Talk:Training bra

Suggested add

Suggested add:
Training bras are also just that: trainers. Young girls learn how to put on a bra and start getting used to wearing something around their chest.
Something along those lines
--24.12.166.210 (talk) 00:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic

This seems pretty unencyclopedic. The section about societal considerations has a pretty strong POV with little to no sourcing. It needs a lot of improvement. 66.82.9.57 (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I just commented to say seriously, give me the history, function, and then a section on changes in societal viewpoints. The societal section shouldn't be the focus of an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:6:805:0:0:0:7A (talk) 05:34, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant Personal Observation

I think its good to train them to cover their breast and feel secure about have breast and not to be sexual to be more conservative with covering instead of showing their nipples thru thier clothes

Citation

I think the line "During the 1940s and 1950s, western media created a "mammary fixation" that shaped teen perceptions of breast size." needs a citation. -- it is too misleading, it is true but not causal. mammary fixation was not solely because of training bras. - frederika eilers 9 september 2012

Incorrect

A "bralette" is a bra-like shirt/top that is not underwear, a sports bra, a bra like a sports bra, or a sheer bra that gives no support. It is not a training bra. It's only used for clothing of grown women. The term seems to lack a concrete meaning, but training bras are definitely not among the meanings. --174.19.181.117 (talk) 02:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Articles like this one make it pretty clear that a bralette is nothing like a training bra. There needs to be a separate article on bralettes, or they need to be referenced in the brassiere article. Not my bailiwick, and I don't feel like doing the research necessary to create a whole new article, but someone with some expertise probably should.

*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 15:18, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with that. A bralette it is not a training bra (if such thing really exists...). At least nowadays, it has a more broad meaning as a specific bra style. I think it should have a separate article.--Señoritaleona (talk) 03:10, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Blacklisted Links Found on Training bra

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Topless vs topfree

Any support for an IP's attempt to change "topless" to "topfree" in the following? "But some girls hesitate to accept that some of their childhood freedoms, like going topless or engaging in certain kinds of boyish activities, may be ending." It's referenced, but I don't have access to it so I can't see which term the author used. The change seems to be a bit POV to me, and I believe the banned User:Fangusu has made the same change. Meters (talk) 02:19, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Yup, that's definitely a Fangusu edit [1] Meters (talk) 02:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Remove gender

WP:GNL | MOS:GNL

I'm not a girl, I'm 29 years old, and I'm starting to grow breasts (on purpose). Because of this, I need to wear a training bra. However, this article is worded in a way that this is completely exclusionary of my experience, and of that of millions of other transgender readers.

This article should be updated with language inclusive of us.

For example, this paragraph:

A training bra (also trainer bra, starter bra, first bra or bralette) is a lightweight brassiere designed for girls who have begun to develop breasts. Girls who are developing breasts are at Tanner stage I and II. It is intended to be worn during puberty when the girl's breasts are not yet large enough to fit a standard-sized bra. They do not provide actual support of any kind. They serve aesthetic purposes to fulfill cultural norms and local beauty standards.

Could be changed like this:

A training bra (also trainer bra, starter bra, or first bra) is a lightweight brassiere designed for people who have begun to develop breasts. Individuals who are developing breasts are at Tanner stage I and II. It is intended to be worn during puberty when the breasts are not yet large enough to fit a standard-sized bra. They do not provide actual support of any kind. They serve aesthetic purposes to fulfill cultural norms and local beauty standards.

This can easily avoid confusing and distracting usage of gender-neutral language. Coincidentally, it might also empower girls by using inclusive language (referring to them as people), but I'm neither a sociologist nor a girl, so I can't speak to that. All I can speak to here is my own experience.

This would also not give undue emphasis to tiny minorities. While most people who are at this stage of breast growth are younger girls, everyone who grows breasts can benefit from this article, and all people taking feminizing hormones share the experiences described in it. According to Wikipedia, the USA transgender population is comparable in size to its Hindi population and other such prominent minorities.

Thank you for your time and consideration. If there are no objections, I will happily take on the duty of performing these changes.

BenLeggiero (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I support these changes. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 16:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@BenLeggiero: But training bras are for children to wear as an extra layer under their regular clothing. 5-year-olds wear training bras! 6-year-olds wear training bras! I don’t feel comfortable with a 60-year-old woman who is 5’10” wearing a training bra! They should go in the adult section and buy an adult training bra! Victoria's Secret has adult bralettes. Children are already second class citizens. At least let them have their own clothing instead of being dictated by adults. I demand that training bras be kept for children only! Adults are just jealous of children because they are short and cute! If adults want training bras, they can go into an adult store like Victoria's Secret and buy their bralettes! Zoe1013 (talk) 05:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not you are "comfortable" with it isn't the point, and your comment here seems just a WP:POV that isn't relevant to the broader discussion of using gender-neutral language --ZimZalaBim ^talk 14:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@Zoe1013: Thank you for your feedback. It's very valuable to know that this change might cause concerns like these which you raised. I'd like to clarify a few things, though. This discussion is not about whether to remove training bras from children, nor is it about whether or not to force them upon adults and elders, nor is it about the height and cuteness of any person nor group of people. This discussion is also not about the location where an adult might acquire a bra of any sort, nor about which store section one might ever find them in. This discussion is about whether to update this page to have language which does not explicitly exclude people of different genders and ages from the topic. This article will continue to include children, no matter what. - BenLeggiero (talk) 07:42, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The only way that the wording "should be updated with language inclusive" of adult transgender people is if WP:SECONDARY sources discuss it in that manner. Which they don't. Wikipedia does not exist to conform to your personal preferences. Wikipedia follows the literature, which is entirely focused on girls growing up. Binksternet (talk) 19:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

bralette

Bralette should not redirect here as that is a different style and typically worn by adult women, as the citations in that article indicate. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 21:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I rather strongly agree (but I may not be qualified to comment here). I wish now I'd never made a slight grammar correction to bralette a few days ago – it seems to have triggered some dubious editing. The bralette article was in quite a good state. Now its contents have been squeezed into an excessively large lead section with the rest of the article seemingly directed towards teenage American girls of a few decades ago. Things are now a mess. If anything, a training bra is a type of bralette, not the other way round. Thincat (talk) 11:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Thincat: If you don’t like something about the article, you can help fix it. The kids bra is a bralette. I added a reference in the lead. The Playground Set Gets Its Own Bras I like the new lead section now. If I didn’t stumble onto the bralette article, I would have not considered merging bralette to training bra article. It’s a good thing I found the reference that kids also wear bralette because now bralettes can be merge into training bra! Its all the same. I like it that adults now wear the same as what kids wear. Kids always have to wear kids shoes or kids clothing. Now they can wear the same as adults with these bralettes. Zoe1013 (talk) 01:26, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I do not think bralette should be merged into training bra since the former is not necessarily targeted to those still developing breasts. While some people call training bras "bralettes", bralettes are also their own thing sold to mature individuals. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 01:54, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@ZimZalaBim: Bralettes are also sold to children too. 5-year-olds can wear bralettes even if they aren’t developing breasts. What makes bralettes for adults different than for kids? Zoe1013 (talk) 02:04, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Just because they are sold to children doesn't mean they are the exact equivalent of training bras. Note the various citations at bralette that focus on the adult market. These are distinct items of clothing. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 02:10, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@Zoe1013:, please stop adding content from the bralette article here. While yes, some people use the term "bralette" to describe a training bra, that doesn't mean that ALL bralettes are training bras. The content at bralette are about the bra sold to mature adults. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 03:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@ZimZalaBim: And the bralette is also sold to children who aren’t starting to develop breasts. So it really doesn’t belong in the training bra article. It should belong in the bralette article. Zoe1013 (talk) 04:09, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Um, so then why do you keep adding it here?? --ZimZalaBim ^talk 05:06, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

A 12-year-old girl most likely is starting to develop breasts. She can still wear a bralette and it would also be a training bra too. A 4 year old girl most likely is not starting to develop breasts so for her it’s not a training bra but a bralette. Perhaps training bra article should be merged with bralette article. Zoe1013 (talk) 05:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Nothing should be merged. There are two different types of bras that serve different purposes, despite the fact that bralettes might serve as a training bra. I don't understand why you seem to think they must somehow be merged/redirected. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 05:19, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

So you agree that a training bra is a type of bralette then. I was reverted by Laterthanyouthink. There was never a discussion about not adding bralette as an alternative term to training bra. Zoe1013 (talk) 10:45, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Photo for this article

What kind of photo would be appropriate for this article? Training bra is a type of bralette. It would be the same as the bralette for kids. Zoe1013 (talk) 07:56, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Bralette as an alternative term for training bra

Bralettes are also typically worn by kids from ages 4-14. Therefore a bralette is an alternative term for training bra. Zoe1013 (talk) 12:52, 30 August 2020 sources (UTC)

An article was created for bralette on 25 July 2020, apparently with the weight of the sources establishing that they are different things. It is therefore not an alternative term or synonym with a redirect to this article, so it doesn't belong in the first sentence in bold, as I tried to explain in a comment on your user page which you removed. Whether or not it deserves a mention somewhere else in the article because one source uses the term when it probably means training bra, or perhaps because some adults use the garment for a use which it is not intended by buying it for their child, is a different question. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 13:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Are you saying kids bras are not allowed to be called bralettes? There is a reference stating that kids ages 4-14 wear bralettes! All the kids stores call them bralettes. Zoe1013 (talk) 14:09, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

"All the kids stores call them bralettes" Not true. Like Laterthanyouthink said, just because one source happens to use that term doesn't necessarily mean it is an alternative name of equal weight as the more common terms. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 19:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Zara’s kids section and The Children's Place offer bralettes for kids. Zoe1013 (talk) 20:37, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

A training bra is a type of bralette. So you are essentially saying that a training bra is not a type of bralette, am I correct? Zoe1013 (talk) 20:48, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

A key point here is that the article you note doesn't call these training bras, and it doesn't suggest it is meant to serve a purpose similar to a training bra. It calls them "bra-like" garments and describes them more as undershirts. This does not meet any reasonable standard of saying a "bralette" is a common synonym for "training bra". --ZimZalaBim ^talk 21:02, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

How about this reference? It states training bra as bralettes. Zoe1013 (talk) 01:05, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I repeat what I wrote above, as well as on your talk page: "It is therefore not an alternative term or synonym with a redirect to this article, so it doesn't belong in the first sentence in bold, as I tried to explain in a comment on your user page which you removed." Mention of the terminology used in the ads may or may not be worth mentioning elsewhere in the article. But more seriously, you are engaging in disruptive editing. You have been warned. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:24, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I removed the bralette section since it does not belong in an article about training bra. Zoe1013 (talk) 01:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Image for this article

Would this be appropriate for a training bra? If you can offer suggestions on what is the typical training bra look like, that would be appreciated. Zoe1013 (talk) 21:23, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

It might, but we can't use copyrighted images. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 21:47, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I have one just like that one. Maybe I shouldn’t take a picture of it if it’s not the typical training bra. Zoe1013 (talk) 22:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

This one looks more like a training bra. I think I will use this one. I’ll take a picture of it. Zoe1013 (talk) 19:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Training bra for adults

There is no training bra for adults. It is for kids only. If adults were developing breasts, they would just wear a bralette or a male bra. I think it should be changed to kids only. Zoe1013 (talk) 10:50, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Not true. See the discussion above about removing the gendered language. Someone could develop breasts as an adult and need a training bra. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 14:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

How can adults wear training bras if there are no sizes for them? If they had sizes for them, the males wouldn’t be wearing a male bra. Zoe1013 (talk) 15:48, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Sizing is relative. Someone other than a young person could be developing breasts for the first time, and they indeed might wear a training bra. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 15:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

So are you saying someone 6 feet tall whose chest size is probably bigger than the typical 12 year old girl can fit into a training bra? I have never seen training bras for bigger people. All the training bras on the market is for smaller people. Zoe1013 (talk) 16:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

What I am saying is that people come in all shapes and sizes and we can't assume training bras are only for young girls. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 16:32, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Based on your logic, we shouldn't assume children's clothing is for kids. So if adults wanted to wear children's clothing, then the article should be changed to just clothing instead of children's clothing. Zoe1013 (talk) 16:41, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

While I do know adults who happen to wear children's clothing (sometimes it just fits better), that's really not the point here. We simply need to respect the fact that people other than young girls might wear a training bra. This really isn't a huge assertion that changes anything major in the article itself. I think it is time to move on. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 16:55, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, the manufacturers better be making bigger sizes in training bras for the transgendered women. Zoe1013 (talk) 22:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, indeed! That would be wonderful. In fact, some companies like Tomboy X specialize in making underwear for transgender adults! – Ben Leggiero (talk) 18:55, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

First, your link is a primary source which doesn't have any effect in defining the topic. Second, the word 'training' doesn't appear anywhere in your link. Adults don't need training bras. What you are going to need is a WP:SECONDARY source discussing how training bras are used by adults in transition, rather than just girls. Binksternet (talk) 19:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)