Talk:The Pandemic Special

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Also discuss that this is probably the first premiere of South Park to simulcast on other ViacomCBS channels

The show appears on MTV and MTV2's schedule at 8pm. http://www.mtv.com/tv-schedule and http://www.mtv.com/tv-schedule/mtv2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ynkno13 (talk • contribs) 12:03, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Trivial info at best. Stick to the main factors of the article. - SanAnMan (talk) 18:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Honest question, why is that trivial when the VMA page notes the channels it aired on? Both are special one-time events highly publicized across the ViacomCBS channels. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just curious. Anthony Guidetti (talk) 22:25, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

You're comparing apples with oranges, you're comparing a major annual production special to a one-time special episode of a series. In addition, the official press release makes no mention of the alternative channels and neither has any of the other existing sources. See WP:OSE and WP:GNG for further info. - SanAnMan (talk) 13:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

This was just released Anthony Guidetti (talk) 16:08, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

A press release makes it noteworthy. Details have been added, along with another source found to back up the press release. Appreciate your cooperation in the matter. - SanAnMan (talk) 16:28, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Season premiere or standalone special?

Both Comedy Central's website (http://www.cc.com/episodes/yy0vjs/south-park-the-pandemic-special-season-24-ep-2401) and South Park Studios' website (https://www.southparkstudios.com/video-clips/2eflzd/south-park-the-pandemic-special) refers to this episode as the premiere episode of Season 24, contrary to this article. However, the last time when I tried to edit this article, @SanAnMan: accused me of vandalism, and threatened me of revoking my editing privileges. I asked them why my edit was "vandalism", didn't get an answer. So what is this episode then? A special or a season premiere? Comedy Central says it's the latter. WolfmanFP (talk) 08:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

A TV guide listing does not constitute a change in the facts. The Comedy Central press release along with multiple articles cited all state that this episode was a special episode. Comedy Central has *ALWAYS* in the past made a big press release when they actually have their season premiere. That has not happened yet. Until it does, we will have to accept for the time being that this is in fact a special episode. Now obviously, if an official announcement comes out later that changes this, we can adjust it then, but until then we have to go with what's been reported by reliable sources, not just a tv listing. - SanAnMan (talk) 19:10, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Wolfman. The official Comedy Central website is a reliable source to confirm that this episode is indeed the Season 24 premiere. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:52, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

There is no way that a video site from Comedy Central that is basically a TV LISTING is of more authority than the OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE FROM COMEDY CENTRAL. As I stated earlier you can look through history and see that CC will always issue an official press release when the season is ready to premiere. The article also has multiple other cites which all say this is a special episode. - SanAnMan (talk) 00:59, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Please change it back to being part of Season 24 because I can confirm that somebody on the South Park Forum asked the moderator who works for South Park Studios if the special was part of season 24 or not, and he stated that this special was the season premiere and we could expect 4 more specials this year since the special takes up two weeks of a regular dates. Ignore the air dates, those are unconfirmed but it's likely to see 4 more specials for Season 24. https://southpark.cc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=1112851#p1112851 131.156.156.130 (talk) 13:34, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

@131.156.156.130: Blogs and forums are probably about the furthest thing that can be imagined from a reliable source. The overwhelming number of sources cited that state this was a special episode clearly outweigh. - SanAnMan (talk) 13:55, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment - The definition according to the wiki page for Television Special says “stand-alone episode”. CaffeinAddict (talk) 14:44, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I think we can put to bed the argument over whether this was a special or a season premiere. If this episode was the start of a new season, there would be an announcement of the next episode by now, but there's not. Plus, the weight of all the sources in this article all point towards this being a special. Examples:

1. South Park Press Release: "a one-hour special event", no mention whatsoever about a new season
2. Den of Geek article: "Editor’s note: This story has been updated to reflect that the episode is a special event, not the premiere of season 24."
3. CNN article: "A premiere date for the 24th season of the series has not yet been announced."
4. Entertainment Weekly article: "The show's 24th season premiere date hasn't yet been announced"
5. Decider.com article: "'The Pandemic Special' will be the first special in South Park's history. It's not connected to this upcoming season and will be a standalone, hourlong episode. There's a good and bad side to that news. The bad is that 'The Pandemic Special' is the only South Park episode that we know is premiering in 2020. Comedy Central has yet to announce when Season 24 will start"
6. IGN review article: "there's no new season on the horizon"

I realize that opponents to this have been frequently using this video link and/or the IMDB link, but neither of these are reliable sources. We've got six reliable sources in the article that all have a consensus on this being a special. - SanAnMan (talk) 12:46, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

SanAnMan, Four editors (Wolfman, Unnamed, 131..., and myself say it's season 24 and so does https://southpark.cc.com/seasons/south-park/wjz4g1/season-24). One says it's not. Consensus is that it's season 24. Please see WP:CONSENSUS. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Koavf, You'll notice that none of them objected to the decision reached that this was not Season 24. Now you're the only one. You've gone against a discussion already made and discussed on the talk page and gone off on your own tangent based on one video link, which is discussed above. Taking this to admins - SanAnMan (talk) 03:55, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

SanAnMan, Oh, please do: I'd love for more of them to see your behavior. Thanks for saving me the trouble. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:14, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

SanAnMan, Did you reach out to any admins yet? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

SanAnMan: "There is no way that a video site from Comedy Central that is basically a TV LISTING is of more authority than the OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE FROM COMEDY CENTRAL."

What??? Are you kidding? How can one be more authoritative than the other when both are official works put out by Comedy Central?

You also said above that this video link is not a reliable source. How do you figure this? South Park is broadcast by Comedy Central. That video link is on Comedy Central's website for the series. It's entirely reliable. If Comedy Central flat-out says on that page that it's part of Season 24, then it is. That's pretty straightforward.

Press releases tend to be written by PR/marketing personnel, rather than those directly involved with the production or broadcast of the work, so maybe that was simply a way to hype up the special, which underscores the sometimes problematic nature of relying on materials that whose function is promotional. It's clear that the production and broadcast personnel consider this Season 24, and that trumps articles from Den of Geek or EW to the contrary. Nightscream (talk) 01:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

What source do you have demonstrating what the production and broadcast think? All I've seen is this [1] which doesn't look like something that the production or broadcast personnel were involved in. I agree that the press release is not inherently more reliable either, but so far, I've seen no source which clearly describes the view of the production and broadcast personnel. Nil Einne (talk) 05:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I had a quick look and it seems most sites showing this episode, except I think HBO Max (not an RS but see [2]), are listing it as season 24. I don't really know but would guess this probably came from someone involved in distribution. I suspect but don't know, that it may in part reflect the complexity of handling specials as something set up around seasons doesn't always have a simple way to add them. Interesting it seems that the special was once listed as episode 13 of season 24 [3] [4]. I assume this probably reflects the earlier mentioned complexity of handling specials. The fact that most sources which actually talk about whether this is part of season 24, instead of these simple listings, seem to claim it isn't season 24 (AFAICT), leads me to think it's not part of season 24 although even then they don't all agree e.g. [5]. Still I'd be quite interested in this source which allegedly tells us the view of the production and broadcast personnel. Nil Einne (talk) 05:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Nil Einne: "All I've seen is this [6] which doesn't look like something that the production or broadcast personnel were involved in." That's Comedy Central's website. Comedy Central broadcasts the show and funds its production. Just who precisely did you think put up that website? Nightscream (talk) 14:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

In an attempt to compromise and show good faith, I have changed the top of the article to reflect the contention and debate as to whether or not the episode is or is not the debut of the season. I believe this reflects a fair and accurate statement of the debate going on, and I have included cites from both sides of the argument. - SanAnMan (talk) 14:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

SanAnMan I fully agree that these sources are reliable, but not for the purpose they are being given on this page. Secondary sources, as I mentioned earlier, are excellent for determining an episode's notability and existence. The thing is, most of the sources about the conflicting info on whether this is part of season 24 are from people who likely do not have insider info, and thus their guess is as good as ours. In my opinion, they could be moved around so that resourcings are not broken, but for the only way any of the non-Comedy Central sources could be reliable for the purpose they are being given (I repeat, these are reliable sources, but not for their given purpose) is if another source confirmed that IGN or DenofGeek are in contact with Comedy Central in some way. Unnamed anon (talk) 21:46, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

SanAnMan, I want you to explain why you believe that sources from journalists are considered reliable for the question of whether this is the premiere or a special. I'm opposed to having these sources here not because they conflict, but because besides the two comedy central sources, the claims of these journalists and news sources are just as valid as any random person on the street. Unless there are other sources that these news sources have insider information, only comedy central is a reliable source on the special/premiere debacle. The news sources are reliable for many purposes, such as the episode's existence, release, and reception, but not something unconfirmed by the primary source, as that would be WP:OR from the secondary source. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:16, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

It is not my responsibility to explain reliable sources to you, or why they are being used, especially when you are the only editor currently carrying this stance that these sources should be removed. You are not providing any policy or justification as to why they should be removed other than your opinion that any source outside of Comedy Central cannot be considered reliable. WP:NOR specifically refers to you, the author, creating your own opinions, it does not mean that opinion articles written by established opinion authors should be discredited. I suggest you review WP:RS, WP:NOR, WP:PRIMARY, WP:FMSP to start. There is almost no good excuse for removing cited sources. - SanAnMan (talk) 01:19, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Alright, I can admit that I made a mistake about secondary sources not being reliable for this context. While the news and journalism sources do not have insider information, they are reliable for letting people know about the contradictory information. So yes, I now believe those sources should stay. I apologize if I wasted too much of your time with this debate. Unnamed anon (talk) 02:46, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

SanAnMan, as of this writing, https://www.cc.com/shows/south-park lists the specials under Season 24, just like any episode from any other season. Do you think we can update the language in the lead now? Perhaps we could say: "Some sources, including Comedy Central's website, list the specials as part of Season 24, while "other reports suggest that the hour-long episodes are separate from the upcoming season."[7] Koyla Butternut (talk) 02:56, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kolya Butternut: That’s almost exactly what the lead now says, and it’s what the consensus opinion is at this point. It’s also been discussed on Talk: South ParQ Vaccination Special - SanAnMan (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion continued at Talk:South ParQ Vaccination Special#"Season 24" language compromise. Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:44, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

SanAnMan, my edit did not remove any citations which were used elsewhere. Do you see any other problems? Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:52, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Also mind WP:OVERCITE. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:01, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

SanAnMan, per BRD, let's discuss this. Kolya Butternut (talk) 11:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut Apologies, I am very busy IRL and I really don't see anything that needs to be discussed. If I was mistaken saying that citations were used elsewhere, then my bad. There's really nothing more to discuss IMO. - SanAnMan (talk) 13:42, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I take that to mean that you have no other opposition to my edit, which I will now reinstate. Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:07, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut No, there's still no legitimate reason for blatantly removing existing cites which further establish the argument being made in the statement. The edit that exists has kept your language change (which was the main thing you wanted) and still has all the cites kept. OVERCITE doesn't apply here as the cites given are all at the end of the paragraph so no reading issue is happening. - SanAnMan (talk) 19:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

SanAnMan, we seem to have reached an impasse, so I will ping the previous discussion participants for comment on the OVERCITE issue.

@WolfmanFP, Unnamed anon, CaffeinAddict, Nil Einne, Koavf, and Nightscream: I feel that the existing text violates WP:OVERCITE. There are seven citations at the end of the sentence, giving the impression that the argument that the specials are not part of Season 24 is stronger because there are more references. The Screenrant reference provides synthesis for us and is the only reference at the end of the sentence which is necessary. My previous edit used three of the most recent sources, which is all that is necessary. Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

WP:OVERCITE can be addressed by listing the sources in a bulleted list inside the ref tags, so it becomes one citation of several sources, a practice observed in a number of Wikipedia articles. Nightscream (talk) 00:09, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

I think all we need is the same sources as in South ParQ Vaccination Special. See the last sentence of the second paragraph of South ParQ Vaccination Special. Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:24, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Running time 47 minutes of a one-hour-long special

Is one-hour idiomatic or was it alleged to be 1 hour and ended up being 47 min long? (Right now, introduction and info box contradict one another.) -- Gohnarch^░ 16:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

The run-time length has been removed; it's never been mentioned in any other episode article. - SanAnMan (talk) 19:10, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Grapesoda22: I think that everyone knows that a half-hour show isn't actually 30 minutes of full programming, as neither is a one-hour show a full 60 minutes of programming. They are advertised as their run times on the air. Plus in this case, almost all of the cites given state the show is a "one-hour special" or words to that effect. Changing the article to say the episode is only 47 minutes long is completely ignoring all of the cites given (including the Comedy Central press release) which call it a one-hour episode. The 47-minute runtime is only for the episode as it airs on streaming services, which is not what actually aired on live television; on regular TV on the night it was aired, the show ran for an hour. - SanAnMan (talk) 17:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@SanAnMan: I understand that everyone knows its not a true hour and that saying its an hour is better marketing. But in reality the special is not truly an hour itself. If you purchase a digital copy or a DVD it doesn't have commercials at all. We list the run time of the series in general as 22 minuets, so we should be consistent in those regards. Grapesoda22 (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@Grapesoda22: I've added a footnote to the article that addresses the run time, and I think it is a good compromise. Let me know what you think. - SanAnMan (talk) 13:49, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Discussion continued at the List of Episodes talk page. Barry Wom (talk) 14:22, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Title card or screenshot?

Anyone able to add the title card or a screenshot to the infobox? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:44, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Added by ThunderPheonix2021 and subsequently removed by SanAnMan, with the latter arguing that it is not "official". I replaced the original source with South Park Studios' YouTube channel. QuestFour (talk) 04:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

No, you replaced the false image. The image isn't the "official logo" of the episode as the image claims, it isn't even used in the episode. I've removed it again. To be honest, a title card image isn't really needed here, it hasn't been used in any other South Park episode article. - SanAnMan (talk) 14:57, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I have added a clearly valid image for the article, but user SanAnMan objects to this. And the only reason for him to do it is that "the other episodes of South Park do not have images, therefore none should have them". But here I don't see a clear consensus on this. The only one who objects is him. Bradford (Talk)  17:59, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Actually, images have been used in other episode articles, including ones that I myself added to some. But then someone went around removing them, for technical or other reasons I don't precisely recall, which I think is arbitrary, since articles on films and TV shows throughout the project have them. Nightscream (talk) 04:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a very clear consensus for this to be happening. Bradford (Talk)  15:25, 18 March 2021 (UTC)