Talk:Pot o' Gold (Glee)

o' or O' (or 'O or "of"!)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Composition titles recommends that prepositions such as of remain lowercase in titles, but the episode title is written as "Pot O' Gold" in the Ask Ausiello ref given in Glee (season 3). O' can be both a contraction of the preposition of and a part of an Irish name (see O'). Would renaming this article to "Pot O' Gold (Glee)" be in violation of WP:MOS? Jusses2 (talk) 04:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I would normally say that we need to give due deference to the actual orthography of the title as given by Fox, although I'm pretty sure that it's the contraction and not the name. The problem is that we don't know that for sure. Ausiello is, alas, prone to typos and the like, so even though he gives it as a capital "O", there's no guarantee that this is correct. We won't know for sure until around October 17 or 18, when the Fox press release for the episode is published... and even then, Fox can be sloppy, too, as witness "Becky Jackson" being written as "Becky Johnson" for the first episode, or the entire guest cast list from "Prom Queen" being repeated on the "Funeral" press release last season, even though several characters in the former did not appear in the latter. But I'm hoping that someone with more experience than I have comes along with an opinion. Might this be considered analogous to "Hell-O" in terms of capitalization? Or, as you note, like "of", "to", and "the". BlueMoonset (talk) 06:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

According to the episode guide on the FOX website, the title of this episode is "Pot 'O Gold". I have moved this page to agree with the title given by FOX. This reference is now listed in Glee (season 3). Jusses2 (talk) 06:17, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

As noted elsewhere, while I agree we must go with Fox for now, it should be noted that both Ausiello and now Gonzalez (of Entertainment Weekly, as seen here both agree that the apostrophe is where you'd expect it (and makes sense grammatically), after the "O". BlueMoonset (talk) 07:28, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

We now have competing press releases, which means three official orthographies for the spelling of the episode name. Fox is a mess. Today's was the November sweeps press release as seen here, which goes with "Pot O' Gold", matching Ausiello and Gonzalez. The episode press release used the title we have now, "Pot of Gold". The website episode list gives the highly improbable "Pot 'O Gold", which I think we can decide is a typo.

Before we go renaming it again—and thank heavens this didn't break yesterday while the article was on the front page for "Did You Know?"—I'd like to wait for Fox to at least publish both of these press releases on their FoxFlash website, where they become a bit more official than they are on sites like The Futon Critic and SpoilerTV.com, although I suspect that the discrepancy between the episode press release and the sweeps month press release will be retained. In that case, what to do? Go with the most recent, which is the November sweeps one? I can handle either one, but it's getting tiring replace the episode title in the dozen places where it's replicated, and having to do so practically daily. Yes, there are redirects, but we should give the correct title wherever possible. If only we knew which variant it was... BlueMoonset (talk) 17:32, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

We have more data. Both of the press releases have been published on the Fox Flash site—the one in the week's schedule still says "Pot of Gold", and the one for the November sweeps says "Pot O' Gold". However, we have a new entry in the mix, the Episode Photos page, which has several photos, all of which say "Pot O' Gold". Given two new Fox sources which actually agree, and also match the Ausiello and Gonzalez sourcing, I sense the scales beginning to tip... Should we go ahead and move it, or wait for another source BlueMoonset (talk) 05:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Final title: "Pot O' Gold"

I'm about to make the change in article title. After initial press reports of "Pot O' Gold", we had the Fox promo page saying "Pot 'O Gold", which is absurd, in retrospect, and the initial Fox press release on the week the episode was being broadcast that read "Pot of Gold", which was plausible, though less Irish. However, immediately following that press release came the November sweeps press release giving "Pot O' Gold", the six episode photos giving "Pot O' Gold", and now yesterday's press release on Chord Overstreet's return, which also says the next episode is "Pot O' Gold".

With three "Pot O' Gold" uses in a row from Fox official publicity, I think we can safely go with that title, move this article, and update the various other pages using the title accordingly. So I'm about to do just that. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. --Another Believer _(Talk) 18:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I moved the article to "Pot O' Gold" as well. Links will need to be updated, but hopefully no additional changes will need to be made. --Another Believer _(Talk) 18:28, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I did submit a technical request on the move page, which I've just removed. The bot double-redirect prevented me from doing the fix myself. Now for the cleanup! BlueMoonset (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Later: I notice that we now have "Pot O' Gold" for us, while "Pot o' Gold" is still used for the 1939 radio show and 1941 movie based on same. I should have been more clear above that I was going to continue using the (Glee) if I'd been able to rename it. Maybe we should stick with "Pot O' Gold (Glee)"? That other article has been around for over three years, and I'm not sure how good an idea it is to have basically identical names except for the capitalization of one letter. Thoughts? BlueMoonset (talk) 20:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with the inclusion of "(Glee)", though I am no WP disambiguation expert. --Another Believer _(Talk) 23:37, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Adding "(Glee)" to the title could save a lot of headache in the long run, should anything else named "Pot O' Gold" come up in the future. Jusses2 (talk) 05:16, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for taking a couple of days to reply - I knew there was a guideline dealing with this exact circumstance, but it's taken me this long to pin it down. It's at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization), and advises:

It is acceptable to create two articles (on different topics) with titles that differ only in capitalization. If this arises, place a hatnote at the top of each page, linking each to a dedicated disambiguation page or to the other article. It is also acceptable to use names that are differentiated in other ways; which approach should be taken may vary from case to case, balancing such considerations as the risk of confusion in using one set of names against the departure from brevity and common usage in using the other.

So essentially, either the current name or the (Glee) disambiguator would be fine. I don't really have a preference either way, but of note, we do have both "Don't Stop Believing" and "Don't Stop Believin'" which is not quite the same situation but fairly similar, and doesn't seem to have caused too much confusion thanks to the hatnotes. Frickative 12:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm feeling very King Log-ish at the moment, so as I don't really have a preference as long as the rules don't either, I'm not going to take any further action. If someone does prefer the disambiguation, they're welcome to make the change as long as they're willing to make the many necessary fixes afterward. (Speaking of which, I've adjusted the hatnote on the Pot o' Gold article to reflect the current name here.) BTW, the first official preview for the episode was posted less than 24 hours ago on EW, and does give the title as "Pot O' Gold", so I think we can breathe a sigh of relief in terms of having (finally) gotten the episode title right. BlueMoonset (talk) 10:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to note, given that there has been debate about the best title for the page, yet it was listed as an uncontroversial request for moving, I've left a quick note with the moving admin suggesting a move discussion. Frickative 12:54, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

• At 10:20, 2 November 2011‎ I (= User:Anthony Appleyard) moved Pot O' Gold to Pot o' Gold (Glee), obeying an uncontroversial-type move request in this edit of Wikipedia:Requested moves. I redirected Pot O' Gold and Pot o' Gold to disambig page Pot of Gold. OK, I will start a discussed move about this. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:37, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:49, 10 November 2011 (UTC) Pot o' Gold (Glee) → ? – - See previous section in Talk:Pot o' Gold (Glee). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:37, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

• It seems to me that there are two issues at play here. The first is whether the article can be considered to be the predominant one for this title, and thus be the primary article, as "Pot O' Gold" or "Pot o' Gold". The other is whether the "O'" or "o'" is more appropriate, which would seem to depend on whether it's considered an equivalent for "of", and therefore lowercase as per MOS:CT, or something else—although there was a "leprechaun" in the episode, the so-called "Pot O' Gold" (the orthography used by the network) was definitely not what one would expect. Right now, theh plain "Pot o' Gold" redirects to "Pot of Gold", which is a disambiguation page, since the old combined radio show and film page that had been "Pot o' Gold" is now "Pot o' Gold (film)" and "Pot o' Gold (radio program)". At this point, if the capital "O" is allowable, I'd like it, but otherwise I'm still King Log about this. All I ask is that whatever decision is made here, let's hew to it for a good while. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
• Keep as is. As BlueMoonset says, there is more than one issue at play. On the issue of O' vs o', I believe we should keep it lowercase because o' is the equivalent of of and WP:CAPS says we should downcase of in titles. On the second issue, I think that the (Glee) disambiguation is necessary because a) Pot o' Gold is ambiguous with Pot of Gold and b) there is no evidence that the Glee episiode is a primary topic over the film and the radio program anyway. Jenks24 (talk) 00:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Collaboration

(Same disclaimer as at Talk:The Purple Piano Project: I'm specifically addressing BlueMoonset here, but of course anyone else who wishes to contribute should join right in!)

Do you have any thoughts on how you'd like to divvy this one up? Perhaps we could trial one of us writing the critical response and the other the music reviews, just to see how it goes? I know before we leaned away from that because it means both of us reading all the reviews, but we probably have a good enough idea of which reviewers will go in-depth on the songs to minimise redundancy. If you'd prefer a different division though, I'm open to whatever :) Frickative 20:37, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I suppose that splitting music and critical could work. I have to say, though, that when I took a preliminary look at a bunch of reviews today, it didn't look like this was going to be one of those episodes, like "Asian F", where there was going to be enjoyment from pulling together those sections of the article. This was not a popular episode with critics, unfortunately. And I wasn't fond of the Quinn/Puck/Shelby storylines myself. I don't feel much urgency to start on this one, I must confess... Which of us should assemble the links? (I didn't edit any while doing my survey today, which wasn't terribly bright of me.) BlueMoonset (talk) 04:41, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Hm, if you don't think you're going to enjoy this one much, I don't mind doing both sections? I thought it was a thoroughly mediocre episode, but in an odd sort of way I quite like it when the critics voice disgruntlement, because it's at least a change of pace from uniformly praising storylines I hate, ha. Frickative 11:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

If you want to take both sections, please be my guest. It would probably also make sense for you to take a look at the Production section, since it's a product of gradual accretion. I've just done an updating now that the episode has aired, but this would be more for structure and smoothness; since I wrote it, it all looks good to me. :-) I'd like to revise the Plot section, editing for length and smoothness, and I'll also be happy to take care of the Ratings and Chart history sections. (I'll give the former its start today.) Let me know whether this will work for you. Thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 14:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Yep, that sounds perfectly fine to me! I'll compile a sources list tonight/tomorrow morning, then start putting together the reviews in my usual sandbox. (Out of interest, do you happen to know if this episode's 18-49 rating was an all-time low for Glee?) Frickative 20:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Great! I'll put myself on the list for "The First Time", and list you for "Pot O' Gold". :-) They've done an "Asian F"-style preview today for "The First Time" with the same big three: TVLine, E! Online and EW. I'll be adding that info to that episode's article in a bit. As for "Pot O' Gold", it's not quite the lowest for 18-49. "Hairography" has that distinction, with a 2.5/7, though that episode aired the night before Thanksgiving. Aside from that, it's tied for second lowest with "Preggers" at 3.0/8. In terms of total viewing numbers, it's about average for an episode in the first thirteen. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:40, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if this helps or not, but I posted quite a few links on the Rory Flanagan talk page in case any of them assist with the expansion of this article. --Another Believer _(Talk) 17:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Frickative, I thought I should let you know that the ratings data is in for everywhere but the UK, and the charting data, meager as it is, has been included as well. There may be more of the latter to come from Australia or Ireland, but I think it would only be worth mentioning if a song other than "Last Friday Night" charts in one of those countries. It's going to be a week or two before I can tackle "The First Time" music or reception sections—small tasks aren't a problem, but something that big will take large blocks of time that just aren't available. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:00, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

AB, thanks for the pointer, those links will definitely come in handy for the Development section! Blue, that makes me feel better about being pushed for time myself, haha. I thought I'd have this one done by now, but it could be a couple of weeks before I can really get back into gear. I'd be happy to do "Mash-Off" as well, though, if you want to keep alternating (she says, while pointedly ignoring the outstanding s2 articles still on her to-do list!) Frickative 22:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Let's wait to see what kind of progress either of us makes on our mutual outstanding ones. If I finish "The First Time" before "I Kissed a Girl" is broadcast, then I may want to move on to "Mash Off" since it'll be the only outstanding episode. Otherwise, if "I Kissed a Girl" has a clear DYK that seems appropriate, a crash build of that episode may be in order to get the 5x qualifier. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:42, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

No Glee Song Charted

I may be incorrect, but as far as I know, no song from Glee has charted this week. I think this is a first for the series, where after an episode has aired a song has NOT charted from it. Can someone verify this? If verified, I think we ahould add it to the article. Kanavb (talk) 09:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

It's still too early to tell. Songs from this episode are still in their initial sales week, which ends this weekend—they basically get Tuesday through Sunday sales figures counted—and the Billboard charts for it will post on Thursday the 10th, with articles starting to appear the day before. An interesting point to make is that these are basically iTunes sales, since Amazon and other places don't get to sell Glee songs for a full week after their release on iTunes; Amazon will be offering these songs starting on November 8.

I'll have to remember to check the Irish charts to see if the two Damian McGinty songs do well there. Glee songs haven't been making the top 50 there for a while, but he may have a fanbase. BlueMoonset (talk) 13:20, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Just one in the US and Canada: "Last Friday Night". Will still be checking Ireland next week. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

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