Talk:Macedonian denar

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Requested move 5 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 08:07, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

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Macedonian denar → Denar of North Macedonia or North Macedonian denar – The official name for the currency is "denar" and a quick google search confirms that the common name is North Macedonian denar. I have noticed that other wiki pages about North Macedonia avoid adjectives and prefer the form "... of North Macedonia" in titles and my proposal is to move this page to "Denar of North Macedonia".

UPDATE(12/10/2024): Archive 2 hides a move request from 2022 backed-up with reliable sources. I quote the summary of it:

List of Reliable Sources (North Macedonian denar: 135 findings, North Macedonia denar: 57 findings, Macedonian denar: 89 findings)

and there is only one page for my initial proposal "Denar of North Macedonia".

Therefore, based on reliable sources, which is the most important criterion for reaching consensus: 70% of reliable webpages include "North" (48% is North Macedonian denar) and only 30% use "Macedonian denar".

Open Free Eye (talk) 21:59, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Did a quick search on Google Scholar and Macedonian denar is more common. You should put the term in quotation marks, otherwise you will not get accurate results. StephenMacky1 (talk) 22:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Of course I used quotes, and I look only at reliable sources like various banks, organizations, etc. I suppose you oppose about what is the common name. You don't refuse the reality that other wiki pages about North Macedonia avoid the adjective and prefer the form "of North Macedonia". This is the main question of this Move Request. It would be nice and of special value to other users if you could explain why you agree or disagree about moving this page to "Denar of North Macedonia" provided that all other pages use the same form. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 22:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

What matters is that this article's title is consistent with other articles' titles like Albanian lek, Bulgarian lev and etc. All in line with WP:CONSISTENT. There is an article which does not use the form "of North Macedonia", such as North Macedonian passport, as well as the elections' articles. StephenMacky1 (talk) 22:59, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, basically you made very good arguments in favour of "North Macedonian denar" because as you said this article should be consistent with pages of other countries, and other countries use the name of the country which is North Macedonia and not Macedonia, so I agree with you. You also provided the right arguments in favour of "North Macedonian denar" by saying that there are other pages about North Macedonia that use the adjective North Macedonian like for passport, elections, etc. I agree also with your arguments that none of them explains why Macedonian denar is still the name of the page. It's neither common nor official, it's not consistent with currency pages of other countries, and it's not consistent with other pages of North Macedonia that either use "of North Macedonia" or "North Macedonian". I have updated the proposed name to include both options. Thanks! Cheers. Open Free Eye (talk) 23:32, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Denar of North Macedonia - Most, if not all modern currency articles follow the "Country currency" format, so I see no reason to break this standard. I am neutral about North Macedonian denar, as while it may be technically more accurate, it seems "Macedonian denar" is by far the WP:COMMONNAME. If this discussion is closed as not moved, then we should definitely revisit this in a few years. - ZLEA _T\^C 07:39, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject North Macedonia and WikiProject Numismatics have been notified of this discussion. Web-julio (talk) 03:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Your reasoning about "Denar of North Macedonia" sounds correct to me, the only reason I propose it because is that this is the format other pages of North Macedonia use. Please look at [Category:Nationality_law], North Macedonia is the only country that has a different format.

North Macedonian denar is indeed technically more correct. I don't agree the common name is Macedonian denar. We should be very careful the way we read numbers, after excluding unreliable sources which is the majority of what google reports, and after looking at pages that were published only once the country changed its name to North Macedonia, we get by far much fewer results about Macedonian denar. In my opinion we should also consider that many webpages still call the country Macedonia or FYROM because the page was never updated.

North Macedonia was renamed because of the dispute with Greece. If we invite contributors to the North Macedonia pages to tell us what is the right name for the currency, then we will always get the same answer because the majority of them is from North Macedonia and there is a clear bias as they still call their country Macedonia. Could you please invite people from WikiProject Greece to add their arguments on this move request? What matters is the arguments of people and not their votes. Thanks! Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 08:45, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree Generally it is true, that search engines and generally the sources, show the term "macedonian" as more common than "of North Macedonian". But this is a matter that in my opinion has to do with what is actually more accurate, and not the sources. The term "Denar of North Macedonia", is more accurate, and also neutral, and it is also similar to the Nationality Law page. Greek Rebel (talk) 21:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. This was already discussed two years ago. I still have the source justification at my sandbox. That discussion was plagued by sockpuppets and, just at first glance, it looks like we may have such an issue again. --Local hero ^talk 20:28, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The sandbox focuses on "Macedonian denar", there is 1 "Denar of North Macedonia" and no "North Macedonian denar". From a scientific point of view presenting only numbers for one side is not considered evidence. A non-negligible number of webpages in the sandbox is broken, is unrelated to denar, its publication date isn't necessarily after the country's new name, and perhaps the most important problem is that many of these webpages do not look reliable, for example blogs (and not only)? Open Free Eye (talk) 19:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose – Per Local hero. Svartner (talk) 07:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Update Digging into archived discussions brings us into a study of reliable sources pointed out per Local hero and is now included in the comment of the request. The study includes a collection of webpages and shows that 70% of them use the new name of North Macedonia. In my humble opinion this update makes this move request trivial and "North" should be included in the title of the page. The decision between "Denar of North Macedonia" and "North Macedonian denar" is non-trivial. The first option is not common name and the arguments made by other users are correct, and I understand why they oppose, but is there a policy in favour of it? Experienced users can help us with that. If no policy limits us, then in my humble opinion North Macedonian denar looks the only reasonable option and reaches consensus by considering all the arguments made so far and the 70% of reliable sources that support it. Wikipedia tells us what Consensus means:

Consensus on Wikipedia neither requires unanimity (which is ideal but rarely achievable), nor is it the result of a vote.

For good reasons the 70% in favour of "North" is quantifiable and cannot be disputed by personal opinions. Open Free Eye (talk) 10:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.