Talk:Frank Zappa

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Frank Zappa is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 4, 2008.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 29, 2005	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
May 12, 2006	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
November 28, 2006	Good article nominee	Not listed
December 21, 2006	Good article nominee	Not listed
May 5, 2007	Good article nominee	Not listed
January 7, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed
August 12, 2008	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
September 11, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
September 24, 2008	Featured article candidate	Promoted
July 31, 2017	Featured article review	Kept
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on December 4, 2020.
Current status: Featured article

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Musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader

Someone had turned "singer-songwriter, musician" into "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader", which was accepted by myself and by user Justiyaya. This is was reverted ([1]) by user Wretchskull (talk · contribs) per wp:UNDUE. I don't think there's anything undue about the phrase musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader. On the contrary, these attributes are overwhelmingly supported by the article. So I undid the undo ([2]). Other comments welcome. - DVdm (talk) 16:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping DVdm, please note (for anyone joining the discussion) that there is a huge section up above saying why bandleader belongs in the lead (thank you Herostratus). Justi yaya 17:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mnmn, the noted singer-songwriter Frank Zappa... I honestly feel that if we try to put him in in with like Lobo (musician) and Neil Diamond and Christopher Cross etc. we'd risk calling forth a nameless shapeless wrath that might consume the universe. I can't think of a more misleading way to characterize Zappa... Heh I'm imagining him onstage alone on a stool in a spotlight and strumming away at "Time In A Bottle"... oof. Yes sure this is an accurate image to put in the reader's mind... I suppose "Frank Zappa was a musician, composer, guitarist, and potato ricer (a kitchen implement used to process potatoes by forcing them through a sheet of small holes)" would be a little more misleading. Sorry, this just gave me the giggles.

My thought remains that "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" works fine, not broke, don't fix. (But if we've got the hood open anyway, I'd prefer "guitarist, composer, songwriter, bandleader" because he really was a virtuoso guitarist I think. However, it's fine either way, don't worry about it. (My thought process being: whatever "musician" might mean, we've already spun off songwriter, bandleader, and composer, so what's left is his instruments and singing I guess?. But didn't he have other people do a fair amount of the singing? Even when not he just wasn't noted for his singing but he was for his playing. But whatever.) Herostratus (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" Dr.bobbs (talk) 14:54, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Composer, guitarist, bandleader" would be more accurate. For starters, Zappa considered himself a composer first and foremost (says so in his autobiography). He composed large symphonic works. And rock music. And jazz. And a few other things. But composition was central: everything else was to support his composition habit.

Once you have "composer", songwriter is implicit in that. True, not all composers are songwriters, necessarily, but all songwriters are composers.

"Musician" is both over-general, and redundant. Could one possible be a composer, a guitarist, and a bandleader, (and a songwriter), and NOT be a "musician"?

74.95.43.253 (talk) 01:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, afaic, we can leave the musician aside. I'll make the change and we can keep it. After possible further discussion here, we can revert. - DVdm (talk) 14:19, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He was a composer first and foremost! 2A00:23C6:CC8B:9601:6176:3FA9:76CE:1C0C (talk) 06:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

phrasing, "uses conventions" versus "conventional"

@24.143.103.204, I asked you to please discuss your thoughts here before continuing to make changes. You're misunderstanding my point: Zappa did use existing conventions in unconventional ways. An artist can be unconventional in the way they use conventions. He wrote down his thoughts with (mostly) conventional music notation, for example.
I am worried that your particular phraseology is overly narrow, and may impact the meaning of the article in a way that's neither neutral nor represented by sources. Remsense留 07:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Subpage time?

Ban evasion by User:Sugar Bear, using Washington state IPs.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This article is getting very long, especially for a featured article. It was just a hair under 11k words upon FAR in 2017, and is now over my personal pigheaded bright line of 12k where I put my foot down and say "I don't care what the article is about, it's obviously too long". It seems to me that a lot of the detail regarding his work is notable enough to be viable as subpages—cf. Beethoven's musical style, Beethoven's compositional method. Thoughts? Remsense诉 20:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

YES! Finally! This article is way too long. It still has parts that are poorly written, inaccurate, repetitive and or overly verbose. It can be tightened up. There is still a lot of trivial and or unsourced information that should be removed. Trivial info can be moved to other articles or deleted entirely.24.143.118.36 (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You've been doing a lot of work on it, do you have suggestions for what could be split out first? Remsense诉 20:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain what you mean by "split out"? Do you mean making new articles?

One thing that definitely needs to go is just about any quote about Zappa's music from Robert Christgau. He clearly is highly biased and has little or no understanding of FZ's music. He is one of those people who is responsible for spreading a lot of false impressions. He described Bongo Fury as "sentimental", which may the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say about FZ's music. The amount of sentimental FZ music is at or near zero. Kelly Fisher Lowe isn't exactly a widely recognized music expert as Christgau is (ha ha), but he is a musician who understands FZ's music. I would like to find other writers to quote who are similar to Kelly but more widely recognized.24.143.118.36 (talk) 20:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes—see WP:SPLIT into subpages, like History of music is from Music. Remsense诉 22:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Greek and Arab descent"

Ban evasion by User:Sugar Bear, using Washington state IPs.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I want to thank 93.66.85.208 for once again removing the reference to "Greek and Arab descent". FZ's father was born in Sicily to a family of Sicilian descent. It is really very misleading to say that FZ was of "Greek and Arab descent". Nearly all Sicilians actually have some level of "Greek and Arab descent", especially going back 2,000 years or more. They also have a lot of other influences that were never mentioned in the article. See the article on Sicilians. They have had their own language and culture for a very long time. When FZ said he had "Greek and Arab descent" he was merely describing most Sicilians in general, not himself or his family in particular. The people of Rome today are radically different, ethnically, linguistically and culturally that the ancient Romans. Same difference. Please stop re-adding "Greek and Arab descent" back into the article.24.143.109.40 (talk) 20:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the removal again. That content is explicitly and perfectly sourced in the article. - DVdm (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain "content is explicitly and perfectly sourced" in contrast to evidence to the contrary in the Wikipedia article on Sicilians.

It's fine to quote FZ in context but he was definitely not an expert on Sicilian history. The previous editor 93.66.85.208 has previously edited articles on Italian culture and may have actually had a good reason for editing the article. I don't claim to be an expert but I do read history. Perhaps DVdm can learn something from an Italian or someone who is an expert.

Read the cited source: it says "My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French.". - Don't revert again. - DVdm (talk) 22:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent. The article says that "his father, whose name was anglicized to Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, near Palermo on the Italian island of Sicily, and was of Greek and Arab descent. - DVdm (talk) 23:09, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is what the cited source says: "My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French. My mother's mother was French and Sicilian, and her Dad was Italian (from Naples). She was first generation. The Greek-Arab side is from my Dad. He was born in a Sicilian village called Partinico, and came over on one of the immigrant boats when he was a kid." - DVdm (talk) 23:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Someone is not listening and not talking to Sicilians. You have ignored the fact that the cited source is not an expert on Sicilian history or ancestry. If you are unable to support your argument it is not valid. I will agree to change it to say something like "Zappa emphasized the Greek and Arabic aspects of his Sicilian ancestry." The problem is that he left out the many other parts of his Sicilian ancestry as explained in the article about Sicilians which you have not read.24.143.109.40 (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent."

This is false. It makes no sense unless you are trying to argue that FZ was not the son of his father. Please stop lying about what is in the article. Here is the quote from the article. Maybe you didn't read it: Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, near Palermo on the Italian island of Sicily, and was of Greek and Arab descent.

Please indent your talk page messages as outlined in wp:THREAD and wp:INDENT — See Help:Using talk pages. Thanks.

Yes, the descent is indeed in the lead. I was looking at the version before I undid the removal. In the original, long standing version, there is a note explaining it. And of course, if your father is of some descent, you obviously are as well. There really is no problem here. If you don't agree, there's always wp:DR. - DVdm (talk) 08:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just peachy-keen

"Zappa died from prostate cancer on December 4, 1993, at his home with his wife and children by his side." Just one big happy, eh? Maybe you should add a little info from Moon Zappa's new memoir. 2600:1012:A023:8AD6:2163:1DA:7D4C:C88F (talk) 02:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Financial Status at Death

I saw an interview with Moon that her father died deeply in debt. I did not see a mention of that in the article. Should a note on that be added to the article?

Seki1949 (talk) 08:38, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bike playing career

I have located an old blog post about his appearance on the Steve Allen show. https://www.afka.net/Articles/2002-00_Jerry_Hopkins.htm I think it might deserve a spot on here. Twineeea (talk) 03:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A better source would be needed, as blogs aren't generally WP:reliable sources, and material not mentioned in reliable sources shouldn't be in the article. Remsense ‥ 论 04:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

there is a video(s) on Youtube. Twineeea (talk) 00:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/frank-zappa-plays-the-bicycle-steve-allen-show-1963/ Twineeea (talk) 01:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox photo needs to be changed

This photo is color and objectively better than the infobox photo currently used. It is higher quality, and it was restored by me this morning. Wcamp9 (talk) 21:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with the current image. - FlightTime (open channel) 22:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You just put that on literally every single post I made, probably without looking at a single one of the images. First of all, why isn't color better. The last image is lower quality, this is objctively better Wcamp9 (talk) 00:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wcamp9: I disagree with all your infobox image proposals, regardless of how I phrase it. - FlightTime (open channel) 14:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your opinions too, but they are yours so I do not care anymore Wcamp9 (talk) 14:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why does it "need" to be changed? That is a very strong statement; is there something horribly, horribly wrong with it? I find the current one is better than the one you proposed. Mathglot (talk) 05:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]