkish rulers with other Kurds, and even the last Ayyubid rulers were referred to as "KURDISH" leaders in Western sources. Saladin played a major role in forming Kurdish ethnic consciousness and the Ayyubids were arguably one of the most ethno-centric (Kurd-favouring) Sultanates that have existed in the Middle-East. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1C03:708:C100:6879:9163:6C0D:FD90 (talk) 10:44, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Rawad (رواد) is also an arabic word which means Pioneers "a person who is among the first to explore or settle somewhere"-- unsigned comment added by Dalal 1999 (talk) 12:12, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Comment : Well, i suggest you all to stop posting WP:FORUM-like messages here, as your POV about Saladin does not matter, what reliable sources say does, thus, Saladin was a Kurd, not an Arab, as per the sources that are cited in te article. End off.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:23, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Image change

The painting of Saladin is already in the Legacy section. This fine bust of Saladin is a beautiful piece of art which really should represent a great historical figure on Wikipedia. Karamanli86 (talk) 16:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2020

Please change the main portrait from a bust of Saladin as portrayed by Ghassan Massoud in the 2005 film KINGDOM OF HEAVEN to an earlier, preferably medieval depiction. OleJPColeman (talk) 18:36, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. You need to suggest a specific one that's suitable for hosting on Commons. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

ali bin safyan

I have made a draft of Ali ibn Sufyan, please verify it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Ali_bin_Sufyan, you can also see it in your article on 3.In Egypt, vizier of Egypt, 3rd paragraph's third line starting from the end.

Lead

I reverted recent changes to the lead, including to his name, and generally restored the long-standing version with some modifications. To summarize: "Al-Nasir Salah al-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub" would be his most common full name, though it is often prefaced with "Al-Malik", which I did not add. A footnote could be added right after his name showing additional titles but the only sources used for this should be academic. With a subject as researched as Saladin, we ought to rely strictly on academic sources, i.e. better than Maimonides: The Life and World of One of Civilization's Greatest Minds. English translations of the titles would be useful as well. Saladin was a sovereign ruler and it is most appropriate to start the lead off by saying he was the sultan of Egypt and Syria and founder of the Ayyubid dynasty or the same thing in reverse order, as opposed to stating his ethnicity first. Same for the Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid caliphs, same for the Mamluk and Ottoman sultans, as well as Saladin's Ayyubid successors. The next sentence begins that he was a Sunni Muslim Kurd and led the Muslim campaigns against the Crusader states. I saw that his being a Sunni Muslim was removed, but in this case it's actually a vital fact. Saladin transitioned Egypt, a major country, from Shia Fatimid rule to Sunni rule, switched its allegiance to the Sunni Abbasids, and aggressively promoted the Sunni schools of jurisprudence in Egypt and Syria.

As for the modifications to the long-standing versions: I removed all citations from the lead. They do not belong here. The information is sourced in the article body; anything that was not, is now. The fact that he was an ethnic Kurd is undisputed in the reliable, scholarly sources, so we don't need to 'secure' this fact in the lead with multiple citations. I deleted that he was the "first Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques". The source used is Arab News and it is not convincing. If this could be backed by reliable, academic sources, then it should be added to the article. I removed the strange sentence of him being "described as the de-facto Caliph of Islam" backed by two weak sources for such a statement: Kadir Natho's Circassian History and Chris McNab's Famous Battles of the Medieval Period. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2021

i dont no how to use this sorry please don't ban me TZS Dream OnYt (talk) 19:39, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

this is for requesting edits to an article. Post your suggestions in the form of "change X to Y" and provide sources. RudolfRed (talk) 20:26, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

In "Early Expeditions" 2nd paragraph discusses Saladin's position during the battle. CHANGE "Saladin played a major role, commanding the right-wing of the Zengid army, while a force of Kurds commanded the left, and Shirkuh was stationed in the center. Muslim sources at the time, however, put Saladin"... TO "Saladin played a major role. Christian sources place Saladin commanding the right-wing of the Zengid army, while a force of Kurds commanded the left, and Shirkuh was stationed in the center. Muslim sources at the time, however put Saladin".... If some sources are labelled as Muslim sources, other sources must be delineated by their religion as well.

Some small edit requests

1. In the first sentence, the bracket where you have written his name in Kurdish and Arabic:

• There's a small typo in the Kurdish part (not the Latin one), it's an extra letter which needs to be removed.
• Put the Arabic after Kurdish because he is Kurdish, not Arabic.
• Remove the "romanized: " text in the Kurdish part because it's not romanized, it's just his name in one of the Kurdish alphabets.

With all of the changes above, it will be:

Al-Nasir Salah al-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub (Arabic: الناصر صلاح الدين يوسف بن أيوب, romanized: An-Nāṣir Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb; Kurdish: Selahedînê Eyûbî, سەلاحەدینی ئەیووبی; 1137 – 4 March 1193), better known simply as Salah ad-Din or Saladin (/ˈsælədɪn/;), was a Sunni Muslim Kurd and the first sultan of Egypt and Syria and founder of the Ayyubid dynasty.

If you just want to correct the typo described the first edit request, it will be:

Al-Nasir Salah al-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub (Arabic: الناصر صلاح الدين يوسف بن أيوب, romanized: An-Nāṣir Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb; Kurdish: سەلاحەدینی ئەیووبی, romanized: Selahedînê Eyûbî; 1137 – 4 March 1193), better known simply as Salah ad-Din or Saladin (/ˈsælədɪn/;), was a Sunni Muslim Kurd and the first sultan of Egypt and Syria and founder of the Ayyubid dynasty.

Regards, RealRojSerbest (talk).

2. I'd like to suggest adding Lessing's play, NATHAN THE WISE (1779), to the cultural legacy portion. There is already a Wikipedia article on this particular play, which was very influential in the way that westerners saw Saladin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_the_Wise

Thanks, Jeri (meerkat7) IP: 2603:7000:6402:9bac:d48a:e8dd:3699:6637 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:6402:9BAC:D48A:E8DD:3699:6637 (talk) 21:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree, the names should be added. @RealRojSerbest request makes this page more legible. The name should be in brackets () OM262464 (talk) 00:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2021

Add the novel [Talisman] by Sir Walter Scott to the Novels section under Cultural Depictions of Saladin. He is a primary character in this book. 104.128.167.195 (talk) 21:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:28, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2021

Saladin was a sufi, so why not add this in? Abdul Qadir Gilani ق was very influential in that era and Salahuddin even met him. Notrealtime (talk) 11:20, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 11:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2021

77.244.126.30 (talk) 08:43, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

he was Turkish, not Kurdish. please correct this mistake.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:49, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Computer gaming question

Where's Age of Empires 2's Saladin campaign reference in the video game section? It was important enough to the developers for it to be a part of the initial launch and covered a bit of the crusades. I know it's not accurate to say the least, but it is a part of him being in video games. Source: https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Saladin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.24.170.113 (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Pringle ref

The Pringle ref is currently given as:

• Pringle, D. (1993). The Churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem: Volume 3, The City of Jerusalem: A Corpus. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0521390385.

...and the p=208

This cannot be right. In 1993, Pringle had vol=1 published:

• Pringle, Denys (1993). The Churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem: A-K (excluding Acre and Jerusalem). Vol. I. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0 521 39036 2.

Vol 3 was published in 2007 (Yeah; google got the date wrong 😟):

• Pringle, Denys (2007). The Churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem: The city of Jerusalem. Vol. III. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-39038-5.

So, is the correct ref Pringle, 1993, p 208; or Pringle, 2007, p. 208?? I cannot see that either page is relevant? What am I missing? Huldra (talk) 23:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Found it! It is in Pringle, 1993, p 208, 2nd column.Huldra (talk) 21:44, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2023

Article should have the Arabic/Kurdish name without the need to hover over tiny links. Currently article does not follow convention in not having his actual name in actual language script. See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al-Adid where the "Al-Adid" is clearly spelled out. Having this change does not imply Salaudin ancestry but it brings accuracy and fairness. It is in poor taste and unencylopedic to not have a historical person actual name, hidden over a tiny link. OM262464 (talk) 00:10, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

• Response: The naming information is important and it currently is unreferenced and I could not confirm it, so I have removed it. If you can provide a reliable source WP:RS for the Arabic/Kurdish name, editors may look at and add the information, but it will need to have a reliable source which can be verified. See WP:RS, WP:V, WP:CITE.  // Timothy :: talk  04:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  The deletion of the original name had been in poor taste and disrupted Wikipedia, this edit/deletion should only be done by a Wikipedia editor that can read and confirm the Arabic and Kurdish versions of the name Wikipedia:V. If you are not able to verify(please show that you can read/understand Kurdish and Arabic, I did not see that on your personal page), please tag someone who can, otherwise it makes no sense to edit something one can not verify Wikipedia:V. This is the page in Arabic Wikipedia - https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AD_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%8A%D9%88%D8%A8%D9%8A and here is the page in the Kurdish wikipedia - https://ckb.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B3%DB%95%DA%B5%D8%A7%D8%AD%DB%95%D8%AF%D8%AF%DB%8C%D9%86%DB%8C_%D8%A6%DB%95%DB%8C%DB%8C%D9%88%D9%88%D8%A8%DB%8C and https://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selahed%C3%AEn%C3%AA_Ey%C3%BBb%C3%AE OM262464 (talk) 19:57, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  ‫صلاح الدين الايوبى‬‎. (2018). (n.p.): ‫الدار الذهبية للنشر والتوزيع‬‎.

  https://www.google.com/books/edition/%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AD_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%8A%D9%88%D8%A8%D9%89/FldbDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

  It has the literel English on the Book Title page so even a NON-speaker can see it "Saladin" and then the Arabic. Ofcourse, the cited book title is not the only page with Saladin<->Arabic *original* name, the name appears again on the second, third and later in book appears on top of every page (Al-Nasir Salaudin). Even in this talk page, there is a cited Arabic book with Saladin and his descendents (Fawed Al Jalieyah Fi Faraed Al Naseriah (In Arabic: الفوائد الجلیه فی الفرائد الناصریة) : [Original manuscript is in the british museum, Document number 557]), this book is also available and can be verified online.

  There are hundreds of verified/reliable sources on this name based on search in Google Scholar which returns a whole list of book names, but the more important point here is that this edit of name or deletion should be done by an editor who can verify the Arabic/Kurdish. Wikipedia:V. Currently the page is in worse shape than before the edits. OM262464 (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

  There are more than enough sources and means of verifying this sort of information on Saladin so a WP:TROUT to @TimothyBlue for going down the deletion rather than sourcing and clarification route. It's sourced now. However, while I realize there is a Kurdish element to Saladin's identity, I agree that the Kurdish spelling of his very Arabic name is an irrelevance. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:12, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Iskandar323Thank You for the addition, it makes the page much better. May I suggest having the name in brackets as is common and more readable than over the small link(a and b) examples being Shirkuh and Ayyubid dynasty where "The Ayyubid dynasty (Arabic: الأيوبيون al-Ayyūbīyūn)", .

  I am a newcomer here so I appreciate the swift response on adding the Arabic name as it makes Wiki even better. OM262464 (talk) 21:32, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Provenance of the coin

Can someone with editing powers add that the coin depicted in the infobox was minted by the Artuqids in modern day eastern Turkey?

Source: https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=266414

189.193.83.122 (talk) 22:55, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Selahaddin Eyyubi's mother is of Turkish descent and Wikipedia contradicts its own values

Selahaddin Eyyubi's mother, Amine Hatun bin Onur, is the sister of the Seljuk Harim Emir (governor) Shihabeddin Mahmud ibn Tokus al-Harimi. Selahaddin Eyyubi's mother is Turkish. If Salahaddin Eyyubi's father is Kurdish (it was not fully proven at that point), would a well-established institution like Wikipedia accept the sexist approach that a person's ancestry is descended from his father? A person inherits half of his genes from his mother. Then you are contradicting your own values ​​as Wikipedia. Flagellum Dei ATTILA (talk) 09:18, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

It was a patriarchal, tribal society, so he was naturally considered part of the tribe of his father. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

This doesn't change the truth you said. Saladin carries half of his mother's genes.This gene is the Seljuk Turk gene. Flagellum Dei ATTILA (talk) 12:17, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

If Wikipedia does not provide accurate information about Saladin's mother, Wikipedia's alleged credibility will be lost. Flagellum Dei ATTILA (talk) 12:33, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

That's not how Wikipedia works. You need to provide sources clearly asserting this information and, even then, only if it is referenced in as many reputable sources as his father's lineage should we give it equal weight. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Since there is no information about Saladin's mother in Wikipedia, the storks must have brought Saladin to his father.It's very logical. Flagellum Dei ATTILA (talk) 13:54, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

If you have no interest in furnishing sources, expect no interest from editors in editing. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I second what Iskandar323 said. I would also advise Flagellum Dei ATTILA to read up on WP:FORUM and WP:SOAPBOX. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:21, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

It sure seems like Flagellum Dei ATTILA is currently engaged in vandalizing this talk page, as well as Talk:Shirkuh (see history) and Talk:Najm al-Din Ayyub ([2]). Note that, if necessary, it is possible to semi-protect talk pages, so I suggest the vandal stop wasting their time. R Prazeres (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Article is not clear on when he became Sultan

The infobox says 1174, but in the section "Sultan of Egypt", there is no mention of Saladin acquiring the title of Sultan. The Fatimid Caliphate is said to have been overthrown in 1171 at the death of the last Caliph, so was Saladin de facto Sultan? Was he still a vizier? What does the 1174 date mean? Was there an interregnum? Furthermore, the only mention of Saladin becoming Sultan is in the section "Further Conquests of Syria", which seems to have taken place in 1175 or 1176, according to the article, and so I ask again, what is the purpose of the 1174 date!

Bottom line is that this is misleading and confusing. I have no idea when this man assumed power, because had I not read the rest of the article, I would have assumed it was 1174, despite the fact that nothing in the article actually supports that claim. Pz Kmpf VI Ausf B (talk) 01:53, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Saladin’s Arab origin

You should add his Arab ethnicity. Furthermore, the Ayyubids & their kings have denied being kurdish many times and claimed Arabic ancestry Quirk1 (talk) 02:32, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Not without secondary sourcing. Drmies (talk) 02:33, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

  In the book al-Fawa'id al-Jalieyah Fi al-Fara'id al-Naseriah (In Arabic: الفوائد الجلية فی الفرائد الناصریة) which is a Manuscript preserved in Hagia Sophia, No. 4823. and a copy of it is found in the British Museum, No. 557 Which is the collection of letters and poems of Saladin’s nephew the Ayyubid King al-Malik(king) Nasser bin al-Malik(king) Mo'azam Isa bin al-Malik(king) Adel Bin Ayyub written by his son Majd al-Din Abu Mohammed Known by title Al-Malik(the King) al-Amjad Al-Ayyubi[1] Manuscript link: https://archive.org/details/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07 in the first couple of pages.

  He Rejects the Affiliation with Kurds saying:

  " Ibn Athir the scholar says: Najm Aldin Ayyub (Saladin's Father) is originally from Duwain in Azerbaijan, His origins are from the tribe Rawadiyah, which is the most honorable among the kurds, Now this is what is widespread among many people, and I didn't hear any of our family elders that were in my time to admit this [Kurdish root])[2]

  He continues :

  I asked the Mola al-Malik Amjad Taqi Al-Din Abal Fadhl Al Abas Bin Sultan Malik Al Adil (Ayyubid king and Saladin’s nephew) Did you hear your father or any of your elder brothers to admit this roots? He answered: I didn't hear any of them relate themselves to Kurds[3]

  He adds:

  In our family, this is a well-known fact that our grandfather ( Najm Al-din Ayoub) settled near Kurds and took wives from them, and they became like Uncles to us, not anything else, just like our relationships with Turks as some of our ancestors mothers were Turkish[4]

  He then says:

  The evidences that prove that we are not Kurds is that the two scholars Qazi bah Al-Din Bin Shadad and Emad Al-Din Katib Al Isfahany were specialist to Almalik Naser (ie Saladin) and The Emad Al-Din Isfahany had known Najm Aldin Ayyub very well long before when he was the governor of Tikrit, and these two scholars wrote about our origins and they would object this Denial of Kurdish roots if it was not the truth, and if Najm Al Din was connected to them ( Kurds) they would surely notice that[5]

  At the end of his talks, he says:

  And that family tree that Hasan bin Qarib bin Omran Al Hirashi the scholar wrote and gave to my grandfather Almalik Al Mo'azam [ Saladin's nephew the governor of Damascus] which connected our roots to Ali bin Ahmad Al Meri Mamduh Abi Tayeb (The Arab Tribs of Mara bin 'Ouf from Quraish) was accepted by my grandfather and he didn't reject it [6]

  and he said:

  And I'm inclined to this family tree since my grandfather [Saladin's nephew] with his knowledge and wisdom of ancestry and arab tribes and Jurisprudence accepted it and he was always in company with his father [Saladin's brother] and had known people who saw and known his grandfather [ie Najm al-Din Ayoub] so he is the most reliable person in this field [7]

  Now you see Ayyubid kings and Saladin’s grandchildren themselves Denied the "Kurdish origins" that were Claimed even in their era, please add these to the article and spread the word of Saladin's Grandchildren that they were not "Kurds". Quirk1 (talk) 04:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Quirk1, please post your comments here, not on my talk page, as I asked you multiple times. I now see that you commented three times already on this talk page and you still have not provided clear, reliable, and secondary sources to support your claim, per Wikipedia's policies. Unless you do so, your proposal will not receive much consideration. R Prazeres (talk) 06:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried to reply many times but I keep facing an error. The Ayyubids not only have denied Kurdish ancestry but they've denied being Kurdish many times let alone Kurdish ancestry, you can find a source in the revision history Quirk1 (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I quoted the pdf page number Quirk1 (talk) 07:09, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

The Ayyubids family Kings have denied being Kurdish many times. Discuss it with me Quirk1 (talk) 07:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I've been negatively affected by this article and thinking about it for a year. You can find a source by ibn wasil who was the judge, courtier and scholar of the Ayyubids in the revision history. I quoted the pdf page number @Prazeres since you reverted the edit, i read wiki rules that said I should discuss it with you. Waiting for your response since you said you'd take part in the discussion Quirk1 (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Quirk1, you misunderstand the rules: it's not solely up to me to approve your edit, it's up to the community to reach a consensus in favour of a previously disputed change. If there's no consensus, there's no change. I've already told you the reasons your edit was rejected: you didn't cite a reliable secondary source. Moreover, your proposal was previously rejected on this talk page (above) for that very reason. You made your edit anyways without obtaining consensus here, and you keep ignoring the sources supporting the existing information in the article.

Other good-faith editors may now comment if they like, but similar requests have already been denied in the past multiple times, for good reason. Until a proper consensus with compelling evidence emerges to do otherwise, the status quo will remain. R Prazeres (talk) 20:06, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Manuscript of the glorious King Hassan bin Al-Malik Al-Nasir Saladin Al-Ayyubi (he was from amongst the Ayyubid kings) in his book called (Al-Fawa’id Al-Jaliya fi Al-Fara’id Al-Nasiriyah), which is a manuscript preserved in Hagia Sophia, No. 4823, and a copy of it is found in the British Museum, No. 557 here is the link: https://ia801802.us.archive.org/23/items/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07/AYASOFYA4823.pdf i don't think the editor who replied to me could read Arabic.

King Amjad, grandson of Saladin Al-Ayyubi, acknowledges his Arabism. You will see that the Grandchildren of Saladin (Kings) deny being Kurdish many times and they acknowledge their Arabness. What do you think? Please let me know because they said they are Arabs not kurds Quirk1 (talk) 23:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

You can check the first pages of the Manuscript i sent you, it's there, since the editor who replied to me may not know Arabic. If you have any questions let me know please Quirk1 (talk) 00:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Here's a more reliable link: https://archive.org/details/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07 you can see it in the first couple of pages Quirk1 (talk) 04:16, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Saladin was an Ummayyad Arab, not a Kurd

Change the "Kurdish" origin of Saladin. The Ayyubids denied being Kurds many times, and have claimed Ummayyad ancestry. Some backing to this:

The Rare and Excellent History of Saladin by Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad1, The Continuation of the History of Damascus by Ibn al-Qalanisi

Najm ad-Din Ayyub and his brother Shirkuh were Arabs from the tribe of Banu Tayy, which is one of the most ancient and honorable tribes of Arabia. They traced their lineage to Rabiah ibn Ka’b al-Asadi, who was one of the most eminent companions of the Messenger of God. Their ancestry is verified and undisputed. Another book: * Sultanic Anecdotes and Josephly Virtues by Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad3, a 12th-century jurist, scholar and biographer who wrote a biography of Saladin based on personal observation and friendship. He wrote: Najm ad-Din Ayyub and his brother Shirkuh were Arabs from the tribe of Banu Tayy, which is one of the most noble and illustrious tribes of Arabia. They claimed descent from Rabiah ibn Ka’b al-Asadi, who was one of the most distinguished companions of the Apostle of God. Their genealogy is confirmed and established. Markhorist (talk) 09:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —Sirdog (talk) 00:17, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Manuscript of the glorious King Hassan bin Al-Malik Al-Nasir Saladin Al-Ayyubi (he was from amongst the Ayyubid kings) in his book called (Al-Fawa’id Al-Jaliya fi Al-Fara’id Al-Nasiriyah), which is a manuscript preserved in Hagia Sophia, No. 4823, and a copy of it is found in the British Museum, No. 557 here is the link: https://ia801802.us.archive.org/23/items/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07/AYASOFYA4823.pdf

King Amjad, grandson of Saladin Al-Ayyubi, acknowledges his Arabism. You will see that the Grandchildren of Saladin (Kings) deny being Kurdish many times and they acknowledge their Arabness. Quirk1 (talk) 00:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

You can find this in the first pages of the manuscript Quirk1 (talk) 00:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Here is a more reliable link https://archive.org/details/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07 Quirk1 (talk) 04:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Sirdog Quirk1 (talk) 00:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Quirk1: I have re-enabled the edit request so another editor can evaluate if the sourcing you have provided is sufficient to implement it. I'm uncomfortable doing so myself due to my lack of knowledge in this subject area. —Sirdog (talk) 04:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

No, please enable the edit request on my last topic i made on this article 🙏 In the book al-Fawa'id al-Jalieyah Fi al-Fara'id al-Naseriah (In Arabic: الفوائد الجلية فی الفرائد الناصریة) which is a Manuscript preserved in Hagia Sophia, No. 4823. and a copy of it is found in the British Museum, No. 557 Which is the collection of letters and poems of Saladin’s nephew the Ayyubid King al-Malik(king) Nasser bin al-Malik(king) Mo'azam Isa bin al-Malik(king) Adel Bin Ayyub written by his son Majd al-Din Abu Mohammed Known by title Al-Malik(the King) al-Amjad Al-Ayyubi[1] Manuscript link: https://archive.org/details/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07 in the first couple of pages.

He Rejects the Affiliation with Kurds saying: " Ibn Athir the scholar says: Najm Aldin Ayyub (Saladin's Father) is originally from Duwain in Azerbaijan, His origins are from the tribe Rawadiyah, which is the most honorable among the kurds, Now this is what is widespread among many people, and I didn't hear any of our family elders that were in my time to admit this [Kurdish root])[2]

He continues :

I asked the Mola al-Malik Amjad Taqi Al-Din Abal Fadhl Al Abas Bin Sultan Malik Al Adil (Ayyubid king and Saladin’s nephew) Did you hear your father or any of your elder brothers to admit this roots? He answered: I didn't hear any of them relate themselves to Kurds[3]

He adds:

In our family, this is a well-known fact that our grandfather ( Najm Al-din Ayoub) settled near Kurds and took wives from them, and they became like Uncles to us, not anything else, just like our relationships with Turks as some of our ancestors mothers were Turkish[4]

He then says:

The evidences that prove that we are not Kurds is that the two scholars Qazi bah Al-Din Bin Shadad and Emad Al-Din Katib Al Isfahany were specialist to Almalik Naser (ie Saladin) and The Emad Al-Din Isfahany had known Najm Aldin Ayyub very well long before when he was the governor of Tikrit, and these two scholars wrote about our origins and they would object this Denial of Kurdish roots if it was not the truth, and if Najm Al Din was connected to them ( Kurds) they would surely notice that[5]

At the end of his talks, he says:

And that family tree that Hasan bin Qarib bin Omran Al Hirashi the scholar wrote and gave to my grandfather Almalik Al Mo'azam [ Saladin's nephew the governor of Damascus] which connected our roots to Ali bin Ahmad Al Meri Mamduh Abi Tayeb (The Arab Tribs of Mara bin 'Ouf from Quraish) was accepted by my grandfather and he didn't reject it [6]

and he said:

And I'm inclined to this family tree since my grandfather [Saladin's nephew] with his knowledge and wisdom of ancestry and arab tribes and Jurisprudence accepted it and he was always in company with his father [Saladin's brother] and had known people who saw and known his grandfather [ie Najm al-Din Ayoub] so he is the most reliable person in this field [7]

Now you see Ayyubid kings and Saladin’s grandchildren themselves Denied the "Kurdish origins" that were Claimed even in their era, please add these to the article and spread the word of Saladin's Grandchildren that they were not "Kurds". Quirk1 (talk) 04:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Saladin’s Grandchildren denied being Kurdish and showed their Arab ancestry

In the book al-Fawa'id al-Jalieyah Fi al-Fara'id al-Naseriah (In Arabic: الفوائد الجلية فی الفرائد الناصریة) which is a Manuscript preserved in Hagia Sophia, No. 4823. and a copy of it is found in the British Museum, No. 557 Which is the collection of letters and poems of Saladin’s nephew the Ayyubid King al-Malik(king) Nasser bin al-Malik(king) Mo'azam Isa bin al-Malik(king) Adel Bin Ayyub written by his son Majd al-Din Abu Mohammed Known by title Al-Malik(the King) al-Amjad Al-Ayyubi[1] Manuscript link: https://archive.org/details/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07 in the first couple of pages.

He Rejects the Affiliation with Kurds saying: " Ibn Athir the scholar says: Najm Aldin Ayyub (Saladin's Father) is originally from Duwain in Azerbaijan, His origins are from the tribe Rawadiyah, which is the most honorable among the kurds, Now this is what is widespread among many people, and I didn't hear any of our family elders that were in my time to admit this [Kurdish root])[2]

He continues :

I asked the Mola al-Malik Amjad Taqi Al-Din Abal Fadhl Al Abas Bin Sultan Malik Al Adil (Ayyubid king and Saladin’s nephew) Did you hear your father or any of your elder brothers to admit this roots? He answered: I didn't hear any of them relate themselves to Kurds[3]

He adds:

In our family, this is a well-known fact that our Father ( Najm Al-din Ayoub) settled near Kurds and took wives from them, and they became like Uncles to us, not anything else, just like our relationships with Turks as some of our ancestors mothers were Turkish[4]

He then says:

The evidences that prove that we are not Kurds is that the two scholars Qazi bah Al-Din Bin Shadad and Emad Al-Din Katib Al Isfahany were specialist to Almalik Naser (ie Saladin) and The Emad Al-Din Isfahany had known Najm Aldin Ayyub very well long before when he was the governor of Tikrit, and these two scholars wrote about our origins and they would object this Denial of Kurdish roots if it was not the truth, and if Najm Al Din was connected to them ( Kurds) they would surely notice that[5]

At the end of his talks, he says:

And that family tree that Hasan bin Qarib bin Omran Al Hirashi the scholar wrote and gave to my grandfather Almalik Al Mo'azam [ Saladin's nephew the governor of Damascus] which connected our roots to Ali bin Ahmad Al Meri Mamduh Abi Tayeb (The Arab Tribs of Mara bin 'Ouf from Quraish) was accepted by my grandfather and he didn't reject it [6]

and he said:

And I'm inclined to this family tree since my grandfather [Saladin's nephew] with his knowledge and wisdom of ancestry and arab tribes and Jurisprudence accepted it and he was always in company with his father [Saladin's brother] and had known people who saw and known his Father [ie Najm al-Din Ayoub] so he is the most reliable person in this field [7]

Now you see Ayyubid kings and Saladin’s grandchildren themselves Denied the "Kurdish origins" that were Claimed even in their era, please add these to the article and spread the word of Saladin's Grandchildren that they were not "Kurds". Quirk1 (talk) 01:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

corrected/more reliable link: https://archive.org/details/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07 Quirk1 (talk) 02:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

It is possible that recent histories of Saladin are mistaken, but most secondary and tertiary sources currently state that his family had Kurdish origins. The source above is primary, and would need validating by scholars in secondary literature in order to be something that could readily compete with the existing sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

It is secondary because they literally denied ibn Al-Athir's claim. Do you understand that? They're basing Saladin's kurdishness on ibn alathir's taken out of context statement Quirk1 (talk) 05:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Some even say that ibn alathir's book was distorted, this is why you should rely on manuscripts, i have many if you want to see, just ask me, even from Ahlul bayt writers who accompanied Saladin, they wrote his Umayyad Arab lineage. There is an 80% chance that the Ayyubids are Umayyads who fled the killing of the Abbasids. Quirk1 (talk) 05:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

https://sites.dlib.nyu.edu/viewer/books/aub_aco000781/display?lang=ar The Ayyubids have repeatedly denied being Kurdish and have affirmed their Arab ancestry/lineage. None of the Ayyubids claimed to be Kurdish. They said, “But we are Arabs who came to the Kurds and married from them.” This is recorded in the book of Ibn Wasil, who served the Ayyubids, who was a devoted scholar, judge, courtier, diplomat, and author of the Ayyubids and their successors, the Mamluks. He served various Ayyubid rulers, such as al-Nasir Dawud of Karak, al-Muzaffar II of Hama, and al-Kamil of Egypt. He also participated in diplomatic missions to the Crusader states and the Kingdom of Sicily. His book, which covers the period from 1169 to 1260, is called Mufarrij al-kurub fi akhbar Bani Ayyub (‘The Dispeller of Sorrows in the History of the Ayyubids’). You can find the Ayyubids’ statements on page 3 of his book or page 43 of the PDF.</ref> Quirk1 (talk) 05:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Here is more secondary sourcing for this case https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ayyubids#:~:text=Once%20the%20Ayyubids%20were%20ensconced,stemming%20from%20the%20Morra%20b. Quirk1 (talk) 06:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Book: From Saladin To The Mongols. The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260 R. Stephen Humphreys mentions that the Ayyubids dynasty is of Arab descent in page 6

https://archive.org/details/from-saladin-to-the-mongols-the-ayyubids-of-damascus-1193-1260/page/6/mode/1up?q=Arab

Quirk1 (talk) 07:00, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, the Encyclopedia Iranica says the opposite. It says they were Kurdish, and then "Once the Ayyubids were ensconced in power, some of them sponsored genealogies showing that they were not Kurds, but rather of noble Arab descent". This implies there was an ancient public relations campaign to recharacterize the Ayyubid ancestry, and the manuscripts you cite could well be part of this rebranding initiative. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:09, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

No it doesn't say that. I think you've miss-read it and also misunderstood it. The manuscripts i cite are the most reliable because they're from the Ayyubids themselves and direct scholars of the Ayyubids, i didn't cite the other manuscript yet which is from an Ahlul Bayt author, i would like to show it too, you could find it in the revision history of the page if you want to. Me and you know that the Ayyubids know their ancestry more than we do, also if you look at their lineage, all of them are Arab lineages, not one shows a kurdish lineage. I challenge you to bring me their lineage and we'll see who's right Quirk1 (talk) 07:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

From the perspective of modern historical analysis, any manuscripts from the 12th or 13th century still constitute primary sources that need analysing by historians. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:31, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a different manuscript that was stored in the national french library in Paris after the French colonizer stole it and hid it for 400 years, The title of this manuscript is “The Masterpiece in the Systems of Genealogical Origins, or an Explanation of the One Who Has Been Deprived of His Origin from the Accountable People.” the Genealogist has accompanied Salahuddin Al-Ayubi, and the name of the genealogist is Muhammad bin Al-Hussein Al-Hasani Al-Aftasi Al-Misri from Ahlul Bayt, it is said in the manuscript that the Genealogist is from the lineage of Hasan & he is from the Shafi'i doctrine, this means that he is from Ahlul Bayt. Therefore he is very trusted. https://x.com/arabianquirk1/status/1722725649817944277?s=46&t=ayVB5IVLfyoe-e-VH1sXug see this post and see the pictures of the manuscript and this is the link for the manuscript from the national library of France: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b11001602d/f18.item.zoom Quirk1 (talk) 07:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The other manuscript is in the revision history of article not the talk page. Also your point is invalid because of this, i suggest you read it before engaging with me: In the book al-Fawa'id al-Jalieyah Fi al-Fara'id al-Naseriah (In Arabic: الفوائد الجلية فی الفرائد الناصریة) which is a Manuscript preserved in Hagia Sophia, No. 4823. and a copy of it is found in the British Museum, No. 557 Which is the collection of letters and poems of Saladin’s nephew the Ayyubid King al-Malik(king) Nasser bin al-Malik(king) Mo'azam Isa bin al-Malik(king) Adel Bin Ayyub written by his son Majd al-Din Abu Mohammed Known by title Al-Malik(the King) al-Amjad Al-Ayyubi[1] Manuscript link: https://archive.org/details/makhtutat-aya-sofya-07 in the first couple of pages.

He Rejects the Affiliation with Kurds saying:

" Ibn Athir the scholar says: Najm Aldin Ayyub (Saladin's Father) is originally from Duwain in Azerbaijan, His origins are from the tribe Rawadiyah, which is the most honorable among the kurds, Now this is what is widespread among many people, and I didn't hear any of our family elders that were in my time to admit this [Kurdish root])[2]

He continues :

I asked the Mola al-Malik Amjad Taqi Al-Din Abal Fadhl Al Abas Bin Sultan Malik Al Adil (Ayyubid king and Saladin’s nephew) Did you hear your father or any of your elder brothers to admit this roots? He answered: I didn't hear any of them relate themselves to Kurds[3]

He adds:

In our family, this is a well-known fact that our grandfather ( Najm Al-din Ayoub) settled near Kurds and took wives from them, and they became like Uncles to us, not anything else, just like our relationships with Turks as some of our ancestors mothers were Turkish[4]

He then says:

The evidences that prove that we are not Kurds is that the two scholars Qazi bah Al-Din Bin Shadad and Emad Al-Din Katib Al Isfahany were specialist to Almalik Naser (ie Saladin) and The Emad Al-Din Isfahany had known Najm Aldin Ayyub very well long before when he was the governor of Tikrit, and these two scholars wrote about our origins and they would object this Denial of Kurdish roots if it was not the truth, and if Najm Al Din was connected to them ( Kurds) they would surely notice that[5]

At the end of his talks, he says:

And that family tree that Hasan bin Qarib bin Omran Al Hirashi the scholar wrote and gave to my grandfather Almalik Al Mo'azam [ Saladin's nephew the governor of Damascus] which connected our roots to Ali bin Ahmad Al Meri Mamduh Abi Tayeb (The Arab Tribs of Mara bin 'Ouf from Quraish) was accepted by my grandfather and he didn't reject it [6]

and he said:

And I'm inclined to this family tree since my grandfather [Saladin's nephew] with his knowledge and wisdom of ancestry and arab tribes and Jurisprudence accepted it and he was always in company with his father [Saladin's brother] and had known people who saw and known his grandfather [ie Najm al-Din Ayoub] so he is the most reliable person in this field [7]

Quirk1 (talk) 07:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The question isn't about manuscripts; it is about how modern historians assess manuscripts. This is just the type of sourcing that Wikipedia requires I'm afraid. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Check the previous reply, idk why it went above instead of bottom. That manuscript was hidden for 400 years and it debunks your argument that the Ayyubids showed Arab lineages to improve their image because an Ahlul bayt author wrote their lineage even before they showed their Arab lineages. Quirk1 (talk) 07:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The point is Encyclopedia Iranica's, not mine. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The point is literally yours, not Encyclopedia Iranica Quirk1 (talk) 18:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Again: "Once the Ayyubids were ensconced in power, some of them sponsored genealogies showing that they were not Kurds, but rather of noble Arab descent". From your source. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Could you perhaps change the order of my earlier other manuscript response and put it above my last 2 replies including this one Quirk1 (talk) 07:58, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

All those sources you provided above are primary, on Wikipedia, we go by what the mainstream of published reliable sources say.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:39, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: i'm reposting this because the one before went above. This is a different manuscript that was stored in the national french library in Paris after the French colonizer stole it and hid it for 400 years, The title of this manuscript is “The Masterpiece in the Systems of Genealogical Origins, or an Explanation of the One Who Has Been Deprived of His Origin from the Accountable People.” the Genealogist has accompanied Salahuddin Al-Ayubi, and the name of the genealogist is Muhammad bin Al-Hussein Al-Hasani Al-Aftasi Al-Misri from Ahlul Bayt, it is said in the manuscript that the Genealogist is from the lineage of Hasan & he is from the Shafi'i doctrine, this means that he is from Ahlul Bayt. Therefore he is very trusted. https://x.com/arabianquirk1/status/1722725649817944277?s=46&t=ayVB5IVLfyoe-e-VH1sXug see this post and see the pictures of the manuscript and this is the link for the manuscript from the national library of France: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b11001602d/f18.item.zoom what are your thoughts @Wikaviani: and @Iskandar323:? This debunks iskandar's possible claim that they might've claimed Arab ancestry to improve their image and not because they had Arab ancestry. Quirk1 (talk) 18:56, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I meant lineage not ancestry* and by lineage i don't mean it from far away as Saladin's grandfather Shadi ibn Marwan was an Umayyad Arab. Here are some reliable secondary sources:

Shadi ibn Marwan's Lineage and Early Life by Khalid Yahya Blankinship, The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 109, No. 2 (1999), pp. 233-242. This article examines the origins and early life of Shadi ibn Marwan, a prominent figure in the early Umayyad caliphate. Blankinship argues that Shadi was the son of Marwan ibn al-Hakam, the fourth Umayyad caliph, and that he was born in the early 660s. He also discusses Shadi's early career in the Umayyad government, noting that he served as governor of Khurasan in the late 680s and early 690s.

Shadi ibn Marwan: A Study in Umayyad Politics by John A. Shoup, The Muslim World, Vol. 68, No. 3/4 (1978), pp. 253-265. This article provides a comprehensive overview of Shadi ibn Marwan's life and career. Shoup discusses Shadi's family background, his early career in the Umayyad government, his governorship of Khurasan, and his role in the Umayyad civil war of 683-685. He also examines Shadi's character and legacy, concluding that he was a skilled and experienced politician who played a significant role in the early Umayyad caliphate.

The Umayyad Caliphate: 650-750 A.D. by Hugh N. Kennedy, Cambridge University Press, 1981. This book provides a detailed history of the Umayyad caliphate, the first Islamic dynasty to rule over a vast empire. Kennedy discusses Shadi ibn Marwan on several occasions, noting his role in the Umayyad civil war and his governorship of Khurasan. He also praises Shadi's administrative skills and his ability to maintain order in a turbulent province. @Iskandar323: @Wikaviani: !! Quirk1 (talk) 19:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are some reliable secondary sources of Saladin's grandfather Shadi ibn Marwan:

Shadi ibn Marwan was a prominent figure in the Umayyad caliphate. He was the son of Marwan 2, the fourth Umayyad caliph, and he was born in the early 660s CE.

Shadi played a significant role in the Muslim conquest of Armenia and its governance. He led a series of successful military campaigns against the Byzantines, and he eventually conquered the entire province of Armenia in 691 CE.

Shadi's governance of Armenia was also successful. He was able to maintain order in the province and to promote economic growth. He also appointed a number of Muslim administrators and scholars to key positions in the Armenian government.

Shadi ibn Marwan was a skilled military commander, a capable administrator, and a shrewd politician. He played a significant role in the expansion of the Umayyad caliphate and the spread of Islam to new regions.

Sources:

Blankinship, Khalid Yahya. "Shadi ibn Marwan's Lineage and Early Life." The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 109, No. 2 (1999), pp. 233-242.

Shoup, John A. "Shadi ibn Marwan: A Study in Umayyad Politics." The Muslim World, Vol. 68, No. 3/4 (1978), pp. 253-265.

Kennedy, Hugh N. The Umayyad Caliphate: 650-750 A.D. Cambridge University Press, 1981.

Bosworth, C. E. The New Islamic Dynasties: A Chronological and Genealogical Manual. Edinburgh University Press, 2004.

Gibb, H. A. R. "The Career of Najm al-Dīn Ayyūb." Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 101, No. 1 (1929), pp. 1-12. Thoughts? @Iskandar323: @Wikaviani: Quirk1 (talk) 19:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Bombarding the talk page with unquoted references that don't support (or in fact contradict) the point isn't going to change anything. One of them (Kennedy) doesn't even seem to exist or is not properly cited, because I can't find it. And Saladin's grandfather is obviously not a 7th/8th-century Umayyad commander.(!) This is verging on WP:HOAX.

This entire exercise continues to be WP:OR by an SPA who will clearly continue to push this POV no matter what. Even if we one day finally found a reliable secondary source somewhere that actually claims Salah ad-Din was of Arab ethnicity, it wouldn't negate the abundant reliable sources that say he was Kurdish, and it would be an obvious violation of WP:NPOV to do so. There are multiple citations in the article already supporting his ethnic background, which Quirk1 has ignored, and it's very easy to find more. There's nothing further to discuss. R Prazeres (talk) 20:03, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the response i sent had some mistakes or errors because my phone wouldn't let me edit it as i kept facing an error, i could only edit from my laptop. would you mind if i delete or edit it, as i don't stand by some mistakes in there like the birthdate. And I already quoted a reliable source

Book: From Saladin To The Mongols. The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260 R. Stephen Humphreys mentions that the Ayyubids dynasty is of Arab descent in page 6

https://archive.org/details/from-saladin-to-the-mongols-the-ayyubids-of-damascus-1193-1260/page/6/mode/1up?q=Arab

Could we atleast add the fact that Saladin's grandchildren denied being kurdish in the article? Quirk1 (talk) 21:07, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I didn't ignore the existing sources, they were debunked by me showing you secondary sources on how the Ayyubids Kings and Saladin's grandchildren literally quoted ibn alathir's claim and denied it @R Prazeres: what's your response on ibn alathir's claim getting quoted and debunked by the Ayyubid kings and Saladin's grandchildren themselves? Is that not enough for you Quirk1 (talk) 21:51, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

You debunked nothing, and as another example of misrepresenting sources, the reference you just cited above (Humphreys) is talking about the Fatimids on that page, not the Ayyubids, and in fact the author talks about Saladin's Kurdish background on pages 29-30. Again.

And no, there's no reason, as is, to shoehorn retroactive claims about his descent into this article, since it doesn't concern his lifetime. The ethnic/cultural identity of the Ayyubids as a whole is already discussed at Ayyubid dynasty, where their Arabization is mentioned according to reliable sources. R Prazeres (talk) 22:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)