Talk:Kremenchuk shopping mall attack

Censorship?

Why is there active censorship on Wikipedia, with a blanket ban on sources from one side in conflict? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.47.80.75 (talk) 18:25, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

RT and Sputnik are deprecated sources on Wikipedia and should not be used. Of RIA Novosti on the same page "opinions generally lean towards unreliability". However, Russian sources are quoted in reliable sources (like The New York Times) and these mentions can be used. Philip Cross (talk) 18:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

So there is censorship on Wikipedia since You decide that RT and Sputnik are “deprecated”… nice. Calimero (talk) 10:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The New York times is not propaganda outlet but “reliable” source. Or like The Guardian… Just take a look at OffGuardian wikipedia article. Ops! There is no OffGuardian wiki page! Censorship again. For all sane people: do search for Off-Guardian dot org. Calimero (talk) 10:51, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

"Censorship" does not mean "we use garbage sources". Volunteer Marek 18:48, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

We can see here the difference.

An USA editor supports Russian propaganda.

No Russian editor supports US propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 06:18, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

mall not factory

EVERY single source reports this as a missile strike on a shopping mall. Trying to pretend that this was an attack on a factory, as User:RandomPotato123 (just registered SPA) did here is an obvious attempt to push Russian POV here. Volunteer Marek 18:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

factory too was hit.. there are aftermath photos & videos RandomPotato123 (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

All reliable sources describe it as an attack on a shopping mall. You really shouldn't immediately jump into controversial topics right after registering an account and making less than a dozen edits. Volunteer Marek 18:47, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

They fired two missiles. One hit the shopping mall, but the sources give different versions about 2nd missile. Some say factory building [1]. Other say sports arena [2]. My very best wishes (talk) 18:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

sources (western media) does say what the 2nd missile hit.. there are even CCTV footages RandomPotato123 (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Mall and a factory (about 560 metres (0.35 mi) apart); and a team bus on a nearby stadium was “affected” too; so far as I know.☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 19:19, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

References

A search for "Kredmasha" does not bring up a single reliable source. No "Kredmasha" or factory mentioned. No "Kredmasha" or factory mentioned. No "Kredmahsa" or factory mentioned. Etc. etc. etc. Volunteer Marek 19:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Официальный сайт ЧАО «Кредмаш» (Частное акционерное общество "Кременчугский завод дорожных машин "КРЕДМАШ" = Official website of PrJSC «Kredmash») ☆☆☆—Pietadè^Talk 19:29, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

"The video, which was analyzed by The New York Times, shows one strike hitting near or at the mall, while the second hits an industrial site next to the mall. The industrial site is operated by Kredmash, a manufacturer of asphalt-mixing plants, and Ukrainian authorities have said that it did not serve any military purpose." [3]. My very best wishes (talk) 20:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

But the page should be named "Kremenchuk shopping mall attack" because this is how it was named and covered in RS. My very best wishes (talk) 20:18, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The User:RandomPotato123 is surprisingly experienced, his fist 'Move' after 17 edits. Is there some royal way to editing ? (allegedly Euclid)Xx236 (talk) 06:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2022

thumb

the phrase "The second missile struck the Kredmash road machinery plant to the north of the mall.[18] The Kredmash plant had been involved in the repair of armored personnel carriers (BTR-70s) in 2014.[19]" should be:

"Following to the Russian Defense Ministry official statement, the second missile struck the Kredmash road machinery plant to the north of the mall.[18] The Kredmash plant had been involved in the repair of armored personnel carriers (BTR-70s) in 2014.[19]

In fact, the first missile struck the shopping mall directly. The aerial photos ("Ruins of the building") precisely show the impact crater of the missile in the center of the building and the perimeter of the resulting shock-wave. The second missile struck the city sports stadium, also the civilian object." Arturpio (talk) 03:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Nope, newly released satelite pics reveal that the missile was struck at the backside of the mall and there are not crater visible in the centre RandomPotato123 (talk) 07:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The missle struck where a railway line that circles around the mall branches off into the factory. You can see the difference in the before and after satellite photos. A patch of trees between two tracks is just gone. 95.29.167.51 (talk) 10:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Also the second missile struck the factory on the back of the mall and the impact crater is visible on the footage released by Ukrainian media RandomPotato123 (talk) 07:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Do I understand you correctly - People who die from a backside struck are happy to be not hit directly? Are 20 dead civilian acceptable for you? How many were inacceptable? Who needs The shopping centre was 'non-functioning' lies? https://www.bbc.com/news/61967480 Xx236 (talk) 08:55, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

There is a video on this wiki article which shows the missile strike, consider watching it and compare the video with google maps (satellite view) if you can't accept the fact that missile hit the backside of the mall. Also zelensky said they there were 1000 people on the mall. If the missile striked at the centre then the death toll will be more than 100 not 20.. what actually happened is the missile striked at the back and the fire spreaded RandomPotato123 (talk) 10:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with presenting the "Russian Defense Ministry official statement" to clarify that their version is at variance with the Ukrainian account (which seems to be better supported by the evidence). Those two statements currently look like incontrovertible facts. What do other editors think? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:13, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I added it yesterday but the other editors removed it also a Wikipedia admin with Ukrainian flag on his user page threatened me with ban RandomPotato123 (talk) 10:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm all for Ukrainian flags, as the Ukrainian people have been the victims of a wholly unprovoked and senseless brutal attack on their lives by a megalomaniac monster. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:11, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Is this a wikipedia or a place for wartime propaganda? 95.29.167.51 (talk) 10:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It's a place for facts. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:28, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

And the "facts" is what "victims" of "megalomaniac monster" say. Got it! Thanks for clearing things up. 95.29.167.51 (talk) 10:34, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

They won't be saying anything. They're dead. "Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov said that "Russian Aerospace Forces delivered strikes by precision weapons against hangars of US and EU weapons and ammunition in Kremenchug near Poltava" These are just plain facts too, are they? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I totally agree with you but the admin threatening a normal user for providing facts looks weird RandomPotato123 (talk) 11:56, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

the missile hit the far end of the mall according to Interior Minister Denys Monastyrsky. The missile never hit the centre

https://kyivindependent.com/national/minister-says-at-least-18-killed-seven-body-fragments-found-after-russian-missile-strike-on-kremenchuk-mall RandomPotato123 (talk) 12:36, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I assume you mean "far end of the shopping mall"? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:56, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah you're right, it was a typing mistake. I'm sorry RandomPotato123 (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

so it seems. in the CCTV video the first missile is seen falling between the trees or a little further. in the later comparative satellite images before-after, the place around the railway lines that pass through there are seen as the point of radial destruction, I have not yet seen clear images of that place from the ground, such as those of the place of impact of the second missile to the north. In the images taken from drones, after the fire was extinguished, the entire interior structure of the shopping is observed intact, except for two walls in the northeast corner, the closest to the point of impact, those closest missing in the image "Ruins of the building ". Can someone find those satellite images of both impacts and incorporate them into the article? they are illustrative 152.206.230.63 (talk) 18:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Who killed the civilians?

Allegedly 52nd Heavy Bomber Aviation Regiment.Xx236 (talk) 11:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC) https://apolline-petit.com/the-shelling-of-the-shopping-center-in-kremenchuk-was-carried-out-by-the-pilots-of-the-52nd-guards-aviation-regiment-informnapalm-photo Xx236 (talk) 11:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

The nearest article seems to be 22nd Guards Heavy Bomber Aviation Division. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

"Debunked claims"??

You cannot say "claims have been debunked" without giving referanse to the claim or the evidence supposedly debunking it. Villekrokodille (talk) 10:22, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

There are three separate sources supporting that claim. Which do you dispute? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:52, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

See here (fact checking). My very best wishes (talk) 11:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

One more surprisingly competent User:Villekrokodille. It is his first time!Xx236 (talk) 11:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

A coordinated attack from Russia (95.29.167.51), and new users Villekrokodille, RandomPotato. Some people do not believe in such coincidences.Xx236 (talk) 11:28, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

If you have strong doubts, you could request a WP:SPI? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe because some things doesn't add up. I accept that Russians striked the mall and they are responsible for it but i don't agree that they intentionally did it. They targeted the factory. Out of the 2 missiles, one of them missed and hit the nearby mall. This is what I believe. This is also the conclusion of Pro-Ukrainian sources including the journalist Julian Röpcke who is a hardcore Ukraine supporter.

Well the western media took this up and made it look like Russians did it intentionally. Which is followed by many people RandomPotato123 (talk) 12:04, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Why did they target the factory? What about the football stadium? "Russia's defence ministry later officially admitted responsibility for the attack but said that it hit a weapons depot in a nearby factory and the detonation of munitions caused the fire in the shopping centre" - what do make of that claim? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:11, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Which football stadium are you talking about? I've never seen a major Ukrainian News agency claiming a stadium was struck.(I follow the news from Kyiv Independent). Russians targeted the factory because they believed there were weapons in that factory.

Also ,today Interior Minister of Ukraine Denys Monastyrsky said that the missile struck at the far end of the mall. The far end of the mall and the factory is divided by just a single railway line. So the chances of missile missing the target is really high and one cannot rule that out RandomPotato123 (talk) 12:30, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

There are many news reports of the football stadium also being damaged. So were there weapons in that asphalt factory? Is that why the shopping mall caught fire? As usual that looks to me like a handy combination of lies and bullshit. And then we have the claim that the shopping mall was "unused"? What utter rubbish. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:37, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes there are many reports but the stadium isn't in Kremenchuk, it's in Mykolaiv. Why are you trying to combine two different strikes that happened on different time on different places??

Still finding it hard to accept facts? RandomPotato123 (talk) 13:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Here's one of the reports. Can you point out which bits are not true? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:55, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

there is only minimal damage caused by after effects of second strike. If you go to Google maps , you can see that the stadium situtates near to the factory. About 200-250 meters away from the factory. Well, the damage was caused by the after effects of the second strike. Also no major Ukrainian news agency has claimed a missile striked that stadium RandomPotato123 (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

So I'm "trying to combine two different strikes that happened on different time on different places??" Martinevans123 (talk) 14:25, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

No you aren't but there wasn't any missile strike on stadium, it was just the after effects of the strike on the factory RandomPotato123 (talk) 14:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Just another accident. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, UK MoD said the strike on the mall could've been accidental PaulT2022 (talk) 12:37, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

They say it's a possibility, because the planners are prepared to accept "a high level of collateral damage" i.e. civilian shoppers getting blown to pieces, crushed by slabs of concrete or burnt alive. And it seems their assessment of what was in the factory was totally wrong to start with. Oh dear, sorry, just a nasty accident. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:45, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Kredmash: BTR-70s

There appears to be no mention of BTR-70s in the citation for the claim that they were repaired at Kredmash. Can someone with Russian check this please? Possibly not RSS. Thanks. Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:20, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It's Ukrainan and says "three repaired BTR-70s (три відремонтованих БТР-70)" in the last paragraph. No opinion on the source. Sjö (talk) 18:02, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It says: "Раніше працівники Кременчуцького заводу дорожніх машин "Кредмаш" передали бійцям з 92 окремої механізованої бригади Сухопутних військ Збройних Сил України три відремонтованих БТР-70." It can be translated as following: "Before that, workers of the Kredmash plant gave three repaired BTR-70s to the soldiers of the 92nd Separate Mechanized Brigade of Ukrainian Ground Forces". It most likely implies that these BTRs were repaired at this factory in 2014, but I am not sure about its relevance to the current events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.255.131.2 (talk) 13:40, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

The "relevance" is that this was the excuse given for targeting it, by the Russian authorities, (in one of their later narratives)? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:43, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Correct the coordinates of the fall of the second rocket

The second rocket hit the passage between the shop of the plant "Kredmash" and the greenhouse 49.07437°N 33.42795°E / 49.07437; 33.42795 500 m from the shopping center. The latest video in the article of a local newspaper: https://poltava.to/news/66741/ 91.210.248.237 (talk) 19:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Changed it RandomPotato123 (talk) 01:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

A suggestion

I think we need a page Russian missile attacks on Ukraine similar to Iraqi rocket attacks on Israel. The missiles became a weapon of choice to attack civilians/genocide during this war. See pages in Category:Russian war crimes in Ukraine and Category:War crimes during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. My very best wishes (talk) 04:48, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Surprisingly, many Russian companies and their owners and CEO who produce such missiles and other weapons were not even sanctioned, apparently due to their business connections [4]. My very best wishes (talk) 02:24, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I guess Russia has a huge stockpile of missiles like the Kh-22, a cold-war weapon with very poor accuracy. They might as well use them up on civilian urban areas where they end up destroying something, even if it's not what they really intended. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:24, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Russia presumably has 3,000 such missiles [5]. According to Ukrainian military analyst Oleh Zhdanov, the missile can self-correct to hit a ship or a large building. My very best wishes (talk) 03:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

the Kh-22 do not have "low precision". they are guided by an inertial navigation system towards the target, once close, it activates the radar (thus avoiding being detected earlier) heading directly to the target (which can try to deceive or destroy it with countermeasures/defense). in this case they could only use inertial guidance, the radar is not prepared for land attack. The INS of these older missiles by itself does not have high accuracy but being the factory a big target, perhaps it was given as enough. 152.206.230.63 (talk) 18:29, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Air Raid Response

I think removal of the mention of mall administration preventing evacuation was wrong, as Ukrainian authorities have apparently confirmed that the messages were real and are seeking to prosecute the owners https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-06-28-22/h_40185a3b4c87d8f5a964fe652f11bacd PaulT2022 (talk) 18:31, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Tend to agree. But do we know if there was an air-raid alert and when it was sounded? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Apparently yes: “There was an air raid warning a few minutes beforehand, and I stepped outside the building to have a smoke,” said Alexander, 33, who declined to give his surname. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/06/28/hardly-anybody-left-alive-locals-fear-worst-friends-trapped/ PaulT2022 (talk) 22:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Then that's essential context. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:14, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

 Added PaulT2022 (talk) 09:21, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I reverted this for reasons explained in my edit summaries. Yes, the store remained open despite of the alarms because the administration and shoppers could not imagine they would be target of such attack. This is all. My very best wishes (talk) 15:58, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes I think the 'because' part is a synthesis not supported by any sources.

Rent in malls typically consists of a fixed portion and revenue share, and the contracts stipulate sanctions up to eviction for stores that aren't open in the hours of operation. So, as grim as it is, it isn't inconceivable that greed on the part of mall owners played a role, and shopkeepers didn't have a choice but to remain inside as their livelihood depends on being able to rent retail space from this mall.

Given that the mayor chose to talk about this in several interviews, and that the requests from mall administration were reported by several media, I don't see a reason why this shouldn't be mentioned in some way as lack of evacuation clearly affected number of casualties, according to survivors' interviews in The Telegraph. PaulT2022 (talk) 16:51, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

You may be right. But, of course, how many shoppers would have successfully evacuated "within a few minutes" is also just WP:OR/ synthesis. From the survivor's statements, it sounds like many shoppers would have chosen to remain in the centre, even if the shops had closed, believing it to be safer than going outside. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

There's a source for this: Zelenskyy said on Telegram that there were more than 1,000 civilians inside the mall just prior to the attack, though most had managed to be evacuated after air raid sirens sounded. (https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-carrie-out-missile-strike-ukrainian-shopping-center-say-zelenskyy/) PaulT2022 (talk) 17:13, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

That's a very pertinent point, that I as unware of. I certainly think that should be added. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:18, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Also this [6]. Of course the intended target can be disputed/debatable, however, when someone uses such imprecise but very powerful missiles in a highly populated area, hitting a civilian target is nearly a 100% certainty, and people who sent the missile knew it. In that sense, hitting civilian targets was unquestionably an intention. Both buildings hit by these missiles were civilian buildings. My very best wishes (talk) 16:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, that's why the G7 leaders have described it as a war crime. Zelenskyy said: "Only completely heartless terrorists, who should have no place on earth, can strike missiles at such an object. And this is not a mistaken hit by missiles, this is a calculated Russian strike at this shopping centre." So those who chose the target would have calculated that the shopping centre fell within the area of probability of the point of impact. And they must have decided that was wholly acceptable. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Martinevans123 I'm sorry, but you're misattributing this quote: it's from the Zelensky's address, not from the G7 statement. As far as I understand, his opinion remains the sole source for stating that the mall was the target.

I agree with the area of probability argument though; perhaps something like "Target: Central Kremenchuk" would be a better way to communicate that Russian military had no idea where exactly the missiles would land while staying true to the sources. PaulT2022 (talk) 17:00, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Or maybe "Target: Asphalt factory, that might have been a target 8 years ago, which was our latest intel." I have now attributed the long quote. But the Sky News headline is still "Ukraine: World leaders condemn shopping centre attack in Kremenchuk, calling it a 'war crime'". Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 17:06, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

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