User talk:Worm That Turned/Archive 30

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Request for Modification

Dear Sir, we have communicated on and off line regarding my unblocking ([1]), and some months ago I requested an amendment. I'd like to respectfully request that the unblocking conditions be modified to allow editing of Marvel Comics articles. How would I proceed? Kind Regards Asgardian (talk) 10:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Asgardian, sorry for my late reply. This would need to go to the arbitration committee to discuss, most likely the ban appeals sub committee. Worm^TT(talk) 13:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Re mail call...

Hi, I got a msg but all it said was you'd dropped me a message! Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:55, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I generally say that to indicate that I've dropped a person an email... which in your case, I have. You may want to check it! Worm^TT(talk) 12:59, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Let me try again. All the *email* said was "Dropped you a line". Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Really? That's weird. My "copy of email" says exactly what I wanted it to say. I've tried again... Worm^TT(talk) 13:42, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah! perfido

Ah! perfido is not a personal attack but an article written with thanks for improving its composer ;) - As I sequel to Stargazy pie, I translated Dreadstar, - both on the Main page today, when we celebrate 50 years of a church and its music, which included in 2015 a joyous piece premiered in Liverpool, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

AWB credentials

Hello, Worm. You approved my request for access to the AutoWikiBrowser, but when I went to log in, it said I didn't have access. Is there a waiting period after approval for my name to make its way onto the approved list? Thanks. fds^Talk 00:11, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Fdssdf. I do apologise, you were unlucky enough to get an idiot to action your request... I put in Fsddsf, not Fdssdf. I've rectified the mistake, it should be working now. Sorry! Worm^TT(talk) 07:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

We all, from time to time, are beset with momentary lapses of the mind. Thanks for the speedy turnaround in this matter. fds^Talk 19:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Co-op Pilot Results & Mentoring

Hey there! The Co-op has been on a hiatus for a bit, but we are planning on opening up shop again soon. When you're able, please read over and respond to this update on our talk page. We have favorable results from our final report regarding the pilot, and we are interested in seeing who is available to mentor when we reopen our space and begin to send out invites again. Thanks, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:16, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

This message was sent by I JethroBT (talk · contribs) via Mass Message. (Opt-out instructions)

BlueSalix

Unfortunately user:BlueSalix is creating drama again, here, you may wish to check in on him again to nip that in the bud. And no, my editing an article at AfD six months after my previous encounter with him is not some obscure attempt at "revenge". Artw (talk) 14:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

What drama? It was a simple concern I raised to an admin over protection of the encyclopedia since you had made the choice to edit over things being discussed in an active RfC. You responded to my opening of a RfC to resolve our disagreement by choosing to describe it using words such as a "meltdown" [2] which did not help to advance a WP:CIVIL dialog and edit discussion. I know we've had disagreements over Joseph P. Farrell, Boyd Bushman and some of the other WP:FRINGE articles you've been interested in which I've AfD'ed; again, all I can tell you is I didn't delete them; I nominated them for deletion. The community deleted them. Please keep that in mind. I don't think you'll find constantly WP:OTHERPARENTing me will get those articles restored.

Also, WtT's only past "checking in on me" has been at your, and other fringe topics editors, instigation and has not really gone anywhere (if you need a reminder - [[3]] or the various ANIs you and your friends routinely file against me that end-up DOA: [[4]], [[5]]). As per Randykitty's advice to me then, I'm going to "let others do the goading and just don't react to it." In that spirit, if you have anything further to address to me you'll need to post it to my Talk page, as I won't keep checking these pings. BlueSalix (talk) 16:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

For clarity the "drama" in this case would be the false claim of stalking, the false claim of vandalism, the resumption of attenpts to misrepresent my editing history to present me as some kind of fringe extremist and general incivility. Artw (talk) 17:06, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

So basically all the same stuff you've been hitting me with on your ANIs and previous complaints then? As a courtesy, I'm not going to ask you for a diff where I used the word "stalk" and/or "stalking." Just do me a favor in return - if you're going to push this as far as your previous efforts, can you just file another ANI against me? It's easiest to keep track of your various complaints against me that way. (And yes, I know and have acknowledged UFO editors don't want to be portrayed as "extremists." At [I think?] your request I have not done so since our previous conversation and have only used the term "fringe theories editors" which is simply the name of our noticeboard and should be viewed as a value-neutral term.) Thank you, ArtW. BlueSalix (talk) 17:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

This is why I asked Worm specifically to look into your current behavior. [6] I believe they have everything they need to do so and if they need anything else they can ask me. I will not debate you further here. WTT, apologies for crufting up your talk page. Artw (talk) 17:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I know what you're asking. I know you believe it's okay to overwrite a RfC and, me alerting an admin about it constitutes my "stalking" you. I'd tell you, once again, no one - least of all me - is out to "get" you but that hasn't helped yet. You have brought up the same issues in your various and prolific previous complaints about me and ANIs [[7]], [[8]], [[9]], etc., ever since our first interaction with my AfD on Joseph P. Farrell so there's really no ambiguity about what you're requesting at this point. Again - ANI is the place to do this but I know you haven't any luck there; WP:OTHERPARENTing is rarely an advisable recourse, but whatever. OUt of courtesy to WtT I'm not going to comment here anymore and I counsel you to follow my lead in that respect. BlueSalix (talk) 18:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Artw, BlueSalix - can't you find something a little better to do with your time? I'd recommend a voluntary interaction ban, but I doubt either of you would agree to it. If I see this at ANI, I won't be suggesting a voluntary one, I'll be suggesting an enforced one. I will make some specific comments though

• Drop the word "stalk", what happens on Wikipedia is not close to stalking and is insulting to anyone who's been though such an ordeal.
• Drop the word "vandalism", unless that's what you mean. Vandalism is the intentional harming of Wikipedia. You need to be absolutely sure of intent - if you're not, you should be assuming good faith on the intent.
• BlueSalix, looking over Drmies thread, I see you getting hung up on little details again, which looks like you trying to weasel out of something. Rather than arguing over what you meant, why didn't you just point out evidence of where such statements had been made?
• Artw, you have history with this editor, you should be making every effort to not give the impression that that history is colouring your actions. If that means going overboard with explanations of why you are doing things, so be it.

Anything else, take it elsewhere - I'm not nearly as active as I once was and it's junk like this that caused it. Worm^TT(talk) 09:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. If the attacks continue I'll avoid bothering you and go straight to ANI instead. I would point out that despite efforts to present a case to the contrary I have basically zero interactions with this user already outside of editing pages at AfD, and I don't feel that I should have to make special efforts to avoid AfDs and articles at AfD just in case a user takes a swing at me. Probably that would just mean giving up Wikipeida, since that's the bulk of my edits. I'm also super disappointed that by throwing up a smokescreen of words he seems to be able to present this as a "both sides" thing - I can absolutely assure you that it is not, I simply do not like being randomly attacked. Artw (talk) 13:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, really. Haven't you filed enough ANIs against me? BlueSalix (talk) 02:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Requesting an RfA nomination

Worm, I read you are willing to be asked for a nomination. So, I would like to do that with you. Am I in the right spot to contact you for that? The self nominating process doesn't seem clearly obvious enough. --Emborion 21:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC) nikpapag

Hi Emborion. Can I ask why you'd want to become an administrator? You've got a fair way to go before the community would accept you at the moment, I'm afraid - but I don't see that you really need to, you can do almost everything that administrators can do already. If you're serious about becoming an admin, have a look at my Magic Formula, which might give you some pointers. A couple of additional things you might want to look at - that you sign with a username that doesn't match you account, and that you've only made about 10 edits outside article space in the last 2 years. Worm^TT(talk) 07:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, it looks like I've got a fair way to go? Ok Worm. Thank you for the 3 tips.--Emborion 20:03, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Your signature

Hello there! I'm working on a project trying to bring most of the coding on Wikipedia up to the most current standards (HTML5), and I noticed that your signature is using <font>...</font> tags which were deprecated in HTML 4.0 Transitional, marked as invalid in 4.0 Strict, and are not part of HTML5 at all. I'd love to help you update your signature to use newer code, and if you're interested, I suggest replacing:

[[User:Worm That Turned|<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;'>'''''Worm'''''</span>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User Talk:Worm That Turned|<span style="color:#060;">talk</span>]])

with:

[[User:Worm That Turned|<span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;'>'''''Worm'''''</span>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<span style="color:#060;">talk</span>]])

which will result in a 215 character long signature with an appearance of: Worm^TT(talk) compared to your existing 208 character long signature of: Worm^TT(talk) — Either way. Happy editing!(t) Josve05a (c) 23:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Or you could use:

[[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<span style="color:#060;">talk</span>]])

which would produce: Worm^TT(talk) - using a mere 203 characters. This works because <b>...</b> is just as valid in HTML5 as <span>...</span>. --RexxS (talk) 17:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Or even:

[[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]])

Which is what I've gone for. Thanks both for the advice. Worm^TT(talk) 08:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Admin review

Hi,

I have been gradually increasing my areas I have dealings with on Wikipedia and am thinking of running for adminship. I have noted that you are willing to give advice on areas that may require improvement for a candidate before they run and if you feel they are suitable nominate them for adminship. I would appreciate if you would consider tkaing some time to evaluate my work and let me know of any pointers you can provide, for claritys sake I did request this from another user a while back but due to unforseen cirucmstances they were unable to assist. Amortias (T)(C) 09:23, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Commented on your talk page, since there's a thread there Worm^TT(talk) 08:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

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Workshopping bureaucrat activity requirements

(Message to all bureaucrats)

There is an ongoing discussion about implementing some kind of standards for administrative and bureaucrat activity levels; and activity requirements for bureaucrats have been explored several times in the past. I've prepared a draft addition to Wikipedia:Bureaucrats that would require at least one bureaucratic action every five years to retain the bureaucrat permission.

In the past, I've been hesitant of such proposals but I believe that if the bureaucrat group as a whole is seen to be actively engaged, the community may be more willing to grant additional tasks to the position.

Please let me know your thoughts. I'm not sure if this actually applies to any of us, but if you have not acted as a bureaucrat in over five years, you might consider requesting removal of the permission or otherwise signalling that you intend to return to bureaucrat activity. –xeno^talk 14:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Infobox RfC

Hi Dave. I noticed that you've closed infobox RfCs in the past and were involved as an arbitrator in an infobox case. Would you be willing to close this RfC? I'm hesitant to do so myself as I was the requester and expressed my opinion. Many thanks. --Albany NY (talk) 03:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but I doubt you're going to like it. Worm^TT(talk) 07:45, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

(watching) Indeed I don't like it, but like and dislike should not be the question, right? What I don't like is the label "There have been some bad faith arguments" which may mean me, because "bad faith" is about what I have most problems to take. (I don't mind "infobox criminal", actually find it quite funny.) - I did not discuss below the RfC because I came late to the discussion. - Now IF deference to the wishes of those "putting a lot of effort into an article" is so important: please restore the infoboxes where my wish was ignored by the power of arbcom, starting with BWV 35, - do so please not for "aesthetics" but to inform our readers. Btw, Nikkimaria started to revert such reverts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:06, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

No Gerda, I was referring to the sockpuppetry and one individual who was clearly arguing in bad faith. You'll notice that the "wishes of those putting a lot of effort into the article" were the last point I made - because it was the final factor, one that only gets taken into account if there is absolutely no consensus. As it happens, a no-consensus decision already leaned the same way. I'm not going to go back over every case you think goes against the close I just made - I made it based on the discussions at the article. Worm^TT(talk) 08:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the "no" which I assume was not for restoring the infobox on BWV 35, right? - "Bad faith" was the first argument you made, and it hit me. I assume in good faith now that you think that I made my argument to include an infobox to inform our readers about place and time of the subject (actually any subject) in good faith. - It is not clear from the close. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

ps: the infobox which was reverted is here, - technically I could re-insert it myself now - not restricted not to revert any more - but still avoid doing so which I hope you will understand, also that I am reluctant to go to the article talk because it shows my shameful state of sin restriction to a public ;) - I looked at my list again and found that the cantata is the very last of the cases where an infobox had been reverted because I had not literally "created" but only put "a lot of effort into an article", - I would like to close that chapter. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dave, thanks for taking the time to close the RfC at Talk:James Joyce, but I believe you've misjudged the strength of the arguments, so I'm going to challenge your close. There's no documented mechanism for reviewing RfC closes per WP:Requests for comment #Ending RfCs (as there is for reviewing closes of AfDs), so I thought I'd raise the issue here with you first.

My principal problem with your summary is that by taking into account earlier debates (from 2010) outside the RfC itself, you fail to acknowledge that consensus can change and give undue weight to a five-year-old straw poll, which was a simple vote with (at most) references to a discredited user essay. Further, I simply cannot agree with your assertion that the majority of discussion relevant to the RfC question occurred in the section below the RfD. It didn't. I also believe you are mistaken in dismissing generic arguments both for and against inclusion. ArbCom cannot create policy, and there is no policy that dictates discounting an argument simply because it can be generalised to other articles - in fact, that makes the argument stronger.

Within the RfC, there were at least eight editors arguing for inclusion and only one arguing against. If you want to consider the broader discussions from last month that triggered the RfC (Talk:James Joyce #Infobox and Talk:James Joyce #Infobox reconsideration, you'll find that Albany NY, Pigsonthewing, RexxS, Choor monster, Littleolive oil, Gerda Arendt, Davey2010, Comatmebro and Ryecatcher773 all supplied arguments in favour of inclusion, while Modernist, Paul August, SandyGeorgia, Malik Shabazz argued against inclusion, or at least in favour of retaining the consensus from five years ago.

I'd very much like you to review your closure in the light of the above. If the sheer number of editors who commented favourably on the inclusion of an infobox isn't decisive, then I still believe that if you summarise all of the arguments pro and con, then the weight of argument still falls squarely on the pro-infobox side of the RfC. If you're unable to revise your closure, the perhaps you can suggest a suitable venue to take the dispute? Either WP:AN (as it hosts WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure) or WP:DRN (as this is primarily concerned with content) come to mind, but I'm happy enough to be guided by you per Requests for closure. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 11:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Morning RexxS. I've had another look over the debate and I stand by my decision. You are welcome to take it to any forum to discuss further, but I'd recommend the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard - as the close states there is "No consensus", the dispute is still ongoing. Unless, of course, you do not accept that I am an uninvolved editor? In that case, I would suggest that you take the matter to AN. Regarding the specific points;

• Absolutely consensus can change, but that doesn't mean that previous discussions should be discounted. There have been a number of discussions throughout Archive 2, most notably the straw poll and this one which do hold bearing on the current discussions. There is a difference between understanding consensus can change and ignoring the past - a previous strong consensus, spanning years, should only be overturned by a definite consensus for change. That is why I pointed to past discussions.
• I do believe that both sections "RfC" and "Infobox reconsideration" should be read in conjunction, as the full discussions over the past 2 months. I note in particular that the earlier discussion included both a sockpuppet and uncivil advocacy, apparently driving away those on the other side of the argument, just before the "RfC" was opened.
• Weight of editors is not a major factor in an RfC, as it is not a vote (I won't bother linking you to the policy, you know it). Far more important is weight of arguments. Of course the standard arguments are relevant, but the standard arguments counterbalance each other, if they did not we would be leaning towards a guideline that infoboxes should or shouldn't be included. Instead, as there is no guideline, it is more important to discuss an infobox's merits to a specific article. In this case, the debated utility of the infobox stands against the debated aesthetics and flow of the article. Noting, too, that an infobox removal was discussed lightly at the time of Featured Article Review.

So, in summary, I stand by my decision that there is no consensus to add the infobox based on weight of argument. I wish you luck in which ever route you choose to progress this matter, let me know if I need to take part - I have no opinion on the matter, so will only be discussing my close rather than any pros or cons of the actual infobox. Worm^TT(talk) 08:44, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Today is Bloomsday, we should read, not debate. I was called to comment, and feel that whatever I said makes no difference because there is this heavy weight of a past of which I was no part. I arrived at the infoboxes scene in 2012, was against them then as redundant, learned within half a year that they serve some and don't harm the others. I keep dreaming, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:52, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Today we are a day wiser, - I still don't like the unspecified "bad faith" at the beginning of your close, - could you reword that? - Seemingly unrelated: I made a comment (per email) regarding this edit (saying that found it amusing) which caused me to be excluded from a talk page. Did you know who created that article - which was what amused me most? Speaking of the wishes of those who put much effort in an article. I did for another work by Beethoven, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Gerda, I chose my wording carefully and am going to stick to it. Anyone reading the discussion will see very quickly who I am referring to, I've explained further below why the "bad faith" comments were so problematic. Worm^TT(talk) 12:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

"Anybody" did not include me, - I felt meant and understood only after explanation that it was not. - I dislike that - at least in my limited understanding of English - it puts those being for infoboxes in the "bad faith" corner, but accept that you chose your wording carefully which I had no doubt about. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Evening Dave, I've just got back from your neck of the woods - I did a training gig at Liverpool Uni today, so am just catching up. Thanks for being so forthright and for elaborating on your thought processes in reaching your conclusion. Of course I accept you as uninvolved - I would have said so otherwise! - so I'll start to prepare something for DRN. It seems relatively lightweight and non-adversarial. Of course I'd like you to take part because it will be your weighing of the arguments that I'll have to dispute and it wouldn't be fair for others to only hear my side of the argument. I'm not going to rush and I'll consult some trusted colleagues to make sure that I'm not badly mistaken in my reading of the RfC+debate before doing anything more. Hope all's well with you and the family. Best wishes --RexxS (talk) 22:58, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Keep me in the loop, I'll see what I can do. Completely forgot about the Liverpool Uni training, how did it go? Worm^TT(talk) 12:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You say, it is more important to discuss an infobox's merits to a specific article. In this case, the debated utility of the infobox stands against the debated aesthetics and flow of the article. But that is a recurrent theme; indeed, it had been debated at Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven#Infobox, another infobox RfC that you closed as "... there is consensus that there should be an infobox". I'd be interested to hear what factors have made the inclusion of the infobox in Beethoven's article appropriate, but not here. Alakzi (talk) 15:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Alakzi. There were a few key differences -

• The aesthetics of the Beethoven infobox were specifically addressed.
• In the Beethoven discussion, all the opposing arguments were addressed in depth.
• The Joyce article had previous in depth discussions on the matter of the Infobox, including at Featured Article Review. The fact that the article has been through the featured article process, does mean that it has a stable state, approved by a significant portion of the community and a solid consensus should be shown to overturn that.
• The level of discourse on the Joyce article, especially from one individual, had the effect of driving off other editors, making consensus more difficult to achieve.

Finally, and most importantly, I read the arguments at both Beethoven and Joyce and for one I saw a solid consensus from the arguments and on the other, I didn't see that one had been reached. Worm^TT(talk) 07:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. It is illogical that generic aspects of infoboxes should be examined on a per article basis. The person infoboxes sport a standard look; if their aesthetics and other aspects had been addressed at another location at greater depth, it is intellectually moral that the consensus should carry to future debates. (It may - of course - be overturned via rational discourse.) The infobox was discussed cursorily at the 2006 FAR, a time when infoboxes were in their infancy. Consider, why did you choose to take the FAR into consideration, but not a more recent and more thorough RfC? We need to carry the infobox debate forward, and the way to do that is by discounting prescriptivism and prejudice - which would be perfectly in line with the purpose of building an encyclopaedia. Alakzi (talk) 23:16, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

All articles do not look alike, article length, amount of images, paragraph length, amount of lists, format of lists and many other factors make each article different. The idea is that there is consensus should be found at the specific article and the aesthetics of each are unique and relevant to the discussion. Which RfC are you suggesting I didn't take into consideration? Worm^TT(talk) 08:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Will you please reply to this request? Suggestion: "No, dear reader, the aesthetic aspects of this "beautifully crafted article" are more important than supplying readers with information at a predictable spot. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Now where have I heard that before? Cassianto^Talk 22:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Odd, I don't see anybody debating the visual style of headings on a per article basis. Alakzi (talk) 23:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Useight

Hi Dave, would you mind looking into adding Useight to the process at WP:INACTIVE. Mkdw^talk 22:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

He's still about - making log actions and editing sporadically at Useight's Public Sock (You can check his contributions). Worm^TT(talk) 08:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm around. In some capacity, at least. Useight's Public Sock (talk) 15:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

"unbearably ridiculous and detestable"

Especially for you one of the better DYK ... that Prince Nikolaus Esterházy, who commissioned Beethoven's Mass in C major for his wife's name day, found it "unbearably ridiculous and detestable"? The discussion on the talk is one of three on my parole. Today I found a new word on my talk, "ArbCommed", made me smile, but I will not use it. We - the team on the Beethoven mass - are working on merging The Creation (Haydn) (partly done) and The Creation structure. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Bureaucrat discussion notification

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Cyberpower678/Bureaucrat discussion

I would welcome input from other bureaucrats in relation to the outcome of this RfA.
Many thanks, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) for WJBscribe (talk) 11:10, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Is a bureaucrat's barc worse than his bite?

You commented on the tp of this project two years ago. The idea has not been pursued since - yet. Now that you have been both an arb and a 'crat since then, your opinion may have changed. I would welcome your up-to-date thoughts there. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:42, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Kudpung. Apologies that I haven't got back to you sooner on this. You may have noticed that I'm currently thinking along similar lines. I do think there needs to be an alternative route for desysops. I am not sure, however, that BARC is the right way to do it. There's currently a bit of discussion around the level of trust that 'crats are given and what's the point to them, as you know renaming has been removed and there's discussions regarding the bot flag too. I'm really not too happy with the idea of more committees either. That said, I don't have a better idea as yet and would be very interested in seeing how the community reacts to it. On a personal level, the proposal would have my support. Worm^TT(talk) 13:47, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there are one or two discussions going on in various places about the 'crats' future and also about desysoping methods. Unless somthing is done to make the crats' job more appealing and getting some more to run for office, they will all be mostly fossilised in a couple of years and it will allbe down to you and 28. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:54, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Ha! Of there 30 odd crats, there are about half a dozen active ones and I wouldn't really put me or 28 amongst their numbers. I can't say I'm keen on making desysops a carrot to encourage crats to run, but then the community standards for crats are so stupidly high, it's probably not a terrible thing. I've got to say, the iron's relatively hot at the moment with respect to this sort of proposal (given current arbcom cases and crat discussions), now would be a good time to put an RfC like this live. Don't forget the community wants something. The proof of concept confirmed that. Worm^TT(talk) 14:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Stupidly high? I dunno man, if they let me be one... I've seen the discussion of the role of 'crats in a couple places, and a thing I wonder about is this. It's quite true that 'crats don't have much to do--it's why I quit--but everyone seems to assume that that means we need to give them more stuff to do. Is there something so wrong about just letting 'crats wither away entirely? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Nothing at all. That's sort of what I expected to happen. It shouldn't be an argument for BARC above, but at the same time, it's not an argument against BARC. Worm^TT(talk) 07:05, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

We need the 'crats, but we're soon going to have to justify their existence.

You probably noticed that I deliberately (with enormous difficulty) stayed away from that 'the community wants something' discussion, however important it was. I had been making a lot of noise about RfA and adminship for a long time so I wanted to see just what would happen if I kept my trap shut for once in a while. It was a good discussion though, and most of the RfA trolls left it alone. Nevertheless, the consesus is what I expected it to be and would have hoped for.

The community giveth and taketh away in more ways than one though and while they ovewhelmingly supported the proposal they stronly opposed all the suggestions for implementing it. They don't want a select committee, they don't want a new group of super users, they don't want Arbcom to continue to do it, they want community desysopping but they clearly don't want a kangaroo court populated by the pitchfork-wielding peanut gallery à la ANI (which is really just kettles and pots yelling at each other like the dead common characters across the cobbled streets of Corrie). In short, they want their cake, to eat it, and puke it up again for another day.

I'm going to take another look at BARC because I think it's probably the nearest compromise, but even during what started off as a contructive discussion with Xeno recently, concerns were raised by others which overflowed onto three very recent threads at WT:RfA. If influential editors would just get their facts right instead of blindly repeating some conjecture, we might already be getting more candidates of the right calibre without all the tralala of looking for desysoping solutionds first. 'Nuff said now - sorry for being so long winded ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:06, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I thought BARC stood for Bay Area Rescue Corps, a troupe of trained golden retrievers that rescue swimmers in San Fransisco? But maybe that's just an urban legend. As far as I know, goldens don't even bark much. Bishonen | talk 07:42, 20 July 2015 (UTC).

Well, Bishonen, if the Bureaucrats don't start finding some reasons to BARC a bit more often, they will find that they only exist as a legend. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:38, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

That block

Are you aware that instead of reducing that block you have inadvertently extended it? --Epipelagic (talk) 07:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

No? Bugger. Excuse me. Worm^TT(talk) 07:34, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm just going to hang my head in shame. I swear I checked it 3 times. Worm^TT(talk) 07:41, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Stop spooking yourself... it was just a fumble :) --Epipelagic (talk) 07:45, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Good block by Keilana. I'm absolutely numbed and disgusted at the treatment she received for it. Shame I live in the completely opposite time zone. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:51, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

I think this trout is in order for the repeated failed attempts at setting the block length to 72 hours. Don't take it too seriously though. I cooked it for you and am serving it with

Crunch, crunch!

Here are some chips to go with your fish!

:D I ran out of beer though. Sorry. Cheers.—^cyberpower_{Chat:Limited Access} 11:15, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I think that's the least I deserve, thanks for applying it so gently! Worm^TT(talk) 13:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

LOL. You added 72 hours onto the intial block. Noticing your mistake you added 72 hours onto 72 hours resulting 2*72=144 hour block. Your final adjustment set it to 72 hours. At least 72 hours is in all three block times. :p

fmt/twilight sleepe

Hi WTT - fix that formatting error unless someone beats you to it pelase, I'm a bitamazed I had thehandeye coordination left to get here. SOrry about that. TEaches me to want to getinthe last thoughtIcurrently hae mmediately. Best, a very twilight sleepy,Kevin Gorman (talk)

AE blocks

Looks as if there may be an ominous trend developing here, specially concerning blocks of Corbett. First Sandstein, then GorillaWarfare, then Keilana. It's going to arrive at the point where no one is going to risk blocking him irrespective of how purely correct and procedural the block is. Perhaps Risker or Bishonen or MelanieN should do the next ones - there will be more... --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:36, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

What a magic place Wikipedia might become if admins focused more on facilitating content building and content builders and less on pursuing self-aggrandisement and relentless vendettas against content builders. --Epipelagic (talk) 05:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Epipelagic, you would be surprised at the number of us so-called "content builders" who would prefer to work in an atmosphere without the aggression, name-calling, and generally boorish behaviour that you defend. Claiming a special right for "content builders" to indulge in it is the worst kind of self-aggrandisement. I'm now returning my head to well below the parapet. Voceditenore (talk) 06:37, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not defending aggression and boorish behaviour Voceditenore. If you looked at the history and wider issues you could not come to a conclusion anything like that. --Epipelagic (talk) 06:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I am fully aware of both the history and the wider issues. Voceditenore (talk) 06:56, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Then don't attribute a position to me that I don't hold. --Epipelagic (talk) 06:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

If anyone thought that Arbcom imposing sanctions would somehow make all the tensions around Eric Corbett go away they are fooling themselves. The whole Eric Corbett thing is based in personalities, decisions on what can be forgiven and swept under the carpet and what can't. Wikipedia's editor base doesn't split easily into "content creators" and "whatever you want to call the other group". What I do see is those who see "black and white" and those who see "shades of grey". One is largely populated by younger, idealistic individuals, many of whom are attracted to the protection of Wikipedia. The other is largely populated by older, more tolerant individuals, many of whom are experts in fields. Civility issues are where these two groups really collide, and Eric is the focal point for all the disagreement - but it does go a lot deeper. All that is needed is a bit of care when dealing with the cases - I've managed to help tidy up both of the last two incidents, and if they weren't done in a gung-ho manner, perhaps there wouldn't be an issue in the first place. Worm^TT(talk) 11:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I tend to agree with your approach, Worm, given the situation. Having said that, there are many of us who are older, experts in our field, and don't see things in terms of "black and white" but who nevertheless dislike aggression and name-calling from whatever source. It's utterly puerile, and not the mark of mature individuals whatever their age. Many of us remain largely silent on the subject, just getting on with our work, avoiding individuals who act like boors, and doing our best to ignore the unproductive posturing that surrounds them on both sides of the issue. I guess that scenario qualifies as "tolerant", but in a rather negative way. Voceditenore (talk) 12:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

• Worm, I think you nailed it. I've routinely voted for admins that I see will not abuse the position nor misuse the tools, and I expect admins to exercise care even when enforcing an arbitration decision. I also expect them to be receptive to discussion about any action they take. If they decide to ignore questions about their actions then they shouldn't be admins.--MONGO 12:22, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

• I expect admins not to contribute here when they know damn well that their capability is impaired due to medication. In Kevin's case, this is a prolonged situation and one that he has acknowledged frequently. I am aware of the nature of his health issues and I do sympathise but he (and anyone else in a similar situation) should certainly take a break at the point when even he recognises that the unintended consequences can be bizarre. If Kevin should act under the influence yet again, I'd be tempted to take it to ArbCom and request a temporary desysop. It is in part due to issues of medication that I've been editing so little of late, although in recent days I'm afraid it is primarily because I'm absolutely fed up of what is going on. - Sitush (talk) 07:49, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Community desysoping RfC

Hi. You are invited to comment at RfC for BARC - a community desysoping process. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:36, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Kudpung. I've supported as joint proposer. I invite all talk page stalkers to have a look. Worm^TT(talk) 06:41, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Admin nomination

Hi, WTT! Over here you said you'd be happy to check if I could get a nomination for the bit. If you're not too busy, would it be possible for you to check if you could nominate me? Thank you. APerson (talk!) 15:42, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi APerson. I've not forgotten you! Unfortunately, I'm never very active at weekends, check my edit count ;) I'll try and get to looking over your contributions today. Worm^TT(talk) 06:21, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I didn't know that, sorry. Thanks again! APerson (talk!) 07:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Really sorry about the delay, I'm rather snowed under. I'll get to this as soon as I can. Worm^TT(talk) 14:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

No problem. It's not like we have a deadline or anything, after all. APerson (talk!) 11:06, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

• You'll be pleased to know that I was actually looking at this when you just posted! Here's my thoughts:

  First and foremost, you're doing a great job on Wikipedia and are a credit to the team. It's great to have helpful people at the teahouse, and technically minded people working on scripts and bots. Based on my magic formula, you've definitely got a specialism, which will stand you in good stead. But also based on that same magic formula, there are a few areas where you may want to brush up

  Content creation. Like it or not, there is an expectation of content creation in new administrators and the only way to avoid it is to be an exceptional (not just a good) candidate. Look, for example at my recent nomination, Liz, who does so much good work and in admin areas and yet she is still subject to opposes due to lack of content creation.

  At the moment, I think your lack of peer reviewed "content creation" would significantly hamper any attempt at an RfA. I'd recommend have a go at creating a couple of good articles. Find a subject that you're interested in and put the effort in - it will significantly improve your chances at passing.

  Alternatively, keep working at the administrative areas, you're doing a great job at AfC and AfD and those will stand you in good stead. That said, I think more experience in deletions would only be a good thing. You've commented in about 130 AfDs, and nominated a handful of CSDs, try spending a little time at new page patrol, dip your hand in to deletions.

  Finally, make sure you're a noticed part of the community - participate in discussions, especially the ones listed at WP:CENT. Put your thoughts forward, and collaborate to make the best solution.

• As I said, you're doing a great job generally. If you ran for administrator now, you'd stand a fair chance of getting it, depending on who shows up. At the same time, putting a little work in for a few months and you can really improve your chances. Worm^TT(talk) 11:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the feedback! Since you evaluated my overall chance as fair, I'm reasonably certain that the community will look at my technical contributions as well as my content ones and decide I'm a WP:NETPOSITIVE. I had been following Liz's RfA pretty closely even before you brought it up, and it doesn't look like her low number of articles created is a big issue. Would it be possible to move along with the nomination anyway? APerson (talk!) 21:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi APerson, I'm afraid I'm not willing to put a nomination in at the moment, I'd like to see you work on the areas I've suggested improvements on before I do. If do you wish to push forward, I'd recommend a self-nomination. Worm^TT(talk) 09:07, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Admin Nomination

Can you nominate me for adminship?

Ejaz92 (talk) 08:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Ejaz92. I'm afraid you wouldn't pass a "request for adminship" at the moment. Adminship on Wikipedia is given to community members who have shown themselves to be very knowledgeable of policy and trustworthy over a significant period of time. As such, many people expect to see thousands of edits over a decent time period (a year or two) before they'd even consider someone for adminship. But don't worry, Wiki-software is very open, there's almost nothing you can't do already as a normal community member - you can edit almost every page, upload files, nominate anything for deletion - actually pressing the final button doesn't really matter that much. Just enjoy your time here, and if in a couple of years you're still interested in being an admin, come back and ask me then. Worm^TT(talk) 09:01, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Media and drama

More dramah than media in the discussions (about, you guess right) on Rod Steiger, a Media and drama good article. I stay out. The word respect has been mentioned, probably without blushing. - As so often, I would like to know who pays respect to the interests of the readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Vanished user continuing to edit

Hello. Please see this thread on WP:ANI. A user with a long history of edit-warring and unsourced edits who you granted courtesy vanishing is continuing to edit in the same areas with the now renamed account, which I believe is against the spirit of WP:Courtesy vanishing. Thomas.W ^talk 11:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Raise it at Wp:BN if there is a rush, or I'll deal with it personally in the morning. Worm^TT(talk) 15:56, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up, Thomas.W, I have blocked the user and left a message setting out their options. WJBscribe (talk) 16:05, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting that WJBscribe, I wasn't in a position to. Worm^TT(talk) 08:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Pedantic point

Strictly speaking, this is still the unsuccessful RfA with the most support comments, and this the withdrawn RfA with the most support comments. WJBscribe (talk) 08:54, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Will update my comment, I didn't go back beyond 2009, because I assumed it was much smaller turnouts. Worm^TT(talk) 09:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Bureaucrat discussion notification (Liz)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Liz/Bureaucrat discussion

I would welcome input from other bureaucrats in relation to the outcome of this RfA.
Many thanks, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) for WJBscribe (talk) 12:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

WJBscribe, Not this bureaucrat ;) Worm^TT(talk) 12:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

RfA

Hi, I share the concerns recently stated by you at the RfA. However, I see it in reverse also, ie: the level of support is so high as to be peculiar. There are some in that mix who have practically come out of semi-retirement. The entire thing has been a mess and I do feel sorry that Liz has had to endure what must surely be one of the most divisive RfAs of recent times.

I also never thought I'd see the day when I disagreed with so many people whom I respect, which includes you and your fellow nominators. Saying this here because I don't want to clutter the main RfA page still more. No need for a reply. - Sitush (talk) 09:03, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I think it's because it's a named woman who is running. Look for example at WP:Requests for adminship/SarahStierch or Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Anna Frodesiak. I don't have any problem with many of the opposers, yourself included, they have the right to their opinion and in general it's been well expressed without being insulting. I just think this is a great disappointment. Worm^TT(talk) 09:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Three years ago today, remember, I found you precious, and still do. Feel free to help yourself to one of the userboxes ;) - I mused on a different talk about 80% percent of support wanted to do the cleaning job, while sitting arbs - much more influential - were elected with a much lower ratio. I disagreed with Liz several times, but that is no reason for me not to trust her to perform functions which will be well watched (and if necessary corrected) by the community. - Opabinia regalis - a woman - was successful. - Did you know that my latest label is "doctrinaire insistence" - whatever that may mean, - assuming good faith it's derived from docere = teach ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:37, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Three years ago I was an asset to the encyclopedia - today, I barely do anything, I very much doubt I still deserve such an accolade. I honestly have no idea who I've agreed with or disagreed with over the years - I only remember names when I think the opinion is so out of kilter with Wikipedia that I need to do some extra research. Worm^TT(talk) 10:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

People who've proven capable of closing XfDs are turned down, so why should we care if someone's who's never even performed an XfD closure is turned down? Perhaps you should extend your sympathy to people who deserve it. Alakzi (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, your argument is that "because non admins as a group are not allowed to close XfDs as delete, we should not care about an individual who has had over 50 people detail their perceived failings"? What Liz has put up with on her RfA is just about the worst thing for an individual to put up with on Wikipedia (accepting the fact that, you know, it's just a website), you may not support her RfA, but a little sympathy is definitely reasonable. If you don't care, that's fine - you can not care elsewhere. Worm^TT(talk) 10:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I've supported Liz's RfA, and I've got a good laugh out of her being referred to as an "SJW"; if people are calling you that, you're probably on the right track. And I absolutely agree - it is an ordeal to have to go through. Gerda was commenting on her being trusted with the admin bit, which I think there's plenty other people who'd put it to better use. Alakzi (talk) 10:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Apologies, I probably came off a little grumpy there. Thanks for clarifying. Worm^TT(talk) 11:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

My closing remark does sound somewhat acrimonious - I've struck it. Alakzi (talk) 11:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Rubbing my eyes: I supported Liz, and think I expressed that clearly by saying "no reason for me not to trust her to perform functions which will be well watched ... by the community". I also supported her as another woman with feelings, but confess that I have seen worse RfAs, PumpkinSky for example, where the integrity of the candidate was questioned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:10, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, the idea that usernames that are actual women's names - real names or not - attract more participation is one of those things I believe but can't substantiate. I don't think my case is all that comparable, even aside from the numbers. People tended to read "Opabinia" as female even before I specified my gender, but it's clearly not a name, and many of the comments at my RfA were about the circumstances more than about me in particular. Even though the comments at Liz's RfA are mostly politely expressed and well-reasoned, they're also very personal in a way that is noticeably different from other recent examples. Opabinia regalis (talk) 16:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I think people can overestimate the oddity of "coming out of retirement" comments. I remember when I left Wikipedia for several months back in 2009 that I would still sign in to read wikipedia and take a look at what was going on. Seeing familiar people at RfA/RfB prompted me to participate even though I wasn't really making any other edits at the time (Jan - Mar 2009 contribs), but no one approached me to tell me the RfXs were happening. WJBscribe (talk) 09:17, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

We will never know. There are all sorts of backchannels, including secretive off-wiki mailing lists such as that started by Lightbreather at systers.org, but AGF is deemed to be paramount, which kind of enables certain things (despite PACT). Maybe something will come of my recent query at WT:RFA.

FWIW, I've also been surprised that supports seem to be generally accepted by the community even when they do not give a meaningful rationale, but opposes are expected to provide such. All this said, I'm not a regular haunter of RfA stuff: I turn up when I already have a fair amount of dealings with the nominated person. - Sitush (talk) 12:26, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Supports are generally "per nominator / nomination" by default, but opposes are expected to give rationales. They can, of course, give a "per X's rationale" response, and those are rarely challenged. Worm^TT(talk) 12:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, the main Systers list is closely moderated and nothing interesting ever happens there; I doubt the wikipedia sub-list is any different. Opabinia regalis (talk) 16:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Alternative Proposal for De-sysopping Procedure

As you are one of the joint proposers of WP:BARC and very invested in reform, I would appreciate it if you take a look at a recent draft of an alternative proposal for de-sysopping that I've written at User:BU Rob13/RfC for Administrator Re-election. Your thoughts, whatever they might be, are very welcome on the talk page. I'm trying to determine if this is a feasible RfC to run. ~ Rob^Talk 20:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Your deletion to Manx Pound

Gooday. Thanks for your deletion of an unspecifed reference. I have taken another screenshot and added to the COIN file I am preparing; to this end I had already established a dedicated email address (at a time when I am trying to finish with Wikipedia, I am having to learn 'new' stuff, involving much down-time). This sequence is connected with a recent SPI and subsequent unblock with specific instruction from the Admin/CU/Oversighter not to edit unlogged-in, with penalty of permanent block (two admins, both of whom I requested should be available in the future, due to the BF of the Master/Sock - so far, I have resisted the temptation to ping them). I have been trying to identify further socks in the draw (and will continue), hence the two IP addresses which have suddenly deleted historic content - I am unconcerned about the actual article reference itself (which is clearly BS, and the adding editor has been noted and screenshotted) but the actual details contained therein are highly-poignant. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Agljones/Archive, [10]

Already, I have identified another Master/Sock pairing and taken advice from a CU, who wants a new SPI. IMO, this is unconnected, as the sock is used for promotional purposes and is presently inactive, so just sitting on that one for a bit until I learn how to do it (further advice from CU was assured).

I really shouldn't have gone this far publicly, but I feel somewhat-justified, as I regret that you've concluded " an immense amount of bad faith" on my part, when I have always tried to be low-key and respectful of WP:OUTING where this individual is concerned. The edit summaries were intended to be firm and informative for the controlling Master (too late for politeness), trying to force a known-editor, who has failed to respond to COI-delaration request (98% single-topic area), to log-in and request a permanent visibility reduction from an admin/oversighter. Obviously, you've had a private message leading you to this Manx Pound article, so think about it - particularly if there is a subsequent oversight sequence relating to the same reference. I hope you are now less confused! I became superficially involved with this in May, 2014 note the edit summary, with more since June 2015 and obviously still ongoing. After you've digested the gist, you can reduce the visibility of this message, but - again - I would request that you be available in the future (I added a bit more to the original draft). Assume that both my talk page and contributions are being surveilled.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 14:11, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll do my best. Feel free to email me anything further. Worm^TT(talk) 14:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Noted, thanks.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 17:38, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Sunshine!

		Sunshine!
		Hello Worm That Turned! Bhootrina (talk) has given you a bit of sunshine to brighten your day! Sunshine promotes WikiLove and hopefully it has made your day better. Spread the sunshine by adding {{subst:User:Meaghan/Sunshine}} to someone else's talk page, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. In addition, you can spread the sunshine to anyone who visits your userpage and/or talk page by adding {{User:Meaghan/Sunshine icon}}. Happy editing! Bhootrina (talk) 13:54, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

RfA review

Hello. Recently I have been thinking about running for adminship; however during the past two or three months I have been very busy in real life. Now that I have more time to edit again, I am seriously considering the idea. Please, would you review my contributions? I would definitely appreciate some advice about whether to go for it. Thank you, BethNaught (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, you probably shouldn't bother. This doesn't look good. Thanks anyway, though. BethNaught (talk) 20:48, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

  Hi BethNaught, one of my basic requirements is a 6 month period of activity. As you say, you're just coming back from a break - feel free to come back to me in a few months, whilst keeping up the editing. It may help to read over my magic formula and keep in mind that you shouldn't bite the newbies! Ultimate AGF, ok :D Worm^TT(talk) 10:19, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Implementation of Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Bureaucrat activity requirements

Following a community discussion ending August 2015, consensus was reached to remove the bureaucrat permissions of users who have not participated in bureaucrat activity for three years.

“ Bureaucrats are expected to exercise the duties granted by their role while remaining cognizant of relevant community standards concerning their tasks. In addition to the "Inactive bureaucrat accounts" requirements, if a bureaucrat does not participate in bureaucrat activity for over three years, their bureaucrat permissions may be removed. The user must be notified on their talk page and by email one month before the removal, and again and a few days prior to the removal. If the user does not return to bureaucrat activity, another bureaucrat may request the removal of permissions at meta:Steward requests/Permissions. Permissions removed for not meeting bureaucrat activity requirements may be re-obtained through a new request for bureaucratship. ”

To assist with the implementation of this requirement, please see Wikipedia:Bureaucrat activity. Modeled after Wikipedia:Inactive administrators and similar to that process, the log page will be created on 1 September 2015. Bureaucrats who have not met the activity requirements as of that date will be notified by email (where possible) and on their talk page to advise of the pending removal.

If the notified user does not return to bureaucrat activity and the permissions are removed, they will need to request reinstatement at WP:RFB. Removal of access is procedural only, and not intended to reflect negatively upon the affected user in any way.

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. –xeno^talk

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:20, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

RTV

I'm curious about this flurry of vanishing editors...is this typical? I remember it being quite rare and now there are several today. It's always a bit sad to see even if it is understandable.
Hope all is well with you, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:17, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Just got a bit behind on the mailing list... Typically about 1 per day comes in. Worm^TT(talk) 22:17, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Wow, so around 350 a year...I had no idea so many editors took advantage or RTV or even knew that it was an option. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:41, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know the exact numbers and a significant portion are rejected as either zero edits or not in good standing, but it's definitely a significant number. Worm^TT(talk) 07:16, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for tending to the mailing list, WTT. Something to consider: using the form "VanishedUser nnnnnn" might draw more attention to the account than using the form "RenamedUser nnnnnnnnn", which is why I typically favour the latter. –xeno^talk 10:34, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Now you mention it, I agree. Will do so in the future. I've no problem keeping an eye on the mailing list, my email seems so quiet these days since I came off Arbcom. Not that I miss it! By the way, on vanished users - I'd appreciate another crat or two having a look at this discussion on whether vanished users should appear on the list of Wikipedians by number of edits. Worm^TT(talk) 10:42, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Commented there. Thanks again :) –xeno^talk 10:53, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

RE: Notification

Hello. I've received your notification (I didn't realise it had been a year!) and I'm just confirming that I'm still alive and around. KaisaL (talk) 11:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks KaisaL, I'll make sure to remove your name! Worm^TT(talk) 11:12, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Can you please change my name to user392819?

Hello. Can you please change my name to user392819? Regards; Have a nice day. --HakimPhilo (talk) 19:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Changing_username NE Ent 20:33, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case opened

You may opt-out of future notification regarding this case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Notification list. You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Evidence. Please add your evidence by September 8, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:43, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Invite to Editathon

Hi, I'm organising another Editathon, this time at Clitheroe castle Museum. The details can be found here Wikipedia:GLAM/Clitheroe Castle Museum. Would be great if you could come. Jhayward001 (talk) 15:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Adminship

Hello, I'm looking at potentially requesting adminship for Wikipedia. I have been making / editing articles (particularly in the Bio-Sciences and Medical fields) for nearly a decade now. I feel like I have a good grip on not only the syntax/nomenclature but also the rules for editing articles, and I am wondering what I would need to do to take the next step. You mentioned that you would be willing to take a look at potential admin and give advice (and potentially nominations). Either would be appreciated! FrozenMan (talk) 00:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi FrozenMan. Thanks for taking the time to contact me. It's great to hear you're interested in adminship - in that you're clearly interested in getting more involved in Wikipedia. Having done a lot of research on the adminship process, I can tell you that no one has passed "RfA" in the past few years with your level of contributions. Most editors who are successful have more than 10k edits, though a few have less than that. Those who look at the request and give an opinion like to have a large number of edits to base their opinion on, as well as knowledge that the potential administrator is a regular contributor to the encyclopedia.
So, at the moment, I'd say you're not ready to become an administrator, but that doesn't mean you don't have options! There are a lot of other permissions which I believe you would be ready for, many are explained at the requests for permissions. Otherwise, have a look at my magic formula to becoming an admin, see if there are any areas you could try working in. I'm happy to offer advice if you're confused about any. In a lot of those areas, you'll get to see what administrators do, what they deal with and will have a much better idea of what is needed to become one. I hope that helps. Worm^TT(talk) 11:43, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Request for clarification of an ArbCom decision you participated in

Hi. I have filed a Request for clarification of Remedy 2.2 of WP:ARBRAN, concerning a topic ban placed on User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ). Since you were a member of ArbCom at the time, any insights you may wish to share about the committee's thinking would be welcome. Thanks. BMK (talk) 21:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Please sign new Wikimedia confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information by 15 December

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As you may know, the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees approved a new "Access to nonpublic information policy" on 25 April 2014 after a community consultation. The former policy has remained in place until the new policy could be implemented. That implementation work is now being done, and we are beginning the transition to the new policy.

An important part of that transition is helping volunteers like you sign the required confidentiality agreement. All Wikimedia volunteers with access to nonpublic information are required to sign this new agreement, and we have prepared some documentation to help you do so.

The Wikimedia Foundation is requiring that anyone with access to nonpublic information sign the new confidentiality agreement by 15 December 2015 (OTRS users have until 22 December 2015) to retain their access. You are receiving this email because you have access to nonpublic information and are required to sign the confidentiality agreement under the new policy.

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Posted by the MediaWiki message delivery 23:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC) • Translate • Get help

APerson RfA

First, you moved Cassianto's badgering to the talk page, and then deleted it completely. If that was a deliberate bureaucrat's action, and not some mix-up, then I would heartily thank you for this bold move. The badgering was annoying, and the whole thread was useless and rather uncivil on Cassianto's side. I think your action has set a useful precedent for future RfAs. There's now only the question what to do with the notices that the discussions have been moved to the talk page where they are not anymore. Kraxler (talk) 14:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't mean to delete it, I think doing so is just too far on the bold side. At the same time, you'll see on Cassianto's talk page that I have discussed the matter with him. Once the RfA is over, I do intend to start a discussion on what should happen with such votes in the future. At any rate, I've now restored the comments at the talk page. Worm^TT(talk) 14:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok. No problem with me. I suspected from the beginning that it was too good to be true. My opinion on simple "Support" votes is in my answer to Cassianto. Kraxler (talk) 14:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Help us improve wikimeets by filling in the UK Wikimeet survey!

Hello! I'm running a survey to identify the best way to notify Wikimedians about upcoming UK wikimeets (informal, in-person social meetings of Wikimedians), and to see if we can improve UK wikimeets to make them accessible and attractive to more editors and readers. All questions are optional, and it will take about 10 minutes to complete. Please fill it in at:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/JJMNVVD

Thanks! Mike Peel (talk) 17:21, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For all the hard work you do! MarkYabloko (talk) 14:30, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Administrator

Hello Dave! Quick question for you. Does being an administrator on en.wikipedia.org transfers your privileges automatically to wikipedia.org in other languages? MarkYabloko (talk) 14:29, 28 September 2015 (UTC)MarkYabloko

Hi Mark, I'm afraid not - I only have user-rights on the English Wikipedia. There are some people who have "global" user-rights, but I've never looked into how that works! Worm^TT(talk) 14:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Dave, that was quick and insightful. MarkYabloko (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2015 (UTC)MarkYabloko

You got mail

Sorry I shortened the diff. The Nikolaikirche where the Monday demonstrations began is pictured on the Main page on our National holiday, DYK? Time to celebrate, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Reguyla

Do you have any reason why I should not re-block Reguyla for immediately breaking his unblock conditions. [11] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:18, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

NeilN, It was a one time statement in response to 2 years of being blocked. Frankly nothing I do is going to prevent you or someone else from finding an excuse to block me, so if you want to use that as the excuse that's within your right. Personally I would prefer it if everyone tried to act like adults and tried to move on. There are plenty of other things I could do wrong if you just wait a little bit. I haven't really been able to edit in a while so its likely I'll make some mistakes when editing you can use as justifications. But, just maybe assuming some good faith might be beneficial here rather than jumping to conclusions. I do have over 500, 000 edits, created hundreds of articles and have more than a dozen featured. Maybe just maybe if everyone puts down the pitchforks and stops finding a reason to create drama everything will turn out ok. I am not the one who just Diva quit the project after all. Reguyla (talk) 16:31, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Floquenbeam is a well respected editor. I don't appreciate you referring to them as a "diva". HighInBC 16:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure you do and I am sure its not the only thing I am going to say that someone won't like. Floq said lots of things I didn't like either. Look, Me and Floq don't like each other, there's no secret there. But its a big project and I am under a restriction of interacting with them. So the act of running to request they be desysopped and quiting the project just because I am unblocked is the epitome of a Diva quit. Personally I am disappointed, I think they do a lot of good work even with the bad and I would have preferred it if we just stayed away from each other for a while. My sincere hope is they change their mind and return because Floq is a net positive for the project, but they are an adult and can make their own decisions. My personal feeling is if my return is enough to make them quit, then they were probably already on the fence about staying anyway. Reguyla (talk) 16:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

BTW, for what its worth if I thought it would help I would go to Floquenbeams page or to the Bureaucrat noticeboard and ask them to stay on the project myself. But I can't and it probably wouldn't help anyway if people even took the comments seriously at all. I don't want Floquenbeam to quit the project, I just don't want to be blocked and not allowed to edit either. Reguyla (talk) 16:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Neil, I have no reason at all that he should not be blocked and one of his strikes gone. I am seething that he made that comment, especially as his return. I remained around for a good few hours after I made the unblock, but then only had access via my phone. I sent him a pointed email, using the phrase "kicking in the teeth". That said, he hasn't been and if we do move forward I can grit my teeth at the lack of gratitude. Worm^TT(talk) 19:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• WTT, did you discuss this unblock with the last blocking administrator? Could you please point me to the evidence of that discussion? Was there a discussion at any other place beside the single unblock request on Reguyla's page? Was there any off-wiki discussion? (I don't automatically think that is bad, but it would be useful to know.) And have you reviewed Reguyla's edits since the time he was unblocked? Are you going to routinely assess them, or are you going to give a hard time to any administrator who feels that your very minimal conditions have been breached? Let's just get the cards on the table here. Risker (talk) 17:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  Hi Risker. I did not discuss the matter with floquenbeam, as I saw no benefit of those discussions. His blocking summary was clear - that he thought Reguyla's behaviour was a farce and straight indef. At the time, I agreed with him. Instead of arguing for an appeal, I went down the route of parole, working for decent restrictions. I had a lot of off-wiki discussion with Reguyla, where he has complied with my every request, from declaring accounts (less accurately) IPs to admitting he was at fault for some of his behaviours to agreeing to restriction. As you know, I've a great deal of experience with mentorship and helping people return to the community. We got to the point that the only thing more he could do was prove himself, and therefore I'm giving him that chance. I believe I mentioned this off wiki discussion in my unblock request. I have reviewed a large number of Reguyla's edits in the past 12 months. Every blocked account he had declared and most of the IPs I could find. The vast majority were good edits, no vandalism and generally not carrying on grudges. He spent a lot of time focussed on the RfA process and a few other meta areas, but generally he was focussed on articles.
  As for going forward, Reguyla is too experienced to be put under a "mentorship", but I intend to regularly spot check his edits, in a variety of namespaces. I also intend to regularly follow things that are raised on his talk page. Effectively, what I'd do for any other mentorship candidate. I would certainly not complain about any uninvolved admins enforcing my restrictions, as you say, the restrictions are minimal. I hope that clarifies. Worm^TT(talk) 19:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  • • WTT, I'm sorry, but having "lots of experience" with mentorship is not the same thing here, especially since you have no intention of actually mentoring anyone. And your mentorships have not been universally successful either. You've done nothing to persuade anyone other than yourself that this is a worthwhile idea. I'm quite disappointed in *you* for the process you have taken here. People do not have a right to edit Wikipedia, and the unblocking of individuals with a long and nasty history of harmful and trolling behaviour should not be the preserve of a single administrator. If you can't build a case to persuade the community that Reguyla should be allowed back - it's been done before with editors who have a long history of problems - then maybe you should be reconsidering your actions. Risker (talk) 19:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
      • I have enough experience to know when official "mentorship" is not an option, as it's a snub, but for all intents and purposes, I intend to be involved. As for my mentorships not being universally successful, no they haven't, but I've also got decent track record. I'd be worried by anyone who did have 100% success, they're clearly not taking on problem cases. I never expected to get thanks here, but the fact is I'm confident it's the right thing to do. Worm^TT(talk) 19:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
        • I'm sorry, but I disagree that either (a) this is the right thing to do through a unilateral unblock process or (b) that you as an individual administrator have completed sufficient research to do it. I am genuinely concerned that you have been drinking at the fountain of good faith for so long that you're missing some pretty obvious issues here. For example...have you read anything Reguyla has written on Meta in the past few months? Are they not the kind of posts that would meet your own blocking criteria if they'd been made on this project? (If they're not, then I'm hard-pressed to understand why you even bothered with those criteria.) Risker (talk) 19:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
          • @Risker: A few links might be nice here. John Carter (talk) 19:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
            • Honestly, no. I've been focused on enWP, and haven't seen his actions off it. Links would certainly be helpful on that, or I'll do some research tomorrow. Worm^TT(talk) 20:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Start with this, which was made less than three weeks ago, and check out this discussion where just over a month ago Reguyla was blocked from a number of wikipedia/wikimedia-related IRC channels for making the same type of complaints that would have been blocking material per WTT's list. You can keep looking back and back; the pattern has not changed. Risker (talk) 20:13, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Had I seen that, I'd have been handling things differently, certainly. I possibly wouldn't have unblocked - he was aware of the restrictions when he posted that and if he wasn't taking them to heart on meta, he wouldn't have taken them to heart elsewhere. Worm^TT(talk) 07:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• "Should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month." Under what authority are you limiting what actions other admins can take? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:13, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  The restrictions are not blockable offences, save for the fact that I've declared them so. So, surely I can declare how they are enforced. All or nothing. You are of course, welcome to block for any other offence as you would at any other time. Worm^TT(talk) 19:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

There is also discussion on Reguyla's talk page at User talk:Reguyla#One of the restrictions not clear requesting clarification of the restriction about the specifics of the Reguyla's limited ability to interact with administrators. Some specifics regarding that would be welcome. John Carter (talk) 18:17, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I have answered there. Worm^TT(talk) 19:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

And I've blocked again. I see no change in behavior. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I've declined the unblock request. If you don't see the change, you didn't see him at his worst. I may not have blocked for a month for that, but I also would have blocked for longer (if I was online when he did it). Worm^TT(talk) 19:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, I myself, as a non-admin of at best dubious judgment, support the idea of the unblock, and, more or less as I've said elsewhere, probably would have supported the lifting of the block if it had been raised at a noticeboard. I'm not even sure, under the circumstances, that I necessarily agree with the new block myself, but, knowing hindsight is 20/20, I really wish that this had been discussed at one of the noticeboards in advance. John Carter (talk) 19:54, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Review_of_Reguyla_.28Kumioko.29_reblock. I echo John's sentiment. The unblock should have been raised at a noticeboard. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

You said you would answer all criticism in the morning. Speaking for myself, someone who in general is one of those idiots who almost always will give someone one more last chance, I guess I have only one thing to say; Next time, seek community input before acting. I can't trout you for trying to redeem an editor who has been valuable, even one who some might see as being as far gone as this one, but I hope that if you ever find yourself in this situation in the future you at least get some idiots like me who never learn about giving too many last chances in for input and to be able to help back you up in advance before acting. John Carter (talk) 22:23, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Cheer up! During times of difficulty animals provide some of the warmest and unconditional comfort. If you don't have one, well then you can always settle with a chat with an old Wiki friend, if you need! Either way, one mustn't feel any blame for being a decent administrator - indeed, a decent person - for assuming good faith and giving someone another chance. You stuck your neck out, and I'm sure, you'll get it back. You've got the respect of the community Dave!

—MelbourneStar☆^talk 08:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

FWIW

I won't bother commenting on the pros and cons (plenty of others are doing that, and there ARE plenty of both to be found); but I do appreciate the efforts you put in here. Hope next week goes better for you. — Ched :  ?  11:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Ched. That means a lot. Worm^TT(talk) 11:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Answer

You said you'd post answer(s) in the morning...

When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. - Paul McCartney.

P.S. would you mind unblocking me after my forthcoming "copyvio" block? NE Ent

Hi Ent. Can't just let this one be, I stuck my neck out, the community deserves to hear why - and I deserve whatever I get. Worm^TT(talk) 07:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Please. Stop. Seriously. You explained your reasoning when you made the unblock, and you were entirely conceptually correct (Ultimatum) about the editor resignation (but shouldn't have said anything). You're going to get flack for a day or two and a few grudge holders will be mumbling for months about it. But stop with the "I made the right decision," and "I'm open to recall." It shouldn't be about you, or about Flo, but simply Reguyla. You didn't make a "right" decision nor did you make a "wrong" decision; you just made a good faith decision that didn't work out. So please let people have their say and let the drama play out. NE Ent 12:30, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry, I've stepped back (and have been for a couple of hours). Thanks for keeping an eye out for me though. Worm^TT(talk) 12:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm with NE Ent here, completely. You shouldn't have to take this flak at all. Sure I see some valid questions, but those wanting to twist your head off and blaming you for losing Flo is just out outrageous and ridiculous. If someone does indeed take it too far and take your actions to ArbCom I will step in to defend you.—^cyberpower_Chat:Online 15:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

If anyone takes you to ArbCom over this, Cyberpower won't be the only one there. By the time the request for case is closed, I tend to believe that the majority of the committee members will begin to wonder how I manage to post 50 hours of typed to the group every single day. Forget wall-of-words, we will be talking world's-tallest-mountain-of-words. But I honestly rather doubt that there would be many people that extreme to even consider it. John Carter (talk) 19:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I know you're sick of this, but...

I mentioned your name over at the AN thread regarding some contact I have had with Reguyla and something which came to mind to me based on that contact. I would be very grateful, particularly knowing you are probably sick of this discussion by now, regarding your opinion of my comments and proposal there. John Carter (talk) 23:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations

Nice work. Now do the decent thing and follow his example. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Worm already knows, believe me. And it is worth noting that Floq has since indicated he might come back after his personal feelings of disgust abate, and that he can get the admin tools back at request. I can't begrudge Worm taking a break, because both he and Floq, as former arbitrators, certainly deserve to be able to take any at will, and that seems to be (I hope) what Floq is doing, but that would be about the only example to follow. John Carter (talk) 00:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Boris, if you feel that strongly, follow this process. I'm not going to resign for trying to do the right thing. Worm^TT(talk) 07:12, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Given that the recall process is entirely voluntary and that admins are free to disregard the outcome, I think I'll pass.

Look, I don't dispute that your intent is noble. Giving people a second, third, fourth... Nth chance accords with our cultural values of redemption and rehabilitation. ("Our" in a very broad sense, not just Wikipedia.) The problem with this approach is its implicit disregard for the time and energy of those who have to deal with the prodigals. I don't think that's done contemptuously or even deliberately. But it's frustrating just the same.

Every decision has costs and benefits. Too often it feels like the cost/benefit analysis is skewed by valuing the time and effort of constructive editors who play by the rules at essentially zero. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:36, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Have a cold Ale on me

		A beer on me!
		For ALWAYS assuming good faith and reaching out civily to others, even those that don't necessarily deserve it KoshVorlon 11:11, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Reminder: Please sign new Wikimedia confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information by 15 December

This is a message from the Wikimedia Foundation. Translations are available.

I wanted to follow-up on an message I sent you in September regarding the need for you to sign a confidentiality agreement by 15 December 2015 (OTRS users have until 31 December 2015) in order to maintain your access from Wikimedia to nonpublic information.

As you may know, the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees approved a new "Access to nonpublic information policy" on 25 April 2014 after a community consultation. The former policy has remained in place until the new policy could be implemented. That implementation work is now being done, and we are transitioning to the new policy.

An important part of that transition is helping volunteers like you sign the required confidentiality agreement. All Wikimedia volunteers with access to nonpublic information are required to sign this new agreement, and we have prepared some documentation to help you do so.

The Wikimedia Foundation is requiring that anyone with access to nonpublic information sign the new confidentiality agreement by 15 December 2015 (OTRS users have until 31 December 2015) to retain their access. You are receiving this message because you have access to nonpublic information and are required to sign the confidentiality agreement under the new policy. If you do not sign the new confidentiality agreement by 15 December 2015, you will lose your access to nonpublic information.

Signing the confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information is conducted and tracked using Legalpad on Phabricator. We have prepared a guide on Meta-Wiki to help you create your Phabricator account and sign the new agreement: Confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information/How to sign

If you have any questions or experience any problems while signing the new agreement, please visit this talk page or email me (gvarnumwikimedia.org). Again, please sign this confidentiality agreement by 15 December 2015 (OTRS users have until 31 December 2015) to retain your access to nonpublic information. If you do not wish to retain this access, please let me know and we will forward your request to the appropriate individuals.

Thank you,
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Posted by the MediaWiki message delivery 08:11, 16 October 2015 (UTC) • Translate • Get help

Olkhovska Iryna

Apparently this article Olkhovska Iryna was previously deleted as Iryna Olkhovska, but Derek R Bullamore (talk) and I are unable to track it down. This woman is not notable, and over a hundred inline citations will not help the article. Can you help us?--DThomsen8 (talk) 13:36, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

It looks like it was deleted as A7 previously, and the current state of the article doesn't show any different. I'd recommend simply tagging it as A7. Worm^TT(talk) 13:42, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Email

Hello, Worm That Turned. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Ayub407^talk 19:11, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Ayub407, I haven't got it. Worm^TT(talk) 07:24, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

You didn't? Well that's awkward. I'll check again and re-send it. I'm sorry for the inconvenience caused Ayub407^talk 07:44, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I have sent again. Please let me know if you didn't get it. Sorry for the disturbance. Ayub407^talk 18:47, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Still nothing Ayub407, perhaps send it direct to worm.that.turnedgmail.com Worm^TT(talk) 05:32, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

AfD mass tagging

Hello there. Given that you recently warned Mdann52 (talk · contribs) over warring, I wanted to let you know that Mdann52(alt) (talk · contribs) is using a bot to mass-tagging airline destinations articles for deletion. Please also note that no valid reasons have been provided. I started a thread regarding the matter at WT:AIRLINE. You're welcome to drop some lines to the discussion. Thanks.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 16:17, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I opened an AfD discussion as a result of an ANI discussion. I'm tagging all the articles that are included with the nomination. Can you let me know how following the steps outlined at WP:AFD is incorrect? --Mdann52 (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Let's start with this: no valid reasons have been provided.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 16:47, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Your block

Long overdue. pablo 12:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps. I hadn't looked into the situation until recently - a case of Somebody Elses Problem - but I trust there were good reasons for the block not being made. Worm^TT(talk) 12:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Not arguing the merits of the block but Arbcom should clean up their own mess, unless your actions were to make them look worse for not acting. If they erred in their judgement they should have have the integrity to own it. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 13:36, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I have no comment on whether or not they erred, I haven't seen the evidence they've seen. I looked into it last night and saw sufficient evidence to block. I slept on it, checked it this morning and took action. I believe the block has now been adopted by Arbcom, make of that what you will. Worm^TT(talk) 13:46, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Opera

I like today's Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:13, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

CU requested

Can you CU me and email me the results including the raw data returned?—^cyberpower_Chat:Online 14:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Nope. For a number of reasons. Firstly, I'm not a CU. Secondly, CU cannot be self requested and thirdly, results cannot be disclosed. If you want the data, set up your own wiki, install the CU extension and CU yourself. You may be able to do the same on the test wiki, but I don't know the criteria. Worm^TT(talk) 14:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Firstly I could've sworn you were a CU, secondly why not?, and thirdly, if they're my account?? Having seen that notice on BN I wanted to be sure I wasn't being accessed from someplace unusual.—^cyberpower_Chat:Online 14:50, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I was whilst on Arbcom, but have no interest in CU so handed in the right the day I left. Grounds for checking per policy says On some Wikimedia projects, an editor's IP addresses may be checked upon his or her request, typically to prove innocence against a sockpuppet allegation. Such checks are not allowed on the English Wikipedia and such requests will not be granted. As for the third, well, the second generally prevents that, but I always ran with "never give out checkuser information to anyone". You may be able to persuade someone that your permission is sufficient if you can get past #2. Worm^TT(talk) 14:59, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Alternatively, Cyberpower could access one of the various third party sites that answers the question What is my browser? (Not providing link 'cause someone might decide I'm "enabling socks" because we're all supposed to be too stupid to use google -- comment not directed at WTT, of course). NE Ent 15:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

To be fair to Cyberpower, he explained that his request was not so much for his current data - which can be found easily, but for the past data to see if he'd be hacked. Accessing those third party sites wouldn't answer that question. Worm^TT(talk) 15:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Correct. I changed the password to Wikipedia, nearly scrambled actually, just in case, but I would have liked to know if there was suspicious access going on.—^cyberpower_Chat:Online 15:44, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Mail call

I saw your message on my page. I won't be able to check my email until lunch (I also contribute at work). I see you reverted me, don't worry, I won't touch it, I have an idea why that happened. I wasn't saying exactly what could have happened, but I get it , it was removed per WP:BEANS. I'll be able to read the email away from my desk, you've probably provided a clear rationale for this, as always. Thanks! KoshVorlon 13:59, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed - my email wasn't so much about the revision, but more about the actual issue behind it :) Worm^TT(talk) 14:02, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I recieved your email. No problems at all. However, what was behind the massive revdel on the security review RFC, your rationale says RM IP indicating an IP posted, however, you removed a bunch of items after that IP posted. Was all that really necessary ? KoshVorlon 17:28, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Yep. All those revisions showed the IP. Worm^TT(talk) 18:16, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Unblock of former Peter Damian alternative account

Hi Dave,

As you performed the original unblock of Peter Damian when his ban was lifted, would you mind also unblocking Renamed user 4? I've sworn off using the block tool directly, as you may recall. I've already lifted protection and removed the ban templates.

Cheers,  — Scott • talk 11:05, 5 November 2015 (UTC).

Hi Scott. I don't know of any restrictions that Peter Damian is under, but I'm generally not keen on removing blocks on alternative accounts without good reason. Peter, can I ask what you intend to use the account for? Cheers Worm^TT(talk) 11:17, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been more clear - he hasn't used that account since 2008 and I doubt ever will again. This is simply a courtesy that I think we can offer to someone who's now an editor in good standing, to not have any active blocks associated with them (as shown in SHOUTY LETTERS by popups if you happen to hover over any link to that account). The user page should probably be a redirect to PD's current account, but I didn't go that far yet.  — Scott • talk 11:22, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Weren't there a number of accounts that fell into this category though? I seem to remember a time when there was Peter Damian 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. My memory could be failing me on that though. I was under the impression that the accounts were renamed to reduce the association with Peter, though I don't know which ones have been renamed and which ones not. Are you suggesting we unblock all the accounts? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. I'd be happy with reducing associations between them, for exactly the reasons you state - I don't see the SHOUTY LETTERS linking the accounts though. Worm^TT(talk) 11:30, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

The shouty popups would be a result of some sort of gadget or Javascript Scott has activated. 13:32, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I get that, but I use the standard set of popups - i.e. WP:Popups - and I don't see em. Thought Scott might be able to give us an idea of the magnitude of the problem. Worm^TT(talk) 13:42, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, right, that must be coming from User:PleaseStand/userinfo.js. Screenshot. It's been so long since I installed it that I'd started thinking it was built in. (It should, IMHO, but that's a different discussion.) Well, not much of a problem then.

Regarding the numeric accounts, I feel that if there's no explicit reason for an account to be blocked (PD can't use them to evade a block, because he's not blocked), then they shouldn't be. We have reams of policy about what we do when someone is banned, but very little about when they're unbanned, and I would quite like to set a clear precedent on this occasion. It would firm up the edge of "when should an account be blocked" a little. I'm sure an assurance could be obtained from PD as to whether he would use them again, if necessary, but in the absence of any compelling reason to go that far, it strikes me as overkill.  — Scott • talk 14:08, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Well that looks very similar to the navigation popups that I use - enabled through Preferences --> Gadgets, but not by default. I expect there are quite a few people who have those shouty letters appear, but on the popup you were looking at it's not clear that Renamed User 4 is Peter Damian (unless you actually go to the page in question).
As for the rest, I believe that generally accounts created to evade a block should remain blocked even after the main account is unblocked. I understand that you'd like to set a precedent, but I would say the precedent is already set, whenever Arbcom unblocks a banned user who has been evading their ban they put a one account restriction on the individual. Now, the community didn't do that for Peter, but unless he needs the account for some reason or other, I'd be reluctant unblock the accounts. There's a number of thought processes behind that

1. The history of the situation is preserved by keeping the status quo.
2. Should Peter fall back out of favour, the accounts would have to be re-blocked.
3. No one needs that many accounts, and actively using them could evade scrutiny.

I know I'm sounding very much a mindless drone here, but I'm very much one who picks his battles. I'm not seeing the benefit of this one. Worm^TT(talk) 14:23, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Right - forget the popups. Here: Special:Contributions/Renamed user 4 , Special:Contributions/Renamed user 5. Big pink box of shame. Says he's banned by Jimbo, has a link in it that contains his current user name. That's the necessity. Maintaining these blocks provides no benefit to the project, but in fact does it a double disservice - firstly, but unfairly labelling PD as still being banned, all sorts of which labels should have been vacated instantly (it's shocking that I've found these ones still in existence over half a year later); and secondly, misrepresenting the consensus of the community at [12]. When consensus has been found for something here, nothing should contradict or misrepresent it. Certainly not something that's out of the reach of normal users to change, like a block notice.

Regarding single-account restrictions, the only enforcement one of those needs is a promise, not a padlock. If PD was going to contravene one, he would simply create new accounts. Blocking these old accounts is completely useless in that context.

I brought this directly to you as a courtesy, but if you think it's going to be a "battle", I'll just take it to AN, where matters of common dignity can be given a broader audience.  — Scott • talk 15:18, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Please do, I'd be interested to hear the results. Worm^TT(talk) 15:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I would appreciate an unblock of the renamed user account, as that was clean at the time of the August 2009 ban, and had been renamed as a courtesy long before that. Peter Damian (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Ah I see that it was blocked 00:13, 7 September 2008 by CBrown, but unsure why that was, given it was a courtesy rename. Peter Damian (talk) 20:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

favor

could you point me to the meta discussion regarding passwords? Thank you. — Ched :  ?  10:48, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

There isn't one yet, but I'll make sure to point you that way when I set it up :) Worm^TT(talk) 10:49, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Don't.

Regarding your good advice, coincidence or not, someone just entered to Kafka: "faced by bizarre or nightmarish circumstances, unfathomable social-bureaucratic powers, and experiences of helplessness or despair". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:37, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Oops

Sorry about the mis-understanding in the Arb page regarding Neelix's desysop. I struck my comments are re-worded to be more clear on what I was saying. I realize you weren't saying you didn't support a de-sysop for Neelix. (Lack of coffee on my part! ) KoshVorlon 17:04, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Your thoughts on ArbCom

Hello Worm That Turned, I was pointed to your thought-provoking essay on ArbCom by Gerda Arendt, and I thought I would take you up on your invitation to ask you some questions. Before I get started, though: you did specifically ask for emails on that topic rather than talk page conversation. Is it all right if we do this on your talk page, or do you have a strong preference for email? —GrammarFascist _contribs^talk 17:50, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

quite happy to talk on wiki, if that's what you prefer - however, the vast majority of Arbcom business is hidden on email, so you will have to get used to it! Worm^TT(talk) 18:07, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I knew that, and understand the reasons for it, sensitive data and all that. Thanks for talking about ArbCom here though. (Also, thank you for having served on ArbCom previously, and for your other contributions to Wikipedia, of course.) It's mostly that I've been doing all my discussing of ArbCom relating to the upcoming elections on talk pages, and it's easier for me to keep track of it mentally if it's not on several different talk pages and in my email too. I have no problem with conversations that are primarily or entirely in email per se.

I did already ask some questions to GorillaWarfare here. You're welcome to answer any of those questions as well. Aside from that, let me keep things simple and open with two questions: One, do you think there's a point to anyone running since (if I understood your essay) you believe ArbCom is fundamentally broken? And two, what is your opinion on non-administrators running? —GrammarFascist _contribs^talk 19:01, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's not just the sensitive data, it's difficult enough getting the committee to do something as it is, but if every single statement was subject to intense scrutiny, less comments would be made and nothing would ever get done. Yes, I know it's bad for transparency, and decision making should be done in the open - but things comments like "Can people make sure they're voting on this soon?" Or "There's a discussion at AN that people might want to keep an eye on" are the sort of thing you can expect on the list, so you're not totally unprepared for the cases that are coming. On top of that there are many many emails which come in from members of the community, asking questions or highlighting issues. Plus BASC, case evidence and the odd CU/OS discussion. Expect about 100 different email threads per month on the Arbcom list, and a good couple of dozen appeals on BASC. That can rise and fall, but it's a good indication.

Anyway, that doesn't even begin to answer your questions, it's just me rabbiting on. To your first question, yes, there's probably a point to running for Arbcom - I may think it's broken, but someone needs to do the work. The problem is that it sucks any enjoyment out of the project - seeing the worst all the time, insane levels of bureaucracy, trying to maintain fairness and transparency whilst allowing people privacy. It's draining. But all the stuff needs to be handled by someone, somewhere.

As for your second - the issue of non-admins on Arbcom comes up every year. Personally I think that it'd be really good to have some non-admins on Arbcom, they'd add a valuable perspective to the discussion. However, there's a perception about non-admins among the community - that if you're not an admin, it's because you can't be an admin, and that's because you can't pass RfA... and therefore can't prove you have trust of the community. That's basically why no non-admin has ever come close.

Finally, your questions to GW. Arbcom will suck your entire life if you let it - you could easily spend 40 hours a week dealing with everything. However, I managed to cut it down to about an hour a day. Harassment, I received next to none, but you will receive commentary and be centre of attention. Worm^TT(talk) 20:02, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again for answering my questions, Worm That Turned. It sounds as though you're saying that being on ArbCom will only make one as miserable as one lets it? I'm glad to see that you think non-administrators being elected could be good for ArbCom, as your opinion on that naturally carries more weight than my own. Honestly, I'm kind of glad that I have such a slim chance of being elected, because (as I said to GW) it's not that I want to be on ArbCom so much as that I feel some responsibility to run. It sounds like an unpleasant 'job' and of course hardly anybody is ever happy with ArbCom decisions (and the few who are get drowned out by the rest) so it's largely thankless as well. I have to say one of the things I enjoy about Wikipedia is that other editors will send random thanks for edits (and I send thanks to others myself), which is a nice addition to the satisfaction of making the good edit in the first place. But I don't need thanks.

Now, I have no interest in being an administrator, but you raise an interesting point that there's a perception that non-administrators running for Arbcom can't pass an RfA. Do you think it would be an abuse of process (or be perceived as such) to apply for adminship solely to prove I could pass, and then resign those responsibilities if I did pass? There are hundreds of administrators, so one more or less makes little difference; but ArbCom has only 15 members. Obviously it's too late to do that for this year's elections, but there's always next year, assuming I'm not unlucky enough to be the first non-administrator elected to ArbCom this year.

As a follow-up question, if this doesn't seem too much like campaigning: What qualities do you look for in ArbCom candidates (and what would make you definitely !vote Oppose)? —GrammarFascist _contribs^talk 06:50, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, RfA is a terribly difficult process to get through at the moment, an editor without a few years experience and many thousands of edits stands little or no chance of passing. As for me, I'd suggest you have a look at my 2014 candidate table. You can see the sort of people I support and why, and also those I oppose and why. Hope that helps. I'll reply in a bit more depth in a day or so.Worm^TT(talk) 10:11, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I've decided after a lot of thinking that I'm not going to run this year, though I may run next year. (The RfA issue is just one of my reasons; primarily, I honestly don't think I'm ready to be on ArbCom, and it would be unfair to the community for me to take the chance I would be elected when I know I shouldn't be.) Your 2014 table was indeed very informative, thanks for the link. Do feel free to take your time in getting back to me with a more detailed response. —GrammarFascist _contribs^talk 06:08, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• Was just going to stop by and thank you for your thoughts. I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt, and I agree with just about everything you said. Reforms we started in 2009 got stalled and, as is no different from many other places on Wikipedia, those who felt most strongly about maintaining the status quo (in particular, resisting devolution of any powers or change of any processes) were the louder voices and many others simply faded into the background knowing that if they supported change they'd have to put up with months of haranguing and obstinacy. It left a very bad taste in my mouth. I mostly spend my time doing useful things now. Risker (talk) 19:33, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

↑ That. ‑ iridescent 19:52, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Could not agree more. Worm^TT(talk) 20:02, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Returning from singing all day ("doing useful things now"), the phrase "felt most strongly about maintaining the status quo (in particular, resisting devolution of any powers or change of any processes)" rings a loud bell (on top of the Kafka quote a little above) ;) - Thank you for Beethoven, where process was changed, you did something useful there, installing a case workshop design. - What is it about the latest kafkaesque case that "evidence" is sorted and no workshop planned? Bitter taste was mentioned.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite!

Hi there, You invited me to the Teahouse a while back when I first joined Wikipedia. I just discovered this feature, and wanted to send my thanks (as well as test out what happens after I send someone WikiLove). So thanks again! Hayden.L (talk) 22:19, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the cookie Hayden.L! Hope you have a great time at Wikipedia, let me know if you have any issues. Worm^TT(talk) 08:38, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration case accepted

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Neelix. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Neelix/Evidence. Please add your evidence by November 17, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Neelix/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.

For the Arbitration Committee, Amortias (T)(C) 20:46, 10 November 2015 (UTC)