Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 9

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Sean Manning

I was about to remove the following text: [Taagepera's] studies of ancient empires were published in 1978 and 1979, and do not always reflect the current state of knowledge., but Britishfinance beat me to it.

There are several issues with it. Most importantly, the source is WP:SELFPUBLISHED – it's a blog. Per WP:BLOGS, Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications., but as far as I can tell this does not pass that test (the author Sean Manning is, per the blog's about page, an academic who has done work mainly on the Achaemenid Empire and His words on this blog are his own opinion, backed by his judgement as a scholar not by an organization or institution.). What's more, the text that was removed makes a stronger—or at the very least broader—statement than the source, which mostly focuses on the Medes (though it also touches upon some other such as the Achaemenid Empire). I'm also not a big fan of the way it was phrased, as it doesn't clearly convey that the study of more recent political entities was published way later in 1997, though that could have been fixed by rephrasing it, I suppose.

To the extent that these sources are not up-to-date because academic consensus has changed since they were published, the proper course of action is to cite academic sources stating as much. TompaDompa (talk) 22:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The blog post cites two articles by Turchin, Adams, and Hall which add 9 or 10 empires to Taagepera's list, five of which fall in the period covered by Taagepera 1978 and 1979 (the medieval and modern ones are Hsi-Hsia and Kara-Khitai and Second Ghaznavid in Central Asia, Maratha in India, Srivijaya in Indonesia). That is evidence that the articles from the 1970s do not always reflect current knowledge. Maybe we should cite those articles instead?

Some of their additions, like Axum, are not currently on Wikipedia's list. Vagans2019 (talk) 09:15, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

We already cite Turchin et al. Axum is on the list, but spelled differently (Kingdom of Aksum). TompaDompa (talk) 13:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

You cite them, but you don't cite them for saying "we believe Taagepera 1978, 1979, and 1997 catalogue about 86% of Eurasian empires until 1800." They chose to trust his estimates of area, but investigate his lists, and they found 63 or 64 large empires where he listed 54. Doesn't that make it plausible that if they had investigated areas, their estimates would be different too? But I don't know of a modern book which estimates the area of the Median empire, they just list places or provide a sketch map.Vagans2019 (talk) 20:14, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Regarding this edit: You're still using the same (unreliable) source, only now you're using WP:Close paraphrasing while neither citing the source nor attributing the material to it. This is not acceptable. Per WP:PLAGIARISM, Summarizing a source in your own words, without citing the source in any way, may also be a form of plagiarism, as well as a violation of the Verifiability policy. Moreover, the source is incorrect in claiming Turchin [et al.] [...] added 8 to [Taagepera's] list in their 2006 article (Axum in East Africa, Hsi-Hsia and Kara-Khitai in Central Asia, Srivijaya in South-East Asia, and Maurian, Kushan, Gupta, and Maratha in South Asia, total 62 empires), and the 2009 article adds two empires (Hepalthite Huns and Scythia), deletes one (Srivijaya), and splits another (the Ghaznavids) into two entries with the same name, total 64 empires.; Kara-Khitai (also known as Qara Khitai and Western Liao) is found here (called "W. Liao"), Maurian is found here (called "Maurya"), Kushan is found here, Gupta is found here, and Hepalthite Huns is found here (called "White Huns (Heptitalites)"). I can appreciate what you're trying to do, but it needs to be done properly. TompaDompa (talk) 16:09, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

When it comes to the Medes, this source and this source seem like good places to start. TompaDompa (talk) 00:30, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

No, I checked the German atlas and Amélie Kuhrt's sourcebook myself, the first is in the nearest research library and the second is a textbook. You are right that I trusted page 221 of the 2006 freely-available article to accurately describe how their list differed from Taagepera's lists though! I can't explain why their article says they added empires which were already in Taagepera's 1979 and 1997 lists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagans2019 (talk • contribs) 09:39, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Common Errors In This Page

Hi, I am a researcher of history and ancient literature. I would like to bring many inaccuracies to your attention. First of all the total lack of variations in sources. Some errors should be specified.

First. Roman Empire, at its peak, is evaluated variously. Among all the serious estimates, there is talk between 5,700,000 and 6,500,000 sq km. Only Taagepera 5.000.000, I don't know why. I tried with a map calculator area to measure it and it is 5.807.000 kmq Trajan, 5.818.000 with vassal states, 5.900.000 Septimius Severus, 6.000.000 Septimius Severus all africa. I have read many books in which they state between 5.7 or 6.5, but I think the most realistic, although I have made a measure rounded down, 5.8 million kmq. Adrian, or as it was before Trajan, is 5.3 or 5.4 kmq.

Sources with Roman empire at 6.5 Britain's Imperial Administrators, 1858-1966, by A. Kirk-Greene, pag. 23. War, by DK, pag.43. A Companion to the Roman Empire, by David S. Potter, pag. 285 (in this 3.500.000 miles square but inclusive mare nostrum) World History to 1500: To 1500, by William J. Duiker, Jackson J. Spielvogel, (in this 3.500.000 miles square but I think inclusive mare nostrum) Australian History Series: The ancient world, by Fiona Back, pag. 14. Ancient Rome: Facts at Your Fingertips, by DK, pag. 147.

Second. The Xiongnu confedaration. It is a confederation of nomadic tribes, so a state cannot be considered properly.Its extension is more like patchy than wildfire. So the measurements is very diffuclts. If you use a map area calculator, its maximum is 5.2 or 5.5 million, but no more. Many books have 5.2 or 5.5. But 9 million is simply crazy. Furthermore, it should be specified that the territory is in a patchy way with few scattered people. As well as it is a confederation, something very different from the united state.

Third. The Han empire. the western hans are 3.4 million sq km, without the west, but with the west it is 4.0 or 4.2 sq km. You can use a map area calculator, or, among other thousands of sources, Westermann Großer Atlas zur Weltgeschichte by Stier. The han empir eastern is 4.600.000 kmq, via map area calculator, using a map much larger than its real extent.

Fourth. The Mongolian empire, after the death of Genghis Khan, divides, giving rise to separate states. Same situation as the birth of the Hellenistic kingdoms. There could be an alliance between them, but it can no longer be considered a single state.

Fifth. The British Empire is really the most extensive. But its size is twenty percent of the world's lands. Not more. It should also be specified the territory directly under their power, specify the protectorates, which are not their domain, as well as the various dominions, technically not part of the empire, but inserted in a sort of alliance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.49.113.85 (talk) 11:35, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Does this article really make sense?

Does anybody really know how far north into the tundra and wilderness the Mongol Empire stretched? Does anybody really have any clue how much territory the Hunnic kings actually controlled away from the Roman borders? And is it even possible to measure half these empires? The USSR had a certain size, but what of all those parts of Eastern Europe that were de facto controlled from Moscow? Do they count or do they not? When evaluating the size of the Roman or Persian empires, do vassal states like Armenia count or not? Is this even a yes or not question - I mean, do we really know which parts of these empires were “vassals” and which were “legitimate territory”? Is there really a binary, easy-to-spot difference between a “governor/satrap” and a “vassal/allied king” or isn't this difference more one of degrees - and if it's one of degrees, how on earth do we define where e.g. the Persian Empires started and ended? Were most ancient empires not actually just a whole bunch of vassals arranged under a universal ruler - a king of kings - with varying degrees of control? Which parts of the Aztec or Mongol empires were ‘vassals’ and which were under ‘direct control’? Was ANY part actually under ‘direct control?’ Plenty of local rulers will pragmatically have sent courteous letters to great conquerors, acknowledging their supremacy, and then gone on ruling their own little fiefdoms quite independently - when do that kind of people count as imperial subjects and when don't they?

Or to sum up all these questions: is it actually possible to measure the sizes of half of these empires (or define what constituted their “borders”?) the way this article purports to do?

PS. all these questions quadruple in force when you get back into the Bronze Age! Who on earth knows where the borders of the Elamite Empire were???!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.136.198 (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

New sections go at the bottom of the page, for the record. These are good and important questions, and if you're interested in finding out how scholars go about it, I can recommend reading these papers by Rein Taagepera (the principal source for this article), where he outlines the methods and definitions he uses. In particular, I'd draw your attention to this passage from the latter: the color patches in historical atlases indicate a widespread belief that some territories can be assigned to some political entities, from 3000 BC on, and this notion has been extended to the populations of these areas in atlases of population history (e.g., McEvedy and Jones, 1978). There is fair agreement among the atlases on the identity and extent of the attributions, reflecting some consensus among the historians more generally. An imperfect but operational definition for the present purposes might be that polities are indicated by the different colored patches in historical atlases. This is less flippant than it may sound. We often have a consensus on recognizing features (e.g., human faces) that we cannot easily define. TompaDompa (talk) 20:33, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Map

I was thinking a single map showing both the British and Mongol Empires at their respective maximum extents would be a nice fit for the Largest empires by land area section, seeing as we already note that The British Empire is the largest empire by total size, though its constituent units are discontinuous across oceans, whilst the Mongolian Empire is the largest contiguous empire, being one entity in Eurasia. I wasn't able to find a map like that over at WP:COMMONS, and I don't have the skills to make one myself, so I have added a request for such a map to this talk page. Thoughts? TompaDompa (talk) 00:39, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

@Nagihuin: I see that you have experience making historical maps and have been active on this page. Would you be willing to help out with this? TompaDompa (talk) 17:26, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I did this long ago: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Largest_empires_in_history_including_claims.png?uselang=es , take a look, Nagihuin (talk) 20:33, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

That's a bit cluttered and doesn't really match this article (it includes Antarctic claims and sea claims, for instance). I was thinking of something more along the lines merging this map and this map (or whichever the two most accurate maps happen to be). TompaDompa (talk) 23:12, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@Nagihuin: What do you think? TompaDompa (talk) 00:27, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Portuguese vs. Brazilian empire and Umayyad vs. Abbasid dynasty

Hello, there's some noticeably big mistakes in the list. Firstly how is the Portuguese colonial empire has only 5.5M km² land compared to Brazilian empire's 8.2M km²? The entire Brazil was under Portuguese empire. The total should be around 10.4M km². Also the Umayyad Dynasty had a larger territory than the later Abbasid dynasty. Most of the sources show Umayyads had 15.3M km². After Abbasids took over the caliphate, the far eastern regions including Spain became independent Muslim territories. I request the admins to check the problems and solve it with some research. Also please make a separate list for non-colonial empires. Ishan87 (talk) 21:46, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

First off, I turned this into a new, separate section. The Portuguese Empire vs. Empire of Brazil thing has been raised numerous times before. Here's what the cited source says about the former:

Portugal

Date	Area	Source	Notes
1820	5.5	LK,E	Effective control over coastal half of Brazil and coastal quarter of Angola and Mozambique
1822	.5		Brazil independent

And here is what the same source says about the latter:

Brazil

Date	Area	Source	Notes
1822	5.0?	LK	Independence from Portugal; about one half of the present area effectively controlled by settlers
1900	8.51		Full control of present territory

Note that this source treats the Empire of Brazil and the modern-day country of Brazil as a single continuous entity, much like it treats the Russian Empire, the USSR, and modern-day Russia as a single continuous entity. Because it does not give any value for the Empire after 1822, a different source which does is used for that entry on the list.

As for the different Caliphates, here's what the cited source says:

Islamic Caliphate

Date	Area	Source	Notes
661	6.7	E,R	Omayyid dynasty begins
700	9.0	E	E. Iran, Maghreb
720	11.1	E,Pu	Transoxania, Indus, Spain
750	11.1	E,Pu	Abbassid dynasty begins. R: 10.1
756	10.3	KH	Cordoba secedes

Feel free to provide a source for the Umayyad Caliphate having a peak area of 15.3 million km². TompaDompa (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Portuguese empire

What's happening here? The portuguese empire with 10.4 million km2 was the 10th largest empire ever. I can't understand why isn't in this list. Even Brazil empire which belonged to Portugal is in the list! This is lack of professionalism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roqui15 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

This comes up every now and then. See #Portuguese vs. Brazilian empire and Umayyad vs. Abbasid dynasty for the latest discussion. TompaDompa (talk) 05:25, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Stop with this.. just stop.. I'm not going with a 1997 article. I reckon you are brazilian and don't like Portugal. I'm sorry but this won't be like this, not in my watch. I guess we will be in this "fight" for a long long time.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roqui15 (talk • contribs) 11:49, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Knock it off with the WP:PERSONALATTACKS and please don't WP:EDITWAR. Also, please WP:SIGN your comments. The 1997 source you're referring to is a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities which outlines its sources and methodology, whereas the source you replaced it with is a book about 21st century geopolitics that also happens to have a table of historical empires' greatest extents. See WP:RSCONTEXT, which says Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. TompaDompa (talk) 12:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

There is no personal attacks, you have a personal problem with Portugal, that's it.

I studied history in college, I know what I'm saying. DId you ever heard about the united kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves? Acre state didn't belong to Portugal and some territories of Paraguai, but Uruguay and France Guinea were included in Brazil, so it makes Brazil part of Portugal as big as the empire of Brazil itself, if not bigger. Roqui15 (talk)

Roqui15, none of your arguments relate to quality independent sources (per WP:42), where as the current consensus version is sourced. You own experience in school is of no relevance to our readers. If you can’t provide quality independent sources to support your changes, they will be reverted. If you cannot conduct a calm debate about sources, then you may be restricted from editing this article. Thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 14:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Portugal,_Brazil_and_the_Algarves Here it is, wikipedia page full of sources. Please stop with this nonsense.

Roqui15 (talk)

"I studied history in college" is not a reasonable argument when faced to a contradicting peer-reviewed article written by a PhD-holding expert like Rein Taagepera. Please provide another reliable source with the relevant quote if you think that Taagepera is wrong. Alcaios (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I have enought of this. I give up, this is exactly why wikipedia will never be a reliable source of information in general. I have met dozens of historians in my life and not a single one gave this claims. You prefer to believe in a single historian over thousands. Alright this is wikipedia after all, the free encyclopedia

"I met historians" is not a reliable source. Please provide a specific study, with a quote if possible, to support your claim. Alcaios (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I just sent you the wikipedia page of the United kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves which by the looks of it is completly wrong. It seems every source in that page is unreal. Incluiding the map.. Instead of arguing with me go take a look on this topic, a quick look. You'll find out that I'm completly right

Why don't you just provide a study supporting your views instead of linking Wikipedia articles? Taagepera notes (p. 502): "1780 : 4.0 million km²? : Penetration inland", and "1820 : 5.5 million km² : Effective control over coastal half of Brazil and coastal quarter of Angola and Mozambique." Can you provide another study that contests that claim? Alcaios (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Roqui15 has (finally) proposed the following study (search "portuguese empire") to support the claim that the Portuguese Empire reached 10.4 million km2 in 1815. Now the community can engage in a proper discussion. Thank you Roqui15 for your collaborative efforts. Alcaios (talk) 15:16, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

That's not a study, that's a book. That's the source I was referring to when I said the source you replaced it with is a book about 21st century geopolitics that also happens to have a table of historical empires' greatest extents. TompaDompa (talk) 16:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Not finally, I put this book as a source since the first edition. I guess you took a look at this topic (finally). Thank you for taking a look

Roqui15 (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I still don't see your original link, so I apologize for not seeing it. PS: rest assured that a Portuguese source will not be rejected. Any source written in any language is accepted on the English Wikipedia as long as the source is reliable, independent and comprehensive enough to disclose how the author came to the result/conclusion. Alcaios (talk) 15:34, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

PS2: that means that you can provide additional references to strengthen your position. Other editors will probably answer you in the coming hours (or days); just be patient, you need to reach a consensus before definitely modifying a stable and accepted version of an article in case of an edit war/conflict (see for instance WP:BRD). Best regards, Alcaios (talk) 15:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for cooperating with me.

Roqui15 (talk) 15:52, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

So yes I do have sources including some english ones.

https://books.google.com/books?id=OoO8EhnrOSsC&lpg https://books.google.com/books?id=HnZuDwAAQBAJ&lpg https://www.revistamilitar.pt/artigo/1290 https://aventurasnahistoria.uol.com.br/noticias/reportagem/ha-204-anos-o-brasil-integrava-o-reino-unido-de-portugal-e-algarves.phtml https://books.google.pt/books?id=8P8vAAAAYAAJ&lpg http://www.scielo.mec.pt/pdf/got/n10/n10a03.pdf The english ones: https://books.google.com/books?id=INhcIzDccb8C&lpg https://books.google.com/books?id=JTVH7PZU1hUC&lpg https://books.google.com/books?id=PJ7ORZ5Gx5oC&lpg https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-worldhistory/chapter/brazilian-independence/ https://books.google.com/books?id=K65A7RHg9M8C&lpg https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/empires.htm https://books.google.com/books?id=RhDqDQAAQBAJ&lpg So I have some links here of mainly books. Many do not talk directly of the size of the Portuguese empire, but talk of Portuguese provinces in the interior of Brazil that contradict what Taagepera said. You will also find things written like "in 1822 Portugal lost its largest colony, that of Brazil", contradicting once again his claims. I could still find more, but I hope these are enough to show readers the true facts. Roqui15 (talk) 17:54, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I took a gander at those sources, though obviously I didn't read all of them from start to finish. They do not seem to be peer-reviewed scientific articles (with the possible exception of this one, and that one does not mention any area figures as far as I can tell), which the source you want to replace is. Since you say that Many do not talk directly of the size of the Portuguese empire, I have to ask what it is you think they demonstrate? If it is that academic consensus is that Taagepera is mistaken when he says that in 1822, the Portuguese settlers had effective control over approximately half of Brazil, then (1) that assessment of academic consensus should ideally be based on higher-quality sources (say, ones published in scientific journals), and (2) that is only enough to remove the current figure from the list, not replace it with a different figure (for which we'd need a high-quality source). TompaDompa (talk) 20:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

For an example of academic consensus being in conflict with Taagepera's work, check out the explanatory footnotes for the entries on the Median Empire on the list. There, we have a review article published in an academic journal which assesses the scholarly consensus (or lack thereof) about the extent of a historical polity. TompaDompa (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Are there sources showing there is an academic consensus on Portuguese settlers having effective control over half of Brazil? For a starters it is very disingenuous arguing because something is published once, it has academic consensus. I had a look at the article reference, Tageepera model and methodology make no attempt to quantify if Portugal's dominium over Brazil in 1820 was roughly half the present area. He simply uses a reference for that: Engel's 1958 Great Historical World Atlas. A non-peered reviewed publication. That's the initial statement that Roqui15 is contesting and for which you're putting a much higher burden of proof than what you have for the current evidence. 2A01:4B00:F613:4600:F95B:72DD:7C36:7DF (talk) 14:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say that there is an academic consensus on Portuguese settlers having effective control over half of Brazil, though Taagepera might – in the same article, he writes the color patches in historical atlases indicate a widespread belief that some territories can be assigned to some political entities, from 3000 BC on, and this notion has been extended to the populations of these areas in atlases of population history (e.g., McEvedy and Jones, 1978). There is fair agreement among the atlases on the identity and extent of the attributions, reflecting some consensus among the historians more generally. An imperfect but operational definition for the present purposes might be that polities are indicated by the different colored patches in historical atlases. This is less flippant than it may sound. We often have a consensus on recognizing features (e.g., human faces) that we cannot easily define. Rather, the point is that dismissing claims by high-quality WP:Reliable sources in cases like this is something that is usually (but not always) done based on equal or higher-quality sources directly contradicting the claims in question. I'm open to removing the entry from the list altogether, but not to replacing the current figure with one based on lower-quality sources. The question is: do you think the entry should be removed or altered? TompaDompa (talk) 20:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Alright I give up. I did my best but your hate for Portugal is too much.

I would bet my life and that of my entire family that the Portuguese empire included Brazil. It is a fact here in Portugal, we all know that the Portuguese empire was huge, one of the largest ever. We grew up knowing this, our teachers and our country taught us that way. Unfortunately, English wikipedia states that it is not true, which is bad because English wikipedia is generally universal. But okay, stay there with your Brazilian empire. I hope tho that in the future this can be changed by someone more capable than me. Roqui15 (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

http://motherearthtravel.com/history/brazil/history-4.htm Another source

"With the Treaties of 1750, 1761, and 1777, Brazil took on its modern shape" "When Brazil became independent in 1822, its huge territory was comparable in size with the Russian and Chinese empires." I'm curious about what you'll say this time Roqui15 (talk) 22:17, 12 June 2020 (UTC) Also take a look at "Brazilian gold rush", explaining why the portuguese started to go deep into Brazil long before Brazil independence.

None of this is inconsistent with the Portuguese claiming a larger area than they effectively controlled. Don't be discouraged; it's really difficult to find high-quality sources for maximum territorial extents of historical polities. I'm not averse to replacing the figure for the Portuguese Empire's area with a higher one, but it needs to be properly sourced. TompaDompa (talk) 23:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

What makes you think this article (http://motherearthtravel.com/history/brazil/history-4.htm) is not a quality source? In the end you see the follow: "SOURCE: Area Handbook of the US Library of Congress". Or the books I showed you, mostly portuguese ones talking about the portuguese impire itself.

Roqui15 (talk) 23:32, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm comparing those sources to the one you want to replace, a peer-reviewed article published in an academic journal. That particular source that you are asking about is published on a travel site, which doesn't exactly scream WP:Reliable source. What's more, you seem to be attempting to use these sources to advance a position that they do not directly support. This source cannot be used to claim that the Portuguese empire had an area of 10.4 million km² in 1822, because the source doesn't actually say that. Sources must directly support the information they are used for. TompaDompa (talk) 00:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Brzezinski is a reliable source. The issue is that he did not disclose how he came to 10.4 million km2 (1815) for the Portuguese Empire, whereas Taagepera does. That said, I haven't read all the sources used, but the argument that they did not have full control of the western part of modern Brazil could probably be used for the French and British Empires. Were they in full control of the African inlands and tropical jungles? I don't know. Alcaios (talk) 03:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Brzezinski is a reliable source but not for that particular information, per WP:RSCONTEXT. As for control, the same thing can indeed be said for other empires but it's pretty clear from reading what Taagepera wrote about Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Britain, and France that control came gradually over time. It's therefore not surprising that the area controlled by the French and British in the 1900s would more closely resemble the area they claimed (and modern-day borders) than in the case of Portugal in the early 1800s. TompaDompa (talk) 08:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Alcaios Finally something that supports me. Exactly, obviously a empire or a country can't contain people everywhere, even now today, the amazon rainforest is considered part of Brazil but no one lives there, except for the uncontacted tribes which have no idea what Brazil even is. Brazil belonged to Portugal at the time as much as Mexico belonged to Spain at the time as well. Those areas were however explored and claimed, see for example the portuguese badeirantes like António Raposo Tavares. I rest my case here. Roqui15 (talk) 14:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi, im' here again. Just to say that Wikipedia is indeed a big mess. Someone who came acros this page and for example this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Brazil will be really confused! Every related (which talks about portuguese empire) wiki page on the internet explains that Brazil was part of Portugal once. I'm suprised you people are not trying to change every wiki page that show Brazil as part of Portugal. Why don't just search what really happened? See for example the brazilian gold rush, the bandeirantes expeditions and even the War of the Oranges. This is all explained, I don't know where that so called historian in 1997 get that info. It's simple not true. I have talked this with friends and they simple laugh. It's completly nonsense. Roqui15 (talk) 19:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0cdcef6b10113394e7c493c1737e5ef1 I will edit and use this pic as source. What do you all think? Will I be blocked again if I try to correct this? Roqui15 (talk) 22:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think you would be blocked for making such an edit (though I suppose an administrator could view it as continuing an WP:Edit war), but since that picture provides neither a figure for the area of the Portuguese Empire nor a year for its peak, it's not particularly useful. Simply put, that picture does not WP:Verify any particular numerical data with regards to the Portuguese Empire. TompaDompa (talk) 22:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

But the image proves Brazil was indeed part of Portugl and considering the 10.4 million km2 in many sources, it's the obvious case

Roqui15 (talk) 17:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

That's not how sourcing works, we still need to source whatever figure we use properly. If somebody else claimed that the image verified an area of 10.3 or 10.5 million km², what would one say against that? Also, there is no contradiction between the Portuguese Empire claiming all of Brazil and the Portuguese Empire having effective control over half of Brazil. TompaDompa (talk) 18:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

yet another map here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Imperios_Espa%C3%B1ol_y_Portugu%C3%A9s_1790.svg

How can you still believe Portugal had only half of Brazil? Roqui15 (talk) 16:30, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Also take a look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Treaty_of_San_Ildefonso You're literally saying that all of this wikipedia pages are wrong Roqui15 (talk) 16:31, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm saying nothing of the sort. Taagepera is saying that de jure control did not (yet) translate to complete de facto control in the early 1800s. TompaDompa (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

So I really went looking for trustworthy sources that prove that Brazil for most of the 18th and early 19th centuries was under Portuguese (de facto rule) between Portuguese and Spanish american colonial conflicts, thus proving that the territory of the Portuguese empire contained most of Brazil modern borders by the principle of roman law "uti possidetis, ita possideatis" in the treaty of madrid (1750).

And with the help of a friend we went looking for the treaty itself, reaching to the conclusion of thee important and relevant documents, two of wich published in 1750, and the latter in 1953.

The first document is writen in spanish and portuguese, the second is in portuguese handrwigting, and lastly the third one in brazilian portuguese, explaining in detail the portuguese influence in the americas since the beguining of the first explorations detailing all the territorial gains.

I will also send two more links, one by the Professor Jared Rubin published in March 6, 2017 by the title: "Rulers, Religion, and Riches: Why the West Got Rich and the Middle East Did Not", and the other book by Brzezinski Zbigniew by the title "Strategic Vision: America and the Crisis of Global Power" both of wich reflect the sizes of the 10 biggest empires in the worlds history.

References are in the order previously stated:

https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port/page/n6/mode/1up

https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port_0/mode/1up

https://archive.org/details/AlexandreDeGusmaoEOTratadoDe1750/page/n2/mode/1up

Professor Jared Rubin (March 6, 2017). Cambridge University Press. ISBN-13: 978-1108400053

https://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Brzezinski-Zbigniew.-Strategic-Vision-America-and-the-Crisis-of-Global-Power.pdf Roqui15 (talk) 22:11, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Both Brzezinski and Rubin (link to the latter) fail WP:RSCONTEXT, and Rubin does not provide a year, which is required information. If you think we should remove the entry for the Portuguese Empire from the list altogether, we can do that. But in order to change the figure from 5.5 million km² to something else, we need better sourcing than that. TompaDompa (talk) 22:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I failed to understand why the source of Rubin a Cambridge professor isn´t reliable. Or maybe its just vague since it dosent chase tte subject further, since dosent indeed provide a date.

Altough arguably scholars from renown universites and colleges always fallow trough their own research with the utmost veracity. In the meantime I only found two more sources, both of them from academic studies and resech. The first one is from the University of Massachusetts, published in "Spring '08": https://www.coursehero.com/file/pin558/It-is-objectless-expansion-a-pattern-learned-from-the-behavior-of-other-nations/ The second sourse is from the University of Leeds in England. pulished in October, 2009: http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/fileadmin/Documents/research/sri/workingpapers/SRIPs-20_01.pdf

Furthermore the author Brzezinski Zbigniew, is the one used in the references from Portuguese wikipedia, thats why i gave is work "Strategic Vision: America and the Crisis of Global Power" as a means to justify the the size of portugal, wich claims to be 10.4 million km² at the empires peak in the year 1820. All the "reliable" sources i cheked claimed the same, 10.4 million km² some referenced the year some didnt, but all of them situaded portugal in the same manner of size and backgrownd, either in images and texts. Roqui15 (talk) 23:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

There are multiple issues with this edit. First off, you're misusing WP:PRIMARY sources. Secondly, you can't use sources from 1750 to make assertions about 1820. Thirdly, your interpretation of the treaties to mean that Portugal had complete effective control of Brazil is WP:Original research. Fourthly, Environment and Imperialism: Why Colonialism Still Matters fails WP:RSCONTEXT. Fifthly, notes from a university course on world politics is not a WP:Reliable source on the territorial extents of historical polities. Sixthly, you're combining sources in a way which constitutes WP:SYNTH. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article. (emphasis in original) per WP:RS. TompaDompa (talk) 11:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

There is literally 0 issues. What exactly is happening here? How do you still have the courage to defend the 5.5 million km2 figure? I just sent an email to Rein Taagepera himself explaining why he is wrong. Yes I can use sources from 1750, it only helps me, the portuguese empire was already bigger than 5.5 million km2 in the 18 century. So it must me around 1750-1822 the peak size. How can you still be against this? Do you realize that you are saying that official handwriting documents from 18 century are wrong? Roqui15 (talk) 11:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the sources are wrong. What I am saying is that you are using them improperly. On a completely different note: if Taagepera replies to your email, please tell us what he said. TompaDompa (talk) 16:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Please revise your souce that claims: "The reason the Empire of Brazil had a larger area in 1889 than the Portuguese Empire had in 1820 is that at the time of Brazilian independence in 1822, the Portuguese settlers had effective control over approximately half of Brazil".

  I if im not mistaken the source for this claim is the following: Rein Taagepera (September 1997). "Expansion and Contraction Patterns of Large Polities: Context for Russia". International Studies Quarterly. 41 (3): 492–502. doi:10.1111/0020-8833.00053. JSTOR 2600793. Archived from the original on 17 August 2018. Retrieved 4 September 2018.
 The statemant is inaccurate by the reasoning that in 1750 both the king Portugal and the king Spain agreed on a new treaty, named the treaty of madrid by the Roman law "uti possidetis, ita possideatis" wich gave (De Facto) rule over older claims of the Portuguese crown advancemants by the Bandeirantes (flag holders) during the brazilian gold rush, Aswell as establishing new bordes between them by geographical means (mountain tops and river beds).
  My sources wich state the recognition both by Portugal and Spain are the old documents written and published in 1750. All the sources state my previous argument in detail, with the fallowing qotes of the books/documents aswell.
 Please confirm.
 The first source: "...this first edition of the famous Treaty of Madrid is rare and sought after. All the essential documents for the study of the question of Brazil's frontiers are assembled in one volume."(Moraes):https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port/page/n6/mode/1up
 The second source: "Manuscript copy of the Treaty of Madrid between John V of Portugal and Ferdinand VI of Spain, signed on January 13, 1750, which sought to establish new borders between the South American possessions of the Portuguese and Spanish Empires, granting much of modern-day Brazil to Portugal. Presumably a copy of only the Portuguese text of the treaty which was printed by Joseph da Costa Coimbra in Lisbon in 1750 which had both the Spanish and Portuguese texts of the treaty":https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port_0/page/n5/mode/1up
 The third source:(google translated) "This book shows a background on the problem of the boundaries between Spanish America and Portuguese America. The problem already begins in Tordesillas, the landmarks were set based on knowledge of geography and astronomy that was not very precise (the terms of the treatment were vague and indefinite, as the lands were yet to be discovered). Some problem that happened during the Iberian Union (1580 to 1640): treaty treated dead letter, poisoned, with a confusion, a Spain became as much of the eastern part, as of the lands in the western part of the meridian of Tordesillas. From 1640, Portugal and Spain went through violent wars, which can be resolved in 1750, in Madrid, where the limits were definitively registered, by the principle of possible use. With the performance of diplomat Alexandre de Gusmão, a trusted man of the Marquis of Pombal, the territory of Portuguese America has been expanded 3 times since the original size established in Tordesillas, defining the geographical contours of Brazil today":https://archive.org/details/AlexandreDeGusmaoEOTratadoDe1750/page/n2/mode/1up
 Please confirm if my suspicions are true and please revise the sources of this wikipedia article.
 " ‘Half a truth is often a great lie.’ - Benjamin Franklin" Best regards Rolf302  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ralf302 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC) 

So have we reached a consensus? Roqui15 (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

No, we have not. Frankly, I don't think you understand how we use sources on Wikipedia. Look, here's an exhaustive list of the valid options in this case:

1. Keep the current figure, as it is sourced to a peer-reviewed source specifically about the territorial extents of historical empires.
2. Remove the entry altogether, if WP:CONSENSUS determines that the article is better without it per WP:VNOTSUFF.
3. If an equal-quality source (which basically means a peer-reviewed source specifically about this topic) which provides a different figure can be located, we can add it in addition to the current one and present a range of estimates (this is currently done for multiple entries on the list, such as the Maurya Empire).
4. If a higher-quality source (which basically means a WP:RELIABLE source that explicitly states that the academic consensus is at odds with Taagepera's perspective) or an abundance of independent equal-quality sources can be located (such that Taagepera's view would constitute such a small minority that presenting it would be WP:UNDUE), we can replace the current figure with the one found in the higher-quality source/abundance of independent equal-quality sources.

What's not valid is replacing the current figure with another figure based on a lower-quality source (because that violates WP:BESTSOURCES) or adding a range of estimates that are based on sources of unequal quality (because that creates a WP:FALSEBALANCE). TompaDompa (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I believe one of the main issues here is using Taagepera's work as being a high-quality source for the size of the Portuguese empire when the focus of his work was not on the determining the size of empires. The peer-reviewed process his work was subjected to would be unlikely to have scrutinized every source for his estimates on the size of a particular empire amongst the dozens he included but instead focus on his methodology, model, assumptions and conclusions. He simply used a non-peer-reviewed source for the estimation of the Portuguese empire which should be as valid as any of the ones Roqui15 provided you with. An equal quality source should be equated to Engel's 1958 Great Historical World Atlas as that is the source for the estimation of the Portuguese empire as Effective control over coastal half of Brazil and be valid for at least a range as you indicated, as there are several sources that dispute the "coastal half" claim (e.g. Política de povoamento e a constituição da fronteira oeste do Império Português - This PhD Thesis (does the juri/examiners count as peer reviewed for you/wikipedia?) details the establishment of several forts on the western side of Brazil (border with bolivia) for the political and territorial control of the region; this peer-reviewed article details the existence of a treasury general control offices administering the regions of Mato Grosso, Maranhão, Pará, all western regions of Brazil, showing a map of Portuguese America in 1750 including those regions; there are several peer-reviewed publications and book chapters by authors from different academic institutions that mention the administration of the inner/western provinces of Brazil by Portuguese administrators prior to 1800). Putting a higher burden of proof is rather disingenuous as I have not seen any evidence to support that Taagepera numbers here represent any sort of academic consensus around that being the true dominium over Brazil for Portugal's empire even if there is a consensus on the interpretation of particular maps. 2A01:4B00:F613:4600:D1F1:A208:B52:C1F5 (talk) 14:24, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

the focus of his work was not on the determining the size of empires I don't think that's an entirely fair characterization. Inasmuch as determining the sizes of different empires was the data collection for creating the set from which all subsequent analysis was derived, it was indeed a major focus of the work. He simply used a non-peer-reviewed source for the estimation of the Portuguese empire which should be as valid as any of the ones Roqui15 provided you with. An equal quality source should be equated to Engel's 1958 Great Historical World Atlas as that is the source for the estimation of the Portuguese empire as Effective control over coastal half of Brazil What you're arguing here is, in essence, that Wikipedia should be a WP:SECONDARY source. But Wikipedia is not a secondary source, nor is it meant to be – it is a WP:TERTIARY source. To quote WP:PRIMARY, Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. In this case, it means we do not make our own assessments of what the area was based on maps or other sources, but rather the figure itself must be explicitly stated by the source. You speak of a higher burden of proof, but that's missing the point entirely – what matters is having proper sourcing for the figures. As yet, nobody has presented any source for any other estimate of the peak area of the Portuguese Empire which passes the relevant policies and guidelines such as WP:BESTSOURCES and WP:RSCONTEXT. I've said this before, but there are a limited number of valid options here:

1. Keep the current figure, as it is sourced to a peer-reviewed source specifically about the territorial extents of historical empires.
2. Remove the entry altogether, if WP:CONSENSUS determines that the article is better without it per WP:VNOTSUFF.
3. If an equal-quality source (which basically means a peer-reviewed source specifically about this topic) which provides a different figure can be located, we can add it in addition to the current one and present a range of estimates (this is currently done for multiple entries on the list, such as the Maurya Empire).
4. If a higher-quality source (which basically means a WP:RELIABLE source that explicitly states that the academic consensus is at odds with Taagepera's perspective) or an abundance of independent equal-quality sources can be located (such that Taagepera's view would constitute such a small minority that presenting it would be WP:UNDUE), we can replace the current figure with the one found in the higher-quality source/abundance of independent equal-quality sources.

What's not valid is replacing the current figure with another figure based on a lower-quality source (because that violates WP:BESTSOURCES) or adding a range of estimates that are based on sources of unequal quality (because that creates a WP:FALSEBALANCE). Therefore I must ask you, which of the above are you suggesting? TompaDompa (talk) 22:36, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

At least we should get a range of estimates. Obviously the 5.5 million km2 don't make sense considering the articles we provided, which completly negates what Taagepera said. A little common sense helps in this case, wikipedia is constructed by people, not by bots or robots. No one can't deny those 3 articles, which is the wikipedia ideal evidence source, there is nothing better than a first handed source. Don't you agree? Therefore the 5.5 km2 figure must be wrong, also Taagepera didn't go deep into this somehow, I assume he thought the treaty of tordesillas actually happened (which gave only half of Brazil to Portugal). Even if we don't delete the 5.5 figure at least we should get a range between 5.5-10.4. The 10.4 figure is cited in many sources and considering the documents we showed you, it must be at least around that. This is a page which goal is to show people real information right? Would you prefer to have a wrong information over a supposed non reliable source (which is not the case, I still don't understadn why you think it's not reliable) providing a true information?Roqui15 (talk) 17:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

the wikipedia ideal evidence source, there is nothing better than a first handed source. Don't you agree? No actually, I don't. Wikipedia policy clearly states that Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. In other words, WP:PRIMARY sources are not ideal. Moreover, All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. Not to belabour the point, but this is a good example of what I mean when I say I don't think you understand how we use sources on Wikipedia. TompaDompa (talk) 17:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

https://archive.org/details/AlexandreDeGusmaoEOTratadoDe1750/page/n2/mode/1up This one's from 1953 is not a primary source. Did you really read all the sources we provided?Roqui15 (talk) 17:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

No, I'll admit that I did not read all of the sources all the way through. I took a gander at that one, and as far as I can tell, it does not directly support any figure for the maximum extent of the Portuguese Empire. What's more, it does not seem to be a peer-reviewed source. TompaDompa (talk) 17:50, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't show the maximum extent of the empire but it shows how Brazil was part of Portugal, and in that case proving yet again that Taagepera statment about Portugal only having half of Brazil is wrong. Also take a look at every source we sent Roqui15 (talk) 18:05, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I do look at them, but only to ascertain whether they can be used to add a different figure to the article. None of the sources you have presented are usable for that purpose. TompaDompa (talk) 18:20, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok yes, the source doesn't give us an exact number, but the source proves that the 5.5 km figure is wrong. Thus giving a very good evidence to support the 10.4km figure.Roqui15 (talk) 18:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

That line of reasoning is WP:SYNTH. Please read and understand our policies on how sources are used on Wikipedia. TompaDompa (talk) 18:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Alright, so what is your conclusion? Your personal opinion on all of this? Do you still believe in the 5.5km figure? Roqui15 (talk) 18:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I believe our only valid options with the sources we currently have is leaving the entry as it is or removing it entirely without replacing it. I see no reason to doubt the internal validity of Taagepera's article. I checked out Großer historischer Weltatlas. T. 3, Neuzeit by Engel (which Taagepera cites), and it did indeed assign roughly half of Brazil to Portugal in the relevant time period, while leaving the other half blank. That's on page 30, if you have access to a copy and want to check it out for yourself. TompaDompa (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

So you prefer to believe Großer historischer Weltatlas over the documents which indicates Brazil as part of Portugal?Roqui15 (talk) 21:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

That's not what I said. I'm not convinced that believing one necessitates disbelieving the other. It's perfectly possible for sources to have an apparent disagreement simply because they are using different criteria without actually being at odds with each other if the effects of the differing criteria are taken into account. In such a case, what's important is self-consistency (i.e. internal validity). TompaDompa (talk) 22:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

But the source we provided is not an ordinary source, it's a document which directly proves Brazil as part as Portugal. It's a fact, rather than a study or a estimativeRoqui15 (talk) 22:50, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

What does it prove, exactly? You say it proves that Brazil was part of Portugal, but in what sense, by what criteria? TompaDompa (talk) 23:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

You can read the documents. Didn't you read? A quick example: "This book shows a background on the problem of the boundaries between Spanish America and Portuguese America. The problem already begins in Tordesillas, the landmarks were set based on knowledge of geography and astronomy that was not very precise (the terms of the treatment were vague and indefinite, as the lands were yet to be discovered). Some problem that happened during the Iberian Union (1580 to 1640): treaty treated dead letter, poisoned, with a confusion, a Spain became as much of the eastern part, as of the lands in the western part of the meridian of Tordesillas. From 1640, Portugal and Spain went through violent wars, which can be resolved in 1750, in Madrid, where the limits were definitively registered, by the principle of possible use. With the performance of diplomat Alexandre de Gusmão, a trusted man of the Marquis of Pombal, the territory of Portuguese America has been expanded 3 times since the original size established in Tordesillas, defining the geographical contours of Brazil today"Roqui15 (talk) 10:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course I can read the sources, but I'm asking you what it is you think they prove to find out if we're even talking about the same thing. Humour me, will you? TompaDompa (talk) 10:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think, I know they prove Taagepera is wrong, is not about personal opinion or studies, is about a fact. It's the same as saying "Lisbon belongs to Portugal" and some Estonian politician saiyng this is not true and some other people believe him. You have to understand that my sources are more than a book or a study. Is an oficial document at the time giving Portugal territories in Brazil, why can't you understand this? History is written by documents like this, too bad Taagepera didn't notice these ones. Humour you indeed Roqui15 (talk) 11:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

What fact are you referring to? That Brazil was internationally recognized to be part of Portugal? TompaDompa (talk) 11:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Exactly, you can't contest that. Roqui15 (talk) 11:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

And I'm not. But international recognition is not the criterion used for determining the area here. TompaDompa (talk) 14:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Your issue is the 10.4km figure? In this case, international recognition showed in the documents proves the 5.5km figure can't be true. The empire of Brazil in this list is ahead of Portugal which can't be, sense Brazil once belonged to Portugal. We provided the documents which proves that almost the entirety of today Brazil belonged to Portugal. So even tho I didn't found an actual study on how the figure of 10.4km was reached, it's very likely true, as you can see in many sources including books and studies made by professors of well know universities. Also the documents we found prove that the 10.4km figure is much more aceptable than the 5.5 even if it's incorrect. Roqui15 (talk) 14:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

You seem not to have understood my point. International recognition is irrelevant, because that's not what the area figures in the list are based on. TompaDompa (talk) 14:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

But is this a list of the largest empires or it's a list of something else? Because if it's a list of largest empires Portugal was indeed once bigger than 5.5 million km2. If however this is a list of something else, something much more specific then u have a point, but so most empires here if not all needed to change their numbers as well. Roqui15 (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC). Also Taagepara states that "the Portuguese settlers had effective control over approximately half of Brazil" which he based on to reach his 5.5 figure. This is obviously untrue as we discussed here, and I hope you know it by now. Roqui15 (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

It is a list of the largest empires by the definitions and criteria outlined in the WP:LEAD. TompaDompa (talk) 15:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

That criteria is only used to Portugal then, I wonder why. Let's be real here, an empire is an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state. Portugal at his peak had the possession of Brazil, if we are talking about the largest empires, Brazil must be included in portuguese empire, because Brazil was part of the portuguese empire. This is easy to understand. Obviously there weren't portuguese everywhere in Brazil, but the same applies to empires like the british empire and spanish empire, do you really think there were british everywhere in Canada or Australia? Your logic doesn't makes sense. Roqui15 (talk) 15:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

No, it's applied to all of them. I'll quote myself from earlier: As for control, the same thing can indeed be said for other empires but it's pretty clear from reading what Taagepera wrote about Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Britain, and France that control came gradually over time. It's therefore not surprising that the area controlled by the French and British in the 1900s would more closely resemble the area they claimed (and modern-day borders) than in the case of Portugal in the early 1800s. TompaDompa (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Portugal had discovered Brazil in 1500, 300 years is more than enough time to colonize. And Portugal did indeed colonized Brazil. No offense but you're starting to look desperate and looking for the tiniest excuses to defend the 5.5km figure, and they are seeming laughable. Roqui15 (talk) 16:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC) Also the fact that today Brazil contains more than 100 uncontacted tribes makes those statements nonsense. Think about that Roqui15 (talk) 16:44, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think following what the WP:BESTSOURCES say is an excuse, but never mind. What do you suggest we do, exactly? TompaDompa (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

The ideal would be to change the 5.5km since it's unreal and it was our first objective. However, my friend and I will discuss an option that would satisfy both parties, we'll try to access the problem from different points of view and take the time to consolidate our arguments in a objective manner.Roqui15 (talk) 17:19, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Very well, I'll wait. In the meantime, I have to tell you that your arguments thus far demonstrate a lack of understanding of how Wikipedia works. Seriously, this is becoming a WP:COMPETENCE problem. You have made arguments based on international recognition when that's explicitly not what this list is about, and you have used sources improperly quite a bit. You really need to read and understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, in particular the ones about how to use sources, such as WP:Verifiability, WP:No original research, and WP:Identifying reliable sources. You're using sources in a way that would have been appropriate if you were writing e.g. an essay for university. That is to say, you're using the sources the way a WP:SECONDARY source would, by analyzing, evaluating, interpreting, and/or synthesizing material found in the sources. This is however explicitly forbidden by Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia is a WP:TERTIARY source, and as such summarizes what is found in (mainly) secondary sources.

As I said before, there are a limited number of valid options here:

1. Keep the current figure, as it is sourced to a peer-reviewed source specifically about the territorial extents of historical empires.
2. Remove the entry altogether, if WP:CONSENSUS determines that the article is better without it per WP:VNOTSUFF.
3. If an equal-quality source (which basically means a peer-reviewed source specifically about this topic) which provides a different figure can be located, we can add it in addition to the current one and present a range of estimates (this is currently done for multiple entries on the list, such as the Maurya Empire).
4. If a higher-quality source (which basically means a WP:RELIABLE source that explicitly states that the academic consensus is at odds with Taagepera's perspective) or an abundance of independent equal-quality sources can be located (such that Taagepera's view would constitute such a small minority that presenting it would be WP:UNDUE), we can replace the current figure with the one found in the higher-quality source/abundance of independent equal-quality sources.

What's not valid is replacing the current figure with another figure based on a lower-quality source (because that violates WP:BESTSOURCES) or adding a range of estimates that are based on sources of unequal quality (because that creates a WP:FALSEBALANCE). I suppose we could also use WP:INTEXT attribution to Taagepera in the explanatory footnote (i.e. something along the lines of "The reason the Empire of Brazil is listed as having a larger area in 1889 than the Portuguese Empire had in 1820 is that, according to Rein Taagepera, the Portuguese settlers had effective control over approximately half of Brazil at the time of Brazilian independence in 1822."). TompaDompa (talk) 19:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Separate discussion thread

My main question if possible to please revaluate the Taagepera source, its clearly not WP:RELIABLE since we provided enough evidence to contradict his work on the portuguese empire size. Making it a "lower quality" source. Ralf302 (talk —Preceding undated comment added 17:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

It's a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities. That's about as WP:RELIABLE as it gets. The source does not become less reliable because you disagree with the criteria it uses. Though as I noted above, we can remove the entry entirely if you think having no figure is preferable to having Taagepera's. TompaDompa (talk) 18:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't have to agree or disagree, this is not personal its factual,and the three sources i stated arent opinions, and far predate my existence. "lower quality" didnt ment as a judgment on Taagepera’s work, it was a contrast to your own words of "higher-quality" and "equal-quality" sources.

I also found a website explaining some of taagepera wording and misinterpretations, please have close a look:https://bookandsword.com/2020/01/25/be-careful-with-rein-taageperas-lists-of-largest-empires/

Quote:"I am sure that Taagepera’s sources were cutting-edge in the 1970s, but after 40 years they need updating and fact-checking. As Michael E. Smith says, historians and archaeologists have a responsibility to construct better data sets for social scientist and world historians, but social scientists and world historians have the responsibility to use their sources with the same level of skepticism they apply to the morning paper." I believe this is a well renowned website by Sean Manning https://bookandsword.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/manning-short-academic-cv-2019-11.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ralf302 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a WP:BLOG, though it was helpful with regards to the Medes (see previous discussion). TompaDompa (talk) 18:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Please could you just share the references were the number 5.5 million km2 comes from, and the reference were the reasoning that "Brazil had a larger area in 1889 than the Portuguese Empire had in 1820 is that at the time of Brazilian independence in 1822, the Portuguese settlers had effective control over approximately half of Brazil" comes from. I would aprecciate it, I serch in every refence in the page and now im rather lost, and some of them i can't access for some reason. Ralf302 —Preceding undated comment added 18:58, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Here you go. It's on page 502. TompaDompa (talk) 19:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Firstly i want to thank you for taking the time to answer our questions and for providing the exact location of the source.

I took the time to immerse myself on Taagepera's work wich i found most intresting.

I have some questions that i hope you could shed a light on, his work dosent focus directly on portugal, what it does focus on is in the relation based on area and on population, the only reference to the topic could be ambiguos and subjective to the reader, quoting "1820 Effective control over coastal half of Brazil andcoastal quarter of Angola and Mozambique",and "1780 Penetration inland". Effective controle can be subejective in this case since "Effective controle" is not sinonimus with colonial claims and "de facto rulership" (administrative controle) portugal had indeed claimed brazil to be a core part of the portuguese crown.

I found this reference wich reinforces my logic stateing that brazil had 13 capitanships: https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfPortugal1600-1800/page/n113/mode/2up?q=kingdom+of+brazil . (193-216) pages and states (page 211) Brazil was devided in 13 capitanships and wich had administration prowlless over the said land.

Id like to reinforce the idea that brazil still had moastly natives roaming arond (page 210) and the "effective controle" can be highly subjective when it comes to administation and "inland penetration" wich again portugal had indeed made claim by the bandeirantes and later the brazilian gold rush.

Since Brazil was in fact devided in 13 capitanships and had administative control, it sould count as land area by the de jure claim made, and later the creation of the kingdom of brazil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ralf302 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, defining empire sizes is somewhat subjective and there are multiple valid ways of doing it. We can have opinions about whether Taagepera should have done it differently, but that's not for us as Wikipedia editors to decide. Taagepera's method is valid and self-consistent. If you want to read more by Taagepera to get a sense of his reasoning, I suggest reading this paper on his method and these two on earlier parts of history than the one I linked above. TompaDompa (talk) 05:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

It's possible to use territorial claims or international recognition to define the areas of empires, but there are good reasons not to. In the former case, we get things like the Aerican Empire claiming half of Pluto, which is self-evidently ridiculous. In the latter case, we're dealing with a concept that is completely anachronistic for a large portion of the entries on the list. Using effective control instead gives us a consistent approach to use across the centuries (and millennia) that also reflects reality. TompaDompa (talk) 19:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

You obviously misinterpreted my words and the reference i sent, the claims ware made prior to the creation of the capitanships, (in my own words) "portugal had indeed made claim by the bandeirantes and later the brazilian gold rush." both bandeirantes and the brazilian gold rush, ware made before the cration of the kingdom of brazil (part of the portuguese empire) and the treaty of madrid. (see the link i sent)

I hurge you to read the texts i sent wich clearly you skimmed through. The reference i sent was published in england and as you can see clearly acknowledge brazil and the 13 capitanships to be "Portuguese possesions" (not mearly territorial claims) under clear Portuguese administration.

You seem somehow to be trying to avoid the matter at hand or at least trying to ridicule it.

I have been since the beggining of this conversation trying to be direct and objective, and you comparing the territorial claims in pluto by a micronation that (quote) "has no sovereign territory of its own and has never been recognized by any other sovereign state as existing" with the Portuguese empire of wich i gave concrete FACTS that innded had as (1750) an integral core part Brazil, and comparing both cases as anachronism, only thing i see here ridiculous is your comparation. Ralf302

You misunderstand me. I'm not disputing the international recognition of Brazil as part of Portugal in the relevant time period. I'm pointing out that it's irrelevant because international recognition is not the criterion used for defining the area, and explaining why using international recognition (or territorial claims) would be a bad idea. International recognition is not an anachronistic concept in this case, but would be anachronistic for the Mongol Empire and the Roman Empire, for instance. The fact that a English-language source from 1661 recognizes Brazil as part of Portugal doesn't matter for the purposes of this list. You should really be looking to present modern, WP:SECONDARY sources for your case, preferably peer-reviewed ones specifically about this topic. TompaDompa (talk) 09:07, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Another good reason to use effective control as the criterion for this list is that that's the criterion used by a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities, so we would be following the WP:BESTSOURCES with regards to what criterion to use. TompaDompa (talk) 23:41, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2020

   Please revise your souce that claims: "The reason the Empire of Brazil had a larger area in 1889 than the Portuguese Empire had in 1820 is that at the time of Brazilian independence in 1822, the Portuguese settlers had effective control over approximately half of Brazil". 
   I if im not mistaken the source for this claim is the following: Rein Taagepera (September 1997). "Expansion and Contraction Patterns of Large Polities: Context for Russia". International Studies Quarterly. 41 (3): 492–502. doi:10.1111/0020-8833.00053. JSTOR 2600793. Archived from the original on 17 August 2018. Retrieved 4 September 2018.

  The statemant is inaccurate by the reasoning that in 1750 both the king Portugal and the king Spain agreed on a new treaty, named the treaty of madrid by the Roman law "uti possidetis, ita possideatis" wich gave (De Facto) rule over older claims of the Portuguese crown advancemants by the Bandeirantes (flag holders) during the brazilian gold rush, Aswell as establishing new bordes between them by geographical means (mountain tops and river beds).

   My sources wich state the recognition both by Portugal and Spain are the old documents written and published in 1750. All the sources state my previous argument in detail, with the fallowing qotes of the books/documents aswell.
  Please confirm.

  The first source: "...this first edition of the famous Treaty of Madrid is rare and sought after. All the essential documents for the study of the question of Brazil's frontiers are assembled in one volume."(Moraes):https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port/page/n6/mode/1up

  The second source: "Manuscript copy of the Treaty of Madrid between John V of Portugal and Ferdinand VI of Spain, signed on January 13, 1750, which sought to establish new borders between the South American possessions of the Portuguese and Spanish Empires, granting much of modern-day Brazil to Portugal. Presumably a copy of only the Portuguese text of the treaty which was printed by Joseph da Costa Coimbra in Lisbon in 1750 which had both the Spanish and Portuguese texts of the treaty":https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port_0/page/n5/mode/1up

  The third source:(google translated) "This book shows a background on the problem of the boundaries between Spanish America and Portuguese America. The problem already begins in Tordesillas, the landmarks were set based on knowledge of geography and astronomy that was not very precise (the terms of the treatment were vague and indefinite, as the lands were yet to be discovered). Some problem that happened during the Iberian Union (1580 to 1640): treaty treated dead letter, poisoned, with a confusion, a Spain became as much of the eastern part, as of the lands in the western part of the meridian of Tordesillas. From 1640, Portugal and Spain went through violent wars, which can be resolved in 1750, in Madrid, where the limits were definitively registered, by the principle of possible use. With the performance of diplomat Alexandre de Gusmão, a trusted man of the Marquis of Pombal, the territory of Portuguese America has been expanded 3 times since the original size established in Tordesillas, defining the geographical contours of Brazil today":https://archive.org/details/AlexandreDeGusmaoEOTratadoDe1750/page/n2/mode/1up

  Please confirm if my suspicions are true and please revise the sources of this wikipedia article, and please change it to a more viable and factual one.
  " ‘Half a truth is often a great lie.’ - Benjamin Franklin"

Best regards Ralf302. Ralf302 (talk) 15:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This properly belongs in the section #Portuguese empire. TompaDompa (talk) 15:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Is there a need for a consensus in a factual topic?

Cambridge dictionary: "Fact - something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information" If so please state the consensus that must had occured in the first iteration on this wikipedia article, with the relevant references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ralf302 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Listen to the Portuguse Empire appeal changes, there is more than enough evidence already provided by other users

Change the Portuguese Empire back to 10th place. There is no such thing in history and no reliable historical source that divides the Portuguese Empire into "Second Portuguese Empire and Third Portuguese Empire", this is an erroneous concept created by a user. At it's height, the Portuguese Empire encompassed 10.4 Million km^2. There is also a note on the Brazilian Empire explaining that Portugal only had effective control over half of the brazilian territory, which is also wrong and there are no reliable sources to this, as the main Wikipedia page for the Portuguese Empire contradicts this information. Even if Portugal only had control over half of Brazil, it would be enough square kilometres to bump it out of the 21th place, so this article clearly has contradicting information.

Sources: ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA (britannica.com/topic/history-of-Portugal) Disney, A.R. 2009. A History of Portugal and the Portuguese Empire. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. (and any other history book about this subject states Portugal had full dominion over the Brazilian lands in 1790) Page with reliable inofrmation: gohighbrow.com/the-portuguese-empire/ EloctPT (talk) 19:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Given the very lengthy discussion and disagreement above, this edit request is inappropriate. I'd suggest seeking further resolution at a venue like WP:DRN. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2020

There is no difficulty in understanding the size of the claimed territory by Portugal in Brazil. This Treaty effectively demarcates the portuguese-spanish borders in south america and formally recognizes portuguese ownership of those territories, we can see it presented here in this map. Whether or not most of the territory was occupied is irrelevant because even though there's territories in Amazonia yet to be explored like the Vale of Javari those territories are still counted as part of Brazil and they contribute to the country's recognized area size. Furthermore, we can see the progression of the size of the colony of Brazil here . And finally, here's a map of Brazil in 1763 which you can find in this page. My request is for this political entitiy to be recognized in this ranking and for it to include the territory that is presented on this map

My suggestion is to include the size of Portugal + brazilian empire and add a "+" representing the everchanging size of the rest of the colonies around the world which in the end indicates that there can only be a projection of the size, so basically 8.337 million km2 + 0.092,212 million km2 = 8.429,212 million km2 in 1822.

It is too much of an erroneous decision not to include the "United Kingdom of Portugal,Brazil and the Algarves" in the list. This issue has to be adressed or we must seek help from other moderators. Ygglow (talk) 23:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Continually making similar edit requests looks a lot like WP:IDHT; and the fact that a lot of these account are seemingly WP:SPA doesn't help... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Not very familiar with wikipedia editing policies, I stumbled across this article maybe a month or 2 ago, I reviewed the talk page and contributed to the discussion. There seems to be one user that does not agree with changing the value based on a particular publication being cited while discarding others (that in his view, have less merit). I (and it seems like others) don't agree with his reasoning. How does it work now? What is consensus here? He seems to have been working on this page for a while so does it mean he owns it and makes the final decisions? Is consensus convincing him? 2A01:4B00:F613:4600:D1F1:A208:B52:C1F5 (talk) 14:42, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Change portuguese empire size

I notice the big mistake about the Brazil and portuguese empire size. It looks like there is already a big discussion here about the size of the portuguese empire. The portuguese empire really should have it's size changed. There is plenty of sources already provided by other users that contradict the study of Rein Taagepera, these are the follow: https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port/page/n6/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/tratadodelimites00port_0/page/n5/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/AlexandreDeGusmaoEOTratadoDe1750/page/n2/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfPortugal1600-1800/page/n113/mode/2up?q=kingdom+of+brazil https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Vice-Reino_do_Brazil_1763.jpg And I have some more including maps: https://www.loc.gov/item/2003682775/ https://www.portalsaofrancisco.com.br/geografia/fronteiras-do-brasil https://www.e-publicacoes.uerj.br/index.php/maracanan/article/viewFile/24688/17822 http://info.lncc.br/indexi.html

All of these sources are more than enough to change the 5.5km2 provided by Taagepera and prove the portuguese emprire was bigger than the Empire of Brazil. The real size is supposed to be 10.4km million km2 but I couldn't find a good source, however some like these https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world/biggest-empires-in-history-at-its-peak-one-nation-controlled-23-of-worlds-population-4786111.html show us the 10.4km2 size. I'm not sure why this figure wasn't changed yet, but it's time to do that. Like a user said in the discussion at least a range between 5.5 and 10.4 would be more acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.48.210.93 (talk) 21:20, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

You said it yourself: I couldn't find a good source. That's the issue here. The sources you link don't matter one bit, because what is needed is a source that provides an explicit area figure at an explicitly specified year (as I noted in a previous edit of mine, WP:PRIMARY explicitly says Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so., which in this case means we do not make our own assessments of what the area was based on maps or other sources, but rather the figure itself must be explicitly stated by the source). Other sources have come up with different figures than 10.4 million km², such as this one which puts the area at 8.9 million km² because the "greatest extent" is barely larger than modern Brazil [...] inasmuch as Angola and Mozambique were merely small coastal districts in 1820 (this particular source is unusable for our purposes because it is WP:SELFPUBLISHED), which should make it pretty clear that those sources you linked do not in any way imply that 10.4 million km² is the incontrovertibly correct figure. I may sound a bit like a broken record, but we really do have a limited number of valid options here:

1. Keep the current figure, as it is sourced to a peer-reviewed source specifically about the territorial extents of historical empires.
2. Remove the entry altogether, if WP:CONSENSUS determines that the article is better without it per WP:VNOTSUFF.
3. If an equal-quality source (which basically means a peer-reviewed source specifically about this topic) which provides a different figure can be located, we can add it in addition to the current one and present a range of estimates (this is currently done for multiple entries on the list, such as the Maurya Empire).
4. If a higher-quality source (which basically means a WP:RELIABLE source that explicitly states that the academic consensus is at odds with Taagepera's perspective) or an abundance of independent equal-quality sources can be located (such that Taagepera's view would constitute such a small minority that presenting it would be WP:UNDUE), we can replace the current figure with the one found in the higher-quality source/abundance of independent equal-quality sources.

What's not valid is replacing the current figure with another figure based on a lower-quality source (because that violates WP:BESTSOURCES) or adding a range of estimates that are based on sources of unequal quality (because that creates a WP:FALSEBALANCE). TompaDompa (talk) 22:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I do not agree with the sources I sent not mattering a bit. Many of these sources (already provided by other users) are official documents giving Portugal territories in Brazil or maps made in 18/19 century showing the portuguese Brazil. Meaning that the portuguese empire must be considered bigger than the brazilian empire in this, therefore the 5,5km figure must be replaced by another. Even if we don't have reliable sources of the 10.4km2 figure (I found this one but i'm not sure it's completly reliable, http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/fileadmin/Documents/research/sri/workingpapers/SRIPs-20_01.pdf page 8, take a look) it is the logical and right choice, because so many articles on the internet show us that same number, proving that it must have been at least some kind of study to reach this number. As it seems you're are the "barrier" to change this number here I think the coice is up to you, what you think we should do? Do you really want to continue with a number based on a single phrase on a book of over 500 pages, which is proved wrong? By now, all of the sources provided in this talk page should at least get the 5,5km figure removed and put the portuguese empire above the brazilian even if it's not the 10.4km figure. We could write a note clarify all of these mess. This is my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.48.210.93 (talk) 13:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

so many articles on the internet show us that same number, proving that it must have been at least some kind of study to reach this number It doesn't prove that at all. A far more likely explanation is that people simply repeat what they have read elsewhere without digging any deeper into where that information originated. I have tried to locate the original source for that figure, and I can't find anything prior to 2008 (namely this source, which obviously isn't an academic study). a number based on a single phrase on a book of over 500 pages The current source is not a book of over 500 pages, but an article in a peer-reviewed academic journal. The journal is what's over 500 pages. what you think we should do? I favour option 1 above. With our current sourcing, it's either that or option 2. TompaDompa (talk) 14:25, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

"A far more likely explanation is that people simply repeat what they have read elsewhere without digging any deeper into where that information originated." No, that's not right. The explanation is simple bacause Brazil belonged to Portugal at the time, meaning the 10.4km figure is the size of Brazil plus the other portuguese colonies.

Meantime I emailed Rein Taagepera himself. I sent the following message "Hello Dear Taagepera.

I'm convinced you're wrong in your statement about the portuguese empire only possessing "effective control over approximately half of Brazil at the time of Brazilian independence in 1822". I have prove that is against this.

The Amazon basin was not unorganized territory. The Brazilian territory that today is part of the Amazon basin was previously the State of Grão-Pará and Maranhão, and was a self-run polity with capital in the city of Belém. The society was organized: there were missions (Jesuits, Franciscans and Dominicans), that spread around the Amazon basin and created what is still today called the 'Aldeias' where Portuguese missionaries lived together with Christianized natives. The Portuguese military also built many forts along the river to secure those areas and founded several cities. Funilly enough, most of this cities actually correspond to the names of Portuguese cities (Santarém, Obidos, Alenquer, etc.), the only area of Brazil where it is so.

Here is a small, not extensive list of cities in the Amazon basin which were founded in colonial Brazil:

Cities founded by the Portuguese in Amazonia during colonial times Barcelos,_Amazonas (founded 1758) Santarém,Pará (founded 1661) Alenquer,_Pará (founded 1758) Borba,_Amazonas (founded 1728) São_Paulo_de_Olivença (founded 1689) São_Gabriel_da_Cachoeira (founded 1668) Forts built by the Portuguese in Amazonia during colonial times Here is a list of forts built around the Border of colonial Brazil as defined by the Treaty of Santo Ildefonso, and described in the book Colonial Brazil by Leslie Bethell, already cited hereBethell, Leslie (1987). Colonial Brazil (PDF). Cambridge England: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521341271.:

Fort_Macapá Fort Gurupá Fort Tapajós Fort Óbidos Fort São_José_do_Rio Negro Fort São Joaquim Fort São_José_das Marabitanas Fort_São_Gabriel_da_Cachoeira Fort São Francisco Xavier de Itabatinga Fort Bragança Fort Príncipe_da_Beira So as you can see, this is clearly not undefined territory. The ihnabitants of this area were subjects of the Crown of Portugal, and later of the Crown of Brazil, and are today part of the Federation of Brazilian States. Brazil's borders and size were pretty much unchanged since the treaty of Santo Ildefonso . Best regards." With the following reponse: "Thanks for the information." It seems that the author of this has not really contested. I sent more messages to him and I await a reply. And one more thing, while reading wikipedia policies and guidelines I came across this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_don%27t_own_Wikipedia. Meaning that you should not be the one to decide what will be changed or not, all I see is many users trying to change the portuguese empire size for years and you being many times the only one against this. By wikipedia rules "You don't own Wikipedia", and because of this you cant be the one to decide. 109.48.210.93 (talk) 18:08, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

The policy WP:OWN is more relevant than the essay WP:YDOW, but this is not a question of ownership but rather one of proper sourcing. The explanation is simple bacause Brazil belonged to Portugal at the time, meaning the 10.4km figure is the size of Brazil plus the other portuguese colonies. Which is it, did all those sources come up with the same figure independently by simple addition or did they get it from the same study? Those are mutually exclusive explanations. What's more, other people have come up with different figures, such as the 8.9 million km² figure I mentioned above, and if one adds up the areas found in the articles Portugal, the Empire of Brazil, Portuguese Angola, and Portuguese Mozambique, one gets 10.5 million km², whereas if one instead does the same things with the articles Portugal, Brazil, Uruguay, Angola, and Mozambique, one gets 10.8 million km². You're committing two separate WP:OR steps here: firstly by the assumption that the existence of cities and forts in the Amazon basin implies effective control over the area between the cities and forts, and secondly by the assumption that effective control over the entirety of modern-day Brazil means that the area of the Portuguese Empire was 10.4 million km². This is textbook WP:SYNTH. I'll quote WP:PRIMARY again: Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. There are other sources that support the notion of the area claimed being significantly different from the area effectively controlled, such as this one which says [I]n 1800 Europe and its possessions, including former colonies, claimed title to about 55 percent of the earth's land surface: Europe, North and South America, most of India, and small sections along the coast of Africa. But much of this was merely claimed; effective control existed over a little less than 35 percent, most of which consisted of Europe itself. TompaDompa (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Like you pointed the figure of 8.9 is "unusable for our purposes because it is WP:SELFPUBLISHED)". There is also a work by Zbigniew Brzezinski on the same topic of global empires that brings forth the 10.4 M Km2 : https://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Brzezinski-Zbigniew.-Strategic-Vision-America-and-the-Crisis-of-Global-Power.pdf which isn't by any means unreliable. "the assumption that the existence of cities and forts in the Amazon basin implies effective control over the area between the cities and forts". Yes cities and forts in the interior of Brazil prove that Portugal controled this area and didn't only had claims. Why is so hard to accept this? What is needed in order to have a full efective control over a place? People and cities everywhere? That's not the way it works, even today in Brazil there is more than 100 uncontacted tribes https://www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/uncontacted-brazil, by your logic modern Brazil would have to be smaller than what really is. British empire for example didn't control of course the entire deserts of Australia and all of Canada and in this list is listed has having 35.5 M km2 which using this "the notion of the area claimed being significantly different from the area effectively controlled" would mean that the Birtish empire would have to be far less than 35.5 million km2. If you want to use that sentence for this list almost all of these empires should have their sizes reduced and not just Portugal (and even then Portugal would be for sure bigger than 5,5M km2). And like I said Rein Taagepera did not dispute what I wrote to him, you completly ignored this. It's time to end this and change the Portuguese empire size once and for all 109.48.210.93 (talk) 12:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

What I was trying to demonstrate with the other estimates for the area is that even assuming that the 5.5 million km² figure is wrong, that doesn't mean that the 10.4 million km² figure is correct. You need to provide WP:RELIABLE sources for the figure you want to include.
Brzezinski's work is a book about 21st century geopolitics that also happens to have a table of historical empires' greatest extents, while citing no sources and providing no information about how the figures were arrived at. The table is about a completely different subject than the rest of the book and as far as I have been able to tell, the table isn't commented on in the text and the subject of historical polities' territorial extents is not mentioned anywhere else in the book. That is about as clear as it gets with regards to WP:RSCONTEXT, which says Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. If one is unable to tell from that that the current source—a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities which outlines its sources and methodology—is by far more WP:RELIABLE for the subject of the territorial extents of historical polities, I don't know what to say. The difference in reliability is so great that even citing both would become a WP:NPOV issue by creating a WP:FALSEBALANCE.
Yes cities and forts in the interior of Brazil prove that Portugal controled this area and didn't only had claims. You seem to have misread what I wrote. The existence of cities and forts doesn't prove that the entire area was effectively controlled. And it really doesn't matter anyway, because even assuming that the entirety of modern-day Brazil was effectively controlled, that doesn't give us a figure for the area which we can attribute to WP:RELIABLE sources.
If we keep reading from this source, the very next sentences are By 1878—that is, before the next major wave of European acquisitions began—an additional 6,500,000 square miles (16,800,000 square kilometers) were claimed; during this period, control was consolidated over the new claims and over all the territory claimed in 1800. Hence, from 1800 until 1878, actual European rule (including former colonies in North and South America), increased from 35 to 67 percent of the earth's land surface. There is no contradiction between a low degree of effective control for one empire in the early 1800s and a high degree of effective control for another empire in the early 1900s.
It is true that I completely ignored your personal correspondence with Taagepera. The reason is that the only thing that matters here is sourcing.

The bottom line is this: you don't have a WP:RELIABLE source for the figure you are suggesting we use instead of the one we are currently using. The only valid options without finding a WP:RELIABLE source are keeping the current figure or removing the entry altogether. Which of those two options do you prefer? TompaDompa (talk) 14:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Both Taagepera and Brzezinski works are WP:RELIABLE, the only difference about the portuguese empire in question is that Taagepera said "effective control over approximately half of Brazil at the time of Brazilian independence in 1822" to reach his 5,5km2 figure. Brzezinski didn't said how he reached the 10.4km2 figure but more than likely he made an estimate of the size of portuguese Brazil plus Portugal itself and the other colonies. Even if the 10.4 million km2 is not the exact size, he puts Brazil as part of Portugal and I and other users proved here on this talk page that Brazil was really controled by Portugal. I know you want to follow wikipedia guidelines but in this case even if we have the most reliable source possible but this source is proved wrong, why you want to keep with the wrong information? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of facts, having false information here is a big problem and serious, it spreads very fast like wildfire. "The existence of cities and forts doesn't prove that the entire area was effectively controlled. And it really doesn't matter anyway, because even assuming that the entirety of modern-day Brazil was effectively controlled, that doesn't give us a figure for the area which we can attribute to WP:RELIABLE sources." Yes it does prove, on which way you consider an area is effectively controlled? It can't get much better than this, having cities and forts it's all about controlling a certain place. And yes it does matter a lot because it proves the portuguese empire was not 5,5 million km2, even if we didn't have a WP:RELIABLE source for another figure, it still matters a lot. The effective control in the 2nd half of the 19 century increased yes but the British empire couldn't magical sudenly control every place they claimed. And even if this is right Portugal had already a pretty good control over Brazil, the various treaties, the gold rush, the explorations by bandeirantes and the forts and cities in Brazil interior prove my point. This is not opinions or studies, this is actuals facts that no one can change, what can happen is someone completly miss this like Taagepera unfourtanely did. And you say that you don't care about what Taagepera said to me, but in a previous discussion of yours with Roqui15 here after he claimed to sent a message to Taagepera you replied with "On a completely different note: if Taagepera replies to your email, please tell us what he said." As for the valid options here I still don't get why it must be you to decide, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_don%27t_own_Wikipedia You don't own Wikipedia, I fail to understand why is up to you to decide this, but anyway, if those are really the 2 options, the 2nd option is clearly the best choice, due to the fact that keeping the current figure would only continue to spread wrong information. Better have non at all than having wrong information. 109.48.210.93 (talk) 16:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Brzezinski is a reliable source but not for that particular information. Please read and understand WP:RSCONTEXT, which says Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. This is a textbook example of just that.
I didn't say I don't care what Taagepera responded, I said it doesn't matter. I am curious about it, but it doesn't affect what we will do here, so I didn't think it warranted a reply from me.
I disagree about whether it is better to keep the current figure as it is or to remove it (in part because I find Taagepera's assertion consistent with Magdoff's, in part because I looked at the source Taagepera used and found it matched), but if more people join the discussion maybe some kind of WP:CONSENSUS will emerge. TompaDompa (talk) 17:23, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

For future reference, the above IP was blocked for WP:BLOCKEVASION, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Roqui15/Archive#21 July 2020. TompaDompa (talk) 19:30, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Melmann 17:30, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

American empire - again

There is an ongoing mini-edit war between some users on this article as to whether or not the listing for an "American empire" should be included. This same issue was debated extensively in 2008 in the talk archives of this page, and the consensus at that time appeared to be in favour of the creation of a "Disputed empires" section in which such an entry could exist. However, this does not appear to have ever been done.

The questions remaining for us today appear to be:

• Is consensus still that there should be a "disputed empires" section?
  • If it is, then
    • should an "American Empire" feature?
    • what other empires should feature?
  • If it isn't, then should an "American Empire" feature in the article as-is?

Tagging in Este0077 and Sasan Hero as contributors who are interested in this. As a note to both of you, please don't edit war in this way - the way to deal with disagreements like this isn't to undo each other's work repeatedly, but rather to have a discussion on the talk page here. Thanks all! | Naypta^✉ opened his mouth at 12:30, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

The whole addition suffers with many problems, and anway a huge OR regarding the scope of the article, since the subject intended to be referred is the United States, but it is NOT an empire, and the American Empire article is about policies, not a state/empire so the whole additions is just heavily problematic, consensus and wider discussion needed.(KIENGIR (talk) 03:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC))

88.121.133.145 quite rightly pointed out on my talk page that the Soviet Union is included in the last table on the page - the table of Timeline of largest empires at the time - but isn't included in any of the others, and Sasan Hero reverted their edit when they tried to add it to the first table (Empires at their greatest extent). I feel this is much the same issue of defining what counts as an empire here - consensus is required urgently on this issue. I'm going to post this thread at both WP:COUNTRIES and WP:HISTORY for their review. | Naypta^✉ opened his mouth at 11:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I tried only reverted 2 edits for those edits belonged to last table on the page ,and 88.121.133.145 tried to put it on first table ,thanks too much Sasan Hero (talk) 11:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

The United States did have colonial possessions - most notably the Philippines - and as such belongs on the list as much as any other state with colonial possessions.

That said, it seems to me that the best idea is probably to drop the distinction - currently based purely on OR (which is why you're having this problem) - between an "empire" and a non-"empire" sovereign state. Include any sovereign state, irrespective of "empire"-ness, and rename the list to "List of largest historical sovereign states" or something. Kahastok talk 12:13, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

We used to include the Soviet Union in an explanatory footnote as a successor state to the Russian Empire until it was removed a few weeks ago. I strongly oppose a "disputed empires" section. The suggestion to rename the list was discussed a bit back in September 2018, see Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7 (several different sections there) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of largest empires (6th nomination). As for the distinction between empires and non-empires, I'll refer you to my comment over at Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 8#Difference between empires and nations. I personally rather like the definition of empire currently used—any relatively large sovereign political entity whose components are not sovereign—and by that definition I don't think there's any strong reason to exclude the US (or for that matter Canada, Australia, or India), but this has been controversial before (again, see discussion—and edit history including this removal—from September 2018). TompaDompa (talk) 13:48, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

So far as I can see, any relatively large sovereign political entity whose components are not sovereign is only really restricted in how we define "relatively large" - which is, of course, entirely subjective. If you want to remove these kinds of arguments, you need criteria that can be determined objectively. This is also as per guidelines for stand-alone lists such as this one. (The definition also rules out international organisations, but I think that's beside the point.)

The smallest entities currently on the list are about 50,000 km² (20,000 sq mi). We're not talking the scale of Canada, Australia and India there. That's equivalent to Costa Rica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, or Slovakia. On that basis you could make a case for at least the first 125 numbered entries on this list.

A better idea might be to split by time period. One might include, for example, the ten or twenty largest sovereign political entities whose components are not sovereign, whose areas at peak size can be approximately determined, in each millennium?

But regardless, if you don't want people arguing the toss over whether Canada or the US is/was an empire - given that the term is not normally used for states like Canada - I think the list will either need to be moved or the inclusion criteria altered to match a more conventional definition of the word "empire". Kahastok talk 14:17, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

The smallest entries are indeed very small. That's why I introduced a threshold corresponding to a minimum of 2% of the world's total land area back in 2016. See Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#Threshold for inclusion, Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#The United States, Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#Suggest you need substantial restructuring of this article, and Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 8#Reliability of sources for the discussion leading to that threshold being removed. I would be in favour of reintroducing that threshold.

I don't think changing to a more conventional definition of "empire" would solve anything; in fact, I think it would lead to more problems as editors would instead argue about whether specific entries meet that definition and applying WP:Original research to make that call (I've made this point before, see Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 8#Unbalanced?)—looking at the talk page archives shows that this has indeed been quite a problem (mostly focused on the United States). The definition currently used is a scholarly one, which in my opinion is preferable to a non-scholarly definition. Of course, [i]n practice, we seem to go by something like "an empire is a political entity that is called an empire by reliable sources" (Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 8#Difference between empires and nations). To my eye, the only approach yet proposed that has any chance of being both reasonably consistent and reasonably complete is to use the current definition by Rein Taagepera (any relatively large sovereign political entity whose components are not sovereign) and applying a threshold for inclusion that is not too low. I don't think that necessitates renaming the list, but if renaming it is what it takes, then so be it. TompaDompa (talk) 15:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I strongly support the inclusion of both American and Soviet empires, the one a colonial power with territories stretching across many time zones, the other a successor state to the Russian empire. Both are called empires in academic literature, and both are forms of colonialism. GPinkerton (talk) 19:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Greater Armenia

Why Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) is not in the list? Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 10:23, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Because no WP:RELIABLE source for its greatest extent has been located as yet. If you know of such a source, please feel free to either add an entry to the list yourself or link to the source here and somebody else (like me, for instance) will surely add it. TompaDompa (talk) 11:56, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll try to find sources. Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 14:35, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete or change the 5.5 million km2 land area of the portuguese empire in this list

Reaching a consensus should be with more people and not with just the TompaDompa user. It seems that this person thinks that this page belongs to him. Quote: "No one, no matter how skilled, or how high-standing in the community, has the right to act as though they are the owner of a particular page" The section I wrote above states that the value of 5.5 million km2 of the portuguese empire in 1815 has to be withdrawn in order to improve this page. BestaMontalegre (talk) 11:57, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Creating more sockpuppets does not make you "more people". Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Roqui15. Cabayi (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Do you think I'm doing this to harm wikipedia? No. I'm doing this because I want to help wikipedia. Do you want to be responsible for spreading false information for 4000 people every day (this page views). By the way I only used 2 accounts in this discussion which was Roqui15 and this one. I never used RoquePedro for this and Ralf302 is my friend and 109.48.210.93 is my cousin.

TompaDompa Ishan87 Britishfinance Alcaios 2A01:4B00:F613:4600:F95B:72DD:7C36:7DF Ralf302 EloctPT Ygglow Work permit Wikaviani Ppteles Empirecoins Simonm223 Fiztea Edmundo Soares Ricardo S1978 FOARP2001:8A0:FF84:8E01:4943:1C5D:CB3E:99E4 87.196.80.152 All of these are different people as far as I know. I will obviously be blocked once again, but so TompaDompa should. He is acting like he owns this page, which is not allowed. And furthermore you two won the battle but you won't win the war. I will do everything to protect the history of my country, we portuguese won't allow this to happen. As you can see here I posted on reddit explaining what's happening and what TompaDompa is doing. https://www.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/hrxgyk/na_wikip%C3%A9dia_inglesa_dizem_que_o_imp%C3%A9rio/ I will publish this everywhere if needed. This obviously won't stop here. BestaMontalegre (talk) 14:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

My cousin emailed TompaDompa idol, Taagepera himself and it looks like he admited that he was not aware of the treaty of madri in 1750 and the cities and forts build in the amazon before 1822. Even when the person responsible for the 5,5m km2 land area admits he is wrong this dude still prefers the wrong size. It's unreal, why no one doesn't do anything? Who is TompaDompa, are people afraid of this person? BestaMontalegre (talk) 18:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@BestaMontalegre: What's your sourced for a published correction to the cited source? We don't go by hearsay or original research. —C.Fred (talk) 00:46, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean with that? The sources that were sent are not hersay or original research, they are completly reliable spources. I didn't understand your question. BestaMontalegre (talk) 02:16, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

What you fail to mention here is that when you say it looks like he admited that he was not aware of the treaty of madri in 1750 and the cities and forts build in the amazon before 1822, what you really mean is that he replied Thanks for the information. to an email that started Hello Dear Taagepera. I'm still convinced you're wrong [...] (for more details about what was apparently said, see here). That's not exactly a retraction. He received an unsolicited email that said that he was wrong 23 years ago. I'm more inclined to interpret his short yet polite response as simply not wanting to engage in further discussion on the subject. Of course, if a retraction is issued we'll remove the figure from the page without delay. I'm not exactly holding my breath, though. TompaDompa (talk) 07:52, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Struck through posts of CU blocked sock, deleted last one as no one had replied — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 14:00, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

True Empire Portuguese with "old maps" I hope to help you improve the content of the Portuguese empire :-)

I suggest that you check the Portuguese Empire, 90% of Brazil as it is in the old maps, the whole coast of Africa, the entire coast of India and the whole of India about 40%, in the islands of Indonesia, a little bit of China, the lands in northern canada that have portuguese names, the rest you know etc etc, summarize all of this and give a considerable value, because you are not the owners of reason there are old maps claiming all this, and this is worth more than any writer. The British Empire is easier to see because you have evidence in the 20th century, and you as friends of long-standing Portuguese have an obligation to value and reach a fair understanding of the Portuguese Empire. In the case of Brazil it is not even discussed, the states of Brazil were formed many years and centuries ago, many before independence, so within those states after independence they were formed if other states and Portugal always maintained control of the whole of Brazil or at least 90% of what we see today, obviously in independence he lost control, because he gave Brazil independence, I don't see what the doubt is, everything is documented and written by these Portuguese people. So modern writers are irrelevant to this type of content. Here it shows the date in Roman numerals, of the formation of the States of Brazil the states of Brazil were Portuguese territory, this map is from 1822 "Link": https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Imperio_do_Brazil_1822.jpg map of the Portuguese kings on the Portuguese Empire and Spanish Empire "link": https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N58cG2YGuk8/V-U-MCFY9_I/AAAAAAAARU8/CJt8oeEq70IX7DAjA97eFR44TJxihPVfQCLcB/s1600/07.jpg portuguese empire in asia "link": https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugueses_na_Ásia#/media/Ficheiro:Asia_oceania_anonymous_c1550.jpg map of cantino, and empire Portuguese "blue and red portuguese flags" Link: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planisfério_de_Cantino#/media/Ficheiro:Cantino_planisphere_(1502).jpg map of portuguese canadá other "old map" you can see where the portuguese flag is and where it is in canada: http://www.filorbis.pt/colombo/PedroReynel1504.jpg Terra Nova "Labrador" Portuguese Empire "flag portuguese again": http://afmata-tropicalia.blogspot.com/2011/02/artigo-em-construcao-baia-de-sao-joao.html Portuguese Map of Asia (1630) "names in Portuguese language": https://vividmaps.com/portuguese-map-of-asia-1630/ The best proofs besides the written ones are in fact the old maps and there are some that I sent here, so get to an acceptable number for the Portuguese Empire because in fact it is much bigger than you put. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Boron (talk • contribs) 16:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC) Hope this helps, Thanks :-) (Mark Boron (talk) 14:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC))

modern writers are irrelevant to this type of content You have that backwards. Wikipedia prefers modern (WP:AGEMATTERS), WP:SECONDARY sources to contemporary WP:PRIMARY sources. See my reply above for further details. TompaDompa (talk) 14:15, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

If you are here because someone asked/sent/recruited you.

• Please see the other declined edit requests.
• Please see WP:SOCK.
• Please see WP:MEAT.
• Please see WP:PROXYING

Thanks, --Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:53, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Second French empire 1920?!

The table shows 1920 for the Second French empire. At that time there was obviously no French empire any more. --Werfur (talk) 19:27, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean? France did not decolonize until well after World War II. See French colonial empire. TompaDompa (talk) 20:25, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

@Werfur: Eh? French Indochina? Algeria#French colonization (1830–1962)? French Morocco? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 12:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Zulu Empire

I am waiting for the explanation why the Zulu empire should be on the list (apart from the source, the Zulu Empire was 30,000 km2, the Tarascan state 75000 km2, the Aztec Empire 220 000 km2 , so something is apparently wrong here...also the mother article should reflect such claims, but given the data drawn from there, either the ordering is false of the list, or the datas....(KIENGIR (talk) 11:13, 11 July 2020 (UTC))

I corrected the figure over at Zulu Empire. As for why it's included, the short answer is that WP:CONSENSUS is that there should be no minimum area for inclusion on the list. To quote myself from a section further up on the talk page, The smallest entries are indeed very small. That's why I introduced a threshold corresponding to a minimum of 2% of the world's total land area back in 2016. See Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#Threshold for inclusion, Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#The United States, Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 7#Suggest you need substantial restructuring of this article, and Talk:List of largest empires/Archive 8#Reliability of sources for the discussion leading to that threshold being removed. I would be in favour of reintroducing that threshold. TompaDompa (talk) 11:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2020

"Change Ottoman Empire Area from 5.2 to 2.3 And Hephthalite Empire to 6.5mil km2 ( 4 + 2.5 due to Sassanid Vassals) Gurjara Pratihara Empire area was 2.8mil km2 Kushan Empire area was 4mil km2" 2409:4053:2E9C:AAD0:E1D1:296:D287:43FB (talk) 19:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:45, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

First/Second/Third Portuguese Empire

The three separate entries for the first, second, and third Portuguese Empire were recently replaced with a single entry for the Portuguese Empire, with the reason given being that there was no second or third empire – only a single Portuguese Empire. The division into three phases—designated the "first empire", "second empire", and third empire", respectively–while not universally applied, is used by some sources. For this reason, I am restoring the three separate entries. TompaDompa (talk) 14:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Portuguese America (old map) 1821 Brazil, (Source): National Library of Portugal, Protection by Portuguese Republic

Blocked WP:SOCK, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mark Boron/Archive#20 September 2020. TompaDompa (talk) 20:38, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hello everyone, I hope everything is ok, I would like to add that I found a map that is in the national library of Portugal, a map that is from 1821 of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves, and that is under government protection Portuguese. This map from (1821) portrays the dimension of Brazil at the time under the Reign of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves, (Source): National Library of Portugal, Portuguese Republic, "Exhibition": http://purl.pt/880/3 / General Website: http://www.bnportugal.gov.pt and also found one study of empires peer-reviewed, that says the size of the Portuguese Empire and of all empires "page 66"":[[1]](Source): Rockefeller University, New York City [[2]], also WP:BESTSOURCES Have a good weekend, Thanks (Expert Master (talk) 01:26, 20 September 2020 (UTC)) block evasion. strike comments. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 13:00, 20 September 2020 (UTC) This source, Quantitative Dynamics of Human Empires, has been brought up before (this link which leads to a different layout of the same source has been posted on this talk page), so I'll say the same thing I said before: It doesn't say that the Portuguese Empire ever had a territorial extent of 13.4 million km2. The "saturation" is a mathematical construct which extrapolates from the data points that exist to a theoretical maximum based on the growth rate, not a data point in itself. In other words, the Portuguese Empire was on the trajectory to reach 13.4 million square kilometers in area, but – as the source says – failed prematurely. You'll note that the source describes the saturation as "the area or niche the empire aimed to fill". TompaDompa (talk) 10:43, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion Second Portuguese Empire

Blocked sock. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mark Boron. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 14:16, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hey Rein Taagepera's theory is a good source, but in the case of the Portuguese empire he put there 5.5 in the second Portuguese empire but he put several question marks about the area of ​​the Portuguese empire, you can see here in the link (document xls Download) : irows.ucr.edu/research/citemp/data/empsizes.xls I send here a book also from a trusted source called "Strategic Vision: America and the Crisis of Global Power By Zbigniew Brzezinski - link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=55BVDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT17&dq=Strategic+Vision:+America+and+the+Crisis+of+Global+Power+Portuguese+Empire+km2&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwilmorp7YrsAhVNzhoKHQk8C0gQ6AEwAHoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q=Strategic%20Vision%3A%20America%20and%20the%20Crisis%20of%20Global%20Power%20Portuguese%20Empire%20km2&f=false (JJ Mag (talk) 12:50, 28 September 2020 (UTC)) comments made by a sock Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 14:16, 28 September 2020 (UTC) I'll say the same thing I've said before: Brzezinski's work is a book about 21st century geopolitics that also happens to have a table of historical empires' greatest extents, while citing no sources and providing no information about how the figures were arrived at. The table is about a completely different subject than the rest of the book and as far as I have been able to tell, the table isn't commented on in the text and the subject of historical polities' territorial extents is not mentioned anywhere else in the book. That is about as clear as it gets with regards to WP:RSCONTEXT, which says Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. If one is unable to tell from that that Taagepera's work—a peer-reviewed scientific article specifically about the territorial extents of historical polities which outlines its sources and methodology—is by far more WP:RELIABLE for the subject of the territorial extents of historical polities, I don't know what to say. The difference in reliability is so great that even citing both would become a WP:NPOV issue by creating a WP:FALSEBALANCE. TompaDompa (talk) 13:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC) Ok I just wanted to help but I am just saying that Rein Taagepera are not sure of the area of Portuguese Empire because it puts several question marks there as I sent you in the xls document made by him, can I try to find other sources, can you tell me some kind of other tipe sources that you find reliable for the article? (JJ Mag (talk) 13:50, 28 September 2020 (UTC)) comments made by a sock Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 14:16, 28 September 2020 (UTC)