Wikipedia talk:WikiProject London Transport

Underneath the arches

(Reposted from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways, where there was no response.)

In urban Britain, railway arches are almost ubiquitous. Searching online finds no end of shops in arches, cafes in arches, businesses run in arches, light industry in arches, arches for rent - almost all contemporary.

But railway arches have been around for at least 187 years. A search on WP finds them all over the place, but the information is all scattered. Does any one know of a history, or other deeper analysis, of railway arches? Sadly, this documentary is focussed on the homeless people in the arches, not the architecture - but they are still part of the bigger picture.

So: a book? website? PhD thesis? Photo essay? Radio or TV documentary? Is there anything out there that gives the arches the attention they surely deserve? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 16:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Reposted to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 18:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on the ref desk resulted in Draft:Railway arches in London being started. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 17:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

No progress: I have therefore Userfied the article to User:Verbarson/Railway arches in London, awaiting time and resources to chase it up. If anyone else wants to take it on, feel free. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 13:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Tube interior to be identified

Here is a c1970 image of the interior of a Tube service. Any ideas about the line? I think I can make out "Central" by magnifying the line map in the upper left corner, but it doesn't exactly tie up with a 1970 Underground map. Lamberhurst (talk) 22:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

It's the Northern line. A long branch at one end, then a split into two lines that rejoin, a single station (Camden Town) then another split at the other end. No other line was that complicated. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 23:33, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Lamberhurst (talk) 18:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

The image is reversed. It appears to be the Northern line on the maps above the doors, but it's actually the District line and Circle line. The closest map on the left (right if corrected) shows the Ealing, Richmond and Wimbledon branches with the top of the image cutting through Earl's Court. The carriage is an R Stock carriage (see File:Inside-R-NDM.jpg). The small label underneath says "To open window pull down handle" which would not have been practicable or safe on a tube carriage. --DavidCane (talk) 23:31, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Er, lots of tube stock had pull-down windows, see the rightmost two windows in this pic of 1938 Stock. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:05, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

It didn't occur to me that the map might combine two lines, but I should have noticed the height of the carriage. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 11:27, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes; I should have said that with the way the R Stock carriage windows projected from the side of the carriage, that wouldn't have worked on a tube carriage.DavidCane (talk) 20:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Accessibility of transport in London

Hi all, I'm working on an expansive draft article on accessibility of transport in London – in a similar style to articles for NYC, Boston and Toronto. Still got a fair bit to go – currently writing the 2010s and 2020s. A few bits that I'd like help on:

• I'm particularly struggling with photos – lifts and wheelchair ramps are not usually photographed, and I haven't found a good photo of the height of the "step" at the rear of a Routemaster, or entry of a high-floor London bus. Managed to get a cabbie to show me his wheelchair ramp though! Suggestions welcome, even for things I should go and photograph myself!
• When did Tottenham Hale LU become accessible with lifts to the Victoria line platforms?
• Did any other stations get retrofitted with lifts for step-free access before 2000?

Other than that, comments on the draft are welcome! Turini2 (talk) 15:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Based on this blurry Routemaster drawing (which is a metricated version of this even more blurry image), the height to the top of the step appears to be about 1' 4" (406 mm).--DavidCane (talk) 20:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The earliest map I have that shows step-free access is dated August 2006 and Tottenham Hale LU is already step-free at that point. I've not found anything more Thryduulf (talk) 14:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It appears to have been installed in 1999. Clive's Underground Line Guides has a list of all the lifts on the network. Going back to the earliest version of the page archived on the Wayback Machine (date stamped 20 January 2000), there is a list of lifts as at 31 December 1998 which does not include a lift at Tottenham Hale. The page archived on 18 June 2000 (date stamped 22 May 2000) has a list of lifts as at 31 December 1999, which does include a lift at Tottenham Hale DavidCane (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

According to page 203 of The Story of London's Underground (Day, John R; Reed, John (2010) [1963]. 11th ed. Capital Transport. ISBN 978-1-85414-341-9), the lift works and improvements to the station ticket hall were funded by a £4.5 million investment from Haringey Council and the European Union. It was one of the first step free projects.--DavidCane (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Much appreciated, thank you! Turini2 (talk) 12:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The article is now live at Accessibility of transport in London - edits and links to it welcome! Turini2 (talk) 12:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

And was in Did you know yesterday! Thanks for all your help on this! Turini2 (talk) 10:48, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Bus maps

Hi all - @Dr. British12 has added a map of bus stops and stations to Kingston bus stations. I'm personally not a fan (especially given the mobile website incompatibility) - but wanted to gain wider thought on the map before I revert it. Turini2 (talk) 09:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@Ajf773 has now reverted this. Turini2 (talk) 13:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Albert Redux!

8 August is the 150th anniversary of the birth of Lord Ashfield Chairman of the Underground Electric Railways Company of London from 1910 to 1933 and Chairman of the London Passenger Transport Board from 1933 to 1947. Having previously been a Today's Featured Article in 2011 it has been selected to make a rare second appearance as Today's Featured Article on the main page that day. DavidCane (talk) 09:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Map inaccuracy

I hope this is the right place to post. I came across File:London north-south circulars.svg and it had a note about factual accuracy disputed. On the talk page someone said that the north-eastern bit is not exactly accurate, and after a quick look on maps I think they have a valid argument. It was posted back in 2022 and nobody has replied, so I am raising it here for attention and for anyone who wants to check and maybe correct the lines on the map. Plarety2 (talk) 22:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The image is hosted at Commons, so technically doesn't exist here on English Wikipedia. Its talk page is c:File talk:London north-south circulars.svg. However, File talk:London north-south circulars.svg also exists here - its content should be moved to Commons. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I've changed the background which was woeful and positioned the roads so they more closely correspond to reality.DavidCane (talk) 20:32, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for British Airways

British Airways has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Notability of Croydon Tramlink stops

It appears we currently have no List of Tramlink stops, which would probably be a helpful navigation aide regardless. At present, all stops have a standalone article but I'm not convinced that most of them meet the general notability guideline (ie that each individual stop has been written about in depth). Most of them are short articles (between one sentence and a couple of paragraphs) and contain no third-party sources at all. I have looked for coverage of George Street tram stop (because it's currently at AfD) and found mentions but nothing substantial, which leads to two questions: first, is there coverage out there that I haven't found that members of this project might have access to, and if not, how best do we go about merging the articles? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

This was previously discussed at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Streetcars#RfC: Notability and Tramlink stops which concluded that "There does not seem to be any consensus whether these stops are/not notable by themselves".

In terms of coverage, the Tramlink handbook (ISBN 978-1854142221) discusses the stops, but ... they are just stops, it's not substantial detail. In my opinion, the vast majority of the stops are not notable - other than ones that used to be stations. Turini2 (talk) 18:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

We definitely should have a List of Tramlink stops with at least basic details about each, We could either model it after List of London Underground stations (adjusting the columns as needed), or have a short prose section for each stop (effectively merging the stub articles into one combined article. Both might be possible, but it might be too much for a single article - in which case we could have two articles or the prose-style could be split (Wimbledon-Wandle Park; Sandilands, Lebanon Road and the loop; Lloyd Park to New Addington; and Addiscombe to Beckenham Junction and Elmers End would be the obvious divisions but I don't have any suggestions for naming ottomh). Obviously we should link to any standalone articles or sections that exist (regardless of whether they should).

Beckenham Junction, Elmers End, Birkbeck, East Croydon, West Croydon, Mitcham Junction and Wimbledon should be, and from a quick look, apparently are covered on the article about the railway stations with the same name (Wimbledon, Birkbeck and Elmers End are unambiguously part of the station), and any that were previously heavy rail stations should almost certainly have a single article to cover both. Addiscombe tram stop could perhaps be merged with Bingham Road railway station and similar could be considered for other stops on/adjacent to the site of former stations.

Tramlink#Stops could probably be expanded slightly to discuss the different types of stops (e.g. on and off street, integrated into the station), or this could become part of a prose introduction to the list?

I think it's probably worth getting this/these list(s) set up (after agreement on structure) as a first step and then consider the notability of individual stops as we'll then know what the overlap between current articles and the list(s) is and the merge target will exist for any that are found not to be notable. Thryduulf (talk) 20:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Another example would Line 6 Finch West in Toronto - a substantial table in the article that sets out what the stops are, their configuration, any relevant notes and transport connections. In that article, two of the stops have articles due to the size, location and therefore notability. Turini2 (talk) 21:07, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I would support the creation of an article similar to List of Manchester Metrolink tram stops for the Tramlink. However, for the sake of consistency, all should be linked to that page unless they form part of an open station. I would oppose merging any of the Tramlink articles into existing closed station articles. Bingham Road station and Addiscombe tram stop are very different creatures: one was on a 20ft embankment by an overbridge, the other is at street level some distance away. A mention of the tram stop in the closed station article is enough. The same would go for Coombe Lane and Lloyd Park. Lamberhurst (talk) 08:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The Metrolink list is a very good one to use as a guide. Thankfully Tramlink is a smaller system so should be less of an undertaking. I also agree that Tramlink stops should be treated as separate entities to long-disused stations unless they're on almost exactly the same site/trackbed (and we should defer to the sources on how we treat them). Once the list exists in a useful state, we should probably redirect all the individual articles to it, except possibly those that are part of a National Rail station. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:05, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

All the stops that are part of an NR station and covered on that article redirect there (e.g. Wimbledon tram stop → Wimbledon station, Birkbeck tram stop → Birkbeck station) and I wouldn't change that. For the rest I'd only redirect if a BEFORE failed to find anything - I suspect it will in most cases, but my guess isn't a substitute for looking. Thryduulf (talk) 22:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable to take a representative sample as a basis for redirecting the whole lot. The history will be fully preserved so there's no barrier to someone re-creating the article if they find sources we've missed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)