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Journal of Controversial Ideas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I'm going to be bold and close this discussion as an uninvolved party. It's getting pretty uncivil, one editor has already been blocked because of it, and there is not even anything at stake. Tercer (talk) 19:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I've started seeing citations to the Journal of Controversial Ideas popping up on articles about social science and the humanities and they're being used to support some pretty fringey statements such as the assertion that bias between political ideologies is a greater problem in the United States than racism. I reviewed a few of their more philosophical articles and found the scholarship lacking at best to be blunt. The journal is also associated with the fringe Effective Altruism movement. I wanted to make sure the board was on notice that, despite this journal being "peer reviewed" it is, in fact, quite fringe and should be approached with apprehension as a source. Simonm223 (talk) 13:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. It's a very poor journal. They published a paper claiming bestiality is "morally defensible". They have also published a paper written by an anonymous pedophile. A dodgy and very unreliable journal. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Take it to RSN? Doug Weller talk 22:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
It's a fringe journal. I notified the fringe board to be alert for it. That's all.Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
I think Doug was recommending that maybe RSN discussions could identify it for inclusion in WP:RSPS as a no-go source (which is probably a good thing to do for anything but WP:ABOUTSELF type stuff). jps (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't think it is a fringe journal. It does publish controversial ideas - hence the name - but controversial ideas are not necessarily fringe topics. Peter Singer and Jeff McMahan are both respected figures in philosophy (controversial figures, but nevertheless respected). There is a question as to reliability, as the authors can choose to publish under a psuedonym, but it is peer-reviewed and is not predatory, so I think the reliability will be situational, as the main use I can see for it is to reference ideas of authors when those authors are not using psuedonyms. - Bilby (talk) 01:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
The journal is fairly well-panned by the relevant academic communities. It's basically a journal for papers that were rejected by others. Not great. jps (talk) 16:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
That article predates the first issue by 3 years; I don't know much about this journal and whether it's reliable or not but using such an old article to claim it's 'well-panned' by academics is disingenuous. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm not really sure what calling effective altruism "fringe" is supposed to mean. We generally use that term to refer to ideas contradicted by the preponderance of evidence as published in reliable sources. Effective altruism is a philosophical/philanthropic movement that does not propose any scientific laws or models. Partofthemachine (talk) 14:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Interesting journal! The contents are not unusually fringe for a philosophy journal. Philosophers love to make controversial arguments, as making arguments is what it is all about. Some fringe opinions are expressed, but also some fringe opinions are demolished (see the article by Alan Sokol for example). I don't think this journal warrants special general treatment but, as for every journal, each citation is subject to its own consideration. Zerotalk 08:32, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that I'm well-read in philosophy. And as someone who is quite well-read in the subject I would assert that, despite its popularity among foolish silicon valley types, Effective Altruism is a fringe philosophical position. It's the association of the journal with EA combined with its regular publication of explicitly racist / "race realist" and authors who try to de-center racism from discourses on bias in anglosphere politics, which makes me call it a fringe journal. Simonm223 (talk) 12:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
And as for Alan Sokal, most of his attack on post-structuralism simply belied the shallowness of his reading on the subject. Although I do know that, among people who aren't familiar with the subject, he has a certain cachet. Simonm223 (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm curious. How do you see effetcive altruism as inherently connected with the journal? A search of the journal for the term didn't result in any hits. The best I could find was an article about Self-Sacrificing Altruism. - Bilby (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Its founders are also among the founders of the EA movement and one of the key purposes of the journal are to try and launder some of EA's weird post-utilitarian ideas and eugenicism into an academia that is increasingly hostile to EA. Simonm223 (talk) 12:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Ok. So it is mostly conjecture, then? I'm not seeing that as a major concern. - Bilby (talk) 12:46, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
"Zoophilia Is Morally Permissible" written by a pseudonym [1]. No academic journal would publish offensive garbage like this. This is as fringe as it gets. Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that the person behind that pseudonym was James Lindsay or one of his pals trying to perpetuate their Sokal Square hoax again. But, yeah, the journal's tendency to publish articles pseudonymously is certainly one mark against their credibility. Simonm223 (talk) 13:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Actually I don't need to keep in mind what you are well-read in, just as you are free to not care about my qualifications. "Effective altruism" is mentioned in only one article that doesn't rely on it, so I don't see that as an argument. (Now I see "eugenicism"; I think that's simply ridiculous.) This journal deliberately aims for "controversial" analyses. Actually, very few philosophers would disagree that critically analysing social norms is one of the duties of their profession. I think that that's a good thing; opinions that challenge our own should be welcomed not suppressed. Zerotalk 13:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a difference between "suppressing" ideas and "rejecting" them from publication. "Do better at scholarship" is not censorship. jps (talk) 16:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Rejection is an academic form of suppression. Yes, bad scholarship should be rejected, but if the reason for rejection is that it includes controversial ideas that is censorship. Zerotalk 01:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Most people who have their work rejected for publication believe that they are doing good scholarship. Occasionally, they are, but it requires independent confirmation of such to verify it. Otherwise, the presumption is that the independent editors and reviewers who reject a publication are doing so in good faith. It is not our place to claim otherwise. jps (talk) 01:27, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
"Controversial ideas" is just the name of the journal. You cannot conclude from it that the articles in the journal have been rejected by other journals because they were controversial. Maybe they were rejected because they contained mistakes? If the journal were called "Journal of mistaken ideas and bad science", would the earlier rejection of the articles in it by other journals also constitute suppression? --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I didn't conclude anything like that so I don't see your point. Rejection due to error or incompetence is obviously not censorship, but rejection because the editor doesn't like the author's politics (or similar) obviously is. This is only of hypothetical relevance because I don't know how many of the papers in JCI were previously rejected elsewhere, nor what the reasons were. Zerotalk 09:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
If you did not conclude that, then you were not talking about the journal but about some hypothetical case, therefore you were using this page as a forum. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
Well, unless it was an academic journal dedicated to the exploration of controversial ideas, I guess. Such a journal probably would explore extremes of morality.
I know the author of that article. It was not Lindsay. It is extreme, but so was A Modest Proposal and many others that tried to get people to think about logical consequences of arguments. Proposing controversial ideas in a journal specifically dedicated to exploring controversial ideas doesn't seem fringe in itself. - Bilby (talk) 13:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, its attempt at satire was as obvious as it was tedious. But, again, publishing satire as if it were scholarship is a good example of fringe behaviour. Simonm223 (talk) 13:18, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
I think we have a clear difference of opinion as to what constitutes fringe. - Bilby (talk) 13:28, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't know if you know about the history of this journal. Basically it all started when a far-right academic Noah Carl lost his job. Peter Singer and Jeff McMahon [2], [3] rushed to defend Carl in so called defence of academic freedom. Shortly after this, the journal was founded. Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Since the journal was announced before Noah Carl was appointed, there is a chronological problem with your claim. Zerotalk 13:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
There is no chronological issue. Noah Carl's university had already received 2 months of complaints before that Guardian piece had been written. This isn't in public record, but the first group of researchers to complain about Noah Carl were from an animal ethics journal, I know this because I know the researchers. Basically Carl is an anti-vegan who opposes animal ethics, a group of researchers did some research into him and discovered he has strong alt-right connections. This is old news so it doesn't really matter now but back in 2018 I was contacted to complain about Carl but I declined. I am in contact with a lot of the people who publish on animal ethics, so I am aware about what goes on. Some of the academics involved in animal ethics are usually criticized on social media platforms and they had enough of this. Noah Carl is currently a writer for a white nationalist magazine so he has never changed his views.
You wrote "Basically it all started when a far-right academic Noah Carl lost his job". I showed this to be a false claim. Actually the journal was announced months before Carl lost his job. Why not just admit you got it wrong? Zerotalk 01:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I am well aware the journal was announced before Carl lost his job but the main decision to go ahead and publish the journal was Carl's sacking. Both Singer and Francesca Minerva described his sacking (incorrectly) as an assault on academic freedom, it was what fuelled them to go ahead with the journal. Minerva had been talking about launching the journal for about 8 years before but nothing materialized. In the past I have been sent a lot of emails relating to the formation of the journal, it was all centred around Carl. Carl made over £100,000 from donations that he received in early 2020. Some of this money was given to launch the Journal of Controversial Ideas. The journal has a lot of dark secrets. The second person to author an anonymous paper in their journal was this banned Wikipedia user [4]. He submitted his paper to them back in May 2020. A lot of far-right influencers like Steve Sailer were originally very enthusiast about the journal thinking they could use it to promote racialism. However, the journal has published an article defending beastility and another by a pedophile so the reputation of the journal has been damaged. Psychologist Guy (talk) 03:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Francesca Minerva the other co-founder of Journal of Controversial Ideas also defended Carl [5]. If there was no drama involving Noah Carl, the journal would have never been founded. If you look at early reports of the journal, the Noah Carl drama was always mentioned [6], [7] but has never been officially connected to the journal. BTW one of Carl's racist supporters is a banned Wikipedia troll Jonathan Kane. He was one of the first people to publish a paper in the Journal of Controversial Ideas. A lot of the people involved with the journal hold far-right views. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Another red flag for me is that Nigel Biggar is on editorial board [8]. He has spoken on white nationalists podcasts [9]. Noah Carl was a speaker at an event hosted by Biggar [10] back in 2019. The most disturbing thing about this journal is that they have published a paper by an anonymous pedophile [11]. They have not added any criticisms of the paper. The Wikipedia article is currently highly biased in favour of the journal. As an IP noted on the talk-page. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
I'd like to improve the article itself as was proposed but very few outlets are willing to discuss or touch the Journal with a ten-foot pole unless they've got some words of glowing praise to offer, as did a writer for City Journal last year: [12] Appreciate if there's anything you find that can help balance out the viewpoint. Reconrabbit 19:04, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
City Journal is a Manhattan Institute mouthpiece generally unreliable for anything but serving as rightwing agitprop. jps (talk) 01:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
That's part of my point here—there aren't any reliable sources past the journal's launch in 2021 out there that we can use to support any statements about it that I've found. Reconrabbit 02:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I list a few below, but, indeed, the discussion is scarce for obvious reasons. jps (talk) 02:07, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts in finding these. I didn't look at The Conversation at the time since it was from around the same timeframe as the rest, but I will look into the rest if they are viable to add to the discussion on the article itself. My academic institution doesn't subscribe to too much outside of the physical sciences. Reconrabbit 02:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
They don't help much. I've read them, and they were overstated as examples. I don;t see why they were offered.
  • [13] Makes one mention of the journal in passing, and while the paper disagrees with what it describes as Singer's stand on activism, is says nothing of value about the journal.
  • [14] Looks briefly at one article published in the journal, which the author recommends reading.
  • [15] The link doesn't work for me, but from the ISSN it appears to be a New Scientist paper. The only thing I have found so far in New Scientist is [16], which is positive.
  • [17] Does discuss the journal, but is already included in the article here. - Bilby (talk) 09:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I see. Thanks for looking into it more in depths - I had my doubts regardless since the citation numbers were very low and the authorship was narrower than is ideal on all of these. We'll have to live with the current state of affairs; maybe at the least cut down on quotes from the editors of the journal, since it's getting close to "mission statement" type information. Reconrabbit 13:28, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm not overly impressed by arguments based on guilt-by-association, and it seems that this gets down to not agreeing with the controversial ideas that have been published (which seems unsurprising given that they are controversial ideas) and not liking some of the people who are not directly involved with the journal. Anyway, I still can't see how this makes it fringe, although it is clear that the journal has published fringe ideas. The real question is what to do with it. I'm not seeing any inherent reliability issues, given that the only use of it for referencing seems to me to be to reference that either ideas exist or that people have expressed certain ideas, and given that it is a peer-reviewed academic journal it seems as reliable for those claims as any other. Is it being used for statements of fact beyond those? - Bilby (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
When the general assessment of independent academics say it's not a good source, we should believe them. So far, I have seen those who are affiliated with the journal praise it. I have not seen anyone independent of it have much more than harsh criticism. jps (talk) 01:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Where can we verify your claim about "independent academics"? Zerotalk 01:15, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I can find a number of them: [18], [19], [20], [21] You will find, of course, that WP:NFRINGE applies where most of this sort of fringe argumentation is ignored. jps (talk) 02:06, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I think it is a misuse of WP:FRIND to discount en masse the fact that 60 academics, many quite notable, have voluntary agreed to be on the editorial board. These are not proponents of fringe theories, which WP:FRIND is about, and the case of fringe has to be established before that argument can even be made. Actually, like every time a journal is accessed for reliability, the quality of the editorial board is one of the primary considerations. Regarding your examples, the first link goes to a library log-in page. The second describes the journal but does not especially criticise it. The third takes one paper in JCI seriously enough to spend most of the time discussing it and the most severe criticism is "I am not completely convinced by all of the views and findings of Abbot et al. (2023) ... but my metaphysical foundations have been challenged by them." No criticism of the journal in general is present. The fourth one criticises the journal's willingness to publish under pseudonyms, but since it appeared before the journal published anything at all it can't be taken as a wider criticism of the journal content. So you haven't answered my challenge. Meanwhile, here is another academic defending the journal after its first issue. Zerotalk 02:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Eh... you're just going to play a WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT game, it seems. Cool... I've seen it from ideologically driven anti-wokeists like yourselfwhat your rhetoric seems to indicate you are championing before. In any case, the members of this editorial board really are proponents of fringe theories. The journal intentionally publishes fringe theories. That's their raison d'etre -- they just don't call them "fringe theories" they call them "controversial ideas". Also, the "quality of the editorial board" is not the primary metric for determining the reliability of a journal. The extent to which the publications are taken seriously with independent citations is the mark and we aren't there yet by any means. To the extent that independent relevant scholars have noticed (as in the "defense of merit in science"), the journal is basically scoffed at. The entire endeavor is a delicious exercise in projective "grievance studies" which I find humorous, but it is entirely unsuitable for Wikipedia given the blatant and laughable ideological bent. But it is still early, it is true. The best argument for excising citations to this journal in Wikipedia is that we are necessarily behind the curve. We should wait for the laudatory citations or the full-throated takedowns to come. Either the thing will peter out in the way of many failed new ventures (as referenced from the New Scientist article -- sorry about the library login link) or it will end up referred to with the same rolled eyes as Medical Hypotheses or Physics Essays. I'm happy to bet which will be the case. Shall we put a timeframe of, say, 10 years and name an independent panel to judge who wins the bet? jps (talk) 03:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
By the way, not surprising that Russell Blackford is a champion of this endeavor. His latest book was The Tyranny of Opinion: Conformity and the Future of Liberalism, which, in its middle parts, takes the same thoughtful "plural of anecdotes is data" approach to questions about Cancel Culture that does Yascha Mounk or Bari Weiss. Ideological battle lines: form! jps (talk) 03:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
"Controversial idea" is not necessarily equivalent to "fringe theory", because an idea might be a respectable position in at least one academic field, but also be controversial in society at large (or among "the intelligentsia", or university administrators, or whatever). Crossroads -talk- 04:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
@ජපස:(jps) The people who support anything will most likely be people who support that thing; there is no information content there. Your argument is also circular: if a topic is reprehensible, then the people who support it are reprehensible so the topic is reprehensible as proved by the people who support it. Meanwhile, the "reprehensible" label came not from them but from you and most of what you have written is your personal opinion of the topic. In contrast, I have not stated any opinion for or against the actual content of the journal except for asserting (because I know physics) that Sokol demolished a fringe theory. I don't believe that the reliability of a journal of opinions (as opposed to, say, a mathematics journal) depends on whether or not I agree with the opinions it publishes.
Miscellanea: "To the extent that independent relevant scholars have noticed (as in the "defense of merit in science"), the journal is basically scoffed at."—this is factually incorrect by the example you gave yourself. New Scientist: if the article you wished to point to is "Midnight musings" by Marc Abrahams, it is a tongue-in-check comment by the non-academic editor of "Annals of Improbable Research," and "Journal of Irreproducible Results".
Academic critique of the journal that I have been able to find is almost all focussed on the practice of anonymous authorship (currently 15% of all articles). A reasonable case could be made that we shouldn't use anonymous articles as sources, though the fact that they have gone through peer-review means that there is room for argument. Zerotalk 04:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
Since Abbot et al's "In Defense of Merit" was specifically brought up, I looked at the first 10 of Scholar's listing of 26 papers that cite it. [Note that the order in which Scholar lists citations is not fixed and you might see a different first 10.] One of the 10 articles (Sharma) doesn't seem to cite it at all. All of the rest cite it in the usual way that academic works are cited and all but possibly one (Johnson) cite it positively. Johnson cites it as an example of a protagonist in a debate and I couldn't quickly tell whether the author agrees with it. None of them accuse Abbot of any type of malfeasance and none of them commented on the journal at all. So the claim made about this example has no legs. Zerotalk 06:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
There was an RFC with Quillette [22] and the City Journal [23] in the past, it might be worth a user filing one about the Journal of Controversial Ideas so we can obtain a consensus about the reliability of the journal. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:02, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
This is not all that complicated. They deliberately position themselves as a venue for ideas outside the mainstream, or the scholarly consensus, or whatever one might call it. We, above all, present the scholarly consensus. So, to a first approximation, we don't really have a use for any publications there. XOR'easter (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure the published articles are that fringey for a philosophy journal. Seems a lot tamer than initial media reports made the journal out to be. Probably on a case by case basis it could be used if the author is an expert (if their identity is public). Zenomonoz (talk) 03:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Paracas Candelabra

The geoglyph itself isn't fringe, but recent additions are[ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paracas_Candelabra&action=history]

Suddenly this Peruvian geoglyph is being edited to claim it was made by "Lord Indra". 3 IPs add this, then a brand new editor adding copyvio, then another IP followed by an editor who's been here since 2009 but this is only their 65th edit. So I'm wandering into content edit-warring country myself trying to deal with this fringe as except for User:Discospinster I'm the only one reverting. Doug Weller talk 09:28, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

That article has some pretty noticeable issues even without the weirdness from the IPs and copyvios. Looking now, the history section cites not a single source for any of its statements. 50.234.188.27 (talk) 13:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, I've been looking hard for sources for months. Doug Weller talk 16:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Scott Wolter wants a lot of cash to reveal the secrets of the Oak Island mystery

Scott Wolter Says He Won't Reveal Oak Island Secrets without a Big TV Payday] Doug Weller talk 16:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully they won't pay up, and he'll keep his 'secrets' to himself, thus leaving Wikipedia with less credulous bullshit to deal with. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
I mean, they call it the "money pit" for a reason, I guess, just not then one we thought. Dumuzid (talk) 17:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Max Lugavere again

Max Lugavere has put out recent public statements on his Facebook and Twitter account telling his keto and paleo diet fan-base to edit his article because it is biased against him. We now have new IPs and accounts inserting a NPOV template on the article. This is a false consensus. I am not convinced this should be added only if we have a valid consensus decision on the talk-page. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Religious Fringe

Are sources that uncritically present an in-universe view of religious events reliable? For example:

  1. Sources saying that Jesus did raise Lazarus, rather than that Christian believe that Jesus raised Lazarus
  2. Sources saying that Muhammad traveled to Jerusalem in a single night on the back of the winged steed Burak, rather than that Muslims believe that he did
  3. Sources saying that an alien dictator committed genocide in Earths volcano's, rather than that Scientologists believe he did
  4. Sources saying that Mormon scripture originated in ancient times, rather than that Mormons believe it did

I don't believe they are; sources that push positions that have widely been discredited is a strong indication that they are unreliable. Further, it is an indication they are unreliable for the rest of the content in their work, such as on matters of faith that have received less coverage in serious sources.

However, I believe this position is somewhat controversial, so I want to see if I am alone in holding it, and if not how we can get it written down somewhere - perhaps on WP:RSP? BilledMammal (talk) 21:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Said sources should be treated as non-independent and hence to be used sparingly and not to demonstrate notability, IMO. There's a lot of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS about this versus other Christian and religious analysis, but we're not a theologic work; if sources independent of a church hierarchy isn't talking about stuff, it shouldn't be included, and if the only sources talking about it do so with an "in-universe" standpoint (analysis of the Lazarus story that asserts its truth) they should be discarded when crafting the overall structure of an article. Specifically to the LDS stuff it'd be best to get this discussed at RSN/listed at RSP because otherwise it's going to be a talk page/merge discussion/AfD piecemeal effort that's going to get nowhere. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 22:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Yeah I made this point a couple times and just got pushback from the same editors with claims that BYU/LDS authors are just as NPOV regarding LDS topics as non-adherents, and that a book by an adherent constitutes "mainstream secular attention" if it's published by a non-LDS publisher (and that having such a publisher transforms a non-independent source into an independent one!). JoelleJay (talk) 23:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
BYU is a very interesting case. On most matters, they are completely mainstream scholars, but their honor code means their scholars of religion and history don't have full academic freedom. On LDS history, they're Bob Jones, not Havard Divinity. Feoffer (talk) 08:27, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Given BYU biology prof Michael Whiting's statements on Native American genealogy, we might want to expand that list of fields lacking academic freedom... JoelleJay (talk) 11:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
As an attempt to draft an RfC on this, how does the following wording look?:

Sources that present an in-universe view of religious events should be considered reliable only for what adherents of the relevant religion believe, and should not be considered independent of the religion.

I'm concerned it may get shot down as too broad? BilledMammal (talk) 23:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
I think the first clause is OK, and the second is problematic and ought to be dropped because it tends to imply that outsider sources are independent, which is rather frequently not true (an awful lot of them are frankly adversarial). This isn't going to solve the notability issue, though. In @JoelleJay:'s examples, it seems to me that the problem is that these aren't important figures even within LDS theology, not that nobody outside the church has head of these people. And of course narratives taken from a single source need make it clear it's the source that's talking, a principle which applies to all texts, not just religious ones.
I looked at our article on the raising of Lazarus (which is actually a section of the article on Lazarus himself) and note that the narrative is entirely "sourced" to the KJV, which surely counts as a primary source on this. Be that as it may, the theological import is entirely sourced to believers. And that is as it should be; any outsider cited had better be sourcing reliable believer authorities in order to be credible. Mangoe (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't see that implication about outsider sources; it makes no comment on them, and their independence would need to be assessed separately. Can you explain further why you see otherwise?
I also think this will solve the notability issue, because if we assess these sources as either not being independent or not being reliable they won't count towards WP:GNG.
Looking at that article on Lazarus it seems to say he was risen by Jesus, not that Christians believe he was; I've added an NPOV tag. BilledMammal (talk) 23:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
BilledMammal, would you comment on an example here? The article Nahom came up on this noticeboard awhile back. It's probably a pretty important concept within Mormon scholarship, probably something that WP should cover, but once an individual editor goes out and creates an article like that the set of sources get pretty limited. There are a bunch of your "in universe" sources, and only Dan Vogel and Jerald and Sandra Tanner as "independent". Vogel is just a single footnote, and the Tanners are probably a good example of JoelleJay's "outsider" sources which should not be cited. S. Kent Brown does a fair job of laying out the problems and here he says what should be made very clear to the reader for that article:

For those who believe that Nephi’s narrative is authentically ancient, the possibility of a connection between the area of the NHM tribe in south Arabia and the Nahom of Nephi’s narrative is credible. For those who do not believe that the narrative of First Nephi authentically goes back to a record written in the early sixth century B.C., any proposed link will lack merit. It is a matter, in my view, of one’s beginning assumptions. Since I believe...

But that is just some post he made and the URL is expired. I doubt (but don't know for sure) if he would publish that remark in one of the journals in question, either it's just WP:BLUESKY or maybe not something he would say to the audience reading those publications.
For Nahom, to write the "excellent article" per jps below i think pretty much requires the "in universe" sources (and some allowance for original research). An Afd based on your GNG argument is probably unlikely to work. Maybe a merge to a parent article such as Proposed Book of Mormon geographical setting would be appropriate, but offhand that article looks to have quite a few problems itself. fiveby(zero) 16:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that the Wikipedia principles we already have outlined work fine (though it is absolutely clear to me that there are a lot of editors here -- even fairly well established ones -- that are confused by this). It is true that there are some articles on some religious beliefs which stray from best practices. We encounter them from time-to-time on this board and elsewhere. But best-practiced scholarship does not really lend itself to hard-and-fast principles. I have no doubt that it is entirely possible to write excellent articles on Mormon beliefs using many Mormon sources (yes, even scriptural or devotional ones!) with an appropriate framing provided by secondary and tertiary contextual commentary to establish WP:PROMINENCE, notability, and the like. This approach seems to have been lost at many of our articles on Mormonism in favor of a weird "Professor So-and-so at BYU says that this verse in the book of Mormon is about Jesus." Wikipedia should be documenting how widely held such beliefs are and what the consequences of such beliefs are. For example, Mitt Romney was only asked pointed questions about his beliefs a few times on the campaign trail and there is a fascinating thread to follow from that to declaration of the LDS church clarifying (or muddying the waters, according to some) what "strong drinks" were which coincided with a proliferation of self-made soda stations in Utah and now the Stanley cup fad, apparently. Wild stuff -- well documented by third-party sources. There are discussions of Mormon eschatology that sprung up around Mitt Romeny's presidency as well which provide a glorious way of describing how Mormons match and diverge from classic low church beliefs in the same. Oh, there is plenty of excellent article fodder to be had about these topics for Wikipedia. I think our fundamental principles let us know that this is a good approach to these subjects and, indeed, most subjects about religion. jps (talk) 23:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no doubt that it is entirely possible to write excellent articles on Mormon beliefs using many Mormon sources (yes, even scriptural or devotional ones!) with an appropriate framing provided by secondary and tertiary contextual commentary to establish WP:PROMINENCE, notability, and the like. This approach seems to have been lost at many of our articles on Mormonism in favor of a weird "Professor So-and-so at BYU says that this verse in the book of Mormon is about Jesus." Agreed with this. What we need is to ensure that these topics can be contextualized by non-adherent perspectives, both to comply with NPOV and FRINGE and to demonstrate notability through attention from independent sources. For the same reasons we can't write an article on an ayurveda or Scientology topic sourced only to reliably-published works by practitioners/adherents, we shouldn't be relying only on LDS authors for appraisal of LDS content or its broad notability. JoelleJay (talk) 00:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
So where would that leave transubstantiation? There are barely any sources which aren't religious, and the rest are histories of religious movements. It's importance is because of its importance in Catholicism and its general rejection in the rest of Christendom. It doesn't matter whether it's a subject of interest to anyone else.
Conversely, I think we can look at (for example) these obscure figures from the BoM and determine that, even within Mormon circles, they are unimportant. My notability test can be summed up as "why should I care?" and the article ideally should give such a reason. When someone writes an article on one of these figures and can't give more than a summary of the textual narrative, the "so what?" light starts blinking and I suspect that the passage has no import in actual Mormon religion. But I don't need non-Mormon sources for that; indeed, it would be Mormon sources that would sway my verdict, or at least sources citing Mormon sources. Mangoe (talk) 02:25, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
@Mangoe: You wrote: My notability test can be summed up as "why should I care?" and the article ideally should give such a reason. Based on this statement, I believe you have provided a very good notability test that can be applied generally. In the future, if I come across a Wikipedia article and find that the "so what?" light starts blinking, then it's time to start critically assessing sources in that article. Regards, Steve Quinn (talk) 03:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
What's wrong with sourcing to histories of religious movements? And again I think it's fine to source to Catholic scholars (even the actual church orgs can be used to the extent that any primary sources are allowed), there just has to be some broader, independent interest in the topic that treats it dispassionately. The concept of transubstantiation has been a central part of major historical events in human history and is well-documented and discussed by modern non-religious historians, as are the interpretations of and writings on it by Catholics hundreds of years ago. Those are both elements that provide additional distance between modern scholarship and straight exegesis of scripture, something that is much more lacking in new religious movements like LDS. JoelleJay (talk) 05:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
I agree with JoelleJay. New religious movements like LDS just don't have the scholarship that surrounds Catholicism (for example). Obviously, this due to the very short existence of LDS. I think sourcing to LDS's history as a religious movement make sense. Off-handedly, I think using non-LDS and non-adherent sources for this history are best. As an aside, I didn't know that transubstantiation has historical importance, nor did I know that it is discussed in modern scholarship. When I have come across transubstantiation I have thought of it as simple symbolic act and nothing more than that. I guess it is more interesting and somehow has more impact than a simple symbolic act. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 07:15, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
One problem to note, re: Mormonism, is that there are a lot of articles on characters from the Book of Mormon, many of which are of very questionable notability. It's one thing to have an article on Nephi, son of Lehi, who I gather is a key figure in the book and who seems to have attracted a fair bit of analysis—a lot of the sources in that article are Mormon-affiliated, but not all. It's another to have an article on Nephi, son of Helaman, whose article is nothing but a summary of the Book of Mormon narrative. A. Parrot (talk) 15:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
I actually tagged Nephi, son of Helaman for notability a while back... It was removed by this questionable edit[24] (the added source which allegedly supports notability is not independent so doesn't actually count towards notability... Just more bad scholarship from inside the walled garden). Thats a classic pattern in fringe topic area. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • There seems to be a lot of strawmanning in these discussions, with new religionists invoking a non-existent version of Wikipedia where Jesus is 'allowed' to have been resurrected, or Muhamed is 'allowed' to have flown on a horse. In fact, Wikipedia's (settled) religious article tend to split beliefs from scholarship; for example we even split Authorship of the Bible and Biblical inspiration as distinct articles. In other words, we say what adherents believe as one thing, and what scholars/historians say as another thing. The problem with the current Mormonism discussion is that some proponents seem to want to set intermingle, rather than separate, such aspects of the topic. So, for example they want Wikipedia to say that maybe Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, but maybe it was written by God. This is not good as encyclopedic, or any sort, or writing.
    As far as WP:FRINGE goes, when "what adherents believe" spills over into explicit claims made about the real world, Wikipedia will call out nonsense. It happens all the time with (for example) young earth creationism or faith healing. Bon courage (talk) 07:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    If religious material is presented with in text attribution (ie “adherents believe that…” or something similar) then a source written by a note-worthy adherent can be very reliable - as a primary source for that belief. What we need to look out for are authors who hold fringe beliefs within the religion. Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, there's that too. A lot of problems can be swerved by avoiding primary texts and relying on the WP:BESTSOURCES (surprise surprise!). Bon courage (talk) 13:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    Sure... but also almost certainly undue unless it gets mentioned by a secondary source, after all by definition their opinion isn't noteworthy unless a reliable independent secondary source find it worthy of note. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    Wikipedia is not a source that establishes truth on these matters. Notability is established by there being a number of reliable sources on the matter. In general NPOV policy helps guide through these kinds of claims. In general, attribution helps so that the claims rest on the sources, not wikipedia's voice. For these things, secondary sources, introductions from textbooks or even tertiary sources like handbooks help separate the views of the laity and scholars, which sometimes overlap and other times diverge. Scholarship fluctuates and is not static, and religious traditions also vary through time. Ramos1990 (talk) 01:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
    Wikipedia is a source that only reports in Wikipedia's voice the truth of these matters. If it is not correct, it should not be in Wikipedia's voice, should be attributed to the person who is making the claim, and explained that it is not true. jps (talk) 16:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • The answer to OP's question depends on context. Our reliable sources guideline states that "The very same source may be reliable for one fact and not for another". To speak by way of example, the historian Mark Noll writes about Christianity and the Bible and his books are favorably reviewed as reliable. Noll also has said that as part of his religion he believes in the virgin birth of Jesus. Does the latter make the former become unreliable? No; it just means reliability varies in different contexts. It would be entirely wrong to cite Noll to assert something about immaculate conception in Wikipedia's pregnancy article, or to aver in the Jesus article that he was actually virginally born. By contrast, it's entirely appropriate and relevant to cite what Noll reports about the Christianity, Christians, and the Bible in the relevant articles Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
    Of course we can cite Noll et al's work in articles. The problem here is when Noll et al are the only scholars citable for a topic. If there's no discussion of it from a mainstream perspective by mainstream sources, we have no idea at all if Noll et al's coverage actually is NPOV and we have no way of contextualizing it without committing OR. JoelleJay (talk) 16:09, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
    when Noll et al are the only scholars citable for a topic. If there's no discussion of it from a mainstream perspective by mainstream sources
    To obtain that mainstream perspective, I look at publishers and coverage in reliable sources. Noll's In the Beginning Was the Word and his The Civil War as Theological Crisis were published by Oxford University Press and the University of North Carolina Press, respectively. These mainstream, scholarly publishers provide a filtering effect: if Noll's findings were fringe, his manuscripts would have been rejected and not published. As for coverage, to continue with this example, Noll's A History of Christianity in the United States and Canada was published by Eerdmans, a publisher of histories that have received positive reviews but also a religiously affiliated Christian press; to determine with dueness and utility of the coverage, the review in Reading Religion, a review outlet run by the secular American Academy of Religion, provides such mainstream context. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 16:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
    Mainstream publishers do not change the context or perspective of a work. It's perfectly reasonable for a reliable mainstream publisher to publish an academic book by an ayurveda practitioner surveying the modern practice of ayurveda, but such works absolutely cannot be the only sources on the topic because they will not appropriately address the mainstream consensus that ayurveda is nationalist pseudoscience. People's beliefs are a valid subject of research, but when those beliefs necessitate a fringe understanding of the world, scholarship on them by believers is inherently non-NPOV and therefore must not be the sole source. JoelleJay (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
    Mainstream publishers do not change the context or perspective of a work. If publishers were this irrelevant, we'd have no reason for guidelines like WP:SPS. A practitioner who writes about their practice for a mainstream or academic press is expected to check their beliefs sufficiently to speak to, with, and within the mainstream/academic conversation. To use another example, Hannah Gresh's Habbakuk: Remembering God's Faithfulness when God Seems Silent and Mark Noll's In the Beginning Was the Word: The Bible in American Public Life are both books about the Bible written by Christians, but the former is a Sunday School manual published by the Moody Bible Institute, and the latter is an academic reception history published by Oxford University Press. To treat these as somehow similarly "fringe" because their authors both happen to be Christian without considering the publisher as a valid context that selects and shapes content—without considering that Oxford University Press would not publish a book that Moody would—is to misunderstand both books. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 22:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
    Publishing through a reliable mainstream publisher does not confer anything beyond reliability to a source. It does not transform a work from non-independent to independent, or primary to secondary. Simply being reliably published does not make a biased work NPOV. Publishers readily work with content written from biased and even fringe perspectives (e.g. OUP and this manual on acupuncture or anything in their "integrative medicine" series), they are catering to specific audiences, not trying to maintain a comprehensive and neutral corpus aimed at the general public. There are plenty of academically-published books about the history of CAM written by CAM apologists, publishers certainly aren't rewriting them to reflect the mainstream scientific view because that's not what these books are for. It's when they are being used in what is supposed to be a neutral, mainstream treatment of a topic, where readers don't know the biases of the underlying sources, that we have to provide context from the mainstream perspective. JoelleJay (talk) 04:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
    We seem unlikely to persuade each other about the relationship between publisher and publication or about how to interpret WP:IS. And with Ad Orientem having pointed out below that OP's question and controversial position (to use OP's words) were launched in the wrong thread, I think we won't be served by further reiterating ourselves. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 05:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
    Publishing by a mainstream publisher does not necessarily mean it is reliable. It's unusual but I've seen wildly fringe material published by reliable publishers. Doug Weller talk 07:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment I deeply regret that I missed this discussion, which is now fairly along. The subject is outside the purview of this forum and belongs on WP:RSN. This noticeboard deals with fringe beliefs that contradict established science or historical fact (i.e. Flat Eartherism or Holocaust denial). Religion, which deals with a belief in the supernatural, is by its very nature something that cannot be proven or disproven through the ordinary processes of examination of historic and scientific facts. As such it is a topic that is almost never appropriate for this forum. I generally close religious discussions when I find them here and point the concerned parties to the correct forum. Unfortunately, this discussion is probably too far along for that. Mea culpa mea culpa... -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:09, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Pseudohistory

Something weird going on here with all these new editors.[25] Doug Weller talk 17:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I love this comment: "...which is ad hominem (i.e., a logical fallacy)"! Deb (talk) 17:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Osteopathic pseudoscience

Getting consistent attention from IPs removing the pseudoscience designation for the pseudoscience-specific bits of the training. Could use eyes. Bon courage (talk) 15:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

John C. Sanford

ID proponent. "Intelligent design" does not sound like a pseudoscience to people unfamiliar with it, which is why we usually (correctly) mention that it is. Some people do not like that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The Saturn Myth

Just noticed this. Completely unsourced since 2018. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Anatoly Fomenko

IP edit-warring WP:FALSEBALANCE stuff in. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Joseph Davidovits

There's an IP at the talk page complaining about lack of sources. It looks as though it needs more and may be slightly tilted towards his views. Doug Weller talk 17:23, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems that his assertions about how the pyramids were built might be discussed by other sources in the article. I think the question is, does the mention or discussion in the sources amount to significant coverage? I started a discussion on the talk page if anyone is interested in helping to analyze the sources. Also, is there evidence that Davidovits received the Ordre national du Mérite? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 02:50, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
I've removed that. Doug Weller talk 13:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
I have been looking at what publications exist in terms of reliable, third-party, sources that review the idea that the pyramids / great pyramids of Egypt consisting of blocks of casts geopolymer. So far, I have found a deafening lack of recent third-party reviews. The main peer-reviewed sources consists of parts of a "pro" and "con" discussion that was published during 1992 and 1993 in the Journal of Geological Education. Subsequently, there is a 2007 conference paper and a report by Dipayan Jana that dispute this concept. On the "pro" side, there are several conference papers; a few papers in ceramic / material engineering journals; and numerous self-published articles and books all by a very small handful of supporters of this idea.
After 1992 and 1993, I have so far been able to find very few publications by a third-party archeologist, geoarchaeologist, or geologist who have recently published anything about this idea. The publications citing the publications of the "pro" side of use of polymers in building the pyramids, seem to be in the introduction to ceramic and material engineering papers that only state so-and-so proposed that the pyramids are constructed by blocks of geopolymers and go on to discuss other unrelated aspects of geopolymers. Outside of the proponents of fringe ideas, it seems after 2012-2013, the only people interested in this concept have been a small group of its supporters. Finding reliable, third-party, commentary and reviews of the pyramid - geopolymers connection might be problem as there seems to be a lack of interest in this topic by third-party archeologists, geoarchaeologists, and geologists. Paul H. (talk) 18:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
@Paul H.@Johnprovis@Steve Quinn Thanks to Paul for finding this which looks like a brilliant source which discusses Davidovits... [26] Dietrich Klemm, Rosemarie Klemm THE STONES OF THE PYRAMIDS Provenance of the Building Stones of the Old Kingdom Pyramids of Egypt/ Doug Weller talk 13:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Thanks Paul. The dearth of discussion in sources probably means that this hypothesis has gained no traction in the mainstream scientific community. It most likely a hypothesis or a theory with a potpourri of shortcomings. And of course the theory has a certain aura about it because it connects with the pyramids of Gaza. And that kind of aura often leads to unsound and even irrational ideas outside the scientific community, if you get my meaning.---Steve Quinn (talk) 16:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Geopolymer

Who wrote that? returns "JDavidovits (talk | contribs) added this on 18 January 2013 10:36 AM. I have replace the old content with a new one that is an actual update and represents the wishes of the geopolymer scientists community.+27,571 They have written 61.0% of the page. Found that at Talk:Joseph Davidovits#Adding details on my scientific career — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 13:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Where can we post this to get people who know about geopolymer? Doug Weller talk 16:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Doug Weller. Offhand I am thinking of the WikiProject Engineering talk page. But I am wondering if it would be OK to post at the Village Pump for more visibility. What do you think about the Village Pump? Too over the top? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 17:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
I don’t know,which one? Doug Weller talk 17:37, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Let me take a look over at the Village Pump and see if this fits into a section over there. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 19:50, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Anyone else who has a suggestion, please chime in. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 19:50, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller:, I think this will be OK in the Village Pump Miscellaneous section. Do you want to open the thread there because you know what you are asking? Or do you want me to open the thread? If I do then you will have let me know what you want to ask, because I am not entirely sure. It seems you are concerned that JDavidovits wrote 61.0 percent of that page. So you want editors who know about geopolymers to judge the accuracy of the page or to edit or something else? ---Steve Quinn (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn judge the accuracy, sources, pov. If you could do it that would be great, I’m off to sleep. Thanks very much. Doug Weller talk 20:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: - I don't mind doing it. But it will be in about a day or so. I want to take a closer look at this article and the Joseph Davidovits biography. In the meantime please rest as much as you need. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 22:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller:. Sorry to ping you again. Just want to let you know I might have found someone to help out. I haven't tried the Village Pump yet, but I discovered this editor who may be able to help. I left a message on his talk page. Here is the link: [27]. If they don't respond in a few days I will send them an email. And we still have the Village Pump option if this doesn't pan out. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 00:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Also, if you have more to add over at their talk page feel free to do so.----Steve Quinn (talk) 00:21, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
I just tagged the article for factual accuracy based on the talk page discussions and the fact that Davidovits edited 61 per cent of the article. He was indefinitely blocked in 2016. However, while he was editing on that article he had some serious WP:OWNership issues, among other issues. That's what I gather from the talk page discussions. I am tempted to simply stubify it and start over. If I knew about Geopolymers I certainly would do that. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
He also edited with a sock. Subbing may be necessary or maybe a merge with Geopolymer cement. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 08:21, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
OK. I will look at stubifying or a merge. Either of these may be the best solution at this time.---Steve Quinn (talk)
I am linking to the sock investigation for reference: JDavidovits sock investigation results. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 09:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
This article really does need a lot of work (it's got some major scientific flaws as well as some more broadly misleading or weird content), but there was a huge bunfight last time I tried to do anything about it - I'm a researcher who works on these materials (and have done so for 20 years or so - https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=1mwmcwYAAAAJ&hl=en), which someone last time around said was too much of a conflict of interest for me to be doing much editing on the article?
I'm happy to put some time into it if it's appropriate, though - please let me know.
Either way, I think merging is definitely worth doing. Johnprovis (talk) 12:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
@Johnprovis:, @Doug Weller:, I changed the article back to its February 13, 2016 version. In that edit summary Joheprovis Undid revision 704588689 by JDavidovits and wrote: "You can't just revert a year's editing by all sorts of people (not just me) - needs to go through appropriate dispute resolution." Here is the diff for that: [28]. And here is the diff for today's revert: [29]. I am guessing this is the most accurate version available at this time.
John, if you think a merge is the best option then I agree with you. Doug also suggested a merge as an option. So this what I recommend. John, do you remember who told you that editing that article would be a conflict of interest? We may need to have a discussion about that before the merge. I don't want you to get into trouble. And yet, you are the most capable of doing the merge. So let's just take it one step at a time. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 13:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
@Johnprovis@Steve Quinn A merge makes sense. I've just deleted more material, eg from something called the "Australian Geopolymer Alliance" that doesn't even exist any more. John, being an expert definitely does not give you a conflict of interest. Repeatedly adding your own articles might, or something that you get paid to do, but not just expertise. Doug Weller talk 14:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: - John, I agree with Doug. I don't think you have a conflict of interest. Being an expert does not mean you have a COI. I believe that is a misunderstanding on someone else's part. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 14:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. I'll start bashing at it then - this is actually quite a major class of cements and needs a proper Wikipedia article. As a starting point, I've run through the Geopolymer Cement article and retrieved the text of the one section there that wasn't already a duplicate of stuff that's here (on "Workability issues"), and pasted that in - which is fairly painless as far as a merge goes.... I think the Geopolymer Cement article can safely be deleted now by someone who knows properly how to do this? (I'm not really up to speed on that side of things, so sorry if there's any lack of Wikipedia etiquette/process/acronyms/etc. that come up here).
And it's been long enough that I can't even remember who commented on the conflict of interest thing, but if you don't think it's an issue then I'll happily start progressing a few edits. It won't happen overnight, but hopefully some helpful improvements will be visible before long... and if it's possible to enlist other interested folks as you mentioned about the Village Pump, that would also be handy, I think. Johnprovis (talk) 16:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: Doug, see John's post just above. @Johnprovis: Thanks very much, John. This is much appreciated. I will post something over at the Village Pump in a day or so. Also, if you have any problems, please feel free to let me or Doug know so that, hopefully, we can smooth things out if necessary. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 17:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
@Johnprovis@Steve Quinn Thanks. I think just turning it into a redirect might be ok? Not sure we need to go to the VP. Doug Weller talk 17:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: I agree that a redirect will do. I also agree that maybe we don't need to go to the VP. Let's see how things go from here. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller:, @Johnprovis:. I just want to let you know I made the article a stub plus the recently merged material [30]. I got tired of trying to ferret out the POV and blatant self promotion. For edits regarding the removal of self promotion, prior to creating this stub - see the article history. I also removed more material from the lead as too technical and so on. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 14:04, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn Much appreciated. Sorry I've been too busy to do much recently. Doug Weller talk 14:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: This is not a problem. The issues here are straightforward. I don't mind doing this. Self-promoting-sock editing is worth removing from this project space. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 14:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
@Steve Quinn Could you post to the talk page saying where you merged the material from? Normally that would be in an edit summary. It's necessary to be able to trace attribution. Thanks Doug Weller talk 14:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: The merge was accomplished by John a couple of days ago, and it is in the edit summary. Here is the diff [31]. I did not merge the material. And the diff says where it was merged from. Regards, ---Steve Quinn (talk) 14:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
I've just wandered by to have a look at things to make a start on editing, and it looks like almost the whole article has been removed except for the section I shifted across from "geopolymer cement" - which wasn't my intention in grabbing that, I was just copying it across because it was the only part of that article that wasn't already in the main Geopolymer one. If the original text has been deemed unsalvageable and a full rewrite is needed, that's ok and I can try to rebuild something, but it would be easier to do this by working from the (admittedly not very good) old version than from a blank page, if it's possible to restore the text to edit please? I suspect I could probably figure out how to do this, but also suspect that the chance of me messing up the entire thing via a fat-finger error is higher than I'm keen to risk... thanks! Johnprovis (talk) 19:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
@Johnprovis: I have restored the old version as you have requested. It's not that it was unsalvageable. It was just a question of what was tainted with violations of WP:NPOV and self-promotion. From an overview of the whole article it was hard to tell. Anyway, I am glad to restore to this version so you can work on the old version rather than a blank page. And, again, your efforts are very much appreciated. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! Johnprovis (talk) 08:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

False Memory Syndrome Foundation

I had been editing and improving this page and another editor recently made a bold edit to improve neutrality to remove the NPOV banner that had been there for over 10 years and it was a massive improvement.

There is false balance being pushed on that page now by someone who has reverted all the edits and is pushing irrelevant citations in talk. Science denial by saying false memories are not a valid psych concept when this is a well-established concept and has been for years.

Moreover, this page is about the foundation, not a well-established phenomenon.← 𝐋𝐞𝐟𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐝𝐥𝐢𝐨𝐧 13:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to the noticeboard's attention @Lefthandedlion. I was the one that rewrote the article a few days ago. We need to remember that this article is about the Foundation not the discussion of FMS is pseudoscience or not. That will have to wait for a rewrite of the FMS article. I see that you and Donna have been having some good discussions while I was sleeping, just waking up now and reading it over. I'm hopeful that we can get that taken care of quickly, all the gossip needs to go IMHO. Sgerbic (talk) 16:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Nano-ayurvedic medicine

Full of dubious claim. Author reverted redirecting to a better article. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

"This combination allows for targeted delivery of herbal remedies at the cellular level," Oh boy. So they strongly dilute something to make it more efficent? Isn't it difficult to get a herb into a cell? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
As long as the herb is around the size of a protein molecule it shouldn't be hard. That's how homeopathy works, right? By making the herb so dilute it fits through the channels in the cell membrane? Seriously though, if an ayurvedic remedy had an appreciable effect on any specific part of the body, this could be a decent method of delivery. All that needs doing is the secondary sources. Reconrabbit 13:14, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Wrong about homeopathy. That works with dilutions so extreme that not a single molecule of the active ingredient remains. The solvent is supposed to "remember" it. Magic, in other words. Zerotalk 13:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Use of nanoparticles for drug delivery is mainstream, but this combination with herbal medicine is fringe and only seems to be promoted by its True Believers. The article, if it is notable enough to be kept at all, needs a WP:TNT. Zerotalk 11:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The article has been moved to Draft:Nano-ayurvedic medicine.--Gronk Oz (talk) 12:00, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I had BLARred and have now draftified. Many (maybe all) of the sources do not meet WP:MEDRS, and there are entirely unsourced sections, including §Potential Benefits. If there are strong sources out there about nano-Ayurvedic medicine, I would hope to see them summarized at Ayurveda. If we end up with too much about it, we can then split. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
This draft just seems like incomprehensible word salad to me. It is not likely to be ready for articlespace any time soon. Partofthemachine (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
A merge seems the obvious solution. Slatersteven (talk) 12:10, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Looks like a bait-and-switch. Only one of the sources uses the term "nano-Ayurvedic", and even that is just talking about using chemicals from herbs that are used in Ayurveda rather than "the principles of Ayurveda", and the others are just talking about phytochemicals delivered by nanotechnology. I really don't think there's an article here at present, and possibly nothing much to merge without indulging in WP:SYN. Brunton (talk) 18:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Young blood transfusion

New Talk section: Pseudoscience or not?

Is anybody still watching this? Main contributors on the Talk page seem to have been Jytdog and Roxy the dog, both of which are indeffed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Allais effect

Allais effect (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) This obscure alleged physics phenomenon seems to give the concept more credit then the academic literature gives it. Lots of poor sourcing to conference abstracts, etc, though there doesn't seem to be much better out there on this topic. Could do with a substantial reworking/trim Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Naftalan oil

After User:Naftalan Products edits the article, Naftalan oil stops being pseudoscience and helps against ailments. Maybe medical experts know if that is justified. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Naftalan oil again

Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard

Our article at Naftalan oil pushes the decidedly fringe view that sitting up to your neck in crude oil and thus breathing in high concentrations of naphthalene fumes is beneficial to your health. The reality is that exposure to large amounts of naphthalene vapor is very dangerous, which the current article does not make clear.

The last time I looked into this (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naftalan oil and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 346#Croatian source for for claims about the medical effects of bathing in high-naphthalene-content crude oil), I determined that a lot of money was being made selling these crude-oil baths, and that local sources (and possibly editors who have edited this page and few others) are likely to have a conflict of interest.

From the New York Times:[32]

"Naftalan crude contains about 50 percent naphthalene, a hydrocarbon best known as the stuff of mothballs. It is also an active ingredient in coal tar soap."

From our article on mothballs:

"Exposure to naphthalene mothballs can cause acute hemolysis (anemia) in people with glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency. IARC classifies naphthalene as possibly carcinogenic to humans and other animals (see also Group 2B). IARC points out that acute exposure causes cataracts in humans, rats, rabbits, and mice. Chronic exposure to naphthalene vapors is reported to also cause cataracts and retinal hemorrhage... In addition to their cancer risks, mothballs are known to cause liver and kidney damage... Mothballs containing naphthalene have been banned within the EU since 2008."

--Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 16:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Erm, you seem to have ignored all the comments Mike Turnbull left in Talk:Naftalan oil. Apparently the reason why these weird things don't kill people en masse is documented in scientific articles - those baths do not actually contain that much carcinogenic matter. We continue to document the newspaper articles saying they do, as well as some of those scientific articles. Please take some time to try to read the updates at the Talk page. --Joy (talk) 19:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Please don't confuse "I read the comments on the talk page and still think bathing in crude oil is harmful" with "I ignored/didn't bother to read the comments". I assure you that I have read all of the comments and all of the references, and that we are all trying to improve the article even if we disagree, so please dial down the agression and casting of aspersions a bit, OK?
Of course bathing in crude oil doesn't result in immediate mass deaths. They would never have opened the petroleum spas in the city of Naftalan if that were true (you don't see spas anywhere where the customers bath in lava, for example). That says nothing either way about any long term health effects. --Guy Macon Alternate Account (talk) 02:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Um, there is no aggression to dial down, or aspersions. I find these accusations very troubling as you're the one who stopped engaging on the talk page and instead went to this noticeboard immediately.
Yes, it's a legitimate risk to tell readers that there's something out there which could be harmful and not explain the full extent of the harm. At the same time, having the article say something apparently completely untrue is likewise legitimately wrong. How about we try to actually find some pertinent information about those long-term health effects and document them, as opposed to all this scaremongering?
You literally used the previous noticeboard discussion as pretext to censor the inclusion of a scientific article that said they did a 10-year study on health effects. At the same time, the unsubstantiated one-sentence claim about 50% napththalene from the NYT article was allowed to stand, which another person now says it's utterly false. I don't see how this behavior is helpful to our readers. --Joy (talk) 06:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
I do think for Wikipedia to say something is/is not/might be cancer-causing, strong WP:MEDRS is necessary. Bon courage (talk) 07:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Yes, and let's try to focus on finding those. In the meantime I noticed Guy posted on the article talk page, which is helpful. There's a few sentences in the linked naphthenic acids article that are cause for concern, and now we need to get to the bottom of how exactly they relate to this topic.
As advised by the WP:MEDRS guideline, we should try to compose a health effects section with current and accurate biomedical information. Right now all we have is a bunch of weird novelty in the lead, and a very cautious history section that mentions information from 700, 100, 50 and 15 years ago. All of this seems reasonably well sourced as general information, but it still might give the average reader the impression of "this is pretty old so therefore maybe it's just fine". Instead of making them have to deduce anything of the sort, we should find current high-quality references that support or refute that. --Joy (talk) 07:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
From a quick look there doesn't seem to be anything. It may be best just to omit anything about health effects in that case. Bon courage (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
have you tried looking at the effects of contact with oil in general? the biochemistry should be almost identical (though I suspect most of those studies will be about long term contact in small doses rather than a big dose all at once) --Licks-rocks (talk) 08:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
(noting here that yes, this means what guy says above is perfectly useable in my eyes, provided we have MEDRS to support the claim about mothballs) --Licks-rocks (talk) 08:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Several journalists seem to have confused napthalene with naphthene long before the Wikipedia article was created in 2014. If editors would give me a couple of more days to work on the article, we can return here about its "fringeness" then. There are lots of interesting things to say about naftalan oil without Wikipedia needing to include anything requiring WP:MEDRS sources. Meanwhile those who think that medications can't be made out of the chemical mixtures found in oil products should read coal tar. Mike Turnbull (talk) 09:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
The problem with the mothballs claims is that it was never clear that they fully apply, because the other 'Naftalan' hospital in Croatia has been functioning under the auspices of an EU member country for over a decade now, so either we in Wikipedia have accidentally uncovered a huge medical scandal, or we aren't operating with the full set of information. --Joy (talk) 11:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
either we in Wikipedia have accidentally uncovered a huge medical scandal Pff. Pseudomedicine is rampant everywhere, and most people ignore it. Propaganda for all sorts of quackery is everywhere, homeopathy is still paid for by health insurance in parts of Europe, India has its own pro-quackery ministry, the US NIH has a pro-quackery institute (NCCIH), and so on. Medicine that does not work should be a scandal, but it is not. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Sigh. Let's then just make that we uphold our own standards and apply the appropriate amount of rigor based on the available information, as opposed to us acting on newspaper hearsay, which hasn't worked out great so far. There's been a steady stream of some sort of scientific-looking research done on this topic for decades now, we should examine to which level it satisfies quality guidelines like WP:MEDASSESS and at least be able explain to the readers if e.g. these are all just primary studies. It would also probably be beneficial for someone with knowledge of Russian biomedical science to assess the status of those works, as one of the Croatian articles cited mentions a large volume of that but doesn't delve deeper. --Joy (talk) 14:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Can someone help a new editor using Creationist sources that I reverted?

User:Cornelius Benedictus is unhappy with my revert here and User:Firefangledfeathers here. It doesn't help that it was me who warned them and didn't mention I didn't do both reverts. My bad. Doug Weller talk 15:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

In fact, I mistakenly assumed both the warning received and the NPOV issue were all about the the second mentioned edition, which was not the case, since the second one was only about the sources' verifiability issue. Even though my edition does not fall short of the policy stated at Wikipedia: Verifiability: Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves at the second edition, and this is not the issue of the first edition, I apologise for the misunderstanding and thank User:Doug Weller. Cornelius Benedictus (talk) 16:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Gokhale Method® – Primal Posture™ for a Pain-Free Life

An interesting one this, maybe one of those cases where it's not possible to write a neutral article on a (probably) FRINGE subject as there is no neutral/mainstream sourcing.

An editor has raised concerns that the scientific sourcing cited in this article is not relevant to the subject, and they may well be right. Removing it would leave no independent assessment of the method's claims. What to do? Bon courage (talk) 09:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a dearth of scientific literature to refute her claims of back pain not existing in industrialized societies, mainly because ergonomic studies try to identify the source of injuries when they are occuring. E.g., drivers in Bangladesh, factory workers in Taiwan. Nothing especially professional has been written in the literature I can find about Gokhale (though there is an embarrassingly promotional article in Biofeedback). The best I think we can do right now is to try and steer the article towards a neutral POV and pointedly attribute the various claims. Reconrabbit 20:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Huberman

is a very hot topic[34] at the moment, especially with recent published material referring to his podcast as containing pseudoscience/ More wise eyes could help. Bon courage (talk) 14:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I doubt the usefulness of including David Berson's input on this guy's podcast in the end there. Reconrabbit 18:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Yeah but it's in the WP:RS and the Huberman fans go rabid if you only cite the negatives from a source. It's better to throw them a bone than encourage edit warring. A few additional watchers on the article are good though. Zenomonoz (talk) 03:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
If 'you only cite the negatives from a source', you are engaged in cherry-picking, and all Wikipedians with a good-faith understanding of WP:NPOV should oppose such. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
That's a misreading of NPOV. We are not required to balance "positive" and "negative" parts of a source. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:58, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Untick of interest here with Weilins warring in health claims sourced to primary research, even including Huberman's stuff about 'deep relaxation states' cited to a preprint. Bon courage (talk) 20:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
    None of the sources in the paragraph on yoga nidra warrant the "enhanced neuroplasticity" claims. We need to wait for a review, not a preprint and an article from The Times. Also concerned about how often that Stanford Magazine article is cited; the author Deni Ellis Béchard is not an authority on medical subjects. Reconrabbit 21:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Uri Geller

Article being rewritten with false balance such as this. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not an example of false balance. False balance would be to give Geller's supporters equal space in defending him. The overwhelming opinion of qualified people is that his stunts are only magic tricks, so it is fine for the balance of the article to lean heavily in that direction. However, merely reporting that Geller himself denies he is a fraud is different, and arguably required by WP:BLP. Zerotalk 12:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't see how the diff you link is WP:FALSEBALANCE as the only thing it does is add the fact that Uri Geller denies the accusations of fraud, which doesn't exactly present a fringe view as if it has equal validity to the mainstream one. WADroughtOfVowelsP 09:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps I was imprecise? Magicians say he's a fraud but Geller says they are wrong and he's a genuine psychic. The WP:MANDY protestations picked from Geller's autobio in the lead are WP:UNDUE and have been removed. The edit war on the page has ceased. Good job everyone. - LuckyLouie (talk) 12:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Talk:William_Shakespeare#Lead_image

Another info-box issue. Not really fringe, more a WP:FALSEBALANCE issue. Your view is welcome at the linked discussion, if you have one. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Biblical timeline

Good faith discussion about legitimate issues, but wrong forum. See the thread immediately below this. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Gråbergs Gråa Sång wrote: "It also makes no mention where in the Bible he appears, which I think is pretty central info."

I fully agree. While exact dates for some biblical events and persons are sometimes unknowable or inaccurate (in relation to known events), others can at least be placed on a biblical genealogy timeline of events. Whether it's historically accurate or not is beside the point. The Bible does mention history and genealogy. We have these articles (which also have great See also sections):

I think it would be a great service for many Biblical articles to have a timeline at the top or bottom of the article, with the relevant topic or person then marked on the timeline. (This may be a topic that would best be discussed elsewhere, but I'll just start here and hear what you think is best.) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

To quote a Swedish comedian: "Moses was a man who lived... at the beginning of the Bible." I'm currently thinking of taking the Infobox discussion above somewhere else, this isn't really a good place for it, but there has been a lot of constructive comments. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:15, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I agree. Please leave a link here to that discussion. My point is that readers should have some idea of the relative placement of these individuals in real history, and in the in-universe biblical history. Moses was after Adam, Noah, and Abraham (regardless of whether they were real persons) and before David, Solomon, and Christ. Readers, even atheists, should know that. They should know more about everything after reading our articles. This is basic Jeopardy! stuff, and I'm pretty sure that contestants don't believe every answer they provide. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:25, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Numulunj pilgae

This user's contributions seem to be full of attempts at rewriting history of Volga Finns, with the most fringe idea being that Judaism was widespread among medieval Mokshas and other Volga Finns (the logic behind that seems to be as follows: Judaism was practiced at least to some extent in the Khazar Kaghanate, the Burtas had something to do with Khazars, the Mokshas had something to do with Burtas, therefore all those peoples were Jewish). In many cases, they use Russian-language sources that don't actually support their claims, perhaps in hope that no one on English Wikipedia is going to check those sources thoroughly. Most of their articles already are deleted (i.e. Mordva (slur), Mordvins (term for Jews), Mokshan logographic script), and I have removed the most obvious extraordinary claims (like "Torah Judaism" as a religion of people like Narchat or Puresh), but I still need someone to help checking their contributions for less obviously fringe claims. In particular, I'm not sure that names like "Ancient Mokshaland" ever were used in English-language historiography, or if there ever was an entity called Erzya-Moksha Autonomy (AFAIK it always was called "Mordvin Okrug"). Finstergeist (talk) 19:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I share this concern. I don't speak Russian, but I looked into some sources in these articles using machine translation, and they seldom seem to verify the statements. The user has been quite industrious, and to go through all the articles he created or significantly expanded will take a long time. Many of the sources are also not available online. As the first step, perhaps we could tag all these articles with {{OR?}} templates? Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
While I can read Russian sources, the amount of needed work is indeed too big for me alone. Tagging the questionable statements (not nesessarily the whole articles) as WP:OR would be a good start. Finstergeist (talk) 19:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
It's also worth mentioning that various fringe claims (i.e. fake flags, fake writing systems etc. along with typical pseudohistory like claiming "Aryans"/"Hyperboreans" etc. as ancestors of some ethnic group), often combined with radical nationalism, are very common on Finno-Ugric themed forums. Since the topic isn't very popular, some of those claims may look believable to many non-specialists. Finstergeist (talk) 20:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

VPP discussion about elevating SCIRS to guideline status

Editors here may be interested. JoelleJay (talk) 01:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Methuselah

Article states as fact in lead and infobox that he lived to be 969 years old. Doug Weller talk 08:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Many biblical figures and possibly non-biblical figures have infobox "facts" like that, David, Solomon, etc. I'm not saying they should, but it's common. Per Talk:Moses/Archive_6#Infobox_is_a_violation_of_NPOV, there's no easy general solution, but I'd like to see some sort of consensus on these infoboxes. Perhaps a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion is a way to start an attempt. "People will get it's just Biblical stuff." is of course one way to look at it, but I'd like it if we can do better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Meh… we frequently present “in universe” facts about fictional characters this way. For example, our article on the Tolkien character Aragorn states as fact that he “reigned for 122 years”. Blueboar (talk) 22:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
The Aragorn article starts, "Aragorn is a fictional character...". I don't see any similar declaration about Methuselah. Brunton (talk) 10:20, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
"biblical patriarch". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
And that article states "Scholars have taken a mixed view as to the Patriarchs's historicity, with archaeology so far supposedly producing no evidence for their existence, although this claim is disputed." This may not be WP:s best work. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
The Aragorn infobox also states "Tolkien character". It's like having an article section titled "Biblical narrative." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
This entire info box is fictional, and embarrasses Wikipedia as a serious source of information. I wouldn't disagree with replacing it with some more appropriate template if one exists. It should be clear that this is only a folk tale/mythological claim. Big Money Threepwood (talk) 05:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
IMO "fictional" and "scriptural" are not necessarily the same thing. The genres are somewhat different. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
"Mythical" would be closer. Brunton (talk) 12:48, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
I wonder if an infobox specifically for OT/Hebrew Bible figures could be useful. It's a bit narrow, but it seems to me these are the ones that tend to be complained about, and I don't think there's many of them where a historian would go further than "unknowable" on the "facts". The specific case Methuselah use Infobox person, and that's not good enough. It also makes no mention where in the Bible he appears, which I think is pretty central info. The infobox should have some sort heading/"warning", like at Will Riker. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
An infobox with some headers would be better IMO. However I'm not sure if this problem is unique to that area, or even cases where we do have more specific infoboxes we've avoided it. For example, we have Template:Infobox deity. But this can include details like parents, consorts etc. Take a look at Hercules as an example. Yes some of the fields might be a bit weird for an actual person like equivalents and adobe, but I'd note these are optional and also taking them as informing the reader that this is fictional or mythological or whatever depend on how these terms are understood. IMO the only clear indication in the infobox this is bullshit is the header which says "god of" but even this is an optional parameter so there might be some examples without it. Nil Einne (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Aron has Template:Infobox religious biography and Abraham has Template:Infobox religious person, neither of those seem ideal. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think Heracles/Hercules was a god in Greek or Roman mythology. I thought he was the mortal son of a god rather than a god. There seems to be some confusion around religion and mythology. Brunton (talk) 17:08, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
According to [35] he had shrines, festivals and a cult. That's pretty god-ish. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
He was deified after his death. Pretty common back then. But "infobox deity" won't work with Biblical people.
Agamemnon also has the deity infobox, and he was not a deity. He belongs in the same sack as Methuselah. See Talk:Abraham/Archive_9#Infobox character for a similar discussion. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Template:Infobox character states "for a fictional character of any type." IMO, that doesn't quite fit the likes of Agamemnon, Methuselah, Saul, David etc. A "Template:Infobox mythological character" would fit better, perhaps with a synonym instead of "character", like "individual" or something like that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Clarification: I linked that discussion which happens to start from "infobox character" but I am not saying that Infobox character is the correct choice. I agree that "Template:Infobox mythological character" would be good. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I wonder what the point even is then... All mythological characters are also fictional characters, one set is contained within the other set. They aren't the same as a historical figure who has been mythologized (for example Jesus, Elvis, or Alexander the Great). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
The point would be to have a better and more obvious/consensus-ish choice of infobox than Template:Infobox religious biography ("It is not intended to be used for mythological figures") for Moses and Aaron, Template:Infobox person for Methuselah, Template:Infobox deity for Agamemnon and Template:Infobox royalty for Saul. I don't think it's necessarily helpful for WP-articles/WP-readers to consider mythological = fictional. Different genres. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
They aren't different genres... Mythology is a subgenera of fiction. For example mythical/legendary creatures are fictional entities. If we wouldn't have this debate over Unicorn why are we having it over Methuselah? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:09, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think it's necessarily that simple, Myth/mythological. I think a common understanding of fiction is something written/told for the purpose of being fiction, and I don't think that fits the article-subjects I just mentioned. Anyway, based on your reasoning, how would you "solve" the OP Methuselah issue? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
There are two general definition of fiction: "literature in the form of prose that describes imaginary events and people." and "something that is invented or untrue." both of which would appear to apply here... The Hebrew Bible is "literature in the form of prose that describes imaginary events and people." and Methuselah is one of those imaginary/made up people. To solve the OP Methuselah issue I would use no infobox at all (for example like at Romulus and Remus). As a secondary solution the creation of a dedicated mythical person infobox would be ok. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
No infobox, you say? I wonder if... Oh yeah: Talk:Romulus_and_Remus#Restored_dates_and_infobox and the following thread. May have been stable on that point since then though. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Another example of no infobox would be Satan. There are also some which use a generic infobox like Fuxi. In other cases we seem to just use diety even if it doesn't really fit (example Haosi Namoinu). With the Christian figures we tend to jam the saint infobox in there even if its meant for people and not for mythical creatures like Michael (archangel). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
The more I look at it the more I think perhaps others are right and a dedicated mythical person infobox is the way to go here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:55, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I always thought it was only a mater of time before this notice board brings its war of anti-fringe- fanaticism into religion articles. Should we also add the word "false" every time we mention a deity or religion, lest some poor reader come away with the notion that gods might be real? I say leave it be, quit handwringing. --Animalparty! (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
I always thought that you disagree with what this board is doing in principle and that the noise you add to it is your problem and not that of this board. If you want WP:FRINGE revoked, Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories is thataway. Until you succeed, we will follow the current rules. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I’m an FTN regular who also takes issue with FTN trying to roll religion into what constitutes a fringe theory. It’s entirely possible to moderate fringe content (i.e. a statement that the earth is 6,000 years old) without viewing a religious practice as inherently fringe in and of themselves. This isn’t the first time it’s come up on FTN and it won’t be the last. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 22:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Its a complicated relationship. Not everything religious is fringe, but much of fringe is religious. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Oh I agree, I just have seen FTN treat things of a religious nature as inherently fringe without that religious nature. If it's outside one of the major world religions, and especially if it's associated with New Age, then things get handled a bit indelicately sometimes. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
That is fair... There are some regulars here who conflate dealing with fringe issues and promoting a certain brand of atheistic skepticism (often going as far as to pretend that skeptics are the mainstream and not a weird community of their own). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think it is helpful to talk in general terms about passionate topics. The matter at hand is quite clear cut: the idea that Methuselah was in fact 969 years old is fringe and thus on-topic here. Tercer (talk) 23:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
"The matter at hand is quite clear cut: the idea that Methuselah was in fact 969 years old is fringe and thus on-topic here."
I don't agree it's fringe, it's just clearly not encyclopedic. I think fringe would be more an attempt to explain that type of long lifespan using a naturalistic approach of some kind. Just mere religious belief is religious belief. The big difference, I think, is in how it's handled. But obviously that's just my take here. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 23:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
No no, this is not a normal religious belief. It's difficult to find Christians that take the age of Methuselah seriously, this is just a throwaway passage without any significance. It's not like the miracles of Moses of Jesus, that are key plot elements. Tercer (talk) 00:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I was mentally mapping it to Young Earth beliefs, since those tend to require the very long lifetimes to arrive at a number that'd give the Sumerians cause for concern. Those aren't major within Christianity, but YEC is still a current through much of protestantism. Christian theology is broadly outside my wheelhouse, though. That said, I'm uncomfortable with FTN determining what is and isn't a "normal religious belief". Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 00:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Even within Christianity YEC is fringe, let alone in the society in general. Tercer (talk) 07:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I see there is a discussion, so won't start a new one. His purported age is not a throwaway thing. I just tweaked the sentence to "He is claimed to have lived the longest life, dying at 969 years of age." The use of "claimed" is appropriate in this situation. His claimed age is quite notable in the Biblical scheme of things, as he is considered, by those who believe, to be the oldest human to have ever lived. We do describe things with the "in-universe" terms, while also connecting it to reality, in this case by noting it's a claim. We don't state it as fact. The infobox needs to be tweaked accordingly. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I have tweaked the infobox. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Zero issue with that. I've just seen anti-theism brought in here in bursts and while it's not my faith, FTN is perfectly capable of acting dogmatically and sometimes that mixes with peoples' desire to take a religious group down a peg, which is where my discomfort with FTN's declaration of a part of religiosity as fringe rubbed me the wrong way. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 02:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
All people are saying is that dubious claims like "this guy died at the age of 900+" should not be treated as facts by Wikipedia. We know when Abraham Lincoln was born and when he died, but we do not know those things about Abraham. There are people who are convinced that they do know because the Bible says it, but their POV is just a POV, not NPOV. If you want to change that, you should go to Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. This noticeboard is just applying that, and it will continue applying it no matter how much people whine. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Just further to what Hob said above (with which I agree)--the unspoken converse is that there are claims in religious works which absolutely are not fringe. Was there a Cyrus the Great? No doubt, and the fact that he makes a cameo in the Hebrew Bible makes no difference. Some claims are what I would call uncertain, but not fringe. Was there a historical King David? The evidence is out for me, but I do not think the position that there was is fringe for our purposes. There are then claims, especially as they exist in incidental details completely unnecessary to the wider theology that strike me as easily classified as fringe. Methuselah's age being one. A literal Tower of Babel is another. I agree that we should not paint religion with a broad "fringe brush," but I think it is equally unreasonable to throw our hands up and say that it is all beyond human understanding. Just a Monday morning thought. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 14:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. My point is that, regardless of whether his purported age is a fringe claim or not, we still document that the Bible says it. That is a fact, and we are required to include the in-universe description, whether it's true or not. OTOH, the age is a claim, not a proven fact, and our wording should not leave the claim there as if it is a proven fact. Therefore, in this instance, "claim" (or something similar) is perfectly acceptable wording. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
If it is, for example, in a section called "Biblical narrative" or "In the Bible", that can be a solution. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Yes, that would help. I'm wondering if it would be allowable and helpful if we had some form of disclaimer statement visible in the heading/infobox/timeline that clearly says something like: "Wikipedia documents the existence of Biblical/pseudoscience/alternative medicine/conspiratorial (whichever word applies to the type of page) opinions and includes what reliable sources say about the accuracy of those opinions." We need to alert readers to the fact that there can be a disconnect between claims and facts. That's one of the functions of this FT/N board! We deal with that disconnect, but readers aren't always aware of it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
If such an infobox was headed something like "Hebrew Bible figure"/"Mythological figure", that might be enough. Then again, maybe not. Otherwise, it seems the infobox could use a section titled "According to scripture" or something like that, with data like for example Methuselah's age in it. "Disclaimer" is generally avoided here outside the main ones. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I am not suggesting the word "disclaimer" be used. It should be presented as information. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I would suggest "person" not "figure" to avoid overlap with the already existing mythical creature template (where to put a non-human, non-deity, sentient figure is going to be headache otherwise). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm guessing no matter the choice, figure/person/character etc, someone will not like it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
I’m not advocating that we take theological statements at face value because they’re theological, I’m saying that an attitude of “well of course this is fringe” is probably indelicate. I think that most of the people involved in this conversation are honestly doing pretty great on not behaving indelicately and most of the proposals I’ve seen here on how to address it seem really good. My concern more mirrors what @Horse Eye's Back said about FTN becoming a vehicle for a certain brand of atheistic skepticism, veering into a POV push. Of course we don’t need to present back-calculated ages of mythological figures as encyclopedic fact, but that doesn’t make that religious belief a “fringe theory.”
FTN does a really good job of tackling when ideologues come in and start trying to treat their theology as fact, and that seems to be a great use of FTN in this context. That said, there is a Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion, and once the pro-fringe content is removed and the article looks more encyclopedic we should probably make sure we have a more open dialogue with people there.
I do think there’s a contingent here openly engaging in bad faith on religious topics (“whining” about them, as it were) and I’ve dealt with this from users here before where they basically scare away new people as a matter of policy. There have been plenty of situations where I (and others here!) have had luck actually engaging with people and getting them to help engage in developing actually encyclopedic pages on their own theology, because at the end of the day very few people have as much insight on beliefs and practices as people who engage with beliefs and practices, as long as they can understand WP:RS. Just for reference, the extreme example jumping out at me is a bunch of FTN calling on Falun Gong members to openly put their affiliation as a prerequisite for editing Falun Gong related articles per WP:POV, or on connected contributor grounds, which got very heated until an admin came in and said something along the lines of “asking people to out their religious affiliation as a prerequisite for editing is not reasonable”. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 19:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
calling on Falun Gong members to openly put their affiliation as a prerequisite for editing Falun Gong related articles Big commendation from me for actually saying what you are talking about, instead of the previous aggressive but vague handwaving above about promoting a certain brand of atheistic skepticism and anti-fringe- fanaticism.
With the "promoting a brand" and "anti-fringe fanaticism" accusations, pretty much everybody here will ask themselves "are they talking about me rejecting the edit X in article Y?"
With your precise statement about a specific thing, we know exactly what to avoid if we want to heed your criticism. It's like the difference between "this article is biased!" and "The sentence X in the section Y does not represent what the cited source Z says." --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
You know I didn't actually say the "anti-fringe- fanaticism" part, right? That was @Animalparty. Can we have a mutual informal WP:IBAN, please?

Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Norse colonization of North America and Vinland

IP pushing fringe views. I’m at 3rr and won’t be reverting again of course. The first article has a cn which needs dealing with. Goodnight all. Doug Weller talk 20:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Zoroastrianism

An editor may be pushing fringe views that other religions were derived from Zoroastrianism. More eyes good at detecting questionable sources with pseudohistorical views might be useful. Skyerise (talk) 10:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

While additional editors with a background in history of religion, theology, and the arts and humanities are, of course, welcome I should note that I'm not entirely convinced the problem here is one of fringe sources so much as it is an editor with a fringe view engaging in selective quotation and misinterpretation of mainstream sources. I am currently engaged in a source review albeit it quite slowly because work has been difficult this week and I have limited time. Simonm223 (talk) 12:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
On which sections is this going on or which editor? Ramos1990 (talk) 19:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Dorothy Allison (psychic)

Looks like WP:FALSEBALANCE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a problem with the article, what am I missing? Sgerbic (talk) 17:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Many others considered her a fraud looked that way to me. But given that most psychic detectives probably believe in themselves, on second thought I was probably wrong. Well, at least this may have led to Schazjmd correcting the section order. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Glad you are thinking about this. I'm sure many people thought she and all psychics are frauds, but I think we would have to go with the RS that someone like Randi went to the trouble to investigate and talk about her. And many people probably thought she and most psychics are genuine. So I think keeping in the "many others" is fine. Sgerbic (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Unz Review

Anatoly Karlin a far-right writer of the antisemitic Unz Review has been removing a source that is critical of him and his friend Steve Sailer claiming the source is "vandalized bias" [36]. There may be trouble on this article so any extra eyes would be appreciated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Further disruption isn't really expected considering Karlin's points on the talk page from last month. Reconrabbit 19:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Fringe science claims in biography

More eyes would be appreciated, especially anyone familiar with Nigerian sources. JoelleJay (talk) 22:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

What the what what? I think you might start by going though the citations one by one and seeing if they say what they claim and if they are RS and seeing where you end up at when you have done them all. At least that is how I would approach this. Sorry, I'm working on another task and not much help otherwise. Sgerbic (talk) 23:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
In my experience Nigerian sources are not very good at investigating claims, and are often overly sensational. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Also his paper on a new state of water is pretty wild. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I agree that you should first check that the sources support the text. For example, the text says that his fire resistant paint prevents wood from burning while the source merely says he has made that claim.
The reason the source did not investigate his claims is probably that he is not that important. That's the reason for the notability policy: we should not create articles about people when crucial information about them is lacking. TFD (talk) 23:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Did I miss the announcement that Havana Syndrome is at WP:AE?

If I have, apologies. Doug Weller talk 17:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It is not anymore. Thread closed. Simonm223 (talk) 18:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
I closed it because it was already devolving into the same content discussion in yet another venue. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Simonm223 (talk) 18:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Flint Dibble on the Joe Rogan show discussing Hancock

https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/graham-hancock-joe-rogan-archaeology/[ Why I Talked to Pseudoarchaeologist Graham Hancock on Joe Rogan] I'm not sure if this would be useful as an EL anywhere, but it's interesting. The show itself was 3 hours long. Doug Weller talk 16:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

By Sapiens (magazine), perhaps an WP:ELMAYBE #4 at Joe Rogan? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
The journal, Archaeological Prospection, which published the now retracted Gunung Padang paper, just published a peer reviewed paper about "pseudoarchaeological colonialism" that includes Hancock. It is:
Wadsworth, W.T., Halmhofer, S. and Supernant, K., 2023.Saying what we mean, meaning what we say: Managing miscommunication in archaeological prospection. Archaeological Prospection. open access paper
The two examples of pseudoarchaeological colonialism that they discuss are "(1) denialism surrounding unmarked graves at former Indian Residential Schools and (2) the reinterpretation of Indigenous spaces by Graham Hancock's Ancient Apocalypse." Paul H. (talk) 16:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Female cosmetic coalitions

The article for Female cosmetic coalitions identifies it as a controversial theory, despite that, the article goes into a likely undue amount of detail about the “testable predictions of the model” with only two sentences at the end to cast any doubt on the theory, and those sentences neglect to elaborate on why that doubt exists. Some comments on the talk page also cast doubt on the theory (someone citing something in menstrual synchrony that goes against the theory and an IP editor that claims to be a biologist calling it nonsense) but I have no expertise in the field myself. MRN2electricboogaloo (talk) 04:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Looks like quite a bit has been added and much of it relies on a small number of sources, I'll have to take a good look at the edits, but I'm also rather ignorant on this topic so I can't yet speak to its neutrality. Lostsandwich (talk) 08:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Havana syndrome again

Just taken a look at this after a while, and ...

My view

... am troubled to see what appears to me to be a rambling mess, including a huge "chronology" section which seems to be a collection of every possible WP:NEWSPRIMARY source airing speculation. Needless to say there's a now a clamour to include the latest "it's the Ruksies!" news tidbit that's doing the rounds. Meanwhile the most authoriative sources haven't switched from their position of Havana Syndrome probably not being a real thing caused by external factors outside the imagination of those who have it. More eyes probably could help. (Update: Now the article says "The March 2024 60 Minutes installment [sic] offered the first direct proof of the Russians' culpability ...") Bon courage (talk) 16:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC); 18:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, it seems some editors are taking the 60 Minutes report [37] as ultimate vindication for their own long held beliefs. The fact that the show made claims appears to be well sourced and deserves a mention, but representing its conclusions as compelling, authoritative, or the new mainstream position...is not justified. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Did anyone tell those journalists that a weak correlation is not necessarily indicative of causation? It all seems very circumstantial. Simonm223 (talk) 18:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
You're correct to revert edits alleging the 60 minutes report is definitive but you shouldn't keep reverting edits that simply quote the claims in the report and the responses from a WP:NPOV using WP:SECONDARY. The development clearly belongs in the article given that it was significant enough that both the Director of National Intelligence and the Russian Government responded to it. ChaseK (talk) 19:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Exactly {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 23:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
My edit never made out the 60 Minutes report to be absolute truth, I detailed that it contained allegations by fairly reliable sources, but did not claim it as authoritative or the mainstream position. The article already contained content of similar substance and it wasn't challenged. — THORNFIELD HALL (Talk) 22:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Wow, that's a long article about something I've never heard of. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Just glancing at the reports in question, asserting a cause of a medical condition would definitely need secondary WP:MEDRS sources. I'm seeing a lot of common misconceptions trying to zero on on the news reports being secondary sources and entirely missing that point. Definitely good to hold back attempts to insert those sources from a weight perspective, and especially WP:NOTNEWS policy. KoA (talk) 22:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

News reports as secondary sources for attributed claims, in the absence of high quality medical sources is entirely acceptable. No causes for this disputed medical condition were "asserted" as fact. FailedMusician (talk) 08:42, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
News reports as secondary sources for attributed claims ← huh? primary sources do not magically become secondary (or usable) by attribution. The last editor who tried this line of argument (about another fringe subject: lab leak) ended up blocked. We can't allow fringe material into Wikipedia just by trick of putting "Dr X says ..." in front of it. Bon courage (talk) 08:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I did not claim primary sources become secondary sources. Only that they are usable for attributed claims, in the absence of high quality medical sources, in which is a part medical and political subject. FailedMusician (talk) 08:52, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
They may be useful for occasional careful use to touch in details, but the basis of the article must be secondary sourcing, particularly to establish any themes which are discussed. Bon courage (talk) 08:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I think the problem is that, through a combination of recency and the involvement of the notoriously non-forthcoming US intelligence apparatus, there is a dearth of WP:MEDRS compliant secondary sources. I'm increasingly of the opinion that the best solution is likely to stubify the article. Because right now a lot of people are calling for one standard for journalists stories of magic Russian guns and another standard for people saying, "the subjects of this condition don't appear to have any sort of injuries." Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
What magic guns? I don't remember either magic or guns from any of the reporting on this. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
The alleged radio frequency weapons that don't exist. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 18:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Radio frequency and microwave weapons do exist, lets not get ahead of ourselves and exaggerate here. To use a different example I see on that page there is a difference between saying that crickets likely weren't the cause and that crickets are fictional creatures. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Source that radio frequency weapons have been used to cause nonlethal Havana Syndrome like effects? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Either you are responding to someone else or you are being disruptive. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
There is no reliable source to suggest that radio frequency weapons have been seen to cause a symptom cluster that matches Havana Syndrome. That's what makes this science fiction. Just like Quantum Teleportation being a thing doesn't mean that Transporter (Star Trek) is a real technology. Simonm223 (talk) 14:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
If its existing or close to existing technology isn't that just fiction? Why isn't saying its fiction enough? Why is using hyperbole like magic or science fiction appropriate? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
It isn't close to existing technology. Microwave/radio weapons are vehicle mounted affairs that have large power requirements and don't cause effects that are anything like the symptoms being reported here. Not just in terms of scale and range (neither of which fit) but in terms of the type of effect. MrOllie (talk) 15:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't believe that anyone has alleged hand-held gun like weapons to exist but perhaps I missed something, where was this reported? My understanding is that the idea is more that this was just a modern version of the Moscow Signal (complete with a lack of real medical conclusions because those human studies just can't be performed effectively in an ethical manner). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
The Moscow Signal was very low power. That is not what is being alleged here. And I think that the embassy workers would have noticed a big truck parked nearby running a diesel generator with a large dish antenna pointed at them, or even such a thing installed on a nearby building. MrOllie (talk) 15:22, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Is there allegation that there is a handheld weapon, an allegation that there is a truck mounted weapon, or are these some sort of hypothetical or thought experiment? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:46, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
It's all a thought experiment. There's no evidence of any weapon. Which is the whole point. Simonm223 (talk) 16:47, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
We don't care about evidence, we don't do original research. We do care about allegations or unknowns which have been reported extensively in reliable sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
A number of sources have commented on the physics involved and how much power would be required (a few are already cited in the article). The main point of those sources was that doing such a thing covertly is impossible. What's currently going on on the article is that claims in lower-quality media sources are being placed in false equivalence with these scientific sources. (as well as the medical sourcing about plausibility of the symptoms being caused by RF at all). MrOllie (talk) 16:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
The claim being discussed here is Simon223's claim that there are magic guns involved. They have presented no sources which suggest that this is a theory, fringe or otherwise, held by anyone. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:02, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
'magic guns' is a fair summary of what has been showing up in the lower-quality media sources. MrOllie (talk) 17:10, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
My apologies then, I had not (and still have not) seen that reporting in lower-quality media sources. It is not part of the 60 Minutes piece. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:02, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

My complaint with the 60 minutes piece is that it contains almost no detail about causes beyond a vague allusion to "acoustic weapons" but it's being used like some sort of silver bullet that "it really was the russkies all along" as opposed to the more likely causes: stress, ptsd, alcohol, etc. I don't want to include the 60 minutes causal claims in part because of their extreme vagueness and in part because they do nothing to establish any sort of reason why we should believe "acoustic weapons" to be the cause.

However I do also, occasionally, get somewhat sarcastic when I'm frustrated by obvious woo invading journalism to move copy and fan neo-cold-war paranoia. And thus, rather than writing out, "secret weapons with no clear functional mechanism for covert deployment depending on technologies that are not known to produce the expected symptom set" every time, I shortened it to "magic guns on occasion."
If you see me refer to "magic guns," in this context, you can assume I mean, "secret weapons with no clear functional mechanism for covert deployment depending on technologies that are not known to produce the expected symptom set." Simonm223 (talk) 18:15, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
You seem to be putting a lot of your personal POV and bias into this. I agree with @Horse Eye's Back: let's stick to reliable sources and what they say, which is the only thing that matters. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 08:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Sarcasm does not invalidate my critique - which I put in clear, non-sarcastic, terms repeatedly in this comment. I do think it is non-neutral to treat journalistic fanning of neo-cold-war claims as appropriate information for an encyclopedia article on a medical condition.
I also think it's most likely that the AHIs represent a cluster of PTSD and stress related cases. However you will note I have not argued against the inclusion of the review that disagrees with that position at article talk and, in fact, clearly said both were appropriate and reliable. Simonm223 (talk) 12:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
What does "no clear functional mechanism for covert deployment" mean in this context? I can't parse it even though its a field which I understand, would Unit 29155 be the functional mechanism? Or by functional mechanism are we talking like backpack vs crate? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
How is Russia hiding a van with a diesel generator in it rolling down the streets of Washington DC and many other hostile venues? For that matter how are they managing it in China which, despite being less hostile to Russia, is generally down on foreign spies from any country driving around with large experimental weapons. Simonm223 (talk) 16:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Who said that Russia needed a van with a diesel generator? That doesn't answer what functional mechanism means though, thats not a term generally associated with either military or intel... I've literally never seen it used in this context. As best I understand the allegation is that the GRU was the functional mechanism for covert deployment[38]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
OK so we've got a few possibilities: either it's an RF weapon that follows what we know about such weapons as they exist: large and requiring a lot of power. Or it's a miniature portable RF weapon - which is science fictional. Circling back to the source in question again, such vagaries are the problem. How is the GRU hiding this secret weapon? Because, generally, if something can be explained either by a condition that we understand well, fits the symptomology, and is a likely thing to be experienced by people in a stressful line of work, that is more likely than a secret weapon that nobody has ever seen and that seems to have properties that defy what we know about that kind of weaponry. Let's leave aside hair splitting about word choice. Simonm223 (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
What are you talking about? There are at this point dozens if not hundreds of miniature portable RF weapons (DRAKE for example). The allegation is not that the GRU succeeded in hiding this "secret weapon," the allegation is the opposite... That they failed and now we're talking about it. There are a lot of weapons out there that nobody (in the public at least) has seen, take for example the Yun Feng... Is it fringe to assert that it exists without any actual evidence? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
And to my understanding not a single one of them would do anything like the symptoms of Havana Syndrome. Simonm223 (talk) 17:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Well thats a rather large difference in understanding in just ten minutes... At 17:03 you weren't aware of their existence and by 17:13 you're speaking authoritatively on them. Some of them would do something like the symptoms of Havana Syndrome, just generally with other symptoms as well (that is the primary argument against it). Name and presentation aside I don't think you're a weapons expert. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
I am genuinely sorry to interrupt, but this has been of some interest to me as not only a non-weapons expert, but I think it is fair that I claim the title of a weapons dum-dum. That said, HEB, can you point me to reports of 'known' weapons that are sort of closest to the hypothesized Havana Syndrome weapon? I would very much appreciate it. Happy Friday, all. Dumuzid (talk) 17:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Well then let me hopelessly confuse you... Nobody can decide what sort of weapon we're talking about here... You will notice that in this discussion we've bounced around between RF weapons, microwave weapons (which in some systems are a subtype of RF weapons and in others are treated as a distinct category), and acoustic weapons (which I believe is the 60 Minutes/Insider/Der Speigel allegation). There also isn't in general agreement on which set of symptoms actually constitutes Havana Syndrome, but a large number of the minor ones (the major ones are alleged to only present in the long term) are replicable with something like a LRAD or better still the related consumer products [39] (these are examples of the "acoustic" claims which are the ones I think we're primarily discussing vis-a-vis 60 Minutes). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:36, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Very cool, now you are doing WP:OR to say that Russia is able to secretly use... *checks notes* huge LRAD type systems covertly and citing a 600 view Youtube video of a speaker. This is why these claims should not be in the article, because they encourage this exact type of speculative behavior. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
They make small LRAD systems... They do not make huge ones. An acoustic weapon is for all intents and purposes a speaker. This is not "my" theory, this is advanced by the reliable sources under discussion here (personally I'm agnostic as to cause, not enough science yet done to support anything conclusively). I would appreciate it if you could dial back the aggression a bit, we don't need to hyperbole, sarcasm, and personal attacks. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
I see LRAD systems mounted on military transports, ships, and facilities, all of which have the capacity to use high-power. What you are proposing is a covert LRAD type system which can also highly target individuals - again, no evidence for that. I am not being aggressive or hyperbolic, I am stating my observations of your commentary on this matter. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 20:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
There are handheld LRAD models[40], the technology is not limited by size. I'm not proposing anything. Please do not misrepresent me. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
This type of comment is just WP:BATTLEGROUND vibes - what are you even trying to accomplish with this conversation? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
I believe this discussion serves to remind editors to avoid hyperbolic language to push a POV, in line with Wikipedia's guidelines. FailedMusician (talk) 15:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
FailedMusician, like I advised you at ANI, you need to step back from the battleground attitude, even back-handed ones like this. KoA (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Calling that a personal attack is absurd. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 16:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
That's not what I said. The sniping/battleground attitude is an issue though, and lashing out at those trying to get others to knock it off isn't helpful. KoA (talk) 19:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
This appears to be an antic for your ANI performance. I don't think administrators respond well to this kind of open lobbying. FailedMusician (talk) 20:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
What lobbying? Calling out your behavior is not lobbying, nor is the ANI post a "performance" - try to understand that Wikipedia is a collaborative platform. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Do you or @KoA have any comments on content? Isn't that what this noticeboard is for? FailedMusician (talk) 21:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
That is not how MEDRS works at all. News sources are generally unreliable for medical topics. You might use a news sources as a supplement lay description when secondary medical sources are already used for a specific piece of content. It's a common misconception that news sources satisfy the secondary source requirement for MEDRS content. KoA (talk) 16:30, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I personally agree with you. My concern is what has emerged at the article talk is to treat WP:MEDRS as strictly enforced for medical claims but as irrelevant for political / espionage related claims. This is creating an undue focus on journalistic speculation as to possible causes excluding what academics and doctors might have to say about them. For instance: the recent collaboration between three media outlets that led to increased attention on this page includes claims that Russian assassins! are responsible for Havana Syndrome on the basis, largely, of flight logs, and the speculation that a microwave weapon might be possible. The general consensus of the studies of people who have suffered Havana Syndrome is that any microwave weapon that would be sufficiently powerful to cause the indicated symptoms would also cause other symptons but because these are primary sources they're being disregarded for medical evidence while the other story is being highlighted as non-medical / political content. I simply want consistent standards for the article. Simonm223 (talk) 16:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, that's why I suggested leading with a draft of just a MEDRS summary of the subject at the article talk page. Hopefully that would ground and anything that would come in from the political aspect. If something from those news sources contradicted or wasn't covered by MEDRS sources, it wouldn't matter if they also had a political angle because it's still (usually) focusing on claims about a medical condition. There could be brief mention of those latter aspects, but MEDRS would be determining weight for that periphery as well. Basically, develop a MEDRS core, then let that anchor all other content discussion, and you wouldn't need to stubify for that either.
Edit warring is part of the issue there too though. I'm seeing a lot of restoring content in violation of WP:ONUS policy that's hampering content development. I would have been a bit more prone to help out there more when I have some spare time, but it looks like it would take significant effort to get the article improved with that compounding factor. KoA (talk) 16:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
  • The general consensus of the studies of people who have suffered Havana Syndrome is that any microwave weapon that would be sufficiently powerful to cause the indicated symptoms would also cause other symptons but because these are primary sources they're being disregarded for medical evidence while the other story is being highlighted as non-medical / political content. I think that this is a situation where WP:PARITY would apply, allowing us to cite sources we usually wouldn't use for medical claims (but which are still better than the news sources in question) in order to establish that the perspective in the news sources is medically fringe. --Aquillion (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
    That would be a good case-by-case approach for parity, though I'd be wary about feeling the need to debunk something through parity (not necessarily commenting on microwave weapons here) compared to just not mentioning the subject at all from a weight perspective. The latter is often a better option to avoid some rabbit holes when possible. I think that's why the focus there needs to be shifted to the MEDRS sources that grounds conversations to determine where cases like you mention should be included. That's opposed to including something just because a lot of news agencies picked up stories and trying to weight that without letting the MEDRS content lead development instead. Obviously easier said than done, but doable with time at least. KoA (talk) 17:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't see it as a MEDRS issue if all theories about causes are properly attributed. The problem only arises when editors latch onto one theory and start claiming in wikivoice that the problem has been solved. This can be addressed by editing properly, with every claim that isn't accepted by expert consensus being attributed to whoever is making the claim. Zerotalk 13:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
This presents another problem though as such an action would be giving equal weight to the primary-source medical reports put out by a variety of neurologists, epidemiologists, specialists and even the CDC and... journalists who don't know that correlation != causation. Because this is the thing. WP:MEDRS prefers secondary academic sources, not journalism. And what we have is a preponderance of primary academic sources, which are still more reliable than newsmedia. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
If something isn't covered in MEDRS sources or is covered differently in non-MEDRS sources, then that becomes a WP:WEIGHT issue. In cases like you mention, that's a likely case for not including the content at all. KoA (talk) 16:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
How's this for a start? Proposed draft Simonm223 (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

In general I would leave specific discussion on the article content to the article page. No point in separately discussing it here. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 11:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Disagree as it raises wider questions about WP:MEDRS and interpretation/inclusion of media theories that require acceptance of fringe medical theories. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 02:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Those points are fine but already well established (although not all editors are aware). This noticeboard can’t and shouldn’t modify WP:MEDRS. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 04:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
If any editor is having qualms about MEDRS they can raise a query at WT:MED. I won't as I am confident enough in its application and don't want to waste their time. I get the impression from some of the discussion (like incredulous questions about how NYT can possibly be called unreliable) that some of the editors taking issue with MEDRS have not actually read it. Bon courage (talk) 08:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
  • some editors are taking the 60 Minutes report as ultimate vindication for their own long held beliefs is not a policy-based argument to remove sourced content. The "syndrome" here does not mean any real (scientifically proven) medical condition; one can not even properly describe what that condition is. This is not really a medical subject, but rather a political controversy. Yes, there were also some scientific studies that did not convincingly prove anything, and they can or should also be cited on the page per WP:NPOV. My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
    We should not be weighting journalists the same as doctors on a page about a purported medical condition. Simonm223 (talk) 16:59, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
    Seems like the same situation as COVID-19 lab leak theory. Top medical sources say one thing, but there's a vocal minority or even majority of journalists saying another thing. That really confuses Wikipedians that don't specialize in MEDRS or FRINGE. We of course need to write the article around the medical sources, and not give UNDUE weight to circumstantial evidence and non-expert medical opinions. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
It's not really surprising that most journalists, especially in the US, prefer the conspiracy theories about the Havana Syndrome to what MEDRS sources say. Over 2500 years ago Aeschylus said, "In war, truth is the first casualty". That was certainly true in the Cold War as well. Now we have a new Cold War, with the same enemies (Russia and China). So the fringe theories about the origins of Covid and the Havana Syndrome make good copy in the US press. NightHeron (talk) 22:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
gotta get those clicks! LegalSmeagolian (talk) 23:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
After reading about it, I have no doubts that many people became sick. If this is a specific disease with specific cause(s) was not scientifically established. I do not see any theory, even "fringe" behind it. This is just something that needs to be studied more to clarify the issue, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 02:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
There are several medical condition (like Electromagnetic hypersensitivity) which are "real", but aren't caused by what proponents say. In this case the fringe notion is a new kind of exotic energy weapon with a hitherto unknown biological mechanism/effect. Bon courage (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
The report in 60 Minutes is significant to the topic and should be covered. It was obvious from the start that Havana Syndrome wasn't real but its significance lay in the fact some people believed it to be true and it was used as political propaganda. Many of the claims that have driven world events have turned out to be false but are significant because of their consequences. There were for example no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but we don't remove the claim from the history of the war just because the claims failed MEDRS. TFD (talk) 00:57, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
WMDs in Iraq had nothing to do with medical claims - we also explicitly note that the claim was erroneous in the WMD/Iraq article, as should be done here. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 01:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
The report in 60 minutes should not be used as a source to establish a cause of Havana Syndrome. And the information put up on government responses seemed rote and mundane. But I'm not opposed to its mention; so long as the mention focuses on the social significance of the report rather than the factual significance of it. Simonm223 (talk) 12:42, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Nobody knows the factual significance of it. Just stick to the reliable sources and report what they say. We don’t need to figure it out ourselves WP:OR. At the moment: nobody knows what is going on. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  talk 19:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
If no one knows what going on, over reporting potential misinformation is WP:UNDUE. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Precisely. And also reliability isn't a blanket Yes / No switch. This is part of the problem with a lot of the discussion on that page. There is a small group of editors who think that if the 60 minutes source is due any inclusion at all then we have to go into exhaustive detail about their claims. But the journalists who wrote that report are not reliable sources to speak to the cause of an illness. We should not be using the report as a reliable source for discussing the cause of the illness. Which means we should not be discussing Russian radio blasters from the basis of the 60 minutes report. However it's pretty clear it was a notable report in that it stirred up a bunch of controversy and, apparently (pending provision of a reliable source for this) got a bunch of gullible US senators all riled up. That's how we should be positioning this report. Simonm223 (talk) 19:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, but biological weapons have a lot to do with medical claims. So do chemical and to a lesser degree nuclear weapons because they have medical effects on people exposed to them. The reason MEDRS did not apply was that the issue was whether or not Iraq had them and whether or not they would use them, which is exactly the situation with the sonar guns Russia supposedly had.
MEDRS btw is an elastic policy. TFD (talk) 21:32, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Glenn Miller

Seeking input on whether to mention the 'friendly fire' conspiracy theory surrounding Glenn Miller's death, as well as its debunking. AbsoluteWissen (talk) 03:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_99&oldid=1224476080"
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