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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Operation Pyrsos. Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:55, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian-Greek border incident

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Albanian-Greek border incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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The whole article is based on two sources. One is a primary source from August 12, 1949 (here), that actually refers to an Albanian radio report from August 10, which talked about an alleged invasion; however, in the same article we read that this was dismissed by Greece's Ministry for War as "fantastic" (fictitious), while Greek circles in London said that the allegation had no credence and that the only fighting that was taking place was near the Albanian border, as a result of the ongoing Greek Civil War between the Greek Government troops and the Greek Communists. But despite the misrepresentation of the primary source, we also have to take into account WP:AGE MATTERS and WP:RSBREAKING. The second source is an Albanian newspaper article by an individual named Përparim Halili (here); i did a quick search and he appears to be a journalist. In short, the article lacks reliable secondary sources, such as publications with a focus on military history; per WP:RSCONTEXT. Even the image that is being used is misleading. User:Wilhelm ii0, who created the article and uploaded the image, claims that it shows the bombardment of an Albanian village on 14 August, 1949; however, this photograph shows the Greek army opening fire against Greek guerrilla troops on 22nd May, 1948 (more than a year prior of the alleged incident). The image was actually taken from Getty Images (here), and constitutes a copyright violation; it has been nominated for speedy deletion. This supposed incident is obviously an outdated rumour that is based on the contemporaneous and easily verifiable Operation Pyrsos (needs some work as well), which marked the end of the Greek Civil War. Demetrios1993 (talk) 08:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Albanian article that you linked above was created by an IP, and doesn't include a single reference to support the claims. Furthermore, the three additional sources you included in the article, corroborate the point made above by User:Pikavoom. It also shows that the discussed article is essentially a WP:POVFORK of Operation Pyrsos (also known as Operation Torch; not to be confused with the 1942 Operation Torch). Here are the relevant quotes, and my own comments on them:
Gibler (2019): In August 1949 Albania claimed that Greek forces were invading the southern part of the country in an attempt to gain territory. The United Nations dismissed the allegation, citing Greece's efforts to fight the Communist rebels in the face of Albania's over support for the insurgency.
Comment: The Albanian claims of a supposed invasion were dismissed by the United Nations, citing Greece's fight against the Greek Communist rebels, who enjoyed Albanian support. The official name of that operation is "Operation Pyrsos", not the "Albanian-Greek border incident" or the "August 1949 provocations".
Koçi (2018): The Balkan Wars (1912-1913), delineation of Albania's borders, the Corfu Protocol (1914), the Peace Conference in Paris (1920), the Italy-Greek War, the deportation of the Cham population (1944-1945), the Peace Conference in Paris (1946) and the earthly claims about the so called Northern Epirus, the involvement of the Albanian communist state in the Greek Civil War (1946-1949) and the August 1949 provocations organized by the Greek government over the territory of the Albanian state, are episodes of a long series of misunderstandings and hate between the two states and populations; ...
Comment: The only thing that the Albanian historian Koçi is saying here, is that there were allegedly some Greek provocations in August 1949; these though, happen to coincide with the aforementioned "Operation Pyrsos". It appears that in Albanian historiography, that Greek military operation is known as the "August 1949 provocations". I cannot find a single non-Albanian author who used this term.
Paravantes (2020): Shortly thereafter, following a discussion with Deputy Prime Minister Tsaldaris, the British chargé d'affaires informed the State Department that both the British and French governments believed that the Greek army was planning an attack on Albania. Contradicting statements by UK Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin in July, the British advised that the US should move quickly to prevent Greece from attacking Albania and noted that they had informed the Greeks that should a conflict with Albania be initiated, no military or diplomatic support could be guaranteed to them. In mid-August 1949, Tsaldaris again met with Bevin in Strasbourg to discuss international alternatives to Greek military intervention in Albania that would address the Albanians' continued assistance to Greek communist forces. Bevin said that if the communist forces continued to retreat into Albania and to launch attacks from that country, regardless of whether the Albanian forces were actually taking part, the incident would cease to be a Greek issue and would move in the international sphere of aggression by one state against another. He suggested that the matter be taken up in the United Nations, with Britain and the United States leading the action against Albania.
Comment: As User:Pikavoom wrote above, it seems that plans or talks of a possible invasion did indeed exist, but this never actually happened due to objections by the UK and US. Could some of the clashes between the Greek Government troops and the Greek rebels have taken place near or on the Greek-Albanian border? Sure they could have, but this was due to the constant retreat of the Greek rebel forces behind the Albanian border. Again, this is officially known as "Operation Pyrsos", and its aim was to eliminate the remaining strongholds of the Greek rebels in Gramos and Vitsi; at the Greek-Albanian border.
Demetrios1993 (talk) 03:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Merge per Spiderone and Demetrios1993. The article already exists under the more precise title "Operation Pyrsos". Having two articles about the same subject, isn't helpful. The "Albanian-Greek border incident" is a generic and ambiguous title which not only lacks precision such as a date or another type of qualifier like how it was done elsewhere, i.e. 2020 Greek–Turkish border crisis, but also this is not how the sources do call it. Edit: I checked thoroughly the Wikipedia Project and my findings confirm my expectations: The historic operations/incidents across Wikipedia got their articles named accordingly with the sources and for clarity. An article with an ambiguous title like this one, is not in line with Wikipedia's standard practices and only serves as a WP:POVFORK to the other article. Edit 2: Changing my vote from Delete to Merge, as I have noticed that the article has been expanded further in meantime, citing unreliable sources in some instances; if the article is to be Merged instead of deleted, then the unreliable or non-secondary sources, will have to be removed or replaced with ones that meet Wikipedia's criteria for WP:RS. The last thing we need here in dealing with POVFORK articles such as this one, is to deteriorate the original article's quality by adding dubious sources or primary sources reflecting the Communist propaganda which has no place in Wikipedia. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:15, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Operation Pyrsos. Demetrios1993 has analysed the historiography. Some of this might usefully be added to the article. A redirect from Greek provocations of 1949 might also be merited, if that is what Albanian historiography calls it. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep there are many sources in Albanian about the clashes, a delete or a merge are not warranted. I used a long article from Gazeta Shqip which reproduces the official reports of Albania in August of 1949, but more can be written based on the same source and other populations. Durraz0 (talk) 18:28, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having many sources in Albanian, doesn't really rebut the fact that what Albanian historiography calls the "August 1949 provocations", is a reference to what the rest of the world knows as "Operation Pyrsos"; thus, the nominated article is essentially a WP:POVFORK of the latter. That is the reason you cannot find anything about the "August 1949 provocations" in publications by non-Albanian authors; it's because it is known by another name. It's also no coincidence that both the "August 1949 provocations" and "Operation Pyrsos" began on August 2, and that both lasted until the end of the month. Furthermore, the newspaper article by Gazeta Shqip isn't an ideal source, as it is a newspaper article (a publication with a focus on military history would be more preferable per WP:RSCONTEXT) written by an obscure individual named Darsnor Kaloçi (is he a historian?) who reproduced primary sources, such as articles by Bashkimi and Zëri i Popullit, which at the time served as propaganda organs for the Party of Labour of Albania. But regardless of that, he essentially confirms that the reason Greece attacked in August 1949, was in order to eliminate the remaining strongholds of the Greek partisans in northern Greece; but since they also had bases inside Albanian territory, some of the fighting spilled beyond the borders as well. He also confirmed that in Albanian historiography and the propaganda of the communist regime before the 1990s, this Greek operation was known as "Provocations of August 1949". Demetrios1993 (talk) 06:10, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Due to many sources that this event happened,it deserves its own article Wilhelm ii0 (talk) 18:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There plenty of sources, which support the claim, that an attack by the greek army happend, thus I don't see a reason for the deletion of the article. Karadakli230 (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Operation Pyrsos, as it is now apparent that this is a WP:POVFORK of it, and i believe that some of the existing content would be useful for it. However, i only support the inclusion of content that is based on reliable secondary sources, without giving undue weight to minor aspects; per WP:BALANCING. Per WP:SOURCEDEF, we also have to be very careful about the credentials of the authors we use, as well as WP:RSEDITORIAL. Demetrios1993 (talk) 09:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge The content should definitely stay, however a significant restructure is need. The way that the article is written, it reads as though the incident was one protracted event whereby Greece attempted to invade Albania from 2 August-5 September 1949. However this is incorrect, in reality this was multiple border clashes occurring as isolated incidences, rather than a combined campaign. The page may stay as is if the original contributors want to completely restructure it, however a merge to Operation Pyrsos would create less work and make sense, given that they overlap. ElderZamzam (talk) 01:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per WP:POVFORK and the points raised by Demetrios1993, which have not been rebutted. Khirurg (talk) 05:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. There are many sources which speak on the subject matter, treating it as a separate event from the larger Operation Pyrsos, which largely took place within the borders of Greece. Articles of this type are not at all uncommon in Wikipedia, with there being several articles on border incidents including Albanian-Yugoslav, Taliban-Iran/Pakistan, Israel-Syria, China-India etc. This should not be an exception. I will expand the article more, and would appreciate if it is not prematurely deleted without consensus.Alltan (talk) 09:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • But why is it that only Albanian sources are talking about the August 1949 provocations? If it was indeed a different event, you would expect to find non-Albanian authors as well, talking about the August 1949 provocations. Also, why is it that no Albanian author is using the term "Operation Pyrsos" to denote a separate contemporaneous event against the Greek communists, if it is indeed viewed as a separate event? Personally, i haven't found an Albanian source that talks about "Operation Pyrsos". Furthermore, concerning the expansion of the Albanian-Greek border incident, i have to repeat again the need to use reliable secondary sources by credible authors. The current version rests too much on Albanian primary sources and newspaper/magazine articles by obscure authors. I am specifically referring to the following three references; source 1, source 2, source 3. What are the credentials of Përparim Halili, Jorgo Qirici, and Dashnor Kaloçi? In the case of a "merge", most of this content would have to be removed; i was actually thinking of a separate section that would deal specifically with the August 1949 events from the point of view of Albania, but only if it could be supported by scholarly material. The only reason that would justify a separate article in my opinion, would be if it was large enough, to the point that a "merge" would cause undue weight concerns (WP:SPINOFF); but again, its content would have to be based on reliable secondary sources. Even though the size of the nominated article is currently large enough when compared to the current state of Operation Pyrsos (it can be expanded more), it is unfortunately mostly based on the three aforementioned questionable sources. So, my advice would be to try and find reliable scholarly sources, and if they are detailed enough, then i wouldn't have a problem with a "keep". Believe me, the last thing i want is to have to deal with undue weight and content disputes after a "merge". Demetrios1993 (talk) 13:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • First of all I don't get the whole replying to nearly every "Keep" vote that gets on here. I understand there are good intentions, but it just gets TL;DR after a while. Now besides that, I will make it clear that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a source being Albanian. They can absolutely be used just as much as any other RS. The authors being Albanian does in fact not make it fail RS, nor does it make them questionable (but yes there are non-Albanian sources that talk about the matter). Further on, the source I added is by Jorgo Qirici, an Albanian army lieutenant (might be an ethnic Greek according to some FB posts of him) who writes for the official Military Magazine of the Albanian army. Another thing, the whole focus on Operation Pyrsos being the wider operation under which this happened might not be correct, as the quote I added by Papagos specifically separates the Grammos and Vitsi operation from the Albanian one. But even if that is not the case, just like this article may be a further expanded version of Pyrsos, so is operation Pyrsos just a part of the wider Greek civil war. But we obviously separate the latter, since there is need for a more specialized article to delve into the specific theatres of war which took place concurrently to each other. We also do this since there are multiple sources on the topic. As far as I can see the operation Pyrsos article is much smaller and delves into the theme far, far less than the current article. And I can tell you, there are many, many more sources on this subject. Just need time to add them all.Alltan (talk) 19:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also Dashnor Kaloci has done some excellent investigative work into the matter. I had not checked him out before but will most definately use him.Alltan (talk) 19:07, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • AfDs are meant for constructive on-topic discussions, and commenting under "votes" or recommended courses of action is a typical practice of this procedure per WP:DISCUSSAFD. There is nothing irregular about it. Second, i never said or implied that just because a source is by an Albanian author, this affects its reliability. My reference to Albanian and non-Albanian sources, has to do with trying to understand if the "August 1949 provocations", as an event, is to be found only in Albanian historiography, or others as well. Now you claim that there are non-Albanian sources that talk about the event. Which are those? Concerning Papagos' quote, even if true (i haven't managed to verify it), it is already established above that plans or talks of a possible invasion did indeed exist, but this never actually happened due to objections by the UK and US. Even the UN dismissed these claims. What seems to have happened are isolated incidents as a result of the broader offensive against the Greek communists, who were actually present on both sides of the border; this is even indicated by the term "August 1949 provocations" that is used to describe them in Albanian historiography, as opposed to "August 1949 invasion". As for the use of separate articles to describe certain aspects of a single event in more detail, i already told you that i am perfectly fine with spinoff subarticles, but only if such details are supported by reliable scholarly material, and we are not dealing with a WP:POVFORK. The assessment of primary sources (affiliated with the Communist Party of Albania) by individuals such as Jorgo Qirici and Dashnor Kaloçi should be viewed with extreme caution. Being an Albanian army lieutenant or investigative journalist doesn't automatically make you into a specialist or recognized expert on the topic; non-authoritative statements cannot be presented as facts per WP:RS. If there are many sources on the subject, it shouldn't be that difficult to find detailed scholarly sources. Demetrios1993 (talk) 08:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • The articles' title is "Albanian-Greek border incident" not "August 1949 provocations". The events happened and there are sources which speak about it. Them being part of Albanian historiography does not somehow make them unreliable. I will add historiographical sources to the article as well, and will say I am feeling rather rushed with it, since you immediately went to AfD it instead of say opening a talk page discussion. The article is not a POV fork. Pyrsos as an article describes Greek monarchists fighting Greek communists. This Article describes Greek monarchists fighting Albanian border guards. A POV-fork would be writing an article describing Operation Pyrsos from a Greek communist POV, something which this is absolutely not. Your original arguments about there only being 2 sources have been adressed, the copyrighted image was removed and the article is currently in the process of being improved. The more I read up on it, it seems that these events spanned an area from Devoll down to Finiq, almost the entire Greek-Albanian border. I have added a source which says ::In fact , that had already happened in August 1949 , when Greek military forces entered Albanian territory in was subsequently seen in Tirana as an effort to establish the Greek chauvinist claims on Korça and Gjirokastra. 13 Days later the UN's special committee published a supplementary report , which would de facto justify the Greek intervention, concluding that Greece should not be expected to tolerate the Albanian support for regime change in Greece". Its an English source, published by Hurst. Alltan (talk) 14:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
          • The title that was chosen by Wilhelm ii0, who created the article, is "Albanian-Greek border incident", but that's not how it is known in Albanian historiography. Again, i never said anything about Albanian historiography being unreliable. I said that primary and non-scholarly sources should be treated with extreme caution. As for whether this is a WP:POVFORK of Operation Pyrsos, describing events from the point of view of communist Albania. The incidents that are described are contemporaneous to Operation Pyrsos, and in the same location; the broader area of Grammos. Also, most of the content is ultimately based on primary sources that were affiliated with the Communist Party of Albania. For example, articles by Bashkimi and Zëri i Popullit, which at the time served as propaganda organs for the Communist Party of Albania, or documents by its defense ministry that are used by Jorgo Qirici. Furthermore, Operation Pyrsos wasn't just limited within Greek borders, and it didn't just involve Greek governmental and communist forces; communist Albania actively supported the latter, and the fighting had spilled within Albanian territory as well. Dashnor Kaloçi wrote the following:
Po kështu edhe mali i Gramozit dhe zona të tjera në brendësi të kufirit shtetëror në zonën e Korçës dhe Kolonjës, ishin kthyer në baza të ushtrisë partizane greke të gjeneralit Marko Vafjadhis dhe aty ishin ngritur edhe disa spitale ushtarake ku kuroheshin dhe mjekoheshin partizanët grekë. Si rezultat i gjithë këtyre, të cilat Athina zyrtare e asaj kohe i konsideronte ndërhyrje zyrtare në punët e brendshme të saj, në gushtin e vitit 1949, ajo i sulmoi forcat partizane greke deri në pozicionet e tyre të fundit, në malin e Gramozit, duke i ndjekur ata edhe brenda territorit shqiptar, ku partizanët grekë u tërhoqën për t'u shpëtuar sulmeve shkatërrimtare të forcave qeveritare greke.
While military historian Jonathan House, wrote the following:
Their hopes to hold out until winter were dashed when the government launched Operation Pyrsos (Torch) in August 1949. ... On the 25th, the GNA [Greek National Army] moved rapidly to seal off Grammos from neighboring Albania. The next day, the Albanian dictator Enver Hoxha followed Tito's lead, halting artillery fire from inside his country and announcing that anyone crossing the border would be interned. Although he did not attempt to disarm the DAG [Democratic Army of Greece] troops, he did threaten to cut off food supplies if they returned to Greece. By the end of the month, all resistance had ceased in the Grammos Mountains, leaving the GNA in possession of 40 field guns, 600 machine guns, and 200 mortars, as well as 1,000 dead DAG fanatics. The Greek Civil War virtually ended with Operation Pyrsos.
Even the quote (it wasn't copied accurately, and 13 is a reference number) you shared above by Albanian author Paulin Kola (2003), corroborates all these. On the other hand, Jorgo Qirici (an Albanian army lieutenant) that you used to expand the article, doesn't even acknowledge such support and treats it as fiction. As for the discussed events spanning an area from Devoll down to Finiq; not really. You are obviously referring to a single incident with a plane that Jorgo Qirici wrote about. However, that plane was taking off from Corfu, and was simply being used for reconnaissance up to the area of Grammos; it was passing through Finiq, because its base was in Corfu. In any case, i understand that at this point a "merge" would only cause undue weight issues; however, this doesn't negate some of the aforementioned issues. Demetrios1993 (talk) 08:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The events being contemporaneous and related doesn't mean one must be a fork of the other. And yes, the Albanians had supported the Greek communist rebels, something which was often used as a pretext for the attacks which happened within Albania. Jorgo Qirici's article was published in Revista Ushtarake in 2016, the official military magazine of Albania. Any particular view of his should be compared and juxtaposed with other sources. On the plane incident, it was intercepted and downed after simply violating Albanian airspace in the midst of heated skirmishes and an ongoing escalation on the border. It's incidents like this which have caused Albanian sources to refer to the events as provocations. Alltan (talk) 13:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I already explained why this is a WP:POVFORK. Furthermore, a legitimate WP:SPINOFF would at the very least treat these incidents as part of the broader Operation Pyrsos, which is even corroborated by Dashnor Kaloçi. As for Jorgo Qirici's article being published in Revista Ushtarake in 2016, you are mistaken. Your citation is actually a supposed reproduction of an article by Jorgo Qirici in Revista Ushtarake, published by www.radiokosovaelire.com on 4 February 2016; this date doesn't pertain to the publication of the actual article. And even if such an article was published by Revista Ushtarake, it doesn't make it reliable. Reliability can be affected by the type of the work, the publisher, and the creator of the work, whom in this case is an Albanian army lieutenant without any academic credentials, citing primary sources from the defence ministry of communist Albania. Last, the heated skirmishes happened in the broader area of Grammos, and were directly linked to the offensive of Operation Pyrsos; so was the incident with the plane apparently, which despite its violation, was used for reconnaissance up to the area of Grammos. Demetrios1993 (talk) 05:32, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Per the excellent argumentation of Alltan. The original AfD request was based on the fact that the article had only two sources, one being a primary source. The article has since been expanded with new credible sources. The content is now clearly worthy of having its own article. Furthermore, I wanted to emphasize the fact that the credibility of a source should not be based on the ethnicity of its author. Also, the copyrighted picture was removed so this has nothing to do with the deletion or merge of the article. Ahmet Q. (talk) 20:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I see no reason why this article cannot stand alone; as explained by Alltan, specialised articles are required for different theatres of war, and indeed, there is an abundancy of sources that can be used to further expand this article. To me, it would seem that a merge into Operation Pyrsos would downplay the content of the current article - it will minimalise the importance of the content in this article and the reality of the events. What I am trying to say, is that it will mask the defeat of the Greeks by Albanian forces, which is something I believe may have motivated the push to initially delete (and upon realising that it's not right, merge) this article - the historical reality portrayed by this article is simply disliked. Now, that aside, there's plenty of sources that can be used, such as [[3]] (pg. 258) among many others. Like Alltan stated, time is needed to find them all. Rome wasn't built in a day, and a hasty move to try and delete it then later merge it serves no real benefit at all whatsoever. Botushali (talk) 04:50, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • As explained to Alltan, there is nothing wrong with spinoff subarticles to present certain aspects of an event in more detail, but as Pikavoom also said above, this appears more as a WP:POVFORK of Operation Pyrsos, describing events from the point of view of communist Albania. It's no coincidence that you cannot find anything about it in non-Albanian sources, nor any mention of Pyrsos in Albanian sources; it is the same event. The reason that no Greek communists are mentioned in the official Albanian narrative of the time, in relation to that event, probably has to do with the fact that their presence and activity on Albanian territory, as well as the support that they received from the Albanian state, was all part of a secret operation known as "Aksioni 10"; this is mentioned by Dashnor Kaloçi who was discussed above, and who also says that the narrative regarding the "provocations of August 1949" has affected the historical memory of several generations of Albanians, and has thus become part of Albanian historiography. As for the Albanian book you shared, it doesn't provide any details, just the following:
Në vitin 1949 Greqia ndërmori provokacione të vazhdueshme kundër Shqipërisë. Ndër to, provokacioni më i rëndë ishte ai i 2 gushtit 1949 në sektorin e kufirit Bozhigrad-Bilisht, ku njësi të ushtrisë monarkiste greke u futën në territorin shqiptar. Luftimet vazhduan disa ditë , deri në tërheqjen e plotë të forcave greke. Pala greke e justifikoi këtë veprim, gjoja, me mbështetjen që Shqipëria u jepte forcave komuniste greke që vepronin në territorin grek.
The events that began on August 2 and lasted for several days, are known as Pyrsos I; the first phase of the operation. According to non-Albanian historiography, the aim of the Greek governmental forces was to carry out sporadic deceptive attacks in the area of Grammos (divided between Greece and Albania), in order to divert the attention of the Greek communist forces and let them think that the main attack was to happen there. Demetrios1993 (talk) 08:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the original arguments of Demetrios for merge were correct, but it's also evident that in the last few days the article has been expanded to almost 20k. The topic fulfills WP:N criteria and publications about it seem to be increasing in recent years. The article about Operation Pyrsos is ~6k. A merge wouldn't work on a technical level but also in terms of content as there is enough material for a standalone article for the events on August 2-6 on the border. There is still difficulty in finding non-Albanian sources for events which cover the 1945-1990 period of Albania as there was little contact with the outside world and subjects like this one weren't part of historical research until a part of the archives of Socialist Albania was declassified. I think that the article in the next phase should include more sources which will reflect the "Greek version" of the events.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge: Those minor incidents occurred as part of Albania's support of the Greek communist guerrillas. There was even a Greek prisoner's centre located in southern Albania. I also wonder what makes 'radiokosovailire' a historical source (obviously an extremist site per its name). Alexikoua (talk) 02:54, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK, this is actually getting ridiculous now. It seems certain editors here enjoy throwing around the term "extremist" for Albanian sources. 'Radiokosovailire' translates to 'Free/Independent Kosova Radio', how does that name denote extremism? When you talk about extremist sites, you think of sites that incite violence, terror and other forms of extremism, like ISIS recruitment websites, not 'Free/Independent Kosova Radio' hahahaha... Botushali (talk) 17:36, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We need to follow wp:RS when we use sources to support our articles. This specific source doesn't meet neither wp:ACADEMIC nor wp:SECONDARY, not even wp:HISTRS.Alexikoua (talk) 03:52, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
RadioKosovaelire is not the publisher, but a site which has republished an article by colonel Jorgo Qirici in Revista Ushtarake, the official scientific journal of the Albanian army. It obviously reflects the Albanian point of view about the events, which means that the article requires the Greek point of view as well. The fact that the article reflects a WP:POV doesn't make it less WP:RS because for military events the official narratives of the involved factions are necessary for writing relevant articles.--Maleschreiber (talk) 06:06, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt if a journal, especially a scientific one can ever publish a text without any supportive bibliography or a single inline reference. We have plenty of retired and active Colonels writing down their version of history and this doesn't make them necessary wp:RS like in this case.Alexikoua (talk)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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