PARLIAMENTARY

DEBATES
(HANSARD)

SIXTH SERIES—VOLUME 669

HOUSE OF COMMONS
OFFICIAL REPORT

FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT

OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN
AND NORTHERN IRELAND
SIXTY-EIGHTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

SESSION 2019 - 2021

COMPRISING PERIOD
17 December 2019—16 January 2020
 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020
This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence,
which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/.
 House of Commons
Alphabetical List of Members
[Returned at the General Election, 12 December 2019]

A Blackford, Rt Hon. Ian (Ross, Skye and Lochaber)

(SNP)
Abbott, Rt Hon. Diane Julie (Hackney North and Stoke Blackman, Robert John (Harrow East) (Con)
Newington) (Lab) Blackman, Kirsty Ann (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Abrahams, Deborah Angela Elspeth Marie (Oldham Blake Dagnall, Olivia Frances (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab)
East and Saddleworth) (Lab) Blomfield, Paul Christopher (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
Adams, Nigel (Selby and Ainsty) (Con) Blunt, Crispin Jeremy Rupert (Reigate) (Con)
Afolami, Abimbola (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con) Bone, Peter William (Wellingborough) (Con)
Afriyie, Adam (Windsor) (Con) Bonnar, Steven (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill)
Ahmad Khan, Imran Nasir (Wakefield) (Con) (SNP)
Aiken, Nicola Jane (Cities of London and Westminster) Bottomley, Sir Peter James (Worthing West) (Con)
(Con) Bowie, Andrew Campbell (West Aberdeenshire and
Aldous, Peter James Guy (Waveney) (Con) Kincardine) (Con)
Ali, Rushanara (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab) Brabin, Tracy Lynn (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op)
Ali, Tahir (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab) Bradley, Benjamin David (Mansfield) (Con)
Allan, Lucy (Telford) (Con) Bradley, Rt Hon. Karen Anne (Staffordshire Moorlands)
Allin-Khan, Rosena Chantelle (Tooting) (Lab) (Con)
Amesbury, Michael Lee (Weaver Vale) (Lab) Bradshaw, Rt Hon. Benjamin Peter James (Exeter) (Lab)
Amess, Sir David Anthony Andrew (Southend West) Brady, Sir Graham Stuart (Altrincham and Sale West)
(Con) (Con)
Anderson, Fleur (Putney) (Lab) Brady, Michael (Newry and Armagh) (SF)
Anderson, Lee (Ashfield) (Con) Braverman, Sue-Ellen Cassiana (Fareham) (Con)
Anderson, Stuart Paul (Wolverhampton South West) Brennan, Kevin Denis (Cardiff West) (Lab)
(Con) Brereton, Jack Edgar (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)
Andrew, Stuart James (Pudsey) (Con) Bridgen, Andrew James (North West Leicestershire)
Ansell, Caroline (Eastbourne) (Con) (Con)
Antoniazzi, Antonia Louise (Gower) (Lab) Brine, Stephen Charles (Winchester) (Con)
Argar, Edward John Comport (Charnwood) (Con) Bristow, Paul (Peterborough) (Con)
Ashworth, Jonathan Michael Graham (Leicester South) Britcliffe, Sara Alice (Hyndburn) (Con)
(Lab/Co-op) Brock, Deidre Leanne (Edinburgh North and Leith)
Atherton, Sarah Elizabeth (Wrexham) (Con) (SNP)
Atkins, Victoria Mary (Louth and Horncastle) (Con) Brokenshire, Rt Hon. James Peter (Old Bexley and
Sidcup) (Con)
Brown, Alan (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
B Brown, Lyn Carol (West Ham) (Lab)
Bacon, Gareth Andrew (Orpington) (Con) Brown, Rt Hon. Nicholas Hugh (Newcastle upon Tyne
Bacon, Richard Michael (South Norfolk) (Con) East) (Lab)
Badenoch, Olukemi Olufunto (Saffron Walden) (Con) Browne, Anthony Howe (South Cambridgeshire) (Con)
Bailey, Shaun Stephen (West Bromwich West) (Con) Bruce, Fiona Claire (Congleton) (Con)
Baillie, Siobhan Kathleen (Stroud) (Con) Bryant, Christopher John (Rhondda) (Lab)
Baker, Duncan Charles (North Norfolk) (Con) Buchan, Felicity Christiana (Kensington) (Con)
Baker, Steven John (Wycombe) (Con) Buck, Karen Patricia (Westminster North) (Lab)
Baldwin, Harriett Mary Morison (West Worcestershire) Buckland, Rt Hon. Robert James (South Swindon)
(Con) (Con)
Barclay, Rt Hon. Stephen Paul (North East Burghart, Michael Alex (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
Cambridgeshire) (Con) Burgon, Richard (Leeds East) (Lab)
Bardell, Hannah Mary (Livingston) (SNP) Burns, Rt Hon. Conor (Bournemouth West) (Con)
Barker, Paula (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab) Butler, Dawn Petula (Brent Central) (Lab)
Baron, John Charles (Basildon and Billericay) (Con) Butler, Robert (Aylesbury) (Con)
Baynes, Simon Robert Maurice (Clwyd South) (Con) Byrne, Ian Robert (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)
Beckett, Rt Hon. Margaret Mary (Derby South) (Lab) Byrne, Rt Hon. Liam Dominic (Birmingham, Hodge
Begley, Órfhlaith Acife (West Tyrone) (SF) Hill) (Lab)
Begum, Apsana (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
Bell, Aaron Stuart (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con) C
Benn, Rt Hon. Hilary James (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Benton, Scott Lloyd (Blackpool South) (Con) Cadbury, Ruth Margaret (Brentford and Isleworth)
Beresford, Sir Alexander Paul (Mole Valley) (Con) (Lab)
Berry, Rt Hon. James Jacob Gilchrist (Rossendale and Cairns, Rt Hon. Alun Hugh (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Darwen) (Con) Callaghan, Amy (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
Betts, Clive James Charles (Sheffield South East) (Lab) Cameron, Lisa (East Kilbride, Strathaven and
Bhatti, Mohammad Saqib (Meriden) (Con) Lesmahagow) (SNP)
Black, Mhairi (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Campbell, Rt Hon. Sir Alan Hugh (Tynemouth) (Lab)
viii Alphabetical List of Members 19 DECEMBER 2019 Alphabetical List of Members

Campbell, Gregory Lloyd (East Londonderry) (DUP) Davies, Philip Andrew (Shipley) (Con)
Carden, Daniel Joseph (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab) Davies-Jones, Alexandra Mary (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Carmichael, Rt Hon. Alexander Morrison (Orkney and Davis, Rt Hon. David Michael (Haltemprice and
Shetland) (LD) Howden) (Con)
Carter, Andrew John (Warrington South) (Con) Davison, Dehenna Sheridan (Bishop Auckland) (Con)
Cartlidge, James Roger (South Suffolk) (Con) Day, Martyn (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
Cash, Sir William Nigel Paul (Stone) (Con) De Cordova, Marsha Chantol (Battersea) (Lab)
Cates, Miriam Joy (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con) Debbonaire, Thangam Elizabeth Rachel (Bristol West)
Caulfield, Maria Colette (Lewes) (Con) (Lab)
Chalk, Alexander John Gervase (Cheltenham) (Con) Dhesi, Tanmanjeet Singh (Slough) (Lab)
Chamberlain, Wendy Anne (North East Fife) (LD) Dinenage, Caroline Julia (Gosport) (Con)
Champion, Sarah Deborah (Rotherham) (Lab) Dines, Sarah Elizabeth (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)
Chapman, Douglas (Dunfermline and West Fife) (SNP) Djanogly, Jonathan Simon (Huntingdon) (Con)
Charalambous, Charalambos (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab) Docherty, Leo (Aldershot) (Con)
Cherry, Joanna Catherine (Edinburgh South West) Docherty-Hughes, Martin John (West Dunbartonshire)
(SNP) (SNP)
Chishti, Atta-Ur-Rehman (Gillingham and Rainham) Dodds, Anneliese Jane (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
(Con) Donaldson, Rt Hon. Sir Jeffrey Mark (Lagan Valley)
Chope, Sir Christopher Robert (Christchurch) (Con) (DUP)
Churchill, Johanna Peta (Bury St Edmunds) (Con) Donelan, Michelle Emma May Elizabeth (Chippenham)
Clark, Feryal Demirci (Enfield North) (Lab) (Con)
Clark, Rt Hon. Gregory David (Tunbridge Wells) (Con) Doogan, David Michael (Angus) (SNP)
Clarke, Simon Richard (Middlesbrough South and East Dorans, Allan Hopkins (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Cleveland) (Con) (SNP)
Clarke, Theodora Roosevelt (Stafford) (Con) Dorries, Nadine Vanessa (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
Clarke-Smith, Brendan (Bassetlaw) (Con) Double, Stephen Daniel (St Austell and Newquay) (Con)
Clarkson, Christopher Mark (Heywood and Middleton) Doughty, Stephen John (Cardiff South and Penarth)
(Con) (Lab/Co-op)
Cleverly, Rt Hon. James Spencer (Braintree) (Con) Dowd, Peter Christopher (Bootle) (Lab)
Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Robert (The Cotswolds) Dowden, Rt Hon. Oliver James (Hertsmere) (Con)
(Con) Doyle-Price, Jacqueline (Thurrock) (Con)
Coffey, Rt Hon. Thérèse Anne (Suffolk Coastal) (Con) Drax, Richard Grosvenor (South Dorset) (Con)
Colburn, Elliott (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)
Dromey, John Eugene Joseph (Birmingham, Erdington)
Collins, Damian Noel Thomas (Folkestone and Hythe)
(Lab)
(Con)
Drummond, Felicia Jane Beatrix (Meon Valley) (Con)
Cooper, Daisy (St Albans) (LD)
Cooper, Rosemary Elizabeth (West Lancashire) (Lab) Duddridge, James Philip (Rochford and Southend East)
Cooper, Rt Hon. Yvette (Normanton, Pontefract and (Con)
Castleford) (Lab) Duffield, Rosemary Clare (Canterbury) (Lab)
Corbyn, Rt Hon. Jeremy Bernard (Islington North) Duguid, David James (Banff and Buchan) (Con)
(Lab) Duncan Smith, Rt Hon. George Iain (Chingford and
Costa, Alberto Castrenze (South Leicestershire) (Con) Woodford Green) (Con)
Courts, Robert Alexander (Witney) (Con) Dunne, Rt Hon. Philip Martin (Ludlow) (Con)
Coutinho, Claire Coryl Julia (East Surrey) (Con)
Cowan, Ronald Jack (Inverclyde) (SNP) E
Cox, Rt Hon. Charles Geoffrey (Torridge and West
Devon) (Con) Eagle, Angela (Wallasey) (Lab)
Coyle, Neil (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab) Eagle, Maria (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
Crabb, Rt Hon. Stephen (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con) Eastwood, Colum (Foyle) (SDLP)
Crawley, Angela (Lanark and Hamilton East) (SNP) Eastwood, Mark Simon (Dewsbury) (Con)
Creasy, Stella Judith (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) Edwards, David Jonathan (Carmarthen East and
Crosbie, Virginia Ann (Ynys Môn) (Con) Dinefwr) (PC)
Crouch, Tracey Elizabeth Anne (Chatham and Edwards, Ruth Rosamond (Rushcliffe) (Con)
Aylesford) (Con) Efford, Clive Stanley (Eltham) (Lab)
Cruddas, Jonathan (Dagenham and Rainham) (Lab) Elliott, Julie (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
Cryer, John Robert (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab) Ellis, Rt Hon. Michael Tyrone (Northampton North)
Cummins, Judith Mary (Bradford South) (Lab) (Con)
Cunningham, Alexander (Stockton North) (Lab) Ellwood, Rt Hon. Tobias Martin (Bournemouth East)
(Con)
D Elmore, Christopher Philip James (Ogmore) (Lab)
Daby, Janet Jessica (Lewisham East) (Lab) Elphicke, Natalie Cecilia (Dover) (Con)
Daly, James Barry (Bury North) (Con) Eshalomi, Florence (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)
Davey, Rt Hon. Sir Edward Jonathon (Kingston and Esterson, William Roffen (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Surbiton) (LD) Eustice, Charles George (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)
David, Wayne (Caerphilly) (Lab) Evans, Christopher James (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
Davies, David Thomas Charles (Monmouth) (Con) Evans, Luke Morgan (Bosworth) (Con)
Davies, Gareth Mark (Grantham and Stamford) (Con) Evans, Nigel Martin (Ribble Valley) (Con)
Davies, Geraint Richard (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) Evennett, Rt Hon. Sir David Anthony (Bexleyheath and
Davies, James Michael (Vale of Clwyd) (Con) Crayford) (Con)
Davies, Miriam Jane Alice (Mid Sussex) (Con) Everitt, Ben (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
 Alphabetical List of Members 19 DECEMBER 2019 Alphabetical List of Members ix

F Greenwood, Lilian Rachel (Nottingham South) (Lab)

Greenwood, Margaret (Wirral West) (Lab)
Fabricant, Michael Louis David (Lichfield) (Con) Griffith, Andrew (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
Farris, Laura Rose (Newbury) (Con) Griffith, Nia Rhiannon (Llanelli) (Lab)
Farron, Timothy James (Westmorland and Lonsdale) Griffiths, Kate Elizabeth (Burton) (Con)
(LD) Grundy, James Nelson (Leigh) (Con)
Farry, Stephen Anthony (North Down) (Alliance) Gullis, Jonathan Edward (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
Fell, Simon Richard James (Barrow and Furness) (Con) Gwynne, Andrew John (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Fellows, Marion (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Ferrier, Margaret (Rutherglen and Hamilton West)
(SNP) H
Finucane, John (Belfast North) (SF)
Fletcher, Colleen Margaret (Coventry North East) (Lab) Haigh, Louise Margaret (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)
Fletcher, Katherine (South Ribble) (Con) Halfon, Rt Hon. Robert Henry (Harlow) (Con)
Fletcher, Mark Peter (Bolsover) (Con) Hall, Luke Anthony (Thornbury and Yate) (Con)
Fletcher, Nicholas Anthony (Don Valley) (Con) Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds North East) (Lab)
Flynn, Stephen Mark (Aberdeen South) (SNP) Hammond, Stephen William (Wimbledon) (Con)
Ford, Victoria Grace (Chelmsford) (Con) Hancock, Rt Hon. Matthew John David (West Suffolk)
Foster, Kevin John (Torbay) (Con) (Con)
Fovargue, Yvonne Helen (Makerfield) (Lab) Hands, Rt Hon. Gregory William (Chelsea and Fulham)
Fox, Rt Hon. Liam (North Somerset) (Con) (Con)
Foxcroft, Victoria Jane (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) Hanna, Claire Aisling (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Foy, Mary Kelly (City of Durham) (Lab) Hanvey, James Neale (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath)
Francois, Rt Hon. Mark Gino (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Ind)
(Con) Hardy, Emma Ann (Kingston upon Hull West and
Frazer, Lucy Claire (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con) Hessle) (Lab)
Freeman, George William (Mid Norfolk) (Con) Harman, Rt Hon. Harriet Ruth (Camberwell and
Freer, Michael Whitney (Finchley and Golders Green) Peckham) (Lab)
(Con) Harper, Rt Hon. Mark James (Forest of Dean) (Con)
Fuller, Richard Quentin (North East Bedfordshire) Harris, Carolyn (Swansea East) (Lab)
(Con) Harris, Elizabeth Rebecca Scott (Castle Point) (Con)
Furniss, Gillian (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) Harrison, Trudy Lynne (Copeland) (Con)
(Lab) Hart, Sally-Ann (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
Fysh, Marcus John Hudson (Yeovil) (Con) Hart, Rt Hon. Simon Anthony (Carmarthen West and
South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Hayes, Helen Elizabeth (Dulwich and West Norwood)
(Lab)
G Hayes, Rt Hon. Sir John Henry (South Holland and The
Deepings) (Con)
Gale, Rt Hon. Sir Roger James (North Thanet) (Con) Hazzard, Christopher John (South Down) (SF)
Gardiner, Barry Strachan (Brent North) (Lab) Heald, Rt Hon. Sir Oliver (North East Hertfordshire)
Garnier, Mark Robert Timothy (Wyre Forest) (Con) (Con)
Ghani, Nusrat Munir (Wealden) (Con) Healey, Rt Hon. John (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)
Gibb, Rt Hon. Nicolas John (Bognor Regis and Heappey, James Stephen (Wells) (Con)
Littlehampton) (Con) Heaton-Harris, Christopher (Daventry) (Con)
Gibson, Patricia (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP) Henderson, Gordon Leonard (Sittingbourne and
Gibson, Peter Alexander (Darlington) (Con) Sheppey) (Con)
Gideon, Joanna Mary (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con) Hendrick, Sir Mark Phillip (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
Gildernew, Michelle Angela (Fermanagh and South Hendry, Andrew Egan Henderson (Inverness, Nairn,
Tyrone) (SF) Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)
Gill, Preet Kaur (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) Henry, Darren George (Broxtowe) (Con)
Gillan, Rt Hon. Dame Cheryl Elise Kendall (Chesham Higginbotham, Antony (Burnley) (Con)
and Amersham) (Con) Hill, Michael Robert (Hartlepool) (Lab)
Girvan, William Paul (South Antrim) (DUP) Hillier, Margaret Olivia (Hackney South and Shoreditch)
Glen, John Philip (Salisbury) (Con) (Lab/Co-op)
Glindon, Mary Theresa (North Tyneside) (Lab) Hinds, Rt Hon. Damian Patrick George (East
Goodwill, Rt Hon. Robert (Scarborough and Whitby) Hampshire) (Con)
(Con) Hoare, Simon James (North Dorset) (Con)
Gove, Rt Hon. Michael Andrew (Surrey Heath) (Con) Hobhouse, Wera Benedicta (Bath) (LD)
Grady, Patrick John (Glasgow North) (SNP) Hodge, Rt Hon. Dame Margaret Eve (Barking) (Lab)
Graham, Richard Michael John Ogilvie (Gloucester) Hodgson, Sharon (Washington and Sunderland West)
(Con) (Lab)
Grant, Helen (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con) Holden, Richard John (North West Durham) (Con)
Grant, Peter (Glenrothes) (SNP) Hollern, Catherine Malloy (Blackburn) (Lab)
Gray, James Whiteside (North Wiltshire) (Con) Hollinrake, Kevin Paul (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Gray, Neil Charles (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Hollobone, Philip Thomas (Kettering) (Con)
Grayling, Rt Hon. Christopher Stephen (Epsom and Holloway, Adam James Harold (Gravesham) (Con)
Ewell) (Con) Holmes, Paul John (Eastleigh) (Con)
Green, Christopher James (Bolton West) (Con) Hopkins, Rachel Louise (Luton South) (Lab)
Green, Rt Hon. Damian Howard (Ashford) (Con) Hosie, Stewart (Dundee East) (SNP)
Green, Katherine Anne (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab) Howarth, Rt Hon. Sir George Edward (Knowsley) (Lab)
x Alphabetical List of Members 19 DECEMBER 2019 Alphabetical List of Members

Howell, John Michael (Henley) (Con) L

Howell, Paul (Sedgefield) (Con)
Hoyle, Rt Hon. Sir Lindsay Harvey (Chorley) (Speaker) Laing, Rt Hon. Dame Eleanor Fulton (Epping Forest)
Huddleston, Nigel Paul (Mid Worcestershire) (Con) (Con)
Hudson, Neil Peter Hammerton (Penrith and The Lake, Ben Morgan (Ceredigion) (PC)
Border) (Con) Lammy, Rt Hon. David Lindon (Tottenham) (Lab)
Hughes, Edmund Francis (Walsall North) (Con) Lamont, John Robert (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and
Hunt, Jane Marion (Loughborough) (Con) Selkirk) (Con)
Hunt, Rt Hon. Jeremy Richard Streynsham (South West Largan, Robert (High Peak) (Con)
Surrey) (Con) Latham, Pauline Elizabeth (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
Hunt, Thomas Patrick (Ipswich) (Con) Lavery, Ian (Wansbeck) (Lab)
Huq, Rupa Asha (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab) Law, Christopher Murray Alexander (Dundee West)
Hussain, Imran (Bradford East) (Lab) (SNP)
Leadsom, Rt Hon. Andrea Jacqueline (South
Northamptonshire) (Con)
J Leigh, Rt Hon. Sir Edward Julian Egerton
(Gainsborough) (Con)
Jack, Rt Hon. Alister William (Dumfries and Galloway) Levy, Ian (Blyth Valley) (Con)
(Con) Lewell-Buck, Emma Louise (South Shields) (Lab)
Jardine, Christine Anne (Edinburgh West) (LD) Lewer, Andrew Iain (Northampton South) (Con)
Jarvis, Daniel Owen (Barnsley Central) (Lab) Lewis, Rt Hon. Brandon Kenneth (Great Yarmouth)
Javid, Rt Hon. Sajid (Bromsgrove) (Con) (Con)
Jayawardena, Ranil Malcolm (North East Hampshire) Lewis, Clive Anthony (Norwich South) (Lab)
(Con) Lewis, Rt Hon. Julian Murray (New Forest East) (Con)
Jenkin, Sir Bernard Christison (Harwich and North Liddell-Grainger, Ian Richard Peregrine (Bridgwater and
Essex) (Con) West Somerset) (Con)
Jenkinson, Mark Ian (Workington) (Con) Linden, David Melvyn (Glasgow East) (SNP)
Jenkyns, Andrea Marie (Morley and Outwood) (Con) Lloyd, Anthony Joseph (Rochdale) (Lab)
Jenrick, Rt Hon. Robert Edward (Newark) (Con) Lockhart, Carla Rebecca (Upper Bann) (DUP)
Johnson, Rt Hon. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel (Uxbridge Loder, Christopher Lionel John (West Dorset) (Con)
and South Ruislip) (Con) Logan, Mark Rory (Bolton North East) (Con)
Johnson, Caroline Elizabeth (Sleaford and North Long Bailey, Rebecca (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
Hykeham) (Con) Longhi, Marco (Dudley North) (Con)
Johnson, Diana Ruth (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab) Lopez, Julia Louise (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
Johnson, Gareth Alan (Dartford) (Con) Lopresti, Giacomo (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
Johnson, Kim Marie (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab) Lord, Jonathan George Caladine (Woking) (Con)
Johnston, David Mervyn (Wantage) (Con) Loughton, Timothy Paul (East Worthing and Shoreham)
Jones, Andrew Hanson (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
(Con) Lucas, Caroline Patricia (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Jones, Darren Paul (Bristol North West) (Lab) Lynch, Holly Jamie (Halifax) (Lab)
Jones, Rt Hon. David Ian (Clwyd West) (Con)
Jones, Fay Alicia (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
Jones, Gerald (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab) M
Jones, Rt Hon. Kevan David (North Durham) (Lab)
Jones, Marcus Charles (Nuneaton) (Con) MacAskill, Kenny Wright (East Lothian) (SNP)
Jones, Ruth Lorraine (Newport West) (Lab) McCabe, Stephen James (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
McCarthy, Kerry Gillian (Bristol East) (Lab)
Jones, Sarah Ann (Croydon Central) (Lab)
McCartney, Jason Alexander (Colne Valley) (Con)
Jupp, Simon James (East Devon) (Con) McCartney, Karl Ian (Lincoln) (Con)
McDonagh, Siobhain Ann (Mitcham and Morden)
(Lab)
K McDonald, Andrew Joseph (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
McDonald, Stewart Malcolm (Glasgow South) (SNP)
Kane, Michael Joseph Patrick (Wythenshawe and Sale McDonald, Stuart Campbell (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and
East) (Lab) Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
Kawczynski, Daniel Robert (Shrewsbury and Atcham) McDonnell, Rt Hon. John Martin (Hayes and
(Con) Harlington) (Lab)
Kearns, Alicia Alexandra Martha (Rutland and Melton) McFadden, Rt Hon. Patrick Bosco (Wolverhampton
(Con) South East) (Lab)
Keegan, Gillian (Chichester) (Con) McGinn, Conor Patrick (St Helens North) (Lab)
Keeley, Barbara Mary (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) McGovern, Alison (Wirral South) (Lab)
Kendall, Elizabeth Louise (Leicester West) (Lab) Mackinlay, Craig (South Thanet) (Con)
Khan, Afzal Mohammed (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) McKinnell, Catherine (Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Kinnock, Stephen Nathan (Aberavon) (Lab) (Lab)
Knight, Rt Hon. Sir Gregory (East Yorkshire) (Con) Mackrory, Cherilyn (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Knight, Julian Carlton (Solihull) (Con) McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow North East) (SNP)
Kruger, Daniel Rayne (Devizes) (Con) Maclean, Rachel Helen (Redditch) (Con)
Kwarteng, Rt Hon. Kwasi Alfred Addo (Spelthorne) McMahon, James (Oldham West and Royton)
(Con) (Lab/Co-op)
Kyle, Peter John (Hove) (Lab) McMorrin, Anna Rhiannon (Cardiff North) (Lab)
 Alphabetical List of Members 19 DECEMBER 2019 Alphabetical List of Members xi

Mc Nally, John Joseph (Falkirk) (SNP) N

MacNeil, Angus Brendan (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
McPartland, Stephen Anthony (Stevenage) (Con) Nandy, Lisa Eva (Wigan) (Lab)
McVey, Rt Hon. Esther Louise (Tatton) (Con) Neill, Robert James MacGillivray (Bromley and
Madders, Justin Piers Richard (Ellesmere Port and Chislehurst) (Con)
Neston) (Lab) Newlands, Gavin Andrew Stuart (Paisley and
Mahmood, Khalid (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab) Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
Mahmood, Shabana (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab) Nichols, Charlotte Louise (Warrington North) (Lab)
Mak, Alan (Havant) (Con) Nici-Townend, Lia (Great Grimsby) (Con)
Malhotra Seema (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op) Nicolson, John MacKenzie (Ochil and South Perthshire)
Malthouse, Christopher Laurie (North West Hampshire) (SNP)
(Con) Nokes, Rt Hon. Caroline Fiona Ellen (Romsey and
Mangnall, Anthony James Holland (Totnes) (Con) Southampton North) (Con)
Mann, Scott Leslie (North Cornwall) (Con) Norman, Rt Hon. Alexander Jesse (Hereford and South
Marson, Julie (Hertford and Stortford) (Con) Herefordshire) (Con)
Maskell, Rachael Helen (York Central) (Lab/Co-op) Norris, Alexander James Jorden (Nottingham North)
Maskey, Paul John (Belfast West) (SF) (Lab/Co-op)
Matheson, Christian John Patrick (City of Chester)
(Lab)
May, Rt Hon. Theresa Mary (Maidenhead) (Con) O
Mayhew, Jerome Patrick Burke (Broadland) (Con)
Maynard, Paul Christopher (Blackpool North and O’Brien, Neil John (Harborough) (Con)
Cleveleys) (Con) Offord, Matthew James (Hendon) (Con)
Mearns, James Ian (Gateshead) (Lab) O’Hara, Brendan (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Menzies, Mark Andrew (Fylde) (Con) Olney, Sarah Jane (Richmond Park) (LD)
Mercer, John Luther (Plymouth, Moor View) (Con) Onwurah, Chinyelu Susan (Newcastle upon Tyne
Merriman, Huw William (Bexhill and Battle) (Con) Central) (Lab)
Metcalfe, Stephen James (South Basildon and East Opperman, Guy Thomas (Hexham) (Con)
Thurrock) (Con) Oppong-Asare, Abena (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
Miliband, Rt Hon. Edward Samuel (Doncaster North) Osamor, Kate Ofunne (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
(Lab) Osborne, Katherine Helen (Jarrow) (Lab)
Millar, Robin John (Aberconwy) (Con) Oswald, Kirsten Frances (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
Miller, Rt Hon. Maria Frances Lewis (Basingstoke) Owatemi, Taiwo (Coventry North West) (Lab)
(Con) Owen, Sarah Mei Li (Luton North) (Lab)
Milling, Amanda Anne (Cannock Chase) (Con)
Mills, Nigel John (Amber Valley) (Con)
Mishra, Navendu Prabhat (Stockport) (Lab) P
Mitchell, Rt Hon. Andrew John Bower (Sutton
Coldfield) (Con) Paisley, Ian Richard Kyle (North Antrim) (DUP)
Mohindra, Gagan (South West Hertfordshire) (Con) Parish, Neil Quentin Gordon (Tiverton and Honiton)
Molloy, Francis Joseph (Mid Ulster) (SF) (Con)
Monaghan, Carol Frances (Glasgow North West) (SNP) Patel, Rt Hon. Priti Sushil (Witham) (Con)
Moore, Damien (Southport) (Con) Paterson, Rt Hon. Owen William (North Shropshire)
Moore, Robert Peter (Keighley) (Con) (Con)
Moran, Layla Michelle (Oxford West and Abingdon) Pawsey, Mark Julian Francis (Rugby) (Con)
(LD) Peacock, Stephanie Louise (Barnsley East) (Lab)
Mordaunt, Rt Hon. Penny Mary (Portsmouth North) Penning, Rt Hon. Sir Michael Alan (Hemel Hempstead)
(Con) (Con)
Morden, Jessica Elizabeth (Newport East) (Lab) Pennycook, Matthew Thomas (Greenwich and
Morgan, Stephen James (Portsmouth South) (Lab) Woolwich) (Lab)
Morris, Anne Marie (Newton Abbot) (Con) Penrose, John David (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
Morris, David Thomas (Morecambe and Lunesdale) Percy, Andrew Theakstone (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
(Con) Perkins, Matthew Toby (Chesterfield) (Lab)
Morris, Grahame Mark (Easington) (Lab) Phillips, Jessica Rose (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
Morris, James George (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) Phillipson, Bridget Maeve (Houghton and Sunderland
(Con) South) (Lab)
Morrissey, Joy Inboden (Beaconsfield) (Con) Philp, Chris Ian Brian Mynott (Croydon South) (Con)
Morton, Wendy (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con) Pincher, Rt Hon. Christopher John (Tamworth) (Con)
Mullan, Kieran John (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con) Pollard, Luke (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Mumby-Croft, Holly (Scunthorpe) (Con) (Lab/Co-op)
Mundell, Rt Hon. David Gordon (Dumfriesshire, Poulter, Daniel Leonard James (Central Suffolk and
Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con) North Ipswich) (Con)
Murray, Ian (Edinburgh South) (Lab) Pow, Rebecca Faye (Taunton Deane) (Con)
Murray, James Stewart (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op) Powell, Lucy Maria (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Murray, Sheryll (South East Cornwall) (Con) Prentis, Victoria Mary Boswell (Banbury) (Con)
Murrison, Rt Hon. Andrew William (South West Pritchard, Mark Andrew (The Wrekin) (Con)
Wiltshire) (Con) Pursglove, Thomas Christopher John (Corby) (Con)
xii Alphabetical List of Members 19 DECEMBER 2019 Alphabetical List of Members

Q Smith, Henry Edward Millar (Crawley) (Con)

Smith, Jeffrey (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
Quin, Jeremy Mark (Horsham) (Con) Smith, Rt Hon. Julian Richard (Skipton and Ripon)
Quince, William James (Colchester) (Con) (Con)
Qureshi, Yasmin (Bolton South East) (Lab) Smith, Nicholas Desmond John (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Smith, Royston Matthew (Southampton, Itchen) (Con)
Smyth, Karin Marguerite (Bristol South) (Lab)
R Sobel, Alexander David (Leeds North West)
(Lab/Co-op)
Raab, Rt Hon. Dominic Rennie (Esher and Walton) Solloway, Amanda Jane (Derby North) (Con)
(Con) Spellar, Rt Hon. John Francis (Warley) (Lab)
Randall, Thomas William (Gedling) (Con) Spencer, Ben (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)
Rayner, Angela (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab) Spencer, Rt Hon. Mark Steven (Sherwood) (Con)
Redwood, Rt Hon. Sir John Alan (Wokingham) (Con) Stafford, Alexander Paul Thomas (Rother Valley) (Con)
Reed, Steven Mark Ward (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op) Starmer, Rt Hon. Sir Keir (Holborn and St Pancras)
Rees, Christina Elizabeth (Neath) (Lab/Co-op) (Lab)
Rees-Mogg, Rt Hon. Jacob William (North East Stephens, Christopher Charles (Glasgow South West)
Somerset) (Con) (SNP)
Reeves, Eleanor Claire (Lewisham West and Penge) Stephenson, Andrew George (Pendle) (Con)
(Lab) Stevens, Joanna Meriel (Cardiff Central) (Lab)
Reeves, Rachel Jane (Leeds West) (Lab) Stevenson, Andrew John (Carlisle) (Con)
Reynolds, Jonathan Neil (Stalybridge and Hyde) Stevenson, Jane Fiona Catherine (Wolverhampton North
(Lab/Co-op) East) (Con)
Ribeiro-Addy, Bellavia Janet (Streatham) (Lab) Stewart, Iain Aitken (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
Richards, Nicola Faye (West Bromwich East) (Con) Stewart, Robert Alexander (Beckenham) (Con)
Richardson, Angela Joy (Guildford) (Con) Stone, Jamie Hume (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter
Rimmer, Marie Elizabeth (St Helens South and Ross) (LD)
Whiston) (Lab) Streeter, Sir Gary Nicholas (South West Devon) (Con)
Roberts, Robert Joseph (Delyn) (Con) Streeting, Wesley Paul William (Ilford North) (Lab)
Robertson, Laurence Anthony (Tewkesbury) (Con) Stride, Rt Hon. Melvyn John (Central Devon) (Con)
Robinson, Gavin James (Belfast East) (DUP) Stringer, Graham Eric (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
Robinson, Mary Josephine (Cheadle) (Con) Stuart, Graham Charles (Beverley and Holderness)
Rodda, Mathew Richard Allen (Reading East) (Lab) (Con)
Rosindell, Andrew Richard (Romford) (Con) Sturdy, Julian Charles (York Outer) (Con)
Ross, Douglas Gordon (Moray) (Con) Sultana, Zarah (Coventry South) (Lab)
Rowley, Lee Benjamin (North East Derbyshire) (Con) Sunak, Rt Hon. Rishi (Richmond (Yorks)) (Con)
Russell, Dean (Watford) (Con) Sunderland, James (Bracknell) (Con)
Russell-Moyle, Lloyd (Brighton, Kemptown) Swayne, Rt Hon. Sir Desmond Angus (New Forest
(Lab/Co-op) West) (Con)
Rutley, David Henry (Macclesfield) (Con) Syms, Sir Robert Andrew Raymond (Poole) (Con)

S T
Sambrook, Gary William (Birmingham, Northfield) Tami, Rt Hon. Mark Richard (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
(Con) Tarry, Samuel Peter (Ilford South) (Lab)
Saville Roberts, Rt Hon. Elizabeth (Dwyfor Thewliss, Alison Emily (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
Meirionnydd) (PC) Thomas, Derek Gordon (St Ives) (Con)
Saxby, Selaine Rachel (North Devon) (Con) Thomas, Gareth (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Scully, Paul Stuart (Sutton and Cheam) (Con) Thomas-Symonds, Nicklaus (Torfaen) (Lab)
Seely, Robert William Henry (Isle of Wight) (Con) Thompson, Owen George (Midlothian) (SNP)
Selous, Andrew Edmund Armstrong (South West Thomson, Richard Gordon (Gordon) (SNP)
Bedfordshire) (Con) Thornberry, Rt Hon. Emily (Islington South and
Shah, Naseem Akhtar (Bradford West) (Lab) Finsbury) (Lab)
Shannon, Richard James (Strangford) (DUP) Throup, Margaret Ann (Erewash) (Con)
Shapps, Rt Hon. Grant (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con) Timms, Rt Hon. Stephen Creswell (East Ham) (Lab)
Sharma, Rt Hon. Alok Kumar (Reading West) (Con) Timpson, Anthony Edward (Eddisbury) (Con)
Sharma, Virendra Kumar (Ealing, Southall) (Lab) Tolhurst, Kelly Jane (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
Sheerman, Barry John (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) Tomlinson, Justin Paul (North Swindon) (Con)
Shelbrooke, Rt Hon. Alec (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con) Tomlinson, Michael James (Mid Dorset and North
Sheppard, Thomas (Edinburgh East) (SNP) Poole) (Con)
Siddiq, Tulip Rizwana (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab) Tracey, Craig Paul (North Warwickshire) (Con)
Simmonds, David Timothy (Ruislip, Northwood and Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Belinda (Berwick-upon-Tweed)
Pinner) (Con) (Con)
Skidmore, Rt Hon. Christopher James (Kingswood) Trickett, Jon Hedley (Hemsworth) (Lab)
(Con) Trott, Laura (Sevenoaks) (Con)
Slaughter, Andrew Francis (Hammersmith) (Lab) Truss, Rt Hon. Elizabeth Mary (South West Norfolk)
Smith, Alyn Edward (Stirling) (SNP) (Con)
Smith, Catherine Jane (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab) Tugendhat, Thomas Georg John (Tonbridge and
Smith, Chloe Rebecca (Norwich North) (Con) Malling) (Con)
Smith, Greg (Buckingham) (Con) Turner, Karl (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
 Alphabetical List of Members 19 DECEMBER 2019 Alphabetical List of Members xiii

Twigg, John Derek (Halton) (Lab) Whitehead, Alan Patrick Vincent (Southampton, Test)
Twist, Mary Elizabeth (Blaydon) (Lab) (Lab)
Whitford, Philippa (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
Whitley, Michael (Birkenhead) (Lab)
V Whittaker, Craig (Calder Valley) (Con)
Whittingdale, Rt Hon. John Flasby Lawrance (Maldon)
Vara, Shailesh Lakhman (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)
(Con) Whittome, Nadia Edith (Nottingham East) (Lab)
Vaz, Rt Hon. Valerie Carol Marian (Walsall South) Wiggin, William David (North Herefordshire) (Con)
(Lab) Wild, James Oliver (North West Norfolk) (Con)
Vickers, Martin John (Cleethorpes) (Con) Williams, Alun Craig (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Vickers, Matthew Alexander (Stockton South) (Con) Williams, Hywel (Arfon) (PC)
Villiers, Rt Hon. Theresa Anne (Chipping Barnet) (Con) Williamson, Rt Hon. Gavin Alexander (South
Staffordshire) (Con)
Wilson, Munira (Twickenham) (LD)
W Wilson, Rt Hon. Samuel (East Antrim) (DUP)
Winter, Bethan (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
Wakeford, Christian (Bury South) (Con) Winterton, Rt Hon. Dame Rosalie (Doncaster Central)
Walker, Sir Charles Ashley Rupert (Broxbourne) (Con) (Lab)
Walker, Robin Caspar (Worcester) (Con) Wishart, Peter (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
Wallace, Rt Hon. Robert Ben Lobban (Wyre and Wood, Michael Jon (Dudley South) (Con)
Preston North) (Con) Wragg, William Peter (Hazel Grove) (Con)
Wallis, Jamie Hamilton (Bridgend) (Con) Wright, Rt Hon. Jeremy Paul (Kenilworth and Southam)
Warburton, David John (Somerton and Frome) (Con) (Con)
Warman, Matthew Robert (Boston and Skegness) (Con)
Watling, Giles Francis (Clacton) (Con)
Webb, Suzanne (Stourbridge) (Con)
Y
Webbe, Claudia Naomi (Leicester East) (Lab)
Yasin, Mohammad (Bedford) (Lab)
West, Catherine Elizabeth (Hornsey and Wood Green)
Young, Jacob (Redcar) (Con)
(Lab)
Western, Matthew Raymond (Warwick and Leamington)
(Lab) Z
Whately, Helen Olivia Bicknell (Faversham and Mid
Kent) (Con) Zahawi, Nadhim (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
Wheeler, Heather Kay (South Derbyshire) (Con) Zeichner, Daniel Stephen (Cambridge) (Lab)
 HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT
MEMBERS OF THE CABINET
(FORMED BY THE RT HON. BORIS JOHNSON, MP, DECEMBER 2019)
PRIME MINISTER, FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson, MP
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. Sajid Javid, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS AND FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Dominic
Raab, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT—The Rt Hon. Priti Patel, MP
CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. Michael Gove, MP
LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt Hon. Robert Buckland, QC, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION—The Rt Hon. Stephen Barclay, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE—The Rt Hon. Ben Wallace, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE—The Rt Hon. Matt Hancock, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY—The Rt Hon. Andrea Leadsom, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE, AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND
EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS—The Rt Hon. Dr Thérèse Coffey, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION—The Rt Hon. Gavin Williamson CBE, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt Hon. Robert Jenrick, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt Hon. Grant Shapps, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND—The Rt Hon. Julian Smith, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Alister Jack, MP
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WALES—The Rt Hon. Simon Hart, MP
LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt Hon. Nicky Morgan
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt Hon. Alok Sharma, MP
MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. James Cleverly, MP
DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS
Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Andrea Leadsom, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
The Rt Hon. Kwasi Kwarteng, MP (Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth)
The Rt Hon. Chris Skidmore, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation) §
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Kelly Tolhurst, MP
Nadhim Zahawi, MP
Lord Duncan of Springbank §
Cabinet Office—
PRIME MINISTER, FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson, MP
CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. Michael Gove, MP
MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. James Cleverly, MP
LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP
LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
MINISTERS OF STATE—
The Rt Hon. Oliver Dowden CBE, MP (Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office)
The Rt Hon. Jake Berry, MP (Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth) §
PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES—
Chloe Smith, MP
Johnny Mercer, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) §
Jeremy Quin, MP
Defence—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Ben Wallace, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
Anne-Marie Trevelyan, MP (Minister for the Armed Forces)
Baroness Goldie DL
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
James Heappey, MP
Johnny Mercer, MP (Minister for Defence People and Veterans) §
ii HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

Digital, Culture, Media and Sport—

SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Nicky Morgan
MINISTER OF STATE—Nigel Adams, MP (Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries)
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Helen Whately, MP
Matt Warman, MP
Baroness Barran MBE
Education—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Gavin Williamson CBE, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
The Rt Hon. Nick Gibb, MP (Minister for School Standards)
The Rt Hon. Chris Skidmore, MP (Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation) §
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Kemi Badenoch, MP
Michelle Donelan, MP (Interim) §
Lord Agnew
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
George Eustice, MP
The Rt Hon. Zac Goldsmith §
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Rebecca Pow, MP
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Exiting the European Union—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Stephen Barclay, MP
MINISTER OF STATE—Lord Callanan
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—James Duddridge, MP
Foreign and Commonwealth Office—
SECRETARY OF STATE AND FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Dominic Raab, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
The Rt Hon. Christopher Pincher, MP (Minister for Europe and the Americas)
The Rt Hon. Dr Andrew Murrison, MP (Minister for the Middle East and North Africa) §
Andrew Stephenson, MP (Minister for Africa) §
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Minister for the Commonwealth, the UN and South Asia)
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Heather Wheeler, MP
Health and Social Care—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Matt Hancock, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
Edward Argar, MP (Minister for Health)
Caroline Dinenage, MP (Minister for Care)
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Jo Churchill, MP
Nadine Dorries, MP
Baroness Blackwood
Home Office—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Priti Patel, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
The Rt Hon. Brandon Lewis, MP (Minister for Security and Deputy for EU Exit and No Deal Preparation)
Kit Malthouse, MP (Minister for Crime, Policing and the Fire Service)
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Minister for Countering Extremism) §
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Victoria Atkins, MP §
Kevin Foster, MP §
Housing, Communities and Local Government—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Robert Jenrick, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
The Rt. Hon. Esther McVey, MP (Minister for Housing)
The Rt Hon. Jake Berry, MP (Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth) §
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Luke Hall, MP
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Chris Philp, MP (Minister for London) §
 HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont. iii

International Development—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alok Sharma, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
The Rt. Hon. Dr Andrew Murrison, MP §
Andrew Stephenson, MP §
The Rt Hon. Zac Goldsmith §
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Baroness Sugg CBE
International Trade—
SECRETARY OF STATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP
MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Conor Burns, MP
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Graham Stuart, MP
MINISTER FOR WOMEN—Victoria Atkins, MP §
MINISTER FOR EQUALITIES—Baroness Williams of Trafford §
Justice—
LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Robert Buckland, QC, MP
MINISTER OF STATE—Lucy Frazer, QC, MP
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Wendy Morton, MP
Chris Philp, MP §
ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC
Law Officers—
ATTORNEY GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Geoffrey Cox, QC, MP
SOLICITOR GENERAL—The Rt Hon. Michael Ellis, QC, MP
ADVOCATE GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Lord Keen of Elie, QC
Leader of the House of Commons—
LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP
Leader of the House of Lords—
LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt Hon. Earl Howe
Northern Ireland Office—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Julian Smith, MP
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Lord Duncan of Springbank §
Robin Walker, MP
Scotland Office—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alister Jack, MP
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Douglas Ross, MP
Transport—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Grant Shapps, MP
MINISTERS OF STATE—
Chris Heaton-Harris, MP
George Freeman, MP
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Nusrat Ghani, MP
Paul Maynard, MP
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
Treasury—
PRIME MINISTER, FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson, MP
CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. Sajid Javid, MP
CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Rishi Sunak, MP
FINANCIAL SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Jesse Norman, MP
ECONOMIC SECRETARY—John Glen, MP
EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—Simon Clarke, MP
PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Mark Spencer, MP
LORDS COMMISSIONERS—
Maggie Throup, MP
Rebecca Harris, MP
Michelle Donelan, MP §
David Rutley, MP
Iain Stewart, MP
Douglas Ross, MP
iv HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

ASSISTANT WHIPS—
Leo Docherty, MP
James Morris, MP
Tom Pursglove, MP
Nigel Huddleston, MP
Marcus Jones, MP
David T. C. Davies, MP
Maria Caulfield, MP
UK Export Finance—
SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL TRADE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth
Truss, MP
Wales Office—
SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Simon Hart, MP
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—David T. C. Davies, MP §
Work and Pensions—
SECRETARY OF STATE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Dr Thérèse Coffey, MP
MINISTER OF STATE—Justin Tomlinson, MP (Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work)
PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE—
Will Quince, MP
Mims Davies, MP
Guy Opperman, MP
Baroness Stedman-Scott OBE, DL
Her Majesty’s Household—
LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt Hon. Earl Peel GCVO, DL
LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie
MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord de Mauley
TREASURER—Amanda Milling, MP
COMPTROLLER—Mike Freer, MP
VICE-CHAMBERLAIN—Stuart Andrew, MP
CAPTAIN OF THE HONOURABLE CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS—The Rt Hon. Lord Ashton of Hyde
CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD—Earl of Courtown
BARONESSES IN WAITING—
Baroness Berridge of The Vale of Catmose
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
LORD IN WAITING—Lord Bethell of Romford

§ Members of the Government listed under more than one Department

 HOUSE OF COMMONS
THE SPEAKER—The Rt Hon. Sir Lindsay Hoyle, MP

COMMONS EXECUTIVE BOARD—

Mostaque Ahmed (Finance Director and Managing Director, Finance, Portfolio and Performance),
Ian Ailles (Director General of the House of Commons), Carlos Bamford (Managing Director, In-House
Services), Dr John Benger (Clerk of the House and Head of the House of Commons Service), Sarah Davies
(Clerk Assistant and Managing Director, Chamber and Committees), Mandy Eddolls (Managing Director,
HR and Diversity), David Hemming (Managing Director, Strategic Estates), Eric Hepburn (Director of Security
for Parliament), Tracey Jessup (Director of the Parliamentary Digital Service), Dr Edge Watchorn (Managing
Director, Participation), Penny Young (Librarian and Managing Director, Research and Information)
SECRETARY OF THE BOARD—Rhiannon Hollis

OFFICE OF THE SPEAKER

SPEAKER’S SECRETARY—Helen Wood
ASSISTANT SECRETARY TO THE SPEAKER—Ian Davis MBE
TRAINBEARER—Jim Davey
DIARY SECRETARY—Jo-Anne Crowder
SPEAKER’S CHAPLAIN—The Rev Canon Patricia Hillas

OFFICE OF SPEAKER’S COUNSEL

SPEAKER’S COUNSEL—Saira Salimi
COUNSEL—Daniel Greenberg (Domestic Legislation), Indira Rao (European Legislation), Helen Emes (Deputy
Speaker’s Counsel), Eleanor Hourigan (Joint Committee on Human Rights)
DEPUTY COUNSEL—Vanessa Macnair, Klara Banaszak (Domestic Legislation), Emily Unwin, Joanne Dee
(European Legislation), Samantha Granger (Joint Committee on Human Rights)
PRINCIPAL ASSISTANT COUNSEL—Andrew Burrow, Helen Kinghorn
ASSISTANT COUNSEL—Edwina Acland, Alison Hill, Nony Ardill (Justice Committee), Howard Daley, Hannah
Stewart (Scrutiny Unit)
PARALEGAL & BUSINESS SUPPORT MANAGER—John Richardson (Personal injury claims)
OFFICE MANAGER—Zsofia Kiss

PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS

PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—Kathryn Stone OBE
REGISTRAR OF MEMBERS’ FINANCIAL INTERESTS—Heather Wood

PARLIAMENTARY SECURITY DEPARTMENT

DIRECTOR OF SECURITY FOR PARLIAMENT—Eric Hepburn
DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF SECURITY (OPERATIONS)—Fay Tennet
DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF SECURITY (STRATEGY AND SERVICES)—Emily Baldock

OFFICE OF THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS

SECRETARY TO THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—Clementine Brown

GOVERNANCE AND CENTRAL SERVICES

CLERK OF THE HOUSE—Dr John Benger
DIRECTOR GENERAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—Ian Ailles
SECRETARY TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION AND HEAD OF GOVERNANCE AND CENTRAL SERVICES—Marianne
Cwynarski
vi HOUSE OF COMMONS—cont.

HEAD OF PRIVATE OFFICE FOR THE CLERK AND DIRECTOR GENERAL AND SECRETARY TO THE COMMONS EXECUTIVE
BOARD—Rhiannon Hollis
PRIVATE SECRETARY TO THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE—Hannah Bryce
PRIVATE SECRETARY TO THE DIRECTOR GENERAL—Emma Sawyer
HEAD OF TEAM SERVICES AND PROJECTS—Vasilis Gialias
CORPORATE RISK MANAGEMENT FACILITATOR—Rachel Harrison
HEAD OF PARLIAMENTARY SAFETY—Mal McDougall
HEAD OF SAFETY COMPLIANCE AND CULTURE—Jack Holden
HEAD OF INTERNAL AUDIT AND RISK MANAGEMENT—Richard Stammers
CLERK OF DOMESTIC COMMITTEES—Robert Cope
CLERK OF THE ADMINISTRATION COMMITTEE—Kevin Candy
HEAD OF INSIGHT—Clare Bamberger
CUSTOMER SERVICES DIRECTOR—Chris Sear
COMMONS RESTORATION AND RENEWAL DIRECTOR—Charlotte Simmonds
PROGRAMME MANAGER—John Owen
DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS—Clare Jennings, Alice Holmes (job share)
DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS: INTERNAL COMMUNICATIONS—Alex Noonoo
DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS: MEDIA, EXTERNAL AFFAIRS AND PLANNING—Sasha Fuller

CHAMBER AND COMMITTEES

CLERK ASSISTANT AND MANAGING DIRECTOR—Sarah Davies
PERSONAL ASSISTANT—Charlotte Every
Overseas Office—
PRINCIPAL CLERK—Dr Lynn Gardner
HEAD, PARLIAMENTARY ASSEMBLIES SECTION—Nick Wright
INWARD VISITS MANAGER—Dawn Amey
Team Services—
DIRECTOR OF CUSTOMER AND TEAM SERVICES—Edward Beale

COMMITTEES
Committee Office—
CLERK OF COMMITTEES—Tom Goldsmith
PRINCIPAL CLERKS OF SELECT COMMITTEES—Tom Healey, James Rhys, Eve Samson
BUSINESS MANAGER (LIAISON)—Richard Dawson
OPERATIONS MANAGER—Francene Graham
BUSINESS MANAGER (COMG)—Jackie Jones
Departmental Select Committees—
BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY: CLERKS—Rebecca Davies, Alison Groves
DEFENCE: CLERKS—Mark Etherton, Matthew Congreve
DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT: CLERKS—Chloe Challender, Mubeen Bhutta
EDUCATION: CLERKS—Richard Ward, Mike Everett
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS: CLERKS—Ian Bradshaw, Ben Street
EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION: CLERKS—Gordon Clarke, Joe Watt
FOREIGN AFFAIRS: CLERKS—Chris Shaw, Lauren Boyer
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE: CLERKS—Huw Yardley, Previn Desai
HOME AFFAIRS: CLERKS—Elizabeth Hunt, Dominic Stockbridge
HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: CLERKS—Mike Winter, Jack Dent
INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT: CLERKS—Fergus Reid, Jeanne Delebarre
INTERNATIONAL TRADE: CLERKS—Jo Welham, Sean Kinsey
JUSTICE: CLERKS—David Weir, Fiona Hoban, Seb Newman
NORTHERN IRELAND AFFAIRS: CLERKS—Nick Beech, Mems Ayinla
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: CLERKS—Danielle Nash, Ellen Watson
SCOTTISH AFFAIRS: CLERKS—Leoni Kurt, Samir Amar Setti
TRANSPORT: CLERKS—Marek Kubala, Ed Faulkner, Robi Quigley
TREASURY: CLERKS—Gosia McBride, Gail Bartlett
WELSH AFFAIRS: CLERKS—Adam Evans, Mems Ayinla
WOMEN AND EQUALITIES: CLERKS—Jyoti Chandola, Radhika Handa
WORK AND PENSIONS: CLERKS—Anne-Marie Griffiths, Stuart Ramsay, Zoe Backhouse
 HOUSE OF COMMONS—cont. vii

Other Committees—
ENVIRONMENTAL AUDIT: CLERK—Lloyd Owen
JOINT COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS: COMMONS CLERK—Lucinda Maer
LIAISON: CLERK—David Slater
JOINT COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY: COMMONS CLERK—Simon Fiander
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS: CLERKS—Richard Cooke, Laura-Jane Tiley, Bradley Albrow
PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION: CLERKS—Libby Kurien, Jonathan Whiffing, Sarah Ioannou
REGULATORY REFORM: CLERKS—Rebecca Davies, Alison Groves
EUROPEAN SCRUTINY: CLERKS—Jessica Mulley, Sibel Taner
EUROPEAN STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS: CLERK—Luanne Middleton
CLERK ADVISERS—Leigh Gibson, Alistair Dillon, Foeke Noppert, George Wilson
JOINT COMMITTEE ON STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS: COMMONS CLERK—Luanne Middleton
Scrutiny Unit—
HEADS OF UNIT—David Lloyd, Elizabeth Flood
DEPUTY HEAD OF UNIT (FINANCE)—Larry Honeysett
Media & Communications and Web & Publications Unit—
PROGRAMME MANAGER, CCT COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITY AND CHANGE—Amanda Saunders
HEAD OF MEDIA AND COMMUNICATIONS—Liz Parratt
HEAD OF WEB AND PUBLICATIONS UNIT—Miranda Olivier-Wright

CHAMBER BUSINESS
STRATEGIC DIRECTOR—Matthew Hamlyn
Public and Private Bill Office—
CLERK OF LEGISLATION—Liam Laurence Smyth
CLERK OF BILLS—Chris Stanton
EXAMINER OF PETITIONS FOR PRIVATE BILLS AND TAXING OFFICER—Chris Stanton
CLERK OF PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BILLS—Adam Mellows-Facer
CLERKS: Joanna Dodd, Kenneth Fox, Adam Mellows-Facer, Kevin Maddion, Rob Page, Anwen Rees,
Yohanna Sallberg
BUSINESS MANAGER—Julie Evans
Committees—
COURT OF REFEREES: CLERK—Chris Stanton
SELECTION: CLERK—Anwen Rees
STANDING ORDERS, UNOPPOSED BILLS: CLERK—Clementine Brown
Journal Office—
CLERK OF THE JOURNALS—Mark Hutton
CLERKS—Masrur Ahmed, Martyn Atkins, Medha Basin, Sarah Heath, Mike Hennessy, Sara Howe, Dr Robin
James, Libby Kurien, Dr Stephen McGinness, Crispin Poyser, Peter Stam, Laura-Jane Tiley
PROCEDURAL HUB MANAGER—Julie Evans
ENGAGEMENT AND COMMUNICATIONS MANAGER—Caitriona Ridout
Committees—
PETITIONS: CLERKS—Ben Sneddon, Ed Faulkner
PRIVILEGES: CLERKS—Dr Robin James, Medha Basin
PROCEDURE: CLERKS—Martyn Atkins, Masrur Ahmed
STANDARDS: CLERKS—Dr Robin James, Medha Basin
Statutory Committees—
SPEAKER’S COMMITTEE FOR IPSA: SECRETARIES—Dr Robin James, Kevin Maddison
SPEAKER’S COMMITTEE ON THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION: SECRETARIES— Dr Robin James, Kevin Maddison
Table Office—
PRINCIPAL CLERK—Colin Lee
CLERKS—James Davies, Amelia Aspden, Nina Foster, Gini Griffin, Stephen Habberley, Sarah Hartwell-Naguib,
Phil Jones, Tamsin Maddock, Catherine Meredith, Sîan Woodward
BUSINESS MANAGER—Anita Fuki
BACKBENCH BUSINESS: CLERKS—Sarah Hartwell-Naguib, Gini Griffin / Catherine Meredith
Vote Office—
DELIVERER OF THE VOTE—Tom McVeagh
PROCEDURAL PUBLISHING OPERATIONS MANAGER—Stuart Miller
HEAD OF DISTRIBUTION SERVICES—Barry Underwood
viii HOUSE OF COMMONS—cont.

OFFICIAL REPORT
EDITOR—Alex Newton
DEPUTY EDITOR—Jack Homer
PERSONAL ASSISTANT—Caroline Rowlands
DIRECTOR OF PARLIAMENTARY AUDIO/VIDEO—John Angeli
DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF PARLIAMENTARY AUDIO/VIDEO—Sally Freestone
MANAGING EDITORS (COMMITTEES)—Jonathan Hoare, Adele Dodd
MANAGING EDITORS (HOUSE)—Deborah Jones, Ann Street, Vivien Wilson, Emma Kirby, Jez Oates,
David Hampton, Tony Minichiello, Ian Oakhill §
COMMITTEE SUB-EDITORS—Kate Myers, Juliet Levy, Ken Gall, Victoria Hart, Paul Kirby, Portia Dadley,
Joanna Lipkowska, Richard Purnell, Bran Jones, Tricia Hill, Ian Oakhill §, Saul Minaee, Keith Brown,
Cara Clark, Tom Martin, Owain Wilkins, Richard Hallas, Helen Lowe
HOUSE REPORTERS—Emily Morris, Jude Wheway, Felicity Reardon, Angus Andrews, Jim Barr, Paul Owen, Lydia
Davis, Eugene Wolstenholme, Stephen Farrell, Vivienne Kenny, James Mayne, Charlie Browne, Matthew Johnson,
Richard Eaton, Andrew Taylor, Kath Burns
HEAD OF ADMINISTRATION—Stephen O’Riordan
SENIOR HANSARD ADMINISTRATORS—John Brake, Brian Harrison
ANNUNCIATOR SUPERINTENDENT—John LeHunte

HR AND FINANCE

HR AND DIVERSITY
MANAGING DIRECTOR OF HR AND DIVERSITY—Mandy Eddolls
BUSINESS MANAGEMENT DIRECTOR—Della Herd
HUMAN RESOURCES DIRECTOR—Markos Koumaditis
HEAD OF DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION—Jennifer Crook
HEAD OF HR ADVICE AND POLICY SERVICE—Sally Jackson
BUSINESS PARTNERS—Johan van den Broek, Harun Musho’d, Daniel Farruggio, Elizabeth Rousou, Tim Elgar,
Jon Godwin
HEAD OF HR SHARED SERVICES (EPPS, ONBOARDING, RECRUITMENT)—Deborah Macaly
HEAD OF LEARNING AND ORGANISATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—Carl Akintola-Davies
HEAD OF EMPLOYEE RELATIONS AND REWARD—Reg Perry

FINANCE, PORTFOLIO AND PERFORMANCE

DIRECTOR OF FINANCE, PORTFOLIO AND PERFORMANCE—Mostaque Ahmed
DIRECTOR OF CORPORATE FINANCE AND PERFORMANCE—Philip Collins
HEAD OF ENTERPRISE PORTFOLIO MANAGEMENT OFFICE (EPMO)—Sarah Rees
HEAD OF MEMBERS’ HUB—Gurpreet Bassi
HEAD OF IDEAS AND INNOVATION—Andy Vallins
STRATEGY, PLANNING AND PERFORMANCE MANAGER—Jane Hough
SYSTEMS ACCOUNTING—Asad Qureshi
HEAD OF FINANCIAL ACCOUNTING—Saeka Parka
HEAD OF TEAM SERVICES—Linda Hu
FINANCE BUSINESS PARTNER—Caroline Young

HEALTH AND WELLBEING

HEAD OF PARLIAMENTARY HEALTH AND WELLBEING—Anne Mossop
CONSULTANT OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH PHYSICIANS—Dr Paul Grimes, Dr Ira Madan
OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH ADVISORS—Margaret Mainland, Jane Rose
CLINICAL NURSE ADVISERS—Sarah Dow, Karen St Cyr, Sally Nightingale
WELLBEING PRACTITIONERS—Sharon Le Count, Trevor Pierce

PARTICIPATION
MANAGING DIRECTOR—Dr Edge Watchorn
DIRECTOR OF STRATEGY—Matthew Ringer
HEAD OF PEOPLE CAPABILITY—Amy Baxter
STRATEGY DELIVERY MANAGER—John Thursfield
FINANCE & PERFORMANCE BUSINESS MANAGER—Karen Guthrie

COMMUNICATIONS AND AUDIENCES

HEAD OF COMMUNICATIONS AND AUDIENCES—vacant
PUBLIC ENQUIRIES MANAGER—Fiona Green
DIGITAL ENGAGEMENT MANAGER—Laura Wickens
SENIOR MARKETING MANAGER—Emma Terry
 HOUSE OF COMMONS—cont. ix

EDUCATION AND ENGAGEMENT

HEAD OF EDUCATION AND ENGAGEMENT—David Clark
DEPUTY HEAD OF EDUCATION AND ENGAGEMENT—Emily Unell
BUSINESS SUPPORT MANAGER—Heather Pike
OUTREACH MANAGER—Daniel Gallacher
EDUCATION CENTRE OPERATIONS MANAGER—Yvonne Dennison
CAMPAIGNS MANAGER—Michelle Budge
OUTREACH MANAGER—Alasdair Mackenzie
RESOURCES AND CONTENT DEVELOPMENT MANAGER—Philippa Brown
SELECT COMMITTEE ENGAGEMENT MANAGER—Naomi Jurczak

VISITOR AND RETAIL SERVICES

DIRECTOR OF VISITOR EXPERIENCE—Abigail Fox-Smith
HEAD OF VISITOR SERVICES—Matthew Morgan
VISITOR EXPERIENCE MANAGER—Amy Treble
VISITOR ENGAGEMENT MANAGER—Simon Featherstone
HEAD OF RETAIL OPERATIONS—Diana Christou
SENIOR RETAIL OPERATIONS MANAGER—Tamsin Swain
PERFORMANCE MANAGER—Giles Mason

HERITAGE COLLECTIONS TEAM

HEAD OF HERITAGE COLLECTIONS AND CURATOR OF WORKS OF ART—Melissa Hamnett
DEPUTY CURATOR AND HEAD OF INTERPRETATION—Melanie Unwin
ASSISTANT CURATOR—Sileas Wood
COLLECTIONS CARE MANAGER—Caroline Babington
COLLECTIONS INFORMATION MANAGER—Natasha Walsh
KEEPER OF HISTORIC COLLECTIONS—Mary-Jane Tsang
CONSERVATION MANAGER, HISTORIC COLLECTIONS—Patrick Walsh

IN-HOUSE SERVICES

DECANT SERVICES
DECANT DIRECTOR—Dr Patsy Richards
DEPUTY DECANT DIRECTOR (BUSINESS CHANGE AND ENGAGEMENT)—Emma Downing
DEPUTY DECANT DIRECTOR (SERVICES AND MOVES READINESS)—Helen Spall

TEAM SERVICES
CHIEF OF STAFF (INTERIM)—Megan Conway
EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT TO MANAGING DIRECTOR—Zainab Qureshi

PARLIAMENTARY MAINTENANCE SERVICES

DIRECTOR OF PARLIAMENTARY MAINTENANCE SERVICES—Tim Killip
HEAD OF MAINTENANCE OPERATIONS—Mike McCann
BUSINESS COMPLIANCE, HEALTH AND SAFETY MANAGER—Jason Bunn
OPERATIONS MANAGER—John Taylor
REACTIVE AND CEREMONIAL MAINTENANCE MANAGER—Steve Jaggs
SMALL WORKS MAINTENANCE MANAGER—Len Thorogood

CATERING SERVICES
DIRECTOR OF CATERING SERVICES—Richard Tapner-Evans
EXECUTIVE CHEF—Mark Hill, MBE
OPERATIONS MANAGER—Robert Gibbs
CATERING MANAGER (TERRACE CAFETERIA, MEMBERS’ TEA ROOM AND JUBILEE CAFÉ)—Denise Durkin
PRIVATE DINING AND EVENTS MANAGER—Lee Holt
PRIVATE DINING AND EVENTS OFFICE MANAGER—Jason Bonello
PRIVATE DINING AND EVENTS SALES MANAGER—Kay West
CATERING SERVICES MANAGER, NORTHERN ESTATE (PORTCULLIS HOUSE, 1 PARLIAMENT STREET, RICHMOND HOUSE,
MONCRIEFF’S, TOTHILL STREET AND 7 MILLBANK)—Katie Elliott
CATERING MANAGERS (PORTCULLIS HOUSE, 1 PARLIAMENT STREET, RICHMOND HOUSE, MONCRIEFF’S, TOTHILL STREET
AND 7 MILLBANK)—James Ellis, Dominika Plachecka
PURCHASING AND STORES MANAGER—Antony Avella
MARKETING AND COMMUNICATIONS MANAGER—Tanith Banks
x HOUSE OF COMMONS—cont.

SERVICE DELIVERY
DIRECTOR OF SERVICE DELIVERY AND CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE—James Turner
HEAD OF ACCOMMODATION—Dominic Bransden
HEAD OF CUSTOMER RELATIONSHIP MANAGEMENT TEAM—Caroline Nicholls
CUSTOMER RELATIONSHIP MANAGER (HOUSE SERVICE)—Stuart Whitcher
HEAD OF SERVICE DELIVERY—Simon Mansfield
SERVICE DELIVERY MANAGERS—Doreen Irving, Claire Dore, David O’Nions, Ian Doubleday
HERITAGE CLEANING MANAGER—Eliza Steffens
HEAD OF SERVICES—Andy Martin
PARLIAMENTARY LOGISTICS MANAGER—Wesley Auvache
FIRE SAFETY MANAGER—John Bradbury
POSTMASTER—Mark Morrish
SERJEANT AT ARMS
SERJEANT AT ARMS—Ugbana Oyet
DEPUTY SERJEANT AT ARMS (OPERATIONS)—Chris Rust
PRINCIPAL DOORKEEPER—Phil Howse
HEAD OF MEMBER AND COMMITTEE ENGAGEMENT—Peter Barratt
HEAD OF ACCESS—Andy Martin
RESILIENCE AND EMERGENCY PLANNING MANAGER—Georgina Gray
RESEARCH AND INFORMATION
HOUSE OF COMMONS LIBRARIAN AND MANAGING DIRECTOR—Penny Young
PERSONAL ASSISTANT—Brigitte Onyskiw
INFORMATION RIGHTS AND INFORMATION SECURITY SERVICE (IRIS)
HEAD OF IRIS—Victoria Payne
IRIS OPERATIONS MANAGER—Emma Clark
LIBRARY SERVICES DIRECTORATE
DIRECTOR OF LIBRARY SERVICES—Martin Reid
HEAD OF LIBRARY RESOURCES—Susannah Foulis, Katharine Marke
HEAD OF OPERATIONS AND ENGAGEMENT, HOUSE OF COMMONS LIBRARY—Amina Gual (Interim)
HEAD OF RESEARCH INFORMATION SERVICE—David Beales
INFORMATION MANAGER—Anne Thompson
R&I RESTORATION AND RENEWAL LEAD—Hannah Russell
PARLIAMENTARY OFFICE OF SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY (POST)
HEAD OF POST—Dr Grant Hill-Cawthorne
ADVISERS—Dr Rowena Bermingham, Dr Peter Border, Dr Sarah Bunn, Dr Lorna Christie, Dr Lydia Harriss,
Dr Abbi Hobbs, Jack Miller, Dr Jonathan Wentworth
KNOWLEDGE EXCHANGE MANAGERS—Dr Sarah Foxen, Naomi Saint
RESEARCH & INFORMATION DIRECTORATE
DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH—Edward Wood
BREXIT EDITOR—Fergal Davis
Business and Transport—
HEAD OF SECTION—Oliver Bennett MBE
LIBRARY CLERKS— Steve Browning, Louise Butcher, Daniel Ferguson, David Hirst, Antony Seely, Djuna Thurley
Economic Policy and Statistics—
HEAD OF SECTION—Lorna Booth
LIBRARY CLERKS—Philip Brien, Brigid Francis-Devine, Daniel Harari, Ilze Jozepa, Matthew Keep,
Andrew Powell, Chris Rhodes, Dominic Webb
Home Affairs—
HEAD OF SECTION—Douglas Pyper
LIBRARY CLERKS—Jacqueline Beard, Jenny Brown, Lorraine Conway, Joanna Dawson, Catherine Fairbairn,
Melanie Gower, Sally Lipscombe, Terry McGuinness, Hannah Wilkins, John Woodhouse
International Affairs and Defence —
HEAD OF SECTION—Dr Anna Dickson
LIBRARY CLERKS—Louise Brooke-Holland, John Curtis, Dr Sylvia de Mars, Dr Stefano Fella, Dr Jon Lunn,
Claire Mills, Ben Smith
Parliament and Constitution Centre—
HEAD OF SECTION (TEMPORARY)—Dr Mark Sandford
LIBRARY CLERKS—Graeme Cowie, Neil Johnston, Richard Kelly, Dr David Torrance
 HOUSE OF COMMONS—cont. xi

Science and Environment—

HEAD OF SECTION—Edward Potton
LIBRARY CLERKS—Dr Elena Ares, Bukky Balogun, Dr Sarah Barber, Elizabeth Rough, Sarah Coe, Jonathan
Finlay, Gabrielle Garton Grimwood, Suzanna Hinson, Georgina Hutton, Sara Priestley, Louise Smith
Social and General Statistics—
HEAD OF SECTION—Richard Cracknell
LIBRARY CLERKS—Grahame Allen, Dr Carl Baker, Cassie Barton, Paul Bolton, Shadi Danechi, Noel Dempsey,
Dr Rachael Harker, Georgina Sturge, Dr Elise Uberoi
Social Policy—
HEAD OF SECTION—Wendy Wilson
LIBRARY CLERKS—Hannah Cromarty, David Foster, Manjit Gheera, Susan Hubble, Tim Jarrett, Steven Kennedy,
Robert Long, Melissa Macdonald, Andrew Mackley, Elizabeth Parkin, Tom Powell, Nerys Roberts
RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT DIRECTORATE
DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT—Bryn Morgan
BUSINESS MANAGER—Rachel Aves
PERFORMANCE AND BUSINESS MANAGER—Alison Penman
HEAD OF CUSTOMER SERVICE, HOUSE OF COMMONS LIBRARY—Hannah Roberts
HEAD OF RESEARCH COMMUNICATIONS—Grace Rowley
LIBRARY 2020 PROGRAMME LEAD—Richard Keen
PEOPLE CAPABILITY LEAD—Claire Catherall
HEAD OF INDEXING AND DATA MANAGEMENT—Anya Somerville
DATA SCIENCE LEAD—Oliver Hawkins
STRATEGIC ESTATES
CHAIR OF STRATEGIC ESTATES BOARD—Ian Ailles
DIRECTOR PROPERTY, PLANNING & DESIGN—Donald Grant CEng
DIRECTOR OF CAPITAL INVESTMENT—Bev Weston
BUSINESS MANAGEMENT DIRECTOR—Charissa Fiander
RESTORATION AND RENEWAL PROGRAMME DELIVERY DIRECTOR—Matt White
NORTHERN ESTATE PROGRAMME DIRECTOR—John Cryer
HEAD OF FINANCE—Abiola Babalola
PARLIAMENTARY DIGITAL SERVICE
CHIEF INFORMATION OFFICER AND MANAGING DIRECTOR—Tracey Jessup
DEPUTY DIRECTOR (DELIVERY)—David Smith
CHIEF TECHNOLOGY & SECURITY OFFICER—Mark Harbord
DIRECTOR OF SERVICE DESIGN—Rebecca Elton
DIGITAL PORTFOLIO DIRECTOR—Dan Cook
DIRECTOR FOR R&R AND FUTURES / CYBER SECURITY CAPABILITY PROGRAMME—Steven Mark
DIRECTOR OF RESOURCES—Tim Youngs
DIRECTOR OF SOFTWARE ENGINEERING—Matt Stutely
DIRECTOR OF LIVE SERVICES—Rob Sanders
DIRECTOR OF HR—Richard Shoreland
INTERIM DEPUTY DIRECTOR (STRATEGY, IMPROVEMENT AND INNOVATION)—Michael Ekpe
HEAD OF MEMBER SERVICES—Graham Peek
OTHER PRINCIPAL OFFICERS
CLERK OF THE CROWN IN CHANCERY—Sir Richard Heaton, KCB
COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL—Gareth Davies
PARLIAMENTARY AND HEALTH SERVICE OMBUDSMAN—Rob Behrens CBE

19 December 2019
 THE
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES
OFFICIAL REPORT

IN THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT OF THE

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 17 DECEMBER 2019]

SIXTY-EIGHTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 669

FIRST VOLUME OF SESSION 2019-2021

House of Commons Election of Speaker

Tuesday 17 December 2019 Sir Peter Bottomley (in the Chair): Under the provisions
of Standing Order No. 1A, I am now required to
ascertain whether Sir Lindsay Hoyle is willing to be
The House met at half-past Two o’clock chosen as Speaker.
The House met on the first day of this Parliament,
pursuant to Proclamation. JOHN BENGER, Clerk of the
House of Commons, SARAH DAVIES, Clerk Assistant, and 2.48 pm
COLIN LEE, Principal Clerk of the Table Office, attended
in the House, and the other Clerks attended, according to Sir Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Ind): First, I would like
their duty. to thank the constituents of Chorley for allowing me to
put myself forward as Speaker, and I would also like to
SIR RICHARD HEATON, Deputy Clerk of the Crown in welcome all the new Members to the House. May I offer
Chancery in Great Britain, delivered to the said JOHN BENGER many congratulations to you on your new role as Father
a book containing a list of the Members returned to serve of the House, Sir Peter? Of course, this is nothing new
in this Parliament. to your family; as you know, you have great history in
SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY, the Member for Worthing West, this Room. You have served this place and your constituents
took the Chair (Standing Order No. 1). for 44 and a half years—it just goes to show all the
newcomers that this really can be a job for life—[Laughter.]
MESSAGE TO ATTEND THE LORDS And I do not think this is the end just yet.
COMMISSIONERS It has been an absolute privilege to serve as a Deputy
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners delivered Speaker for the past nine years and as Speaker for a full
by the Lady Usher of the Black Rod. two days; I have to say that that made the election pretty
The House went up to hear the Commission for opening easy. Of course, Parliament was dissolved last month
and holding the Parliament, and the Lords Commissioners and it would be an honour to serve again in this
directed the House to proceed to the Election of a Speaker Parliament—I hope that this time it would be for a little
and to present the Speaker-Elect in the House of Peers longer.
for the Royal Approbation. As I have said before, a Speaker has to be trusted, and
The House returned. I believe I was trusted as Deputy Speaker. I have a
proven track record of being impartial, independent
and fair, allowing Members to exercise their right to
speak regardless of the length of their service. [Interruption.]
I would have thought the new MPs would have given me
a bit of a boost on that—do not let those who have been
here a lot longer start dictating already! Having served
on the Back Benches for 13 years myself, I understand
how important it is for Back Benchers to be able to hold
the Government to account and to promote the causes
that are dear to them. On that basis, I submit myself to
the House as your Speaker and your champion. I will
ensure that my office is open to all.
3 Election of Speaker 17 DECEMBER 2019 Election of Speaker 4

2.50 pm very long time that things are not working for them.
Just let that sink in for a moment: “I can’t believe that
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I beg to move, That he was allowed to do it.” What does it say about how
Sir Lindsay Hoyle do take the Chair of this House as people feel in those communities—communities that
Speaker. have just sent shock waves through the political system,
I am delighted to propose someone who has been a many changing hands for the first time in 100 years?
great friend, not just to me but for many of us from all What does it say that they see Parliament as a whole as
parts of the House. When I arrived in this place nearly a bastion of privilege, where ordinary people like them
10 years ago as a newly elected MP, it was a daunting cannot wield power?
experience. For those of us who have not spent most of All of us in the House, whether we have won or lost,
our lives in buildings like these, it can be incredibly have done this place a service by electing to be our face
overwhelming. As the former Member for North West and our voice someone who people many miles distant
Durham, Laura Pidcock, said when she arrived, this from here see as one of their own. Many of us in this
place reeks of privilege. Finding our confidence and our place have known for some time that the system is not
voice for our constituents takes practice and time, but it working. I have had those conversations in the Division
also takes friendship and support from other people. Lobby and behind closed doors with Members of
It should be of comfort to all new Members of this Parliament from all political parties. We can feel the
House to know that they will find a great friend in our ground crumbling beneath our feet. We have seen it and
Speaker. With his typical Lancashire warmth, Members we have felt it, and we must give voice to it. That is why
will always find his door open for a mug of Yorkshire I am relieved, proud and honoured to propose that
tea—[Interruption]—and, of course, a Hobnob. A few Sir Lindsay Hoyle takes the Chair today.
years ago I was told the story of when Lindsay arrived Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 1A),
unannounced, as he often does, in another MP’s office. That Sir Lindsay Hoyle do take the Chair of this House
He sat down and said, “Right, put the kettle on then.” as Speaker.
“Yorkshire tea?” said the MP. “Absolutely,” said Lindsay, Question put and agreed to.
with enthusiasm, adding, “There are only two good SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY left the Chair, and SIR LINDSAY
things about Yorkshire: the tea and the M62 taking you HOYLE was conducted to the Chair by LISA NANDY and
back to Lancashire.” [Laughter.] If any Yorkshire MPs MR NIGEL EVANS.
would like to change their minds, now is the time, but I
am sure they will not, because above all else Lindsay has Mr Speaker-Elect (standing on the upper step): Before
always been a fair and non-partisan Deputy Speaker, I take the Chair as Speaker-Elect, I wish first to thank
even to those who hail from God’s own country. He the House for the honour that it has again bestowed
knows that to privilege some voices over others is to upon me. I am aware that it is the greatest honour it can
silence people in our communities up and down the give to any of its Members. I pray that I shall justify its
country. continuing confidence and I propose to do all within my
Lindsay can take his lack of partisanship a little bit power to preserve and to cherish its best traditions.
too far. In 2017, he asked me to come and launch his The Speaker-Elect sat down in the Chair and the Mace
general election campaign in what was then his marginal was placed upon the Table.
constituency of Chorley. It is one junction on the motorway
from Wigan to Chorley. I was driving down the motorway Mr Speaker-Elect: Before I call the Prime Minister, I
and I started to see these enormous billboards looming just say that we have a very busy day ahead of us, with
up out of the distance: great big blue billboards saying, further ceremony in the House of Lords and most
“For a strong and stable Chorley”. I started to panic returning hon. Members having to be sworn in. I therefore
and thought, “My God, they are targeting this place. encourage short speeches from party leaders and discourage
Lindsay hasn’t got a hope. I have to get there, motivate other Members from seeking to catch my eye. As much
his supporters and get people out.” Then, I looked as I would like to bask, it is more important to get Members
closer, and on these billboards was Lindsay’s face: “Vote sworn in. That is my commitment to the House.
Lindsay Hoyle for a strong and stable Chorley”. I think
the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) will 2.57 pm
be pleased to have inspired such mischief. That slogan
may not have worked out so well for the other side, but The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): Mr Speaker-Elect,
it certainly worked out well for Lindsay, who was returned I am sure that the whole House will join me in sending
to this place and became Deputy Speaker again. condolences to the families and friends of Jack Merritt
and Saskia Jones, who were murdered in the terrorist
Lindsay has always made the effort to work with attack near London Bridge during the election campaign.
people and respect people from all sides of the House. We pay tribute once again to the emergency services
Many of us on the Opposition Benches are deeply and to members of the public for the bravery they
saddened by the loss from this place of our friend, the showed.
former MP for Bolsover, but it is a comfort to know that Mr Speaker-Elect, I congratulate you on your office,
Lindsay has a cat named Dennis Skinner. The House and the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) who has
should be reassured that he never picks sides: he also just spoken. I do not know about you, Mr Speaker-Elect,
has a parrot called Boris. as you survey the House from your eminence, with the
There is a more serious point to make. When we characteristic beam that has brought you such deserved
chose Lindsay Hoyle to be our Speaker, someone back popularity, but I mean no disrespect to those who are
home said to me, “I can’t believe that he was allowed to no longer with us when I say that I think this Parliament
do it.” Wigan and Chorley are right next door to each is a vast improvement on its predecessor. Indeed, I would
other, and they are towns where people have felt for a say it is one of the best Parliaments that this country
5 Election of Speaker 17 DECEMBER 2019 Election of Speaker 6

has ever produced, with more female Members than we represent and for the more than 10 million people
ever before and more black and minority ethnic Members who voted for our party in the general election. Because
than ever before. It is also, incarnated in your person, that is what parliamentary democracy is about—holding
Mr Speaker-Elect, a vastly more democratic Parliament, the Government to account and representing the people
because it will not waste the nation’s time in deadlock, who sent us here on their behalf.
division and delay. On Friday, this Parliament will put I also offer my congratulations to the hon. Member
the withdrawal agreement in the popty ping, as we say for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) on taking up
in Wales. Then this new democratic Parliament—this his position as Father of the House. I first encountered
people’s Parliament—is going to do something. I wonder, him at the Woolwich West by-election in 1975. I was a
Mr Speaker-Elect, if you can guess what it is. What is trade union organiser at the time, and I made a very
this Parliament going to do? We are going to get Brexit strong recommendation to all the members of my union
done. [HON. MEMBERS: “Get Brexit done.”] Even your that they should vote for the Labour candidate, not
parrot would be able to recite that one by now. him. Some of them went to see him, came back and
We are going to get on with delivering the priorities said—it was quite embarrassing—“He seems such a
of the British people—transforming the NHS; investing very nice man. We might well vote for him.” I do not
massively in education and the police; and uniting and want to tarnish his reputation further, but whenever I
levelling up across the whole UK. It is my belief that was trying in the past to get an all-party consensus
most hon. Members in this House believe we should together on an early-day motion—sometimes a difficult
resist the calls of those who would break up the United task—he would often give it a Conservative character
Kingdom. As the Parliament of the United Kingdom, by supporting such moves. I thank him for that and
we should politely and respectfully defend that partnership wish him well as Father of the House.
and the Union. I can tell the House that, after three and May I take this opportunity to welcome all newly
a half years of wrangling and division, the Government elected Members to the House? It is a very daunting day
will do whatever we can to reach out across the House for them—their first day here after being elected to
to find common ground, to heal the divisions of our this place on behalf of their constituents, with all the
country and to find a new and generous spirit in which responsibility that goes with that. There is no greater
we conduct all our political dealings with one another honour than to be elected to this House to represent our
that will last beyond the immediate season of Christmas constituents, and one of the greatest strengths of our
goodwill. political system is that every one of us represents a
In that spirit, Mr Speaker-Elect, I congratulate you community and every one of us has a constituency. We
once again on your election and I look forward to the are here to represent the homeless and the desperate as
months and years ahead under your guidance. well as those who are better off and lead more comfortable
existences. We are here to represent all of them, and
3.1 pm that surely ought to be the watchword of our House
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): May I join and our democracy.
the Prime Minister in remembering the horror of what This is the first time that a majority of Labour MPs
happened at London Bridge just three weeks ago? It is are women, and I congratulate them all on being elected.
the third time in the last two general election campaigns Twenty of the 26 newly elected Labour MPs are women,
that we have witnessed appalling and depraved terrorist which compares rather favourably with the Conservative
attacks on our communities. Our hearts must go out to party’s performance in that regard. This is also the most
the families of Saskia Jones and Jack Merritt. When diverse Parliament in history, and I am proud that 41 of
the Prime Minister and I attended a memorial event the 65 black and minority ethnic MPs are on the Labour
at the Guildhall, I had the honour of meeting many of Benches. I know they will do a fantastic job representing
the students who had been at college with Jack, and their constituencies and wider community interests.
they were just devastated. In his memory, they wanted Finally, Mr Speaker-Elect, I offer my warmest
his work and his message to carry on. We should also congratulations to you as you resume your place in the
remember the very good words of his father David Speaker’s Chair. It is great to see you back. Your role goes
about how proud he was of his son on that day. That beyond the pomp and ceremony, as you well understand.
attack was an attempt to damage our democracy, to I am keen to work with you, as many others are, on all
halt the process. It did not succeed and it never should the issues facing this House. This House cannot function
succeed, because we have to make sure that our democracy without Members’ staff and House staff—security,
is fully intact. administration, caterers, cleaners and officials—who do
I would like to offer my congratulations to the so much good work here; they all make a contribution
Prime Minister on winning the election and being returned to ensure that our democracy functions properly. But
to office, and I want to pay tribute to those Members, there is also enormous pressure on MPs, staff and many
from my party particularly, who sadly lost their seats others, and I know that you take very seriously the
in the election and therefore will not be here. In mental health and wellbeing of us all. I hope that we in
particular, although many will be remembered, obviously this House ensure that that is taken seriously.
Dennis Skinner is somebody who comes very much to Mr Speaker-Elect, there are portraits of all your
mind on this occasion. predecessors in Speaker’s House. One of the most famous,
In the campaign, the Prime Minister made many of course, is Speaker Lenthall, who resisted the autocracy
promises and therefore has tremendous responsibilities of Charles I in support of the freedoms of Parliament.
to live up to. He will be judged on whether he keeps Our democracy needs you as a Speaker who will stand
those promises by the communities that he has made firm against abuses of power by the Executive or anybody
them to. Our job in the Labour party will be to hold the else. In doing so, you are defending the rights not just of
Government to account and stand up for the communities this House, but of millions of people who put their faith
7 Election of Speaker 17 DECEMBER 2019 Election of Speaker 8

[Jeremy Corbyn] House? In your election in the last Parliament, you

struck a chord with many Members when you spoke
in a democratic system to elect a Parliament, and therefore about improving the security of Members, staff and our
a Government, who are answerable to them. Our rights families. It is sad to say that you were right to lead on
and freedoms are always precious, but also often precarious. this, not least as we remember the two young victims of
Democracy is not a given. It is something that we have the terrorist attack on London Bridge—Saskia Jones
to extend and defend. I am sure that you, in your role as and Jack Merritt, two young people dedicated to helping
Speaker-Elect—and hopefully Speaker very soon—will others to whom we should pay tribute today as this
do exactly that. I congratulate you on your election and House returns.
look forward to working with you. Mr Speaker-Elect, I was delighted that in your acceptance
3.7 pm speech before the election you spoke eloquently and
positively about the speaking rights of smaller parties. I
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): The can assure you, Sir, that Liberal Democrat Members
whole House will want to join in the expression of the want to make their voices heard, not least on behalf of
Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister about the 3.7 million people who voted for us last Thursday.
the tragedy at Fishmongers’ Hall and London Bridge. Under proportional voting, we would now easily be the
Let me tell the Leader of the Opposition that he only third largest party in this House with 70 MPs—a fact
heard half the Woolwich West story, since I was a member that I know, Sir, you will take account of.
of the 1/128 branch of the Transport and General Workers’ You will appreciate, Mr Speaker-Elect, that the past
Union in Transport House and knew quite a lot about few days have been difficult for my colleagues and I,
what was going on. For instance, I knew which MPs having seen our friend Jo Swinson lose her seat.
were not standing again—such as Peter Shore—because Jo consistently said during the election that there is an
they had not applied for re-sponsorship and the like. It issue even bigger than Brexit—namely, the climate
was a marvellous experience for me. Let me also say to emergency. On these Benches, we will be seeking your
the Leader of the Opposition that none of us is always help as we raise this issue and argue for the radical
right and none of us is always wrong; and on the issues climate change policies that Jo advocated. Thank you,
where he and I have agreed, I think we have been right. Mr Speaker-Elect.
Mr Speaker-Elect, the advice that you might give in
private—but which I will give in public—to those joining
us for the first or even the second time is that they 3.12 pm
should listen to their Whips, obey the Chair, think of Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): On
the interests of their constituency and the nation, and behalf of the Democratic Unionist party, Mr Speaker-Elect,
do what they think is right. I think that is the kind of I want to associate ourselves with the remarks of the
thing that Speakers would remind us to do. May I Prime Minister. Coming from Northern Ireland, we
conclude by saying that there are many good things to know all too well the impact that terrorism can have
say about many of your predecessors, but I do not think and the devastation it wreaks on families, and our
that any of them have been such a welcome choice as thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims
Speaker, and Speaker again, as you? of that atrocity.
3.8 pm I congratulate you, Mr Speaker-Elect, on your re-election
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): May as Speaker. We regard you as someone who is fair and
I associate myself with the remarks of the Prime Minister upholds the rights of all Members in this House, and we
and the Leader of the Opposition about the absolutely look forward to working with you.
dreadful attacks at Fishmongers’ Hall and London I also congratulate the Prime Minister and the
Bridge? We must all stand together against terrorism Conservative party on their victory in the election. We
and stand up together for democracy. look forward to working with them going forward,
Mr Speaker-Elect, the expanded SNP Westminster particularly in relation to the matters that the Prime
group welcomes you to your new role. In the previous Minister spoke of—the Union of our United Kingdom
Parliament, I appreciated the fair and balanced approach of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. As the Prime
taken by the last Speaker, and I have no doubt that you Minister takes forward his proposals on Brexit, we want
will conduct proceedings with the same vigour and to ensure that Northern Ireland’s place within the United
transparency. These are uncertain and challenging times. Kingdom is secured and that the economic, political
The public are now looking to this place for leadership. and constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom is
We owe it to all those who put their trust in us to respected.
conduct debate here with respect and to treat each other May I, Mr Speaker-Elect, pay tribute to my colleagues
with dignity. the former Members for Belfast North, Nigel Dodds,
I give you, Mr Speaker-Elect, the best wishes from and for Belfast South, Emma Little-Pengelly, who are
the Scottish National party, and I look forward to not with us but who made a massive contribution to the
taking on the case for Scotland in this new Parliament work of this House in the last Parliament—and indeed,
with integrity and with dignity. All the very best to you, in the case of Nigel, over many years? I welcome my
Mr Speaker-Elect. hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart)
to our ranks, but also the other Members from Northern
3.10 pm Ireland who are today taking their seats for the first
Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): time in this House. We welcome the fact that they are
May I, Mr Speaker-Elect, give you heartfelt congratulations here and take their seats—unlike others—and will no
from those on the Liberal Democrat Benches and wish doubt make a contribution to this House and to the
you the very best as you manage the proceedings of this democratic process.
9 Election of Speaker 17 DECEMBER 2019 Election of Speaker 10

So, Mr Speaker-Elect, we wish you and all colleagues Mr Speaker-Elect, on behalf of an admittedly small
well in this Parliament. We look forward to outlining party, but one with a lot of ambition, I should like to
the voice of Northern Ireland along with our colleagues add my congratulations to you. I know from my own
and ensuring that our place in this Union is secure. experience just how serious you are when you say that
you will champion the interests of all of us from smaller
3.14 pm parties. With our democracy being tested to its limits in
recent months, I look forward to seeing your strong
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Diolch sense of fairness prevail, so that we can ensure that we
yn fawr, Mr Darpar-Lefarydd, a llongyfarchiadau i chi hold the Executive to account, especially by continuing
yn eich parchus, arswydus swydd newydd. Thank you,
to uphold your long tradition of giving Back Benchers
Mr Speaker-Elect, and congratulations to you on your
the opportunities to be heard and to play our part, no matter
respected, sublime new role. I and many people here were
the size of the political party from which we hail.
present on 22 March 2017, and there is no doubt in my
mind that the leadership and care that you showed us Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I have to
on that day have inevitably given us the faith to return signify to the House the pleasure of Her Majesty that
you with pleasure today. Of course, we sympathise with the House should present their Speaker this day at
all the victims of terrorist attacks in the intervening 3.45 pm in the House of Peers for Her Majesty’s Royal
time. Approbation.
Let me take the opportunity to call on you, Mr Speaker-
Mr Speaker-Elect: The House is suspended until 3.45 pm.
Elect, to work with the Llywydd in our Senedd
in Wales, the Presiding Officer in the Scottish Parliament 3.17 pm
and the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly in Sitting suspended.
the spirit of equality and mutual respect. I call on you
also to continue to develop the principles of equality, 3.52 pm
including equality of voice and equality of opportunity, On resuming—
much of which was upheld in the Speaker’s intern
scheme, an excellent scheme that has brought people MESSAGE TO ATTEND THE LORDS
into this place who would not otherwise have had the COMMISSIONERS
opportunity. Message to attend the Lords Commissioners delivered
I close by saying that all Members here were returned by the Lady Usher of the Black Rod.
in exactly the same way: by their—our—constituents. The Speaker-Elect, with the House, went up to be
Those constituents all stand equal, regardless of whether presented to the Lords Commissioners for Her Majesty’s
their MP is a member of the Government or the Opposition; Royal Approbation; and returned.
of a large party or a small party; or, indeed, the single
representative here. All those constituents are equal and Mr Speaker: I have to report that this House
they deserve respect. I have every confidence, Mr Speaker- has been in the House of Lords where Her Majesty
Elect, that you will ensure that their representatives here has been pleased, by Her Majesty’s Commissioners, to
will have that equality of voice so that they can best approve the choice made of myself for the office of
represent their constituents. Speaker.
My first duty to the House is to repeat my respectful
3.16 pm acknowledgements and my grateful thanks for the
great honour you have conferred on me in placing me
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I join in the Chair, and to renew the assurances of my entire
those who have paid tribute to the two young people devotion to the service of this House.
who were tragically killed on London bridge.
11 17 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 12

Members Sworn Right honourable Thérèse Anne Coffey, Suffolk Coastal

Right honourable Mark Steven Spencer, Sherwood
Mr Speaker: I must now call on the Members of the Right honourable Robert Edward Jenrick, Newark
House, according to the usual custom, to take the Oath Right honourable Robert Ben Lobban Wallace, Wyre
of Allegiance or to affirm at the Table of the House, and Preston North
first doing so myself.
Right honourable Alok Kumar Sharma, Reading West
The Speaker first, alone, standing on the upper step of
the Chair, took and subscribed the Oath required by law. Right honourable Andrea Jacqueline Leadsom, South
Northamptonshire
Mr Speaker: I should remind hon. Members that, Right honourable Brandon Kenneth Lewis, Great
until they take the Oath or affirm, they must not sit Yarmouth
during any debate or vote in any Division of the House, Right honourable Grant Shapps, Welwyn Hatfield
and they will not receive any salary—a big temptation. Right honourable Kwasi Alfred Addo Kwarteng, Spelthorne
The arrangements for swearing in are as set out in the Right honourable Gavin Alexander Williamson, South
Chamber information sheet and a guidance note is also Staffordshire
available from the Table Office and the Vote Office.
Right honourable Elizabeth Mary Truss, South West
I propose to call first the Father of the House, then Norfolk
members of the Cabinet, then members of the shadow
Cabinet, then all Privy Counsellors not included in those Right honourable Matthew John David Hancock, West
two groups, wherever they may be sitting, and then Suffolk
other Ministers. Thereafter, I shall call other hon. Members Right honourable and learned Charles Geoffrey Cox,
broadly according to the Parliament of their first entry, Torridge and West Devon
or, for those with broken service, that of their most Right honourable Theresa Anne Villiers, Chipping Barnet
recent entry. The first batch will be those who have been Right honourable Rishi Sunak, Richmond (Yorks)
Members since before the 2010 election. Thereafter, I
shall proceed to call Members by successive Parliaments. Right honourable Oliver James Dowden, Hertsmere
I do not expect to call new Members until tomorrow. Right honourable Stephen Paul Barclay, North East
I propose to remain in the Chair until 5.45 today and Cambridgeshire
to return at 6.45, continuing until 8.45, with a later Right honourable James Spencer Cleverly, Braintree
session if necessary. The House will sit again tomorrow Right honourable Jeremy Bernard Corbyn, Islington
at 11.30. I propose to be in the Chair for swearing in North
tomorrow from 11.30 until 1.30, to return at 2 until 4, Right honourable Nicholas Hugh Brown, Newcastle
and again from 4.30 until 5.45, with a later session if upon Tyne East
necessary. I hope that, by the end of tomorrow afternoon,
we will have made sufficient progress to enable all Right honourable Valerie Carol Marian Vaz, Walsall South
Members to swear in who wish to do so. However, if Right honourable Diane Julie Abbott, Hackney North
required, we will sit for swearing in at 2 o’clock on and Stoke Newington
Thursday before the opening of the debate on the Jonathan Michael Graham Ashworth, Leicester South
Queen’s Speech. Right honourable Emily Thornberry, Islington South
I remind Members that the swearing in, as a proceeding and Finsbury
of the House, is recorded by television cameras: anything Right honourable John Healey, Wentworth and Dearne
said or done by Members may appear on television or
be picked up on microphones. It will assist the broadcasters Dawn Petula Butler, Brent Central
if new Members state their name and constituency Richard Burgon, Leeds East
when they come to the Dispatch Box. Progress will Catherine Jane Smith, Lancaster and Fleetwood
depend, of course, on the number of Members wishing Andrew John Gwynne, Denton and Reddish
to swear in at any particular time. I advise Members to
watch the annunciators to establish progress, and to Peter Christopher Dowd, Bootle
speak to their Whips. Nia Rhiannon Griffith, Llanelli
The following Members took and subscribed the Oath, Barry Strachan Gardiner, Brent North
or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law: Andrew Joseph McDonald, Middlesbrough
Sir Peter James Bottomley, for Worthing West Right honourable Robert Henry Halfon, Harlow
Right honourable Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Ian Lavery, Wansbeck
Uxbridge and South Ruislip Afzal Mohammed Khan, Manchester, Gorton
Right honourable Priti Sushil Patel, Witham Anthony Joseph Lloyd, Rochdale
Right honourable Dominic Rennie Raab, Esher and Right honourable Theresa Mary May, Maidenhead
Walton Right honourable Dame Cheryl Elise Kendall Gillan,
Right honourable and learned Robert James Buckland, Chesham and Amersham
South Swindon Right honourable Margaret Mary Beckett, Derby South
Right honourable Jacob William Rees-Mogg, North East Right honourable and learned Sir Oliver Heald, North
Somerset East Hertfordshire
Right honourable Sajid Javid, Bromsgrove Right honourable Alexander Jesse Norman, Hereford
Right honourable Michael Andrew Gove, Surrey Heath and South Herefordshire
13 Members Sworn 17 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 14

Right honourable Edward Samuel Miliband, Doncaster Barry John Sheerman, Huddersfield
North Rosemary Elizabeth Cooper, West Lancashire
Right honourable Dame Rosalie Winterton, Doncaster Yasmin Qureshi, Bolton South East
Central
Virendra Kumar Sharma, Ealing, Southall
Right honourable Ian Blackford, Ross, Skye and Lochaber
Mohammad Yasin, Bedford
Right honourable Hilary James Benn, Leeds Central
Karen Patricia Buck, Westminster North
Right honourable Sir David Anthony Evennett, Bexleyheath
Olukemi Olufunto Badenoch, Saffron Walden
and Crayford
Julia Louise Lopez, Hornchurch and Upminster
Right honourable Mark Gino Francois, Rayleigh and
Wickford Nadine Vanessa Dorries, Mid Bedfordshire
Right honourable James Peter Brokenshire, Old Bexley Right honourable Jeremy Richard Streynsham Hunt,
and Sidcup South West Surrey
Right honourable Christopher Stephen Grayling, Epsom Right honourable Liam Fox, North Somerset
and Ewell Right honourable Dame Eleanor Fulton Laing, Epping
Right honourable David Michael Davis, Haltemprice Forest
and Howden Right honourable Mark Richard Tami, Alyn and Deeside
Right honourable Sir Roger James Gale, North Thanet Judith Mary Cummins, Bradford South
Right honourable Sir Edward Julian Egerton Leigh, Lyn Carol Brown, West Ham
Gainsborough Jessica Elizabeth Morden, Newport East
Right honourable Sir Desmond Angus Swayne, New Shailesh Lakhman Vara, North West Cambridgeshire
Forest West
Stephen William Hammond, Wimbledon
Right honourable Sir George Edward Howarth, Knowsley
Right honourable Stephen Creswell Timms, East Ham
Right honourable Nicolas John Gibb, Bognor Regis
and Littlehampton Michael Lee Amesbury, Weaver Vale
Barbara Mary Keeley, Worsley and Eccles South John Derek Twigg, Halton
Right honourable Stephen Crabb, Preseli Pembrokeshire Right honourable George Iain Duncan Smith, Chingford
and Woodford Green
Right honourable and learned Jeremy Paul Wright,
Kenilworth and Southam Iain Aitken Stewart, Milton Keynes South
Right honourable Damian Howard Green, Ashford Sir Robert Andrew Raymond Syms, Poole
Right honourable Caroline Fiona Ellen Nokes, Romsey Caroline Julia Dinenage, Gosport
and Southampton North Justin Paul Tomlinson, North Swindon
Right honourable Julian Murray Lewis, New Forest Right honourable Owen William Paterson, North
East Shropshire
Right honourable Maria Frances Lewis Miller, Basingstoke Right honourable Kevan David Jones, North Durham
Right honourable David Lindon Lammy, Tottenham Right honourable Alan Campbell, Tynemouth
Mary Josephine Robinson, Cheadle Right honourable Penny Mary Mordaunt, Portsmouth
Right honourable Karen Anne Bradley, Staffordshire North
Moorlands Right honourable and learned Michael Tyrone Ellis,
Right honourable Andrew William Murrison, South Northampton North
West Wiltshire Graham Charles Stuart, Beverley and Holderness
Right honourable Mark James Harper, Forest of Dean Right honourable Sir John Henry Hayes, South Holland
Right honourable Philip Martin Dunne, Ludlow and The Deepings
Right honourable David Gordon Mundell, Dumfriesshire, Victoria Atkins, Louth and Horncastle
Clydesdale and Tweeddale Right honourable Robert Goodwill, Scarborough and
Right honourable David Ian Jones, Clwyd West Whitby
Right honourable Christopher James Skidmore, Kingswood James McMahon, Oldham West and Royton
Right honourable Esther Louise McVey, Tatton Stephen James Morgan, Portsmouth South
Right honourable Sir Edward Jonathon Davey, Kingston Mark Robert Timothy Garnier, Wyre Forest
and Surbiton Andrew James Bridgen, North West Leicestershire
Right honourable Alexander Morrison Carmichael, Orkney Right honourable Damian Patrick George Hinds, East
and Shetland Hampshire
Right honourable Gregory William Hands, Chelsea Right honourable Alec Shelbrooke, Elmet and Rothwell
and Fulham
Wendy Morton, Aldridge-Brownhills
Right honourable Gregory David Clark, Tunbridge
Wells Kevin John Foster, Torbay
Right honourable and learned Harriet Ruth Harman, Johanna Peta Churchill, Bury St Edmunds
Camberwell and Peckham Thomas Christopher John Pursglove, Corby
Right honourable Dame Margaret Eve Hodge, Barking Graham Eric Stringer, Blackley and Broughton
15 Members Sworn 17 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 16

Pauline Elizabeth Latham, Mid Derbyshire Catherine McKinnell, Newcastle upon Tyne North
Angela Eagle, Wallasey Anna Rhiannon McMorrin, Cardiff North
Alister William Jack, Dumfries and Galloway Atta-Ur-Rehman Chishti, Gillingham and Rainham
Right honourable Samuel Wilson, East Antrim Catherine Elizabeth West, Hornsey and Wood Green
Conor Patrick McGinn, St Helens North Jonathan Simon Djanogly, Huntingdon
Gavin James Robinson, Belfast East Chinyelu Susan Onwurah, Newcastle upon Tyne Central
Edward John Comport Argar, Charnwood Paul Stuart Scully, Sutton and Cheam
Heather Kay Wheeler, South Derbyshire Sir Alexander Paul Beresford, Mole Valley
John David Penrose, Weston-super-Mare Sir Geoffrey Robert Clifton-Brown, The Cotswolds
Margaret Olivia Hillier, Hackney South and Shoreditch Right honourable John Flasby Lawrance Whittingdale,
Marie Elizabeth Rimmer, St Helens South and Whiston Maldon
Catherine Malloy Hollern, Blackburn Royston Matthew Smith, Southampton, Itchen
Right honourable Sir Jeffrey Mark Donaldson, Lagan Stephen Anthony McPartland, Stevenage
Valley Nigel Martin Evans, Ribble Valley
Richard Michael John Ogilvie Graham, Gloucester William James Quince, Colchester
Andrew George Stephenson, Pendle Marcus Charles Jones, Nuneaton
Margaret Ann Throup, Erewash Alberto Castrenze Costa, South Leicestershire
Yvonne Helen Fovargue, Makerfield Sheryll Murray, South East Cornwall
Imran Hussain, Bradford East Nusrat Munir Ghani, Wealden
John Robert Lamont, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk David Thomas Morris, Morecambe and Lunesdale
Douglas Gordon Ross, Moray Andrew Richard Rosindell, Romford
Right honourable Sir John Alan Redwood, Wokingham Lucy Claire Frazer, South East Cambridgeshire
James Whiteside Gray, North Wiltshire Right honourable Alun Hugh Cairns, Vale of Glamorgan
Sir Graham Stuart Brady, Altrincham and Sale West Sir David Anthony Andrew Amess, Southend West
Robert James MacGillivray Neill, Bromley and Chislehurst Alexander Cunningham, Stockton North
Right honourable John Francis Spellar, Warley Christian John Patrick Matheson, City of Chester
Maria Eagle, Garston and Halewood Marsha Chantol De Cordova, Battersea
Anneliese Jane Dodds, Oxford East Christopher Laurie Malthouse, North West Hampshire
Daniel Owen Jarvis, Barnsley Central William David Wiggin, North Herefordshire
Right honourable John Martin McDonnell, Hayes and Sir William Nigel Paul Cash, Stone
Harlington
Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi, Slough 5.57 pm
Seema Malhotra, Feltham and Heston Sitting suspended.
Timothy Paul Loughton, East Worthing and Shoreham
Sir Charles Ashley Rupert Walker, Broxboume 6.47 pm
Shabana Mahmood, Birmingham, Ladywood On resuming—
Christina Elizabeth Rees, Neath The following Members took and subscribed the Oath,
or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law:
Christopher John Bryant, Rhondda
Nicklaus Thomas-Symonds, for Torfaen
Alan Patrick Vincent Whitehead, Southampton, Test
Joanna Meriel Stevens, Cardiff Central
Christopher Philip James Elmore, Ogmore
Michael Joseph Patrick Kane, Wythenshawe and Sale
Carolyn Harris, Swansea East East
Gerald Jones, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney James Morris, Halesowen and Rowley Regis
Simon James Hoare, North Dorset Tracey Elizabeth Anne Crouch, Chatham and Aylesford
Victoria Mary Boswell Prentis, Banbury Nadhim Zahawi, Stratford-on-Avon
Robin Caspar Walker, Worcester Matthew Robert Warman, Boston and Skegness
Craig Whittaker, Calder Valley Stephen Daniel Double, St Austell and Newquay
Lilian Rachel Greenwood, Nottingham South Robert William Henry Seely, Isle of Wight
Preet Kaur Gill, Birmingham, Edgbaston Benjamin David Bradley, Mansfield
Ranil Malcolm Jayawardena, North East Hampshire Right honourable Conor Burns, Bournemouth West
Leo Docherty, Aldershot Laurence Anthony Robertson, Tewkesbury
Gregory Lloyd Campbell, East Londonderry Robert Alexander Stewart, Beckenham
Right honourable Christopher John Pincher, Tamworth Stewart Hosie, Dundee East
Right honourable Andrew John Bower Mitchell, Henry Edward Millar Smith, Crawley
Sutton Coldfield Paul Christopher Maynard, Blackpool North and Cleveleys
17 Members Sworn 17 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 18

Robert John Blackman, Harrow East Neil Quentin Gordon Parish, Tiverton and Honiton
John Philip Glen, Salisbury Daniel Joseph Carden, Liverpool, Walton
Richard Quentin Fuller, North East Bedfordshire Neil Charles Gray, Airdrie and Shotts
Nigel Adams, Selby and Ainsty Andrew Hanson Jones, Harrogate and Knaresborough
Karl McCartney, Lincoln Paul Bristow, Peterborough
Sir Gary Nicholas Streeter, South West Devon Greg Smith, Buckingham
Adam Afriyie, Windsor Craig Mackinlay, South Thanet
David Thomas Charles Davies, Monmouth Holly Jamie Lynch, Halifax
Fabian Hamilton, Leeds North East Julie Elliott, Sunderland Central
Gillian Furniss, Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough Mark Andrew Menzies, Fylde
Colleen Margaret Fletcher, Coventry North East Giacomo Lopresti, Filton and Bradley Stoke
Miriam Jane Alice Davies, Mid Sussex Andrea Marie Jenkyns, Morley and Outwood
Timothy James Farron, Westmorland and Lonsdale Anne-Marie Belinda Trevelyan, Berwick-upon-Tweed
Christopher Heaton-Harris, Daventry Patricia Gibson, North Ayrshire and Arran
Daniel Robert Kawczynski, Shrewsbury and Atcham David James Duguid, Banff and Buchan
Rebecca Faye Pow, Taunton Deane Jack Edgar Brereton, Stoke-on-Trent South
James Stephen Heappey, Wells Joanna Mary Gideon, Stoke-on-Trent Central
Right honourable Sir Gregory Knight, East Yorkshire Marco Longhi, Dudley North
Peter Wishart, Perth and North Perthshire Alexander John Gervase Chalk, Cheltenham
Patrick John Grady, Glasgow North Robert Alexander Courts, Witney
Carol Frances Monaghan, Glasgow North West Andrew Iain Lewer, Northampton South
James Ian Mearns, Gateshead Craig Paul Tracey, North Warwickshire
Anthony James Holland Mangnall, Totnes Paul Christopher Blomfield, Sheffield Central
James Philip Duddridge, Rochford and Southend East Matthew Raymond Western, Warwick and Leamington
Victoria Grace Ford, Chelmsford Katherine Anne Green, Stretford and Urmston
Kelly Jane Tolhurst, Rochester and Strood Steven John Baker, Wycombe
Nicholas Desmond John Smith, Blaenau Gwent Jacqueline Doyle-Price, Thurrock
Philip Andrew Davies, Shipley Simon Anthony Hart, Carmarthen West and South
Right honourable Damian Howard Green, Ashford Pembrokeshire
Angus Brendan MacNeil, Na h-Eileanan an Iar David Henry Rutley, Macclesfield
Martin John Docherty-Hughes, West Dunbartonshire Stephen James McCabe, Birmingham, Selly Oak
Alison Emily Thewliss, Glasgow Central Michael Robert Hill, Hartlepool
Emma Louise Lewell-Buck, South Shields Michael Louis David Fabricant, Lichfield
Gordon Leonard Henderson, Sittingbourne and Sheppey Guy Thomas Opperman, Hexham
Kevin Denis Brennan, Cardiff West Daniel Stephen Zeichner, Cambridge
Jeremy Mark Quin, Horsham Ian Murray, Edinburgh South
Simon Richard Clarke, Middlesbrough South and East Clive Stanley Efford, Eltham
Cleveland Michael James Tomlinson, Mid Dorset and North Poole
Thangam Elizabeth Rachel Debbonaire, Bristol West Derek Gordon Thomas, St Ives
Deborah Angela Elspeth Marie Abrahams, Oldham Peter William Bone, Wellingborough
East and Saddleworth Naseem Akhtar Shah, Bradford West
Maria Colette Caulfield, Lewes Matthew Thomas Pennycook, Greenwich and Woolwich
Fiona Claire Bruce, Congleton Amanda Jane Solloway, Derby North
Karin Marguerite Smyth, Bristol South William Roffen Esterson, Sefton Central
Crispin Jeremy Rupert Blunt, Reigate Stuart Campbell McDonald, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and
Michael Whitney Freer, Finchley and Golders Green Kirkintilloch East
Nigel Paul Huddleston, Mid Worcestershire George William Freeman, Mid Norfolk
Damien Moore, Southport Helen Olivia Bicknell Whately, Faversham and Mid Kent
Abimbola Afolami, Hitchin and Harpenden Ian Richard Kyle Paisley, North Antrim
Jonathan Cruddas, Dagenham and Rainham Julian Charles Sturdy, York Outer
Christopher James Evans, Islwyn Mark Ian Jenkinson, Workington
Stuart James Andrew, Pudsey BridgetMaevePhillipson,HoughtonandSunderlandSouth
Luke Anthony Hall, Thornbury and Yate Janet Jessica Daby, Lewisham East
Christopher Lionel John Loder, West Dorset Ruth Lorraine Jones, Newport West
19 Members Sworn 17 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 20

Steven Mark Ward Reed, Croydon North Geraint Richard Davies, Swansea West
Kirsten Frances Oswald, East Renfrewshire Gareth Andrew Bacon, Orpington
Stella Judith Creasy, Walthamstow Ben Spencer, Runnymede and Weybridge
Amanda Anne Milling, Cannock Chase Mark Peter Fletcher, Bolsover
Mark Julian Francis Pawsey, Rugby Emma Ann Hardy, Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle
Robin John Millar, Aberconwy Margaret Greenwood, Wirral West
Philip Thomas Hollobone, Kettering Rebecca Long Bailey, Salford and Eccles
Clive James Charles Betts, Sheffield South East Sir Mark Phillip Hendrick, Preston
Stephen John Doughty, Cardiff South and Penarth Fay Alicia Jones, Brecon and Radnorshire
Peter James Guy Aldous, Waveney Simon Robert Maurice Baynes, Clwyd South
Tahir Ali, Birmingham, Hall Green Christopher Mark Clarkson, Heywood and Middleton
John Eugene Joseph Dromey, Birmingham, Erdington Wayne David, Caerphilly
Elizabeth Louise Kendall, Leicester West Christian Wakeford, Bury South
Rachel Jane Reeves, Leeds West Paul John Holmes, Eastleigh
Right honourable Patrick Bosco McFadden, Jonathan Edward Gullis, Stoke-on-Trent North
Wolverhampton South East
Justin Piers Richard Madders, Ellesmere Port and Neston
Kieran John Mullan, Crewe and Nantwich
Sharon Hodgson, Washington and Sunderland West
Lloyd Russell-Moyle, Brighton, Kemptown
Rachael Helen Maskell, York Central
Thomas William Randall, Gedling
Clive Anthony Lewis, Norwich South
James Nelson Grundy, Leigh
Siobhain Ann McDonagh, Mitcham and Morden
Dean Russell, Watford
Mary Elizabeth Twist, Blaydon
Nicholas Anthony Fletcher, Don Valley
Kate Ofunne Osamor, Edmonton 8.39 pm
Lisa Eva Nandy, Wigan Sitting suspended.
Lucy Maria Powell, Manchester Central 9.13 pm
Stephen Nathan Kinnock, Aberavon On resuming—
William Paul Girvan, South Antrim The following Members took and subscribed the Oath,
Imran Nasir Ahmad-Khan, Wakefield or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law:
Lisa Cameron, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow Right honourable Elizabeth Saville Roberts, for Dwyfor
Meirionnydd
Margaret Ferrier, Rutherglen and Hamilton West
Ben Morgan Lake, Ceredigion
Ronald Jack Cowan, Inverclyde
David Jonathan Edwards, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr
John Joseph Mc Nally, Falkirk
Hywel Williams, Arfon
Matthew Toby Perkins, Chesterfield
Mary Theresa Glindon, North Tyneside
Richard James Shannon, Strangford
Feryal Demirci Clark, Enfield North
Robert Largan, High Peak
Harriett Mary Morison Baldwin, West Worcestershire
Martyn Day, Linlithgow and East Falkirk
John Michael Howell, Henley
Chris Ian Brian Mynott Philp, Croydon South
Nicola Faye Richards, West Bromwich East
Ruth Margaret Cadbury, Brentford and Isleworth
Richard John Holden, North West Durham
Charalambos Charalambous, Enfield, Southgate
Peter Alexander Gibson, Darlington
Karl Turner, Kingston upon Hull East
Jane Marion Hunt, Loughborough
Victoria Jane Foxcroft, Lewisham, Deptford
Aaron Stuart Bell, Newcastle-under-Lyme
Tracy Lynn Brabin, Batley and Spen
Dehenna Sheridan Fareham, Bishop Auckland
Jacob Young, Redcar
Anne Marie Morris, Newton Abbot
Jason McCartney, Colne Valley
Paul Howell, Sedgefield
Luke Pollard, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport
Sarah Ann Jones, Croydon Central
Right honourable Liam Dominic Byrne, Birmingham, ADJOURNMENT
Hodge Hill Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—(Nigel
Antonia Louise Antoniazzi, Gower Huddleston.)
Chloe Rebecca Smith, Norwich North 9.34 pm
Peter John Kyle, Hove House adjourned.
Owen George Thompson, Midlothian
21 18 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 22

House of Commons Julian Carlton Knight, Solihull

Wera Benedicta Hobhouse, Bath
Diana Ruth Johnson, Kingston upon Hull North
Wednesday 18 December 2019 Anthony Edward Timpson, Eddisbury
Andrew Campbell Bowie, West Aberdeenshire and
The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Kincardine
Natalie Cecilia Elphicke, Dover
PRAYERS David Melvyn Linden, Glasgow East
Gavin Andrew Stuart Newlands, Paisley and Renfrewshire
North
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
Brendan O’Hara, Argyll and Bute
Members Sworn Andrew Egan Henderson Hendry, Inverness, Nairn,
Badenoch and Strathspey
Mr Speaker: I remind the House that I expect to be in Alan Brown, Kilmarnock and Loudoun
the Chair today until 1.30 pm and return at 2 pm, until Douglas Chapman, Dunfermline and West Fife
4 pm, and then again at 4.30 pm to 5.45 pm, with a later Marion Fellows, Motherwell and Wishaw
session if necessary. If required, we will sit swearing in
Stewart Malcolm McDonald, Glasgow South
at 2 pm tomorrow. I invite the first Members elected
prior to the current Parliament to take the oath and will Hannah Mary Bardell, Livingston
make further announcements to invite Members first Right honourable James Jacob Gilchrist Berry, Rossendale
elected to the present Parliament. Will Members wishing and Darwen
to take their seats please come to the Table? Matthew James Offord, Hendon
The following Members took and subscribed the Oath, Jessica Rose Phillips, Birmingham, Yardley
or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law:
Wesley Paul William Streeting, Ilford North
Eleanor Claire Reeves, for Lewisham West and Penge
Huw William Merriman, Bexhill and Battle
Right honourable Sir Michael Penning, Hemel Hempstead
Khalid Mahmood, Birmingham, Perry Barr
Ian Richard Peregrine Liddell-Grainger, Bridgwater and
West Somerset Alison McGovern, Wirral South
Stephen James Metcalfe, South Basildon and East Thurrock Lee Anderson, Ashfield
Kevin Paul Hollinrake , Thirsk and Malton Christopher James Green, Bolton West
Richard Grosvenor Drax, South Dorset Trudy Lynne Harrison, Copeland
Ben Everitt, Milton Keynes North Caroline Elizabeth Johnson, Sleaford and North Hykeham
William Peter Wragg, Hazel Grove Sarah Jane Olney, Richmond Park
Felicia Jane Beatrix Drummond, Meon Valley Daisy Cooper, St Albans
Daniel Rayne Kruger, Devizes Wendy Anne Chamberlain, North East Fife
Alun Craig Williams, Montgomeryshire Christopher Murray Alexander Law, Dundee West
Scott Leslie Mann, North Cornwall Peter Grant, Glenrothes
Christine Anne Jardine, Edinburgh West Giles Francis Watling, Clacton
Mark Rory Logan, Bolton North East Claire Aisling Hanna, Belfast South
James Barry Daly, Bury North Mark Andrew Pritchard, The Wrekin
Caroline Lucas, Brighton, Pavilion Alan Mak, Havant
Right honourable Tobias Martin Ellwood, Bournemouth Nicola Jane Aiken, Cities of London and Westminster
East
Siobhan Kathleen Baillie, Stroud
James Roger Cartlidge, South Suffolk
Kirsty Ann Blackman, Aberdeen North
Jamie Hume Stone, Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross
Alicia Alexandra Martha Kearns, Rutland and Melton
Helen Elizabeth Hayes, Dulwich and West Norwood
Ruth Rosamond Edwards, Rushcliffe
Andrew Edmund Armstrong Selous, South West
Bedfordshire Joy Inboden Morrissey, Beaconsfield
Rebecca Elizabeth Scott Harris, Castle Point Luke Morgan Evans, Bosworth
Jonathan Neil Reynolds, Stalybridge and Hyde Julie Marson, Hertford and Stortford
John Robert Cryer, Leyton and Wanstead Andrew Francis Slaughter, Hammersmith
Gillian Keegan, Chichester Gareth Alan Johnson, Dartford
Martin John Vickers, Cleethorpes Jane Fiona Catherine Stevenson, Wolverhampton North
Andrew John Stevenson, Carlisle East
Daniel Leonard James Poulter, Central Suffolk and Christopher Charles Stephens, Glasgow South West
North Ipswich Alexander David Sobel, Leeds North West
Michelle Emma May Elizabeth Donelan, Chippenham Zarah Sultana, Coventry South
23 Members Sworn 18 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 24

Apsana Begum, Poplar and Limehouse Thomas Patrick Hunt, Ipswich

Thomas Sheppard, Edinburgh East Abena Oppong-Asare, Erith and Thamesmead
Jerome Patrick Burke Mayhew, Broadland James Stewart Murray , Ealing North
James Oliver Wild, North West Norfolk Marcus John Hudson Fysh, Yeovil
Gareth Mark Davies, Grantham and Stamford Edmund Francis Hughes, Walsall North
Stuart Paul Anderson, Wolverhampton South West Selaine Rachel Saxby, North Devon
Felicity Christiana Buchan, Kensington Mohammad Saqib Bhatti, Meriden
James Michael Davies, Vale of Clwyd Sue-Ellen Cassiana Braverman, Fareham
Andrew Theakstone Percy, Brigg and Goole
Caroline Ansell, Eastbourne
Bellavia Janet Ribeiro-Addy, Streatham
Jamie Hamilton Wallis, Bridgend
Tulip Rizwana Siddiq, Hampstead and Kilburn
Sarah Elizabeth Atherton, Wrexham
Virginia Ann Crosbie, Ynys Môn Mr Speaker: The sitting is suspended until 2 pm. The
Miriam Joy Cates, Penistone and Stocksbridge bells will ring five minutes before the sitting resumes.
Thanks, everybody.
Duncan Charles Baker, North Norfolk
Brendan Clarke-Smith, Bassetlaw 1.33 pm
Kate Elizabeth Griffiths, Burton Sitting suspended.
Suzanne Webb, Stourbridge
Shaun Stephen Bailey, West Bromwich West 2 pm
Gary William Sambrook, Birmingham, Northfield On resuming—
Deidre Leanne Brock, Edinburgh North and Leith The following Members took and subscribed the Oath,
or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law:
Robert Joseph Roberts, Delyn
Mary Kelly Foy, for City of Durham
Sir Bernard Christison Jenkin, Harwich and North Essex
Rosena Chantelle Allin-Khan, Tooting
Munira Wilson, Twickenham
Michael Whitley, Birkenhead
Joanna Catherine Cherry, Edinburgh South West Paula Barker, Liverpool, Wavertree
Grahame Mark Morris, Easington Kim Marie Johnson, Liverpool, Riverside
Anthony Howe Browne, South Cambridgeshire Navendu Prabhat Mishra, Stockport
Cherilyn Mackrory, Truro and Falmouth Carla Rebecca Lockhart, Upper Bann
Mhairi Black, Paisley and Renfrewshire South Ian Robert Byrne, Liverpool, West Derby
Angela Crawley, Lanark and Hamilton East Bethan Winter, Cynon Valley
Elizabeth Anne McLaughlin, Glasgow North East John Luther Mercer, Plymouth, Moor View
Laura Rose Farris, Newbury Sarah Elizabeth Dines, Derbyshire Dales
Ian Levy, Blyth Valley Steven Bonnar, Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill
Katherine Fletcher, South Ribble Allan Hopkins Dorans, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock
Alexander James Jorden Norris, Nottingham North Alyn Edward Smith, Stirling
Sara Alice Britcliffe, Hyndburn David Michael Doogan, Angus
Antony Higginbotham, Burnley Kenny Wright MacAskill, East Lothian
Claire Coryl Julia Coutinho, East Surrey Richard Gordon Thomson, Gordon
Amy Callaghan, East Dunbartonshire
Darren George Henry, Broxtowe
Philippa Whitford, Central Ayrshire
Gareth Thomas, Harrow West
Alexandra Mary Davies-Jones, Pontypridd
Rupa Asha Huq, Ealing Central and Acton
Rachel Louise Hopkins, Luton South
Michael Alex Burghart, Brentwood and Ongar
Stephen Anthony Farry, North Down
Thomas Georg John Tugendhat, Tonbridge and Malling Sarah Deborah Champion, Rotherham
Robert Butler, Aylesbury Scott Lloyd Benton, Blackpool South
David Timothy Simmonds, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner Right honourable Benjamin Peter James Bradshaw, Exeter
Rachel Helen Maclean, Redditch Charles George Eustice, Camborne and Redruth
Matthew Alexander Vickers, Stockton South Michael Jon Wood, Dudley South
Robert Peter Moore, Keighley Helen Grant, Maidstone and The Weald
Stephanie Louise Peacock, Barnsley East Katharine Helen Osborne, Jarrow
Louise Margaret Haigh, Sheffield, Heeley Gagan Mohindra, South West Hertfordshire
Holly Mumby-Croft, Scunthorpe Nadia Edith Whittome, Nottingham East
Lia Nici-Townend, Great Grimsby Nigel John Mills, Amber Valley
Right honourable Yvette Cooper, Normanton, Pontefract James Neale Hanvey, Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath
and Castleford Neil John O’Brien, Harborough
Simon James Jupp, East Devon Lucy Allan, Telford
25 Members Sworn 18 DECEMBER 2019 Members Sworn 26

Jeffrey Smith, Manchester, Withington Simon Richard James Fell, Barrow and Furness
Taiwo Owatemi, Coventry North West Lee Benjamin Rowley, North East Derbyshire
Rosemary Clare Duffield, Canterbury Laura Trott, Sevenoaks
James Sunderland, Bracknell Layla Michelle Moran, Oxford West and Abingdon
John Charles Baron, Basildon and Billericay Theodora Roosevelt Clarke, Stafford
Fleur Anderson, Putney Samuel Peter Tarry, Ilford South
Neil Coyle, Bermondsey and Old Southwark
Mathew Richard Allen Rodda, Reading East
Florence Eshalomi, Vauxhall
Neil Peter Hammerton Hudson, Penrith and The Border
Sarah Mei Li Owen, Luton North
Richard Michael Bacon, South Norfolk
Mr Speaker: Order. The sitting is suspended until Rushanara Ali, Bethnal Green and Bow
3.40 pm. The bells will ring five minutes before the Elliot Colburn, Carshalton and Wallington
sitting is resumed. Thanks, everybody.
Mr Speaker: The sitting is suspended until 4.30 pm.
2.58 pm The bells will ring five minutes before the sitting resumes.
Sitting suspended. Thanks, everybody.
3.40 pm 4.2 pm
On resuming— Sitting suspended.
The following Members took and subscribed the Oath, 4.28 pm
or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law: On resuming—
Andrew Griffith, for Arundel and South Downs The following Members took and subscribed the Oath,
Claudia Naomi Webbe, Leicester East or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law:
David Mervyn Johnston, Wantage Mark Simon Eastwood, for Dewsbury
Sally-Ann Hart, Hastings and Rye Jonathan George Caladine Lord, Woking
Angela Joy Richardson, Guildford John MacKenzie Nicolson, Ochil and South Perthshire
Sir Christopher Robert Chope, Christchurch Angela Rayner, Ashton-under-Lyne
Olivia Frances Blake, Sheffield, Hallam
Right honourable Melvyn John Stride, Central Devon
ADJOURNMENT
Andrew John Carter, Warrington South
Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—(Nigel
Charlotte Louise Nichols, Warrington North Huddleston.)
Right honourable and learned Keir Starmer, Holborn
and St Pancras 5.10 pm
Alexander Paul Thomas Stafford, Rother Valley House adjourned.
David John Warburton, Somerton and Frome
27 19 DECEMBER 2019 Speaker’s Statement 28

House of Commons our constituents, but we are also part of a wider

parliamentary community. I consider it essential that all
hon. Members, both new and returning, undertake the
Thursday 19 December 2019 Valuing Everyone training. The behaviour code applies
to Members as it applies to others who visit or work in
The House met at twenty-five minutes past Eleven Parliament, and provides clear guidance. Unacceptable
o’clock behaviour will be dealt with seriously, independently
and with effective sanctions.
PRAYERS The House asserts its privilege of freedom of speech.
It is there to ensure that our constituents can be represented
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] by us without fear or favour. It is an obligation upon us
all to exercise that privilege responsibly. Members must
Message to attend Her Majesty delivered by the Lady be mindful of the impact of what they say, not only on
Usher of the Black Rod. other Members but on others who follow our proceedings,
The Speaker, with the House, went up to attend Her Majesty; and Members should be heard courteously, whatever
on their return, the Speaker suspended the sitting. their views. That privilege is enjoyed by Members of
Parliament only in their work in this House: as private
individuals, we are equal under the law with those
Members Sworn whom we represent.
1.58 pm Parliament should be open to those whom it represents.
We should seek to explain its work to those who elect us
Mr Speaker: Will Members wishing to take their and to make them welcome here. The security of this
seats please come to the Table? building and those who work and visit here depends
The following Members took and subscribed the Oath, upon us all. We have a duty to be vigilant and to assist
or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law: those whose job it is to maintain this place as a safe
Jon Hedley Trickett, for Hemsworth place to work.
Stephen Charles Brine, Winchester Before moving to the first business of the new Parliament,
Adam James Harold Holloway, Gravesham I would like to express my very best wishes to all hon.
Colum Eastwood, Foyle Members, those newly elected and those returning, and
all those who work in this House.
Mr Speaker: The sitting is suspended until 2.30 pm.
The bells will ring five minutes before the sitting resumes. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On
Thanks, everybody. a point of order, Mr Speaker.
2.3 pm
Mr Speaker: Not at this stage.
Sitting suspended.

OUTLAWRIES BILL
Speaker’s Statement
A Bill for the more effectual preventing Clandestine
2.30 pm Outlawries was read the First time, and ordered to be read
Mr Speaker: Colleagues, I want to begin this Session a Second time.
by marking the terrorist attack in London on 29 November
during which Saskia Jones and Jack Merritt lost their DEPUTY SPEAKERS
lives. I am sure the whole House will join with me in Ordered,
sending our condolences to their families.
That, for the period up to the first sitting day following the
The House has directed the Speaker to make a statement election of the Deputy Speakers under Standing Order No. 2A,
at the beginning of each Session about the duties and Sir Roger Gale be Chairman of Ways and Means, Sir George
responsibilities of hon. Members. I begin by reminding Howarth be First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means and Sir
hon. Members of their duty to observe the code of Gary Streeter be Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.—
conduct agreed by the House and to behave with civility (Mr Rees-Mogg.)
and fairness in all their dealings. We all have duties to
29 19 DECEMBER 2019 Business of the House (19 and20 30
December)
Business of the House (19 and have agreed that we can sit tomorrow and that the Bill
20 December) will be published. It will be scrutinised by Her Majesty’s
Opposition so that we consider it in the best interests of
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
2.32 pm Ireland. On that basis, we support the motion.
Mr Speaker: Before calling a Minister to move the next
motion, which relates to the presentation of the European Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP):
Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill and the sitting of Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker—Mr Speaker,
the House tomorrow, I want to make a short statement. even! Sorry about that; old habits die hard. This is an
Substantive motions may be moved without notice only unusual state of affairs, and you have been generous to
with the sanction of the Chair and with the concurrence the Government in order for this debate to go ahead
of the House. I am, exceptionally, allowing this motion tomorrow. This is what the past three years have been
to be moved only for four reasons, which are unlikely to all about: ensuring that they get their disastrous, dismal
apply to other motions without notice. First, I am Brexit tomorrow. Scotland opposed it in 2016 and opposed
satisfied that there has been proper engagement through it last week, and the SNP will vote against it tomorrow.
the usual channels with other parties about the contents Question put and agreed to.
of this motion. Secondly, informal notice of the motion
has been given by means of its inclusion in the Chamber Mr Speaker: Just for the record, I did negotiate to
information note. Thirdly, it offers the House a choice ensure that we were not coming back after Friday. I
between a sitting tomorrow and a sitting on Monday if wanted the House to be in the right place, and I think
the motion were not agreed to. Fourthly, the motion that was part of my duty.
enables the House to see the contents of the Bill to be
debated earlier than would otherwise be possible.
BILL PRESENTED
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees- EUROPEAN UNION (WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT) BILL
Mogg): I beg to move,
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
That—
(1) notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 57
Secretary Stephen Barclay, supported by the Prime
and the practice of this House, at this day’s sitting a Minister of Minister, Michael Gove, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the Crown may, without notice, present the European Union Secretary Priti Patel, Secretary Robert Buckland, Secretary
(Withdrawal Agreement) Bill; and Elizabeth Truss, Secretary Julian Smith and the Attorney
(2) this House shall sit on Friday 20 December 2019. General, presented Bill to implement, and make other
provision in connection with, the agreement between
Subject to the House agreeing this motion, I shall
the United Kingdom and the EU under Article 50(2) of
make a Business statement this evening following the
the Treaty on European Union which sets out the
debate on the Queen’s Speech.
arrangements for the United Kingdom’s withdrawal
from the EU.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Welcome back,
Mr Speaker. I agree with you that this is a highly unusual Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time
motion, but I am pleased that the business managers tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 1) with explanatory
notes (Bill 1-EN).
31 19 DECEMBER 2019 Queen’s Speech 32

Queen’s Speech and effectiveness of the criminal justice process. New

sentencing laws will ensure the most serious violent offenders,
Mr Speaker: I have to acquaint the House that this including terrorists, serve longer in custody. New laws will
House has this day attended Her Majesty in the House require schools, police, councils and health authorities to
of Peers and that Her Majesty was pleased to make a work together to prevent serious crime. My Government
most gracious Speech from the Throne to both Houses will ensure those charged with knife possession face swift
of Parliament, of which I have obtained a copy for justice and that the courts work better for all those who
greater accuracy. I shall direct that the terms of the engage with them, including victims of domestic abuse.
speech be printed in the Votes and Proceedings. Copies Legislation will be brought forward to support victims of
are available in the Vote Office. crime and their families. Measures will be developed to
tackle hostile activity conducted by foreign states.
The Gracious Speech was as follows:
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons My Ministers will bring forward measures to ensure
that every part of the United Kingdom can prosper. My
My Government’s priority is to deliver the United Government will invest in the country’s public services
Kingdom’s departure from the European Union on 31 January. and infrastructure whilst keeping borrowing and debt
My Ministers will bring forward legislation to ensure the under control; maintaining the sustainability of the public
United Kingdom’s exit on that date, and to make the most finances through a responsible fiscal strategy. My Government
of the opportunities that this brings for all the people of will prioritise investment in infrastructure and world-leading
the United Kingdom. science research and skills, in order to unleash productivity
Thereafter, my Ministers will seek a future relationship and improve daily life for communities across the country.
with the European Union based on a free trade agreement It will give communities more control over how investment
that benefits the whole of the United Kingdom. They will is spent so that they can decide what is best for them.
also begin trade negotiations with other leading global To support business, my Government will increase tax
economies. credits for research and development, establish a National
The integrity and prosperity of the United Kingdom is Skills Fund, and bring forward changes to business rates.
of the utmost importance to my Government. My Ministers New laws will accelerate the delivery of gigabit capable
will work urgently to facilitate talks to restore devolved broadband. To ensure people can depend on the transport
government in Northern Ireland. network, measures will be developed to provide for minimum
My Government will embark on an ambitious programme levels of service during transport strikes.
of domestic reform that delivers on the people’s priorities. My Government will continue to take steps to meet the
For the first time, the National Health Service’s multi-year world-leading target of net zero greenhouse gas emissions
funding settlement, agreed earlier this year, will be enshrined by 2050. It will continue to lead the way in tackling global
in law. climate change, hosting the COP26 Summit in 2020. To
Steps will be taken to grow and support the National protect and improve the environment for future generations,
Health Service’s workforce and a new visa will ensure a bill will enshrine in law environmental principles and
qualified doctors, nurses and health professionals have legally-binding targets, including for air quality. It will
fast-track entry to the United Kingdom. Hospital car also ban the export of polluting plastic waste to countries
parking charges will be removed for those in greatest outside the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and
need. Development, and establish a new, world-leading independent
My Ministers will seek cross-party consensus on proposals regulator in statute.
for long term reform of social care. They will ensure that A Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission
the social care system provides everyone with the dignity will be established. Work will be taken forward to repeal
and security they deserve and that no one who needs care the Fixed-term Parliaments Act.
has to sell their home to pay for it. My Ministers will
continue work to reform the Mental Health Act. My Ministers will continue to invest in our gallant
Armed Forces. My Government will honour the Armed
A modern, fair, points-based immigration system will Forces Covenant, which will be further incorporated into
welcome skilled workers from across the world to contribute law, and the NATO commitment to spend at least two per
to the United Kingdom’s economy, communities and public cent of national income on defence. It will bring forward
services. proposals to tackle vexatious claims that undermine our
My Government will bring forward measures to support Armed Forces and will continue to seek better ways of
working families, raising the National Insurance threshold dealing with legacy issues that provide better outcomes
and increasing the National Living Wage. To ensure every for victims and survivors.
child has access to a high-quality education my Ministers
will increase levels of funding per pupil in every school. My Government will work to promote and expand the
United Kingdom’s influence in the world. An Integrated
Measures will be brought forward to encourage flexible Security, Defence and Foreign Policy Review will be
working, to introduce the entitlement to leave for unpaid undertaken to reassess the nation’s place in the world,
carers and to help people save for later life. New measures covering all aspects of international policy from defence
will be brought forward to protect tenants and to improve to diplomacy and development. My Ministers will promote
building safety. My Government will take steps to support the United Kingdom’s interests, including freedom of
home ownership, including by making homes available at speech, human rights and the rule of law. My Government
a discount for local first-time buyers. My Ministers will will work closely with international partners to help solve
develop legislation to improve internet safety for all. the most complex international security issues and to
My Government is committed to a fair justice system promote peace and security globally. It will stand firm
that keeps people safe. My Ministers will establish a against those who threaten the values of the United
Royal Commission to review and improve the efficiency Kingdom, including by developing a sanctions regime to
33 Queen’s Speech 19 DECEMBER 2019 34

[Mr Speaker] Debate on the Address

directly address human rights abuse, and working to
ensure that all girls have access to twelve years of quality [1ST DAY]
education.
Members of the House of Commons Mr Speaker: I call Tracey Crouch to move, and then
Estimates for the public services will be laid before you. Eddie Hughes to second, the Address.
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
Other measures will be laid before you.
2.37 pm
I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon
your counsels. Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I beg
to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as
follows:
Most Gracious Sovereign,
We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to
Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has
addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
Mr Speaker, despite the fact that this is quite possibly
the most terrifying thing that I have ever done, it is, of
course, a great honour to move the Address as the
re-elected and proud Member for Chatham and Aylesford.
This speech is usually a gift reserved by the Whips for
those thought to have had their best times. The Chief
Whip, a man well known for his elegance, charm and
wit, has clearly clocked that it is panto season, for
asking me to do this speech is the equivalent of shouting,
“Your career is behind you!” [HON. MEMBERS: “Oh no it
isn’t.”] I think we can do a bit better than that and,
frankly, I would feel a bit more reassured if the Prime
Minister could join in. The Chief, a man well known for
his elegance, charm and wit, has clearly clocked that it is
panto season, for asking me to do this is the equivalent
of shouting, “Your career is behind you.” [HON. MEMBERS:
“Oh no it isn’t!] [Laughter.]
Instead of “Cinderella” or “Puss in Boots”, let us
raise the literary tone and note that today is the anniversary
of “A Christmas Carol” being published in 1843. Charles
Dickens was a son of Chatham, so this old has-been
speech makes me feel like the ghost of Christmas past;
my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Eddie
Hughes) will presently play the ghost of Christmas
future; and the Prime Minister is oven ready for the role
of the ghost of Christmas present.
Scrooge would have been brilliantly played by the
former Chancellor, Philip Hammond, but he was sadly
pipped for the part by the last Speaker, who auditioned
powerfully for the role for many a bleak year. Old Marley
sits on the Front Bench opposite, chained and regretful—
and that is just about Arsenal’s recent performances.
But who is our Tiny Tim, so valiant and small, the
object of universal pity? It could be none other than the
hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim
Farron), whom we welcome back to the House; we
wonder whether he will have another go at his party’s
leadership.
I had thought of continuing the “Love Actually”
election theme by delivering my speech on bits of card,
with the parliamentary choir singing carols in the
background, but: one, we are not allowed to bring
props into the Chamber; two, I think Hugh Grant has
suffered enough; and, three, it would be simply impossible
to fit in all the names of the new Conservative intake.
35 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 36

I note that the last Kent MP to propose the Loyal with the M20, that goods come and go from the port of
Address was Bob Dunn, the long-serving Member for Dover, which, as the Foreign Secretary now knows, is a
Dartford, who started his speech by mentioning that he rather important trading point.
had been It is in that spirit of being open to the world that,
“returned as its Member in four successive general elections—at 96 years on from that election and its subsequent Humble
each election, the Conservative vote has been significantly higher Address, we have proposed legislation that, by delivering
than the time before.” on Brexit, creates new and exciting trading opportunities—
Thanks to this Prime Minister, I now know how he felt. and it starts in this House tomorrow with the European
This legislative programme outlines plans for a Bill Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. That Bill and other
authorising the construction and operation of High Brexit legislation announced this morning will unlock
Speed 2, but it was in the Queen’s Speech of November and unleash Britain’s potential. We stand ready to build
1994 that the legislation for High Speed 1 was proposed. a new relationship with our friends in the EU and
Along with the constituency of Dartford, High Speed 1 elsewhere based on free trade and co-operation. Thanks
travels through mine and many others in Kent. Bob Dunn to the legislative programme announced today, we can
spoke of its potential virtues, predicting raise our own standards in areas such as agriculture and
“the economic benefits associated with it”.—[Official Report,
of course—my personal passions—animal welfare and
16 November 1994; Vol. 250, c. 7-9.] environment.
And he was right. Thanks to that Bill, 25 years ago, The reintroduction of the Environment Bill will protect
parts of Kent have seen major regeneration thanks to a and restore our natural environment for generations to
much-reduced travel time to London, and there is still come, set ambitious, world-leading but achievable
even more potential to unlock. programmes to tackle pollution, and enable us to make
the most of our much loved landscapes. For those of us
I am privileged to be the Member for Chatham and with densely populated, polluted constituencies, whose
Aylesford, a diverse constituency with a strong naval last pockets of green space are threatened by inappropriate
history. A friend and mentor of mine, my right hon. and strategically ill thought through planning proposals,
Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale), demonstrating that those fields provide not only a haven
mentioned to me earlier this week that he is now the for wildlife but a breathing space in urban areas that
only Kent MP to have been serving while the Chatham enhances the health and wellbeing of our residents is
dockyard was still operational, but rumour has it that our last remaining hope.
he is also the only Kent MP to have been here the last
time a Thanet MP proposed the Loyal Address: in As well as other extremely important pieces of legislation,
1937—[Laughter.] Sorry, Sir Roger. I know from my campaigning throughout the election
that my constituents will warmly welcome plans to
Although the dockyard, while not within the boundary enshrine in law increased funding for the NHS, greater
of my constituency, has always been of critical significance access to GP appointments, fairer funding in education,
to the town, it ceased operation in 1984. However, its more police officers and tougher sentences for serious
regeneration has been remarkable, paying tribute to its criminals. They will also be delighted to hear of further
heritage through housing, employment and tourism. commitments to support those with poor mental health.
Another female member of the 2010 intake to have Members of this House, including me, have spoken
proposed the Loyal Address is, of course, my right hon. powerfully and personally about their own brushes with
Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny various mental health conditions. It is right that we help
Mordaunt). Like Chatham, her constituency is built to remove the stigma around mental health by talking
very firmly on the foundations of the Royal Navy and, about it, but it is actions, not words, that matter. It is
of course, she famously littered her speech with bits of paramount that we ensure that our constituents, whose
the male anatomy as a dare from her colleagues in the voice may not be as loud as our own, receive the
reserves. I thought I would seek her advice, given that I treatment they need by guaranteeing that mental health
knew I would feel sick to the core and would be shaking will be treated with the same urgency as physical health.
with fear, whereas she has served with great calmness I was proud that our manifesto included commitments
and tranquillity during tough times at the highest level. to improve the overall wellbeing of the nation. Although
She looked at me, took my hand and said, ″Tracey, measures such as investing in grassroots sport, enhancing
you’ll be fine. Just don’t cock it up.” physical education in schools and reforming the out-of-date
I note that the last Loyal Address after a December gambling legislation may not be in the legislative programme
election was proposed by a Mr Reginald Mitchell Banks outlined today, the Prime Minister should know that
from Swindon. Hansard notes that he delivered his there is wide cross-party support for such improvements
speech in court dress, a tradition I am grateful no longer beginning the laborious Whitehall process, and I hope
exists, although if Hansard wishes to note that I am that will happen soon.
wearing high-street chic, it is of course welcome to do I made my maiden speech during a debate on poverty.
so. Mr Banks spoke of the importance of trading with Part of my constituency suffers enormously from
our friends abroad, and of course the bonds of commerce deprivation, and I work alongside many organisations
and enterprise between the United Kingdom and countries to support those who find themselves unable to cope.
both near and far have only strengthened since. The Charles Dickens chronicled vividly the poverty of Victorian
famous Watling Street—a trading route used by ancient Britain and the inequalities alleviated in the ensuing
Britons, Vikings, Saxons and Romans—runs through 180 years by moderate, enlightened Governments of all
Chatham. It was on that road that famous battles were colours. Mercy and altruism must remain our mission
fought against Roman invaders, but I am delighted to in today’s one nation Conservative party. I have worked
say that things have changed, and it is on that road, now with many MPs from other parties in this House on
known as the A2, running through Aylesford, along various issues. Of course I welcome and congratulate
37 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 38

[Tracey Crouch] asylum, but that did not happen, so he was deported
back to the United Kingdom. Incredibly, while out on
my new colleagues on the Conservative Benches, but bail he continued to serve as a Labour MP. I am not
there are friends who sat on the Opposition Benches sure, but I do not think the Home Secretary, my right
whom I will miss enormously. Although we have not hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), would
covered ourselves in glory in the past few years, new allow such leniency these days. I found it amusing to
MPs will soon discover that this place is at its best when read a line on Wikipedia that said:
we work together, and that relationships and friendships “Although unhappy with the situation, the Labour Party did
will be formed over issues that need cross-party consensus not expel him.”
if progress is to be made.
That sounds like a familiar theme these days.
Chatham’s hero, Dickens, may have been a great
social reformer, but he also observed that there is nothing For those of us who are 2017 MPs, this has felt like a
in this world so irresistible as laughter and good humour. very precarious innings—like we are never more than
Perhaps that would be no bad guide for us, as we repair five weeks away from a general election. I was getting a
this House of Commons in the coming months. Let bit concerned, because my Conservative predecessor,
laughter and good humour replace recent rancour; let who is now Baron Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, managed
friendships thrive through adversity; and let us respect to serve 910 days as the MP for Walsall North. When
our differences but not let them divide us. And of Parliament was dissolved on 5 November, I had served
course, let Tottenham finish above Arsenal in the league for 881 days—[HON. MEMBERS: “Ooh!”] I thank my hon.
this year. As I finish my humble offering to Her Majesty, Friends for playing their part—so I knew I had to win
I take this opportunity to wish colleagues and all the the election to beat the baron.
hard-working House staff a very merry Christmas, a The good omen for me and for this incredible
happy Hanukkah and a peaceful holiday season. In the Conservative victory should have been apparent to me
words of Tiny Tim at the end of “A Christmas Carol”, on 27 April this year. With just a few days to go before
God bless us everyone! the local elections, I was visited by a man who was at
that time a humble Back Bencher: my right hon. Friend
2.49 pm the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris
Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): I hope you will Johnson); he was not the Prime Minister then. The
forgive me, Mr Speaker, if I look slightly bewildered to blond bombshell was unleashed on the unsuspecting
be called to address a full House of Commons Chamber: people of Bloxwich, and the result was truly magnificent
I have simply never had this experience previously. In to behold. Everybody who asked for a selfie was greeted
fact, over the previous two and a half years, I have got with a beaming smile and an occasional tussle of those
used to being called at the end of a debate to address a famous blond locks. When our tour reached its inevitable
Chamber that is almost completely empty, and then destination, the Bloxwich showman—the future Prime
being given two minutes to make a 10-minute speech. Minister—obviously pulled a pint of Thatchers Gold. I
If you like what you hear over the next few minutes, know what you are thinking, Mr Speaker: you are
Mr Speaker, I would like to think you will call me early thinking, “So what? What was the consequence of this
in debates, unlike your much-loved predecessor. For the great visit?” The consequence for me was that, in those
moment, though, I am just going to relish this amazing local elections a few days later, we won two more
opportunity to talk to all these people. council wards against the national trend and, for the
first time in 20 years, the Conservatives took outright
It is an incredible privilege to be seconding the Humble control of Walsall Council.
Address, and it is also an incredible privilege to follow
my dear and good friend, my hon. Friend Member for Perhaps that should not have been a surprise because,
Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). If I remember over the past three years, we have had a blue-collar
correctly, she won her seat in 2010 from a Labour revolution. The working people—the working class—of
Member. If my maths is right, some 50 new Conservative Britain have sent two shock results and who led both
MPs in this Chamber won their seats from Labour those campaigns? It was one man who completely
Members, right across the country from Ynys Môn to understands that, actually, what the public want—what
Ipswich—[HON. MEMBERS: “Not in Scotland.”] SNP ordinary working people want—are a Government who
Members had to ruin the flow, didn’t they? Come on will stay out of their way, but will ensure that they have
guys—you are meant to be nice. [Interruption.] You are safe streets, a good standard of education for their
meant to be nice to me. Conservative MPs won Labour children, and a great national health service when they
seats from Ynys Môn to Ipswich and from Kensington need it. We now have a Government and a Prime
to Blyth Valley. Anybody who has a political bone in Minister who understand that and will deliver. People
their body should just take a minute to remember how lent us their vote in this election. We cannot let them
they felt when that Blyth Valley result came in. down; we must not let them down; we will not let them
down.
I won my seat from a Labour Member in 2017, but
the Conservatives last won the seat in 1976, and they Mr Speaker, I think you know the answer to this
only managed to win it then because John Stonehouse, question. What is the first priority for this country?
the Labour MP, faked his own death. While on a [HON. MEMBERS: “Ah!”] Members are supposed to say,
business trip to Miami, he left a pile of clothes on the “Get Brexit done.” Anyway, get Brexit done. Indeed, in
beach, pretending that he had gone for a swim, never to an interview immediately after the election result, I
be seen again, supposedly. I tell you what: he was a think I heard the right hon. Member for Hayes and
damn fine swimmer, because five weeks later he turned Harlington (John McDonnell), the shadow Chancellor,
up 10,000 miles away in Melbourne, Australia. He was say that he now understood that the public want to get
arrested and tried to apply to a couple of countries for Brexit done, but Labour had not been listening.
39 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 40

In my constituency of Walsall North, 74% of people 3.1 pm

who voted in that referendum voted to leave, but that
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): It is the
was not the interesting thing for me during the general
tradition at the beginning of each Session of Parliament
election. When I was telephone canvassing, I spoke to
to commemorate former Members of the House who
lifelong Lib Dem voters who voted remain in the
have died. It has only been two months since the last
referendum, but who were now voting Conservative
state opening, but in that time we have sadly lost our
because they said that they were real democrats. They
great friend Frank Dobson, the former MP for Holborn
knew how important it was for this country to deliver
and St Pancras. Frank was a very, very committed
on the result of that referendum.
Health Secretary from ’97 to ’99, who began the rebuilding
Walsall North is like many of the constituencies that of our national health service after it had been so
we have just won. It is among the most deprived disgracefully run down by the Conservative Government
constituencies in the country, but now we have a Prime at that time. He was always an incredibly friendly face,
Minister who completely understands that, although and always full of anecdotes and jokes that I cannot
ability is equally distributed across the country, opportunity repeat here. He will be greatly missed by all of us on
is not. That is why we are going to transform the further these Benches and, I suspect, by many others who knew
education system by investing in a huge new rebuild him as a thoroughly decent Member of Parliament who
programme worth £1.8 billion. was very committed to his constituents and to the cause
Investment in infrastructure is also incredibly important. of good housing across the country. We have also lost
There are towns such as Willenall in my constituency David Lambie at the magnificent age of 94. David was a
where the manufacturing base has been decreased over Labour MP from 1970 to 1992, and I knew him very
recent years. I was delighted to work with the Mayor of well as a committed peace campaigner.
the West Midlands and secure the money for a new On Tuesday, the Prime Minister and I remembered
train station for Willenall, because that train station will Saskia Jones and Jack Merritt, the wonderful young
be a lifeline for that town. It will allow the people of friends who died in the appalling terror attack at
Willenhall to travel to Birmingham and to Wolverhampton Fishmongers’ Hall. It is right that we pay tribute to them
more easily for job or education opportunities. It will again today for the way in which they lost their lives and
also allow people to travel into Willenhall, so if we can the message they left behind.
continue to remediate those old industrial sites, we will
automatically free up new opportunities. I am imagining I would like to take this opportunity to welcome all
a time when we have a robotic factory in Willenhall, new Members, on both sides of the House. Being a
making goods that would otherwise be brought over Member of Parliament is a massive achievement and a
from the other side of the world, therefore also reducing massive honour. I would imagine that, in witnessing our
our carbon footprint for free. opening proceedings today, many must be thinking,
“What on earth have I taken on? The pantomime season
Mr Speaker, I know what you are thinking. You are has come very early this year.” [Interruption.] Yeah,
thinking— look behind you. [Interruption.] If I may continue, I
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Sit down! would also like to pay tribute to the former Members
who lost their seats in the general election. To serve in
Eddie Hughes: I will look at the camera to see who Parliament and then fight the election and not be returned
said that. That is not what you were thinking, Mr Speaker. is an amazingly traumatic experience, when they have
I know you. You were thinking, “What about the NHS? put such a huge amount of work into their campaign as
Is it safe in this Conservative Government’s hands?” Let well as into the work they have done here. We should all
me tell you, it certainly is in Walsall North, because think for a moment about the human side of what it is
thanks to the Health Secretary my constituency has got like to go through that experience, and the trauma they
£36 million for a new A&E department, which is going must all feel. I pay tribute to them and thank them all. I
to increase capacity and improve conditions for staff will not mention all the names, but I would just like to
and patients alike. commemorate and thank Dennis Skinner for his amazing
What about the rest of the country, though? I do not work and the presence he has been in this Parliament
know where to begin: 50,000 extra nurses; 50 million throughout all the years that he was an MP.
extra GP practice appointments a year; and 40 new I would like to congratulate the proposer of the Loyal
hospitals. And what about the future of our great Address, the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford
nation? Well, I am delighted to read that this Conservative (Tracey Crouch), who showed passion and integrity.
Government will be investing a stonking £3.2 billion a That is what she became known for since her very
year in research and development by the end of this principled resignation from the Government over their
Parliament, although I completely agree with my hon. failure to restrict fixed odds betting terminals, and I
Friend the Member for Harborough (Neil O’Brien), thank her for that. But I am afraid that that is where we
who said that we simply cannot continue to spend half part ways, for if there is anything that can drive a wedge
that money in just three cities—London, Oxford and between two people even more than a Brexit vote in this
Cambridge—but that we need to spread it throughout place, it is the north London rivalry between Spurs and
the country. Arsenal. These things may seem trivial, but, as the great
From my point of view, it certainly looks like the Bill Shankly once said:
future of the whole United Kingdom is incredibly bright “Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I
with this Conservative Government. As we look to 2020 am very disappointed with that attitude. It is…much more important
with a new-found spirit of optimism and ambition, it is than that.”
my privilege, on behalf of the great people of the Black To put it another way, to help the hon. Member, Arsenal
Country, to commend this Gracious Speech to the won 13 league titles and Tottenham two—but we take
House. our victories where we can find them. I compliment the
41 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 42

[Jeremy Corbyn] sham—19,000 of them already work for the NHS—and

his promise of 40 new hospitals turned out to be a
hon. Member particularly on the last part of her speech reconfiguration of just six. The public will remember
dealing with the natural world and the environment: it this. They will not look kindly on promises that are not
was incredibly important and very well put. kept.
I also congratulate today’s seconder of the Loyal This Government say that they will take action on
Address, the hon. Member for Walsall North (Eddie hospital car parking fees, following our lead, but whereas
Hughes), on his speech and the spirit with which he we propose to abolish those fees, apparently only some
gave it. I got a sense of the spirit of Walsall when I was people will be entitled to free parking under their plans.
in Walsall College recently—a wonderful place with It was the disastrous Health and Social Care Act 2012,
wonderful students. Conservative Members are renowned brought in by the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats
for their membership of various clubs: the Bullingdon when they were in coalition, that flung open the door to
club, the Reform club and so on. There are many of privatisation, which is the cause of so many problems in
those clubs. But I was absolutely overjoyed when researching our NHS, yet the Queen’s Speech says nothing whatsoever
the hon. Member to find that he is a member of one of about the Health and Social Care Act and the privatisation
the greatest and most prestigious clubs of them all—he that it has brought.
is a trustee of the Walsall Wood allotment charity, Not so long ago, the Prime Minister stood on the
which is a fantastic honour, I am sure everyone will steps of Downing Street and announced that he had a
agree. He will understand more than most the ecstatic plan to solve the social care crisis, so where is it? It was
pleasure that we allotment holders, including him, get not in his party’s manifesto, and all we have today are
from our allotments and the produce we get from them. empty words about bringing forward proposals. Perhaps
I hope this will provide an opportunity for a genuine, we should not be surprised—all we had in the last
bipartisan working relationship over the onions and the Queen’s Speech were empty words about bringing forward
carrots. proposals. And in the Queen’s Speech before that, what
It was just two months ago that the Prime Minister did we get from the Conservatives? Empty words about
made the Queen come here in the rain as part of a bringing forward proposals. At least they have continuity
pre-election stunt. Since then, he has made many promises on this. Cuts to adult social care are expected to reach
to many different parts of the country. He has promised almost £8 billion by the end of 2019-20, but the Government
to address problems that are the result of his own are only putting £1 billion back in. It is like taking £8
party’s actions in government and its political choice to from someone and expecting them to be grateful when
impose austerity cuts on this country. There can no you give them back £1.
longer be any doubt that austerity has caused unnecessary When it comes to young people, the Government
suffering to millions of people all across this country. seem to have given up altogether. This is yet another
The communities to whom the Prime Minister made his Queen’s Speech that is miserably weak on education,
promise will now judge him on whether he keeps them. with nothing for early years, nothing for colleges and
In this Queen’s Speech, the Government have tried to nothing for universities. The Government clearly have
mimic some of the priorities and, interestingly, much of not heard the anxious cry of parents and teachers about
the language of Labour policies, but without the substance. school funding, overcrowding and unqualified teachers.
On austerity, on investment, on regional inequality, on The funding promised for schools will still leave them
the national health service, we can see how we forced the hundreds of millions of pounds worse off in real terms
terrain to shift. They say that imitation is the sincerest than they were in 2010.
form of flattery—even if it is a very pale imitation. But I When it comes to Brexit, the election result demonstrated
fear that those who were swayed by the Prime Minister’s a strong determination from many people across our
promises will be sorely disappointed, as this Queen’s country to end the mess and paralysis of the last three
Speech shows that what the Government are actually years. We understand that people are desperate to move
proposing is woefully inadequate for the scale of the on. That does not mean that we will just accept the
problems that this country faces. Prime Minister’s reckless approach to how it is done. He
Our NHS, the country’s most precious institution, is has now deliberately resurrected the threat of no deal at
on its knees due to this Tory Government. The Government the end of next year, which would decimate industry
now talk about enshrining the funding settlement in and destroy people’s jobs. That threat is now written
law. Enough of the gimmicks—just fund it properly. I into the withdrawal agreement Bill.
do not remember the last Labour Government having The Prime Minister has shown time and again that
to pass a law to force themselves to invest in the NHS, his priority is a toxic deal with Donald Trump that will
yet they increased NHS funding by a rate of 6% per sell out our NHS and risk the safety of our food, our
year. This Government are proposing little more than environmental protections and workplace rights. We do
half that—less, in fact, than the historical average. not want our NHS given over to US corporations, and
The gap between the Government’s rhetoric on the we do not want expensive medicines with extended
NHS and the reality is enormous. Last week, for the patents. We do not want food like chlorinated chicken
first time ever, every single major accident and emergency on our dinner tables either. We know that the Prime
unit in England failed to hit its four-hour waiting time Minister’s deal will not put Brexit to bed. It will just be
target. Every major unit failed to meet the target—every the beginning of years of more drawn-out negotiations.
single one—under this Government. The number of It has been reported that the Government want to
people in England waiting for operations is the highest scrap the Department for International Development—a
since records began—4.4 million—and the number of proud achievement of Labour in government. Will the
unfilled staff vacancies has ballooned. The Prime Minister’s Prime Minister confirm that this Government will not
promise of 50,000 extra nurses was quickly revealed as a close DFID, and will he ensure that 0.7% of the UK’s
43 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 44

spending continues to be used to help end global poverty homelessness in the Queen’s Speech and why there is so
and destitution? I note the commitment to develop a little to address the housing crisis? Could it be that he
sanctions regime to directly address human rights abuses. does not want to upset the billionaire landlords who
That sounds like good news for Saudi Arabia. Should back his party? The Prime Minister has used Labour’s
the Saudi regime be worried, or will the Government idea of offering discounted homes to first-time buyers.
continue to ignore its human rights abuses and war It is okay—it is more flattery—but let us see the substance
crimes in Yemen, which have resulted in famine and of it. What reassurance can he provide that this will not
humanitarian disaster? According to the UNHCR, the go the same way as the failed starter homes programme?
refugee commission, there are almost 71 million forcibly Remember when we were promised 200,000 starter homes
displaced people around the world. Where is the in 2015? But, as yet, we have seen absolutely zero.
Government’s commitment to do anything for those The fire at Grenfell Tower exposed a housing system
desperate people fleeing war, violence and famine? that is fundamentally broken. Yet two years later—two
Around the world, Britain should stand up for human years later—319 of the 446 buildings covered in aluminium
rights and democratic rights, including the right of composite cladding have not had it removed. Imagine
workers facing exploitation and abuse, so it is very living in one of those buildings and feeling at risk. That
worrying that here at home the Conservative Government is probably not something many Members of this House
are planning an assault on workers’ rights to withdraw go through, but it is an experience that thousands of
their labour, beginning with the transport workers. No people go through every day, living with the fear of a
worker goes on strike lightly, but we will oppose any burning inferno that is their home. Will the Prime
attempt to curtail that right. We have already seen some Minister now set a hard deadline for all landlords to
of the most draconian anti-worker laws, and now the replace dangerous cladding? Will he fund the installation
Government seek to take us even further back in time— of sprinklers in high-rise social housing blocks, and
again, in breach of the conventions of the International reverse budget cuts to the fire service? We will look at
Labour Organisation. In a country where pay is too law, the findings of the Government’s royal commission on
work too insecure and bad employers too common, the criminal justice process, but any changes to sentencing
attacking the rights of the working people to stand up must be done in consultation with anti-terror experts,
for themselves is a completely wrong-headed approach. and not as a knee-jerk reaction to make political capital.
On the subject of transport, with planned transport This Queen’s Speech is notable for what is not in it. It
investment in the north less than half that in London, does nothing for students who are being lumbered with
what assurances can the Prime Minister give that the huge debts, it does nothing for older people unable to
commitments on investment in the Queen’s Speech are pay their heating bills this winter, and it does nothing to
not just another failed gimmick, as the northern powerhouse address their levels of poverty in our country. This year,
was? We should take it as a form of flattery that, on the United Nations—yes, the United Nations itself—had
investment, the words of the Queen’s Speech echo what to take our Government to task over the shocking fact
Labour has long argued—that investment is desperately that 14 million people are living in poverty in this, the
needed in every part of our country. However, the scale fifth richest country in the world. Should that not be a
of investment planned by the Government falls woefully source of shame for this Government? Should not their
short of what is required. Queen’s Speech contain something to address that?
Why is there not even a mention of universal credit, the
Speaking of falling woefully short, this Queen’s Speech cruel policy that has ruined so many lives?
contains nothing of substance to deal with the colossal
challenge of climate and environmental emergency. Net Why is there no commitment to immediately raise the
zero carbon emissions by 2050, which is the Government’s minimum wage to £10 an hour so that people no longer
target, is too late and, in any case, at the current rate of have to work their fingers to the bone yet still remain in
progress we will not reach net zero until 2099. Any poverty? These things are not in this Queen’s Speech
target date will be fanciful if action does not start now. because this Government, and that Conservative party,
What are the Prime Minister’s plans on climate for this do not stand for the people on the receiving end of their
year and for each year after that? It is clear that COP 25 policies. Despite all their promises, that is exactly what
this year was a failure. Next year, Britain has the honour this Queen’s Speech shows.
of hosting COP 26 and, frankly, I think it will be The central aim of my party, the Labour Party, is to
embarrassing for all of us to host such a vital conference stand up for working people and for every part of this
if we are not doing enough to reduce our own carbon country—for the many, not the few—and to deliver
emissions and show we have made some real progress social justice, prosperity and a society that works for all.
towards bringing forward the target date. The Government As this Government plough ahead with their programme
need to get serious and put young people’s futures of gimmicks and false promises, we will be holding
before those of the big polluters, many of whom fund them to account every step of the way. We will be
the Conservative party. campaigning inside and outside Parliament, and across
the country, for the real change that sadly this Government
This Christmas, thousands of people will be sleeping will not deliver, but that our country so desperately
rough on the streets, thanks to this Government and needs.
their housing policy. Rough sleeping has doubled on the
watch of the Conservative party in government. Everyone
who sees people huddled in doorways in the cold—in 3.22 pm
the fifth richest country on earth—knows it is morally The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): This is the moment
wrong. Shelter says that 280,000 people will be homeless to repay the trust of those who sent us here, by delivering
on Christmas day in England alone, either rough sleeping on the people’s priorities with the most radical Queen’s
or living in temporary housing or hostels, so can the Speech for a generation. If there was one resounding
Prime Minister explain why there is no mention of lesson from this election campaign, and one message
45 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 46

[The Prime Minister] “the good people of Walsall North…have had to wait 41 years to
hear a maiden speech from their Member of Parliament. You can
that I heard in every corner of these islands, it is not just only imagine how disappointed they will be”.—[Official Report,
3 July 2017; Vol. 626, c. 978.]
that the British people want their Government to get
Brexit done, although they do, it is that they want to My hon. Friend was being characteristically modest,
move politics on, and move the country on, by building but I cannot help noticing how the good people of
hospitals, renewing our schools, and modernising our Walsall North have taken drastic steps to avoid another
infrastructure, as well as making our streets safer, our maiden speech. They not only re-elected my hon. Friend,
environment cleaner, and our Union stronger. This but they quintupled his majority just to be sure. As the
Queen’s Speech, from this people’s Government, sets in right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)
motion a vast interlocking programme to unite and pointed out, you wait years for a Queen’s Speech then
level up across the whole United Kingdom, and unleash along come two in short order—something my hon.
the potential of all our people. Friend will appreciate, as one of the growing number of
This one nation Government will enshrine in law bus drivers’ children on the Conservative Benches. He was
record funding for our NHS, take back control of our elected—
borders with a wholly new immigration system, toughen Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Will the Prime
our criminal justice system with longer sentences for the Minister give way?
most dangerous offenders, double investment in basic
science research, and protect our environment with a The Prime Minister: I know the hon. Gentleman
Bill so ambitious and so vast, that there is no wants to ask about buses, but I must make progress.
environmentally friendly way of printing it off.
My hon. Friend was elected as a blue collar Conservative
This is not a programme for one year or one Parliament; from a traditionally Labour seat, a path that many have
it is a blueprint for the future of Britain. Just imagine just followed. Since then, as he pointed out quite rightly,
where this country could be in 10 years’ time, with trade he has secured funding for a new A&E department at
deals across the world creating jobs across the UK, and his local hospital and a new railway station for Willenhall.
with 40 new hospitals, great schools in every community, I know he comes from a Labour family. In fact, I think
and the biggest transformation of our infrastructure his brother is a Labour councillor. When he first declared
since the Victorian age. Imagine British scientists using himself a Conservative he felt, he said, like the black
new gene therapies to cure the hitherto incurable, and sheep of the family. All I can say is I bet that if they are
leading the dawn of a new age of electric vehicles—not watching today, they will feel nothing but pride in my
just cars, but planes—and pioneering solutions to the hon. Friend’s brilliant speech.
challenge of climate change. I do not think it vainglorious Let me also welcome to his place the right hon.
or implausible to say that a new golden age for this Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, a stickler, as
United Kingdom is now within reach. In spite of the we all know, for watching a Queen’s Speech at the right
scoffing, in spite of the negativity, in spite of the scepticism time. [Laughter.] Although I do not know what he has
that you will hear from the other side, we will work flat against coronation chicken, Mr Speaker. As our exchanges
out to deliver it. across the Dispatch Box come towards a close—alas—let
Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech was expertly proposed me say that our personal relations have always been
by a beacon of our one nation Conservatism, my hon. excellent. For all our disagreements, I have never doubted
Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey that the right hon. Gentleman’s beliefs are deeply held
Crouch). She is not only a football coach of great and his sincerity is to be admired. Certain members of
distinction who has done much to champion the female his shadow Cabinet, on the other hand, are absolutely
game, which will be a key part of this country’s bid for clear where the responsibility for the election result lies.
the 2030 World cup, but is so personally skilled at the The voters of the country have let his side down. They
game, with what has been described by her adversaries have forfeited the confidence of the Opposition and the
as a “take no prisoners” style, that according to The Daily time has come for Labour to take the only possible step:
Telegraph—if you cannot believe The Daily Telegraph, dissolve the electorate and replace it with a new one—at
Mr Speaker, what can you believe?—she was once barred least, I think that is what the right hon. Member for
from playing against men to protect their egos. She has Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) said.
even used this Dispatch Box for an impromptu game of For my own part, I feel a colossal sense of obligation
keepy-up, using it as a goalmouth in what was probably to the electorate that I and we are humbled to serve. I
one of the less shocking innovations tolerated by the say to those people who lent us their votes, however
previous Speaker. hesitantly, that this Government will now engage flat
My hon. Friend has also done pioneering work on out on a programme of change for the better. Tomorrow
tackling loneliness, improving dementia care, and, as we is the day when we finally peel back the plastic wrapping,
have heard, curbing the harms inflicted by gambling about which you have heard so much, Mr Speaker, and
and alcohol. She is so dedicated to her job that she has present our oven-ready deal. It will go into the microwave
regularly brought her son Freddie into the Lobby, so as the withdrawal agreement Bill—it works in both
reducing the voting age to about six months. Chatham’s devices, this deal—taking back control of our money,
great parliamentary sketch writer, Charles Dickens, would our borders, our laws and our trade, clearing the way
himself confirm that her speech was in the very finest for an overarching programme of national renewal.
traditions of this House. [HON. MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] Above all, it is time to invest in the institution that
My hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford gives the country its cohesion and even our national
was followed with great style by my hon. Friend the spirit—the simple and beautiful idea that whoever you
Member for Walsall North (Eddie Hughes). When he are, the NHS is there for you when you fall sick. As our
addressed this House for the first time in 2017, he said: NHS cares for us, so we will care for the NHS, delivering
47 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 48

the biggest cash boost in a generation, and, for the first We will stand by one of the greatest international
time, this Queen’s Speech guarantees a new funding symbols of British courage and daring: our armed
settlement in law. What will that pay for? The biggest forces—the men and women who sacrifice so much to
hospital-building programme in living memory, with safeguard our way of life. We will protect our protectors
40 new hospitals, 50,000 more nurses—and their from unfair and vexatious legal claims that undermine
bursaries—6,000 more GPs and 50 million more GP their morale and confidence. We will spare no effort in
appointments, and we will introduce a new NHS visa to addressing the profound concerns of millions about the
fast-track talented staff from overseas. We will scrap state of our criminal justice system with the first royal
those iniquitous hospital parking charges for all staff commission for almost 30 years, and there will be action
and vulnerable people, and we will guarantee dignity now to impose tougher sentences on the most serious
and fairness for everyone in their later years with a offenders.
long-term and sustainable solution to social care. Indeed,
I invite cross-party work on that solution, in the spirit Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab) rose—
of co-operation that I think is supported by many,
many Members on both sides of the House. The Prime Minister: If the hon. Lady wants to contest
While many of these measures were indeed foreshadowed the need for tougher sentences for serious offenders, I
in the last Queen’s Speech, fortified by our new mandate am happy to hear her view.
we will go even further. We will give millions of tenants
greater rights over their rented homes, abolishing no-fault Stephanie Peacock: The Queen’s Speech mentioned a
evictions. We will help millions of commuters whose sentencing Bill. Will that include provision for increasing
lives are made miserable by strike action by imposing the sentence for causing death by dangerous driving
minimum service agreements. from 14 years to life imprisonment? If not, are the
Government open to accepting an amendment?
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): Will
the Prime Minister give way?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes an important
The Prime Minister: I will happily give way—if the and valid point. I have no doubt that she reflects the
hon. Gentleman is opposed to helping struggling concerns of her constituents, and we will certainly be
commuters, I am delighted to hear from him. looking at what we can do to make sure that people who
are guilty of dangerous driving receive the penalties
Alan Brown: Earlier on, the Prime Minister used the they deserve. I know that the Home Secretary will have
slogan, the “people’s Parliament”, but the people of listened very carefully to what the hon. Lady has said.
Scotland rejected his Government. If he really believes We will also end the dangerous practice of early
in the people, is it not right that the people of Scotland release of terrorists, but our reforms will only stand the
should have their say in a referendum? test of time if our system of government here at Westminster
meets the challenge of a new era. The steady erosion of
The Prime Minister: I think it was Nicola Sturgeon faith in politics has poisoned our public life, so we will
herself who said that the referendum in 2014 was a establish a constitution, democracy and rights commission
“once in a generation” event. I do not know about you, to recommend proposals to restore trust in our institutions
Mr Speaker, but I feel that the Scottish Nationalist and our democracy. As a first step, we will repeal the
party should concentrate more on delivering on the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 so that never again
domestic priorities of the people of Scotland and rather can we have the ludicrous spectacle of an Opposition
less on breaking up our United Kingdom. party trying to defy the will of a majority of the House
and running away from a general election. We will do
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): everything in our power to restore devolved government
Will the Prime Minister give way? in Stormont so that Northern Ireland is once again
ruled by its own elected representatives.
The Prime Minister: I believe that if I gave way to the
hon. Gentleman, I would be forced to repeat the point I Ian Paisley: Of course, we all look forward to devolved
have just made. government being re-established in Northern Ireland
We will abolish the threat of no-fault evictions, and fairly and equitably for all. Will the Prime Minister
we will take forward our plans to rejuvenate and, in make good on his commitment for a golden age for all
many cases, to revolutionise the infrastructure of Britain, of the United Kingdom by making good on his promises
including Northern Powerhouse Rail. We will remedy for bus building and infrastructure in Northern Ireland
the scandal that Leeds is the largest city in western so that we can all enjoy that golden age, and will he
Europe without light rail or a metro. We are dramatically build a Boris bridge, not just the Boris bus?
improving local bus services, levelling up across the
country to the standards set in London—at least, as they The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman,
were set under a previous Mayor—and we are investing and he can certainly be assured of my commitment to
nearly £30 billion in our road network, including upgrading ensuring that the beautiful buses continue to be built in
the A66 to be the first continuous dual carriageway Ballymena. I will do everything we can to ensure that
across the Pennines since the 1970s. that continues to be the case. As for his desire for a
Above all, this one nation Government will strengthen bridge to connect the two biggest isles of the British
our United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Isles, all I can say is that it is a very interesting idea. I
Northern Ireland—the most successful Union in history advise him to watch this space and, indeed, to watch the
and a sacred inheritance that this Parliament will never space between the islands, because what he has said has
allow anyone to rip up or rend asunder. not fallen on deaf ears.
49 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 50

[The Prime Minister] It is for the Prime Minister to explain to the people of
Scotland why he is denying Scotland the right to choose
When it comes to standing by our friends, whether in our own future. Why did democracy stop, in the Prime
Northern Ireland or elsewhere, one innovation that this Minister’s world, with the independence referendum in
Queen’s Speech introduces is that we will stop public 2014? And may I say to the Prime Minister that it is not
bodies taking it upon themselves to boycott goods from a good look to be playing with his phone rather than
other countries and to develop their own pseudo-foreign listening to the legitimate demands of the Scottish
policy against countries that, with nauseating frequency, National party? [Interruption.] The Prime Minister says,
turn out to be Israel. “Say something more interesting.” Well, Prime Minister,
this is about democracy. This is about the Scottish
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Will National party, which stood in the election on a manifesto
the Prime Minister give way? about Scotland’s right to choose, and it is about the
Conservatives, who said no to indyref2—and what
The Prime Minister: No. happened? Well, the Conservatives lost more than half
The scale of our programme is matched only by the their Members of Parliament.
sense of responsibility that now falls on all of us who Prime Minister, you got your answer from the people
have been elected. Again, I congratulate all new Members, of Scotland. The SNP got 45% of the vote, a 20 percentage
and a huge responsibility now falls on all of us to point difference from the Government. We got 80% of
redeem and repay the trust of the British people. I say to the Members of Parliament who sit on these Benches.
the people of this country that we owe you, we know it Some time, some day, the Prime Minister is going to
and we will deliver. We have now the energy, the ideas, have to respect democracy. The Prime Minister cannot
the mandate and the people and we will spare no effort and will not continue to say no.
in fulfilling that mandate. As we engage full tilt now in
this mission of change, I am filled with invincible confidence Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
in the ability of this nation, our United Kingdom of (SNP): The Prime Minister says that looking at his
Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to renew itself in phone is more interesting than hearing what Scotland
this generation as we have done so many times in the needs. Does that not tell us everything about this Prime
past. After the dither, after the delay, after the deadlock Minister and his view of Scotland?
and after the paralysis and the platitudes, the time has
come for change and the time has come for action, and Ian Blackford: Indeed it does. There is not much that
it is action that the British people will get from this can be added to that, because the image of the Prime
Gracious Speech, this most Gracious Speech. I commend Minister playing with his phone and not listening to the
it to the House. Scottish National party says it all.
The people of Scotland did not vote for this Prime
3.40 pm Minister. Scotland did not vote for this Conservative
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): I Government, and we certainly did not vote for the con
hope—[Interruption.] of a Tory plan that has been set out today.
In December 1967, my old friend Winnie Ewing
Mr Speaker: Order. Will those who are leaving now proclaimed that
leave quietly? We will try again. “the march of time can bring anomalies between elections, so that
sometimes a Government may have a majority in this House but
Ian Blackford: Thank you, Mr Speaker. be in a minority in the country.”—[Official Report, 6 December 1967;
There was absolutely nothing for the people of Scotland Vol. 755, c. 1551.]
in that address from the Prime Minister, and I hope In Scotland, that is certainly the case. Here in this place,
that, for those who were watching and listening back we face a Tory Government we have rejected, implementing
home, it was preceded by an announcement that it was a manifesto that Scotland rejected. For too many years,
not for viewers and listeners in Scotland. Scotland has been held back by successive Tory
I congratulate the hon. Members for Chatham and Governments we did not vote for.
Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) and for Walsall North (Eddie Scottish National party MPs have today set out an
Hughes) on their addresses. I listened to all the stories alternative Queen’s Speech to deliver for the people of
about “A Christmas Carol”, but we did not hear which Scotland. With a renewed and strengthened mandate,
Conservative Front Bencher would be playing Scrooge. our expanded SNP team will focus on our priorities—on
The hon. Member for Walsall North is a great football Scotland’s priorities: stopping Brexit and protecting
fan, and I thought that he would perhaps mention Scotland’s NHS from any grubby Trump trade deal;
Aston Villa. They are not having the best of times, but I dealing with the climate emergency; and, once and for
hope that he is enjoying watching John McGinn, whom all, putting an end to Tory austerity. Instead, the
we gifted to him from Hibernian last year. Government’s Queen’s Speech sets out another Tory
This morning, Scotland’s First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, programme that the people of Scotland rejected. Despite
wrote to the Prime Minister demanding the transfer to the fact that Scotland voted to remain a member of the
the Scottish Government of legal powers to hold a European Union, we now face being dragged out against
second independence referendum under section 30 of our will.
the Scotland Act 1998. As the First Minister outlined, We often hear about losers’ consent, but the fact is
there has been a material change in the circumstances that Scotland voted to stay in the EU to maintain our
since the independence referendum of 2014, based on rights as EU citizens. This Conservative Government
the prospect of Scotland‘s leaving the European Union do not have the consent of the people of Scotland, the
against its will. Scottish Parliament or our Government to take Scotland
51 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 52

out of the EU. We ask that the solemn right, claimed by We demand a right to have a referendum. The Scottish
the people of Scotland, to determine the form of Government and the Scottish Parliament have a strong
government best suited to our needs be exercised. This record for bettering the lives of citizens across Scotland,
House accepted that claim of right as a principle, on a and we know that with more powers and with independence,
motion that I moved in July 2018. It is the Scottish we can and will do so much more.
people who are sovereign. Today, the Scottish National party has published our
In that context, it is right for the House to respect our alternative Queen’s Speech. The people of Scotland
Scottish Parliament and last week’s election result. But voted to lock the Prime Minister out of Downing Street
of course, in the last Parliament, the Tories ignored our and escape Brexit. Scotland voted to choose a better
interests and sidelined the will of the Scottish Government, future, and our plan is to deliver that better future. We
intent on bringing forward a deal that will destroy our want to see a national health service protection Bill to
economy and risk jobs and livelihoods. As the former stop the NHS across the UK being at risk from a US
EU permanent representative to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers, trade deal. It would guarantee that trade deals would
said, that pledge will create not undermine the founding principles of the NHS that
“the biggest crisis of Brexit to date” we cherish so much. We will continue to make the case
in late 2020. He said that “get Brexit done” was and work to ensure that Scotland’s voice is heard. Our
nation has the right to choose its future. We will also
“diplomatic amateurism, dressed up domestically as boldness and
decisiveness.”
deliver in Scotland a Bill to increase parental leave with
an additional 12 weeks to be ring-fenced for the father
From selling off our NHS to selling out Scotland’s in order to encourage take-up, as well as to increase
fishing communities, the Prime Minister will inflict statutory maternity and paternity pay.
hardship on our communities as the cost of delivering
his damaging Brexit. The SNP new green deal will build on the transition
towards a greener, sustainable future. We will continue
The voices of the people of Scotland are being to press the UK Government to match Scotland’s net
silenced—80% of their representatives in this House are zero emissions target by 2045, putting oil and gas
not listened to by a Tory Government showing contempt. receipts into a net zero fund focused on measures to
That is why we stand up for Scotland and against cruel, battle climate change and putting tackling the climate
punishing policies and narrow, backward-gazing politics. emergency front and centre of our priorities. That is
Instead, we are determined that Scotland’s right to what a responsible Government do.
choose our own future will be delivered, not simply
because we in the SNP want that, but because the Unlike the Conservatives, our ambition is to end
people of Scotland demand it. We stood on a mandate poverty, not to increase it by a failure to act or to show
to give Scotland the right to choose its own future. I put leadership. Poverty is not inevitable. To fight it, we will
the Prime Minister on notice that SNP Members will work to end the disgraceful two-child cap on tax credits
never stop fighting this Government for that case and and the associated rape clause. We call on the United
for our mandate—for a fresh independence referendum—to Kingdom Government immediately to end the benefits
be respected. freeze and to halt the roll-out of universal credit. We
will use every device open to us in this place to make the
case that we cannot allow our citizens to be dragged
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
into debt, hardship and despair by this nasty, careless
(Con) rose—
Tory Government. We want to bring forward an equal
living wage Bill, meaning an increase in the living wage
Ian Blackford: I see the hon. Gentleman seeking to to at least the level of the real living wage and an end to
intervene. Will he accept democracy and Scotland’s age discrimination.
right to choose?
The Scottish National party MPs reject the wholly
Andrew Bowie: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for immoral replacement of nuclear weapons at a cost of
giving way. Will he accept democracy and that last over £200 billion, and we call on other parties to follow
week, 55% of Scottish voters voted for parties that want us, to say no to Trident and to remove those weapons of
to remain in the United Kingdom? There is no mandate mass destruction from the Clyde.
for a second independence referendum in Scotland. The We want to help our pensioners by ensuring that the
Scottish people are not calling for a second independence BBC licence fee remains free for those aged over 75. We
referendum. They want us to get on with the day job. will not abandon those women born in the 1950s, and,
Fix your own backyard before coming in here, demanding just as we have done in previous Parliaments, we will
a referendum on Scottish independence. [Interruption.] demand that this Government deliver justice for the
3.8 million women born in the 1950s who are being
Ian Blackford: Well, as my hon. Friend the Member denied their pension by this Conservative UK Government.
for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald) says, We will be pressing for an NHS funding boost from the
“What absolute tosh!” The hon. Member for West UK Government that matches the current Scottish level
Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) cannot and for constitutional change in abolishing the House
get away from the fact that we won the election. We are of Lords and extending the franchise to include 16 and
here standing up as a voice for Scotland, and he lost 17-year-olds.
most of his colleagues. They were rejected at the ballot This expanded SNP group is determined, and we are
box; they have been reduced to rump. The fact of the ready for the challenge. The Government think they can
matter is that we on our side have 80% of the seats. The do what they want with Scotland and get away with it.
Government can only wish that they had such a mandate That will not happen on our watch. The Tories are
and such a majority in the rest of the UK. The reality is risking our economy and reducing opportunities for
that no democrat can deny that we won the election. citizens.
53 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 54

[Ian Blackford] Prime Minister on leading our party to an overwhelming

victory. One thing now is certain: the Lobby is going to
The choice is clear: an outward-looking country with be rather crowded. It will also be a rather welcome
a vision of tolerance, inclusiveness and prosperity for change to see all Conservative MPs going through the
all, or the offering of the Union run by a Tory party same Lobby. [Laughter.]
that does not care about Scotland. The Tory programme I hope my right hon. Friend will forgive me if I just
for government will push child poverty to a 60-year reflect that this was the result that was supposed to
high and devastate our economy. The hardest of Tory happen in 2017. Of course, back then, people still
Brexits risks up to 800,000 jobs in Scotland. The Tory thought the Labour party supported Brexit. Two years
manifesto means that day-to-day spending on public on, they saw that that was a sham, a pretence and a
services outside health will still be almost 15% lower in betrayal of millions of traditional Labour voters, and
real terms in 2023-24 than it was at the start of the those voters have now elected Conservative Members of
2010s. Austerity has hit communities hard, and it is not Parliament. This victory brings with it a huge responsibility,
going away—more of the same from the Tories. Despite because they have put their trust in us and, as my right
the climate emergency, there is nothing in the Queen’s hon. Friend has said, we must work flat out to repay
Speech to make real progress on reducing emissions. that trust—not just Ministers, but every single one of
The UK Government have already failed to match the us. Of course, that means delivering Brexit. It means
Scottish Government’s 2045 net zero emissions target. delivering our manifesto commitments on schools, the
That is just the start of it. NHS and infrastructure, which is why the legislation
Yes, the Conservatives can say that England and and the commitments in the Queen’s Speech are so
Wales have had their say, but what about Scotland? We important. But it means more than that. It means building
had our say, and Scotland rejected this Prime Minister a country that truly works for everyone. That has always
and rejected the Tories. Those of us who represent the been the ambition of the Conservative party, because
people and the will of Scotland will use every avenue we are a party that is at its strongest when we appeal
open to us to protect our people against this Government across the board to people regardless of age, gender,
and their shoddy plan. ethnicity, sexuality, background, income or where they
Before I close, I want to appeal to Members across live. That is the true Conservative party.
the House. In the previous Parliament, Members conducted We must deliver on Brexit and on our manifesto
themselves in less than acceptable ways on occasion. commitments, but we must go further. We must ensure
People across these islands have recognised that, and that, in every decision we take in this House, we remember
they are fed up with it. Let us start this Parliament with those communities that have lent us their vote. That
respect and let the strength of our arguments win the means things like taking forward the modern industrial
case, rather than drag this place into the gutter. strategy, ensuring prosperity across the whole country,
Finally, in setting out the SNP’s clear opposition to and I welcome the commitment in the Queen’s Speech
the Government’s Queen’s Speech and offering our to spend on science and on research and development.
alternative, I have set out to the people of Scotland the It also means remembering those communities when
tale of two Governments, of two parties, of two futures. we negotiate trade deals around the world, including
I started with the words of Winnie Ewing, and I want to with the European Union, because good trade deals
begin closing with the words of another parliamentarian. will protect the jobs of those who have put their faith
Let me remind the House of the words of Charles in us and, more than that, will bring good, new, better
Stewart Parnell, who said that jobs to the UK. It is interesting to note that we have not
“no man has the right to fix the boundary of a nation. No man yet had a reference in this debate to the fact that, under
has the right to say to his country, ‘Thus far shalt thou go and no a Conservative Government, yet again, we have seen
further’”.
employment go up.
Now Scotland must have the chance to choose its own
future: one shackled to the Brexit destruction imposed
by Westminster, or one with hope, opportunity and Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Will the
ambition and with an independent Scotland in the right hon. Lady give way?
European Union.
Mrs May: No.
Mr Speaker: I call former Prime Minister Theresa May. Good trade deals will protect the rights of workers
and of those who have put their trust in us. I welcome
3.57 pm the commitment in the Queen’s Speech to an employment
Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): Mr Speaker, Bill, which I trust will not only enshrine but enhance
may I first take this opportunity to congratulate you on workers’ rights in this country. Good trade deals will
your election as Speaker? I know that, in residing in that also ensure that we maintain this country’s high standards
Chair, you will uphold the best traditions of the Speaker in areas like the environment. The environment Bill will
of the House of Commons. I also want to thank you for be a very important piece of legislation.
the work that you have done, and I know you will We need to deliver on all those issues, particularly for
continue to do, in showing concern for the health and communities that have lent us their vote, because these
well-being, including the mental health, of Members of are the communities that feel most left behind by
this House and staff across Parliament. Thank you for globalisation. These are the communities that, all too
all that you have done here. often, have borne the brunt when rights and standards
I have been in this House for over 22 years, and this is have not been protected. We have a very real job to do in
the largest number of Conservative Members of Parliament delivering for those people who have put their trust
that I have seen. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the in us.
55 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 56

Of course, as we deliver Brexit and look ahead to the who want to ignore the ties of family, of history, of shared
end of next year, we have to deliver a trade deal with the endeavour, of shared purpose, that we have formed
European Union by the end of December 2020. There together over the years. My view is simple: breaking up
are those who say it cannot be done, but I do not believe the United Kingdom is to the benefit of no one and the
that. I have every confidence that it can be done, but we detriment of all. I am grateful to him for the reference
must do more than that because, by the end of December in the Queen’s Speech to the importance the Government
2020, we have to agree and ratify a new treaty on attach to the integrity of the United Kingdom, and I
security with the European Union such that it will come look forward to the work that I know the Government
into operation on 1 January 2021. Again, I have every will do to ensure that that is demonstrated.
confidence it can be done, because significant work has
already been put into these issues. Elements of that Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): The former
were agreed with the EU in the political declaration. Prime Minister has spent a lot of her speech talking
There is work to be done, but it can be done and it must about the debt that her party and her successor owe to
be done to that timetable. those who lent her party their support, but she will
There is another matter that people across the UK know better than anyone that a true leader, a true
will look to us to deliver on: the social injustices that statesman, acknowledges those who did not vote for
still persist. I welcome the reference in the Queen’s them. In Scotland, the Scottish National party secured
Speech to the domestic abuse Bill, and I am grateful to 45% of the vote. Nobody denies the current Prime
the Prime Minister for the speed with which he responded Minister’s right to govern on 43% of the vote, so how
to me when I pressed him on this matter earlier this week. can she turn round to the people of Scotland and say
that we cannot have our say on our own future, after the
The Prime Minister: I responded instantly. general election results that we just had in Scotland?

Mrs May: Indeed. That Bill has cross-party support Mrs May: As the hon. Gentleman will have heard from
and it will genuinely improve the lives of victims and my excellent hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire
survivors of domestic abuse. and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), 55% of people in
I also welcome the reference to reforming the Mental Scotland voted for parties that support the Union of the
Health Act, although, yet again, I am bound to say that United Kingdom. At the end of his speech, the right
I would have preferred a more full-blooded commitment hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford)
to a new Mental Health Act. The review of the current made a great plea about how an independent Scotland
Mental Health Act raised many issues about how we would be in the European Union. We all know that an
deal with and treat people with mental health problems. independent Scotland will not be in the European Union—it
It is not just about resources; it is also about the attitude will not be allowed to be in the European Union. So
and the way in which people are treated. If we put those what the Scottish nationalists are saying to people in
changes into place in a new Mental Health Act, we will Scotland is simply not true.
bring genuine and significant improvements to people The Queen’s Speech refers to the UK’s place and
in this country who have mental health problems. influence in the world. I note that there is to be a full
There are other social injustices we need to look at. review of international policy, no doubt building on a
Often, social injustice is underpinned by a feeling among number of reviews that have taken place and work done
the powerful that there are others in our society whom in recent years. It is important that we look at this issue
they can treat as second-class citizens. One of the worst now. Of course, global Britain has never gone away; we
examples and what really brought that home to me was have always been a global Britain. In recent years, we
the way in which the young girls and boys being sexually have continued to play an important role in international
abused and groomed in Rotherham were treated by the fora on matters such as climate change; we have played
authorities in that place. It was as if they were people a key role in dealing with terrorism, modern slavery and
who did not count. But they did count, and we must people smuggling; and we have enhanced our presence
always remember that every member of our society, in key areas east of Suez and in the Asia-Pacific region.
every resident of the UK, counts. It is that spirit of We brought together action across the world when we
ensuring equality that lay behind the work done on found that a chemical weapon had been used on the
social housing, and I note the commitment the Government streets of the UK by Russia.
have made to produce a social housing White Paper. It At the same time, we have seen the international fora
is important that we continue that work to ensure that and the rules-based international order on which we
the voice of those in social housing is heard. have depended for decades coming under significant
Another injustice we need to tackle was highlighted threat. At the same time as we have seen the atmosphere
by the race disparity audit—groundbreaking work by a and discourse of politics in the UK become more
Conservative Government that shone a light on injustice acrimonious. Across the world we have seen a change,
that too many experience and too few are willing to too. We have seen an emphasis on absolutism and
acknowledge. We cannot address all the issues raised confrontation rather than compromise. We have a decision
and all the findings immediately, but we must ensure to take as to where we sit in that: whether we side with
that the Government do not abandon the work on the the absolutists or continue to be a country that believes
race disparity audit. If we take action across the board, it is right that big countries come together internationally
we will truly be creating one nation. and restrain their own demands in order to seek agreement
Speaking of one nation, my right hon. Friend the for the greater good of all.
Prime Minister has, on a number of occasions, expressed We have also seen from some an interest in stepping
his desire to unite the country. Of course, that will not back from a defence of democracy, human rights and
happen if the United Kingdom is torn asunder by those the rule of law. We have to decide whether to look
57 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 58

[Mrs May] my constituency—even in Shoreditch—where we have

the best tech businesses beating like a heartbeat for
inward or to continue to play a role in defending those Britain, we have too poor a broadband service. I will
values; I believe we should, because that is what global join the Government in supporting investment in broadband
Britain is all about. It is important that we continue to if they will deliver in my constituency and across the
uphold those values around the world. Of course, that country.
may bring into the spotlight our relationship with the I cannot stand here today without highlighting the
United States of America. It is a special relationship real challenges for the people of Hackney South and
that we must nurture and preserve. It is in the interests Shoreditch. As the former Prime Minister said, everybody
not only of us and the United States but of the world counts. In my constituency, that includes half of our
that that special relationship is maintained. But it is not children who live in poverty after housing costs are
a one-way relationship. We do not just accept every taken into account. In my constituency, or across Hackney,
position that the US takes; we consider our own interests 30% of deaths are still premature, and the leading cause
and, when we disagree with the US, we tell them clearly of that is cancer, so investment in our health service for
that we disagree with them. early diagnosis and treatment is absolutely vital. One
Over the past three years, we have seen this House fifth of adults, which is above average, still smoke in my
focusing so much on Brexit and on so much internally, constituency, compared with around 14% of the London
but we now have an opportunity: we can set that to one population.
side and move on to being the global Britain that the With a ratio of nearly one in 10, Hackney has the
Prime Minister has spoken about and that every highest rate of diagnosed depression of any London
Conservative Member on the Government Benches borough. I would welcome a review of mental health
espouses. We can be a Britain that takes its place in the support, but, as the former Prime Minister said, I think
world; a Britain that recognises the need to reform the that we may need to be more radical than that, so I will
international rules-based order, playing not just a role be watching what happens closely. Hackney as a borough
but a leading role in that reform; and a United Kingdom is the 11th most deprived of the 326 English local
that stands up for the values that we share—the values authorities. Although some people talk about our being
of democracy, the rule of law and human rights. A achingly cool—they think of the hipsters with their
United Kingdom standing proud in the world. I believe beers and of our bread makers and our beer makers and
the world needs the United Kingdom to take that role. I so on—a very high percentage of my constituents are in
know that, under my right hon. Friend, we will do just great need, with more than a third living in financial
that. poverty, earning 60% of median earnings after housing
costs are taken into account.
4.12 pm I wanted this Queen’s Speech to say a lot more about
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ housing. In my borough, it takes 17 times a person’s
Co-op): It is a pleasure to welcome you back to the salary to buy a home. That compares with the London
Chair of the House, Mr Speaker, and it is a pleasure to average of 13.8 times, which is pretty high, and the
follow the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), England and Wales average of eight times the amount,
because despite our political disagreements she and I which is also high. It means that home ownership is out
agree on what she said about everybody counting and of the reach of so very many. In my constituency, there
the Government’s being there for everybody. I thank the are more private renters than homeowners. Half of all
people of Hackney South and Shoreditch who re-elected households are represented in social housing, which is
me for the fifth time to stand up for them all—not just more than the other two combined.
for the 73% of them who voted for me, but for the A real stain on one of the richest countries in Europe
others who did not. I will stop at nothing to stand up and in the world is the fact that more than 3,000 families
for them in this House. are living in temporary accommodation. Just in the past
The Queen’s Speech is quite incredible. It talks about few weeks, a man wrote to me begging for help because
investment in education, the NHS and public services, for two and a half years he has lived with his eight-year-old
but this Government have slashed spending over the son in one room in a hostel. We have a fantastic Labour
past nine and a half years. The promise of more funding elected mayor in Hackney, who is doing his utmost to
for schools comes now, but only after nine years of resolve this housing crisis, which is costly to the individuals
funding cuts that have led to an 8% per pupil funding concerned, costly to our communities and costly to the
decrease over the past decade. The Government talk taxpayer. Without more from this Government, it will
about more police, but who was it who cut their numbers be difficult—if not impossible—to deliver for those
in the first place? The Prime Minister has been keen to 3,000 families who need help, and for those children
talk about the past as though it were a different country; who will be living without a permanent roof over their
were he in his place, I would remind him that he has heads and who will be celebrating Christmas in one
been not just the Prime Minister for a few hundred days room in a hostel or in short-term, inadequate temporary
but an MP and the Mayor of London. He cannot dodge accommodation.
responsibility. I would not want to suggest that this poverty is also a
I will of course welcome things in the Queen’s Speech poverty of ambition, because boy, do my constituents
that will deliver for the people of my constituency. It want to get on in life. None the less, without those basic
feels a bit bitter to hear talk about investment in broadband building blocks of primarily secure long-term, affordable
from the same Government who rigged the most recent housing, and swift and easy access to proper healthcare,
broadband competition, particularly for rural broadband, to secure and properly paid jobs and to skills development,
so that only one bidder could win, but it is important they will never get there. Some in my constituency earn
that we invest in infrastructure in our country. Even in enough money to work a four-day week, but many,
59 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 60

many more work three or four jobs on poverty wages on recently, the council established a publicly owned clean
zero-hours contracts just to pay the rent. There is also energy company that will maximise all council-owned
the invidious bedroom tax policy, which does not work. roof space to generate renewable electricity. The council
On one estate, the Wenlock Barn estate in Hoxton, is also decarbonising its vehicles and tackling many
74 families are hit by this policy and they do not have an other issues. I do not have time to go into everything
option to move to a different property. It is a cloud today, but it is setting an example to show what can be
cuckoo policy, and if the Prime Minister is anywhere done. If one London borough can do this, what could a
near honest about his desire to be a one nation Conservative, Government do if they set their mind to it? This
it is one that he would abolish right now. Government really need to step up. Of course, we await
All Governments should be creating a ladder of reshuffles, but I invite the relevant Minister to come and
opportunity for the people of this country. This see what my borough is doing; we can show them how
Government, or the Governments before them, have we are leading the way.
ripped away the lower rungs of that ladder, so it is a The Queen’s Speech also touched on “swift justice”
very long reach for too many of my constituents. I want for knife possession. There is a scourge of knife possession
to see some commitment from this Government that among our young people in particular, and too many
they will help my constituents. people in my borough are fearful of walking their own
Let me move on the specifics of the Queen’s Speech. streets because of the impact of knife crime. Only
Her Majesty talked about the Government continuing during this election campaign, another young man’s life
to “lead the way” in tackling climate change. It has been was lost and another family are bereaved. I am angry
my great sorrow, in one of my responsibilities as the and disturbed for the families I visit who have lost loved
former Chair of the Public Accounts Committee—a ones and whose lives have been devastated as a result of
role I hope to resume in this Parliament—to have pored knife crime. However, I urge the Government to tread
over the detail of the Government’s policy on climate carefully. Yes, knife crime is a scourge, but if we simply
change. And what do we see? There was carbon capture say that we will criminalise more the people who carry
and storage: three expensive competitions, wasting millions knives, people will choose to carry other sharp weapons.
of pounds achieving absolutely nothing. There was the We will need to look closely at the detail of that legislation
much vaunted green deal, with the noble aim of greening to ensure that it achieves what it sets out to—not just a
our homes, because, let’s face it, more domestic emissions headline.
come from housing than from aviation. But that scheme The Queen’s Speech included new rules requiring
was scrapped as a total failure—predictably—and cost councils, police, schools and housing associations to
the taxpayer the equivalent of £17,000 per loan granted. work together. Of course, the Labour Mayor of London
set up the violence reduction unit to do just that, and
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The hon. my constituency has the Hackney Integrated Gangs
Member is making a powerful speech. She will know Unit. Once again, I genuinely and openly offer the
that the Committee on Climate Change wrote to the Government the opportunity to come and see what we
Prime Minister yesterday to say that action on climate are doing locally in Hackney. We do not have all the
change is falling short. Does she agree that that will answers, but we are tackling this issue—unfortunately,
continue to be the case for as long as this Government from bitter experience of the impact on our community.
do not commit to leaving fossil fuels in the ground, and It rather surprised me to hear Her Majesty talk about
that that means ending mass road building, mass aviation setting up a royal commission on justice. I do not think
expansion and the mass subsidies to the fossil fuel this is really necessary. I could refer the Government to
industry? a slew of Public Accounts Committee reports and concerns
raised on probation, where we have seen a failure of the
Meg Hillier: I thank the hon. Lady for her point, modernisation of the system and an attempt to reverse
which I am sure she will be making more firmly later. those changes; on prisons, where we have seen a slashing
We have to look at this issue in the long term. Let us of prison officer numbers and huge issues there; on
be clear: Governments of different colours did not deal chaos in courts and tribunals; and on a huge IT project
with it early enough or properly, but we now need to that is behind schedule. The problem is that several
tackle it, and a Government with a majority of 80 have Secretaries of State for Justice were throwing everything
every opportunity to be bold and ambitious in this in the air wanting to change everything overnight, and
direction. But they privatised the green investment bank, that is a recipe for chaos. We need to go back to the
which became the Green Investment Group and now does basics—to stability. We must not have stop-start and
not even need to deliver on any of its green principles. reversal; we must make sure that there is proper investment
There are very few guarantees about where that money in our criminal justice system. A royal commission worries
will go. Had the green investment bank remained in me. It kicks the can down the road as there is a danger
public hands, we would have had a huge opportunity to that we will never actually deliver. A royal commission
invest in emerging green industries to create jobs and can take a couple of years and then the Government
opportunities as well as tackle climate change issues. have to consider it. We do not have that time to wait.
But that was another squandered opportunity. Actually, it is much simpler than that. I hope the
In order to compare this situation with what Labour Government will look at those bits of our work and make
in power can do, I turn to my own borough—the sure that they take those points on board.
Labour-run Borough of Hackney—which has set bold I am interested in the national skills fund. I hope—maybe
targets to tackle climate change, and is achieving those too much—that this might mean investment for people
targets. Already, half the electricity for the council and in low-paid work who want to improve their skills, as
local schools is generated from renewable sources, and the Labour manifesto proposed. I hope that it will end
that will rise to 100% by April next year. Only very the barrier to skills and training in further education
61 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 62

[Meg Hillier] The recent election and the conversations that I was
able to conduct even more intensively than usual with
that is the loan system. Many of my constituents who the electors of Wokingham told me that they do want
are women returning to work, had been in low-paid some changes. I made promises to them that I would
jobs and had children do not want to take the risk of a come here again as an advocate for more money for our
loan in order to possibly get a better-paid job. They local schools, which have been short-changed in recent
cannot afford that, they do not have the credit record years, so it is a pleasure to see in the Gracious Speech
for it, and they are very nervous about it. If the national the down payments promised for next year, and I look
skills fund supports them, then fantastic. If it also forward to those continuing in the years that follow.
makes sure that our young people are training in the My electors and I agreed that we need more money
tech skills—the global skills—that many of my tech for our local surgeries, more nurses and doctors to be
businesses in Shoreditch find hard to get in the UK, recruited and better support for our local district general
then great. As I said at the very beginning, if there is hospital in Reading. Again, I see that answer already in
something that the Government are doing that will help the Gracious Speech, with a promise of substantial new
my constituents, I will work with them on that, but I resources—financial and personnel—for the national
wait to see the detail. health service, which will be laid out in legislation for a
On immigration, I am sadly an expert in the failings five-year period. I welcome that. It is a pleasure to say
of the Home Office in this area, as one of its top six to my electors that two parts of the job seem to be well
customers among the 650 Members of this House in on the way to being done, but having a little experience
representing constituents’ concerns. I represent the world of government, I know that there will remain, day by
in one borough. People from across the world come to day and month by month, issues to sort out, to ensure
my surgery telling me their problems with immigration. that my constituency gets its fair share of the money.
We have 40,000 European citizens in Hackney, as well
as many Commonwealth citizens. The hostile environment Liz Saville Roberts: In his capacity as a former Secretary
is a reality in my borough. When leave to remain was of State for Wales, does the right hon. Gentleman share
reduced from five years to three years, guess what—that my concern and disappointment that there was no
meant that constituents had to pay two fees before they mention of Wales whatsoever in the Queen’s Speech, as
could apply for their citizenship. Then, in a very mean- well as my concern about how the money being promised
spirited way, it was reduced to two years, so they have to to England will find its way to Wales, through the
pay three times the fees before they can qualify for Barnett formula or wherever? Finally, will he perhaps
citizenship. Many of my constituents really struggle ask the same question as me: how much longer do we
with those costs. Of course, I want a fair system, a clear need the Wales Office for? Looking at the behaviour of
system and a faster system, but we should not be this place, there will be people outside saying, “Surely
putting up barriers to people who have demonstrably Wales could do a bit better than this.”
shown that they have a legitimate right to be here and
are being pushed through a bureaucratic process that
John Redwood: The right hon. Lady knows full well
delays their eventual proper opportunity to fulfil work
that there is a formula and consequentials from the
and family hopes and to contribute to our communities
English settlement. I am quite sure that my right hon.
and our economy.
Friends in the Government will look after Wales, and it
The Government have talked about investment and is her job to test them out in the appropriate debates.
borrowing in this Queen’s Speech. That is a very simple This speech is not the appropriate moment, because I
phrase and I look forward to seeing the detail. Her Majesty am not here to speak for Wales; I am here to speak for
talked about the Government Wokingham and West Berkshire, and I am here to
“keeping borrowing and debt under control” speak for the wider nation, as we all do.
and “a responsible fiscal strategy”. Let me assure the I am also looking forward to the promises on
Government that if I am returned to the position of infrastructure. The Government have rightly said that
Chair of the Public Accounts Committee—or, indeed, we have a big job of work to do to improve our railways
even if I am not—I will hope that that Committee and roads, to make sure that people can get to work and
watches every penny and pound of taxpayers’ money get their children to school, that we can bust the congestion
that is being spent. I will be challenging the Government and that people have easier journeys. That, too, will
on the efficiency, effectiveness and economy of every reduce pollution and increase safety.
promise made in this Queen’s Speech and every plan
that emerges from it. But above all, I will challenge, Wokingham is a very fast-growing area, because we
cajole, criticise and at every stage make sure that this are doing more than our fair share for the national
Government are doing what they can to deliver for the housing achievement. We particularly need support on
best interests of my constituents in Hackney South and putting in additional transport links, with digital signals
Shoreditch. on the railways so that we can have more capacity and
more trains, and an improved road network. It was a
pleasure to work with the previous Secretary of State
4.29 pm
for Transport in the last Parliament on the idea of
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): It was a pleasure strategic local highway networks. We needed more money
to see our new Speaker in the Chair at the start of the and support for those important roads, which are under
debate, and I would like to send my congratulations to the control of councils. They do not qualify for trunk
him through you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was delighted status but can often relieve trunk roads and provide an
at his election, and I am quite sure that he will be a fair important means for my constituents and others to get
and experienced judge of our affairs and will look after to work or get their children to school. The previous
our House very well. Government answered that, but it falls to the new
63 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 64

Government, with the more generous financial settlement world economy, and we saw what was happening to
that I look forward to, to ensure that we can work world markets. It spread to the eurozone, which stopped
together, so that I can get some of those road schemes all its quantitative easing, although its economy was
and rail improvements for the Wokingham area, which still very weak and could not really take that particular
will be much needed. shock, and it came to the United Kingdom, where we
The big thing, which represents a seismic shift in had a very severe policy being pursued by the Bank of
Government policy and which I welcome, is the introduction England. Very predictably—I remember warning about
of optimism and enthusiasm—the belief that this country it some time ago—these changes in central bank policy
can achieve great things, that we do not have to constantly did indeed slow the world economy.
cut under the Maastricht criteria and that we should no Now things have changed, but they have not changed
longer make state debt the main objective of economic yet in the United Kingdom, so I urge the Prime Minister
policy. I have been working away for some time to get and the Chancellor to get the UK authorities into line
that change of policy, but Philip Hammond was not with the analysis and the prescription of the world
sympathetic to my views in all sorts of ways. I am central banks outside the United Kingdom. What we
delighted that the new Prime Minister and the new have seen in the last six months is a very big move to cut
Chancellor are enthusiastic about the idea that the aim interest rates worldwide by most of the major central
of economic policy for this Parliament must be prosperity— banks not only in the advanced world, but even more
prosperity for the many, and tax cuts for everyone. dramatically in quite a number of the emerging market
Tax cuts are a very important part of creating greater countries from Turkey to India and Brazil. We have
prosperity. People work hard, and they want to keep seen cuts in the United States of America, and we have
more of their own money. They are often better judges seen the reintroduction of quantitative easing—bond
of how to spend their money than councils and buying, created money—in the eurozone, because the
Governments. It falls to a renewed Conservative party eurozone economy has shuddered to a halt in some places.
to take that message to every part of the country, We have seen further developments in Japan, which carried
implement that message in the forthcoming Budget and on with quantitative easing and zero or negative interest
show that not only will we find more money for schools, rates throughout the difficult period, but it too needs to
hospitals and roads, which is needed, but we will also boost things rather more.
have some money for tax cuts. However, there has been no response in the United
Some tax cuts do pay for themselves because our Kingdom. Indeed, only in the last few days the Bank of
rates are too high, and if we cut them to an affordable England has gone the other way. It has done a series of
rate, people work harder, stay here, contribute more and stress tests on the major banks, and I am delighted to
are more enterprising, and we get more money in. Other say that our major banks passed with flying colours.
tax cuts will reduce the revenue, so we need to grow the The worst case in the stress test was very severe, but
economy, and over the years it works because growth there were no problems for the banks, as the Bank of
generates more jobs and higher incomes, and in comes England reported. However, the Bank of England then
more money. said that the clearing banks had to double the counter-
cyclical buffer of capital they keep. That is technical
To fulfil this new objective, the Government have
language. What does it mean? It means there is about
rightly changed the basis on which the economy is
£20 billion less available for mortgages, car loans, business
going to be governed. We have gone away from state
expansion and new investment. That is what it means—a
debt as a percentage of GDP, the iron rule that dominated
very fundamental monetary tightening. It happened at
the last dreadful years of the Labour Government—a
the same time that sterling went up about 10%—another
period of collapse, when state debt got out of control—
very strong monetary tightening.
dominated the coalition period of recovery and dominated
the Philip Hammond Conservative Government period, Money growth is eye-wateringly low in the United
when he seemed to like that particular proposition. Kingdom, unlike in the eurozone, and it is well below
Now we have a much more sensible idea, which is that that in the United States of America. At exactly the
we should of course be prudent—there is no magic point when we were doing this, the Federal Reserve
money tree, and we cannot spend safely on the scale Board, with 2%-plus growth in America, which we
Labour recommended to the country—so what we are would love to have on this side of the Atlantic, was
suggesting now as the golden rule is that any current injecting billions—I think about $150 billion was injected
expenditure must be covered out of taxation, but we in a single month—into the money markets to keep
can borrow up to 3% of GDP to put in those big new things liquid so that the American consumer, car buyer,
investments and the myriad smaller investments in mortgage demander and small businesses would have
broadband, rail, road, water and the other things where access to the money they needed to continue the very
public money is needed as an adjunct to the substantial successful American growth strategy. Let us ensure a
private investment that will in many places be going growth strategy in which monetary policy does not
into those important developments. stand too much on the brake.
This will make a lot of difference, because this Parliament There is also the issue of how the Treasury has been
needs to understand that there has been a very nasty recalculating our obligations at official level. Around
world manufacturing recession over the last six months October, when it probably thought that we might be
or so and there has been a worrying slowdown in the leaving the European Union—there was a chance of
world economy over the last year. It began, as these that at the time—it decided that the student loan system
things always do, with the central banks that get it was costing us £12 billion a year more, although that
wrong. It began with the tightening of the central bank system had not been accounted for in such a way up to
in America, the Federal Reserve Board, in the third and that point. There were no changes to the student loan
fourth quarters of 2018. We could feel the shake on the system, or to the experiences of those who could not
65 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 66

[John Redwood] Sir Edward Davey: The right hon. Gentleman shakes
his head, and I am sorry if I misinterpreted his remarks.
repay their loans, yet the figures that we presented We should look at quantitative easing and how it is
deteriorated sharply as a result of that decision. I do done, both in this country and elsewhere. There is some
not think we should allow that to deviate from what I concern that the way central banks have done it has not
hope will be a positive Budget—probably at the end of led to a fair distribution of prosperity and that the
next month, given the rumours I see in the press. money has gone into a small number of hands, resulting
We need the Budget to provide that boost to growth. in increased inequality.
I think it is eminently affordable to have the increases I am slightly worried by something that the right hon.
that we promised and talked about in the general election Gentleman said about monetary policy that might
regarding schools, hospitals and infrastructure, and also imply—he might disagree that this was his implication—that
eminently affordable to have those promised tax cuts to there should be some challenge to the independence of
business rates and national insurance. We would not the central bank by the Government of the day. I would
need to offset that with other tax increases, because this not welcome that, although I would certainly welcome
economy desperately needs a boost. a debate on quantitative easing. I look forward to
In a world where some other Governments are boosting debating with him, so that we get our macroeconomic
on the fiscal side, and practically every other country is policy right. Finally, I will just say this. It did appear that
boosting on the monetary side, in order to see off the the right hon. Gentleman was talking about expansionary
threat of the world slowdown turning into something fiscal policy and expansionary monetary policy. I wonder
worse, it is important that the United Kingdom authorities if he is worried about the impact of Brexit on our
do the same thing. I have every confidence in my right economy.
hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who I think is single- Like the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to
handedly turning around the mood with his message of remember one of our late friends, Frank Dobson, who
confidence and enthusiasm for how we can do better. passed away last month. Although we were members of
That will take some cash, however, and now is the time different political parties, I found Frank to be one of
to spend a bit of that. the friendliest, most decent and most committed Members
This country and its economy can achieve a lot more, of this House I have ever met in my 20 years here. From
so let us ensure that the new message of prosperity for his opposition to the Iraq war and apartheid to the
the many and tax cuts for everyone is seen through. work he did to rebuild the NHS, Frank leaves a proud
That is the way to bring most people in this country record. In his role as the Brian Blessed of the Commons,
together, and honour the promises that many of us Frank also leaves several volumes of funny, filthy and
made in the general election. That will show that the totally politically incorrect jokes. Mr Deputy Speaker, I
country has made wise decisions up to this point, and am sure you would like to hear an example, but I fear I
that Brexit will not be damaging to our economy, but must remind the House that our proceedings are being
can be part of a positive move towards faster growth, broadcast before the 9 pm watershed.
better jobs, and more paid jobs, just as we have experienced I pay tribute to the mover and the seconder of the
in recent years and months. Humble Address. The hon. Member for Chatham and
Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) has a bright career in front
4.42 pm of her, particularly in pantomime. I invite her to join
me in my annual walk-on part for St Paul’s Players in
Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): It Chessington. This year, during the general election,
is a great privilege to follow the right hon. Member for I took my family and I had my walk-on part as one of
Wokingham (John Redwood), and it was a delight to Robin Hood’s merry men. I can tell you, Mr Deputy
hear that he is a convert, however late, to increased Speaker, that I know where the baddies are in this House
public spending. He made some interesting points about and where the Sheriff of Nottingham sits. The hon.
macroeconomic policy and he spoke about the new Member for Walsall North (Eddie Hughes) made an
fiscal rule that the Chancellor announced just before impressively long speech as a bid for a job ahead of the
the general election, which I hope the House will soon Prime Minister’s ministerial reshuffle. I wish him luck.
get to debate. He welcomed that rule, but I have some
I believe our United Kingdom is one of the greatest
concerns about it as I think it rather old-fashioned. I
examples of international co-operation in world history,
would like a new fiscal rule to consider the net worth of
so much so that four nations can be as one while being
the public sector and ensure that it is growing over time;
themselves: democratic, open and internationalist, operating
at the moment it is in negative territory, particularly
under the rule of law and under the uniting presence of
because of various pension fund liabilities. That would
Her Majesty. We have been a beacon of political stability
be a much better approach to managing fiscal policy
in the world. I believe we remain fundamentally a
long term, because it looks at the whole balance sheet of
people who are outward-looking, inclusive, compassionate
the public sector, which is what a normal business
and capable of progressive reform as we recognise and
would do. We now have a data set for the past three
value the lessons of history.
years from the Office for National Statistics, and I hope
we can have that debate later on, because it is important Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I thank my
to get fiscal policy right. right hon. Friend for giving way. Does he agree that,
The right hon. Gentleman made two other interesting while the Scottish National party might trumpet gaining
points about monetary policy. He spoke about wanting 80% of Scottish seats, the fact is that only 45% of the
to bring back quantitative easing, which is an interesting people of Scotland voted for it? If we had a more
question. proportional representation system, that would have
been reflected in the seats there, in the same way as the
John Redwood indicated dissent. seats here might have been a little different.
67 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 68

Sir Edward Davey: My hon. Friend is exactly right. putting a spending commitment for the health service
The majority of people in Scotland voted for parties into law, but that prompts one question: is the spending
who want to preserve the Union. I get a sense that right enough? I do not want to repeat the election debate,
hon. and hon. Members on the Government Benches where the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats
should also note that the majority of people voted for were arguing for higher health spending than the
parties who wanted to give the people a final say on the Government. Instead, let me approach it in a rather
European Union. different way, in terms of what our medium-term NHS
We needed a Queen’s Speech that would truly keep spending target should be.
our country together, heal the divides and tackle the Most health analysts tend to talk, not as the Prime
challenges of inequality, lack of opportunity and climate Minister does, in the abstract—in total spending, which
change. However, I fear the Prime Minister’s Queen’s is bound to go up with an ageing population and
Speech will only undermine our united country’s great economic growth—but in comparisons between similar
traditions. I fear that, with this Government’s programme, countries: on spending per person, on the percentage of
we will become a more inward-looking, more illiberal the national income. If we compare the UK’s health
and less compassionate country. The one nation rhetoric spending in these ways—even with the Prime Minister’s
of the Prime Minister is not matched by his actions. Let rises—against the world’s other largest developed countries,
me start with Brexit. the UK fares badly. In the G7, our health spending per
Let us be clear that the Prime Minister and the person is the second lowest—lower than Germany and
Conservative party now own Brexit. It is their total and France. As a share of national income, in the G7, the
complete responsibility. They cannot blame anyone else UK again performs badly, with Italy the only country
any more. They have become the Brexit party from top that is spending less.
to bottom. The question, of course, is this: will the I readily admit that the NHS is far more efficient as a
Prime Minister get Brexit done? More precisely, will he health service than, say, the health system of the United
get it done by the end of the year, so we can avoid the States, but surely we should be really ambitious for the
disaster of a no-deal Brexit? Well, we shall see. NHS, and the factual evidence shows that this Government
The Prime Minister’s biggest weapon in his Brexit and this Queen’s Speech are not. As we legislate for
deal endeavour is surely his unmatched flexibility with future NHS spending targets, why do we not take the
the truth. His so-called triumph of achieving a deal for opportunity to be really ambitious? Why do we not aim
Brexit phase one was possible only because he betrayed to spend 10% of our national income on the NHS, as a
his big promise to the Democratic Unionist party, his minimum? That would bring us up to G7 comparators,
erstwhile big supporters. His willingness to jump and I think that the British people would back a policy
unashamedly over every red line he had previously been where £1 in every £10 of the national cake was spent on
willing to die in a ditch for will have been noted in the nation’s health. I accept that the Government may
Brussels by Europe’s rather more skilful negotiators. be nervous about spending targets based on national
income because their economic policies look set to fail
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): so badly and national income will grow very slowly.
The right hon. Gentleman makes a fairly accurate
assessment of the communication between the Conservative John Redwood: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept
party, its leader and my party, but does he agree that that comparing a health service that is completely free
there is still the opportunity and time for redemption? to the user with one where there are payments through
insurance schemes and collections of money is not a
Sir Edward Davey: There is always time for redemption, fair comparison? He should add in all the costs of the
but if the hon. Gentleman is hoping for it in this case Inland Revenue in the UK, because that is the way we
from this Prime Minister, I wish him well. collect the revenue. And in relation to a previous point
that he made, I think Brexit is good for the economy,
Some of us have led successful negotiations, pan-Europe,
not bad—I have always said that.
in Brussels—difficult negotiations that I won for Britain—on
everything from economic reform of the single market
to climate change. I did not succeed by adopting this Sir Edward Davey: I will come to that last point in a
Prime Minister’s tactics of bulldog bluster combined second, but the right hon. Gentleman’s point about
with the record of a turncoat. I do not believe that that health systems is an interesting point for debate. I point
is the right approach, and I do not believe that he will to countries such as Denmark, which have a taxpayer-
succeed without reneging on all, or most, of his previous funded system and spend a significantly higher share of
promises to leave voters. My parliamentary interest in their national income on health. I am afraid that his
this is whether or not, in the dark Conservative forests point is not valid.
of the Brexit Spartans, his erstwhile friends have yet
smelt betrayal. We shall see, but as we oppose Brexit Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Will the right hon.
and continue to point out the extra costs, economic Gentleman give way?
damage and loss of influence, we will also remind
Government colleagues of the previously unthinkable Sir Edward Davey: No, I am going to make some progress.
concessions that now need to be made for any chance of On economic policy and Brexit, I have to tell the
a deal next year. House that I am worried about self-imposed Brexit
I turn to the NHS, which the Prime Minister has austerity. I will explain why. First, take the damage to
made so much of. Every Member of the House was growth from Brexit and the red tape of Brexit at our
elected on a manifesto committed to increasing spending customs borders, a cost estimated by Her Majesty’s
on the NHS in real terms—maybe there is a little Revenue and Customs at a mere £15 billion every year.
political consensus there. I, for one, am relaxed about We had a red tape battle in the coalition, and we never
69 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 70

[Sir Edward Davey] happy to take an intervention. None are coming. What
did this Prime Minister have to say about what is now
got anywhere near saving that amount of money, yet the cheapest form of renewable power? He said that
this Government want to impose that cost on our wind farms would barely
businesses. “pull the skin off a rice pudding”.
Then we have the damage to businesses and our NHS This technology is a global leader from Britain. It is
from the ending of free movement of labour within the powering our homes, but the Prime Minister apparently
EU. That will damage growth overnight. It is not just does not believe in it.
the impact on economic growth of this Brexit austerity
that worries me, but the impact on the poorest and most Then we see the Conservative record on climate change
vulnerable in our society who will feel it the most. We since 2015, voted for at every stage by the Prime Minister:
have already seen the numbers of children in poverty scrapping the zero carbon homes regulations, banning
rise by nearly 400,000 since 2015, and we have seen the onshore wind power and stopping tidal lagoon power.
report from the Resolution Foundation, which I hope And then we come to Heathrow. In south-west London,
that Government Members will read, that analysed the we do not forget what the Prime Minister said just four
Conservative’s general election manifesto and said that years ago, when he promised that he would
child poverty will continue to rise year-on-year with “lie down in front of those bulldozers and stop the construction
that party’s policies. of that third runway.”
If only, Mr Deputy Speaker—if only.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): One hundred and thirty-five
thousand children will live in temporary accommodation Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): Does my right
this Christmas, and this Government make no proposal hon. Friend agree that this Conservative Government’s
to resolve that tragedy. Temporary accommodation causes commitment to expanding Heathrow, and the economic
childhood trauma and the problem will be resolved benefits claimed for it, do not justify the impact on
only if we build a lot more social homes for rent. climate change, the impact on air quality and the impact
on noise, in south-west London in particular but also
Sir Edward Davey: I could not agree more with my over a very wide area?
hon. Friend. Shelter’s report made that very point this
week. There was no mention of homeless people in the
Queen’s Speech, and no mention of tackling child poverty. Sir Edward Davey: My hon. Friend is absolutely
right. She has been an amazing campaigner against the
There was another huge omission from the Queen’s third runway, and I always admire her advice and thank
Speech: the climate emergency. Sure, we heard the her for it.
unambitious 2050 net zero target mentioned again, but
just like in the Conservative manifesto, there was a lack When we on these Benches say that we do not trust
of a sense of urgency and of a set of practical but this Prime Minister and this Government on climate
radical measures. I find that truly alarming. It is particularly change. The evidence is with us, so we will raise the need
alarming because this Prime Minister has previously for radical action on climate change time and again in
written so scathingly about the need to tackle climate this Parliament. We will work to force the Government
change. to make the next global climate change talks in Glasgow
in November a success, even though they come, ironically,
Meg Hillier: The right hon. Gentleman will know, as just when the UK will be losing its influence on climate
a former Secretary of State for Energy and Climate change at the European table. We will champion the
Change, how long it takes to get these major projects need to decarbonise capitalism, and to build on the
that will deliver big change up and running. In my fantastic work done by the Governor of the Bank of
speech, I outlined three failures that happened because England, Mark Carney. Today, in the Financial Times,
of this Government and their predecessor. Does he agree we read that Mr Carney is taking action, introducing
that we need to get action going now? world-leading climate stress tests in major financial
institutions. If only this Government would back the
Sir Edward Davey: I absolutely do. In her speech, the Bank of England in the City, there would be a historic
hon. Lady mentioned carbon capture and storage; I opportunity for this country to lead the world with a
had pushed that competition forward, and it was going gold standard for green finance, but I fear that there is
very well but, directly after the 2015 election, the then no ambition on the Conservative Benches for that.
Chancellor cancelled it overnight and put Britain’s global This Queen’s Speech is disappointing on so many
leadership on this key climate change technology back levels, and we will vote against it. Liberal Democrats in
years. It was a disgraceful measure. this Parliament will do our democratic duty: we will
I was talking about the opinions of the Prime Minister scrutinise the Government, and argue for the liberal,
on climate change. Just seven years ago, in his infamous inclusive, fairer and greener society in which we believe.
Telegraph column, he sought to cast doubt on mainstream
climate science, dismissing it as complete tosh. You can 5.2 pm
hear him saying that, can you not, Mr Deputy Speaker?
Instead, he warned about the Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): It is a pleasure
“encroachment of a mini ice age”.
to follow the right hon. Member for Kingston and
Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey), who, in his parade of
That is what our Prime Minister said. greatest hits, somehow forgot to mention that the
On wind power, in which Britain now leads the world achievements that he described were under a Conservative-
thanks to Liberal Democrat Ministers—[HON. MEMBERS: led Government. However, it is nice to know that he
“Oh!”] If anybody wants to contest that point, I am regards them as successes. It is also a great pleasure to
71 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 72

see a fellow Kent MP in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker. then devolution deals, in which, for the first time in
I congratulate you on your position, and on taking the 100 years, the flow of power was away from Whitehall
Chair today. and towards our great towns and cities. Negotiating the
Throughout the Prime Minister’s speech, he referred Tees Valley devolution deal, which established the mayoralty
consistently to “one nation”, and it is right that he did and devolved funding and decision making from the
so, because what we have experienced in the last week is banks of the Thames to the banks of the Tees, was a big
something extraordinary. In towns, villages and cities in moment. It meant that every Teessider has experienced
every part of our country, individual men and women what a dedicated, effective Conservative Mayor can do.
have resolved, quietly but together, to move on, not only I believe that it paved the way for the strong representation
from the divisions of the past three and a half years but, of Tees Valley MPs who now sit on the Conservative
in many cases, from differences that have endured for Benches.
decades. There has been a coming together of the The same is true for the west midlands, which has
nation in a spirit of quiet pragmatism and a determination become close to my heart through my work with
to progress, rejecting both an attempt to divide our manufacturing industry. I negotiated the devolution
nation between Leave and Remain and an attempt to deal that led to Andy Street being elected Mayor of that
impose an extreme and ideological doctrine on a moderate great region. With energy, tenacity and intellect, he has
and flexible people. shown everyone in that region what Conservative
I have never been prouder to swear the oath of administration can deliver.
allegiance to Her Majesty—and, by extension, to our It would not be right or fair to my hon. Friends to say
country—than I was earlier this week. The spirit of that without Ben Houchen, we would not have Jacob
national cohesion, of one nation, means so much to me Young and Peter Gibson in the Tees Valley, and that
because of the course of my own life. As you know, without Andy Street, we would not have Nicola Richards
Mr Deputy Speaker, my constituency of Tunbridge and Shaun Bailey in West Bromwich. Their mandate is
Wells is a beautiful and famous place: famous for being their own, and we are proud of their achievements.
home to people with strong views who are given to However, I know that my hon. Friends would agree that
expressing them robustly and confidently, and I would it was an enormous help to have that experience of
not have it any other way, but famous too for a civility effective Conservative administration. That is why I
and courtesy that made even going from door to door commend the commitment in the Queen’s Speech to
during a winter election campaign a warm and convivial give communities even greater control over how investment
experience. I enjoyed it enormously. is spent so that they can decide what is best for them,
Tunbridge Wells has always chosen a Conservative just as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did
Member of Parliament, but it would be a fatal error to when he was a very distinguished Mayor of London.
assume that that is automatic and that support can be The people of Tunbridge Wells and the people of
taken for granted. Tunbridge Wells is an articulate, Teesside do not belong to different nations, for all the
discerning and demanding place. People there work assumptions over the years that that was so. They are all
very hard. They live prudently rather than lavishly, and of one nation. They believe identically in working hard
many face tough challenges that belie our reputation as to get on, and taking pride in our country and its
a place of uniform affluence. history, which is not in conflict with knowing that we
Tunbridge Wells has elected Conservatives in part at need to do new things well to advance. They are
least because it has experienced good, effective Conservative straightforward enough to know that things have to be
representation, whether from my predecessors, Sir Patrick earned and paid for, rather than conjured from thin air.
Mayhew and Archie Norman—and, I hope, myself; They will pay their taxes, but want them to be used
from Kent county council, led by effective public servants responsibly on useful things and not squandered. They
such as Sir Sandy Bruce-Lockhart and Paul Carter; or are practical men and women, suspicious of ideology
from a borough council that has regularly provided and dogma, and when they elect people to office, they
some of the best facilities and services, offering some of expect them to do what they promise and to see concrete
the best value in the country. results. From Tunbridge Wells to Teesside, they are the
same people and part of the same nation: one nation,
I was born at the other end of the country, in
our United Kingdom, and I am proud that the Conservative
Middlesbrough, and went to comprehensive school in
party is now indisputably their champion and their
South Bank, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the
choice.
new Member for Redcar (Jacob Young). My early training
in canvassing was going door to door round the estates
on Thursday and Friday nights, collecting the milk 5.9 pm
money for my father and grandfather, who were local Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): May I first
milkmen. During those years, it was impossible to imagine congratulate the Government on winning the election?
that South Bank, Eston and Normanby would return a For many people across the United Kingdom, the kind
Conservative Member of Parliament. of Queen’s Speech we could have had today could have
The dividing lines of two nations seemed to be been vastly different: probably a programme for bankruptcy
impregnable, but I think one of the reasons for that was rather than a programme for a brighter future for the
people’s lack of experience of Conservative administration United Kingdom. It is significant that, right across the
at a local level. That was made a thing of the past United Kingdom, people who would normally have
through the election and record in office of Ben Houchen voted for other parties decided that they were not taken
as the Mayor of Tees Valley. I am proud that, as in by the Leader of the Opposition wrapping himself in
Minister for cities, and later as Secretary of State for his big red coat and promising all kinds of Christmas
Communities and Local Government, I introduced the presents. They knew that, if they voted for that, they
concept of city deals, which became growth deals, and would be paying for Christmas for years.
73 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 74

[Sammy Wilson] the troubles. Tens of thousands are still living with the
consequences, and they do not have access to services
It is important that we have a Government who have on the same basis as in other parts of the United
promised to deliver sensible arrangements for services Kingdom. We look forward to the commitment on that
across the United Kingdom and sensible economic and on the promise that legacy issues will be dealt with,
growth, while at the same time recognising that one of so that soldiers are not dragged through the courts for
the major things that people in this country wanted was things that happened 40 years ago, while, incidentally,
delivery on the promise that the referendum to leave the terrorists walk free as a result of arrangements made by
European Union would be honoured. I will come back the Labour party during the Belfast agreement negotiations.
to that issue in a moment or two, because I do not We are happy to support the benefits that high streets
believe that the approach the Government are taking will see from changes to business rates. I have seen the
fully fulfils that commitment. There are things that we devastation done by high rates to businesses across
as a party want to see the Government changing in the town centres in my constituency. Business rates relief is,
next year. But let me just say that we welcome many of of course, only one part of the solution to the changing
the commitments that have been made. retail environment right across the United Kingdom.
I know from the campaign that I had around the Promoting business through tax incentives for research
doors in East Antrim that one of the major things that and development, for training and for opening up new
came up time and again was the state of our health markets will be especially important as we look to the
service. Given the growing demands on the health service, wider global benefits that we can take when we leave the
the greater possibilities for treatments that did not exist EU and can do our own trade deals.
in the past, and the higher standards that people expect, Those are the things to which we can give our support.
there are increasing demands on the health service’s Throughout many of today’s speeches, including the
resources. We have a commitment from the Government Prime Minister’s, people have talked about the Government
to put more money into the health service. I know that party being a one nation party. However, if we are to
there have been complaints. There was no mention of talk about a one nation party, it must not be one nation
Wales in the Queen’s Speech. Of course Northern Ireland, just in terms of bringing forward policies that affect all
like Wales and Scotland, will benefit from these decisions the social layers in the economy and in the country; it
because there will be Barnett consequentials for the must also extend to all parts of the United Kingdom.
devolved Administrations to spend. The Conservative party wants to be the party of the
I also welcome the promise of infrastructure Union and I noted that the Prime Minister said that he
development, and I look forward to the Prime Minister would not allow anyone to rip up the UK—one of the
delivering on the comment he made to my hon. Friend most successful political unions. Yet one of the first
the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), when he things mentioned in the Queen’s Speech is the pushing
talked about physically linking Northern Ireland to the through of the withdrawal agreement Bill, the content
GB mainland with a bridge. He said, “Watch this space”, of which will, in effect, leave Northern Ireland behind
and we will be watching this space. We expect the space the EU’s customs frontier. It will leave us outside UK
between Scotland and Northern Ireland to be filled at customs arrangements and inside the EU customs
some stage with a physical link. Physical links and arrangements. In effect, when it comes to trade and the
major infrastructure projects like this all over the world economy, the European boundary will be extended
are judged not only on their economic benefits but on around the outside of Northern Ireland, which will
their political benefits, including how they integrate have economic consequences for businesses in Northern
countries. Indeed, if one looks at the arguments for Ireland: increased costs, delays in goods going through
HS2 integrating the north of England with the south of customs, or extra bureaucracy. Of course, it will also
England, we see that it is as much a political project as it affect trade from Northern Ireland into Great Britain,
is an economic one. which is our biggest market. Those are only the immediate
economic consequences; there will also be long-term
Geraint Davies: My right hon. Friend has mentioned political consequences.
Wales and infrastructure. Wales has 5% of the population,
11% of the rail track and 1.5% of the rail investment. Mr Gregory Campbell: Does my right hon. Friend
We do not benefit from HS2, and we would look to have agree that, as the Government proceed with getting
a consequential from that. Does he agree that this is not Brexit done in the course of 2020, which many people
a fair system, and that Wales needs more in that sense? will be content with, the bigger picture beyond that will
be the unity of the United Kingdom and increased
prosperity? It has to flow—the Prime Minister alluded
Sammy Wilson: This should apply to all national to this—not just to the south-east of England, but to all
infrastructure projects. I am pleased to see, for example, the United Kingdom.
that even with an infrastructure project such as the third
runway at Heathrow, there is a commitment to ensuring Sammy Wilson: That is the other argument: not just
that some of the benefits are spilled out across the rest that the Prime Minister would not allow the UK to be
of the United Kingdom through various Heathrow hub ripped up, but that he wanted to extend UK prosperity
projects, which I hope Northern Ireland will benefit to every part of it. I understand that many people in
from. There are ways of dispersing the expenditure on Northern Ireland will never share the view of the Union
those major projects, even if they do not physically run that my party and I have. They may not look at it from a
through some parts of the United Kingdom. cultural or historical point of view, but they understand
The commitment to the application of the armed the importance of being part of the fifth biggest economy
forces covenant is especially important in Northern in the world. They understand the value of that, how it
Ireland, given the number of people who served through benefits them economically and how it shelters them
75 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 76

from the economic storms that affect the world economy The opportunity of the Government’s stronger
from time to time. We would not have survived the negotiating position has to be taken. I would say to the
banking crisis, for example, had we not been part of the Prime Minister, “Use your parliamentary majority. Use
United Kingdom. It is significant that some of those the fact that Europe can no longer rely on the Government
who aspire to a united Ireland turn a blind eye to the of the United Kingdom being undermined by actions
fact that the Irish Government had to seek a multibillion- and decisions taken in this House. Get changes made
pound loan from the United Kingdom because they that ensure we leave the EU so that we get Brexit done,
could not survive the economic storm of the world and get it done for the whole United Kingdom.”
banking crisis. Being part of the United Kingdom has
huge economic benefits, and not only for Northern Ireland
5.24 pm
but for Scotland.
The Scottish National party, because of its electoral Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I rise to
success, is now pushing for a second referendum. The speak in support of the Gracious Address. I begin by
SNP says the situation has changed. Ironically, of course, congratulating the proposer and seconder of the Humble
the situation has changed since the last once-in-a-generation Address. It is a huge honour to be chosen for either
referendum. The SNP now has fewer MPs and a lower position. My hon. Friend the Member for Chatham
share of the vote than in 2015. What has changed is that and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), who is a very popular
there is now less support. If anything, this agitation for colleague, did not disappoint the House. Her speech
another referendum is not based on the democratically was first class. Our hon. Friend the Member for Walsall
expressed views of the people of Scotland. In that North (Eddie Hughes) kept us well entertained with a
absence, it is right that referendums should not be tour de force delivered with no notes.
continually offered year after year just because a party Mr acting Deputy Speaker, last night someone said
claims its electoral fortunes have gone up or down a to me, “David, you’ve been here a long time. You must
little. Otherwise, we could have demands after every be near to becoming the Father of the House.” I looked
election. up the list of seniority to find that I am No. 7, which left
It is now important for this Government to sell the me depressed. In part, that is because I think I am a
benefits of the Union right across the United Kingdom little young to be Father of the House, but let me make
and to act so that people see those benefits. Where the it abundantly and absolutely clear that, as the father of
Government have acted, they should talk up what they five children, the idea of becoming father to 649 MPs is
have done. As I know from having been a Minister in too much.
the Northern Ireland Executive, there is a tendency for Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge
devolved Administrations, both Unionist and nationalist, Wells (Greg Clark), I hated every minute of the general
to claim all the good things that happen and to say that election campaign.
all the bad things are because of what Westminster has
done. If we are to spend more money on projects that Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con): Oh!
benefit the whole United Kingdom, and if we are to put
more money into the health service and into education, Sir David Amess: I am sorry, but I did. I did not want
Ministers should make it clear by going out across the an election to take place two weeks before Christmas. I
United Kingdom to sell that it has happened because of did more than 100 canvassing sessions in the wet and
decisions made in London, where the centre of government the cold, tripping up steps at night, holding a handkerchief
rests in the United Kingdom. Let us be bold in selling in one hand because of a cold. I found it depressing,
the Union. although obviously I am thrilled to bits by the result.
Before the Government can do that, they must address Thinking of the detail of the campaign, it seems to me
what their current agreement will do to Northern Ireland. that in my constituency the manufacturers of grey paint
The Conservatives cannot claim to be a Unionist party must have run out of supplies; every other house was
while cutting Northern Ireland off. grey. Often when I pressed a doorbell, the purple thing
went round and round and then I found myself talking
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): My to people who were not inside the house. I thought it
right hon. Friend is coming to the heart of the matter was a huge risk to hold a general election when we did. I
for us. I agree that the Union is crucial and that many of had no idea that the British people would turn out in
the issues that need to be addressed to mitigate the such great numbers. From the Conservative point of
consequences of the withdrawal agreement are internal view though, the result is fantastic.
to the United Kingdom. There are measures the Among the Opposition parties, the smaller ones had
Government can take to mitigate the impact on the mixed results and I do not know what their take on the
economy and on businesses in Northern Ireland, and election is, but I entirely understand why SNP Members
we seek a commitment from the Government that they are very happy with the result they achieved. I do not
will do that to benefit the whole United Kingdom. know what their strategy is for the next five years, but
previously when they had a lot of Members they energised
Sammy Wilson: My right hon. Friend is right. We have the place and a lot of robust debates were had. I hope
another year before we finally settle our relationship that they will achieve something in the next five years,
with the EU and, if they really want to live up to their even though they may be disappointed regarding their
commitment to be a one nation party, the Government overall objective.
should refuse to have the United Kingdom ripped up. They Now, I look at the Labour Benches. All new Members
should want to see the United Kingdom prosper as a are thrilled to bits about winning their seat, but those of
whole, without part of it being left as an economic us who were previously MPs tend to think about the
backwater because it is cut off from its main market, GB. human side of it all and those, including some of our
77 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 78

[Sir David Amess] We are here for five years and there is an awful lot
that we can do. I agree with every part of the manifesto,
colleagues, who lost their seat. I think we have lost some so I shall pick up on only two points. The first is about
very good colleagues indeed from the Labour Benches. building regulations. I am honoured to be the chairman
I will not get involved in the internal discussions within of the all-party group on fire safety and rescue. Had we
the Labour party, but I hope that those colleagues who been listened to, the Grenfell disaster would never have
lost their seat are given as much support as possible and happened. That is a reality. There is a sentence in the
are not simply abandoned. manifesto about it; we have to do something with the
As I look at the Conservative Benches, I remember—as building regulations. We have to make sure that there
do you, Sir Roger—the day in 1983 that we were elected. are sprinklers in every new school that is built and we
We remember the joy of that election and the huge must retrospectively fit sprinklers in high-rise blocks.
thrill. It is a huge honour to be sworn in and to make That has to be delivered.
one’s maiden speech, perhaps with mum and dad, family My second point is about animal welfare. My right
and friends looking on. I have been looking at the hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger
figures for that election: 397 Conservatives were elected Gale), who is currently in the Chair, and I were among
and Labour was down to 209. We had a majority of the four or five Conservatives who voted against foxhunting.
144. Fast forward to last Thursday, and we now have an There has been a sea change among those of us on the
overall majority of 80, with 365 Conservative MPs. Conservative Benches and we must not let the animal
Labour has 203. Although not too many of my new kingdom down. If I did not have the support of every
colleagues are present to listen to what I am going to constituent in Southend West, I had the support of
say, I hope they will read Hansard and reflect on what every dog. I had dog of the day on my Twitter account.
happened. I will not let the animal kingdom down, and I hope that,
I became famous for 30 seconds in 1992, when I on a cross-party basis, we can do something to stop the
retained the Basildon seat for the third time. We had a live exports of animals—we must do that.
huge election victory, but five years later—or 14 years Let me come now to my final measure—social care.
after you and I were elected, Sir Roger—we suffered an Anything can happen in five years. Whatever we
absolutely catastrophic defeat. Labour got 418 seats do—whether it is a royal commission or not—we must
and the Conservatives were down to 165. Sir Michael tackle this issue. My constituents say, “David, we are all
Shersby, who was the Member of Parliament for the growing older”, and I say, “You are either growing older
constituency that the Prime Minister now represents, or you are dead. Which way do you want it?” Given that
died a week after the general election and we were down we are all growing older, we must do something about
to 164. So I say to my colleagues and to anyone who is social care.
interested: it is no good the Conservative party winning Let me end with these thoughts. For many colleagues
an election and being the Government again after a the election is over, so what are they going to do for the
miserable two and a half years unless we do something next five years? I am already going to be involved in an
with our majority. There is no point in time-serving; it is election, because when we get back in January there are
now up to the Conservatives to deliver on the manifesto. two vacancies for Deputy Speaker on the Conservative
I will not reiterate what was in the manifesto, because side and I will be one of the candidates, and I will be
we are probably all sick to death of it, but it is now up to asking colleagues for their first preference vote. Furthermore,
the Conservative party, which has a wonderful opportunity, when we get Brexit done, there is something else that we
to make sure that every part of the country that has must get done, which is to make Southend-on-Sea a
elected a new Conservative Member of Parliament enjoys city. Let us get it done. I wish everyone a very happy
prosperity—if we deliver on the manifesto, all those Christmas and a wonderful new year.
new MPs’ constituents will enjoy that prosperity. What
is the point of being in politics just for the sake of it? We Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): Order. Just
are in politics to get things done. For the past three and before we proceed, may I remind the House that the
a half years, we have got nothing done. We have argued convention is that maiden speeches are heard uninterrupted?
with each other and there has been a horrible atmosphere I am saying that now because it gives me great pleasure
in this place. We have been falling out with one another. to call the first maiden speaker of the 2019 Parliament,
It is now down to my Conservative colleagues to get on the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood).
and deliver on the manifesto.
Although there are not many newly elected MPs 5.36 pm
present to listen to me, I am going to give them a bit of Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): Thank you, Mr Deputy
advice. They should be very careful who they trust; be Speaker. No pressure then!
wary of the colleague who does not make eye contact
but wants to know them only when they want something; As the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour
and be very wary of their ambitions. I know my own party, may I thank the people of Foyle and Belfast
limitations—my wife reminds me of them every single South for the resounding mandates that they have given
day—and we cannot all be Prime Minister. I have been my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Claire
covering up my disappointment at not being Prime Hanna) and me? We will not let you down and we will
Minister for 36 years. Do not be in a hurry to get not take your support for granted. I also want to thank
ministerial office. There are plenty of other things that my predecessor for the work that she did in the constituency.
Members can do in this place. As far as Ministers are I stand here, Mr Deputy Speaker, as an Irish nationalist.
concerned—we have a splendid lot of Ministers—once In fact, I stand here because I am an Irish nationalist,
they are on the ladder and get to the top, I am afraid not in spite of it, because I believe that every single
there is only one way to go. person in all our constituencies needs to be properly
79 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 80

and fully represented. I am glad to be here, but we are It is an enormous honour to have been re-elected for
not narrow nationalists. We come from the tradition of the third time in a very short number of years to represent
Parnell and Hume. Our vision is big and it is broad. Our my home area of Banbury, Bicester and 62 villages, and
mission is to unite all of our people, not divide them it is a great excitement to be part of what the Prime
any further. We intend to represent nationalists, unionists Minister describes as his “stonking” majority. It is also
and everybody else, and we will do that to the best of a great pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow
our ability. some very important speeches including that of my right
This Prime Minister wants to drag us out of the hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May),
European Union against our will. I know that he has a who spoke—as she has done so powerfully before—about
huge majority, but the only majority that I am concerned social justice. My right hon. Friend the Member for
about is the pro-remain majority in Northern Ireland Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) also made a very important
that has thankfully now got its voice back in this place. speech about how we should come together and celebrate
We may be few in number, but we intend to be very, very being the party of one nation.
loud in voice. It is fair to say that Banbury had the closest result in
The Prime Minister’s approach to Brexit is totally the nation in the referendum, as we voted to leave by
reckless. It drives a coach and horses through the Good 500 votes. Three years ago probably about half of my
Friday agreement and the relationships that we have constituents wanted to get Brexit done. That is not how
built up over many years, right across our community they feel now. I have lost count of the number of times
and right across our islands. I am glad to see now that people told me our slogan on the doorstep before I said
the Democratic Unionists are very concerned about the it. There was a coalescence of views from former liberals
checks between this island and our island. It is a pity and former Labour voters, who reinforced again and
that they did not think about that when they drove the again their strong belief in democracy, doing the right
Brexit agenda, and when they rejected Theresa May’s thing and respecting how people voted three years ago;
deal. Now we are in a situation that none of us is happy they were passionate about it. It is important that this
with. We are in a situation that every one of us should Government—this stonking democracy—delivers for
be trying to reverse and to reject. everyone. I am thrilled, having gone on about it rather a
Equally damaging to our progress and our peace lot in the previous Parliament, that if tomorrow goes as
process is the current proposal that basically gives an the Prime Minister expects it to, we will leave the EU
amnesty to British soldiers for whatever they carried with a deal. I also hope that his negotiations for a trade
out in Northern Ireland during our very, very difficult deal next year go as well as he hopes, and that we are
troubles. I come from a place called Derry. In 1972, able to protect the motor industry in Banbury and the
14 innocent civil rights marchers were gunned down by just-in-time jobs on which we depend locally, in so much
the British Army on the streets of Derry. They were of our area.
demanding their rights and they were marching against
internment. An international tribunal has stood by the Far more important to Banbury than the EU, though,
fact that they were innocent and were unlawfully killed. is the Horton General Hospital. That is what people
Is prosecuting those veterans vexatious? No, it is not. really wanted to talk about on the doorstep, day after
We will resist this attempt to undermine our peace day. I was able to tell them that, with the new investment
process and our political progress, and this insult to all from this Government, it is likely that we will be able to
the victims of our terrible, terrible past, who have been build a new modular set of buildings on the Horton site
denied the opportunity to find full truth and full justice that will make the hospital truly fit for the future. I
since 1998. We stand by every single one of those noticed after a very minor and very silly accident that
victims, no matter who the perpetrator was. Government I had during the campaign that we now have a severe
Members need to understand that if they begin with an parking problem at Horton General Hospital because
amnesty for the British Army, they will end up with an so many more procedures are being undertaken there. I
amnesty for everybody; that is the door they are opening want to make sure that the buildings are fit for purpose
with this proposal. It would better suit the Prime Minister and that we are able to bring maternity back to Banbury
and the Government to stand by all the innocent victims in the very near future so that babies are able to be born
who have been searching for truth and justice for far too there, as I was. People also wanted to talk to me about
long. school funding. We live in a historically underfunded
area, and I was glad to hear what we heard over the
I will end with one other comment. A proposal has course of the campaign on this issue.
been mentioned today by a number of people, including
by the Prime Minister, who said, “Watch this space.” But right up the agenda, before Brexit and just after
The Government want to build a bridge from Scotland the Horton, was the environment. That was the subject
to Northern Ireland. Well, they would be much better that people—women in particular, but people of all
suited building a decent road from Belfast to Derry. ages—wanted to talk about on the doorstep, in hustings
or in schools anywhere I went. This was an ambitious
5.41 pm Queen’s Speech on that agenda, but real change in this
Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con): It is always a pleasure area will require from all of us behavioural change that
and an honour to follow a maiden speech. No, I did not is going to be difficult. I am pleased that I was able to
agree with everything said by the hon. Member for work in a small way on creating ideas like the Great
Foyle (Colum Eastwood), who is new to this place, but British Spring Clean and in helping to reduce single-use
remarkably fluent and adept at using the Chamber. plastics during the last Parliament. There are real green
However, I absolutely applaud his desire to speak for all opportunities and a real chance now for the Government
his constituents, whether or not they voted for him. I to shape policy both across industry and across people’s
am sure we will be hearing much more from him in this lives on this agenda, and I look forward to working
place. on that.
81 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 82

[Victoria Prentis] the last few years. He will have heard the Prime Minister
give an undertaking earlier to incorporate that in the
Something I learned particularly at the end of the last sentencing review, but he touches on an important
Parliament was the importance of cross-party working difficulty that we have when talking about justice.
when I was proud to take part in the group of MPs for a When we consider sentencing, we think about a punitive
deal, which had some enormous success when 19 very element, but I hope we will remember that the aim of us
brave Opposition Members voted with Conservative all—even those of us who have spent 25 years often
Members for the Second Reading of the Bill that became advocating for prisoners’ rights—is to reduce crime and
the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. I pay ensure that we protect future victims by stopping crime
tribute, in particular, to my friend from Don Valley who from ever happening again. It is so important that we
lost her seat and who did more, perhaps, than any other concentrate on reforming people while they are in prison
to represent leave voters on the Opposition Benches at a and do not lock them up and throw away the key,
very difficult time in our parliamentary democracy. because nearly everybody who goes into prison is coming
Working cross-party was a leap of faith, but, to my mind, out again. It is really important that we have informed
it was worth it, and we gained more than we could debate in this House. We must recognise that we are
quantify, perhaps, from the unpleasant atmosphere that over the 20% mark of people in prison having committed
surrounded those very difficult votes. a sexual offence. A large number of sexual offenders in
I hope that in this Parliament, despite our stonking prison are coming out, and we have to think very
majority, we will work together on the environment carefully about the treatment they are given in prison,
and, in particular, on social care and on something I the effort we put into reforming them and how we
have a very personal interest in—achieving good deaths supervise them when they are released. That is my band-
for our citizens—both of which were mentioned by my wagon, as you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, having heard
hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Sir David me talk about it before. I would like in this Parliament
Amess). As he said, we know that just as taxes happen to concentrate once again on the justice sphere, and I
to us, death will happen to us all. It is important that we hope that I will be able to do so.
focus and work together on the way that we enable It is a great honour to have been re-elected and to be
people’s deaths to take place—we hope at home and we part of an enthusiastic, one nation Government who
hope peacefully. are going to get things done. I would like to conclude by
Another personal priority of mine is justice. During asking everyone to remember that Christmas is a time
this Parliament I will take a keen interest in the work of of enormous good will, but it also gives us a few days
the new royal commission on justice that has been off to reflect and think about what we are going to do
announced today. Of course, I welcome that. I welcome better next year. Merry Christmas to all, and I hope we
any interest in justice; I have been banging on about this come back refreshed and enthused about getting Brexit
area for the past 25 years. Most of my waking thoughts done and everything else we want to do.
for the past 25 years have been about our justice system.
Of course a royal commission is a good thing, but I very 5.52 pm
much hope that it acts speedily, that the right people are
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to
appointed to it, and that it looks very closely at the
follow the hon. Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis),
reports of the Justice Committee, of which I am rather
who I thank for her contribution. I am pleased to see
proud, from the last two Parliaments—particularly those
you in your place, Mr Deputy Speaker, and it was nice
on probation and on the prison population, which is
to see Mr Speaker earlier. He is a worthy gentleman,
quite a large and weighty report, I must confess.
and I look forward to catching his eye often.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Building I wish to welcome home some old faces and welcome
on the issue of cross-party working, which is very some new ones. We are able to have a friendship again
important, the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie with some who were in the House from 2015 to 2017
Peacock) mentioned sentencing. May I urge my hon. and then were absent for a short time. I am making it
Friend to take a serious look at this? Two young lads, my business to learn all the new names and faces, with
Harry Whitlam and Callum Wark, were constituents of the help of the wee directory we have, and to introduce
mine killed by drunk drivers. Callum’s killer, a Bulgarian myself and take the time to help them, in the way that
HGV driver who drank a bottle of vodka, drove straight many Members—especially on the Opposition Benches—
over his car and killed him on the day before his helped me when I came here in 2010. It will be an
20th birthday, was out of prison in three years. Eleven- honour to work with them as we attempt to do what the
year-old Harry Whitlam’s killer, who was five times electorate have resoundingly called for us to do in the
over the drink-drive limit and killed him on a farm, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland:
could be prosecuted only under the health and safety to get this country off her knees and standing firmly on
Acts and got 18 months. When my hon. Friend looks solid ground.
into sentencing and bringing this cross-party work together, In the early hours of Friday morning after the election,
will she ensure, for the families who mourned the loss of I was very privileged to be re-elected as the Member for
their children—Callum was an only child—that people Strangford once again. I thanked my God for that
recognise that if they intoxicate themselves, these are victory, and I do so in this House as well, because it is
not accidents but manslaughter and should carry a clear to me that my first thanks should be to my God
similar sentence? and saviour for giving us victory in Strangford. During
the election campaign, I said that the DUP voice of
Victoria Prentis: I thank my right hon. Friend for his Strangford will be heard, and today in this Chamber, on
intervention. He raises a very serious issue that has been the first occasion that there is, the voice of the DUP in
discussed a great deal on both sides of the House over Strangford will be heard through this Member.
83 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 84

I congratulate the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), I recognise
Eastwood) on his contribution. Obviously we have a that the Government have some good ideas to help the
very different constitutional position. As I have said to high street and retail businesses, and we wish to see
him, there will be things that we disagree on, but there those implemented.
will also be many things in this House that we will agree I am very much a community man in my constituency,
on and work together on. Although we come from a and I keep my ear to the ground, so I was not surprised
different political background, we will be together on when I went to the doors in Strangford to hear that the
many things in this House on behalf of the constituents main issue was getting a functioning Assembly up and
of Strangford and Foyle, because both need the same going. Talks are ongoing, and I know that the Secretary
things. Let us see what we can do to make those things of State has been working extremely hard with the
happen. parties to begin the journey to bring them together, so
How heartening it is to see the rise of the pound that they can do what they have been elected to do but
against the dollar, which was at 1.18 during my family prevented from doing: legislating and running Northern
holiday in August but was sitting at 1.32 when I last Ireland. We very much hope that those talks will be
checked. How heartening it is to see that the world is successful, and we look forward to that happening.
aware that the days of in-fighting and bickering are at The next issue on the doorstep in Strangford was
an end and that the ability to do something and deliver Brexit—the stalemate, the preservation of the Union
is now at the Government’s feet. We look to the Government and the way forward. The most important thing was not
to do that. I want to sow into the mix the most important necessarily Brexit; it was the Union. I remind the
aspects that Her Majesty so graciously raised today. Government and Conservative Members of the importance
I declare an interest, as a former member of the of securing the Union. People wondered how Scotland
Ulster Defence Regiment and a member of the Territorial would follow, after the divergence for Northern Ireland.
Army in the Royal Artillery for some 14 and a half I look to my Scots Nats friends and comrades here in
years collectively. I welcome the Government’s commitment the Chamber. I do not want them to leave the great
to the military covenant, but I ask them for not only United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
words but action. We will see that same commitment in I want them to stay. I want the Scottish National party
Northern Ireland, because it is so important that those to recognise that the large majority of people in Scotland
who have served in uniform in Northern Ireland and need want to stay within the United Kingdom, and only a
the help of the military covenant but are not getting it minority want to leave. The Government have a job to
have that opportunity. I wish to see that happen. It is do, which is to persuade my Scots Nats friends and
not words but action that we need. I also welcome the comrades of the need to stay in the United Kingdom of
Government’s commitment to spending 2% of GDP on Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and I hope that
defence, and I urge other NATO countries to see what they can do that.
they can do to match that, because our Government
have taken a step in the right direction. What will the PM’s aforementioned deal look like in
reality? The fishing industry, through Alan McCulla
I am pleased to welcome the Government’s commitments and the Anglo-North Irish Fish Producers Organisation,
to building controls for rental accommodation and to have posed this interesting scenario, which I feel deserves
knife control. As I have said in the House before, I very airing and clarification. It is so important that we look
much welcome the Government’s commitment to net at what the deal the Prime Minister has brought forward
zero carbon emissions by 2050 and tackling environmental will mean to us. They say:
issues. I am pleased that the National Farmers Union
and its sister organisation in Northern Ireland, the “Brexit offers Northern Ireland’s fishing industry once in a
lifetime opportunities”—
Ulster Farmers’ Union, are committed to those same
things. If the farming community is committed to the that is also what the fisheries Minister says—
2050 net zero carbon target, we should welcome that. “It will end the inequality, hypocrisy and disrespect of Europe’s
The Government mentioned immigration in the Queen’s Common Fisheries Policy, which has damaged the fishing industry
Speech. I have discussed this matter with the Parliamentary in County Down. However, imagine this scenario”.
Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Torbay This is a real scenario because it comes from the withdrawal
(Kevin Foster), and the hon. Member for Banff and agreement that the Prime Minister has put forward.
Buchan (David Duguid). We need tier 2 visas for fishermen They continue:
and the fishing sector, so that those who keep the boats “A County Down fisherman owns a UK registered trawler. On
going in Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeel can continue 1 January 2021 the trawler sails from”—
to do so. The Minister has indicated that he is willing to
consider that, and we look forward to it happening. Portavogie, Ardglass or—
In the last Session of the previous Parliament, the “Kilkeel. For the next few days it fishes in UK territorial waters in
the Irish Sea. The trawler complies with the rules of the UK’s new
Government appointed a special envoy to tackle the fisheries policy. Its catch is recorded against UK fishing quotas. It
persecution of Christians. I am particularly interested then returns to Kilkeel”—
in that issue, as I know others in the House are, so I
want to ensure that the Government commit to that Ardglass or Portavogie—
again; perhaps the Minister who sums up the debate can “to land and sell its catch entirely within the UK. HOWEVER,
confirm that. one interpretation of the latest Northern Ireland Protocol”—
The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy in the withdrawal agreement—
and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Rochester “is that if this UK registered trawler wants to land its catch in
and Strood (Kelly Tolhurst), who has responsibility for Northern Ireland it will be treated as though it is a trawler from a
retail and the high street, was over in my constituency Third Country and will be required to submit a series of documents
before the election was called. Like my right hon. Friend that although they are not new, are not currently required.”
85 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 86

[Jim Shannon] One of the biggest issues for me on the election trail
was that of health. My right hon. Friend the Member
There will be tariffs on the fish, so when my fishermen for East Antrim referred to the Barnett formula, and
leave Portavogie, go across the harbour and go 1 mile the Government have made a large commitment on this.
out to sea, what happens? They catch the fish, bring I have watched Ministers on TV and heard what they
them back in and they are due tariffs. This agreement, have said, and what was said today is a really good
indirectly or directly, disadvantages my fishermen in commitment to the health sector, and to listening in
Portavogie. They go on: relation to jobs, doctors and hospitals, and some of that
“We accept that in the absence of a Free Trade Deal with the money will come to us in Northern Ireland under the
EU these documents may well be required for exports to the EU, Barnett formula.
but they should not be needed if the catch is destined for our most
important markets in England, Scotland and Wales—all within Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP): I appreciate my
the United Kingdom.
hon. Friend’s point about the crisis we are currently
The Conservative Party manifesto stated, ‘We will ensure that facing in our health sector in Northern Ireland, but
Northern Ireland’s businesses and producers enjoy unfettered major reform is required not just in Northern Ireland
access to the rest of the UK...’ Urgent clarification is needed that
the travesty outlined above will not happen.”
but in the UK to ensure that we are not spending all our
block grant on health and that we are getting a good
On this issue, we need clarification that the fishermen bang for our buck.
will not face the tariffs or the bureaucracy that has been
suggested. It is so important that we do that.
Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention,
Just today, my fishermen in Portavogie in the constituency and he is absolutely right. No matter what happens,
of Strangford have been told, after the new fishing when the money comes across, we need to have a
discussions that took place in Brussels yesterday and Minister in place to ensure that the moneys do go to the
today, that they will face a 50% reduction in our prawn Department of Health where they are needed, and are
catch quota in the Irish sea. I put on record my dismay not swallowed up in the block budget and therefore do
that that is happening, because it will impact greatly on not become as effective as they could be.
those in my constituency who know that the prawn We need to address the issue of appropriate staffing
quota is so important for our fishing sector, our economy pay and working conditions, as well as having acceptable
and the jobs it creates. waiting lists. There are waiting lists for occupational
May I just say this as well, because this is what it therapy referrals, hip replacements or cataract operations.
means? Through the Government’s withdrawal agreement, There are massive numbers of people waiting not just to
not only will the EU be able to reduce our prawn quota be assessed, but to have such operations, so it is really
for our trawlermen and for those who work in the Irish important that we have this in place so that we can serve
sea, but it will be able to continue to do that. We are not the people of Northern Ireland better. I do not blame
just disadvantaged today, but come 31 January, when all our current permanent secretary or his senior civil
the rest of the United Kingdom leaves—Scotland, Wales servants, who are attempting to do the job of running
and England—with free trade, we in Northern Ireland the Department that belongs to an elected representative
will be disadvantaged. The rules that Brussels has imposed and which they have been asked to oversee without the
today on the fishermen of Portavogie, Ardglass and power of the position of a Minister. They are being
Kilkeel in Northern Ireland will be reinforced doubly asked to run the largest Department with one hand
come 31 January. I look to the Government and to the behind their backs, and I believe that that must end.
Minister, and I ask them with all sincerity to look at I spoke to many nurses and families of nurses on the
that. doorsteps in the run-up to and on the day of the
The phrase “special circumstances” does not come election, and they told me that even with the pay rise,
close to answering these questions and the questions the lack of staff on the wards makes their position
raised by many whose trade will be affected by the Irish untenable. We need the Department of Health—this is
sea border that has been threatened. The agri-food a devolved matter in Northern Ireland—to employ
sector in my constituency told me just last Friday—one extra nurses, not to have all the temporary staff they
of the major meat exporters told me a week ago—that have, which is a large cost on the health budget in
the withdrawal agreement the Prime Minister has put in Northern Ireland. I support the Government’s desire to
place will impact greatly on the meat sector. The cost raise staffing levels and to put in additional funding to
will be immense on food travelling east-west and west-east achieve this, but I am asking, in the same way the House
in the meat sector. If we have that, we have a serious believed it appropriate to step in and legislate for abortion
threat to the meat sector in Northern Ireland. Again, I and same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland, that it
ask what has been done to ensure that this does not steps in and legislates for life-and-death matters, and
happen? sorts out the pay scales in the trusts and the pension
We in Northern Ireland, because of the border down issues as a matter of urgency. As I said about the Labour
the Irish sea, will be subject to the possibility of a new amendment in the last Session, if the House and the
VAT regime coming from Europe. We will be subject to Government can rule on this issue, there is a responsibility
that, but the rest of the United Kingdom—Scotland, to continue the interference and to step in for our
England and Wales—will not be. Again, I suggest to hospitals and for our schools.
Ministers, given what is on paper and is there, that what It is very important that we have a system in place
has been put forward disadvantages us in Northern that can respond positively to what is happening on
Ireland greatly in relation to that possibility and also universal credit. I see that the hon. Member for Inverness,
other tax possibilities, with the real focus changing from Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry), who
Westminster towards the EU and towards Dublin. speaks for the Scots Nats on this, has just left the
87 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 88

Chamber, but he and I have the same opinion on this. We now have to earn it. I am delighted, once again, to
Universal credit should be suspended. At the moment, have been elected to represent the glorious sunshine
we have a scheme that disadvantages the people of my coast of Clacton, and I have strong support from my
constituency, and I want to put that on the record. constituents for my work, and the work of this Conservative
People are losing out on four to five weeks of possible Government, who today laid out a comprehensive and
help and of moneys to help them through this process. I progressive policy programme.
am very fortunate to have a very good manageress in During the election, I stood on doorsteps in Clacton
the local social security office, but she cannot work with a simple message: “We must get Brexit done and
miracles with the system she has. I ask the Government then focus on other vital priorities, including even more
to look at this again because it has thrown many into police, better healthcare and infrastructure improvements,
poverty across the whole of the United Kingdom of not to mention education.” Predominantly, the response
Great Britain and Northern Ireland, especially in my I got back was the same. People said, “Yes, those are
constituency. our priorities too. I am so glad that somebody is finally
In Northern Ireland, we are coming to the end of the listening.” We are not just listening, we are acting—indeed,
welfare supplementary payments and the food banks in we have already acted. In Clacton, more than 30 new
Northern Ireland are already oversubscribed. I put on police officers now operate locally, and I am proud that
record my thanks to the Trussell Trust food bank in they were recruited after a campaign I led to increase
Newtownards, which is run through the Thriving Life the police precept in the area.
church. It does a magnificent job, but it tells me that
more and more people are being disadvantaged and are Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I have known my
going to the food bank because of the delays in benefit hon. Friend for 54 years and I have visited his house,
payments. That has to be looked at. which is not in Clacton—I rather like Frinton, but it has
The middle and working classes are about to implode, not been mentioned. I think he should mention Frinton.
without intervention, and in the absence of a functioning
Assembly, this place must do the right thing by Northern Giles Watling: As my constituents know I am a
Ireland and get the ball rolling, starting with health and resident of Frinton, which is part of the glorious Clacton
education funding and decision making. constituency. I am delighted that my hon. Friend has
reminded me where I live.
6.8 pm As we know, hundreds more officers—20,000 in total—
have been promised for every policing area, and I
Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con): It is an honour to understand that Essex Police has already started recruiting
follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), the first wave of new officers. I am delighted that a Bill
and I absolutely agree with him about the Union. The will be introduced to increase policing powers and
Union is important in relation not only to Northern ensure that violent convicts are kept off the streets. We
Ireland, but to Scotland. I would like to reiterate the have had issues in Clacton and I know my constituents
words of the late, great David Bowie, who said, “Scotland, expect no less.
don’t leave us. We love you. Stay with us.”
On healthcare, we have secured a change in management
I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for at four local surgeries where services were woefully
Foyle (Colum Eastwood) on his maiden speech, getting substandard. I thank Ed Garrett, leader of the local clinical
it out of the way so early and with such aplomb—very commissioning group, for his perseverance on that matter.
good work there. I would also like to disagree with my It has been my priority to hold the management to account.
hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Sir David We have done that, and residents will see an improvement
Amess), who said he did not like to campaign in the in another key doorstep issue. The Government have
winter. I loved it. I knocked on many doors—I canvassed provided nearly £15 million for an upgrade at Clacton
for all six weeks—and I got offered cups of tea everywhere Hospital, which is in addition to the £33.9 billion funding
I went. I would like now to apologise to some residents boost for the NHS by 2023-24. It is right to enshrine
of the Clacton constituency that I could not have a cup that key pledge into law, along with the other healthcare
of tea with them all. A man can only take so much tea announcements in this programme.
while walking the streets.
Some £318 million has been set aside by the Government
Only yesterday, I had a chat with a friend who to fund two local infrastructure schemes, including
recently lost his seat on the Opposition Benches. He was a new railway station at Beaulieu, which has been a
very candid, and said that although the result of the pinch-point on our rail lines and held up transport for
election was not what he would have preferred, he is the Clacton community. Clacton is just under 70 miles
happy that the Government now have a serious majority from the great conurbation of London, yet that journey
and can finally get on with delivering an agenda without takes the best part of one hour and 40 minutes. These
more fuss and delay—that was an ex-Labour MP, but I days that is an outrage and it should be improved.
frequently found that attitude on the doorsteps in Clacton. Money will also be spent on the new link road between
People want us to get on with it and deliver on the the A120 and the A133—my hon. Friend the Member
promises made. for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) will
When walking in Clacton, I gained support from agree with me on this, because we worked hard to get
many previous Labour voters; there were people who funding to build that new road. The Conservative party
had voted Labour all their lives, as had their parents manifesto pledges to spend £100 billion on additional
and grandparents, yet this time they gave me their vote. infrastructure spending, which will go on roads and
I am deeply humbled and honoured by the confidence rail. That productive investment will repair and refurbish
placed in me and, like the Prime Minister, I am acutely the fabric of our country, and generate greater growth
aware of the responsibilities placed on me by that support. in the long run.
89 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 90

[Giles Watling] few slogans such as “get Brexit done”, and “oven-ready”
convenience food. We all know that living on oven-ready
On the doorstep, I saw how popular our policies are convenience food is not particularly good for our health,
and—at least in my local experience—that was one but we are where we are. I am sad that we have lost so
of the great differences in this election. We listened to, many good Labour MPs, and our next task is to ensure
and will deliver for, the electorate we have, rather than that people’s jobs, livelihoods and environments, and
the imaginary electorate championed by those on the workers’ rights, are secured in this deal through democratic
Opposition Front Benches. We will deliver pragmatic scrutiny. I fear that that will not happen, that those things
and practical policies for those voters, whereas the will not prevail, and that we will end up with a Brexit
Opposition take them for granted and promise the that will make us all poorer, weaker and more divided.
undeliverable. We will get Brexit done. We cannot continue Given that, it is incumbent on the Government to
to deny the Brexit result. We know that the Prime deliver a Queen’s Speech that counteracts the negative
Minister has achieved a good deal that delivers on the economic impacts of Brexit by making as its centrepiece
result of the referendum and allows us to move on, and a re-engineering of our economy to deliver the white
I for one will be happy to reach a place where we never heat of technology focused on sustainability, given that
have to hear the word “Brexit” again. we have a climate crisis—a new green economic renaissance.
People know that this is a credible Government who Sadly, we did not see that in the Queen’s Speech. We saw
will act on their demands, and in five years our record “get Brexit done”—whatever that means—and, yes, we
will speak for itself—post Brexit. That record of delivery will have some trade deals, but there will be no scrutiny.
starts with this Government programme, although of Instead, we will stand alone, weak against China and
course there is more I want to do, including further weak against the United States, as we turn our back on
improvements in animal welfare, a ban on dog and cat the European market.
meat consumption in this country, making elder abuse a We should have accelerated our ambition to be carbon-
hate crime that carries a tougher sentence, and ensuring neutral by 2050, and put in place a fiscal strategy to
that school funding is spread evenly across the county deliver excellent green technologies and products that
of Essex. would form an export base for a new economy. I welcome
We must care for those who protect us by increasing the fact that we will host the COP26 summit, which will
defence spending, and protect and promote our incredible give us an opportunity to showcase ideas. I very much
“Theatre” offer, which does so much to inform, educate hope that the Budget will focus on fiscal strategies and
and promote the UK internationally. We should also incentives for investment to push that agenda forward.
introduce a differential rate of beer duty between pubs
As the chair of the all-party group on air pollution, I
and supermarkets, after the B-word has been delivered.
welcome the legally binding targets in the Queen’s Speech.
I will bother Ministers greatly about those matters in
The devil, however, will be in the detail. It is important
due course, but for now I recognise that this is a strong
that we meet the World Health Organisation target on
programme that gets Brexit done and delivers on our
particulate matter—the target to reach PM2.5 down
priorities, and I happily support it.
from the 15 micrograms per cubic metre we have in
London now to 10 micrograms per cubic metre by 2030.
6.16 pm
Microparticulates will penetrate unborn babies and we
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): It is a are seeing dreadful public health problems in Britain.
great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Clacton The latest estimate on premature deaths from air pollution
(Giles Watling). The Queen’s Speech introduced by the is approximately 62,000 people a year, at a cost of
right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) stated: £20 billion a year. It is therefore very important that we
“My government’s priority is to secure the best possible deal”, focus on this issue. People doubted much of the economics
and mentioned working with the devolved Administrations in the Labour manifesto, but according to the Royal College
and business. That was then dropped to become, “My of Physicians the cost of air pollution is £20 billion a
priority is to secure a deal by 31 October, do or die”, year. If we saved £3 billion—a fairly modest saving—that
and now we have 31 January. income stream could service, at a 5% interest rate, a
Hon. Members know that we have a different system borrowing of £60 billion to invest in green manufacturing.
for referendums—they are one person, one vote, which We need a transition towards the electrification of all
decided the referendum in 2016—compared with elections our trains and buses sooner rather than later. We need
for constituency MPs. Under the one person, one vote to incentivise, through scrappage schemes, the switchover
system, other than generating a significant Conservative to electric cars for normal consumers. It is unfortunate
majority, this election also generated 16.5 million votes that the roll-out of much of the electric grid is in the
for remain parties, and 14.5 million for leave parties, hands of BP, which has a vested interested in slowing it
which is 2 million fewer. If we consider the number of down in order to sell more petrol and diesel. We need to
parties that do not agree with the deal that is being re-engineer our duties to incentivise people towards a
railroaded through, which includes the Brexit party, sustainable future and for the Government to invest in
that is 18.1 million people who do not agree with the public transport alternatives. There are a lot of technological
deal as it stands. Nevertheless, this deal will be hammered opportunities. Our subsidy focus should move from
through on the basis of an election that was thrust on us fossil fuel to renewable energy—whether wave, wind or
on a cold, dark night, and that disadvantaged poorer solar—and towards the manufacture of associated products.
people who do not have cars and so on.
The election was engineered in such a way because Bob Stewart: Everyone talks about electric cars, but
the Conservatives realised that they could unite the we should also be talking about hydrogen, which is a
smaller pro-Brexit vote, divide the remain vote, secure a very clean fuel. Hydrogen could power cars and trains,
majority, and hammer Brexit through on the back of a too.
91 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 92

Geraint Davies: I completely agree with the hon. can be taken forward, upping our game on the global
Gentleman. Hydrogen is a major part of the mix for the stage so that out of the ashes of Labour’s defeat we can
future in terms of transport. He makes an excellent build a greener future for all.
point. There are opportunities for solar tiles on public
buildings or even roads. New technology can make
6.28 pm
buildings net contributors and help us to move towards
carbon neutrality before 2050. The latest projections Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is a
are that there will be a 1.5° increase in global temperatures pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Swansea West
by 2030, and not 2040 as previously thought. We need (Geraint Davies). I may not agree with everything that
to look again at such ideas as the Swansea Bay tidal he said, but I certainly stand with him on the call for us
lagoon, which was rejected by the Conservative party to do as much as we can to tackle climate change. We
on the grounds that it would have been done through will host a huge event next year and the world will be
the private sector and backed by very expensive private watching. I would love us to be able to be more ambitious
equity loans. This should be public sector investment, on the targets we set for 2050, but that will be for the
with low interest rates over a 120-year timeline, in light Government to decide.
of the fact that 80% of all identified fossil fuels are I repeat the thanks I gave on election night to the
unexploitable if we are to avoid irreversible climate good people of Bournemouth East for returning me to
change. Westminster. I see that my right hon. Friend the Member
The Government need to stop their ambitions in for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) is in his place. It
relation to fracking. Fracking is worse than coal for is an honour to represent the finest seaside town in the
climate change, because methane is 85 times worse than country. For those of us who have endured months—indeed
carbon dioxide for global warming. There has been a years—of political gridlock and political turbulence,
suspension of fracking. I hope that suspension will this new Parliament and new Government see the paralysis
become permanent, because fracking is certainly the replaced by optimism, purpose and vision; an invigorated
wrong thing to do and the wrong signal to send. On Parliament and Government with a clear and decisive
plastics, the Queen’s Speech states that we will stop election result for us to work on. The result reflected a
exporting polluting plastics to non-OECD countries. nation that was tired of parliamentary gridlock, frustrated
We need to do much more than that. We need to stop with Brexit and yearning for strong resolute leadership.
the production of single-use plastic. We need to tax The result also confirmed a rejection of far-left socialism,
plastic to incentivise consumers and producers towards irresponsible public spending, big Government and a
sustainable alternatives. further delay to Brexit. However, after a tough decade,
On NHS funding, the funding targets enshrined in there were also clear calls for increased but responsible
the Queen’s Speech are not high enough. They are not investment in our public services, particularly health
ambitious enough in relation to our European counterparts. and education—this has been reflected in the Queen’s
Those on the Government Front Bench should remember Speech—as well as greater support for councils in tackling
that poverty is a major driver of mental and physical ill housing and homelessness challenges, and more determined
health, so one of the best ways of sorting out the efforts to deal with climate change, as we touched on.
problems of the NHS is to confront the poverty that I believe that the size and manner of this historic win
current Government policies are creating. will see us embark on a new period of British politics.
On the political future we face, I fear that the nature Mercifully, without the threat of another general election,
of politics in Britain will deteriorate. I say that because we will have a Government with a large majority giving
some of our finest public institutions—the BBC, the clarity over Brexit and a fiscal envelope to responsibly
civil service, our universities—are under fundamental increase Government spending. To put it another way,
threat. They hang together and support our fundamental we have the time, the mandate, the energy and the
values of freedom, democracy and human rights. Through aspiration to lead Britain towards a new era of British
frustration, people voted for Brexit, which is rolling patriotism, opportunity and prosperity, allowing the
forward without a clear conclusion. They voted to leave divisions of the nation to begin to heal. If people such
in order to have a future, but if they lose their jobs they as Tony Blair on one side and Michael Heseltine on the
will be very unhappy. other are saying that they have lost the argument and
It is very important that the Government keep their that they recognise that we must move forward, it is
word and reach out from London and the south-east to time for the nation to move forward, too.
rejuvenate other areas, including Wales. I am here to Much has been said about one nation Conservatism,
represent Swansea. The simple fact of the matter is that the political philosophy that stemmed from Disraeli’s
we in Wales make up 5% of the population, have 11% of social mission to improve the lives of all people, not just
the railway, but receive only 1.5% of rail investment. It those from business or privileged backgrounds. It is
takes me three hours to get from London to Swansea. It worth emphasising what that means. It is the military
takes about two hours to get to Manchester. With HS2, equivalent of the higher officer’s intentions—how our
that journey will take about one hour and 10 minutes. individual decisions and missions are knitted together
Investors will ask themselves the question: where am I to give a stronger and greater effect. Our party wins
going to invest? We need our fair share of investment in elections because it is willing to change, advance and
Wales and we need rejuvenation. adapt, while still being anchored to its core values.
I stood on a mandate to remain in the EU, which The adjective “conservative” does not imply that
would be good for Swansea and Wales, but I realise that something is progressive or reforming, but let us go
we are heading towards an imminent Brexit. I also back to what Edmund Burke, one of the founding
stood on a mandate to invest in green technology. I voices of Conservatism, said. He spoke of the need to
hope that a fairer share of investment in a green renaissance reform in order to conserve what is important to us:
93 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 94

[Mr Tobias Ellwood] order, but on the other, we are seeing a rise in populism,
protectionism and isolationism, and a reticence to stand
community bonds and shared values. It is for that up and defend the erosion of the rules-based order.
reason that I was so cheered by the Prime Minister There has been little effort to review the outdated
using his first speech outside No. 10 to thank those who Bretton Woods organisations that have served us well
lent us their support, saying that it would not be taken since the second world war, but which now need reviewing.
for granted. As the geographical footprint of our party We have entered a chapter of real change, with resurgent
changes, so must its attitude, with a commitment to nations, creeping authoritarianism, technological advances
turning that endorsement into longer-term or permanent moving conflict into the cyber-world and space, and
support. climate change pressures leading to mass migration.
I am sure that most Prime Ministers can look back Sadly, terrorism and extremism have also not been
and proudly point to key achievements that may define defeated, as we saw with the London Bridge attacks.
their time in office, but as our great history shows, As the Chief of the Defence Staff touched on in his
occasionally in British politics, a true giant emerges Royal United Services Institute speech this month,
who not only solves the crisis, but reunites the nation technology is providing new ways to conduct political
and invigorates a new sense of purpose and national warfare. Why conduct a kinetic attack when such economic
pride, leading us into a brighter chapter where we can harm can be brought about through the theft of intellectual
hold our heads up high. We saw this with Peel, Disraeli property, cyber-attacks, satellite disruption or information
and Churchill, and I believe that the stage is set for and propaganda operations, such as election interference?
something potentially very big now: a new era of one It is right that we conduct a full defence and foreign
nation Conservatism. That is not a repeat, a rehash, or a policy review. I have long called for a grand Government
play on previous moulds. It is not simply a soundbite to strategy that better co-ordinates our international-facing
mollify a wing of the party—it is a tailored political Ministries—perhaps under the leadership of a deputy
philosophy relevant for today. Prime Minister who co-ordinates the Foreign and
The phrase “one nation” is used a lot—it has been Commonwealth Office, the Ministry of Defence, the
used today and it was used during the campaign. Given Department for International Development and our
that it will form the backbone to strategy and policy trade Ministries—to truly leverage and co-ordinate our
thinking and to the implementation of the Gracious respected soft and hard power and our status as a
Speech, I would like to add some detail. First, it is about country, traditionally with the ability and the desire to
someone’s belief in a sense of duty to better themselves shape the world as a force for good.
and support themselves, their family, their community I do not apologise for repeating what I have said
and their nation, with a Government promoting life many times in this House: our defence posture matters
chances and choice, wherever and whoever someone is. and we must invest more in our armed forces. I hope
Secondly, it is a belief in business, where hard work is that the review will praise the professionalism of our
rewarded. Economic liberalism is the best vehicle for brave service personnel, but 2% is not enough. It is the
prosperity. Encouraging the entrepreneurial and NATO minimum. We do not strive to have the minimum
generational growth is what one nation Conservativism or the average—we strive to lead. We cannot do that on
is about. There are consequences for indolence, but we just 2%, but I agree that the review should include
support those who may stumble or require help, through procurement. Our Storm Shadow missile, for example,
no fault of their own, and we temper excessive greed. has a stand-off range of 250 km—it is our most potent
Thirdly, it is about fiscal responsibility. We invest in air-to-ground weapon—yet we insist that it is fired only
public services and infrastructure, but we do so wisely. from a $100-million stealth fighter, when in some
We identify and tackle inequality, but we are dependable circumstances, such as over Afghanistan, a propeller
in managing the nation’s finances. Fourthly, it is about a aircraft costing one fifth of the price could do exactly
belief in strong but small government—the rule of law the same job.
with empowered localism and a strong and engaged I encourage the security review to look at the long
society. Finally, it is about active global leadership—a term, at what is coming over the horizon. I mention
nation able not only to defend itself, but to stand up and China directly; in our lifetime, it will overtake the
defend our interests abroad. That is why we participate United States as the world’s single dominant power.
actively in NATO, stay close to the United States and This year alone—indeed, in every year over the last five
invest in overseas aid. years—its navy has grown by the size of our navy. Its air
We would be naive to think, however, that the time force is moving into fifth-generation capability and it
that we have spent debating Brexit has not impacted on has the largest army in the world. In our lifetime, the
that global reputation. We have some work to do to RMB is likely to challenge the dollar as the global
re-engage, so I am pleased to see in the Queen’s Speech reserve currency. The BeiDou constellation of satellites
a commitment will also challenge GPS, in terms of being used by other
nations, and the China club of nations that are indebted
“to promote and expand the United Kingdom’s influence in the
world”. to China grows every year.
As the first line of the security review in 2015 reminded In 2000, global debt to China was just $500 billion.
us: Today it is $5 trillion, $1.3 trillion of which is from the
United States. Left unchecked, the trajectory of China’s
“Our national security depends on our economic security, and technological, economic and military capabilities will
vice versa.” extend far beyond the accepted norms of currently
We face an increasingly unpredictable and unstable recognised international standards. Chinese tech giants
world. On the one hand, threats are becoming more such as Alibaba, Tencent and Huawei are able to operate
diverse and complex, eroding the international rules-based in this country, but our equivalents, Apple, Facebook,
95 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 96

eBay and so forth, cannot operate in the same circumstances be further unpredictability for business and economic
in China. Those companies are state-funded and are uncertainty and increased hardship for the poorest and
moving ahead technologically faster than any of ours. most vulnerable members of our society.
We need to avoid the dangerous, bipolar world that we The Bills outlined today do not seek to build a new
are heading towards. caring, sharing socio-economic consensus or to earn
There is a huge opportunity for leadership and a the trust of voters in the north of England who might
vacuum to be filled not just in Britain but on the have lent their votes to the Prime Minister’s party.
international stage. We need to think carefully in post-Brexit Hidden behind the rhetoric and the spin is a hard-right
Britain about how we define ourselves militarily, politically reborn Thatcherite ideology that wants to strip back the
and economically and how we upgrade the Whitehall functions of the state, liberalise the economy at the
machine to advance, modernise and improve our statecraft. expense of workers’ and environmental protections, sell
As the Prime Minister said, we are seeing a realignment off the NHS in a Trump trade deal and scrap whatever
of British politics and of the Conservative party as we vestiges of democratic accountability are left in the
have ventured into territory long seen as Labour UK’s unwritten constitution—including, it seems, the
strongholds. The opportunity for our party and this Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. Whatever its flaws,
Government to rise to the occasion and take us forward the power to hold snap elections should not rest with
as a modern, fiscally responsible and progressive one the prerogative of the Prime Minister and the standard
nation party is one that we will not see again for a long length of terms must be defined in legislation.
time. I hope that we can present an optimistic, inclusive Of course, half of the laws outlined today will be
agenda, replace division with unity, lead the nation subject to the English votes for English laws procedure.
forward and again be a force for good on the international We hear about the great one nation Government, and
stage. they are governing for one nation in at least half of the
Bills that they are proposing. The Governments much
6.41 pm reduced number of Scottish MPs and the incredibly
reduced number of Scottish MPs from the other Unionist
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I have a wee parties will not have very much to do. The EVEL
sense of déjà vu, Mr Deputy Speaker, because in the last process is a complete waste of time and should be
Queen’s Speech debate I spoke immediately after the scrapped immediately.
right hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood).
By the luck of the draw, here we are again. He raises The Conservatives may have won in parts of the UK
important points about the state of the modern world. where they have never won before, but Scotland wants
None of his arguments seems to me to be a very no part of this. The agenda presented in the Tory
compelling case for pulling away from one of the biggest manifesto and in today’s Queen’s Speech has been
and most successful international unions in the shape of comprehensively rejected by voters in Scotland. I am
the European Union, which the Conservative party is proud to have been re-elected in the constituency with
now determined to do. That, I suppose, will define the highest share of the remain vote in Scotland in the
much of the debate in the coming days and weeks. 2016 referendum, which also had the fifth highest in the
whole of the United Kingdom. That determination
Let me start by congratulating all new and returning to protect Scotland’s right to remain a member of the
Members, particularly those who have arrived in increased European Union has been reinforced by the result last
numbers on the Scottish National party Benches. In Thursday, and that must also mean the right to decide a
particular, I want to pay tribute to my friend Stephen different future for our country, a future that could
Gethins, who was not successful in holding North East deliver the vision outlined in our manifesto and in the
Fife but who still has very much to contribute to Scotland alternative Queen’s Speech that the SNP has published
before and after we achieve our independence. today. That is an open, welcoming and inclusive vision
Today is a day of great constitutional importance. A of a country that plays its part in meeting the highest
woman with a significant constitutional role has outlined global ambitions to tackle the climate emergency, that
a vision for the future of her country, and the Scottish provides not just refuge but jobs and livelihoods for
Parliament has endorsed that by passing the Referendums those fleeing war and famine elsewhere, and that wants
(Scotland) Bill, supported by the First Minister of everyone who can contribute to our society to make
Scotland, by 68 votes to 54. It is funny, because we have their home here. It is of a country that meets its
had this coincidence of Queen’s Speeches on days of commitments to international aid and delivers them
important constitutional significance up in Scotland through a dedicated Government Department, which also
several times now. Each time, it demonstrates the contrast seems to be at risk in this Queen’s Speech.
between the narrow, backward vision of the Conservative In Glasgow North over the past six weeks, people on
Governments and the progressive, outward view of the the doorsteps said time and time again that they wanted
Scottish Government. to stay in the European Union. They also wanted an
This is the second Queen’s Speech in three months end to the misery of the last nine years of Tory rule.
and the third election in four years. I think that Black They were inspired by the SNP’s commitments to a
Rod must be breaking records for the amount of time proper step change in NHS funding, to building a social
that she is spending walking up and down the corridor. security system based on dignity and respect, and to
However, just because the Conservatives have secured a releasing funds for many such vital public services by
stable majority of seats in England and Wales, that does scrapping the abomination of nuclear weapons on our
not mean that there is not chaos ahead. We may now shores. If this Tory Government refuse to listen and
have a battering ram Parliament through which the ignore Scotland as so many UK Governments of whatever
Tories think they can push through any policy they colour have done over the years, they do so at their own
please, but the effect outside this place will undoubtedly peril.
97 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 98

[Patrick Grady] soon Scotland’s future will be back in Scotland’s hands,

and we will continue our work, as we always do, towards
Throughout my lifetime, the result of the general those early days of a better nation.
election in Scotland has not affected the result across
the UK. The Prime Minister has always been chosen by
voters in England and Wales. Until 2015, however, the 6.50 pm
majority party elected in Scotland to Westminster was,
for whatever reason, committed to itself one day being Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con):
part of a Government of the United Kingdom. Although I rise to support the humble address. It is a pleasure to
there was a stark democratic deficit, which led to the see you in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, but let me
campaign for and creation of Scotland’s devolved also say that it is a particular pleasure to see the new
Parliament, it was fair to say that the majority was bound Speaker in the Chair—a proper Speaker who, while he
to accept the UK result. Since 2015 however, the majority may suffer from the disadvantages of not being a
of Members returned to this place by constituencies in Yorkshireman, is a man who has strong and many
Scotland have a different view. We believe that if the opinions but does not feel compelled to inflict them on
United Kingdom cannot and will not deliver on the the Chamber and the country, in contrast to his predecessor.
priorities of our constituents, we must have the opportunity We look forward to many years of fair adjudication of
to choose an alternative path. debates in the House.
There are no Liberal Democrats here, but they were The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady)
complaining earlier about proportional representation. began his speech by talking about déjà vu. I fear that
They were in government with this lot for five years and every time a member of the Scottish National party
they completely failed to deliver on that pledge so they rises to speak, it is déjà vu all over again. Earlier today
cannot complain now when the system works against the leader of the hon. Gentleman’s party, the right hon.
them— Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford),
in true BBC Christmas repeat fashion, came out with
Mr Ellwood: We had a referendum. the same old speech—to which many of us have had to
listen for the last few years—about Scotland being
Patrick Grady: Which, incidentally, voters in my part dragged out of the EU. Well, for goodness’ sake let us
of the world supported. have something new. The fact is that, as we all know, the
Our belief has been reinforced by the mandate we United Kingdom voted to come out of the European
have won in this election. I am immensely grateful and Union and that decision was upheld in the recent general
hugely privileged to have been elected to represent election in the whole United Kingdom, of which Scotland
Glasgow North once again. I accept that not all voters is a component.
will agree with everything I have said today, and we all It was a particular pleasure to listen to my hon.
have a responsibility to listen to, respect and act on Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey
behalf those who did not support the majority party, Crouch), who proposed the motion for a Humble Address.
but if that applies in constituencies it must apply to the Let me say for the benefit of those who could not see
Government as well. If the Conservatives are so convinced that she did so barefoot. As a founding member of the
of the case for their precious Union, what do they have all-party parliamentary group on mindfulness, which I
to be afraid of ? The United Kingdom that people voted hope to have the privilege to chair when it is reconstituted,
to be part of in 2014 has already fundamentally and she said that using mindfulness techniques and anchoring
materially changed, and by 31 January it will definitively herself to the floor gave her great confidence, and she
no longer exist if the Government achieve Brexit. demonstrated that with aplomb in her excellent speech.
We heard from the Government, the Prime Minister Let me recommend to those who are still feeling stressed
and, indeed, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth by the result of the election the mindfulness classes
East about this one nation Government, but what nation which are available to all Members at 5.30 pm on
is that? The Prime Minister is supposed to be the Prime Tuesdays. So far, some 240 Members of both Houses
Minister of a United Kingdom made up of four distinct have taken advantage of them, and that has certainly
constituent territories each with their own traditions improved the standard of debate in both Chambers. Let
and experiences of nationhood. If he wants to govern in me also compliment my hon. Friend the Member for
the interest of just one nation, that is up to him. It is a Walsall North (Eddie Hughes)—who is the embodiment
small, isolationist and reactionary vision harking back of the cheeky chappie—on the excellent way in which he
to an imperial glory that never really existed in the first seconded the motion.
place. Scotland’s vision is internationalist. Our independence In many respects, this is the easiest Queen’s Speech to
is defined by our interdependence on the global family which to respond on the first day, just hours after its
of nations and institutions, of the United Nations and delivery in the other place. We did, after all, have a dry
the European Union. The real separatists are the people run for it on 14 October, although today’s turned out to
who want to take us out of those institutions and to be a fuller-fact version. The 22 Bills that were promised
reduce our commitments to tackling global challenges, back in October have now become 40. This is certainly
move us out of alignment with the highest agreed no longer a wish list; it is now a comprehensive and
standards on social wellbeing and the environment, and substantial programme for government. I am therefore
ignore rulings of the United Nations General Assembly pleased to get in early, ahead of the, no doubt, Cook’s
and the International Court of Justice on the Chagos Tour of maiden speeches that will be made in subsequent
islands, for example. days and weeks by the plethora of Members who have
As I said earlier, and as I said at the SEC Centre in just been elected to seats around the United Kingdom—
Glasgow last Thursday, Scotland wants no part of that. mostly, I am glad to say, on this side of the House.
Whether the Prime Minister likes it or not, one day I wish them all well.
99 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 100

We also approach this Queen’s Speech on the basis of amend the regulations to get rid of furry letterboxes.
the strong likelihood that we might actually get it passed. They are a cancer on our society, whether you are a
What a joy it is—and I aim this particularly at new volunteer delivering leaflets, a political activist, or a
Members—that at last, for the first time in the 22 and a professional postman or postwoman. If the Government
half years that I have spent in the House along with the will not do that, I will present a private Member’s Bill
new Speaker, we have a strong and stable Government and we will see how well that does.
with a decent majority and, ostensibly, support from all
Conservative MPs on the same side. Long may that Bob Stewart: It is not the furry stuff but the guillotine
continue. behind it that really does your knuckles in.
Let me say to those new Members, “You’ve got it
easy.” The last couple of years and, in particular, the Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir George Howarth): Order.
last 12 months in this place have been hugely stressful Fascinating and relevant though this topic is, I hope
and exasperating, not knowing when you get up in the that the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham
morning what will happen in Parliament that day—whether (Tim Loughton) is not going to embark on a whole
the Government will win votes or not, or whether they debate on the positioning of letterboxes. I do not think
will be tied—and not being able to make plans, with the that there was any mention of it in the Queen’s Speech.
possibility of the House having to sit on Saturdays. We
have all been prepared to do that, but the unpredictability Tim Loughton: That is why I am going to move on
has made nursing a constituency, and the other very quickly, Mr Deputy Speaker.
responsibilities that we all have as Members, somewhat Another measure was absent from the Queen’s Speech.
more challenging, and throughout that time a Speaker I am making no reference to the current Speaker, but we
was making up the rules and rewriting the discussion as need to change the procedures in the House so that we
he went along. have a way of sacking a dud Speaker. We did not have
No more, Mr Deputy Speaker. This Administration that in the last Parliament, and I moot it now as
will get on with the job of being in power and in something that the Procedure Committee may wish to
government, and implementing a programme of the consider.
people’s priorities. That is going to happen, which is a I am particularly pleased with the big emphasis in the
real joy and pleasure for those of us who have seen the Queen’s Speech on the climate emergency. The Environment
ups and downs of a Parliament that has not been at its Bill that was published just before the election was an
best in recent years. excellent and comprehensive piece of work, and there
On Saturday, when I conducted one of my regular are many ways of improving it. Whatever people might
Saturday morning street surgeries, the sense of relief say, the Conservatives have terrific green credentials,
among my constituents was palpable. Whether they had including our being the first country to have a legally
voted for Brexit or remain, people wanted certainty, enforceable target on net zero carbon emissions. Although
clarity and a way forward out of the maelstrom and 2050 is too far away—I have no doubt that as technology
gridlock that this place had become over recent months. develops, we will be able to bring the date forward—the
However, there was one rather sad exception. In response fact that we have that target and are determined to see it
to the general election result, the Momentum zealots through is great credit to a Conservative Government.
who form the local Labour party and its councillors
tweeted the contact details of the Samaritans, on the Renewable energy sources now account for just under
basis that people would be feeling depressed and driven 39% of our electricity generation—up from 6% in 2010.
to mental illness. That was crass, disgusting and inappropriate. Onshore wind accounted for just 7.5 terawatts an hour
in 2010, but the figure is now 30.5. The £5.8 billion that
As for what we need in this country, a piece of advice we put into the international climate fund shows us
was given to me in 2001, after the second Blair landslide, taking responsibility towards the climate emergency
by a local Labour councillor whom I respected greatly. internationally, and not confining our actions to the
He said to me, “Tim, you need to be a good, strong boundaries of our country.
Opposition”, and he was right. In this House we need a
good, strong Opposition, so I take no delight in the We should be proud of the action that we are taking
current problems with the Labour party. For the functioning and will continue to take on plastics, and on the protection
of democracy in this country, we need a good—and for the 4 million sq km of ocean within the British
moderate—strong Opposition. That keeps a good overseas territories. We will build on all that in the new
Government on their toes, and I hope that it emerges in environment Bill, which will put environmental principles
the months to come. I am afraid that the current in legislation and create legally enforceable targets. It
Momentum-hijacked Labour party is not that strong will establish a world-leading environmental watchdog
Opposition, and I hope that it sorts itself out as soon as in the office of environmental protection, which will
possible. include climate change. It will also set out plans to
A measure in the Queen’s Speech that I particularly enhance the drive from Government, public organisations
welcome is the plan to abolish the Fixed-term Parliaments and private business to deliver environmental improvements
Act 2011. One view that united all the candidates and sustainable growth. It will enshrine the “polluter
throughout the election, certainly in my constituency, pays” principle. It is important that we have extended
was that December elections suck. I am sure that we all producer responsibility schemes, so that those who use
spent the last five to six weeks constantly damp and packaging and sell products in it are responsible for its
constantly frozen, frustrated by our attempts to push sustainable disposal, recycling or reuse.
soggy leaflets through those terrible letterboxes with the The measures in the Bill to restore or create wildlife-rich
brushes. I recall that last year the Government agreed to habitats to enable wildlife to recover and thrive are also
amend the building regulations to get rid of floor-level important, as are the targets and legal action on air
letterboxes, and it should now be a priority for them to pollution. We should be very proud of those.
101 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 102

[Tim Loughton] This year, some 32,000 children will go into care. I
have a long-standing interest in that and I have declared
Measures on the NHS have been much mentioned. it in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. We
Extra spending will be enshrined in law in the hope that must do much better for children who go into the care
we can at last stop using the NHS as a political football. system. I do not know whether the figure of 32,000 is
In every election in which I have stood, as sure as eggs too high or too low. We must ensure that the right
are eggs, we are told, “There are two weeks to save the children go into care, that their life chances are improved
national health service” or, “There’s a week to stop the while they are there, and that they get a second chance
wicked Tories selling off the national health service”. at a good, stable and loving upbringing in those vulnerable
Why would we want to? We have the best national early years.
health service in the world. It is one of the things we are I welcome the reference in the Queen’s Speech to
most proud of and famous for. Why would we want to levelling up school funding. It was announced in the
do a deal with the United States that meant paying autumn statement and it was the biggest issue for me in
more rather than less for drugs? That nonsense must the election campaign and, indeed, in the previous one.
stop. Every school in my constituency, and in every constituency,
I am pleased that we have the best hospital in the will receive an increase in per pupil funding next year.
world in my constituency. Worthing Hospital was rated In one primary school in my constituency, the rise will
outstanding in all five criteria; better than any other be 8.2%. Those are real increases, to the sort of levels
acute hospital in the country, yet 12 years ago, the last that heads told me they needed. They will now get
Labour Government tried to downgrade it. Let us not them. We need to ensure that a rise in standards and
forget that the Labour Government and their fascination outcomes accompanies that additional funding so that
with keeping debt off the balance sheet saddled the no child, whatever their background, is left behind.
NHS with £18 billion of debt, with at least one hospital We must also stop what I call the apartheid between
trust spending a sixth of its annual income servicing the those who go to university and everybody else. Many
private finance initiative debt for years to come. Let us people go to university for whom it is not the most
therefore stop using the NHS as a political football. appropriate route. There are vocational and other courses
I hope we will work together on adult social care to that would be more appropriate, but for too many
find solutions that work for all our constituents. An schools, if the pupils do not go to university, they are
ageing population means that the health challenges will the also-rans. That is the wrong attitude and culture. We
be greater and more complex in future. need to change that mindset and reboot the apprenticeship
I welcome the announcement of recruiting and retaining programme that did so well in the coalition Government
the additional 50,000 nurses. We also need incentives to years. We should restore funding and improve the standards
get more medical students coming out of medical school and range of opportunities available in our further
to go into general practice. That is a particular problem education colleges. For example, Worthing College is
in the south-east of England, where the money is there, outstanding. It is well managed and has some fantastic
but we cannot find the GPs to take up the positions. outcomes for our young people, but I want more of
We must do more about mental health, particularly them to benefit from the opportunities there.
with child and adolescent mental health services. I am I particularly welcome the Bill to prevent vexatious
therefore pleased with the references to mental health in prosecutions of veterans. We expect and receive remarkable
the Queen’s Speech. As someone who has chaired a service from our servicemen and women. We put them
perinatal mental health charity and the 1001 critical in danger—on the frontline in times in conflict—and
days all-party group, I know that we must do much they are always there for us in times of turmoil and
more earlier for the mental health of parents and young natural disaster. The least we can do is protect them and
children. One in six women in this country will suffer keep them safe from the frontline of vexatious litigation.
from some form of perinatal mental illness. There is a I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister
99% likelihood that the mothers of 15 or 16-year-olds for Defence People and Veterans, who has championed
in this country who have mental health issues suffered that cause along with others in the House.
from some form of depression or mental illness during I welcome the return of the Domestic Abuse Bill. I
pregnancy. We should concentrate more of our resources pay tribute to the former Prime Minister, my right hon.
on preventing mental illness, which undermines the Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) for
important bond of attachment between a parent and a championing that cause. We need to ensure that the
child in those crucial early years. measure goes through at speed and does what it says on
We must ensure that more of our children are school the tin.
ready. I hope that some of the extra investment in the I welcome the Employment (Allocation of Tips) Bill.
NHS will be used for our health visitors. As I said in a Lower paid staff have suffered from being ripped off for
debate before the election, we had a great record under too long.
the Cameron coalition Government. Health visitors
detect the early warning signs of things going wrong Hon. Members also mentioned our record on animal
between parents and children. They are there to give welfare. The Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Bill will reinforce
help and support. the fact that we respect animals in this country and that
I welcome the reference in the Queen’s Speech to the people who are cruel to animals deserve to be called out
troubled families programme. It has been tremendous and punished properly for it.
and should be continued and expanded. There should I also appreciated the reference to human rights and
also be a pre-troubled families programme, which is applied sanctions in Her Majesty’s speech. As a former chairman
preventively to families before they get into the difficulties of the all-party parliamentary group for Tibet, I suggest
that the troubled families programme deals with. that that must include calling out China. The death of
103 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 104

some 1 million Tibetans at the hands of the Chinese Bercow was somebody who jealously guarded the rights
since the invasion in 1959 is still not properly recognised. of Back Benchers and more junior Members in this
Now, there are more than 1 million Uighurs in supposed House to hold the Government to account, whether
re-education camps. The abuse of human rights in that they were on the Government Benches or the Opposition
country continues to be appalling. The Chinese ambassador Benches.
to the United Kingdom continues to refuse to come to If you will indulge me, Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to
this House to meet members of the all-party parliamentary make brief mention of some colleagues who are not
group for Tibet to discuss our concerns over what is here today. Some from my own region include Nic
happening in China. The environmental catastrophe Dakin, who loyally represented Scunthorpe, Melanie
that is taking place in the Tibetan plateau, which is Onn who represented Great Grimsby, Caroline Flint,
responsible for servicing the water supply of about a who was a great colleague and a loyal servant to this
quarter of the world’s population, is deeply worrying. House and her constituents, and Paula Sherriff. There
China needs to be called out and held to account on a are too many to mention all of them, but I just want
human rights level and on an environmental vandalism briefly to say that I have rarely spoken in this House
level, and I hope that the words in the Queen’s Speech without having the privilege of looking over to the
will be translated into action. Bench there and seeing the Beast of Bolsover. I have
Can I just put in a plea for the south as well? known Dennis Skinner since I was a young child and I
Rightfully, there are many promises and plans for investment remember him fondly. He shared a flat with my predecessor,
in infrastructure in the north of England, and I very John Prescott, who I am glad to say is recovering from a
much applaud that, but the A27 is the most crowded period of ill health; he is doing well. This House will
and congested road in Sussex at the moment, and we miss the likes of Dennis Skinner, and it would have been
need the upgrade to the A27 between Worthing and remiss of me not to pay tribute to him in this way.
Shoreham that was recognised in the previous roads I welcome some of the things in the Humble Address,
plan but has still not materialised. some of which were taken directly from the Labour
May I end on one thing that is not in the Queen’s party’s socialist manifesto. However, those people in
Speech? It is an issue that featured rather disgracefully east Hull who lent their vote to the Conservatives did
during the election campaign, and it is that of the not give the Government permission to flog off our
so-called WASPI women. Many on this side and, of NHS to Donald Trump’s America. Nor did they give
course, on the other side have championed the case of their permission for environmental standards and consumer
the 1950s pension women who were hit disproportionately protections to be thrown away in the withdrawal agreement.
by those changes in the pension age under previous They did not give the Government permission to
Governments. Many of us have been lobbying the deliberately and savagely erode their hard-fought and
Government to acknowledge that disproportionate hard-won employment rights. It is clear from the Queen’s
disadvantage and to do something about it. I will call Speech that the Government intend fully to take away
on the Government again and, working with my co-chair the employment rights of those hard-working people in
of the all-party group on state pension inequality for my constituency.
women, we will continue to put pressure on the Government
to acknowledge that and do something about it. The There has also been mention of facilitating a situation
Labour Opposition’s uncosted promise of £58 billion, whereby transport workers will be prevented from taking
which did not appear in their manifesto, disgracefully strike action. I declare an interest as a loyal member of
raised false hopes in vulnerable women. That amount the Rail, Maritime and Transport parliamentary group
was almost half the NHS budget, and it was never in this House. People who get up in the morning and go
going to happen. I do hope that we can come up with a to work do not need fewer rights in the workplace. They
realistic, deliverable, doable offer for those women who need better, stronger rights in the workplace and, my
have suffered and are suffering disproportionately, because word, they are really going to need them as we move
that is the right thing to do. forward with this particular Government. It was a real
shame that this Government did not address the social
This is a comprehensive programme for government injustices in east Hull. People who get up in the morning,
for the next four to five years, and I very much support get on a bike, pedal to their place of work and work
it. This is the programme of an ambitious and progressive hard for very long hours tell me regularly in my surgeries
one nation Conservative Government, of which I am that they often resort to using food banks. It is true not
proud to be a supporter. It is a programme to take the just in east Hull but across the country that there are
United Kingdom forward after these last few dark years more food banks than there are McDonald’s restaurants.
of gridlock and division. It is a programme for an When I was elected in 2010, that simply was not the
optimistic and bright future, and I very much hope that situation. It simply was not true, but it is now.
this House rallies behind these measures, because that is
the right thing to do for the whole of the United What the Government have not done in this Queen’s
Kingdom. Speech is address the issues that concern people in my
constituency. They include the bedroom tax, which is
incredibly unfair and affects the most vulnerable people
7.13 pm
in my constituency the hardest. The Government have
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): It is a not addressed the unfairness of universal credit, or the
real honour to be called in this important Queen’s fact that people are still really struggling to navigate
Speech debate, and it is a pleasure to follow the hon. that new system of welfare. They did not address an
Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). awful lot of things in the Queen’s Speech. It is true that
I agreed with some of what he said, but there was an people in my constituency lent their vote to the
awful lot that I disagreed with entirely, not least the Conservatives on this occasion, but they will not make
mention he made of the former Speaker. For me, John that mistake again because the proof of the pudding is
105 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 106

[Karl Turner] hon. Friend the Prime Minister. The election decided
how we are going to leave the EU, as set out in our
in the eating, and we know from this Queen’s Speech manifesto.
that it is going to get a lot worse for people who live in Incidentally, we are leaving with a deal. It is quite
east Hull. I am here to defend and work hard to protect extraordinary that a narrative is developing that we will
those vulnerable people, and I promise my constituents somehow leave without a deal in a year’s time. We might
in east Hull that I will be doing that at every single leave without a free trade agreement, and the Prime
opportunity I get. Minister has made it absolutely clear that we are leaving
at the end of 2020 come what may, but that puts us in a
7.19 pm far stronger negotiating position than we would be in if
our hands were still being cuffed by a House of Commons
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): determined to inflict defeat on the Government at any
I could not find the result as I listened to the closing cost and to subvert the referendum result and the election
remarks of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull result. We are now in a position to negotiate more
East (Karl Turner), but I think the Brexit Party received effectively than we have ever negotiated before and,
substantially more votes than the margin of his with the experience of the previous negotiation, is it not
majority—do correct me if I am wrong—so he was apparent that there has been a sea change in the attitude
saved, if you like, by a split in the Brexit vote. I hope of the other members of the European Union? They
that he will reflect on how little his voters respected the want to get this done. They are not against free trade.
Labour party’s position on Brexit. They are not in favour of protection for its own sake.
Mr Deputy Speaker, I congratulate you on your They are not in favour of inflicting some kind of
sudden elevation, and may I also congratulate Mr Speaker vengeance Brexit on the United Kingdom. They will
on his election? I also congratulate the Prime Minister want their exporters to benefit just as much as our
not just on achieving a stunning outturn to a difficult exporters will benefit, and we are in a strong position to
election, but on striking such a sensible and moderate achieve that.
tone at the moment of victory. He humbly accepted the In this election, people also voted for this rather
responsibility, and his comments were far from the mobile concept of “one nation”. Actually, one nation,
triumphalism that he might have indulged in and that, as somebody recently reminded me, was a term coined
in fact, is not part of his character. not by Disraeli but by Baldwin. Disraeli talked about
the two nations—the rich and the poor—but Baldwin
There has been much speculation about the long-term fused it into a political philosophy about forging one
significance of this result. Is 2019 going to be like a nation, so that the divide does not exist. My right hon.
1945, 1979 or 1997 watershed? It is far too soon to be Friend was right to emphasise that that has always been
certain about that, but it is rightly the Government’s the role of successful Conservative Governments. In fact,
ambition to make it a watershed by changing the nature poverty has generally declined under the Conservatives,
of the Conservative party, with its new intake and the and inequality tends to increase under Labour
new constituencies that we represent, ensuring that we Governments, because they try to tax people too much
deliver in constituencies that have not been represented and, in the end, the taxes fall on those least able to pay.
by the Conservative party for a very long time, if ever.
This election result was not about those who made
It is certain, however, that this is a watershed moment the biggest promises. If the party that won the election
in our relationship with the European Union. I still was always the one that made the biggest promises, we
hear among many of the comments a reluctance, perhaps, would never win an election. The fact is that some of
from the Opposition parties to accept this, but the the Labour party’s promises, as my hon. Friend the
election result represents a substantial consolidation of Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton)
what was decided in the referendum. Incidentally, the was saying earlier, were irresponsible. They were not
effect of leaving the European Union will be far less credible, and they looked cynical. Those kinds of promises
about economic and social matters. It is far more significant do not work. People vote for a track record. There has
in terms of its political and constitutional intent. It is never been a Labour Government that did not leave
about the intent of the British people and a signal of office with a higher rate of unemployment than they
our national determination to be a self-confident country, inherited from their Conservative predecessors. That is
to take control of our own affairs, to make our own a fact, and people remember that. The election reflected
laws, and to navigate our own way in the world, as the the fact that common sense prevailed over the temptation
sixth largest economy in the world is perfectly capable to allow extravagance that the nation could not afford
of doing. Yes, there will be problems of transition, but and over a continuation of the institution-breaking
most countries are not in the EU and they are absolutely paralysis that a hung Parliament had inflicted on the
fine. We will find our way out of the European Union Government at this particular juncture in our history.
probably in a manner that most people in this country This election result is a defeat for the idea that we
will not even notice in terms of immediate policy effects, should somehow move to a more proportional voting
but they will understand that they voted for us to be a system. The advantage of our voting system is that it
self-governing nation. distils a decision so that hung Parliaments are rare. This
The election converted the direct mandate of the election demonstrated that the nation does not like
2016 vote to leave into a clear representative mandate, hung Parliaments. It likes decisive government. The
and that was always going to have to happen, because nightmare possibility of a continuing state of paralysis
direct democracy does not sit comfortably in our system encouraged people to vote tactically and make a judgment
of representative government. This election represented about how they wanted the political deadlock to be
that transition: not just to leave the EU in principle, but broken. They did not want it to be left to a lot of
a mandate to deliver the deal negotiated by my right politicians on lists filling smoke-filled rooms and stitching
107 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 108

things up for themselves. It was not just that period of were becoming very jaundiced about Parliament as an
government that was unpopular, because the coalition institution, and this majority Government is an opportunity
between 2010 and 2015 turned out not to be very for all sides to recognise what the rules are and to make
popular in the end. this place work for the benefit of our constituents,
I welcome the Gracious Speech. The withdrawal whether we are in opposition or in government.
agreement represents a compromise Brexit, which we I also welcome the emphasis on the national health
now all must live with, and all can do so because it is a service in Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech. I was at a
good compromise. There has been much speculation roundtable at Conservative conference a couple of years
about the European Research Group, which I do emphasise ago to discuss the staffing crisis in the NHS—this was
is primarily a research group, and about whether we before the staffing crisis had moved up the political
should rename ourselves the “manifesto support group” agenda—and I asked who is accountable for workforce
because we are not at loggerheads with the Prime Minister. planning in the NHS. A variety of opinions came from
We are not holding him to ransom. We supported his the various professional bodies around the table and,
deal before the election. It was remainers who were actually, some of us persuaded the Secretary of State
trying to destroy his Government before the election, for Health and Social Care that he should make himself
and they will now hopefully lay down their arms and accountable.
sue for peace, because this has been resolved. That is We then got an interim people plan for NHS England
what our voters expect. that was extraordinarily thin on numbers and analysis,
I am just as interested in the proposals in this Queen’s so I welcome the breakthrough into numbers that appeared
Speech for a constitution, democracy and rights in our manifesto. I am a little sceptical about how easy
commission, which will have a large agenda after a it will be to achieve 50,000 more nurses, and I immediately
period of constitutional strain in which so many of the pressed the Secretary of State to explain exactly what
norms and conventions of our constitutional settlement 50,000 more nurses means and how it will be achieved.
were just simply thrown aside in the battle over Brexit. That is yet to be fleshed out in hard policy detail, but
The Select Committee on Public Administration and we have set ourselves the challenge and we have to
Constitutional Affairs, which I chaired before the election, deliver it.
has looked at electoral law, the Fixed-term Parliaments
Karl Turner: It is made up.
Act 2011, the role of the Electoral Commission—maybe
we should look more at that role—constituency boundaries, Sir Bernard Jenkin: No, I promise that it is not made
the royal prerogative and the Supreme Court judgment, up, but it would be fair to say that a great deal of work
alongside the nature of our civil service. I am pleased needs to be delivered to make it happen, and it may well
the Prime Minister is considering how the effectiveness cost more than the Government expect. We have to
of Whitehall can be improved. deliver it, and I hope the hon. Gentleman supports the
Now we have a mandate and a majority to address all objective, even if he criticises how it will be achieved.
these matters, we need a careful and consensual approach Although the Health Service Safety Investigations
so that we do not make the mistake of previous changes, Bill, which had its Second Reading in the House of
like the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. That Act was a Lords at the end of the previous Parliament, was not
rather grubby deal to try to cement the coalition into specifically mentioned in the Gracious Speech, I have
office, and it had all sorts of unintended consequences. had it confirmed that the Bill is in the Government’s
We must legislate on the constitution very carefully to programme for a later date. The Bill would introduce a
avoid making such mistakes in future. new healthcare investigations body to establish the causes
of clinical incidents in the NHS without blame by using
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman a safe space so that people can speak freely without fear
mentions the redistribution of boundaries. There was a of prosecution or attack, in the same manner as the air
strong feeling in the previous Parliament that it would accidents investigation branch of the Department for
be a huge mistake to reduce the number of Members Transport. An independent body is required, and it
of Parliament and the number of constituencies from requires legislation. The Public Administration and
650 to 600. Does he think that ought to be revisited? Constitutional Affairs Committee, which I chaired, made
that proposal, which the Government accepted. I chaired
Sir Bernard Jenkin: I certainly do. On Second Reading a pre-legislative Committee in the last Parliament, and
of the Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill, we have the draft legislation we want. All we are waiting
the private Member’s Bill introduced in the last Parliament, for is for the Government to introduce the Bill, and I
I spoke in favour of the compromise that seemed to be hope it comes quickly.
emerging for a variation of 7.5% instead of 5%, so as Our greatest challenge in this Parliament is to restore
not to corral constituencies into artificial shapes, and faith in our House of Commons, our Parliament and
for 650 seats instead of 600. Overwhelmingly, the objective our democracy. I hope the Gracious Speech will contribute
should be to re-establish consensus on boundaries through to addressing that, but it depends on our attitudes and
the usual channels. Boundaries should not have become our behaviour with each other. I hope we move past
a politicised issue. We could not get any boundary previous animosities and rediscover some of the consensus
changes through because it had been politicised—another that makes this place work. I look forward to working
clumsy mistake by the coalition Government. with colleagues on both sides of the House to that end.
We have to recognise that this cavalier fiddling with
the constitution and this period of paralysis have left 7.36 pm
the public with much less confidence in our political Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): As this is my
institutions. There has always been cynicism about politics, first opportunity in this new Parliament, I put on record
but never about Parliament as an institution. The public my thanks to the people of Airdrie and Shotts for
109 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 110

[Neil Gray] and that means that, right now, Scotland’s membership
of this Union, according to the Prime Minister, is
placing their faith in me for a third time and for doing involuntary.
me the honour of representing them in this place. I will I know many of my constituents disagree with me
work for them and listen to them, regardless of which about whether Scotland should be independent. I speak
way they voted. to them. I listen to them. I hear what they have to say. I
Although I welcome my party’s much-swelled numbers, would never deny them the right to have their say, and
I echo the tribute of my hon. Friend the Member for my vote counts equally, in equal weight as theirs. What
Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) to Stephen Gethins, the Prime Minister is suggesting is that what he has to
who sadly lost his seat. He is the best of us—there is no say is more important and carries more weight than
doubt about that—and I wish him and his young family what we have to say in Scotland, and that people who
well for the future. both agree and disagree with him in Scotland matter
not to him. He puts himself above the people in Scotland.
Today’s programme for government in the Queen’s
Taking back control indeed.
Speech is thin gruel for those who have been hammered
by austerity for almost 10 years, but that is hardly a
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Can my hon. Friend
surprise when we look at the Tory party manifesto,
imagine the howls of indignation from Conservative
which makes just four mentions of universal credit and
Members if a scenario were to arise in which the First
none of disability support such as personal independence
Minister of Scotland prevented the rest of the United
payments. I can find absolutely nothing new on work
Kingdom from having a referendum on whether to stay
and pensions. In fact, all the Tory manifesto does for
in or leave the European Union? Heaven and Earth
social security is conflate universal credit as only being
would be moved by a Government in London to make
for people who are out of work when, in fact, more than
sure it happened.
a third of recipients are in work.
The Tories have nothing new in their manifesto and, Neil Gray: Absolutely. I am about to make the point
again, nothing new in today’s programme for government that what is good for the goose is good for the gander,
for people on low incomes. It seems that the Brexit and my hon. Friend makes that point well.
bonanza predicted by the Prime Minister will not reach Our case is made stronger because of the nature of
those on low incomes—quelle surprise. the election campaign we just had in Scotland. Jackson
In fact, yesterday the Department for Work and Carlaw, the acting Tory leader in Scotland, said the
Pensions removed the right of disabled people to choose Union was on the ballot paper. Annie Wells MSP said
whether to have the results of their work capability that if Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP win, “they get
assessment sent to their GP. That will make it harder for their referendum.” I am yet to see a Tory leaflet in
those who fail these notoriously unfair and inaccurate Scotland that did not have opposition to a second
assessments, but who simply cannot work, to get signed referendum at the heart of it. The SNP manifesto and
off with a sickness line by their GP. The Tories wasted all my literature talked about Scotland’s right to choose.
no time in hurting the rights of disabled people. I was clear, even with prospective voters who were
Today, we have seen the announcement of the statistic undecided on voting for me but opposed to independence,
of the year, which has been covered widely. The Institute that I would campaign for a second referendum if I was
for Fiscal Studies says that 58% of all those living in re-elected.
poverty in the UK are in work, which is shameful. A The result in Scotland was clear—even clearer than
wee national insurance tax break will do nothing to here in the rest of the UK. The Tories lost half their
solve this and, unless there is radical change, it will seats in Scotland. Their share of the vote went down
become an even greater social crisis during this Parliament. and the SNP won more than 80% of the seats we
Whatever time I have left here, however long it is, I will contested. We have a higher share of the vote than the
do what I can to fight for people who deserve so much Prime Minister enjoys. In response to my intervention,
better from this UK Government. the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for
Maidenhead (Mrs May), suggested that because we
Also conspicuous in its absence from today’s programme achieved only—only!—45% of the vote in Scotland our
for government is any meaningful mention of Scotland, mandate can be ignored. She has not really thought that
or indeed any legislative plans for Scotland’s future. through, has she? Extend that logic to the fact that the
The First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has written to the Prime Minister achieved only 43% of the vote in the rest
Prime Minister today with a clear democratic and of the UK. Nobody is denying the Prime Minister his
constitutional case for Scotland being given the right to democratic right to govern, and they should not be
choose our own future. The Referendums (Scotland) denying Scotland’s right to choose any longer.
Bill has been passed by Holyrood this evening.
Scotland is not a region questioning its place in a Sir Bernard Jenkin rose—
larger unitary state. We are a country in a voluntary
Union of nations. Our friends in the rest of the UK will Neil Gray: I look forward to hearing from the Tory
always be our closest allies and neighbours but, in line Benches the democratic case for how Scotland can be
with the principle of self-determination, people in Scotland denied its say.
have the right to determine whether the time has come
for a new, better relationship in which we can thrive as a Sir Bernard Jenkin: The fact is that nobody in Scotland
genuine partnership of equals. That is the Scottish can possibly have voted without the knowledge that the
Government’s very reasonable assessment. The response Government of the United Kingdom were not going to
of the Prime Minister and the Tory party means that agree to a referendum, so they could vote for whichever
democracy stopped for the people in Scotland in 2014 protest party they liked in the full knowledge that the
111 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 112

hon. Gentleman’s promise would not be delivered in and apple pie. It is incumbent on us to define what we
any case. Also, as was pointed out earlier, the SNP got mean by it, so I will say a few words about what it
fewer seats than it got in 2015. Why this result is certainly means to me and what I think and hope it
regarded as a great triumph when the SNP has been means to others.
going backwards, I do not know. One nation conservatism is about patriotism, not
narrow nationalism. It is about a nation based on one
Neil Gray: The Union was on the ballot paper. No United Kingdom that recognises that nationalism is
clearer campaign message came from the Scottish never the answer to any social problem. One nation
Conservatives than that, and it was wholeheartedly and conservatism is about being engaged and involved in the
comprehensively rejected by the people of Scotland. It world—playing a part on the world stage and not
would be wise of a so-called leader—one who aspires to retreating into isolationism. It is a belief in social mobility
statesmanship—to listen not just to those who voted for and the moral imperative to drive it. It is a belief in the
him, but those who voted against him, and to listen to role of the state to deliver excellent public services and
the second largest member of this Union, which whole- sensible regulation. It is a belief in universal human
heartedly rejected the manifesto that he put forward at rights and the rule of law as the bulwark of our individual
the general election. freedoms. Critically, it is a belief in the environment—that
In her entertaining speech, the hon. Member for conservatism must elide into conservationism. There is
Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) suggested that a moral duty upon us to bequeath a cleaner and greener
the Prime Minister was oven ready. Well, I say that what environment to the next generation.
is good for the goose is good for the gander. Tory
Members and the right hon. Member for East Antrim Stewart Malcolm McDonald: The hon. Gentleman
(Sammy Wilson) say that the SNP does not respect the says that my party is never the answer, so can he tell me
results of democratic events. Well, in 2014 we respected why it is that when his party and my party are on a
the result of the referendum. Scotland did not become ballot paper, his lot get horsed and we keep beating them?
independent against the wishes of the people of Scotland.
In spite of the even greater victory in 2015—the general Alex Chalk: I worry that the hon. Gentleman never
election that saw us return 56 SNP MPs—we did not seems ready to listen to what the Scottish people have
push in the first part of that Parliament for a second said. In 2014, Scottish people said they wanted to
referendum. Then Brexit completely changed the offer remain part of the United Kingdom, but he refuses to
of the Union voted on in 2014. In 2017, we lost seats, listen to them. Respect the people of Scotland. Listen
although we still held a majority of seats in Scotland. to them. Honour the referendum result,
We won the election in Scotland, but there was contrition
and our campaign for a second referendum after the On Brexit, the language of this one nation Prime
2017 general election took a step back. Minister is that this is not the time when we become
fortress Britain; it is the time when we become global
It is the Tories now who wish to ignore the people
Britain. We will be more open, more welcoming, more
and ignore the people of Scotland, but make no mistake:
internationalist, more tolerant. That is the direction that
we now have a mandate from four consecutive
we need to go in.
parliamentary elections, and the result last week is
unarguable by any democrat. It is for the Prime Minister The second element of the Queen’s Speech—such an
to explain in a reasoned way why he would deny Scotland important, striking element—relates to the NHS. In the
the right to have our say. It is he who now has to justify election campaign, so much nonsense was talked about
his unsustainable position. If he continues to refuse our privatisation of the NHS. The problem was that sometimes,
right as the second largest nation in the Union to mischievously, the word “privatisation” was used to
choose, he will be judged as the one nation Prime mean two different things. It is important to emphasise
Minister he so desperately craves to be. He will continue that the principle of healthcare being provided free at
to be judged as the vote leave, little Englander Prime the point of need, regardless of ability to pay, is sacrosanct.
Minister, and that will not serve him well in Scotland. It is simply not up for discussion and it never was going
to be up for discussion. It is an article of faith for this
7.46 pm nation, part of what marks us out in the community of
nations. I am so proud that I was able to stand in
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): I rise in support of Cheltenham on the record of what the Government had
the Gracious Speech. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. achieved for Cheltenham and for Cheltenham General
Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray). I did not Hospital. We had had more money put into our A&E
agree with a great deal of what he had to say, but he services and saved our A&E. We had delivered the new
certainly delivered his remarks with his characteristic £2 million Apollo surgical theatre for the hospital,
force and eloquence. £1 million for Gloucestershire air ambulance, linear
I thank the people of Cheltenham for returning me accelerators and so on and so forth.
for the third time. It was a hard-fought campaign, and I What is exciting about the Queen’s Speech is the
pay tribute to those who stood against me, because pledge to invest yet more in our hospitals and the NHS
I think anybody who puts themself up for election, in general. I want to see in Cheltenham a Gloucestershire
particularly in the social media age, takes a brave step. cancer institute, and I will support the oncologists who
The result nationally is fantastic. We are able now to do such a fantastic job and provide health services not
break the paralysis and to move forward. It is right also just in Cheltenham and not just in Gloucestershire, but
to recognise that with the great power that comes from as far afield as Wales, Warwickshire, Herefordshire and
this majority comes responsibility. I was delighted to still further afield. The Queen’s Speech rightly focuses
hear the Prime Minister speak the language of one on recruiting more staff, and on ending the injustice of
nation, but of course one nation can be merely motherhood the parents of a small child who has to be cared for
113 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 114

[Alex Chalk] 7.54 pm

Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP): I
overnight, or people with disabilities, or out-patients have been returned to Parliaments often enough to
who require repeated treatments having to pay car know that in the first few days it is supposed to be
parking charges. The Queen’s Speech also addresses the friendly, collegiate and jovial. There is barely a human
issue of doctors’ pensions and the fact that too many being on the planet who I do not wish well, but I cannot
clinicians, particularly senior clinicians, are feeling priced feign joviality simply because some Conservative Members
out of going back to work because of the law of get irritated and would rather we in the SNP cheered up
unintended consequences and the way it applied to pensions. or just shut up. I cannot feign it when I represent many
That issue will be resolved. people who have long since lost the energy or reason to
I am excited about what will happen to our schools. smile because of what successive Tory Governments
One thing that did not really surface enough in the have put them through. I cannot pretend that there is
election campaign is how standards in our schools have anything collegiate about this place when I have sat
risen, and risen relentlessly. The situation we inherited through debates in Committees, spoken up for constituents
in 2010 was that our schools were on a downward and talked about the real pain and distress that many of
trajectory, and we were slipping down the league tables them have felt because of UK Government policies, yet
in respect of the international comparisons. That is no the policies are still railroaded through and their pain
more: we are now heading up the league tables and are and distress are ignored and intensified. There is nothing
ahead of France, Germany and the United States in collegiate about that, so I will not be feigning anything.
reading and mathematics. That is something to be celebrated I will just be sticking up for my constituents and for
and we should be paying tribute to our teachers, the Scotland.
parents who support them and the school governors During this long debate, I was softening, because I
who are doing it time and again. In Cheltenham in am a very soft-hearted person, until the hon. Member
particular, the results being achieved in our secondary for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) got
schools—in Balcarras, in Bournside, in Pate’s, in All up to speak. I am going to pick up on just two of the
Saints’ and in all the other schools—are absolutely many things he said that absolutely enraged me. The
fantastic. first was when he talked about somebody—I missed
The Government have indicated that we will provide who it was—who had posted the number for the Samaritans
more funding. It is a fact that schools have delivered in response to the Conservative Government getting
services despite the fact that the cost base and cost their big majority. If he does not understand that thousands
pressures have been going up, not least in respect of of people are in a really bad way and are very distressed
teachers’ pensions and so on. Whereas in 2015 the that they will have to go through another five years of
schools in my constituency received about £4,200 per even worse policies and the impact they will have on
head as a minimum, that will go up next year to a them, he does not understand even his constituency.
minimum of £5,000 per head. In fact, the average in The hon. Gentleman then talked about how the absolute
Cheltenham will be closer to £5,300 per head. That is priority must be letterboxes. Now, I am a letterbox
going to empower and turbo-charge our schools to anorak as much as anybody else in here, but he talked
continue the fantastic work that they are doing. about how he was constantly damp and frozen during
the election campaign and how he had to deal with all
One point ably made by my hon. Friend the Member
these horrible letterboxes, and he said that had to be an
for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) was
absolute priority. I am sorry, but I have loads of constituents
about our environment. As I said when I introduced my
who are constantly damp and frozen because they cannot
private Member’s Bill on net zero carbon, we need a
afford to heat their homes, and he will have plenty of
new radicalism, but although we need to proceed with
them as well. If they had heard him say that, they would
our heart, we also need to proceed with our head. I was
feel extremely let down by him.
delighted to hear of the new independent office for
environmental protection, which will provide legal targets, I will be collegiate about my predecessor. Paul Sweeney
including on air quality. There are important measures was a tough opponent, mainly because we agreed on so
on planting more trees—the great Northumberland much and shared so many political interests. He is
forest—and on new national parks and areas of outstanding passionate about urban regeneration, restoring civic
natural beauty, but also a clear and hard-headed pride and the built heritage of Glasgow, particularly
commitment to phase out coal completely by 2025 and Glasgow North East, from where he hails. He considered
to ensure that newly built houses no longer have fossil-fuel it a huge honour to represent the area he grew up in.
heaters. As we build more homes in Cheltenham as part Politics can be really tough. It is not just a job we lose,
of the cyber-park project, on any view they should no and it is not just us who lose our jobs, so I wish him and
longer have gas boilers—I think they should be carbon his team well for the future.
neutral. That is what we need to focus on and the I would like to redress a terrible faux pas that I made
Queen’s Speech does so. when the results of the election were announced in
Glasgow. I paid tribute to my opponents’ campaigners
In summary, I could talk for a long time, but this and completely omitted to mention my own team. This
Queen’s Speech can deliver a future for our country that has been pointed out to me once or 25 times in the past
is healthier, with children who are better educated, a week, so now, from the bottom of my heart, I thank not
country that is cleaner and an environment that is better just the voters of Glasgow North East, whom I do
protected. I am delighted to support the Gracious Speech. thank, but my brilliant campaign team, who were
The future for our country can be very bright indeed. determined to move heaven and earth to get me elected—
and they did. If it is not stretching it a wee bit too much,
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Gary Streeter): We now welcome can I just say that one of them, Esther, celebrates her
back Anne McLaughlin. birthday today? Happy birthday, Esther.
115 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 116

What is in the Queen’s Speech for the constituents of the UK Government that the cost of her green deal
Glasgow North East? [Interruption.] “Hee haw” I hear products would be nominal, that she should not worry,
my colleagues say. Let us look at some of the issues it was a Government scheme and they would pay the
facing some of my constituents. What is in the Queen’s bulk; she would have pennies to pay. That was followed
Speech for people being forced to use food banks as up by, “Hurry up and sign, or you will lose out.” This is
they wait weeks for universal credit—support to which what she said to me:
they are entitled—to arrive? Nothing. What is in the “When I got the paperwork with the figures on it I was so
Queen’s Speech for the WASPI women, who should not shocked I had an asthma attack. I was very distressed and
have to be fighting but whose fight will continue, alongside panicked to see that I had somehow signed up to a loan of
many of us, until justice is done? Nothing. £10,000 with interest of £8,000. I am from a generation of people
What in the Queen’s Speech for people such as my who save up if they want something. Other than my mortgage, I
constituent Donna from Carntyne, who is due to give have never taken out debt, and although that sum might seem low
to some people, it was horrifying to me.
birth in March but will do so alone because she does
not earn enough for this heartless Government to allow At the time, I did not say anything because I was too shocked,
her Tunisian husband to join her? Donna was a residential too embarrassed. I am 84 years old, I felt stupid for not knowing
childcare worker—not highly paid but highly valued what I was signing. I felt ashamed and I felt vulnerable. I did not
and absolutely necessary. She did that work by day and feel in a position to complain. I thought I had no choice and I
blamed myself. I don’t blame myself any longer.”
DJed by night and she still did not meet the minimum
income threshold. What is in the Queen’s Speech for She does not blame herself any longer because she has
her? Absolutely nothing. the support of the fantastic Green Deal Action Group
What is in the Queen’s Speech to help to stem the in Glasgow North East, which is made up of 60 of her
rising number of drugs-related deaths in Scotland—I neighbours, all of whom have different mis-selling stories
refer to measures over which the Scottish Government to tell, all of whom this Government have heard from,
have no control? Absolutely nothing. What is in the but most of whom have been ignored or fobbed off. Let
Queen’s Speech for EU citizens living in my constituency me be clear: they will not be getting fobbed off any
who have been stuck in limbo for the last three years? longer. Apologies, cancelled credit agreements, refunds
Nothing but more fear, more uncertainty and more and compensation are what I am asking for. This is an
hostility. issue that affects people not just in my constituency, but
What is in the Queen’s Speech for children, often across Scotland. I am very grateful to those of my
born here, whose parents cannot afford the £1,000-plus colleagues, particularly on these Benches, who carried
fee to apply for citizenship? Nothing, although now on the fight and formed the all-party group on green
that the High Court has ruled these charges on children deal mis-selling, for which I provided the secretariat.
to be illegal, I look forward to the Government’s response. I said that there was nothing in the Queen’s Speech
Finally, what is in the Queen’s Speech to help communities on drug deaths. Last year, in Scotland, we lost 1,187 of
to transition to be greener and more sustainable? Nothing. our citizens to drug-related deaths. The Scottish
Let me elaborate on some of the aforementioned. I Government have set up a drugs death taskforce, which
assume that information on the green energy deal to aid is made up of a range of experts, including those with
communities to become greener and more sustainable lived experience. They are looking at the changes that
will be forthcoming at some point. I urge the Government they can make, but some changes cannot be made
to be very careful about how whatever it is they plan to without the permission of the UK Government. The
do is implemented. Nothing should discourage people Scottish Government want to allow injecting drug users
from participating but, unfortunately, the last attempt to use a safe and supervised health facility so that, if
by the Government to do this, the last green deal, left they go into overdose, someone is there to get help, but
many people penniless and mistrusting. Putting right they—the grown-up, democratically elected Government
what happened to those people will go some way—some of Scotland—are not allowed to do that.
way—to lifting the suspicion that many now feel. I join the calls of my hon. Friend the Member for
Not long before losing my seat in the 2017 election, I Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) who has led the
was made aware of the issue of green deal mis-selling in charge on this in the way that only she can. I join in her
the Barmulloch and Balormock areas of my constituency. calls for the devolution of powers to enable Scotland to
A constituent who I have come to know very well— provide safe injecting facilities, and I will say more
Mr Dougie Wilson—turned up at every surgery to about that on a future occasion, but I am one of those
update me on what was by then coming to light. That people with lived experience of drug addiction. I lost a
started me on a road that I am still on—a road that I family member to a heroin overdose. He died, yes,
stayed on, in solidarity with the 60 constituents affected because he injected heroin, but also because when he
by this, when I lost my seat. I am a little further along in went into overdose, instead of calling for medical assistance
terms of getting justice for people, but truth be told we his friends took fright and fled the scene because they
have got nowhere near as far as we should have done were scared that they would be arrested. It is absolutely
because of the shambolic response from previous clear to me that he could still be with us today if those
Governments. If this truly is a clean slate and fresh facilities had been available, as he would have been
start, as the Prime Minister alluded to, I urge the allowed to feed his terrible addiction in relative safety.
Government to do what the SNP Government have to Disappointed as I am not to see anything in the Queen’s
do as part of their day job, which is to mop up the mess Speech to help people in that position, I will work with
left behind by the last UK Government. other families, with drug users in Glasgow North East
Let me read something that one of those constituents and with campaigners such as Faces and Voices of
said to me. This is important. May is 84 years old and Recovery UK to fight for whatever measures are necessary
she is widowed. She was told by a company approved by to preserve lives and to make those lives worth living.
117 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 118

[Anne McLaughlin] We now have the opportunity of a Conservative

Government who can begin to change the tone. I hope
I said at the start that I would not feign joviality. I that the tone and the co-operation that we have will
talked about the fact that no matter what we say and no change across the House.
matter how good a point we make, the UK Conservative Before moving on to the main points of my speech—
Government are not listening, but that will not stop me, [Interruption.] And before the hon. Member for Airdrie
because I learned a very valuable lesson when I was and Shotts (Neil Gray) leaves his place, I just want to
elected in 2015. I met a group of women in Springburn pick up on a couple of points he made in his speech. I
in my constituency, and they were excited because two hope he will recall that in 2013 it became the Conservative
days earlier they had watched me speak in a debate on party’s policy to have a referendum for the United
benefit sanctions. I told them how I felt that I had Kingdom to leave the EU. The Scottish National party
wasted my time and that I was banging my head against then decided to have its referendum on independence in
a brick wall because it changed nothing as nobody on the knowledge that that referendum would take place in
the Government Benches was listening. They told me 2014, and we know what the outcome of that referendum
never to think like that. Yes, they want us to change was. I congratulate SNP Members on their astonishing
things for them, but they told me that just knowing that result in the 2015 parliamentary elections. Of course,
someone who understood what they were going through they did not raise the issue of a further independence
was in this place, speaking up for them and fighting on referendum because they had had one just a year before,
their behalf, and being able to see and hear me do that and it was understood by all—including their own
meant so much to them. It made them feel that they leader—that this was a “once in a generation” event.
were not voiceless.
I say to right hon. and hon. SNP Members gathered
So I will fight for the justice that my constituents on the Front Bench that my colleagues in Scotland are
need and deserve, but even if this Government are not absolutely right. The Union was on the ballot in every
listening, never again will I feel like I am wasting my constituency in the United Kingdom, because if the
time. Speaking up for the constituents of Glasgow Conservative party had not obtained a majority, quite
North East is what I will do every day until the day we obviously the price of the SNP’s support for being part
all walk out of here for the last time and head home to of an alternative coalition to the Conservative party
Scotland to build the socially just, compassionate and would have been to revisit that issue; that is unarguable.
independent Scotland in which they deserve to live. We Who knows when in the course of this Parliament it
know that it will happen. This Government may be in would have happened, but it was pretty clear from the
denial, but deep down they know it, too. Independence language of the Labour leader in the course of the
is coming very soon, and Members should be sure of campaign that it would have been conceded at some
that. point during the Parliament. For me, that is not “once
8.7 pm in a generation”. I would have thought that the difficulty
that the United Kingdom has had in extracting itself
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Obviously, it is a pleasure from the European Union over the last two and a half
for me to welcome the hon. Member for Glasgow years might just cause a conversation in Scotland about
North East (Anne McLaughlin) back to her place in the the price of breaking up a Union that is infinitely
House and to congratulate her on her victory. I enjoyed deeper, infinitely longer lasting, and which I would argue
listening to her warm-heartedness. I particularly liked is the most successful political Union in the world.
the power with which she presented the case on the new
deal, which obviously has been something she has been Stewart Malcolm McDonald: I know and respect the
working on with the all-party group while she has not hon. Gentleman, but voters in Castlemilk, Croftfoot
been in this House. and all over Scotland do not give a stuff what a Tory
I gently invite the hon. Lady to open her warm heart MP from Reigate thinks of their changing their mind. I
to the possibility that there may be allies all over this say that with all the respect it deserves—and it does
House who share the same public policy objectives—to deserve some. Just as the hon. Gentleman asked my
serve their constituents and to make sure that the benefits hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Anne
system and everything else works in the right way. One McLaughlin), who I welcome back to this place, to
of the issues on which she alighted in her speech was the open her mind to the fact that others might be right, I
consequence of our current drug policy and the work ask that he might do the same. I invite him to Scotland
that is going on cross-party in Scotland. I understand to come and have those conversations, and he will see
that all the parties there are in agreement about how that the conversation has changed. That is why more
policy can be improved. It has been my pleasure to than half the Scottish intake of his party from 2017 are
work with her hon. Friend the hon. Member for Inverclyde no longer here.
(Ronnie Cowan) on this issue.
It is not only the hon. Lady who I hope will reassess Crispin Blunt: I would be delighted to take up that
her view about what she believes are the motivations of invitation. There are a number of issues on which the
those who sit on the Conservative Benches. I will come hon. Gentleman and I work together, and I look forward
on to what a one nation Government actually means, to discussing those issues in Scotland as well as the
and I look forward to the reassessment that will have to whole issue of drug policy. It is clear that Scotland faces
take place. Hon. Members on the Opposition Benches, the same scale of challenge on drug policy as Portugal
if they have a warm heart and are open to evidence, will did in the late 1990s that led to a radical change of
have to reassess the way that they have conducted the policy in Portugal. On the basis of the evidence, many
political conversation, which has become much too would argue that the change Portugal has made has
strident. Obviously, that has been reinforced by having been of huge benefit to its people. One only has to
to deal with the issue of Brexit over the past few years. examine the figures—this will obviously be very close to
119 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 120

the heart of the hon. Member for Glasgow North of what I was going to be doing in the 2017 Parliament
East—to see that deaths from heroin overdose in Portugal, were rather disagreeably and abruptly changed—a feeling
which were at a catastrophic level in the late 1990s, have that my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead
dropped in the most astonishing manner. However, the (Mrs May) would have had when she saw the results of
position in Scotland—a country of comparable size—is the 2017 election. She dutifully tried to make the 2017
that the figures remain of a horrifying scale, as the hon. Parliament work in order to deliver Brexit, and we
Lady said. know the story. That Parliament was elected on a mandate
to deliver Brexit. As she said in her own contribution,
Anne McLaughlin: Does the hon. Gentleman understand some reneged on that promise to the electorate and have
that that is one of the arguments for independence now paid the price, as the electorate were able to revisit
because we do not have the option to do what Portugal the issue.
did—we cannot make that decision in Scotland? The Perhaps unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for
Scottish Parliament could decide it wants to do it, every Maidenhead, I was able to find a more enjoyable and
Scottish council and every person in Scotland could say, productive role on issues that we have touched on today,
“Yes, we want to do it,” but we would not be able to do particularly drug policy reform. It is good to see the
it because we would still have to ask permission from hon. Members for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire)
the hon. Gentleman’s Government, and just wait and and for Manchester, Withington (Jeff Smith) in their
see whether they said yes or no. places. We have worked together on this incredibly
important issue and look forward to progressing that
Crispin Blunt: Indeed. Well, guess what? The hon. work in this Parliament by making the case for a policy
Lady has an ally over here, as someone who wants to based on evidence. But my right hon. Friend the Member
ensure that we have sensible policy, based on evidence for Maidenhead was not able to square the impossible
across the whole United Kingdom. [Interruption.] circle. It was only when we went back to the country,
Mr Deputy Speaker, you rightly drag me back to the who made their decision a week ago, that we were able
Queen’s Speech. to escape the situation.
The background to this Queen’s Speech is, of course, My assessment in June this year was that there would
the huge sense of relief that exactly a week ago the have to be a Brexit alliance to enable us to escape the
country gave its Government the authority and majority position we were in. I thought the Conservative party
to escape the awful trap we found ourselves in after the would have to come to an accommodation with the
outcome of the 2017 general election. The nation has Brexit party to get the kind of result we have today.
given a mandate for a one nation Government. The There would have been a price to pay for that, because
Gracious Speech makes it clear that it is those principles we would not have been dealing with a Queen’s Speech
that will define our approach, and I am happy to give it set in the same terms as this one. The Brexit party
an unqualified welcome. There is mention of the integrity would have had its own view and the Conservative
and prosperity of the United Kingdom being of the party would have taken reputational damage as the
utmost importance—and so are the values and principles price of that relationship. The true triumph of my right
that should underlie the new role that global Britain will hon. Friend the Prime Minister is that we have been able
play under a one nation Government. I will return to to effect this majority without that arrangement. I did
how those principles will inform our future foreign and not think he could do that and most of this House did
security policy in a moment, but I first want to reflect not think he could get a withdrawal agreement with the
on the scale of the opportunity now available to this European Union, yet he has managed to do both. And
Administration, led by my right hon. Friend the Prime now what is open to us is the kind of prospect available
Minister. for a one nation Government delivering on the values
We should be in no doubt about how much the Prime and policies that sit in this Queen’s Speech.
Minister is the author of this opportunity. Before the Let me now turn to the detail of the Queen’s Speech
leadership election, following our drubbing in the European and reflect on some things on the basis of my experience
Union elections last June, I did not think that anyone in government. I welcome the royal commission to
could deliver an exit from the European Union without review and improve the efficiency and effectiveness of
an electoral alliance with the Brexit party. That is why I the criminal justice process. There is a theme that informs
hesitated and delayed my support for my right hon. Britain’s place in the world and the values that we stand
Friend when he was running as a candidate for the for, and that is justice. We cannot really face the rest of
leadership of our party, despite the fact that he was the world if the standards of the bit of our justice
self-evidently the best equipped to lead. Perhaps I was system that works immensely well and runs efficiently
drawing on my experience of my exit from the chairmanship and to the highest possible standards—the commercial
of the Foreign Affairs Committee in 2017, when I found courts in London where the world’s companies come to
that I was challenged on one side for not being a Brexity have their cases adjudicated in British courts—are then
enough. I would say that no, I was not a “believer” as not reflected in the rest of the justice system under
such; I thought it was the right conclusion for the which British citizens have to operate. Having worked in
long-term interests of the United Kingdom based on the Ministry of Justice when it was unprotected from
my assessment of the evidence. On the other side, I was the costs of the necessary fiscal adjustment following
then successfully challenged by a new, articulate, personable the 2010 election and the financial crisis that we inherited,
and able Conservative voice for remain, who made a I know that this has to be addressed. We have to find a
strong case as to why he should be marking the then way of making sure that all the elements of the criminal
Foreign Secretary’s report card. Combined with the justice system are able better to work with each other,
support of my hon. Friends elected in 2015 and their and to reflect new technologies and take those savings
understandable desire to have one of their own on an where we can, but also of improving the service that is
important platform, I suddenly found that my expectations delivered to all our citizens.
121 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 122

[Crispin Blunt] and tackling exploitative gangs, but also provides protection
for the neighbours of people involved in drug misuse or
I want to deal with the question of Britain’s role in drug dealing. They want a country that values equality
the world and the values that are going to underpin and human rights, and they want that to be shown in
that. I wholly agree that we need to look at an integrated how we treat adults and schoolchildren with autism,
security, defence and foreign policy review that must special educational needs and disabilities.
also cover all aspects of international policy, from defence
to diplomacy to development. I know that we do not Crispin Blunt: The hon. Lady is correct that drugs
comment on intelligence matters, but our intelligence policy is not in the Queen’s Speech, but I would say to
agencies are an important part of the defence of the her and to the hon. Member for Glasgow North East
United Kingdom, and I ask Ministers to ensure that (Anne McLaughlin) that only one manifesto mentioned
they are part of the consideration of how we use the the issue of drug deaths, and that was the Conservative
resources that we make available to our security, defence party’s manifesto.
and diplomacy. That is all part of the picture.
As the Queen’s Speech makes clear, the United Kingdom’s Thangam Debbonaire: I thank the hon. Gentleman
interests will of course be promoted by Ministers. Freedom for that intervention, but I have to correct him; I will
of speech, human rights and the rule of law have to be direct him towards the relevant page of our manifesto
the values that global Britain stands for. The challenge at another point. However, the issue is not dealt with in
to Government Members over the next four and a half the Queen’s Speech.
years is not only to destroy the canard that we have The people of Bristol West want a Government who
heard about what Opposition Members appear to believe know the value of music and cultural industries. Again,
about the nature of the Conservative party—that ought that was not in the Queen’s Speech. I declare an interest
to be relatively straightforward to do—but to inculcate in that area and refer the House to my entry in the
those values in Britain’s place in the world. It is about Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
justice, the international rule of law and the maintenance
I will fight for all of this for the people of Bristol
of the global international institutions. There is a space
West. I give the Government due warning that I will be
for the United Kingdom to stand up for the kind of
a thorn in their side, but also a cross-party ally where I
values that will make our children proud. In the way
can be. I will be a campaigner for the people of Bristol
that the political discourse has taken place during the
West in doing whatever it takes to move this Queen’s
election campaign and the years that preceded it, they
Speech and its list of Bills, which I have been through
have been sold a total canard about the Government
this afternoon, to where my constituents want it to be. I
who have just taken office. We have four and a half
will be challenging the Government not just to put
years to put the United Kingdom in a place where we
more money into schools but to reverse the cuts of the
can be really proud of the values that we stand for both
past decade, whether to schools and early years, health,
at home and abroad.
councils or police and fire services. I want them to be
8.23 pm properly funded and the dedicated men and women in
our emergency services and other public services to
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): It is a
have the working conditions that they deserve. I will be
pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin
pushing the Government to understand the need for
Blunt). I hope to be working with him over the course
musicians and others to be able to tour the European
of this Parliament to help to reform our drug laws,
Union as they do now, no matter what happens in the
along with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester,
next six weeks or two months, and to continue to
Withington (Jeff Smith), whom he so kindly mentioned.
benefit from the cultural and intellectual exchange that
The people of Bristol West did not vote for this our membership of the EU has brought. Again, I would
Government or this Queen’s Speech. I have read the like to have seen that in the Queen’s Speech.
detailed briefing as well as the speech. There is a lot in
there, but unfortunately there are things missing in the I will do everything I can to make sure that the
detail and other things missing entirely that the people Government’s Windrush compensation scheme actually
of Bristol West will want me to mention. They wanted a does what it needs to do. Unfortunately there are people
Government whose programme treats the climate in Bristol West who have really suffered because of the
emergency as a clear and present danger needing urgent Windrush scandal. Despite my lobbying and the hard,
action so as to be carbon neutral by 2030, not 2050. dedicated work of my caseworkers, they are still waiting
They wanted our schools and early years provision to for money that they are owed, and I want justice for them.
be properly funded—and they do know the difference I will push this Government further on their health
between a cash rise and a real-terms rise. They want the policy. Again, the Queen’s Speech makes a start but
global refugee and forced migration crisis dealt with, does not get to where I would like it to go. For instance,
but the immigration system mentioned in the Queen’s on public health, I would like PrEP to be provided for
Speech does not address refugees at all. They know that those parts of the population that need it to protect
homelessness is not going to be solved by the warm them from HIV. I would like to make sure that drug
words in the speech, but needs action. They know the treatment is available to all who need it. I would like the
importance of science and research, whether in dealing Government to encourage and enable councillors and
with antimicrobial resistance or getting tidal wave and planners to design cities and towns for active, healthy
wind to be more efficient and economically viable so living, making it easier to walk, cycle and use public
that we can get to our carbon-neutral targets. transport.
The people of Bristol West wanted an approach to I want so much for the people of Bristol West, but
drug policy that, as the hon. Member for Reigate said, they also want so much for the people of the world, and
focuses on harm reduction, saving lives, protecting victims I will be their champion on that, in matters of human
123 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 124

rights and international relationships. Again, the Queen’s Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Hear, hear!
Speech makes noises, but it goes nowhere near far
enough. The people of Bristol West want us to maintain Thangam Debbonaire: Obviously I have a biased audience
and increase our globally respected international around me. I have been proud to be a Whip for three
development and human rights work. They want the years, so I want to say a very personal thanks to our
global refugee and forced migration crisis—which, again, colleague Nic Dakin, who lost his seat. We all miss him
is not mentioned in the Queen’s Speech—dealt with in very much already, and I believe that that also goes for
ways that foster international co-operation, increasing the Government Whips Office.
safe and legal routes to asylum and supporting the right The Queen’s Speech offers the illusion of action on
of all asylum seekers to work, which I believe Members many matters of great importance, but at the moment
on both sides of the House want. My constituents want there is still too much that is implied or missing. I
us to reduce the inequality, injustice, conflict and poverty promise the people of Bristol West that I will do my
that all lead to the forced migration crisis, and they best to persuade, cajole and challenge this Government
want us to build peace. at every step in this Parliament on their behalf.
The people of Bristol West love science and research,
so I welcome the mention of that in the Humble Address.
They value our universities and colleges, and they want 8.32 pm
us to be able to contribute that knowledge to the global Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): It is a pleasure to
challenges of climate change, the decline in nature, the follow the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam
deadly consequences of antimicrobial resistance and Debbonaire) and the thoughtful contributions we have
the impact of diseases such as malaria and HIV/AIDS. heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate
I will campaign for all those things in this place as the (Crispin Blunt) and the wonderful, passionate one nation
Queen’s Speech is developed into a series of Bills. speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham
The people of Bristol West want trade agreements (Alex Chalk). It is also a pleasure to follow the hon.
that enhance, not cut, workers’ rights, environmental Member for Glasgow North East (Anne McLaughlin).
protection and a decent quality of life. I have looked at I am incredibly sorry to hear about her loss. As somebody
the content of the Trade Bill, mentioned in the Humble who met many heavy heroin users in the six years that I
Address, and unfortunately it is not good enough. It worked with street homeless people, I agreed with much
does not do what my constituents want it to, which is to of what she said about the need to fight this terrible
value human rights, workers’ rights and environmental addiction. It was a powerful speech.
protections. I am also worried at the signs that there
might be less parliamentary scrutiny, not more. Apart from the commitment to get Brexit done, the
great highlight of this Queen’s Speech is the commitment
I want to add something that could be allied to the
to enshrine in law a multi-year budget for the NHS and
provision in the Queen’s Speech on cutting hospital
the extra nearly £34 billion a year that we will be
parking charges. This is something that is very personal
spending on it—a huge increase in funding for our
to me, and it would make a huge impact to the thankfully
national health service. Having a multi-year budget and
small number of families who are affected by cancer in
the certainty that comes with it is something that I have
children, teenagers and young adults. Thankfully it is
long argued for. Being able to plan not year to year or
rare, but because it is rare, it is often difficult to treat, so
hand to mouth but for the long term is what will enable
families often have to take long and expensive journeys.
us to take forward huge projects such as the £450 million
Mr Deputy Speaker, I am sure that you will be aware
investment that is being made in Leicester’s hospitals,
that children in your constituency often have to travel to
which will benefit my constituents. It means in practice
mine to be treated. When those families do not have
that we will have a new maternity hospital, a new
much of an income, or one parent has to give up work
children’s hospital and upgrades to all the operating
to care for their child, as is often the case, travel expenses
theatres and wards. It means additional car parking,
are yet another worry. We could attach this to the
because at the moment someone can spend as much
hospital parking charges legislation. The legislation could
time driving around the royal infirmary as they spend
also be expanded to the families of children suffering
actually in there. These are the things that this Queen’s
from other serious illnesses, but I am focusing on this
Speech actually means on the ground for my constituents.
particular awful disease because of CLIC Sargent’s
proposals for a young cancer patient travel fund, which On health, there is much else to welcome. There is the
I hope can be added to this provision. new NHS visa, so that those who want to serve the
Finally, I must say that I already miss colleagues who NHS can get into this country without hassle. There is
either lost their seats or stood down at this election— the Bill to accelerate access to new medicines. All of
colleagues from all wings of all political parties, but those in the House who were involved in the campaign
particularly my own. I sat here on the last day of the to get rare drugs such as Spinraza approved quickly and
previous Parliament and listened to valedictory speeches who saw the torment of the families who were waiting
by hon. and right hon. Members from around the for them will really welcome that piece of legislation.
House, which moved me greatly, and I heard their The return of nurses’ bursaries is hugely important, as
assessments of the contribution that they had been able is the extra £700 million for more GPs and more GP
to make. I think in particular of my retiring colleague appointments, which is probably one of the things I
from Ealing North, Stephen Pound, and Alistair Burt heard about most during the campaign.
and others who made this place richer. Democracy is Equally, with the new money for the NHS, the other
poorer when good and talented people feel that they hugely important commitment that we see in the Gracious
cannot continue to serve our country. This is a bit partial Speech is the commitment both to increase funding and
of me, but I also think that democracy is richer and stronger to reform the basic structure of social care. I believe
for the dedicated work of the Whips on both sides. that, since about 1997, there have been about 13 different
125 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 126

[Neil O’Brien] The last thing I will talk about is something that has
been a passion of mine for many years, which is the
commissions, consultations, Green Papers, and so on whole issue of levelling up poorer places and poorer
and so forth, and we have talked about this for too long. regions. I welcome the Prime Minister’s strong personal
Although there has been progress through things such commitment to this. In the Queen’s Speech, we see a lot
as the better care fund, there are still a large number of of good things. We see the White Paper on levelling up
my constituents who I know, even today, are not getting capital investment across the regions across. We see the
the care they need because of our broken social care commitment, finally, to roll forward devolution beyond
system. Let me welcome that commitment in the Queen’s where it has got to in England, which is hugely welcome.
Speech and quote the Prime Minister: “Let’s get this There are measures to cut and to reform business rates,
done!” which is so important to help high streets that are
Closely tied up with the whole question of fixing competing with the internet. There are things such as
social care is the whole question of fair funding for our the commitment to roll out and to fund the roll-out of
local government, which of course funds it. In the last faster broadband, and the shared Rural Services Network
Parliament, I spent a lot of time banging the drum for for mobile phones, which will improve coverage in
fair funding—for the Leicestershire model of fair funding, blackspots, in constituencies like mine, in places such as
because Leicestershire has been the lowest funded county Husbands Bosworth.
council anywhere in the country for many years. If we A lot of positive things are being done, but there is an
were funded at the same level as Camden Council, we awful lot to do. It cannot be right that so much of the
would have an extra £350 million a year to spend, and Government’s most growth-enhancing spending is
such imbalances in funding simply cannot be fair. I have concentrated in already wealthy areas. It cannot be
banged the drum for it, the Government have listened right that half of the fundamental science budget is
and we have the commitment to introduce a fair funding going to just three cities—Oxford, Cambridge and London.
formula. Now we must land that, and the detail of it. It cannot be right that transport spending per head in
On schools, again we have seen a move towards more London is twice the national average, but half the
fairness. Again, we have the welcome certainty of a national average in the east midlands. It cannot be right
multi-year financial settlement. Leicestershire schools that so many funding formulas have a circular logic, so
have been among the lowest funded in the country for that housing spending is directed towards areas with
many years, and I think we are the seventh lowest high house prices, and transport spending towards areas
funded authority. It is not fair that, while the average with high congestion. There is a circularity to that,
pupil in Islington or Kensington and Chelsea is getting which is like trying to put out a fire by pouring petrol on
£6,000 a year, pupils in Leicestershire have been getting it, or saying that I will not water my plants until they
just under £4,300. That imbalance is just too big. But, start growing.
through this Queen’s Speech and through the fair funding As well as changing the Government’s growth and
formula, we are now going to make progress. In fact, the spending we should also consider what the tax system
average increase in per pupil funding for schools in my can do to help drive private sector inward investment
constituency next year will be in the top fifth of the into poorer places—that is the fundamental thing that
country. We have a 4.6% increase per pupil and, because will help to change the pattern of decline that we have
there are 21 primary schools below the new funding seen in too many places over the years. Manufacturing
floor, they will see an even bigger increase of over 6% a needs twice as much capital investment per head as
year. That is really welcome change for my local schools. other types of economic activity, yet our tax system is
I will continue to campaign on a personal passion of probably less friendly to capital investment than anywhere
mine, which is for small and village schools. In the last else in the G20. If we can change that, outside the EU
couple of decades, there has been a huge decline in the we will have much more freedom to enhance those
number of village schools and small schools. In 1980, capital allowances that will help manufacturing. That in
there were 11,464 small primary schools with fewer turn will help the regions where manufacturing is more
than 200 pupils, but by 2018 there were just half that— dominant, which tend to be poorer areas. Finally, we
5,406—and a disproportionate number of those losses must learn from countries such as Ireland, which has
have been in villages. Of course, small schools are at the been aggressive in the way it has competed for inward
heart of village life, and we cannot afford to lose them. investment around the world, and also ensured that a
Now that we have the multi-year funding settlement, I lot of high-wage, high-skilled employment has gone to
hope we can use some of the money to help smaller poorer areas. People have been very clever in doing that
schools by doing things such as upgrading the lump in Ireland, and we should learn from them.
sum, which is so important for schools in my constituency, This Queen’s Speech is about better healthcare, a
including little primary schools such as Foxton at the stronger NHS, better schools, more police and stronger
top of the hill above the village. I remember hearing the law and order, and about having more chances to get on
children playing above the village during the campaign. in places that have been left behind for a long time. This
It is a wonderful sound and we have to keep it. is about a levelled-up country, performing strongly across
I welcome the additional 20,000 police. We are getting the board, firing on all cylinders, and I commend it to
107 extra police this year in Leicestershire, and I want the House.
to make sure that we get our fair share of those new
police. Although I am limited on what I can say about 8.41 pm
it, I hugely welcome the commitment to end automatic
early release, to have the fundamental review of Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): This has been
sentencing—I called for that before it happened—and a long and interesting debate, and I wish to make a
to have a wider review of the functioning of the criminal short and—I hope—to-the-point contribution, and ask
justice system. These are hugely important. the new Government to spell out what they will do to
127 Debate on the Address 19 DECEMBER 2019 Debate on the Address 128

support our manufacturing industry, particularly our This year, the UK steel industry has paid 62% more
steel industry which I believe needs urgent and proactive than its German counterpart. Representatives from the
support in extremely difficult times. As others have said, steel sector have also been crying out for action on
there is no mention of Wales in the Queen’s Speech. procurement. BEIS data shows that at least 42% of steel
There was no mention of steel either, yet the need for procured by the UK Government is sourced from outside
steel to be mentioned is pressing and urgent. the UK, so there is significant room for improvement.
Tomorrow, Tata’s Orb steelworks in Newport will The Government must get that right. These are all
close its doors at 12 o’clock, having operated since things that Ministers can work on with the all-party
1898. This is a sad day in our city. Many generations of group on steel. I hope the Government will do that
families in Newport have worked at Orb, and it has a urgently in the new year.
special place in Newport’s history. I pay tribute to those As other hon. Members have mentioned, we lost two
steelworkers who are moving on tomorrow, and who fantastic steel MPs from the all-party group on steel.
are so passionate about their industry. They have made Sadly, they lost their seats in the general election. Both were
many sacrifices and adapted in recent years to help the great champions of their steel communities and absolutely
business, and they make world-class steel. I pay tribute passionate about the industry. Those colleagues were
to them for the fight they put up, and are putting up, to Nic Dakin and Anna Turley. I know their contributions
find a future for their plant. I also pay tribute to the from the Labour Benches will be greatly missed. While I
Community and Unite unions, and their trade union am at it, may I also pay tribute to Madeleine Moon,
representatives Paul—tomorrow he will have completed who lost her seat? She made an immense contribution
12,849 days at Orb—Brett, Lee, Rhys, John, Gareth and in this Chamber on defence issues, latterly as President
Dai, for doing the hardest job in those circumstances. of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. I know that her
Earlier the Prime Minister mentioned electric vehicles knowledge and expertise will be greatly missed.
and he spoke yet again about making the UK a home
for them—I believe that was in the Queen’s Speech. Bob Stewart: May I absolutely endorse the hon. Lady’s
That shows the travesty of the situation at Orb. Orb is comments about Madeleine Moon? She was an outstanding
significant because it is the only electrical steel plant in President of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. She
the UK, and with investment it could, and should, play must be gutted about what has happened and I feel so
a key part in the future of electrification. With investment much for her.
it could produce steel for electric vehicles, for which
demand is set to grow and grow. The irony is that Jessica Morden: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that
although the Government support Jaguar Land Rover intervention. I am sure we shall both tell her that she
to develop electric vehicles, they have not stepped in was mentioned in this debate tonight.
with Tata to help that vital component of an end-to-end Finally, I would like to thank the voters of Newport
supply chain. East for electing me for the fifth time. I will do my very
Ministers in the Department for Business, Energy best to stand up for them in the long years ahead,
and Industrial Strategy will start work after the Queen’s including and not forgetting the 1950s women hit by
Speech. What I ask of them—I ask Ministers on the pension changes. We need fast and significant investment
Front Bench to pass this on—is for the plant to be in Gwent police, which has been cut by 40% since 2010
mothballed, and for them to please work with the Welsh by the previous Government. Operation Uplift will not
Government and Tata to try to find a buyer in the new even take us back to 2010 numbers.
year. Will they proactively support us in Newport so Universal credit needs to be paused and fixed. Low
that we can restart the plant, help keep electrical steel pay and insecure work need to be tackled, as do cross-border
making in this country, and not have to import steel, transport issues. Last but definitely not least, we need
which we will have to do if we lose that capacity? Tata’s urgent action on climate change and on the lasting impact
Llanwern steelworks is also in my constituency, and of austerity on our communities. I will continue to hold
news during the election campaign that Tata is to cut Ministers to account on those and other issues on
1,000 roles in the UK has caused uncertainty and great behalf of my constituents and continue to stand up for
worry. We need the chance urgently for Ministers to Newport East. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity
report back on their discussions with Tata, and on how to take part in this debate.
they, alongside the Welsh Government, are going to
help. Tata’s handling of this situation has been badly Crispin Blunt: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
done. As Community union has said, it needs to be clear During the course of my remarks, I was drawn into a
about its strategy for the future. discussion about drugs policy, which was initiated by
The situation at Orb, and Tata more generally, amplifies the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Anne
the challenges facing the wider steel industry. We need McLaughlin). I did not make a reference then to my
vision from the Government to tackle them. The steel declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests,
industry should be at the forefront of the Government’s which does involve the consideration of drug policy in
thinking in Brexit negotiations and in the construction an unremunerated way.
of future trade deals. Some 40% of all UK steel produce
is exported and it is vulnerable to the deterioration of Mr Speaker: It is now on the record.
our existing trading relationships with other EU countries Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Marcus
and the rest of the world. We also need urgent action on Jones.)
energy prices, which are higher than in other EU countries. Debate to be resumed tomorrow.
129 19 DECEMBER 2019 Business of the House 130

Business of the House It would be useful to know what the Government’s

intentions are for the length of this Session. Will the
8.48 pm Leader of the House also ensure that the rights of Her
Majesty’s Opposition, the Backbench Business work
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees- and Private Members’ Bills will be reflected in the
Mogg): The business will be as follows: intended length of the Session? It would also be helpful
FRIDAY 20 DECEMBER—Second Reading of the European to right hon. and hon. Members if he set some Friday
Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. sitting dates.
The business for the week commencing Monday I want to take this opportunity to welcome new
6 January 2020 will be: Members to this remarkable place and to pay tribute to
MONDAY 6 JANUARY—The House will not be sitting. Members who lost their seats. We have seen the roll call.
TUESDAY 7 JANUARY—Proceedings on the European Union They made a fantastic contribution to public service
(Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. and they will be missed—those who lost their seats and
WEDNESDAY 8 JANUARY—Continuation of proceedings those who perhaps were not able to stand again. We
on the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill, Labour Members are pleased that we have more women
followed by: the House will be asked to consider motions than men in our group.
relating to Section 2 of the European Union (Withdrawal) I also let new Members know that the normal business
(No 2) Act 2019 and Section 13 of the European Union questions of the House are a very exciting time, as I am
(Withdrawal) Act 2018, followed by the House will be sure that the Leader of the House will agree. We have a
asked to consider a motion under Section 3(2) of the fine time trying to work out what the business is for next
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. week and we raise important issues for our constituencies.
THURSDAY 9 JANUARY—Conclusion of proceedings on For new Members, there is a SuperHub in the Attlee
the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. Suite in Portcullis House, which is open until 10 January.
FRIDAY 10 JANUARY—The House will not be sitting. Members will know that there are very, very good,
I welcome all new and returning Members to the efficient and kind staff who will help them to see their
House and thank, on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government way through all the different processes. I want to point
and all right hon. and hon. Members, the staff of the out to them the “MPs’ Guide to Procedure”, which is a
House, Members’ staff, security, the Doorkeepers––who handy book, written in 21st-century language. It is a
always know everything––the civil servants and all those wonderful resource and Joanna Dodd has to be thanked
who are always here when we need them, and indeed, for pulling it together. She also knows how to do
have been here at some particularly antisocial hours in indicative votes—something we had never done before—so
recent months. I hope that they all, and we all, have a we are moving into the 21st century.
very happy and restful Christmas, and that we then Finally, as far as I am concerned, I have always been
look forward to a productive new year—a new year in elected by the people. This has always been a people’s
which this House, this great institution of our democracy, Parliament. It is not the people’s Parliament for the first
will work for the people, delivering the Prime Minister’s time; we are all democratically elected. I want to thank
ambitious legislative agenda while conducting its work all the staff for bringing us back here, in time, and to
of scrutiny and accountability in the proper way. I wish thank them all for what will happen next year, because
everyone in this House a merry Christmas and a happy there are lots of challenges with the rebuilding and
and prosperous new year. restoration and renewal. I wish all right hon. and hon.
Members and all the staff of the House—every single
8.50 pm person—a peaceful Christmas and a very happy 2020.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I welcome the
Leader of the House back to his position. I am glad to Mr Rees-Mogg: I thank the right hon. Lady for her
see that he has emerged from North East Somerset—we generous-spirited words, as always. How nice it is that
were a bit worried because we had not seen him during we are back facing each other, and what fun it is when we
the election, but it is good that he is around. I know that walk together down the corridor to various appointments,
it is common sense for him to be hiding away, but it is including when your appointment, Mr Speaker, was
good that he is back. confirmed by Her Majesty. That was greatly enjoyed.
I thank the Leader of the House for the business for If I were Mr Ladbroke, I would not take bets on the
the next sitting week. Will he say when the further dates debate on the Queen’s Speech being resumed on the
are for the Queen’s Speech debate, or are we going to week beginning 13 January. That seems to me to be quite
have another Queen’s Speech? I hope not; we still have likely, but that is not a promise. It is merely an indication
not finished the debate on this one. I note the motions for those interested in placing bets.
on the appointment of temporary Deputy Speakers and The election of Deputy Speakers is a matter for
the timing of the allocation of the Select Committee Mr Speaker, and it therefore would not be right for me
Chairs. If possible, will he set out a timetable for the to give an indication on that. I am sure that Mr Speaker
election of the Deputy Speakers and the Select Committee will keep us informed. The reason for the delay with the
Chairs? Select Committees is the Christmas recess, and it will be
Can the Leader of the House confirm the recess dates done as promptly as is reasonably possible.
up to July 2020? We are now not in a hung Parliament I agree with the right hon. Lady that it would be
and there is a bit more stability, so will he say when that extremely helpful to set out recess dates as early as
motion is likely to be brought to the House? The staff of possible. I think that is an advantage to the staff of the
the House, to whom he has paid full tribute, need that House and to Members, and in particular to new Members,
certainty—obviously, they have to get the House ready—not in understanding how the year will work through.
to mention our staff and us. Discussions on that are going on at the moment and I
131 Business of the House 19 DECEMBER 2019 Business of the House 132

hope that they can be announced reasonably early, and dad splendour. We are absolutely delighted to see him
that obviously ties in with the length of the Session. The back in his place and taking an active role in the House.
number of Bills and the considerable amount of business I hope that he retains his position as Leader of the
proposed in the Queen’s Speech means that we hope House, because we are looking forward to our weekly
that there will not be a Queen’s Speech in another exchanges—or, as it was towards the end of the last
six weeks or so. It will be after a rather longer period; I Parliament, daily exchanges. We could all live without
certainly would be astonished if it was less than the them for at least a few months, if not a parliamentary
normal year. Session.
I absolutely understand the right hon. Lady’s point I also pay tribute to Members who lost their seats. We
about Backbench Business days, Opposition days and did not experience that same type of issue, but we did
sitting Fridays. Dare I make the rather obvious point lose one very dear colleague, a great friend of mine and
that when the Government have a majority it is much of all those on these Benches, Stephen Gethins. We wish
easier to be generous in the allocation of time than him all the best.
when the Government do not have a majority, because It was a particularly good night for the Scottish
the Government can continue to get their business National party, and we are delighted to see so many
through. I hope that we will find a great outpouring of new SNP Members here. I know that they will be coming
consensus on finding dates for these matters and I hope to the Leader of the House, who will be very generous
that even the Scottish National party will be happy in affording some of his time for various briefings of
when that happens, although hoping that the SNP will new Members, and I know that he will encourage our
be happy is sometimes a rather forlorn thought. new Members to take up that opportunity.
I was very impressed by what the right hon. Lady said It is no surprise that the first week back will be all
in tribute to those who lost their seats. One is always in about the withdrawal agreement Bill. We presumed that
an odd position as an MP for a particular party when that would be the case, given the hurry that the Government
one looks at the Opposition Benches and thinks of are now in to pursue and finish off their disastrous,
wonderful people who have gone, people whom one dismal Brexit, as I called it earlier today. I do not think
liked and admired. Nic Dakin and I made our maiden it will surprise the Leader of the House to know that we
speeches on the same day, and I am very sorry that he is will oppose the Bill, because our nation overwhelmingly
no longer in this House, but I am glad that the Conservatives rejected this Brexit, and I think that that was reaffirmed
have won a seat. There are those mixed emotions that I in the general election last week.
think we all feel, and I echo her tribute to the many
Members who lost their seats who have been great The right hon. Gentleman may have devastated the
servants of this House, including, of course, the former “red wall” of the Labour party, but he will find that
Member for Bolsover, who had become an institution in over that tartan border, he has lost half his Scottish
so many ways and whose absence is noted whenever colleagues. He will find a Scottish National party with
Black Rod appears. None the less, I am very glad that 45% of the share of the vote in Scotland and 80% of its
Bolsover is a Conservative seat. I am sure Members will Members of Parliament. We stand dead set against the
understand the mixed feelings that one has. Government’s Brexit, and we demand the right to ensure
that we determine our future on the back of that result.
The right hon. Lady said that the staff are here to What we want to see from the right hon. Gentleman is a
help, and that is absolutely right. If I may praise the means whereby Scotland can determine and decide its
Clerks, the great thing was that from the day I arrived in own future, because the days of an unwanted Westminster
2010 and wanted to tweak the tail of the coalition Conservative Government deciding our future are coming
Government by putting down difficult amendments to to a close. I think that he and I sense that we are playing
various things, the Clerks were invariably thoughtful, out the end of this game, so let me say to him, ever so
helpful and kindly. They are there to help all right hon. gently, that the sooner he comes up with a mechanism
and hon. Members, which they do with extraordinary and a means to allow Scotland to determine its own
discretion, goodwill and wisdom. That is of particular future, the better it will be for all of us.
benefit to new Members. They are not just there to help
the Front Benchers; they are there to help everybody. I Let me wish you, Mr Speaker, the very merriest of
note what the right hon. Lady said about the “MPs’ Brexitmases, as we might call it this year. I hope that
Guide to Procedure”being written in 21st-century English. you will have a relaxing and great time. Of course, I
If any new hon. Member would like me to translate it extend that to all Members, old and new, but particularly
into 18th-century English they need only apply to my to the staff of the House, who have put in an enormous
office and I will do my very best. effort on our behalf this year. They deserve a break, and
let us make sure that we can give it to them.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I
thank the Leader of the House for announcing the Mr Rees-Mogg: I am touched by the hon. Gentleman’s
business for when we return, and I join his full tributes concern for my whereabouts during the election campaign.
to the staff. They have put in a remarkable shift in the Had he paid attention to Twitter and other such things,
course of the past few months, ensuring that we have he might have noticed that I was in Stanton Drew
been properly served during what must have been a very briefly. The Wurzels sang a wonderful song called “When
difficult period for them. They deserve all the accolades the Common Market Comes to Stanton Drew”. I said
and praise they get. that, at last, the common market would be leaving
I have to say that, like the right hon. Member for Stanton Drew, to the great pleasure of one and all. It is
Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), I was concerned about the a particularly terrific song, Mr Speaker, because it
Leader of the House in the course of the election mentions so many parts of my constituency, and my
campaign. I thought that he had become one of the constituency and popular music may not necessarily be
great disappeared, but here he is back in all his Victorian things that people put together in their minds instantly.
133 Business of the House 19 DECEMBER 2019 134

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Electoral Practices

I share the hon. Gentleman’s desire not to return to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House
daily business questions—much as I enjoy responding do now adjourn.—(Maggie Throup.)
to them, I think that they were beginning to pall in the
House—but the weekly sessions will, I hope, continue 9.5 pm
in the normal way. As for the briefings, I am delighted
that members of the SNP have accepted my invitation Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): It is a privilege to
to come to the roundtables that I am hoping to arrange lead the first Adjournment debate of this Parliament,
with members of all parties to talk about the role of the on electoral practices, especially with so much time
Leader of the House and how, from the point of view of stretching before us—something I have long dreamed
the Leader of the House, the Chamber operates. They of. I am sure that the Minister will not mind my saying
are informal sessions to which people are very welcome. that. I am especially grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for
Let me add that any Member who wishes to come and selecting the debate, because I have sought it for some
see me is always welcome to do so. One of the roles of time.
the Leader of the House is to serve as an interface On 26 September, I intervened in a general debate on
between Parliament and the Government, and these the principles of democracy and the rights of the electorate
sessions often lead to my telling Ministers that an hon. after a number of my constituents had contacted me
Member has not received a response to something and about plans to introduce voter ID, which they believed
trying to chase it up. I am always willing to do that. to be unnecessary. I am afraid that I fundamentally
The hon. Gentleman then raised his favourite issue, disagree and am pleased with the commitments that the
the Scottish independence or separatist question. I think Conservative party made in our manifesto. In my
that the issue is that there was a referendum, and I seem intervention, I talked about the scale of unlawful electoral
to remember that Mr Cameron, Mr Salmond and Miss practice in Wycombe and I promised to apply for this
Sturgeon reached an agreement about how the referendum Adjournment debate to elaborate and to ask what the
would be carried out, and that it would be a one-off Government will do to combat abuses of our electoral
event. Mr Salmond, the then leader of the Scottish system. I subsequently published an article, on which
National party—not to be mistakenly called the Scottish this speech expands.
Nationalist party, which should only be done if one My objective is to ensure that free and fair, open and
wishes to tease them, because they get quite upset by lawful elections take place in the UK without cheating.
it—said that it was a generational thing. When I look at It is about upholding the principle that every entitled
the Benches opposite and at the hon. Ladies and hon. voter should have one vote and cast it freely. It is to
Gentlemen who are sitting there, I see that they are not ensure the proper functioning of our democracy. There
fruit flies, and that therefore the generation we are can be no question of disenfranchising anyone, or of
talking about is one of many years and not just a short constraining legitimate political discourse. However, it
period of months. So I think that there is no reasonable is a sad reality that systems of rules are always gamed.
reason for a second referendum, and I think that we It is a sad reality that the rules of general and council
should stick to what people said before the referendum elections are being gamed today. Evidently, some are
was held. I seem to remember that Miss Sturgeon spoke happy to cheat to win.
of the gold standard of referendums, and I do not think Since the legitimacy of political power rests on the
that gold has tarnished. consent of the public, expressed at the ballot box,
action is required. Since I have already had some foolish
Mr Speaker: I am sure that the Leader of the House and vexatious reactions to my article, I wish to make it
will be getting a combine harvester from The Wurzels. clear, up front, that the fundamental reason for this
I wish Members all the best for Christmas. Let us debate is to stand with the law-abiding majority across
hope for a peaceful new year. I reiterate that I cannot all sections of my diverse constituency, including EU
thank the staff of the House––not only those who work nationals and people of Asian descent, against the
for us, but those who keep us safe––enough. I really corruption perpetrated against them by certain individuals.
appreciate what they have done. I say to hon. Members: I seek to advance justice and equality for all.
please, bear with the staff. Do not take it out on them if Furthermore, I am confident that the agents of the
you have got frustrations. They are here to help, not main political parties in Wycombe conduct their campaigns
hinder any of us. They also need a good Christmas, so with an unimpeachable commitment to the integrity of
let us all have a good break. the democratic process. However, despite their integrity,
I am clear that rules are being broken by or on behalf of
particular individuals.
I pay tribute at this point to the indefatigable zeal of
my agent, Mrs Susan Hynard, who, over some 30 years,
has worked harder than anyone I could name, and
possibly as hard as anyone in the country, to ensure not
only cross-community politics, but that our elections
are conducted in a proper, fair and decent manner of
which we can all be proud. I am very grateful.
I am sure of the account I give tonight. I could easily
identify persons involved under the privileges of the
House, but I do not intend tonight to use that privilege
unnecessarily. I am aware that by the time evidence has
135 Electoral Practices 19 DECEMBER 2019 Electoral Practices 136

reached me, it is often hearsay. However, what I am vote only once and that they are prosecuted if they vote
going to say is sourced to a high level of confidence, twice, but our system should prohibit that. Whether we
including, in some cases, to the standard required to make should rule out students and others from registering in
referrals to the police. That has been done. two locations is something to which I would be glad to
I believe that the overwhelming majority of my hear the Minister’s response.
constituents and people across the country would be
shocked if they knew the extent of corrupt election Jim Shannon: In Northern Ireland, we have had a
practices and voter fraud, which happen every time there number of examples of well-orchestrated, well-detailed
is an election. In Wycombe, we have reason to believe and witnessed instances of illegal voting taking place.
that an important council seat, which the Conservatives The Electoral Commission in Northern Ireland has
held, was lost as a result of corrupt election practices. taken many steps to try to change that and to make the
We think that the extent of corrupt practice could be process more accountable, but there are still examples
material in parliamentary elections. across Northern Ireland of things going wrong. Does
the hon. Gentleman agree that the Minister could perhaps
So what do we find is being done? I know of people
look at some of the practices that we have introduced in
who register to vote at different addresses in our town
Northern Ireland to stop illegal voting, and that this
and then cast a vote in the same election more than
might also help the hon. Gentleman’s efforts to stop it?
once. In one instance, we have evidence that a man
voted once in person and once by postal vote in the
same election. My constituents tell me, astonishingly, Mr Baker: I absolutely agree, and I think that the
that people living outside the area will register to vote Government should certainly look extremely closely at
using friends’ and families’ addresses in order to support the precedent established within the United Kingdom
a particular candidate. I can understand that some in Northern Ireland. Certainly, if it is good enough for
people would want to vote against me, the Conservative Northern Ireland on this subject, I would think that as
candidate, but I object to people being shipped in to do a starting premise, it is good enough for the rest of the
it. In one case, private data held for legitimate purposes nations of the United Kingdom.
was used to apply for postal votes without the consent We have found foreign nationals on the electoral roll
of the elector, and those postal votes were then intercepted living legally in the United Kingdom, but who are
before the electors had a chance to discover and complete neither nationals of the UK or the Commonwealth nor
them. That is a premeditated theft of votes, but the citizens of the Republic of Ireland or another EU
victims would not make a formal complaint for fear of country. Nevertheless, they are on our register to vote.
retribution. I am disgusted to think that today’s system In one case, we were able to establish a man’s nationality
of postal voting should facilitate something so redolent via Companies House. From his correspondence, it was
of the old rotten boroughs. clear that he was on the electoral roll with the intention
We also know of landlords who register to vote at of voting in this general election, but without any
properties that they own, but where they do not reside. entitlement to do so. I have received accounts of candidates
When we look at the register, we need not be presumptuous visiting electors’ homes, demanding that postal votes
about these people and the relations they have with the are completed in front of them and then taking them
occupants of the same property, because when we look away. I am sorry to say that we cannot assume that
at the names we often know the people involved. I am voters enjoy secrecy and freedom when marking a ballot
well aware that it is not an offence to be registered at paper at home.
two addresses and in specimen cases where people can Only last week, my agent reported to the police
be shown to have voted twice, we have reported them, evidence we have received regarding the harvesting of
but no prosecutions have followed. postal votes in favour of a particular candidate. I have
testimony of one young woman’s unmarked postal vote
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is always a pleasure being taken from her under duress by a relative and
to be involved in an Adjournment debate, and as this is handed to a candidate. We learned about that because
the first one of the season, I was obviously keen to she told another candidate that she wanted to cancel the
come along and support the hon. Member for Wycombe postal vote, so that she could cast it again herself in a
(Mr Baker), who wants to uphold the honesty and different way. What a tragic situation to have descended
integrity of the electoral practices. Does he agree that into. It is an abuse that we must not tolerate.
the scheme that allows students in some cases to vote at There are instances of people impersonating others
university and in some cases to vote at home must be and voting at polling stations in their place. Again, we
reassessed and reviewed? One person, one vote was know of some of these cases being reported to the
democracy in the past, and one person, one vote is police without prosecutions following. We have received
democracy today. reports from electors in Wycombe that activists working
on behalf of particular candidates have sought to procure
Mr Baker: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, votes for as little as £10, a free taxi ride or a free pizza.
and I hope he will not mind me teasing him a bit when I This simply cannot go on.
say I am delighted that he has intervened in the As I have previously mentioned in this place, in 2015
Adjournment debate and that normal service has therefore my agent and I personally reported one of my own
been resumed. He is absolutely right, and he knows that party’s council candidates to the police. We told our
I agree with him. One person, one vote cast freely—that candidates that we would hold them to the highest
is the principle of our democracy. I am slightly reluctant standards and that we would be the first to report them
to single out students, although I agree with him that to the police if we received evidence of corrupt practice,
there is a potential problem with students voting in two because we will not tolerate it. Though it gave us no
locations. The crucial point here is to ensure that people pleasure, we did what we said we would do. My agent
137 Electoral Practices 19 DECEMBER 2019 Electoral Practices 138

[Mr Steve Baker] Jim Shannon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

has on other occasions raised specific instances of electoral Mr Baker: Of course. Northern Ireland has relevant
abuse with both the police and the Electoral Commission. experience.
Sadly, prosecutions have not followed. It is a theme that
comes up time and again. I am keen to hear from my Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for being
hon. Friend the Minister, if she can tell me, why prosecutions so gracious in allowing interventions.
are not taking place. Northern Ireland already has voter ID, and it is
In summary, votes are being cast which ought not to successful. People find that it works. Although there
be cast, votes which ought to be cast are being cast by may have been some initial objections or concerns, the
those who ought not to be casting them, votes are being scheme works well. The Government have suggested
cast in particular ways as a result of treating and that they will commit themselves to voter ID, which is a
intimidation and, for various reasons, prosecutions are good idea. We have done it in Northern Ireland, and it
not forthcoming. That is to say nothing of the truth is working.
that votes have significantly different weights in different
constituencies, so I say only in passing that constituency Mr Baker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
sizes must be equalised, as near as we can, if people’s Before I conclude, I will briefly touch on two practices
votes are to have political equality. that are not fair game and that the law needs to address
When individual voter registration was introduced, it more fully. The first is third-party unregistered campaigners
was expected that it would remove the abuse of people who produce sometimes slanderous campaign material
registering at addresses where they were not entitled to with no imprint and no oversight, and without the
do so, but it seems not to be working. What is to be approval of legitimate campaigns and their agents. The
done? The law is often very clear. One may not, for ability to circulate bold, misleading and slanderous
example, offer a pizza in return for a vote. However, it is statements on social media, often in private and securely,
not clear that appropriate importance is always attributed means messages can circulate quickly and widely. As
to each and every vote and to prosecuting offences. I am reported by the Guido Fawkes website, a particularly
clear that when one vote is stolen, or otherwise corrupted egregious campaign was run in my constituency in
away, it is not just a pencil mark on a piece of paper but support of the Labour candidate, despite the campaigner
the inheritance of a tradition of liberty and equality not being registered as a third party. Others are
fought for at great cost and handed down over centuries. independently pursuing that campaigner, and I wish them
If we fail to understand the magnitude of the corruption Godspeed, but what will the Government do on unregistered
of even a single vote, we are a politically bankrupt nation. third-party campaigners?
Our current electoral system has not caught up with Secondly, it seems quite unjust that we should tolerate
population growth and the realities of modern life. Our candidates with no obvious platform who stand in an
procedures have become somewhat quaint, a point which election with no apparent aim beyond increasing the
struck me when I looked at the rules for candidates total budget available to oppose a particular candidate,
entering polling stations. They say that we can go there with access to free delivery of literature by Royal Mail,
to check for personation. While I know many of my a copy of the electoral roll and other privileges available
constituents, I do not know a sufficient number that I to legitimate candidates. If this principle of standing
can go into every polling station and have any chance of candidates simply to expand the budget available to
spotting personation. The rules seem inadequate for the oppose another candidate—possibly the incumbent, as
modern age. However, even as a software engineer who at least one of my colleagues would attest—is allowed,
has looked into the matter, I would not support the the trajectory towards every candidate running one or
introduction of electronic voting machines because they, more shadow candidates in their support is both obvious
too, are dangerously corruptible. and undesirable.
I would like my hon. Friend the Minister to set out
what plans and procedures, perhaps drawing on our There are other practices that I find extremely distasteful,
manifesto commitments, she intends to put in place to particularly in relation to the general standard of political
strengthen the integrity of elections and, in particular, campaigning, but I will not go on about them tonight
to ensure that the electoral roll is an accurate reflection because they should not be objects of the law. I will
of people’s entitlement to vote. What steps will she take leave them for another day. I have raised the matters I
to ensure that people vote only once, that if they vote wish to focus on tonight.
more than once, they are prosecuted, and that that John Stuart Mill, that great beacon of liberal thinkers
prosecution carries meaningful penalties? What steps on political and social theory and, most famously, on
will the Government take to stamp out treating? What liberty, said in 1867:
steps will the Government take to reduce intimidation, “Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he
in particular in relation to postal votes, even though can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad
that may involve curtailing access to postal votes for the men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good
law-abiding majority—people who I believe would be men should look on and do nothing.”
shocked and appalled by the things I have set out? I Tonight I am looking on and doing something. I am
know from my constituents and others that there are saying to my hon. Friend the Minister, who I hope and
objections to voter ID, with a suggestion that people expect agrees with me on all these issues, that in a
might be disenfranchised. We must not disenfranchise peaceful society, one governed by the rule of law, the
anyone and the Government must take appropriate ultimate tool we have to restrain the use of power in our
steps, but what will the Government do to ensure there lives and to give consent to it is our vote. Political
is no restriction of the franchise while ensuring that equality and a free and fair ballot are fundamental
people identify themselves properly? prerequisites to living in a free society. That is what is at
139 Electoral Practices 19 DECEMBER 2019 Electoral Practices 140

stake in this debate. A great deal was said in my constituency We want to maintain public confidence and, of course,
during the general election campaign about cleaning up support inclusivity and equality in our electoral system.
politics. A good place to start is ensuring that, as the My hon. Friend is right to draw on the ancient concept
hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said earlier, of equality in voting rights and in casting one’s vote.
one entitled person casts one vote freely and in secrecy. As part of that work, the Government are committed
to introducing voter ID measures whereby voters are
9.23 pm asked to show an approved form of photographic ID in
TheParliamentarySecretary,CabinetOffice(ChloeSmith): order to vote in a UK parliamentary election at a
It is a pleasure to speak for the first time under your polling station in Great Britain. Of course, voter ID has
speakership, Mr Speaker. I wish you many happy years already been introduced in Northern Ireland. We have
in your role, as well as the merry Christmas you have been piloting the measures in local elections in England
wished to all in this Chamber and all who work here. to be ready in time for the next general election. These
I welcome the work of my hon. Friend the Member are common-sense measures. My hon. Friend described
for Wycombe (Mr Baker) in coming here tonight to exactly the types of behaviour that expose the undeniable
speak on this vital issue, and he is right that I largely potential, not just in Wycombe but arguably anywhere
agree with him. I hope to be helpful to him in setting in our democracy, for electoral fraud and the perception
out what the Government are doing to address these of such fraud, which in itself undermines confidence in
important matters. our democracy. Showing an ID is something that people
of all backgrounds do every day, whether they are
My hon. Friend has given a clear account of the taking out a library book, claiming benefits, or picking
unacceptable behaviour he has observed, and I pay up a parcel from the post office. Proving who you are
tribute to his work and that of his team in taking the when you come to make a decision of huge importance
right action by reporting his and his constituents’ concerns at the ballot box should be no different. I have spoken
to the right authorities for investigation. With his actions, extensively to people about this measure, and they agree
he rightly seeks to support the law-abiding majority. So that it is an entirely common-sense approach—indeed,
do I and so do the Government. many are surprised that we do not already have to do it.
I will talk chiefly about the problem of electoral
fraud, although I will touch on two of the matters my Jim Shannon: The voter ID system in Northern Ireland
hon. Friend raised toward the end of his remarks: the requires photographic identification. Some people have
relatively new issues of unregistered third-party campaigning licences, some have passports, and some have neither,
and of shadow candidacy, to borrow his phrase. I have but they may have a bus pass or a firearms certificate—
heard about the second issue in relation to the election something like that. The Government also set up a
just past, and I would welcome hearing from any hon. system whereby people are able to get a photographic
Member in any part of the House who believes they saw ID through the responsible Government body. There
or experienced something untoward. I will consider are ways of making such a scheme work, even for those
what can be done. On the subject of unregistered third-party who might find it difficult.
campaigners, I direct my hon. Friend to the work emerging
on so-called digital imprints, which, as the name suggests,
is a way of transferring what we do on paper literature Chloe Smith: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct.
to online literature. It rather does what it says on the tin. I can confirm that in the pilots we have run we have
It is important because, quite understandably, online is made sure that anybody who lacks the specified form of
where nowadays we put across and receive messages. ID has been able to apply, free of charge, for local
Voters rightly expect to have political interaction online, electoral ID from their local authority. Indeed, we have
but it should be done in an accountable way. In that heard of cases where that has proved hugely valuable in
respect, we are seeking to extend to the online sphere individuals’ lives for reasons other than elections, because
the regulations covering identification of campaigners they now have a form of official ID that it is possible to
offline. The Government will shortly publish more detail use. I can point to a really heart-warming example of a
on that, which I think will be of interest to my hon. number of homeless individuals in Woking, during one
Friend. of the pilots last year. That measure in itself ensures
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that electoral that everybody who is eligible to vote has the opportunity
fraud is a pernicious crime that should not be ignored. to do so, which is fundamental. While I am on this
Those who would ignore it are condoning it, and they subject, I should also point out that other countries
are unwise to do so. People deserve to have confidence already require voter ID. If we look at Australia, Canada
in our democracy and they expect crime to be punished. and the Netherlands, we can see clear examples from
Victims of electoral fraud deserve support, too. There around the globe where ID is a normal part of the
is no complacency in the Conservative party, nor in voting process.
the Democratic Unionist party, represented tonight by The evaluation of the pilots we have done show that
the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), about voter ID is a success for the public: there is higher
the importance of tackling the vulnerabilities to fraud public confidence in elections in the voter ID pilot
in the electoral system, whether that involves those who areas, which is important. The Electoral Commission
vote in person or those who abuse the option of voting found a notable decrease in the number of people who
by post or by proxy. I assure my hon. Friend and his were worried about the integrity of our elections when
constituents in Wycombe that we will introduce measures voter ID was in place. That returns us to the core point
to improve the integrity and security of each elector’s that if the public has confidence in our elections, they
vote, whether it is cast at a polling station or remotely. are more likely to take part, which is what we all want to
Those measures are part of a much wider initiative to see. Our evaluations also show that the huge majority of
improve our trust in the integrity of our democracy. electors who came to vote did so with the right documents
141 Electoral Practices 19 DECEMBER 2019 Electoral Practices 142

[Chloe Smith] I should say that voter ID is not the only step that we
are taking. Hon. Members might be aware of the Pickles
and with confidence in knowing how to. Based on those report into electoral fraud. There is much to do to
evaluations, we can also say that there is no indication implement its recommendations. In fact, we are part
that any particular demographic was adversely affected way through doing so. It is here that Members will find
by the voter ID models. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Government’s commitment to working on matters
the Member for Wycombe will use that to reassure any such as undue influence and to updating the law, which
remaining constituents of his who might be interested again are relevant to some of the points that my hon.
in the details of how such a scheme works. Friend made.
I reassure the House that that voter ID is backed by a We will also be looking at postal and proxy voting as
range of third-party organisations: not only the Electoral part of that. We intend to ban political campaigners
Commission but international election observers such from handling postal votes, and we will also establish a
as the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in requirement on those who are registered for a postal vote
Europe and the Office for Democratic Institutions and to reapply every three years—currently, registration can
Human Rights, which has repeatedly called for its last indefinitely. We will limit the number of proxy votes
introduction. That is important. As I have said, my hon. that a person may exercise to no more than two per
Friend is so right about the importance of tackling elector regardless of their relationship with the voter for
electoral fraud, and I am sad to hear that other parties whom they are voting. On this point, may I highlight
in the House are not supportive of doing so. We will the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for
want to take up that argument again in this place another Southport (Damien Moore) who did some very great
time. work? I am not sure whether he is here with us tonight. I
The next steps here are that the Government will spoke to him only this afternoon on this matter. He
continue to work with local authorities throughout the introduced the Bill in the previous Session. It was an
UK, as well as with those that piloted voter ID at the excellent piece of legislation because it made provision
local elections in 2018 and 2019, to make sure that to ban political campaigners from handling another
the model works successfully for all voters. I would be voter’s postal vote, and to introduce a limit on the
delighted if Wycombe District Council wanted to take number of postal ballots that anybody may hand in on
part in future. behalf of other voters at a polling station or to a
returning officer on polling day. Those are all known
Mr Baker: I assure my hon. Friend that I will give her vulnerabilities in the system that we seek to remove. I
all my support to make Wycombe a pilot area for voter pay tribute to his work on that important issue. That
ID. May I press her on another point? A voter might Bill was not able to complete its parliamentary stages,
conceivably correctly identify themselves, yet still vote but there is a lot more to do, and we in the Government
twice. I can think of ways—I will not elaborate now—to are committed to building on that, particularly with
check that without establishing a single giant database. regard to stopping the harvesting of postal votes at
What steps will the Government take to make sure that elections.
people do not vote twice, and that if they do, they are I want to come on to enforcement. This is, I think, the
prosecuted? core part of the concern that my hon. Friend is articulating
here tonight. He will understand that I will not be in a
Chloe Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for sharpening position to comment on the particular evidence in cases
the point about voting twice. There are a couple of that he has referred to, but I can give him reassurance
things to which I was going to come later. First, I that there is much work going on to look at consistency
reassure my hon. Friend with regard to something we and enforcement across the country. I want to do more
are doing that goes by the name of canvass reform. We of that, because evidently when an hon. Member comes
are getting deep into the technicalities of how elections to the House with stories as he has done tonight, it is
run, but everyone in this place values this. I ask my hon. clear that this work is not complete, so it must go on.
Friend to take a look at canvass reform, because there
he will find new data-matching practices used by local Regular meetings take place between myself, as the
authorities to check people’s entitlement to register to Minister for the Constitution, and the Electoral Commission
vote, which is of course preceded by working out who is and the National Police Chiefs Council. That is one
in each household, which is the point of the annual canvass, forum that we have used to try to achieve consistency
as my hon. Friend will know. There are a number of and the review of systemic issues. If there were any
steps in that process, which is being reformed, to make elements of my hon. Friend’s presentation tonight that
sure that we allow registration officers to focus their he thinks I should raise in that forum, I would be happy
resources where they are needed most. to hear them.
We think of that mostly in terms of helping those The Cabinet Office has also been working closely
who are least easy to find to invite to apply to register to with the Electoral Commission to run a very large
vote. It is about registration officers fulfilling their duty, awareness campaign. [Interruption.] Please, excuse me,
which is to encourage everybody to register to vote. Of Mr Speaker. All of the activities this autumn have taken
course it is right that they should focus their resources a toll on my voice. Thank goodness it is Christmas very
where they are most needed, instead of following shortly so that I can cease speaking.
cumbersome processes that are otherwise defined in the
electoral law. For the purposes of this argument, there is Mr Baker: My hon. Friend mentioned awareness.
also an extra merit here, which is that publicly held data One of our problems is that people are all too aware of
sets can increasingly be used to better understand voters the vulnerabilities in the system. One man I could name
in a given area and perhaps to look into some of the who, for the sake of clarity, is an Irishman. I will not
issues that my hon. Friend is touching on in his arguments. name him any further than that. He is so obviously
143 Electoral Practices 19 DECEMBER 2019 Electoral Practices 144

guilty of voting once by postal vote and once in person knows exactly what I am driving at. The point is that we
that I could name him outside the House and be confident value a system in which an individual should be responsible
that I would not be sued, and yet he was not prosecuted for their registration, as opposed to somebody being
when we put out the evidence. I am very keen that we able to register for them—let alone register them without
fine people—gosh, jail them if they are really repeat their consent, which was a further point made by my
offenders—because they know what the vulnerabilities hon. Friend.
are and they are exploiting them. I was shown evidence My hon. Friend also referred to double voting. Following
earlier today of somebody boasting in a WhatsApp the 2017 election, I heard concerns from hon. Members
group of having driven two and a half hours to vote that there appeared to be some evidence that certain
against me from his home where he had already voted. groups may have been engaging in double voting. My
This cannot go on. predecessor and I undertook to take all such allegations
and seek for them to be investigated in a co-ordinated
Chloe Smith: Yes, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend way through co-operation between the Electoral
about the gravity of the situation. I hear his point about Commission and the National Police Chiefs Council. I
the penalties that may follow when evidence is presented. am keen to do so again if there is a weight of such
None the less, it is also important to encourage the observations, perhaps running as high as allegations. As
victims of this crime to speak up, so it is excellent that I said, I would be happy to hear such things from any
my hon. Friend and others are playing their part by colleagues if they perceive that something needs to be
raising such evidence. It is also important that we help investigated at a systemic level.
other victims to do so. Even better, we should help them The Government are committed to strengthening the
not to be a victim of such fraud in the first place by integrity of our electoral system. This is vital, because
knowing that their vote is theirs alone; in fact, that was the public ought to have confidence that our elections
the strapline of the awareness campaign to which I have are secure and fit for the 21st century. If people are
referred. confident in our democracy, they are more likely to
There is a lot more to do and much work that can be participate in it; all the benefits that my hon. Friend has
done to help the Electoral Commission, the police and laid out so meticulously will flow from there, and we will
local authorities to get on top of the issue when evidence know that our democracy is doing its job.
is raised. I am keen to offer the commitment to the The measures that we are looking to achieve, which
House that if any Member wishes to raise such issues will flow in this Parliament, we hope, will provide
with me, I will take those anecdotes and observations as greater security for everybody, whether they vote in
a portfolio of evidence that I might be able to use to person, by post or by proxy. We think this is a job to be
take this work forward. There are also some granular done on the side of voters, not on the side of those who
ways in which we can target such behaviour. For example, wish to corrupt democracy. We also think very strongly
it is sensible that police community support officers are that we should not be taking our democracy for granted
now allowed into polling stations by law, which means in any way, so our work to protect, promote and strengthen
that police are available to tackle issues on polling day our democracy is never done. People do deserve to have
should they be identified. confidence in the system. As the Prime Minister said
Earlier I mentioned canvass reform and the ways in earlier in this place, this is a moment of great democratic
which registration officers are able to use data better importance—a moment to repay the trust of those who
than they were in the past. Let me also give my hon. have sent us here, to deliver on their priorities, and to
Friend a pointer about the system of individual electoral ensure that our democracy thrives from now onwards.
registration. I do not know the dates of all the issues he
has raised. It is possible that some of his points go back Question put and agreed to.
some years, which might predate the introduction of 9.45 pm
individual electoral registration; I am absolutely confident
House adjourned.
that my hon. Friend has looked into this carefully and
145 20 DECEMBER 2019 146

House of Commons European Union (Withdrawal Agreement)

Bill
Friday 20 December 2019 Second Reading

Mr Speaker: I inform the House that I have not selected

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock any of the reasoned amendments.
Before I invite the Prime Minister to move the Second
PRAYERS Reading, I must announce my decision on certification
for the purposes of Standing Order No. 83J (Certification
of bills etc. as relating exclusively to England or England
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] and Wales and being within devolved legislative
competence). On the basis of material put before me, I
Members Sworn must inform the House that, in my opinion, the Bill does
not meet the criteria required for certification under the
9.34 am Standing Order.
Mr Speaker: Will Members wishing to take their seats
please come to the Table? 9.40 am
The following Members took and subscribed the Oath, The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): I beg to move,
or made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law: That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Kerry Gillian McCarthy, for Bristol East I also beg that we come together, as a new Parliament,
Darren Paul Jones, Bristol North West to break the deadlock and, finally, to get Brexit done.
Marsha Chantol De Cordova, Battersea Now is the moment, as we leave the European Union,
to reunite our country, and allow the warmth and
Right honourable Julian Richard Smith, Skipton and natural affection we all share for our European neighbours
Ripon to find renewed expression in one great new national
Stephen Mark Flynn, Aberdeen South project of building a deep, special and democratically
accountable partnership with those nations we are proud
Speaker’s Statement to call our closest friends. Because this Bill, and this
juncture in our national story, must not be seen as a
9.37 am victory for one party over another or one faction over
another; this is the time when we move on and discard
Mr Speaker: I will now announce the arrangements the old labels of “leave” and “remain”. In fact, the very
for the ballot for the election of Deputy Speakers. The words seem tired to me as I speak them—as defunct as
ballot will be held in Committee Room 8 from 10 am to “big-enders” and “little-enders” or as “Montagues” and
1.30 pm on Wednesday 8 January. Nominations shall be “Capulets” at the end of the play. Now is the time to act
submitted to the Table Office between 10 am and 6 pm together as one reinvigorated nation, one United Kingdom,
on Tuesday 7 January. Nomination forms and the briefing filled with renewed confidence in our national destiny
note with more details about the election are available and determined, at last, to take advantage of the
in the Table Office, the super-hub and Vote Office. opportunities that now lie before us. The whole purpose
I hope this is helpful to colleagues. of our withdrawal agreement is to set this in motion
and avoid any further delay.
ADJOURNMENT (CHRISTMAS)
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)
Ordered,
(PC) rose—
That this House, at its rising on Friday 20 December 2019, do
adjourn until Tuesday 7 January 2020.—(Mr Rees-Mogg.)
The Prime Minister: In the hope that the hon. Gentleman
does not wish to have any further delay, I give way to
ALLOCATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE him.
CHAIRS (TIMING)
Ordered, Jonathan Edwards: The Bill contains provisions not
That the following provisions shall have effect in this Parliament
to extend the transition phase—phase 2 of Brexit. Is
in relation to Standing Order No. 122B (Election of select committee there not a danger of that strengthening the hand of the
chairs); European Union in those negotiations? Why has the
(1) In paragraph (3), the reference to “a week” shall be read as Prime Minister boxed himself into a corner?
“three weeks”; and
(2) In paragraph (5), the reference to “two weeks” shall be read The Prime Minister: On the contrary, I think that
as “four weeks”.—(Mr Rees-Mogg.) most people would agree that this strengthens our
negotiating position; if we have learnt anything from
the experience of the last three years, it is that drift and
dither means more acrimony and anguish. There would
be nothing more dangerous for the new future that we
want to build than allowing the permanent possibility
of extending—

Several hon. Members rose—

147 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 148
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
The Prime Minister: I think I am coming to the point We remain proud of our work in receiving unaccompanied
that hon. Members wish to discuss. There would be children. We will continue to support fully the purpose
nothing more dangerous than extending the implementation and spirit of the Dubs amendment, but this is not the
period, in a torture that, as we all remember, came to place—in this Bill—to do so. The Government remain
resemble Lucy snatching away Charlie Brown’s football absolutely committed to doing so.
or Prometheus chained to the Tartarian crag, his liver Among the many other advantages of this deal is, of
pecked out by an eagle and then growing back, as hon. course, the fact that we will be able to sign free trade
Members on both sides of the House will recall, only to deals with the booming markets of the world, a power
be pecked out again, with the cycle repeated forever. that no British government have enjoyed for the past
This Bill, unlike Opposition Members, learns the emphatic 46 years. We will cast off the common agricultural policy,
lesson of the last Parliament and rejects any further which has too often frustrated and overburdened our
delay. It ensures that we depart from the EU on 31 January, farmers. We will release our fishermen from the tangled
and at that point Brexit will be done—it will be over. driftnets of arcane quota systems.
The sorry story of the last three and a half years will be
at an end and we will be able to move forward together. Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I offer
The Bill ensures that the implementation period must my heartiest congratulations to my right hon. Friend.
end on 31 December next year, with no possibility of an No communities will be more keen to get control back
extension, and it paves the way for a new agreement on than fishing communities. Will he guarantee that we
our future relationship with our European neighbours, will not make the mistake of the 1970s and allow the
based on an ambitious free trade agreement— allocation of fishing resources to be a bargaining chip
in the treaty negotiations? Will he guarantee that we
Several hon. Members rose— will become a normal independent maritime nation and
conduct negotiations on an annual basis for reciprocal
The Prime Minister: No, I will not give way. This will deals to mutual advantage?
be with no alignment on EU rules, but instead with
control of our own laws, and close and friendly relations. The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend perfectly
This vision of the United Kingdom’s independence, a understands what we need to do to restore to this
vision that inspires so many, is now, if this new Parliament country the advantages of its spectacular marine wealth,
allows, only hours from our grasp. The oven is on. It is and that is exactly what we will do, once we become
set at gas mark 4; we can have this done by lunchtime—or an independent coastal state. I remind the House and
a late lunchtime. The new deal that I negotiated with Opposition Members that one party in this House of
our European friends will restore our great institutions Commons is committed to not just reversing the will
to their rightful place as the supreme instruments of of the people, but handing back control of Scotland’s
British self-governance. Once again, this House will be outstanding marine wealth to Brussels, and that is the
the only assembly able to legislate for this United Kingdom, Scottish National party—that is what they would do. I
and British courts will be the sole arbiters of those laws, look forward to hearing them explain why they continue
and above them all will be the sovereign British people, to support this abject policy and abject surrender.
masters of their own fate, controlling their own borders, Under this Bill, this House also regains the authority
laws, money and trade. to set the highest possible standards, and we will take
Throughout our new immigration system, we will not advantage of these new freedoms to legislate in parallel
only welcome those with talent, but go out of our way on the environment, and on workers’ and consumers’
to attract people of ability, regardless of nationality or rights. I reject the inexplicable fear—
background. We are able to do this only because the
freedoms offered by leaving the EU allow us, once again, Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) rose—
to control overall numbers and bear down on unskilled The Prime Minister: I give way, with pleasure, as I
immigration with our new points-based system. think the hon. Lady may want to talk about this inexplicable
fear.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): Will
the Prime Minister give way? Lisa Nandy: The Prime Minister is right to say that he
has won a mandate to get Brexit done, but what he has
The Prime Minister: If the hon. and learned Lady is not earned is the right to shoehorn into this legislation
against control of immigration, I would like to hear her measures that are a direct attack on some of the most
explain why. vulnerable children in the world. If he thinks that people
in towns such as mine, who believe that we should
Joanna Cherry: The Prime Minister has spoken about deliver Brexit, want to see us turn our back on decency,
welcoming people to these islands. Clause 37 of his Bill tolerance, kindness, warmth and empathy, he is wrong.
removes the Government’s existing obligations with Will he take these measures about child refugees out of
regard to unaccompanied children seeking asylum in this Bill?
the European Union who want to join their family
members in the United Kingdom. Lord Dubs has described The Prime Minister: I understand where the hon.
this removal of a right as “mean-spirited and nasty”. Lady is coming from but, like the hon. and learned
Can the Prime Minister tell me why he is making this Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry),
mean-spirited and nasty move? she is wrong on this point. We remain absolutely committed
to ensuring that this country will continue to receive
The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the hon. and unaccompanied children. We have led Europe and received
learned Lady has totally misunderstood, or possibly thousands already—this country has a proud record—and
misrepresented, the purpose of what we are doing here. we will continue to do so.
149 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 150
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
I thought that the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) Several hon. Members rose—
was going to say that this House would be unable to
legislate or regulate on the environment in a way that is The Prime Minister: No, I will not give way.
superior to the European Union, but that is what we will We must now begin building our future relationship
now be able to do. I reject the idea that our proceedings with the EU. Our aim is to provide a close friendship
must somehow be overseen and invigilated by the EU between sovereign equals, to promote our common
and measured against its benchmarks. The very essence interests, inspired by pride in our European heritage
of the opportunity of Brexit is that we will no longer and civilisation. Clause 3 of the political declaration invokes
outsource these decisions; with renewed national self- that spirit, establishing
confidence, we will take them ourselves and answer to “the parameters of an ambitious, broad, deep and flexible partnership”
those who sent us here. It was this Parliament, and this
rooted in our shared “history and ideals” and
country, that led the whole of Europe and the world in
passing the Factory Acts and the clean air Acts of the “standing together against threats to rights and values from
without or within”.
19th century, which improved industrial working conditions
by law. I am absolutely determined that this great project will
be the project not of one Government or one party, but
This House should never doubt its ability to pioneer
of the British nation as a whole, so Parliament will be
standards for the fourth industrial revolution, just as we
kept fully informed of the progress of these negotiations.
did for the first.
That epoch-making transformation, as with all the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the
pivotal achievements of British history, reflected the Prime Minister give way?
combined national genius of every corner of this United
Kingdom. In this new era, our success will once again The Prime Minister: No. We should be fortified by a
be achieved as one nation. This new deal in the Bill ensures renewed sense of confidence. [Interruption.] In all fairness,
that the United Kingdom will leave the EU whole and I think that I have given way quite a few times.
entire, with an unwavering dedication to Northern Ireland’s The policy of the Liberal Democrats is now to have
place in our Union. another referendum. They have abandoned revoke and
now want another referendum. When they have worked
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP) rose—
out their policy, I will give way.
The Prime Minister: On that point, I will happily give We should be fortified by a renewed sense of confidence
way to the hon. Gentleman. that while our democratic institutions have been tested
as never before, if this House comes together now to
Gavin Robinson: I am grateful to the Prime Minister support the Bill, as I hope it will, history will record that
for taking my intervention—I almost thought we had the first act of this new Parliament, in its earliest days,
fallen out. He knows that he now has the strength from was to break the ice floes and find a new passage
the election to deliver Brexit. He also knows that we through to unsuspected oceans of opportunity. So now
want to deliver Brexit, but we want to do so as one is the moment to come together and write a new and
nation, so I am glad that that phraseology is being exciting chapter in our national story, to forge a new
re-injected into the debate. However, he needs to understand partnership with our European friends, to stand tall in
the concerns about the customs arrangements for Northern the world and to begin the healing for which the people
Ireland, the tariff differentials and the potential for of this country yearn. And it is in that spirit of unity
checks, and he needs to understand the concerns we that I commend this Bill to the House.
share because we want to ensure that we leave as one
nation. We are not going to resolve those issues today, 9.55 am
but will he commit to proper, thorough and detailed
reconsideration, using the strength that he has to deliver Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Over the
for the entirety of this country? past three and a half years, the Government’s mishandling
of Brexit has delivered nothing but political gridlock,
The Prime Minister: Of course, I understand the point chaos and economic uncertainty. It has paralysed our
that the hon. Gentleman raises, but let me remind him political system, divided communities and nations, and
that the deal commits to unfettered access, but in all become a national embarrassment on an unprecedented
parts of the UK. It respects the territorial integrity of scale.
the UK, and it ensures that Northern Ireland is part of We recognise the clear message from the British public
the UK customs territory and would therefore benefit last week, however they voted in the referendum of 2016,
immediately from any of our new free trade deals as and understand their determination to end the never-ending
soon as they are in force. cycle of the Brexit debate, and get back to solving the
Let me remind the House that the special provisions day-to-day issues that challenge them in their daily lives.
applying to Northern Ireland, which ensure a very We must listen and understand that we cannot go on
important thing—that there is no hard border between forever debating what happened in 2016. We have to respect
Ireland and Northern Ireland—are subject to the consent that decision and move on.
of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Unless the Assembly However, understanding all that does not mean that
specifically withholds its consent, and unless it insists we as a party and a movement should abandon our
on continuing with this approach, then those arrangements basic principles or ever give up the demand for a fairer
would automatically lapse into full alignment with the and more just society. We warned before the general
rest of the UK. I believe that these arrangements serve election that the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal was a
the interests of Northern Ireland and the UK as a whole. terrible deal for our country, and we still believe that it
It is a great deal for our whole country. is a terrible deal today.
151 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 152
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) Jeremy Corbyn: The Prime Minister, your leader—if
(Con): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? I may say so, Mr Speaker—said that workers rights were
going to protected. They are not, in this Bill.
Jeremy Corbyn: I will give way later on.
This deal will not protect or strengthen our rights, or Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): Is
support our manufacturing industry and vital trading not the whole point that the withdrawal agreement
relationships, or protect our natural world in a time of seems to be diminishing all the time? This is worse than
unprecedented climate crisis. Neither will it address the the agreement from the previous Prime Minister, the
deep inequality in our system, nor secure the interests of right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). There
every nation and region in the United Kingdom. are things that have vanished from the one that we had
Instead, under the Conservatives, this deal will be before the election. It is not only workers’ rights that
used as a battering ram to drive us down the path of yet have been downgraded. It is parliamentarians’ rights,
more deregulation and towards a toxic deal with Donald because the legislature’s ability to scrutinise the Executive
Trump that will sell out our national health service and has been taken away. It is bad for democracy.
push up the price of medicines to benefit US drug
corporations. It will take us away from the essential Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct.
principles that we believe in: a country that looks after
everybody and protects those communities left behind Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will the right hon.
by the excesses of the free market. Gentleman give way?
This deal does not bring certainty for communities, for Jeremy Corbyn: No.
business or for the workforce. In fact, it does the opposite
and hardwires the risk of a no-deal Brexit next year. I I move on to one of the most appalling parts of the
am sure that that will delight many Government Members, Bill and what the Prime Minister has presented to us
but it will not delight those who suffer the consequences this morning. I want to make it clear that the Government’s
in communities and workplaces all across the country. removal of protections in the Bill for unaccompanied
children seeking asylum is nothing short of an absolute
That is why Labour will not support the Bill, as we disgrace and a piece of dishonesty towards those people
remain certain that there is a better and fairer way for who at the moment are very, very concerned. Throughout
this country to leave the European Union—one that the previous Parliament and for his whole life—I was
would not risk ripping our communities apart, selling talking to him last night—my good friend Lord Dubs
out our public services or sacrificing hundreds of thousands has worked tirelessly to ensure that children affected by
of jobs in the process. the worst aspects of global injustice can be given sanctuary
This deal is a roadmap for the reckless direction in this country. Now this Government, in their first week
in which the Government and the Prime Minister are in office, have ripped up those hard-won commitments.
determined to take our country. They have done their That is a move that the director of the charity Safe Passage
utmost to hide its likely impact, and they continue to has described as “truly shocking”, saying that it could
use gimmicks and slogans to turn attention away from have “potentially tragic consequences”. I simply say this,
their real intentions. coming up to Christmas: shame on this Government for
abandoning children in this way.
Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con):
But the people have voted in a general election and On the environment and food safety standards, the
supported the Prime Minister’s deal. As a democrat, surely deal points to a complete realignment towards the far
the right hon. Gentleman should pay heed to the people. weaker protections and standards that operate in the
United States. If the Government are set on pursuing a
Jeremy Corbyn: I am disappointed in the right hon. trade deal with the United States—with President Trump—
Member, but in the spirit of Christmas I wish him well. with precious few bargaining chips to hand, the brutal
He has not been listening to what I have said. reality is that Britain will have to lower its standards.
Nothing exposes the Government’s intentions more [Interruption.] That is the brutal reality. The European
clearly than the steps that they have already taken on Union has made it clear that a future trade deal with the
workers’ rights. For all the promises over the past few EU will depend on maintaining a level playing field on
weeks that they are the party to protect rights at work, at standards and protections. The choice we now face is
the very first opportunity they have removed the basic between keeping the highest environmental and food
provisions they said would be part of this Bill. That does standards in order to get a future deal with the European
not bode well for the separate Bill that the prime minister Union and slashing food standards to match those of
is now saying he will bring forward on workers’ rights. If the United States, where there are so-called “acceptable
he wants to assure people that their rights are safe in his levels” of rat hairs in paprika and maggots in orange
hands, he should commit to legislate to ensure that juice—[Interruption.] It is true. If Members think that
workers’ rights in Britain will never fall behind European this is a piece of imagination on my part, let me say that
Union standards in future, and support amendments to when I was first told about it I, too, thought that it
enshrine that commitment within the Bill. could not be the case. I checked it out, and it absolutely
is. We are about to strike a new race-to-the-bottom deal
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con): with the United States, and everyone should be aware of
All of us in the House are concerned with workers’ that, and warned about it.
rights and, indeed, the rights of those who are approaching Turning to the arrangements with Northern Ireland,
retirement. The Leader of the Opposition put his policy the Prime Minister has emphatically claimed that “there
to the British people, inasmuch as anyone could discern will be no checks between Northern Ireland and GB”,
it, in a general election. He was slaughtered. What bit of and that “we have a deal that keeps the whole of the
that message does he not understand? UK together as we come of the EU”. These claims are
153 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 154
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
simply not true. We know from the analysis carried out My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is absolutely
by his own Treasury that under his deal there will be an right not to enter into constant extensions to the
abundance of checks and customs declarations in the implementation period with the European Union. Nothing
Irish sea. Not only will that have a huge impact on would give the EU less incentive to come to a final
Northern Irish businesses and society but it will have agreement with the UK than embarking on such a
implications for the rest of Britain’s economy and process. We have had the torture of the last few years in
manufacturing industry. The Treasury’s own analysis which there were endless increases in the timeframe,
spells it out: the more the Government diverge from and we need not go through that again.
EU trading regulations in future, the more checks and
disruptions will be put in place between Britain and Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Given
our biggest trading partner. More checks and more that Australia negotiated trade deals with Japan, South
disruption are deeply damaging for our trade and for Korea and China, all within 18 months, and that we
our manufacturing sector, and they bring the threat of have had 47 years of integration, does my right hon.
taking a wrecking ball to our vital supply chains and Friend agree that there is no reason why we cannot
the hundreds of thousands of jobs that rely on them. negotiate a good trade deal with the EU by the end of
Car manufacturers, the chemical industry and all those next year, as long as there is good will on its side?
who rely on just-in-time supply chains will feel a devastating
impact from all of this. Dr Fox: My hon. Friend puts his finger on the most
That makes it even more incredible that since agreeing important point. We will face not a technical issue, but
their deal the Government have yet to produce a single a political issue. Indeed, the political declaration sets
bit of evidence or analysis to show that it will have a out that we will have no tariffs, no fees and no quotas in
positive impact on the economy or our communities in the economic relationship. That is what normally takes
any way. I say to all Members, new and old, that it is our up the time in trading agreements, so it is entirely
job in Parliament to question, scrutinise and hold the possible that this agreement can be done. The debate we
Government to account, day to day. If we believe that will embark on is not about tariffs, fees and quotas, but
the Government are taking the wrong approach, we regulatory alignment. That will be the central debate in
should never be afraid to oppose. When it comes to our our negotiations with the European Union.
future relationship with the European Union and the We need to see the issue in a wider global context. At
rest of the world we cannot let the Government act in the World Trade Organisation meeting in Buenos Aires,
an undemocratic and secretive way. Trade deals with the it became clear that there are two ways forward in the
EU and the US, or anybody else for that matter, must be global trading system. One is the concept of harmonisation
done transparently. —a highly legalistic regulatory means of doing business,
This country is about to embark on a major change which says, “This is the way we do it today, so this is the
of direction as we leave a 40- year economic partnership way we will always do it in the future.” Against that,
for an unknown future under the terms of the withdrawal there is the wider concept of outcome-based equivalence,
deal. We need an approach that puts jobs and living which says, “Yes, we know what standards we need to
standards first, and builds the strongest co-operation with meet, but we want to find our own ways, our own rules
our European neighbours, based on openness, solidarity and our own efficiencies in achieving them.” The EU is
and internationalism. That is the approach that will bring now in a real minority, as it is virtually only the EU that
an end to the Brexit crisis and bring our country together. takes the route of harmonisation.
There are those in the forthcoming negotiations who
10.8 am will say that, to have access to the single market, Britain
Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): This debate is must accept dynamic alignment—in other words, we
the beginning of a promise fulfilled—not simply a promise must automatically change our rules in line with the
fulfilled by my party, although it is certainly that, but a EU. The Prime Minister will have 100% support from
promise fulfilled by this Parliament to the people of this the Conservative party if he rules out any concept of
country. When we embarked on the Brexit process dynamic alignment, which would leave Britain in a worse
we—Parliament—offered a decision to the British people. place in terms of taking back control than we are in as a
We said that we could not or would not make a decision member of the European Union.
about our future relationship with the European Union, The debate we are embarking on is about a clear
but that the people of this country would take that choice. At no point in the European debate was there
decision and Parliament would respect it. the option of maintaining the status quo: we either had
We have had three years of betrayal of that pact with to embark on our own course, controlling our own
the British people in the previous Parliament, when borders, our funds and our future; or we remained tied
Members simply would not honour the manifesto to an economic and political model of the European
commitments on which 80% of them had been elected. Union that is utterly dependent on ever-closer union. I
Those who wilfully signed up to a manifesto saying that have never believed that ever-closer union is in Britain’s
they would honour the referendum result, but then national interests, and if the bus has the wrong destination
came to the House and betrayed that, did not enjoy on the front, the best thing to do is to get off, which was
their first democratic contact with voters. I am proud what the British people decided to do.
that many of my new hon. Friends are taking the place
of those who did not honour that. Mr Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford
This is also an historic opportunity for you, Mr Speaker, Green) (Con): I agree with my right hon. Friend. Does
to repair some of the damage done to the reputation of he recall that the Leader of the Opposition spent his
the Chair of this House by some of your predecessor’s time sneering at the standards in the United States—a
decisions. We wish you well in that great task. democratic and advanced economy? However, if we
155 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 156
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Mr Iain Duncan Smith] hands. The Prime Minister has no mandate to drag
Scotland out of the European Union. It is clearer than
look at its standards on campylobacter infection and ever that the people of Scotland must have their say
salmonella, it has fewer deaths per capita than the UK over their future, rather than the broken Brexit Britain
or the European Union. It gets there by different methods, that he wishes to impose on us.
and it gets there better than we do, so we should stop Our economy will be smaller, weaker and poorer as a
sneering. result of our leaving the European Union. Why? Because
Dr Fox: I hope that my right hon. Friend will forgive of the ideology of the Brexit fanboys—those in the
me if I do not take too much notice of the anti-wealth, Leave.EU campaign who now run this Government.
anti-American, anti-trade, tired old leftie rhetoric we Despite the Prime Minister’s assertions, Brexit is already
get from the soon-to-be-forgotten Leader of the Opposition. having an impact on our economy. Analysis in the “State
of the Economy” report by Scotland’s chief economist
The debate before us is clear. The Prime Minister is shows that continuing uncertainty is resulting in a half
leading Britain in a direction that will produce a confident, a billion pound shortfall in business investment in Scotland.
outward-looking country. For many of us, we were That is the price of Brexit. It does not matter whether it
leaving the European Union not because it was foreign, is this Brexit or another Brexit—the analysis shows that
but because, in an era of globalisation, it was not all forms of Brexit will harm Scotland’s economy and
foreign enough—it spent too much time gazing at its result in lower household incomes.
own navel and worrying about political integration. We
are embarked on an historic and correct course for our Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con):
nation. The right hon Gentleman will be aware that we were
I return to where I began: the question of trust. In the told before the referendum that if the country voted to
spirit of the season, let me say that I hope that even leave, there would be economic Armageddon—rising
Hugh Grant will watch our seasonal offering this year— unemployment, rising interest rates and so on. None of
“Democracy Actually”. that actually materialised. Why does he persist in scare-
mongering when those things did not materialise? It is
10.14 am about time he had confidence in the United Kingdom
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): It is and saw that the cup is half full, rather than half empty.
a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for North Look at the evidence!
Somerset (Dr Fox). As I was listening to him, I could
already see coming back the red lines that caused the Ian Blackford: We have looked at the evidence, and I
problem for the previous Prime Minister. We are to do a have just set out the fact that investment is lower in
trade deal by the end of 2020 but, at the same time, we Scotland. When the Brexit vote happened, the pound
are not to have any degree of alignment with the European fell but inflation rose.
Union. When we hear talk of writing into the Bill that Let me give the hon. Member two examples to illustrate
there will be no extension, that is a matter of politics. If the stupidity of those who want to push ahead with this
the Government can legislate for that today, they can project. We have recently lost 2,000 well-paid jobs from
equally legislate to remove that burden before the end of the European Banking Authority and the European
2020. I predict that that may indeed end up being the Medicines Agency, which used to be centred here in
position, because the harsh reality is that that deadline London. The Prime Minister sits in his seat and laughs
means that the risk of a no-deal Brexit, which we all about the loss of those institutions, and about our loss
fear, is very much back on the table. of influence over new medicines coming to the United
Scotland could not have been clearer last week. We Kingdom. That is what Brexit is going to do.
did not vote for Brexit, and returning the SNP with a “Scotland’s Place in Europe” provided detailed analysis
greater mandate shows that Scotland still totally and of Brexit’s macroeconomic implications for the Scottish
utterly rejects Brexit. Yet the Prime Minister is blindly economy, outlining that membership of the European
hurtling towards the cliff edge with these deeply damaging single market and customs union is the least-worst
Brexit plans, which will leave us poorer and worse off. option for jobs and investment. We sought to compromise
This legislation will hit our economy, cost thousands of with the UK Government on that, but they are now ripping
jobs in Scotland, sell out our food and drink sector and us out of these markets, and risking great instability
harm people’s livelihoods. The Scottish National party and economic chaos. Conservative Members are quite
will not vote for this flawed and deeply damaging prepared to reduce jobs and opportunities simply on
legislation. the basis of ideology. Membership is vital for trade.
We reject this toxic Brexit legislation and make it In 2017, Scotland exported £14.9 billion of goods to the
clear that this UK Government cannot drag Scotland European Union. Closing down membership of the
out of the European Union before gaining the legislative single market and customs union means closing down
consent of the Scottish Parliament. My question to the opportunities for Scottish businesses.
Prime Minister is this: will he accept that the devolved The Government are looking to lock down opportunities
Administrations have the right to withhold their legislative not just for goods, but for people. Approximately 209,000
consent? Will he now enter into constructive dialogue EU citizens live in Scotland. They bring new skills and
with those who seek to defend our rights—our Parliament expertise, which are absolutely vital to our industries
in Edinburgh and our First Minister? We know the and the local economy. My hon. and learned Friend the
reality is that this Prime Minister will ignore Scotland; Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry)
he will keep ploughing ahead despite the fact that mentioned unaccompanied minors, but on the basis of
Scotland voted to remain in the European Union. At the Prime Minister’s response, it is clear that he has not
last week’s general election, Scotland voted decisively to read his own Bill or the explanatory notes. Let me read
escape Brexit and to put Scotland’s future in Scotland’s what the explanatory notes say:
157 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 158
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
“Clause 37 amends subsection (1) of section 17 of the EU The Scottish Government have a clear democratic mandate
(Withdrawal) Act 2018 to remove the obligation to seek to from the 2016 Holyrood election to offer the people of
negotiate such an agreement and replace it with a requirement to Scotland a choice over Scotland’s future within the term
make a statement to Parliament.”
of this Parliament. There is a significant and material
That is the harsh reality. I urge Conservative Members change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014. Let
to think very carefully, because they are about to bring me nail once and for all this issue about the referendum
up the drawbridge and remove unaccompanied minors’ being “once in a generation”. The fact of the matter is
right to come to the United Kingdom. What a disgrace! that in the declaration that both Governments signed, it
That is an indication of who the real separatists and was made clear that it would not obstruct a future
isolationists are, and we should be very afraid of what independence referendum.
this Conservative Government seek to do. Last week we won that mandate again. Scotland must
The Prime Minister is simply not interested in Scotland’s consent to its own future. Westminster, in its arrogance
economy. He has made it clear with his manifesto mantra and ignorance, has treated Scotland with contempt for
that this is all about getting Brexit done. Getting the too long. It would simply be undemocratic to ignore the
Prime Minister’s Brexit done will leave the United Kingdom will, the voice and the ask of the Scottish people. If the
£70 billion worse off than if it had remained in the Tories think that Scotland does not want independence,
European Union, according to a study by the National let them give us our say. What is to be feared from more
Institute of Economic and Social Research. We know democracy? Everything has changed, and that is why
that the Tories could not care less about Scotland, the Scottish National party today demands that the
because Scotland is being singled out for unfair treatment. Prime Minister, if he is not running scared, gives Scotland
We are the only United Kingdom country to be taken its choice—its right to choose its own future.
out of the European Union against our will, with no say We have a way out of this Brexit mess, and I appeal to
whatsoever over our future. England and Wales voted those in Scotland who have supported other parties to
leave, and England and Wales will leave; Northern Ireland come with us and complete the powers of our Parliament.
is getting a special deal and the right to decide its own We can escape Brexit, and we can take on our own
future;butthePrimeMinisteroffersScotlandnothing—hee-haw, responsibilities. There is a better way, which will secure
diddly-squat. That is what we get from this Government our economy, and allow us to tackle inequality and deal
in their so-called precious Union: nothing but disrespect with the climate emergency. It is not this Tory Brexit; we
for our Government and our rights. can save ourselves from that. It is time for Scottish
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The independence. [Applause.]
right hon. Gentleman mentions England and Wales, Mr Speaker: Order. Come on; let us start as we mean
but in the last election 16.5 million people voted for to go on. To help everybody, I am going to bring in an
remain parties and 14.5 million for leave. The remain informal six-minute limit so that everybody has equal
vote was divided. Does he not agree that the least this time to get through.
Government can do is to provide democratic scrutiny
and a soft Brexit that allows alignment on workers’ 10.28 am
rights and the environment and, importantly, scrutiny Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): Thank you,
over trade deals with the United States and elsewhere? Mr Speaker. It is a great pleasure to rise to speak in this
Ian Blackford: Of course there must be effective debate, and to welcome your approach to chairing
scrutiny. The legislation offers no guarantees on workers’ debates in this Chamber. Thank you very much.
rights and environmental standards, and no protection So much has been said on Brexit already that people
for the NHS from a future trade deal with the US. Brexit who tune in to watch our debate on the Parliament
will hit jobs and living standards, and it may leave Scottish channel could be forgiven for thinking that they are
businesses facing a competitive disadvantage with businesses watching a rerun. I know that it is Christmas, but come
in Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister can talk about on; we need to move this debate forward. It is not good
trade deals all he wants, but the harsh reality is that a enough to repeat the same arguments that have been
basic trade agreement of the type he wants to negotiate made in this place for the last three years. People expect
will lead to GDP being lower by the equivalent of more from us than that.
£1,600 per person compared with EU membership. Time away from this place can be a valuable thing.
People will be worse off, but if they watch or listen to All returning Members of Parliament have had six
this debate, they will hear Conservative Members laughing. weeks away—six weeks to listen to the people we represent,
That shows the seriousness with which those hon. and who we were talking to throughout the campaign. I know
right hon. Members treat these crucial issues. from speaking to colleagues, not just on the Government
Is it any wonder that the people of Scotland, armed Benches but across the House, that we were all getting a
with the facts and aware of the deceit from the Vote similar message. People felt frustrated about the way
Leave campaign and the Brexiteers in No. 10, came out Parliament was acting. Regardless of their political
in huge numbers last week and backed the Scottish party, they felt we were locked in a stand-off on Brexit—that
National party to escape this Government’s disastrous the country was trapped in a situation that we should not
Brexit? Escaping Brexit is now the only option to protect be in and that we should be allowed to move forward.
our economy. We have tried time and time again to This withdrawal agreement gives us the opportunity to
compromise, but the Tories are simply not listening to move forward and get Brexit done, so that we can start
Scotland. to focus on the issues that we know our constituents feel
That was why Scotland’s First Minister wrote to the are so important.
Prime Minister yesterday asking for power to be transferred But today’s debate gives us another opportunity,
from the United Kingdom Government to the Scottish which all of us, whether new or returning Members of
Parliament to hold a referendum on independence. Parliament, need to seize: the opportunity to start to
159 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 160
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Mrs Maria Miller] relationship with the European Union by this time next
year that this Bill will prevent, by law, any extension of
rebuild trust in this democratic institution. If we do not, the transition period beyond December 2020. If he
it does not just damage the Government or the Front succeeds, his gamble will have paid off—although I
Bench of our party. If people do not have trust in their wonder how detailed an agreement he will manage to
representatives in Westminster, who are here to speak achieve in that time—but if he fails, the cliff edge of a
on their behalf, it damages all of us. We have to take no-deal Brexit beckons in just 12 months’ time.
that very seriously. The pillar on which that confidence is built is the
argument that because we have been aligned with the
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): Does the right
European Union for the past 40 or so years, that deal
hon. Member trust that we will get a good free trade
should be easy to reach. That argument would have
deal within 11 months, rather than the average of five to
force only if the Government were planning to stay as
seven years?
closely aligned to the other 27 member states and their
Mrs Miller: The hon. Gentleman needs to reflect on rules, but we know that that is not the case. The Government
the Conservative party manifesto, which could not have want to move away from European rules and regulations.
been clearer and could not have been voted for by more Indeed, the Prime Minister said it today: no alignment
people throughout the country. People want to see this with EU rules. As that intention becomes clear to our
issue resolved and they do not want deadlock, regardless EU negotiating partners, it will make the negotiations
of whether they voted to leave or remain in the first place. not simple, but much more complicated.
We have an opportunity to rebuild trust. The Prime No doubt the Bill will be passed today. The question
Minister made a compelling case in his opening remarks that the House has to address is: can a deal be completed
when he said that we have to bring the country together. when, as we have just heard, it took Canada seven years
That is our responsibility as Members of Parliament, to reach an agreement? Can it be completed in 12 months,
and it is a shared endeavour. This angry politics, which I when we know that we have to negotiate not just tariffs
am afraid we heard from those on the Labour Front and quotas and rules of origin, but services—80% of
Bench, has to end. It is our responsibility to set the right the British economy is built on the service sector—data,
tone for our political debate in this country. I am afraid aviation, medicine safety, co-operation on consumer
that, so far in this debate, that tone has not been struck rights, security, access to databases that have helped to
by all Members. We have an opportunity to introduce a keep us safe from terrorism, which we will lose if we do
kinder politics in our country, which will help to reduce not get this right, foreign policy, co-operation on climate
the amount of abuse that I know so many Members change, and a long list of other matters of huge importance
have had to endure over recent years. for the British economy and British society?
I voted to stay in the EU, but I am a democrat, and
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con):
that is why I will support the Government’s withdrawal
The right hon. Gentleman has spent the last 12 months
agreement today. I have supported every opportunity
claiming that the Prime Minister never wanted to get a
to take forward our departure from the EU since the
deal, and then he got one, and that the Prime Minister
referendum three years ago. Politics is not about was not serious, and therefore he had to produce a Bill
constructing ivory towers. It is not about trying to put to hamstring Parliament and stop it progressing. Can
our ideology on the table at every opportunity. It is he admit, just for once, that we have a deal—a deal that
about finding solutions to very difficult problems. That is going to happen this year—and use all his expertise
is why we are sent here to Parliament. The withdrawal and good services to rally round this Parliament, this
agreement is the start of the solution to one of the most Government and this country to make sure that we agree
difficult problems that our Parliament has faced in a it by the end of year, so that we can all move on at last?
generation. I urge Members from across the House to
reflect deeply on that before they cast their vote today, Hilary Benn: The Bill that the last Parliament passed
regardless of what their party leaders are saying, because did not hamstring the Prime Minister, because he achieved
I think the voice of the nation spoke last Thursday, and a renegotiation. However, to be fair, all he did was
we have to listen. accept 95% of his predecessor’s deal and replace the
10.34 am previous backstop with a backstop that had been offered
the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), but
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): It is a great rejected on grounds that were clearly set out by the
pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Basingstoke current Prime Minister to the Democratic Unionist
(Mrs Miller). I agree with her argument that we need to party conference in November 2018—namely, that he
be able to disagree agreeably, as I think President Obama would never, ever accept a border in the Irish sea, which
once put it. is what he has promptly now done, which reminds us
If the Secretary of State is looking for some consolation that it is not always wise to take the Prime Minister at
for his Department being abolished at the very moment his word.
that we leave the European Union, let me tell him that it
will also mean that he will no longer have the untrammelled Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I wonder whether
joy of appearing before the Brexit Select Committee. I my right hon. Friend has read the Government’s impact
thank all Members who have served on the Committee assessment for this Bill, which says at paragraph 241:
and our wonderful team of Clerks and advisers, who “Goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will
have supported us with their expertise. be required to complete both import declarations and Entry
At the heart of this Bill is a gamble—a gamble with Summary…Declarations,”
our nation’s economy. The Prime Minister has so much thereby flatly contradicting what the Prime Minister has
confidence in the Government’s ability to finalise a new been saying.
161 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 162
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Hilary Benn: My right hon. Friend makes an extremely The divisions it has created will not easily be healed:
powerful point. We have been told repeatedly that there many people still think that this is a terrible mistake
will be no border in the Irish sea; there is now going to that will weaken our economy and our influence in the
be a border in the Irish sea. That will have consequences world.
for the way in which trade is conducted. In the modern age, it is how we use our sovereignty
This Bill is also a gamble because of the clause that that will determine how well we can advance our interests
says that no Minister is able to apply for an extension. and protect our citizens. If we have learned anything
Quite why the Government need to legislate to prevent from the events of recent times, it is that if we are to
something from happening that they have already made deal with the great challenges we face as a world—climate
clear they have no intention of allowing to happen—an change, the movement of people around the globe,
extension to the transition period—escapes me, but I threats to peace and security, making sure that the
gently point out to the House that the point of no global economy works in the interests of all—we can do
return will be next June. Under the withdrawal agreement, it only by working together. We are about to walk away
if a further extension has not been agreed between the from one of the most important relationships that
parties by then—and the Government are ruling it enables us to do that. I say to the Government that we
out—there will be no possibility of extending the period. will hold them to account as the process develops and
I say to the Government that they will need to be really, unfolds.
really confident about how the negotiations are going
by June next year—not very far away—if they are to be Mr Speaker: I make an appeal to Members: if we all
certain that they will not need that additional time to take nine minutes, quite a few of you are not going to
get what they want. get in. Please—I have given an informal limit to give a
There is no doubt that the Prime Minister is looking bit of flexibility, but do not take advantage of Members
for a hard Brexit, because a free trade agreement of the who come later.
type he has put before the British people—and for
which, I grant him, he has won a mandate—has already 10.43 am
been assessed by the Government as the second worst Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker;
outcome for the economy after a no-deal Brexit. It is I hope to give some time back to the House by being
extraordinary that the House has still not been presented very brief. All I want to do is to try to put today’s debate
with an economic assessment of the single most important and Bill in their wider context, because they are so
decision that we are going to take and the nature of the hugely important to the future of this country.
future relationship—nothing; silence. History will record I simply want to make two points. The first is that
that that was an act of irresponsibility. those of us who voted and campaigned for remain
I say to the House—in particular to new Members on should respect the result of the referendum. Some of us
both sides, whom I congratulate on their election—that, tried to do that straight afterwards. We took the view
as these negotiations unfold, businesses that we represent that the British people had taken a decision and that
will be coming to us; they will want issues to be raised in those of us on the losing side of the argument should
the negotiations and will be concerned about the outcome make the best of that—do what we regarded as the best
of the negotiations. Some of the things they are looking for our country in the context of leaving. Sadly, many
for will not be consistent with the policy that the people on whose side I fought in that referendum campaign
Government have set out. This should not be about did not take that decision and have spent the past three
ideology; it is about the practical implications of having and a half years trying to subvert it. I have thought
thrown away—because that is what Brexit does—the throughout that, sadly, that was the wrong course for
best trading relationship we have with any countries in them to take.
the world. It is about what kind of new long-term A lot of the problems that we have faced in politics in
arrangements will be put in place, on which our jobs, our this country for the past few years stem from that wrong
factories and our communities depend. If the Government decision and the desire to continue fighting the last war.
get it wrong, it will be a question not of getting Brexit To those of my friends on both sides of the House who
done but of some industries being done over by Brexit. until now have not accepted the 2016 decision, I make
an appeal: now, after the general election result, please
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab) rose— accept the decision, please let us move on and please
accept that that game is over.
Hilary Benn: I give way for the last time, in view of the
time available. Caroline Lucas rose—
Matt Western: My right hon. Friend is making such a Damian Green: I will of course give way to one of my
powerful speech. Does he not agree that the great comrades in arms in that referendum.
concern for this place has to be that it was promised
that we would take back control? The greatest deceit of Caroline Lucas: I think that the right hon. Member is
all is the fact that there will be no scrutiny in this place in danger of rewriting history. Those of us who wanted
of any element of the trade deals and the impact they to go back to the people were not undermining democracy
will have on our economy. —more democracy does not undermine democracy.
What does undermine democracy is a Bill that is essentially
Hilary Benn: I agree with my hon. Friend: that is a an Executive power grab, completely deleting all the
matter of great regret. provisions that would have allowed for parliamentary
I come to my final point. Our leaving the European scrutiny. If he is standing up for democracy, will he
Union will create great cheer on the Government Benches, explain why is he happy about a Bill that is reducing
just as it will sadden many of us on the Labour side. democracy?
163 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 164
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Damian Green: I do not agree with the hon. Lady’s unless the EU consents to change it, so the EU has a
analysis of the Bill. Furthermore, it is impossible to say veto over changing the arrangements under the control
that we need a new referendum when we have not of that joint committee. Northern Ireland, therefore,
implemented the results of the first one; that has been will not quite be taking back control. The European
the central problem. I urge her and others to use all the Union will continue to have a significant say on key
energy and passion at their disposal to help us as a matters relating to Northern Ireland.
country to forge a new friendly relationship with our
fellow democracies in the rest of Europe. They are Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is clear that a
neighbouring countries, they are friends and they are number of issues will make Northern Ireland a less
democracies: we should be able to establish a new and Unionist region of the United Kingdom. Fishermen who
friendly relationship with them. That is my first point—an bring fish back to Portavogie will be subject to a tariff,
appeal to those who campaigned to remain. and the meat sector will also face tariffs. Does my right
My second point is an appeal to all those on both hon. Friend agree that Northern Ireland will end up
sides of the argument. We have to stop defining ourselves being less Unionist than Liverpool, Leicester, Manchester,
and each other simply as remainers or leavers. If we Newcastle and London, and that we should be the same
continue to define everyone purely by how they voted in as, not different from, everywhere else in the United
2016, we will never make progress as a Parliament or a Kingdom?
country. The last few years have been miserable for
democracy in this country. Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson: That brings me to my second
point. The Prime Minister has been clear that he wants
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab) rose— the United Kingdom to leave the European Union
as one nation, and over the past few days he has spoken
Damian Green: My attempt to be brief is clearly being often of his one nation Conservatism. Northern Ireland
foiled, but of course I will give way. is my part of the United Kingdom and, in leaving the
European Union, I want the Prime Minister to treat it
Alison McGovern: Does the right hon. Gentleman the same as the other parts. We want to hear how the
think that his party’s conduct in the general election is Government are going to achieve that, given the withdrawal
consistent with the test that he just set? agreement’s special provisions for Northern Ireland and
how they will impact on and change the relationship
Damian Green: Yes, I do. In a sense, it is less important between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United
that I think that than that, as is quite clear as I look at Kingdom.
this House today, the British people think that. I do not
think that that is a fruitful avenue for the hon. Lady to We welcome the withdrawal agreement’s provision for
pursue. the Assembly to have a say, but I am not so sure that it
will operate in the way described earlier by the Prime
As I was saying, the last few years have been miserable Minister. He said that the special arrangements would
for democracy in this country. The more we hark back continue only if the Assembly supported them, but I
and fight the old battles, the longer that misery will think it is the other way around: they will continue
persist. I hope that this Bill, this debate and the fact that unless the Assembly stops them. That would require a
we will have left by the end of next month mean that vote in the Assembly. The Government know that we
Members on both sides of the old European argument have issues with how that vote would be exercised and
and both sides of the House take the chance to move what it would mean for the principle of consent at the
on, so that we can begin the healing process that this heart of the Belfast agreement. We want to continue our
country desperately needs. discussion with the Government about how that will
Mr Speaker: Sir Jeffrey Donaldson will speak next, after operate in practice. We want the Assembly to have a say,
which there will be a maiden speech with no interruptions. but we also want to ensure that that say can be exercised
in a fair manner that respects the principle of consent,
as set out in the Belfast agreement.
10.48 am
Of course, we hope that what is agreed in the future
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): We relationship will negate the need for many of the special
supported Brexit. We want Brexit to happen, and we arrangements for Northern Ireland. The joint committee
acknowledge and recognise that the Government have will have a say on that, however, and it is not a given
won a mandate to take forward their withdrawal agreement. that all of the future relationship arrangements will
But there is a major contradiction at the heart of that apply to Northern Ireland. We want to continue that
agreement that causes us great concern. discussion with the Government, because we want Northern
At one level, the agreement does say that Northern Ireland to benefit fully from the future relationship and
Ireland should continue to have unfettered access to the any free trade agreement arranged with the European
rest of the UK for trade. But then there are customs Union. We have a land border with the European Union
arrangements that inhibit our ability to have that unfettered and an agri-food sector that trades across it, and we
access. That is our major concern—one that we hope recognise that arrangements have to be made to facilitate
the Government can address. that ongoing trade, but we do not want barriers against
The Prime Minister talks about taking back control, trade with the rest of our own country. That is absolutely
and that is what we want. Yet for Northern Ireland, essential.
there is to be a new joint committee between the European That brings me to my third point: the customs
Union and the United Kingdom that will make major arrangements. The Prime Minister has said that there
decisions about Northern Ireland. In a sense, there is to will be no checks on goods going from Great Britain to
be shared control of Northern Ireland on key issues. It Northern Ireland, or from Northern Ireland to Great
is also the case that that arrangement cannot change Britain. As the Leader of the Opposition reminded us, a
165 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 166
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Treasury report says clearly that there will be checks in his renegotiated and new deal. The Bill is critical. It
and customs controls on goods travelling between Northern provides all the legal protections for the 3 million EU
Ireland and Great Britain, to ensure that the correct citizens and the legal provisions for the implementation
tariffs are applied and that goods meet EU standards. It period, the financial settlement and the Northern Ireland
is clear that those checks will take place. We want to protocol. Legally, formally and technically, it brings an
work with the Government to mitigate the impact on end to our membership of the European Union.
Northern Ireland business of the requirement for those I believe, however, that there is another reason why
checks. We want to hear more on that from the Government. this is possibly the most fundamentally important Bill
We will see what we can do in Committee with regard to that this Parliament will consider—namely, trust. It is
the commitment in the agreement and that made by the through the passage of this Bill that we will begin the
Prime Minister that there will be unfettered access in process of rebuilding trust with the British people,
relation to trade between Northern Ireland and Great honour our solemn vow to get Brexit done, and take the
Britain. first step outwards. And when we take that first step, we
We would like to be able to support what is happening, will do so confidently. As the Prime Minister said
but we have grave concerns about the potential impact during the campaign, the first step is often the hardest.
on the Northern Ireland, where economic prosperity The first step has been difficult for our nation. It has
goes hand in hand with political stability. The peace been fraught with argument, indecision and doubt, and
process cannot just be about the politics of Northern will be taken later than anticipated. However, when we
Ireland; it has to be about prosperity for Northern take that first step, through the enactment of this Bill,
Ireland as well. The Prime Minister has said that he we will do so confidently and looking forward with
wants all of the United Kingdom to prosper. That has optimism, in the knowledge that it is what millions of
to include Northern Ireland. We need to ensure that people around the country want us to do, that it is
these arrangements work for Northern Ireland and do borne out of legitimacy and integrity, and that it derives
not become a barrier to trade between Northern Ireland from a noble aspiration for sovereignty and out of a
and Great Britain. heartfelt call for freedom—[Interruption.]—something
that Opposition Members who still live in denial about
10.55 am the referendum seek to deny.
Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con): I welcome you to Historically and traditionally, the UK has been viewed
your place, Mr Speaker; I am delighted to see you around the world as a beacon of justice, a symbol of
sitting there. Given that many of us are talking about fair play and the home of democracy. That has been
manifestos, I wish you well in delivering your manifesto called into question over the last year. Through the
commitments to stand up for Back Benchers and to enactment of this Bill, we will be able to reclaim our
uphold democracy. I know that you will discharge your reputation as the home of democracy, to seize the
duties with aplomb. opportunity to write our history, of which our successors
can be proud, and to restore our credibility as a nation
This is my first contribution in the Chamber since my where people can trust their politicians and a nation
promotion to the position of mum. [HON. MEMBERS: that does not break its promises.
“Hear, hear.”] I thank my hon. Friend the Member for
Wycombe (Mr Baker), who served as my proxy during Several hon. Members rose—
my maternity leave, my wonderful staff, and the
Conservative party for its support over the past six months. Mr Speaker: We now come to a maiden speech. I
A general election was not necessarily part of the maternity remind Members that there should be no interruptions.
leave plan, but baby Braverman threw himself into the I call Claire Hanna.
campaign and, I am sure, was critical in winning over
some of those undecided voters. 11 am
Can the people trust their politicians? That might Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): I anticipated
seem like a trite question, but it is pertinent in the having a wee bit more time to craft my maiden speech
context of Brexit. As the Prime Minister has said, that and to reflect our outlook. But, put simply, Brexit is an
precious contract of trust between citizen and state, emergency and I was elected to do all I can to mitigate
between voter and politician, has been stretched to the impact of Brexit for the people I represent. Also, as
breaking point over the past year. Pledges, promises a Northern Irish politician and a mum of three, the
and manifesto commitments all evaporated in the face opportunity to speak for five minutes uninterrupted
of an obstructionist Parliament, where the majority of was too exciting.
politicians thought they knew better than the majority I am aided in making this speech by some of the
of the British people. That Parliament wanted to stop convention around Members’ first opportunity to address
Brexit and succeeded in doing so. It let our country down the House. I send my very best wishes to my predecessor,
and in doing so broke faith with the British people. Let Emma Little Pengelly. It is fair to say that we operate at
us not diminish the severity of that breach of trust, for opposite ends of the political spectrum, but I know that
it is only thanks to the trust that people place in us that she operated with hard work and diligence during her
we have even the right to set foot in this Chamber. It is time in this House.
only at their behest that we serve. As the Prime Minister It is my great pleasure to be able to speak about my
has said, we are the servants and they are our masters. home, South Belfast, which is in many respects an
I hope that we never, ever forget that again. exemplar for what Northern Ireland—and, indeed, any
When I served as a Brexit Minister, I was responsible community—can be. It is diverse, well integrated and
for drafting the original Bill. I am very glad to see that forward looking, and is doing reasonably well economically.
much of that work has survived and that this new It is a place where difference is genuinely respected. We
version reflects the changes secured by the Prime Minister do not all have the same views or the same vision for the
167 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 168
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Claire Hanna] conflict resolution project anywhere in the world, and
those of us particularly affected by conflict have a duty
future in South Belfast, but we do work the common to reflect its principles. I am afraid that our concerns
ground. I am deeply grateful to all those in South have been dismissed by those of you who will never have
Belfast who in enormous numbers elected me to serve to live with the consequences of these actions.
them last week. I will do my best to do that every day, as The cross-community and cross-party coalition of
well as to encourage all that is good in our constituency support in Northern Ireland that exists to maximise our
and shine a light on all that needs to change. access to the EU includes business, trade unions, agriculture,
South Belfast, like Northern Ireland as a whole, is a retail and most of civil society. In fact, in that way it
place that overwhelmingly voted against Brexit. The mirrors the coalition of support for the Good Friday
pro-European majority of Members in Northern Ireland, agreement, which was actually inspired by and modelled
I must tell the House, is a more diverse and united on the EU’s founding principles. It was about being able
political movement than I believe we have ever seen in to compromise without losing your identity, without
our troubled history. For Northern Ireland in particular, sacrificing your principles and without sacrificing your
Brexit has sharpened all the lines that the Good Friday aspiration.
agreement was designed to soften—around identity, Neither the EU nor the Good Friday agreement is
borders and sovereignty. We should have been spending about nations, and neither is about territory. They are
the last few years talking about reconciliation, regeneration, about relationships and working together for the common
social justice and equality; that is what all political action good. They are about seeing challenges and finding
should really be about. Instead, we have spent morning, solutions. But we know that the challenges of the present
noon and night talking about Brexit—a problem that and the challenges of the next century are global: the
did not need to exist and which, particularly in Northern climate emergency, tax justice, war and humanitarian
Ireland, reopens old wounds and limits our horizons. relief. Those challenges need international co-operation,
Brexit sundered the body politic and the social consensus solidarity and partnership, not isolation and retreat.
across these islands in unimaginable ways. It fed off The world is getting smaller and our responses need to
people who felt lost and disenfranchised in the political get bigger. Brexit prevents young people from creating a
system, and I fear that it will leave them feeling much world with a big horizon; that is a generational injustice
worse. It is one of the reasons that Northern Ireland has that we are overseeing.
now been without a Government for over 1,000 days, We will vote against the narrow and restrictive view
leaving Members such as myself and my hon. Friend of the future articulated in this Bill. We will work with
the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) with no other fair-minded people of all parties to limit, by amendment,
forum through which to hold Government to account. the damage as best we can. We will seek to minimise the
The Government relied on the fatigue that people had damage to the Good Friday agreement, which, for those
about Brexit—weary to get Brexit done, without a of us in Northern Ireland, is the only viable pathway to
meaningful debate about the decisions that are going to a better future, under whichever constitutional arrangement
be required, or the impact on our two islands and their people desire that future. That agreement is at its core
intertwined futures. I believe and fear that the political about relationships, in three strands: within Northern
bluster of slogans is eventually going to have to meet reality. Ireland; between the north and south of Ireland; and
I am glad that, due to the solidarity of the EU 27 between our Ireland and yours. I deeply regret that
—and, indeed, Members from across the House—this Brexit in any form will damage the relationships in each
withdrawal agreement means that there will not be a of those strands, and I implore Members of this House
border on the island of Ireland, but I deeply regret that to work with us to limit that damage.
it creates an economic border in the Irish sea.
From the day and hour that Brexit was conceived, it 11.7 pm
was very clear to many of us that, wherever it landed, Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I
Brexit would create the borders of the past. As those of congratulate you, Mr Speaker, on resuming the Chair,
us on the island of Ireland know, Brexit and borders and wish you the very best of luck in your office.
have both a practical and symbolic significance. Make I heartily congratulate the new hon. Member for
no mistake about it: there is no good way to do Brexit. Belfast South (Claire Hanna) on a very fine and fluent
But this version is markedly worse than its previous maiden speech. It is never easy to make a maiden speech
iterations. It creates barriers to trade and introduces and it is certainly not easy to make it just one or two
new levels of bureaucratic complexity. It is silent on days after taking the Oath, especially in a high-profile
workers’ rights, and on social justice and the rebalancing debate such as this. She spoke clearly and put her point
of the global economy. It will damage Britain’s economy. of view. I appreciate the manner in which she touched
It will cause significant collateral damage to Ireland—north on her predecessor, Emma Little Pengelly, with whom I
and south. It will further erode the resources available had a very good relationship and probably more in
to public services, which are already reeling from a common politically. The hon. Lady could also have
decade of austerity that has—certainly where I live, and touched on her predecessor but one from her own party,
I suspect here too—decimated the health service, gripped Alasdair McDonnell, who I worked with closely for
working families and emboldened inequality. three years when I was the shadow Secretary of State
Beyond the economy, Brexit up-ends the delicate for Northern Ireland and for two years when I was the
balance that in Northern Ireland has allowed us to real Secretary of State.
imagine our shared and equal future together. We in Above all, I heartily congratulate the hon. Lady on
Northern Ireland know the value of the EU. As my turning up. It is most important that her point of view
political hero and predecessor in this House, John Hume, for the future of Ireland is represented in this House.
so often said, the EU is the greatest peacebuilding and She quite rightly mentioned John Hume. Through the
169 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 170
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
most terrible years, the Social Democratic and Labour I was proud to represent those people eight days ago,
party Members bravely made their case about where when the windscreen wipers were on double wipe, and there
they would like Ireland to go. They were looking to a were queues in the rain in Oswestry and Market Drayton.
united Ireland down the road, but they always turned All my small villages said that it was unprecedented. At
up here and participated in local, national and European about lunchtime—in fairness, my wife got there first—we
elections; they always participated fully in the democratic twigged that it was a rerun of the referendum. Those
process. I am therefore pleased to see the hon. Lady and people had been abused. They had been traduced. They
the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) back had been bombarded with propaganda leading up to
here. They will not be at all surprised that I do not agree the referendum and after it. Since then, they have been
with them, but I hope that we will be working together. told that they were thick. They were told that they were
I congratulate her on her fine speech at a very key racist. We in the ERG were told that we were fascists,
moment. Nazis and extremists. All we wanted was to honour the
Let me pick up on some of the points the hon. Lady referendum, the core of which is that laws and taxes
made, because I did not entirely agree with her. I see a imposed upon British citizens would be levied by
great future for Northern Ireland post Brexit. She and I democratically appointed politicians—elected politicians
would entirely agree that there is never, ever going to be of this House. If they passed good laws, they would be
a hard border; that is never, ever going to happen, and re-elected. If they passed fair taxes and spent the money
there is no need for it to happen. I spent some time well, they would be re-elected. If they did not, they
working on this issue last year. I would like the hon. would be chucked out by the electors—a very simple
Lady to look at the concept of mutual enforcement, principle, which we have taught the world about for
whereby we would recognise the standards required by centuries. That is what this is about. It is staggering to
the market into which we were selling, and would make hear Members this morning still quibbling and cavilling
it a legal obligation to ensure that our suppliers matched about this. Four times the people have spoken. How
those standards. In the same way, those selling into many more times do they have to speak to get it? They
Northern Ireland would have to match our standards. voted to leave. This Bill means that they will leave, and I
That would not breach the point of sovereignty, which am delighted for it.
is key to this debate; it will be entirely in our national
hands, but we would respect those standards. If she and Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the right hon.
the hon. Member for Foyle would like to look at that, Gentleman give way?
we might find a mutually beneficial way forward, because
like her, one of my main worries about the Bill is the Mr Paterson: No; I am looking at the clock.
concept of any sort of barrier down the Irish sea, which I touched on my fears in relation to Northern Ireland,
is a clear breach of the Acts of Union—to be exact, and I want briefly to mention fishing, on which the
article VI of the Acts of Union 1800, which said that Prime Minister gave me a splendid answer. In 2005, the
there would be no taxes, barriers or impediments to Conservative party fought an election on my Green
trade between what was then Ireland and Great Britain. Paper, which established that the common fisheries
I congratulate the hon. Lady and look forward to policy is a biological, environmental, economic and
working with her. social disaster. We need to replace it and take back
I touched on the central issue of this debate, which is complete control of the exclusive economic zone and all
democracy. We went through this endlessly in the last our resources, and then on an annual basis, in an
Parliament. Every week I came down here and thought, amicable manner like other maritime nations, negotiate
“It can’t get worse,” and it did. It is very simple. In the reciprocal deals on quota. That is the way ahead, but
2015 election campaign, David Cameron promised that this is a day for democracy.
if there was a Conservative majority, he would deliver
an in/out, decisive referendum. The people would be David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Will the right hon.
given the power; they would decide, and whatever they Gentleman give way?
decided—remain or leave— Parliament would honour.
That was then endorsed throughout the referendum Mr Paterson: No; others want to speak. We are
debates. It was made very clear by the then Foreign delivering what the people wanted four times, and I am
Secretary, who has now left the House, that the referendum delighted to support the Bill.
was decisive—we, the MPs, are currently sovereign, but
we will give you, the people, the power to decide this 11.14 am
issue. It was binary. There was no talk about trade deals
or crashing out. It was remain or leave. Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab):
That was then endorsed in the general election in I intend to be as brief as I can, not least because the Bill
2017, when the two main parties got over 80% of the before us is, in essence, the one that we debated in
vote. My right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead principle back in October. I also do not intend to delve
(Mrs May) is not here today, but the Conservative party into the various ways in which the Government have
got the second largest number of seats in British history revised the legislation and abandoned their previous
until this recent election. There was a further endorsement. commitments on workers’ rights, parliamentary scrutiny
The people were given another bite to try to get the and oversight, and child refugees. There will be time
message across at the European elections this summer, enough for those changes to be debated in Committee. I
in which, amazingly, the Conservative party managed want to focus my brief remarks on the purpose and
to come fifth behind the Greens, because our then intent of the deal that this legislation will give effect to.
withdrawal agreement was so unpalatable. The people There is no question but that it did its job, but after
have now had a fourth bite, and I am very proud of 31 January, the slogan “Get Brexit done” will be exposed
those people. as the fiction that it is, because when this Bill becomes
171 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 172
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Matthew Pennycook] chance today to signal our clear opposition to it and to
ensure that the deal before us and its consequences are
law, as it will, it will not mean that Brexit is done, and wholly owned by the Conservative party.
every single hon. and right hon. Member on the The deal before us was a bad deal for our country in
Conservative Benches who parroted that line during October when the Prime Minister agreed to it. It remains
the recent election campaign knows full well that that is a bad deal today, and I am afraid that the scale of the
the case. Brexit is a process, not an act, and the passage Government’s victory last week has done nothing to
of this legislation and the full implementation of the alter that fact or my very firm conviction that the right
agreement by both parties is only the end of the beginning thing to do today is to vote against it in principle.
of that process and a prelude to a far more challenging
phase of it.
In that next phase, the threat of a no-deal cliff edge 11.19 pm
will remain a distinct possibility, but it is not inevitable. Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker,
There is, in my view, no chance that a comprehensive for calling me so early in the debate.
partnership will be concluded before the end of the
transition period in December, but there is a chance Mr Speaker: Don’t get too used to it.
that a free trade agreement can be concluded in that
time. All it will require, of course, is a multitude of Rachel Maclean: I was just congratulating myself on
concessions from the Government—concessions that putting my tick in the right box to vote for you, Mr Speaker.
the Prime Minister will no doubt dress up as victories, It is indeed wonderful to see you in the Chair.
just as he did with all those concessions he made to Congratulations on your election, and I hope that it
secure his deal in October. The reason why I do not rule ushers in the start of a brave new Parliament, not just
out the possibility that a trade deal might be secured in for me and my own speeches, but, of course, for all of
less than 12 months exposes precisely the kind of agreement us, and for the country.
that the Government are aiming for.
If we set aside the very serious implications of this In the general election that took place only just over a
deal for Northern Ireland and the constitutional integrity week ago—which seems incredible—I was returned to
of the United Kingdom, the deal struck in October was this place with more than 63% of the vote, the largest
the product of a conscious political decision on the part share ever received in the fantastic constituency of
of this Government to break with the approach of their Redditch since its formation in 1997. It exceeded even
predecessor and abandon the possibility—and it was the vote share of Jacqui Smith, the former Labour
only ever a possibility, not a guarantee—of a trading Home Secretary, when she represented the constituency
relationship premised on a close alignment with the EU, so ably. That, I think, constitutes an overwhelming
in favour of guaranteeing a more distant one. Ministers mandate for me to get Brexit done, and then move on to
are apt to label their objective for the future economic the priorities on which my constituents want me to focus
relationship as a “best in class” free trade agreement. on their behalf. One of those priorities is, of course,
That phrase is entirely meaningless. The deal that the returning services to the Alex hospital. New Members,
legislation before us seeks to give effect to will set us on you will hear that again—hint, hint.
a path toward, at best, I fear, the most basic form of free I think it fair to say, along with my colleagues who
trade agreement possible—one likely to be focused only were also elected in 2017, that we have had a pretty
on tariffs and quotas in goods trade, and one that will miserable time of it. All of us entered the House full of
therefore necessarily involve only minimal coverage of the passion that my wonderful new colleagues sitting
services and significant non-tariff barriers on trade. near me clearly feel. We were eager to do our best not
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds just for our constituents but for the whole country, but
Central (Hilary Benn) alluded to, voting for this legislation we have not been able to fulfil what we were sent to
today will leave the door open for the hardest form of Parliament to do. I believe that, as a Member with the
Brexit possible, short of leaving the EU without an privilege to sit on these Benches, I am a servant of my
agreement at all—a Brexit that will entail a decisive constituents. It is not my job to tell them that they were
break with the EU single market and its customs union, wrong, and that they did not know what they were
judicial framework and regulations. As the Government’s voting for. I voted remain, but at the end of the day we
own economic analysis of previous deals makes clear, it have to respect democracy. People who are on the
will have a profoundly negative impact on our economy wrong side of arguments just need to move on, and,
for years to come. We may not feel those economic finally, we have a chance to do that.
consequences immediately. Indeed, there is every chance I must admit that when the Prime Minister set out on
that we will see a surge in investment in the months his path of first trying to reopen the withdrawal agreement
ahead, but the harm—discernible or not to those it will and get rid of the backstop and then going for a general
impact on—will be felt and will take its toll in every election, I thought to myself, “He has an uphill struggle
constituency and every community across these isles in front of him.” I really wondered whether he would be
over the coming decades. able to do it, given the state of the Parliament that we
I do not believe that a Brexit of the kind that this had at the time, but I think that what he has done is take
legislation will facilitate is the right way forward for our a leaf out of the British Army engineers’ book. They
country or for those I represent. Indeed, I believe that it have a saying when faced with a seemingly unsurmountable
is a profound error. Each of those Members here today challenge: “We will get it done, whether it can be done
who share that view—indeed, each of us who served in or not.” I think that that is what the Prime Minister has
the last Parliament—will no doubt continue to question done, and I want to thank him for returning all of us
whether we could have done more to avert this outcome, here, and for breaking the deadlock and allowing us to
but those of us who were returned last week have a do our job of serving the people. We have a refreshed
173 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 174
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Parliament. We have a new intake who are full of passion reality of Brexit. The Chancellor flatly refused to publish
and energy and ideas to transform our whole country, any Treasury analysis of the Prime Minister’s deal when
and we can finally do that. I wrote to him before the election in my then capacity as
I can think of no better way in which to finish this interim Chair of the Treasury Committee. He also
brief session of Parliament than to wish everyone a refused to appear, or to send any Minister to appear,
very, very merry Christmas, including you, Mr Speaker, before the Committee. It is also difficult to see how the
the Clerks and all the Doorkeepers, and all the staff kind of Brexit that the Prime Minister wants to pursue
who have worked so hard to make us all feel welcome. It is in any way compatible with the wider promises made
was only two years ago that I was here for the first time, by the Conservatives during the election campaign. The
and I remember how confusing it was, but the staff are Government say that they are committed to increasing
so patient and so lovely. public spending—spending on the NHS, education and
Let me end by saying, in case anyone was in any the police, at least—while also keeping tax, national
doubt, that I will definitely be voting in the Aye Lobby insurance and VAT either flat or falling and reducing
to honour the democratic wishes of the lovely people of debt as a proportion of GDP over the course of this
Redditch who have put me here—and by wishing everyone Parliament. What choices the Government make, and
a very merry Brexmas. what promises they break, remain to be seen.
I am truly sorry that although parties offering a final
11.24 am say on any Brexit deal won 53% of the vote in the
general election and although all the public polling
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North)
indicated that the majority of the British public thought
(Lab): During the election period I spoke to many
that it had been wrong to vote to leave the EU back in
voters, and I fully appreciated the desire expressed by
2016, the voting public will not be able to have their say
some—whether they had voted leave or remain—for
on the final Brexit deal. Indeed, that was precisely why
closure on Brexit. It was very clever electioneering to
the Prime Minister wanted a Brexit general election
convey the impression that this was simply a small
rather than a confirmatory referendum, despite having
foreign policy issue that could be wrapped up relatively
got a withdrawal Bill through Parliament at the last
quickly so that Ministers could get on with bread-and-butter
attempt before Parliament was dissolved.
domestic issues. However, we are no longer electioneering.
It is time for reality to bite, and the reality is that this We are where we are, as they say. The make-up of
Bill is just the start of years of uncertainty about our Parliament has changed dramatically, and we will now
future. Rather than getting Brexit done, it gets Brexit begun. be leaving the EU at the end of January. However, the
There are still so many issues to be resolved, and they anxieties of the people whom we represent in the north-east
are incredibly thorny ones. The most fundamental question about what Brexit means for their jobs and their livelihoods
is whether securing a United States or a European have not changed. The analysis showing that the north-east
Union trade deal is more important to the Government. will be hit hardest of all has not changed, and nor has
Both will require some sort of regulatory alignment, the threat that Brexit poses to the 63% of north-east
and the Prime Minister needs to decide what he is exporters who rely on access to EU markets.
prepared to concede—on food, fisheries, labour and Brexit is not going to be done. The challenges of the
environmental provisions, just for starters. next stage are infinitely more complex than those of the
The Government must also decide what kind of say, first. I will continue to represent the views, the anxieties
if any, devolved Governments will have in respect of and the interests of the people whom I represent here in
trade agreements. If the Scottish Government are excluded Parliament, and to hold the Government to account on
from negotiations, what will that mean for our Union? this monumental change for the country, which I fear
We have already seen and heard about the challenges that many will come to regret.
posed to Northern Ireland by the proposals to place a Several hon. Members rose—
border in the Irish sea, which was something that the
Prime Minister promised not to do. Some time ago, Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): Order. Before
immediately after the 2016 referendum, I asked what we proceed, I remind the House that Mr Speaker has
the Government would do to ensure that regional voices sought to impose a voluntary six-minute time limit.
and concerns were heard as part of the Brexit negotiations.
The answer that I received from the Prime Minister was
nothing, and I have little hope that it will be any more 11.29 am
encouraging today. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): It is a
Those are really big questions, and that is without pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newcastle upon
even mentioning long-term tariffs, access to the labour Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), and it is also a
market, the state aid regime, access to fishing waters, pleasure to have heard some really excellent speeches
regulations—across the whole economy but particularly already, most notably the maiden speech made by the
on food—the priority given to sectors such as farming, hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna). It was a
financial services, and automotive, environmental and pleasure to hear the speech made by my hon. Friend the
labour policy, data flows and privacy issues, intellectual Member for Fareham (Suella Braverman), who spoke
property, access to diverse EU regulatory programmes, powerfully about trust.
and much, much more. The Prime Minister has committed In a sense, we are ending this year very much as we
himself to doing all that in just 12 months or risking started it: with a debate and a vote on an EU withdrawal
another no-deal cliff edge. agreement. As I did in January, I will be voting in
Just as the election does not change the fact that support of the withdrawal agreement, first and foremost
Brexit will continue to dominate our politics for some because I am a democrat. I believe in honouring the
time to come, it also does not change the economic outcome of the 2016 referendum and I will support
175 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 176
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Stephen Crabb] Members of Parliament went to their constituencies to
tell their leave voters on a Saturday that they really
measures to take the United Kingdom out of the EU. wanted to get on with Brexit. They then came back here
I also believe that how we leave the EU really matters. I on a Monday morning to find and use every trick in the
believe in an orderly exit. I have been consistent in my book to block Brexit.
support and preference for leaving with a deal. We have I am very clear that the constituents of Preseli
what I think is an eminently supportable deal in front Pembrokeshire have put me here to do a job. Passing the
of us. Bill today is a really significant, first positive step forward
We are also ending this year in a very different place to implement the outcome of the 2016 referendum. I
from where we started. All week, there has been a sense believe that to vote against it would be a vote for
of a fresh start around Westminster and of a page being continuing all that we saw during 2019: a winter that
turned. I appreciate that that might not be felt equally never ends, and never reaches Christmas. My appeal to
on both sides of the Chamber, but I hope that this will colleagues on both sides of the House is to get behind
be a fresh start for the whole House of Commons, with the Bill and show the country that this new House of
a new sense of purpose and direction. I believe that Commons has a real sense of direction and purpose for
voters last week put us here to bring a fresh sense of the whole United Kingdom.
purpose and direction. Voting for the Bill today will
send a very powerful signal back to the British public—back 11.34 am
to our voters—that we have heard their message and
that we are bringing that sense of direction and purpose. Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): I am a first-generation
Make no mistake about it: for those who were not in European migrant. When I came here in 1990, the
this House during the course of this year, 2019 has been passport I was holding was not an issue. I was welcomed
a year of sclerosis. We took the British public on a and allowed to thrive. Our four children were born and
tortuous journey of suffocating delays, endless and brought up here. I worked as a teacher and paid my
repetitious debates, and votes that took us nowhere. taxes. I was, like millions of EU citizens, a part of
There was no substantial outcome from all the hours British society. I became a councillor. My residents first
that we spent in the Chamber on this very subject. The thought me a bit different, but they soon accepted that
British public turned out at polling stations a week ago my background did not matter and that I represented
to give us their verdict on that. Very quietly and very them well. I became a British citizen and stood for
firmly they said, “Enough now.” It is time for action Parliament. Then came Brexit. EU citizens became the
and decision. centre of a cynical political ploy to divert attention
from a failure to invest in public services through an
We have a Government who have been put here to attempt to pin blame on EU migration. Suddenly, I was
legislate to take us out of the EU in an orderly and wondering, “Am I not welcome here? Do they mean
responsible way. We have tested the patience of the British me? And if they do not mean me, who do they mean?”
public quite enough. They send us here to do a job. Yes, My wonderful electorate in Bath has always looked
they expect us to scrutinise. They expect us to ask difficult beyond my background and has just re-elected me with
and challenging questions of the Government, even a huge majority. I feel truly humbled, but Bath is special.
when their Ministers sit on our side of the House. They
expect us to work hard at that, but they do not expect us
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con):
to come here and wilfully block a democratic mandate
Will the hon. Lady give way?
such as the one they gave in the 2016 referendum.

Colum Eastwood: May I just point out—I know it Wera Hobhouse: The relentless rhetoric and the hostile
was not said very often in the previous Parliament—that environment created around EU free movement has
the people of Northern Ireland voted to remain? In wounded EU citizens to the core. The Government’s
every election since, they have reasserted their rejection newly found but false words about our “European friends”
of Brexit. Government Members talk about one nation are failing to repair the damage. EU citizens understand
and all that, but will they recognise that Northern that this Tory Government do mean them, and they are
Ireland and Scotland have once again, and very loudly, leaving.
rejected this Brexit and every other kind of Brexit you
could possibly come up with? Daniel Kawczynski: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Stephen Crabb: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Wera Hobhouse: No smooth words can easily heal the
intervention. In fact, I was going to come on to make deep wounds that have been created here and abroad. I
precisely the point that as well as being a democrat, I feel differently about this country now than I did when
am also a Unionist. The election results in Northern I first arrived, and so do millions of true Brits who, like
Ireland and Scotland, which reaffirmed the referendum me, are grieving for Britain’s lost soul and its shift
votes there, present a challenge to those in government towards small-minded nationalism. They are embarrassed
about how to take Brexit forward. I am satisfied that we by a mean and self-centred political class and its timid
are dealing with Northern Ireland very sensitively and I retreat behind its own borders.
think we have work to do on how we address the issue We have talked a lot about democracy, and not just
for Scotland, but I come back to the point I was here. The election produced a result: we will leave the
making: we have been sent here to do a job. Voters— EU at the end of January. My party and I fought hard
members of the public—do not expect us to block and we fought well. All through the last Parliament,
democracy. They do not expect to see their Members of with only a handful of MPs, we stood up for those who
Parliament trying to use every trick in the book to block did not want to leave—nearly half of all people in this
Brexit, but that was precisely what happened in 2019. country. We demanded a people’s vote, which the Tories
177 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 178
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
obstinately denied us. We brought thousands upon stops us being subjugated and shackled by Europe and
thousands of like-minded citizens on to our streets. having rules imposed on us by other member states,
That, too, is democracy. allowing us to govern ourselves. It is about law making.
That is why, after a free choice by the people of this
Daniel Kawczynski: Will the hon. Lady give way? country, we have been returned to this House. I congratulate
the people with every fibre of my being for making their
Wera Hobhouse: I have said no—[Interruption.] I
decision so emphatically.
have said no.
The reality is that this is a historic moment. It compares
In a democracy, a ruling party needs a functioning
with the decision that was taken in 1660 when the
Opposition. Indeed, without opposition, democracy is
Cromwellian period ended and we returned to parliamentary
dead. My passionate belief that the UK is better off as a
government. We re-established parliamentary government
proud member inside the EU, rather than as an irrelevant
in 1688. Then there were the Corn Laws. The working
outsider, has not melted away overnight. I will not cease
man was given the right to vote in 1867. In May 1940, we
to voice this opinion here and outside Parliament. That
decided that we would not be governed by any other
is my democratic right. Whoever is trying to deny me or
country. We defeated Hitler and made it clear that we
anybody else that democratic right is the anti-democrat,
would be a self-governing nation.
not me.
I understand that now the battle to stop Brexit is Daniel Kawczynski: I am very grateful to my hon.
over. For me, we do not only leave the EU; we leave an Friend for giving way. Will he acknowledge that there
ideal that I had of this country. I was brought up in are hundreds of thousands of EU citizens in this country—
post-war Germany, a country that was recovering from people like me who have come from Europe to settle
the ravages of a brutal dictatorship. Britain was a here—who voted for Brexit and believe in Brexit? The
beacon of democracy, liberal values and respect for hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) seeks somehow
every human life. British people then had the guts to to represent all of the EU citizens, but there are hundreds
fight inhumanity, brutality and illiberalism. The mission of thousands of us who stand by and are proud of the
to bring functioning democracies, based on human decision that this country has taken to regain her sovereignty.
rights, civil liberties and the rule of law, to the rest of
the world has been a historic British mission. In its long Sir William Cash: I agree with every word that my
history, Britain has always been global, internationalist, hon. Friend has said. For me, this has been a long
outward-looking and inclusive. Britain understood that journey. My first amendment on the question of sovereignty
its national interest was tightly woven into the interests was in June 1986 during the Single European Act. I was
of countries around them. By saying goodbye to the not even allowed to debate it. I was cut off at the knees
EU, we say goodbye to those uniquely British political by one of your predecessors, Mr Deputy Speaker, for
instincts and values. daring to suggest that the matter should be debated.
I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues will vote against The fact is that we then moved on to the Maastricht
the withdrawal agreement, because we believe that it is treaty, and I had the honour and privilege to help run
damaging to our economy, our security, our international and then lead the rebellion that was needed to stop
reputation and our ability to tackle the global climate European government, which is what that treaty was all
emergency, and that it will put a border in the Irish sea about. Then we moved on to Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon.
and threaten our family of nations. Most of all, we will As I survey the landscape of the enormous change
lose something profoundly British: being international, that is taking place today, I see exhausted volcanos of
and leading in the continuous fight for liberal values, former Prime Ministers who have been constantly in the
human rights and a rules-based international order. We media telling us that we got Brexit wrong. No, we did
Liberal Democrats will always fight for that. not. Furthermore, not only did we get it right, but the
British people 100% know that this is one of the great
11.40 am moments in British history. We have been shackled by
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): Having listened to the European Union. Yes, we will continue to trade with
what has just been said, I am bound to say that it is a it. Yes, we will have global trading. Yes, we will have our
complete inversion of what leaving the European Union democracy and our sovereignty back. This is a great
is all about. The European Union is utterly undemocratic. moment in our history. I can only say that, as far as I am
As someone who has been Chairman of the European concerned, the most important clauses in this Bill are
Scrutiny Committee for 10 years, and a member of that 29 and 38. One gives the right to the European Scrutiny
Committee for 34 years, I can say that I do know a tiny Committee to determine whether matters of national
bit about what has been going on. The reality is that vital interest need to be protected from legislation,
legislation is made in the Council of Ministers behind which may well be brought in against us by the European
closed doors by majority voting, in addition to that Union from behind closed doors during the transition
which is made by consensus and without even a transcript. period. For example, the ports regulation, which was
Fortunately, the people of this country will be able to imposed on us only a few years ago, was objected to and
hear and see what is done in this Chamber today, which absolutely resisted not only by Members of the Committee
they certainly could not do in the Council of Ministers. but by all the trade unions and port employers.
It is a complete travesty to suggest that, in some shape Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings)
or another, we are little Englanders or nationalistic; we (Con): And by me.
are nothing of the kind.
This is a watershed moment in our history. This Bill, Sir William Cash: And by the former Minister as
when it is enacted, will go down in history—in conjunction well. We were overridden by Europe. This Parliament
with the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which was treated with contempt. The regulation was imposed
repeals the European Communities Act 1972—as it despite the fact that we were completely against it.
179 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 180
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Sir William Cash] region. I will therefore be voting against Second Reading
of the Bill in order to honour the wishes of the people
The other important clause relates to parliamentary who sent me here and the people of Northern Ireland.
sovereignty. I am glad to note that the wording in that There is no such thing as a good or sensible Brexit,
clause is identical in certain respects to that which I put whether we are talking about the UK or Northern
forward in June 1986. Perhaps this long journey has Ireland in particular. Following on from previous comments,
been proved to be worthwhile. it is worth stressing that the House is potentially poised
I congratulate the Prime Minister on what he has today to consciously vote to make the UK worse off
achieved, and, above all else, I congratulate the voters economically. We are aware that that is what we are
of this country, particularly those in former Labour doing. It is an incredible situation the House finds itself
seats, for their decision. I was brought up in Sheffield in. The European Union represents perhaps the single
and saw the destruction of the steel industry and the greatest example of economic integration anywhere in
destruction of the coal industry. [Interruption.] No, it the world, and we are walking away from that.
was done—[Interruption.] Look, I will not take any We are being presented with a false choice between
lessons from the hon. Member for Sheffield Central working in the context of the European Union and
(Paul Blomfield). I voted against the closure of the coal pursuing a global Britain. We can best expand our trade
pits. I was one of the very few people—[Interruption.] I and economy by working through the EU, where we
am just telling you that it was the European coal and have the strength in numbers to stand up and get better
steel community that was at the root of the problem. As deals with the likes of the United States, Australia and
vice-chair of the coal communities all-party group, I China. That is in our self-interest. It is also important to
can tell you that I worked with Labour Members of bear in mind that the EU is more than an economic
Parliament on these issues. body. It is more than the sum of its parts and it allows
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): Order. The effective and collective responses to global challenges,
hon. Gentleman is a very experienced parliamentarian. including migration, global poverty and, most critically
He knows that he should address the Chair, and not in terms of the current agenda, tackling climate change.
individual Members and, while I am on my feet, I say to Society in Northern Ireland only works when based
him that I am looking at the clock as well. on sharing and inter-dependence. Sadly, we remain a
divided society. We are a complex society with lots of
Sir William Cash: I am grateful for that comment, ambiguities. The Good Friday agreement balanced all
Mr Deputy Speaker, because I agree with it. I will only those different challenges through a unique set of
say, with every fibre of my being, that the European relationships. It is about the principle of consent, but it
Union has done no good to this country. We run a is more than that; it is about the internal dynamics, the
massive deficit with it and a surplus with the rest of the north-south relationship and the east-west relationship.
world. By this Bill, when enacted, we will regain the In terms of our economy, both supply chains and trade,
right to govern ourselves. It is about democracy and we depend both on north-south and east-west linkages.
trust, which is something so precious that people fought The challenge of Brexit is that if we do not go for a
and died for it. soft Brexit, as defined by the UK staying inside a
customs union and the single market, Northern Ireland
Mr Deputy Speaker: It is now a pleasure to invite the
will be confronted with some form of border boundary
hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) to make
interface and a degree of friction, which is very regrettable.
his maiden speech.
Any perception of a border creates the feeling of winners
and losers, and in the context of a place like Northern
11.48 am
Ireland, where we are inching slowly towards a better
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): Go raibh maith and more reconciled and integrated society, that has the
agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Thank you, Mr Deputy potential to be very damaging and destructive.
Speaker. I wanted my first formal comments in this The deal negotiated by the right hon. Member for
Chamber to be in Irish to reflect the shared heritage of Maidenhead (Mrs May) was a better attempt at a soft
the language across all the traditions in Northern Ireland. landing than the deal negotiated by the current Prime
I am very pleased to be here as a representative of the Minister. Indeed, the previous deal had the pragmatic
Alliance party of Northern Ireland. I am the second support of the Northern Ireland business community
member of my party to be elected, following in the and an unprecedented level of commitment from them,
footsteps of my party leader, Naomi Long, who was given that this is a rather contentious political issue.
elected back in 2010, and of Stratton Mills, who sat They understood that it was a genuine attempt to
here for about a year as an Alliance Member back in the address the issues. The current proposal from the Prime
early ’70s as the Member for Belfast North. Minister presents Northern Ireland with a much more
Before commenting on the Bill, I want to pay tribute challenging situation. While it certainly maintains an
to my predecessor, Lady Hermon, who was a diligent open border on the island itself, it creates a much more
Member over 18 years and conducted herself with problematic situation down the Irish sea than people
tremendous integrity. In recent years in particular, she had a right to expect and was originally anticipated.
was very dogged in standing up for Northern Ireland To be clear, some degree of checks down the Irish sea
and particularly in protecting the Good Friday agreement can be managed—indeed, there are already precedents
in the context of Brexit. in that regard—and Northern Ireland has always done
I come to this House with a very strong mandate for things differently since the early 1920s. Nor do I see the
remain—indeed, the remain vote in Northern Ireland notion of any special deal for Northern Ireland or an
grew in the election—and that strong remain vote continues interface as being a constitutional question, but what
to reflect the dominant majority of the people in that has been proposed so far will be very challenging for
181 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 182
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
our economy, in terms of both the east-west interface did my constituents and the country—but I really do
and the west-east exchange. Some estimates put the not need any help, because I know why I voted to leave.
compliance costs as high as £300 million per year for I did not do it to make my country poorer or to increase
our businesses. That simply cannot be sustained. So unemployment. Call me old-fashioned, but I did it in
rather than Northern Ireland having a foot in both order to ensure that all the legislation that pertains to
camps, Northern Ireland risks becoming peripheral. this country is actually made in this Parliament and that
The Prime Minister, throughout the election campaign, if the people of Great Britain do not like what the
has been very clear that there will be no checks down Government are doing, they can kick us out. That is
the Irish sea, but that is clearly at odds with the view of democracy.
most experts and most people who have analysed the When I stood on the A59 on 23 June 2016 with some
deal so far. leave banners, inhaling all the lead from the passing
There is some common ground across all the parties lorries, whose drivers tooted madly when they saw the
from Northern Ireland. Clearly, I am coming from a signs, I knew that we were making history on that day.
remain perspective, as are my colleagues from the Social Sadly, when we got back here, with all the excitement of
Democratic and Labour party, whereas my counterparts “We’re leaving, we’re leaving”, we found that the sclerosis
from the Democratic Unionist party are coming from a and paralysis set in. At one stage, I thought that the best
leave perspective. But together we have a reasonable we could hope for was Brexit in name only and that we
argument, and we speak with a moral authority, about would be in some form of customs union—that is not
trying to mitigate the impact of that boundary down Brexit. I thought that we would be justiciable by the
the Irish sea. At the very least, we would ask that the European courts—that is not Brexit. I thought that we
Prime Minister and Government meet us halfway in would have to pay in money to access the EU’s single
that regard. market—that is not Brexit. I know why people voted to
Much has been made of the Prime Minister’s comment leave the EU, and it was not to have Brexit in name only.
about being a one nation Conservative. Unlike my They voted to ensure that when we leave on 31 January,
counterparts in the DUP, I do not interpret that as we are then a third country, and that when we have left
meaning one nation of the UK; the UK is about four the implementation period, at the end of 2020, the
different nations. My appeal to the Prime Minister is: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
don’t be a one nation Prime Minister for England, but will be an independent country again.
be a Prime Minister for all four nations of the UK, and, We can start to look forward to the future with such
as we proceed to the more detailed scrutiny of this Bill, optimism, which is displayed by the Prime Minister
pay particular attention to the needs of Northern Ireland every time he comes to the Dispatch Box. There is a
and the damaging implications of what is now set to positivity and energy about him and about our country,
emerge in terms of that interface down the Irish sea. because, despite the referendum campaign, which told
us that unemployment would go up, there would
11.55 am immediately be a recession and it would be a disaster for
the United Kingdom if we voted to leave, the plucky
Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): First, let me British people decided not to listen to the gloom and
congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen doom; they decided that they knew better about their
Farry) on an excellent and accomplished maiden speech, country.
and the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) I look forward to those trade deals with the European
on an excellent, distinctive maiden speech, given in her Union, the United States of America and the vast
own style. Giving a maiden speech is incredibly stressful. majority of countries that manage, somehow or other,
I gave mine more than 27 years ago, and I am sure you to operate outside of the European Union. I think that
remember it, Sir Roger. It took place at 1.10 am and it our country has an incredibly great future.
was on the subject of the Maastricht treaty. Tristan
On that note, I wish all Members on both sides of the
Garel-Jones was sitting where our wonderful Brexit
House, because it has only been a week since we were
Secretary is sitting now, and it was truly the most awful
re-elected and it was a gruelling campaign—I still have
speech I have given in the Chamber to date. I recall
frostbite—and all the staff who look after us a very
reflecting back on it—I have looked at it—and realising
merry Christmas and a happy 2020 with an independent
that all it said was how wonderful the Maastricht treaty
United Kingdom.
was because it did not contain X and did not contain Y.
When I look back on 1975 and the referendum Harold
12 noon
Wilson set up to get himself out of a pickle, I feel that I
probably would have voted to stay in the common Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I echo the final
market, because I thought that the common market was sentence of the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans)
a good thing. But the first piece of legislation, the but not much else of what he said.
Maastricht treaty, was part of the salami-slicing of The Prime Minister was understandably very anxious
powers away from this wonderful institution, the mother to hold the general election before the Bill was scrutinised.
of all Parliaments at Westminster, and giving them to As we go through the Bill in detail, the impact of his
Brussels. agreement on the UK will become apparent. The agreement
I did not want that, so when David Cameron announced will do a lot of damage to our constitution and to our
that we were going to have a referendum on staying in economy, and Government Members will have a lot of
or leaving the EU, I sat down and thought, “Now, explaining to do to their constituents as those impacts
which side am I going to go on?” That internal mental become apparent in the years ahead.
debate lasted about a nanosecond, and I thought, “It’s I want to raise two points. First, I want to deal briefly
time to leave.” I am grateful to Opposition Members for with an important subject that I raised with the Prime
informing me since 2016 as to why I voted to leave—as Minister in the House on 19 October. I asked him
183 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 184
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Stephen Timms] “At minimum, this means that export summary declarations
will be required when goods are exported from NI to GB, in order
whether he understood the worries of manufacturing to meet the EU’s obligations under the SAFE framework.”
exporters, as set out by their organisation, Make UK, It continues, in a slide in the presentation headed “Economic
about new rules of origin checks and other red tape that Impact on NI”:
his deal will impose on them. He answered: “Customs declaration and documentation and physical checks
“The reason I am not worried about that is that there are no on W/E and E/W trade will be highly disruptive to the NI economy.”
new rules of origin checks.”—[Official Report, 19 October 2019; That is the truth about where we are heading. There will
Vol. 666, c. 594.] be major damage to the Union between Northern Ireland
But that is not what his deal says. Paragraph 22 of the and Great Britain. One of the ironies of this is that it
political declaration, which he negotiated, refers to has been directly facilitated by the party in this House
“appropriate and modern accompanying rules of origin” whose raison d’être is to maintain the Union.
for the proposed free trade agreement, in direct The agreement that is implemented in the Bill will
contradiction to what he said in the Chamber. Of damage the UK, it will put the continued existence of
course, the reality is that there will have to be rules of the UK in its current form at risk, and it will damage
origin checks to stop products from countries outside the UK economy. I shall oppose it, and those who
Europe entering the European Union via a UK free trade support it today will have a lot of explaining to do to
agreement. their constituents as the impacts unfold over the years
ahead.
Secondly, I want to talk about a subject—it has been
aired already in the debate—where again the Prime
12.6 pm
Minister’s statements contradict directly the agreement
that he has negotiated. The withdrawal agreement’s Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): May I first say
protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland—in paragraph 4 that I am hugely grateful to the people of North Dorset
of article 5—states: for returning me to the House, to allow me to continue
“The provisions of Union law listed in Annex 2 to this Protocol to speak and work on their behalf ?
shall also apply…in respect of Northern Ireland.” It is worth reminding ourselves that this was a national
Annex 2 comprises 34 pages and lists what I count as referendum. I hear what colleagues from Northern Ireland
287 separate items of EU law that will continue to apply and Scotland say, but we did not say that all four
in Northern Ireland but not in the rest of the UK. The constituent parts of the United Kingdom had to vote
hon. Member for Ribble Valley was celebrating exiting uniformly. It was a national referendum on a first-past-
the customs union, but of course Northern Ireland will the-post basis. There is a thin veneer of defence for
not exit the customs union. those seeking to hide behind the argument supporting
The first of those 287 items of EU law is the European separatism when those lines are trotted out. For those
Union customs code, which will continue to apply in who question the Government’s commitment to protecting
Northern Ireland after the UK has left the EU, and that and enhancing workers’ rights, I hope that it will not
will have far-reaching consequences for Northern Ireland. embarrass or upset the Opposition too much when I
I pay tribute to the hon. Members for North Down point out that my party is now the party of the workers
(Stephen Farry) and for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), of this country, who voted for us in huge, huge number.
who both made fine maiden speeches highlighting some [Interruption.] No, thank you. I ask what I hope is a
of these issues. In an earlier intervention I quoted from rhetorical question—why would any party in government
the Government’s own impact assessment. Paragraph 241 seek to undermine the rights of those people who have
states: turned in such great number to support us, not least to
get Brexit done?
“Goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will
be required to complete both import declarations and Entry This is, of course, a sad day. Colleagues have commented
Summary (ENS) Declarations because the UK will be applying on the paralysis that we have endured for the past
the EU’s UCC— 18 months or so. Today’s debate should have taken
the Union customs code— place to allow exit from the European Union in March,
in Northern Ireland.”
so I hope that a spirit of broader pragmatism and
co-operation can break out.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): On the issues A number of Members have reflected on key messages
that the right hon. Gentleman has identified, does he of the electoral event last Thursday. My take is that it
agree that for any business in Northern Ireland—remember was a civil war, but without the blood. Voters in great
that 70% of our trade is with the rest of the United number picked up a ballot paper and a stubby pencil,
Kingdom—the codes that he has read out put a significant reasserted their rights, and reaffirmed their role as our
burden on doing business from Northern Ireland with masters and bosses. We cannot, as democrats, ask the
the rest of our nation, and that should be changed if people of this country to give us a decision, and then,
this goes ahead? when we find it either surprising or inconvenient, find
every trick in the book to try to dodge it.
Stephen Timms: Undoubtedly the measure does that, Until May this year, my postbag—I am sure other
but it is hardwired into the deal that the Prime Minister colleagues found this as well—was inundated with letters
has done. What he means in claiming that there will be from constituents who had ideas about how to break
no checks across the Irish sea is anyone’s guess—just the deadlock and move things forward. However, after
read the Government’s own documents. His statement May, and certainly after the elections to the European
is quite clearly untrue. The Treasury presentation on the Parliament, people started to write saying that they
Northern Ireland protocol that we have been reminded were so fed up that they were minded to opt out of the
of makes the position clear: democratic life of this country or, worse, were exploring
185 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 186
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
avenues of civil disobedience to, in some way, ventilate The challenge now will be for Opposition parties to put
their growing frustration at the arrogance of too many aside the arguments that they deployed in full sincerity
people in this place who thought they knew better than and in good heart but that, put simply, they have lost. It
the people. is time to move on. This Bill gives us the opportunity to
What greater exposition of that arrogance was there do so. It has my full support.
than the campaign from the Liberal Democrats? It was
Several hon. Members rose—
illiberal and undemocratic—worthy of neither part of
their party’s title. The smug intellectual arrogance they Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): Order. I remind
deployed—[HON. MEMBERS: “Where are they?”] My hon. the House that there are still some 20 Members waiting
Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) to be called, and we are trying to impose a self-denying
and others ask where the Liberal Democrats are. Their ordinance of six minutes. I would be grateful if hon.
terrible righteous smugness, which seems to be a unique Members stuck to that. That said, we do allow a degree
part of liberal democracy’s DNA—the idea that they of leeway for maiden speeches, and it is a pleasure to
know more and better than everybody else— welcome the new Member for Stirling, Mr Alyn Smith.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): 12.15 pm
On the point about being smug, I invite the hon. Gentleman Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): Thank you, Mr Deputy
to reflect on the result in Scotland. How many colleagues Speaker. I rise to make my first speech in this place
of his were here from Scotland before the election, and with, I confess, a mix of emotions. Until Friday last, I
how many were returned afterwards? was a member of the European Parliament, proudly
representing Stirling, along with the rest of Scotland, in
Simon Hoare: Let us be frank: the SNP had a very our European family of nations. I now find myself here
successful result, although it was not as good as the contemplating our removal from it.
hon. Gentleman and I remember from 2015. As others
I am proud to represent Stirling, my new home, with
have commented, it will present challenges for those of
51% of the vote. The heart of Scotland voted SNP,
us who believe fundamentally in the preservation of the
along with much of the rest of our nation. Stirling is the
Union, who will now need to find arguments that are
ancient capital, a historic city and the scene of many old
more compelling than merely the broad, abstract and
battles. It has a big heart and a great future. The seat, at
romantic, and that focus not so much on the pounds,
2,187 sq km—I hope Conservative Members will forgive
shillings and pence but on making the positive case for
me; I do not know what it is in miles—is comparable
the Union. That is an important point.
in size to Luxembourg, and it is every bit as diverse.
We have many vibrant village communities: Drymen,
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): Will Gargunnock and Strathblane in the west; Cowie, Fallin
the hon. Gentleman give way? and Plean in the east; Killin, Crianlarich and Tyndrum
in the north; St Ninians and the Whins of Milton in the
Simon Hoare: No, thank you. south; and Callander, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane.
As we face the opportunities and the challenges of We truly are Scotland in miniature. We have rich farmland,
our country leaving the European Union, I am absolutely breathtaking scenery, and a world-class university and
convinced that we stand the best and strongest chance college. Stirling is held by the SNP at local government
of making a success of this new chapter of our national level and in the national Parliament of Scotland. The
story if we stand shoulder to shoulder and do these SNP won in Stirling handsomely in the European elections,
things together. and we now represent it in this place as well.
May I just say a brief word in relation to Northern I am particularly privileged to represent a number of
Ireland? It was clear that, because it is the only part of former mining communities—places where loyalty and
the kingdom with a land border with a country that will community still matter. The Polmaise pit was the first
remain part of the European Union, we needed a out and the last back in the 1984 miners’ strike. I am
border. The question was what and where. We tried the deeply honoured to have the trust of such proud communities.
north-south proposal, and we found it to be impossible They are people who believe in deeds, not words, and I
and not to be supported by many. The east-west proposal ask only to be judged by mine.
is clearly not perfect and, of itself, presents challenges. It is customary in a first speech in this place to pay
However, I do not believe that the people of this country tribute to one’s predecessor, and I do so gladly. Stephen
define themselves by the narrow rules that govern their Kerr and I may not agree on everything, but we do
customs arrangements—it is far deeper and more spiritual agree on the importance of democracy and public service.
than that. It is key that we maintain the unity of our I pay tribute to his service, and I wish him, his family
United Kingdom. The challenge, which I am fully convinced and his team all the best for the future, whatever it
that those on the Front Bench are seized of, is to ensure brings.
that, whatever the regime of customs arrangements, Indeed, I wish the same for all of us, because although
they are the lightest touch and are, in essence, cost-neutral. this is a momentous day for some in this House, it is a
We can achieve that through all sorts of VAT reclaim day of deep sadness for many of us. I assure you,
and other mechanisms. Mr Deputy Speaker, that today’s vote will live in infamy.
Let me conclude by saying that the people have It is not the end of Brexit; it is the start of something far
spoken, and we on the Government side of the House worse. It is an arithmetic fact, not a matter of opinion,
are their champions. We listened to what they said in that Scotland has not consented to this. We are not
2016, and we have heard it again. We on this side are leaving the European Union; we are being dragged out
fully armed to ensure that we restore the democratic against our will by a Government that we rejected, and
legitimacy of this place and the national respect for it. hence my mixed emotions. I stood for this place to try
187 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 188
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Alyn Smith] Mr Francois: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.

to stop Brexit. I won Stirling with 51% of the vote, the Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
SNP won 80% of the seats in Scotland and the pro-EU rose—
Lib Dems won four more, and yet despite that, Brexit is
happening, as I now accept. Mr Francois: I have given way once.
I counsel Government Members to beware of hubris, We spent some 40 years in this House arguing over
for in what they call their victory today lie the seeds of a Europe. In the end, the only thing we could agree on
far greater defeat. I understand from previous interventions was that we could not agree, so we voted overwhelmingly
that there are some scholars in the House. May I to give the decision to the people in a referendum, and
suggest some festive reading for them all: the history of then some in this House spent three years deliberately
Czechoslovakia? Start around January 1991 and see ignoring the result. They pulled every trick in the book—the
what happens. A Union—the United Kingdom is a Grieve amendment, the Letwin amendment—time after
Union of nations; do us the courtesy of using the right time, to try to overturn a result with which they and the
words—can only be maintained and endure if there is British establishment patently did not agree. We played
consent and respect. It is an arithmetic fact that in all a ridiculous game whereby some on the Opposition
our recent votes, Scotland has not consented to where Benches—and, indeed, some on our Benches—stuck to
we are now, and the actions of this House prove that a mantra of: “I will never vote to allow us to crash out
there is a lack of respect for Scotland’s democracy. I with no deal.” What they meant was: “I’ll never, ever
have concluded in the years since, along with my party, vote for us to leave the EU under any circumstances, but
that Scotland’s best future lies as an independent state because of the referendum, I can’t say so.”
in the European Union. Many people in Stirling agree Finally, we had to have this general election to break
with me. Many do not, and that is an ongoing, lively the logjam. I am afraid that those on our Benches who
conversation, but there are many more than that who took that view, and who assured us time and again that
agree that it should be for Scotland to choose our they were doing what their constituents wanted, were
future. What is being done to us today is a grave, deep proved incorrect. Their constituents had the opportunity
injustice that will not stand and will have consequences. to renew their contracts of employment and patently, in
We on the SNP Benches have long said that this place every single case, declined to do so. Also, Mr Steve
does not work for Scotland. In passing this grubby, Bray, the man in the hat, stood as a Liberal Democrat
shabby Bill today, this House will prove us right. Today candidate in a Welsh constituency. He had the courage
will not be the end of the matter, however much wishful to put his name on the ballot paper, but he came sixth
thinking may be employed by Government Members. and lost his deposit. We wish him a happy—and silent—
Scotland is a European nation and Scotland will be heard. retirement.
The war in this place over Europe—and it has been a
12.20 pm war—is finally coming to a close, not because there was
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con): a truce, but because the British people imposed their
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak will on us and told us unequivocally in the general election
in this historic debate. I have the privilege to follow the that they wanted to leave. Many here had argued for
new hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith), who I must two years for a people’s vote. We have just had one: it
say spoke very well. I have to confess that I did not is called a general election, and the outcome was
agree with every word he said, but he delivered his unmistakeably clear. The people of this country peacefully
speech admirably, which augurs well for his future in and democratically voted to get Brexit done.
this House. We will leave the European Union at 11 pm GMT on
In 1997, I fought Ken Livingstone in Brent East. Just 31 January. I hope that, in line with early-day motion 2,
enough extra votes—16,000 teensy-weensy, little votes—and the House authorities will allow Big Ben to chime at
I would have beaten him, but in a hustings in Willesden that time to mark the historic occasion, because by
Green library, 22 years ago, he taught me a lesson that I God, after all this, we are not doing it again. When we
have never forgotten. He said that, as a Member of vote on the Bill—when the bells ring this afternoon—we
Parliament—which he was and I was not—a general will be doing so to obey the instructions of the British
election is an opportunity to commune with one’s 68,000 people, who have given us an unmistakable order to
employers. I have 79,000 employers in Rayleigh and leave the European Union. We will vote for the Bill to
Wickford, but the principle is exactly the same. I place comply with what our employers have told us they want
on record my gratitude to them for re-employing me to us to do. It could not be clearer. As my right hon. Friend
represent them—for renewing my contract of employment the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), with
to speak on their behalf. We got into a terrible mess in whom I have fought this battle for many years, said so
this House because too many people forgot that they clearly, that is called democracy.
worked for their employers and not the other way round. The people have spoken, and we will listen. We will
do what they want. When the sun rises on 1 February, it
Henry Smith: (Crawley) (Con): I, too, congratulate will do so over a free country. All I want for Christmas
my right hon. Friend on his deserved re-election. He has is not EU.
been stalwart on behalf of his constituents and on the
cause of British independence from the European Union 12.26 pm
for many long years in this House. Does he agree that
the British people have given us a clear message that it is Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): In the
time to confirm their vote of three and a half years ago, 2016 referendum, I promised my constituents that, whatever
and that it should not have taken that long? the result was—whatever mandate they gave—I would
189 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 190
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
respect it. In 2017, I stood on a manifesto that said I 12.30 pm
would continue to respect that mandate, and work for a
deal and to avoid no deal. That is exactly what I did. In Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings)
this election, I was clear with my constituents that I still (Con): Welcome to the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker. I
respected that mandate and that I would work for a deal have no doubt that it is going to be a delight to serve
to leave the EU. under your enlightened chairmanship for many years.
People respond to clear and consistent messaging. Listening to this debate, I drew a contrast between
My party’s catch-all Brexit policy failed. Today was, the contribution of my right hon. Friend the Member
and still is, an opportunity to stop the procrastination for Ashford (Damian Green) and that of the right hon.
and send a message to our lost voters—the voters that Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who both
our party was created to give a voice to in Parliament—that campaigned for remain in the 2016 referendum. One
we do hear them, value them and genuinely want to has accepted the result but the other remains in denial.
rebuild their trust. The debate in this House before the election was
characterised by that contrast between the acceptance
I am fed up with hearing that we need to listen more of the democratic will of the people and the perpetual
to our working class communities—communities that denial of those who campaigned for remain but who cannot
some people here speak about as if they were some kind come to terms with the result.
of homogenous block who all think and feel in exactly
the same way. They certainly do not. Many of us here The election result finally settles the matter. The
listen to our communities every single day. Some who Prime Minister, at some risk to himself and, indeed, to
did that are no longer in this place, because others many of us, put his reputation on the line by saying
refused to hear or act on the voices of their constituents, to the British people, “Do you or don’t you trust me to
which they so passionately articulated. I am deeply deliver this?” The British people have delivered their
saddened that my right honourable friend the former verdict. They want us to deliver Brexit, not necessarily
Member for Don Valley, who has been an utterly fierce because they wanted to leave in the first place, but
champion for democracy, her constituents and those of simply because they want the matter settled. They want
us who wanted to honour the promises we made to our to deliver the certainty that is critical for British business
voters, is no longer on these Benches. She, along with and for the integrity of our democracy. To have continued
my honourable friends the former Members for Great to frustrate the will of the people would have done
Grimsby, for Crewe and Nantwich, for Stoke-on-Trent untold harm to the very spirit that should imbue this
North, for Stoke-on-Trent Central and for Leigh were—and place and that gives life and health to democratic legitimacy.
I know that they take absolutely no pleasure in this at That is why, beyond all else, I will vote for the Bill today.
all—right on this issue every single step of the way. This But that is not the only reason. I have opposed the
debate and this place are poorer without them. European Union consistently throughout my political
Just over eight weeks ago, those former Members and career—indeed, stretching back into my boyhood, which
I voted for the Second Reading of this Bill, which has was something like 40 years ago. I know it seems
now changed. In my time in this House, we often voted surprising and unlikely, but it was 40 years ago that I
for Second Readings. We sometimes have not liked the was a boy. I first advocated withdrawal from the European
Bills, but Second Reading is not a blank cheque; it is an Union when I was a student at Nottingham University
opportunity to move the debate forward, propose back in the late 1970s.
amendments and seek improvements. I will vote for I did so because the European Union is regulatory. I
Second Reading again today. remember countless occasions when civil servants would
The programme motion is short. Last time, we tried come to me and say, “It’s bad news from Europe,
to force the Government to offer more time and we Minister. We’re looking at ways we can get around it,
ended up in the worst general election in my memory. dilute it, avoid it.” I would say, “Well, do all you can,” as
Now, much as I am heartbroken by the fact, the I did in respect of the ports directive referred to by my
Conservative party has an overwhelming mandate that hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash).
it did not have last time we debated this Bill. I will vote Yet I can never remember them saying, “Great news
for the programme motion as well and put my energy from Europe, Minister. This is going to be really beneficial
into making the case for changes in Committee. I do not for the British people.” The regulatory burden that has
want to oppose for opposition’s sake: we need to build emanated from the European Union has been immensely
consensus and stop the combative nature of this debate. unhelpful to Britain and the British economy, time after
That serves no one, and the past three years have proven time.
that. I also oppose the European Union because it is
This has been an awful, toxic period in our politics. I costly. The latest House of Commons Library figures
have despaired at how this place has descended so many suggest that the net cost of our membership of this very
times into the most divisive, base, angry, gallery-pleasing expensive club is £8.9 billion. Indeed, we have been net
politics. It might make for good headlines, but it does contributors in every year since we joined in 1973 except,
not make for a serious, functioning Parliament that interestingly enough, 1975.
people can have any respect for or any faith in. I will
always deliver on the promises that I make to my Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What happened
constituents. Their faith in me always matters. My word then?
to them matters. It is with the heaviest of hearts that I
cannot vote with my party today, but I will always put Sir John Hayes: That was the year of the referendum.
my constituents before everything else, because the day In that one single year, we were a net beneficiary to the
I do not is the day I no longer deserve the honour of tune of £395 million. In every other year, we have been
being their voice in this place. paying dear to bear this regulatory burden.
191 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 192
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Sir John Hayes] Although the Prime Minister has a mandate for his
manifesto, we are still a democracy, and in a democracy
In addition to those reasons for my opposition to the we take pride in listening to dissenting voices. It is that
European Union and all its excesses, I have a more voice of dissent that we are at risk of crushing in this
fundamental reason. It is this: when power is exercised debate because this Bill has huge problems. Worse,
detached from the people it affects, it first becomes many Members, including Labour colleagues who voted
careless and ultimately becomes capricious. When people for the Bill, worked hard to place ameliorations against
lose the ability to hold to account those who make the worst aspects of Brexit in the Bill that we debated
decisions for them, democracy is undermined. That, in before the election, but some of those ameliorations
the end, is the reason why I campaigned with such have now been removed.
vigour to leave the European Union in the referendum First, no deal is firmly back on the table. Clause 33
and have consistently argued so from my boyhood into reintroduces the huge jeopardy that we might leave the
my middle age, which I am now about to enjoy. European Union without a deal, and the consequences
The denial that I described earlier is a test of character of doing so are grim. There is a risk to peace from our
for Opposition Members. The test of character in victory having no agreement with the European Union, given
is humility and the test of character in defeat is wisdom. where that would leave the relationship for those on the
The test for those who have adopted the position to vote island of Ireland. No deal could create significant problems
against the Bill today—many of whom I respect, by the for medical supplies on cross-channel routes, which
way, as individual Members of this House—is whether would have an immediate impact on the health and lives
they will exercise such wisdom, for to vote against this of people in Britain, and we know what no deal would
Bill is not merely implausible; it is fundamentally unwise. do to food supplies. Reintroducing that risk through the
You will be glad to know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that Bill is a massive mistake. I will not rehearse all the
that brings me to my concluding remarks. [HON. MEMBERS: reasons why the idea that it is necessary for our negotiating
“No!”] I know that that will disappoint more Members position is wrong, because we know that it is wrong.
than it pleases. None the less, I must make room for The Prime Minister wants to do it, but I am afraid that
others to contribute. G. K. Chesterton wrote: if he thinks the days of hearing objections to that
“How you think when you lose determines how long it will be
negotiating stance are over because we have a new
until you win.” Parliament, he is very much mistaken.
I simply say to Opposition Members that how they Secondly, from discussing a hard border on the island
behave now will determine how they are thought of of Ireland, we will now be discussing a hard border for
now and into the future. Merseyside. The impact of a border in the Irish sea is
significant for my constituents in the Wirral and people
Let me finish on this note. I have spoken about my who live in Sefton and Liverpool, where the port is, with
consistent position. There are critics of me—here and ferries going between Birkenhead and Belfast. If people
more broadly. [HON. MEMBERS: “No!”] Not many, I in this House think that because Merseyside votes somewhat
acknowledge, but there are critics. However, one thing counter to the national trend, it will be forgotten, I can
I cannot be criticised for is inconsistency. C. S. Lewis said tell them that they are wrong. The people of Merseyside
that consistency is the mark of greatness. I just hope want to know that Brexit will not do irreparable damage
that if I remain consistent, one day I might be great, too. to our relationships—both commercial and of friendship
—with people on the other side of the Irish sea, so we
Several hon. Members rose—
will be making our objections clear. I want to know
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Gary Streeter): Order. In what economic assessment has been carried out on the
order for us to get everyone in before the wind-ups at impact of this policy. The hon. Members for Belfast
2 o’clock, the informal time limit on speeches is now South (Claire Hanna) and for North Down (Stephen
five minutes. Farry) made these points clearly in their great maiden
speeches. To us, Brexit is not just a risk to our economy,
but a risk to our identity, and we will not allow that
12.37 pm point to go unheard.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): What a joy it Finally, on parliamentary sovereignty, the efforts of the
is to follow the right hon. Member for South Holland former Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central, Gareth Snell,
and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). My quotes are to give us in this House a say and to get a parliamentary
normally a bit more Jarvis Cocker and Bill Shankly lock on the future relationship have unfortunately failed.
than G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis, but the right The Prime Minister has ripped up commitments that he
hon. Gentleman made a good contribution, and it is his made to people who were prepared to vote for his deal.
point about undermining democracy that I really want That is an unworthy thing to do; he should have kept
to begin with. But first, I must thank my constituents in those parliamentary locks in the Bill.
Wirral South because not only did they take the decision By any economic measure, the consequences of this
to re-elect me for the fourth time, but even those who I Bill are grim, and the democratic consequences are
know for a fact were definitely not voting for me were worse. The Conservative party won the general election,
incredibly kind. That is the quality of the people in the but they won some crucial seats by a few hundred votes.
Wirral; I thank them all. They should not use those votes as a mandate to forget
When it comes to undermining democracy, I think we all the people who did not vote for them in those areas.
need to step back from some of the language in this The Prime Minister has control of the House now, so he
debate. It is perfectly legitimate to be triumphalist in can drum his Brexit through, but the question is how he
victory. I take nothing for granted, but if my team wins can do that when there are nations in our Union and
the league this season, I will certainly be triumphalist. cities in our country that do not consent, and for which
However, this is not football; this is incredibly important. he has shown little care. If his future is one in which it is
193 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 194
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
his way or nothing, my party will need to plan an Let me also issue a warning to those in the other
alternative future, and that is the work that we will now place who will deal with the Bill. Do not start playing
get on with. games now. We have had enough, and the people of this
country have had enough. The other place must pass
12.43 pm this Bill, and allow us to get on with leaving the EU on
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Before I start, 31 January.
may I thank the voters of South Dorset for returning On fishing and agriculture, I say this to Ministers:
me? I am humbled to be returned again and look whatever you do, do not sell those parts of our economy
forward to serving them to the best of my ability. The short. Let us stick together. Let us do what we said we
Prime Minister is not here, nor is the Speaker, but I were going to do, and leave the EU. By December 2020,
welcome them both to their places. I have backed the if indeed no free trade agreement has been made, we
Prime Minister and believe he is the man for the job, must go, but I am confident that that will be achieved by
and I believe the Speaker will bring integrity back into then.
this place, which sadly was beginning to be lost. I also
want to welcome new Members. It is a pleasure to see Lastly, like other Members, I wish every Member of
them all here, particularly on our side of the House. the House and the staff, particularly my own staff, a
Years ago, before I was elected in 2010, I adopted a very happy Christmas.
battle cry: “We want our country back.” In fact, it was
so good that Nigel Farage nicked it, as he freely admits, 12.48 pm
when he was in charge of UKIP. That was not some sort
of xenophobic, Union Jack-waving, isolationist standpoint. Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I
It was because, like many of my constituents who voted thank voters in my constituency for re-electing me to
to leave, we wanted control of our country. We wanted serve as their Member of Parliament. It is an honour to
our beloved country to have control of her destiny. It represent one of the most diverse constituencies in the
really is as simple as that. country. In 2016 it voted overwhelmingly to remain in
the European Union, and, in my experience, the strength
In his speech, the Leader of the Opposition talked
of my constituents’ pro-EU views has only grown over
about ripping our communities apart and about job
the past three years.
losses, and made a raft of other negative comments. A
once-respected Labour party has sadly been hijacked by The vast majority of my constituents did not vote to
the far left. I have huge respect for many members of “get Brexit done”, and my mandate from them is to
the party, but it has been hijacked. Had the Leader keep standing up for our values in Dulwich and West
of the Opposition won, as he tried to do, this country of Norwood and to champion their interests. Our values
ours would have been torn apart; I have absolutely no are those of outward-facing internationalism, a celebration
doubt about that. of diversity and community solidarity. These are the
Trust the people, trust the people, trust the people. I values that underpin our support for membership of
failed once in the House. I voted for the deal on the the EU and these are the values that lead us to be deeply
third occasion, and I apologised two days later. Since concerned about Brexit and this Government’s reckless
then—just before the election last week—I began to approach to it.
wonder whether the people would return us, and allow Our values lead us to be concerned about the protections
us to do what they wanted us to do. They did. When the people are afforded in their workplace, the protection of
result of the exit poll was announced, I simply could our environment and our response to the climate emergency.
not believe that we would have a majority of about They lead us to prioritise human rights and to be
80 MPs, but we have, and here we are. Honour and concerned about how Governments are held to account
democracy can now be returned to this place, and we for human rights abuses which happen on their watch.
can serve the people who send us here. And they lead us to be concerned about refugees and to
I accept that there are still many different views in all want the UK to play a full role in responding to the
parts of the House, but, as my hon. Friend the Member global refugee crisis by welcoming people who have lost
for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) said in his excellent everything and helping them to rebuild their lives. Indeed,
speech, it is time to move on. Just imagine what this many of my constituents are already playing their part
country of ours could achieve if, together, all sides through community sponsorship groups and they want
buried their differences, respected the people of this to see the Government doing the same.
country—the United Kingdom—and stepped into this We are dismayed to see in the Bill the Government
brave new world of opportunities. Those opportunities jettison their previous commitment to the Dubs amendment
are there; I can see them. There have been a few naysayers on child refugees and the non-regression clauses, which
today. I will ask them in five years’ time, “Were you wrong were designed to ensure that the UK does not move
to say what you said that day in the House of Commons?”, backwards on workers’ rights relative to the EU—or at
and I am pretty certain that they will have to reply, least that if the Government did so it would be completely
“Richard, I was wrong”, because we have a great future. transparent and they could be held to account. In
Let me say this to Ministers. It is important to get this relation to human rights, the previous Government
Brexit done, yes, but it is important then to return to a removed the UK’s commitment to the charter of
domestic agenda which has sadly been ignored, for all fundamental rights. The Bill further waters down the
the reasons that we know, for more than three and a commitment to the European convention on human
half years. Certainly in South Dorset we need better rights, and the political declaration makes no mention
road and rail connectivity, and proper social affordable of rights previously protected by the EU charter of
housing. This is the chance for our party, with all our fundamental rights. There is a real risk that hard-won
new MPs from the north, to reach out, right across the rights fought for over hundreds of years could be watered
country, and to deliver—and we must. down by this or any other future Government.
195 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 196
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Helen Hayes] There have been two and a half years of endless
squabbling and going round in circles. This afternoon,
The Prime Minister’s reckless approach to the we will be able to put that squabbling to an end, get
implementation period is nothing short of a disgrace. Brexit done and move on.
There is not a shred of evidence that a trade deal with For some of us, this has been a very long journey. I
the EU can be secured within a year. The EU says it first campaigned for a referendum more than a decade
cannot. All trade deal precedents indicate that it cannot. ago. Ten years ago, I stood for and was elected to the
Yet the Prime Minister seeks to enshrine in law the European Parliament on a platform calling for reform,
UK’s crashing out of the EU with no trade deal in just a as Europe needed to modernise. Five years ago, I stood
year’s time. Brexit will not be done; it will be doing its with a gentleman who is now my hon. Friend the
worst to communities up and down the country. Jobs Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) on a platform for the
will be lost and lives left devastated if we crash out in a European Parliament, saying that it needed to reform,
year’s time. I urge newly elected Government Members that we needed to renegotiate and that we would have a
to reflect very carefully on what exactly this will mean referendum. We then had that referendum.
for the communities they represent, and to heed the I must admit that, as a Brit in Brussels chairing a
warnings of UK manufacturers about the dependence major committee in that Parliament after the referendum,
of supply chains on our membership of the single market it was not easy. I was a major target for anyone who
and customs union. wanted to throw political abuse at Britain. There were
None of this is hypothetical. It is about the ability of days when I literally felt that the arrows to my front had
thousands of people to go to work in secure, well-paid met the knives in my back, but I also felt that there were
jobs that keep a roof over their family’s head. It is about friends across Europe who wanted to help us to move
the rights of working people to holiday pay, maternity on, to avoid an acrimonious divorce and to move on
and parental leave, sick pay and protection from into a new, deep and special partnership. That partnership
discrimination and unfair dismissal. has been outlined by the Prime Minister again today
and it is a partnership that also respects democracy.
Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does the hon. It was democracy that came up again and again on
Lady accept that, actually, in many cases UK standards the doorsteps in this general election. Our country has a
are higher than those of the European Union? I am proud reputation of standing up for democracy across
very confused as to why Opposition Members keep the world. How do we stand firm with the people of
using the EU as a gold standard when actually it is the Hong Kong, with Zimbabwe, with the Rohingya from
UK that is the gold standard. Burma and with the people in Venezuela if we do not
respect democracy in our own country?
Helen Hayes: I thank the hon. Member for his In his first speech after the election, the Prime Minister
intervention, but I do not accept that that is the case. called for healing. It is time to stop putting people into
Nor do I accept that the Bill does anything other than those pigeonholes of leave and remain. It is time to
leave those rights to the mercy of any future Government. move on. Today, when I vote for the agreement, it will
I do not trust this Prime Minister to maintain the be the first step towards moving on. Yes, we need to get
standards we have derived from the EU. a trade deal. We need to get a trade deal with the EU
It is about the protection of our woodlands, rivers and it needs to get one with us; the EU is our largest
and coastal habitats at a time when the environment trading partner, and we are the EU’s largest trading
could not be more important. It is about the practical partner. We can get a trade deal within the year, and we
expression of our values in the way that we treat the must get a trade deal within the year. It can be done,
world’s most vulnerable children. because so much of the detail has already been agreed
not only by us, but by all 27 other countries as well.
I understand that the Prime Minister has a majority They have agreed tariff-free, quota-free trade. They
that means he will pass the Bill and we will leave the have agreed a deal that works for our fishing and our
European Union, but my constituents will not be denied farming and a deal that can work for our financial
a voice in that debate. Make no mistake: the Bill will services. Members should remember that 10p in every
deliver nothing but damage to the UK on many fronts. I pound that we spend as taxpayers comes from the
will oppose it, I will stand up for my constituents’ values financial services. We have agreed a deal that works for
and interests, and I will hold the Government to account the environment and, crucially, as a supporter of a
for the consequences of their reckless actions. science, a deal that works for ongoing co-operation in
science, security and student exchanges.
Several hon. Members rose— Much of this election was about one nation
Conservativism—[Interruption.] I am winding up. One
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Gary Streeter): Colleagues, nation conservatism is not only about holding our
we are not doing terribly well on timing. We have United Kingdom together, which is crucial, but about
15 more colleagues to speak and 2 o’clock is when the working for all sectors of our economy. It is a conservatism
wind-ups begin. My maths are poor, but I believe that that is committed to well-funded public services, funded
that is four minutes each. by a strong economy; a conservatism that believes that
we must protect our environment and put it in a better
state for future generations; and a conservatism that is
12.53 pm
committed to our role in the world and believes that
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): It is an honour to be every single person in this country has an equal right to
back in this House almost two and a half years to the a fair chance in life. That is the conservatism that we
day I was first elected. I would like to thank the good will be supporting when we vote for this crucial step this
people of Chelmsford for re-electing me to this place. afternoon.
197 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 198
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
12.58 pm in the Chair at the moment. I also congratulate the hon.
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): Sadly, we live in Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) on his speech.
a very divided country. I have listened in vain to those on As always, I think he argued his case with eloquence
the Government Benches to hear whether they have any and courtesy, even if I did not agree with quite everything
understanding of the 16 million people who voted to he said.
remain in the European Union—in my city last week, This has been a challenging election for us all—the
people voted 44,000 to 9,000 to remain. I have no sense hon. Member referred to it being a December election—and
that the Government understand those people, and that I give my thanks above all to the people of West
is a very dangerous situation, because people are proud Oxfordshire for having returned me again. I am very
to be citizens of the European Union. We do not welcome humbled and grateful for the trust they have put in me.
the erosion of the rights that we currently enjoy, so when Not only did they have to endure a December election,
there is celebration in a few weeks’ time by some, there but it was the third general election in three years for
will be real grief and anger from others. They will have a them and me. In every electoral contest since 2015, we
good reason to be angry, because in the previous Parliament have promised to do as we were instructed on the
there was a real prospect of securing a confirmatory question of Britain’s place in the EU, and that is what
referendum. The Prime Minister knew that, which is we have a chance to do today: to show that we will do as
why he was so desperate to get to his election. He was on were told and what we said we would do.
the ropes, but to everyone’s astonishment the Liberal Now is also an important time for us to put to bed the
Democrats came to the rescue—of course, they are not question of this country’s place in Europe. That question
here. They took a huge gamble with the future of this has bedevilled and tormented this country for longer
country, and of course it failed and they have paid a than I have been alive. I am clear, from speaking to
heavy price, but sadly, so, too, has the whole country. people in my constituency and around the country, that
What I will say is that their role in this will not be while the people of this country warmly welcome a
forgotten. [Interruption.] No, I did not vote for the relationship of trade, co-operation and culture, they
election; I voted against it, which actually got the biggest never wanted to be part of a political union, but inexorably
cheer in the hustings in Cambridge—no elections in that is the direction in which the EU has been heading
December ever again, please. for many years, certainly since the advent of the euro.
I am an optimist and I say to remainers: there is hope. We have a chance tonight to bring the country together
We have seen that the Prime Minister, despite the bluster, by putting this question to bed.
folds under pressure. He folded when the Irish issue The free trade agreement destination, which the Bill
looked to be derailing his progress and, as my right hon. leads to, will unify the British people by giving them the
Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) chance to step outside ever closer political union while
explained so well, he buckled and did what he and the maintaining the strong links of culture, friendship,
previous Prime Minister said they would never do: co-operation and trade that we all warmly welcome.
create a border down the Irish sea. Less commented on The hon. Member for Cambridge asks how we represent
is how he buckled under pressure from Farage when he and recognise the concerns of those who voted to
threatened to put up candidates in every seat. That was remain. That is how I propose we do that—by ensuring
when no deal was brought back: by that promise to not close links of trade, friendship, culture and co-operation.
allow an extra extension of the transition period. We
know it is all a stunt and negotiating ploy, but it shows There is something else we can do to show that we are
that pressure works, so I say: keep the pressure on the not just a talking shop in this House, arguing and
Prime Minister. bickering among ourselves and failing to make decisions,
but that we can actually move the country forward. If
A so-called skinny trade deal might keep goods flowing,
there is one other thing I have heard that people desperately
and that is important, but so are the flows of people and
want, it is for us to move on and stop the endless
research collaboration, and however hard we try, we
bickering, arguing, changing our mind and failing to
will no longer be a voice in the room in those important
show leadership and decision. Ultimately, that leadership
negotiations. Instead, we will have an army of people in
is what we are here for; we are sent here to take decisions.
Brussels trying to persuade others to make the argument
We have the chance to do that today.
on our behalf—a delicious irony that we will come to
see. We will have to follow rules over which we have no When I listened to the Leader of the Opposition
influence in making. That is the future. People will earlier, it was so dismaying to realise that there is a cold
come to say, “Wouldn’t it be better if had some influence vacuum at the heart of Labour where there should be a
and a say?” That debate will come, but in the meantime policy. He seems to have learned nothing from the
we will have to live with what is a Brexit fiction, because preceding six weeks; if you do not keep the promises
in reality there is no Brexit. We always have to have a you make to the electorate at an election, they punish
relationship with our neighbours. The question is how we you. He fell back on the same tired scapegoating about
manage and negotiate that: do we have endless negotiations how we are going to sell the NHS to Donald Trump—we
and arguments, or do we live within a civilised set of are not—and how we are going to lead a charge to the
institutions and rules that make it so much better? bottom on safety standards. We heard the scaremongering
about maggot-infested orange juice that the Leader of
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Gary Streeter): Thank you. the Opposition has been using for months and which
You kept to time beautifully. has already been comprehensively debunked. Again, he
fell back on tired old scaremongering, because the
1.1 pm Opposition have nothing else to offer.
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): I, too, extend my Instead, we have a return to full democratic self-
congratulations to Mr Speaker, on this my first time government, which should be welcomed by everybody,
speaking after the election, although of course he is not no matter which side of the argument they hail from.
199 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 200
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Robert Courts] European Union—the values of openness, tolerance,
inclusivity, equality and trust in the public good. Those
That is something to welcome and cherish, no matter values are now under threat, from this Trumpian, populist
which side of this argument people come from. I urge Government, from right-wing populism and from bigots
everybody, when they go through the Lobby this afternoon, everywhere. For me and many of my constituents, leaving
to welcome that and to look forward to the future with the EU will be a profound and deep loss. There is a
positivity and hope. reason why many millions of us marched on the streets
and have gone out of our way to fight for a future
1.6 pm within the EU. Being European is an identity that we
Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): It is with want to keep. Allow us to keep it.
deep sadness and loss that I stand here, knowing that we
will now be leaving the EU. I regret that we will not be Several hon. Members rose—
able to hear the voices of the many people who have
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Gary Streeter): I am afraid
changed their mind and would now vote to remain in
that I must now impose a formal time limit of four
any final-say referendum and of all those young people
minutes.
who would get a chance to have a real say on their
future. For that, I am truly concerned. I am concerned
for the country and for those people’s futures. 1.11 pm
We are here, however, to scrutinise this legislation, Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): Thank you,
which does not even begin to meet the challenges that Mr Deputy Speaker. That means that if I take an
Brexit poses and which has had taken out all the elements intervention, I get an extra minute, does it not?
that matter. Importantly, this Prime Minister is stripping
Parliament of its voice and therefore denying the people Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): You would
and the country a say on their future. By scrapping lose lots of friends on the Government side.
powers for MPs to scrutinise future trade deals, we risk Mr Seely: We cannot have that.
being forced to accept lower standards as a price for
future trade agreements. Those trade deals will now be I would like to thank my constituents on the Isle of
conducted behind closed doors and without proper Wight for re-electing me. It remains a huge privilege to
scrutiny. The deals will have an impact on our communities, work on their behalf, and I look forward to continuing
our businesses and our people, risking workers’ rights, to do so. It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for
environmental regulation and food standards. Denying Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin), although I found her
Parliament a voice means that we are being denied arguments about our democracy straight after a very
democracy and people are being denied a voice. They clear general election result to be somewhat tortuous.
cannot call themselves a “people’s Government” if the As someone who is half English and half German, I
first thing they do is ignore the people’s representatives. love Europe, but I am not sure that I want to be part of
As MPs, we are here to ensure that our communities, the European Union—in fact, I know that I do not.
people’s livelihoods, businesses, jobs and futures are They are different things.
looked after and safeguarded. This Government are Groundhog day is ending, thank God. Democracy
taking away that opportunity. This deal fails to guarantee has reasserted itself. To quote the guitar piece that I am
the future of our environmental standards. The binding trying to learn for Christmas—Jeff Buckley’s cover—
part of the agreement contains nothing about environmental “Hallelujah”. The delay has been a disgrace, frankly.
standards across the UK, and the non-binding political MPs in a functioning democracy cannot choose which
declaration just notes that the parties should maintain votes to respect, and they cannot call for new referendums
those important environmental standards. With only because they did not like the previous results.
11 months in which to negotiate a trade deal with the The Labour party has been defenestrated because it
EU, the risk of no deal has significantly increased, and refused to honour the pledge it made in 2017. We hear
that is the worst of all scenarios. two different versions of the future: the one from the
What of our EU citizens? They should never become hon. Member for Cardiff North, which is effectively
the victims of Brexit. I speak to many of them in denial; and the one from the hon. Member for South
Cardiff North, and they are living in fear and anxiety Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), which is to accept the result
over their future. Some of them have lived here most of and try to rebuild. One offers a route out for the Labour
their lives, with children born here and lives rooted party, and the other offers a route to an existential crisis
firmly here. EU citizens must be assured of their rights and a chance never to hold power again. It is up to the
and they should be immediately granted the full rights Labour party which way it goes. Throughout the summer
that they enjoy today—the EU will reciprocate in respect we saw the Labour leadership, led by several of the new
of UK citizens living in the EU. By taking away Lord leadership candidates, tying itself in tortuous knots, like
Dubs’s amendment to safeguard child refugees, the some sort of incompetent Houdini, and then being
Prime Minister and his party, the one apparently founded forever unable to untie itself.
to conserve, are eroding the rights and values we hold so The hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood
dear, selling out the things that make this country great. (Helen Hayes) was absolutely right to say that her folks
This has become an exit not only from the EU, but from did not vote for Brexit, and she is right to champion
our responsibilities and from common decency, and I remain. However, of over 100 Labour seats in the
shall be voting against it today. previous Parliament, 52 had leave majorities of over
Finally, let me end by saying that the Bill will not 60%, and eight had leave majorities of more than 70%.
strip me of my European identity. I will always be both Many of those former hon. Members are now looking
European and Welsh in equal measure. My values and for jobs because they did not listen to their people.
my identity have been formed from being part of the There is a lesson there for all of us.
201 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 202
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Seventeen million people voted to leave because they “Vulnerable children are not bargaining chips. We should not
felt that the political system no longer represented be exploiting their misery for political purposes, but defending
them. The European Union was not always part of the them as our own.”
problem but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for On trade, a special adviser to the previous Prime
South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) Minister, Raoul Ruparel, warned in a recent paper
said, it was not part of the solution either. published by the Institute of Government that the UK
I am delighted that we are leaving the European Union, is not match-fit for the next phase of negotiations. I
because there has always been a relentless federalising hope that the Government address that point.
agenda with which Britons have felt uncomfortable. Finally, I want to address the issue raised in clause 26,
This is now our chance to chart a different course for a which allows Ministers to give binding instructions by
new great project. This great project is partly about regulation to any court of the country and refers to how
leaving the European Union but, as the Prime Minister to interpret, and even to disapply, EU retained case law
has said, it is also partly about restoring folks’ faith in as well as domestic case law that relates to EU retained
democracy and trust. law. My constituent, Ricardo Salustio, a partner in an
I therefore look forward to voting for this great and international law firm, contacted me last night with his
important Bill—it is a good Christmas present for many concerns about clause 26. He said:
of our constituents. We respect remainers who voted to
“Given the wide application of EU retained law, by allowing
stay, but we have a withdrawal deal and we can get it for EU retained case law and related domestic case law to be
through, and we can respect both sides while recognising interpreted by the executive, Parliament would breach the fundamental
that we are a leave nation and we need to deliver for principle that courts should be independent and that parties in
those people who voted in the 2016 referendum. civil and criminal matters need to have certainty of interpretation
when involved in a dispute.”
1.14 pm
For these and many other reasons outlined by my
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): I
colleagues on this side of the House I will vote against
would like to thank the voters of Brentford and Isleworth,
this Bill.
including Chiswick, Osterley and Hounslow, for returning
me to Parliament last Thursday. I commit to continue
serving them to the best of my ability.
1.18 pm
The Prime Minister may have a majority in the House,
but he does not have a majority in the country. Every Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): I should like to
opinion poll bar one this year showed that a majority begin by thanking the voters of Dudley South—not just
would vote to remain in a new referendum. In the the 68% who voted to return me to the House for the
general election, some 53% voted for parties promising third time but the other 32% who took part in a well-spirited
to hold a new referendum. As my hon. Friend the Member and fair campaign.
for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook)
Throughout the six weeks of the general election
said, Brexit is a process, not an act that can be done
campaign, knocking on doors not only around Dudley
quickly. Leaving a series of complex relationships built
South but in Dudley North, West Bromwich East, West
up over 40 years in just a year will be complex, so on
Bromwich West and seats around the Black Country, a
behalf of voters who voted to remain, like the majority
response kept coming back, time and time again. It did
of my constituents, and those who voted to leave we
not take slogans from political candidates or election
have a duty to scrutinise this Bill, which will have
broadcasts to raise the phrase, “Get Brexit done.” It was
far-reaching effects on our constituents, including those
coming from people on the doorstep. There was a
who did not have a vote last Thursday—the citizens of
determination—an impatience—to get Brexit done. This
other EU countries living here in the UK.
Bill will take us one step closer to doing what we should
Never has proper scrutiny of a Bill been more important, have done a long time ago, and ensure that we get Brexit
and never have we had a PM who spends so much effort done and do as we were told—as we were instructed—in
avoiding scrutiny. We have noticed that when he cannot the 2016 referendum.
avoid the question he responds with a posh-bloke version
of Vicky Pollard from “Little Britain”: “Nah but, yah In all the seats I have campaigned in over the last two
but—”. months, and particularly in areas with higher working-class
This is the most important legislation in the House populations—areas that, for many years have voted for
for many years, redrawing our relationship with our Labour candidates and returned Labour Members of
allies and partners of 40 years, but we have just three Parliament—the overwhelming sense was frustration.
days to debate it. Just a week after the election, it seems People were tired of being ignored by their representatives,
that promises on workers’ rights have been dropped. I and Brexit was an obvious example. More than anything
heard Government Members suggest that that is okay, else, on the European Union and European policy, they
because we can have higher standards than EU members, were tired of being patronised by so many people who
but let me remind them that the EU sets minimum would claim to represent them.
standards for workers’ rights. There is only one reason We have even heard some of those sentiments today
to remove minimum standards, and that is because you from those on the Opposition Benches. We have heard
want to fall below them. suggestions that, somehow, whether in the general election
On child refugees, the Government are now threatening or the referendum campaign, those who voted for Brexit
to scrap the right of refugee children to be reunited with and who have now voted overwhelmingly for a Conservative
their families in the UK—how cruel is that? The Government, ensuring a strong Conservative majority,
Government claim that removal of the clause on refugee either did not understand the question because they
children is just for the purpose of negotiation, but my were misled by lies or clever slogans, or had prejudices
friend Lord Dubs said today: that meant they could not take a fair decision.
203 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 204
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Mike Wood] When it comes to citizens’ rights, the rights of child
refugees, environmental protection and food standards,
Those sentiments, which have, unfortunately, been the Government and Conservative Back Benchers say
expressed by a few Opposition Members, and particularly to us, “That is not in the Bill, but trust the Prime
by Labour Members, say rather more about those Members Minister.” Last week, Scotland gave the Prime Minister
than about voters up and down our country who have a very clear message: “We do not believe you, we do not
voted three times now for Britain to leave the European trust you and we will not allow you to take our nation
Union. They voted in that referendum. They voted for out of this union of nations against the expressed will
two parties in 2017, both of which promised faithfully of our people.” That will was expressed in 2016 and
that they were committed to implementing the referendum 2017, and twice in 2019. The Government are reaching
result. And then, last week, when it turned out that the out across the House, but when will they listen?
main Opposition party did not actually mean what it We heard a lot from earlier speakers about how
said about keeping that promise, they voted to return a important it is for a Government to abide by their
Conservative Government who will, giving them a good manifesto, and what happens to parties when they do
majority. not. I suggest that as part of their Christmas reading,
The Leader of the Opposition has spent most of the Conservative Members look at the manifesto on which
last week trying to persuade anybody who will listen the national Government of Scotland were elected in
that the reason for his party’s worst election performance 2016. I suggest that they look, in particular, at the
in over 80 years was Brexit, rather than his hopeless mandate that was sought, and given, as to what Scotland
leadership. It is therefore extremely disappointing that should do if and when we are taken out of the European
he intends to march his Members of Parliament through Union against our will.
the Division Lobby this afternoon to once again ignore I ask reasonable Conservative Members—I know
voters, many of whom, until last week, had been lifelong that there are quite a few—to please speak to their Prime
Labour supporters and Labour voters. One person I Minister and warn him about what will happen if he
spoke to had been a Labour supporter going back to attempts to stand in the way of a democratically elected
when they voted for Clement Attlee in 1951, but they national Government who are doing no more than
could no longer vote for this Labour party, because it delivering on the promises that they were trusted to deliver
does not speak for them or listen to them. I will therefore by the people of Scotland. Brexit is essentially about
be supporting the Bill today. England’s inability to sort out its relationship with
Europe. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted against
1.22 pm
Brexit, and Wales voted for it but without a great deal
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): I am pleased to be of enthusiasm. I say to Members who represent English
able to speak in the debate. I will be speaking and voting constituencies that if they take this step and go past the
against the Bill, as I did two months ago. In the intervening point of no return in their relationship with their neighbours
period, I have had the endorsement of 51.5% of my across the North sea, the channel and the Irish sea, they
electorate, for which I am enormously grateful. More will also take England past the point of no return in its
importantly, my constituents voted by a majority of Union with its neighbour across the Solway firth.
four to one for candidates who were opposed to the Bill.
My nation—my one nation—voted by three to one for 1.26 pm
candidates and parties that are against it. Therefore, to Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): It is
everyone who has told the Scottish National party and an absolute pleasure to deliver this speech with you in
Opposition parties of Scotland that there is now some the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, albeit only briefly. It is a
kind of duty on us to tag along with the Prime Minister, great honour to speak while you are in the Chair and to
I say there is not. The only duty that any MP from follow the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant). I
Scotland can possibly discharge is to vote against this start by placing on record my great thanks to the people
Bill, vote against this Brexit, and vote against a Government of St Austell and Newquay for returning me to this
who are determined to show their complete contempt House for the third time. I do not take any of their votes
for the sovereign status of the citizens of Scotland— for granted, and I will continue to serve my constituents
sovereign status that this Parliament unanimously agreed to the best of my ability.
less than two years ago. I will be supporting the Bill, and I want briefly to give
I hear people saying that this is a great time and a three reasons why I believe that that is the right thing to
great victory for the people. The Secretary of State do. The first and most important reason is that the Bill
wrote to us all yesterday to say what a great advance the delivers on the referendum result. It gets Brexit done.
Bill was for the rights of citizens. No, it is not. There is Those of us who have been in this place for the last
not a single citizen of these islands whose rights will be three and a half years have spent far too long going
enhanced by the passage of the Bill. Tens of millions of round and round in circles, frustrating the life out of the
citizens will see their rights diminished. Three million country while we make no progress at all. At last, after
are now having to call into question yet again whether three and a half long years, we get to cross the line and
they will continue to have the right to live, work and love pass this Bill so that we can all move on. We get to do
here, as they always have done. what we told the people we would do in 2016: take back
The Prime Minister made promises before the control of our laws, our borders and our money. This
referendum, on 1 June 2016, but he broke those promises. Bill paves the way for us to do just that. At last, we have
I challenged him about that on 25 July 2019—Members a Parliament that is willing to make that decision, and
can check Hansard if they want—and he promised that that reflects what the people voted for in 2016.
EU citizens would continue to have exactly the same The second reason why I believe it is right to support
rights after Brexit as they have just now, but he then the Bill is that it ends all the uncertainty. When the
published this Bill, which tears up those promises. general election result came through just last week,
205 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 206
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
I heard loud and clear a huge sigh of relief from people As bad as this free trade agreement is, however, no
right across my constituency and the country, because deal would be even more dramatic, as all the evidence
we can end the uncertainty at long last. We can end the also shows—so catastrophic, indeed, that one does not
debate about whether we will leave the EU, and we can like considering it—with not a 7% impact on economic
get on and move forward. That is what business wants, growth, but a 9% impact over 15 years, affecting not
and it is actually what the EU wants. It was quite clear just us but our children and grandchildren. We need to
that the EU welcomed the result of the general election, recognise that because, under clause 33, I fear that that
because it provided a clear pathway forward instead of is unfortunately a real danger. I beg the Government to
our continuing to go round and round in circles. do all they can in the forthcoming weeks and months to
Some Opposition Members have made points—I am prevent that from happening.
sure that, in their view, those points were very valid—about A lot of us who fought the general election will have
things that are missing from this Bill but were in previous views on what it meant. I will hold off taking any firm
proposals. I say to those Members that they had their views until the new year, when I see the survey by the
chance. They could have voted for the withdrawal agreement British Election Study, which publishes the most reliable
in the spring and had the things that they mourn the evidence that we can get on elections. However, I cannot
loss of today. They could have backed this withdrawal ignore what constituents were saying to me. They ignored
agreement just a few weeks ago. The things that they or did not believe the evidence—or, even worse, did not
regret are now missing were in the previous Bill, but care. There is a lot that we—politics and politicians—need
they decided to play party politics and take a huge to take on board regarding what that means about how
gamble. Well, I am sorry, but that gamble was lost. The we conduct ourselves. The emotional response to
British people have spoken. We are going to end the Brexit—and that is what it has been—is a lesson for all
uncertainty and we are going to deliver Brexit. of us.
The third reason is that the Bill paves the way for our I reiterate that I categorically reject the Bill, but I
future outside the European Union and provides the want to work with the Government to make sure that
path to secure free trade agreements. I believe that we we ameliorate its worst effects so that it will not harm
can secure an agreement by this time next year, because my constituents. I implore the Government to listen
we have seen that, when there is a hard deadline, the and to do all they can to build a consensus.
European Union can and will move quickly. I therefore
welcome the inclusion of a hard deadline, which says 1.35 pm
that we will not extend or delay any further, but focus Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con): It is a
on ensuring that we get a trade agreement with the EU. privilege to be returned to this place to represent my
Also, the Bill opens us up as a country to the rest of home area of North East Derbyshire, and I am grateful
the world. I believe that, far from diminishing our place for the opportunity to be here again. As my constituents
in the world, passing the Bill and leaving the European would expect, I rise to support the Bill and will vote
Union under this withdrawal agreement paves the way with the Government this afternoon.
for a truly global Britain to engage with the rest of the It is just over a year since I stood among these
world. Some of the things said in this Chamber sometimes Benches during the initial iteration of the Bill and, with
make it seem that the world is just the European Union—it great regret, had to say that I would not support my
is not. There is a great big world outside the European Government. All of us who served in the previous
Union, and I look forward to our being able to engage Parliament, particularly on these Benches, regret what
with it as an independent nation once again. happened in the last year or so: wherever we stood and
whatever our views, a fog descended on this place,
1.31 pm affecting people who were otherwise rational and willing
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) and able to look at the wider picture. It paralysed our
(Lab): It is pleasure to see you in the Chair once again, politics.
Mr Deputy Speaker. I, too, thank my constituents who Today marks a really important stage for many of us:
voted to return me for the fourth time last week and we can start to move on. When that fog descended, we
welcome all new Members to this place. I also extend became paralysed and the issue stopped being the European
my heartfelt commiserations to colleagues who have not Union, what trade deals we might do in the future and
been returned. They will be sorely missed. what regulation we might adopt; it became a basic
There is so much wrong with this Bill—even more question of trust. I do not say that with any triumphalism
than in October. My real concerns are about its impact to the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern),
on the economy. Although we do not have an economic who is no longer in her place but who made an excellent
assessment—an issue in itself that the Government speech some minutes ago; I say it with relief that we are
need to look at carefully—we have enough analysis now able to deliver on the decision of the British people.
from economists to show that such a free trade agreement However profoundly some people in this place disagree
will have a dramatic impact, with a 7% loss in growth with that, it is a basic principle that we all need to
over 15 years, as has been mentioned. We already know—I remember. That is why I will be going through the Aye
am sure that people are aware of this—about the growing Lobby today.
impact on poverty from a faltering economy and the I also want to address something raised by some who
growing inequalities that we are experiencing in this are no longer in their places, particularly the hon.
country. The impact that this type of deal will have on Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse). There is a weird
that, as well as on public services, which are already conflation in this place, which I regret hugely, that
emaciated, cannot be overestimated. Nor must we forget liberal values, which I share, cannot be epitomised or
the regional disparities. There is no doubt that there will espoused by those of us who also believe in leaving the
be an impact on constituencies such as mine. European Union. The European Union is not the panacea
207 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 208
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Lee Rowley] in our agreement on the more than 11 reports we
produced. We were critical of the Government at times,
for everything in this country, but I also say that it has and rightly so—I hope that the right hon. Gentleman
done many good things. I am someone who believes in would expect us to be critical of him when he gets
the values of openness, tolerance, inclusivity, being things wrong—but we went at it constructively by looking
welcoming, wanting to be internationalist and wanting at the facts and the data and by working hard to press
to work with countries all across the world and in the Government to do a better job.
Europe. I am also a Brexiteer. Even if people profoundly I will list my reasons for not voting to give the Bill its
disagree with me, I think that an intellectual case can be Second Reading, and I hope the Government will listen.
made for being both. What those who advocate liberalism We will vote against it not because we are sore losers,
in this place must consider is that their conflation of but because there are valid reasons to believe that this
those values with remaining will do their cause a great rushed Bill and rushed debate could result in real problems
disservice over the long term. for the future.
Finally, I appeal, although as one who has been here The Bill is weak on workers’ rights—that is categorically
only two years, to those who have served in the Chamber clear. It is a poor argument to assume that there will be
for a while. The debate today has been good in many a trickle down of benefits when businesses allegedly—or
senses, but some people have already started to retreat hopefully, as the Government would say—do well. Very
into their comfort zones. We have already started to many people in my constituency are working several
hear the excuses—“I would support this in principle but low-paid jobs on irregular contracts. They are very
am unable to do so”, for some confected or real reason. insecure. I cannot see how they will experience the
The greatest speech today came from the hon. Member benefits. I want to see protection in law.
for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), who is no longer The provision to provide support for unaccompanied
in her place. She stood up and said, “I didn’t agree with asylum seeker children has been removed. I have been
this, but I am going to vote for it.” I happen to agree dealing with this issue as an elected politician since
with it. In time, I may disagree with something else, but 1994, when I was a councillor and we found children
if the people say it I hope that I will be enough of a wandering alone on Holloway Road in Islington. It is
democrat to recognise that. important to work in partnership with the EU to deal
What I really regret is that if we had spent one iota of with that. Let us not forget why they come—trafficking.
the time we spent talking about Brexit in the past two Let us deal with the cause, not the symptom. It is mean
and a half years talking instead about the things that spirited to take out that provision. There are also many
will challenge our areas in the next 20 years—automation, issues relating to security, but we do not have time to go
artificial intelligence, machine learning, big data—we into them today. As a Home Office Minister, I negotiated
would have been preparing our country for those coming many of these issues on behalf of the British Government
challenges. Let us get this done, and let us talk about all when Labour was last in government, which was some
the other important things that we need to do. time ago.
1.39 pm I say respectfully to the right hon. Gentleman that
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ the decision to remove the possibility of extending the
Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, implementation period is a foolish step, because it allows
Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the hon. Member for no wiggle room. I know that the Government have a
North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), who spoke great belief that setting a deadline will give them greater
characteristically thoughtfully and without triumphalism. ability to negotiate, but I think there is a real risk that
He was absolutely right to do so—I speak as someone they could end up throwing the baby out with the bath-
who represents a constituency that voted 78% for remain— water. That would not bring the country together.
and this debate must continue in that tone. We are also going to see quangos rising like the phoenix,
Let us be clear about why we are here. There has been as many European regulations will have to be replicated
a total failure of political craft. In 2015 even I voted for in British law. So much for the bonfire of red tape.
the referendum, because it is a convention of this House On immigration, I tremble. Between us, my right hon.
to support a majority Government in the early days of Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke
their administration. The Conservative party won the Newington (Ms Abbott) and I represent 40,000 EU
2015 general election and I backed that referendum, citizens. It is foolhardy of the Government to believe
against many of my instincts. From then on, there was that they can suddenly change the immigration system
failure: things were slow, cumbersome, secretive and and achieve a great, simple new deal. I have been there. I
there was a lot of dither. Then, very reluctantly and late have seen 10 years of it getting worse, and the Government
in the day, I came to the idea of a second referendum as need to heed that warning very carefully. I am also
a way of breaking that impasse, but, even in my very concerned about the time allocated for this debate.
remain constituency, that was not part of the major It has been too short and it is not democratic.
discourse in the 2017 general election. We have to
remember that. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the 1.43 pm
entrenchment of positions when debating this issue, but Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): I welcome you to
I urge Government Members to remember that, too. your place, Mr Deputy Speaker. I hope you enjoy your
The Secretary of State and I—and, indeed, the hon. time in the Chair.
Member for North East Derbyshire—once served together It is a pleasure to be back in Parliament. Today feels a
on the Public Accounts Committee. Over the past two little like groundhog day again, but I hope this will be
years, the Committee membership has represented every the final time and that we move on. All of us have given
range of views on Brexit. It would not be possible to the same speech on Brexit over and over again for the
find a more diverse range of views, yet we were unanimous past two and a half years. The cyclical and repetitive
209 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 210
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
debate got us nowhere, but the election has provided a this oven-ready deal that we are being served up and
decisive breakthrough. We have made promises for so asked to consume very quickly today. On that basis,
long, so it is fantastic to be able to deliver for the people there still should be a public vote on the deal, because
of this country and to begin to legislate to get Brexit this is about the long-term future of Britain. [Interruption.]
done. I know that people do not agree with me, but my
This may be the perfect day in politics, because not judgment is that we are going to be poorer, weaker,
only are we able to begin that process, but the Attorney more divided and isolated.
General has gifted us his version of “The Night Before People in my constituency who voted leave—many
Christmas”, which will make for a very festive time and did, of course—voted for more money, more control
should meet with universal acclaim. This is a fantastic and more jobs, and they will judge this deal on whether
day for us all. the Government deliver that. I say to Members who
The people of Mansfield voted 71% to leave in the have taken Labour seats on the back of “Get Brexit
referendum and they have shared the frustration and done” that if we do not deliver those things that leave
anger felt by many in this place over the past two and a voters asked for, they will be very unhappy. In fact, they
half years. They wanted us to be grown-ups and to sort will not just be unhappy; they will have lost their jobs,
this thing out. They were decisive in this election, too: and I assume that they will come back to the Labour party.
they returned me to this place with an increased majority We are leaving the single market, one of the primary
for our mandate. I thank them profusely. I intend to architects of which was, of course, Margaret Thatcher,
serve them with all sincerity and to the best of my who saw it as probably the most perfect free and fair
ability in this Parliament, and that starts with beginning trade market in the world. Today we are saying not just
to deliver this Bill today. I tell them that there is now no that we will have no alignment—or that we will not have
reason or excuse why we cannot get this done by 31 January. dynamic alignment—but that we will have dynamic
We will get it delivered and we will do exactly as we have misalignment. In other words, as the European Union
promised. I am sure that the majority of my constituents changes its rules, we will change our rules in a different
will celebrate that fact. way. That means the prospects of agreeing a deal within
I welcome the new commitment in the Bill to the 2020 12 months will become vanishingly small, and the prospects
deadline for a trade deal. We saw the impact of a of knowing that we will agree a deal in six months—by
never-ending, constantly moving deadline in the previous June—are even smaller.
Parliament. It simply did not work and it weakened our China, the United States and other countries will
hand. Now we have the ability to show the strength and look at us and see that we are increasingly turning our
determination that the Prime Minister has shown back on our biggest markets, and that gives them more
throughout his time in office. Opposition Members power in negotiations. We stand alone, turning our
have consistently raised the issues of workers’ rights back on the EU, and when we talk to the United States
and regulatory standards, but this is not a Bill about they will say that they do not want any environmental
workers’ rights or regulatory standards. It is not true to or climate change considerations in the trade deals, as
say that there will be an inevitable decline in those they already have. They do not really care that much
things as a result of our leaving the European Union. about food standards; they want hormone-impregnated
The point of all this is that this House and this country meat and chlorinated chicken. They want our NHS
will decide our own regulatory standards. database and to enforce patents so that drugs will be
The Opposition continue to miss the point of what more expensive. They also sell asbestos and all the rest
Brexit was about. There was a well-known slogan in the of it. As we move away from the regulatory protection
referendum about control; hon. Members may remember of the EU, we are in their hands.
it. For many people, Brexit was largely about control When we have trade talks with China, we will obviously
and the sovereign powers of this Parliament. Aligning have to be on bended knee. They will say, “Don’t
ourselves to EU directives would therefore defeat the mention human rights, Hong Kong and all that sort of
entire purpose of Brexit. This UK Parliament can go stuff. Just stick to the point and do what we say.” They
further, faster and better than the European Union in are already building HS2 and a lot of other infrastructure
areas such as the environment and workers’ rights, and here. If this is about democracy, it is important that
it will be we in this place who will decide. That is exactly Parliament has greater scrutiny of these trade deals and
what all of us who have pushed to get this thing over the that we go into these things with our eyes open.
line over the past few years have been waiting for.
Finally, on human rights, I am very concerned about
I will back the Bill today. I look forward to planning—
the issue of unaccompanied minors. Frankly, it has a
with certainty this time—for a celebration in my
strange echo of Donald Trump, who has separated
constituency on 31 January. I have huge optimism for
children from their parents who are refugees and put
the future of this country under this fantastic, decisive
them in detention camps—our great friend, Donald
and determined Conservative Government.
Trump. At the same time, we see in the Queen’s Speech
the abolition of the BBC, and the civil service and the
1.46 pm judiciary are also under threat. Our fundamental values
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): It is shared across Europe of democracy, human rights and
clear that the Conservatives overwhelmingly won the the rule of law are under threat. All new Members must
election for a variety of reasons, but on the Brexit front think carefully about what is in the balance here. I know
it is also the case that 16.5 million people voted for that they are driving through in great merriment on the
remain parties, compared with 14.5 million people who back of “Get Brexit done”, in pre-Christmas pantomime
voted for leave parties. In fact, including the parties that mode, but we need to think about what is best for Britain
do not support a particular deal—namely, the Brexit and best for democracy, and that means proper scrutiny
party—there are 18.1 million people who do not support of this Bill.
211 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 212
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Gary Streeter): Last but who said that they would not be voting; they wanted to
certainly not least, Mr Mark Pawsey. opt out. That is not unusual, because many people have
a low opinion of politicians, but I sensed that at this
1.50 pm election, more people were intending not to vote or to
waste their vote because they had voted in the referendum,
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Thank you, Sir Gary. It
and the politicians had not delivered on what they voted
is a great pleasure to be the tail-ender in a debate that
for. We in this place cannot choose which votes we wish
has had a very welcome change in tone from that of
to respect, and we are now able to deliver for all those
previous debates on this topic. First, I thank the voters
who voted in the general election and the referendum.
of Rugby and Bulkington for returning me for the
fourth time with an increased majority, which I think is
the case for almost all Conservative Members and is an 1.54 pm
endorsement of our party’s attitude. I will be supporting Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): This
the Bill to leave the European Union this afternoon, as I has been a good debate on an extremely important Bill,
have done on four previous occasions. but before I turn to the Bill, let me welcome the Secretary
I want to reflect on the effect on business. On the of State back to his place. Let me also welcome all new
Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, Members throughout the House to their places, and to
we looked at the impact of leaving the EU on the the part that they will play in this Parliament. I hope
automotive, aerospace, food and drink and pharmaceutical they will be given the support and comfort that they
sectors, and in each case, business leaders told us of few need, wherever they sit.
benefits of leaving the EU and their concerns that what I want to make special mention of those making
benefits there were would be outweighed by the harm. maiden speeches. We have heard three today, and, in the
Much of the harm has been the uncertainty that business best traditions across the House, they have been thoughtful
has had to go through over the past two and a half and powerful. I always find maiden speeches a relief,
years. Businesses want to see frictionless trade, to be because the House goes quiet and actually listens, just
able to continue with just-in-time supply chains and to for five or 10 minutes, to what the Member is saying.
retain access to a market of 500 million consumers on That is quite refreshing, because we do not do it often
their doorstep. I know from my business career before enough. I think that both the speeches themselves and
arriving here that it is easiest to deal with our closest the way in which the House listened to them have
neighbours, and that will be very important in the provided a good example of a tradition that we need to
comprehensive trade deal that we conduct with the continue.
EU once we have left. It will be important not to neglect We have heard other very good contributions from
what is on our doorstep. Members on both sides of the House. In the main, the
The business view about the need to get Brexit done is tone has been markedly different from that of previous
just as strong as the one that all of us encountered on debates. Let us keep it that way. The hon. Member for
the doorsteps. As a west midlands MP, I am very Fareham (Suella Braverman), whom I used to face
concerned about the impact on the automotive sector. across the Dispatch Box, is no longer in the Chamber. I
Many of my constituents work for Jaguar Land Rover, cannot pretend that I agree with very much of what she
and many of the companies in my constituency are in says, but on this occasion she said that this was her first
the supply chain. It is of concern that the figures speech since she had become a mum. I am sure that I
released today by the Society of Motor Manufacturers speak for the whole House in congratulating her, and all
and Traders show UK output down year on year, partly those who have become new parents since Parliament
because of shutdowns that were put in place to deal was dissolved.
with concerns about the disruption caused by potentially We have had a general election. There is a clear
leaving the EU without a deal on 31 October. It is winner with a clear majority. I say this to Conservative
important that we have now got that uncertainty out of Members: with that majority, be careful. Doing things
the way, and businesses will be able to grow and develop. because the Government have a majority does not mean
We will start to see substantial investment. In fact, that those things are right. Clause 37 of the Bill is an
over the last couple of years, despite the uncertainty of example. It concerns unaccompanied child refugees.
Brexit, there has been substantial private sector investment Lord Dubs—Alf Dubs—launched an incredible campaign
in my constituency. Meggitt, which is involved in making to protect child refugees post Brexit. It has been running
components for the aerospace market, is currently building for several years, and Members on both sides of the
the biggest factory that has been built in the UK for House have supported it and spoken powerfully
10 years. Moto is building a new motorway service area about the issue of unaccompanied child refugees.
at junction 1 of the M6 in Rugby, and local builder and The commitment that was in the previous Bill has been
developer Stepnell has just delivered a whole range of taken out, and that is a moral disgrace, majority or no
medium-sized industrial units ready for existing businesses majority. I know that Members will go into the Lobby
to expand into. Developments on that scale at a time to vote for this Bill, and I understand that, but many of
of great uncertainty lead me to be extremely confident them will feel strongly about unaccompanied child refugees,
that there is a pipeline of new projects that can now and I ask them just to reflect for a moment on that.
get started, because we are on our way to leaving the I turn to those on my own Benches. We may have lost
European Union, and that will benefit communities the general election, but we have not lost our values and
and workers across the UK. our beliefs. We must fight for them day in day out in this
In my last minute, I want to refer to the effect on Parliament, and we will.
democracy. I noted the remarks of my right hon. Friend Let me address the central issue. As a result of the
the Member for Ashford (Damian Green). I, too, talked general election—as a result of the majority that the
to many constituents on the doorsteps during the campaign Government have, and the mandate that they have—we
213 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 214
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
are leaving the EU. We will have left the EU within the and weakened protections for child refugees—tell us
next six months, and whatever side we were on, or even everything we need to know about the Prime Minister
if we were on no side at all, the leave-remain argument and this Government, their priorities and their values.
will go with us. That does not mean that the deal They are not Labour values. This is not a deal we can
negotiated by the Prime Minister is a good deal; it is support. We will be voting against it tonight.
not. It was a bad deal in October when it was signed, it
was a bad deal when it was first debated in the House in 2.3 pm
October, it was a bad deal last Thursday, and it is a bad
deal today. In fact, it is worse today. The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union
(Stephen Barclay): I join the right hon. and learned
Clause 30 in the previous Bill gave Parliament a role Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) in
in what happens next. There is a crucial decision to be welcoming new Members to the House, and in reflecting
taken in six months’ time as to whether there should be on the positive tone of the debate, which is in marked
an extension of any transition. Under the old Bill, that contrast with debates in the previous Parliament. I also
was a decision that we collectively in Parliament would join him in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member
take according to the evidence and circumstances as for Fareham (Suella Braverman), a new mum returning
they are in six months; a chance for Parliament to assess to make her valued contribution to this House.
where the negotiations had got to and come to a decision
on whether a deal would be negotiated within the The general election delivered a clear instruction to
period and take whatever measures are necessary to this House that we should leave the European Union.
prevent no deal. That has been swept away and taken Parliament must now reflect the will of the country and
out of the Bill; all the promises that were made from the make good on that democratic decision by backing this
Dispatch Box about a new approach and that Parliament Bill. The Bill is not a victory for one side over another.
would be involved. We were told only a few weeks’ ago The time has come to discard the old labels, to move
that the Prime Minister had learned the lessons and that from the past divisions and to come together as one
one of the lessons was that to plough on without taking United Kingdom.
Parliament with you was a mistake. There would be a Our country produced a mandate to leave the EU in
new approach, because Parliament would be involved. 2016, but the previous Parliament rejected it time and
At the first opportunity, that has been taken out. again. It has taken a second vote to ensure that the
mandate to leave is finally honoured. It is clear that the
The new clause 33 exacerbates that. It prevents the
people did know in 2016 what they were voting for after
extension of any transition period. That is reckless and
all. Despite the efforts of those determined not to
it is ridiculous. The Government have chosen to give
accept the referendum result, the House now has the
themselves just 11 months to negotiate an entire trade
opportunity to end the delay and to forge a new relationship,
deal and a security deal. That is an unbelievably short
both with our neighbours in Europe and, indeed, within
period. It can only lead to two outcomes: a bare bones
this House. In reflecting that spirit, I very much welcomed
trade deal or no deal. [Interruption.] I hear the chuntering.
the speech of the hon. Member for South Shields
If in November the negotiations have been going well—let
(Mrs Lewell-Buck), who said that she would support
us hope they do—but they are not complete, they need
the Bill in the Lobby today.
more time and two or three months would be enough,
clause 33 now says we leave without a deal. This does Before I turn to the substance of the Bill, may I
not just provide for the situation where the negotiations congratulate the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire
have broken down; it also demands no deal where they Hanna) on her very impressive maiden speech? She
are continuing. showed that she will contribute greatly to the work of
the House, and her point about reconciliation was
One of the other changes is clause 34 and schedule 4
timely. The hon. Member for North Down (Stephen
on employment rights and protections. They are now
Farry) also made an excellent maiden speech, as indeed
gone. It is said, “Oh well, we’ll put that in an employment
did the hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith), who
Bill.”Let us trace the history of that to test the proposition.
spoke powerfully of his opposition to Brexit, albeit
There is a Bill coming. Workplace rights were originally
after leaving an EU institution to come here. He has
in the internationally legally binding part of the deal
started his own Brexit as we vote on the Bill.
agreed by the previous Prime Minister. They were stripped
out by this Prime Minister. They were put into the first The Bill delivers certainty for our citizens living in
draft of the Bill before the general election, albeit in Europe, and EU citizens living here in the UK, by
weak form. On 22 October, in response to a question guaranteeing their rights as set out in part 3, including
from my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen through an independent monitoring authority, which
(Tracy Brabin), the Prime Minister said: will rightly hold the Government to account. There will
be a grace period to ensure that nobody is left behind
“People will need reassurance…There can be no regression.”—
[Official Report, 22 October 2019; Vol. 666, c. 828.] in registering for the EU settlement scheme. The Bill
also protects frontier workers. It recognises professional
They have now been stripped out and the direction of qualifications and, indeed, provides for fair rights of
travel is very clear. Nobody should be taken in by appeal. That is because we value the contribution of
assurances about any forthcoming Bill. The Prime Minister EU citizens who have built their lives in our country,
this morning referenced the Factory Acts. It is worth and the Bill will guarantee their right to continue to
dusting off the Factory Acts, if that is the level of do so.
ambition for future workplace rights and the shining
example we are heading for. Sir John Hayes: My right hon. Friend is right to draw
The Bill started life as a bad Bill. It is now even worse. attention to the value that has been given to this country
The changes the Government have made—weakened by those who have travelled here, but the point about
protections for workplace rights, a side-lined Parliament that, as he said when he spoke of accountability, is that
215 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 216
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Sir John Hayes] Sir David Evennett: I am listening with great interest
to my right hon. Friend. Can he also confirm that when
such decisions should be made by this Parliament, we leave the EU we will have control over our taxes
which is accountable to the British people. That is why I again and the ability to make decisions on them, including
anticipate our policies on migration, which we will VAT?
now have a chance to effect as a result of the passage of
this Bill. Stephen Barclay: My right hon. Friend is right. One
has only to look at what our manifesto commits us to
Stephen Barclay: My right hon. Friend has always do once we have control of our taxes and at what the
been a champion of the sovereignty of the House, and I Government have already done to raise the amount
will come on to how the Bill indeed champions the very people can earn before they pay tax. We believe in
sovereignty that I know he cares so passionately about. backing those who wish to work and provide for their
The Bill also unlocks confidence for our businesses families, and our tax system will do exactly that.
by ending dither and delay, which in turn will unlock Along with the terms of our withdrawal, the Bill
huge new investment in our economy, ensuring more reflects the political declaration, which sets out the
and better jobs. As my right hon. Friend has just framework for our future relationship. Now we need to
reflected, the Bill provides control for our Parliament. get on with negotiating on this basis so we can agree our
Clause 1 reinforces the repeal of the Act, which brought future relationship by the end of the implementation
European law into the UK. The Bill ensures parliamentary period on 31 December 2020. The shadow Brexit Secretary
scrutiny through the European Scrutiny Committee in referenced clause 33. That clause reinforces the
clause 29 and asserts parliamentary sovereignty through Government’s commitment in their manifesto not to
clause 38. The whole House will recognise the work of extend this period. Part 5 of the political declaration is
my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William clear: we are committed to developing in good faith
Cash) on this and on so many other issues reflected in agreements that give effect to our future relationship,
the Bill. The very essence of Brexit is that we will no the cornerstone of which is a comprehensive free trade
longer outsource our decisions to others in Brussels. agreement by the end of 2020.
The shadow Brexit Secretary said that clause 33 was
Ben Bradley: We have heard much from the Opposition ridiculous. It is not ridiculous to act on manifesto
about their fear of bringing such decisions back to the commitments that we have given to the electorate. It is
United Kingdom, particularly those around workers’ not ridiculous when the EU itself, in the political declaration,
rights. Will my right hon. Friend absolutely confirm has agreed to the timetable of the end of December
that this Government have every intention of protecting 2020. If that is the central concern of Opposition
and improving the rights of workers in this country, who Members, it would have been better reflected in talks on
overwhelmingly backed the Conservatives in this election? previous deals, when the Labour party raised many
other objections that underlined the fact that it simply
Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is a champion for did not want Brexit delivered at all.
workers’ rights and his constituents, and he will know
We now have a deal that reflects both the referendum—
that not only did our manifesto make that clear
the single largest democratic exercise in British history—and
commitment—on page 5—but did so in parallel with the
the defining issue of the general election. It is time to
Bill. The Bill is about implementing in domestic law
end the delay, to come together and heal our divisions
the international agreement that my right hon. Friend
and, above all, to listen to the people we serve. The
the Prime Minister has reached with the EU. This
British public have given their instruction. This Bill
House does not need other people to tell us how to
delivers Brexit. I commend it to the House.
protect the rights of workers and others. As my hon.
Friend well knows, in many areas this Parliament goes Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
further than the EU in safeguarding rights, not least in The House proceeded to a Division.
areas such as maternity and paternity rights. Following
the manifesto commitment to high standards, I look Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): I ask the Serjeant
forward to the House continuing that tradition and at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
maintaining good standards.
The House having divided: Ayes 358, Noes 234.
Mr Seely: One thing that concerns folks on the Isle of Division No. 1] [2.14 pm
Wight and the south coast is seeing super trawlers
hoovering up 250 tonnes of fish a day off Shanklin and AYES
Eastbourne. Is not one of the great benefits of the Bill, Adams, Nigel Bacon, Mr Gareth
our leaving the EU and our getting a new fisheries Bill Afolami, Bim Bacon, Mr Richard
that we will be able to stop super trawlers coming into Afriyie, Adam Badenoch, Mrs Kemi (Proxy
our seas, which we are not allowed to do at the moment Ahmad-Khan, Imran vote cast by Leo Docherty)
Aiken, Nickie Bailey, Shaun
because of our membership of the EU?
Aldous, Peter Baillie, Siobhan
Allan, Lucy Baker, Duncan
Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is right. One of the Amess, Sir David Baker, Mr Steve
key features of taking back control of our waters is this Anderson, Lee Baldwin, Harriett
Parliament making those decisions for itself. One of the Anderson, Stuart Barclay, rh Stephen
mysteries about Opposition Members is that those Ansell, Caroline Baron, Mr John
representing Scotland do not seem to have the self- Argar, Edward Baynes, Simon
confidence to take back those decision-making powers, Atherton, Sarah Bell, Aaron
but rather want to give them back to Europe. Atkins, Victoria Benton, Scott
217 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 218
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Beresford, Sir Paul Drummond, Mrs Flick Howell, John Mohindra, Gagan
Berry, rh Jake Duddridge, James Howell, Paul Moore, Damien
Bhatti, Saqib Duguid, David Huddleston, Nigel Moore, Robbie
Blackman, Bob Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hudson, Dr Neil Mordaunt, rh Penny
Bone, Mr Peter Dunne, rh Mr Philip Hughes, Eddie Morris, Anne Marie
Bottomley, Sir Peter Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Jane Morris, David
Bowie, Andrew Edwards, Ruth Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Morris, Grahame
Bradley, Ben Ellis, rh Michael Hunt, Tom Morris, James
Bradley, rh Karen Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jack, rh Mr Alister Morrissey, Joy
Brady, Sir Graham Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Javid, rh Sajid Morton, Wendy
Braverman, Suella Eustice, George Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mullan, Dr Kieran
Brereton, Jack Evans, Dr Luke Jenkin, Sir Bernard Mumby-Croft, Holly
Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Mr Nigel Jenkinson, Mark Mundell, rh David
Brine, Steve Evennett, rh Sir David Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Bristow, Paul Everitt, Ben Jenrick, rh Robert Murrison, rh Dr Andrew
Britcliffe, Sara Fabricant, Michael Johnson, rh Boris Neill, Robert
Brokenshire, rh James Farris, Laura Johnson, Gareth Nici, Lia
Browne, Anthony Fell, Simon Johnston, David Nokes, rh Caroline
Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Andrew Norman, rh Jesse
Buchan, Felicity Fletcher, Mark Jones, rh Mr David O’Brien, Neil
Buckland, rh Robert Fletcher, Nick Jones, Fay Offord, Dr Matthew
Burghart, Alex Ford, Vicky Jones, Mr Marcus Opperman, Guy
Burns, rh Conor Foster, Kevin Jupp, Simon Parish, Neil
Butler, Rob Fox, rh Dr Liam Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, rh Priti
Cairns, rh Alun Francois, rh Mr Mark Kearns, Alicia Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Frazer, Lucy Keegan, Gillian Pawsey, Mark
Carter, Andy
Freeman, George Knight, rh Sir Greg Penning, rh Sir Mike
Cartlidge, James
Freer, Mike Knight, Julian Penrose, John
Cash, Sir William
Fuller, Richard Kruger, Danny Percy, Andrew
Cates, Miriam
Fysh, Mr Marcus Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Perkins, Mr Toby
Caulfield, Maria Garnier, Mark Lamont, John Philp, Chris
Chalk, Alex Ghani, Ms Nusrat Largan, Robert Pincher, rh Christopher
Champion, Sarah Gibb, rh Nick Latham, Mrs Pauline Poulter, Dr Dan
Chishti, Rehman Gibson, Peter Leadsom, rh Andrea Pow, Rebecca
Chope, Sir Christopher Gideon, Jo Leigh, rh Sir Edward Prentis, Victoria
Churchill, Jo Glen, John Levy, Ian Pritchard, Mark
Clark, rh Greg Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Pursglove, Tom
Clarke, Mr Simon Gove, rh Michael Lewer, Andrew Quin, Jeremy
Clarke, Theo Graham, Richard Lewis, rh Brandon Quince, Will
Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grant, Mrs Helen Lewis, rh Dr Julian Raab, rh Dominic
Clarkson, Chris Gray, James Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Randall, Tom
Cleverly, rh James Grayling, rh Chris Loder, Chris Redwood, rh John
Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, Chris Logan, Mark Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Colburn, Elliot Green, rh Damian Longhi, Marco Richards, Nicola
Collins, Damian Griffith, Andrew Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Richardson, Angela
Cooper, Rosie Griffiths, Kate by Lee Rowley) Roberts, Rob
Costa, Alberto Grundy, James Lopresti, Jack Robertson, Mr Laurence
Gullis, Jonathan Loughton, Tim Rosindell, Andrew
Courts, Robert
Halfon, rh Robert Mackinlay, Craig Ross, Douglas
Coutinho, Claire
Hall, Luke Mackrory, Cherilyn Rowley, Lee
Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey
Hammond, Stephen Maclean, Rachel Russell, Dean
Crabb, rh Stephen
Hancock, rh Matt Mak, Alan Rutley, David
Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg Malthouse, Kit Sambrook, Gary
Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark Mangnall, Anthony Saxby, Selaine
Cruddas, Jon Harris, Rebecca Mann, Scott Scully, Paul
Daly, James Harrison, Trudy Marson, Julie Seely, Mr Bob
Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann May, rh Mrs Theresa Selous, Andrew
Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon Mayhew, Jerome Shapps, rh Grant
Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John Maynard, Paul Sharma, rh Alok
Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Davis, rh Mr David Heappey, James McCartney, Karl Simmonds, David
Davison, Dehenna Heaton-Harris, Chris McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, rh Chris
Dinenage, Caroline Henderson, Gordon McVey, rh Ms Esther Smith, Chloe
Dines, Miss Sarah Henry, Darren Menzies, Mark Smith, Greg
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Higginbotham, Antony Mercer, Johnny Smith, Henry
Docherty, Leo Hinds, rh Damian Merriman, Huw Smith, rh Julian
Donelan, Michelle Hoare, Simon Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Royston
Dorries, Ms Nadine Holden, Mr Richard Millar, Robin Solloway, Amanda
Double, Steve Hollinrake, Kevin Miller, rh Mrs Maria Spencer, Dr Ben
Dowden, rh Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Milling, Amanda Spencer, rh Mark
Doyle-Price, Jackie Holloway, Adam Mills, Nigel Stafford, Alexander
Drax, Richard Holmes, Paul Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew
219 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 220
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Stevenson, Jane Wakeford, Christian Gill, Preet Kaur Morden, Jessica
Stevenson, John Walker, Sir Charles Girvan, Paul Morgan, Mr Stephen
Stewart, Bob Walker, Mr Robin Glindon, Mary Murray, Ian
Stride, rh Mel Wallace, rh Mr Ben Grady, Patrick Murray, James
Stuart, Graham Wallis, Dr Jamie Grant, Peter Nandy, Lisa
Sturdy, Julian Warburton, David Gray, Neil Newlands, Gavin
Sunak, rh Rishi Warman, Matt Green, Kate O’Hara, Brendan
Sunderland, James Watling, Giles Greenwood, Lilian Olney, Sarah
Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Webb, Suzanne Greenwood, Margaret Onwurah, Chi
Syms, Sir Robert Whately, Helen Griffith, Nia Osamor, Kate
Thomas, Derek Wheeler, Mrs Heather Haigh, Louise Osborne, Kate
Throup, Maggie Whittaker, Craig Hamilton, Fabian Oswald, Kirsten
Timpson, Edward Whittingdale, rh Mr John Hanna, Claire Owatemi, Taiwo
Tolhurst, Kelly Wiggin, Bill Hanvey, Neale Owen, Sarah
Tomlinson, Justin Wild, James Hardy, Emma Paisley, Ian
Tomlinson, Michael Williams, Craig Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pennycook, Matthew
Tracey, Craig Williamson, rh Gavin Hayes, Helen Phillips, Jess
Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Wood, Mike Hendrick, Sir Mark Phillipson, Bridget
Trott, Laura Wragg, Mr William Hendry, Drew Pollard, Luke
Truss, rh Elizabeth Wright, rh Jeremy Hillier, Meg Qureshi, Yasmin
Tugendhat, Tom Young, Jacob Hobhouse, Wera Rayner, Angela
Vara, Mr Shailesh Zahawi, Nadhim Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Reed, Mr Steve
Vickers, Martin Hopkins, Rachel Rees, Christina
Tellers for the Ayes:
Vickers, Matt Iain Stewart and Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast
Villiers, rh Theresa Stuart Andrew Huq, Dr Rupa by Bambos Charalambous)
Hussain, Imran Reeves, Rachel
Jardine, Christine Reynolds, Jonathan
NOES Johnson, Diana Ribeiro-Addy, Bell
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Cooper, Daisy Johnson, Kim Rimmer, Ms Marie
Ali, Rushanara Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Darren Robinson, Gavin
Ali, Tahir Corbyn, rh Jeremy Jones, Gerald Rodda, Matt
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Cowan, Ronnie Jones, rh Mr Kevan Russell-Moyle, Lloyd
Amesbury, Mike Coyle, Neil Jones, Ruth Saville Roberts, rh Liz
Anderson, Fleur Crawley, Angela Jones, Sarah Shah, Naz
Antoniazzi, Tonia Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Kane, Mike Shannon, Jim
Ashworth, Jonathan cast by Peter Kyle) Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra
Bardell, Hannah Cunningham, Alex Khan, Afzal Sheppard, Tommy
Barker, Paula Daby, Janet Kyle, Peter Siddiq, Tulip
Beckett, rh Margaret Davey, rh Sir Edward Lake, Ben Slaughter, Andy
Begum, Apsana David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Alyn
Benn, rh Hilary Davies, Geraint Law, Chris Smith, Cat
Betts, Mr Clive Davies-Jones, Alex Lewis, Clive Smith, Nick
Black, Mhairi Day, Martyn Linden, David Smyth, Karin
Blackford, rh Ian De Cordova, Marsha Lloyd, Tony Sobel, Alex
Blackman, Kirsty Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lockhart, Carla Starmer, rh Keir
Blake, Olivia Docherty-Hughes, Martin Long Bailey, Rebecca Stephens, Chris
Blomfield, Paul Dodds, Anneliese Lucas, Caroline Stevens, Jo
Bonnar, Steven Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lynch, Holly Stone, Jamie
Brabin, Tracy Doogan, Dave MacAskill, Kenny Streeting, Wes
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dorans, Allan Madders, Justin Tami, rh Mark
Brennan, Kevin Doughty, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Tarry, Sam
Brock, Deidre Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Thewliss, Alison
Brown, Alan Duffield, Rosie Malhotra, Seema Thomas, Gareth
Brown, Ms Lyn Eagle, Ms Angela Maskell, Rachael Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eagle, Maria Matheson, Christian Thompson, Owen
Bryant, Chris Eastwood, Colum Mc Nally, John Thomson, Richard
Buck, Ms Karen Edwards, Jonathan McCabe, Steve Thornberry, rh Emily
Burgon, Richard Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Timms, rh Stephen
Butler, Dawn Elmore, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Turner, Karl
Byrne, Ian Eshalomi, Florence McDonald, Andy Twist, Liz
Byrne, rh Liam Esterson, Bill McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Vaz, rh Valerie
Cadbury, Ruth Farron, Tim McDonald, Stuart C. Webbe, Claudia
Callaghan, Amy Farry, Stephen McDonnell, rh John West, Catherine
Cameron, Dr Lisa Fellows, Marion McGinn, Conor Western, Matt
Campbell, rh Sir Alan Ferrier, Margaret McGovern, Alison Whitehead, Dr Alan
Carden, Dan Fletcher, Colleen McKinnell, Catherine Whitford, Dr Philippa
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Flynn, Stephen McLaughlin, Anne Whitley, Mick
Chamberlain, Wendy Foxcroft, Vicky McMorrin, Anna Whittome, Nadia
Chapman, Douglas Foy, Mary Kelly Miliband, rh Edward Williams, Hywel
Charalambous, Bambos Furniss, Gill Mishra, Navendu Wilson, Munira
Cherry, Joanna Gardiner, Barry Monaghan, Carol Wilson, rh Sammy
Clark, Feryal Gibson, Patricia Moran, Layla Winter, Beth
221 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 222
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Winterton, rh Dame Rosie Tellers for the Noes: Consideration of Lords Amendments
Wishart, Pete Jeff Smith and (9) Any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments
Yasin, Mohammad Thangam Debbonaire shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion
Zeichner, Daniel one hour after their commencement.
Subsequent stages
Question accordingly agreed to. (10) Any further Message from the Lords may be considered
Bill read a Second time. forthwith without any Question being put.
(11) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords
EUROPEAN UNION (WITHDRAWAL shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion
AGREEMENT) BILL (PROGRAMME) one hour after their commencement.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The House divided: Ayes 353, Noes 243.
Order No. 83A(7)), Division No. 2] [2.34 pm
That the following provisions shall apply to the European
Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill: AYES
Committal
Adams, Nigel Cates, Miriam
(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole
Afolami, Bim Caulfield, Maria
House.
Afriyie, Adam Chalk, Alex
Proceedings in Committee
Ahmad-Khan, Imran Chishti, Rehman
(2) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be Aiken, Nickie Chope, Sir Christopher
completed in two days. Aldous, Peter Churchill, Jo
(3) The proceedings shall be taken on each of those days as Allan, Lucy Clark, rh Greg
shown in the first column of the following Table and in the order Amess, Sir David Clarke, Mr Simon
so shown. Anderson, Lee Clarke, Theo
(4) The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) Anderson, Stuart Clarke-Smith, Brendan
be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second Ansell, Caroline Clarkson, Chris
column of the Table.
Argar, Edward Cleverly, rh James
Table Atherton, Sarah Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse
Proceedings Time for conclusion of Atkins, Victoria Colburn, Elliot
proceedings Bacon, Mr Gareth Collins, Damian
First day Bacon, Mr Richard Costa, Alberto
Badenoch, Mrs Kemi (Proxy Courts, Robert
Clauses 1 to 6; new Clauses Four hours after the vote cast by Leo Docherty) Coutinho, Claire
relating to Part 1 or 2; new commencement of Bailey, Shaun Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey
Schedules relating to Part 1 proceedings on the Bill on the Baillie, Siobhan Crabb, rh Stephen
or 2 first day Baker, Duncan Crosbie, Virginia
Clauses 7 to 14; Schedule 1; Eight hours after the Baker, Mr Steve Crouch, Tracey
Clause 15; Schedule 2; commencement of Baldwin, Harriett Daly, James
Clauses 16 and 17; new proceedings on the Bill on the Barclay, rh Stephen Davies, David T. C.
Clauses relating to Part 3; new first day Baron, Mr John Davies, Gareth
Schedules relating to Part 3 Baynes, Simon Davies, Dr James
Second day Bell, Aaron Davies, Mims
Clauses 18 to 23; Schedule 3; Two hours after the Benton, Scott Davis, rh Mr David
Clauses 24 to 37; new Clauses commencement of Beresford, Sir Paul Davison, Dehenna
relating to Part 4; new Schedules proceedings on the Bill on the Berry, rh Jake Dinenage, Caroline
relating to Part 4 second day Bhatti, Saqib Dines, Miss Sarah
Clauses 38 to 40; Schedule 4; Five hours after the Blackman, Bob Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Clause 41; Schedule 5; Clause 42; commencement of Bone, Mr Peter Docherty, Leo
new Clauses relating to Part 5; proceedings on the Bill on the Bottomley, Sir Peter Donelan, Michelle
new Schedules relating to Part 5 second day Bowie, Andrew Dorries, Ms Nadine
Remaining new Clauses, Eight hours after the Bradley, Ben Double, Steve
remaining new Schedules, commencement of Bradley, rh Karen Dowden, rh Oliver
remaining proceedings in proceedings on the Bill on the Brady, Sir Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie
Committee on the Bill second day Braverman, Suella Drax, Richard
Brereton, Jack Drummond, Mrs Flick
Proceedings on Consideration and up to and including Third Reading
Bridgen, Andrew Duddridge, James
(5) Any proceedings on Consideration, any proceedings in Brine, Steve Duguid, David
legislative grand committee and proceedings on Third Reading
Bristow, Paul Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
shall be taken in one day in accordance with the following
Britcliffe, Sara Dunne, rh Mr Philip
provisions of this Order.
Brokenshire, rh James Eastwood, Mark
(6) Any proceedings on Consideration and any proceedings in
Browne, Anthony Edwards, Ruth
legislative grand committee shall (so far as not previously concluded)
be brought to a conclusion two hours before the moment of Bruce, Fiona Ellis, rh Michael
interruption on that day. Buchan, Felicity Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias
(7) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously Buckland, rh Robert Elphicke, Mrs Natalie
concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Burghart, Alex Eustice, George
on that day. Burns, rh Conor Evans, Dr Luke
Programming committee Butler, Rob Evans, Mr Nigel
(8) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall Cairns, rh Alun Evennett, rh Sir David
not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, to Carter, Andy Everitt, Ben
any proceedings on Consideration or to other proceedings up to Cartlidge, James Fabricant, Michael
and including Third Reading. Cash, Sir William Farris, Laura
223 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 224
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Fell, Simon Johnston, David Nokes, rh Caroline Stevenson, Jane
Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Andrew Norman, rh Jesse Stevenson, John
Fletcher, Mark Jones, rh Mr David O’Brien, Neil Stewart, Bob
Fletcher, Nick Jones, Fay Offord, Dr Matthew Stride, rh Mel
Ford, Vicky Jones, Mr Marcus Opperman, Guy Stuart, Graham
Foster, Kevin Jupp, Simon Parish, Neil Sturdy, Julian
Fox, rh Dr Liam Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, rh Priti Sunak, rh Rishi
Francois, rh Mr Mark Kearns, Alicia Paterson, rh Mr Owen Sunderland, James
Frazer, Lucy Keegan, Gillian Pawsey, Mark Swayne, rh Sir Desmond
Freeman, George Knight, rh Sir Greg Penning, rh Sir Mike Syms, Sir Robert
Freer, Mike Knight, Julian Penrose, John Thomas, Derek
Fuller, Richard Kruger, Danny Percy, Andrew Throup, Maggie
Fysh, Mr Marcus Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Philp, Chris Timpson, Edward
Garnier, Mark Lamont, John Pincher, rh Christopher Tolhurst, Kelly
Ghani, Ms Nusrat Largan, Robert Poulter, Dr Dan Tomlinson, Justin
Gibb, rh Nick Latham, Mrs Pauline Pow, Rebecca Tomlinson, Michael
Gibson, Peter Leadsom, rh Andrea Prentis, Victoria Tracey, Craig
Gideon, Jo Leigh, rh Sir Edward Pritchard, Mark Trevelyan, Anne-Marie
Glen, John Levy, Ian Pursglove, Tom Trott, Laura
Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Quin, Jeremy Truss, rh Elizabeth
Gove, rh Michael Lewer, Andrew Quince, Will Tugendhat, Tom
Graham, Richard Lewis, rh Brandon Raab, rh Dominic Vara, Mr Shailesh
Grant, Mrs Helen Lewis, rh Dr Julian Randall, Tom Vickers, Martin
Gray, James Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Redwood, rh John Vickers, Matt
Grayling, rh Chris Loder, Chris Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Villiers, rh Theresa
Green, Chris Logan, Mark Richards, Nicola
Wakeford, Christian
Green, rh Damian Longhi, Marco Richardson, Angela
Walker, Sir Charles
Griffith, Andrew Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Roberts, Rob
Walker, Mr Robin
Griffiths, Kate by Lee Rowley) Robertson, Mr Laurence
Grundy, James Lopresti, Jack Rosindell, Andrew Wallace, rh Mr Ben
Gullis, Jonathan Lord, Mr Jonathan Rowley, Lee Wallis, Dr Jamie
Halfon, rh Robert Loughton, Tim Russell, Dean Warburton, David
Hall, Luke Mackinlay, Craig Sambrook, Gary Warman, Matt
Hammond, Stephen Mackrory, Cherilyn Saxby, Selaine Watling, Giles
Hancock, rh Matt Maclean, Rachel Scully, Paul Webb, Suzanne
Hands, rh Greg Mak, Alan Seely, Mr Bob Whately, Helen
Harper, rh Mr Mark Malthouse, Kit Selous, Andrew Wheeler, Mrs Heather
Harris, Rebecca Mangnall, Anthony Shapps, rh Grant Whittaker, Craig
Harrison, Trudy Mann, Scott Sharma, rh Alok Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Hart, Sally-Ann Marson, Julie Shelbrooke, rh Alec Wiggin, Bill
Hart, rh Simon May, rh Mrs Theresa Simmonds, David Wild, James
Hayes, rh Sir John Mayhew, Jerome Skidmore, rh Chris Williams, Craig
Heald, rh Sir Oliver Maynard, Paul Smith, Chloe Williamson, rh Gavin
Heappey, James McCartney, Jason Smith, Greg Wood, Mike
Heaton-Harris, Chris McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Wragg, Mr William
Henderson, Gordon McPartland, Stephen Smith, rh Julian
Wright, rh Jeremy
Henry, Darren McVey, rh Ms Esther Smith, Royston
Young, Jacob
Higginbotham, Antony Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda
Zahawi, Nadhim
Hinds, rh Damian Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben
Hoare, Simon Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark Tellers for the Ayes:
Holden, Mr Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Stafford, Alexander Iain Stewart and
Hollinrake, Kevin Millar, Robin Stephenson, Andrew Stuart Andrew
Hollobone, Mr Philip Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Holloway, Adam Milling, Amanda
NOES
Holmes, Paul Mills, Nigel
Howell, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Abbott, rh Ms Diane Blake, Olivia
Howell, Paul Mohindra, Gagan Ali, Rushanara Blomfield, Paul
Huddleston, Nigel Moore, Damien Ali, Tahir Bonnar, Steven
Hudson, Dr Neil Moore, Robbie Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Brabin, Tracy
Hughes, Eddie Mordaunt, rh Penny Amesbury, Mike Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Hunt, Jane Morris, Anne Marie Anderson, Fleur Brennan, Kevin
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Morris, David Antoniazzi, Tonia Brock, Deidre
Hunt, Tom Morris, James Ashworth, Jonathan Brown, Alan
Jack, rh Mr Alister Morrissey, Joy Bardell, Hannah Brown, Ms Lyn
Javid, rh Sajid Morton, Wendy Barker, Paula Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mullan, Dr Kieran Beckett, rh Margaret Bryant, Chris
Jenkin, Sir Bernard Mumby-Croft, Holly Begum, Apsana Buck, Ms Karen
Jenkinson, Mark Mundell, rh David Benn, rh Hilary Burgon, Richard
Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Murray, Mrs Sheryll Betts, Mr Clive Butler, Dawn
Jenrick, rh Robert Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Black, Mhairi Byrne, Ian
Johnson, rh Boris Neill, Robert Blackford, rh Ian Byrne, rh Liam
Johnson, Gareth Nici, Lia Blackman, Kirsty Cadbury, Ruth
225 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 European Union (Withdrawal 226
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Callaghan, Amy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Oswald, Kirsten Stephens, Chris
Cameron, Dr Lisa Hayes, Helen Owatemi, Taiwo Stevens, Jo
Campbell, rh Sir Alan Healey, rh John Owen, Sarah Stone, Jamie
Carden, Dan Hendrick, Sir Mark Paisley, Ian Streeting, Wes
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hill, Mike Pennycook, Matthew Sultana, Zarah
Chamberlain, Wendy Hillier, Meg Perkins, Mr Toby Tami, rh Mark
Chapman, Douglas Hobhouse, Wera Phillips, Jess Tarry, Sam
Charalambous, Bambos Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Phillipson, Bridget Thewliss, Alison
Cherry, Joanna Hopkins, Rachel Pollard, Luke Thomas, Gareth
Clark, Feryal Hosie, Stewart Qureshi, Yasmin Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Cooper, Daisy Huq, Dr Rupa Rayner, Angela Thompson, Owen
Cooper, Rosie Hussain, Imran Reed, Mr Steve Thomson, Richard
Cooper, rh Yvette Jardine, Christine Rees, Christina Thornberry, rh Emily
Corbyn, rh Jeremy Johnson, Diana Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Timms, rh Stephen
Cowan, Ronnie Johnson, Kim by Bambos Charalambous) Turner, Karl
Coyle, Neil Jones, Darren Reeves, Rachel Twist, Liz
Crawley, Angela Jones, Gerald Reynolds, Jonathan Vaz, rh Valerie
Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Jones, rh Mr Kevan Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Webbe, Claudia
cast by Peter Kyle) Jones, Ruth Rimmer, Ms Marie West, Catherine
Cruddas, Jon Jones, Sarah Robinson, Gavin Western, Matt
Cunningham, Alex Kane, Mike Rodda, Matt Whitehead, Dr Alan
Daby, Janet Kendall, Liz Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Whitford, Dr Philippa
Davey, rh Sir Edward Khan, Afzal Saville Roberts, rh Liz Whitley, Mick
David, Wayne Kyle, Peter Shah, Naz Whittome, Nadia
Davies, Geraint Lake, Ben Shannon, Jim Williams, Hywel
Davies-Jones, Alex Lammy, rh Mr David Sharma, Mr Virendra Wilson, Munira
Day, Martyn Law, Chris Siddiq, Tulip Wilson, rh Sammy
De Cordova, Marsha Lewis, Clive Slaughter, Andy Winter, Beth
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Linden, David Smith, Alyn Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lloyd, Tony Smith, Cat Wishart, Pete
Dodds, Anneliese Lockhart, Carla Smith, Nick Yasin, Mohammad
Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Long Bailey, Rebecca Smyth, Karin Zeichner, Daniel
Doogan, Dave Lucas, Caroline Sobel, Alex Tellers for the Noes:
Dorans, Allan Lynch, Holly Spellar, rh John Jeff Smith and
Doughty, Stephen MacAskill, Kenny Starmer, rh Keir Thangam Debbonaire
Dromey, Jack Madders, Justin
Duffield, Rosie Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana Question accordingly agreed to.
Eagle, Maria Malhotra, Seema
Eastwood, Colum Maskell, Rachael EUROPEAN UNION (WITHDRAWAL
Edwards, Jonathan Matheson, Christian AGREEMENT) BILL (MONEY)
Efford, Clive Mc Nally, John Queen’s recommendation signified.
Elmore, Chris McCabe, Steve Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing
Eshalomi, Florence McCarthy, Kerry Order No. 52(1)(a)),
Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain
Farron, Tim McDonald, Andy That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the European
Farry, Stephen
Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill, it is expedient to authorise:
McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
Fellows, Marion McDonald, Stuart C. (1) any sum that is required to be paid to the EU or an EU
Ferrier, Margaret McDonnell, rh John entity to meet any obligation that the United Kingdom has by
Fletcher, Colleen McGinn, Conor virtue of the withdrawal agreement to be charged on and paid
Flynn, Stephen McGovern, Alison out of the Consolidated Fund or, if the Treasury so decides, the
Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine National Loans Fund;
Foxcroft, Vicky McLaughlin, Anne (2) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—
Foy, Mary Kelly McMorrin, Anna (a) any expenditure which is incurred by a Minister of the
Furniss, Gill Mearns, Ian Crown, government department or other public
Gardiner, Barry Miliband, rh Edward authority by virtue of the Act; and
Gibson, Patricia Mishra, Navendu (b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable
Gill, Preet Kaur Monaghan, Carol by virtue of any other Act out of money so provided;
Girvan, Paul Moran, Layla
(3) any other charge on the Consolidated Fund or the
Glindon, Mary Morden, Jessica
National Loans Fund, or any other charge on the public revenue,
Grady, Patrick Morgan, Mr Stephen arising by virtue of the Act.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Grant, Peter Murray, Ian
Question agreed to.
Gray, Neil Murray, James
Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa
EUROPEAN UNION (WITHDRAWAL
Greenwood, Lilian Newlands, Gavin
AGREEMENT) BILL (WAYS AND MEANS)
Greenwood, Margaret Nichols, Charlotte
Griffith, Nia O’Hara, Brendan
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing
Haigh, Louise Olney, Sarah Order No. 52(1)(a)),
Hamilton, Fabian Onwurah, Chi That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the European
Hanna, Claire Oppong-Asare, Abena Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill, it is expedient to authorise:
Hanvey, Neale Osamor, Kate (1) any taxation, fees or charges or any other charge on the
Hardy, Emma Osborne, Kate people arising by virtue of the Act;
227 European Union (Withdrawal 20 DECEMBER 2019 228
Agreement) Bill
(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund or the Southend: City Status
National Loans Fund.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House
Question agreed to. do now adjourn.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): This is probably 2.51 pm
strictly out of order, but I suspect that hon. Members
will be leaving in a few moments. May I, on behalf of Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): For a moment,
Mr Speaker, wish all hon. Members, on both sides of I was tempted to say, “Before the House adjourns for
the House, a happy Christmas and a very peaceful new the Christmas recess, there are a number of points that I
year? wish to raise,” but we have a title for this Adjournment
debate. The House will not be surprised to hear that I
am going to describe how, as the Prime Minister said
just six weeks ago, Southend will become a city.
Before that, I want to mention three newly elected
colleagues. Little did I think that the daughter of my
first constituency chairman, when I was elected the
Member for Basildon in 1983, would be sitting here
now. I think that the parents of my hon. Friend the
Member for Derbyshire Dales (Miss Dines) are looking
down from heaven, so proud that she has been elected.
I have had another big surprise. You will remember,
Mr Deputy Speaker, that Ken Hargreaves, who was my
best friend here, was the Member for Hyndburn. Peter
Britcliffe used to run his office and stood twice for the
seat, and his 24-year-old daughter, my hon. Friend the
Member for Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe), has been elected.
I am sure that Ken Hargreaves is looking down from
heaven with great pride.
Then there is probably the most extraordinary election
result of all. Just three months ago, I was invited to
Durham University. The motion was, “That this House
has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government.” I
opposed the motion. We will not dwell on it, but for
various reasons two parliamentary colleagues pulled
out at the last minute, so a replacement had to be found,
and that replacement was my hon. Friend the Member
for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison), who has been
elected at the age of 26. This is an extraordinary occasion
for me. If I had more time, I would mention the 46 and
109 new colleagues, but I need to concentrate on the
Minister.
I am not messing around. We have got it from the
Prime Minister that Southend is going to become a
city—and it will become a city. My hon. Friend the
Member for Rochford and Southend East (James
Duddridge) is present and we are absolutely united as to
why Southend should become a city. It will not cost a
thing, but I say to my hon. Friend the Minister that the
enhanced status and ability to attract new investment
will mean a great deal to the people I represent. That is
why we want it.
How does a place acquire city status? Well, there
needs to be a contest. We had a contest in 2011, 2002
and 2000. It usually takes place around a royal event.
Now, the Duke of Edinburgh is going to be 100 in
18 months’ time and I am working on other royal events
to see how we can fine-tune the timing. It would be
great if it happened next year because it will be the
centenary of the mayoralty of Southend, which runs
between 2020 and 2021. Now that we have moved on
from the horrible atmosphere we had in this place, we
have to be positive. And what could be a more positive
way to start than by Southend being declared a city?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the
hon. Gentleman on his hard work to ensure that Southend
will achieve city status. Southend has many great things:
229 Southend: City Status 20 DECEMBER 2019 Southend: City Status 230

a strong city centre, churches, a representative council, you cannot see the screen. I am sick to death of being
good education provision and excellent amenities. Like redirected every other week from Fenchurch Street to
Lisburn in Northern Ireland, it will achieve city status Liverpool Street. We need something done about that.
and it is important that it achieves its goal. Well done to Although I say to Conservative Members that we
the hon. Gentleman for his hard work. I have supported should forget renationalising British Rail, I am one of
him the whole time I have been in this place, and look the few who was there when we privatised all these
forward to Southend getting city status. I might even get industries, and it was under the Blair Government that
an invite to Southend when it gets city status; I hope so. power was taken away from this place. We now need to
make these organisations accountable, because that is
Sir David Amess: I thank the hon. Gentleman, whom where the problem is. We, the elected politicians, earn a
I regard as my friend, for his support. third of the money that umpteen people in these unelected
Let me run through the list of reasons why Southend positions earn, and they need to be made much more
should become a city. First, there is the Music Man accountable.
Project, which was the inspiration of David Stanley. He I turn to the national health service. The chief executive
did not leave people with learning difficulties just to be of the NHS said at the start of the campaign, “Don’t
looked after. He has absolutely transformed their lives weaponise the NHS,” but what happened? It was
through the power of music. The House can imagine weaponised, with all this rubbish about selling it to
my pride when these people with learning difficulties America, and particularly in my area and that of my
first performed at the London Palladium and then at hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend
the Royal Albert Hall, where my right hon. Friend the East. I was at Southend Hospital this morning doing
Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt)—who my impersonation of Santa Claus, and I met one of our
was the Defence Secretary at the time—watched from wonderful consultants, Paul Guyler. The reorganisation
the gallery. And it gets better: we have just sent a mission of services between Basildon, Broomfield and Southend
to Broadway and will now be taking our show, performed cannot continue unless they are clinically led. They are
by people with learning difficulties, to Broadway. That clinically led, but we need people to put their heads
is one reason why Southend should be a city. above the parapet, and we need the ambulance service
Next, Leigh-on-Sea was voted the happiest place in to reassure us that when they are moving patients
the United Kingdom. Well, I was not so happy knocking around, there will not be delays that could result in
on doors in the cold and dark there recently, so I disaster.
suppose I am the one exception. We scored high for On the environment and water quality, I think that
community spirit, opportunities to develop skills, good the Thames estuary is getting cleaner all the time. I was
restaurants and shops. It is also the 150th anniversary standing on Bell Wharf recently, and a seal popped out
of Southend rugby club. How good is that—to keep a of the water and starting clapping me—I thought,
rugby club going for 150 years with volunteers? “There’s someone else who’s pleased with my re-election
The marina, which will probably be in the constituency as a Member of Parliament.”
of my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and I turn to parking. I think, Mr Deputy Speaker, we
Southend East, is going to be fabulous. That is another have reached a stage in our lives where we know what all
reason that Southend should be a city. We have the the problems are; it is the solutions we ask for. Perhaps
longest pier in the world. You cannot build piers today, all my new colleagues will come up with some new
but there we are. A number of politicians have felt that solutions. I represent a tiny urban area, and parking is a
they were walking on water. When they come to Southend, real issue. I am delighted to see in the Gracious Speech
they really do walk on water—on the longest pier. that the Government are going to put money in for
We are also reinventing and reinvigorating the trains potholes.
there. My hon. Friend the Minister should know that I am
During the election campaign, one or two issues were inviting ambassadors and anyone who is the head of a
raised, but they can all be built into the case for Southend foreign embassy in this country to visit Southend. We
getting city status. All colleagues think that Southend have already had them from them Taiwan and Qatar.
airport is fantastic and very convenient. We are building We are having them from India, the Maldives and all
a business park there, which will be excellent for over the world. They want to invest in Southend, and
regeneration. However, I have to say that it does cause that is another good reason why we should be a city.
nuisance and upset among people, especially when the There was very good news from the hospital that I
two Amazon flights take off at 2.30 am and 4.30 am. visited this morning. I am pleased to announce that the
There is also a difference in noise levels between easyJet hospital has decided to invest in a new surgical robot to
and Ryanair, and an issue with air quality. We cannot undertake prostate cancer surgery. We had a launch
keep having talks with the airport about section 106, so here with the new charity Prost8. This will change the
I want those matters changed. lives of so many gentlemen who are diagnosed with a
Donkey’s years ago, when I was the MP for Basildon, prostate issue. It was so good that our new Speaker
I had a public row on TV with the chairman of British decided to go public, just as the former Prime Minister
Rail. I was clapped when I came through the Division did, about being diagnosed with diabetes. Sometimes it
Lobby, and they said, “Good on you, David! He needed is forgotten that we are human beings, and we suffer all
to be told.” Our railway was called the “misery line”, so the happiness and tragedies of other people. He will be
we changed the owner. I wanted Richard Branson to a role model in that.
have it, but we ended up with c2c, and I am disappointed. I am also pleased to announce to the Minister that we
The card reading machines take ages, as I found this are going to offer patients across mid and south Essex
morning; it is stupid. The ticket machines are far too out-of-hours emergency interventional radiology treatment,
low down, and when the sun is glaring on to the glass, which is another good thing to happen. My hon. Friend
231 Southend: City Status 20 DECEMBER 2019 Southend: City Status 232

[Sir David Amess] My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West has
managed to do something amazing by being both first
the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) is no longer and last. This is one of the first Adjournment debates in
in her place, but the hospital in her constituency is going the current Parliament, and, as is traditional, he has
to have a new MRI scanner, which will help an awful lot also managed to get the last word in before the House
of people. rises for the recess. In July, as the hon. Member for
I want to mention a few of the local authority’s Strangford (Jim Shannon) will also recall, it was my
projects. A successful procurement process has led to a privilege to reply to the debate on matters to be raised
partnership between the Better Queensway scheme and before the summer Adjournment. In doing so, I remarked
Swan Housing, in the constituency of my hon. Friend that it appeared that the House could not rise for a
the Member for Rochford and Southend East. There is recess without my hon. Friend’s pressing the case for
the second phase of The Forum, a partnership with city status for Southend-on-Sea—and here we are again.
South Essex College, supported by £6 million of funding I attribute that not to any gift of prophecy on my part,
from the local enterprise partnership. I have already but to the assiduity with which my hon. Friend pushes
mentioned the pier. A wheeled sports facility opened in his case. It is no surprise that his perseverance is recognised
the summer, and the SUNRISE project is a great example by his constituents, and I am delighted to welcome him
of co-design and co-production in the creation of ideas back to the House after he secured an increased majority
for a new London Road entrance to the high street. and more than 59% of the votes cast. No wonder
Leigh-on-Sea is the happiest of places in which to live,
The bid is working very well indeed. I have mentioned
and no wonder even the seals appear to clap my hon.
the airport business park and the 21-hectare site which
Friend.
will include the development of HQ-style office buildings.
A planning application for the Seaway development has As a Minister in the Cabinet Office and on behalf of
been submitted, and work is ongoing with Homes England the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon.
and other partners to support the delivery of a significant Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith)—the
pipeline of new housing across the borough. Digital Minister for the Constitution—I am delighted to be
infrastructure investment through CityFibre will ensure able to share with my hon. Friend and the House the
that Southend becomes a gigabyte city, and that all its process by which Southend, and indeed other candidates
households will have access to full fibre by 2022. around the United Kingdom, may seek to achieve city
status. As ever, my hon. Friend has also used this
I could go on and on, but I am anxious to ensure that opportunity to speak about the many achievements,
my hon. Friend the Minister has a little time in which to and also the aspirations, of Southend. He will forgive
respond. me if I do not respond in detail to each of the points
that lie more appropriately under the remit of other
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Departments, but he has set out a clear set of priorities
(LD): Inverness, which is not in my constituency but which I know will be flagged in the Departments concerned.
which is in the highlands, became a city some years ago,
and it has been a great success. Part of that success has Among the many advantages of a decisive Government
been the establishment of the Inverness tartan. May I majority—as a former member of the Whips Office, I
point out that Cornwall has its own tartan, and Suffolk shall repeat that! Among the many advantages of a
has its special gingham plaid? I strongly suggest to the decisive Government majority, and a clear sense of
hon. Member, in the spirit of Christmas good wishes—and stability and purpose, is the opportunity for constituency
I salute his excellent speech—that he think about a MPs to pursue single-mindedly their action plans for
Southend tartan. their communities. I know my ministerial colleagues
and I can look forward to hearing a lot more from my
Sir David Amess: What a brilliant idea. I was not hon. Friend over what I hope will be a long and productive
expecting that Christmas present. I thank the hon. Member Parliament.
very much indeed for his suggestion. As my hon. Friend is aware, city status is one of the
civic honours granted by the Queen under the royal
I know that the House has become tired of hearing prerogative on the advice of Ministers. It is a rare
me ask for city status for Southend—[Interruption.]—a distinction. Only 14 new cities were created during the
little weary—but I am not going to shut up until it 20th century. Indeed, since the 1970s there have been
happens, so someone must stand up at that Dispatch only five competitions, as a result of which a total of
Box and tell me when the competition will begin. I shall 13 towns were awarded city status, with each competition
raise the matter at the next Prime Minister’s Question seeing an increase in applications. With the exception of
Time. We have achieved a wonderful majority. We may the competition held in 2000 to mark the millennium,
have forgotten how to govern, but we are the Government all were held to mark significant anniversaries of Her
now. We have five years in which to make the most of Majesty’s accession to the throne. I am sure my hon.
the trust that we have been given by the British people, Friend will understand the need to preserve the special
so let us start with Southend being made a city. status of such an honour by ensuring that competitions
are held to mark anniversaries of sufficient significance.
3.6 pm
As my hon. Friend is very aware from his interaction
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Jeremy with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, his
Quin): Let me start by congratulating my hon. Friend determination on this issue is very much recognised. We
the Member for Southend West (Sir David Amess) on will continue to consider when it might be appropriate
securing the debate. It is a pleasure to see that his to hold another city status competition. I know my hon.
neighbour and colleague my hon. Friend the Member Friend is alert to possible opportunities and is certainly
for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) is not shy in drawing them to the attention of Government,
also present. for which we are grateful.
233 Southend: City Status 20 DECEMBER 2019 Southend: City Status 234

Today there are currently 69 cities in the United Southend, which, as my hon. Friend mentioned, boasts
Kingdom: 51 in England, seven in Scotland, six in the longest pleasure pier in the world, received some
Wales and five in Northern Ireland. Competitions are 367,000 visitors last year. Southend has also received
fair and open to protect the value of city status. There £1.3 million from the coastal communities fund to
are no specific criteria against which progress can be expand tourism services. I understand that Southend
measured, but entries are considered on the merits of has also benefited from funding from its local enterprise
their contents rather than on the standard of presentation. partnership, including £23 million for a new business
I appreciate why, with a population of 175,000, some park, to which my hon. Friend referred, adjacent to London
5,600 businesses and an economy valued at over £2.6 billion, Southend Airport. There will be many opportunities for
Southend views itself as a suitable candidate, even Southend to seize as we achieve our exit from the
before one takes into account its role as a transport hub, European Union, opportunities stemming from our
to which my hon. Friend referred, and as a tourist focus on the Thames Estuary 2050 growth board, to
destination, amid many sources of justifiable civic pride. which the new chair, Kate Willard, was appointed on
It is wonderful to hear again about Music Man and 30 October.
what a phenomenal success it is. My hon. Friend raised concerns about the rail franchise
I know that Southend-on-Sea entered the 2012 city and ticket machines. I know that he has raised those
status contest but was, along with a number of other concerns along with the frustration of his constituents
towns, unfortunately unsuccessful. Granting city status on a number of occasions. He will be aware of this
is purely about the honour, with no additional funding Government’s commitment to end the complicated
or powers attached to it, but I entirely understand my franchising model and to create a simpler, more effective
hon. Friend’s continuing endeavours to secure city status rail system. I am sure that we can look forward to progress
for Southend. We will never tire of his speaking about it on that area.
in this Chamber—he is very wrong to suggest that that I suggest that my hon. Friend take up with other
might be the case. I know he will continue to pursue the Ministers the specifics of the section 106 agreement to
cause with great assiduity. However, I do want to take which he referred. As an MP with a constituency in
this opportunity to reassure him that, whatever its civic close proximity to Gatwick, I recognise some of the
status, the Government are committed to investing in concerns that he has raised. I trust that he is aware of
and supporting Southend, and the local area, on issues the Independent Commission on Civil Aviation Noise,
that matter to his constituents. which is a relatively new body, providing independent
A colleague at the Department of Health and Social advice to the Government, including on how to improve
Care informed me that significant investment is already public confidence and trust in the management of aviation
under way at Southend Hospital. Clearly, my hon. noise. If my hon. Friend has not done so already—he
Friend was briefed on that in his role as Father Christmas may well have done this—I recommend a discussion
only this morning. That includes the installation of new with ICCAN, which he might find of interest.
radiotherapy machines and—he referred to this—in In conclusion, I thank my hon. Friend for raising this
particular the use of a surgical robot to undertake important issue. He is indeed a doughty champion for
prostate cancer surgery. That is an important issue, his constituents and his constituency. These last few
which I recall my hon. Friend raising in the summer minutes as one closes a parliamentary period would not
recess debate. Those improvements will greatly expand be the same without his contribution on the issue.
the availability of robotic surgery to patients suffering Finally, may I thank you, Sir Roger, for your comments
from cancer and will both reduce waiting times and give on behalf of the Speaker, wishing us all a happy Christmas?
patients the option of receiving care in mid and south May I extend that wish on behalf of the House and the
Essex who may otherwise have to travel outside the area Government to you and to all the Clerks and the staff
for treatment. This will secure Southend Hospital’s of this place who work hard throughout the year, but
position as a centre of excellence in cancer care and particularly over the past few days supporting new and
treatment for the people of Essex. returning Members, and I would like to wish everyone a
We are also investing in the local economy. In 2014, happy Christmas.
we signed off on the Southend city deal and put in Question put and agreed to.
funding of about £1.5 million towards a growth hub to
offer support to local businesses. I trust that the ripple 3.16 pm
effect of that continues to benefit the local economy. House adjourned.
235 7 JANUARY 2020 236

House of Commons The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sajid Javid): First,

Mr Speaker, may I associate myself with the message
you have just sent to our Australian friends? I also take
Tuesday 7 January 2020 this opportunity to wish you and all hon. Members a
happy new year.
The House met at half-past Two o’clock At last year’s spending round, I announced a £7.1 billion
increase in schools funding for 2022-23 compared with
PRAYERS this year. That will level up funding across the country
and ensure at least £5,000 a year for every secondary
school pupil next year and £4,000 a year for every
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] primary school pupil in 2021-22.
Speaker’s Statement Mark Logan: During the election campaign, my right
hon. Friend the Chancellor visited Bolton Lads and
Mr Speaker: On behalf of the whole House, I wish to Girls Club, which is a real hub for inspiring our children.
express my deepest sympathies with the people of Australia Does the Chancellor agree that the uplift in funding for
as they continue to experience horrific wildfires, which schoolchildren right across Bolton North East will ensure
are laying waste so much, and to send a message of that our young people fulfil their true potential?
solidarity to our Commonwealth colleagues in the
Australian Parliament. We pay tribute to the firefighters
Sajid Javid: I remember that visit, and I was incredibly
and to all those who are putting their lives at risk.
impressed by the club.
The magnitude of the disaster unfolding in Australia
should shock us all, with human and animal lives and May I say how delighted I am to see my hon. Friend
precious species of fauna being destroyed. This is a take his place in this House? I agree with him
wake-up call for the world. All Australians are in our wholeheartedly. Our plans will ensure that funding for
thoughts and prayers. I rang the Speaker of the Australian every pupil in every school can rise at least in line with
House of Representatives five days ago to express our inflation. Schools in Bolton North East will attract
worries and concerns. There will be an oral statement £4,800 per pupil in 2020-21 on average and, based on
on Thursday, so Members who wish to speak on the the current number of pupils, that means a 7.7% total
matter will be able to do so then. cash increase.
I draw Members’ attention to the fact that the book Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Having grown
for entering the private Member’s Bill ballot is now up in Bristol, the Chancellor will be familiar with the
open. It will be open until the House rises today and education system there, but we have a crisis in funding
while the House is sitting tomorrow. New Members for special educational needs provision. More children
should not forget that this is their great chance to make are coming forward with special educational needs, but
history—although the Whips may not wish them to do we do not have the funding to support them. I urge him
so. The book will be available for Members to sign in to pay some attention to that and to donate the necessary
the No Lobby until 6 pm on both days, at which point it funds to remedy the problem.
will be taken to the Public Bill Office and remain open
for signatures until the rise of the House. The ballot
Sajid Javid: I agree with the hon. Lady about the
itself will be drawn at 9 am this Thursday in the Wilson
importance of making sure that special educational
Room, Portcullis House. An announcement setting out
needs are properly funded. That is precisely why in the
these and other arrangements, including the dates on
last spending round I increased spending by £780 million,
which ten-minute rule motions can be made and
which I believe is the biggest increase in a decade.
presentation Bills introduced, is published on the Order
Paper.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): My right hon.
I remind the House that the election of Deputy Friend, coming from the west midlands, will know that
Speakers will take place tomorrow between 10 am and Staffordshire has historically been one of the most
1.30 pm in Committee Room 8. Nominations must be underpaid counties per pupil. How will his changes affect
submitted to the Table Office by 6 pm today. Further counties such as Staffordshire and others in the f40?
details are in the announcements section of today’s
Order Paper. Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue.
He has been a champion of fairer funding for schools,
especially in the west midlands, and I agree with him
Oral Answers to Questions about the importance of this issue. That is precisely
why, in the spending round, we made an exception for
schools by having a three-year settlement, which means
TREASURY there will be a £7.1 billion increase for schools throughout
England by 2022-23, helping to bring fairer funding.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked—
Carbon Emissions
Per Pupil Funding
2. Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab):
1. Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con): Whether What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues
he plans to increase the level of per pupil funding. on the adequacy of funding allocated to programmes to
[900035] reduce carbon emissions. [900036]
237 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 238

19. Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): manifesto proposes to extend Help to Buy to people
What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues who wish to build their own homes, which the Chancellor
on the adequacy of funding allocated to programmes to of the Exchequer knows all about, will he meet me and
reduce carbon emissions. [900056] the Right to Build taskforce to see how it can implement
this excellent policy as quickly as possible?
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Simon
Clarke): The Government take our environmental Mr Clarke: I thank my hon. Friend, who is very
responsibilities very seriously, and the Prime Minister persistent in this area. I would be delighted to meet him
established the new Cabinet Committee on Climate to discuss following up on this issue.
Change for that very reason. The UK is, of course, the
G20 leader in reducing our greenhouse gas emissions Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): The
while growing our economy. Later this year, the Government Minister is right about the growing role that renewables
will set out further plans to reduce emissions in key are playing in our energy mix, as 2018 was the greenest
sectors such as transport, energy and building while year on record for our energy system. Does he agree that
seizing the economic benefits of clean growth. We have the UK’s track record on cutting emissions, while
launched a review into the transition to a net zero maintaining jobs growth and economic growth, is
economy and how that will be funded, and the review remarkable at a global level and should be applauded?
will publish its findings this autumn.
Mr Clarke: I thank my right hon. Friend for that
Dr Huq: I am pleased to see two ideas in the Queen’s question. It is worth noting that between 1990 and 2016
Speech that were recycled from previous Labour manifestos: the UK reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 42% while
the waiving of NHS car parking charges, and renters’ growing its economy by more than two thirds. We
rights. Will the Government go that bit further and should be proud of that record; it shows that we are on
adopt a third idea, our completely costed green new track to meet our targets.
deal? Greenpeace rated the Labour party as best for the
environment, whereas the Conservative party languished
in fourth. This idea would help the Government to Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab): First, let me
reach their carbon emission targets, which are woefully associate myself with the comments welcoming you to
off track at the moment. your place and your Chair, Mr Speaker—long may you
sit there.
Mr Clarke: The electorate obviously gave their verdict For what have been described as a “post-truth”
on the relative credibility of our manifesto. This Chamber, Government, here are two clear and simple facts: first,
on a cross-party basis, should welcome the real consensus COP 26 is coming to the UK and, secondly, the eyes of
that the UK has done the right thing by becoming the the world will be on this Government’s climate crisis
first major western economy to commit to a net zero policies—or, rather, the appalling lack of them. As
policy. We have allocated £1 billion for the take-up of Australia burns, millions in African states face climate-driven
ultra low emission vehicles, £350 million for the industrial famine and floods have swept the north of England,
energy transition fund and £800 million in our manifesto will this Government give a damn about this existential
for carbon capture and storage. threat and act, not posture?
The hon. Lady says our ambitions in this area are
inadequate, but the Committee on Climate Change Mr Clarke: It must be said that that was a rather
report of May 2019 did not consider it credible to reach ungracious recognition of the Government’s work in
net zero emissions earlier than 2050. The report called it this area. We are clear that COP 26 is the centrepiece of
the “highest possible ambition” supported by the science the Government’s work on climate this year; the Prime
for us to target 2050 rather than an earlier date. Minister gave a presentation to Cabinet on it today.
There is no question but that, led by our former Friend
Helen Hayes: The UK Government currently offer on these Benches Claire Perry, we have an excellent
more financial support than any other European state head of the COP, and we will have maximum ambition.
for fossil fuel industries. The oil giant Shell paid no The UK is clear that we are committed to the Paris
corporate income tax last year due to tax rebates, despite agreement and delivering on it in full, and by committing
making a £557 million profit in the UK. This situation to net zero we have led the world in this area.
is unsustainable and unacceptable in the context of a
climate emergency. Can the Minister explain how a Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con):
Government who continue to subsidise fossil fuel extraction Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important that this
to such a degree can ever be trusted to deliver net zero? Government do everything they can to help energy-intensive
industries to reduce their carbon footprint and do not
Mr Clarke: The most important thing to recognise is merely regulate and tax, as some would do, because that
that last year was the first year on record in which risks exporting not only the carbon, but the jobs?
renewable energy constituted more of our energy mix
than fossil fuels. We also need to recognise that oil and Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say
gas support many thousands of jobs in the United that we must avoid shedding jobs as we change our
Kingdom, and we must be careful not to jeopardise energy mix. As I mentioned in an earlier answer, we
economic growth during the transition. got £350 million allocated to the industrial energy
transformation fund. I am also a big supporter of new
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): The best technologies such as carbon capture and storage, which
way to reduce carbon emissions is not to produce can address the challenges of decarbonising energy-intensive
carbon when building houses. Given that the Conservative industries.
239 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 240

Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend speaks with experience
Happy new year, Mr Speaker. May I associate myself on this subject and is right about the importance of
and my colleagues with your remarks of support for the access to finance. I know that he has broadly welcomed
people of Australia? In that regard, may I ask the the voluntary Business Banking Resolution Service but
Treasury Front-Bench team whether this March’s Budget is not happy with the way it is exactly working at the
will be a Budget for the climate emergency? If it is, will moment. I know that he has a meeting coming up with
Ministers look at the ideas of the outgoing Governor of the Economic Secretary on this important issue.
the Bank of England to decarbonise finance and green
the City and come forward with the rules and regulations Stephen Hammond: High-quality infrastructure is a
that will catalyse private investment to beat climate key factor in improving productivity, so will my right
change? hon. Friend consider establishing both a sovereign wealth
fund and an infrastructure bond, which would enable
Mr Clarke: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his part of the financing solution to allow that necessary
question. We are clear that this is a central priority for infrastructure to be implemented?
the Budget in March. Obviously, I am not going to
disclose details of that today, but the Government have
Sajid Javid: The Government’s fiscal policy will allow
a clean growth strategy. We are clear that green finance
for a step change in infrastructure investment, which is
lies at the heart of the UK’s offer to the world, and
what we need to level up and unleash the potential of
obviously that goes for both the private and public
the whole country. That is why I am open to looking at
sectors; we need to bring together the whole strength of
ideas for new financing instruments, but I would need
the country to make a truly radical offer.
to be satisfied that they represent good value for money,
that they can be sustained for the long term and that
Productivity they are consistent with our wider fiscal objectives. I
would be happy to discuss that with my hon. Friend.
3. Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What
fiscal steps he is taking to increase productivity throughout Andrew Selous: Only 15% of people who start their
the UK economy. [900037] working lives in entry-level jobs progress beyond such
jobs by the end of their working lives. To deal with that
7. Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): What fiscal situation, will the Chancellor look again at the national
steps he is taking to increase productivity throughout retraining scheme to see what we can do to help people
the UK economy. [900042] to progress further in work, to reduce poverty as well as
increase productivity?
12. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con):
What fiscal steps he is taking to increase productivity Sajid Javid: As usual, my hon. Friend raises an important
throughout the UK economy. [900048] issue. Some excellent work has been done on the issue,
including work to which my hon. Friend has contributed.
18. Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): In our manifesto, we set out our intention to have a new
What fiscal steps he is taking to increase productivity national skills fund, which will help to transform the
throughout the UK economy. [900055] lives of people who are trying to get on to the work
ladder, to get new qualifications or to return to work. I
know that my hon. Friend will welcome that.
22. Nicola Richards (West Bromwich East) (Con):
What fiscal steps he is taking to increase productivity
throughout the UK economy. [900059] Gareth Davies: Transport infrastructure is a critical
factor for improving productivity in my constituency.
Can the Chancellor assure me that the Government will
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sajid Javid): Increasing
make the necessary investments in key arterial roads
productivity is the best way to boost wages, improve
such as the A1 in Lincolnshire?
living standards and enhance prosperity. We have worked
hard to build a stronger, fairer economy, dealing with
the deficit, helping to get people into work, and cutting Sajid Javid: First, may I welcome my hon. Friend to
taxes for families and businesses. We will continue to his place? He raises the important issue of infrastructure
invest responsibly, including by investing billions more investment and its importance to productivity. I understand
in infrastructure, creating a new national skills fund and the incredible importance of the A1 in Lincolnshire,
boosting investment in research and development. We and a number of colleagues have raised it with me. We
will invest to unleash the potential of the whole country, will soon publish our second road investment strategy,
so that no place is left behind. which will set out our plans, but I can assure my hon.
Friend that in this Government’s infrastructure revolution
Kevin Hollinrake: Productivity is damaged if SMEs no part of our country will be left behind.
feel that there is no fair system for resolving disputes
with their bank, yet the eligibility rules for the new Nicola Richards: Having spoken to business leaders
Business Banking Resolution Service exclude 85% of in West Bromwich and throughout the west midlands, I
historical claims, including, incredibly, those that have know that tackling productivity and imbalances across
been through the recently discredited Lloyds bank customer the region is vital and key to levelling up our economy.
review. Will the Chancellor meet me to discuss how we Will the Chancellor commit to working alongside me to
make this fit for purpose and not simply a fig leaf to tackle the imbalances in West Bromwich East and the
cover past banking malpractice? wider west midlands?
241 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 242

Sajid Javid: Yes, I will. May I also welcome my hon. Alison Thewliss: It is a huge disappointment. The
Friend to her place? I remember my visit to her constituency Chancellor does not even have the dignity to apologise
last month; we met some excellent local businesses. She to Derek Mackay for making this announcement only
is right to talk about the need for further investment in in the media. Furthermore, the right hon. Gentleman
the midlands. As a west midlands MP, I understand that may not be aware, but 11 March is the date by which
as well, and I know exactly how much more potential councils in Scotland legally have to set local tax rates.
can be unleashed. I look forward to working with my The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has described
hon. Friend throughout this Parliament to do just that. this delay as extremely worrying. Its resources spokesperson,
the Conservative councillor Gail Macgregor, has said
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab): Is that it? The Prime that this will significantly impede local authorities and
Minister’s special adviser now wants a civil service—perhaps disadvantage Scotland’s communities. Will the Chancellor
modelled on the Cabinet—comprised of tell me whether he thinks it is fair that Scottish local
“Weirdos and misfits with odd skills”. government must set its budgets blindfold without any
As a member of that Cabinet, what weird explanation notion of what its block grant will be? Is not the truth
does the Chancellor have as to why, according to the that he has given absolutely no thought to Scotland at
Office for National Statistics, productivity is falling at all?
its fastest annual pace for five years?
Sajid Javid: In the election that we have just had, we
Sajid Javid: We have just had an unprecedented decade talked time and again about the need to unleash the
of growth: it is only the third time since 1700 that we potential of the entire United Kingdom, and of course
have had an uninterrupted decade of growth, and that that includes all of Scotland. Scotland has been let
is thanks to the work of this Government. When it comes down time and again by the SNP Government, who are
to weirdos and misfits, I know that there are many on charging Scottish people the highest taxes in the United
the Opposition Benches, but they need not apply. Kingdom and providing the worst public services.

Peter Dowd: That speaks volumes, does it not? The Mr Speaker: I call Rachel Reeves.
worst recovery since the industrial revolution—is that
what this Government can be proud of ? It is absolutely Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab) indicated dissent.
pathetic. More bluster from the Chancellor, but the
facts are absolutely clear: most people are worse off
under Tory economic mismanagement, working longer Mr Speaker: Let us take somebody else then.
hours on flatlining real pay. So, what targets has the
Chancellor set for improved productivity? Will he make Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab):
way for another weirdo or misfit when, inevitably, those May I say how warm your words were, Mr Speaker,
targets are not met? vis-à-vis the Australian Parliament and how well they
will be received?
Sajid Javid: We should never forget that the Labour With regard to productivity, what plans does the
Government gave us the deepest recession in almost Chancellor have in the upcoming Budget to tackle the
100 hundred years, and the British people were clever lack of investment in further education? Investment has
enough not to allow them to do it again. Now, they been cut by 50% since 2010, and productivity relies very
throw stones at the firefighters who put out the fire that much on colleges and high-quality education outside
they set in our economy. That is what they do. We will the university sector.
not take any lessons from the Labour party.
Sajid Javid: The hon. Lady is right to raise the
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): May I first
importance of FE and technical skills—I went to an
pay tribute to the economist Professor Andrew Hughes
FE college myself—and it is one reason why, in the
Hallett, who passed away on Hogmanay?
spending round back in September, I allocated an increase
The Bank of England has said that pessimism and of £400 million for the forthcoming year to FE budgets,
uncertainty around Brexit have had an impact on investment which is the biggest increase in a decade. In our recent
and productivity. That uncertainty has been compounded party manifesto, we set out plans for £2 billion of
in Scotland by the fact that our Government found out investment in the FE estate throughout England.
only today in the media that the UK Government will
finally be setting their budget, yet they have absolutely
Youth Services
no certainty over whether that budget will include the
£1.2 billion in Barnett consequentials promised by the
Prime Minister during the election campaign. When 4. Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab): What fiscal
does the Chancellor intend to meet the Scottish Finance steps he is taking to ensure the adequacy of funding for
Secretary to apologise? youth services. [900038]

Sajid Javid: I welcome the hon. Lady to her new The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen):
position as, I think, Treasury spokesperson for her In September, the Chancellor announced a new £500 million
party. youth investment fund to build and refurbish youth
When it comes to productivity, it is important that centres and deliver high-quality services to young people
the Scottish Government play their role. They should across the country. That will include £250 million of
examine their own policies, especially those on tax and capital investment, which is expected to deliver 60 new
infrastructure and skills, and see how they have let youth centres, 360 refurbished facilities and more than
down the Scottish people time and again. 100 mobile units for harder-to-reach areas.
243 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 244

Marsha De Cordova: Over the past decade, spending said that it should apply to loans taken out after a
on youth services has been cut by more than £1 billion. specific date. In his judgment, that represents a fair
In constituencies such as mine and across London, the balance between the concerns that the hon. Gentleman
number of youth clubs has almost halved. Will the raises and the loan charge, and the Government have
Chancellor finally own up to the devastating effect that accepted that.
austerity has had on young people in my constituency
and commit to funding a proper statutory youth service Julie Marson: The Morse report and the Government’s
in his upcoming Budget? response are very welcome, and will help many of my
constituents in Hertford and Stortford who have been
John Glen: What I can promise the hon. Lady is that deeply affected by the loan charge. Will the Minister
the Government are committed to funding local government agree to meet me so that I can share with him some of
with a settlement, which was announced before the my constituents’ experiences and residual concerns and
election, of an additional 4.4% in real-terms increase discuss the Government’s response in more detail?
that will give local authorities that additional spending
power alongside the youth investment fund announcement Jesse Norman: I hope I may join the Chancellor in
that I mentioned earlier. congratulating my hon. Friend on taking her place in
this Chamber. I have met many colleagues about this
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Will my hon. issue and would be delighted to meet her. She will
Friend take steps to ensure that young people in Wycombe understand that I cannot deal with individual cases, but
are not disadvantaged by excessively coarse aggregate I would be happy to meet her to discuss the issues of
measures of deprivation, which can obscure real need in principle.
constituencies such as mine?
Infrastructure Investment Distribution
John Glen: I recognise the challenge of getting to the
heart of the problems in different constituencies, and I
would be happy to meet my hon. Friend to better 6. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North)
understand his specific concerns so that we can get to (Lab): What steps he is taking to ensure an equitable
the heart of the problem in his constituency. distribution of infrastructure investment between London
and the north of England. [900041]
Loan Charge
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Rishi Sunak):
5. Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): What May I congratulate the hon. Lady on being recognised
recent representations he has received on the application in the new year’s honours list? It is a fitting tribute to
of the 2019 loan charge. [900039] her years of service, especially her campaigning work
on contaminated blood; she deserves praise for that
11. Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): work.
What recent progress has been made by Sir Amyas Morse Infrastructure is a top priority for the Government.
on the independent review of the 2019 loan charge. We will be publishing the national infrastructure
[900047] strategy alongside the Budget, and I can say now that
that strategy will contain our ambition to level up
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): across the United Kingdom, ensuring that every part of
Happy new year, Mr Speaker. Given that it is my first our country—not just London—has the opportunity to
time at the Dispatch Box since you became Speaker, let spread and drive growth in their communities.
me just say that I recall running an operation in 2014 to
prevent your predecessor from rigging the selection of
Dame Diana Johnson: I thank the Minister for his
the Clerk of the House of Commons; I think it speaks
kind words.
to the esteem in which you are held across this House
that one could imagine no such thing under your It is good that there is consensus across the House
speakership. about the need to invest, particularly in transport in the
The Government published Sir Amyas Morse’s north. I note that the Chancellor agreed with those
independent review of the loan charge on 20 December, comments in the story published in The Times on
alongside the Government’s response to his 27 December. I just wondered whether this House and
recommendations. my constituents will really have to wait until the beginning
of March to get the actual detail of what this will mean.
Christian Matheson: Clearly the loophole had to be Is it not right that this House hears first, rather than the
closed, but not in the retrospective fashion that has hit newspapers?
so many of my constituents. If these arrangements were
already illegal when my constituents were charged, why Rishi Sunak: I think the hon. Lady is referring to the
was it necessary to bring in the loan charge in 2017 at Government’s plans to review all our frameworks, processes
all? and mechanisms to allocate investment spending. That
work is under way, and the Chancellor and other Ministers
Jesse Norman: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware will update the House, as required, as more details
from reading the review, it is a very thorough and emerge.
comprehensive piece of work and Sir Amyas goes into
this question. He has accepted the case for a loan Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): A very
charge in principle—he recognises that it was important happy new year to you and everyone in the House,
to address the issue of abusive tax avoidance—but he Mr Speaker.
245 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 246

The regional investment gap of £63 billion in transport The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Rishi Sunak):
alone is compounded by deindustrialisation. Yesterday, May I warmly welcome my hon. Friend to his place, as
a senior Minister—anonymously—dismissed concerns a fellow Yorkshire MP? I am pleased to tell him that the
over customs and rules of origin barriers as Government are determined to keep our families and
“lobbying from industries that are in secular decline”, communities safe by backing the police with the resources
but they are felt by all advanced manufacturers. What that they need. That is why we have committed to finding
will the Chancellor do about his colleagues who seem to 20,000 new police officers by the end of 2023 to help to
blithely accept further regional job losses in manufacturing? keep our streets safe. To that end, we have additionally
announced £750 million of investment so that the first
6,000 can be in place by the end of next year.
Rishi Sunak: I was in the Tees valley earlier this week,
and what I heard there from manufacturers was incredible Nick Fletcher: Will my right hon. Friend work closely
support for this Government’s agenda of spreading with the Home Secretary to ensure that Don Valley gets
opportunity, driving investment in regional infrastructure its fair share of the 20,000 police officers so that my
and sensible taxation of manufacturing companies, all constituents not only feel safer but are safer on the
of which will lead to higher growth, more jobs and streets?
better investment for their community.
Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am
Vehicle Excise Duty: Motorhomes pleased to tell him that South Yorkshire will be allocated
151 of the initial wave of new police officers. That
comes on top of the 55 that are being recruited this
8. Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): If year, and, in addition, £1.6 million of funding has been
he will make it his policy to reduce the level of vehicle allocated to his local force for a violence reduction unit
excise duty for motorhomes. [900044]
that will further help. I hope that provides him and his
constituents with the reassurance they need. We are
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Simon committed to keeping them safe.
Clarke): The Government introduced a graduated system
of vehicle excise duty to encourage the uptake of vehicles Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): My
with lower carbon dioxide emissions and to help to constituents in Fleetwood have been left reeling over an
meet our legally binding climate change targets. I have unprecedented spate of armed robberies in shops in the
held productive talks with representatives of the industry town over the festive period. Does the Minister think
and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West that the cuts to police numbers and the fact that they
(Sir David Amess) to discuss this matter, and I am now have to be replaced was the wrong decision to
sensitive to their concerns. As with all taxes, we keep make a decade ago? Does he not see that not just the
VED under review, and any announcements are for cuts to police numbers but cuts to youth services that
future fiscal events. help to work with young people have been the wrong
decisions?
Sir Desmond Swayne: When we escape the clutches of
EU regulation 2018/1832, will the Minister restore the Rishi Sunak: The hon. Lady talks about things a
status quo ante as at September last year? decade ago. A decade ago, this country was borrowing
£150 billion—the largest deficit in peacetime history.
Mr Clarke: My right hon. Friend stands up with a That is why this Government had to take action to restore
positively lengthy question. As he knows, I share his our public finances to a place of sanity, and that is why
enthusiasm for escaping certain EU regulations when now, because of the careful management of the economy,
we leave the EU on 31 January. We are, however, convinced we are able to invest in 20,000 new police officers and
of the need to incentivise the reductions in our transport additionally give them the powers they need to keep us
emissions that I have referred to, which represent a third all safe.
of the UK’s total CO2 output. Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): We welcome the
50 new police officers for Dorset that we fought so hard
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the Minister to get, and 120 more are planned over the next two
think that this green tax, which has increased vehicle duty years. Can my right hon. Friend please confirm that we
by 1,000% for many motorhomes—which are used, on will definitely get these extra officers for Dorset?
average, for 31 days per year and do about 2,000 miles
per year—is fair, and will he review it? Rishi Sunak: I am pleased to give my hon. Friend that
reassurance. That is why the Chancellor committed in
Mr Clarke: The figure of 1,000% is somewhat misleading. the spending review to specific additional funding of
Only motorhomes with the very highest emissions would £750 million for the first year, for the first 6,000, and
fall into that category, and the extra VED applies only additional funding will follow to ensure that we deliver
in the first year. But of course we keep all taxes under on the commitment of 20,000 new officers across the
review. I am sensitive to the concerns of the industry; country.
clearly, a significant number of jobs are supported by it.
As always, we keep these things under a watching brief. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does
the Minister agree that we not only need more police
officers but a new partnership forged locally between
Street Crime youth services, the police and the educational sector? Is
it not time for some new cross-party thinking about
9. Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con): What fiscal how we tackle the crime and disorder on our streets at
steps he is taking to help reduce street crime. [900045] the moment?
247 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 248

Rishi Sunak: I fully agree with the hon. Member’s is a backlog in capital. Can my right hon. Friend assure
comments. That is why we are funding violence reduction me that, come the Budget, there will be capital funding
units, which start to build partnership working at a to ensure that our hospitals can be upgraded?
local level between social services, police and local
authorities. The Queen’s Speech contained a Bill that Sajid Javid: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance.
will further strengthen that duty on local authorities, He makes an important point. As he will know, the
police and other partners to work together to deliver Government will have a comprehensive spending review
the benefits that he rightly observed. later this year, and there will be a multi-year capital
Frontline Health Services settlement. Having the right amount of capital to ensure
that we do all that is required for our NHS will be a
priority.
10. Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con): What fiscal steps he is
taking to support frontline health services. [900046]
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Some
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sajid Javid): We are 50% of people living with cancer require radiotherapy
delivering on our five-year NHS settlement confirmed treatment, and yet only 5% of the cancer budget is spent
in January 2019, which is the largest cash injection in on radiotherapy. What that means in real terms is that
our public services since the second world war and will constituents of mine have to make two, three or four-hour
provide the NHS with an additional £33.9 billion more roundtrips to get life-saving daily treatment. Will the
per year by 2023-24 compared with 2018-19. The settlement Chancellor commit to spending money on radiotherapy
will shortly be enshrined in law. provision, to provide satellite units at places such as
Westmorland General Hospital?
Rob Roberts: Flint Community Hospital in my
constituency of Delyn was closed by the Betsi Cadwaladr Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman raises a very important
health board back in 2013, with the loss of a minor issue. We are absolutely committed to providing the
injuries unit and several important community beds resources necessary for the NHS to provide even better
where the elderly especially were able to recover from cancer treatment for all our constituents. That is one of
surgery close to their friends and family. Despite this the reasons for this record financial settlement. Capital
being devolved to the Welsh Government, what hope is also necessary, and further capital investment to have
can my right hon. Friend give to the people of Delyn better cancer treatment will also be a priority.
and Flint that funds will be available so that such vital
services in the community can be resurrected? Net Zero Emissions
Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend will know that the NHS
is this Government’s No. 1 spending priority. I just wish 13. Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster)
that it was the same for the Labour Government in (Con): What fiscal steps he is taking to ensure that the
Wales, who have let down Welsh people time and again, Government meet their target of net zero emissions
especially when it comes to healthcare. In the recent by 2050. [900050]
spending round in September, the Welsh Government
received an additional £600 million, much of which can The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Simon
be put to good use in the NHS system in Wales. I hope Clarke): It is a great pleasure to welcome my hon.
that they are wise enough to help the Welsh people and, Friend to her place. The clean growth strategy sets out
in particular, to look again at resurrecting Flint Community our proposals to decarbonise our economy during the
Hospital. 2020s. This will build on existing Government spending,
including £2.5 billion for low-carbon innovation between
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ 2015 and 2021, £1 billion for ultra low emission vehicles
Co-op): One of the major crises is the recruitment of and £4.5 billion for the renewable heat incentive.
GPs, so it is not just money that needs to be thrown at
the issues. What steps is the Treasury taking to ensure
that when money is provided, it is spent well and, Nickie Aiken: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. I
crucially, that it is not stop-start funding, so that the am sure he is aware of the immense appetite within
NHS can properly plan for the long term, particularly London’s financial and professional services community
in the recruitment of frontline staff ? to invest in green infrastructure and the rapid development
of the green and sustainable bonds market. Is he therefore
Sajid Javid: It is worth reminding Members that one willing to meet me and representatives of the Corporation
of the reasons the NHS has so many problems, including of London to discuss how Her Majesty’s Treasury can
with the recruitment of GPs and in hospitals, is the PFI further advise and support further investment in green
policies of the previous Labour Government, which infrastructure and private finance, and its backing of
have cash starved many NHS trusts for far too long. We that?
are now putting that right with our historic settlement.
The hon. Member is quite right about the importance Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The
of recruiting more GPs to have more appointments, UK is already a global centre for green finance, but we
and that is why we set out in our manifesto exactly how need to do more. That is why the Government published
we are going to do that. a green finance strategy last July and why we have
launched the Green Finance Institute, in close collaboration
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The extra with the City of London—precisely to drive these outcomes.
billions for the NHS are to be welcomed, but the real My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary will be happy
challenge in Goole, Scunthorpe and Grimsby hospitals to meet her at the earliest opportunity to progress this.
249 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 250

Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): As of England. During Mr Bailey’s tenure as chief executive
always, the Scottish Government are ahead of the UK of the Financial Conduct Authority, we saw the scandals
Government when it comes to climate change and taking of London Capital & Finance and the Woodford Equity
steps to tackle this. The Minister rightly acknowledged Fund, and the continuing saga of the Royal Bank of
that the UK Government have to do a lot more. Does Scotland’s Global Restructuring Group. In all those
he agree that they need to take away the subsidies to scandals, many people—many on low incomes—were
nuclear and actually reinvest in onshore wind in Scotland, hit extremely hard. May I ask the Chancellor: did he
and allow greater offshore deployment as well? consult any of the victims of these scandals before he
appointed Mr Bailey?
Mr Clarke: The whole United Kingdom needs to work
together to make sure that we deliver on our climate Sajid Javid: First, I welcome the shadow Chancellor
goals. We clearly need a diverse energy mix to help to to his seat. He fought a hard campaign and I commend
deliver on that, and nuclear has a clear role to play him for his efforts. As he noted, just before the Christmas
within that settlement. We are very clear that we obviously recess, I announced the new Governor of the Bank of
monitor all projects to make sure they deliver maximum England—I have just referred to that. Mr Bailey was an
value for money, but we do need some baseload power. outstanding candidate—the stand-out candidate to be
the next Governor of the Bank of England. That is one
Topical Questions of the most important public sector jobs that our
country has to offer, and it is hugely important that it
T1. [900060] Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): If he
goes to a rightly qualified person. Any reasonable person
will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
who looks at Mr Bailey’s track record of outstanding
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sajid Javid): The public service will see that he is eminently qualified.
year 2020 marks the end of a decade of economic John McDonnell: You will note, Mr Speaker, that I
recovery—10 years of uninterrupted growth, which is asked whether the Chancellor had consulted any of the
only the third time this has been achieved since 1700. At victims of these scandals, and no response was received.
the election, I warned of a double whammy of uncertainty Clearly, he did not. I referred to the Woodford Group,
that risked the economy: continued Brexit delay and an and in the filings lodged today at Companies House, it
agenda from the Labour party that would bankrupt our is reported that £13.8 million of dividends were received
economy. We have removed those uncertainties and the by Mr Ian Woodford, and his chief executive, in the
markets have welcomed that. Now, since the election, I 12 months leading up to the crisis that engulfed Woodford
have appointed an excellent new Governor of the Bank Investment Management and affected so many investors
of England, I have confirmed the national living wage deleteriously. That adds to concerns already expressed
will rise by 6.2% in April and I can confirm that I will by others that Mr Bailey was asleep at the wheel during
bring the Budget to this House on 11 March. This his period of office at the FCA. Labour has already
Government will lay the foundations for a decade of called for a short, sharp inquiry into the recent scandals
economic renewal for every corner of our great country. and into the regulation of the financial services sector.
Anthony Mangnall: I welcome my right hon. Friend May I suggest to the Chancellor that it would be appropriate
the Chancellor’s having further reduced business rates to postpone Mr Bailey’s installation in office until an
for small and medium-sized enterprises in rural areas. independent inquiry into those failures of financial
However, for businesses that do not fall within the rate regulation had taken place?
relief levels, such as South Brent village shop in my Sajid Javid: I believe the right hon. Gentleman means
constituency, will he work with me to see those rates Mr Neil Woodford, not Mr Ian Woodford. The ongoing
reduced and review all business rates? inquiry is, rightly, being led independently. It is not a
Sajid Javid: I welcome my hon. Friend to his place. matter for Ministers, and neither should it be. We are, of
He is absolutely right about the importance of business course, interested to ensure that an inquiry takes place
rates, which are a real burden, particularly on smaller and that we learn all necessary lessons. I believe the
community and village shops. That is why we have Economic Secretary to the Treasury again has a meeting
made our exemption for the smallest businesses—some with the FCA on this issue tomorrow, but we will let the
675,000 businesses—permanent, and we have a rural inquiry take its course independently. Once it is complete,
and retail discount scheme. He will also know that in we will ensure that all necessary lessons are learned.
our manifesto we committed to a fundamental review T2. [900061] Amanda Solloway (Derby North) (Con):
of our business rates schemes. I look forward to working The midlands engine for growth shows the Government’s
with him and hearing his ideas. commitment to the midlands, which is welcomed by me
and by Derbyshire colleagues. What plans does the
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab):
Chancellor have to push the engine forward and deliver
Mr Speaker, may I associate myself with your words
investments and jobs for Derby North?
about the tragedy taking place in Australia?
Let me say to the Chancellor that I welcomed his Sajid Javid: May I warmly welcome my hon. Friend
statement yesterday that we are to have a Budget at last, back to her rightful place? Last month, I visited with
as well as that the Green Book is to be rewritten—only her some excellent businesses in her constituency, and I
two years after Labour proposed it; and that there is a want to see more such businesses, not just in Derbyshire
new fiscal rule to accommodate new investment—only and the midlands, but throughout the country. There is
four years after Labour proposed it. But there was so much more we can do with the midlands engine, and
another statement, which he made reference to, which in this coming Parliament we are going to really fire it
was the statement before Christmas about appointing up and spread opportunities. I look forward to working
Mr Andrew Bailey to be the Governor of the Bank with my hon. Friend and colleagues in doing just that.
251 Oral Answers 7 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 252

T5. [900064] Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) specifically, as he knows, the Government have
(Lab): Let me wish you, Mr Speaker, and every Member commissioned the Oakervee review to evaluate the scheme.
a happy new year. The London Stock Exchange already It will report in due course and we will lay its findings
has more bonds from African countries listed for trading before the House.
than any other international stock exchange. What steps
will the Chancellor take to support his colleagues in the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Can I first congratulate
Department for International Development to generate you, Mr Speaker, on your first and second election as
private sector investment in financial markets across Speaker? You are looking very well on it.
Africa, so that services, businesses and start-ups can May I ask the Chancellor about the problem facing
grow and create 50,000 jobs? many people who are worried about whether they have
cancer? The best way to save the lives of people with
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): cancer is early detection and ensuring that tests come
The Government are always willing to work with the back very quickly. Unfortunately, nine out of 10 pathology
City and interested parties to consider how we can labs in England, Wales and Scotland are short of
advance investment across all those sectors, and I would pathologists, which means that people are waiting six
be happy to discuss such matters with the hon. Gentleman. and seven weeks. Is it not now time we had a major
financial incentive to persuade more people to become
T3. [900062] James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con): histopathologists and pathologists in the NHS?
When my right hon. Friend the Chancellor joined me
in King’s Lynn during the election campaign, he heard Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right
from Merxin, an innovative medical company, about to raise this issue, which is such an important issue for
how our infrastructure revolution could benefit west all our constituents. It is important that we ensure that
Norfolk. Will he work with me, ahead of the Budget, to at all times the NHS has enough funding to meet all
ensure that dualling the A47, and half-hourly rail demand, but especially for something as acute and as
services, are part of that investment programme? important as treating cancer. He is right about the need
for more skills. Much more is work being done by the
Sajid Javid: I will work with my hon. Friend, and I Secretary of State and we are looking to see what more
welcome him to his place. I was incredibly impressed by can be done. If more funding is required, we will
Merxin, the company we visited together. It was a provide it.
reminder of the difference the right infrastructure in
west Norfolk can make and how it can attract even T6. [900065] Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con):
more local business success. I will work with him. We South Ribble is blessed with many creative and hard-
will have an infrastructure revolution. It will benefit working smaller businesses whose products can and do
Norfolk and it will transform the local economy. grace the world. Will my hon. Friend confirm how small
business exports are growing our national economy and
T7. [900066] Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): Durham set out what the Government are doing to support them?
County Council has developed a housing regeneration
masterplan to tackle issues relating to absentee landlords, John Glen: I welcome my hon. Friend to her place. I
poor quality and low housing demand, but the scale of know she has great experience as an SME leader. The
the investment requires a commitment from central Government recognise that SMEs are the backbone of
Government. Will the Chancellor meet me and the economy. We have international trade adviser networks
representatives of Durham County Council to discuss giving peer-to-peer support to encourage more exports.
how the housing masterplan can be financed to deliver The Government’s export strategy, launched in August
much needed regeneration in Horden? 2018, lays the foundations of how to extend that. I hope
she will be able to make use of it during her time in the
Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman raises an important House.
issue. Work has been done on absentee landlords, but
there is always room for new ideas. I will make sure that Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab):The
the relevant Minister meets him. “back of a cigarette packet” policy to increase road duty
by more than 700% for motor homes and camper vans
T4. [900063] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Now that is reminiscent of the caravan tax of 2013, which I think
Lord Berkeley has laid bare the overspend and lack of was invented by the Chancellor’s predecessor George
return on investment of HS2, will the Chancellor pull Osborne. That would have decimated manufacturing
the plug on this white elephant project and ensure that industry in Hull. Will the Chancellor meet me, colleagues
the money is spent on infrastructure projects across the and those in the industry, who are very concerned about
north to benefit the regional economy, starting with this policy, so that they can explain directly to him how
northern powerhouse rail, with a station stop in Bradford, disastrous this policy will be for manufacturing industry
and the much needed and long-awaited Shipley eastern in Hull?
bypass?
Mr Clarke: I thank the hon. Member for his question.
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Simon I met the National Caravan Council in October to
Clarke): I thank my hon. Friend for his characteristically discuss precisely these issues. We are clear that we need
robust Yorkshire question. As a fellow northern MP, to incentivise the production of lower emission vehicles,
I am obviously very keen to get cracking with higher but none the less we are sensitive to the concerns of the
transport infrastructure investment in the north, which industry. I will happily meet him for further talks on
the Government are absolutely committed to do. On HS2 this issue.
253 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 254

Middle East: Security Meanwhile, the safety and security of British citizens
and our interests in the region are of paramount concern.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has strengthened
3.30 pm its travel advice to both Iran and Iraq and will keep it
under constant review. We urge British nationals in the
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace): region, or those intending to travel, to regularly check
Happy new year, Mr Speaker, and it is good to see you gov.uk for further updates.
in the Chair. With permission, I would like to make a We have taken other urgent measures to protect British
statement on the security situation in the middle east. nationals and interests. The Department for Transport
I have deep regard for the nation of Iran; I chaired is reviewing the threat state and advice to red ensign
the all-party group on Iran in this House for eight years shipping on a daily basis, and, supported by the Ministry
and have visited the country a number of times. Indeed, of Defence, we will issue guidance imminently. At that
the last time I visited I was with the Leader of the same time, the MOD is changing the readiness of our
Opposition—we went together to visit the Iranian forces in the region, with helicopters and ships on
Government and the people. It is a wonderful place standby to assist if the need arises. To ensure the safety
with a dynamic population, and the world owes a great and security of our personnel we have also relocated
deal to its culture and its history, but in recent times, non-essential personnel from Baghdad to Taji. Coalition
Iran has felt that its intentions are best served through forces in Iraq, including British forces, have suspended
the nefarious use of proxies and the use of subversion all training activities, and as part of prudent planning a
as a foreign policy tool. It has provided practical military small team has been sent to the region to provide
support to the murderous Assad regime in Syria, stoked additional situational awareness and contingency planning
conflict in Yemen, armed militia groups in Iraq and assistance.
repeatedly harassed international shipping, including On 5 January, Iraq’s Council of Representatives voted
UK shipping, in the strait of Hormuz. It has also to end permission for coalition activities in Iraq. As the
shown a total disregard for human rights, holding dual vote is only one part of the process, we are discussing its
nationals in prison and causing unimaginable suffering implications with our Iraqi interlocutors. Today, I simply
not just to those in jail, but to their families at home. remind the House that the coalition is in Iraq, at the
Such behaviour does nothing to enhance Iran’s reputation request of the Iraqi Government, to help protect Iraqis
with its neighbours and has had a seriously destabilising and others against the very real threat from Daesh. Our
impact in the region. commitment to Iraq’s stability and sovereignty is unwavering
One of the foremost architects of Iran’s malign activity and we urge the Iraqi Government to ensure the coalition
was the Quds Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard can continue its vital work countering this shared threat.
Corps. One of its commanders and leading enablers The main focus of the UK Government is to de-escalate
was General Qasem Soleimani, who, on 2 January, was this issue. None of us wants conflict. None of us wants
killed by a US drone strike. General Soleimani was no our citizens, our friends and our allies to be at risk. My
friend of the UK or our allies in the region. He was not right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, from the outset, has
an advocate of a more peaceful and prosperous middle spoken to President Trump, President Macron, Chancellor
east. His clandestine operations saw him supply weaponry Merkel and President Erdoğan and will continue to
to proxy forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. He encouraged engage with other world leaders. The Foreign Secretary
proxies to develop weapons such as improvised explosive and I have been talking to our counterparts. Only this
devices that killed and maimed UK soldiers and other morning, I met with His Royal Highness the Saudi
western forces, and we should not forget how he fomented Vice-Minister for Defence, and in tandem we are working
instability in places like Basra, where British forces were with the E3 to reboot the joint comprehensive plan of
stationed. action—the nuclear deal—which we believe is a vital
The United States Government have asserted that step to achieving a more stable Iran.
General Soleimani organised the strike on 27 December In the coming days, we will be doing all we can to
by the militia group Kata’ib Hezbollah, which targeted encourage Iran to take a different path. No one should
a US military base in Kirkuk, Iraq, and killed a US civilian be under any illusion: long before the death of General
contractor, and the US is confident that General Soleimani Soleimani, Iran had stepped up its destabilising activities
came to Baghdad to co-ordinate imminent attacks on in the region. Whether it was targeting dissidents in
American diplomats and military personnel. The UK will Europe or hijacking civilian ships, this aggressive behaviour
always defend the right of countries to defend themselves. was never going to go unchallenged. Her Majesty’s
The House will want to know that since October 2019, Government urge Iran to return to the normal behaviour
coalition bases, which contain both United States and of the country it aspires to be and to resist the urge to
United Kingdom personnel, and the Baghdad international retaliate.
zone have been attacked 14 times. One attack on K-1 base
involved 32 rockets. Our challenge now is to deal with
the situation we find ourselves in. The US consistently 3.37 pm
showed restraint though all those previous attacks, even Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I thank the
when its right to self-defence was well established. Secretary of State for the advance copy of his statement.
Since the early hours of Friday morning, the Government Can he tell us where the Prime Minister is, and what he
have responded to these events. Further conflict is in no is doing that is so much more important than addressing
one’s interest. The only beneficiaries would be the terrorists Parliament on the assassination of Iranian General
and extremists, seeking to use the chaos as cover to Qasem Soleimani, an extremely dangerous and aggressive
advance their abhorrent objectives, so we are urging all act that risks starting yet another deadly war in the
people—all parties—to de-escalate as soon as possible. middle east?
255 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 256

On Friday, I sent the Prime Minister a letter posing a who are currently in detention in Iran. This must be an
series of questions. He has not answered any of them. utterly terrifying time both for them individually and
Instead, today he is hiding behind his Defence Secretary. for their families.
Is it not the truth that he is scared to stand up to It is not in anyone’s interests for this to escalate to an
President Trump because he has hitched his wagon to all-out war. All sides should exercise maximum restraint
the prospect of a toxic Trump trade deal? At this highly and allow for meaningful dialogue, led by the UN
dangerous moment, we find the Government giving Secretary-General’s office. To prevent war, we need a
cover and even expressing sympathy for what is widely strong plan for diplomacy, so are the Government in
regarded as an illegal act, because they are so determined contact with the UN Secretary-General? And let us not
to keep in with President Trump. This assassination forget that there was a diplomatic plan: the Iran nuclear
puts British troops and civilians, as well as the people of deal. It was working, until President Trump came along
the region, in danger. and tried to rip it up.
As the Secretary of State will confirm, I have long Time and again over the last two decades, the political
spoken out against the Iranian Government’s human and military establishments have made the wrong call
rights record, including when he and I visited Iran on military interventions in the middle east. Many of us
together in 2014. This is not a question of Soleimani’s opposed the invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the failed
actions or record in the region. Whatever the record of invasion of Afghanistan, and I opposed the bombing of
any state official, the principle and the law is that we do Libya in 2011. Have we learnt nothing from those
not go around assassinating foreign leaders. Without events? This House must rule out plunging our country
the clear demonstration of an immediate threat, it is into yet another devastating war at the behest of another
illegal. So do the Government regard the assassination state.
as legal under international law? If so, how? Do the
lawyers in the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence Mr Wallace: I note that the Leader of the Opposition
regard it as legal? sent the Prime Minister a letter in which he posed three
If the Secretary of State really believes that this was questions, none of which he has just posed from the
an act of self-defence, what evidence has he or the Dispatch Box. I find that rather interesting. I am afraid
Prime Minister seen of an imminent attack on the US? that instead of a serious interrogation about we would
The Secretary of State says that the United States is de-escalate this situation in the middle east and how we
confident that attacks were imminent, but US officials would ensure that British citizens and British allies were
have been quoted in the press as saying that the evidence secure, we heard the usual tripe—“This is about Trump,
was “razor thin”. How would the Secretary of State this is about America”—and all the other anti-American,
describe it? anti-imperialist guff.
The Leader of the Opposition asked where the Prime
In the past few days, the US President has threatened Minister was. Well, funnily enough, the Prime Minister
to target Iranian cultural sites and to attack Iran in a is running the country, something that the right hon.
manner that is—I quote him directly—“disproportionate”. Gentleman will fail ever to do as a result of the general
Both actions would be war crimes, yet the Government election. This Prime Minister actually believes in Cabinet
still seem unable to condemn such threats. On Sunday, government, and in letting the members of the Cabinet
the Foreign Secretary said that the onus was entirely on who are responsible for the policy come to the House to
Iran to de-escalate. I wonder whether, if Iran had be able to answer questions about a matter relating to
assassinated an American general, the British Government that policy. Indeed, the Prime Minister felt that it was
would be telling Washington that the onus was entirely appropriate for me, as a Secretary of State for Defence
on the US to de-escalate. who currently has a significant number of assets in the
We talk about this as a conflict between the US and region—in Iraq—and who is charged with the duty of
Iran, but the worst consequences are likely to be felt by defending this country, to attend and to answer the
Iraq, a country on the brink of further terrible violence questions in his place.
and instability. President Trump has threatened Iraq Perhaps I can answer some of the few questions that
with were asked by the Leader of the Opposition. First, it is
“sanctions like they’ve never seen before” for the United States to answer in detail the question
whether it views the intelligence on the basis of which it
after its elected—yes, elected—Parliament voted to ask made its decision to be illegal or not. On the basis of the
US and other foreign forces to leave their country. He information and intelligence that I have seen, what I
has said he will not withdraw entirely unless the US is can say is that it is clear that there was a case for
compensated for the “extraordinarily expensive air base” self-defence to be made in respect of an individual who
that was actually built by Saddam Hussein in the 1980s. had come to Iraq to co-ordinate murder and attacks on
The Prime Minister—when he finally resurfaced from US citizens. That begs the question what the Leader of
his trip—said that he was committed to the sovereignty the Opposition would have done if that individual had
of Iraq, so will the Secretary of State confirm that this come to Iraq or anywhere else to plot the murder of
Government will respect Iraqi sovereignty if the Iraqi British soldiers and diplomats. Perhaps, as he recommended
Government ask all foreign forces, including British with al-Baghdadi of ISIS, he would seek to have him
forces, to leave? arrested at that time.
We know that the British Government were not consulted It is of course the case that this Government are
by the Trump Administration in advance, despite there engaged in a full diplomatic effort at all levels to de-escalate
being obvious British interests at stake. Let me also ask the tensions that have grown in the region, not only at
what the Government are doing to secure the release of the United Nations but in leader-to-leader, Defence
Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and other dual nationals Secretary and Foreign Secretary discussions and using
257 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 258

[Mr Wallace] On UK forces, the Secretary of State tells the House—this

is the killer paragraph—that all training has been
all other levers that we have. More broadly than just in “suspended” and “contingency planning” is going on,
the region, we are seeking efforts to ensure that Iran which can be taken to mean planning to leave Iraq, so
does not retaliate in any way that would escalate the can it be taken as read that there is now no active fight
situation and that our friends and allies do not escalate against ISIS in Iraq because of the actions of the
the situation either. The call that this Government are President of America?
making is to ensure that we pause, that we focus on the On de-escalation, will the Secretary of State mount
safety of the peoples of that region and that we seek a the most robust and unapologetic defence of international
way out for Iran and for its neighbours. The first way we law and order? Does he agree with the International
can do that, which this Government are determined to Committee of the Red Cross that the threat to target
try to do, is to ensure that the destabilising activity that cultural sites, as made by the US President, would be
has been going on in the region is ceased, so that we can unlawful? Will he work to ensure that the UN Security
all progress to find the solution that we desperately Council can finally step in and do its job? Will he
want to the conflict. In the meantime, the Government condemn the fact that the Foreign Minister of Iran has
will get on and ensure that they keep people safe in the been prevented, against international law, from taking
region, and we will do everything we can to protect part in UN proceedings? On the JCPOA, I welcome
them and their lives. what the Secretary of State has to say, but we really
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I thank need some detail as to how he will get the plan resurrected
my right hon. Friend for his statement. Thousands of with Iran and the United States.
Iraqi civilians, military personnel and cadets have lost We hear a lot at the Dispatch Box about the international
their lives in Daesh-linked violence, with many brutally rules-based order, but our closest ally is ripping it up
executed. In the light of these events and the recent before our eyes, whether we like it or not. I ask the
statement from the combined joint taskforce for Operation Secretary of State to be unapologetic in standing up for
Inherent Resolve, can he reassure the House that the it and to mount the most robust defence of it—America
fight against Daesh remains offensive, not defensive? is a close friend, and that is what a close friend should
Will he also update us on efforts to secure access to do. If the Secretary of State does that, he will have the
northern Syria for humanitarian actors and others, support of those on the SNP Benches.
given that access via Iraq is now impossible?
Mr Wallace: The hon. Gentleman asks some good
Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend makes the serious questions. First, we would of course condemn any attacks
point that Daesh has not gone away. Indeed, it is posing on heritage sites, and we recognise that they would be
a threat to us here in the United Kingdom and Europe against international law. My counterpart, Mark Esper,
and also within region. We are working incredibly hard the US Defence Secretary, has already clearly said that
with the Iraqi Government to try to see in what ways we the US will not target heritage sites. If anyone were to
can remain in theatre to deal with that, and I know that do that, no matter whether they were friend or foe, we
the Prime Minister spoke recently to the Iraqi Prime would of course call them out.
Minister, including on that subject. At the same time, in We observe and support the international rule of law,
Syria, we are focused on the force protection of aid of course, which is why we support UN article 51 on the
workers and everybody else in the region, ensuring that inherent right of a nation to defend itself. How a nation
people are safe and that people who are travelling there takes those sometimes very difficult decisions is, first, a
do so with the right advice. It would not be right for me matter for that nation and the intelligence and evidence
to comment any further on what we are doing operationally it has in front of it at the time. I cannot speak for what
in Iraq and elsewhere in the region, as to do so may expose the United States had in front of it at the time it made
our forces, but we are alive to the fact that among the that decision; that is a matter for the United States Law
groups of people most likely to exploit destabilisation Officers and, indeed, the President of the United States.
are terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda and Daesh. What I can say of the intelligence that I have seen is that
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): there is definitely a case to answer on the cause of
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his self-defence. That is not me speaking for the United
statement. We on these Benches of course hold no States; that is a matter for the United States. Every
candle for General Soleimani or, indeed, for the actions single leader has a very difficult challenge. They are the
of the Iranian Government, but I would simply say to ones responsible for the decisions they make at the time,
the Secretary of State that it is not anti-American to based on the information that is available to them.
question and press the Government on what they are I cannot expand further on the basis on which the
doing in relation to their closest ally. He says that the United States made that decision. However, I know that
US is confident that General Soleimani had co-ordinated the hon. Gentleman supports the inherent right in
the 27 December attacks and was planning further article 51 for a nation to defend itself. It is part of
attacks, but how confident is he that that is correct? international law, and the UK Government defend a
There is certainly no consensus on Capitol Hill among nation’s right to take that action if it is in accordance
congressional leaders that that is the case. The Secretary with article 51.
of State mentioned that he had seen intelligence that
had perhaps convinced him, but have the UK Government Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): It was
done their own legal analysis of whether the strike was disappointing that we were not informed about the
lawful? I ask him simply: does he believe that the strike attack in advance, but does the Defence Secretary agree that,
was lawful? And why has it taken four days for the while that may be partly because this US Administration
Government to convene the National Security Council, have the habit of doing a lot of things unilaterally, it is
given the gravity of the situation we now face? also because of growing scepticism in Washington about
259 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 260

European commitment to global security, given the vast The point that we want to make here is not just that he
disparity in defence spending between European countries may have posed a threat, but that he has already been a
and the United States? The right place to address this threat. As a result of his position, Iran’s policy has been
issue is the defence and security review that is happening to escalate all conflict across the middle east, so my
this year, which can show that a newly confident post-Brexit right hon. Friend is right to want to de-escalate the
Britain takes its defence obligations seriously. situation, but part of that is about ensuring that Soleimani
and co. no longer exist and can no longer escalate such
Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend is right that the terrible actions.
defence, security and foreign policy review is the place
for us to examine our place in the world and what Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend is correct to highlight
funding goes behind that. that this is not just about the incident of 2 January. The
When it comes to being informed, every single country, long and consistent destabilising of the region by the
including the United Kingdom and the United States, Quds Force has done Iran no favours at all. In fact, it
has a category of no foreign eyes—it is “NOFORN” in has had the opposite effect. Rather than making Iran
the United States and “UK eyes only” in the UK. None powerful and influential, it has made Iran a pariah in its
of us knows what it is like in other countries when they own neighbourhood and has led the Iranians down a
have short notice, potentially, in a case where life is at cul-de-sac to the potentially dangerous place we are
risk, or how much time they have to action that intelligence now in. We all need, therefore, to do everything we can
or threat and to inform their friends and neighbours. It to de-escalate, including ensuring that Iran ceases the
is a real challenge. In my experience of having intelligence destabilising activity that prevents the building of trust
in front of me as a soldier, we did not always have the by its neighbours. The neighbourhood may well help to
luxury of time to inform everybody, even within our find a solution, but it has to trust Iran.
own system. We should remember that the United
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab):
States did not inform Congress, let alone its friends and
The key question is about where all this is going. Iran
allies, at that particular moment. We do not know the
has announced since this happened that it will not abide
reason that was urgent enough for the United States
by limits on the use of centrifuges agreed under the JCPOA.
Administration to do that. It may well have been that a
What is the Government’s assessment of the JCPOA? Is
threat to life, dealing with which is paramount, was
it in intensive care, or is it dead? Is it the Government’s
more important at that particular moment to that particular
policy to resurrect the agreement? If it is, how do they
decision maker than telling us. They did, however, tell
intend to pursue that objective?
us very quickly after the event, and we have engaged
with them throughout the process. Mr Wallace: We believe that the JCPOA still has life
in it. With the right amount of effort and focus, both
Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): When I from the E3 and from Iran and in the work that we
met the Prime Minister when he was Foreign Secretary, communicate to the United States, it is a route that will
he told me and my constituent Richard Ratcliffe that he prove successful. The JCPOA contains a dispute resolution
would leave no stone unturned to ensure the release of mechanism. We have not yet gone to that, but it is one
my constituent Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. I was therefore of the things that we can use to seek to remedy the
alarmed to hear the present Foreign Secretary on “The situation if we are going to try to pull Iran back from a
Andrew Marr Show” agree with Andrew Marr that path that may eventually break the JCPOA. We do not
there was nothing that the Government could do to think it is dead. We think there is still a chance, and we
ensure the release of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. Will will make sure, despite what is going on now, that it is
the Government leave no stone unturned to ensure that the best solution in the long term.
Nazanin comes home, or will British prisoners be left to
rot in jail in Iran while the situation between the US and Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con): In the light of
Iran escalates further? Which is it? Soleimani’s alliances with Hezbollah and Hamas, and
now the explicit threat of revenge, does my right hon.
Mr Wallace: This Government will do everything we Friend agree that Israel is exposed and faces a real risk
can to get released from Iranian prisons not just the of attack from Iran? If he does, what steps are the UK
hon. Lady’s constituent, but the many other dual nationals Government taking to support Israel, a true friend of
currently languishing in those jails. It has been a long-term the UK and of democracy, in its right to self-defence?
foreign policy tool of the Iranian Government to incarcerate
people that they do not like to intimidate nations. Mr Wallace: Regretfully, I do not think the threat to
Hostage taking—some of these prisoners are hostages Israel has changed because, even before the general’s
to some extent—has been in the Iranian handbook for death, Iran had been using its proxies to directly and
many decades. We will do everything we can to try to indirectly target Israeli interests not just in the region
get her constituent released, and I mean everything. but around the world. Israel, in its public statements,
However, everything we do will be within international recognises the threat that General Soleimani posed but
law. That is our only parameter. We will try and try and also recognises the importance of finding a solution to
try, and the Minister for the Middle East and North the growing tension in the region that helps absolutely
Africa continues to do that on an almost daily basis. no one. The tension does not help Iran find a way out, it
does not help Israel’s security and it does not help Iraq’s
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford security, which is why we are determined to see what we
Green) (Con): The issue at stake here is that Soleimani can do to try to de-escalate through the diplomatic
and his deputy were already responsible for vast attacks route while also finding long-term solutions in the hope
on our allies and on British citizens, leading to loss of that the JCPOA continues to flourish or, if it does not,
life and to the recent oilfield explosions in Saudi Arabia. to ensure there is another path for Iran to follow.
261 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 262

Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): that our diplomacy is effective. Is the Government’s
Global security scholars have an incredible number of unquestioning support of Trump not likely to enhance
secondary questions about this act. Iraq has a close Iran’s influence and control in Iraq, a country where so
military and political relationship with Washington, as many of our armed forces have given their lives?
the Secretary of State knows, yet it was not consulted
on the assassination of a prominent target in its sovereign Mr Wallace: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s comments.
territory. Has he sought assurances from his American Our support for the US is not unquestioning at all; we
counterparts that they will not extend doing what they talk to our allies a lot. Indeed, I talked to my US
must to defend themselves to carrying out targeted counterpart about being told in advance and not being
assassinations on other allies’ sovereign territory, including told in advance; I have those discussions. We are friends
the United Kingdom? and allies, but we are critical friends and allies when it
matters. We are also focused on Iraq, which is on the
Mr Wallace: The hon. Gentleman mixes the inherent frontline of both Iranian meddling and Daesh attacks
right, under article 51 of the UN charter, to defend on a daily basis. That is why we have been invited into
ourselves from threats against our citizens or others, Iraq by the sovereign Government at the moment to try
and an unchallengeable sovereignty that means a country to help build their capacity to help them defend themselves.
cannot take action to defend itself from a threat in part That is the most important thing for us at this moment
of another country. We mostly do it by getting in touch in time; the Iraqi people are at great risk of both Iranian
with the other country to have someone arrested or militia antagonism and Daesh. We will be speaking to
dealt with, when there is a direct threat, but that is not them and we are continually trying to get them to say
always an option, depending on imminence. that it is in their best interest for us to remain, but we
will respect Iraqi sovereignty. If they require us to leave,
As I said in my statement, the number of times that that is their right and we will respect it. Interestingly, no
US and UK coalition forces have been attacked in Iraq one has yet asked in the media why an Iranian general
in the last few months, with no action being taken—indeed, felt it was his job to parade around Iraq, given that Iran
an American lost their life—has been growing. There is not invited into Iraq’s affairs.
have been 14 attacks, with 32 rockets fired in the last
one. In the end, it is the responsibility of any nation to Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I entirely
make the difficult choice to balance sovereignty, intelligence agree with my right hon. Friend; General Soleimani
and the duty to defend its citizens. Nations have to carried out Iran’s proxy wars, from the horrors in Yemen
make that choice sometimes. to the support for the bloody Assad regime. He was a
key ally of Hezbollah and its terror networks. He did all
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): My of these things as a central figure in the Iranian regime,
right hon. Friend makes a proper case for the British if not as its No. 2. I say to my right hon. Friend that we
Government’s position, but will he go further and talk need to accept that the JCPOA has, in effect, been dead
about what he is doing to make sure this does not since the American withdrawal and we need to look for
become a cliff edge to war but is instead the low point a more comprehensive agreement in the broader region
of a tick that leads to progress? We should work with if we are to maintain stability in that broader region, in
allies such as Kuwait, Qatar and Oman, perhaps, to the wider global interest.
reach out to Iran and assure it that we do not wish a
conflict and that what we wish instead is change to a Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend is right about the
policy that has led to the deaths not only of far too behaviour of the Quds Force—the revolutionary guard—
many Brits but of hundreds of thousands of Muslims over the years. Plenty of voices and decent people in
in Syria and Iraq. It is for them that we are standing up, Iran seek a way out for the Government and the people
and it is for them that we want a change. of Iran, whereby they move back to a normal position
of international respect. These people are trying and
have tried—certainly, when we visited they tried—to get
Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend is right to focus on how
away from the principlists, the hardliners, who have
we can broaden both the network of diplomatic pressure
been running the country into the ground and making it
on Iran and, in a sense, the support for Iraq, the United
a pariah state. Soleimani was one of the people who
States and other countries engaged in this area. If I
enabled those hardliners to create the pariah state they
remember rightly, Iran used to have remarkable links
are in now. The balance we need is to ensure that those
with Japan, for example. We are exploring all the possible
people seeking the right path are either empowered or
levers. With my colleagues in the Foreign Office and,
heard, and are not snuffed out by the revolutionary
indeed, at No. 10, including the Prime Minister, we are
guard. I fear that in the past 12 months the revolutionary
working as broadly and as fast as we can to find a way,
guard, under Soleimani and his gang, has had the upper
using diplomacy through people with good access to
hand, meaning that those moderate voices have been
the very heart of the Iranian Government, to reach a
snuffed out to the extent that the supreme leader and
place where we can persuade the Iranians that retaliation
others are not at the moment interested in finding an
is not in their best interest, while offering them a way out
alternative. Our job is to persuade them that there is an
so that we can get back to a more stable middle east.
alternative.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I Several hon. Members rose—
agree with much of the Minister’s critique of Iran and
of General Soleimani, and I of course support the US’s Mr Speaker: May we have short questions and speedy
right to self-defence, but to assert that right through answers? I am going to have to cut this off, as the House
international, extra-judicial, pre-emptive assassination will be sitting late into the morning and I have concerns.
surely warrants some criticism also, if only to ensure I do, however, want to get as many people as possible in.
263 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 264

Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Trump has taken means that he is turning away from his
(LD): Clearly, the issue of our British nationals living in policy of withdrawing from the region, increasing his
the area is extremely important, and the Secretary of policy of withdrawing from the region, or does not have
State has touched on it, but may I press him on it? Has the slightest idea which of the two he ought to do?
he had discussions with suitable civil airline or shipping
companies to get our citizens out if, perish the thought—I Mr Wallace: I cannot answer for the United States
pray to God it never happens—the situation worsens in long-term policy on the middle east, but I can say that
any way? this action was heavily weighted in self-defence—an
issue of the here and now and the threat that they faced.
Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend the shipping Minister is My right hon. Friend’s question feeds the point made
having a meeting with the shipping industry tomorrow, quite rightly by the former Foreign Secretary, my right hon.
predominantly about protecting the ships in the straits Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt),
and the vulnerabilities there. With both military and that we need to invest in our defence and security so
civilian planners, we are in the process of thinking about that we are never over-dependent on one ally or another.
a range of actions we could take for evacuation or It is the UK Government’s view that we need to have
getting people to a safe neighbouring country if the worst long-term support and investment in Iraq, which is
were to happen. We plan for the worst—we do not think important for the region. We do not want to be in a
it will ever get that way and we hope it will not—and we place where we are always dependent on others, such
put all our assets at disposal to do that. that should they change their policy, our policy has to
go with it, whether we want it or not.
Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): My
right hon. Friend is clearly absolutely right to focus, Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): There are clearly
laser-like, on defending British personnel and interests, differences between France and Germany on the one
but can he assure the House that Britain is working hand and the United States on the other. What action
closely with all our allies in Europe and the region, as are the Government taking to make sure that our
well as in the US, to finish the job of defeating ISIL and international allies and NATO once again speak and
to de-escalate tensions rather than see them spiral out act with one voice and one action?
of control, using all the available opportunities through
the much challenged but vital international rules-based Mr Wallace: I spoke to my German counterpart
system? yesterday—indeed, the German statement on Friday,
which came out before ours, was very similar to ours.
Mr Wallace: Yes. My right hon. Friend is absolutely
There is no difference between France and Germany.
right that the No. 1 threat to us in the United Kingdom
Germany has been clear about its view on self-defence
and to Europe is the actions by Daesh. We must continue
and the United States. Like us, it is determined to
the assault on them, not only in their bases, where they
maintain the fight against Daesh, is worried about
are, but on their ideas, on the internet and in some of
instability and wants to work hard on de-escalation.
our own communities. We will continue to do that. I
France, Germany and Britain are united in thinking
spoke with my French counterpart—France has often
that the JCPOA is the way forward. I think Chancellor
been at the forefront of ISIS attacks in Europe—and
Merkel is due to visit soon and we will certainly continue
she and I are determined that that assault does not fall
to engage to use that front with the United States to try
off the agenda and that we maintain not only our
to get them to support or re-engage in the JCPOA. At
investment in fighting ISIS but our determination to
the same time, it is absolutely clear—the Germans have
recognise that they have not gone away and that it will
forces in Iraq as well—that once this phase passes, we
be a long fight.
have to get together and really try to work for that
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): The Secretary of stability.
State rightly speaks of the need for de-escalation and
diplomacy. May I press him on a point that was raised a Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): Let me
moment ago? It has been reported that the US start by thanking our diplomatic service and the armed
Administration have denied a visa to the Iranian Foreign forces for working tirelessly over the past few days in
Minister to attend the United Nations, which I would our defence. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the
have thought was one of the places where we would like foremost priority of this Government is to de-escalate
that diplomacy to take place. Does the Secretary of the crisis, but, beyond that, to protect our armed forces
State think that that decision helps what he is calling for who have been described by senior commanders of the
or hinders it? Quds Force as worthwhile collateral damage in attacks
against the US?
Mr Wallace: We have heard the report, like the right
hon. Member, and we are currently trying to establish Mr Wallace: I welcome my hon. Friend to her position
the truth of it—it came out of Iranian media. Our in Parliament, and I look forward to working with her.
position would be that we urge that that person be It is absolutely true that, if we really want to protect our
granted a visa. The United Nations is obviously one of people, our friends and our allies, the first thing we
the key locations where we will try to use diplomatic must do is work hard to de-escalate the situation. We do
levers to resolve and de-escalate the situation. not want the conflict to spread, and we do not want it to
get worse. At the same time, we will use the assets of the
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): President Ministry of Defence and of wider government to protect
Trump has already thrown our Kurdish friends in the our people—whether they are in theatre or even here at
area under a metaphorical bus. Will the Secretary of home—from any threats that may be posed by anyone
State confirm whether the dramatic action that President who wants to take a reprisal.
265 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 266

Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): The Secretary Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend the Minister for
of State rightly mentioned the actions of the Assad the Middle East says that, yes, we will and that that is
regime in Syria. He will be aware of the situation in incredibly important to us. I echo that. It is important
Idlib. What meetings has he had with the Secretary of and we will put all our effort into that conference to try
State for International Development and the Home to get a good result.
Secretary to make sure that there are sufficient legal
routes for refugees from Syria to this country should Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Since the nuclear
they be required? agreement with Iran, Iran has stepped up its support for
terrorism, with both finance and military equipment for
Mr Wallace: I have not had any significant meetings, Hezbollah in Syria and Lebanon. What is my right hon.
but I support and facilitate any such access for people Friend doing to contain the Hezbollah threat not just to
who wish to come out of the area. That has been the Israel but to the wider region?
case when we have tried to evacuate people, including
children, from any part of the middle east—certainly Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend will know that this
from places such as Syria. I am very happy to take up House proscribed the full element of Hezbollah a few
this matter with the Home Secretary. The hon. Lady is months ago. It is key that we work with our allies to
absolutely right that Idlib should not be forgotten. strengthen Lebanon so that it has some resistance to
What is going on there right now is a horror show and Hezbollah within its state. That is important because
we should do all we can to help the people of Idlib, but, Hezbollah has a habit of assassinating people in Lebanon
very importantly, we must not forget that the regime who disagree with it. At the same time, it is important
that is doing these things is supported and aided by the that we work with our ally, Israel, ensuring that we
Iranian revolutionary guard. share any knowledge that either we have or Israel has to
protect it from terrorists.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I
welcome both the Defence Secretary’s statement and Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/
the tone he has adopted. For too long, Soleimani and Co-op): The Secretary of State is right to call for
the Quds Force have been allowed to operate a shadow de-escalation because the consequences of a wider conflict
war across the middle east, but it is clear from the with Iran would be severe, and the situation diverts
frequent demonstrations across Iran that the Iranian attention from the many other crises in the region,
people do not support their regime and its proxy including in Idlib and Yemen. I want to ask him about
interference. He focused on the media, on managing the the prisons in northern Syria that were housing many of
heightened threat, on containing expected reprisals and the Daesh fighters who pose a risk—both to us and to
on calling for de-escalation, but with the architect of so civilians in northern Syria. The prisons have effectively
much instability removed is there not a rare opportunity been left abandoned because of the consequences of
to reset our middle east strategy? First, we could be US actions with regard to our Kurdish allies and Turkey’s
more assertive in tackling proxy interference and weapons intervention. What is the Secretary of State’s assessment
proliferation, and, secondly, we could be more proactive of the security of the prisons and of the risk posed by
in offering conditional but genuine economic rehabilitation the escape of prisoners from them?
for Iran.
Mr Wallace: At present, we, the French and even the
Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend is right. What has United States consistently talk with the likes of the
been brought into sharp focus is the fact that time has Syrian Democratic Forces to ensure that the prisons are
run out. We must sort this out in the middle east on a still guarded and that we provide whatever support we
collective basis and try to put in place a long-lasting can to help them with that. Like the hon. Gentleman,
solution. He is also right to make the point that, in one we recognise the importance of those prisons, which
sense, Soleimani’s passing provides an opportunity for contain lots of foreign fighters as well as more localised
people to realise that his policy has done nothing but fighters. We do not want Daesh to be reborn in those
make Iran a pariah state. We should also not forget that prisons, and it is incredibly important that we are able
the population of Iran, just like the population of Iraq, to stay in Iraq because we are partly going to deal with
do not want America, do not want Britain and do not that situation in partnership with the Iraqis—there are
want the current regime; they want their own nation. Iraqi foreign fighters and others. We urge the Iraqi
Iraqis are nationalistic and Iranians are nationalistic. Government to reconsider their vote, because we think
When dealing with those countries, we should never it would be useful to stay to secure that situation.
forget that, if we can give those people their country
back, we can support their human rights. That is the James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): As the Secretary
best way for us in the west to proceed, rather than of State says, the British Army has played a crucial role
imposing a solution on them. in training Iraqi and Kurdish troops; I have seen it with
my own eyes. Does he agree not only that it is essential
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Now that we safeguard our troops in Iraq for their own
that the Iran nuclear deal, recklessly abandoned by safety but that the whole future of our middle east
President Trump, hangs by a thread, does the Minister policy is dependent on our continuing to contain Daesh
acknowledge that, as well as doing everything that he in Iraq, in which the armed forces have an extremely
can to help restore it, he should understand that the important part to play?
nuclear non-proliferation treaty review conference in
May will be even more critical in rebuilding trust? Can Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend is absolutely right.
he guarantee that the Government will play a very Nation building in Iraq is really important—not just for
serious role at that conference in using it to demonstrate us, but for the people of Iraq. We have only suspended
real commitment to multilateral disarmament? the training; we have not stopped it, because we still
267 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 268

think it is really important to help with capacity building The Kurds have often felt insecure because of the
and security forces. We will seek to restart the training history of many nations, including Iran, that have set
as soon as possible. about them. So the first thing we should all do is seek to
find security guarantees for many of these people, and
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): It will not be lost in that way we can set the next process of resolving the
on the Defence Secretary that one of the first political problems between the different parts of the middle east.
organisations to mourn the passing of Soleimani was
Republican Sinn Féin, some of whose members may be Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): I welcome my right
well known to Labour Front Benchers. The Government hon. Friend’s statement and the personal authority and
previously indicated that they were carrying out a review experience he brings to this issue. Will he work with all
of whether to proscribe the Muslim Brotherhood. I our coalition allies to sustain our commitment to all the
understand that the organisations we are discussing are people of Iraq, most of whom would not welcome our
Shi’a, but is there still going to be a review into proscribing abandoning them to the forces both heretical and now
the Muslim Brotherhood, and would that help to protect corrupt, not least in the Islamic Revolutionary Guard
the citizens of this country? Corps behind the Iranian revolution?
Mr Wallace: The hon. Gentleman makes a point
about Republican Sinn Féin. I noticed the tweet: it is Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend and I visited Iran as
bizarre, but it shows the long tentacles that Hezbollah well, a long time ago, and he speaks a lot of sense.
or the revolutionary guard of Iran may have had in the Britain’s focus has to be about how we can continue,
hon. Gentleman’s own communities. The proscription over the long term, supporting Iraq and its people. It is
of any organisation is a matter for the Home Office, a complex country with many different groups, and
which will no doubt have heard what the hon. Gentleman those differences have been exploited recently by Iranian-
has said; I can get him an answer from that Department backed militia, which again, instead of helping those
if he wishes. people, has actually led to misery. We must do what we
can to capacity-build the Iraqi state so that they can
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I make decisions for themselves.
very much welcome the Secretary of State’s statement
on de-escalation. As he knows, de-escalation could mean Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): Of
many things to many people. If one asked the Syrians, course, many of us have great concerns about the
the Iraqis or the Lebanese, they would say that de-escalation repercussions of this event and the fact that, rather than
means the Iranian militia not operating in their sovereign de-escalating the situation, we see the opposite happening.
territory. What have the Iranians said their end game is? In whatever discussions the Secretary of State has with
What do they want to de-escalate the situation, because his US counterparts, will he, if he manages to have any
in the end there has to be de-escalation, with people influence with them, state very clearly that we do not
living side by side and conducting themselves in a support this method of taking out our enemies and that
neighbourly way? winning the battle of hearts and minds has much more
effect, in the long term, than this?
Mr Wallace: All my experience with the Iranians
indicates that they want Iran to be a nation of the world Mr Wallace: I certainly press on the United States,
that is respected and remembered for its culture and which has also said that it is not in its interests, or its
position; that is their end state. The challenge is that wish, to increase tensions. It does not want this event to
some think that they should get there in a way that has lead to war. It has been very, very clear about that, as
delivered this type of pariah status for them. We need to have, indeed, the Iranian leadership. If we accept that
point out the importance of the rule of law. It is bizarre, both the Iranians and the United States have been
but the Iranians have a very good constitution that they adamant that they do want a war, we should then work
seek to avoid half the time. The way for them to enter on that as a way to get both sides to seek a resolution.
into the world of civilised nations again is to behave like
one, and that is what we are there to help with and
support, and there are many people in the country who Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Very
know exactly that. few countries’ hands are completely clean in the region.
A key part of the problem is that there has been a lack
Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): The Secretary of a co-ordinated, overarching peace process, particularly
of State recognises how the safer and more pluralistic now that the Iranian nuclear deal is dead. Does my
Kurdistan region can play a positive role in the wider right hon. Friend agree that from our point of view the
efforts to de-escalate the conflict, but it does need elephant in the room is that we need to spend more on
stronger assurances about its own security and continuing our defence and diplomacy—raise that expenditure—
UK efforts so that it can remain respected and neutral not just to send a very clear signal to the world that we
as a player in this situation. Does he now think it is time are going to better defend our interests, if we need to,
to implement the promise made to invite the leadership but to hold greater sway with our key allies, particularly
of the Kurdish Regional Government to the UK on an the US, in this particular region?
official visit?
Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend makes the really important
Mr Wallace: What is important is that the Kurds—and, point that both diplomacy and defence do not come
indeed, some of the sectarian groups, or ethnic groups, cheap and we need to invest in that. Sometimes we need
in the area—understand about security. It is often insecurity to invest in helping others to defend themselves as well.
that has driven many of these conflicts for dozens of I think it is one of the most noble things to defend those
years. Iran feels desperately insecure, often, in its region. who cannot defend themselves.
269 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 270

Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I welcome the steps that where we are working with the Americans on protecting
the Secretary of State has outlined to de-escalate tensions, our tankers. He is right; tanker wars, as they were called
but if those were to fail and Iran were to retaliate with in the 1980s, have been around for a long time. The
an attack that resulted in the deaths of British service Iranians used to fire rocket-propelled grenades at tankers
personnel and civilians, what would be our response? back then, deliberately to spike the oil price. He makes a
good suggestion.
Mr Wallace: If British civilians or even military personnel
were killed as a result of Iranian or terrorist action, we Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)
would look at the response. The response would no (PC): Since the assassination, as part of its military
doubt be proportionate, and we will of course look at it build-up, the US has deployed long-range bombers to
at the time of it happening. Diego Garcia, a territory that the British state illegally
occupies. The Secretary of State talks about de-escalation,
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): My right hon. but is not the reality that the British Government’s
Friend has mentioned the 14 attacks that have happened actions are actually helping to escalate the crisis?
since October in Baghdad, but is he aware that the US
Department of Defence has estimated that more than
600 servicemen have been killed by Iran or its proxies? Mr Wallace: No. The United States has said that it
What estimate has he made of the number of British has deployed many of its troops in response to the
servicemen who have been killed, and does he agree that rhetoric coming out of Iran, to ensure that it protects its
when there is an imbalance and people either defend the forces, and of course that is the right thing to do. We
actions of Iran or attack the United States, it simply have sent a small team to ensure that our military
gives comfort to Tehran? planners are properly enabled, and we have changed the
posture of our forces in Iraq to ensure that they are
Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend makes a point about the currently focusing on their force protection. That does
deaths of United States personnel. We should not forget, not mean that we are preparing to do anything else, nor
and we should pay tribute to, the 179 UK defence does it mean that the United States is.
personnel who died in operations in Iraq and the 454 who
died in operations in Afghanistan. He will remember, Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): In the last six
like me, that many of the tragic deaths of UK personnel months alone, Iran has disregarded four tenets of the
in Iraq happened in Basra, where the Shi’a militia were JCPOA. In addition, Iran has refused to answer questions
supported and instigated by members of the Iranian from the International Atomic Energy Agency about
revolutionary guard. uranium particles found at a previously undisclosed
location. We should not forget that the JCPOA allowed
Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): I millions of pounds, in addition to manpower and resources,
thank the Secretary of State for his statement, in particular to pour into Syria to continue that war and kill thousands
his emphasis on de-escalating tension, and acknowledge of people. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is
his genuine expertise on Iran. Given how damaging the simply incorrect for anyone to say that the JCPOA is
Iraq war was to security in the middle east and given the alive and well?
Government’s support for reducing tension, will he now
rule out any British involvement in any attack on any
site in Iran? Mr Wallace: I did not say the JCPOA was alive and
well and all business as normal; I said it was not dead.
Mr Wallace: I am not going to rule out anything. The The JCPOA is a deal that I believe was the right thing to
UK will do what it has to do to defend its persons—its do. I remember, even before it was formed, that I and
citizens—wherever it needs to; that is our duty. We even the Leader of the Opposition would urge the Bush
cannot say what is in the minds of Iran or anybody else Administration to talk to the Iranians to engage and
in the future, and that is why we will always reserve our seek a way through, and we came to an Iranian deal
right to take that decision at the time. that we thought was correctly monitored and that the
European powers thought was a good way through.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Events However, my hon. Friend is right: it is not just that the
like this have an immediate impact on all our constituents, United States withdrew; the Iranians have tested every
and my constituents will be noticing the oil price rising, single inch of the written agreement. That does not
with concerns about their household budgets. That detract from the fact that we believe the JCPOA is the
brings us back to the strait of Hormuz. For the last right way forward, and we will invest our time and effort
70 years, NATO has had a policy of deterrence working in trying to make sure it has a future.
as prevention. Will my right hon. Friend meet his
counterparts in our NATO allies to discuss the possibility Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth)
of using NATO maritime resources to put protection (Lab): I welcome what the Secretary of State for Defence
forces in place that would act as a deterrent, rather than said about the de-escalation actions that his Ministers
having to react to any activity that takes place? and officials will be taking in relation to Iran, but the
response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds
Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend makes a really Central (Hilary Benn) suggests that the Secretary of
good suggestion, and I will take it up at the NATO State was taken by surprise by the actions the US has
Defence Ministers’ meeting for him. He is right. We just taken in declining to give a visa to the Iranian
already have a number of international coalitions in the Foreign Minister. What actions are his Administration
strait, such as on anti-piracy, which even involves China, taking to ensure that the US but also the UN play a full
and the International Maritime Security Construct, role in helping to de-escalate these events?
271 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 272

Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary Mr Wallace: The Government will consider all options
is visiting the United States later this week, when our as they see the latest announcements from Iran and in
determination will be to try to seek a diplomatic way discussion with bodies such as the International Energy
out. In that, he will no doubt have discussions with his Agency.
counterparts, and we will see where we can get to. The
United States does not share its visa decisions on a live Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): A couple of years ago
wire with us. However, we saw earlier reports, as I think I was pleased to visit HMS Jufair in Bahrain. What
many Members here have done. We will find out and get additional Royal Navy support will be deployed to the
to the bottom of it. Certainly, my urging from the Gulf to ensure the safety and security of British shipping
Dispatch Box on behalf of the Government is that we and interests?
think allowing Mr Zarif to go to the UN would of
course be a sensible thing to do. Mr Wallace: In the Gulf region we currently have
HMS Defender and HMS Montrose—a Type 45 and a
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): The Type 23 frigate. We have a Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship
Defence Secretary has mentioned on numerous occasions with helicopter support, and a number of minesweepers.
during his statement the importance of our diplomatic We have a lot of Navy assets in that region, as do our
network in de-escalating this crisis. Does he agree with allies and other Gulf Arab states in that area, and we
me that the position of the UK ambassador to Washington will work together and hold co-ordination meetings to
has now been vacant for far too long, and will he try to ensure that we maximise their use. We are currently
encourage the Foreign Secretary to make that appointment? focused on ensuring that we do not provoke on the
Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend had an excellent record Iranian coastline, while ensuring that we maintain the
as a Foreign Office Minister. I will ask the Prime international law of freedom of navigation, so that
Minister at the NSC next. those ships that are vital to our economy are not
intimidated or kidnapped.
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): Are there
any other members or officials of the Iranian Government Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP):
whose assassination the United Kingdom would find It is unwise to threaten it once; it is deeply alarming to
acceptable? threaten it twice. If US President Trump does intend to
target Iranian cultural sites, what will the UK response
Mr Wallace: I do not know how to start on that be? To what extent will that response be influenced by
question. The United Kingdom would always seek to the UK Government seeking a trade deal with the US?
follow international law in dealing with threats against
it. Within that international law range all the options Mr Wallace: We have been clear that we will seek for
such as arrest, detention and disruption, but there are everyone to comply with international law. Targeting
some occasions—for example, when we saw the events heritage sites is against international law, and we will
in Syria take place—when, unfortunately, kinetic or not be shy in calling that out publicly or privately to the
lethal strike has been engaged by the RAF. The British United States. After that statement by the President, the
Government have been very open about that, and it United States Defence Secretary made it clear that US
followed a vote in Parliament. We will always reserve in policy is not to target heritage sites.
this country the right for us to defend ourselves against
threats posed to our citizens, and I do not think the First Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): One reason
Minister of Scotland would disagree with that at all. that the US pulled out of the JCPOA was the fact that it
was not comprehensive and did not cover all the other
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): With hard-line
terrorist actions taking place, including those carried
voices currently drowning out moderate voices in Iran,
out by General Soleimani. Does the Secretary of State
what confidence can this House have that the President
think that one way to kick-start and use what has
of the United States is alert to the Pandora’s box he has
happened as a diplomatic opportunity for peace is to
potentially opened, and what can the international civilised
try to widen the JCPOA’s remit to cover all those other
community do to articulate what it is to be a moderate
actions, rather than just focusing on the nuclear
country and to give succour, support and encouragement
arrangements, important though they are?
to those moderate voices in Iran to remain moderate
and to remain speaking out?
Mr Wallace: My right hon. Friend talks a lot of sense,
Mr Wallace: I think the best way we can empower the and that reflects what both sides used to want. In 2006
moderate voice of Iran is to offer the hand of friendship the Iranians made what was called the “grand bargain”,
to a way out—to say, “This is not about a war.” We do which was a whole offer that included—if memory serves
not want a war. We do not want the conflict to increase. me rightly—recognition of Israel and the abandonment
We want to be clear about what behaviour we think of any nuclear programme. Both sides seem to want a
should change, and also be prepared to deal in other “grand offer”; both sides want a “grand deal”, and I
parts to make sure we try to get them in a better place. I think it our duty to try to get them to the table to offer
think that is the best solution for Iran. The moderates such a deal.
know that. Let us hope they can hear it.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab):
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): May I press on the Secretary of State the importance of
The JCPOA has been mentioned several times this our UK citizens and residents who are based in prisons?
afternoon. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Those include my constituent in Evin Prison, who remains
UK Government’s position is that there are no immediate an employee of the British Council. When was the last
grounds to trigger the dispute mechanism in that agreement? time that a ministerial intervention led to an improvement
273 Middle East: Security 7 JANUARY 2020 Middle East: Security 274

[Catherine West] Mr Wallace: We support Israel. We support its right

to defend itself and its right to exist, and we will work
in the welfare of any of those prisoners, or to the hope alongside it to make sure that its security is protected.
that they will be returned, in this case to Crouch End in We will also work alongside anyone in the middle east
London? who seeks to establish better stability and security for
their people, but also to ensure we resolve this current
Mr Wallace: I will get the hon. Lady the exact detail growing conflict.
of when, but all the time we are visiting, or trying to
visit, with interlocuters, individuals held in those prisons. Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): It is obviously vital
As she rightly says, this is not just one individual; there for global security that Iran does not achieve ownership
is a whole group from many nations—they are not just of nuclear weapons. I thank the Secretary of State for
British-Iranian nationals, but Europeans and Americans his work with France and Germany to reboot the JCPOA.
and so on are held there. It is part of a deliberate policy, Given that it is now coming up for two years since
and the individuals and judiciary in Iran who have been the US pulled out, if that is not achieved, what is the
appointed most recently are a worrying sign about the plan B?
current intention of the Iranian regime in carrying on
that policy. We must change that policy, and in the Mr Wallace: We are going to be working hard to
meantime we must be alert to the health and wellbeing make sure it is achieved. The President of the United
of people in those prisons. We will try—not only with States has talked about a grand deal. He has talked
our own embassy staff but with other third countries—to about a bigger and more sustainable long-term deal. He
see what help can be given to increase pressure in Iran has talked about wanting to do a broader deal. We will
and ensure that we support those prisoners. of course assist in that process if the US continues on
that path and we will reach out to the Iranians. We have
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): no ill will towards the Iranian people. We should not
Protecting and promoting culture is a key way of stabilising forget that this Government are concerned and saddened
countries and forging bonds between nations. To that by the loss of up to 50 people in the stampede at the
end, the Government’s support of the British Museum funeral that took place. We send our condolences to
scheme, which is training Iraqi archaeologists to go those mourners and to that population. No one should
back and restore the sites that were so desecrated by have to go through that. Our hand of friendship is there
Daesh, is a win-win situation. In 2017 the UN Security for the people of Iran. If all this teaches us something,
Council, including America, voted to condemn those it is that the leadership of Iran has not served its people
acts against UNESCO world heritage sites. Does the well; it has led them down a cul-de-sac and it has led the
Secretary of State agree that if the US President has middle east to a less stable, not more stable, position.
now decided unilaterally to reverse that policy, that is
not only remarkably stupid but counterproductive as Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): Clearly, any
well? escalation of tensions in the region could have significant
consequences not only for our armed forces, but civilian
Mr Wallace: My hon. Friend makes the point that it populations there. It is time for cool heads. The
would be a crime to attack heritage sites. I have made it Commander-in-Chief of the United States is not known
quite clear that US policy is not to target such sites. to be a cool head. What action can the Government
That has been clarified by the US Defence Secretary. take to ensure that late night Twitter tirades do not
We will ensure that we are very clear in our opposition further escalate tensions in the region?
to the targeting of heritage sites anywhere in the world,
not just in the middle east. They are a part of our Mr Wallace: There are many of us who should take
heritage and our history. tips about Twitter. The main point is that it was in
response to a specific threat that the United States took
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Secretary an action. The hon. Gentleman can disagree on whether
of State for his statement. Iran is no longer a place of it should have done that, but after that action has taken
cultural, historical and human rights diversity. Under place there is a duty on all of us to ensure that that
General Soleimani and the Quds Force of the Islamic single event does not lead to an escalation. The White
Revolutionary Guard Corps and its involvement with House and the US Administration are on the same
terrorist groups across the world, Iran has the blood of page; they are also keen to de-escalate the situation. The
thousands of innocents on its hands. Iran has said that challenge for this Government, the Germans, the French
it will continue to pursue nuclear power. It has also and our allies is to ensure we convert those wishes of
stated that it will not rest until Israel is destroyed. What not wanting to escalate into action. That is what we are
steps is the Secretary of State taking to provide help going to be doing over the next days and weeks.
and support for Israel in the light of the threat from
Iran against its so-called enemy? Further, will he publicly Mr Speaker: May I just say to those Members who
state again that this great nation of the United Kingdom did not get called that we do have a list of them and I
of Great Britain and Northern Ireland stands alongside would expect them to be taken very early in the next
Israel at all times? statement or next questions?
275 7 JANUARY 2020 Points of Order 276

Points of Order once and that their vote will be ranked; and secondly,
what arrangements in terms of time and place you have
made for the election to take place tomorrow?
4.59 pm
Mr Speaker: Standing Order No. 2A sets out the
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): rules on the election of Deputy Speakers. There is a
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise for raising secret ballot. Candidates are in alphabetical order. Members
a complicated matter, but I hope that you have been can vote for as many or as few candidates on the ballot
given warning that this might be raised. It concerns the paper as they wish, marking the candidates in order of
election tomorrow of a Deputy Chairman of Ways and preference. Ballots are counted under the single transferable
Means and the other Deputy Speakers. There is a deal vote. Nominations close at 6 pm this afternoon—so we
of confusion about how the voting system works. It is will know the list, which may help. See paragraph 10 of
extremely complicated, because we are electing three the briefing notes—Members each have one vote, which
posts, but with restrictions. There must be one woman. is transferable. The wording will be on the ballot paper,
There must be one Member of the Opposition and two with an explanation of that. What time it is declared
must come from the Government side, and one will be will depend on the count and how quick that is, but
Chairman of Ways and Means. Can you clarify, therefore, obviously, other business will defer the announcement
that a voter’s first preferences may be counted even if of it. My understanding is that the vote takes place
that voter’s first preference choice is elected, which may between 10 am and 1.30 pm, as I stated earlier—I
affect the outcome of the election of the Chairman of pointed out what time the ballot is open. Hopefully,
Ways and Means? that is helpful to Members and we can move on, as we
have a long night ahead of us.
Mr Speaker: I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman
did not raise that in 2010, when I stood. You have Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order,
managed to cope with the system all this time. You have Mr Speaker. This is about elections, but not those
managed to accept it until now, and I find it quite elections, I am afraid. As you will know, members of
strange for this suddenly to be raised at the last minute. the new Government were appointed on 24 July last
The House has been aware of this voting system and it year. Many of them have yet to face a Select Committee
has accepted it. However, I think that this is slightly grilling, including the Chancellor of the Exchequer and
premature because at 6 o’clock we will know how the the Foreign Secretary. The Leader of the House’s office
system will work and whether one candidate is automatically at the moment is telling the press that it is unlikely that
elected. That may be a woman—I am not sure. It might Select Committees will be in place before Easter. That
be better if we waited until 6 pm to see what the system would mean that those Ministers would have ruled this
throws up because this answer will be different, depending country for nine months without ever facing a grilling
on what happens. from a Select Committee. Is there anything in your
However, I assure the House that I was not impressed power that you can do to make sure that this process is
with this system in 2010. The House has had many expedited, so that the proper duties of scrutiny can be
chances to change it. If Members are unhappy, it is up done by this House?
to the House to change the system. Please do so, because Mr Speaker: I would like to think that a conversation
back in 2010 I genuinely thought that it was not the will take place between the usual channels, and anything
best. If you are still telling me that it is not good now, that I can do to help to ensure that we get Committees
there is a way to do something, but I find it strange that up and running, I will. I think that it is better for the
we have waited all this time to raise this. House and it gives Members a real interest in getting
their teeth into holding the Government to account
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): and making sure that Select Committees are effective.
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Assuming [Interruption.] I hear one voice saying, “I have done
that there is an election tomorrow, could you inform the two already.” Some may not have, but others have
House, first, that everybody will be required to vote only certainly carried out their duties.
277 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 278
Agreement) Bill
European Union (Withdrawal (2) Those conditions are—
(a) it is before 15 June 2020;
Agreement) Bill
(b) an agreement on the future trade relationship has been
concluded;
[1ST ALLOTTED DAY]
(c) the House of Commons has passed a motion in the
Considered in Committee form set out in subsection (3) and the House of Lords
has considered a motion to take note of the Government’s
intention not to request an extension.
SIR ROGER GALE in the Chair
(3) The form of the motion mentioned in subsection (2)(c) is
“That this House approves of the Government’s decision not to
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Roger Gale): apply for an extension to the period for implementing the agreement
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. As this is the between the United Kingdom and the EU under Article 50(2) of
first Committee of the whole House of a new Parliament, the Treaty on European Union which sets out the arrangements
it might be of benefit to those who are not entirely for the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the EU”.
familiar with the arcane process, and indeed to those (4) If the Joint Committee does not agree the extension
who thought they were but are not, if I seek to explain specified in subsection (1) but EU representatives on the Joint
how this proceeds. Committee indicate that they would agree an extension for a
shorter period, a Minister of the Crown must move a motion in
You will find on the Order Paper that the amendments the House of Commons to agree the shorter period proposed,
are grouped and that helpfully they are grouped not in and if that motion is agreed, a Minister of the Crown must agree
sequence but by subject. The Chair will try to confine that shorter extension in the Joint Committee.
the debate to the subject matter, without being too (5) Any Minister of the Crown who attends the Joint
rigorous in exercising control. Ordinarily, the groups Committee may seek agreement to terminate the implementation
will form the basis of a debate, the first part of which I period if a final agreement on the future trade relationship is
will introduce and to which the Secretary of State or ratified before the end of the implementation period.’”
Minister will then respond. Exceptionally, because this This new clause would restore the role for Parliament in deciding
is the first day of a two-day debate to which a plethora whether to extend transition to avoid a WTO Brexit.
of amendments has been tabled, I have deemed it New clause 36—Extension of implementation period—
helpful to invite the Secretary of State to open the “After section 15 of the European Union (Withdrawal)
debate to set out the stall, and on that basis, of course, if Act 2018 (publication and rules of evidence) insert—
the Opposition Front-Bench spokesperson wishes to ‘15A Extension of implementation period
come in immediately following that, that would also be
entirely acceptable. (1) If by 1 June 2020, agreements on both of the matters
specified in subsection (2) have not been concluded, any Minister
I have one final point to make. Mr Speaker has of the Crown who attends the Joint Committee must seek to
decided that, although any Member has a right to speak secure agreement in the Joint Committee to a single decision to
in this House, it is not desirable for new Members to extend the implementation period by two years, in accordance
make maiden speeches during the Committee. He has with Article 132 of the Withdrawal Agreement.
decided this for two reasons: first, it will simply delay (2) The specified matters for the purposes of subsection (1)
the process, and, secondly—and much more importantly, are—
from the point of view of those new Members—inevitably (a) the future trade relationship between the United
their freedom of movement to describe their constituencies Kingdom and the EU.
as the second garden of Eden will be limited. I am (b) a security partnership including law enforcement and
advised that there will be an opportunity to participate judicial cooperation in criminal matters.
first on Third Reading on Thursday, when the Speaker (3) If the Joint Committee does not agree the extension specified
will be in the Chair, and then subsequently during the in subsection (1) but EU representatives on the Joint Committee
remaining debate on the Queen’s Speech. I hope that is indicate that they would agree an extension for a shorter period, a
all clear and helpful. With that in mind, we will move to Minister of the Crown must move a motion in the House of
the first group of amendments. Commons to agree the shorter period proposed, and if that
motion is agreed, a Minister of the Crown must agree that shorter
extension in the Joint Committee.
Clause 1 (4) Any Minister of the Crown who attends the Joint Committee
may seek agreement to terminate the implementation period if
SAVING OF ECA FOR IMPLEMENTATION PERIOD final agreements on both of the matters specified in subsection (2)
are ratified before the end of the implementation period.’”
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the
This new clause would require the UK Government to seek an
Bill. extension to the implementation period if agreements on trade and
security have not been completed by 1 June 2020.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to
Clause 33 stand part.
discuss the following:
Clauses 2 to 6 stand part.
4.57 pm
New clause 4—Extension of the implementation period—
“After section 15 of the European Union (Withdrawal)
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union
Act 2018 (publication of and rules of evidence) insert— (Steve Barclay): I begin by wishing you, Sir Roger, and
‘15A Extension of the implementation period
all Members of the House a happy new year.
(1) A Minister of the Crown must seek to secure agreement
The Bill implements the withdrawal agreement negotiated
in the Joint Committee to a single decision to extend the by the Prime Minister. It fulfils the will of the British
implementation period by two years, in accordance with Article 132 people and will set the stage for our bright future
of the Withdrawal Agreement unless one or more condition in outside the European Union. It lets us take back control
subsection (2) is met. of our laws, our money, our borders and our trade
279 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 280
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
policy, and it delivers on the overwhelming mandate Clause 2 saves EU-derived domestic legislation for
given to us by the British people to get Brexit done by the implementation period. The last one and a half
the end of January. decades have seen a substantial amount of EU legislation
Sir Roger, as you have just informed the Committee, I that has required domestic legislation, both primary
am, under your guidance, speaking to this group. I and secondary. That domestic legislation constitutes a
will speak to clauses 1 to 6, clause 33 and new clauses 4 large body of law, and to ensure that the law continues
and 36, noting that new clause 19 and amendment 25 to work properly during the implementation period, we
have not been selected. need to take several important steps. First, we must
preserve the legislation to avoid its being impliedly
Clause 1 gives legal effect to the implementation repealed following the repeal of the ECA. If we do not
period in domestic law. The implementation period save it, there will be a risk that it will either fall away or
ensures that common rules will remain in place until the be emptied of meaning, which could mean that citizens
end of this year, meaning that businesses will be able to and businesses were no longer protected by, or indeed
trade on the same terms as now until a future relationship able to rely on, existing rules.
has been agreed. This provides certainty and stability
The second essential purpose of the clause is to
for the duration of this time. During the implementation
maintain the proper functions of the statute book for
period, the effect of the European Communities Act 1972
the duration of the implementation period. During that
will be saved and modified on a temporary basis to
period, we will continue to apply this law, but we will
provide the necessary continuity. It will have a new purpose:
not be part of the European Union. To ensure that that
to give effect to EU law as set out in the withdrawal
is reflected in the statute book, the Bill provides for
agreement, to provide for the implementation period.
time-limited glosses, or modifications, to new and existing
As a result, businesses and citizens need prepare for
EU-derived legislation. Those glosses make clear the
only one set of changes as we move into our future
way in which EU law terms and UK legislation should
relationship with the EU.
be read so that our laws continue to work during the
implementation period. Let me give one example. All
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Can my right references to European Union citizens in the UK statute
hon. Friend give us an estimate of how much the book will, as a general rule, be read as including UK
implementation period will cost us, and will he reassure nationals during the implementation period. These
us that once we are out properly at the end of this year, provisions will automatically be repealed at the end of
there will be no future payments thereafter? the year when they are no longer needed.

Steve Barclay: This will secure our membership for Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I hope that the Secretary
the period. One of the costs for businesses—one of the of State will be able to clarify whether that also applies
greater costs—would result from two sets of changes, to the European arrest warrant. Obviously, we will
without the comfort of an implementation period. The remain subject to it and able to take advantage of it
business community itself—of which I know my right during the implementation period, but at the end of
hon. Friend is a great champion—said that it wanted an that period, as a third party, we will simply not be able
implementation period while the negotiation on the to enter into it. During the implementation period, will
trade deal was being conducted to avoid the higher cost British subjects still be subject to the arrest warrant
of two sets of changes. overseas?
The saving of the ECA will be repealed at the end of Steve Barclay: Under clause 1, the implementation
the implementation period, at which point the repurposed period ensures the continuity of the law. That is why it is
ECA will cease to have effect. Clause 1 is essential to saved, but modified. Clause 2, and the others in the
achieving the terms agreed in the withdrawal agreement group, deal with the technical terminology. Where there
and ensuring the proper functioning of European Union is a change in meaning, it means continuity. I see that
law during the implementation period, and for that the hon. Gentleman is frowning. The substance of my
reason it must stand part of the Bill. reply is yes, in that the Bill ensures continuity. The
purpose of terms such as “European Union citizen”
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I still do will have ceased because we will have left, but, on the
not think that the Secretary of State has made a clear other hand, the implementation in EU law will continue,
enough case for why he would wish to tie the Government’s allowing those terms to continue to be applied and any
hands in such an unnecessary way and risk the disaster tidying up—any technical changes—to be applied. So
of no deal. Also, there could be perfectly constructive this is a technical glossing and that is its purpose.
negotiations going ahead, which he would be prepared
to throw away if they could not fit into the arbitrarily Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab):
short time of 11 months. Will he tell us why he thinks it While the Secretary of State is on his feet discussing
is worth running that risk, which is such a big risk for this, could he set out the exact position for EU nationals,
our businesses and for our economy? because those of us who have up to 42,000 living locally
are extremely concerned? There have been lots of discussions
and tweets about this, so could he please just lay out
Steve Barclay: I know that we have two days for the exactly what the position will be not only during the
Committee stage, but it is very odd for someone who next 12 months of the implementation plan but going
wants us to remain a member of the European Union forward?
to complain about the fact that we have an implementation
period so that the business community does not face Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady raises an important
two sets of changes and so that we give businesses point. I do not want to stray too far into the second
confidence for the rest of the year. grouping in Committee, which is indeed on citizens’
281 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 282
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Steve Barclay] Steve Barclay: We will debate at length tomorrow the
provisions relating specifically to Northern Ireland, but
rights and which the Security Minister will address, but there is a further sovereignty within the Bill in respect of
what this Bill is doing is securing the rights of EU Northern Ireland. I do not want to stray too far into
citizens within the UK and indeed the rights of UK that debate now, but there is a consent mechanism that
citizens in the European Union, because we value the pertains specifically to the Northern Ireland protocol,
contribution that those EU citizens make to the UK. so there is a further sovereignty lock in that regard.
They have chosen to make their homes here and to However, that is a matter for the groupings that we will
bring up their families here, and their rights are protected. address tomorrow.
That is one of the reasons that I urge Members on both Turning to clause 3, we are confident that the list of
sides of the House to support this Bill. so-called glosses set out in clause 2 works in all the cases
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): During the transitional that we have examined, and I pay tribute to the officials
period, laws will be made in the European Union that who have trawled the statute book in that regard. However,
we will be expected to obey. Does my right hon. Friend it is right that we, as a responsible Government, reserve
agree, however, that clauses 29 and 38—one of which the ability to nuance the impact of those technical changes
deals with the review of legislation through the auspices should unforeseen issues arise during the implementation
of the European Scrutiny Committee, where we will be period. The power set out in clause 3 provides for that.
affected by our vital national interests being undermined— The Bill gives five different applications for that power.
provide good protection for the United Kingdom’s national Three relate to the glosses. The power can add to the
interests? Secondly, does he agree that the question of glosses; it can make exceptions; and it can be used to
parliamentary sovereignty in clause 38 will complement make different provisions from the list, if for any reason
that by ensuring that the whole process of legislation we need to change a gloss in a specific case or set of
under the withdrawal agreement will not affect the cases. The power has two further applications: it can be
continuing sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament, used to tidy up the European Union (Withdrawal)
and that this therefore effectively provides a double lock Act 2018 and to cover any specific technical inoperabilities
on the rights of this House as we leave the European that may occur that have not been foreseen. It is appropriate,
Union? prudent and sensible that the Government are prepared
in this regard, which is why those five elements are in
Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to the Bill.
signpost those two safeguards being put in place, in
which he played a significant part, but I would say that Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): Analysis
there are three. I will come on to the third, if I may by the Scottish Parliament Information Centre, which is
slightly push him by making that correction. He is right the equivalent of the House of Commons Library and
to say that the European Scrutiny Committee, under his is therefore independent, notes that clause 3 empowers
chairmanship, will have the right to trigger debates and UK Ministers acting alone to make provision in devolved
scrutiny. Secondly, he has championed the clause dealing policy areas. The Government’s delegated powers
with the sovereignty of Parliament, which is set out memorandum states that they will not normally do so
clearly in the Bill. The third element that I would draw without the agreement of the relevant devolved
to his attention, which is within this grouping, is our Administration, but as the Secretary of State will be
legislating for the Government’s manifesto commitment aware, the Sewel convention does not apply to delegated
not to extend the implementation period. That will legislation. Does he therefore agree that this power
ensure that there is no extension of the implementation shows that the Bill is indeed the power grab that the
period and will therefore ensure that there is no risk of a Scottish National party has always said it is? If it is not,
further one-year or two-year period during which the why is it there at all?
issue about which he was concerned in relation to those
two other clauses could arise. So there are three protections, Steve Barclay: The hon. and learned Lady is incorrect
and not just the two that he mentioned. in saying that. First, this is an international agreement,
which is a reserved matter—a matter for the United
Sir William Cash: Very, very good! Kingdom. Secondly, these are glosses—technical issues—in
Steve Barclay: I am pleased that my hon. Friend terms of the tidying up that I set out, and they are
signals from a sedentary position that he is content with tightly defined. Thirdly, the devolved elements are addressed
that. by giving the devolved Assemblies the power, through
Ultimately, clause 1 will ensure that there is continuity clause 4, to do further glosses themselves.
in our laws during the implementation period and that
our law continues to operate properly. It is therefore Joanna Cherry: I am sorry, but the Secretary of State
essential and must stand part of the Bill. is simply wrong about that. On any legal analysis, it is
quite clear that clause 3 gives UK Ministers acting
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): The Secretary of alone the power to make regulations in relation to areas
State has commented about the sovereignty of this of devolved competence. I reiterate my question: why is
United Kingdom Parliament across the whole United that power there at all if the Government are not
Kingdom. At all stages in the future, as marked out by intending to use it to take powers away from the Scottish
the Northern Ireland protocol and the exceptions to Parliament and other devolved Administrations?
this Bill, the people of Northern Ireland will be subject
to European Union law for a long time into the future, Steve Barclay: Again, with great respect to the hon.
as far as we can see, so it is not correct, is it, to say that and learned Lady, she is over-reaching in the interpretation
the sovereignty of the entire United Kingdom will be that she is applying to clause 3. It is a technical provision
placed in this place? that allows for technical changes—glosses to terminology
283 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 284
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
—such as the example that I gave the Committee a that the implementation period will work in relation to
moment ago of how EU citizens may be defined. The devolved legislation should any issues be identified.
clause is for technical changes in unforeseen areas, Clause 4 must therefore stand part of the Bill.
rather than fundamental changes of powers. Indeed, we Clause 5 provides for the direct application of the
have given an equivalent power through clause 4, in provisions of the withdrawal agreement in domestic
respect of the ability of the devolved authorities to do law. It will also allow individuals and businesses to rely
exactly the same thing or very similar. directly on the withdrawal agreement. They will be able
Clause 3 must stand part of the Bill to ensure that the to know that there is consistency in how the agreement
statute book is maintained and that any unforeseen is applied in both the UK and the EU. It is also
technical issues that arise in future are addressed. That necessary to give domestic legal effect to article 4 of the
is why clause 3 is required. It is not as the hon. and withdrawal agreement. Through this clause, most of the
learned Lady characterises it; it is a technical provision provisions of the agreement will flow into UK law
for glosses for any issues that were unforeseen at the directly without the need for further legislation.
time of the Bill’s passage. The withdrawal agreement will, among other things,
secure the rights of more than 3 million EU citizens
Joanna Cherry: Could I probe that a bit further? In
living in the UK and around 1 million UK nationals
clause 4, proposed new paragraph 11B specifically provides
living in the EU. Ensuring that the withdrawal agreement
that Scottish Government—and indeed Welsh Government
is interpreted and enforced consistently in both the UK
—Ministers cannot make any provision outwith devolved
and the EU will ensure that citizens are treated fairly
competence. However, there is no equivalent provision
and equally. Clause 5, in its presented form, is vital to
in clause 3 saying that the British Government cannot
the UK’s implementation of the withdrawal agreement,
not use the powers to make regulations about devolved
and it must therefore stand part of the Bill.
matters. If this is just technical, as the Secretary of State
says, why will he not agree to include a similar qualification Turning to clause 6, the UK has reached agreements
in relation to the British Government’s powers? If he with the EEA EFTA states and Switzerland respectively.
will do so, could that perhaps be addressed in the House The agreements are separate from, although similar to,
of Lords? our agreements with the EU. They protect the rights of
Norwegian, Icelandic, Liechtenstein and Swiss citizens
Steve Barclay: That is not something that I would living in the UK and those of UK citizens living in
urge the other place to address, because this is a provision those countries, so that they can continue to live their
to address unforeseen areas in which technical changes lives after exit day broadly as they do now.
may be required in the tightly constrained areas set out
in clause 3. The hon. and learned Lady turns to clause 4, Catherine West: Will the Secretary of State explain in
which confers on the devolved authorities a broadly clear language how he believes that will be played out at
equivalent power to that set out in clause 3. Where airports? Will there be several queues? Will there be one
legislating for the implementation period falls within queue for everybody from European countries? I ask
devolved competences, it is right that legislative changes because many people ask me these questions in my
can be made by the devolved authorities, with which surgery.
I am sure she would agree. Therefore, the change in
clause 4 provides the devolved authorities with Steve Barclay: We will go into more detail on citizens’
corresponding powers to those set out under proposed rights when we discuss the second group of amendments,
new section 8A(1) of the European Union (Withdrawal) but clause 5 secures the legal effect to the protections
Act 2018, as outlined in clause 3, so far as they are that apply to citizens within the EEA EFTA states. One
exercised within the devolved authorities’ competences. of the big questions on the Brexit discussions that we
have heard repeatedly in this place has been, “To what
5.15 pm extent will people’s rights be protected?” This Bill is
Clause 4 enables devolved authorities to add to the doing that for EU nationals through clause 5, and
list of glosses established in proposed new section 1B to clause 6 mirrors those protections in law for citizens of
make provision different from those on that list and to the EEA EFTA states. The hon. Lady touches on the
disapply that list from certain pieces of legislation. The arrangements for citizens’ rights, which are a separate
clause also enables devolved authorities to respond to issue, but this is about how legal protection will apply to
unforeseen complications that may arise during the those nationals.
implementation period to ensure that the provisions Clause 6 gives effect in domestic law to the EEA
established by this Bill continue to give effect to the EFTA and Swiss separation agreements in a similar
planned implementation period. In short, the rationale way to the withdrawal agreement. This ensures that a
for clause 4 is the same as the rationale for clause 3. Norwegian citizen living in the UK can rely on their
When exercised by a devolved authority acting alone, rights in a UK court in broadly the same way as a
the power is subject to the consent of a Minister of the Swedish citizen. It does so in the same way as clause 5.
Crown, consultation with a Minister of the Crown, or a We do not want a Norwegian, Liechtenstein, Icelandic
joint exercise with a Minister of the Crown in certain or Swiss national to have any less certainty on their
circumstances, which are defined in paragraphs 5 to 7 of rights than an EU national here or, indeed, a UK citizen
schedule 2 to the 2018 Act. in Europe. Clause 6 also enshrines the legal certainty for
The implementation period is critical. It will provide businesses and individuals covered by the EEA EFTA
much-needed continuity and certainty to businesses agreement that article 4 of the withdrawal agreement
and individuals as we move from membership of the provides. This clause, as presented, is vital to the UK’s
EU to our future relationship with it. With the power implementation of the EEA EFTA and Swiss agreements,
provided in clause 4, the devolved authorities can ensure and it must stand part of the Bill.
285 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 286
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Steve Barclay] I am conscious that the House is now in a different
place, but many Members will recall that it was often
Clause 33 prohibits the UK from agreeing to an said it was impossible to reach an agreement before,
extension of the implementation period. Page 5 of the indeed, the agreement was reached.
Conservative manifesto says:
“we will not extend the implementation period beyond Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I welcome the
December 2020”, fact that the Government are determined to bring this
and clause 33 says: process to an end by December 2020, and I hope that
“A Minister of the Crown may not agree in the Joint Committee that does concentrate minds in the EU. If the EU and
to an extension of the implementation period.” the Government cannot come to an agreement by then,
It could not be clearer. This Government are determined what are the implications for, first, the future arrangements
to honour our promise to the British people and to get and, secondly, the current withdrawal agreement, especially
Brexit done. the provisions in Northern Ireland?
Both the EU and the UK committed to a deal by the
end of 2020 in the political declaration. Now, with Steve Barclay: First, I believe we can and will do this,
absolute clarity on the timetable to which we are working, and, as I have indicated to the House, so does the EU,
the UK and the EU will be able to get on with it. In because it has committed, in the political declaration, to
sum, clause 33 will ensure that we meet the timetable set doing it. Secondly, a number of issues are addressed
out in the political declaration and deliver on our through this Bill: citizens’ rights, which the hon. Member
manifesto promise. For that reason, the clause must for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) asked about in
stand part of the Bill. relation to her constituents, are protected through this
Bill. People used to talk about a no-deal outcome, and
Chris Bryant: I understand why clause 33 is in the one thing this Bill does is secure the protection of the
Bill. As much as I am a remainer—I remain a remainer, 3 million EU citizens within our country, who are
and I will remain a remainer until my dying day—I valued, and of the more than 1 million UK citizens
none the less accept that the second referendum has there. The right hon. Gentleman has concerns about the
now happened. That is the end of it. Northern Ireland protocol, and I stand ready, as do my
My anxiety, however, was first expressed, in a sense, ministerial colleagues, to continue to discuss issues with
by the previous Prime Minister when she wrote the first him. We will debate that in more detail in Committee
letter of intent with regard to article 50, which stated tomorrow, but, again, the Northern Ireland protocol is
that we would have trouble on security issues if we did secured through the passage of this Bill. That puts us in
not have a full deal by the end of the implementation a very different place from where many of the debates
period. I ask the Government to think very carefully were in the previous Parliament in respect of concerns
about how we ensure that, by the end of this year, we about no deal.
have a security deal covering the whole range of security
issues that face this country. I would argue that that is as Caroline Lucas: I remind the Secretary of State that
important as the trade-related issues. just last month the Commission President said that she
has serious concerns about this timetable. All experts in
Steve Barclay: I welcome the constructive way in trade are concerned that an 11-month period simply
which the hon. Gentleman raises his concerns about does not necessarily give the time to get a good deal
security while recognising the general election mandate done, so why is he signing up now to something he
and how it plays into this clause and its reflection of the could postpone until at least June, when he will have a
manifesto. better sense of how negotiations are going? Why is he
I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to two things. cutting off his nose to spite his face by saying now that
First, the withdrawal agreement commits both sides, he will not extend the implementation period?
including the European Union, to using their best
endeavours to reach agreement. Secondly, the political Steve Barclay: I will move on, because new clauses 4
declaration commits to a timescale of the end of 2020. and 36 speak to the same point, but, in short, this is
That is why we are confident that this can be done to the being done partly for the reasons I have already given
timescale, and it is a reflection of the commitments the House in respect of what is set out in the political
given by both the UK and the EU in the withdrawal declaration, where there is a shared commitment, and
agreement and the political declaration. partly because Members on my side of the House gave a
manifesto commitment to stick to this timetable. I am
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Does sure the hon. Lady would be the first to criticise the
the Secretary of State agree that all things are possible Government if they made a manifesto commitment and
when both parties to a negotiation are willing to proceed then decided not to stand by it. So we are committed to
in good spirit? Indeed, in a briefing to EU politicians in the commitment we gave on the timescale, which is why
November 2019, Michel Barnier said the timescale would we want to move forward with clause 33.
normally be far too short but that Brussels would strive
to have a deal in place by the end of 2020. It is clearly Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)
possible to do this deal for the end of 2020. Does my (PC) rose—
right hon. Friend agree that is the right approach to take?
Steve Barclay: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. Steve Barclay: I will make a little progress and then,
Indeed, the Commission President will be meeting the of course, I will come back to the hon. Gentleman.
Prime Minister tomorrow, and I will be meeting Michel New clauses 4 and 36 stand in the names of the
Barnier, to act on that constructive spirit. Both sides Leader of the Opposition and the acting leader of the
have committed to the timescale. Liberal Democrats respectively. New clause 4 has been
287 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 288
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
tabled by the Leader of the Opposition in an attempt to the debate move forward and therefore want to see this
force the Government to extend the implementation legislation delivered. That is why it is right that we have
period if a deal has not been agreed with the EU by clause 1 and why the new clauses are inappropriate.
15 June. The new clause would also give Parliament a
vote on any such extension. New clause 36 is similar in Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Does my right
effect to new clause 4, but it would do this without hon. Friend agree that the negotiations with the European
having any parliamentary vote. It states that a deal is Union on the free trade agreement will be relatively easy
required on both economic and security matters by on goods, but the negotiations on services will be much
1 June or an extension is mandated as a consequence of more complicated? That is mainly because on goods we
this legislation. The Opposition parties therefore want have a balance of trade deficit with the European
to amend the Bill to force further delay. Union, but on services we have a balance of trade
improvement.
Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): Does
my right hon. Friend agree that it is astounding that so Steve Barclay: I refer back to the remarks I made a
many Opposition Members did not listen to the call in moment ago about this being a win-win for both sides.
the recent general election from the people, who are fed Let me take a portfolio that I used to deal with as a
up with continuous delays and extensions? The message Minister: financial services. It is in the interests of EU
they gave us on the doorstep was to get Brexit done so businesses to be able to access capital at the cheapest
that we can all move on and start talking about other possible price. I see in his place my hon. Friend the
things, such as our NHS, schools and policing. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), who has
expertise in this regard; he knows that the expertise in
Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right to say that a respect of the global markets and the liquidity that
very clear message was reflected in our mandate. To be London offers is of benefit not just to the rest of the
fair to Opposition Members, I should say that I watched world but to colleagues in European businesses. They
the shadow Brexit Secretary on “The Andrew Marr Show” want access to the talent of the constituents of my hon.
and he did accept the need to move on. [Interruption.] I Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman)
am giving credit to him, although I appreciate that he is and many others, which is why it is in both sides’
engaged on other matters in his own party at the moment. interests to reach agreement. That is the discussion that
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that there was a clear the Prime Minister will have with the President of the
desire from the British public to get on to the other Commission tomorrow.
priorities to which he refers.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): For those of
5.30 pm us who have been clear about our opposition to no deal,
the problem with new clause 4 is that in effect it takes
Jonathan Edwards: Is not the danger in setting this away some of the certainty and benefits to business, because
fixed date that the British Government will quickly have it opens up the possibility of an unended extension, and
to make a decision about what they want to achieve in the problem with new clause 36 is that it is anti-democratic.
the second phase of Brexit? Are they going to go for Any colleagues who think that such provisions may
close alignment? If so, they could possibly get the deal need to be in place should recognise that they would
done in the year. But if they decide they are going to undermine the whole purpose of the withdrawal agreement.
disalign, that will create difficulties, and the best we can The best way to stop no deal is to secure a deal.
hope for will be, if not a no-deal cliff edge, a bare-bones
free trade agreement. That could be very bad news for Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I
the economy. know that he engages extensively with the business
community, and what the business community wants is
Steve Barclay: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, the clarity and certainty that the Bill delivers, and it also
we see it as a win-win. The EU wishes to trade with the wants an implementation period that has a clear
UK; we wish to trade with the EU. They are our demarcation in terms of time. That is what the Bill will
neighbours and we want to have a constructive relationship, deliver.
but at the same time people voted for change and they
want to see change. The Government are committed to Several hon. Members rose—
delivering, through the Bill, the change that the British
public voted for. Steve Barclay: I shall give way one further time to the
right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn),
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): Does my right hon. who was the Chair of the Exiting the European Union
Friend agree that it is not only the British people who Committee.
are fed up with seeing Parliament going round and
round in circles on Brexit, which is why they voted for Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): The Secretary of
the Conservative party in the general election? People in State has expressed enormous confidence that a deal
many European countries just want to get on and get will be done by December; may I test that confidence a
past Brexit. They want a trade deal with us; we should little further? Will he give the House an assurance today
agree one quickly and move on. that there is no prospect whatsoever of the UK leaving
without an agreement in December this year?
Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend, who always speaks
with authority as a former Member of the European Steve Barclay: I have set this out very clearly. The
Parliament, is absolutely right to understand that this is right hon. Gentleman will have studied the Bill—he
a desire not just of the British public but of many of always does—and will know exactly what is in clause 33,
our friends and neighbours in Europe, who want to see which is a commitment to stick to the timetable set out
289 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 290
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Steve Barclay] made that position clear, other colleagues have made
that position clear, and I will do so in my remarks.
for the implementation period, which we committed to Government Members should recognise that, although
in our manifesto. I would hope that he, as a democrat, under our electoral system the arithmetic in this place is
would want a Government to adhere to their manifesto. very clear, the majority of the British people voted for
The reality is that, on 12 December, the British public parties that were not of the mind of the Conservative
voted in overwhelming numbers to get Brexit done by manifesto and wanted to give the British public a further
31 January and to conclude the implementation period say. I say that not to deny the reality of the voting in this
by December 2020, so that we can look forward to a place, but to urge Government Members to have some
bright future as an independent nation. Page 5 of our caution about the way that they approach this issue and
manifesto explicitly states that we will negotiate a trade claim authority from the British people.
agreement by next year—one that will strengthen our
union—and that we will not extend the implementation Sir William Cash: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
period beyond December 2020. We are delivering on
these promises that the British people have entrusted us Paul Blomfield: I will of course give way. It is always a
to deliver, and the Opposition are interested only in pleasure.
further delay and disruption. I urge Labour and the
Liberal Democrats not to press new clauses 4 and 36. Sir William Cash: I am most grateful to the hon.
I look forward to hearing from Members across the Gentleman. I just wanted to clarify one thing. Labour
House as we take the Bill through Committee. This Front Benchers and the whole Labour party—with few
Government are committed to delivering Brexit, and exceptions, if any—voted against the repeal of the
this Bill will enable us to do so. European Communities Act 1972. First, does he confirm
that that was the case—I do not think that he can deny
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Roger Gale): it? Secondly, does that not make it clear that, back in
Order. I should probably have indicated for the benefit 2018 when that Act received Royal Assent, they were
of new Members, and will indicate now, that clause 33 refusing to accept the will of the British people and
will not be decided today. Although it is grouped with were against repealing the 1972 Act?
these amendments, it will be taken as a Committee of
the Whole House decision tomorrow and may or may Paul Blomfield: I am always happy to confirm what is
not be divided on. To make that clear, it will not be that on the public record, but I would say that the Opposition
we have forgotten it. were clear; we campaigned to remain in the European
Union because we believed that it was the right thing
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Thank you for our country and for the continent that we share with
very much, Sir Roger. It is a pleasure to rise to speak to the other members of the EU, but we accepted the
new clause 4 primarily and to have the opportunity to outcome of the referendum and voted to trigger article
correct the misrepresentation by the Secretary of State 50. We believe that there would have been the possibility
of our objectives in tabling it. It is also a pleasure to do both of winning an overwhelming majority in this
so with you in the Chair, Sir Roger. I want to take this House and of uniting the British people around a
opportunity to thank you and indeed all the Clerks for departure from the European Union that reflected the
the work that has been done to ensure that we are able 52:48 vote of a divided country in 2016—a decision that
to debate the issues in the Bill today. Much of that work would have taken us out of the European Union while
was done over the recess when other people were enjoying remaining close to it, aligned with the single market, in
the break. a customs union, and continuing to be part of the
I have to say how much we regret that the Government agencies and partnerships that we have built together
have provided so little time to debate a considerable over 46 years. That sort of deal was available and it was
number of amendments, all tabled because they will Government Members who denied it.
have profound consequences for our country for generations We voted against the Bill on Second Reading because
to come. Our proposals over the next two days echo the we believe that the withdrawal agreement is a bad deal
concerns expressed in the previous Parliament and reflect for the UK, just as we voted against previous withdrawal
the approach that has guided us as an Opposition over agreements. When Government Members point fingers,
the past four difficult and divisive years. it is worth remembering that we were not alone in that.
Albeit for very different reasons, many Government
Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) Members, including the Prime Minister, voted more
(Con): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving than once against getting Brexit done—on the terms of
way. He talks about the principles that have guided him. the previous Prime Minister’s deal and for his own
Surely they are the principles that have misguided him reasons.
and his party. Does he not understand that the political
landscape has changed as a result of the general election? Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): I appreciate the
As the Secretary of State said, people want to get Brexit sentiment in my hon. Friend’s speech and the way in
done. They do not want further delay, which is all that which he describes the events of the past few years.
his new clause and new clause 36 would bring. Does he agree that our duty now, as a responsible
Opposition, is to make these very points and to point
Paul Blomfield: I had hoped for a better initial out to the Government—however large their majority—
intervention. We are very clear that we accept that the issues of substance on which we disagree and where the
general election has changed the landscape. The shadow interests of the United Kingdom are not being pursued
Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union has effectively by the Government?
291 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 292
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Paul Blomfield: I very much agree. There needs to be The future relationship is the concern behind new
a voice for the approaching 55% of people in this clause 4, because we have consistently sought to oppose
country who were uncomfortable with the direction any proposals that risk damaging people’s jobs and
offered by the Conservative party manifesto. Although livelihoods. That is why we voted against the deal proposed
the result of the general election was clear, it does not by the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member
mean that the Government can proceed without question, for Maidenhead (Mrs May): the current Prime Minister
challenge or scrutiny. That is the point of many of our may have voted against her for different reasons. It is
amendments. why we also voted against the deal proposed by the
current Prime Minister in the last Parliament.
Catherine West: My hon. Friend is making an excellent
speech, the tone of which is just right. May I press the Since its introduction in October, this Bill has only
wider question around scrutiny? We will shortly have no got worse—in our view, much worse. It grants expansive
Exiting the European Union Committee and I am not powers to Ministers and severely diminishes any role for
sure when the Select Committees will return. There is a Parliament in the crucial period ahead. It removes our
lot of detail and, having sat on the International Trade role in approving the Government’s negotiating mandate
Committee, I know that a lot of mistakes can be made and voting on the final treaty. Protections for workers’
at the beginning of the process when it comes to having rights have been ditched, confirming that the TUC was
a forward-looking trade deal. I fear that rushing into it right to dismiss previous Government promises as
like this—not allowing Parliament much time to debate “meaningless procedural tricks”. The new Northern
the principles at the beginning and giving the Government Ireland protocol undermines the UK’s internal market—
a tiny implementation period—could lead to a much something that the Prime Minister had promised his
worse outcome than if we were to take a little time to be former allies faithfully that he was committed to protecting.
more thoughtful and give Parliament a genuine role in Shamefully, the Government have removed the requirement
the new arrangements. to negotiate an agreement with the EU on unaccompanied
children seeking asylum.
Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend is right to focus on The Government have not only removed any role
the issue. The Government have seemed reluctant to for Parliament in deciding whether to extend the
embrace the idea of scrutiny and accountability since implementation period but are now specifically prohibiting
October in so very many ways. I hope they will think Ministers from agreeing an extension through clause 33,
seriously and quite genuinely over the period ahead to as the Secretary of State pointed out. So no deal is back
ensure that there is a proper opportunity for this House on the table, as I think he confirmed in his response to
to question and debate the direction of travel. my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central
John Redwood: I am glad that we have this opportunity (Hilary Benn). It is that risk that new clause 4 attempts
for the Opposition to make their points, but can they to address. We do not plan to press it to a vote this
not see that trying to take away the proposition that we evening, but it is intended to provide an opportunity for
leave at the end of the year, come what may, completely the Government to come back to this House with their
undermines the British negotiating position? Every time proposals, perhaps on Report, on how we avoid the
they have tabled an amendment over the past three and catastrophe of no deal at the end of this year.
a half years, it has always been to do Britain down and It is a reflection of the unfortunately polarised discourse
leave us in a weak position. on Brexit, reflected in some of the comments earlier,
that new clause 4 was described in some sections of the
Paul Blomfield: The right hon. Gentleman and I have media at the end of last week as an
had previous exchanges about comments that he might “attempt to delay leaving the EU by two years”.
have made about doing Britain down. The position we
have taken is that possibly it is not always the best idea It is no such thing. We recognise, as I said, that the
to jump off a cliff—that if we find ourselves in a general election result means that we are leaving the
position where we are, for the sake of weeks or months, European Union on 31 January, but what happens
unable to secure a deal that is in the interests of the thereafter is crucial to our economy, to jobs and to
British economy, the sensible thing to do is to give people’s livelihoods, whether they voted leave or voted
ourselves a little bit of flexibility. He may think otherwise, remain.
but that is not our view.
Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): The hon. Gentleman
5.45 pm says that he recognises the decision that the electorate
took last month, but does he not accept that there was a
Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that
very clear mandate to conclude the implementation
for many people listening to the argument he is making,
period by the end of this year, which was clearly in the
this is not a case of a fear of jumping over the cliff but
Conservative manifesto—the manifesto of the party
more a fear that those opposed to leaving the EU want
that has clearly been elected with a significant majority
us to have our feet firmly stuck in the mud of the EU for
in this House?
ever, and that is the reason he wants a further extension?
Paul Blomfield: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for Paul Blomfield: I am not sure whether the hon.
that intervention, because it gives me the opportunity to Gentleman was listening to the point that I made earlier.
say that that is absolutely not the case. We accept that I am very clear on the electoral arithmetic, but he should
we are leaving the European Union in three weeks’ also be clear that there is significant concern among the
time—end of—but that is not the end of Brexit because British people—represented by almost 55% of those
we will have considerable discussion in this place, and who cast their vote in the general election—about the
the Government will be involved in negotiations for some future direction, and there is no mandate for leaving the
time to come, on the future relationship. European Union without a deal.
293 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 294
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Stephen Hammond: I do not think that anyone can Paul Blomfield: I thank the hon. Member for that
doubt my credentials as someone who is concerned intervention, and I agree with him.
about and opposed to no deal, but the hon. Member’s
remarks would have greater validity if new clause 4 Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op):
allowed for the potential of a very short extension Does my hon. Friend agree that we only need to look at
necessary for the conclusion of a future relationship, as the North American Free Trade Agreement renegotiation
I think he was beginning to say, rather than a completely —a negotiation on the basis of a trade deal that has
open-ended extension, which is unsurprisingly being taken almost two years and still is not fully completed—to
described as an extension to Brexit. If he had wanted to get an answer about how long it takes to negotiate a
stop no deal, he should have voted for a deal, and he trade deal when one already exists and economies are
should do that now. already partly aligned?

Paul Blomfield: I thank my hon. Friend for his

Paul Blomfield: I do not question the hon. Member’s intervention; he is right. I fear that the Government
credentials in terms of his concern about our leaving platitudes about the ease of negotiating this deal skirt
without a deal, but I ask him to look carefully at new over the real challenges that will be faced and the need
clause 4. The framing of the new clause in relation to for some flexibility and provision to avoid the cliff edge.
two years builds on the provisions of the withdrawal
agreement to which the Government have signed up but Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con):
includes the capacity for a much shorter transitional Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
period if the Government are successful in concluding a
deal or if this House agrees. Our proposal very much Paul Blomfield: I have been fairly generous in giving
addresses the point that he makes. I will come to that in away. I will make some progress and then take further
more detail, and he might want to intervene again. interventions.
It was because of the risks of a disorderly departure Under the provisions of the withdrawal agreement,
that we were first to argue—it seems like a very long as the Secretary of State pointed out, any extension to
time ago now—for a transition period, which at that the transition period must be agreed by 1 July 2020,
stage the Government opposed. We were raising the only five months after negotiations have begun. I fully
voice of business and of the trade unions, and we were accept that we might be completely wrong in our concerns.
pleased when the Government accepted that principle, The Government might be able to negotiate a best-in-class
although they saved face by renaming it an implementation free trade agreement within 11 months. If that is the
period. When the end of the transition was originally case and they are able to secure a deal, there will be no
set for December 2020, it was on the assumption that extension under the provisions of our new clause, so
we would have left the EU on 29 March last year, what are they worried about? If the Government are
leaving 21 months—[Interruption.] The Under-Secretary confident—[Interruption.] The Secretary of State is
of State for Exiting the European Union asks, “Why finding this funny, but if the Government are confident
didn’t we?” He could ask that of a number of his in their ability to agree a comprehensive future relationship
colleagues, including the Prime Minister. That would with the European Union, I hope that they will have no
have left 21 months to negotiate our new relationships problem in returning to the House with proposals along
on trade and, as my hon. Friend the Member for the lines of those outlined in new clause 4.
Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out, on security in
particular. Twenty-one months was seen as ambitious. Daniel Kawczynski: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
Many in the Government sitting around the Cabinet for giving way. When he says that it is a race to the
table doubted its deliverability. That is why there was a bottom, surely he is showing his own prejudice, in the
provision to extend it. But now there is only 11 months, sense that he does not want the United Kingdom to
and in trade negotiation terms 11 months is unbelievably devolve itself of any unnecessary regulations that have
short. been imposed on this country over the last 47 years.
The Government say that they want an ambitious,
best-in-class free trade agreement. They talk about CETA Paul Blomfield: I was quite involved in the debate
as a model, but not about the time taken to negotiate during the referendum, and I listened carefully to what
CETA, of which they are well aware. They say that it many of the Government Members who were advocating
will be easy to negotiate, because we start from the our departure were saying. They talked about a bonfire
unique position in trade talks of existing alignment; the of regulations. The direction of travel for leaving the
right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) is European Union was fairly clear: it is to free ourselves
nodding. But it is the Government’s objective to diverge of those rights and protections that defend working
from that alignment, to seek a deal that allows the UK people, protect the environment and protect consumers
to race to the bottom, undercutting the EU on obligations and to create a different sort of economic model. The
and regulations and stepping off the level playing field. hon. Member may not agree with my description, but I
That will be uniquely difficult to negotiate, and any deal think that a “race to the bottom” summarises that
secured in 11 months is highly likely not to be a good pretty well.
deal for the UK. Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Member asks what the
problem is with new clause 4, because if we have done a
Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Member is making an deal by the end of 2020, we will leave anyway. The point
important point. Essentially, this will be the first trade is that if we are not allowed to delay, the imperative on
deal in history where the aim is to put up barriers rather both sides of the negotiating table is to get this done by
than remove them. Rather than this being an easy the end of 2020. If we allow it to be extended for another
process, is it not likely to be convoluted and difficult? two years, the negotiations are bound to take longer.
295 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 296
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Why can he not approach these negotiations with John Redwood: I rise particularly to support clause 33.
confidence? The Government are confident that they I think it is essential that we are finally out of the EU in
can do it within the period. Michel Barnier, whom I every proper way by the end of this year. Some three
quoted earlier, seems confident that it can be done. Why and a half years have passed since the British people
can his party not approach the negotiations in that made their decision that they wished to leave. Many of
spirit? us voted to leave because we think the world is going to
be better once we have left. We do not regard it as some
Paul Blomfield: If the Government were so confident, kind of disease or problem that has to be managed; we
why did they build into the withdrawal agreement the see it as full of opportunities. We want to rebuild our
provision to be able to extend? It was a cautious insurance fishing industry under British regulations and British
policy. They were right to do so. We are trying to help control. We wish to get all our money back and to spend
them with the problems that they are creating for themselves it on our priorities in health and education. We wish to
now. make sure that we can make the laws we wish, and which
Many Government Members know that there is a the people recommend to us in elections and in the normal
potential for us not to have secured the sort of deal that dialogue between constituents and Members of Parliament.
this country needs by the end of December. If, unamended, We are extremely optimistic about our opportunities as
this Bill forces the country into a no-deal crash-out—which a leader of free trade worldwide once we have regained
was described, for example, by Make UK, the voice of our full vote and voice in the World Trade Organisation
the manufacturing sector, as “the height of economic and are able to do our own deals with all those parts of
lunacy”—the Government will regret not having taken the world that the EU has not got round to doing deals
the opportunity to make some provisions along the with all the time we have been a member.
lines of new clause 4, which protects the UK from the We are very optimistic. We think we are going to
entirely unnecessary threat of no deal. It simply builds be better off economically. I have always said that,
on the mechanism for extending the transition period and anyone who suggests otherwise is deliberately
that is already baked into the Government’s own withdrawal misrepresenting my position. I share the frustration of
agreement; it is oven ready, as the Prime Minister would many leave voters that three and a half years on and
like to say. For the same reasons, we do not accept the with a new Parliament with a very clear mandate we are
insertion of clause 33, which is grandstanding nonsense still facing demands that we are going too quickly and
that prohibits Ministers from agreeing to an extension that three and a half years plus another year—four and
to the transition period. a half years—is still not long enough, and why not six
Let me be absolutely clear again: we are not seeking and a half years?
to delay Brexit—the UK will have left the EU in three Daniel Kawczynski: Does my right hon. Friend agree
weeks’ time—nor do we want to stay in the transition that, unlike the Opposition spokesman, who seems
period any longer than is necessary, but the flexibility to paint a very gloomy picture about our moving away
that we are proposing provides the certainty that business from European regulations, this Parliament and this
needs. There is no point in replacing the previous cliff country are perfectly capable of regulating our own
edge, about which the hon. Member for Wimbledon domestic affairs, and protecting the environment and
(Stephen Hammond) expressed real concern, with the workers’ rights in the British way, without always
new cliff edge if the flexibility that we are suggesting is acquiescing to EU laws?
not there.
John Redwood: I, in particular, think we can do a lot
6 pm better on taxation. I do not want tax on all these green
products that the EU makes us tax. I would not have
Bob Blackman: The hon. Gentleman is making a very thought that the Green party really wanted those. However,
good case about why the Opposition are putting this I suspect that if I or others moved amendments to the
forward, but will he explain why the date of 15 June 2020 forthcoming Budget this March to take out those
is included? Why is it not 15 September or 15 October, unnecessary taxes, we would be told we are still not
or later in 2020, as one of the conditions that would allowed to because we are in the implementation period
force a vote in this House on applying for an extension? and have to accept European law. It has also interfered
If he is serious about this, that date should be put in our corporate taxes in a way that actually reduces the
back much nearer the end of the negotiations, when we revenues we gain from big business. I would have thought
will be more certain about how the Government are Labour and the Liberal Democrats rather oppose that,
proceeding. but because it comes from the EU, they are completely
quiet on the subject. They do not seem to mind that the
Paul Blomfield: I would not actually disagree with the EU interferes with our revenue raising.
point the hon. Gentleman makes. The date that we have
included in new clause 4 is determined by the Government. Michael Tomlinson: Is my right hon. Friend surprised,
The position of requiring some flexibility, let us remember, as I am, that the official Opposition and the Liberal
reflects the Government’s previous view. In the last Democrats, with their new clauses, are seeking yet further
version of this Bill, published in October, the Government delays? Despite what the hon. Member for Sheffield
accepted the principle that the transition period could Central (Paul Blomfield) says, that is the effect of new
be extended. That was the Government’s view—this clause 4. It would mean a lack of the certainty that the
Government. It was also the Government’s view that British people voted for at the recent general election.
Parliament should have a role in that process—the
current Prime Minister. It was right then; it is right now; John Redwood: I do think it is almost unbelievable
and I look forward to proposals from the Government that the Opposition are talking about adding to four
on Report to address these concerns. and a half years of delay, under the Government model
297 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 298
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[John Redwood] I would be very optimistic about the negotiations, but
I am quite conscious that if we negotiate as, unfortunately,
now, another two years—six and a half years. Six and a the previous Government did before the change of
half years at £12 billion a year is a huge sum, and I leadership and the general election, we will end up
would like to tease this out a bit more with those on our making more concessions to get something that the EU
Front Bench because I think my right hon. Friend the has already promised in the political declaration. I do
Secretary of State misunderstood me. He thought I not want the fish at risk, and I do not want the money at
was talking about the cost to business, but I am risk. I do want to take full control of the money, the
talking about the cost to British taxpayers. This extra fish, the law making and the taxes from the beginning of
implementation period in itself—I really rather regret it, next year, as we are promised by this Bill, and clause 33
but I see it is a necessity from where we currently are, is a very important part of trying to deliver that.
given the forces in this House—must be costing £11 billion I wish the Government every success. I am optimistic
or £12 billion, in tax revenue forgone, that we have to on their behalf because of the promises the EU has
pay. made. My message to the EU is: “Do not underestimate
I would like some reassurance from Front Benchers the British people. You may have been right to believe
that once we are properly out at the end of December, that many of their political representatives in the last
under clause 33, there will not be further bills. I want us Parliament were on the EU’s side, not on the UK’s side,
to be able to say to the British people, “We now do but the British people are altogether a more serious
control our own money. We are not going to carry on proposition, and the British people have spoken loud
paying for this show.” I think it might be quite a good and clear.” The British people have had enough of the
negotiating tactic to suggest to the EU that perhaps delay, enough of the dither, enough of the concessions
there is not a strong legal basis for some of the claims it and enough of the idea that Brexit is a problem. We
wishes to make, because we need to put some countervailing believe in Brexit; we want the freedoms; and we want to
pressure on the EU during this remaining negotiation choose our own taxes, our own laws and to spend our
period on the free trade agreement. I do not think we own money. Bring it on—the sooner, the better.
have to pay for a free trade agreement. I think it is
massively in the interests of the rest of the European Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): The
Union, because it sells us more than we sell it, but we Prime Minister and some members of the Conservative
have to be firm, otherwise it will walk all over us again party call on everyone to “move on” from Brexit. It is as
and demand more concessions. if he expects those of us who see the disadvantages
of leaving the EU simply to put our brain in a box
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Is not and forget about the impacts on our constituents and
the lesson of the prolonged, tortuous seven years of communities. He expects us not to speak up for the
negotiation on the Canadian deal the very fact that it colleagues, friends and, in my case, loved ones who have
was an open-ended process that did not come to an come here from the EU, made their home here and
end? The effect of new clause 4 is basically to ensure, in improved our society. He expects us not to mourn our
providing for an extension, that it makes that extension loss of EU citizenship and to be silent about the damage
certain, because the knowledge that the extension can to healthcare, manufacturing, the food and drink industry,
take place will take away the very pressure to make an farming, and even fishing—yes, fishing, that oft-quoted
agreement within the time that is available. supposed beneficiary of Brexit.
The trouble is that the Prime Minister thinks there is
John Redwood: Those of us who have had to study only one fishing industry, and one Scottish fishing
European Union affairs for all too long, because they industry, and he completely ignores inshore fishing,
affect our own country so much, have learned from such as that in my constituency on the west coast of
bitter experience that deals nearly always happen at the Scotland. Eighty-five per cent. of that catch goes to the
last minute under artificial or genuine deadlines that the EU, but with extra bureaucracy, delays and the threat of
EU has often imposed on itself. All we are trying to do, tariffs, the industry will struggle to compete with Northern
in supporting a Government in doing this, is to say to Irish fishermen, who share the same waters but will land
the EU that there is a deadline on this negotiation: their catch directly into the single market. To save their
“If you, O EU, really want a free trade deal with us, as boats, some fishermen have even mooted registering
you have said you do in the partnership agreement, them in Northern Ireland, but that would destroy the
hurry now while stocks last.” It is not all about us; it is viability of our fishing harbours, fish markets and
about the EU as well. It needs this free trade agreement, onshore processing. It is certainly not a “sea of opportunity”
and we need to keep the pressure up. Let us tell it that for coastal communities.
there needs to be significant progress by the middle of Despite his hollow demand to “let the healing begin”,
this year so that it is realistic to finalise the text. the Prime Minister has produced a worse deal than his
I do think it should be relatively straightforward, if predecessor. Like her, he made no attempt to seek common
there is good will on the EU side as well as on our own ground across the Chamber, or across the nations of the
side, because we have been party to its international UK, and he ignored the Scottish Government’s compromise
negotiations. If we take the best of the Japanese deal of enabling both Northern Ireland and Scotland to stay
and the best of the Canadian deal—it is already there in inside the single market and customs union, which
text—it should be relatively easy to say that we can at would have respected the fact that both nations voted to
least have that. The EU has already offered that to remain in the EU. Even the supposed triumph of the
non-members of the European Union, and we should Northern Ireland protocol is sketched on the back of a
be able to add a bit more because by being a member we fag packet, with almost everything left for the Joint
already have agreements to things that are in our mutual Committee to work out and enact through sweeping
interest to continue. and unlimited delegated powers.
299 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 300
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
The changes made to the October version of the are the Government planning to take the UK off a cliff
European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill set the without a parachute; they are actively removing the
tone for what we can expect from this Government in safety net at the bottom.
future. The deletion of clause 34 and schedule 4 removes
If the Opposition had pushed for new clause 4, we
the protection of workers’ rights from this legally binding
would have supported it. Brexit will harm the health
treaty, while clause 37 abandons the commitment to
and wellbeing of ordinary people across the UK, and
family reunification for unaccompanied child refugees.
while the Prime Minister may have won the election in
Particularly concerning are the Government’s plans for
England, he did not win it in any of the devolved
a ridiculously short transition period of only 11 months—
nations. Indeed, by specifically standing on a ticket of
despite the former Prime Minister taking two and a half
denying Scotland a choice on her future, he lost more
years just to get the withdrawal agreement. The Tory
than half his Scottish MPs. At the ballot box last
manifesto revealed the Government’s aim of changing
month, three-quarters of Scottish voters rejected this
the balance between Government, Parliament and the
Prime Minister, rejected his party and rejected his deal.
courts, and in this Bill we see that begin. There is little
He has no mandate to inflict his disastrous Brexit on
input for the devolved Governments, despite the impact
Scotland, and we will not support the Bill.
that Brexit will have on their devolved policies. This
debate has been limited to just three days in the House
of Commons, as opposed to 30 days to debate the Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): Thank you, Sir Roger,
treaties of Rome or Maastricht. for allowing me to speak in this important debate. It is a
We hear much about sovereignty as an argument for pleasure to be back in Parliament with a new mandate,
Brexit. The rather pointless clause 36 simply restates following the general election. I spoke about the withdrawal
parliamentary sovereignty, yet clauses 5 and 6 give agreement in the previous Session, and I am happy to
the withdrawal agreement supremacy over all domestic add my voice again to this debate. I will keep my
UK law. This Bill is not “getting Brexit done”; it is the comments brief, but I wish to add my support for the
beginning of the beginning. The former Prime Minister Government’s approach.
tried to have her cake and eat it, while painting herself
into a corner with her own red lines. This Prime Minister As the Secretary of State set out, it is important to
clearly does not care if he only manages a few crumbs have an implementation period. Redditch is a centre of
of a basic, bare-bones trade deal, and the loss of 50-plus business and has many small and medium-sized enterprises.
EU free trade deals with other countries in the world. Although they had mixed views on the referendum,
Such is the obsession with a short transition—there is most businesses, citizens and voters now conclude that
certainly no more talk of frictionless trade! it is more damaging to be constantly in a cycle of
extension and delay to Brexit than to do what the
The long wish list of aspirations in the political Government are now doing by setting out a clear timeline
declaration is way beyond a trade deal; it is the future to follow. Once this Bill has passed, we will have that
relationship with the EU. The political declaration makes certainty, and from my experience before I came to
it clear that the more the UK diverges, the less there will Parliament of running a small business for nearly 30 years
be on the table, and the outcome of that will affect the —yes, I do look that old—[HON. MEMBERS: “No! No!]
wellbeing of people in all our constituencies. By deleting Thank you, thank you. I will pay you all later. What
clause 31, and by removing parliamentary oversight of people need to run their business is certainty, which is
negotiations on the future relationship, MPs are losing what the Bill will provide. It means that we know where
the ability to influence the terms of that relationship on we are going, and when businesses know that, they can
behalf of our constituents and local industries. We are do what they do best and prepare for the situation in
also losing the possibility of scrutinising the Government’s which they find themselves. This is definitely the right
proposals and holding them to account on their progress. way forward.
This is a blind Brexit. As others have said, we are
expected to jump off a cliff at the end of this month, Let me address the comments made by Opposition
and we are meant just to trust that somehow the Members about new clause 4, which seeks to introduce
Government will knit a parachute on the way down. an extension to the implementation period. I do not
support that approach as I think it is a rerun of the
previous Parliament, and we all saw how damaging that
6.15 pm was, not only for this Parliament but for our reputation
Clauses 1 to 4 are to ensure that EU and EU-derived in the country. Voters were looking at us and wondering
law functions during the standstill transition, by keeping what we were doing and why we were not implementing
modified parts of the European Communities Act 1972 the clear instructions that they gave us in the historic
in force, along with the sweeping use of delegated referendum of 2016. Again, no matter how they voted—
powers. No end date is set in any of the clauses, with whether they voted to leave or remain—there was a
references only to “implementation period completion simple principle of democracy at stake. Voters said to
day”. Clause 33 later forbids any extension to the transition us, “We have given you those instructions.” It may not
period, which means that we still face a no-deal crash-out have been what I, as an individual, wanted to happen,
at the end of this year, thus continuing business uncertainty, but that was the overwhelming democratic result of the
discouraging investment, and keeping the brakes on the country. They said, “We expect you, as politicians and
UK economy. A Government do not need to legislate parliamentarians, to implement it.” We did not do that
for their own actions, so that is clearly a stunt to keep and it was a very damaging situation that eroded trust
hard Brexiteers and no-deal disaster capitalists on in us as politicians. Anyone who has been out on the
board—or do the Prime Minister’s colleagues perhaps doorstep, not only in their own constituency but in
not trust him to keep to his “die in a ditch” commitments others, knows that that is what the public are saying
yet again? This is a bizarre act of self-harm, as not only to us.
301 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 302
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Daniel Kawczynski: The Labour party has made a by the agreement? What is being done to alleviate the
great deal of wanting to hold us to account over the concern of Unionists in this House about an agreement
transition period and any possible extensions, so is my that basically puts us outside of the rest of the United
hon. Friend surprised that there is only one Labour Kingdom and under the control of the EU? How can
Back Bencher in this debate, bearing in mind the importance that be right? Does the hon. Lady respect and understand—
Labour Members attach to this issue?
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Roger Gale):
Rachel Maclean: My hon. Friend makes a very good Order. I think this is the moment when the Chair has to
point. We see this time and again from the Opposition. intervene just a little. I have given a lot of slack during
They are constantly crying out that they need more time the course of the afternoon. The hon. Gentleman is
for scrutiny, yet when we have the time there is a sea of fully aware that a greater part of tomorrow will be
empty Benches. We have seen that so many times. This devoted to matters relating to Northern Ireland and I
is not the first time. We do not even have the shadow do not wish to stray too far into matters that will be
Brexit Secretary here. There is a lack of interest. I debated tomorrow. We have a minimum of four hours
honestly think that it would not matter how much time to debate a lot of clauses later this evening. If the hon.
we gave them; they still would not want us to actually Lady is able to win some time for the House, and if
honour the will of the British people. I am afraid it is a other hon. Members are able to do so, we might manage
fig leaf. to spend more time debating issues that I suspect a lot
of people wish to discuss.
Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con):
Does my hon. Friend agree that part of the problem Rachel Maclean: Thank you for guidance, Sir Roger.
with what the Opposition propose is not just their lack I will adhere to it and conclude my remarks by saying
of attention in coming to the Chamber, but their lack of that I thoroughly support the Government. I support
attention to detail in what they propose? On new clause 4, clause 33, which has to be in the Bill. It is an excellent
they talk about the need to bring authority back to Bill and I look forward to it passing tonight.
Parliament, but does she agree that what it actually says
is that only a two-year extension could be proposed by Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD):
the Government in this country—[Interruption.] That I am mindful of your strictures with regard to time,
is exactly what it says. And that only the European Sir Roger. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central
Union could put a shorter extension on the table. It (Paul Blomfield) said during his opening remarks that
does not give Parliament the authority to suggest a he did not intend to press new clause 4 to a Division. If
shorter extension at all. it assists the Committee, I can indicate that it is not my
intention to press new clause 36, which stands in my
Rachel Maclean: I thank my right hon. and learned name and in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends.
Friend for that point. I expect nothing less from his I do, however, wish to speak to those. Before I do so, I
forensic attention to detail. He highlights the inconsistency would like to pick up on the points made by the hon.
at the heart of the Opposition’s arguments. It reminds and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna
me of some of the amendments we had in the previous Cherry) to the Secretary of State with regard to the
Parliament, when the Opposition wanted to us to give powers given to the United Kingdom Government and
away our control about the process of leaving the European to the Scottish Government and other devolved
Union. That was constantly the approach they forced Administrations.
on the Government. That has actually ended up very I found the Secretary of State’s explanation to be a
well for us, because we now have a strong governing little less than clear and somewhat less than convincing.
majority. In proposed new paragraph 11B in clause 4, relating to
The response I have had from my constituents in the powers of the Scottish Parliament, he will see that
Redditch since I have been fortunate enough to be the devolved Administrations have no power to legislate
returned to this place, and since I have been out and outside their devolved competences. It is of course in
about on my travels speaking to them, is that people are the nature of devolution that the Administrations have
just so happy that we can finally get this process concluded. no power, so I suggest to the Secretary of State that the
I agree with the Opposition that we all need to now inclusion of that provision is at the very least somewhat
reach out across the House. We need to put the divisions otiose. He would have to come up with a better explanation
behind us. I do not want to stand in this place and come than he did to the hon. and learned Lady as to why it is
across in a way that is taken to be—I am struggling to necessary to have, or not to have, a similar provision
find the right word. What I want to say is that I want to with regard to the powers of this House.
find common ground. I think there is now common The Secretary of State talked in his opening remarks
ground between the Government and the Opposition. about the commitment in the Conservative party manifesto,
We want to come together. There is a recognition that in respect of which it now has a handsome majority in
different positions were taken by voters, but we need to this House. He was quite right to put that before the
come together in the interests not only of Parliament, Committee, and it is perfectly legitimate that the
but the country and all our constituents. Government should do so. However, I would suggest
that he took it one step further than was sensible when
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am very respectful he suggested that clause 33 was necessary for the
of the hon. Lady’s position and the position of others Government to meet their manifesto obligations. Whether
in this House. However, when she refers to coming or not a Government meet their manifesto obligations
together, does she understand that we on the Unionist is essentially a matter of politics, not law, and for the
side of the House feel greatly threatened and disadvantaged Secretary of State to suggest it is necessary to have a
303 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 304
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
clause of this sort to meet their manifesto obligations is I understand the concerns about a no-deal situation at
something of an overstatement. It would be possible for the end of 2020—I am very concerned about that,
them to meet their manifesto obligations without recourse too—but we must follow the golden rules in a negotiation.
to clause 33. I have negotiated many things in my life, although
As other Members have pointed out, it is perfectly clearly not something as large as leaving the European
legitimate—we are entitled to do so—for those of us on Union—but who has? However, there have been some
the Opposition Benches, and I suspect a number of the things that would have had a much bigger direct impact
better-informed Government Members, to point out on my life, certainly in terms of business negotiations.
that the previous implementation agreement reached by Some of those have been life-changing and, particularly
the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for in negotiations with our banks, pretty much life-threatening.
Maidenhead (Mrs May), was for 21 months. At that The golden rule in any negotiation is that a person has
point, we thought that was exceptionally ambitious, but to walk into them with confidence. That is absolutely
now we find that it can all be done in 11 months. I have how we have to undertake the negotiations. Of course,
been a Member of this House for over 18 and a half as the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland
years. You learn a thing or two in that time, Sir Roger. (Mr Carmichael) said, there are some downsides to
You know that, because you have been here even longer these negotiations. It is therefore even more important
than me. One of the things we learn is to take assurances to walk into them with confidence. We must believe that
of that sort with a measure of some scepticism when we we can do this deal.
hear them from those on the Treasury Bench, whichever
party is in government. That is why I think this is Mr Carmichael: The provision for an extension to be
perfectly legitimate. concluded by 1 July was in the withdrawal agreement
We have heard the assurances given by those on the that the Prime Minister negotiated. Did he do that
Treasury Bench tonight. They may be right, in which because he lacked confidence?
case we will have an agreement concluded by the end of
this year, but if they are not, those assurances will stand Kevin Hollinrake: We are in a different situation. I am
on the record, and the Minister and his colleagues will still involved in my business; it has grown a lot over the
have to be accountable for them. I suspect that we now last 26 or 27 years, and I have concerns about the
have a choice between close alignment, because that will impact on it of the wrong kind of exit from the European
be all that is possible in the 11-month negotiation Union. However, I still think it is absolutely right to set
period, and no deal. It will be interesting to see whether the deadline of the end of 2020 to do this deal. In our
the unity that has been present behind the Secretary of manifesto and all the statements in the general election,
State on the Government Benches today is maintained it is true that we said that we would do this deal by the
after that point. end of 2020 and that we would be out completely by
then. It would be wrong and a breach of the trust that
6.30 pm the people had in us in the general election for us now to
The Secretary of State and his colleagues have been say that there could be a further extension.
candid in saying that no deal is still very much on the
table, in the event that they do not have a deal concluded Michael Tomlinson: My hon. Friend is absolutely
at the end of this year. It is worth remembering the right about confidence, but does he agree—he has alluded
extent of the implications of no deal. We have focused to this—that it is not just confidence, but a firm deadline
almost exclusively on the execution of a trade deal this that is required, rather than a flextension or the risk of
evening. As the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) a further extension or postponement? We saw that in
reminded us, intelligence and security co-operation is the last two Parliaments. That fundamental error, which
also at risk, and the consequences of failing to get that was made by previous Administrations, will not be
right would go well beyond monetary and commercial made by this one.
considerations.
I am also concerned about the third issue that would Kevin Hollinrake: My hon. Friend is absolutely right.
come into play in a no-deal Brexit: the position of The date is the imperative that makes sure that both
Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. The sides will be looking towards that date to finalise
Union of the United Kingdom can be broken up by any negotiations. There are incentives and imperatives on
one of its four constituent parts. If we end up with a both sides of the negotiating table. If there is the right
no-deal Brexit, we force Northern Ireland into a situation spirit of negotiation between the two parties, and we
that is different legally and in regulatory terms from undertake the negotiations in that frame of mind,
that which pertains in the rest of the United Kingdom. we will absolutely be able to do this deal. However, if we
Once that wedge is inserted, we will never see it removed. provide the opportunity for an extension, we hand over
the advantage in the negotiation to the other side. That
I do not intend to press new clause 36 to a Division. is the absolute reality. We cannot do that, nor do we
We have heard the bold and ambitious assertions from need to.
those on the Treasury Bench. Time will tell whether
they are right, but if they are wrong, the Secretary of There are a number of reasons to think that we can
State’s words are on the record and, believe me, they will do the deal within the timescale. We start from a position
come back to haunt him. of total alignment, which is bound to help. This is
different from a normal free trade agreement, in terms
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I will of the negotiations. Clearly, there have to be negotiations
keep my remarks mercifully brief, restricting them to on what happens about divergence, but we start from a
new clause 4. This would be a detrimental amendment position of absolute alignment, which, to my mind,
to the Bill, because it would completely undermine the makes these negotiations totally possible in the next
negotiations that the Government have to undertake. 12 months.
305 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 306
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Dr Whitford: No one has ever negotiated a trade deal upstairs, which is important. One of my party’s problems
in just 11 months, so is it not likely that we will end is that although many of our supporters voted to leave
up with something incredibly primitive? As for casting the EU—and are enthusiastic about leaving—they are
up that people voted for this in the election, what they very poorly represented in the Labour party itself.
voted for was the Government party saying, “We will There is an element of tilting at windmills in this
achieve that by the end of the year.” They did not vote debate. I do not believe the catastrophe theories about
for it saying, “Well, never mind—we will crash out with the next 11 months or so. The public want us to get
no deal if we fail.” out, and it is in the mutual interest of the EU and its
member states and the UK to get as good a deal as
Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Lady makes a very good possible, so I do not believe the catastrophic predictions.
point, and I do not want to do that either. However, if I voted against the previous Prime Minister’s deal three
she reads the comments from Michel Barnier that I times, and against the current Prime Minister’s deal—in
quoted earlier, from the Financial Times of 26 November November, I think—but I did so because there were not
2019, she will see that he said that normally such a simple majorities and I believed there was a better deal
period would be far too short, but that Brussels would out there. Going through the Lobby, I was aware that
strive to have a deal in place. Clearly, he thinks that he is some were voting against because they wanted a better
capable of doing that. He talks about how he would deal—one we believed would better represent the decision
sequence negotiations. For some things, we would have in the 2016 referendum—but that others were voting to
to kick the can down the road a bit and put some delay the process because they wanted, either by measures
contingencies in place to deal with those. Clearly, he in this Chamber or by a second referendum, to overturn
thinks that it is possible that we can do that deal. the 2016 decision itself.
Dr Whitford: The political declaration has a huge I am pleased we are now to leave the EU on 31 January,
wish list of aspirations. Are they going to be negotiated but I am less pleased that, because of tactical mistakes
later, or does the hon. Gentleman really think that made by my colleagues, we are in a minority against the
including the European Medicines Agency, the European Conservative Government and look like being so for
Chemicals Agency and all the various things that are in some time. I take issue with both the philosophy and the
the wish list will be achieved by the end of the year? detail of the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member
for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) from the Front
Kevin Hollinrake: There may be a staging process; we Bench. The debate about whether we should remain in
do not know how the negotiations are going to roll out or leave the EU was never simply about the economy.
yet. Michel Barnier said that Brussels could take Much of the debate—certainly this is one of the things
contingency measures to deal with those kinds of issue, that has motivated me since the 1975 referendum, when
because he does not want economic disruption. There is I voted to leave—is about the democratic argument.
an appetite on both sides. What the European Union I believe it is better for both the economy and our
has done far better than the UK Parliament is negotiate society if people in this country elect the people who
as a bloc, together. There has not ever been any difficulty make our laws rather than letting unelected and appointed
from its side in terms of people wanting different things, people in other countries make them. That is a fundamental
whereas clearly the UK Parliament has not behaved like principle of democracy. Without it, we simply do not
that. As a result, the biggest vulnerability within the have a democracy. I also think that making our own
European Union from a poor trade deal or no trade regulations and laws for our own industries is likely to
deal is with regard to the Republic of Ireland. make us economically more efficient and proficient.
The Republic of Ireland’s GDP growth rate is around The other side of my hon. Friend’s argument is that
5%. Most financial commentators say that if there was the Conservatives want a race to the bottom. They
a no-deal Brexit, the Republic of Ireland would go into might or might not. I am in the Labour party, not the
recession. The EU would not want that. It would not Conservative party, because my philosophy differs from
leave the Republic of Ireland behind. The UK has theirs on many issues, but it is better in a democracy if
imperatives in striking a deal and so has the EU. To my we argue those issues out in general elections such as
mind, that means we can do a deal in the next 12 months. the one we have just had. If the Conservatives, as they
I urge the Opposition to have more confidence in their tend to, want a more free-market approach, they should
position. The remarks from the hon. Member for Sheffield argue for that, and if we want a more interventionist
Central (Paul Blomfield), the Opposition Front-Bench approach, we should argue for that, and whether we win
spokesman, betrayed a lack of confidence, appetite and or lose the argument is up to the electorate. At present,
enthusiasm for this whole thing. however, our ability to support our own industries
depends not on whether we or the Conservatives win an
We cannot deal with Brexit like this—and I voted to election, but on rules for state intervention and support
remain. We must walk forward with confidence not set down by the EU.
only about our new relationship with the European
Union, but, crucially at this time, about our negotiations Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings)
on the trade deal. (Con): As always, the hon. Gentleman is making a
compelling argument. I congratulate him not only on his
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It insight but on his consistency. In the end, this is a
is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir George. question of who exercises power and from where, in exactly
It has been mentioned that I am the only Labour the way he describes. For too long, too many people on
Back Bencher in the Chamber, which is a double privilege. both sides of the House have seen this argument through
First, I think I am the only Labour leaver from the last an economic prism, but it is actually about who decides
Parliament left in the House. Secondly, the hustings for our destiny, and it should be the British people through
the start of the Labour leadership election are going on those they choose to speak for them here.
307 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 308
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
6.45 pm The last Parliament made it clear that it would not
give the Government the support that they needed to
Graham Stringer: I thank the right hon. Gentleman move forward with a deal. The EU dug its heels in
for his intervention. He will not necessarily take this as deeper, and did not try to be accommodating. What is
a compliment, but Tony Benn could have made those important about clause 33 is that it draws a line, sends a
points, because they have run through the arguments of signal and makes the position very clear. It says, “Here is
both Conservative and Labour Members who support the deadline: now get on with the negotiations.” No clearer
leaving the EU ever since we joined in 1972. message could be sent to those who are negotiating on
Not only is it better that those decisions be taken the EU’s behalf.
here, but it is often assumed that the EU is good for the Indeed it is significant that, although we were formerly
economy and the protection of trade union and told that a trade deal could take years to negotiate, the
environmental rights, yet quite a lot of evidence runs language is suddenly changing because the arithmetic in
counter to that. I am not an expert on fishing, but the the House has changed and the Government’s will is
discard rule has been an environmental disaster in the different. We are now being told, “Well, it might not be
North sea. I understand quite a bit about trade union as difficult as it was for Canada and Japan. After all, we
protections and legislation and I never get a satisfactory are starting from the same place, and we have a lot of
answer from my side about the Laval and Viking decisions the same regulations”—and there are a number of
of the European Court of Justice. Not only do they other reasons why the negotiation might be easier than
undermine the minimum wage and the nature and we were previously told that it would be.
definition of a trade dispute; they are effectively
unchangeable, as we in this country cannot change laws Jonathan Edwards: I suspect that the right hon.
made by the ECJ. That is what is fundamentally wrong Gentleman is referring to the comments of the EU
with being a member of the EU. Trade Commissioner. He made those comments in the
I have no doubt that there will be changes when we context of a decision by the British Government to
leave the EU—people will be able to claim there has retain close alignment. The difficulties occur when we
been a negative economic change there or a positive one disalign.
here—but that happens all the time. Where has our
paper industry gone? Has it been helped by the EU and Sammy Wilson: Of course that will be the opening
its regulations? What about our agrochemical industry? negotiating position. He is not going to say, “Yes, and
It was essentially destroyed by European legislation, by the way, we do not have to have close alignment.”
but I do not hear people in this Chamber arguing There will still be a desire on the part of the EU to keep
against the EU in that regard. It is accepted—I do not us as close as possible. However, one way of ensuring
know why—that the EU will always be good for these that we get a deal, and get the kind of deal that we want,
things. is to make it clear that we will not engage in protracted
negotiations. We must say, “We will not allow you to use
If new clause 4 were to be put to the vote, I would not all the tactics that you have used before. You must come
join my colleagues in support of it. I agree with what to a conclusion. If you want access to our UK market—and
Labour Front Benchers have said—that we should use you need access to it because you sell more to us than
the debate on the Bill to improve things—but going we sell to you—and if you want the future trading
over the debate we have been having in this Chamber relationship and the co-operation that the Government
since 2016 will not do that. I have no idea—I have not have offered time and again, you must reach a deal
counted up the time—but my guess is that we have quickly.”
spent as much time in this Chamber discussing the 2016
referendum, at which we committed to giving the people John Redwood: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed,
the choice, as we did debating both the Lisbon and in the three and a half years of these endless debates,
Maastricht treaties put together. I understand, however, that the Labour and Liberal Opposition have always
that Front Benchers do not intend to put the new clause tabled proposals that strengthen the EU and undermine
to a vote. I hope they can be more constructive as we the UK? Has he noticed that they only ever put the EU
continue this debate. case, and never put the UK case?

Sammy Wilson: The Democratic Unionist party will Sammy Wilson: That was the whole point of extending
be supporting clause 33, though tomorrow we will be the implementation period, to allow that tactic to be
tabling amendments to the Bill, because, although we used, even in this Parliament, with different arithmetic.
accept that it is essential to get out of the EU as quickly It is one of the reasons why I think the Government are
as possible, we believe that the terms of the withdrawal right to draw a line and say, “We have a year in which to
agreement are detrimental to Northern Ireland. The do this. Now let us get on with it, and let us get the
purpose, however, of any amendments my party puts deal.” I just hope that during that period, the Government
forward will be to assist the process of leaving the EU will also be cognisant of the fact that the protocol on
and to ensure that the whole UK leaves. That is not the Northern Ireland is damaging to the Union, and will
case with new clauses 4 and 36, which are designed to seek to ensure in the negotiations that that protocol is
extend the period for which we stay in the EU and weakened and the differences between Northern Ireland
would make it much more difficult to have a clean and the rest of the UK are changed, so that we leave the
break. EU along with the rest of the United Kingdom and on
the same terms.
Have we learned nothing from the tactics the EU has
used over the last few years? The longer the period, the Daniel Kawczynski: The right hon. Gentleman has
more it can hold back, and the more demands it can talked about our huge trade deficit with the European
make. We have seen that time and again. Union and how vital a free trade agreement is to the
309 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 310
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Daniel Kawczynski] level playing fields, on payments and on a whole range
of other things.” That is the only word of caution that I
EU—how much more in its interests such an agreement will issue. Deadlines put pressure on both sides, and
is. I understand that our current trade deficit is more come December this year, whether the Government are
than £92 billion a year. Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to stand firm in the face of their own deadline
cognisant of that figure? and not be pushed around will be a test of their will.
Sammy Wilson: That is one of the reasons why it Question put and agreed to.
should not be too difficult to secure a trade deal. After Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
all, in whose interests is that? It is in the interests of Clauses 2 to 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
workers in Germany, France, Italy, Spain and other
countries all over Europe to have access to the UK
market. Our market is lucrative for them. We hear all Clause 7
this talk about why it will be difficult to do a deal, but
why would EU negotiators, now that they know there is RIGHTS RELATED TO RESIDENCE: APPLICATION
a different will in the House, want to turn their backs on DEADLINE AND TEMPORARY PROTECTION
the UK market? Why would they not want to have the
ability to sell goods to us, and to sell them on good Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and
terms? They will not want to erect the barriers that Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): I beg to move amendment 5,
people said they were likely to erect. page 9, line 36, leave out from “Crown” to end of clause
This is the right thing to do, tactically and politically. and insert
The Minister has said that it is necessary to deliver on “must by regulations make provision—
the commitment that his party made to the electorate ‘(a) implementing article 18(4) of the withdrawal agreement
during the general election, but let us go back further (right of eligible citizens to residence documents proving
than that: it is necessary to deliver on the referendum legal status), including making provision for a physical
document;
result of 2016, when we promised people that we would
leave. I think that the delay has been long enough, and (b) implementing article 17(4) of the EEA EFTA separation
agreement (right of eligible citizens to residence
people are frustrated enough, so this is the right thing to documents proving legal status) including making
do politically, but I also think that it is the right thing to provision for a physical document; and
do from the point of view of industry, and economically. (c) implementing article 16(4) of the Swiss citizens’ rights
We have heard time and again that investment decisions agreement (right of eligible citizens to residence
are being delayed because of uncertainty—that people documents proving legal status).’”
need to know what the future is likely to be, so that we This amendment would mean that EEA and Swiss citizens residing
can then see a bounce in the economy. Let us not push in the UK would automatically have rights under article 18(4) of
this further down the road. Let us make sure that the withdrawal agreement (and equivalent provisions in the EEA
people have certainty as quickly as possible. EFTA and Swiss citizens’ rights agreements) rather than having to
apply for them, and would have the right to a physical document
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does the right proving their status.
hon. Gentleman agree that, throughout the general
election, the mantra of the British people was “Just get The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means
on with it.”? Indeed, the outcome of the election was a (Sir George Howarth): With this it will be convenient to
mandate to the House to get on with the exiting of the discuss the following:
European Union, and the new clause flies in the face of Amendment 6, page 10, line 41, at end insert—
the outcome of the general election that we have just
‘(3A) Regulations made under this section shall apply to—
had.
(a) the rights of all persons eligible for leave to enter or
Sammy Wilson: Yes. I— remain in the United Kingdom by virtue of—
(i) the withdrawal agreement, or
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (ii) residence scheme immigration rules (see section 17)
(Sir George Howarth): Order. I was hesitating to interrupt as in force on 21 December 2019, and
the right hon. Gentleman, because I thought that he (b) such other persons as Ministers consider appropriate.
was reaching his peroration, but may I just remind him
(3B) The residence scheme immigration rules (see section 17)
that he should keep his remarks as close as possible to may not be amended so as to reduce the range of persons eligible
the clauses and new clauses that we are debating? for leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom by virtue of
those rules (other than by primary legislation), but other persons
Sammy Wilson: Let me conclude my speech, Sir George, may be added as Ministers consider appropriate.”
by issuing a word of caution about clause 33. While a
This amendment would ensure that the range of persons entitled
deadline of December this year can put pressure on the
under UK law to benefit from the rights set out in the Withdrawal
EU, it can also put pressure on the Government. As we Agreement cannot be reduced except by primary legislation.
in Northern Ireland have learned, the pressure on the
Government from the 31 October deadline led to Amendment 27, page 10, line 41, at end insert—
concessions that were not good for, at least, our part of ‘(3A) Regulations made under this section may not prevent
the United Kingdom. This is where Government will EEA and Swiss nationals, or their family members, who are
resident in the United Kingdom on or prior to 31 December 2020
and determination are important.
applying for settled status at any time.”
Equally, the deadline that the Government have imposed
This amendment would ensure that people eligible for settled status
on themselves could be used by EU negotiators to make would not be prevented from obtaining it by an application deadline.
demands. Those negotiators could say, “If you want a
deal by that stage, here are the things that we want from Clause stand part.
you: we want you to make concessions on fishing, on Clauses 8 to 10 stand part.
311 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 312
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Amendment 2, in clause 11, page 14, line 2, leave out (2) A person to which this section applies has the rights and
subsection (1) and insert— obligations provided in Article 12 and Title II Part II ‘Citizens’
Rights’ of the Withdrawal Agreement.
‘(1) A person may appeal against a citizens’ rights immigration
decision to the First-tier Tribunal.” (3) The Secretary of State must by regulations make
provision—
This amendment would give a right of appeal against a citizens’
rights immigration decision. (a) implementing article 18(4) of the withdrawal agreement
(right of eligible citizens to receive a residence document),
Amendment 3, page 14, line 24, leave out subsections (3) including making provision for a physical document
and (4) and insert— providing proof of residence;
‘(3) Subject to subsection (4), while an appeal is pending, the (b) implementing article 17(4) of the EEA EFTA separation
person concerned shall be deemed to have all the rights associated agreement (right of eligible citizens to receive a residence
with indefinite leave to remain under the residence scheme immigration document) including making provision for a physical
rules, in particular as concerns residence, employment, access to document providing proof of residence;
social security benefits and other services. (c) implementing article 16(4) of the Swiss citizens’ rights
(4) Subsection (3) does not apply to an appeal against a agreement (right of eligible citizens to receive a residence
decision falling within subsection (2)(a) or (c). document) including making provision for a physical
(4A) “Pending” shall have the same meaning for the purposes document providing proof of residence.
of subsections (3) and (4) as in section 104 of the Nationality, (4) No provision of this or any other enactment, or adopted
Immigration and Asylum Act 2002.” under this or any other enactment, may be used to require
This amendment would protect the rights of EU citizens while their European Union nationals and their family members, or nationals
appeals are pending. of Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland and their
family members, who reside in the United Kingdom immediately
Amendment 20, page 14, line 24, leave out “also” prior to the end of the implementation period, to apply for a new
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 2. residence status under Article 18(1) of the Withdrawal Agreement,
or to introduce a deadline for applications under residence scheme
Amendment 7, page 14, line 25, leave out “(including immigration rules or relevant entry clearance rules.
judicial reviews)”
(5) Residence scheme immigration rules and relevant entry
This amendment would remove the power being provided to ministers clearance immigration rules may not be amended to provide that
to make regulations about judicial review of certain immigration any person who benefited or is eligible to benefit under those
decisions. rules on the day on which this Act is passed benefits any less than
Amendment 21, page 14, line 27, leave out “(1) or” he benefited or was eligible to benefit on the day on which this
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 2. Act is passed.”
Clauses 11 to 14 stand part. This new clause provides for all EU citizens who are resident in the
UK before exit day to have the right of permanent residence, whether
That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill. or not they have been exercising treaty rights, and makes sure that
Clause 15 stand part. every person who is entitled to settled status has the same rights.
Amendment 22, in schedule 2, page 46, line 12, leave New clause 18—Fee levels and exemptions—
out “Secretary of State” and insert ‘(1) No person to whom regulations under section 7(1) (as
“Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration”. qualified by section 7(2) and 7(3)) apply may be charged a fee to
register as a British citizen that is higher than the cost to the
This amendment would make the Independent Chief Inspector of Secretary of State of exercising the function of registration.
Borders and Immigration responsible for appointing non-executive
members to the independent monitoring authority, rather than the (2) No child of a person to whom subsection (1) applies may be
Secretary of State. charged a fee to register as a British citizen if that child is
receiving the assistance of a local authority.
Amendment 23, page 46, line 20, leave out “Secretary
of State” and insert (3) No child of a person to whom subsection (1) applies may
be charged a fee to register as a British citizen that the child or
“Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration”. the child’s parent, guardian or carer is unable to afford.
This amendment would make the Independent Chief Inspector of
(4) The Secretary of State must take steps to raise awareness of
Borders and Immigration, rather than the Secretary of State,
people to whom this section applies of their rights under the
jointly responsible with non-executive members of the Independent
British Nationality Act 1981 to register as British citizens.
Monitoring Authority for ensuring that, as far as possible, numbers
of non-executive members exceed the number of executive members (5) A Minister of the Crown may amend, waive or restrict any
on the IMA. requirement of any other person to pay a fee to register as a
British citizen where the Secretary of State considers it appropriate
Amendment 37, page 59, line 15, leave out paragraphs 39 or necessary to do so in consequence of any discrimination
and 40 between people of, or children of people of, differing nationality
This amendment would require any transfer or abolition of the or other status.”
functions of Independent Monitoring Authority for the Citizens’ This new clause would ensure that persons entitled to benefit from
Rights Agreements to be by way of primary legislation. the citizens’ rights protections in the Bill did not miss out on
That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill. registering as a citizen of the UK because of the level of fee
Clauses 16 and 17 stand part. currently charged.

New clause 5—Protecting EU Citizens’ Rights— New clause 33—EU Settlement Scheme: physical
documented proof—
‘(1) This section applies to—
‘The Secretary of State must make provision to ensure that
(a) European Union citizens having the right to reside
EEA and Swiss nationals and their family members who are
permanently in the UK according to Article 15 (“Rights
granted settled or pre-settled status are provided with physical
of permanent residence”) of the Withdrawal Agreement;
documented proof of that status.”
(b) persons to whom the provisions in (a) do not apply but
who are eligible for indefinite leave to enter or remain, This new clause would require the Government to provide physical
or limited leave to enter or remain by virtue of residence documents to enable people to prove their settled status.
scheme immigration rules (see section 17). New clause 34—Settled status: right to appeal—
313 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 314
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
‘(1) A person may appeal against a settled status decision to more miserable. In doing so, they have broken explicit
the First-tier Tribunal. promises made by the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary
(2) A settled status decision includes a decision— and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster during
(a) to refuse to grant leave to remain under Appendix EU the Brexit referendum.
of the Immigration Rules made under section 3(2) of Our amendments seek to remedy the awful choices
the Immigration Act 1971, or
that the Government have made—namely, the choice to
(b) to grant limited leave to remain under Appendix EU of
the Immigration Rules made under section 3(2) of the
demand that citizens apply to stay; the choice that they
Immigration Act 1971 to a person who has applied have made to fail to provide a physical document as
for indefinite leave to remain under that Appendix. proof of status; and the choice that the Government
(3) An appeal against a decision under subsection 2(b) may be have made about how the new Independent Monitoring
brought only on the grounds that the person is entitled to indefinite Authority should be constituted. Our new clause 18 seeks
leave to remain under Appendix EU of the Immigration Rules. to make life a little better for EU nationals by ensuring
(4) While an appeal under subsection 2(a) is pending, the that those who are entitled to British citizenship can
person concerned shall be deemed to have all the rights associated access that entitlement, regardless of their ability to pay
with indefinite leave to remain under Appendix EU of the Immigration exorbitant Home Office fees.
Rules in particular as concerns residence, employment, access to I turn first to amendments 5 and 6. Article 18 of the
social security benefits and other services.
withdrawal agreement gave the Government a choice.
(5) While an appeal under subsection 2(b) is pending, the They could either do what the Prime Minister and
limited leave to remain granted under Appendix EU to the the Home Secretary promised and declare in law the
Immigration Rules shall continue in force.
rights of EU citizens automatically—a so-called declaratory
(6) “Pending” shall have the same meaning for the purposes of system or registration system. Alternatively, they could
subsections (4) and (5) above as in section 104 of the Nationality,
Immigration and Asylum Act 2002.”
make EU citizens apply to stay in their own UK homes,
changing the rules after those citizens had put down
This new clause would establish a right to appeal settled status
roots here and pulling the rug from under their feet.
decisions.
There is no reasonable explanation why the Government
chose the latter. The difference between a declaratory
Stuart C. McDonald: It is a pleasure to serve under or registration system and an apply-to-stay scheme
your chairmanship, Sir George. might not sound like much to those who are new to the
For us, this part of the Bill is relentlessly dire. For issue, but the implications are absolutely momentous
decades, British citizens and citizens across Europe have in terms of the potential disaster that individuals will
enjoyed the extraordinary benefits of free movement—to face and of the number of people who face such a
live, work and study across a continent. This part of the disaster.
Bill implements part 2 of the withdrawal agreement, the By way of a hypothetical example, let us imagine a
part that brings all those benefits of free movement to a retired French lady and a young Polish guy. The French
crashing halt. Future generations throughout Europe lady has been here since the 1970s and had a permanent
will miss out, but none more than UK citizens. residence document under the old EU rules.
Understandably, she thought she did not need to apply
The First Deputy Chairman: Order. I hope that those to stay, but it turns out that, of course, she did. The
who are standing at the back of the Chamber will take Polish guy was born here and because of that he believed
the advice that it is discourteous to chunter while the that he was British, so he did not apply. However, it
hon. Gentleman is speaking. turns out that because his Polish mum and his UK
father were not married at the time of his birth, he was
7 pm not British after all, and he should have applied as well.
Under the Government’s proposals, that French lady
Stuart C. McDonald: If those colleagues are waiting and the young Polish lad will be subject to the full force
for a vote on the previous group, it may be useful of the hostile environment. At some point, out of the
to tell them that that vote is not happening, but if they blue, they will lose their jobs, their access to the NHS or
are interested in free movement rights, they are welcome the tenancy of their homes. It will be just like the
to stay. Windrush fiasco, but for them it will be even worse
As I was saying, free movement rights have been because they will have no way to rectify their terrible
brought to a crashing halt by part 2 of the withdrawal situation and will be subject to removal. Imagine what
agreement, and that is what this part of the Bill seeks to that will mean for those individuals.
implement. It is not just UK citizens who will no longer In terms of scale, we need to recall that few schemes
be able to benefit from free movement, but those here at such as the one that the Home Office is attempting ever
home who will have less opportunity to meet, work get close to a 90% reach, never mind a 100% reach, and
alongside or form families with European colleagues or that even if the Home Office does amazingly well and
to benefit from the skills and expertise they bring as achieves a 90% reach of EU nationals, that will still
workers in our public services or the wider economy. mean that hundreds of thousands of people will be in
In Scotland, we face the very real prospect of a situations like that. There are a million reasons why we
stagnating or declining population, so any legislation will not get close to a 90% reach.
implementing that agreement would be horrible, but
this legislation is even worse than it needs to be because Dr Whitford: Is it not concerning that, when we look
where the withdrawal agreement gives the Government at the monthly figures, we see that more than 40% of
a choice, they have made the wrong choice. Instead of EU nationals are only being given settled status? I am
making life just a little bit easier for EU nationals going sure MPs right across the House will have had examples
through a torrid time, the Government are making it of people, particularly women with caring responsibilities
315 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 316
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
who have been here for decades, who are not being given at the drop of a hat by changing the immigration rules.
it. My concern is for those very elderly people who are The official Opposition’s new clause 5 would do the
not even considering that this might apply to them. same thing.
A third disappointing choice that the Government
have made relates to the make-up of the Independent
Stuart C. McDonald: My hon. Friend is absolutely Monitoring Authority—that is, the body tasked with
right. I was just about to give an example of the sort of ensuring that citizens’ rights under the agreement are
person who will be caught out by this, and there are properly protected. The withdrawal agreement gives
many more. It is not just those who did not think they broad discretion as to how the board should be made
needed to apply because of the complex stays, or their up. Given the torrid time that EU citizens are enduring,
immigration and nationality situation, but also those the last thing they want to see are provisions that mean
with, for example, low digital literacy or poor language that the person appointing the members of the IMA is a
skills. There are also those who accepted pre-settled person who has ignored all the other concerns and broken
status and overlooked the subsequent deadline for applying the key commitment that she made to them during the
for settled status, as well as children and vulnerable referendum. That is of course the Home Secretary.
adults. The list goes on.
Yes, there are other provisions that are designed to
This is absolutely not the way, as the Government create a degree of independence for the IMA, but in
have said previously, to avoid a new Windrush disaster. advance of the creation of the authority, it is the chief
This is the way to create a disaster on an even greater inspector of borders and immigration who has been
scale. It is not just me saying this; it is the3million monitoring the settled status scheme and who has prepared
campaign group, legal experts and think tanks, and it is reports and recommendations about it. That makes
the cross-party conclusion of the Home Affairs Committee, him a strong candidate for knowing what skills are
so we call on the Government to think again and to required for the Independent Monitoring Authority,
provide the status automatically and keep the settlement but there are other independent people who could do
scheme open so that people can access the physical the task and give EU citizens much more faith in the
document that they need, as and when they realise they process. Additionally, in amendment 52, we seek to
need it. That is what amendments 5 and 6 seek to do, as strengthen the role of the devolved Administrations in
does the official Opposition’s new clause 5, which, the process of appointing those IMA members being
because it would do everything in one go, is the one that selected because of their knowledge of conditions in the
we will support in a vote. devolved areas.
The second bad choice the Government made was in Turning to appeals, it is positive that the Bill makes
relation to documentation. The withdrawal agreement provision for a right of appeal against settled status
allows for the provision of a physical document as decisions, but not that it does so only by way of regulations
evidence of status. Alternatively, that proof could be or immigration rules. There should be a statutory right
in digital form. The Government have gone for a purely of appeal in the primary legislation. These significant
digital form of proof, which is completely contrary to rights are not to be toyed with on the whim of a
what the overwhelming majority of EU nationals would Minister. So again, we support parties who have tabled
prefer. How many Members would be happy to rely amendments to put the right of appeal in the Bill
exclusively on a piece of Government digital code in an directly.
online system as the sole means of evidencing their In amendment 7, we challenge the Government’s giving
right to live, work or study here or anywhere else? If the Ministers the right to make provisions about judicial
digital form were available alongside the opportunity to reviews of certain citizens’ rights immigration decisions.
request a document, that would be fine, but it is completely This seems unprecedented, and if the Minister can
unacceptable for it to be in digital form only. What if provide another example of such a power being granted,
our retired French lady is digitally challenged, as the I would be grateful to hear about it. There is huge
expression goes? How difficult will it be for her to prove concern about what the Government want to do with
her rights? And what will happen when the young Polish judicial oversight of the decisions that they make, and I
guy seeks to persuade a landlord that he is eligible to hope that this is not an early example of Government
rent a flat in England? We know how great the chance is attempts to curtail judicial oversight of significant and
that the landlord will rent that flat to a person with a sensitive immigration powers.
passport, way before they will go through the process of
I turn now to the registration of British citizenship.
checking the Polish lad’s immigration status. The right-
This is another scandal that has developed on the watch
to-rent scheme is already in limbo because judges have
of successive Conservative Home Secretaries negligently
found such episodes occurring with other less complicated
conflating naturalisation with registration. After the British
forms of proof. What if the digital system crashes
Nationality Act 1981 came into force, many children
altogether at a crucial moment, as has happened already?
and young people who would automatically have been
Again, the Home Office is making decisions against the
British through birth here were instead given a statutory
interests of EU citizens. That is why amendment 5 calls
right to register as British if they met certain criteria
for a physical document to be provided.
such as living in the country for a certain period or their
I like to be fair, so let me acknowledge one good parents becoming settled or British. These criteria reflect
decision that the Government have made. That was the the fact that for those children and young people, the
decision to open the settled status scheme to a broader UK is their true home. De facto, they are British and
category of citizen than was strictly required by the should therefore be legally entitled to British citizenship.
withdrawal agreement. Amendment 6 seeks to cement A Conservative Minister of State said, when introducing
that into primary legislation, rather than leaving it to the relevant provisions in 1981, that it is extremely
the whim of an immigration Minister to do away with important that those who grow up in this country
317 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 318
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Stuart C. McDonald] have that right through registration can afford it. That is
why new clause 18 sets out to limit the fee that can be
should have as strong a sense of security as possible. charged for the administrative cost and to provide for
That is not the same as naturalisation, where the law free exemptions and waivers in appropriate circumstances.
gives the Secretary of State discretion in relation to I do not want this to be limited to EU citizens, but it has
people who have chosen to make the UK their home. to be because of the scope of the Bill. However, there is
But the Home Secretary charges for children to register, a far bigger job of work to be done in ensuring that
as if the two things were equivalent. Even though the these things are done right across the board. As my hon.
administrative cost to the Home Office of registration is Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss)
around £370, the Home Office has been charging over pointed out, we should look to reimburse those who
£1,000 for several years—something the now Chancellor have had to break the bank, take loans or do whatever
acknowledged was a huge sum when he was asked else simply so that their children can become British
about it at the Home Affairs Committee. Imagine anyone citizens or register the right to British citizenship that
in this Chamber being asked by an official for £1,000 they are entitled to under statutes passed in this place. It
before their child could be confirmed as British and seems a simple matter of justice to me. I cannot understand
could exercise their rights as a British citizen. It would how any Government or MP would want to continue to
be deemed outrageous and totally unacceptable to every deprive de facto British citizens of the legal British
single person in this Chamber. It is similarly outrageous citizenship they are entitled to, and that is why new
that the Home Office is inflicting that fate on other clause 18 should be put to a vote this evening.
children who are just as entitled to their British citizenship. In conclusion, many EU citizens are having an incredibly
difficult time, to put it mildly. They were hurt again by
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): My hon. the lazy rhetoric coming from the Conservative party
Friend is making an excellent point, and I am glad he is during the election about the cost of benefit payments
raising the issue. I often get families at my surgeries who to EU migrants, and by the Prime Minister’s remarks
cannot afford to have their children registered; they about EU citizens daring to treat the UK like their own
might register themselves because they need to work or country. Instead of occasional platitudes in this Chamber,
travel, but they cannot afford to pay for their children. we need consistent and vocal support for EU nationals.
With the decision of the courts on this issue, does my More than that, we need action, not words, and these
hon. Friend have any view on whether people should be amendments and new clauses are exactly the action that
issued with refunds for the children they have is needed to improve the lives of those people.
already paid for, as the courts have ruled the charges
unlawful? The Minister for Security (Brandon Lewis): It has
now been over three years since the referendum, and we
Stuart C. McDonald: I fully support that decision, are here today because the Conservative party can finally
and I will come to the court case in a moment. Another break the deadlock and ensure that there is no more
example I found when searching for cases is that parents delay. This Bill means that the UK will leave the EU on
have to choose which child will become a British citizen. 31 January, delivering on our pledge to get Brexit done.
They cannot afford to pay for two or three, so they have Our Prime Minister, standing right here at the Dispatch
to pick which child will benefit from citizenship. It is a Box, laid out a powerful vision for a rejuvenated, forward-
really appalling and cruel game. looking, optimistic United Kingdom. This Bill will
allow us to unite the whole country and take advantage
It is therefore welcome, as my hon. Friend pointed of the opportunities that lie ahead for us.
out, that the fees have been found unlawful in the High
Court because they do not properly take into account Throughout the negotiations, our first priority has
the best interests of children. I pay tribute to the Project been to safeguard the rights of EU citizens, those who
for the Registration of Children as British Citizens, have built their lives here and contributed to the UK.
Amnesty International and others for their work on The clauses laid out in the citizens’ rights part of the
that case. Instead of appealing against that decision, the Bill are essential to implementing the withdrawal agreement
Home Office should listen to the reasoned arguments so that EU citizens’ rights to live, work, study and
and stop this absolute scandal. Among the victims of access benefits in the UK are protected. We have delivered
this scandal are many EU and European Economic on that commitment, and this Bill provides certainty to
Area nationals—for example, a young Belgian girl born EU citizens and their family members who are covered
in the UK to Belgian parents just after they moved here by our implementation of the withdrawal agreement.
and before they were settled. She becomes entitled to
British citizenship automatically after 10 years, or if the 7.15 pm
parents become UK citizens or settled themselves, but The citizens’ rights clauses—clauses 7 to 17—include
she or her family quite simply may not be able to afford provisions to implement technical aspects of the withdrawal
the £1,000 fee. She, along with many others, will be agreement. This will provide for a grace period for EU
forced to register under the settlement scheme, when settlement scheme applications, frontier workers, restrictions
they have a far stronger right to citizenship. As the of rights of entry and residence, appeals, recognition of
Project for the Registration of Children as British Citizens professional qualifications, social security co-ordination
and Amnesty pointed out in a letter to the Minister’s and equal treatment. The Bill also implements the EEA
predecessor, children and young people in the care EFTA separation agreement and Swiss citizens’ rights
system are especially at risk. agreement, providing EEA, EFTA and Swiss nationals
There are many things that need to be done to allow with certainty. For colleagues’ reference, unless I make
children and young people to access their right to British further distinction, I will refer to this entire group as
citizenship, but one key aspect is ensuring that all who “EU citizens”.
319 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 320
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Once we leave the EU, and after the implementation Stuart C. McDonald: I have two quick questions for
period, we will end free movement. Clause 7 allows the Minister. First, how many individuals have applied?
Ministers to set a deadline for applications to the scheme I note that some may have made several applications.
and enables the Government to preserve the rights of Secondly, and more importantly, does he dispute my
EU citizens during the grace period. It also means that estimate that hundreds of thousands of EU citizens will
we can maintain the same protections for those with a fail to apply in time? Has the Home Office made such
pending application or appeal at the end of that grace an assessment?
period.
I urge hon. Members not to press new clauses 5, Brandon Lewis: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman.
18 and 33, as well as amendments 5, 6 and 27 to this In fact, I disagreed with quite a lot of what he said when
clause, which put the success of the EU settlement he was on his feet a few moments ago, when he gave
scheme in jeopardy. If we remove the need to apply for some clear misrepresentations of what is happening
status, put in place a declaratory system, provide for with this system. Over 2.8 million people have already
physical documents, lock the eligibility criteria and applied, with nearly 2.5 million applications being granted,
remove the deadline, it could undermine our ability to so that shows that the scheme, which has not been
give EU citizens the certainty that we have promised running for a year and still has at least a year and a half
and are determined to deliver. to run, is working.
I will be very clear with Members: the EU settlement On the second part of the hon. Gentleman’s question,
scheme is already up and running. It is designed to I remind him and other colleagues who are unaware
be quick and easy for applicants, and it is working. that not only have we said that if somebody has a good,
For Members’ information, the latest figures show that reasonable reason for not applying earlier, we will still
over 2.8 million applications have now been received, process their EU settled status application—even after
and nearly 2.5 million people have been granted status. June 2021—but we are doing specific work with groups
The scheme is a success. around the country to reach the most vulnerable people.
We have the road shows and our online work, and the
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): As the Minister will phone centre is working around the clock, seven days a
know, I questioned the Prime Minister on this issue on week, to deal with people’s queries. We have put in some
25 July. I reminded him that during the referendum he £9 million to work with voluntary groups around the
personally promised that no EU citizen living in the UK country to reach everyone, so, yes, I disagree with him
would be treated any less favourably as a result of our in the sense that I think that we will get to these people.
leaving the European Union. I asked the Prime Minister
whether he would Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/
Co-op): Will the Minister give way?
“now guarantee the right to healthcare, pension rights, the right
to leave and return, the right to bring over family, the right to vote
and all the other rights currently enjoyed by EU citizens”.—[Official Brandon Lewis: I will in a moment.
Report, 25 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 1498.] If EU citizens do not apply through the EU settlement
The Prime Minister, at the Dispatch Box, told me and scheme, it may prove difficult to distinguish them from
this House that the Government were giving those those who arrived after the end of the implementation
guarantees “unilaterally”. Which clauses make good on period. The hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth
those promises from the Prime Minister about the right and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald) ignored
to pensions, the right to healthcare and the right to that fact completely earlier. It is essential that EU
bring family members over at some time in the future? citizens have the evidence that they need to demonstrate
If they are not in the Bill, the Prime Minister has made their rights here in the UK.
promises from the Dispatch Box that the Government
have no intention of keeping. Dr Whitford: Will the Minister give way?

The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Brandon Lewis: Not at the moment. Such an approach
(Sir George Howarth): Order. I draw Members’ attention could also lead to EU citizens who have not applied for
to the fact that interventions should be brief and to the documentation suffering inadvertent discrimination
point. I am not necessarily saying the hon. Gentleman’s compared with those who have. That is exactly what
was not, but for further reference I think that advice happened to the Windrush generation, and the Government
should be taken. are adamant that we must avoid a repeat of that dreadful
situation.
Brandon Lewis: Thank you, Sir George. As my right
hon. and hon. Friends will outline, we are working with Stephen Doughty: Given that the Minister mentions
our colleagues and friends around Europe, and they are the Windrush generation, he will surely recognise that
all very happy with the scheme. In fact, as I will come to many of the amendments relate to concerns that the
in a few moments, our scheme is far more generous than hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch
what many countries around Europe offer to UK citizens. East (Stuart C. McDonald), others and I raised during
I hope that will change, but this programme does deliver—I Select Committee on Home Affairs sessions that examined
will come to some specifics in further clauses, but I am the EU settlement scheme and, of course, the Windrush
sticking to the clauses that are before us today. It is scandal. There is no malign intent behind the amendments.
delivering a scheme that, as I say, has had over 2.8 million They are about ensuring that people have their rights
applications already, and nearly 2.5 million people have and are able to exercise them. What lessons has the
already been granted status. That is a success. EU citizens Minister learned from the Windrush scandal and, indeed,
in the UK also have until the end of June 2021 to apply. the evidence taken by that Committee?
321 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 322
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Brandon Lewis: The hon. Gentleman makes a good protect the security and safety of people in this country
point. It is clear, as I have just said, that we all want to by refusing settled status to people with a serious criminal
ensure that we avoid the problems that we had with the record.
Windrush generation. One of the key issues— Pre-settled status is granted only to people who have
not been living in the country for five years. I will come
Stuart C. McDonald: Will the Minister give way on back to the process around that in a moment, but
that point? anyone who has lived in the country for five years or
more—we are helping them with ways of evidencing
Brandon Lewis: I will finish answering the first that—is entitled to full settled status.
intervention before I consider taking any others. Part of
the problem with a declaratory scheme is that it leads to Alison Thewliss: Will the Minister give way?
the problems of Windrush. This scheme means that people
have evidence of their rights, which means that they Brandon Lewis: I will just finish my point. Protections
cannot be contestable in future, avoiding that problem for those who do not apply by the June 2021 deadline
in the first place. Moreover, this scheme is already more are already built into the agreements. There will be no
generous in its scope than the agreements themselves cliff edge for vulnerable people who are unable to make
require, which the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, an application due to circumstances beyond their control.
Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East did outline earlier. For As with all aspects of the EU settlement scheme, we will
example, some people do not meet all the current adopt a flexible and pragmatic approach and exercise
requirements of free movement law and therefore are discretion in applicants’ favour. I urge hon. Members to
outside the scope of the agreement. As a matter of withdraw their amendments, but I will take the hon.
domestic policy, we have decided, nevertheless, that Lady’s intervention.
such people should be in scope of the EU settlement
scheme, so we have granted them residence rights. Alison Thewliss: What the Minister is saying is not
accurate. I have a constituent who has a national insurance
I will go a bit further on physical documentation. We number card, which are not even issued anymore, who
are developing a new border and immigration system was only given pre-settled status. That constituent was
that is digital by default for all migrants, not just EU able to prove that they had been here, and everything
citizens. It is being rolled out incrementally and, over they submitted was correct, yet they have pre-settled
time, we intend to replace all physical and paper-based status. How many more people have been given that?
documents, which can be lost or stolen. Eventually, all
migrants, not just those from the EU, will have digital Brandon Lewis: As I said, anybody who has lived in
status only, so amendment 5 would impede our ability the country for five years or more is entitled to settled
to deliver an improved, equal and fair digital status. status. I am very happy—[Interruption.] Will the hon.
Lady listen to the answer? If hon. Members have individual
Dr Whitford: Does the Minister not understand that cases in which somebody has been granted pre-settled
someone getting to the end of the settled status process status when they feel that they should have received full
may be told that an email is meaningless and they will settled status, I will personally look at those cases.
not have a document, which will not be reassuring? Part Every such case that has come forward so far has turned
of the Windrush issue was that the Home Office destroyed out to involve an issue. In one case, the person had not
records, so people who are depending on the Home actually even applied for settled status and had gone
Office to keep digital records are naturally pretty nervous. through an entirely different system. In other cases,
They would keep their records quite safe at home. applicants had not been able to provide evidence. However,
A declaratory system does not prevent registration. our teams are working with people—that is why we are
We can register people, but we can automatically say doing the road shows—to ensure that anything that
that they have a right. This is an application system, and people can provide as evidence of their being in this
people are being turned down or given pre-settled status—it country for more than five years will allow them to be
is not the same. granted settled status. With nearly 2.5 million settled
statuses already granted out of 2.8 million applications,
Brandon Lewis: It is important that I clarify some of I think that highlights the success.
the hon. Lady’s misrepresentations. Her point argues
for and against her colleague’s earlier comments. We Stephen Doughty: Will the Minister give way again?
want to ensure that people have a status, and a digital
status means that it is there for ever. It means that Brandon Lewis: No, I will not give way on that point
employers, landlords or anybody can access it in future. any further.
It is not reliant on somebody keeping any documentation Clause 8 enables the Government to protect frontier
or ensuring that it is not stolen. As for her comments workers and means that we can establish a registration
about the process, it is fast and easy— scheme providing certainty to such workers about their
rights going forward. Clauses 9 and 10 go hand in hand,
Dr Whitford: Not for everyone. enabling us to continue to apply EU deportation thresholds
when assessing conduct committed before the end of
Brandon Lewis: Let me finish the point. It takes five the implementation period for the purposes of restricting
to 10 minutes online—the same as renewing a driving a person’s right to enter or reside here in the UK.
licence or passport. Conduct committed after the end of the implementation
The hon. Lady should be aware that, as of the last set period will be assessed according to UK rules on criminality
of official figures, only two1 people have been actively and behaviour non-conducive to the public good. That
refused settled status, and both refusals were on serious creates a fair and even system for all that does not
criminality grounds. I stand by this country’s right to benefit any foreign nationals over others.
1.[Official Report, 13 January 2020, Vol. 669, c. 1MC.]
323 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 324
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Clause 11 provides a power to put in place various against the Government and public authorities, and
rights of appeal in connection with citizens’ rights and work is already well under way in the Ministry of Justice
immigration decisions, including refusals under the EU to set up this new organisation.
settlement scheme, which are an essential and important I urge hon. Members not to press amendments 22,
part of our commitments. 23 and 37. The first two amendments are unnecessary,
I ask hon. Members to not to press amendments 3, 2, as non-executive appointments to the Independent
20, 21, 7 and new clause 34 because they are unnecessary. Monitoring Authority’s board will be made under the
Thanks to the power contained in clause 11, EU citizens well-established principles of public appointments, in
who are appealing a decision on residence will be able to accordance with the governance code for public
do so under the EU settlement scheme. Individuals who appointments. The Secretary of State will also have a
have been granted pre-settled status who believe they statutory duty to have regard to the need to protect the
should have been granted settled status can also appeal. IMA’s operational independence.
The amendments would also potentially do damage. Clause 16 contains supplementary provisions, such
The situations requiring the right of appeal under the as to prevent any overlapping conferred powers from
agreements are numerous, and the applications of existing affecting the extent of any power of a devolved authority.
rules relating to appeal rights are complex. Putting a Clause 17 provides the necessary definitions of terms
right of appeal into the Bill would mean that none of used in this part of the Bill.
that detail could be properly reflected. I also urge hon. Members not to press new clause 18,
The amendments would make it harder for EU citizens which would remove citizenship fees for EU citizens.
to appeal against an exclusion decision. They would That could lead to discrimination based on nationality
actually remove our ability to provide EU citizens with by giving EU citizens preferential fees for citizenship. It
access to the special appeals immigration commission would also undermine the legislative structure, which is
when challenging an exclusion decision through judicial already in place, that not only sets fees but provides for
review. They would also prevent the Government from specific fee exceptions.
treating EU citizens in the same way as third country
nationals when it comes to removals during an appeal Stuart C. McDonald: That is exactly why new clause 18(5)
process. Furthermore, the amendments create a perverse would allow Ministers to extend the reduced fees and
incentive for individuals to launch appeals and would the waiver scheme to everybody else. It would be entirely
mean that people who have applications that have absolutely within the Minister’s gift to make sure such discrimination
no chance of succeeding could access social security does not arise. What is discriminatory is the horrendous
benefits. I am concerned that this would open our fee, which prohibits some kids from getting the British
immigration system to potential benefits abuse, which is nationality to which they are just as entitled as the
something we should not allow. I hope what I have said children of everybody in this place.
assures hon. Members that these amendments are not
only undesirable but unnecessary, so I urge them not to
press them. Brandon Lewis: New clause 18, as drafted, would
discriminate by nationality because, as I said, it would
give EU citizens preferential fees for citizenship.
7.30 pm My next sentence would have negated the need for
Clause 12 provides a power to amend the statute the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, because I was about
book to protect existing decisions on the recognition of to say that new clause 18 would also undermine the
professional qualifications and to ensure that outstanding legislative structure that is already in place. This Bill is
applications for recognition can be completed. Such not the place to set fees, including specific fee exceptions,
lifelong recognition of qualifications will provide certainty as that is done in different legislation.
to professionals such as nurses, vets and lawyers who Part 2 of the Bill honours our obligation to EU citizens
provide crucial services to us all. who are living in the UK by ensuring they have the
Clause 13 enables the Government to maintain our certainty they need as our country moves forward.
statute book in accordance with the social security Frankly, it is disappointing that not all European countries
co-ordination provisions. This will protect areas such as have provided the same assurances to British nationals
access to pensions, benefits and healthcare cover for living in the EU, which is something we hope will
those who move between the UK and the EU before the change. We will continue to work towards that for our
end of the implementation period. citizens.
Clause 14 provides a similar power for maintaining This Government have always put citizens’ rights first
the statute book to make sure that the rights of equal and foremost, and we will continue to do so. EU citizens
treatment and non-discrimination are protected in future. are our friends, our family members and our colleagues.
The clause will, for example, make sure that EU citizens They have made and continue to make a hugely important
who are resident before the end of the implementation contribution to our country, our economy, our communities
period can continue to access benefits and services on and our society, and we want them to stay. This Bill will
the same basis as they do now. ensure we can deliver that unequivocal guarantee, both
Clause 15 establishes the Independent Monitoring now and in the future.
Authority for the withdrawal agreement and the EEA EFTA
separation agreement on citizens’ rights. Schedule 2 makes Paul Blomfield: I rise to speak to new clause 5 on the
provision for the authority’s constitution and functions. system for providing settled status, on which we will be
The authority will be fully independent and will have seeking a vote, and to amendments 2, 3, 20 and 21 on
significant powers to receive complaints and conduct the right of appeal, as well as amendment 37 on the
inquiries. It will also have the power to bring legal action Independent Monitoring Authority.
325 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 326
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Paul Blomfield] people facing a hostile environment and facing possible
deportation. I have talked to many EU citizens who,
I regret the Minister’s combative response to the hon. despite all the Government’s publicity efforts, are unaware
Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch that the rights they have enjoyed for 30 years need to be
East (Stuart C. McDonald), who made a typically applied for, and I have had to explain to them about
thoughtful and considered contribution that did not how to apply for settled status. The Government have
reflect division across the Committee because, when recognised that, as has the Minister. In an interview
these issues have previously been debated in Parliament, with the German newspaper Die Welt, he said:
considerable concern has been expressed on both sides “If EU citizens have not registered”
about the consequences of getting this wrong. If we do by the deadline for settled status
get it wrong, it will have a significant impact not only on “without an adequate justification, the immigration rules will
EU citizens in the UK and on Brits in Europe but, apply,”
frankly, on our caseload as Members of Parliament. When pressed on whether that would mean deportation,
I believe it is possible to reach agreement on some of he said:
these issues, and it is in that spirit that I address our “Theoretically, yes, we will apply the…rules.”
amendments. On new clause 5, the Minister said that The possibility of people whom we describe as our
providing certainty for EU citizens is central to the neighbours, friends, taxpayers and colleagues being deported
Government’s agenda. The Prime Minister said: exists while we pursue the same approach to settled
“under this Government they”— status as the Government are now.
EU citizens— It is not too late to correct course. In our view, and
that of others proposing similar amendments, a declaratory
“will have the absolute certainty of the right to live and remain.”—
[Official Report, 25 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 1459.]
system is the only way to prevent hundreds of thousands
of people from potentially being criminalised and deported.
That seems clear, but the reality of applying for settled Under a declaratory scheme, if somebody does not
status is different. It is a constitutive system in which register for settled status before June 2021, they will not
EU citizens acquire settled status or pre-settled status lose rights; they will simply need to register for the
only by successfully applying for their right to live and Government to provide them with the proof of their
work in the UK post Brexit. New clause 5 seeks to avoid status.
that by making the scheme declaratory, meaning that
EU citizens and family members who meet the eligibility Stuart C. McDonald: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
criteria would automatically have the right to continue for the speech he is making. Does he agree that the
to live and work in the UK and would simply need to Minister is completely wrong to think that a declaratory
register for the purpose of proving their status. system means that fewer people will apply after June
We believe our approach would avoid a repeat of next year? People will still have every incentive to apply
Windrush. The Minister suggested that the Government’s for the settlement scheme, because they will need that
objective is to avoid such a Windrush situation and that proof to avoid the hostile environment and to access the
a declaratory system could encourage a repeat. The NHS, employment and all their other entitlements in
Windrush scandal was caused by a number of factors: this country.
the changing legal environment for people who had
Paul Blomfield: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely
lived here for decades; the 2012 introduction of the hostile
right to say that there would be every incentive to apply,
environment; the lack of record keeping by the Home
because without the proof these people will not be able
Office both under this Government and when we were
to exercise their rights. We are simply seeking to ensure,
in power—I am not trying to score party points; and by
through our new clause, that they do not lose their
Home Office staff being incentivised by targets and
rights. The approach we are suggesting is explicitly
bonuses to reach deportation targets. But for the Windrush
allowed under the withdrawal agreement. The Government
victims, crucially, there was at least the legal safety net
had a choice about what kind of system they would
of the Immigration Act 1971, so they could seek recourse
implement and, in our view, they chose wrong. We need
against their treatment.
to remember that this is not just about EU citizens in
What the Government are saying is that making the the UK; the largest national group affected by Brexit
EU settlement scheme declaratory would create a second are the 1.2 million British citizens in Europe. The EU
Windrush. They are perversely blaming the scandal—it and the individual member states, not all of which have
was a scandal, as the Minister recognises—on that met our expectations, have been clear that rights granted
safety net, which is a fundamental misunderstanding. to UK citizens will be based on reciprocity. The Minister
They are saying that the way to avoid another Windrush is right to want to see other countries stepping up to the
is to remove the safety net that the Windrush victims mark, but that will not be assisted if we reduce rights of
faced. citizens within the UK, because that will risk a reduction
No system will get 100% of those eligible to apply, of rights of citizens across the EU27. So a declaratory
and I recognise the Minister’s point about the Government’s scheme for EU citizens will be good not only for those
efforts to ensure that as many apply as possible. I take here, but for UK citizens living in Europe.
his point that 2.8 million have already done so, and I am I wish to move on to another aspect of the problems
sure many more will apply by the deadline of June 2021, with the settlement scheme. The Minister said that
but not everybody will. The Government do not even 2.8 million have applied and he went on, unintentionally,
have a target for how many people they think should be I am sure, to give the wrong impression about the
eligible to apply. If only 3% of the estimated 3.5 million granting of status, because he said that 2.5 million had
EU nationals living in Britain fail to apply, which is not been granted status—that is correct, but it is not the
beyond the bounds of possibility, it will leave 100,000 status they had applied for. The most recent statistics
327 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 328
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
show that almost half of the applicants for settled We know that particular groups are at a higher risk of
status are being granted pre-settled status, which comes not registering—for example, older people, children in
with substantially fewer rights; it is a temporary form of care, those with lower language skills, or non-EEA
leave lasting up to five years—[Interruption.] It is not citizens who are dependent on an EU family member.
indefinite leave to remain. The scheme makes it more difficult for women and
disabled people to secure their correct status and it is
Brandon Lewis: You are misleading people— therefore likely to be causing discrimination. However,
the Government have not put in place the tools to
Paul Blomfield: In a moment, I will ask the Minister monitor the scheme effectively; they are not collecting
to come back on me on some of these points and he equalities data; and despite my requesting it several
might want to respond on that. In addition to the cliff times over a lengthy period, they have still not published
edge at the end of 2021, when anyone who has not their equalities impact assessment.
applied to the settlement scheme will face possible Clearly, it is also essential that the EU settlement
deportation, pre-settled status creates hundreds of scheme is properly monitored and the withdrawal agreement
thousands of individual cliff edges when people come sets up the Independent Monitoring Authority for that
to the point of confirming their individual position, purpose—it is charged with overseeing the Government’s
because it does not provide—[Interruption.] I see my implementation of the citizens’ rights section of the
friend and former Committee colleague the hon. Member agreement. As set up in schedule 2, the IMA will be
for Worcester (Mr Walker) looking puzzled about that, neither independent of the Government nor empowered
but if pre-settled status does not provide a permanent to hold them to account. The Government have used
right to remain, that is granted only at the point at this Bill to further weaken the authority by permitting
which settled status is gained. We are creating hundreds its functions to be delegated by secondary legislation.
of thousands of individual cliff edges. Our amendment 37 would ensure that if the Government
The campaign group the3million has shared one case intend to modify or abolish the IMA, that would be
with me that illustrates many of the problems with done only through primary legislation. We would ask
settled status. It involves an older Dutch woman who the Government to look seriously at that proposal, as
has been living in the UK for decades. Despite her living well as the other amendments tabled by other Opposition
at the same address for more than 30 years, and paying parties on the IMA.
council tax, income tax and NI, the online system could I am coming to a conclusion, so I wonder whether the
not find a trace of her, so she was forced to trawl Minister wants to intervene on the point I made to him.
through paperwork to provide evidence of seven years [Interruption.] He is going to come back later in the
of residency. For some of those years she had saved debate, and that is fine. My concluding point is simply
council tax bills, but she had to find at least six bank that the Committee needs to be mindful that the rights
statements for each of the other years. She then faced and position of 5 million citizens are at risk over
huge difficulties scanning and uploading the documents. Brexit—those in this country and those British in
After she had eventually sent them off, she waited Europe—so it is essential that we get this process right.
several weeks for a response, only to be told that the Our proposals would ensure that every eligible EU
Home Office required more evidence. After another citizen and family member automatically has the right
difficult process of finding and submitting documents, to stay here, which the Government are not providing
she was finally granted settled status, but this woman for in this Bill. We would put their right to appeal in law
has said that she could not have done it without help, and ensure that the IMA can properly hold the Government
and her journey shows that although the app may be to account. We hope that the House will support us on
simple for the most straightforward of cases, as soon as new clause 5 and we ask the Government to look
somebody faces difficulties, it can be immensely difficult seriously at the other issues we have raised.
to resolve them and secure the right status.
Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con): I am pleased to
7.45 pm speak in support of clause 7 and part 3, and I support
That is also why it is important to have the right to all the comments made by the Minister. When I served
challenge individual decisions. Under the withdrawal as a Minister in the Department for Exiting the European
agreement, the Government agree to ensure that EU Union, I was responsible for drafting much of the Bill,
citizens have a right of appeal against any decision to and I am glad that a lot of it has survived my absence
refuse settled status. Clause 11 of the agreement specifically from the Government. I pay tribute to the Front-Bench
confers powers for Ministers to make regulations providing team, to parliamentary counsel and to the officials for
for appeal rights, but this Bill does not confirm the the drafting of a complex and critical piece of legislation.
provision of appeal rights for all applicants. To that end, In preparing the Bill, we conducted considerable
amendment 2 seeks to clarify that EU citizens have the engagement with the charitable sector, representatives
right to appeal a decision on settled or pre-settled of EU citizens and the legal sector to identify their
status. Clearly, the Government are not intending to concerns so that we could design a new framework that
accept any amendments, so I would welcome the Minister would not only command their confidence but, above
intervening to confirm today on the record that the all, work.
right of appeal will be created using powers under the I should say at the outset that with Brexit, free
withdrawal agreement and that it will cover all those in movement will obviously come to an end. That is one
the UK, particularly those who came under the Zambrano reason many people voted to leave the European Union,
and Surinder Singh routes. Would he like to intervene? myself included. I am the child of immigrants, yet I do
[Interruption] He indicates that he will come back at a not have a problem with saying that it is right that our
later stage, and I would be grateful for that. democratic institutions, our UK Government and the
329 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 330
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Suella Braverman] Stuart C. McDonald: I accept all that, just as the
Opposition spokesperson accepted all that—in general,
British people have control over migration, not Brussels, all is going well—but the difference between us is on the
the EU Commission or the EU Parliament. Everyone consequences of not applying. Under our system, people
in the House should welcome that fundamental aspect could still apply for years to come; under the Government’s
of the EU Brexit project if we are truly to reflect the proposed system they will not be able to. Overnight,
desires and needs of those who send us here. there will be tens—probably hundreds—of thousands
With the ending of the free movement of people, I do of people without status. How many people do the
not think we can be in any doubt about the Government’s Government expect to be in that situation, and what
commitment to safeguarding the position and rights of should happen to them?
the 3 million or so EU citizens who are already living
and working here. We want them to stay, as has been Suella Braverman: It is important for any system to
said so many times; we value their immense contribution; have robust deadlines and to have consequences if deadlines
and we want to make Brexit as easy as possible for them. are not met. Importantly, though, there is a grace period
in the legislation that allows considerably for people
I am glad about the proposals that provide for the
being late or delayed in making their application. That
legal rights of EU citizens, their access to healthcare
strikes the right balance by ensuring robustness but
and social security, recognition of their professional
making allowances for those who might not get there in
qualifications, and their employment and equalities rights.
time.
The Bill will enable them to continue to live their lives
as they do now. It is this Bill that provides for the Thirdly, we know that the system is working because
groundbreaking Independent Monitoring Authority, which EU citizens and those who work for them have told us
is a hugely important proposal that will reflect our so. Charities such as the East European Resource Centre
watertight commitment to EU citizens. and the Refugee and Migrant Centre, which receives
Home Office funding and has helped thousands of EU
First, the scheme is working. The Minister himself
citizens and their families, have welcomed the operation
has overseen the roll-out of the settled status scheme for
of the scheme so far.
years now. As of October 2019, more than 1 million
people had been granted settled or pre-settled status Lastly, the significance of the Independent Monitoring
under the EU settlement scheme. That milestone came Authority cannot be diminished. It represents not just
four months after the scheme fully launched in March the legal protections that are offered and provided for in
last year. That is an excellent start, and I pay tribute to the Bill, but a cultural change at the Home Office and in
the Home Office and all those involved in such an Government towards migrants. It represents a culture
immense administrative task. of protection and safeguarding and of enabling people
to know their rights and exercise them.
Secondly, the scheme is working because it is practical
and user friendly. The EU settlement scheme is designed Much has been said about avoiding the mistakes of
to make it straightforward for EU citizens and their Windrush, and I can see exactly why people fear history
families to stay in the UK after Brexit. They need only repeating itself. My parents emigrated to this country
to complete three key steps: prove their identity, show from Commonwealth countries at the same time as the
that they live in the UK and declare any criminal Windrush generation and could have easily been caught
convictions. A wide range of support is available for EU up in the mistakes and consequent problems. When I
citizens and their families, including a dedicated settlement was a barrister, I did a lot of work in immigration law,
resolution centre and 300 assisted digital locations to representing the Government in the High Court and in
support those who have limited access to IT, and the immigration tribunals. Of course, any large administrative
Home Office funds a plethora of organisations to help exercise of this scale can be vulnerable to mistakes. This
those citizens who are more vulnerable—the homeless, policy area is heavily legislated for and therefore very
the disabled and the elderly—to navigate the system. complex. Mistakes are made, but there is also abuse of
the rules.
Stuart C. McDonald: I wonder whether the hon. Any system must be light-touch and pragmatic enough
Lady can do something that the Minister could not. to minimise the burdens on those who are directly
During her time in government, did she see an estimate affected and those who have to go through the system,
of the number of EU citizens who, perhaps accidentally but at the same time robust enough and sound enough
or because they did not fully understand their own to prevent such abuse. It is okay to live in an ideal world
immigration situation, will have failed to apply for the and assume that there is no abuse of immigration rules,
scheme by the deadline? Was I right to suggest that it but, unfortunately, the reality—the hon. Member for
will be hundreds of thousands? What should happen to Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart
them? C. McDonald) will know this from his experience in the
sector—is that there is abuse. In recent times, we have
Suella Braverman: I will come back to that point, but faced unsubstantiated claims and unjustified appeals,
of course any system will have the challenge of reaching and thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money has been
everybody affected by it. That is why the Government used to perpetuate pointless and vexatious claims through
have not held back at all in coming forward with the immigration system and the High Court.
outreach, engagement and the publicity and advertising The Government are highly cognisant of their obligations
campaign, and with the resources made available to the to EU citizens. It has to be said that even without the
millions of EU citizens who are affected. We need only IMA there would be many avenues of legal redress for
look at the numbers to see that the uptake rate is so far EU citizens—appeal rights and judicial review are enshrined
very encouraging. We should judge it on the evidence, not only in the Bill, but in common law—but the
not fear speculative future possibilities. Government have gone further. They are committing to
331 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 332
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
setting up an independent watchdog specifically— Christine Jardine: I thank the hon. Member for his
exclusively—for EU citizens to monitor the application point, but what I did was promise them that I would
of the rules, carry out inquiries, take up judicial review fight for their rights in this country. I would fight for
and represent EU citizens, be their collective voice and them to have the automatic—[Interruption.] No, I was
ensure that mistakes are remedied swiftly. It will be not scaremongering. I promised them that I would do
thanks to the IMA that a Windrush-type scandal will what I am doing tonight. I said that I would stand in
be avoided, EU citizens will have a voice and the system this House and call for them to have the automatic right
will improve and serve people. That is a step change—a to stay in this country—this country, where they have
sign of the political will to get it right and drive forward lived, where their parents have contributed and paid
change. taxes—without having to apply and face the fear of
Leaving the European Union presents us with myriad deportation if they failed. That is what I promised.
opportunities to take back democratic control of our Our economy—our demographic—demands that we
migration policy—something that we should welcome encourage people to come here and contribute, bolster
and see as an opportunity for our country. I commend our workforce and fill the skills gap that we see in the
the Bill and the measures on EU citizens to the Committee. NHS. That is why, as I promised that teenager and the
many constituents who have come to me, I will fight to
8 pm safeguard the rights of all EU citizens in the United
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I rise to Kingdom, and of those UK citizens who have made
support Labour’s new clause 5 and to press to a vote my their lives across the EU, by asking for reciprocity. That
own party’s new clause 34, which would create a right of is why we have tabled new clause 34 to create a right of
appeal when settled status was refused. appeal if an application for settled status is refused.
Shortly before the general election, I visited a school These people deserve so much better than what is being
in my constituency. During the usual chat with students offered by this Government.
about what they would do after their exams, what On 13 December, following the general election, I
careers they would pursue and whether they would go thought about how that teenager and so many other
to university, one girl told me that she was worried people who have come to this country must have felt.
about her future. She wanted to go to university, but she What does the future now hold for her and her siblings
was afraid that she would not be able to. She had lived and for so many others in my constituency and across
in Edinburgh most of her life, but she and her parents the country? I am talking about people who, through no
were from a different part of the European Union and fault of their own, have had the security, which the hon.
they did not feel secure about what would happen Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch
to them if Brexit went ahead. This is the only country East (Stuart C. McDonald) mentioned, ripped from
that she really knows, and her parents did not know them.
where they stood because of the uncertainty and the Many of those people will vote with their feet. We
difficulties that they saw with the settled status proposals. will lose people in an exodus that shames us. We will
She is not the only one. lose people who make a valuable contribution to our
Like so many in this place, I have colleagues, friends education system and our health service—something
and many, many constituents who have made their lives that shames this country. People will leave their lives
here. These are not the people who, as this Government and their livelihoods because they do not feel welcome.
shamelessly claimed during the election campaign, cost The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) accused
us billions, put pressure on public services and strain on me of scaremongering. The rhetoric of his party during
school places, and led to more crime. These claims were the election, demonising people and driving us towards
made despite the evidence from migration advisory a scandal that will dwarf Windrush, was far from
services, which showed the opposite to be the case. acceptable. It is not good enough. The Minister talked
These are people who came to this country to work tonight about safeguarding rights, but if he really wants
and pay taxes. Many were part of the hugely valuable to do that and if he really wants to respect the people
workforce in our NHS, our university sector and major who have come here and contributed to our being the
private companies. They deserve to have this country fifth largest economy in the world, make their right to
recognise that and respect their rights. This Government stay here automatic—and do it now.
should do that by standing by the promise that was
made to those people by the Prime Minister when he
entered Downing Street. That is why I and the Liberal Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/
Democrats will be supporting the Labour party’s new Co-op): I thank you, Sir George, and the many Members
clause 5 to give automatic rights to EU citizens, rather who have made contributions today. Some really important
than them having to apply for settled status with the points have been made on all the amendments on this
potential of facing deportation if they do not. That is crucial subject, which many of us who served on the
no way for this or any other Government or any other Home Affairs Committee in the previous Parliament
country to treat people. examined in great detail. The Minister gave a rosy
depiction of how the scheme is working and how everything
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): It is incredibly will function. Of course, we would all like to see people
important that we take every opportunity to reassure register for the scheme and get the right information,
EU nationals who, as the hon. Member rightly says, are and we would all like to see more digital systems that
so valued in our country. In those circumstances, did work for everybody. The reality, though, is somewhat
she take the opportunity to give that reassurance to her different, as those of us who have regular daily experiences
constituents and say that if they simply applied for with the immigration system on behalf of our constituents,
settled status, it would be vanishingly unlikely for them and who have seen the many pieces of evidence that we
to have any difficulty staying in the UK? took on the Home Affairs Committee, recognise.
333 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 334
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Stephen Doughty] When we are talking about such a fundamental thing
as the right to live, work and exercise rights in this
The amendments that have been tabled, including by country, which many EU citizens should have under
my party’s Front-Bench team, which I support, are this legislation and deserve, we have to ensure that there
there to improve the system and ensure that it actually is back-up. We have our birth certificates and passports—
delivers the rights that were promised to EU citizens physical documents for the most crucial aspects of our
and EEA citizens who have been resident in this country rights and citizenship rights in this country. I caution
for many years and who have, as many have said in this the Minister: when the mistakes happen—the inevitable
debate, made huge contributions to our communities breakdown, a cyber-attack on the system or the system
and to our country as a whole. Certainly in my own becoming unavailable—what will happen to the people
constituency, the contribution of EU citizens over many who get caught up in them? All those mistakes will
decades has been immense. Over the past few years, generate not only a huge cost for the Government in
many constituents have come to me with concerns rectifying them in due course, but great harm and
about the scheme, including those that are reflected in concern to the individuals involved. Anyone who deals
the amendments that many of us are supporting this with the immigration system on a weekly basis, as many
evening. of us do, can point to myriad examples.
We are not scaremongering if we look at the record of There is also the crucial issue of numbers, which the
the Home Office and its continued failures on a series of hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch
issues. We have only to look back to 2017, when the East (Stuart C. McDonald), who served with me on the
Home Office sent letters to 100 EU citizens telling them Home Affairs Committee, mentioned. No exercise on
that they had to leave the UK immediately—an episode this scale has been attempted before the registration of
for which the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Member millions of individuals under this system. Problems are
for Maidenhead (Mrs May), had to apologise in 2018. inevitably going to occur, not least when the Government
Members of Parliament were sent letters about the themselves cannot tell us exactly how many EU and
importance of applying for the EU settlement scheme, EEA citizens are lawfully resident in the UK. They also
even though they were not EU nationals. It was an cannot tell us—this has been asked on a number of
extraordinary situation, which the then Home Secretary occasions—how many people they estimate will not
had to explain. have applied by the deadline that is now being put in
One has only to look at the regular monthly statistics place. I find it deeply worrying that the Government
from the Home Office to see the number of cases of propose to implement a policy without even knowing
wrongful deportations and wrongful detentions as a the number of people that it is going to affect. We do
result of the hostile environment policy and as a result not want to see the unlawful detentions and deportations
of mistakes and problems. That is why appeal rights are of individuals that we have sadly seen in the past, nor
so crucial. If we look at the compensation pay-outs that the harm they cause to the individuals whose rights are
are being made when the Home Office makes mistakes, affected.
we can see how much this is costing the Government. This issue goes back to some fundamental promises
We have all those examples and, of course, the example that were made—not only by the current Prime Minister,
of the Windrush scandal, which was so shocking and so but by the previous Prime Minister and by those who
shaming to our country. People who had contributed to advocated leaving in the first place. The3million campaign,
our country over so many years were treated in such an which has done so much good to highlight the concerns
incredible way. With all those examples ringing in our of those affected by these changes, rightly points out
ears, we should be taking these issues incredibly seriously. that it was made clear during the 2016 referendum that
I urge the Minister and the Government, and those in there should be
the other place when they are examining these parts of “no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the
the Bill, to look seriously at ways in which this legislation UK…EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to
can be improved, so that we can deliver on the commitments remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they
that have been made. I do not doubt the Minister’s are at present.”
intent. I am sure that he is sincere in wanting to provide That was a clear promise and a solemn undertaking, and
EU citizens with the rights that they deserve, but the it is one that has been repeated by the Prime Minister
reality is often different. and Ministers since. I have no doubt that the Minister
I want to raise with the Minister the specific point intends these measures in good faith, but the reality of
about physical documentation. Of course we all want to accessing the scheme, demonstrating those rights and
see digitalisation; we all want to see more efficient systems. being able to prove that they are being lawfully exercised
We all want to see a system where we can quickly get will be very different. I think we will be picking up the
information—whether that is employers, housing providers pieces of this in years to come, so I urge the Minister to
or other providers of services—to ensure that people look carefully at these amendments.
receive the things that they are entitled to under the law.
But the reality is, as we all know, that these systems The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means
break down. There are mistakes in them and names are (Sir George Howarth): I call Sir Desmond Swayne, who
often rendered incorrectly. What is the back-up? What is known for many things in the House, not least his
will happen when somebody is trying to apply for a brevity.
house, access medical services, apply for a job or apply
for an education that they are entitled to in this country Sir Desmond Swayne: Thank you, Sir George.
and the system breaks down? The computer may say I am persuaded that the amendments are unnecessary,
no, or the blue screen of death may come up on the and I support the provisions of the Bill. But just one
computer. Whatever the problem, we all know that word of caution: I have received a number of inquiries
these things fail. from constituents—European citizens—who clearly have
335 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 336
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
not been reached at all by any of the outreach, such are because another scandal is avoidable. This situation is
the basic questions that they ask. Indeed, I received one unacceptable, totally avoidable and easily remedied. I
such inquiry today. On that score, when I think about it, therefore invite the Minister to accept new clauses 5,
I do not know whether I have been living in a bubble, 18 and 34.
but I have not seen any of that outreach at all myself.
Admittedly, I have not been looking for it. Nevertheless, Brandon Lewis: I will be brief; I just want to respond
I just ask Ministers to re-examine the outreach that to a couple of points that have been raised during the
there has been and to reassure their level of confidence debate. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central
that it is adequate. (Paul Blomfield) quoted me during an interview some
time ago—with a German journalist, if I recall correctly.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): I Sadly, he did not give the whole quote, so colleagues are
speak in support of new clauses 5 and 18. Constituents probably not quite aware of the point I was making,
have contacted me to raise serious concerns about the which was that the whole point of the settled status
rights of their family and friends who are EU citizens scheme is to ensure that nobody is left behind and all
and who are eligible for settled status, but who may not rights are properly protected. That is why not only are
be able to complete their application on time or may be we running the scheme until the end of July1 2021, but
unaware of the deadline. This is a particular issue we have also said—as I said at the Dispatch Box again
among elderly EU citizens, some of whom may have serious today—that we will be looking to grant settled status to
medical conditions that impair their ability to complete anybody who comes forward after that stage who has
forms. One constituent told me about her mother, who not acquired settled status because they have not applied
is in her 90s and came to the UK as a refugee from for it for a good, reasonable reason. This scheme is
Poland just after the second world war, but who has never based on a very different principle.
needed to apply for citizenship. She now has Alzheimer’s
and, had it not been for the help of her daughter, would Yasmin Qureshi: Will the Minister give way?
be at risk of losing her rights through not being able to
apply for settled status. No doubt there are others like Brandon Lewis: No, I will not be giving way at the
her. moment.
As the Minister stated, we want to avoid another The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth
Windrush situation. The IMA is no substitute for a (Stephen Doughty) said that the whole process is different
safety net to protect the rights that people are at risk of from previous systems. We are looking to grant status. I
losing. It has been suggested that legal redress can be give great credit to the superb team of Home Office civil
achieved outside a tribunal system, but what would be servants, particularly in Liverpool, who have delivered
the cost? Huge fees are incurred by people trying to get this scheme—a scheme that, as the hon. Gentleman
redress for their legal rights; such fees can be astronomical. said, is unprecedented in now having taken more than
One of my constituents, Martin Janu, has a wife who is 2.8 million applications and processed some 2.5 million
Spanish. She is fearful of the potential erosion of her of them. To be clear with colleagues, of the almost
rights under settled status, so she has applied for citizenship, 2.5 million applications that have been processed, I can
but that is at the cost of £1,400. Having such high fees confirm that only five have been refused—all on grounds
for applications for citizenship and visitor visas is nothing of serious criminality. It is right that we do those checks
more than a racket by the Government, who are ripping and ensure that there is proper evidence.
off applicants. Let me go a bit further in response to the comments
of the hon. Member for Sheffield Central regarding the
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I thank difference between pre-settled status and settled status.
my hon. Friend for making this case. I had a call three What he said at the Dispatch Box risks creating a
days ago from a constituent who told me that his wife, scaremongering regime that has been portrayed in a
who he has been married to for well over 40 years, is a couple of other speeches this evening. Pre-settled status
French national. She has worked as a teacher in a is a pathway to settled status, ensuring that people who
school here and is now on a pension, but she is worried have lived in this country for five years or more have
about what is going to happen to them. I actually went their rights fully secured. There is no cliff edge. When
on to the Home Office website and tried to guide them somebody has lived in this country for five years or
through what they need to do, but they are worried more, having got pre-settled status, they can move straight
about what is happening to them and about the costs of to full settled status; their rights will be the same. They
all these processes. It is very important that we have will be protected from the moment they have pre-settled
safeguards in place. status, and the evidence is an important part of that.
The hon. Gentleman asked a very specific question
8.15 pm
about appeal rights. Yes, appeal rights apply to all cases
Bambos Charalambous: My hon. Friend makes an under the new settlement scheme. That also goes to the
excellent point. We need to have safety nets in place, point raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West
and these new clauses would provide the safety nets (Christine Jardine). My hon. Friend the Member for
needed to ensure that people’s rights are protected, no Fareham (Suella Braverman) is absolutely right: we are
matter how few people might be affected. determined to make sure that we are delivering on the
In short, EU citizens who have been here lawfully and rights of EU citizens and that we in this country play
qualify for settled status should not have their rights our part in delivering on the promises we made.
limited by any barriers, such as time limitation or fees.
If the Government do not to listen to these warnings, there Paul Blomfield: When the Minister says that this will
is a very real risk of another Windrush. The Government apply to all citizens, does he include those who came
will then be found to have been asleep at the wheel, under the Zambrano and Surinder Singh routes?
1.[Official Report, 13 January 2020, Vol. 669, c. 2MC.]
337 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 338
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Brandon Lewis: Yes, absolutely. Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for New Clauses 8 to 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) that we are always Schedule 1 agreed to.
reviewing the outreach work. The Home Secretary and Clause 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
I are particularly focused on this work to make sure that Schedule 2 agreed to.
it is not just giving good value for money for the
taxpayer but is also reaching the hardest-to-reach places Clauses 16 and 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
and communities in the country. We are working with The First Deputy Chairman: Before I put the Question
some 57 voluntary organisations around the country on the first new clause to be voted on, I should inform
and with commercial and public sector organisations Members that the split of letters at the desks in the
that employ large numbers of EU citizens, and we will Division Lobbies has changed slightly—there’s a treat!
be looking to continue that work and drive it further Members whose surname begins with G will now need
and further. to go to the middle desk instead of the left-hand desk.
It is important that we encourage people to apply for There have been no other changes. The distribution of
this settled status. It is simple, quick and easy; it delivers names is different in the new Parliament and the revised
on people’s rights; and it delivers on our promises. That lettering should mean that the queues at the desks are
is why we will not accept any amendments or new more even.
clauses this evening.
New Clause 5
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means
PROTECTING EU CITIZENS’ RIGHTS
(Sir George Howarth): Order. I say for the benefit of
new Members in particular that although the Minister “(1) This section applies to—
has responded to the debate, I am now going to call the (a) European Union citizens having the right to reside
mover of the lead amendment to conclude and respond permanently in the UK according to Article 15 (“Rights
of permanent residence”) of the Withdrawal Agreement;
to the debate.
(b) persons to whom the provisions in (a) do not apply but
who are eligible for indefinite leave to enter or remain,
Stuart C. McDonald: Thank you, Sir George. I thank or limited leave to enter or remain by virtue of residence
all hon. Members for their contributions to this robust scheme immigration rules (see section 17).
and very helpful debate in which I think every single (2) A person to which this section applies has the rights and
speaker spoke of the contribution that EU nationals make obligations provided in Article 12 and Title II Part II ‘Citizens’
to this country and the importance of protecting their Rights’ of the Withdrawal Agreement.
rights. (3) The Secretary of State must by regulations make
So far so good, but beyond that, there are fundamental provision—
differences about how best we do it. Opposition Members (a) implementing article 18(4) of the withdrawal agreement
say that we must automatically protect EU nationals’ (right of eligible citizens to receive a residence document),
rights in law, so that nobody will lose their rights overnight, including making provision for a physical document
while Government Members say that they must apply providing proof of residence;
to stay. The Government have not challenged at all our (b) implementing article 17(4) of the EEA EFTA separation
assertion that that almost certainly means that tens, agreement (right of eligible citizens to receive a residence
document) including making provision for a physical
probably hundreds, of thousands will potentially lose
document providing proof of residence;
their rights overnight. The Minister said that there will
(c) implementing article 16(4) of the Swiss citizens’ rights
be a period in which anyone with a good, reasonable reason
agreement (right of eligible citizens to receive a residence
for missing a deadline will be able to get that all fixed. document) including making provision for a physical
We are possibly talking about a six-figure number—and document providing proof of residence.
what is a good, reasonable reason? I gave two hypothetical (4) No provision of this or any other enactment, or adopted
examples in my speech, one being a French lady who has under this or any other enactment, may be used to require
been here since 1970, has retired, had permanent residence European Union nationals and their family members, or nationals
under the old EU scheme, and does not think she needs of Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland and their
to apply. There are lots of folk in that boat. Is that a family members, who reside in the United Kingdom immediately
good, reasonable reason—that she did not think she prior to the end of the implementation period, to apply for a new
had to apply? What about the Polish guy that I cited? He residence status under Article 18(1) of the Withdrawal Agreement,
was born in the United Kingdom. He therefore thought or to introduce a deadline for applications under residence scheme
immigration rules or relevant entry clearance rules.
that he was British because his father was British, but
actually, because of his parents’ marital status at the (5) Residence scheme immigration rules and relevant entry
time of his birth, he is not British. He fails to apply. Is clearance immigration rules may not be amended to provide that
any person who benefited or is eligible to benefit under those
that a good, reasonable reason—that he thought he was rules on the day on which this Act is passed benefits any less than
British but was wrong about nationality law? he benefited or was eligible to benefit on the day on which this
There will be tens of thousands of cases just like that, Act is passed.”—(Paul Blomfield.)
and the Government have done absolutely nothing to This new clause provides for all EU citizens who are resident in the
reassure us about the cliff edge that awaits us. Amendment 5 UK before exit day to have the right of permanent residence,
would go some way towards solving that by putting in whether or not they have been exercising treaty rights, and makes
place a declaratory system. The Opposition’s new clause 5 sure that every person who is entitled to settled status has the same
is more comprehensive. I therefore beg to ask leave to rights.
withdraw the amendment so that we can support the Brought up, and read the First time.
new clause instead. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The Committee divided: Ayes 252, Noes 342.
339 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 340
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Division No. 3] [8.24 pm Lake, Ben Rayner, Angela
Lammy, rh Mr David Reed, Mr Steve
AYES Lavery, Ian Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast
Law, Chris by Bambos Charalambous)
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Doogan, Dave
Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reeves, Rachel
Abrahams, Debbie Dorans, Allan
Lewis, Clive Reynolds, Jonathan
Ali, Rushanara Doughty, Stephen
Linden, David Ribeiro-Addy, Bell
Ali, Tahir Dowd, Peter
Lloyd, Tony Rimmer, Ms Marie
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Dromey, Jack
Long Bailey, Rebecca Rodda, Matt
Amesbury, Mike Duffield, Rosie
Lucas, Caroline Russell-Moyle, Lloyd
Anderson, Fleur Eagle, Ms Angela
Lynch, Holly Saville Roberts, rh Liz
Antoniazzi, Tonia Eagle, Maria
MacAskill, Kenny Shah, Naz
Ashworth, Jonathan Eastwood, Colum
MacNeil, Angus Brendan Sharma, Mr Virendra
Bardell, Hannah Edwards, Jonathan
Madders, Justin Sheerman, Mr Barry
Barker, Paula Efford, Clive
Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sheppard, Tommy
Beckett, rh Margaret Elliott, Julie
Mahmood, Shabana Siddiq, Tulip
Begum, Apsana Elmore, Chris
Malhotra, Seema Slaughter, Andy
Benn, rh Hilary Esterson, Bill
Maskell, Rachael Smith, Alyn
Betts, Mr Clive Evans, Chris
Matheson, Christian Smith, Cat
Black, Mhairi Farron, Tim
McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Nick
Blackford, rh Ian Farry, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain Smyth, Karin
Blackman, Kirsty Fellows, Marion
McDonald, Andy Sobel, Alex
Blake, Olivia Ferrier, Margaret
McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Spellar, rh John
Blomfield, Paul Flynn, Stephen
McDonald, Stuart C. Starmer, rh Keir
Bonnar, Steven Fovargue, Yvonne
McDonnell, rh John Stephens, Chris
Brabin, Tracy Foxcroft, Vicky
McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stevens, Jo
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Foy, Mary Kelly
McGinn, Conor Stone, Jamie
Brennan, Kevin Furniss, Gill
McGovern, Alison Stringer, Graham
Brock, Deidre Gibson, Patricia
McLaughlin, Anne Sultana, Zarah
Brown, Alan Gill, Preet Kaur
McMahon, Jim Tami, rh Mark
Brown, Ms Lyn Glindon, Mary
McMorrin, Anna Tarry, Sam
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Grady, Patrick
Mearns, Ian Thewliss, Alison
Bryant, Chris Grant, Peter
Mishra, Navendu Thomas, Gareth
Buck, Ms Karen Gray, Neil
Monaghan, Carol
Burgon, Richard Green, Kate Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Moran, Layla
Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Lilian Thompson, Owen
Morden, Jessica
Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Margaret Thomson, Richard
Morgan, Mr Stephen
Byrne, rh Liam Griffith, Nia Thornberry, rh Emily
Morris, Grahame
Cadbury, Ruth Gwynne, Andrew Timms, rh Stephen
Murray, Ian
Callaghan, Amy Haigh, Louise Trickett, Jon
Murray, James
Cameron, Dr Lisa Hamilton, Fabian Twigg, Derek
Nandy, Lisa
Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanna, Claire Twist, Liz
Newlands, Gavin
Carden, Dan Hardy, Emma Vaz, rh Valerie
Nichols, Charlotte
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harman, rh Ms Harriet Webbe, Claudia
Nicolson, John
Chamberlain, Wendy Harris, Carolyn West, Catherine
Norris, Alex
Champion, Sarah Hayes, Helen
O’Hara, Brendan Western, Matt
Chapman, Douglas Healey, rh John
Olney, Sarah Whitehead, Dr Alan
Charalambous, Bambos Hendrick, Sir Mark
Onwurah, Chi Whitford, Dr Philippa
Cherry, Joanna Hendry, Drew
Oppong-Asare, Abena Whitley, Mick
Clark, Feryal Hill, Mike
Osamor, Kate Whittome, Nadia
Cooper, Daisy Hillier, Meg
Oswald, Kirsten Williams, Hywel
Cooper, Rosie Hobhouse, Wera
Owatemi, Taiwo Wilson, Munira
Cooper, rh Yvette Hodge, rh Dame Margaret
Owen, Sarah Winter, Beth
Cowan, Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Peacock, Stephanie Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Coyle, Neil Hollern, Kate
Pennycook, Matthew
Crawley, Angela Hopkins, Rachel Yasin, Mohammad
Phillips, Jess
Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Hosie, Stewart Zeichner, Daniel
Phillipson, Bridget
cast by Peter Kyle) Huq, Dr Rupa
Pollard, Luke Tellers for the Ayes:
Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine
Powell, Lucy Jeff Smith and
Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan
Qureshi, Yasmin Colleen Fletcher
Cummins, Judith Johnson, Dame Diana
Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Kim
Daby, Janet Jones, Darren NOES
Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, Gerald Adams, Nigel Andrew, Stuart
David, Wayne Jones, rh Mr Kevan Afolami, Bim Ansell, Caroline
Davies, Geraint Jones, Ruth Afriyie, Adam Argar, Edward
Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Sarah
Aiken, Nickie Atherton, Sarah
Day, Martyn Kane, Mike
Aldous, Peter Atkins, Victoria
De Cordova, Marsha Keeley, Barbara
Debbonaire, Thangam Kendall, Liz Allan, Lucy Bacon, Mr Gareth
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Khan, Afzal Amess, Sir David Bacon, Mr Richard
Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kinnock, Stephen Anderson, Lee Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote
Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Anderson, Stuart cast by Leo Docherty)
341 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 342
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Bailey, Shaun Donelan, Michelle Holden, Mr Richard Mohindra, Gagan
Baillie, Siobhan Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollinrake, Kevin Moore, Damien
Baker, Duncan Double, Steve Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Robbie
Baker, Mr Steve Dowden, rh Oliver Holloway, Adam Mordaunt, rh Penny
Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie Holmes, Paul Morris, Anne Marie
Barclay, rh Steve Drax, Richard Howell, John Morris, David
Baron, Mr John Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, James
Bell, Aaron Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Morrissey, Joy
Benton, Scott Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy
Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Mullan, Dr Kieran
Berry, rh Jake Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom Mumby-Croft, Holly
Bhatti, Saqib Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Mundell, rh David
Blackman, Bob Edwards, Ruth Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Blunt, Crispin Ellis, rh Michael Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murrison, rh Dr Andrew
Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkinson, Mark Neill, Sir Robert
Bottomley, Sir Peter Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Nici, Lia
Bowie, Andrew Eustice, George Jenrick, rh Robert Nokes, rh Caroline
Bradley, Ben Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse
Bradley, rh Karen Evans, Mr Nigel Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil
Brady, Sir Graham Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew
Braverman, Suella Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy
Brereton, Jack Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Parish, Neil
Bridgen, Andrew Farris, Laura Jones, Fay Patel, rh Priti
Brine, Steve Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Bristow, Paul Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon Pawsey, Mark
Britcliffe, Sara Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, rh Sir Mike
Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia Penrose, John
Browne, Anthony Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian Percy, Andrew
Bruce, Fiona Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian Philp, Chris
Buchan, Felicity Fox, rh Dr Liam Kruger, Danny Pincher, rh Christopher
Buckland, rh Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Poulter, Dr Dan
Burghart, Alex Frazer, Lucy Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Pow, Rebecca
Burns, rh Conor Freeman, George Lamont, John Prentis, Victoria
Butler, Rob Freer, Mike Largan, Robert Pritchard, Mark
Cairns, rh Alun Fuller, Richard Latham, Mrs Pauline Quin, Jeremy
Carter, Andy Fysh, Mr Marcus Leadsom, rh Andrea Quince, Will
Cartlidge, James Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian Randall, Tom
Cash, Sir William Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew Redwood, rh John
Cates, Miriam Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Brandon Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Caulfield, Maria Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Dr Julian Richards, Nicola
Chalk, Alex Gideon, Jo Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richardson, Angela
Chishti, Rehman Glen, John Loder, Chris Roberts, Rob
Chope, Sir Christopher Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence
Churchill, Jo Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco Robinson, Mary
Clark, rh Greg Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Rosindell, Andrew
Clarke, Mr Simon Grant, Mrs Helen by Lee Rowley) Ross, Douglas
Clarke, Theo Gray, James Lopresti, Jack Rowley, Lee
Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Russell, Dean
Clarkson, Chris Green, Chris Loughton, Tim Rutley, David
Cleverly, rh James Green, rh Damian Mackinlay, Craig Sambrook, Gary
Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Griffith, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn Saxby, Selaine
Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffiths, Kate Maclean, Rachel Scully, Paul
Colburn, Elliot Grundy, James Mak, Alan Seely, Bob
Collins, Damian Gullis, Jonathan Malthouse, Kit Selous, Andrew
Costa, Alberto Halfon, rh Robert Mangnall, Anthony Shannon, Jim
Courts, Robert Hall, Luke Mann, Scott Shapps, rh Grant
Coutinho, Claire Hammond, Stephen Marson, Julie Sharma, rh Alok
Crabb, rh Stephen Hancock, rh Matt Mayhew, Jerome Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg Maynard, Paul Simmonds, David
Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Skidmore, rh Chris
Daly, James Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Karl Smith, Chloe
Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann McPartland, Stephen Smith, Greg
Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon McVey, rh Esther Smith, Henry
Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda
Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben
Davies, Philip Heappey, James Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark
Davis, rh Mr David Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, Jane
Davison, Dehenna Henderson, Gordon Millar, Robin Stevenson, John
Dinenage, Caroline Henry, Darren Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stewart, Iain
Dines, Miss Sarah Higginbotham, Antony Milling, Amanda Stride, rh Mel
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, rh Damian Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian
Docherty, Leo Hoare, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sunak, rh Rishi
343 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 344
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Sunderland, James Warman, Matt Bryant, Chris Greenwood, Lilian
Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Watling, Giles Buck, Ms Karen Greenwood, Margaret
Syms, Sir Robert Webb, Suzanne Burgon, Richard Griffith, Nia
Thomas, Derek Whately, Helen Butler, Dawn Gwynne, Andrew
Throup, Maggie Wheeler, Mrs Heather Byrne, Ian Haigh, Louise
Timpson, Edward Whittaker, Craig Byrne, rh Liam Hamilton, Fabian
Tolhurst, Kelly Whittingdale, rh Mr John Cadbury, Ruth Hanna, Claire
Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill Callaghan, Amy Hardy, Emma
Tomlinson, Michael Wild, James Cameron, Dr Lisa Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Tracey, Craig Williams, Craig Campbell, rh Sir Alan Harris, Carolyn
Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Williamson, rh Gavin Carden, Dan Hayes, Helen
Trott, Laura Wilson, rh Sammy Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Healey, rh John
Tugendhat, Tom Wood, Mike Chamberlain, Wendy Hendrick, Sir Mark
Vara, Mr Shailesh Wragg, Mr William Champion, Sarah Hendry, Drew
Vickers, Martin Chapman, Douglas Hill, Mike
Wright, rh Jeremy
Vickers, Matt Charalambous, Bambos Hillier, Meg
Young, Jacob
Wakeford, Christian Cherry, Joanna Hobhouse, Wera
Zahawi, Nadhim
Walker, Sir Charles Clark, Feryal Hodge, rh Dame Margaret
Walker, Mr Robin Tellers for the Noes: Cooper, Daisy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Wallis, Dr Jamie Tom Pursglove and Cooper, Rosie Hollern, Kate
Warburton, David Nigel Huddleston Cooper, rh Yvette Hopkins, Rachel
Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart
Coyle, Neil Huq, Dr Rupa
Question accordingly negatived.
Crawley, Angela Jardine, Christine
Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Jarvis, Dan
New Clause 18 cast by Peter Kyle) Johnson, Dame Diana
FEE LEVELS AND EXEMPTIONS Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Kim
Cryer, John Jones, Darren
‘(1) No person to whom regulations under section 7(1) (as
Cummins, Judith Jones, Gerald
qualified by section 7(2) and 7(3)) apply may be charged a fee to
Cunningham, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan
register as a British citizen that is higher than the cost to the
Secretary of State of exercising the function of registration. Daby, Janet Jones, Ruth
Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, Sarah
(2) No child of a person to whom subsection (1) applies may be David, Wayne Kane, Mike
charged a fee to register as a British citizen if that child is
Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara
receiving the assistance of a local authority.
Davies-Jones, Alex Kendall, Liz
(3) No child of a person to whom subsection (1) applies may Day, Martyn Khan, Afzal
be charged a fee to register as a British citizen that the child or De Cordova, Marsha Kinnock, Stephen
the child’s parent, guardian or carer is unable to afford. Debbonaire, Thangam Kyle, Peter
(4) The Secretary of State must take steps to raise awareness of Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lake, Ben
people to whom this section applies of their rights under the Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lammy, rh Mr David
British Nationality Act 1981 to register as British citizens. Dodds, Anneliese Lavery, Ian
(5) A Minister of the Crown may amend, waive or restrict any Doogan, Dave Law, Chris
requirement of any other person to pay a fee to register as a Dorans, Allan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
British citizen where the Secretary of State considers it appropriate Doughty, Stephen Lewis, Clive
or necessary to do so in consequence of any discrimination Dowd, Peter Linden, David
between people of, or children of people of, differing nationality Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony
or other status.” .—(Stuart C. McDonald.) Duffield, Rosie Long Bailey, Rebecca
This new clause would ensure that persons entitled to benefit from Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Caroline
the citizens’ rights protections in the Bill did not miss out on Eagle, Maria Lynch, Holly
registering as a citizen of the UK because of the level of fee Eastwood, Colum MacAskill, Kenny
currently charged. Edwards, Jonathan MacNeil, Angus Brendan
Brought up, and read the First time. Efford, Clive Madders, Justin
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Shabana
The Committee divided: Ayes 255, Noes 341. Esterson, Bill Malhotra, Seema
Division No. 4] [8.42 pm Evans, Chris Maskell, Rachael
Farron, Tim Matheson, Christian
AYES Farry, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Betts, Mr Clive Ferrier, Margaret McDonagh, Siobhain
Abrahams, Debbie Black, Mhairi Fletcher, Colleen McDonald, Andy
Ali, Rushanara Blackford, rh Ian Flynn, Stephen McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
Ali, Tahir Blackman, Kirsty Fovargue, Yvonne McDonald, Stuart C.
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Blake, Olivia Foxcroft, Vicky McDonnell, rh John
Amesbury, Mike Blomfield, Paul Foy, Mary Kelly McFadden, rh Mr Pat
Anderson, Fleur Bonnar, Steven Furniss, Gill McGinn, Conor
Antoniazzi, Tonia Brabin, Tracy Gibson, Patricia McGovern, Alison
Ashworth, Jonathan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gill, Preet Kaur McLaughlin, Anne
Bardell, Hannah Brennan, Kevin Glindon, Mary McMahon, Jim
Barker, Paula Brock, Deidre Grady, Patrick McMorrin, Anna
Beckett, rh Margaret Brown, Alan Grant, Peter Mearns, Ian
Begum, Apsana Brown, Ms Lyn Gray, Neil Mishra, Navendu
Benn, rh Hilary Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Green, Kate Monaghan, Carol
345 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 346
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Moran, Layla Smith, Alyn Cairns, rh Alun Fuller, Richard
Morden, Jessica Smith, Cat Carter, Andy Fysh, Mr Marcus
Morgan, Mr Stephen Smith, Jeff Cartlidge, James Garnier, Mark
Morris, Grahame Smith, Nick Cash, Sir William Ghani, Ms Nusrat
Murray, Ian Smyth, Karin Cates, Miriam Gibb, rh Nick
Murray, James Sobel, Alex Caulfield, Maria Gibson, Peter
Nandy, Lisa Spellar, rh John Chalk, Alex Gideon, Jo
Newlands, Gavin Starmer, rh Keir Chishti, Rehman Glen, John
Nichols, Charlotte Stephens, Chris Chope, Sir Christopher Goodwill, rh Mr Robert
Nicolson, John Stevens, Jo Churchill, Jo Gove, rh Michael
Norris, Alex Stone, Jamie Clark, rh Greg Graham, Richard
O’Hara, Brendan Stringer, Graham Clarke, Mr Simon Grant, Mrs Helen
Olney, Sarah Sultana, Zarah Clarke, Theo Gray, James
Onwurah, Chi Tami, rh Mark Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grayling, rh Chris
Oppong-Asare, Abena Tarry, Sam Clarkson, Chris Green, Chris
Osamor, Kate Cleverly, rh James Green, rh Damian
Thewliss, Alison
Oswald, Kirsten Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Griffith, Andrew
Thomas, Gareth
Owatemi, Taiwo Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffiths, Kate
Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Owen, Sarah Colburn, Elliot Grundy, James
Thomson, Richard
Peacock, Stephanie Collins, Damian Gullis, Jonathan
Pennycook, Matthew Thornberry, rh Emily
Costa, Alberto Halfon, rh Robert
Phillips, Jess Timms, rh Stephen Courts, Robert Hall, Luke
Phillipson, Bridget Trickett, Jon Coutinho, Claire Hammond, Stephen
Pollard, Luke Twigg, Derek Crabb, rh Stephen Hancock, rh Matt
Powell, Lucy Twist, Liz Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg
Qureshi, Yasmin Vaz, rh Valerie Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark
Rayner, Angela Webbe, Claudia Daly, James Harris, Rebecca
Reed, Mr Steve West, Catherine Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann
Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Western, Matt Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon
by Bambos Charalambous) Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John
Reeves, Rachel Whitford, Dr Philippa Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver
Reynolds, Jonathan Whitley, Mick Davies, Philip Heappey, James
Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Whittome, Nadia Davis, rh Mr David Heaton-Harris, Chris
Rimmer, Ms Marie Williams, Hywel Davison, Dehenna Henderson, Gordon
Rodda, Matt Wilson, Munira Dinenage, Caroline Henry, Darren
Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Winter, Beth Dines, Miss Sarah Higginbotham, Antony
Saville Roberts, rh Liz Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, rh Damian
Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Shah, Naz Docherty, Leo Hoare, Simon
Yasin, Mohammad
Sharma, Mr Virendra Donelan, Michelle Holden, Mr Richard
Zeichner, Daniel
Sheerman, Mr Barry Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollobone, Mr Philip
Sheppard, Tommy Tellers for the Ayes: Double, Steve Holloway, Adam
Siddiq, Tulip Owen Thompson and Dowden, rh Oliver Holmes, Paul
Slaughter, Andy Marion Fellows Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John
Drax, Richard Hudson, Dr Neil
Drummond, Mrs Flick Hughes, Eddie
NOES
Duddridge, James Hunt, Jane
Afolami, Bim Benton, Scott Duguid, David Hunt, rh Jeremy
Afriyie, Adam Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Tom
Ahmad Khan, Imran Berry, rh Jake Dunne, rh Philip Jack, rh Mr Alister
Aiken, Nickie Bhatti, Saqib Eastwood, Mark Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob Edwards, Ruth Jenkin, Sir Bernard
Allan, Lucy Blunt, Crispin Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark
Amess, Sir David Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea
Anderson, Lee Bottomley, Sir Peter Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert
Anderson, Stuart Bowie, Andrew Eustice, George Johnson, Dr Caroline
Andrew, Stuart Bradley, Ben Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth
Ansell, Caroline Bradley, rh Karen Evans, Mr Nigel Johnston, David
Argar, Edward Brady, Sir Graham Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew
Atherton, Sarah Braverman, Suella Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David
Atkins, Victoria Brereton, Jack Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay
Bacon, Mr Gareth Bridgen, Andrew Farris, Laura Jones, Mr Marcus
Bacon, Mr Richard Brine, Steve Fell, Simon Jupp, Simon
Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Bristow, Paul Fletcher, Katherine Kawczynski, Daniel
cast by Leo Docherty) Britcliffe, Sara Fletcher, Mark Kearns, Alicia
Bailey, Shaun Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Nick Keegan, Gillian
Baillie, Siobhan Browne, Anthony Ford, Vicky Knight, Julian
Baker, Duncan Bruce, Fiona Foster, Kevin Kruger, Danny
Baker, Mr Steve Buchan, Felicity Fox, rh Dr Liam Kwarteng, rh Kwasi
Baldwin, Harriett Buckland, rh Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Laing, rh Dame Eleanor
Barclay, rh Steve Burghart, Alex Frazer, Lucy Lamont, John
Baron, Mr John Burns, rh Conor Freeman, George Largan, Robert
Bell, Aaron Butler, Rob Freer, Mike Latham, Mrs Pauline
347 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 348
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Leadsom, rh Andrea Quince, Will Wright, rh Jeremy Tellers for the Noes:
Levy, Ian Randall, Tom Young, Jacob Tom Pursglove and
Lewer, Andrew Redwood, rh John Zahawi, Nadhim Nigel Huddleston
Lewis, rh Brandon Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Lewis, rh Dr Julian Richards, Nicola
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richardson, Angela
Question accordingly negatived.
Loder, Chris Roberts, Rob
Logan, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence New Clause 34
Longhi, Marco Robinson, Mary
Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Rosindell, Andrew SETTLED STATUS: RIGHT TO APPEAL
by Lee Rowley) Ross, Douglas
“(1) A person may appeal against a settled status decision to
Lopresti, Jack Rowley, Lee
the First-tier Tribunal.
Lord, Mr Jonathan Russell, Dean
Loughton, Tim Rutley, David (2) A settled status decision includes a decision—
Mackinlay, Craig Sambrook, Gary (a) to refuse to grant leave to remain under Appendix EU
Mackrory, Cherilyn Saxby, Selaine of the Immigration Rules made under section 3(2) of
Maclean, Rachel Scully, Paul the Immigration Act 1971, or
Mak, Alan Seely, Bob (b) to grant limited leave to remain under Appendix EU of
Malthouse, Kit Selous, Andrew the Immigration Rules made under section 3(2) of the
Mangnall, Anthony Shannon, Jim Immigration Act 1971 to a person who has applied
Mann, Scott Shapps, rh Grant for indefinite leave to remain under that Appendix.
Marson, Julie Sharma, rh Alok (3) An appeal against a decision under subsection 2(b) may be
Mayhew, Jerome Shelbrooke, rh Alec brought only on the grounds that the person is entitled to indefinite
Maynard, Paul Simmonds, David leave to remain under Appendix EU of the Immigration Rules.
McCartney, Jason Skidmore, rh Chris (4) While an appeal under subsection 2(a) is pending, the
McCartney, Karl Smith, Chloe person concerned shall be deemed to have all the rights associated
McPartland, Stephen Smith, Greg with indefinite leave to remain under Appendix EU of the Immigration
McVey, rh Esther Smith, Henry Rules in particular as concerns residence, employment, access to
Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda social security benefits and other services.
Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben (5) While an appeal under subsection 2(b) is pending, the
Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark limited leave to remain granted under Appendix EU to the
Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, Jane Immigration Rules shall continue in force.
Millar, Robin Stevenson, John (6) “Pending” shall have the same meaning for the purposes of
Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stewart, Iain subsections (4) and (5) above as in section 104 of the Nationality,
Milling, Amanda Stride, rh Mel Immigration and Asylum Act 2002.”—(Christine Jardine.)
Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian
This new clause would establish a right to appeal settled status
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sunak, rh Rishi
decisions.
Mohindra, Gagan Sunderland, James
Moore, Damien Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Brought up, and read the First time.
Moore, Robbie Syms, Sir Robert Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
Mordaunt, rh Penny Thomas, Derek
The Committee divided: Ayes 251, Noes 343.
Morris, Anne Marie Throup, Maggie
Morris, David Timpson, Edward Division No. 5] [8.58 pm
Morris, James Tolhurst, Kelly
AYES
Morrissey, Joy Tomlinson, Justin
Morton, Wendy Tomlinson, Michael Abbott, rh Ms Diane Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Mullan, Dr Kieran Tracey, Craig Abrahams, Debbie Bryant, Chris
Mumby-Croft, Holly Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Ali, Rushanara Buck, Ms Karen
Mundell, rh David Trott, Laura Ali, Tahir Burgon, Richard
Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tugendhat, Tom Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Butler, Dawn
Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Amesbury, Mike Byrne, Ian
Neill, Sir Robert Vickers, Martin Anderson, Fleur Byrne, rh Liam
Nici, Lia Vickers, Matt Antoniazzi, Tonia Cadbury, Ruth
Nokes, rh Caroline Wakeford, Christian Ashworth, Jonathan Callaghan, Amy
Norman, rh Jesse Walker, Sir Charles Bardell, Hannah Cameron, Dr Lisa
O’Brien, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Barker, Paula Campbell, rh Sir Alan
Offord, Dr Matthew Wallis, Dr Jamie Beckett, rh Margaret Carden, Dan
Opperman, Guy Warburton, David Begum, Apsana Chamberlain, Wendy
Parish, Neil Warman, Matt Benn, rh Hilary Champion, Sarah
Patel, rh Priti Watling, Giles Betts, Mr Clive Chapman, Douglas
Paterson, rh Mr Owen Webb, Suzanne Black, Mhairi Charalambous, Bambos
Pawsey, Mark Whately, Helen Blackford, rh Ian Cherry, Joanna
Penning, rh Sir Mike Wheeler, Mrs Heather Blackman, Kirsty Clark, Feryal
Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Blake, Olivia Cooper, Daisy
Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, rh Mr John Blomfield, Paul Cooper, Rosie
Philp, Chris Wiggin, Bill Bonnar, Steven Cooper, rh Yvette
Pincher, rh Christopher Wild, James Brabin, Tracy Cowan, Ronnie
Poulter, Dr Dan Williams, Craig Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Coyle, Neil
Pow, Rebecca Williamson, rh Gavin Brennan, Kevin Crawley, Angela
Prentis, Victoria Wilson, rh Sammy Brock, Deidre Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote
Pritchard, Mark Wood, Mike Brown, Alan cast by Peter Kyle)
Quin, Jeremy Wragg, Mr William Brown, Ms Lyn Cruddas, Jon
349 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 350
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Cryer, John Jones, Darren Reed, Mr Steve Tami, rh Mark
Cummins, Judith Jones, Gerald Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Tarry, Sam
Cunningham, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan by Bambos Charalambous) Thewliss, Alison
Daby, Janet Jones, Ruth Reeves, Rachel Thomas, Gareth
Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, Sarah Reynolds, Jonathan Thomas-Symonds, Nick
David, Wayne Kane, Mike Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Thompson, Owen
Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara Rimmer, Ms Marie Thomson, Richard
Davies-Jones, Alex Kendall, Liz Rodda, Matt Thornberry, rh Emily
Day, Martyn Khan, Afzal Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Timms, rh Stephen
De Cordova, Marsha Kinnock, Stephen Saville Roberts, rh Liz Trickett, Jon
Debbonaire, Thangam Kyle, Peter Shah, Naz Twigg, Derek
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lake, Ben Sharma, Mr Virendra Twist, Liz
Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lammy, rh Mr David Sheerman, Mr Barry Vaz, rh Valerie
Dodds, Anneliese Lavery, Ian Sheppard, Tommy Webbe, Claudia
Doogan, Dave Law, Chris Siddiq, Tulip West, Catherine
Dorans, Allan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Slaughter, Andy Western, Matt
Doughty, Stephen Lewis, Clive Smith, Alyn Whitehead, Dr Alan
Dowd, Peter Linden, David Smith, Cat Whitford, Dr Philippa
Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony Smith, Jeff Whitley, Mick
Duffield, Rosie Long Bailey, Rebecca Smith, Nick Whittome, Nadia
Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Caroline Smyth, Karin Williams, Hywel
Eagle, Maria Lynch, Holly Sobel, Alex Wilson, Munira
Eastwood, Colum MacAskill, Kenny Spellar, rh John Winter, Beth
Edwards, Jonathan MacNeil, Angus Brendan Starmer, rh Keir Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Efford, Clive Madders, Justin Stephens, Chris Yasin, Mohammad
Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stevens, Jo Zeichner, Daniel
Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Stone, Jamie Tellers for the Ayes:
Esterson, Bill Malhotra, Seema Stringer, Graham Christine Jardine and
Evans, Chris Maskell, Rachael Sultana, Zarah Mr Alistair Carmichael
Farron, Tim Matheson, Christian
Farry, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry
Fellows, Marion McDonagh, Siobhain NOES
Ferrier, Margaret McDonald, Andy Adams, Nigel Brereton, Jack
Fletcher, Colleen McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Afolami, Bim Bridgen, Andrew
Flynn, Stephen McDonald, Stuart C. Afriyie, Adam Brine, Steve
Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, rh John Ahmad Khan, Imran Bristow, Paul
Foxcroft, Vicky McFadden, rh Mr Pat Aiken, Nickie Britcliffe, Sara
Foy, Mary Kelly McGinn, Conor Aldous, Peter Brokenshire, rh James
Furniss, Gill McGovern, Alison Allan, Lucy Browne, Anthony
Gibson, Patricia McLaughlin, Anne Amess, Sir David Bruce, Fiona
Gill, Preet Kaur McMahon, Jim Anderson, Lee Buchan, Felicity
Glindon, Mary McMorrin, Anna Anderson, Stuart Buckland, rh Robert
Grady, Patrick Mearns, Ian Andrew, Stuart Burghart, Alex
Grant, Peter Mishra, Navendu Ansell, Caroline Burns, rh Conor
Gray, Neil Monaghan, Carol Argar, Edward Butler, Rob
Green, Kate Moran, Layla Atherton, Sarah Cairns, rh Alun
Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica Atkins, Victoria Carter, Andy
Greenwood, Margaret Morgan, Mr Stephen Bacon, Mr Gareth Cartlidge, James
Griffith, Nia Morris, Grahame Bacon, Mr Richard Cash, Sir William
Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Cates, Miriam
Haigh, Louise Murray, James cast by Leo Docherty) Caulfield, Maria
Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Bailey, Shaun Chalk, Alex
Hanna, Claire Newlands, Gavin Baillie, Siobhan Chishti, Rehman
Hardy, Emma Nichols, Charlotte Baker, Duncan Chope, Sir Christopher
Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nicolson, John Baker, Mr Steve Churchill, Jo
Harris, Carolyn Norris, Alex Baldwin, Harriett Clark, rh Greg
Hayes, Helen O’Hara, Brendan Barclay, rh Steve Clarke, Mr Simon
Healey, rh John Olney, Sarah Baron, Mr John Clarke, Theo
Hendrick, Sir Mark Onwurah, Chi Bell, Aaron Clarke-Smith, Brendan
Hendry, Drew Oppong-Asare, Abena Benton, Scott Clarkson, Chris
Hill, Mike Osamor, Kate Beresford, Sir Paul Cleverly, rh James
Hillier, Meg Oswald, Kirsten Berry, rh Jake Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey
Hobhouse, Wera Owatemi, Taiwo Bhatti, Saqib Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse
Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Owen, Sarah Blackman, Bob Colburn, Elliot
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Peacock, Stephanie Blunt, Crispin Collins, Damian
Hollern, Kate Pennycook, Matthew Bone, Mr Peter Costa, Alberto
Hopkins, Rachel Phillips, Jess Bottomley, Sir Peter Courts, Robert
Hosie, Stewart Phillipson, Bridget Bowie, Andrew Coutinho, Claire
Huq, Dr Rupa Pollard, Luke Bradley, Ben Crabb, rh Stephen
Jarvis, Dan Powell, Lucy Bradley, rh Karen Crosbie, Virginia
Johnson, Dame Diana Qureshi, Yasmin Brady, Sir Graham Crouch, Tracey
Johnson, Kim Rayner, Angela Braverman, Suella Daly, James
351 European Union (Withdrawal 7 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 352
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann McPartland, Stephen Seely, Bob
Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon McVey, rh Esther Selous, Andrew
Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John Menzies, Mark Shannon, Jim
Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mercer, Johnny Shapps, rh Grant
Davies, Philip Heappey, James Merriman, Huw Sharma, rh Alok
Davis, rh Mr David Heaton-Harris, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Davison, Dehenna Henderson, Gordon Millar, Robin Simmonds, David
Dinenage, Caroline Henry, Darren Miller, rh Mrs Maria Skidmore, rh Chris
Dines, Miss Sarah Higginbotham, Antony Milling, Amanda Smith, Chloe
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, rh Damian Mills, Nigel Smith, Greg
Docherty, Leo Hoare, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Henry
Donelan, Michelle Holden, Mr Richard Mohindra, Gagan Solloway, Amanda
Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollinrake, Kevin Moore, Damien Spencer, Dr Ben
Double, Steve Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Robbie Spencer, rh Mark
Dowden, rh Oliver Holloway, Adam Mordaunt, rh Penny Stevenson, Jane
Doyle-Price, Jackie Holmes, Paul Morris, Anne Marie Stevenson, John
Drax, Richard Howell, John Morris, David Stewart, Iain
Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, James Stride, rh Mel
Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Morrissey, Joy Sturdy, Julian
Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy Sunak, rh Rishi
Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Mullan, Dr Kieran Sunderland, James
Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom Mumby-Croft, Holly Swayne, rh Sir Desmond
Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Mundell, rh David Syms, Sir Robert
Edwards, Ruth Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Thomas, Derek
Ellis, rh Michael Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Throup, Maggie
Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkinson, Mark Neill, Sir Robert Timpson, Edward
Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Nici, Lia Tolhurst, Kelly
Eustice, George Jenrick, rh Robert Nokes, rh Caroline Tomlinson, Justin
Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Tomlinson, Michael
Evans, Mr Nigel Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil Tracey, Craig
Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew Trevelyan, Anne-Marie
Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Trott, Laura
Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Parish, Neil Tugendhat, Tom
Farris, Laura Jones, Fay Patel, rh Priti Vara, Mr Shailesh
Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen Vickers, Martin
Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon Pawsey, Mark
Vickers, Matt
Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, rh Sir Mike
Wakeford, Christian
Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia Penrose, John
Walker, Sir Charles
Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian Percy, Andrew
Walker, Mr Robin
Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian Philp, Chris
Fox, rh Dr Liam Kruger, Danny Pincher, rh Christopher Wallis, Dr Jamie
Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Poulter, Dr Dan Warburton, David
Frazer, Lucy Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Pow, Rebecca Warman, Matt
Freeman, George Lamont, John Prentis, Victoria Watling, Giles
Freer, Mike Largan, Robert Pritchard, Mark Webb, Suzanne
Fuller, Richard Latham, Mrs Pauline Quin, Jeremy Whately, Helen
Fysh, Mr Marcus Leadsom, rh Andrea Quince, Will Wheeler, Mrs Heather
Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian Randall, Tom Whittaker, Craig
Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew Redwood, rh John Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Brandon Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wiggin, Bill
Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Dr Julian Richards, Nicola Wild, James
Gideon, Jo Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richardson, Angela Williams, Craig
Glen, John Loder, Chris Roberts, Rob Williamson, rh Gavin
Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Wilson, rh Sammy
Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco Robinson, Mary Wood, Mike
Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Rosindell, Andrew Wragg, Mr William
Grant, Mrs Helen by Lee Rowley) Ross, Douglas
Wright, rh Jeremy
Gray, James Lopresti, Jack Rowley, Lee
Young, Jacob
Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Russell, Dean
Zahawi, Nadhim
Green, Chris Loughton, Tim Rutley, David
Green, rh Damian Mackinlay, Craig Sambrook, Gary Tellers for the Noes:
Griffith, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn Saxby, Selaine Tom Pursglove and
Griffiths, Kate Maclean, Rachel Scully, Paul Nigel Huddleston
Grundy, James Mak, Alan
Gullis, Jonathan Malthouse, Kit Question accordingly negatived.
Halfon, rh Robert Mangnall, Anthony
Hall, Luke Mann, Scott To report progress and ask leave to sit again.—(Mike
Hammond, Stephen Marson, Julie Freer.)
Hancock, rh Matt Mayhew, Jerome
Hands, rh Greg Maynard, Paul The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Harper, rh Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow.
Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Karl
353 7 JANUARY 2020 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 354
Afghanistan
UK Special Forces: Iraq and Afghanistan In truth, these affairs can get uncomfortable for
officials, for Ministers and for serving personnel, but it
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House is entirely right and entirely appropriate that we grapple
do now adjourn.—(Mike Freer.) with them in the most forensic fashion, not least because
of the Government’s announcement in the Queen’s
9.12 pm Speech and long-held plans, of which the Minister who
is to respond has been a champion, to change the rules
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): around what can be investigated for Members who have
Given that there is extended time, I will perhaps— served in Northern Ireland.
[Interruption.]
The joint investigation by The Sunday Times and
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): Order. Will “Panorama” was an extraordinarily important piece of
Members leave quietly, please? We are still engaged in a investigative journalism. I am quite sure that all the
debate. Ministers on the Front Bench have furnished themselves
with the details of it from top to bottom, and I thank
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Thank you, Mr Deputy those journalists and investigators who took the time to
Speaker. Given that there is extended time, I will take part in it. Investigative journalism is important,
let Members rush out as quickly as possible because, as especially in such affairs, as a mechanism in a democratic
I am sure Government Front Benchers understand, society to arrest any temptation to sweep over these matters
these affairs are hugely important and deserve the proper or any temptation of a corrupting view setting in.
attention and scrutiny of the House.
The important thing about the allegations that have
I should say at the outset that there is absolutely no been uncovered—hundreds of documents and statements
joy in bringing this debate before the House this evening, —is that they were not made by what the former Prime
but it is important. It follows, as the Minister knows, the Minister called ambulance-chasing activist lawyers. Nobody
joint investigation of The Sunday Times and “Panorama” wants to see vexatious claims being made, but these
of the role of special forces and UK personnel in Iraq allegations were made by serving members of the armed
and Afghanistan. The investigation contained some of forces. They were made by military intelligence officers
the most serious allegations, including allegations of and Government-appointed detectives.
war crimes that have been committed and subsequently
covered up by members of the armed forces and perhaps Even with the extended time we have this evening, it
even Ministers themselves. would not be possible to get into the detail of every case
I should lay out at the very beginning the high regard that was uncovered in that journalism, but I want to
in which I and those on the Scottish National party adumbrate some of the things that it brought to our
Benches hold members of the armed forces. I can see attention: degrading and inhumane treatment; the unlawful
two Defence Ministers on the Government Front Bench killing of civilians; faulty intelligence; doctored and
who already know that. The high regard in which we amended statements when affairs have been investigated,
hold them is matched only by the high standards placed including by the Royal Military Police; and evidence of
on them by the Government, on behalf of the British torture at Camp Stephen in Basra. Anyone who read
public, and rightly so. The Minister responding this that journalism or watched the “Panorama” programme
evening knows that better than most. could not fail to have been shocked by what appears to
be a ruthless and co-ordinated effort to close down the
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. investigations. As I mentioned, it will not be possible to
Gentleman for giving way—I sought his permission to go into all the details of the investigations this evening,
intervene. Does he agree that our British Army have but I am sure the Minister will understand that I may
served in the most difficult wars and conflicts and that wish to follow up on some of the specifics with him in
their courage and bravery are never in doubt? Does he writing.
recognise that every soldier has been subjected to traumatic I plead with the Government in their entirety, not
and stressful circumstances and that the MOD must least the Minister who responds this evening, to be
ensure that every soldier receives the legal advice and judicious in their response and in the handling of these
help that they need? affairs and to approach them with the seriousness they
deserve.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: The hon. Gentleman is
entirely correct to make that point, and I thank him for There is also the case of the shooting of three boys
making it early. The two theatres of conflict in the title and one young man in Afghanistan—shot in the head.
of this debate this evening—Iraq and Afghanistan—are The premise was that they were Taliban insurgents, but
two of the toughest. Indeed, he is also right to mention the joint investigation has told us that no such evidence
that members of the armed forces perform their duties was ever produced. That information was passed to the
in some of the most extraordinarily difficult circumstances. Service Prosecuting Authority, and a recommendation
of war crimes charges was made. A cover up by military
It is entirely right, however, as the hon. Gentleman officials then ensued. Serious, serious questions about
and I discussed before the debate, that standards are why these allegations appear to have been whitewashed
upheld. I know that the Government Front-Bench team in the way they have been need to be addressed.
agrees with that. It is entirely right that this House
expects the Government to live up to what the Geneva In both Iraq and Afghanistan, false information was
conventions require. As I said to the Secretary of State knowingly given to the victims’ families. Two civilians
earlier, in a different but not entirely unrelated statement, died in Iraq under the care of the Black Watch, and
there should be an unforgiving quest for truth and to their families were told that they died days after they
uphold rules and laws, but I shall return to that later. were arrested. The families were told that they were in
355 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 7 JANUARY 2020 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 356
Afghanistan Afghanistan
hospital, which was never the case. There was less than Against a backdrop of assaults on the international
a week between those two cases. What looks like a rules-based order, which the Government tell us day in,
co-ordinated effort to evade justice simply will not hold. day out they want to defend and uphold, surely we must
I talked to some Conservative Members earlier, and I respond to this mind-blowing investigation properly.
was reminded that this stuff has a habit of coming back
to bite if it is not dealt with properly. It may be that it Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con) rose—
comes back in the most serious fashion imaginable. I Stewart Malcolm McDonald: I detect that the former
support Lord Ken Macdonald’s calls for these affairs to Chairman of the Select Committee on Defence wishes
be reopened and investigated properly via a public to intervene.
inquiry led by a judge, but it could be that it ends up
with the International Criminal Court. It is hard to Dr Lewis: Before the hon. Gentleman concludes, may
think of a more seriously grave situation in which the I ask whether he feels that a mechanism similar to that
Government could find themselves. of the Intelligence and Security Committee, which conducts
investigations into matters relating to the intelligence
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman agencies that cannot be discussed on the Floor of the
is making a powerful statement, and I am sure all House, might not be a slightly more appropriate response
Members will take note of what he says. Does he agree than the much wider aim of a war powers Act, with all
this serves to highlight that we need some parliamentary that that would entail?
mechanism to delve into and investigate such accusations
and claims? Stewart Malcolm McDonald: It sounds to me as
though I have an ally in the former Chair of the Defence
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: It is almost as if the Committee, because I think that part of the remit of the
hon. Gentleman can see the notes in front of me, judge-led inquiry that I have advocated on the Floor of
because I am coming to that exact point. the House tonight should be to make a recommendation
The allegations uncovered by the joint BBC and to the House on what mechanism the House or the
The Sunday Times investigation have to be taken out of Government bring to the House so that these operations
the Government’s hands and given to an independent can be properly scrutinised. The ISC would be an
inquiry led by a judge. No honest person could disagree obvious outfit for that, although I know that other
with that. Members would perhaps disagree.
The hon. Gentleman touches on an important wider Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): It
point, which is Parliament’s broader ability to hold seems to me that the hon. Gentleman makes three
special forces operations to account. That is woefully separate points. One is about having a war powers Act. I
lacking in this country, and we are being outdone by the was a co-signatory, with Mr Tony Benn, 20 years ago, in
United States—the United States!—on the oversight of a call for a war powers Act. That is one issue about the
special forces. In this modern age, the public expect role of the House in approving conventional wars over
there to be proper parliamentary scrutiny and parliamentary and above article 5 responses—defensive actions.
oversight. The system needs updating. Secondly, there is a question about the oversight of
Clearly, there cannot be a free-for-all in which every special forces operations. I have doubts on that, because
single Member can access information on live special of the cramping effect on our ability to respond flexibly
forces operations, as only a fool would suggest such a to serious, non-full-war operations.
thing, but it cannot be beyond the House’s collective It is important to differentiate the third point, which
imagination, or beyond the collective imagination of the is about the allegations—they are just that at the moment—
small group of Members, some of whom are unfortunately that have been put by reporters and repeated by the
no longer with us, who regularly attend debates on hon. Gentleman. The proper response to those is through
defence, to propose a mechanism by which we can catch criminal actions; we need not an inquiry by this House,
up with the United States—the US system is not perfect, but proper investigation and proper criminal prosecution,
but it is something—Denmark and Norway and have independently by the authorities. All the soldiers I know
proper oversight of special forces operations. —senior special forces soldiers, senior generals and
Indeed, it has been mentioned before in the House by operational officers in the field today—would welcome
both the Labour Opposition and the Scottish National that, because no soldier wants to be fighting from the
party, to great resistance from Conservative Members, low moral ground. A British soldier wants to be fighting
that the time has come for us to introduce a proper war from the high moral ground, and in that at least we are
powers Act. I say to the Government that it is better to in the same place.
take this stuff on now and to have a serious parliamentary
debate on the scrutiny efforts this Parliament can take Stewart Malcolm McDonald: I thank the right hon.
forward before it ends up in the International Criminal Gentleman deeply for that intervention, as he is of
Court—nobody wants to see that, but it may well be course entirely correct. I would just come back to the
heading there. A failure to deal with this properly, to be second point he picked me up on, which was about
judicious and sober in approaching these matters and to oversight. Nobody wants to deny flexibility; clearly,
ensure that justice is done and the pursuit of the truth is there has to be an ability to respond. We discussed
absolutely unforgiving is nothing short of an assault on earlier how the US system is not perfect, but I do not
our values. It is worth remembering that the ICC was think anyone can say that President Trump feels particularly
set up with the United Kingdom’s enthusiastic support, inflexible as a result of the oversight mechanisms that
and rightly so. As I said, I do not want to see this end up exist on Capitol Hill. I am not suggesting we mirror
in the ICC and I am sure that neither does the Minister. those in their entirety, but the right hon. Gentleman is a
He has an opportunity to ensure that it does not. great authority on these affairs and I think it is time—it
357 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 7 JANUARY 2020 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 358
Afghanistan Afghanistan
[Stewart Malcolm McDonald] BBC “Panorama” programme but I strongly suggest
that he does so. It has around 90 days left on the iPlayer,
is only my proposal at this stage—that if we have a so there is plenty of time to do so.
judge-led inquiry that investigates these matters, part of We are clearly not going to resolve this issue and get
its remit could be to make a recommendation to the into all the details tonight, but tonight has to be the
Government and the House on the best means of moving start of a proper, judicious and sober parliamentary
forward for proper oversight that does not compromise discussion to ensure that those on the Government
flexibility and security, because nobody would want Front Bench act appropriately. As I was saying, the
that. assaults on the international rules-based system, which
can change depending on who uses the phrase, are
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) coming at us from all angles, so let us be the ones who
(SNP): It is one thing to have oversight, but what if it say, “No more.” Let the Government come forward and
does not change the culture of acceptable behaviour do the right thing. Let the Government come forward
that has brought about this investigation? One thing and say, “This will be uncomfortable, but it is entirely
that the House does consistently is reject the idea that right that we are held to the standards that we are
members of the armed forces are employees—that has supposed to be held to under international law; that we
been objected to by Government Members on the Front do have high standards for serving members of the
Bench. Among those of us on the SNP Benches at least, armed forces; and that we will not put up with any
there is an acceptance that if we want to change culture, concerted effort to cover this up.” Let us shine a light on
we need to treat members of the armed forces as employees this stuff.
and give them a trade union. Where there is a problem politically is that clearly
vexatious claims have been made. I do not want to see
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: My hon. Friend tempts that any more than the Minister does; in fact, I want to
me down another path entirely, and he knows I agree see it dealt with, but I want to see it dealt with properly.
with him on that, but his broader point is entirely spot It cannot be used as an excuse to shut down any
on. I know he has spent a lot of time looking at these discussion or to close off any avenue of investigation
matters over the past two and a half years that he has into the deep, deep seriousness of what has been uncovered
been a member of the Defence Committee, so he speaks by the joint investigation.
with some degree of knowledge of them.
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): Of
Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): I have sympathy course we know that the majority of our armed forces
with much of what the hon. Gentleman is saying—and, who have served in these theatres have served with
indeed, with what the former Chairman of the Defence integrity and honour at all times, but we did not support
Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for New them in their integrity and honourable behaviour by
Forest East (Dr Lewis), said—but my right hon. Friend failing to investigate these allegations. In fact, we must
the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) investigate, and the investigation must include an
made the point that this could be crippling, and one investigation of the victims. Until we do that—unless
needs to balance it quite carefully. Let us not kid we properly investigate them—we do not properly support
ourselves: our top soldiers do not go out wanting to and we do not properly stand up here in this House and
commit war crimes. They go out in very confused, say that we can defend completely and utterly the
dynamic, frightening situations, operating with imperfect actions of our armed forces.
information, to take on people who would otherwise
hurt our constituents. We need to keep that firmly in Stewart Malcolm McDonald: My hon. Friend is
mind and not imagine that we have some great problem absolutely correct. Ultimately, the rules and the laws
of crazy guys with unseasonal suntans running around exist to protect serving personnel, as well as to protect
killing people. That is clearly not the case. those who are in the theatre of conflict to which they
are deployed. The rules and laws are there to uphold the
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: The hon. Gentleman very honour to which we pay tribute in this Parliament.
identifies an allegation that I have not made. That is
important to remember, because I agree with what he Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con) rose—
just said. Of course members of the armed forces do
not go out wishing to commit crimes and atrocities—of Stewart Malcolm McDonald: If the hon. Gentleman
course they do not, and I do not allege that. does not mind, I will finish with this point.
In response to what the right hon. Member for As I mentioned earlier, the Government tell us that
Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said, I should say they always want to uphold the international rules-based
that the allegations—and they are just allegations—do system. I suspect that we have different views on what
not come from reporters. They are exposed by reporters that can mean, but this is not it. Clearly, the Minister
but they come from members of the armed forces. The cannot make any promises to me this evening, but the
problem with what has happened, especially in the Afghan Government must set up an independent inquiry into
case—the shooting of three children and one young the allegations that have been made by fellow members
man—is that video evidence is available of what that of the armed forces, and I beseech him to do that. We
soldier went into, in an extremely tough situation, as the need to know what took place, what the Royal Military
hon. Member for Gravesham (Adam Holloway) mentioned, Police were doing, why statements were amended and
but that video evidence has been concealed from top why faulty intelligence leads were followed, resulting in
members of the armed forces. It has been concealed the deaths of civilians and their families being lied to.
from people for whom security clearance exists. I do not Their families deserve better, and our armed forces
know whether the hon. Gentleman has watched the deserve so, so much better.
359 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 7 JANUARY 2020 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 360
Afghanistan Afghanistan
Although there is a broader political debate on the problem will not be courts in the United Kingdom;
oversight—and it sounds like I have some allies across the problem might well be in the International Criminal
the House in ensuring that that is on the agenda—I ask Court.
the Minister tonight, especially given the intentions of
the Government in relation to Northern Ireland, to Johnny Mercer: With respect to the hon. Gentleman,
approach this matter appropriately, to come to the I have dealt with this issue for years now, including
Dispatch Box and to make it clear that there will be an before I came here. The last individual who wants to see
unforgiving and relentless pursuit of the truth and of this country go to the ICC to deal with these allegations
justice. If he does that, I will back him all the way. is me. However, I reiterate the point raised by my right
hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden
9.36 pm (Mr Davis), who is no longer in his place, which is that
The Minister for Defence People and Veterans (Johnny these are allegations at this stage. I will come to that in a
Mercer): May I start by congratulating the hon. Member moment.
for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald) on A balance has to be struck and we will seek that in
securing this debate? He covered a lot of ground, but I this Parliament, starting with primary legislation, which
want to try to stay within the remit of tonight’s debate. I will shortly be laying before Parliament. It is in this
He has some very interesting ideas, and in me he has very careful space—which I encourage those who are
someone with a very contemporary view of defence. I deliberately ill-informed, or who simply want to politicise
think that we need to modernise some of the things that and rewrite history, not to enter; and that clearly does
we do, but much of that is for another day. not include the hon. Member for Glasgow South—that
What is hugely important is that Parliament and the I will answer some of the points raised about the
public should have confidence in how our armed forces conduct of UK armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan
conduct overseas operations and in how allegations of over the last almost 20 years. I just want to expand on
criminal behaviour are investigated. This issue is highly that very briefly, given that we have a little bit of time. I
topical in the wake of the recent allegations made by cannot overestimate the pain caused to the families of
The Sunday Times and the BBC, which I will address in the victims of these situations by ill-informed debates in
my reply, and as this Prime Minister has asked me to this space around amnesties and other options that are
address the long-standing unacceptability of how we simply not considered. The Government are very clear that
deal with historical prosecutions against servicemen there can be no time bar on prosecutions, and I urge
and women, often decades after service. everyone who takes part in this debate to do so cognisant
of the victims and of the people who are being hounded
I want to be clear with the House and with the in this process.
country from the outset. Many words have been written
and said about what I have tried to do, both previously The House will be aware of the long-standing policy
from the Back Benches and now on behalf of the UK of successive Governments not to comment on the
Government, when it comes to historical allegations against activities of our special forces. This “neither confirm,
our servicemen and women. They are almost always nor deny” policy is an essential element in enabling this
inaccurate and usually simply seek to answer one side of strategic asset to operate effectively. I am therefore
the debate, or satisfy one party in the argument. unable to speak in any detail about the vital role that
our special forces played in Iraq and Afghanistan and
Let me be absolutely crystal clear: Members will not will have to confine myself to making observations
find any individual in this House more committed to about the allegations more generally.
prosecuting those who break the law while in uniform
than I am. Many of my cohorts operated in harsh and On the basis of five specific incidents—two from Iraq
chaotic circumstances over many years while remaining and three from Afghanistan—The Sunday Times and
firmly within the boundaries of the law. Like all of us, I the BBC make four broad allegations: first, that we
hold no truck whatever with those who were or who are operated death squads in Afghanistan; secondly, that
unable to operate within the constraints placed on them there has been a systematic attempt by the MOD not to
as a professional member of the UK’s armed forces—armed investigate allegations; thirdly, that the MOD has applied
forces that remain the envy of our peers. I am equally pressure to terminate investigations prematurely; and
clear that there are few higher sins of Government than fourthly, that the MOD has sought throughout to ensure
to expose those who volunteer to serve and ultimately that war crimes in Iraq go unpunished. The BBC wrote
to sacrifice themselves on this nation’s behalf and to to the Ministry of Defence prior to broadcast setting
subject them to years and years of interminable court out these and other allegations that were not repeated
processes, allegations and deep personal distress simply in its “Panorama” programme. The MOD promptly
as a result of serving this nation on operations. Where forwarded these letters to the service police and the
there is clear evidence of crimes being committed, the Service Prosecuting Authority. The service police have
Prime Minister and I are unequivocal that individuals reviewed the letters and the programme and have confirmed
must be held to account for their actions, irrespective of that The Sunday Times and the BBC have not produced
time passed. But we will not allow veterans in this any new allegations or any new evidence in relation to
country who have committed no crime to be exposed to those five incidents that had not already been considered.
endless legal processes well outside of the original intended Let me repeat now from the Dispatch Box to the
scope of the laws under which they are brought—hounding House and beyond that anyone who has any evidence—
some of the nation’s finest people years after service. “evidence” is the key word—has a duty to come forward
and let independent police officers examine that evidence.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: I hear what the Minister The allegations are deeply disturbing, and as perhaps
saying and I carry a lot of sympathy for it, but if he does the most prominent voice on increased legal protections
not deal with this properly, quickly and appropriately, for our armed forces, I wish personally to satisfy myself
361 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 7 JANUARY 2020 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 362
Afghanistan Afghanistan
[Johnny Mercer] warfare has changed. So-called lawfare has become a
tool for extending conflicts by other means or attempting
about them. These investigations are never closed. Any to actually rewrite history itself.
evidence will be looked at in an independent and
professional manner, to this day. As the House would Stewart Malcolm McDonald: If I may take the Minister
expect, the International Criminal Court is considering back just slightly, the investigators he mentions who
the BBC’s allegations as part of its preliminary examination looked at many of these allegations are the same people who
into alleged war crimes in Iraq. The Government are have now blown the whistle to the BBC and The Sunday
continuing to co-operate fully with the ICC, and we Times. They are the same people who have come forward
expect to be able to satisfy it that the service police have and said that things have been shut down. He rightly
appropriately investigated all allegations. says that he will bring forward primary legislation in the
near future. Does he envisage that by that time there
Carol Monaghan: We know that the UN has identified will be greater or less resource to investigate as a result
cases of 300 civilians who have been unlawfully killed. of his legislation?
If there are 300 civilians who have been unlawfully killed,
there are people who have done the unlawful killing. I Johnny Mercer: Let me be very clear with the
would therefore like to know what steps are being taken hon. Gentleman. There have been allegations made by
to properly investigate these killings to ensure that we individuals, a very small number of whom worked
have the answers and there is scrutiny of the operations within the investigative teams. There have been allegations
of the armed forces. made by a small number of people associated with
operational units involved in the incidents that have
been alleged. They have made allegations, and investigators
Johnny Mercer: I am about to come on to civilian
who have interviewed them have been persuaded by
casualties. Every civilian casualty is reported to the
their case. Those allegations are then investigated and
military police. I will cover that in detail in a moment.
presented to the independent Service Prosecuting Authority,
First, though, let me deal with the allegation that our which makes a decision on whether the threshold of
armed forces operated so-called death squads in evidence has been breached and a conviction, or even a
Afghanistan. This is simply not true. Our armed forces prosecution, is likely. That decision has been made in a
did conduct many daring operations to capture Taliban clear-eyed, professional manner without fear or favour,
insurgents. However, these were not “kill or capture” to bring this matter to a close. It is in nobody’s interests
operations; rather, they were carefully planned “capture” that this has continued as long as it has. In terms of
operations with the object of capturing known Taliban resource and how we address this, I will come to that
insurgents and their associates. While every effort is taken towards the end of my remarks, but Members can pick
to minimise the risk to any civilians who are present me up if I do not.
during such operations, it is simply an unfortunate fact In the case of Iraq, the investigative challenges were
that the risk of civilian casualties in war cannot be compounded by the behaviour of some of the legal
eliminated altogether. firms involved. Public Interest Lawyers waged a long-
Irrespective of the unit involved in any operation, civilian running campaign challenging the ability of the service
deaths were reported to, and have been independently police to conduct independent and effective investigations.
investigated by, the Royal Military Police. All three of Having lost that argument, PIL notified approximately
the incidents cited by The Sunday Times and the BBC 1,200 new allegations, many of which were found upon
have been investigated. The RMP referred one case—the examination to be seriously misplaced or extremely
shooting of Fazel Mohammed and three Afghan minors, flimsy.
to which the hon. Gentleman referred—to the Service I am clear that IHAT could have handled matters
Prosecuting Authority, which, having obtained independent much better—I have not changed my view on that since
legal advice outside the Ministry of Defence from senior I personally ran the campaign to expose its practices—but
external counsel, decided that the evidence did not I want to make it absolutely clear that there has been no
establish a realistic prospect of conviction. In the other strategic interference whatsoever in individual cases or
two cases, the RMP concluded that there was insufficient in the overall Iraq or Afghanistan case loads. That
evidence of wrongdoing and did not refer any soldiers would be completely pointless. Allegations that are not
for any offence. fully investigated will only contrive to extend the process
It is simply not credible to suggest, given the scale of for our servicemen and women. All investigative and
resources expended by the MOD on investigating alleged prosecution decisions have been made independently by
criminal behaviour in Iraq and Afghanistan, that this the service police and the Service Prosecuting Authority
demonstrates that there could have been a systematic without reference to the MOD, the chain of command
cover-up. Over £40 million has been spent to date on the or Ministers. They have also been subject to independent
Iraq criminal investigations, while £10 million has been external and periodic independent reviews by subject
spent on Operation Northmoor, which is the RMP’s matter experts.
investigation into 675 allegations from Afghanistan. At The Iraq investigations have been subject to
their height, the Iraq Historical Allegations Team and unprecedented court oversight, with extensive, transparent
Operation Northmoor each involved over 100 investigators reporting obligations to a designated judge of the
who have collated and reviewed vast numbers of documents High Court. Operation Northmoor has been subject to
and interviewed large numbers of alleged victims, families, independent assurance by an experienced senior criminal
witnesses, service personnel and veterans. barrister and a retired chief constable. The allegation
Throughout, the MOD has wanted investigations that IHAT and Op Northmoor investigations were closed
and prosecution decisions to be conducted efficiently down for political reasons in 2017 is, I am afraid, simply
and effectively. But the reality is that the nature of wrong and self-defeating. IHAT’s case load was transferred
363 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 7 JANUARY 2020 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 364
Afghanistan Afghanistan
to Service Police Legacy Investigations, which stood up known as Iraq fatality investigations, to satisfy fully our
on 1 July 2017 and is still conducting a small number of obligations under the European convention on human
investigations. Investigations under Operation Northmoor rights. These IFIs are similar in form to a coroner’s
continued with independent external assurance into 2019. inquest and are conducted by an independent, retired
The assertion that the Ministry of Defence exploited judge. They are designed to provide the families of the
the taint that resulted from Phil Shiner’s misconduct to deceased with answers and to help the armed forces
close investigations is also incorrect. The evidence that learn lessons for the future.
PIL had paid an undisclosed number of Iraqis, apparently While the fact that the 2003 report into Mr al-Musawi’s
by way of inducement, to bring allegations against our death contains inaccurate information is deeply concerning,
armed forces emerged only after IHAT and the Service there is insufficient evidence to refer anyone for an
Prosecuting Authority had started reviewing the Iraq offence in relation to this incident. Having exhausted all
case load to decide in accordance with the High Court’s reasonable and proportionate lines of enquiry, SPLI
direction whether further investigation was warranted has uncovered no evidence that conclusively refutes the
in individual cases. IHAT and the SPA informed the soldier’s assertion that he acted in self-defence. Indeed,
High Court of their approach and the rationale for it. two of the deceased’s brothers told investigations that
The High Court did not express any concern about this Mr al-Musawi fired several shots into the air immediately
review process. None of the investigations under Op prior to this shooting.
Northmoor was affected by Phil Shiner being struck Today’s debate and previous debates on historical
off, as the BBC and The Sunday Times assert, because investigations have shown the strength of feeling on this
none of the investigations involved allegations notified vital issue. I am considering some key policy interventions
by Phil Shiner. to learn lessons from over 15 years of investigations and
The Sunday Times and the BBC assert that the closure litigation arising from operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
of IHAT was intended to ensure that the alleged war I am not of the opinion that any organisation the size of
crimes in Iraq went unpunished. I have outlined why the UK’s armed forces will not have its challenging
that is simply not credible to the UK’s armed forces, as individuals. There is no doubt that some of the experiences
an institution that prides itself on its ethos and values of those who came into contact with the UK’s armed
that set it apart from this nation’s enemies. Factually, forces in Iraq and Afghanistan were completely
they cite two cases in support of this wholly untenable unacceptable.
position: the shooting of an off-duty Iraqi policeman Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Sensing that the Minister
and the deaths of Radhi Nama and Abdul Jabar Mousa is about to close, may I take him back, because he did
Ali at Camp Stephen. In fact, both cases were taken ask me to remind him: does he think that after he brings
over by SPLI when IHAT closed. SPLI’s investigations forward his legislation there will be greater resource to
into both cases only finished in early 2019. This means investigate these affairs or not? In addition, is the Royal
that the information that forms the basis of comments Military Police, in his view, in its current form fit for
by former IHAT investigators and by Lord Macdonald, purpose?
to whom the hon. Member for Glasgow South referred,
was incomplete and at least two years out of date. While Johnny Mercer: What I will say to the hon. Gentleman
it has not been possible to attribute the deaths of is that, in my view, no option is off the table in reflecting,
Mr Nama and Mr Mousa Ali to any individuals, SPLI with respect to the past 15 years, on how we never end
referred three people to the Service Prosecuting Authority up in this position again. Resource in this investigation
for having committed or failed to prevent, punish or has not been a determining factor: over £50 million has
report outrages upon personal dignity. In coming to a gone into investigating these crimes—or alleged crimes—in
decision in this case, the director of service prosecutions both Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course, this is not going
obtained independent legal advice from senior external to be some sort of paper exercise. It is a defining issue
counsel. for many of us, and we will of course do this properly. I
It is a matter of deep personal regret that the original hope he will have seen from my comments this evening
RMP investigations were flawed and that opportunities that there is absolutely no intention to cover anything
to hold those responsible to account may now have been up, to let anybody who sees uniform as a place where
lost. For this, I unreservedly apologise to those who they can commit crimes to do so or to enable any of
suffered treatment at the hands of UK forces that was that behaviour, which is totally out of kilter with 99% of
simply unacceptable, and I apologise to our servicemen people’s experiences in the military. However, I am
and women who have, as a result, had years of investigations equally firm that the experience of too many of those
foisted upon them, having more often than not had who have served this nation in operations in subsequent
nothing to do with the incidents in question. years has been totally unacceptable, and in that respect
this Prime Minister and this Government are going to
As the al-Sweady inquiry has already highlighted, the redefine the debate.
RMP elements deployed to Iraq were simply insufficient
to cope with the unexpectedly high number of incidents Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and
requiring investigation. This is what led the Provost Lesmahagow) (SNP): The Minister is making an excellent
Marshal (Army) in 2010 to direct IHAT to review nine point. I declare an interest in that my husband is a
RMP investigations, including those into the deaths of veteran himself—from the Royal Electrical and Mechanical
Mr Nama and Mr Mousa Ali, to ascertain whether all Engineers. For those who have been subject to investigation
lines of enquiry had been followed. The considerable after investigation, are we providing enough psychological
obstacles to obtaining sufficient evidence to prosecute support and support in terms of their mental health?
in historical cases have been recognised by the High No matter the circumstances, one cannot help thinking
Court, which in 2013 ordered the MOD to establish a that this must be a very stressful situation for them and
process of non-criminal quasi-inquests, which have become their families, and as much as possible must be done.
365 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 7 JANUARY 2020 UK Special Forces: Iraq and 366
Afghanistan Afghanistan
Johnny Mercer: I thank the hon. Lady for her in these allegations. If we are to manufacture the political
intervention, and I restate that the experiences of some space to introduce increased legal protection for our
of our finest people have been unacceptable. I speak to armed forces, I am conscious that we must demonstrate
the process that they have been subjected to and to the the ability to hold our people firmly to account, which
way that my Department has looked after them through has not always been the case.
that process. Since 2015 or 2016, when a few of us I hope that tonight the House and the country will
started working on this— have noted my determination to get this right. Those
who break the law must and will be held to account
10 pm where the evidence exists—that evidential point is
paramount—and we cannot do so without evidence
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). that breaches the threshold required for prosecution. I
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House am equally firm, however, that this Government will
do now adjourn.—(Leo Docherty.) simply not allow our legal processes to be exploited in
an attempt to hound servicemen and women or to
Johnny Mercer: Having interrogated those processes, rewrite history. Most fair-minded men and women in
I am confident that we are now in a much better place to this country understand that war is a supremely chaotic,
support those individuals. There are challenges in reaching dangerous, frightening and confused environment. This
out to those who served a longer time ago, but we are is not a cover for criminal behaviour; it is a tribute to the
acutely aware of them, and the MOD now exists to incredible standards and sacrifices of our armed forces,
support with the provision of legal costs and pastoral to which I again pay tribute tonight. Uniform is no
care and to get those individuals through a very difficult place for those who cannot operate within the boundaries
situation. we ask them to, and we find that that view is most
strongly shared by those who make up that community.
A key function of a modern military force is the
ability to document and evidence sensitive operations in Question put and agreed to.
a highly complex and challenging battlespace. We expect 10.2 pm
a relentless pursuit of excellence from all our armed
forces, and particularly from the specialist units involved House adjourned.
367 8 JANUARY 2020 368

House of Commons Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): May I also welcome

you to the Chair, Mr Speaker, and the Secretary of
State and the Minister to their positions?
Wednesday 8 January 2020 The 2016 framework was established before we knew
what the impact of Brexit would be. The world has
changed. Consideration will now have to be given to
The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock what powers pass from Brussels not just to Whitehall
and Westminster but to Holyrood. This gives the Secretary
PRAYERS of State an opportunity to reach out, cross-party, and
to establish a proper future framework on what powers
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] should rightly be with the Scottish Parliament and
Government. He also has to take responsibility for
Speaker’s Statement ensuring that a financial package goes with those new
powers.
Mr Speaker: I remind Members that voting in the
election for the Deputy Speakers is taking place today Mr Jack: In the spending round, there is an extra
in Committee Room 8 until 1.30 pm. May I also remind £1.2 billion for Scotland. That is quite clear. Discussions
Members that the private Members’ Bill ballot book is on frameworks are ongoing and are proving to be
open in the No Lobby until the rise of the House? The successful. Not a single power is being taken away from
book will be available for Members to sign in the No the Scottish Parliament as we come out of the European
Lobby until 6 pm, at which point it will be taken to the Union. If anyone can think of one, they should write
Public Bill Office and remain open for signatures until and tell me because, on the contrary, the Scottish Parliament
the rise of the House. The ballot draw will be held at will have more powers after we leave the European Union.
9 am tomorrow in the Wilson Room.
Fishing

Oral Answers to Questions 2. Gillian Keegan (Chichester) (Con): What steps he is

taking to support the Scottish fishing industry. [900086]

SCOTLAND The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland

(Douglas Ross): This is my first opportunity to say what
The Secretary of State was asked— a privilege it is to have been re-elected as the Member of
Parliament for Moray, representing my home area, and
Fiscal Framework Agreement to now work in the Scotland Office. May I also wish you
a very happy new year, Mr Speaker? As we say in
1. Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): What Scotland, lang may yer lum reek.
recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of Leaving the European Union will afford the fishing
the 2016 fiscal framework agreement between the industry in Scotland, and across the United Kingdom,
Government and the Scottish Government. [900085]
many opportunities. We will no longer be shackled to
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): the common fisheries policy, and we will control who
I welcome you to your new role, Mr Speaker, and give catches what, where and when in our waters. This
you my very best wishes for 2020. Government will work tirelessly to that aim with our
fishermen and coastal communities across Scotland.
The UK Government continue to work closely with
the Scottish Government to implement the fiscal framework
Gillian Keegan: I thank my hon. Friend for that
agreed in February 2016. I pay tribute to my right hon.
answer. It is fantastic to see him in his place and I
Friend the Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands),
congratulate him on his new role. Scotland has a proud
who played his part in that agreement. A review of the
history of fishing the finest seafood, and the same is
arrangements is due in 2021.
true of local fishermen in Selsey in my constituency.
Greg Hands: I also welcome you to your position, There is great concern, however, that the next generation
Mr Speaker, and the new Secretary of State to his. One are not entering the industry, and the situation is made
of the interesting features of the negotiations was that more urgent given the growth we expect in UK fishing
the venue alternated between London and Edinburgh, once we leave the EU. What discussions has my hon.
which might be an idea for other negotiations that are Friend had with colleagues to develop an industry
about to start. The fiscal framework, combined with the pipeline for future fishermen and women?
Scotland Act 2016, helped create possibly the most
powerful devolved Parliament anywhere in the world. Douglas Ross: I accept that for many years, the fishing
Could the Secretary of State tell us, however, what the industry has not offered attractive job opportunities for
consequences of fiscal devolution have been for Scottish young people in Scotland or across the UK. I strongly
taxpayers? believe that when we leave the European Union, there is
a bright future for this industry. I hope that that will
Mr Jack: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: encourage more people to look to fishing as an area
the Scottish Parliament is the most powerful devolved where they can have a successful career. My hon. Friend
Parliament in the world, and with those tax powers it is has been a great champion for the fishing industry in
much more accountable than was previously the case. Selsey, and I know that she will continue to promote her
However, I regret its decision to make Scotland the constituency and its strong links with the fishing industry
most highly taxed part of the United Kingdom. during this Parliament.
369 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 370

Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): was signed by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, the
When the Minister was a Back Bencher, he understood then deputy leader. The Edinburgh agreement stated
full well the need for non-European economic area that both parties would respect the outcome of the
crews to come into Scottish waters, particularly on the referendum, and that has not happened.
west coast. What will he and his Front-Bench colleagues
do to make sure that can happen? Or will they demonstrate Drew Hendry: A good new year to you, Mr Speaker.
their powerlessness, ensuring that nothing happens, as The Scottish Secretary has anticipated that the Scottish
has been the case for years? Parliament will refuse legislative consent for the European
Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. He said:
Douglas Ross: To prove what will happen, I encourage “that’s something we understand and respect because their position
the hon. Gentleman to wait for question 8 from the is that they don’t support Brexit.”
hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), which is When consent is refused today, how will the UK
about exactly that. I will answer that point then, and I Government demonstrate that respect?
hope that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar
(Angus Brendan MacNeil) will be encouraged by the Mr Jack: What we are respecting is the democratic
response. outcome of referendums, which the SNP does not respect.
The referendum in 2016 was a United Kingdom
“Scotland’s Right to Choose”
referendum, and we voted to leave the European Union.
We are respecting that. Under the Sewel convention, we
3. Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP): What assessment have provision for what is known as “not normal”. This
he has made of the implications for his policies of the is a constitutional matter. Constitutional matters are
Scottish Government’s publication entitled “Scotland’s reserved, and they are not normally under the remit of
Right to Choose”. [900087] the Scottish Parliament. We are delivering what the
2016 referendum requested us to deliver.
6. Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and
Strathspey) (SNP): What assessment he has made of Amy Callaghan: This Tory Government are claiming
the implications for his policies of the Scottish Government’s that their 43% of the vote in the last general election
publication entitled “Scotland’s Right to Choose”. provides them with an overwhelming mandate to implement
[900091] Brexit. Can the Secretary of State therefore explain the
absolutely blinding contradiction of his own position
7. Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP): What when he says that the 45% vote for the SNP, providing
assessment he has made of the implications for his 80% of Scottish seats in this very House, does not
policies of the Scottish Government’s publication entitled equate to a mandate for the people of Scotland to
“Scotland’s Right to Choose”. [900092] choose our own future?
9. Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): What assessment Mr Jack: It was a referendum three years ago. We are
he has made of the implications for his policies of the speaking for the majority of Scots. The majority of
Scottish Government’s publication entitled “Scotland’s voters voted in 2016 to leave the European Union. We
Right to Choose”. [900095] are respecting that decision, whereas the SNP is not
respecting it and wants to tear up the United Kingdom.
13. Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP): What
assessment he has made of the implications for his Neil Gray: The Secretary of State’s performance thus
policies of the Scottish Government’s publication entitled far highlights just how untenable the Government’s
“Scotland’s Right to Choose”. [900099] position is on this matter. He has completely failed to
answer my colleagues’ questions, so I remind him that
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): his party enjoys 43% of the vote to deliver Brexit yet
I will answer these questions together. There is no denies the SNP, with its 45% of the vote in Scotland, its
independence of thought in the questions. right to give the people of Scotland their say. What is
The Prime Minister has received the First Minister’s his democratic case for denying the people of Scotland
correspondence, which contains the Scottish Government their right to choose their own future?
publication, and he will respond in due course.
Mr Jack: The First Minister has asked for the right to
Chris Law: The Secretary of State repeatedly said to set and decide the context for future referendums. We
the people of Scotland during the general election are very clear that constitutional matters are reserved. It
campaign that every vote for the Conservatives is a vote would be completely wrong for us to hand over those
to “say no to indyref2”. That went well for them, didn’t powers to the Scottish Parliament because we would
it? It saw them lose over half their seats and left them end up with a series of neverendums, which would be
with barely a rump of MPs. Will the Secretary of State bad for the Scottish economy and bad for Scottish jobs.
now listen to the people of Scotland, as reflected by the It would reduce tax income and therefore damage already
80% of seats won by the SNP, and support their expressed failing public services.
democratic will to choose their own future?
Kirsty Blackman: The UK Government have ignored
Mr Jack: Some 45% of Scots voted for the SNP in the Scottish people’s voices and votes in every election and
2019 election, and 45% of Scots voted for independence referendum since 2016, careering on with both Brexit
in 2014. The numbers simply have not changed. Further, and austerity. What precise electoral event would convince
in 2014 the independence referendum came on the back the Secretary of State that Scotland’s people should
of something called the Edinburgh agreement, which have the right to choose their own future?
371 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 372

Mr Jack: First, on austerity, the Scottish Government’s focus on the NHS? They should focus first on the people
own independence figures show that there would be a of Scotland who are missing the 12-week treatment
£12.6 billion hole in the Scottish finances, which would target, which the Scottish Government have never met.
mean real austerity. On when the time will be right,
both Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond said at the Mr Jack: Yes, my hon. Friend makes a good point.
time of the referendum that it was a once-in-a-generation, Today’s The Herald highlights the fact that accident and
once-in-a-lifetime decision. I do not feel that either a emergency waiting times have deteriorated in Scotland
generation or a lifetime has passed. to a record low, with record numbers of patients now
waiting more than 12 hours to be treated.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and
Tweeddale) (Con): I welcome my right hon. Friend the Block Grant
Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister to
the Dispatch Box. 4. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): What recent
Does my right hon. Friend agree that this document discussions he has had with the Scottish Government
is just another expensive and time-wasting stunt by on the block grant. [900088]
Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP? The people of Scotland
chose decisively in 2014 to remain in the United Kingdom, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland
and it is time that Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP accepted (Douglas Ross): Ministers and officials have regular
that and moved on. discussions with the Scottish Government on many
issues, including the block grant. The latest spending
Mr Jack: May I start by thanking my predecessor for round gave the biggest funding settlement for the Scottish
his four years as Secretary of State for Scotland and, Government in a decade, with an extra £1.2 billion to
prior to that, five years as Under-Secretary and four help grow the economy and invest in our vital public
years as a shadow spokesman? In all, he spent 13 years services across Scotland.
as a spokesman on Scottish affairs in this House, and I
think the last person to do so for that length of time was Mel Stride: Will my hon. Friend reassure the House
Willie Ross under Harold Wilson. I thank him for all that, at the upcoming Budget, Scotland will receive its
the hard work and service he has given to the people of fair share of funding through the Barnett formula and,
Scotland. further, that the commitments made by the previous
It is quite clear that the Scottish Government constantly Government on the eight city and regional deals will be
harp on about independence and separation because honoured in full?
they want to deflect from the main issue, which is that
they are failing on our school standards and failing our Douglas Ross: I can reassure my right hon. Friend
NHS. that Scotland will receive fair funding thanks to the
block grant and the Barnett formula, and that will
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) continue. On city and growth deals, we are already
(Con): I welcome the new ministerial team to the Scotland investing £1.4 billion across Scotland and we are committed
Office. In Scotland, education standards are falling and to a deal in every part of the country, including in my
the NHS is failing patients with missed waiting-time own area of Moray, where we agreed to £32.5 million
targets. Does the Secretary of State share my embarrassment from the UK Government matched by the Scottish
that the First Minister of Scotland, rather than sorting Government, making this the highest funded growth
out these important issues, is obsessing with independence? deal per head of population anywhere in the country.
That is a sign to constituents across Scotland of what
Scotland’s two Governments can do when they work
Mr Jack: Yes. together.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): Does Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP):
my right hon. Friend agree that the SNP has every right First, I want to commend the work that my hon. Friend
to continue making the case for independence, and to the Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard)
do so with passion and force, but that what it does not did in this role before me. He did a sterling job and
have the right to do is to keep dragging the people of could not have set a better example. Yesterday, my
Scotland and Scottish businesses around the same mountain colleagues asked the Chancellor for an explanation as
time and time again to try to get the answer it did not to why the UK is delaying its Budget until 11 March,
get the first time? despite the fact that the Scottish Government must pass
their budget by 1 April and that 11 March is the legal
Mr Jack: My right hon. Friend makes a good point. deadline by which Scottish councils must set their budgets
What Scotland needs now is a period of peace and and their council tax levels. No explanation was given
tranquillity, not division and rancour. We need to take yesterday and I doubt I will get one now, so instead I
the opportunities that Brexit will bring us, not least on want to ask: if and when did the Secretary of State raise
the common fisheries policy and other great trade deals, this issue with the Cabinet? If he did raise it, what
and make 2020 a year of optimism and growth. answers was he given?

Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): The NHS is a Douglas Ross: Let me begin by welcoming the hon.
precious asset that is just as important to people in Lady to her position as shadow Secretary of State for
Scotland as it is to my constituents in Redditch. Does Scotland, following the reshuffle by the Scottish National
my right hon. Friend agree that the Scottish Government’s party recently, and by paying tribute to the hon. Member
obsessive attraction to independence detracts from their for Edinburgh East for the work he did in that role
373 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 374

previously to her. The Chancellor made it clear to the greater cuts the council has received from the SNP
new SNP shadow Chancellor that there is nothing to Scottish Government in Holyrood, which are affecting
prevent the Scottish Government from setting their local services in Moray and throughout Scotland.
budget ahead of the UK Government setting theirs, and
the UK Government have already shared estimates of Growth Deal
tax and welfare block grant adjustments, based on the
latest Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts in December, 5. Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con): What
to aid the Scottish Government in these preparations. steps he is taking to ensure that all parts of Scotland
benefit from a growth deal. [900089]
Mhairi Black: It is ridiculous for the Scottish Parliament
to be expected to know what money it is going to be The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack):
getting, given that the UK Government have not told it To date, the UK Government have committed over
yet; I am very quickly realising why many believe that £1.4 billion in Scotland through the city region and
this Department is utterly obsolete. Scotland is needing growth deal programme, which will be rolled out to all
to wait on this place getting its act together and to wait the other regions of Scotland very shortly.
for permission to be told what we can spend money on.
Will the Minister at least concede that none of this Mark Logan: I fully support our Government’s ambitious
would be happening if Scotland instead had the full plans to make sure that every part of Scotland benefits
fiscal powers of an independent and competent nation, from a growth deal. Does the Secretary of State agree
in order to let us get on with the job properly? that the £1.4 billion that the UK Government have
already invested in city and growth deals is another fine
Douglas Ross: The hon. Lady is asking for “us” to be example of how Scotland benefits from being in a
allowed to get on with the job, but the “us” is the SNP strong United Kingdom?
Scottish Government in Holyrood, who are letting down
our health service and education service, and overseeing Mr Jack: I do agree, and that is just one example of
cuts to local government, which are affecting every local how Scotland benefits from being in a strong United
authority in Scotland. Perhaps this is not about the Kingdom. Another example is the Union dividend,
amount of money that Scotland gets from this UK which is worth more than £2,000 per annum to every
Government, which is the highest level in a decade, but man, woman and child in Scotland. I should add that
about the way it is spent—or, in many cases, misspent—by the Prime Minister has announced a further £300 million
the Scottish Government in Holyrood. to complete the growth deals throughout all the regions
of Scotland, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland. In
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): Those answers are October, I was pleased to announce the quantum for
simply not good enough. The Scottish Government in Argyll and Bute, and I shall soon announce the quantum
Holyrood and the Scottish local authorities are entitled for both Falkirk and the islands.
to know what the block grant is so that they can plan
their future. Anybody who has tried to set a budget Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I congratulate
dependent on UK central Government funding knows the Secretary of State on his being reappointed to the
that delay in this makes it almost impossible to manage. Cabinet.
When will the Scottish Government be given certainty
about what that block grant is, so that they can begin to Growth deals are of course important, but have the
plan their future? Government had any conversations with the Scottish
Government on how the latter plan to plug their 8%
Douglas Ross: I hope that some certainty was given fiscal deficit to meet the European Union’s 3% fiscal
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, when he deficit rule so that they could enter the European Union
gave the commitment and the understanding that there in the event of there being an independent Scotland?
is nothing to prevent the Scottish Parliament from
passing a budget before the UK Parliament does. We Mr Jack: The hon Gentleman makes a good point.
shared the estimates on tax and the welfare block grant Were separation to happen, for an independent Scotland
with the Scottish Government in December last year, to join the European Union, under the Maastricht
and we will continue to engage with them going forward. criteria its fiscal deficit would have to be 3% of GDP or
less. That simply is not the case—Scotland’s fiscal deficit
Tony Lloyd: Again, it is simply not good enough. Not currently runs at more than 7%—so as things stand the
only can the Scottish Government not set a budget, but economics are pure fantasy.
Scottish councils cannot. That affects non-governmental
organisations, businesses and services. What the Minister John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): The borderlands
is doing is a measure of incompetence. When will the growth initiative has proven to be very popular in the
Secretary of State say to the Chancellor that he has to borderlands region, and the initiatives in it will be
do more? There must be certainty; we cannot wait till implemented in the next year or two. [Interruption.]
March. Will the Secretary of State commit to a second growth
deal for the borderlands?
Douglas Ross: As the Chancellor of the Exchequer
takes his seat, I am sure he is listening to these discussions, Mr Jack: My hon. Friend will not be surprised that I
and he answered the points made by the SNP representative missed the end of his question because our Prime
yesterday. Before I first entered this place, I was a local Minister was being cheered by colleagues. I think that
councillor for 10 years on Moray Council, so I know my hon. Friend asked me to commit to the delivery of
the council’s important role in setting its budget. In the borderlands growth deal. We have announced the
recent years, that has been made more difficult by the quantum and we will have the heads of terms very soon.
375 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 376

Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): Will the Secretary The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend
of State put to one side his fluffy rhetoric and answer for the work that he is doing for those suffering from
this? When he considers the regional growth deal for motor neurone disease, which is indeed a terrible illness.
Edinburgh and the Lothians, will he look into the mess We are doing everything that we can to ensure that the
that his Government have made in respect of the closure welfare system works for sufferers of that illness. That is
of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs office in Livingston why the Department for Work and Pensions is indeed
and the move to Edinburgh? Will he do as his predecessor looking at how it can change the way that we help
did and come to Livingston and West Lothian, speak to people nearing the end of their life with the most severe
my constituents, the workers, the unions and the elected conditions, including motor neurone disease. I am sure
representatives, and look into what can be done to fill that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for
the gap and sort out the mess made by his Government? Work and Pensions will be only too happy to meet my
hon. Friend at the earliest opportunity.
Mr Jack: I am happy to speak to the hon. Lady outside
the Chamber about her concerns. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I wish to
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): start by paying tribute to Andrew Miller, the former
On the subject of the quantum for the islands’ deal, to Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, who sadly died
which the Secretary of State has already referred, will on Christmas eve. He is a sad loss to this place. He spent
he confirm that he will pursue with the Treasury a basis more than 20 years here, was an expert on science and
that is different from the per capita funding of other technology, and made an enormous contribution to this
deals, because otherwise the deal for the islands will House. Our thoughts are with his family and friends. He
never be a meaningful one? is deeply mourned by Labour Members because of the
great contribution that he made.
Mr Jack: The right hon. Gentleman raises a very I join the Prime Minister in sending sympathy and
good point. Previously, these deals have been done on a support to our friends in Australia, where the fires have
per capita basis, but we recognise that the islands is a claimed the lives of more than 20 people. Along with
huge geographical area and that per capita would bring the loss of human life, hundreds of millions of animals
a very low outcome. We are in discussions with the have also been destroyed as a result of the fires. This is a
Treasury about raising the quantum. warning about global warming and what it does to us
all, and we must take the threat of climate change very
seriously.
PRIME MINISTER I also join the Prime Minister in sending our thoughts
to the friends and families of those who sadly died in
The Prime Minister was asked— the Ukrainian plane that crashed in Tehran last night.
Following last night’s attack on the United States
Engagements bases in Iraq, will the Prime Minister confirm that, in
this situation, he opposes any further retaliation or
Q1. [900070] Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con): escalation in violence, as the region is at real risk of
If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday going into a full-scale war?
8 January.
The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): I should begin The Prime Minister: Of course I can confirm that.
by saying that, of course, we condemn the attack on Let me point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the
Iraqi military bases hosting coalition forces. Iran should United Kingdom has been working solidly since the
not repeat these reckless and dangerous attacks, but crisis began to bring together our European allies in
must instead pursue urgent de-escalation. particular in their response. The House will have noted
I know that the thoughts of the House are also with the E3 declaration that was issued by France, Germany
our friends in Australia, as they tackle the bushfires, and the United Kingdom, in which we drew particular
and with the families of those killed in the Ukrainian attention to the baleful role played in the region for a
air crash. very long time by Qasem Soleimani. That is a collective
European view, but it is a view that does not yet appear
This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues to be shared by the right hon. Gentleman. I have been
and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I interested that, in all his commentary, he has not yet
shall have further such meetings later today. raised that matter.
Andrew Lewer: Motor neurone disease is a terrible
terminal illness, with a third of people dying within a Jeremy Corbyn: Following the Government’s support
year and more than half within two years of diagnosis. for the United States over the assassination of General
The last thing that terminally ill people and their families Soleimani, is the Prime Minister confident that United
should be worrying about are their finances. The Scrap Kingdom troops and civilians are not at further risk in
6 Months campaign by the Motor Neurone Disease the region and beyond?
Association, which is based in my constituency of
Northampton, South, has managed to bring the important The Prime Minister: That is an important question. I
issue of payments to those with terminal illnesses to the can confirm that, as far as we can tell, no casualties
fore. I welcome the Department for Work and Pensions were sustained last night by the US and no British
review of the special rules for terminal illness announced personnel were injured in the attacks. We are of course
last July, but may I ask the Prime Minister to join me in doing everything we can to protect UK interests in the
pressing the DWP to complete its review and to scrap region, with HMS Defender and HMS Montrose operating
six months? in an enhanced state of readiness to protect shipping in
377 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 378

the Gulf. As the House heard yesterday from my right should be the wish of this House—that we do everything
hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, we have we can to support the security and integrity of Iraq and
relocated non-essential personnel from Baghdad to Taji, the Iraqi people.
and we will do everything we can to prevent an escalation.
Jeremy Corbyn: My question was whether the
Jeremy Corbyn: The Government have said that they Government would respect the sovereignty of Iraq, its
are sympathetic to the assassination of General Soleimani. Parliament and its Government, and the Prime Minister
What evidence has the Prime Minister got to suggest did not answer that question.
that this attack on General Soleimani, and his death, The actions of the United States have undoubtedly
was not an illegal act by the United States? escalated the risk of a dangerous conflict in an already
destabilised region, putting civilians, UK troops and
nationals at risk and leaving the Iran nuclear deal in
The Prime Minister: Clearly, the strict issue of legality
danger of being dead in the water. This Government’s
is not for the UK to determine, since it was not our
response is not putting the interests of this country first
operation. I think that most reasonable people would
but instead seems more interested in prioritising the
accept that the United States has a right to protect its
Prime Minister’s relationship with President Trump over
bases and its personnel. I remind the House that the
the security of the region and of this country. Is not the
individual concerned—General Qasem Soleimani—was,
truth that this Prime Minister is unable to stand up to
among other things, responsible over many years for
President Trump because he has hitched his wagon to a
arming the Houthis with missiles with which they attacked
trade deal with the United States, and that takes priority
innocent civilians; arming Hezbollah with missiles, which
over everything else that he ought to be considering?
again they used to attack innocent civilians; sustaining
the Assad regime in Syria, which is one of the most
The Prime Minister: I was waiting for the little green
brutal and barbaric regimes in the world; and, of course,
men thing to come out at the end about the trade deal.
supplying improvised explosive devices to terrorists who,
This is absolute fiction.
I am afraid, killed and maimed British troops. That
man had the blood of British troops on his hands. But what I will say is that the UK will continue to
work for de-escalation in the region. I think we are
having a great deal of success in bringing together a
Jeremy Corbyn: If we stand by international law, as I European response and in bridging the European response
am sure the Government do and would want to, surely with that, of course, of our American friends, and
killing somebody in a foreign territory is an illegal act working both with the Iranians and with the Iraqis to
and should be condemned as such. If we believe in dial this thing down. The right hon. Gentleman should
international law, it should be the solution to the problems be in absolutely no doubt—this is, of course, a Leader
in the world. As a permanent member of the United of the Opposition who has famously received £10,000
Nations Security Council, could the Government say from the Iranian Press TV—that we are determined to
what representations have been made to ensure that the guarantee with everything that we can the safety and
Iranian officials who want to attend the Security Council security of the people of Iraq, whereas he, of course,
to try to bring about a resolution to the very dangerous would disband NATO. It is this Government who will
situation in the region will be allowed to attend? In the continue to stick up for the people across the middle
event of the US Administration blocking them, what east who have suffered at the hands of Qasem Soleimani
representations will the Prime Minister personally make and the Iranian revolutionary guard Quds force that he
to President Trump to ensure that the UN can operate has led and whose terrorism he has promoted. I am very
in the way in which it should and must be able to? surprised at the end of these exchanges that the right
hon. Gentleman has yet to condemn the activities of
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is Qasem Soleimani and the revolutionary guard.
probably well aware that the United States has a duty
under international law to allow people to visit the UN, Q2. [900071] Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con):
and that is indeed the position that the UK supports. In the past 10 years, there have been volumes of reports,
independent reviews and recommendations calling for
an end to inappropriate in-patient care for people with
Jeremy Corbyn: The Iraqi Parliament passed a resolution
learning difficulties or challenging behaviour. In the
calling for foreign troops to leave its country. Can the
wake of the Winterbourne View scandal alone, there
Prime Minister confirm that the British Government
were seven such reports. As we start a new decade,
will respect any decision made by a sovereign Parliament
would my right hon. Friend state how many people are
and Government in Iraq that may make such a request
still trapped in inappropriate care settings and instruct
in the future and will respect the sovereignty of Iraq as
the Department of Health to act on those recommendations
a nation?
and the asks of families of campaigners so that these
very vulnerable people can get the care they need and
The Prime Minister: As the House can imagine, I deserve?
have spoken extensively to our friends around the world,
including our friends in Baghdad and Prime Minister The Prime Minister: I thank my right hon. Friend for
Abdul-Mahdi, who, like many people in Iraq, has come the passionate campaign that she wages. I can tell her
to rely and depend on the support of coalition forces, that the current number is 2,190, which is patently
not least from the UK. As the right hon. Gentleman unacceptable, but it is moving down. My right hon.
will know, there is a very significant NATO mission in Friend the Health Secretary tells me that the number is
Iraq at the moment, helping in the fight against Daesh. coming down rapidly. We have a pledge to reduce it by
It is my wish and the wish of this Government—and it 50%, and I am sure that he will meet her very shortly.
379 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 380

Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): May its franchise and to devolving the power and money to
I welcome you to your place, Mr Speaker, and wish you, the regions, so that local people have the power over
all Members and staff a good new year? their local transport and never have to suffer the appalling
I associate myself with the remarks of the Prime catalogue of delays, overcrowding, cancellations and
Minister for our friends in Australia and on the tragedy disruptions that have gone on far too long?
of the Ukrainian airline crash. We want to see a resumption
of democracy in Iraq. We want to see a return to peace, The Prime Minister: I have to say to the hon. Lady
and of course we support all measures to make sure that I share her outrage, and I understand what she
that diplomatic efforts can get us to a better place. says. We are developing contingency plans for a replacement
Prime Minister, who should determine the future of for Northern Rail. We are also looking at the whole way
Scotland—the Prime Minister or the people who live in that the franchising system operates, and she will have
Scotland? seen Keith Williams’s very valuable report on that.

The Prime Minister: I think the answer is very clear—it Q10. [900079] Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): My right
is the people of Scotland who voted decisively only four hon. Friend has always been a vocal advocate of localism,
or five years ago to stay members of the most successful so what advice can he give to my constituents who are
political partnership in history by a decisive majority in concerned about the local Lib Dem council’s unwanted
a once-in-a-generation choice. housing plan in Eastleigh, which would lead to even
more overdevelopment without securing the vital
Ian Blackford: This is about democracy. In 2016, the infrastructure that Eastleigh needs?
people of Scotland voted to remain in the European
Union, yet they are being dragged out of Europe against The Prime Minister: I am not surprised by what my
their will by this Prime Minister. In 2019, the people of hon. Friend says about the cavalier behaviour of the Lib
Scotland elected a majority of SNP MPs to Westminster. Dem council in Eastleigh. We will ensure that, in so far
The Scottish National party won the election on the as we need to build many more homes, which we do, we
premise of Scotland’s right to choose its own future, will supply the infrastructure necessary and do it on
rejecting the Prime Minister who lost more than half brownfield sites.
his seats in Scotland. Today, the Scottish Parliament
will decline legislative consent to the EU withdrawal Q4. [900073] Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The Prime
Bill that we are deliberating later today. Why are this Minister is a man of vision, apparently. What is his
Conservative Government dismissing the will of the vision for the constitutional relationship between Wales
people of Scotland, ignoring their voice and disregarding and England in the event of Irish reunification and
our Parliament? Scottish independence?
The Prime Minister: I think the real question is, why
do the SNP keep going on about breaking up the most The Prime Minister: Our relationship, like the relationship
successful union in history? It is to distract from their of the whole United Kingdom, will go from strength to
abundant failures in government. In spite of getting strength.
£9 billion a year from the UK Exchequer, which of
course they would lose if they were so foolish as to Q13. [900082] Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton
break away, they are mismanaging their healthcare. It is North) (Con): American company Wheelabrator has a
not the fault of Scottish pupils, but we are seeing track record of breaching environmental legislation in
Scottish schools falling behind in educational standards. the USA and now seeks to build a massive incinerator
Concentrate on what you are doing and stop going on in the beautiful Test Valley. Local residents are looking
about breaking up the Union. to this Government because of their concerns about
emissions levels and are seeking reassurance from my
Q9. [900078] Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Does the right hon. Friend that regulations on emissions from
Prime Minister agree that at the heart of our one nation incineration will be further enhanced and greener
Government is our manifesto commitment that alternatives encouraged.
“A strong society needs strong families”?
After last week’s £165 million boost to extend the The Prime Minister: I see my right hon. Friend’s point
troubled families programme, will he outline how the with great concern. As we move to a net zero economy
Government will additionally fulfil our manifesto pledge by 2050 under this groundbreaking Conservative
to champion family hubs, to Government, it is vital that we tackle those kinds of
“serve vulnerable families with the intensive, integrated support
emissions. That is why we are establishing the Office for
they need to care for children”? Environmental Protection, and I will chair a new Cabinet
Committee to drive forward action on climate change
The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend across the whole of Government.
for all that she has done to campaign for families. It was
thanks to her, I think, that we put family hubs in the Q5. [900074] Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab):
manifesto, so she should be in no doubt that we are Happy new year to you and all your staff, Mr Speaker,
working with local authorities to champion and deliver and everyone in the House. The Prime Minister knows
family hubs. that his “Get Brexit done” slogan was vacuous. He also
knows that it is not even the end of the beginning, with
Q3. [900072] Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Finally, no deal firmly back on the table. Will he now acknowledge
it appears that some action is being taken against Northern that any job lost and any impact on British industry as a
Rail. Will the Prime Minister commit to stripping it of result of his Brexit policy is firmly at his door?
381 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 382

The Prime Minister: Contrary to the predictions of Q7. [900076] Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): For
the gloomsters, unemployment is at a record low—we more than two years, I have been campaigning on
have put on about 800,000 jobs since the referendum—and behalf of my constituents in Harthill and 4,000 other
we will indeed get Brexit done by 31 January. low-income Roadchef workers across the UK who have
waited more than 20 years to receive share ownership
Q15. [900084] Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North money that is rightfully theirs. In 2018 there was a
Poole) (Con): For social justice, for life chances, for breakthrough, when Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs
opportunities for the next generation, education is the agreed to repay millions of pounds in wrongfully paid
key, and that is why the Prime Minister’s pledge for tax. However, I understand that it is trying now to
additional funding is so welcome, especially for historically recoup tax on every penny possible from those low-income
underfunded areas such as Dorset and Poole; but equally workers. Given that the trust was set up as a non-tax
important are discipline and standards. Will the Prime employee ownership scheme, does the Prime Minister
Minister ensure that there is a continued focus on the think it is fair that HMRC would seek to run roughshod
most disadvantaged, especially when it comes to vital over that, and will he now meet me to discuss this
literacy and numeracy skills? projected saga?

The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed I will. I pay tribute, The Prime Minister: Yes, of course. I make a general
by the way, to my right hon. Friend the Member for point that we have done a huge amount to lift the
Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Nick Gibb)—where burden of taxation on the low-paid, and we are lifting
is he?—who campaigned for so long for synthetic phonics, the living wage by the biggest ever increase, but I know
which has done such a huge amount to help kids to read that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will welcome
in this country. This is the only country in the G7 where the opportunity to discuss the particular matter that the
the reading performance of disadvantaged pupils has hon. Gentleman raises in person.
actually improved since 2009. We need to do more, and
as my hon. Friend says, that is why we are investing more Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con):
now—record sums—in education. In the period 2018 to 2019, overseas companies investing
in Northern Ireland created nearly 1,500 new jobs.
Q6. [900075] Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP): Does my right hon. Friend agree that if Stormont were
Margaret Thatcher— to be up and running again, then this year that number
would be considerably higher, and that it is important
Hon. Members: Hurrah! that no stone is left unturned in efforts by the Northern
Ireland parties to seek agreement so that the Northern
Mr Speaker: Order. Ireland Assembly can be properly functioning again?

Brendan O’Hara: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Margaret The Prime Minister: I am proud to say that the UK is
Thatcher, John Major and the right hon. Gentleman’s now the third highest recipient of foreign investment in
immediate predecessor all accepted that the Union of the world, but Northern Ireland could get even more
the United Kingdom can only be maintained by consent. than it currently does if, as my hon. Friend rightly says,
Yet despite winning three elections seeking to test that people took their responsibilities and got Stormont up
consent, the Prime Minister insists that the SNP and running again.
Government do not have a mandate to hold another
independence referendum, so could he tell me exactly Q8. [900077] Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP):
what mechanism is available to the Scottish people to In the twilight of the last Parliament both the Scottish
give their consent or otherwise for maintaining this Affairs and Health Select Committees produced reports
Union, and how they should go about exercising that? on the drugs crisis. Both reports drew on international
evidence and recommended a change in the law to allow
The Prime Minister: I can only repeat my point, vulnerable addicts to be able to consume substances in
which is that the Scottish people do have a mechanism. secure facilities under medical supervision. I know this
They used it in 2014: it is a referendum. It took place, is a complex and controversial area and I am not
and as I think SNP Members all confirmed, it was a expecting the Prime Minister to make policy on the hoof,
once-in-a-generation event. but I want to ask him whether he will consider, on a
pilot basis, the establishment of overdose prevention
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): centres in order to gather evidence as to whether that
Mr Speaker, you, being a northern MP like myself, could help prevent deaths in this country, as it has in
would welcome the news that more money is going to other countries.
be spent in the north of England. I want to reiterate
that Morecambe needs the Eden Project. Would my The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
right hon. Friend the Prime Minister like to come to for raising a very important issue and a difficult problem.
Morecambe to see me and the Eden team about getting The question is how do we, as it were, introduce
the Eden Project back in Morecambe again, to make consumption rooms without encouraging consumption;
Morecambe the best place on the face of this earth? that is the challenge we face. As he knows, we are having
a drugs summit this year; it will be held in Scotland, and
The Prime Minister: Indeed, the Eden of Britain— we will be announcing a date shortly.
[Interruption.] I have just heard from my right hon.
Friend the Chancellor that he does indeed: the House Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): My local
should know that the Eden Project is now, thanks to the NHS trust is currently consulting on closing the stroke
Chancellor, very likely to come to Morecambe. rehabilitation service at Bishop Auckland hospital. Staff
383 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 384

on the ward are rightly very concerned about the proposed will, that way forward will remain. It is a shell that has
closure and the impact it will have on local residents, currently been voided, but it remains a shell into which
particularly those in my rural communities, so may I we can put substance again.
ask the Prime Minister whether he is willing to work
with me and the Health Secretary, take this matter Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): In recent
seriously and prove to the residents of Bishop Auckland months, the performance of West Midlands Trains for
that we are on their side? my constituents and for constituents across the region
has been absolutely woeful. Does the Prime Minister
The Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend agree with Andy Street, Mayor of the West Midlands,
on getting elected, and welcome her, and indeed all new that if it does not shape up by the end of January, it too
colleagues, to their first edition of Prime Minister’s should have an inspection by the Secretary of State for
Question Time. I thank my hon. Friend for raising her Transport and potentially have its franchise taken away?
concerns with me; I have heard just now from the
Health Secretary, passing the ball straight down the The Prime Minister: The House will have heard what
line, that he is indeed going to address the matter that I had to say to the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne
she raises as fast as possible. As she knows, we are Fovargue) about the performance of various franchise
putting record sums into the NHS and it is our intention holders across our rail network. We are looking at the
to help Bishop Auckland. whole issue and the bell is tolling for West Midlands
rail, if I hear my hon. Friend correctly.
Q11. [900080] Colleen Fletcher (Coventry North East)
(Lab): As in much of the rest of the country, hospital Q14. [900083] Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West
A&E waiting times in Coventry have been under constant Fife) (SNP): During the festive season, I was thinking
pressure, with the latest figures showing that almost a about the Prime Minister basking in his hammock in
quarter of attendances are waiting four hours or more Mustique, maybe contemplating his mandate. But that
to be seen. I am aware that the Government have made mandate is absolutely nothing compared to the mandate
commitments to invest in the NHS, so will the Prime won in Scotland by my colleagues on the SNP Benches.
Minister agree to meet a delegation from Coventry to Winning 45% of the popular vote and 80% of the seats,
discuss the prospect of opening a second walk-in centre our mandate is unassailable. The Prime Minister’s holidays
in the city to alleviate some of the pressure on our are over and it is now time to deliver on that mandate.
overstretched A&E department? The Scottish Government have an oven-ready Edinburgh
agreement 2.0. When will discussions begin?
The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Lady for raising
that issue with me, and if I cannot do it I am sure the The Prime Minister: I think I have given this answer a
Health Secretary can. couple of times already. The people of Scotland had the
chance to decide, and they decided emphatically in
Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): favour of remaining in the UK. That decision should be
Does my right hon. Friend share my concerns about the respected.
lack of educational achievement and aspiration among
so many of our working-class boys across the country? Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): I
Will he make it a top priority for his Government to warmly welcome the Prime Minister’s continued
ensure that all schoolchildren throughout the country commitment to invest and level up across our country.
are given the opportunities to maximise their talents? This will be particularly welcome in Cornwall, which
continues to be one of the poorest parts of the UK. Will
The Prime Minister: Yes I can; and not only are we the Prime Minister confirm to the people of Cornwall
investing record sums in primary and secondary education, that we will continue to be at the heart of his Government’s
but we are also setting up a national skills fund to help plans to invest in the regions of the country?
those who do not necessarily think that they are candidates
for university but have a huge amount to offer the The Prime Minister: Absolutely. I can confirm that.
economy and need all the help they can get—they have My hon. Friend and I have discussed this issue many
massive, massive potential. times. Not only will Cornwall continue to receive all the
cash it gets through the shared prosperity fund, but we
Q12. [900081] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) will do extraordinary things with infrastructure—the
(Lab): May I wish a happy new year to you, Mr Speaker, A303, you name it—to improve road and rail transport
and everyone else in the Chamber? Can the Prime to Cornwall and the NHS. Truro and Penzance and
Minister detail what steps he has taken, working in virtually every hospital in Cornwall—and St Austell—will
concert with Germany and France, in helping to restore be there.
the Iran nuclear deal since he was appointed Prime
Minister in July? Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): In
2005, my constituent Steven Gallant did a bad thing for
The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises a which he is serving a life sentence in prison. However,
very important point. As he knows, it is our view that on 29 November he was the third man on London
the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action remains the Bridge. He wrestled the knife-wielding murderous terrorist
best way of preventing nuclear proliferation in Iran—it to the ground so that police marksmen could shoot him
is the best way of encouraging the Iranians not to dead. Steven is rightly serving life in prison, but will the
develop a nuclear weapon—and we think that after this Prime Minister congratulate and pay tribute to Steven
crisis has abated, which of course we sincerely hope it for his bravery that day, which no doubt saved lives?
385 Oral Answers 8 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 386

The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for public on that day and fought a very determined terrorist.
his question and for making a very good point, on Obviously, it is not for the Government to decide these
which I think the whole House would agree. I am lost in things, but it is my hope that that gallantry will in due
admiration for the bravery of Steven Gallant, and indeed course be recognised in the proper way.
of others who went to the assistance of members of the
387 8 JANUARY 2020 Points of Order 388

Points of Order probation ombudsman appears to be investigating, there

appear to have been delays in getting a post mortem to
12.33 pm take place, according to his family. I wonder what
avenues are available to me as a Member of Parliament
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): On a point of from the London Borough of Harrow to encourage
order, Mr Speaker. I seek your advice. Yesterday, on that autopsy to take place as a matter of urgency.
re-entering the building for the first time after Christmas,
I witnessed one of the worst cases of abuse of security Mr Speaker: The issue has been raised, and the Home
staff that I have seen in my time here. One of the Secretary is here in the Chamber. This is not an issue for
Members of the other place, who I will name so as not me personally now, but I am sure that it will be picked
to incriminate anybody else—Lord Ken Maginnis—had up and dealt with.
forgotten his pass, something we have all been guilty of.
However, instead of taking the advice of the security BILLS PRESENTED
staff, who as we all know are here for our security and
safety, he proceeded to verbally abuse and shout at the WINDRUSH COMPENSATION SCHEME
member of staff, calling them “crooked” and saying did (EXPENDITURE) BILL
they not know who he was, that he had been here for Presentation and First Reading (Standing Orders Nos. 50
46 years. He refused to take the advice and assistance of and 57)
myself, the security staff and the police who then attended. Secretary Priti Patel, supported by the Prime Minister,
I have reported this incident to the authorities, but I Michael Gove, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary
seek your advice. The Member is not elected, so I am Alister Jack, Secretary Simon Hart and Kevin Foster,
interested to know to whom he is accountable, and what presented a Bill to provide for the payment out of
can be done to make sure that no member of staff on money provided by Parliament of expenditure incurred
the estate is ever treated in that way, or abused in the by the Secretary of State or a Government Department
manner that I and others witnessed yesterday. under, or in connection with, the Windrush Compensation
Scheme.
Mr Speaker: No member of staff of either House Bill read the first time; to be read a Second time
should have to put up with abuse. We have a policy that tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 4) with explanatory
runs through all of this Estate, and I always encourage notes (Bill 4-EN) .
Members to respect the people who are carrying out
their duties to make sure that we are safe. Normally, we PRISONERS (DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION ABOUT
would not name a Member of either House in this way, VICTIMS) BILL
but I take it very seriously that staff carrying out their Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
duties should not have to put up with abuse. We are Secretary Robert Buckland, supported by the Prime
aware of the situation, and I expect those in another Minister, Secretary Priti Patel, Secretary Robert Jenrick,
place to look into that. I want to reassure those staff the Attorney General, Lucy Frazer, Chris Philp, Wendy
that it will not be tolerated and we will ensure that that Morton, Victoria Atkins and Matt Warman, presented
message goes to all Members of both Houses. a Bill to require the Parole Board to take into account
any failure by a prisoner serving a sentence for unlawful
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): On a point of killing or for taking or making an indecent image of a
order, Mr Speaker. I do not think that it will have child to disclose information about the victim.
escaped anybody’s attention—nevertheless, it is worth
Bill read the first time; to be read a Second time
making the point—that we went through all the names
tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 3) with explanatory
on the Order Paper for Prime Minister’s questions and a
notes (Bill 3-EN).
number of other colleagues on both sides got in, and we
finished at about 12.31 pm and no one had to suffer TELECOMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE (LEASEHOLD
abuse from the Chair. With that, may I wish you a very PROPERTY) BILL
happy new year and many more? Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Speaker: I do not want to use up the time on that Matt Warman, supported by the Chancellor of the
basis, including on a point about me. Exchequer, Secretary Robert Jenrick, Secretary Andrea
Leadsom, Jesse Norman and Nigel Adams, presented a
Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): On a Bill to amend the electronic communications code set
point of order, Mr Speaker. Liridon Saliuka, who was out in Schedule 3A to the Communications Act 2003;
originally from Kosovo but had a British passport, and and for connected purposes.
who, before he was arrested and imprisoned at Belmarsh, Bill read the first time; to be read a Second time
was resident in the London Borough of Harrow, was tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 2) with explanatory
recently found dead in his cell. While the prisons and notes (Bill 2-EN).
389 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 390
Agreement) Bill
European Union (Withdrawal Clause 20 stand part.
Agreement) Bill Amendment 44, in clause 21, page 24, line 37, leave
out “appropriate” and insert “necessary”.
[2ND ALLOTTED DAY]
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring
Further considered in Committee (Progress reported, forward regulations when it is necessary to do so.
7 January)
Amendment 1, page 25, leave out lines 1 and 2 and
[SIR ROGER GALE in the Chair] insert—
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Roger Gale): “(2) A Minister of the Crown must, on or before 30 June 2020,
publish a comprehensive economic impact assessment of the
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We now embark effect of the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol and regulations
on the second day of scrutiny of the withdrawal agreement made under subsection (1) on—
Bill by a Committee of the whole House. I again gently
(a) the UK’s Internal Market and the access of Northern
remind hon. Members that Mr Speaker has determined Ireland goods to Great Britain and Great British
that this is not a suitable vehicle for maiden speeches. goods to Northern Ireland;
Any colleagues wishing to make a maiden speech should
(b) the Northern Ireland economy, including levels of
consult the Table Office, which they will find most imports and exports;
helpful.
(c) fiscal and regulatory compliance of goods travelling
Clause 18 from NI to GB and from GB to NI; and
(d) barriers to entry for third-country goods entering NI
MAIN POWER IN CONNECTION WITH OTHER SEPARATION and GB from Ireland, the rest of the EU and third
ISSUES countries.
12.39 pm (2A) The Secretary of State must make arrangements for—
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): I beg (a) a copy of each report published under subsection (2) to
to move amendment 38, page 20, line 10, leave out be laid before each House of Parliament, and
“appropriate” and insert “necessary”. conveyed to the Presiding Officer of each devolved
legislature, by the end of the day on which it is
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring
published;
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so.
(b) a motion in neutral terms, to the effect that the House
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to of Commons has considered the report, to be moved
discuss the following: in the House of Commons by a Minister of the
Amendment 39, page 20, line 18, leave out “appropriate” Crown; and
and insert “necessary”. (c) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring report to be tabled in the House of Lords and moved
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so. by a Minister of the Crown.
Amendment 47, page 20, leave out lines 25 and 26. (2B) The motions required under subsections (2A)(b) and (c)
Removing this subsection prevents Ministers from using secondary must be moved in the relevant House by a Minister of the Crown
legislation to amend primary legislation in order to implement the within the period of five calendar days beginning with the end of
withdrawal agreement. the day on which the report is laid before Parliament.
Clause 18 stand part. (2C) The Secretary of State shall make a further report under
Amendment 40, in clause 19, page 21, line 15, leave subsection (2) on or before 31 October 2020 and at least every
12 months thereafter.”
out “appropriate” and insert “necessary”.
This amendment would require the Government to deliver full
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring
transparency on the implications of the Ireland/Northern Ireland
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so.
Protocol including barriers to trade between Great Britain and
Amendment 41, page 21, line 25, leave out “appropriate” Northern Ireland.
and insert “necessary”.
Amendment 48, page 25, line 2, leave out “(including
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring modifying this Act).”
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so.
This amendment would prevent Ministers making regulations under
Amendment 42, page 21, line 34, leave out “appropriate”
this section to modify the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
and insert “necessary”.
Amendment 33, page 25, line 2, at end insert “except
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so.
repealing section 7A.”
Amendment 43, page 21, line 44, leave out “appropriate” This amendment would remove the uncertainty as to whether
and insert “necessary”. Ministers could amend or repeal the proposed new section 7A of
the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so. Amendment 50, page 25, line 3, leave out “may” and
Clause 19 stand part. insert “must”.
Amendment 24, in clause 20, page 24, line 2, at end In conjunction with Amendment 12, this would require the
insert— Government to ensure unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods
to the GB market when it makes regulations implementing the
“(1A) The payment from the Consolidated Fund or the Protocol.
National Loans Fund to the EU or an EU entity of each sum
under section (1) which results from the imposition of any Amendment 12, page 25, line 4, after first “the” insert
penalty shall be subject to approval by resolution of the House of “unfettered”.
Commons.” This amendment would require regulations to facilitate unfettered
This amendment is intended to require parliamentary approval for access of qualifying Northern Ireland goods to the market within
the payment of any fines or penalty under the withdrawal agreement. Great Britain.
391 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 392
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Amendment 13, page 25, line 16, at end insert— This amendment is intended to prevent direct or indirect commercial
“(6A) Regulations under subsection (1) must include provision discrimination against Northern Ireland products.
to prevent any direct or indirect commercial discrimination that Amendment 18, page 26, line 25, at end insert—
may arise to the detriment of businesses (including farms) in “(6B) Regulations under sub-paragraph (1) must include
Northern Ireland as a result of the Ireland/Northern Ireland provision to prevent non-tariff barriers being imposed in Great
Protocol.” Britain to exclude Northern Ireland products except to the extent
This amendment is intended to prevent direct or indirect strictly required by the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol as
commercial discrimination against Northern Ireland products. long as it remains in force.”
Amendment 14, page 25, line 16, at end insert— This amendment is intended to prevent a ‘not available in / do not
ship to NI’ approach where no sound competitive reasoning is
“(6B) Regulations under subsection (1) must include provision
supplied, in order to protect Northern Ireland consumers and
to prevent non-tariff barriers being imposed in Great Britain to
businesses.
exclude Northern Ireland products except to the extent strictly
required by the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol as long as it Amendment 19, page 26, line 25, at end insert—
remains in force.” “(6C) Regulations under sub-paragraph (1) must include
This amendment is intended to prevent a ‘not available in / do not provision to prevent the exclusion of Northern Ireland produce
ship to NI’ approach where no sound competitive reasoning is or products from British marketing campaigns or assurance,
supplied, in order to protect Northern Ireland consumers and trade and labelling schemes.”
businesses. This amendment is intended to prevent Northern Ireland products
Amendment 15, page 25, line 16, at end insert— being excluded from ‘Red Tractor’ or ‘Buy British’ marketing
schemes.
“(6C) Regulations under subsection (1) must include provision
to prevent the exclusion of Northern Ireland produce or Clause 22 stand part.
products from British marketing campaigns or assurance, trade Amendment 34, in clause 23, page 28, line 3, at end
and labelling schemes.”
insert—
This amendment is intended to prevent Northern Ireland products
being excluded from ‘Red Tractor’ or ‘Buy British’ marketing “(2) For the avoidance of doubt and without prejudice to the
schemes. generality of Schedule 3, the reference in Section 7A of the
European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (other directly
Amendment 10, page 25, line 27, at end insert— applicable or directly effective aspects of the withdrawal
“(8) But regulations under this section may not— agreement) to rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions
(a) impose or increase taxation or fees, that as in accordance with the withdrawal agreement are without
further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United
(b) make retrospective provision, Kingdom, includes Article 2(1) of the Protocol on Ireland/
(c) create a relevant criminal offence, Northern Ireland of the withdrawal agreement.”
(d) establish a public authority, This amendment would ensure that any person may rely directly on
(e) amend, repeal or revoke the Human Rights Act 1998 Article 2(1) of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland before
or any subordinate legislation made under it, or any courts in the United Kingdom against all public bodies,
(f) amend or repeal the Scotland Act 1998, the Government including UK Ministers, and private bodies, such as employers.
of Wales Act 2006 or the Northern Ireland Act 1998.” Clause 23 stand part.
This amendment would apply the usual restrictions on Ministers’ Amendment 32, in schedule 3, page 61, line 17, at end
delegated power to make regulations under the Government’s insert—
proposed new section 8C of the European Union (Withdrawal)
Act 2018. “4A After section 69D insert—
‘69E Notice to be given to Commission
Clause 21 stand part.
(1) A court or tribunal shall order notice of any issue which
Amendment 45, in clause 22, page 25, line 37, leave affects law or practice relating to the protection of human rights
out “appropriate” and insert “necessary”. in any proceedings before it to be given to the Northern Ireland
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring Human Rights Commission (unless the Commission is a party to
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so. the proceedings).
Amendment 46, page 26, line 3, leave out “appropriate” (2) Where notice is given to the Commission under
and insert “necessary”. subsection (1), the court or tribunal shall—
This amendment would ensure that Ministers can only bring (a) annex a copy of the writ, originating summons or
forward regulations when it is necessary to do so. other process by which the proceedings were begun;
and
Amendment 51, page 26, line 13, leave out “may” and
(b) on request from the Commission, provide it with a
insert “must”. copy of the pleadings and any decision of the court.
In conjunction with Amendment 16, this would require devolved
(3) For the purposes of this section, “decision” shall include
authorities to ensure unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods
reasons for a decision; an award of compensation or a
to the GB market when making regulations implementing the
determination that one party is required to pay a sum to another;
Protocol.
the amount of any relevant compensation or payment; or any
Amendment 16, page 26, line 14, after first “the” order for costs, allowances, preparation time or wasted costs.’”
insert “unfettered”. This amendment would ensure the Northern Ireland Human Rights
This amendment would require regulations to facilitate unfettered Commission is notified of cases relevant to the exercise of its
access of qualifying Northern Ireland goods to the market within functions under section 69 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998,
Great Britain. similar to devolution notices provided to the Attorney General; and
to ensure coherence with exercise of functions under the new
Amendment 17, page 26, line 25, at end insert— dedicated mechanism provisions.
“(6A) Regulations under sub-paragraph (1) must include
provision to prevent any direct or indirect commercial
Amendment 30, page 63, line 39, at end insert—
discrimination that may arise to the detriment of businesses “(3) A court or tribunal shall order notice of any issue which
(including farms) in Northern Ireland as a result of the arises under Article 2(1) of the Protocol on Ireland/ Northern
Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol.” Ireland in the EU withdrawal agreement in any proceedings
393 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 394
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
before it to be given to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Member State responsible for examining an application for
Commission (unless the Commission is a party to the proceedings). international protection lodged in one of the Member States by a
(4) Where notice is given to the Commission under subsection third-country national or a stateless person (recast) in so far as
(3), the court or tribunal shall— they relate to an application for the UK to take charge of or take
back an applicant who is an unaccompanied.’”
(a) annex a copy of the writ, originating summons or
other process by which the proceedings were begun; This amendment seeks to maintain the status quo for applications
and for international protection lodged by unaccompanied children who
are third-country nationals or stateless persons.
(b) on request from the Commission, provide it with a
copy of the pleadings and any decision of the court. Amendment 26, page 37, line 3, leave out from “Europe)”
(5) For the purposes of this section, ‘decision’ shall include to the end of line 19 and insert
reasons for a decision; an award of compensation or a “the following amendments are made—
determination that one party is required to pay a sum to another; ‘(a) After subsection (1) insert—
the amount of any relevant compensation or payment; or any
order for costs, allowances, preparation time or wasted costs.” (1A) The Secretary of State must, before IP completion day,
make provision to ensure that, after the United Kingdom’s
This amendment would create a requirement for a court or tribunal
withdrawal from the EU, an unaccompanied child who has made
to notify the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission of cases
an application for international protection to a member State
relevant to the dedicated mechanism, similar to devolution issue
may, if it is in the child’s best interests, come to the United
notification already provided to the Attorney General. The
Kingdom to join a relative who—
proposal would result in an amendment to new section 78C of the
Norther Ireland Act 1998. (a) is a lawful resident of the United Kingdom, or
Amendment 31, page 63, line 39, at end insert— (b) has made a protection claim which has not been
decided.”
“(3) A court or tribunal shall order notice of any issue which
arises under Article 2(1) of the Protocol on Ireland/ Northern (b) In subsection (2) after “(1)(a)(i)” insert “and (1A)(a)”.
Ireland in the EU withdrawal agreement in any proceedings (c) In subsection (3) after “(1)(a)(ii)” insert “and (1A)(b)”.’”
before it to be given to the Equality Commission of Northern This amendment would require the UK Government to guarantee
Ireland (unless the Commission is a party to the proceedings). continued family reunion rights for unaccompanied child refugees,
(4) Where notice is given to the Commission under subsection (3), while retaining the requirement on the Government to negotiate an
the court or tribunal shall— agreement with the EU that protects those rights.
(a) annex a copy of the writ, originating summons or Amendment 4, page 37, line 3, leave out from “Europe)”
other process by which the proceedings were begun; to the end of the Clause and insert
and
“after subsection (3) insert—
(b) on request from the Commission, provide it with a
copy of the pleadings and any decision of the court. ‘(3A) If, three months after this Act comes into force, no
(5) For the purposes of this section, ‘decision’ shall include agreement achieving the objective contained in subsection (1) has
reasons for a decision; an award of compensation or a been concluded with the European Union, a Minister of the
determination that one party is required to pay a sum to another; Crown must make a statement to the House of Commons setting
the amount of any relevant compensation or payment; or any out—
order for costs, allowances, preparation time or wasted costs.” (a) the steps taken by Her Majesty’s government, and the
This amendment would create a requirement for a court or tribunal progress made in negotiations with the European
to notify the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland of cases Union, for the purpose of achieving the objective in
relevant to the dedicated mechanism, similar to devolution issue subsection (1); and
notification already provided to the Attorney General. The (b) whether in the Minister’s opinion an agreement with the
proposal would result in an amendment to new section 78C of the European Union achieving the objective of subsection
Northern Ireland Act 1998. (1) is likely to be achieved by IP completion day and, if
That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill. not, setting out the reasons for this.

Amendment 36, in clause 24, page 28, leave out (3B) Following the making of the first Statement referred to in
subsection (2), and until such time as an agreement satisfying the
line 15. objective contained in subsection (1) is reached with the
This amendment removes the bar on the Joint Committee European Union, the Minister shall, at least as frequently as
recommending an alteration in the functions of an existing every 28 days thereafter, make further statements in accordance
implementation body under the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. with sections (3A)(a) and (b).’”
Clauses 24 and 25 stand part. This amendment would protect the right for unaccompanied child
Amendment 49, in clause 26, page 30, leave out refugees to be reunited with their family after Brexit.
lines 9 to 49 on page 30 and lines 1 to 15 on page 31. Amendment 28, page 37, leave out lines 5 to 19 and
This amendment would remove the power of Ministers to specify insert—
the circumstances in which lower courts within the domestic legal “(1) A Minister of the Crown must, within 3 months of this
systems of the UK could depart from the rulings of the Court of Act coming into force, make provision for take charge requests
Justice of the European Union after the transition or from unaccompanied minors.
implementation period.
(1A) Regulations made under subsection (1) must operate in
Clauses 26 to 36 stand part. such a way that the provisions of Regulation (EU) No 604/2013
Amendment 29, in clause 37, page 37, line 2, leave out as they relate to unaccompanied minors are effective in UK
domestic law.
from “Europe),” to the end of line 19 and insert
“after subsection (1) insert— (1B) The Immigration, Nationality and Asylum (EU Exit)
Regulations 2019 are amended by omitting subparagraph 3(h) in
‘(1A) In seeking to negotiate an agreement under subsection (1), Part 2 of Schedule 1 to those Regulations.
it shall be an over-riding objective of the Minister of the Crown
to secure outcomes which match as closely as possible those (1C) In this section, “take charge requests” and “unaccompanied
which applied before exit day under Regulation (EU) No 604/2013 minor”have the same meaning as under Regulation (EU) No 604/2013.”
of the European Parliament and of the Council of 26 June 2013 This amendment will ensure that the UK continues to accept take
establishing the criteria and mechanisms for determining the charge requests from unaccompanied minors.
395 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 396
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Clause 37 stand part. (a) a statement that political agreement has been reached,
and
New clause 1—Parliamentary sovereignty over negotiations
for the future relationship— (b) a copy of the negotiated future relationship treaty.
‘After section 13B of the European Union (Withdrawal) (10) Prior to the laying of the text of the proposed treaty, the
Act 2018 (certain dispute procedures under withdrawal Secretary of State must have consulted with each devolved
agreement) (for which see section 30 above) insert— administration on the text of the proposed agreement and taken
their views into account, with special consideration given to
“13C Negotiations for future relationship matters relating to devolved competences.
(1) A Minister of the Crown must, before the end of the period (11) A treaty in the same form, or to substantially the same
of 30 Commons sitting days beginning with the day on which effect, as the negotiated future relationship treaty may be ratified
exit day falls, make a statement on objectives for the future only if the negotiated future relationship treaty has been
relationship with the EU. approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion
(2) A Minister of the Crown may, at any time after the initial moved by a Minister of the Crown and—
statement is made, make a revised statement on objectives for the (a) the House of Lords has not resolved, within the period
future relationship with the EU. of 14 Lords sitting days beginning with the day on
(3) A Minister of the Crown may not engage in negotiations which the negotiated future relationship treaty is laid
on the future relationship with the EU unless— before that House, that any treaty resulting from it
(a) a statement on objectives for the future relationship should not be ratified, or
with the EU has been approved by the House of (b) if the House of Lords has so resolved within that
Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the period, a Minister of the Crown has laid before each
Crown that can be amended by the House of House of Parliament a statement indicating that the
Commons so as to change the objectives for the Minister is of the opinion that the treaty should
future relationship, and nevertheless be ratified and explaining why.
(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of that (12) Section 20 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance
statement has been moved in that House. Act 2010 (treaties to be laid before Parliament before ratification)
(4) Prior to the House of Commons’s consideration of a does not apply in relation to a treaty if subsection (11) applies in
motion under subsection (3)(a), a Minister of the Crown must relation to the ratification of that treaty.
have consulted with each devolved administration on the (13) In this section—
negotiating mandate.
“devolved legislature” means—
(5) In conducting negotiations on the future relationship with (a) the Scottish Parliament,
the EU, a Minister of the Crown must seek to achieve the
objectives set out in the most recent statement on objectives for (b) the National Assembly for Wales, or
the future relationship with the EU to have been— (c) the Northern Ireland Assembly;
(a) approved by a resolution of the House of Commons “future relationship with the EU” means the main
on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown, and arrangements which are designed to govern the
(b) the subject of a motion of the kind mentioned in security and economic aspects of the long-term
subsection (3)(b). relationship between the United Kingdom and
the EU after IP completion day and to replace or
(6) The Secretary of State must publish the negotiating text of modify the arrangements which apply during the
a proposed future relationship agreement on the same day that implementation period, but does not include the
they are shared with EU negotiators. withdrawal agreement;
(7) After the end of each reporting period, a Minister of the “negotiated future relationship treaty” means a draft
Crown must— of a treaty identified in a statement that political
(a) lay before each House of Parliament a report on the agreement has been reached;
progress made, by the end of the period, in “negotiations” means negotiations the opening of which,
negotiations on the future relationship with the EU, on behalf of the EU, has been authorised under
including— Article 218 of the Treaty on the Functioning of
(i) the Minister’s assessment of the extent to which the the European Union;
outcome of those negotiations is likely to reflect “reporting period” means—
the most recent statement on objectives for the (a) the period of three months beginning with the
future relationship with the EU to have been first day on which a statement on objectives
approved by the House of Commons, and the for the future relationship with the EU is
subject of a motion in the House of Lords, as approved by a resolution of the House of
mentioned in subsection (3), and Commons on a motion moved by a Minister
(ii) if the Minister’s assessment is that the future of the Crown, and
relationship with the EU is, in any respect, not
(b) each subsequent period of one month;
likely to reflect that statement, an explanation of
why that is so, and “statement on objectives for the future relationship
with the EU” means a statement—
(b) provide a copy of the report to the Presiding Officer of
each of the devolved legislatures and to— (a) made in writing by a Minister of the Crown
setting out proposed objectives of Her Majesty’s
(i) the Scottish Ministers,
Government in negotiations on the future
(ii) the Welsh Ministers, and relationship with the EU, and
(iii) the First Minister and deputy First Minister in (b) published in such manner as the Minister
Northern Ireland or the Executive Office in making it considers appropriate;
Northern Ireland.
“statement that political agreement has been reached”
(8) Subsections (9) and (10) apply if, in the opinion of a means a statement made in writing by a Minister
Minister of the Crown, an agreement in principle has been of the Crown which—
reached with the EU on a treaty the principal purpose of which is (a) states that, in the Minister’s opinion, an
to deal with all or part of the future relationship with the EU. agreement in principle has been reached with
(9) A Minister of the Crown must, within one week of an the EU on a treaty the principal purpose of
agreement outlined in subsection (8), lay before each House which is to deal with all or part of the future
of Parliament— relationship with the EU, and
397 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 398
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(b) identifies a draft of that treaty which, in the (i) the Minister’s assessment of the extent to which the
Minister’s opinion, reflects the agreement in outcome of those negotiations is likely to reflect
principle; the negotiating mandate approved under subsection
“treaty” has the same meaning as in Part 2 of the (1)(b), and
Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 (ii) if the Minister’s assessment is that the future
(see section 25(1) and (2) of that Act).”’ relationship with the EU is, in any respect, not
This new clause restores the role for Parliament in providing likely to reflect that mandate, an explanation of
scrutiny and oversight in the negotiations over the UK’s future why that is so, and
relationship with the EU. (b) lay before each House of Parliament the latest rounds
New clause 6—Parliamentary approval of the future of negotiating texts, by the end of each reporting
relationship— period, and
“(1) The Secretary of State may not engage in negotiations on (c) provide a copy of the report to the Presiding Officer of
the future relationship between the UK and the EU until a each of the devolved legislatures and to—
Minister of the Crown has laid a draft negotiating mandate (i) the Scottish Ministers,
before each House of Parliament and— (ii) the Welsh Ministers, and
(a) moved an amendable motion in the House of Commons (iii) the First Minister and deputy First Minister in
containing the text of the draft negotiating mandate; Northern Ireland or the Executive Office in
(b) the draft negotiating mandate (as amended) has been Northern Ireland.
approved by a resolution of the House of Commons, (8) Subsections (9) to (13) apply if, in the opinion of a Minister
and of the Crown, an agreement in principle has been reached with
(c) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the the EU on a treaty the principal purpose of which is to deal with
draft negotiating mandate has been moved in that all or part of the future relationship with the EU.
House by a Minister of the Crown.
(9) A Minister of the Crown must lay before each House of
(2) The draft negotiating mandate must set out in detail— Parliament—
(a) the UK’s negotiation objectives, (a) a statement that political agreement has been reached,
(b) all fields and sectors to be included in the proposed and
negotiations, (b) a copy of the negotiated future relationship treaty.
(c) the principles to underpin the proposed negotiation, (10) Prior to the laying of the text of the proposed treaty, the
(d) any limits on the proposed negotiations, and Secretary of State must have consulted with each devolved
(e) the desired outcomes from the proposed negotiations. administration on the text of the proposed agreement and taken
(3) Prior to laying the draft negotiating mandate, a Minister of their views into account, with special consideration given to
the Crown must have consulted each devolved administration on matters relating to devolved competences.
the negotiating mandate. (11) Prior to considering a motion approving the text of the
(4) Prior to the House’s consideration of a motion under negotiated future relationship treaty, the Government must lay
subsection (1)(b), a Minister of the Crown must lay before both before each House of Parliament a response to any report by a
Houses of Parliament a sustainability impact assessment relevant Parliamentary committee (such as the Exiting the EU
conducted by a credible body independent of government select committee) containing a recommendation in relation to the
following consultation with— ratification of the agreement.
(a) each devolved administration, (12) A treaty in the same form, or to substantially the same
effect, as the negotiated future relationship treaty may be ratified
(b) public bodies, businesses, trade unions and non-
only if the negotiated future relationship treaty has been
governmental organisations which, in the opinion of
approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on an
the independent body, have a relevant interest, and
amendable motion moved by a Minister of the Crown and—
(c) the public.
(a) the House of Lords has not resolved, within the period
(5) The assessment shall include both qualitative and quantitative of 14 Lords sitting days beginning with the day on
assessments of the potential impacts of the proposed trade agreement, which the negotiated future relationship treaty is laid
including— before that House, that any treaty resulting from it
(a) social, should not be ratified, or
(b) economic, (b) if the House of Lords has so resolved within that
(c) environmental, period, a Minister of the Crown has laid before each
(d) gender, House of Parliament a statement indicating that the
Minister is of the opinion that the treaty should
(e) equalities, nevertheless be ratified and explaining why.
(f) climate change,
(13) Section 20 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance
(g) human rights, Act 2010 (treaties to be laid before Parliament before ratification)
(h) labour, does not apply in relation to a treaty if subsection (11) applies in
(i) development, and relation to the ratification of that treaty.”
(j) regional This new clause ensures that MPs get a guaranteed vote with an
amendable motion on the EU-UK Future Relationship and
impacts.
negotiating objectives, and sets out scrutiny of the negotiating
(6) In conducting negotiations on the future relationship with mandate. It requires a sustainability impact assessment of the
the EU, a Minister of the Crown must seek to achieve the future relationship; the regular release of negotiation texts; and
objectives set out in the negotiating mandate approved under engagement with devolved administrations.
subsection (1)(b).
Amendment (a) to new clause 6, in line 39, after “(j)
(7) After the end of each reporting period, a Minister of the regional” insert “(k) health”
Crown must—
New clause 11—Consent and the Ireland/Northern
(a) lay before each House of Parliament a report on the
progress made, by the end of the period, in
Ireland Protocol—
negotiations on the future relationship with the EU, “(1) Nothing in this Act affects section 4(5) and 42 of the
including— Northern Ireland Act 1998.
399 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 400
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(2) Accordingly, if 30 of its members petition the Northern dependencies; and that in all treaties made by Her Majesty, her
Ireland Assembly expressing their concern about a matter which heirs, and successors, with any foreign power, Her Majesty’s
is to be voted on by the Assembly, the vote on that matter shall subjects of Northern Ireland shall have same the privileges, and
require cross-community support. be on the same footing as Her Majesty’s subjects of Great
(3) ‘Cross-community support’ in relation to a vote in the Britain.”
Northern Ireland Assembly on any matter, means— This new Clause re-states the fundamental constitutional principle
(a) the support of a majority of the members voting, a of unfettered trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
majority of the designated Nationalists voting and a New clause 15—Sovereignty and Northern Ireland
majority of the designated Unionists voting; or (No.2)—
(b) the support of 60 per cent of the members voting, “(1) Nothing in this Act affects the status of Northern Ireland
40 per cent of the designated Nationalists voting and set out in section 1 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
40 per cent of the designated Unionists voting.
(2) Accordingly, Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part
(4) “Designated Nationalist” means a member designated as a of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the
Nationalist in accordance with standing orders of the Northern consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting
Ireland Assembly and ‘designated Unionist’ is construed in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with
accordingly.” Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998.”
This new Clause re-states the existing law on the operation of This new Clause re-states the fundamental constitutional principle
cross-community support in votes of the Northern Ireland of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom, unless
Assembly. a majority of the people of Northern Ireland vote to decide
New clause 12—Consent and the Ireland/Northern otherwise.
Ireland Protocol (No. 2)— New clause 17—Objectives during negotiations—
“(1) Notifying the European Union of the outcome of the “(1) A Minister of the Crown may not engage in negotiations
democratic consent processes under Article 18 of the Ireland/ on the future relationship with the EU unless—
Northern Ireland Protocol is a matter for the Government of the
United Kingdom under paragraph 3 of Schedule 2 to the (a) a statement on objectives for the future relationship
Northern Ireland Act 1998. with the EU has been approved by the House of
Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the
(2) The Government of the United Kingdom must seek to Crown,
apply any democratic consent process under or in connection
(b) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of that
with the Withdrawal Agreement in conformity with existing
statement has been moved in that House by a
practice on votes requiring cross-community support in the
Minister of the Crown,
Northern Ireland Assembly.
(c) a motion relating to that statement has been approved
(3) The Government of the United Kingdom must accordingly by a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales,
seek to withdraw and replace any parts of the Declaration of
17 October 2019 by Her Majesty’s Government of the United (d) a motion relating to that statement has been approved
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland concerning the by a resolution of the Scottish Parliament,
operation of the Democratic consent in Northern Ireland (e) a motion relating to that statement has been approved
provision of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland which by a resolution of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
conflict with the existing practice on votes of the Northern (2) Notwithstanding subsection 1(e), a Minister of the Crown
Ireland Assembly requiring cross-community support.” may engage in negotiations on the future relationship with the
Paragraph 3(a) of the Declaration of 17 October 2019 by Her EU if the Northern Ireland Assembly has not approved the
Majesty’s Government concerning the operation of the Democratic appointment of a First Minister and deputy First Minister
consent in Northern Ireland provision of the Ireland/Northern within six weeks of the day on which this Act is passed.”
Ireland Protocol requires a threshold of a majority of members of This new clause would require the Government to seek the consent
the Northern Ireland Assembly present and voting. This new Clause of all the parliaments of the UK for its objectives during
seeks to replace that threshold with the normal cross-community negotiations on the future relationship with the EU.
support process.
New clause 21—International trade—
New clause 13—UK internal market—
“(1) The Government shall, during the implementation period,
“(1) The Government of the United Kingdom must maintain use its flexibilities under Article 129(4) of the Withdrawal
and strengthen the integrity and smooth operation of the Agreement to negotiate trade agreements with other parties.
internal market of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland. (2) The Government shall, from 1 February 2020, and subject
to the procedures for participation in the World Trade Organisation
(2) Accordingly it is a priority for the Government of the (WTO), exercise full rights as an individual member of the WTO
United Kingdom in negotiations on the future relationship with and shall seek to—
the EU to reach agreement to supersede any provisions of the
Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol which impede or conflict with (a) join any relevant committees and sub-committees that
the duty in subsection (1).” serve the UK‘s national interest, and
(b) speak in the WTO on all matters that serve the UK‘s
This new Clause seeks to replace any provisions of the
national interest, notwithstanding the Duty of Sincere
Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol which fail to maintain and
Co-operation under Article 4(3) of the Treaty on
strengthen the integrity and smooth operation of the internal
European Union and the Common Commercial Policy
market of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
which are applicable during the implementation period.”
Ireland.
This new clause would mandate the Government to participate
New clause 14—Sovereignty and Northern Ireland— actively in the World Trade Organisation to serve the UK’s national
“(1) Nothing in this Act contradicts Article 6 of the Union interest.
with Ireland Act 1800.
New clause 22—Joint Committee representation from
(2) Accordingly, Her Majesty’s subjects of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—
Northern Ireland are entitled to the same privileges, and to be on
the same footing as to encouragements and bounties on the like “After section 15B of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act
articles, being the growth, produce, or manufacture of either 2018 (Ministerial co-chairs of the Joint Committee) (for which
country respectively, and generally in respect of trade and see section 34 above) insert—
navigation in all ports and places in the United Kingdom and its ‘15BA Joint Committee representation from Northern Ireland
401 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 402
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
The United Kingdom delegation to the Joint Committee must ‘15BE Joint Consultative Working Group representation
always include representation from Northern Ireland, namely from Northern Ireland
either— The United Kingdom representatives on the Joint Consultative
(a) a representative agreed jointly by the First Minister Working Group must always include representation from Northern
and deputy First Minister, or Ireland, either—
(b) in period when there is no Northern Ireland Executive, (a) agreed jointly by the First Minister and deputy First
a representative nominated by the Head of the Minister, or
Northern Ireland Civil Service.’” (b) in period when there is no Northern Executive,
This new clause would require Northern Ireland to be represented nominated by the Head of the Northern Ireland Civil
on the Joint Committee. Service.’”
New clause 23—Joint Committee and the Belfast This new clause would require Northern Ireland to be represented
Agreement— on the Joint Consultative Working Group established under
Article 15 of the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol.
“After section 15B of the European Union (Withdrawal)
Act 2018 (Ministerial co-chairs of the Joint Committee) (for New clause 39—Fisheries—
which see section 34 above) insert— “(1) Ministers of the Crown have as an objective in
‘15BB Joint Committee and the Belfast Agreement negotiations with the EU on the future relationship preserving,
protecting and promoting the future of the fisheries industry
The United Kingdom representatives on the Joint Committee based in Northern Ireland.
must have due regard for all aspects of the Belfast Agreement
(2) In order to promote unfettered access of Northern Ireland
within their work.’”
fishermen to the UK internal market, Ministers must seek an
This new clause would require UK representatives on the Joint agreement with the EU that fish caught in compliance with UK
Committee to have due regard for all aspects of the 1998 Belfast fisheries policy by trawlers based in Northern Ireland and landed
(Good Friday) Agreement within their work. in UK harbours for the UK internal market will not require after
New clause 24—Joint Committee and Article 50 phase 1 the end of the implementation period any more documentation
report— than was required before exit day.”
This new clause aims to address a specific example of unfettered
“After section 15B of the European Union (Withdrawal) access in order to avoid an increase in paperwork being required for
Act 2018 (Ministerial co-chairs of the Joint Committee) (for the Northern Ireland fishing industry after the UK leaves the EU.
which see section 34 above) insert—
New clause 40—State aid—
‘15BC Joint Committee and Article 50 phase 1 report
“(1) The UK Government must exercise its responsibilities for
The United Kingdom representatives on the Joint Committee implementing and applying the provisions of Union law under
must have due regard within their work to the UK government Article 12 of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland in
commitments in the joint report from the negotiators of the EU accordance with this section.
and the United Kingdom Government on progress during
phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50 of the Treaty on (2) The UK Government must, when exercising its responsibilities
European Union.’” with respect to Article 10 of the Protocol (State aid) in relation to
a Northern Ireland product, take no account of whether any
This new clause would require UK representatives on the Joint products originating from Great Britain that are contained in that
Committee to have due regard within their work to the UK Northern Ireland product may have received state aid.”
government commitments in the joint report of 8 December 2017
from the negotiators of the EU and the UK on phase 1 of the This new clause would provide that any state aid provided to GB
Article 50 negotiations, including its references to unfettered access products that are included in Northern Ireland products cannot be
for Northern Ireland businesses to the whole of the United taken into account when the UK Government assesses the state aid
Kingdom internal market. status of those NI products.
New clause 25—Specialised Committee on the Ireland/ New clause 41—Regulatory divergence—
Northern Ireland Protocol Group representation from “(1) The Competition and Markets Authority must at intervals
Northern Ireland— of not more than 12 months publish an assessment as to whether
the effect of any regulatory divergence between the UK and the
“After section 15B of the European Union (Withdrawal) EU has been to place Northern Ireland businesses at a
Act 2018 (Ministerial co-chairs of the Joint Committee) (for competitive disadvantage within the UK internal market that
which see section 34 above) insert— would constitute grounds for the UK to take safeguard measures
‘15BD Specialised Committee on the Ireland/Northern under paragraph 1 of Article 16 of the Protocol on Ireland/
Ireland Protocol Group representation from Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland (2) The first assessment under subsection (1) shall be
The United Kingdom delegation on the Specialised Committee published no later than 12 months after the last day of the
on the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol Group must always implementation period.
include representation from Northern Ireland, either— (3) If the Competition and Markets Authority makes an
(a) agreed jointly by the First Minister and deputy First assessment under subsection (1) that the effect of any regulatory
Minister, or divergence is that there are grounds for the UK to take safeguard
(b) in period when there is no Northern Executive, measures, the UK Government must within three months of
nominated by the Head of the Northern Ireland Civil receiving that assessment take safeguard measures under
Service.’” Article 16 of the Protocol that are in its opinion sufficient to
remedy the competitive disadvantage.
This new clause would require Northern Ireland to be represented
on the Specialised Committee on the Ireland/Northern Ireland (4) The Competition and Markets Authority shall report its
Protocol Group established under Article 14 of the Ireland/ opinion as to the adequacy and effectiveness of any safeguard
Northern Ireland Protocol. measures under subsection (3) when making its next assessment
under subsection (1).”
New clause 26—Joint Consultative Working Group
This new clause would require regular assessments by the CMA as
representation from Northern Ireland— to whether regulatory divergence between the UK and the EH has
“After section 15B of the European Union (Withdrawal) put Northern Ireland businesses at a serious competitive
Act 2018 (Ministerial co-chairs of the Joint Committee) (for disadvantage, and in the event of such a finding would require the
which see section 34 above) insert— Government to remedy that disadvantage.
403 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 404
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
New clause 42—Specialised Committees— (3) As far as is permitted by Rule 10 of Annex VIII to the
“(1) Representatives of the United Kingdom attending withdrawal agreement, a Minister of the Crown must publish
specialised committees convened under Article 165 of the all decisions and recommendations adopted by the Joint Committee.
Withdrawal Agreement have a duty to represent the interests of (4) Before attending each session of the Joint Committee a
Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. Minister of the Crown shall make an oral statement to the House
(2) The United Kingdom Government must make arrangements of Commons setting out—
for the Northern Ireland Executive to nominate at least one (a) the purpose and agenda of that Joint Committee meeting;
representative to the specialised committee on issues related to (b) the intended policy to be pursued by the Minister
the implementation of the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol (see attending that Joint Committee meeting; and
Article 165 (v) of the withdrawal agreement and Article 14 of the
Protocol) and to each of the other specialised committees. (c) as far as possible the economic, social and environmental
impact of any proposition to be determined at the
(3) In the absence of a Northern Executive, the Secretary of Joint Committee.’”
State must nominate representatives under subsection (2) after
consulting the political parties comprising Members elected to This new clause requires the UK’s co-chair of the Joint Committee
the Northern Ireland Assembly.” to be approved by Parliament, to ask the EU for Joint Committee
meetings to be held in public where possible, for decisions of the
This new clause would ensure Northern Ireland representation on Joint Committee to be published, and for a Minister to make a
the specialised committees established under the Withdrawal statement to the House of Commons ahead of each Joint
Agreement. Committee meeting.
New clause 43—Asylum claims after exit day— New clause 52—Meaning of ‘unfettered access’—
“A Minister of the Crown must seek to negotiate, on behalf of “(1) In sections 21 and 22, ‘unfettered access’ for qualifying
the United Kingdom, an agreement with the EU which, after the Northern Ireland goods means that businesses in Northern Ireland
United Kingdom‘s withdrawal from the EU, secures outcomes must continue to be able to sell their qualifying goods to Great
matching as closely as possible those which applied before exit Britain without tariffs, origin requirements, regulatory import
day under Regulation (EU) No 604/2013 of the European controls, dual authorisations or discrimination in the market.
Parliament and of the Council of 26 June 2013 establishing the
criteria and mechanisms for determining the Member State (2) Northern Ireland businesses shall enjoy the rights under
responsible for examining an application for international subsection (1) regardless of whether they trade directly with
protection lodged in one of the Member States by a third- Great Britain or trade via Dublin port.”
country national or a stateless person (recast).” This new clause defines what ‘unfettered access’ means for the
This new clause seeks to maintain the status quo for applications purposes of Amendments 12 and 16.
for international protection lodged by a third-country national or a New clause 53—Duty of consultation when making
stateless person under the Dublin III process. regulations in connection with the Ireland/Northern Ireland
New clause 44—Preventing discrimination— Protocol—
“(1) A power of a Minister of the Crown under the law of “Before making regulations under sections 21 and 22, the
England and Wales or of Scotland to make, confirm or approve Government and the devolved authorities must consult, and take
subordinate legislation may not be exercised, on or after IP account of the views of, the Northern Ireland Executive.”
completion day, in a way that would result in law that treats This new clause would require the UK Government and the
qualifying NI goods differently from GB good, unless the devolved authorities to consult and take account of the views of the
difference in treatment is justified as mentioned in subsection (2). Northern Ireland Executive before making regulations which could
(2) A difference in treatment is justified only if it is shown to affect Northern Ireland’s place within the UK internal market.
be necessary and can deliver material benefits for the purposes
New clause 54—Consent for any new trade frictions—
of—
(a) protecting health of life of humans, animals or plants, “(1) Regulations that would introduce new requirements on
or the environment, goods traded from Northern Ireland to Great Britain (including,
but not restricted to, import customs declarations or origin
(b) protecting national security, or checks) may not come into force without the consent of the
(c) ensuring that those involved in the production, supply Northern Ireland Assembly.
or use of qualifying NI goods are put in a position (2) No additional official or administrative costs consequent
that is no less favourable overall than those involved on any such regulations may be recouped from the private sector.”
in the production, supply or use of GB goods.
This new clause would require the consent of the Northern Ireland
(3) Subsection (1) applies to a power whether conferred before,
Assembly before further trade frictions are imposed from Northern
on or after IP completion date.
Ireland to Great Britain and would protect Northern Ireland
(4) A Minister of the Crown must by regulations define ‘GB businesses from paying for the administrative costs.
goods’ for the purposes of this section.”
New clause 55—Northern Ireland’s place in the UK
This new clause would prevent a Minister of the Crown under the internal market—
law of England and Wales or of Scotland using the power to make,
confirm or approve subordinate legislation, on or after IP “(1) As part of its obligation under Article 6.2 of the Protocol
completion day, in a way that would result in law that treats on Ireland/Northern Ireland to use its best endeavours to
qualifying NI goods differently from GB goods, unless the facilitate trade between Northern Ireland and other parts of the
difference in treatment is justified as mentioned in subsection (2). UK, the UK Government must—
New clause 47—Accountability of the Joint Committee— (a) publish an assessment at least every 12 months of any
negative impacts on businesses and consumers
“After section 18 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act arising from the Protocol on trade between Great
2018 insert— Britain and Northern Ireland and vice versa; and
‘18A Accountability of the Joint Committee (b) develop mitigations to safeguard the place of Northern
(1) A motion appointing the United Kingdom’s co-chair of Ireland businesses and consumers in the UK internal
the Joint Committee shall be laid before and approved by both market.
Houses of Parliament. (2) The assessment published under paragraph (1)(a) must
(2) The United Kingdom’s co-chair of the Joint Committee include assessment of the impact of any actual or proposed
shall always request that, unless for reasons of national security, regulatory or trade policy divergence on Northern Ireland’s place
all meetings of the Joint Committee are conducted in public. in the UK Internal Market.
405 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 406
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(3) Any official or administrative costs arising from the duties Joanna Cherry: It is a pleasure to serve under your
under subsections (1) and (2) may not be recouped from the chairmanship, Sir Roger.
private sector.”
I rise to speak to amendments 38 to 49, which stand
New clause 57—Consultation with the British Irish in my name and those of some of my colleagues; to
Council— amendment 10, which stands in the name of my hon.
“The British Irish Council must be consulted prior to any Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford)
proposed changes in standards relating to food, the environment and some of my other colleagues; and to amendments 28
or employment in the process of negotiations for new trading and 29 and new clause 43, which stand in the name of
relations between the United Kingdom and the European my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth
Union.”
and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald).
New clause 58—Consultation with the British Irish
We heard a lot yesterday from those on the Government
Council (No. 2)—
Benches about the desire of the British people to get on
“The British Irish Council must be consulted prior to any with Brexit, so I would like to begin today by reminding
proposed changes in the United Kingdom’s devolution them that the UK at present consists of four constituent
settlement as a direct result of the United Kingdom leaving the
European Union, or any changes to the devolution settlement
parts, and that two out of four of them—Scotland and
resulting from future trade agreements.” Northern Ireland—have voted to remain in the EU on
every occasion they have been given, including the
New clause 60—Establishment of a mitigation package— EU referendum in 2016 and thereafter.
“(1) The United Kingdom Government must guarantee and I acknowledge and respect the fact that the Prime
fund the establishment of a mitigation package for businesses
and communities in Northern Ireland.
Minister and his party won a majority of the seats in
England, but I ask those on the Government Benches to
(2) The impact and success of this fund shall be reviewed by an pause and consider that the Prime Minister did not win
independent economic body every six months.
a majority of the seats in Wales, did not win any seats in
(3) The fund must be established in consultation with the Northern Ireland—indeed, remain parties won the majority
devolved administration in Northern Ireland.” of seats there—and that in Scotland, standing on a
New clause 61—Provision for EU Referendum in Northern manifesto commitment to deliver Brexit and prevent a
Ireland— second independence referendum, the Conservative
“(1) Provision must be made to allow for Northern Ireland and Unionist party was reduced to a rump of six MPs,
with the consent of a majority of people in Northern Ireland with the Scottish National party winning the election
voting in a poll held for the purpose, to remain or (as the case emphatically.
may be) to join the European Union. I ask then that this afternoon not be another session
(2) If the expressed wish by a majority in such a poll is for of “Scotland get back in your box” but that there is
Northern Ireland to remain or join the European Union, the some respectful recognition of the democratic desire of
Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to my constituents and the majority of constituents in
give effect to that wish as are agreed between Her Majesty‘s Scotland to remain in the EU. Rather than lectures
Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of
Ireland.
about delivering the will of the British people, let us
seriously consider that it is the role of the Opposition to
(3) This section comes into effect only after a Legislative scrutinise Bills. I realise that, inevitably, Brexit will now
Consent Motion has been approved by the Northern Ireland happen—I hope and believe that Scotland will find a
Assembly.”
way around that for Scotland—but that does not mean
New clause 63—Border Impact Assessment— there are not legitimate concerns about the way in
“(1) The United Kingdom Government must work jointly with which the Government are seeking to deliver Brexit.
and commission, alongside the Government of Ireland and the
Northern Ireland administration, an economic impact assessment Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does
on the border regions between the Republic of Ireland and the hon. and learned Lady further accept that 16.5 million
Northern Ireland.
people voted for parties either supporting remain or a
(2) This impact assessment must include recommendations on public vote on the deal versus 14.5 million who voted
economic support and investment required to aid these regions for the oven-ready Brexit? There is still a democratic
after the United Kingdom leaves the European Union.” mandate, therefore, for putting the deal to the people?
New clause 64—Role of Devolved Administrations in
trade negotiations— Joanna Cherry: I have to say that I think the ship has
“The Northern Ireland administration, alongside other sailed on that, because of the outcome of the election in
devolved governments and administrations, must have a formal England, but the ship has not sailed on Scotland’s
role in all new trade negotiations conducted by the United constitutional future, because, like it or not, the Conservative
Kingdom Government.” party was reduced to a rump of representation in Scotland
New clause 65—Trade Agreement— at the general election and my party won 47 of the
59 seats. It is surely a matter of concern in a democracy
“The Northern Ireland Assembly must give legislative consent
for any new trade agreement reached by the United Kingdom that is not a unitary state but consists of several nations
Government before new trading rules and standards are that no matter how many amendments I and my colleagues
enacted.” table to the Bill, and probably every other Bill in this
New clause 66—Maintaining EU Alignment— Session, we are unlikely to achieve a single amendment.
“The United Kingdom Government must provide an annual
Rather than the braying and jeering that occurred
analysis to the devolved administrations and governments as to when the leader of my group, my right hon. Friend the
what measures they can enact to ensure maximum regulatory Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford),
alignment with the European Union standards as the EU’s laws got up to ask his questions this afternoon, I suggest to
are updated and enhanced.” those on the Government Benches that if they really
407 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 408
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
believe in preserving the Union of the United Kingdom memorandum to the Bill states that UK Ministers “will
they might want to show a little more respect, not not normally” make regulations in relation to devolved
necessarily to me or my right hon. Friend, but to those areas
who sent us here to advocate what the majority of “without the agreement of the relevant devolved administration.”
people in Scotland want—and, whether those on the That is what the Sewel convention says, but we know
Government Benches like it or not, the majority of that it has lately been more honoured in the breach than
people in Scotland do not want to leave the European the observance.
Union but want a second opportunity to look at Scotland’s Let me ask the Secretary of State again to revisit the
constitutional future in the light of England’s decision remarks that he made yesterday. Will he acknowledge,
to leave the European Union. I defy any democrat to for the record—and these are matters on which there
say that that is not a reasonable position. I gently may be litigation in the future, so the record might be
suggest to those on the Government Benches that jeering quite important—that the clauses to which I have referred
at the representatives of voters in Scotland, shouting us give UK Ministers the power to make delegated legislation
down and rubbishing our legitimate concerns is not a in relation to devolved matters? Will he acknowledge,
sustainable position for the next five years. for the record, that that constitutes an incursion into
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I devolved policy that rightly causes concern not just to
am a Unionist, but I share the hon. and learned Lady’s the Scottish National party but to all who believe in the
view that the voices from the various and diverse parts devolved settlement?
of the United Kingdom need to be heard. She is right to I know that it is history, but 22 years ago 75% of the
say that the Government are unlikely to accept any of people of Scotland voted for that devolved settlement.
the amendments that represent legitimate concerns, not It is worth remembering that the background against
least among those of us who represent Northern Ireland. which they did so was years and years of Scotland
Indeed, all the main parties have come together in an voting Labour but getting a Conservative Government.
unprecedented way to back many of these amendments. Now they are seeing years and years of Scotland voting
I hope that, post the withdrawal agreement, there will SNP but getting a Conservative Government. I think it
be more consultation and discussion that will include reasonable to draw a lesson from that history: there
the representatives of the various parts of the United probably will be another constitutional referendum in
Kingdom. Scotland soon, because the tension that now exists is
similar to the tension that existed in the 1990s. I look
12.45 pm forward to hearing from the Secretary of State later
today an acknowledgement of the power that is being
Joanna Cherry: There is not much on which the right
taken by the British Government.
hon. Gentleman and I will agree, but we can agree on
this point. There needs to be a recognition, along with Overall, I would say that this Bill is about the Executive
the triumphalism of members of the Conservative and taking as much power to themselves as possible, not just
Unionist party about their win in England—which I from the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly
understand, because we feel pretty triumphal about our but from this Parliament, with their swingeing use of
win in Scotland—that, if theirs really is a Unionist delegated legislation and, in relation to clause 26, which
party, they must engage properly with the representatives I will come to in a moment, from the judiciary.
of the other parts of the United Kingdom. The Conservative and Unionist party’s manifesto
Before I deal with the amendments in this group, let revealed that the Government’s aim was to change the
me raise again with Ministers the points that I made balance between Government, Parliament and the courts
yesterday about the sweeping powers that the Government and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire
are taking to themselves in clauses 3, 12, 13, 14, 18, 21 (Dr Whitford) said yesterday, we see in this Bill the
and 27 to table delegated legislation making provision beginning of the changing of that balance. We also see a
for areas of devolved policy. The Secretary of State continued attack on rights, not just the undermining of
tried to rubbish my interventions yesterday, but if he EU citizens’ rights, as we heard yesterday, and not just
had time to read the independent report of the Scottish the undermining of workers’ rights, which we will come
Parliament Information Centre overnight he will know to later today, but the rights of child refugees.
that this is not some SNP party political diatribe, and It is fair to say that it is the proposal in the part of the
that careful analysis of the Bill makes clear that it is a Bill that we are discussing that has excited the most public
matter of fact that the Government are taking to themselves comment. I have certainly received many communications
the right of British Ministers, acting alone, to produce from constituents who are worried about this, and in
delegated legislation in relation to devolved areas. That that connection I wish to speak to the amendments
shows that the paragraph about which the SNP has tabled in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for
complained on a number of occasions will actually be Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East—new
included. clause 43, amendment 28 and amendment 29—and at
The Secretary of State tried to deflect me yesterday, least to address them at this stage, whether or not they
first by saying that the power related to reserved matters. are made, which is perhaps a matter for later.
That was simply not correct, as it clearly relates to Across Europe, thousands of unaccompanied children
devolved matters. He then suggested that the power that are living in the most desperate circumstances, many of
the Government were taking was merely technical. He whom are separated from their families. Legal family
will, of course, know that the Sewel convention does reunion is a lifeline to those children, who would otherwise
not apply to delegated legislation, although it probably risk their lives in dinghies or in the back of lorries to
would not matter if it did, because the Government are reach a place of safety with their families. We have seen
now prepared to drive a coach and horses through some pretty awful evidence recently of what can happen
it. Interestingly, the Government’s delegated powers when refugees resort to dinghies or the backs of lorries.
409 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 410
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Joanna Cherry] has asked for enshrined in legislation. I had thought
that the Government were committed to doing that,
In 2018, in recognition of that fact, a cross-party and it is disappointing if they are not. If the Government
coalition in this House, including prominent Members want to reflect public opinion out in the street and
of all parties, including the Conservative and Unionist mostly reflect public opinion in the constituency of
party, recognised the humanitarian need for family Strangford and elsewhere, they should listen to the
reunion to continue and secured a legal commitment voices of the churches, the community groups and the
from the then Government to negotiate a replacement individuals who want to see this happening. With that
for the current rules when we leave the European Union. in mind, I will support the hon. and learned Lady.
For the Government now to seek to remove those
protections risks causing panic among refugee families Joanna Cherry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
currently separated in Europe, with potentially tragic for his comments, with which I entirely agree.
consequences. It is also deeply unacceptable to the Among the amendments that have been crafted by
constituents of many MPs in this House. the SNP, new clause 43 is designed to oblige the Government
The Government say that they are going to continue to negotiate an agreement so that Dublin III as a whole
with refugee family reunion, so it is not clear to me why continues as closely as possible to the current arrangements.
they are going to the trouble of taking that commitment So far as we can make out, it is different from other
out of this Bill, unless they want to hedge their bets a Opposition amendments, which focus only on children
bit. Based on experience, that is what I suspect they are with family here. Our purpose is to challenge the
up to. Without this obligation in the Bill, there will be Government to explain why the broader Dublin III system
no obligation on the Government to ensure that family is not worth saving.
reunion continues beyond the very restrictive rules in Amendment 28 relates specifically to children. Again,
United Kingdom law. so far as we can see, it is the only Opposition amendment
that goes beyond seeking an agreement and requires
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): Ministers to put in place a scheme so that we keep
I was one of the supporters of the original family accepting take-charge requests from unaccompanied
reunification amendments. I trust the Government and minors. We in the SNP ask why that should be negotiated
that this commitment will be stuck to in the appropriate away. If we believe that children seeking international
place—an immigration Bill. Does the hon. and learned protection are best placed with their families, let us
Lady acknowledge, however, that post-Dublin III there allow that to happen in the United Kingdom. If we get
is a potential problem with the full extent of those an agreement that the arrangement is mutual with the
family members who qualify for family reunification, EU, that would be great, but why wait? Are we seriously
and that that needs to be sorted out? There is also a saying that, in the unlikely event that the European
problem with the rate at which potential applicants are Union decides to play bad cop, global Britain will not
processed in places such as Greece and Italy, which is take these children?
not working well, and with the cost of applications. The
whole scheme needs to be properly overhauled, and just Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I am
bunging it into this Bill is not necessarily the best way of following carefully the argument that the hon. and learned
getting the best result that we all want. Lady is making. Does she not agree that the obligation
the Government already have, under the Borders,
Joanna Cherry: The answer to that is that the whole Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, to protect the
scheme is not being bunged into this Bill. The obligation best interests of children would be an essential factor in
to maintain certain minimum-level requirements is being considering exactly the amendments that she is discussing,
taken out by the Bill, although it was agreed by cross-party and that if they are refusing to accept those amendments,
Members, including the hon. Member for East Worthing they are undermining that legislation and the intention
and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), in the last Parliament. behind it?
The UK’s immigration rules as they stand—apart Joanna Cherry: I entirely agree with that point.
from some very limited circumstances—allow children
to reunite only with parents, not with other relatives, in Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford)
the UK. Under the EU Dublin III regulation, children (Lab): Does the hon. and learned Lady also find it
have a legal route to reunite with other family members troubling that the Government have chosen to remove
such as siblings, grandparents, aunts and uncles, and the obligations in the European Union (Withdrawal)
95% of children that the charity Safe Passage supports Act 2018 that everyone had accepted? They had been
to reunite with family safely and legally would be ineligible supported by Government Ministers and by this House
under the current UK rules. The consequence of this is as a sensible objective to negotiate an agreement to
that they would be forced to remain alone, separated ensure that some of those vulnerable children could be
from their families. There is a legitimate concern that reunited with their families. It was the most innocuous
taking out this previous commitment, through the element of that Act, and it is therefore inexplicable that
Bill, is the beginning of a move towards an absolutely Government Ministers should suddenly decide that they
minimalist approach by the Government to their rights want to take it away.
and duties.
Joanna Cherry: I agree. It is inexplicable, unless
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I want to put on Government Ministers want to take the advantage of
record in Hansard that lots of people have contacted me the majority they have secured from the English electorate
by email about the issue that the hon. and learned Lady to renege on an important humanitarian commitment,
is referring to. There are many churches and many which, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)
individuals in my constituency that want to see what she has said, represents the best about what people across
411 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 412
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
these islands hold dear in their Christian faith, their Moving on to amendment 10, in the name of my hon.
other faiths or their humanitarianism. It is incumbent Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire, I believe that
on the Government to tell us what they are really up to. she will speak about it later or may wish to intervene on
me, but I will just deal with it fairly briefly, because it is
Geraint Davies: Will the hon. and learned Lady give important. Others will obviously speak about Northern
way? Ireland at length this afternoon, but amendment 10
deals with powers in relation to implementing the Northern
Joanna Cherry: I want to make a bit of progress now. Ireland protocol. As my hon. Friend said yesterday, the
I want to deal briefly with amendment 29, which is arrangements in relation to the protocol are pretty
similar to ones advanced by other Opposition parties. It sketchy, with almost everything left to the Joint Committee
simply puts back in the Bill the obligation to negotiate to work out and then to be enacted, again, through
an agreement for unaccompanied children. We see that delegated powers.
very much as a fall-back, and we would like the House However, a significant difference exists between the
to go further than that. restrictions on the powers afforded under proposed new
I want to move quickly on to deal with my amendment 38 section 8C and those under previous similar sections,
and those that follow it, which relate to the extent to such as section 8B(5) of the European Union (Withdrawal)
which the Bill resorts to delegated powers in order for Act 2018, because there is no restriction on the powers,
the Government to change the law in ways they feel are for example, in relation to their ability to impinge on the
appropriate—not necessary, but appropriate—in relation devolved settlements of Scotland and Wales. Of course,
to our withdrawal from the European Union. The Bill concerns exist about the extent to which business
enables the Government to make potentially huge changes organisations, the food and drink industry and, particularly,
to the law through secondary legislation that cannot inshore fishing, as we heard yesterday, could be impacted
possibly enjoy the same level of scrutiny by this Parliament upon in Scotland by the Northern Ireland protocol.
that one might expect in a properly functioning
constitutional democracy that is contemplating such Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): This
significant change as this Parliament seems determined obviously also relates to the Northern Ireland Act 1998
to embark upon. and is of concern, perhaps in this Chamber, in relation
to the Human Rights Act 1998. Looking at what proposed
1 pm new section 8C would replace, the 2018 Act contains
In the previous Parliament, I pressed Ministers to limitations that had become relatively standard, so I
explain why the determining factor for the use of extensive find it suspicious that they are missing. There is no
delegated powers was whether they felt them to be sunset clause, no restriction on taxes or new offences
appropriate, rather than necessary. “Appropriate” sets a and, in particular, no protection for the devolved
very low and subjective threshold, enabling Ministers to Administrations or the Human Rights Act. That is
implement a wide range of legislative measures without really worrying, because we are being asked to sign up
adequate parliamentary scrutiny. Many independent to something when we have no idea of the long-term
bodies, such as the Law Society of England and Wales ramifications.
and the Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform
Committee, have suggested, as my amendments do, that Joanna Cherry: As, I think, a Committee of the
the test should be narrowed to an objective test of House of Lords pointed out, it is unusual for restrictions
necessity. If the role of Parliament in scrutinising delegated in relation to the Human Rights Act, the Scotland
legislation will be reduced, the only other mechanism to Act 1998, the Government of Wales Act 2006 and the
scrutinise it will be through judicial review, and that Northern Ireland Act 1998 not to appear in relation to
puts quite a heavy burden on the individual. delegated powers, so I am interested in hearing why
those restrictions do not appear and in learning how the
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): My hon. Government think the implementation of the Northern
and learned Friend is making an important point. I sat Irish protocol will impact upon the Scotland Act. Indeed,
on many Delegated Legislation Committees in the previous I am in interested in the impact on the Government of
Parliament, and their ability to amend anything is nil. Wales Act and the Human Rights Act, and why the
Does she agree that that is a woefully inadequate process, Government want to take delegated powers to interfere
because while there is some degree of scrutiny, there is with the Human Rights Act and the devolved settlement
certainly no ability to change anything? in Scotland.
Turning quickly to clause 26 and my amendment 49,
Joanna Cherry: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. they relate to the concern expressed by many that the
The reality is that if this discretion will be scrutinised Government are amending section 6 of the European
only in the courts after individuals have raised concerns Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018—the original provision
about the impact of delegated legislation on their rights, being that the Supreme Court for the whole of the UK
then the breadth of discretion that the judiciary has to or, in relation to criminal matters, the High Court of
determine whether something is appropriate rather than Justiciary were not bound by retained EU case law and
necessary could be quite problematic. Indeed, that was could depart from that case law in the same way that
reflected in the previous Parliament by judicial concerns those Supreme Courts would depart from their own
about the breadth of discretion afforded by the word case law. However, in an almost—I think I am correct in
“appropriate.” I tried on numerous occasions in the saying—unprecedented use of delegated legislation, in
previous Parliament to get Ministers to explain why clause 26 the Government intend to take the power to
they must have “appropriate” rather than “necessary,” pass regulations specifying additional courts or tribunals
but I am not a quitter, so I will try again today, and I that could depart from EU law. That is a most unusual
will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say. approach, and I am wondering what has prompted it.
413 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 414
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Joanna Cherry] for Scotland. I look forward to seeing whether the
Government have any proposals to reverse that in this
I am interested in the justification for clause 26. Is it Parliament.
an act of revenge on the Supreme Court of the United To return to what I said at the opening of my remarks,
Kingdom and the Supreme Court of Scotland for daring I say to the Government that the day is coming when
to defy the previous Conservative Government by ruling the people of Scotland will once again vote on whether
their unlawful Prorogation out of order, or is there Scotland should regain its former status as an independent
some other rationale? I would be interested to hear nation state. The hubris, insouciance and lack of respect
what it is, because their lordships were taking a close for democracy embodied in this Bill will hasten that
interest in this clause. Even if I am not able to move the date and ensure victory for the independence movement.
SNP amendment to the clause today, which would
revert to the status quo in the previous Act, I am sure it Several hon. Members rose—
will be moved in the House of Lords, because there is a
real concern that the aim here is to impact upon the The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Roger Gale):
independence of the judiciary, and that different regulations Order. For clarification, and as the hon. and learned
applying to different courts about the extent to which Lady indicated, although a considerable number of
EU law was overruled or could be applied will interfere amendments and new clauses have been grouped for debate
with the important principle of legal certainty. In some under this group, only the lead amendment at this stage
ways, this is a probing amendment, but it is an amendment is moved, so the Question is that amendment 38 be
which, if not moved in this House, will be moved made. It gives me pleasure to call, for what will be his
elsewhere, so it would be interesting to hear from the maiden speech in his capacity as a knight of the realm,
Government exactly why they consider it necessary to Sir Robert Neill.
diverge so radically from the previous a course of action
upon which they were determined. Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con):
Before I conclude, I want to say a few brief things Thank you very much indeed, Sir Roger. It is a pleasure
about a number of important amendments tabled by to see you in the Chair and to follow the hon. and
the other parties. The SNP would be inclined to support learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna
the official Opposition’s amendment 4 on child refugees Cherry). I do not share her political analysis, but I do
if they move it, although we would like to go a bit further have sympathy with some of the legal points she raises,
than that, as I indicated earlier. We are also keen to which I will address.
support amendments from the official Opposition relating I will start with the interpretation of retained EU law,
to transparency on the arrangements for Northern Ireland which raises an important issue. As the hon. and learned
and on general scrutiny and oversight. We also give our Lady has said, concerns have been raised by many
wholehearted support to the amendment tabled by the lawyers, regardless of their political views. I speak as
hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) someone who supported the Bill’s Second Reading,
and to new clause 17 from our friends in Plaid Cymru. who will support it on Report and on Third Reading,
It is, of course, a great pleasure, particularly for myself and who stood on a manifesto commitment to implement
and my colleagues in the SNP, to have the company of the Bill. The lawyer in me, however, says that it is
Irish nationalists once more in this Chamber. While I particularly important that we get this detail right. That
totally respect and understand Sinn Féin’s historical is why I hope I can press Ministers for a little more detail
reasons for abstentionism, it is good that we will again and explanation as to why they have chosen a particular
hear the voice of Irish nationalism on the Floor of this course to achieve their objectives.
House and the voice of a significant part of the community I accept that there will be circumstances in which it
in Northern Ireland. It is good to be reminded that will be necessary for courts to depart from EU law once
Northern Ireland, like Scotland, voted to remain in the we have left the European Union. I have no problem
European Union. We will be keen to lend our support at all with that. I am concerned, however, that the
to the amendments tabled by the Social Democratic Government’s chosen formulation for clause 26 has the
and Labour party. potential to upset the well-established hierarchy and
In conclusion, I am certain that not one single system of binding precedent that has characterised
amendment sponsored by the Scottish National party English common law and, to a greater or lesser degree,
will pass in relation to this Bill, just as not a single that of the other jurisdictions of the United Kingdom.
amendment sponsored by the Scottish National party The system of binding precedent is important because
passed in relation to the Scotland Bill back in 2015, we have always regarded it as a benchmark of English
despite the fact that we had 56 out of the 59 MPs in law that gives certainty, in that lower courts cannot
Scotland and now have 48 out of 59. depart from the decisions of higher courts. That has
It is worth remembering that the devolution settlement, served us well for centuries and is not something from
which this Bill will undermine, was predicated on the which we should lightly depart.
idea expressed in the claim of right for Scotland, which It is going to be important for the future, too. If we
asserts that it is the sovereign right of the Scottish are to advance Britain’s position as an international
people to determine the form of government best suited legal centre and an international financial and business
to their needs. Of course, on 4 July 2018 the previous centre—as I hope and am confident we will—certainty
Parliament unanimously endorsed that principle in the of law is important. I am a little concerned, however,
claim of right. The previous British Parliament accepted that, without more explanation, the Government might
that it is the sovereign right of the Scottish people to risk getting to a stage where—inadvertently, I have no
determine the form of government best suited to their needs. doubt, and perhaps for the sake of speed—they may
That means that this House has itself recognised, explicitly undermine that valuable asset. That would have perhaps
and unanimously, the principle of self-determination two consequences, which I will touch on.
415 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 416
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Judgments made over the years by the European If the issue is one of time, that should be reflected in the
Court of Justice have been embedded in domestic judgments urgency with which we address the negotiations and in
of our courts, including those of the Supreme Court. It the resources given, including to the courts, to deal
seems odd that power should be given to a lower court properly with such matters. I am not saying that I do
to, on the face of it, depart from a Supreme Court not want appropriate decisions in relation to EU law to
judgment interpreting the European law as it then was. be made, but I do not think we should imperil a much
On the face of it, and without more explanation, that broader system for the sake of expediency in relation to
seems to me to upset the doctrine of binding precedent a narrow point. I am sure the Minister knows that I
and risks driving a coach and horses through a fundamental approach the issue from a constructive point of view.
part of our system. That is not something we should I hope he will give us more detail and reflect on the
undertake lightly. Will the Minister explain the rationale matter.
behind it and precisely how the Government will go about
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): I am
it? Why is it necessary?
alive to my hon. Friend’s concerns—indeed, I share
them—but does not clause 26 provide protection by
1.15 pm
giving the Minister the power to make regulations that
People who will seek to litigate or enter into contracts will have to go through this House? That is a statutory
during the EU withdrawal period, or immediately after— intervention, albeit not an Act of Parliament. It is by
many commercial contracts will run over that period—will the will of this House that those intrusions would be
want to do so in the knowledge that they will have made.
certainty as to what the law is likely to be. If the law is
likely to be disapplied, that will be done either by an Act Sir Robert Neill: I say to my right hon. Friend: yes, up
of Parliament, which is fair enough, or by a judgment to a point, Lord Copper. Although it may be by the will
of the High Court or, if appropriate, the Supreme of the House, I urge the Committee to be cautious in
Court, working through the usual hierarchy of precedence. going down such a route, which profoundly changes the
It would be bizarre to allow an employment tribunal or centuries-old approach to English common law. Secondly
even a High Court judge sitting at first instance to, on —this is a point that I will make in a moment—there is
the face of it, have the power to disapply EU law in a an issue with the way in which we scrutinise regulations
way that might not be consistent with the ruling of the that the Committee may be asked to make. That relates
higher court in previous cases. I am sure that that is not to clause 18, to which I will return briefly. It is about
the intention, but the wording as it stands, without getting those two bits right.
more being said, seems to open up the risk that that I am conscious that elsewhere in the legislation, there
could happen. I hope the Minister will help us and is an obligation upon Ministers to consult the senior
explain how that will be avoided, because I am sure it judiciary when making some of those regulations. I
cannot be what the Government want. welcome that important safeguard—it must be a very
There is a second risk, though also unintended, I am full consideration. With every respect to my right hon.
sure. As well as being embodied in judgments, previous Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond
ECJ decisions in EU law have been embedded in policy Swayne), I do not think that we have a complete answer
decisions, which have been made sometimes in this as yet. In particular, we need an explanation about the
House by primary or secondary legislation, and sometimes departure from the position as it was in the European
through the executive actions of Ministers and other Union (Withdrawal) Bill. As the hon. and learned Member
executive bodies and agencies. If one is inviting a lower for Edinburgh South West alluded to, there is a concern
court to depart from EU law on those matters—and, that we run the risk of an increase in judicial review
perhaps, to overturn some of those decisions—we run were there a deficiency or uncertainty in the way in which
the risk, as the Law Society fairly points out, of, ironically, we deal with those matters.
dragging our courts into areas of potential political I hope the Minister will confirm that, as well as the
controversy. I cannot believe that the Government wish commitment to consult the judiciary, there will be very
to do that. Moreover, given that in recent months wide and early consultation under the provisions of
people in some circles have been critical of the UK’s clause 26. That should obviously include the senior
higher courts for their judicial activism—personally judiciary throughout the UK, but I hope it will also
speaking, I think that is unfair—it would be a little take on board the broader concerns of legal practitioners
ironic and odd if we were to encourage judicial activism to find the right formula. For example, it could include
by the lower courts. I cannot possibly think that that is experts like those who serve on the Law Society’s Brexit
what the Government want to do. Without an explanation law committee—that is fundamental to the workings of
or refinement of the wording of the clause—I do not our financial services—and who work for other such
expect the Minister to do that now, because he will have organisations. By pressing the Minister in this way,
time to do so—it seems to open up another risk. I hope I seek to make sure that we get that right.
he will explain the thinking behind it and how we might That brings me to my second and final point,
avoid that unintended and, I am sure we would all agree, which relates to clause 18 and the way in which we
undesirable consequence. consider delegated legislation. I note that the hon. and
The European Union withdrawal agreement dealt learned Member for Edinburgh South West hinted that
with that subject by saying that only the Supreme Court amendment 39 is a probing amendment, and I am glad
could depart from EU case law. That makes absolute of that. I have some sympathy with it, but I accept that
sense, in accordance with acceptance of our binding the Minister might want to reconsider, between now
hierarchy of courts and the precedent of judgments and the passage of the Bill through the other place, how
delivered by the courts. Can the Minister be more best to deal with the issue. On the face of it, it is
specific as to precisely why it is that the Government surprising to substitute an objective test with a subjective
have chosen to depart from that principle in this case? one when dealing with matters of such importance.
417 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 418
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): When dealing with I rise to speak to the official Oppositions’s amendments
issues of interpretation of European law in the context in this group. Amendment 1 relates to full transparency
of our own previous methods of judicial interpretation, on the implications of the Northern Ireland-Ireland
those of us who are familiar with Maxwell as compared protocol. Amendment 4 would restore the clauses from
to Craies know what the differences are. Does my hon. the previous version of the Bill that related to negotiating
Friend believe that we should be moving towards the arrangements for the protection of unaccompanied child
stare decisis system—in other words, a system based on refugees. New clause 1 would restore to the Bill the
precedent—rather than to purposive interpretation, which process of parliamentary scrutiny—it has been removed
is the basis on which European law currently operates? since the previous version of the Bill—over the process
Professor Richard Ekins of Oxford University and and outcome of negotiating the future relationship with
others are very conscious of that. He has written a very the EU after we leave. I am sure that you will tell me if I
interesting paper. stray from the topic of debate, Sir Roger.
Sir Robert Neill: It is indeed a very interesting paper. The Opposition have tabled amendment 1 because
Having been brought up as a common lawyer myself, the Government appear to be incapable of clarity about
my preference is inevitably to move towards a stare the implications of the Ireland-Northern Ireland protocol
decisis approach. I think that that is something that we on the people of Northern Ireland and Great Britain,
all wish to move back to as we reconstruct our statute their jobs, their businesses and their way of life. That is
book and legal texts thereafter. My hon. Friend and I too important to leave to chance. The people of Northern
will be entirely in accord on that. Ireland, and the people of the whole United Kingdom,
need and deserve the transparency and accountability
The question is really about the route that we choose
that the amendment proposes.
to get there and ensuring that we have proper scrutiny
of that route, because any deficiencies in regulations This part of the withdrawal agreement and the Bill
would likely result in a judicial review. That is another have to be considered in the light of the historical
irony: I am sure that the Government would not want context. The Good Friday/Belfast agreement was an
greater risk of judicial review of their actions than is extraordinary moment in the history of these islands
absolutely necessary. It would be a funny Government and an awe-inspiring achievement of the incoming Labour
who made work for lawyers in relation to judicial review. Government of 1997 and of the latter period of the
That might be interesting for some of us, but I am sure Major Government. Nobody my age could have thought
that it is not something that the Government wish to do. that we would see peace in Northern Ireland in our
However, without more explanation as to why we are lifetimes. The change to our way of life and the benefits
going down that route, that is the risk. to the people of Northern Ireland were unimaginable
First, I suggest to the Minister that he should seriously before the agreement. The Good Friday/Belfast agreement
consider whether we move to a “necessary” as opposed brought in a new era of peace and reconciliation.
to “appropriate” test—an objective test—which is much
more likely to withstand challenge in the courts, because The people of Northern Ireland, as well as its politicians
it is more likely to be readily evidenced and, I would across political and other divides, deserve our respect
have thought therefore, to the Government’s advantage. and admiration for how they have built the peace,
If the Government get their ducks in a row early when worked to build united communities and created a way
making regulations and have evidence to back the objective of life that seemed impossible a quarter of a century
test, they are much more likely to withstand legal challenge. ago. Surely, no politician of any affiliation would want
to destabilise that achievement—I am sure that that
Secondly, the Government would be much less likely includes the Minister, the hon. Member for Worcester
to face challenges and we would get better scrutiny if we (Mr Walker), who is nodding. I am sure he needs no
moved—certainly for the majority of policy considerations reminding—I will remind him anyway—that the
—to using the affirmative rather than the negative Government have a legal obligation to adhere to the
procedure. That would perhaps be a fair balance in the terms of the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. That means
House. We will not necessarily be able to do primary no opt-outs, no wiggling and nothing other than solid,
legislation for all of our withdrawal, because there is uncompromising adherence to and support for the spirit
too much of it. Sensible use of secondary legislation, to and the letter of the agreement, no matter how hard
remove references to the European Union or something that may be. Too many people have sacrificed too much
of that kind, can of course be done by the negative for peace for the Government to do otherwise.
procedure. When policy considerations are involved,
however, the use of the affirmative procedure would be These are no small matters, so it is troubling in the
consistent with the Government’s objective of bringing extreme that the Government do not seem to know
back control to the House, and with the movement their own mind or the implications of their own protocol.
towards our traditional UK approach to legal matters. I The consequences of a return to a hard border or
hope that the Minister will say something about that divisions between Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
when he responds. the fears emerging for people in Northern Ireland and
the problems for businesses across the UK are all serious
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): It is a matters—hence our amendment. Businesses in Northern
pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir Roger, and I look Ireland have spoken with one voice and are rightly
forward to serving under your guidance. It is also a concerned about the potential impact of border checks
pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bromley and on goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), who has given the Treasury So, too, are businesses across other parts of Great
Bench much to think about on the difference between Britain. Any business that currently sends goods to
subjective and objective tests, which I will bear in mind Northern Ireland should not have to expect border
in my remarks. checks within the UK.
419 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 420
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
1.30 pm Brokenshire), there is absolutely no guarantee and no
Businesses in Bristol West have already told me of certainty. It is the Government’s wish to diverge that is
their anxieties about checks between the UK and the causing this problem.
rest of the EU27, but at least those checks were anticipated
after the 2016 referendum. Those businesses should not Thangam Debbonaire: My hon. Friend is absolutely
have to expect border checks within the UK, between right. I, too, sat through yesterday’s debate, and that
Great Britain and Northern Ireland. seemed to be what was being said. The Brexit Secretary
Not only that but the Prime Minister has, at times, himself said that there will have to be some sort of
appeared at odds with his own Secretary of State on checks, which is inevitable. If we are to diverge from the
what the practical implications and, therefore, the trading current rules and Northern Ireland is to remain within
and economic implications will be for the movement them, there will have to be checks. It is no wonder that
of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. the people of Northern Ireland are concerned about the
Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom is potential impact on their place within this United Kingdom.
enshrined in the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. We Businesses in Bristol West have already told me of
must honour that agreement, and the Government should their anxieties, as I said, but they had a right not to
not be afraid to be open about how they are honouring expect there to be border checks within the UK. Northern
it. That is why we ask them to consider supporting Ireland’s place is enshrined in the Good Friday/Belfast
amendment 1. agreement, but this is not just about trade—that is why
I mentioned the agreement. This is about people. It is
James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): I about values. It is about hopes and fears for the future,
do not think any Conservative Member would, in any and it is about the feeling of belonging. It is about
way, demur from the need to uphold the Belfast/Good relationships between and within communities.
Friday agreement, which has provided the bedrock of There is a perception among some in Northern Ireland,
political stability, but does the hon. Lady acknowledge as hon. Members have mentioned, that a border nobody
that the withdrawal agreement itself specifically underlines voted for will be created within the United Kingdom
the point about unfettered access and, equally, that the down the Irish sea. A border in the Irish sea does not
protocol is intended to be replaced by the enduring bring people together, as the Good Friday/Belfast agreement
agreement that we wish to strike with the European does; it divides people and pulls them apart.
Union?
Amendment 1 seeks to give the Government a way of
Thangam Debbonaire: I thank the right hon. Gentleman renewing their commitment to the Good Friday/Belfast
for his intervention but, of course, it is far from clear agreement by showing that they still believe in the
that that will be the case. What we are actually seeing, Union—the full Union of the United Kingdom of
even from the Secretary of State, is that there will be Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The amendment
customs checks. There will have to be border checks would require them to report openly and transparently
because of the nature of the protocol. on the implications of the protocol for the movement of
I ask the Minister to provide clarity. If the right hon. goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and
Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) vice versa, for the Northern Ireland economy, for the
is correct, all well and good, but that is not the impression fiscal and regulatory compliance of goods travelling
we have been given. between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and for
barriers to trade for third-country goods entering Northern
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): The hon. Lady’s Ireland and Great Britain from the rest of the EU and
points are appropriate and balanced. The right hon. third countries.
Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), Amendment 1 would require the Secretary of State to
a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, suggests, publish a report and lay it before both Houses of
as has been suggested throughout this debate, that there Parliament and each devolved legislature, and to provide
is automatic secession from the Northern Ireland for debate and proper scrutiny in both Houses. The first
protocol—there is not. Article 13(8) is very clear that report should appear before 31 October. I can see no
the only way we secede from the Northern Ireland problem with that. If there is no problem, as the right
protocol is, first, if the European Union agrees and, hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup says, what is
secondly, if the confines of the protocol are no longer the problem with transparency? It would not take the
required. Those two things are not in our gift, so there is Government very long to do that reporting, and our
no certainty of our automatic secession, as the hon. constituents and the people of Northern Ireland have a
Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) was right to expect such transparency.
invited to believe. If the Government do not support amendment 1, I
Thangam Debbonaire: The hon. Gentleman is quite can only ask them to respond. Do they feel they owe it
right. It is because of that uncertainty that many people to the people of Northern Ireland to report sufficiently
in Northern Ireland have understandable fears about on the commitment they made earlier in this process to
the future. avoid a hard border? What is it about transparency and
accountability to the people of the whole United Kingdom
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): My hon. Friend is to which they object?
making an excellent point. We heard it again yesterday
that the Government’s intention is for Britain to diverge Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson: On transparency and reporting,
from the European Union. If that is the case, as we are it is important that Northern Ireland is represented on
being led to believe, it is inevitable that there will the proposed Joint Committee on the Northern Ireland
be border checks somewhere. With respect to the protocol so that we have a direct input into how the
right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James arrangements are enacted.
421 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 422
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Thangam Debbonaire: That sounds like an eminently Lord Dubs and others both inside and outside Parliament,
sensible idea. the existing provisions for the protection of children
The Opposition support the cross-party amendment, would then be the basis for negotiating an agreement.
new clause 55, and I will come on to the other clauses. We must consider the fact that the clock is ticking; we
The Labour party has consistently proposed a solution leave the EU at the end of this month and we will then
to the possibility of Brexit causing a border either on have only a few months more to agree the future
the island of Ireland or in the Irish sea, and our customs relationship. The regulations that currently provide the
union proposal would prevent both. There will be a legal basis for child refugees to be reunited with adult
chance to discuss that proposal later today, and the relatives will end if we do not put any other negotiated
Government will have a chance to consider it. In the agreement in place in that time.
meantime, I ask them to consider amendment 1. Surely, there can be no right hon. or hon. Member in
Clause 37 is an astonishing breach of faith with some this place who does not respect and admire the work of
of the most vulnerable children in the world. Our our colleague and friend Lord Dubs, who, with warmth
amendment 4, which we will push to a vote, seeks to and determination, eternal optimism and good faith,
restore that faith. My right hon. and learned Friend the has campaigned, and inspired others to campaign, for
Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) us to do more, not less, for vulnerable child refugees
and the noble Lord Dubs, our dear friend and colleague, travelling alone and trying to get to safety. Who among
have today written jointly to all Conservative Members us can fail to recognise his extraordinary example and
to urge them to support amendment 4 and thereby his achievements? I hope that I am wrong, but it would
scrap clause 37. seem that, unfortunately, the Government do not recognise
them. That is certainly Lord Dubs’s view and it is mine,
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): too, because in clause 37 they have reneged on that
The UK has already reneged on its commitment to the commitment. More importantly, they have reneged on a
480 child refugees who were due to come to the UK commitment to child refugees themselves, to secure
from France under the Dubs scheme. This withdrawal arrangements at the earliest opportunity on how to
agreement is a further regression of the UK’s moral protect children elsewhere in the EU who have an adult
duty to help vulnerable refugee children, so does my relative legally in the UK, either with status or in the
hon. Friend agree that amendment 4 would require the asylum process.
UK to show that it is serious about its humanitarian Family reunion is one of those things that should not
obligations? need explaining, but apparently it does: families belong
together. Families who are traumatised by war, persecution
Thangam Debbonaire: I absolutely agree with my and conflict are often forced to make decisions that
hon. Friend. This is about who we want to be as a none of us would ever want to have to make. Sometimes,
country—who I believe the British people already are—and in their journeys to safety, they are separated, and we
how we want to be seen. As Conservative Members will should be doing everything we can to help reunite them,
know, there is no mandate for this change. The change wherever they are, because that is part of who we are as
was not in their general election manifesto or in any a country. The British Red Cross and other refugee
statement of support for the withdrawal agreement of organisations have recommended that clause 37 be removed
which I am aware, although they are welcome to contradict and that the provision be restored, and the Government
me. It is deeply wrong for the Government to seek to could do just that. They have said that there is no
remove this provision on protecting vulnerable children change of policy and that it is just not appropriate for
just because they can. this provision to be in this Bill—the Minister is nodding.
I am sure that many Conservative Members are troubled Why should it not be in this Bill? It was in the October
by this, and I hope some are having words with their version. The provisions end this year and I have heard
Whips right now. I know their constituents will be no whisper of any negotiations so far with the EU
shocked by the breach of trust between the people of about this provision, although I am happy to be corrected
this country who, no matter who they voted for in if the Minister knows otherwise.
December, believe that protecting vulnerable children is In numerous reports, such as the House of Lords
part of who we are as a country. Brexit or no Brexit, European Union Committee report “Brexit: refugee
that is who we are. protection and asylum policy”and the House of Commons
I believe the Minister is an honourable man, and Foreign Affairs Committee report “Responding to irregular
perhaps he will seek to remedy this breach of faith by migration: A diplomatic route”, the importance of providing
not objecting to amendment 4, and thereby not put his safe and legal routes to protection has been noted. They
MPs in an awkward position. We shall see. point out, for example, that policies that focus
Clause 37 removes the commitment to negotiate an “exclusively on closing borders will drive migrants to take more
agreement with the EU27 on protecting child refugees. dangerous routes, and push them into the hands of criminal
If the Government will not back our amendment to groups.”
change that, I hope they will explain it. The hon. and They have warned:
learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna “In the absence of robust and accessible legal routes for
Cherry) has already outlined much of the case, and I seeking asylum in the UK, those with a claim are left with little
am grateful to her for supporting our amendment and choice but to make dangerous journeys by land and sea.”
for laying out the legal detail, as I am not as capable as The Government have rightly shown concern about
her of doing so. people setting out on those dangerous journeys, but
This commitment belongs within the Bill. The making it harder to come by legal routes is what prompts
Government have said otherwise, but we believe it belongs them. The Government recognise the need—I have
here because, as well as keeping faith with the noble heard them do this—to do more to prevent desperate
423 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 424
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
and vulnerable people setting out in leaky boats and relationship. Labour Members know, reluctantly or not—for
taking other dangerous routes, but this recognition is many of us, this will be a sad moment—that on 31 January
hollow words if it is not followed up with the action we will leave the EU. We accept that, but I am now
needed to increase safe and legal routes. The Minister talking about scrutiny of the future relationship. The
will know, as I have pressed on this on many occasions, shamefully misleading impression given by the Government
in different contexts and different debates, that refugee that electing them in December would mean that Brexit
resettlement and refugee family reunion saves lives and would be “done” by the end of January and that we could
prevents those dangerous journeys. move on to other matters is a terrible way to treat the
Clause 37 is worse than I have set out, as not only people of the United Kingdom, whoever they voted for.
does it fail to increase our response, but it goes backwards. I am sure the Prime Minister and his entire Front-Bench
It risks going backwards because we have no commitment team are fully aware that Brexit does not just get “done”
on what will happen and it is totally unnecessary. Let when we leave, as we are going to and as the Opposition
me set out some things the Government could choose to have acknowledged, on 31 January. I am certain that
do and commit to right now. They could commit that newly elected, as well as returning, Conservative Members
family reunion rights will be protected, with priority know perfectly well that all that will happen on 31 January
afforded to unaccompanied children. They could tell is that we will leave the European Union. They know
us they will replace the family reunion elements of that none of the agreement on the future relationship,
Dublin III by prioritising negotiation with the EU and or of the arrangements for sharing information about
with key member states so that there is an agreement criminals or trading, or for co-operating on research or
that allows individuals who have claimed asylum to be on moving life-saving medicines between the UK and
reunited with their family members. The Government the rest of the EU, will be “done”. That will all be still
could commit to allowing children to join extended to do. The Government have set a wildly unrealistic
family members in the UK who have the legal right to expectation, not only that Brexit will just get “done”,
be here because they are in a process or they already but that the many aspects of the future relationship will
have status. be “done” by the end of June this year, for the transition
We hope that the Government and their Back Benchers to be over by the end of December. In doing that, the
will recognise the rightness of this cause and the moral Government treat the economy, jobs, lives and welfare
justification for it. We hope that they understand that of the people of the UK recklessly.
the people of the United Kingdom will want them to do Clause 33 means that the implementation period
this. We hope they will also join us in paying tribute to comes to an end on 31 December, in all circumstances,
the many community organisations, volunteers, councillors as Ministers said yesterday. Even if we have not worked
and individuals who have shown our national values, out how people who currently work across borders in
and demonstrate them daily, by protecting, and offering the EU can continue to do so, Ministers are prohibited
to protect, still more vulnerable people. We hope the by law—they will be by the end of tomorrow—from
Government will acknowledge that and accept our asking for an extension period. If the agreements on
amendment. how we share information about terrorists and criminals,
Finally, I come to the issue of parliamentary scrutiny. or on other important aspects of data sharing, are only
An extraordinary turn of affairs has occurred between days away, we will still not be allowed to ask for an
versions 1 and 2 of this Bill: the Government have extension, even one that is just for days. Even if the
totally removed the process of parliamentary scrutiny arrangements for the movement of medicines are not
over the negotiations for the future relationship with complete, there will be no extension. [Interruption.]
the EU. Our new clause 1 therefore seeks to restore this This is related to this amendment, because we are
scrutiny. Do we want to leave the European Union just asking for scrutiny of the process. If the Government
for the Government to be able to ride roughshod over are going to insist on this transition period coming to
the views of the democratically elected Members of this an end no matter what, surely we should have a right to
House of Commons, on our side and on the other? Do scrutinise the process.
our constituents really want us to have less say, not
more, over the relationship with our nearest neighbours? Joanna Cherry: The hon. Lady is making a powerful
Did the people we represent really go to the polls on a speech. She should ignore the jeers and concentrate on
dark, cold, rainy and windy day in December to elect us, the forcefulness of the points she is making. Does she
on this side of the House and on that, so that we can agree that the situation she has just described, whereby
simply agree to hand over power to the Executive on favourable agreements just a few days away from being
this, the single most important issue of our times? Is negotiated would be given up in favour of this shibboleth
this really what “Get Brexit done” means? of a certain date, is the classic definition of cutting off
your nose to spite your face?
1.45 pm
Sir Desmond Swayne: Throughout the proceedings Thangam Debbonaire: I do agree with the hon. and
yesterday the Labour Back Benches were empty. For learned Lady on that. I say again that that shows why
half the time there was only one Member there—Labour’s we need this amendment, because it is about the scrutiny
only surviving Eurosceptic—but for most of the time of the process. If we are to accept this ridiculous idea
there was nobody there at all and we ended up finishing that there must be no extension to the transition period,
early, such was Labour’s determination to provide scrutiny. even if it is for just days, at least we should have the
right to scrutinise that process, on behalf of the people
Thangam Debbonaire: The right hon. Gentleman is we were sent here to represent. This is not about whether
well aware that the Labour party had leadership hustings there is good or bad faith on the part of the EU
last night and that the Front-Bench team were here member states. I am sure that they will, as we all hope,
and fully engaged. I am talking now about the future negotiate in good faith, but there are practical implications
425 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 426
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Thangam Debbonaire] mandate for the whole United Kingdom. It has been a
privilege to work with colleagues from every part of the
here about the sheer volume of work to be done to United Kingdom in preparing and delivering it.
reach agreements on all these vital aspects of our future I agree with the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam
relationship and secure the parliamentary approval of Debbonaire) about the importance of the Good Friday
27 other countries by the end of this year. Belfast agreement. It is absolutely right that it has been
I am saddened, but no longer shocked, that the a central focus of the exit process from the start. We do
Government rejected our sensible proposal yesterday, not need amendment 1 to state our firm commitment to
but I hope that today they will consider our sensible both the Good Friday agreement and the principle of
proposal on scrutiny. It is not too much to ask that we, consent, or, indeed, my party’s absolute commitment to
the elected representatives of the United Kingdom—of the United Kingdom.
all parties, including the Government party—have the I shall talk briefly to the purpose of clauses 18 to 37
right to hear from our Ministers on the aims and and schedules 3 and 5 before I go into the detail of the
objectives of the negotiations, the progress made and amendments. As a Northern Ireland Minister, I make
the outcome. It is not too much to ask that we be no excuses if most of my focus in respect of the amendments
guaranteed that right, with the opportunity to debate is on Northern Ireland. I am sorry not to have heard
and discuss, rather than having to wait for possible a from more Northern Ireland colleagues so far; I shall
ministerial statement or being forced to beg for information try to make time to ensure that I can.
via an urgent question. First, the clauses set out how EU law will be wound
Surely, Government Members can see the wisdom in down at the end of the implementation period. Secondly,
our proposal. They, too, were elected to represent their they enable the UK to fulfil its international obligations
constituents, not just to be lobby fodder for their Prime under the financial settlement. Thirdly, and crucially,
Minister. If they have a business in their constituency they implement the regulatory, customs and other
on which jobs depend, and the ability to trade relies on arrangements contained in the Northern Ireland protocol;
the continuation of an agreement between the UK and protect rights and arrangements contained in the Belfast
the EU, do they not want to be able to ask their Good Friday agreement; and avoid a hard border. Fourthly,
Government about whether that is included in the they update the European Union (Withdrawal) Act
negotiating objectives and to be able to find out how 2018 so that it operates as intended in the light of the
that is going? If they have a constituent whose life withdrawal agreement. Fifthly, they allow UK courts to
depends on the movement of a medical device from one interpret UK laws and not to be inadvertently bound by
EU country to the UK, do they not want to be able to historic European court cases. Sixthly, they provide a
find out whether that is part of the negotiations and mechanism for Parliament to consider EU legislation
how that is going? Surely, they will want to be able to that raises a matter of vital national interests, thereby
represent their constituents. increasing parliamentary scrutiny. Seventhly, they ensure
Members may not realise that the Law Society has that the Government are properly accountable for their
recommended reinstating the scrutiny role. They may work in the withdrawal agreement Joint Committee,
have forgotten that the Supreme Court judgment in the and that Parliament should be informed on formal
2017 Gina Miller case made it clear that the Government dispute proceedings that arise from the withdrawal
cannot make or withdraw from a treaty that amounts to agreement. Eighthly, they guarantee that we can ratify
a major change to UK constitutional arrangements the withdrawal agreement on 31 January by ensuring
without parliamentary oversight. Or maybe this does that once the Bill receives Royal Assent there are no
not count. I ask all Government Members to consider further parliamentary hurdles to ratification. Ninthly,
pushing their Government, and I ask the Minister—I they repeal unnecessary or spent enactments relating to
say again that I know him to be an honourable man—to EU exit.
consider restoring the full process of parliamentary I shall now address the amendments—
scrutiny. I ask them to commit today to doing that.
They could choose to adopt the Opposition amendment, Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab) rose—
or they could achieve it in some other way. I do not
mind; I just believe that, as elected representatives, we Mr Walker: I am happy to take interventions as I
should be able to represent the people who sent us here address the amendments; perhaps the right hon. Gentleman
on the most important change to our way of life, our will let me move on to that first.
jobs, our businesses and our security in our lifetimes. I agree with what the right hon. Member for Lagan
Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) said in an intervention
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern about the importance of every part of the UK being
Ireland (Mr Robin Walker): Before I address the provisions heard. I recognise that many of the amendments are
we are debating, I wish to acknowledge the enormous focused on securing Northern Ireland’s interests in the
hard work and professionalism of officials in the next phase of the Brexit process, and we absolutely
Department for Exiting the European Union, in which recognise the support they have received from across the
I had the privilege to serve for more than two years, and Northern Ireland business and political community. If
in the territorial offices in which I have served since, in and when the Executive are restored, the UK Government
bringing this Bill and the withdrawal agreement to the will be ready to consider commitments concerning the
position they are in today. I pay tribute to all those in Executive’s role in future discussions with the European
the devolved Administrations and the Northern Ireland Union and to engage with them as we safeguard Northern
civil service who have contributed to our work on EU Ireland’s integral place in the UK. The Government
exit and to ensuring that the whole UK is able to leave cannot accept any of the amendments to the clauses
the European Union in an orderly way. The Bill may that implement the protocol on Ireland and Northern
have been a long time in coming, but it is delivering on a Ireland, for a number of reasons.
427 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 428
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
First, let me address new clauses 14, 15, 39 and 40, all we maintain unfettered access between Northern Ireland
tabled by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley, as and the rest of the United Kingdom. There are powers
well as new clauses 63 and 13. At the outset, I should in the protocol for the Government to do that.
confirm that the protocol does not affect the constitutional Let me make a little progress. The Government are
status of Northern Ireland, which remains part of our committed to ensuring that the Belfast Good Friday
political and economic union. agreement is upheld throughout our departure from the
European Union. The protocol is clear that it protects
Stephen Timms: The Government’s impact assessment rights contained in that agreement, and the Bill gives
for the Bill states: effect to the UK’s commitments in that regard. We are
“Goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will confident that the new functions conferred on the Northern
be required to complete both import declarations and Entry Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Equality
Summary (ENS) Declarations”. Commission for Northern Ireland are sufficient for
Is that statement correct? them to carry out their roles in the dedicated mechanism.
It will be of particular interest to some Opposition
Mr Walker: It is clear that there are reporting Front Benchers who have raised concerns with us that
requirements in the functioning of the protocol, but, as the Bill confirms the Northern Ireland Human Rights
is clearly set out in article 6 of the protocol, we want to Commission’s “own motion” standing under the Human
ensure that we use the Joint Committee to reduce them Rights Act 1998, as well as providing for such standing
and make sure that we have the absolute minimum under the protocol. I direct Members’ attention to
burden. The protocol itself clearly gives the Government paragraph 5 of schedule 3. The Northern Ireland Human
the ability to provide unfettered access. I shall address Rights Commission and the Equality Commission for
that in more detail as I go on. Northern Ireland will form the bedrock of the dedicated
Northern Ireland remains in the UK customs territory mechanism established under article 2(1) of the protocol.
and can benefit from future trade deals that we strike All the powers necessary for these bodies to perform
with the rest of the world. The Prime Minister has their necessary functions are provided in schedule 3. I
repeatedly made it clear that the deal is good for businesses therefore urge the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen
and individuals in Northern Ireland. Farry) to withdraw amendments 32 and 34, which are
unnecessary, so that we can allow for the dedicated
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): Does the Minister mechanism.
agree that it would be enormously helpful if the
Government’s stance ensured that whatever regulatory 2 pm
regime is required, it is not only of the lightest touch but
is as cost-neutral as possible? Therefore, there needs to Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): I am happy
be detailed discussion with Treasury colleagues to see to withdraw my amendments in the light of the Minister’s
what mechanisms may exist for reclaiming, either through comments, but I ask him to respond further on the need
the VAT process or offsetting against personal or for both the Human Rights Commission and the Equality
corporation tax, in order to make it cost-neutral, with the Commission to receive the same notification as the
understanding that we need to be able to do something. Attorney General on human rights or equality issues
that come before the courts or tribunals.
Mr Walker: My hon. Friend raises an interesting and
important point. As he will appreciate, I cannot necessarily Mr Walker: I hear the hon. Gentleman’s point, which
make commitments on behalf of Treasury colleagues at I am happy to look into, but my understanding is that
this stage, but I have no doubt that he will assiduously under the Bill those bodies have the powers they need to
press for Northern Ireland’s interests with the Treasury. acquire the necessary information. I am grateful to him
for his gracious withdrawal.
Gavin Robinson rose— New clauses 11 and 12 were tabled by the right hon.
Member for Lagan Valley. I want to make it clear from
Mr Walker: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, the outset that the Government’s commitment to the
but I will need to make some progress so that he and his Northern Ireland Act 1998 and the Belfast agreement,
colleagues can speak. which it implements, is unfaltering. The consent mechanism
contained in the protocol, for which the Government
Gavin Robinson: The Minister is humble enough to will legislate before the first vote is required in 2024,
recognise that he cannot make commitments on behalf operates on the basis of a majority of democratically
of the Treasury, but he should go a step further and say elected representatives in Northern Ireland being able
that he cannot make commitments on behalf of the to continue or end alignment with EU law. I am certain
European Union, either. That is our fundamental problem that this is the right mechanism. The right position in
with the withdrawal agreement and its implications for principle is not to hand a veto to any one party—not to
Northern Ireland. There is no point asserting sovereignty Brussels, not to Dublin and not to any one party or
and indicating that Northern Ireland is fully in compliance community in Northern Ireland. That is what our consent
with the customs territory of United Kingdom, only to mechanism does. I therefore urge the right hon. Gentleman
hand that power to a Joint Committee with the European to withdraw his amendments and back this arrangement.
Union.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the Minister
Mr Walker: As he always does, the hon. Gentleman not recognise the incompatibility of the two statements
makes his point powerfully. It is clear from the protocol he has made? He wants to adhere to the letter and the
that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom spirit of the Belfast agreement, yet he is prepared to set
customs territory, and that we want to make sure that aside one of its most fundamental parts—that, on
429 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 430
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Sammy Wilson] Mr Walker: I hear the hon. Lady’s point and I have
great respect for the work she does in this space, but I
controversial issues and issues that one community feels think she misunderstands. Clause 24 simply means that,
threatens its identity and the things it values, there as a result of the protocol and the UK Government’s
should be a mechanism whereby there is a difference in role in the Joint Committee, there will not be decisions
the majority vote. He seems not to understand that the taken to change north-south co-operation. It does not
protocol and the terms of this Bill set that very vital prohibit or restrict in any way a restored Executive from
safeguard aside. taking decisions on that within the confines of the
North South Ministerial Council. I have to move on now,
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Roger Gale): but, in fairness, I think that that addresses the point.
Order. Before we proceed, let me provide this clarification. The Government urge the hon. Member for North
The Minister referred to withdrawing an amendment, Down and the hon. Member for Foyle to withdraw
as did the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen amendment 33 and new clause 61 as they risk creating
Farry). At this stage, there is no need to withdraw legal uncertainty for businesses and individuals in Northern
amendments, because none of them has been moved. It Ireland, which is unacceptable to the Government. Our
is only the lead amendment that has been moved. departure from the EU requires the Government to
Mr Walker: I apologise, Sir Roger. I stand corrected. ensure that the statute book is able to function post exit,
and these amendments put that at risk.
I absolutely recognise the principle in the agreement
I wish now to turn to the important amendments 12,
on contentious domestic matters in Northern Ireland. We
19, 50 and 51 and new clauses 44, 52, 55 and 60. As
are talking about a consent mechanism that is being given
Members can see from article 6 of the protocol, nothing
to the Assembly uniquely in the case of an international
in the withdrawal agreement prevents the Government
agreement, because we recognise the importance of the
from ensuring access for Northern Ireland goods to the
issue. We also recognise the benefits of cross-community
market in Great Britain. The Prime Minister has been
consent, which is why our approach would mean that a
absolutely clear that, beyond our obligations under
vote recurs more often if a decision is taken without
international law, there will be no new checks and
that cross-community consent.
processes on the movement of such goods. Our manifesto
It is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive commitment is absolutely clear: the Bill gives us the
and the Irish Government to develop consultation, power to deliver this. We recognise the strong voice with
co-operation and action within the island of Ireland— which Northern Ireland’s businesses have been speaking
including through implementation on an all-island and on the importance of unfettered access and of protecting
cross-border basis—on matters of mutual interest within Northern Ireland’s position within the internal market
the competence of the Administrations north and south as a whole and the cross-party, cross-community support
and not the responsibility of the UK Government. That for this to be delivered. It can be delivered through
is why clause 24 ensures that the UK cannot agree to the clause 21 and through the opportunity to follow up
making of a recommendation by the Joint Committee, through the Joint Committee, as we discussed earlier.
which would alter the arrangements for north-south We will, of course, continue to engage with businesses
co-operation. As the protocol ensures these aims and and stakeholders, but I none the less urge the right hon.
the Bill give effect to those commitments, I urge the Member for Lagan Valley and the hon. Member for Foyle
hon. Members for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), for to withdraw these amendments.
Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for North Down to withdraw
amendment 36 as it is not necessary to achieve the aims Dr Whitford rose—
that it seeks. Mr Walker: I will take an intervention from the hon.
Karin Smyth rose— Lady on one of her own amendments.
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I am
Mr Walker: I will take the hon. Lady’s intervention, listening very carefully to my hon. Friend’s comments.
and then I will have to limit interventions. Does he agree that, as expressed in the DUP’s amendments,
there is very widespread concern across Northern Ireland
Karin Smyth: I am grateful for the Minister’s comments
and among business groups about the proposal of the
on clause 24. I am a favoured, seasoned bureaucrat, and
protocol? He is trying to explain the details, but it is still
I do like a bit of transparency around governance and
going to be complex and it is still going to cause
process. I am struggling to understand how the relationship
unhappiness and concern. Does he agree that it would
works between the proposals from the Good Friday/
be best if, in the course of this year, the Government
Belfast agreement bodies, particularly the North South
committed to a comprehensive free trade agreement in
Ministerial Council, to this specialised committee, which
which Northern Ireland comes out absolutely on a level
has no enforcement power but has an ability to recommend
pegging status on every issue with the rest of the United
to the Joint Committee, which apparently has a supervisory
Kingdom? All the problems with the detail of the
power. We are not sure whether that body can then take
protocol would disappear, because Northern Ireland
action, or whether it just makes recommendations back
would be on a level pegging with the rest of the UK as
to the North South Ministerial Council. We are in an
part of a free trade agreement.
ever-moving circle of recommendations, but with no
action. The real concern with clause 24 is that it is in Mr Walker: My right hon. Friend speaks with
aspic in 2020. The ability to move on relationships considerable experience and passion on these issues. Of
seems to be lost, and the ability to do that with democratic course I agree with him, but what we want is a free trade
accountability back to the people across Ireland and the agreement for the whole of the UK that addresses these
United Kingdom is lost, and that is a serious governance issues and allows us the most frictionless access to our
point that the Government need to address. neighbours and good trade for all of us. For Northern
431 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 432
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Ireland, that would be an excellent result. We have to I remind the hon. and learned Lady that the use of
focus on the fact that this Bill is about the withdrawal “appropriate” in statute is not at all new. There are
agreement, and that includes the protocol. We need to myriad examples elsewhere on the statute book of powers
take through the protocol to ratify the withdrawal agreement that use the term “appropriate” to describe the discretion
and move forward into that negotiation. available to Ministers when legislating. I remember well
The Government are committed to maintaining the that we discussed the question of “appropriate” versus
highest levels of transparency and scrutiny in relation “necessary”many times during the passage of the European
to this Bill and to the implementation of the withdrawal Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, and Parliament accepted
agreement. We have been clear on that, but the exact the use of the word “appropriate”. There is no persuasive
form of accountability needs to be appropriately framed, reason why we should depart from that approach here.
so the Government cannot accept new clauses 53, 54 or
65, which would place an undue burden on the Government Joanna Cherry: In the Scottish Parliament’s legal
but not provide the transparency and scrutiny that they continuity Bill—which of course was struck down by
purport to achieve. It is no surprise that the Opposition, the Supreme Court after the Conservative party
through amendment 1, seek to place hurdles in the way retrospectively changed the law in the House of Lords—the
of our exit, but the result of the general election across power that Scottish Ministers afforded themselves for
the United Kingdom shows that they lack the mandate making delegated legislation used the word “necessary”
to do so and that we have a clear mandate to proceed. rather than “appropriate”, so it is not the case that all
We should do so without the hurdles that the previous Governments in these islands afford to themselves the
Parliament consistently threw in the way of progress. sort of sweeping powers that the Minister is planning
on affording himself. There are very legitimate concerns
Sir William Cash: I wish to ask my hon. Friend to about this issue that are shared not just by politicians
reflect on one point. Under this Bill, the European but by members of the judiciary. What does he have
Scrutiny Committee, both in the Commons and the to say in response to the points raised not just by me,
Lords, will have the power to examine certain matters. I but by the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst
know that he knows about that, but there is also the (Sir Robert Neill), who was the Chair of the Select
question of interpretation, which comes up in this set of Committee on Justice in the previous Parliament?
proposals. I wish to reinforce the exchange that I had
with my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Mr Walker: I obviously pay heed to those points
Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), which is that clause 5 has when they are raised, but I am told that the term
not been addressed, and that reaffirms the supremacy “appropriate” actually better allows us to take better
of EU law before exit day. We need to keep an eye on steps to ensure that multiple options can be explored
the question of the quashing and disapplication of Acts when the legal changes are complex and interact with
of Parliament as we proceed. numerous pieces of existing legislation; so there are
other elements to take into account.
Mr Walker: I absolutely take on board my hon.
Friend’s comments. As we are discussing parliamentary Sir Robert Neill: I have three points to make. First,
scrutiny, I am sure that he will welcome the clauses that perhaps the Minister could set out what those “better steps”
set out a role for the European Scrutiny Committee. are. Secondly, will he address the issue of consideration
under the affirmative resolution procedure as opposed
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the
to the negative resolution procedure, which might put
Minister give way?
some of my concerns to rest? Thirdly, before he finishes,
Mr Walker: I will come to the hon. Lady’s new clause will he tell us why we moved from the formulation of
shortly, so perhaps I can give way to her then. the Supreme Court in clause 26 to the lower courts?

Sir Robert Neill: Will the Minister give way? Mr Walker: I will absolutely come back to my hon.
Friend on the latter point. There are a number of places
Mr Walker: I will also come back to the issue raised in the Bill where it is very clear that there will be active
by my hon. Friend. consideration by the Commons of the secondary legislation.
As is standard in international agreements, the withdrawal That is an important part of the parliamentary scrutiny
agreement sets out procedures for dealing with disputes process.
concerning compliance with the agreement. Amendment 24 I turn to amendment 10 in the name of the hon.
would require parliamentary approval for the payment Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford). It would
of any fines or penalties under the withdrawal agreement. inhibit our ability to implement part 3 of the withdrawal
The withdrawal agreement is a binding agreement that agreement and the protocol, particularly with regard to
will place the UK under a legal obligation to make the ability to legislate for the consent mechanism and
those payments. We have to be clear that we will honour the provision of unfettered access. However, I reassure
our international legal obligations, and we therefore the Committee—this picks up from the point made by
cannot accept any conditionality on payments. my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst
I turn to amendments 38 and 46 in the name of the (Sir Robert Neill)—that any amendment to primary
hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West legislation through clauses 18 to 21 would have to be
(Joanna Cherry). It is essential that the powers in clauses 18 actively approved by votes of Parliament.
to 22 can be used to enable all appropriate measures
required by the withdrawal agreement to be implemented Dr Whitford: But this changes clause 8 in the original
by the end of 2020. Restricting the power in the manner European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which included
proposed would limit the Government’s ability to implement limitations meaning that these sweeping powers without
the withdrawal agreement in the most sensible way. a sunset clause could not be used in relation to the
433 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 434
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Dr Whitford] negotiations. This legislation is focused on allowing us
to move forward into those negotiations. It would be a
Human Rights Act, the Government of Wales Act, the profound mistake to tie the hands of the Government in
Scotland Act or the Northern Ireland Act. What changes achieving the best result for the whole United Kingdom.
exactly does the Minister feel he would need to make to
the Scotland Act to meet the relevant aspects of the Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth)
Northern Ireland protocol? Why is the legislation being (Lab): Given that we have flatlining life expectancy and
changed? The Minister should justify why those protections an increasing infant and child mortality rate—the worst
and limitations existed in the original Act but he now in western Europe, which is quite staggering—will the
feels bound to take them out. What is he planning to Minister explain why he is not prepared to introduce an
change in the other devolved settlements, for Scotland assessment of the impact on health of the trade deal,
and Wales? because there will be a significant impact? I really would
like an adequate response.
2.15 pm
Mr Walker: The hon. Lady is making a comparison Mr Walker: The hon. Lady talks about assessments
between two separate pieces of legislation. We have no of future deals. The place in which to do that is not
dastardly plans to change the devolution settlement. legislation that is focused on implementing the withdrawal
However, we want to ensure that we are able to take the agreement. I am afraid that it is simply not the case, as it
necessary steps to implement the protocol, including was in the last Parliament, that the political arithmetic
providing unfettered access across all parts of the UK, means that the Opposition can tie the Government up
in the limited period available. We will want to engage with all sorts of commitments and assessments. We
with the devolved Administrations and legislatures about need to ensure that we get the best deal for our economy,
the most effective way of achieving that. our health and our country, and it is right that we move
forward by accepting the withdrawal agreement, legislating
Dr Whitford: Will the Minister give way?
through the Bill and focusing on the next stage.
Mr Walker: I will not, I am afraid.
The Government cannot accept amendment 49, as it Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): As the Minister
would mean that we could be inadvertently bound by will be well aware, new clause 1 bears a marked resemblance
European Union rulings for many years. Instead, clause 26 to clause 31 in the previous version of the Bill. The
ensures that we and our courts will be able to determine Prime Minister said to the House on 22 October, talking
the extent to which courts are bound by historic Court about the now disappeared clause 31, that
of Justice of the European Union decisions after the “the intention is to allow the House to participate actively and
implementation period. This will be done sensibly, so I fully in the building of the future partnership”—[Official Report,
can provide some reassurance to my hon. Friend the 22 October 2019; Vol. 666, c. 840.]
Member for Bromley and Chislehurst. The Bill commits and the clause set out a whole process for doing that, so
us to consult the senior judiciary across the UK before why was it a good idea to have that in the version of the
making regulations, and we do not intend this in any Bill produced in October, but now it has apparently
way to upset long-standing constitutional principles become completely unnecessary and terribly onerous
such as the structure and hierarchy of the court system. for the Government?
This clause simply enables us to take back control of
our laws and disentangle ourselves from the EU’s legal Mr Walker: The answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s
order, but in a way that will be consulted on carefully question is perhaps in some of the exchanges we had
with the judiciary, recognising the structures and hierarchies during that debate, when I was reaching out to him to
that exist there. suggest that he ought to support our orderly withdrawal
New clauses 1, 6 and 17 and amendment (a) to new from the European Union so that we could get on to the
clause 6 all seek to introduce various statutory roles for next phase of negotiations. Since then, we have had a
Parliament, and for the devolved Administrations and general election that provides a clear mandate for this
legislatures, in the future relationship negotiations. These Government to take us forward, to deliver the withdrawal
are unnecessary requirements that risk impeding and agreement, and to get into that next phase of negotiations.
delaying negotiations. New clause 6 in particular imposes I think we need to focus on that.
onerous requirements for consultation and impact
assessments, but would make it very challenging indeed We have are already engaged extensively with the
to conclude negotiations by the end of 2020. devolved Administrations in our preparations for the
negotiations, and we will of course continue to involve
Caroline Lucas: Does the Minister recognise that all parties, including those in Northern Ireland, as we
what he refers to as “onerous requirements” are precisely begin those negotiations. Indeed, this speaks to the
what our colleagues in the European Parliament enjoy absolute necessity and the vital urgency of restoring a
right now? Does he not find that there is a rather ironic functioning Executive in Northern Ireland as soon as
point here, which is that we are supposed to be taking possible. The Government will support Parliament in
back control—although we assumed that meant to elected scrutinising the negotiations. We have made a clear
representatives, not just to No. 10—but we actually commitment in this Bill to Parliament’s scrutiny of the
have less control than the colleagues we have left behind withdrawal agreement Joint Committee. To that end,
in Brussels? clause 30 provides that when disputes arise, they must
be reported to Parliament. Further, clause 34 states that
Mr Walker: I fundamentally disagree. The purpose of only a Minister will be able to act as the UK’s co-chair
the Bill is to deliver on the withdrawal agreement and of the withdrawal agreement Joint Committee, and
take that forward. It is not to set out the future of clause 35 ensures that all decisions must be made by a
435 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 436
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Minister in person. That Minister will be accountable John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the Minister
to Parliament. We therefore believe that new clause 47 make sure, in the discussions with the devolved
should not be pressed. Governments, that the interests of England are also
The Government fully recognise the important role central to his considerations? We do not have a devolved
that devolved Administrations will play in ensuring that Administration, but we have a very strong wish to see
our independent trade policy delivers for the whole of Brexit through, because we think there are a lot of gains
the UK. It is the responsibility of the UK Government from Brexit.
to negotiate on behalf of the United Kingdom, and it is
vital that we retain appropriate flexibility to proceed Mr Walker: My right hon. Friend is of course right
with negotiations at pace. However, we have been clear that people across the whole of the United Kingdom,
that the devolved Administrations will remain closely including in England, voted for Brexit, but we should
involved. Therefore, there is no need to make provisions not forget the large numbers of people in Scotland, the
in statute when the Government are already working almost 1 million people in Northern Ireland and those
tirelessly to ensure that the views and perspectives of in Wales who also voted for Brexit.
devolved Administrations are given full consideration
in the United Kingdom’s trade policy. As such, I would David Linden rose—
urge hon. Members not to press new clause 64.
Mr Walker: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): There and that is the last intervention I can take, I am afraid.
is something deeply ironic about the fact that if we were
to remain in the European Union, trade negotiation David Linden: I am most grateful. Earlier, the Minister
objectives would have to be agreed with individual talked about respecting the devolved Administrations
nation states. Indeed, in Belgium, the devolved legislatures and listening to what they were saying, so can he tell me
for Wallonia, Flanders and the Brussels region would what the Government have actually done with regard to
have an individual say. Does the Minister not agree, the words in the 2016 document, “Scotland’s Place in
therefore, that in this situation, given the different nature Europe”?
of the economy of Wales, with its manufacturing, farming
and services to people, Wales’s devolved legislature, Mr Walker: I have answered that question many
alongside the devolved legislatures of Scotland and times. I am very happy to talk about many of the
Northern Ireland, should have a say in the objectives of aspects of the political declaration that reflect some of
the trade agreement negotiations as a very minimum? the concerns raised in “Scotland’s Place in Europe”, but
that is not a matter for this debate.
Mr Walker: We have always taken the interests of
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland very seriously in On the important question of child refugees, which
this process. We have always engaged. I have personally the hon. Member for Bristol West spoke about at length
been to the Welsh Assembly on a number of occasions and with commendable passion, this Government are
to give evidence. fully committed both to the principle of family reunion
The conduct of international relations is reserved to and to supporting the most vulnerable children. Our
the UK Government, so representation at the Joint policy has not changed. Although she said that she had
Committee, the specialised committees and the joint heard no whisper of negotiations, I can confirm that the
consultative working group is a matter for UK Ministers. Home Secretary wrote to the Commission on 22 October
However, I recognise the particular interests of the to start negotiations with the European Union on future
Northern Ireland parties given the role of these committees arrangements. We will also continue to reunite children
in the protocol, and this is a matter we would like to with their families under the Dublin regulation during
discuss further with the parties in a restored Executive. the implementation period. As my hon. Friend the
However, it would be wrong to pre-empt such discussions Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton)
in this legislation. As such, I would urge hon. Members made clear, there is very strong support on the Government
not to press new clauses 22, 26 and 42. Benches for the principle of family reunion.
New clause 66 would require the Government to
John Howell (Henley) (Con): Perhaps I can help the
report to the devolved Administrations—
Minister out. Is he aware that in 2017 the UK signed up
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Will the Minister to the Council of Europe’s action plan on protecting
give way? refugees and migrant children, which, among other
things, enhances the integration of children into host
Mr Walker: I am afraid I will not at the moment, but societies, and that that commitment remains, regardless
I will come back the hon. Gentleman if I can. of what happens to these amendments?

David Linden: On this point? Mr Walker: My hon. Friend makes a very important
point. Of course we have to take action on this across a
Mr Walker: No. number of areas, but the right place to do that is not in
New clause 66 would require the Government to this legislation. We do not need further reporting
report to the devolved Administrations on maintaining requirements such as would be required by amendment 4,
alignment with EU law, but devolution settlements already unilateral measures such as those set out in amendment 26,
lay out the terms under which devolved Administrations or legally binding negotiating objectives.
can make law, while the common frameworks provide a In new clause 21, my right hon. Friend the Member
forum for intergovernmental deliberation on the use of for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) shows his
these powers. This new clause is therefore unnecessary. admirable ambition for the UK’s independent trade
437 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 438
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Mr Robin Walker] right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government have
today announced at the Oxford farming conference that
policy enabled by leaving the European Union. We they are refusing to delay the phase-out of the basic
absolutely share those ambitions. I can assure my right payment scheme, which makes up 85% of the income of
hon. Friend, who was a privilege to work with, that the English livestock farmers, and that their doing so would
Government will be working in the national interest to massively undermine Britain’s farming economy and
kickstart the UK’s international trade policy in both our ability to provide food security and protect our
bilateral and multilateral fora. I know that he has historic landscape?
discussed this with the Secretary of State for Exiting the
European Union. However, he will know, perhaps better 2.30 pm
than almost anyone else in this Chamber, how important
it is that the Government do not have their hands tied Sammy Wilson: All these kinds of things ensure that
in negotiation, so I would ask him not to press his people want to see these issues nailed down in the Bill,
amendment. rather than hear the promises that are made.
Our amendments fall into three categories. I want to
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I deal mostly with the first group, on unfettered access to
thank my hon. Friend for that undertaking, but will he the UK market. The second group aim to ensure proper
give me one other undertaking, which is that the United representation for Northern Ireland on the Joint Committee
Kingdom will take its place in the World Trade Organisation and specialised committees, which will be very powerful
immediately we leave the European Union, which will and will be able to make decisions that have a dramatic
be, after all, on 1 February? impact on Northern Ireland. The third group aim to
ensure that the Northern Ireland Assembly is consulted
Mr Walker: I hesitate to give that from the Dispatch in accordance with the Belfast agreement.
Box because I am not a Trade Minister, but I am pretty The Minister has argued that the Bill guarantees
sure that if my right hon. Friend asked a Trade Minister unfettered access to the UK market—the protocol does
that question, the answer he would get is yes. not stop it, and the Bill facilitates it—and yet, when
The Government have been given a mandate following one reads clause 21, it is quite clear that none of these
the UK general election to get Brexit done. That is what issues has been hammered down. Ministers “may” make
this Bill aims to achieve. The withdrawal agreement and regulations to facilitate access to the GB market. If
the protocol deliver a good deal for the United Kingdom disagreements arise in the Joint Committee or if the
and leave the door open to improving their operation in terms of the protocol require there to be checks between
the Joint Committee to minimise disruption to businesses Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom,
and individuals right across the United Kingdom, including Ministers may well compromise and decide, “We’re not
in Northern Ireland. I urge hon. and right hon. Members going to make regulations. We have to balance the
to withdraw their amendments and progress this Bill so arguments up. We may make regulations, but according
that we can get on with delivering on our commitments to the Bill, it is not necessary for us to do so.”
to the whole country. This will kick-start a bright new The Bill simply refers to regulations
future for the people of all four nations of the United “facilitating the access to the market”.
Kingdom. That access to the market may require businesses in
Northern Ireland to undertake a huge number of checks,
Sammy Wilson: It is a great pity that the time is restricted with costly administration. The term “unfettered access”
in this debate because there are so many amendments is not in the Bill, and despite the promises that the
and so many people want to take part in it. Minister has made, no one yet knows what unfettered
The amendments that we have tabled are designed to access means. Our amendments are designed to ensure,
be positive—to ensure that the promises that the first, that the Bill states that Ministers must bring
Government have made are honoured, as is the manifesto forward regulations; secondly, that those regulations
commitment that they have made in relation to Northern must ensure unfettered access to the GB market, which
Ireland, which states: is the biggest market for the Northern Ireland economy;
“Guaranteeing the full economic benefits of Brexit: Northern and thirdly, that that unfettered access is defined in
Ireland will enjoy the full economic benefits of Brexit including the Bill.
new free trade agreements with the rest of the world. We will
ensure that Northern Ireland’s businesses and producers enjoy Gavin Robinson: My right hon. Friend is making a
unfettered access to the rest of the UK and that in the implementation powerful point about unfettered access to Great Britain
of our Brexit deal, we maintain and strengthen the integrity and for Northern Ireland, but of course a marketplace
smooth operation of our internal market.”
is somewhere where we buy and sell, and while he is
All our amendments are intended to ensure that that considering west to east transit, east to west—Great
promise is delivered on. I am sure the Minister will Britain to Northern Ireland—will be a much greater
understand, given the experience of the withdrawal concern, because that is where the EU will have the
agreement, that we wish to see some of these things greatest interest.
secured within the Bill rather than in the promises that
are made here. Sammy Wilson: That is why there must be guarantees
on the face of the Bill that Ministers will ensure that
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): A lot regulations are designed in a way that does not stop
of the DUP’s amendments are about trying to secure trade, whether from east to west or west to east. The Bill
the future of access to UK markets for Northern Ireland singularly fails to do that at the moment, and our
farmers. That is massively important to farmers in amendments are designed to ensure that it happens, for
Cumbria as well, vice versa across the Irish sea. Is the not only manufacturing but fishing.
439 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 440
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Jim Shannon: The Democratic Unionist party has Our first set of amendments would require the
tabled new clause 39 in relation to fishing. If one of my Government to define unfettered access on the face of
boats leaves Portavogie, goes out and catches a fish in the Bill and would oblige Ministers and devolved
the Irish sea and comes back into Portavogie, it owes Administrations to ensure that unfettered access. The
tariffs, with administrative and bureaucratic costs. But second set is about representation on the Joint Committee.
if it goes and lands its catch in Scotland or England, it It will be a powerful Committee, and therefore it is
does not have to pay any charges whatsoever. The important that there is Northern Ireland representation
Government promised a golden dawn for the fishing on it. The third set is on consultation with the Northern
sector when we left the EU. Quite clearly, boats in Ireland Assembly. I have already said to the Minister in
Northern Ireland—boats from Portavogie, Ardglass and an intervention—
Kilkeel—will not get that advantage. Is it not time that
the Government considered the future of the fishing sector 2.38 pm
in particular and ensured that it has the golden dawn Two hours having elapsed since the commencement of
that the rest of the United Kingdom seems to have? proceedings, the debate was interrupted (Programme
Order, 20 December 2019).
Sammy Wilson: My hon. Friend illustrates once again
The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed
the potential unforeseen consequences.
from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the
Our amendments have the support of all the political amendment be made.
parties in Northern Ireland, such is the degree of concern
Question negatived.
about the impact on the Northern Ireland economy. We
could support Labour’s amendment 1, but it does not The Chair then put forthwith the Questions necessary
go as far as we would like. We already know from the for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that
Government’s own assessment that there will be impacts time (Standing Order No. 83D).
on the Northern Ireland economy, and while amendment Clauses 18 to 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
1 asks for a picture at a particular time, new clause 55
asks for a moving picture over a period of time, with
independent assessments on a year-to-year basis of the Clause 21
impact of the Northern Ireland protocol on the Northern
Ireland economy. That is as important as the assessment MAIN POWER IN CONNECTION WITH IRELAND/
proposed in amendment 1. NORTHERN IRELAND PROTOCOL
Amendment proposed: 10, page 25, line 27, at end
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP): I thank the insert—
right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I regret that in the “(8) But regulations under this section may not—
two hours allocated to speak about the Northern Ireland (a) impose or increase taxation or fees,
protocol, he is the only representative of Northern (b) make retrospective provision,
Ireland who will be allowed to speak on the substantive (c) create a relevant criminal offence,
amendments we have tabled on north-south co-operation, (d) establish a public authority,
the environmental impact and democratic oversight. (e) amend, repeal or revoke the Human Rights Act 1998
That will contribute to the very real feeling that Brexit, or any subordinate legislation made under it, or
and this form of Brexit, is being forced on Northern (f) amend or repeal the Scotland Act 1998, the Government
Ireland, which has never given its consent. of Wales Act 2006 or the Northern Ireland Act 1998.”—
People will appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman (Dr Whitford.)
and I come from very different perspectives, but all the This amendment would apply the usual restrictions on Ministers’
Northern Irish parties and all the business community delegated power to make regulations under the Government’s
have worked together on our common interests, because proposed new section 8C of the European Union (Withdrawal)
they are so vital to protect businesses and consumers, Act 2018.
who cannot absorb the costs of this Brexit. Does he Question put, That the amendment be made.
agree that if the Government mean anything they say The Committee divided: Ayes 262, Noes 340.
about protecting Northern Ireland and the assurances
they have given on unfettered access and non-tariff Division No. 6] [2.38 pm
barriers, they should at a minimum accept new clause 55?
AYES
Sammy Wilson: Yes. New clause 55 is very reasonable. Abbott, rh Ms Diane Blackman, Kirsty
It asks, first, for a 12-monthly assessment of the impact Abrahams, Debbie Blake, Olivia
of the protocol on Northern Ireland; secondly, that if Ali, Rushanara Blomfield, Paul
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Bonnar, Steven
there is divergence in trade policy, the administrative
Amesbury, Mike Brabin, Tracy
costs of the impact should not be borne by the private
Anderson, Fleur Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
sector in Northern Ireland; and thirdly, that it is done Antoniazzi, Tonia Brennan, Kevin
independently, to ensure that the true costs are not Ashworth, Jonathan Brock, Deidre
glossed over. It is a very reasonable new clause, adding Bardell, Hannah Brown, Alan
to Labour’s amendment 1, and I hope that the Government Barker, Paula Brown, Ms Lyn
will accept it. They want to give an assurance that they Beckett, rh Margaret Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
do not want there to be a detrimental impact on Northern Begum, Apsana Bryant, Chris
Ireland. The only way we will know whether the terms Benn, rh Hilary Buck, Ms Karen
of the protocol are having an impact on Northern Betts, Mr Clive Burgon, Richard
Ireland is to make a regular assessment of the protocol, Black, Mhairi Butler, Dawn
the regulations enforced as a result of it and the costs. Blackford, rh Ian Byrne, Ian
441 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 442
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Byrne, rh Liam Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica Smith, Alyn
Cadbury, Ruth Greenwood, Margaret Morgan, Mr Stephen Smith, Cat
Callaghan, Amy Griffith, Nia Morris, Grahame Smith, Jeff
Cameron, Dr Lisa Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Smith, Nick
Campbell, rh Sir Alan Haigh, Louise Murray, James Smyth, Karin
Campbell, Mr Gregory Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Sobel, Alex
Carden, Dan Hanna, Claire Newlands, Gavin Spellar, rh John
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hanvey, Neale Nichols, Charlotte Starmer, rh Keir
Chamberlain, Wendy Hardy, Emma Nicolson, John Stephens, Chris
Champion, Sarah Harman, rh Ms Harriet Norris, Alex Stevens, Jo
Chapman, Douglas Harris, Carolyn O’Hara, Brendan Stone, Jamie
Charalambous, Bambos Hayes, Helen Olney, Sarah Streeting, Wes
Cherry, Joanna Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Stringer, Graham
Clark, Feryal Hendrick, Sir Mark Oppong-Asare, Abena Sultana, Zarah
Cooper, Daisy Hendry, Drew Osamor, Kate Tami, rh Mark
Cooper, Rosie Hill, Mike Oswald, Kirsten Tarry, Sam
Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg Owatemi, Taiwo Thewliss, Alison
Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hobhouse, Wera Owen, Sarah Thomas, Gareth
Cowan, Ronnie Hollern, Kate Paisley, Ian Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Coyle, Neil Hopkins, Rachel Peacock, Stephanie
Thomson, Richard
Crawley, Angela Hosie, Stewart Pennycook, Matthew
Thornberry, rh Emily
Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Huq, Dr Rupa Perkins, Mr Toby
Timms, rh Stephen
cast by Peter Kyle) Hussain, Imran Phillips, Jess
Cruddas, Jon Trickett, Jon
Jardine, Christine Phillipson, Bridget
Cryer, John Johnson, Dame Diana Pollard, Luke Twigg, Derek
Cummins, Judith Johnson, Kim Powell, Lucy Twist, Liz
Cunningham, Alex Jones, Darren Qureshi, Yasmin Vaz, rh Valerie
Daby, Janet Jones, Gerald Rayner, Angela Webbe, Claudia
Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reed, Mr Steve West, Catherine
David, Wayne Jones, Ruth Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Western, Matt
Davies, Geraint Jones, Sarah by Bambos Charalambous) Whitehead, Dr Alan
Davies-Jones, Alex Kane, Mike Reeves, Rachel Whitford, Dr Philippa
Day, Martyn Keeley, Barbara Reynolds, Jonathan Whitley, Mick
De Cordova, Marsha Kendall, Liz Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Whittome, Nadia
Debbonaire, Thangam Khan, Afzal Rimmer, Ms Marie Williams, Hywel
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kinnock, Stephen Robinson, Gavin Wilson, Munira
Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kyle, Peter Rodda, Matt Wilson, rh Sammy
Dodds, Anneliese Lake, Ben Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Winter, Beth
Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lavery, Ian Saville Roberts, rh Liz Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Doogan, Dave Law, Chris Shah, Naz
Wishart, Pete
Dorans, Allan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Shannon, Jim
Yasin, Mohammad
Doughty, Stephen Lewis, Clive Sharma, Mr Virendra
Zeichner, Daniel
Dowd, Peter Linden, David Sheerman, Mr Barry
Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony Sheppard, Tommy Tellers for the Ayes:
Duffield, Rosie Lockhart, Carla Siddiq, Tulip Owen Thompson and
Eagle, Ms Angela Long Bailey, Rebecca Slaughter, Andy Marion Fellows
Eagle, Maria Lucas, Caroline
Eastwood, Colum Lynch, Holly
NOES
Edwards, Jonathan MacAskill, Kenny
Efford, Clive MacNeil, Angus Brendan Adams, Nigel Baron, Mr John
Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Afolami, Bim Bell, Aaron
Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Afriyie, Adam Benton, Scott
Eshalomi, Florence Malhotra, Seema Ahmad Khan, Imran Beresford, Sir Paul
Esterson, Bill Maskell, Rachael Aiken, Nickie Berry, rh Jake
Evans, Chris Matheson, Christian Aldous, Peter Bhatti, Saqib
Farron, Tim McCabe, Steve Allan, Lucy Blackman, Bob
Farry, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Amess, Sir David Blunt, Crispin
Ferrier, Margaret McDonald, Andy Anderson, Lee Bone, Mr Peter
Fletcher, Colleen McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Anderson, Stuart Bottomley, Sir Peter
Flynn, Stephen McDonald, Stuart C. Andrew, Stuart Bowie, Andrew
Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, rh John Ansell, Caroline Bradley, Ben
Foxcroft, Vicky McFadden, rh Mr Pat Argar, Edward Bradley, rh Karen
Foy, Mary Kelly McGinn, Conor Atherton, Sarah Brady, Sir Graham
Furniss, Gill McKinnell, Catherine Atkins, Victoria Brereton, Jack
Gibson, Patricia McLaughlin, Anne Bacon, Mr Gareth Bridgen, Andrew
Gill, Preet Kaur McMahon, Jim Bacon, Mr Richard Brine, Steve
Girvan, Paul McMorrin, Anna Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Bristow, Paul
Glindon, Mary Mearns, Ian cast by Leo Docherty) Britcliffe, Sara
Grady, Patrick Miliband, rh Edward Bailey, Shaun Brokenshire, rh James
Grant, Peter Mishra, Navendu Baillie, Siobhan Browne, Anthony
Gray, Neil Monaghan, Carol Baker, Duncan Bruce, Fiona
Green, Kate Moran, Layla Baldwin, Harriett Buchan, Felicity
443 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 444
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Buckland, rh Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamont, John Poulter, Dr Dan
Burghart, Alex Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert Prentis, Victoria
Burns, rh Conor Freeman, George Latham, Mrs Pauline Pritchard, Mark
Butler, Rob Freer, Mike Leadsom, rh Andrea Pursglove, Tom
Cairns, rh Alun Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quin, Jeremy
Carter, Andy Fysh, Mr Marcus Levy, Ian Quince, Will
Cartlidge, James Garnier, Mark Lewer, Andrew Randall, Tom
Cash, Sir William Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewis, rh Brandon Redwood, rh John
Cates, Miriam Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richards, Nicola
Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Loder, Chris Richardson, Angela
Chope, Sir Christopher Glen, John Logan, Mark Roberts, Rob
Churchill, Jo Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Longhi, Marco Robertson, Mr Laurence
Clark, rh Greg Gove, rh Michael Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Robinson, Mary
Clarke, Mr Simon Graham, Richard by Lee Rowley) Rosindell, Andrew
Clarke, Theo Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack Ross, Douglas
Clarke-Smith, Brendan Gray, James Lord, Mr Jonathan Rowley, Lee
Clarkson, Chris Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Russell, Dean
Cleverly, rh James Green, rh Damian Mackinlay, Craig Rutley, David
Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Griffith, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn Sambrook, Gary
Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffiths, Kate Maclean, Rachel Saxby, Selaine
Colburn, Elliot Grundy, James Mak, Alan Scully, Paul
Collins, Damian Gullis, Jonathan Malthouse, Kit Seely, Bob
Costa, Alberto Halfon, rh Robert Mangnall, Anthony Selous, Andrew
Courts, Robert Hall, Luke Mann, Scott Shapps, rh Grant
Coutinho, Claire Hammond, Stephen Marson, Julie Sharma, rh Alok
Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hancock, rh Matt May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Crabb, rh Stephen Hands, rh Greg Mayhew, Jerome Simmonds, David
Crosbie, Virginia Harper, rh Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Skidmore, rh Chris
Crouch, Tracey Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe
Daly, James Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Karl Smith, Greg
Davies, David T. C. Hart, rh Simon McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry
Davies, Gareth Hayes, rh Sir John McVey, rh Esther Solloway, Amanda
Davies, Dr James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Menzies, Mark Spencer, Dr Ben
Davies, Mims Heappey, James Mercer, Johnny Spencer, rh Mark
Davies, Philip Henderson, Gordon Merriman, Huw Stevenson, Jane
Davis, rh Mr David Henry, Darren Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John
Davison, Dehenna Higginbotham, Antony Millar, Robin Stewart, Iain
Dinenage, Caroline Hinds, rh Damian Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stride, rh Mel
Dines, Miss Sarah Hoare, Simon Milling, Amanda Sturdy, Julian
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holden, Mr Richard Mills, Nigel Sunak, rh Rishi
Docherty, Leo Hollinrake, Kevin Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sunderland, James
Donelan, Michelle Hollobone, Mr Philip Mohindra, Gagan Swayne, rh Sir Desmond
Dorries, Ms Nadine Holloway, Adam Moore, Damien Syms, Sir Robert
Double, Steve Holmes, Paul Moore, Robbie Thomas, Derek
Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, John Mordaunt, rh Penny Throup, Maggie
Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, Paul Morris, Anne Marie Timpson, Edward
Drax, Richard Huddleston, Nigel Morris, David Tolhurst, Kelly
Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, James Tomlinson, Justin
Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Morrissey, Joy Tomlinson, Michael
Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy Tracey, Craig
Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Mullan, Dr Kieran Trott, Laura
Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom Mumby-Croft, Holly Truss, rh Elizabeth
Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Mundell, rh David Tugendhat, Tom
Edwards, Ruth Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murray, Mrs Sheryll Vara, Mr Shailesh
Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Vickers, Martin
Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Neill, Sir Robert Vickers, Matt
Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert Nici, Lia Wakeford, Christian
Eustice, George Johnson, Dr Caroline Nokes, rh Caroline Walker, Sir Charles
Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse Walker, Mr Robin
Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, Andrew O’Brien, Neil Wallace, rh Mr Ben
Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, rh Mr David Offord, Dr Matthew Wallis, Dr Jamie
Everitt, Ben Jones, Fay Opperman, Guy Warburton, David
Fabricant, Michael Jupp, Simon Parish, Neil Warman, Matt
Farris, Laura Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, rh Priti Watling, Giles
Fell, Simon Kearns, Alicia Paterson, rh Mr Owen Webb, Suzanne
Fletcher, Katherine Keegan, Gillian Pawsey, Mark Whately, Helen
Fletcher, Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Penning, rh Sir Mike Wheeler, Mrs Heather
Fletcher, Nick Knight, Julian Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig
Ford, Vicky Kruger, Danny Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Foster, Kevin Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Philp, Chris Wiggin, Bill
Fox, rh Dr Liam Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Pincher, rh Christopher Wild, James
445 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 446
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Williams, Craig Young, Jacob Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel
Williamson, rh Gavin Zahawi, Nadhim Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart
Wood, Mike Coyle, Neil Huq, Dr Rupa
Tellers for the Noes:
Wragg, Mr William Maria Caulfield and Crawley, Angela Hussain, Imran
Wright, rh Jeremy Mr Marcus Jones Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Jardine, Christine
cast by Peter Kyle) Johnson, Dame Diana
Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Kim
Question accordingly negatived. Cryer, John Jones, Darren
Clauses 21 to 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Cummins, Judith Jones, Gerald
Cunningham, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan
Schedule 3 agreed to. Daby, Janet Jones, Ruth
Clauses 24 to 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, Sarah
David, Wayne Kane, Mike
Davies-Jones, Alex Keeley, Barbara
Clause 37 Day, Martyn Kendall, Liz
De Cordova, Marsha Khan, Afzal
ARRANGEMENTS WITH EU ABOUT UNACCOMPANIED Debbonaire, Thangam Kinnock, Stephen
CHILDREN SEEKING ASYLUM Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kyle, Peter
Amendment proposed: 4, page 37, line 3, leave out Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lake, Ben
from “Europe)” to the end of the clause and insert Dodds, Anneliese Lavery, Ian
“after subsection (3) insert— Doogan, Dave Law, Chris
Dorans, Allan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
‘(3A) If, three months after this Act comes into force, no Doughty, Stephen Lewis, Clive
agreement achieving the objective contained in subsection (1) has
Dowd, Peter Linden, David
been concluded with the European Union, a Minister of the
Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony
Crown must make a statement to the House of Commons setting
Duffield, Rosie Long Bailey, Rebecca
out—
Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Caroline
(a) the steps taken by Her Majesty’s government, and the
Eagle, Maria Lynch, Holly
progress made in negotiations with the European
Eastwood, Colum MacAskill, Kenny
Union, for the purpose of achieving the objective in
Edwards, Jonathan MacNeil, Angus Brendan
subsection (1); and
Efford, Clive Mahmood, Mr Khalid
(b) whether in the Minister’s opinion an agreement with
Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Shabana
the European Union achieving the objective of
Elmore, Chris Malhotra, Seema
subsection (1) is likely to be achieved by IP completion
Eshalomi, Florence Maskell, Rachael
day and, if not, setting out the reasons for this.
Esterson, Bill Matheson, Christian
(3B) Following the making of the first Statement referred to in Evans, Chris McCabe, Steve
subsection (2), and until such time as an agreement satisfying the Farron, Tim McCarthy, Kerry
objective contained in subsection (1) is reached with the
Farry, Stephen McDonald, Andy
European Union, the Minister shall, at least as frequently as
Fellows, Marion McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
every 28 days thereafter, make further statements in accordance
Ferrier, Margaret McDonald, Stuart C.
with sections (3A)(a) and (b).” —(Thangam Debbonaire.)
Fletcher, Colleen McDonnell, rh John
This amendment would protect the right for unaccompanied child Flynn, Stephen McFadden, rh Mr Pat
refugees to be reunited with their family after Brexit. Fovargue, Yvonne McGinn, Conor
The Committee divided: Ayes 252, Noes 348. Foxcroft, Vicky McKinnell, Catherine
Foy, Mary Kelly McLaughlin, Anne
Division No. 7] [2.56 pm Furniss, Gill McMahon, Jim
Gibson, Patricia McMorrin, Anna
AYES Gill, Preet Kaur Mearns, Ian
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Brown, Alan Glindon, Mary Miliband, rh Edward
Abrahams, Debbie Brown, Ms Lyn Grady, Patrick Mishra, Navendu
Ali, Rushanara Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Grant, Peter Monaghan, Carol
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Bryant, Chris Gray, Neil Moran, Layla
Amesbury, Mike Buck, Ms Karen Green, Kate Morden, Jessica
Anderson, Fleur Burgon, Richard Greenwood, Lilian Morgan, Mr Stephen
Antoniazzi, Tonia Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Margaret Morris, Grahame
Ashworth, Jonathan Byrne, Ian Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian
Bardell, Hannah Byrne, rh Liam Gwynne, Andrew Murray, James
Barker, Paula Cadbury, Ruth Haigh, Louise Nandy, Lisa
Beckett, rh Margaret Callaghan, Amy Hamilton, Fabian Newlands, Gavin
Begum, Apsana Cameron, Dr Lisa Hanna, Claire Nichols, Charlotte
Benn, rh Hilary Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanvey, Neale Nicolson, John
Betts, Mr Clive Carden, Dan Hardy, Emma Norris, Alex
Black, Mhairi Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harman, rh Ms Harriet O’Hara, Brendan
Blackford, rh Ian Chamberlain, Wendy Harris, Carolyn Olney, Sarah
Blackman, Kirsty Champion, Sarah Hayes, Helen Onwurah, Chi
Blake, Olivia Chapman, Douglas Healey, rh John Oppong-Asare, Abena
Blomfield, Paul Charalambous, Bambos Hendrick, Sir Mark Osamor, Kate
Bonnar, Steven Cherry, Joanna Hendry, Drew Oswald, Kirsten
Brabin, Tracy Clark, Feryal Hill, Mike Owatemi, Taiwo
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cooper, Daisy Hillier, Meg Owen, Sarah
Brennan, Kevin Cooper, Rosie Hobhouse, Wera Peacock, Stephanie
Brock, Deidre Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate Pennycook, Matthew
447 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 448
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Perkins, Mr Toby Stone, Jamie Crabb, rh Stephen Hammond, Stephen
Phillips, Jess Streeting, Wes Crosbie, Virginia Hancock, rh Matt
Phillipson, Bridget Stringer, Graham Crouch, Tracey Hands, rh Greg
Pollard, Luke Sultana, Zarah Daly, James Harper, rh Mr Mark
Powell, Lucy Tami, rh Mark Davies, David T. C. Harris, Rebecca
Qureshi, Yasmin Tarry, Sam Davies, Gareth Hart, Sally-Ann
Rayner, Angela Thewliss, Alison Davies, Dr James Hart, rh Simon
Reed, Mr Steve Thomas, Gareth Davies, Mims Hayes, rh Sir John
Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Thomas-Symonds, Nick Davies, Philip Heald, rh Sir Oliver
by Bambos Charalambous) Thompson, Owen Davis, rh Mr David Heappey, James
Reeves, Rachel Thomson, Richard Davison, Dehenna Henderson, Gordon
Reynolds, Jonathan Thornberry, rh Emily Dinenage, Caroline Henry, Darren
Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Timms, rh Stephen Dines, Miss Sarah Higginbotham, Antony
Rimmer, Ms Marie Trickett, Jon Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, rh Damian
Rodda, Matt Twigg, Derek Docherty, Leo Hoare, Simon
Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Vaz, rh Valerie Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Holden, Mr Richard
Saville Roberts, rh Liz Webbe, Claudia Donelan, Michelle Hollinrake, Kevin
Shah, Naz West, Catherine Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollobone, Mr Philip
Sharma, Mr Virendra Western, Matt Double, Steve Holloway, Adam
Sheerman, Mr Barry Whitehead, Dr Alan Dowden, rh Oliver Holmes, Paul
Sheppard, Tommy Whitford, Dr Philippa Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John
Siddiq, Tulip Whitley, Mick Drax, Richard Howell, Paul
Slaughter, Andy Whittome, Nadia Drummond, Mrs Flick Huddleston, Nigel
Smith, Alyn Williams, Hywel Duddridge, James Hudson, Dr Neil
Smith, Cat Wilson, Munira Duguid, David Hughes, Eddie
Smith, Nick Winter, Beth Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Jane
Smyth, Karin Winterton, rh Dame Rosie Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, rh Jeremy
Sobel, Alex Wishart, Pete Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Tom
Spellar, rh John Zeichner, Daniel Edwards, Ruth Jack, rh Mr Alister
Starmer, rh Keir Ellis, rh Michael Jenkin, Sir Bernard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Stephens, Chris Jeff Smith and Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkinson, Mark
Stevens, Jo Liz Twist Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea
Eustice, George Jenrick, rh Robert
Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Dr Caroline
NOES Evans, Mr Nigel Johnson, Gareth
Adams, Nigel Brereton, Jack Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew
Afolami, Bim Bridgen, Andrew Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David
Afriyie, Adam Brine, Steve Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay
Ahmad Khan, Imran Bristow, Paul Farris, Laura Jupp, Simon
Aiken, Nickie Britcliffe, Sara Fell, Simon Kawczynski, Daniel
Aldous, Peter Brokenshire, rh James Fletcher, Katherine Kearns, Alicia
Allan, Lucy Browne, Anthony Fletcher, Mark Keegan, Gillian
Amess, Sir David Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Nick Knight, rh Sir Greg
Anderson, Lee Buchan, Felicity Ford, Vicky Knight, Julian
Anderson, Stuart Buckland, rh Robert Foster, Kevin Kruger, Danny
Andrew, Stuart Burghart, Alex Fox, rh Dr Liam Kwarteng, rh Kwasi
Ansell, Caroline Burns, rh Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Laing, rh Dame Eleanor
Argar, Edward Butler, Rob Frazer, Lucy Lamont, John
Atherton, Sarah Cairns, rh Alun Freeman, George Largan, Robert
Atkins, Victoria Campbell, Mr Gregory Freer, Mike Latham, Mrs Pauline
Bacon, Mr Gareth Carter, Andy Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward
Bacon, Mr Richard Cartlidge, James Fysh, Mr Marcus Levy, Ian
Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Cash, Sir William Garnier, Mark Lewer, Andrew
cast by Leo Docherty) Cates, Miriam Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewis, rh Brandon
Bailey, Shaun Chalk, Alex Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Baillie, Siobhan Chishti, Rehman Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Baker, Duncan Chope, Sir Christopher Gideon, Jo Lockhart, Carla
Baldwin, Harriett Churchill, Jo Girvan, Paul Loder, Chris
Baron, Mr John Clark, rh Greg Glen, John Logan, Mark
Bell, Aaron Clarke, Mr Simon Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Longhi, Marco
Benton, Scott Clarke, Theo Gove, rh Michael Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast
Beresford, Sir Paul Clarke-Smith, Brendan Graham, Richard by Lee Rowley)
Berry, rh Jake Clarkson, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack
Bhatti, Saqib Cleverly, rh James Gray, James Lord, Mr Jonathan
Blackman, Bob Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim
Blunt, Crispin Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, rh Damian Mackinlay, Craig
Bone, Mr Peter Colburn, Elliot Griffith, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn
Bottomley, Sir Peter Collins, Damian Griffiths, Kate Maclean, Rachel
Bowie, Andrew Costa, Alberto Grundy, James Mak, Alan
Bradley, Ben Courts, Robert Gullis, Jonathan Malthouse, Kit
Bradley, rh Karen Coutinho, Claire Halfon, rh Robert Mangnall, Anthony
Brady, Sir Graham Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hall, Luke Mann, Scott
449 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 450
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Marson, Julie Rutley, David New Clause 6
May, rh Mrs Theresa Sambrook, Gary
Mayhew, Jerome Saxby, Selaine PARLIAMENTARY APPROVAL OF THE FUTURE
Maynard, Paul Scully, Paul
RELATIONSHIP
McCartney, Jason Seely, Bob
McCartney, Karl Selous, Andrew ‘(1) The Secretary of State may not engage in negotiations on
McPartland, Stephen Shannon, Jim the future relationship between the UK and the EU until a
McVey, rh Esther Shapps, rh Grant
Minister of the Crown has laid a draft negotiating mandate
before each House of Parliament and—
Menzies, Mark Sharma, rh Alok
Mercer, Johnny Shelbrooke, rh Alec (a) moved an amendable motion in the House of Commons
Merriman, Huw Simmonds, David containing the text of the draft negotiating mandate;
Metcalfe, Stephen Skidmore, rh Chris (b) the draft negotiating mandate (as amended) has been
Millar, Robin Smith, Chloe approved by a resolution of the House of Commons,
Miller, rh Mrs Maria Smith, Greg and
Milling, Amanda Smith, Henry (c) a motion for the House of Lords to take note of the
Mills, Nigel Solloway, Amanda draft negotiating mandate has been moved in that
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spencer, Dr Ben House by a Minister of the Crown.
Mohindra, Gagan Spencer, rh Mark (2) The draft negotiating mandate must set out in detail—
Moore, Damien Stevenson, Jane (a) the UK’s negotiation objectives,
Moore, Robbie Stevenson, John (b) all fields and sectors to be included in the proposed
Mordaunt, rh Penny Stewart, Iain negotiations,
Morris, Anne Marie Stride, rh Mel (c) the principles to underpin the proposed negotiation,
Morris, David Sturdy, Julian
(d) any limits on the proposed negotiations, and
Morris, James Sunak, rh Rishi
Morrissey, Joy Sunderland, James (e) the desired outcomes from the proposed negotiations.
Morton, Wendy Swayne, rh Sir Desmond (3) Prior to laying the draft negotiating mandate, a Minister of
Mullan, Dr Kieran Syms, Sir Robert the Crown must have consulted each devolved administration on
Mumby-Croft, Holly Thomas, Derek the negotiating mandate.
Mundell, rh David Throup, Maggie (4) Prior to the House’s consideration of a motion under
Murray, Mrs Sheryll Timpson, Edward subsection (1)(b), a Minister of the Crown must lay before both
Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tolhurst, Kelly Houses of Parliament a sustainability impact assessment conducted
Neill, Sir Robert Tomlinson, Justin by a credible body independent of government following consultation
Nici, Lia Tomlinson, Michael with—
Nokes, rh Caroline Tracey, Craig (a) each devolved administration,
Norman, rh Jesse Trott, Laura (b) public bodies, businesses, trade unions and non-
O’Brien, Neil Truss, rh Elizabeth governmental organisations which, in the opinion of
Offord, Dr Matthew Tugendhat, Tom the independent body, have a relevant interest, and
Opperman, Guy Vara, Mr Shailesh (c) the public.
Paisley, Ian Vickers, Martin (5) The assessment shall include both qualitative and quantitative
Parish, Neil Vickers, Matt assessments of the potential impacts of the proposed trade agreement,
Patel, rh Priti including—
Wakeford, Christian
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Walker, Sir Charles (a) social,
Pawsey, Mark
Walker, Mr Robin (b) economic,
Penning, rh Sir Mike
Wallace, rh Mr Ben (c) environmental,
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew Wallis, Dr Jamie (d) gender,
Philp, Chris Warburton, David
(e) equalities,
Pincher, rh Christopher Warman, Matt
(f) climate change,
Poulter, Dr Dan Watling, Giles
Webb, Suzanne (g) human rights,
Pow, Rebecca
Prentis, Victoria Whately, Helen (h) labour,
Pritchard, Mark Wheeler, Mrs Heather (i) development, and
Pursglove, Tom Whittaker, Craig (j) regional
Quin, Jeremy Whittingdale, rh Mr John impacts.
Quince, Will Wiggin, Bill
(6) In conducting negotiations on the future relationship with
Randall, Tom Wild, James the EU, a Minister of the Crown must seek to achieve the
Redwood, rh John Williams, Craig objectives set out in the negotiating mandate approved under
Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Williamson, rh Gavin subsection (1)(b).
Richards, Nicola Wilson, rh Sammy
Richardson, Angela
(7) After the end of each reporting period, a Minister of the
Wood, Mike Crown must—
Roberts, Rob Wragg, Mr William
Robertson, Mr Laurence (a) lay before each House of Parliament a report on the
Wright, rh Jeremy progress made, by the end of the period, in
Robinson, Gavin
Young, Jacob negotiations on the future relationship with the EU,
Robinson, Mary
Zahawi, Nadhim including—
Rosindell, Andrew
Ross, Douglas Tellers for the Noes: (i) the Minister’s assessment of the extent to which the
Rowley, Lee Maria Caulfield and outcome of those negotiations is likely to reflect
Russell, Dean Mr Marcus Jones the negotiating mandate approved under subsection
(1)(b), and
(ii) if the Minister’s assessment is that the future
Question accordingly negatived. relationship with the EU is, in any respect, not
likely to reflect that mandate, an explanation of
Clause 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill. why that is so, and
451 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 452
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(b) lay before each House of Parliament the latest rounds Blackford, rh Ian Ferrier, Margaret
of negotiating texts, by the end of each reporting Blackman, Kirsty Fletcher, Colleen
period, and Blake, Olivia Flynn, Stephen
(c) provide a copy of the report to the Presiding Officer of Blomfield, Paul Fovargue, Yvonne
each of the devolved legislatures and to— Bonnar, Steven Foxcroft, Vicky
(i) the Scottish Ministers, Brabin, Tracy Foy, Mary Kelly
(ii) the Welsh Ministers, and Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Furniss, Gill
(iii) the First Minister and deputy First Minister in Brennan, Kevin Gibson, Patricia
Northern Ireland or the Executive Office in Brock, Deidre Gill, Preet Kaur
Northern Ireland. Brown, Alan Glindon, Mary
(8) Subsections (9) to (13) apply if, in the opinion of a Minister Brown, Ms Lyn Grady, Patrick
of the Crown, an agreement in principle has been reached with Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Grant, Peter
the EU on a treaty the principal purpose of which is to deal with Bryant, Chris Gray, Neil
all or part of the future relationship with the EU. Buck, Ms Karen Green, Kate
Burgon, Richard Greenwood, Lilian
(9) A Minister of the Crown must lay before each House of
Parliament— Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Margaret
Byrne, Ian Griffith, Nia
(a) a statement that political agreement has been reached,
Byrne, rh Liam Gwynne, Andrew
and
Cadbury, Ruth Haigh, Louise
(b) a copy of the negotiated future relationship treaty. Callaghan, Amy Hamilton, Fabian
(10) Prior to the laying of the text of the proposed treaty, the Cameron, Dr Lisa Hanna, Claire
Secretary of State must have consulted with each devolved Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanvey, Neale
administration on the text of the proposed agreement and taken Carden, Dan Hardy, Emma
their views into account, with special consideration given to Chamberlain, Wendy Harman, rh Ms Harriet
matters relating to devolved competences. Champion, Sarah Harris, Carolyn
(11) Prior to considering a motion approving the text of the Chapman, Douglas Hayes, Helen
negotiated future relationship treaty, the Government must lay Charalambous, Bambos Healey, rh John
before each House of Parliament a response to any report by a Cherry, Joanna Hendry, Drew
relevant Parliamentary committee (such as the Exiting the EU Clark, Feryal Hill, Mike
select committee) containing a recommendation in relation to the Cooper, Daisy Hillier, Meg
ratification of the agreement. Cooper, Rosie Hobhouse, Wera
(12) A treaty in the same form, or to substantially the same Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate
effect, as the negotiated future relationship treaty may be ratified Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel
only if the negotiated future relationship treaty has been Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart
approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on an Coyle, Neil Huq, Dr Rupa
amendable motion moved by a Minister of the Crown and— Crawley, Angela Hussain, Imran
(a) the House of Lords has not resolved, within the period Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Jardine, Christine
of 14 Lords sitting days beginning with the day on cast by Peter Kyle) Johnson, Dame Diana
which the negotiated future relationship treaty is laid Cruddas, Jon Johnson, Kim
before that House, that any treaty resulting from it Cryer, John Jones, Darren
should not be ratified, or Cummins, Judith Jones, Gerald
(b) if the House of Lords has so resolved within that Cunningham, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan
period, a Minister of the Crown has laid before each Daby, Janet Jones, Ruth
House of Parliament a statement indicating that the Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, Sarah
Minister is of the opinion that the treaty should David, Wayne Kane, Mike
nevertheless be ratified and explaining why. Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara
(13) Section 20 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Davies-Jones, Alex Kendall, Liz
Act 2010 (treaties to be laid before Parliament before ratification) Day, Martyn Khan, Afzal
does not apply in relation to a treaty if subsection (11) applies in De Cordova, Marsha Kinnock, Stephen
relation to the ratification of that treaty.’—(Caroline Lucas.) Debbonaire, Thangam Kyle, Peter
This new clause ensures that MPs get a guaranteed vote with an Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lake, Ben
amendable motion on the EU-UK Future Relationship and Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lavery, Ian
negotiating objectives, and sets out scrutiny of the negotiating Dodds, Anneliese Law, Chris
mandate. It requires a sustainability impact assessment of the Doogan, Dave Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
future relationship; the regular release of negotiation texts; and Dorans, Allan Lewis, Clive
engagement with devolved administrations. Doughty, Stephen Linden, David
Brought up. Dowd, Peter Lloyd, Tony
Dromey, Jack Long Bailey, Rebecca
Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.
Duffield, Rosie Lucas, Caroline
The Committee divided: Ayes 251, Noes 347. Eagle, Ms Angela Lynch, Holly
Division No. 8] [3.12 pm Eagle, Maria MacAskill, Kenny
Eastwood, Colum MacNeil, Angus Brendan
AYES Edwards, Jonathan Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Efford, Clive Mahmood, Shabana
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Ashworth, Jonathan
Elliott, Julie Malhotra, Seema
Abrahams, Debbie Bardell, Hannah Elmore, Chris Maskell, Rachael
Ali, Rushanara Barker, Paula Eshalomi, Florence Matheson, Christian
Ali, Tahir Beckett, rh Margaret Esterson, Bill McCabe, Steve
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Begum, Apsana Evans, Chris McCarthy, Kerry
Amesbury, Mike Benn, rh Hilary Farron, Tim McDonagh, Siobhain
Anderson, Fleur Betts, Mr Clive Farry, Stephen McDonald, Andy
Antoniazzi, Tonia Black, Mhairi Fellows, Marion McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
453 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 454
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
McDonald, Stuart C. Shah, Naz Britcliffe, Sara Farris, Laura
McDonnell, rh John Sharma, Mr Virendra Brokenshire, rh James Fell, Simon
McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sheerman, Mr Barry Browne, Anthony Fletcher, Katherine
McGinn, Conor Sheppard, Tommy Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Mark
McKinnell, Catherine Siddiq, Tulip Buchan, Felicity Fletcher, Nick
McLaughlin, Anne Slaughter, Andy Buckland, rh Robert Ford, Vicky
McMahon, Jim Smith, Alyn Burghart, Alex Foster, Kevin
McMorrin, Anna Smith, Cat Burns, rh Conor Fox, rh Dr Liam
Mearns, Ian Smith, Jeff Butler, Rob Francois, rh Mr Mark
Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Nick Cairns, rh Alun Frazer, Lucy
Mishra, Navendu Smyth, Karin Campbell, Mr Gregory Freeman, George
Monaghan, Carol Sobel, Alex Carter, Andy Freer, Mike
Moran, Layla Spellar, rh John Cartlidge, James Fuller, Richard
Morden, Jessica Starmer, rh Keir Cash, Sir William Fysh, Mr Marcus
Morgan, Mr Stephen Stephens, Chris Cates, Miriam Garnier, Mark
Morris, Grahame Stevens, Jo Caulfield, Maria Ghani, Ms Nusrat
Murray, Ian Streeting, Wes Chalk, Alex Gibb, rh Nick
Murray, James Sultana, Zarah Chishti, Rehman Gibson, Peter
Nandy, Lisa Tami, rh Mark Chope, Sir Christopher Gideon, Jo
Newlands, Gavin Tarry, Sam Churchill, Jo Girvan, Paul
Nichols, Charlotte Thewliss, Alison Clark, rh Greg Glen, John
Nicolson, John Clarke, Mr Simon Goodwill, rh Mr Robert
Thomas, Gareth
Norris, Alex Clarke, Theo Gove, rh Michael
Thomas-Symonds, Nick
O’Hara, Brendan Clarke-Smith, Brendan Graham, Richard
Thompson, Owen
Olney, Sarah Clarkson, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen
Thomson, Richard
Onwurah, Chi Cleverly, rh James Gray, James
Oppong-Asare, Abena Thornberry, rh Emily
Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Grayling, rh Chris
Osamor, Kate Timms, rh Stephen Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Green, rh Damian
Oswald, Kirsten Trickett, Jon Colburn, Elliot Griffith, Andrew
Owatemi, Taiwo Twigg, Derek Collins, Damian Griffiths, Kate
Owen, Sarah Twist, Liz Costa, Alberto Grundy, James
Peacock, Stephanie Vaz, rh Valerie Courts, Robert Gullis, Jonathan
Pennycook, Matthew Webbe, Claudia Coutinho, Claire Halfon, rh Robert
Perkins, Mr Toby Western, Matt Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hall, Luke
Phillips, Jess Whitehead, Dr Alan Crabb, rh Stephen Hammond, Stephen
Phillipson, Bridget Whitford, Dr Philippa Crosbie, Virginia Hancock, rh Matt
Pollard, Luke Whitley, Mick Crouch, Tracey Hands, rh Greg
Qureshi, Yasmin Whittome, Nadia Daly, James Harper, rh Mr Mark
Rayner, Angela Williams, Hywel Davies, David T. C. Harris, Rebecca
Reed, Mr Steve Wilson, Munira Davies, Gareth Hart, Sally-Ann
Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Winter, Beth Davies, Dr James Hart, rh Simon
by Bambos Charalambous) Winterton, rh Dame Rosie Davies, Mims Hayes, rh Sir John
Reeves, Rachel Davies, Philip Heald, rh Sir Oliver
Wishart, Pete
Reynolds, Jonathan Davis, rh Mr David Heappey, James
Yasin, Mohammad
Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Davison, Dehenna Henderson, Gordon
Zeichner, Daniel
Rimmer, Ms Marie Dinenage, Caroline Henry, Darren
Rodda, Matt Tellers for the Ayes: Dines, Miss Sarah Higginbotham, Antony
Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Mr Alistair Carmichael and Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, rh Damian
Saville Roberts, rh Liz Jamie Stone Docherty, Leo Hoare, Simon
Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Holden, Mr Richard
Donelan, Michelle Hollinrake, Kevin
NOES
Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollobone, Mr Philip
Adams, Nigel Baker, Duncan Double, Steve Holloway, Adam
Afolami, Bim Baldwin, Harriett Dowden, rh Oliver Holmes, Paul
Afriyie, Adam Baron, Mr John Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John
Ahmad Khan, Imran Bell, Aaron Drax, Richard Howell, Paul
Aiken, Nickie Benton, Scott Drummond, Mrs Flick Huddleston, Nigel
Aldous, Peter Beresford, Sir Paul Duddridge, James Hudson, Dr Neil
Allan, Lucy Berry, rh Jake Duguid, David Hughes, Eddie
Amess, Sir David Bhatti, Saqib Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Jane
Anderson, Lee Blackman, Bob Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, rh Jeremy
Anderson, Stuart Blunt, Crispin Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Tom
Ansell, Caroline Bone, Mr Peter Edwards, Ruth Jack, rh Mr Alister
Argar, Edward Bottomley, Sir Peter Ellis, rh Michael Jenkin, Sir Bernard
Atherton, Sarah Bowie, Andrew Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkinson, Mark
Atkins, Victoria Bradley, Ben Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea
Bacon, Mr Gareth Bradley, rh Karen Eustice, George Jenrick, rh Robert
Bacon, Mr Richard Brady, Sir Graham Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Dr Caroline
Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Brereton, Jack Evans, Mr Nigel Johnson, Gareth
cast by Leo Docherty) Bridgen, Andrew Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew
Bailey, Shaun Brine, Steve Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David
Baillie, Siobhan Bristow, Paul Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay
455 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 456
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Jones, Mr Marcus Opperman, Guy Walker, Mr Robin Wild, James
Jupp, Simon Paisley, Ian Wallace, rh Mr Ben Williams, Craig
Kawczynski, Daniel Parish, Neil Wallis, Dr Jamie Williamson, rh Gavin
Kearns, Alicia Patel, rh Priti Warburton, David Wilson, rh Sammy
Keegan, Gillian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Warman, Matt Wood, Mike
Knight, rh Sir Greg Pawsey, Mark Watling, Giles Wragg, Mr William
Knight, Julian Penning, rh Sir Mike Webb, Suzanne Wright, rh Jeremy
Kruger, Danny Penrose, John Whately, Helen Young, Jacob
Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Percy, Andrew Wheeler, Mrs Heather Zahawi, Nadhim
Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Philp, Chris Whittaker, Craig Tellers for the Noes:
Lamont, John Pincher, rh Christopher Whittingdale, rh Mr John Stuart Andrew and
Largan, Robert Poulter, Dr Dan Wiggin, Bill Iain Stewart
Latham, Mrs Pauline Pow, Rebecca
Leigh, rh Sir Edward Prentis, Victoria
Levy, Ian Pritchard, Mark Question accordingly negatived.
Lewer, Andrew Pursglove, Tom
Lewis, rh Brandon Quin, Jeremy
Lewis, rh Dr Julian Quince, Will
New Clause 55
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Randall, Tom
Lockhart, Carla Redwood, rh John NORTHERN IRELAND’S PLACE IN THE UK INTERNAL
Loder, Chris Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob MARKET
Logan, Mark Richards, Nicola “(1) As part of its obligation under Article 6.2 of the Protocol
Longhi, Marco Richardson, Angela on Ireland/Northern Ireland to use its best endeavours to
Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Roberts, Rob facilitate trade between Northern Ireland and other parts of the
by Lee Rowley) Robertson, Mr Laurence UK, the UK Government must—
Lopresti, Jack Robinson, Gavin (a) publish an assessment at least every 12 months of any
Lord, Mr Jonathan Robinson, Mary negative impacts on businesses and consumers
Loughton, Tim Rosindell, Andrew arising from the Protocol on trade between Great
Mackinlay, Craig Ross, Douglas Britain and Northern Ireland and vice versa; and
Mackrory, Cherilyn Rowley, Lee (b) develop mitigations to safeguard the place of Northern
Maclean, Rachel Russell, Dean Ireland businesses and consumers in the UK internal
Mak, Alan Rutley, David market.
Malthouse, Kit Sambrook, Gary (2) The assessment published under paragraph (1)(a) must
Mangnall, Anthony Saxby, Selaine include assessment of the impact of any actual or proposed
Mann, Scott Scully, Paul regulatory or trade policy divergence on Northern Ireland’s place
Marson, Julie Seely, Bob in the UK Internal Market.
May, rh Mrs Theresa Selous, Andrew (3) Any official or administrative costs arising from the duties
Mayhew, Jerome Shannon, Jim under subsections (1) and (2) may not be recouped from the
Maynard, Paul Shapps, rh Grant private sector.”—(Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson.)
McCartney, Jason Sharma, rh Alok
McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, rh Alec Brought up.
McPartland, Stephen Simmonds, David
McVey, rh Esther Skidmore, rh Chris
Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill..
Menzies, Mark Smith, Chloe The Committee divided: Ayes 262, Noes 337.
Mercer, Johnny Smith, Greg
Merriman, Huw Smith, Henry
Division No. 9] [3.27 pm
Metcalfe, Stephen Solloway, Amanda
Millar, Robin Spencer, Dr Ben AYES
Miller, rh Mrs Maria Spencer, rh Mark Abbott, rh Ms Diane Brock, Deidre
Milling, Amanda Stevenson, Jane Abrahams, Debbie Brown, Alan
Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Ali, Rushanara Brown, Ms Lyn
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stride, rh Mel Ali, Tahir Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Mohindra, Gagan Sturdy, Julian Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Bryant, Chris
Moore, Damien Sunak, rh Rishi Amesbury, Mike Buck, Ms Karen
Moore, Robbie Sunderland, James Anderson, Fleur Burgon, Richard
Mordaunt, rh Penny Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Antoniazzi, Tonia Butler, Dawn
Morris, Anne Marie Syms, Sir Robert Ashworth, Jonathan Byrne, Ian
Morris, David Thomas, Derek Bardell, Hannah Byrne, rh Liam
Morris, James Throup, Maggie Barker, Paula Cadbury, Ruth
Morrissey, Joy Timpson, Edward Beckett, rh Margaret Callaghan, Amy
Morton, Wendy Tolhurst, Kelly Begum, Apsana Cameron, Dr Lisa
Mullan, Dr Kieran Tomlinson, Justin Benn, rh Hilary Campbell, rh Sir Alan
Mumby-Croft, Holly Tomlinson, Michael Betts, Mr Clive Campbell, Mr Gregory
Mundell, rh David Tracey, Craig Black, Mhairi Carden, Dan
Murray, Mrs Sheryll Trott, Laura Blackford, rh Ian Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Truss, rh Elizabeth Blackman, Kirsty Chamberlain, Wendy
Neill, Sir Robert Tugendhat, Tom Blake, Olivia Champion, Sarah
Nici, Lia Vara, Mr Shailesh Blomfield, Paul Chapman, Douglas
Nokes, rh Caroline Vickers, Martin Bonnar, Steven Charalambous, Bambos
Norman, rh Jesse Vickers, Matt Brabin, Tracy Cherry, Joanna
O’Brien, Neil Wakeford, Christian Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Clark, Feryal
Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Sir Charles Brennan, Kevin Cooper, Daisy
457 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 458
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Cooper, Rosie Hill, Mike Osamor, Kate Starmer, rh Keir
Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg Oswald, Kirsten Stephens, Chris
Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hobhouse, Wera Owatemi, Taiwo Stevens, Jo
Cowan, Ronnie Hollern, Kate Owen, Sarah Stone, Jamie
Coyle, Neil Hopkins, Rachel Paisley, Ian Streeting, Wes
Crawley, Angela Hosie, Stewart Peacock, Stephanie Stringer, Graham
Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Huq, Dr Rupa Pennycook, Matthew Sultana, Zarah
cast by Peter Kyle) Hussain, Imran Perkins, Mr Toby Tami, rh Mark
Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine Phillips, Jess Tarry, Sam
Cryer, John Johnson, Dame Diana Phillipson, Bridget Thewliss, Alison
Cummins, Judith Johnson, Kim Pollard, Luke Thomas, Gareth
Cunningham, Alex Jones, Darren Qureshi, Yasmin Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Daby, Janet Jones, Gerald Rayner, Angela Thomson, Richard
Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reed, Mr Steve Thornberry, rh Emily
David, Wayne Jones, Ruth Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Timms, rh Stephen
Davies, Geraint Jones, Sarah by Bambos Charalambous) Trickett, Jon
Davies-Jones, Alex Kane, Mike Reeves, Rachel Twigg, Derek
Day, Martyn Keeley, Barbara Reynolds, Jonathan Twist, Liz
De Cordova, Marsha Kendall, Liz Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Vaz, rh Valerie
Debbonaire, Thangam Khan, Afzal Rimmer, Ms Marie Webbe, Claudia
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kinnock, Stephen Robinson, Gavin West, Catherine
Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kyle, Peter Rodda, Matt Western, Matt
Dodds, Anneliese Lake, Ben Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Whitehead, Dr Alan
Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lavery, Ian Saville Roberts, rh Liz Whitford, Dr Philippa
Doogan, Dave Law, Chris Shah, Naz Whitley, Mick
Dorans, Allan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Shannon, Jim Whittome, Nadia
Doughty, Stephen Lewis, Clive Sharma, Mr Virendra Williams, Hywel
Dowd, Peter Linden, David Sheerman, Mr Barry Wilson, Munira
Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony Sheppard, Tommy Wilson, rh Sammy
Duffield, Rosie Lockhart, Carla Siddiq, Tulip Winter, Beth
Eagle, Ms Angela Long Bailey, Rebecca Slaughter, Andy Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Eagle, Maria Lucas, Caroline Smith, Alyn
Wishart, Pete
Eastwood, Colum Lynch, Holly Smith, Cat
Yasin, Mohammad
Edwards, Jonathan MacAskill, Kenny Smith, Jeff
Zeichner, Daniel
Efford, Clive MacNeil, Angus Brendan Smith, Nick
Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smyth, Karin Tellers for the Ayes:
Elmore, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Sobel, Alex Owen Thompson and
Eshalomi, Florence Malhotra, Seema Spellar, rh John Paul Girvan
Esterson, Bill Maskell, Rachael
Evans, Chris Matheson, Christian
NOES
Farron, Tim McCabe, Steve
Farry, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Adams, Nigel Bottomley, Sir Peter
Fellows, Marion McDonagh, Siobhain Afolami, Bim Bowie, Andrew
Ferrier, Margaret McDonald, Andy Afriyie, Adam Bradley, Ben
Fletcher, Colleen McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Ahmad Khan, Imran Bradley, rh Karen
Flynn, Stephen McDonald, Stuart C. Aiken, Nickie Brady, Sir Graham
Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, rh John Aldous, Peter Brereton, Jack
Foxcroft, Vicky McFadden, rh Mr Pat Allan, Lucy Bridgen, Andrew
Foy, Mary Kelly McGinn, Conor Amess, Sir David Brine, Steve
Furniss, Gill McKinnell, Catherine Anderson, Lee Bristow, Paul
Gibson, Patricia McLaughlin, Anne Anderson, Stuart Britcliffe, Sara
Gill, Preet Kaur McMahon, Jim Ansell, Caroline Brokenshire, rh James
Glindon, Mary McMorrin, Anna Argar, Edward Browne, Anthony
Grady, Patrick Mearns, Ian Atherton, Sarah Bruce, Fiona
Grant, Peter Miliband, rh Edward Atkins, Victoria Buchan, Felicity
Gray, Neil Mishra, Navendu Bacon, Mr Gareth Buckland, rh Robert
Green, Kate Monaghan, Carol Bacon, Mr Richard Burghart, Alex
Greenwood, Lilian Moran, Layla Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Burns, rh Conor
Greenwood, Margaret Morden, Jessica cast by Leo Docherty) Butler, Rob
Griffith, Nia Morgan, Mr Stephen Bailey, Shaun Cairns, rh Alun
Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame Baillie, Siobhan Carter, Andy
Haigh, Louise Murray, Ian Baker, Duncan Cartlidge, James
Hamilton, Fabian Murray, James Baldwin, Harriett Cash, Sir William
Hanna, Claire Nandy, Lisa Baron, Mr John Cates, Miriam
Hanvey, Neale Newlands, Gavin Bell, Aaron Caulfield, Maria
Hardy, Emma Nichols, Charlotte Benton, Scott Chalk, Alex
Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nicolson, John Beresford, Sir Paul Chishti, Rehman
Harris, Carolyn Norris, Alex Berry, rh Jake Chope, Sir Christopher
Hayes, Helen O’Hara, Brendan Bhatti, Saqib Churchill, Jo
Healey, rh John Olney, Sarah Blackman, Bob Clark, rh Greg
Hendrick, Sir Mark Onwurah, Chi Blunt, Crispin Clarke, Mr Simon
Hendry, Drew Oppong-Asare, Abena Bone, Mr Peter Clarke, Theo
459 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 460
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Robinson, Mary
Clarkson, Chris Green, rh Damian Mackinlay, Craig Rosindell, Andrew
Cleverly, rh James Griffith, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn Ross, Douglas
Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Griffiths, Kate Maclean, Rachel Rowley, Lee
Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Grundy, James Mak, Alan Russell, Dean
Colburn, Elliot Gullis, Jonathan Malthouse, Kit Rutley, David
Collins, Damian Halfon, rh Robert Mangnall, Anthony Sambrook, Gary
Costa, Alberto Hall, Luke Mann, Scott Saxby, Selaine
Courts, Robert Hammond, Stephen Marson, Julie Scully, Paul
Coutinho, Claire Hancock, rh Matt May, rh Mrs Theresa Seely, Bob
Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hands, rh Greg Mayhew, Jerome Selous, Andrew
Crabb, rh Stephen Harper, rh Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Sharma, rh Alok
Crosbie, Virginia Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Crouch, Tracey Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Karl Simmonds, David
Daly, James Hart, rh Simon McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, rh Chris
Davies, David T. C. Hayes, rh Sir John McVey, rh Esther Smith, Chloe
Davies, Gareth Heald, rh Sir Oliver Menzies, Mark Smith, Greg
Davies, Dr James Heappey, James Mercer, Johnny Smith, Henry
Davies, Mims Henderson, Gordon Merriman, Huw Solloway, Amanda
Davies, Philip Henry, Darren Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, Dr Ben
Davis, rh Mr David Higginbotham, Antony Millar, Robin Spencer, rh Mark
Davison, Dehenna Hinds, rh Damian Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stevenson, Jane
Dinenage, Caroline Hoare, Simon Milling, Amanda Stevenson, John
Dines, Miss Sarah Holden, Mr Richard Mills, Nigel Stride, rh Mel
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollinrake, Kevin Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sturdy, Julian
Docherty, Leo Hollobone, Mr Philip Mohindra, Gagan Sunak, rh Rishi
Donelan, Michelle Holloway, Adam Moore, Damien Sunderland, James
Dorries, Ms Nadine Holmes, Paul Moore, Robbie Swayne, rh Sir Desmond
Double, Steve Howell, John Mordaunt, rh Penny Syms, Sir Robert
Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, Paul Morris, Anne Marie Thomas, Derek
Doyle-Price, Jackie Huddleston, Nigel Morris, David Throup, Maggie
Drax, Richard Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, James Timpson, Edward
Drummond, Mrs Flick Hughes, Eddie Morrissey, Joy Tolhurst, Kelly
Duddridge, James Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy Tomlinson, Justin
Duguid, David Hunt, rh Jeremy Mullan, Dr Kieran Tomlinson, Michael
Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Tom Mumby-Croft, Holly Tracey, Craig
Dunne, rh Philip Jack, rh Mr Alister Mundell, rh David Trott, Laura
Eastwood, Mark Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murray, Mrs Sheryll Truss, rh Elizabeth
Edwards, Ruth Jenkinson, Mark Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tugendhat, Tom
Ellis, rh Michael Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Neill, Sir Robert Vara, Mr Shailesh
Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenrick, rh Robert Nici, Lia Vickers, Martin
Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Dr Caroline Nokes, rh Caroline
Vickers, Matt
Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse
Wakeford, Christian
Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Andrew O’Brien, Neil
Walker, Sir Charles
Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, rh Mr David Offord, Dr Matthew
Walker, Mr Robin
Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Fay Opperman, Guy
Everitt, Ben Parish, Neil Wallace, rh Mr Ben
Jones, Mr Marcus
Fabricant, Michael Jupp, Simon Patel, rh Priti Wallis, Dr Jamie
Farris, Laura Kawczynski, Daniel Paterson, rh Mr Owen Warburton, David
Fell, Simon Kearns, Alicia Pawsey, Mark Warman, Matt
Fletcher, Katherine Keegan, Gillian Penning, rh Sir Mike Watling, Giles
Fletcher, Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Penrose, John Webb, Suzanne
Fletcher, Nick Knight, Julian Percy, Andrew Whately, Helen
Ford, Vicky Kruger, Danny Philp, Chris Wheeler, Mrs Heather
Foster, Kevin Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pincher, rh Christopher Whittaker, Craig
Fox, rh Dr Liam Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Poulter, Dr Dan Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamont, John Pow, Rebecca Wiggin, Bill
Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert Prentis, Victoria Wild, James
Freeman, George Latham, Mrs Pauline Pritchard, Mark Williams, Craig
Freer, Mike Leigh, rh Sir Edward Pursglove, Tom Williamson, rh Gavin
Fuller, Richard Levy, Ian Quin, Jeremy Wood, Mike
Fysh, Mr Marcus Lewer, Andrew Quince, Will Wragg, Mr William
Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewis, rh Brandon Randall, Tom Wright, rh Jeremy
Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Dr Julian Redwood, rh John
Young, Jacob
Gibson, Peter Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Zahawi, Nadhim
Gideon, Jo Loder, Chris Richards, Nicola
Glen, John Logan, Mark
Richardson, Angela Tellers for the Noes:
Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Roberts, Rob Stuart Andrew and
Longhi, Marco
Robertson, Mr Laurence Iain Stewart
Gove, rh Michael Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast
Graham, Richard by Lee Rowley)
Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack Question accordingly negatived.
Gray, James Lord, Mr Jonathan
461 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 462
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Clause 38 the withdrawal agreement (but this does not affect
whether that section applies to any modification of
PARLIAMENTARY SOVEREIGNTY the withdrawal agreement).”
This new clause would require the Government to give the public the
Thangam Debbonaire: I beg to move amendment 11, final say on Brexit through a people’s vote, with the choice between
in clause 38, page 37, line 24, at end insert— leaving under the terms of the withdrawal agreement and
“and has been so during the period since the passage of the remaining in the EU.
European Communities Act 1972.”
Thangam Debbonaire: I rise to speak about parliamentary
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means sovereignty. Clause 38 is a puzzle, and we have tabled
(Sir Gary Streeter): With this it will be convenient to our amendment 11 to tease out more of that puzzle, to
discuss the following: try to work out what it is for and to expose some of
Amendment 35, in clause 38, page 37, line 39, at end what we on this side believe has been quite puzzling
insert— leadership on the part of those who have been peddling
“insofar as future primary legislation may expressly repeal all the idea that we are going to take back control of our
or any provisions of this Act, but only to that extent.” laws, our money and our borders because they have
This amendment would ensure that existing and future primary somehow not been under our control for the last 40 years.
legislation that impliedly repealed Section 7A, etc of the European I am going to stop using the phrase “take back control”
Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 would be invalid, despite the in a moment, but I will first analyse it to make my point
doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty. about our amendment.
Clauses 38 to 40 stand part. We have been repeatedly told that the EU referendum
That schedule 4 be the Fourth schedule to the Bill. was about taking back control and restoring parliamentary
Clause 41 stand part. sovereignty. I am seeing nods from certain esteemed
That schedule 5 be the Fifth schedule to the Bill. Government Members telling me that that is indeed
Amendment 9, in clause 42, page 41, line 6, leave out what it was about. It was not about that, however. I find
from “force” to end of line 6 and insert— this most puzzling. Have we ever actually lost our
“only when each House of Parliament has approved a motion
parliamentary sovereignty? The answer is, of course,
tabled by a Minister of the Crown considering a ministerial no. Saying that Brexit is about taking back control of
economic impact assessment of the commencement of this Act.” our laws, our money and our borders is quite extraordinary.
Let us start with laws. Have all the laws we have passed
This amendment would require the House to endorse an economic
impact assessment of measures this bill would implement. in the past 40 years been just a dream? Did we imagine
all those laws? Just in the four years since I took my
Clause 42 stand part.
seat, we have passed law after law. We have put Bills
New clause 28—Conditional approval subject to a through a process of scrutiny, debate and amendment.
confirmation referendum—
‘(1) The condition in this subsection is that a further John Redwood: But does the hon. Lady not understand
referendum has been held on the UK’s withdrawal from the the message of the referendum and the election? There
European Union in which the electorate has been offered two
are very large numbers of directly acting regulations
options—
that we can do nothing about, and we have had a lot of
(a) the option for the UK to leave the European Union in legislation going through this House directed by EU
accordance with the withdrawal agreement and a
framework for the future relationship; and
directives, which the UK was not happy with.
(b) the option for the UK to remain in the European
Union on existing membership terms Thangam Debbonaire: I understand the difference
between a law and a directive. I also understand the fact
and that the Chief Returning Officer has certified that a
that we were perfectly capable of making our own laws
majority of voters has supported the option for the UK to leave
the European Union in accordance with the withdrawal during the past 40 years. Let us take an example that I
agreement and the framework for the future relationship. am very fond of—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member
for Wokingham (John Redwood) is shaking his head,
(2) If the condition in subsection (1) has been fulfilled, then—
but he knows perfectly well that we have passed laws.
(a) the approval of the withdrawal agreement by the For instance, let us take one that was passed on the very
House of Commons required under section 13(1)(b)
last day of the last Parliament. My dear friend Stephen
of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 is
deemed to have been given; Pound, the former MP for Ealing North, was standing
right here at the Dispatch Box making his last speech as
(b) the House of Lords is deemed to have debated the
motion required under section 13(1) of the European
shadow Northern Ireland Minister. He was closing for
Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018; the Opposition on the final stages of the Historical
Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill, which would
(c) the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2019
is, for the purposes of section 13(1)(d) of the European
at last provide compensation for victims of historical
Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, an Act of Parliament child abuse. He marked that occasion with tributes to
which contains provision for the implementation of the victims, some of whom were in the Gallery, with
the withdrawal agreement; respect for cross-party collaboration and with a heartfelt
(d) the Government must ratify the withdrawal agreement plea for the law to be implemented fully and speedily
within the period of three days beginning on the day and never to be needed again. Anyone who was in the
after certification by the Chief Returning Officer House that day, as I was, cannot fail to have been moved
under subsection (1); and by his speech but also by the impact of the law, whose
(e) requirements in section 20 of the Constitutional value to the lives of people who had suffered will
Reform and Governance Act 2010 (Treaties to be laid continue for many years. Many of us will always remember
before Parliament before ratification) do not apply to that debate.
463 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 464
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
John Redwood: Nobody is disputing that we can pass Is not parliamentary sovereignty supposed to be about
laws while a member of the EU as long as the EU allows elected right hon. and hon. Members holding the Executive
us to. It is quite simple. to account?

Thangam Debbonaire: I am going to continue with Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): Many folk
my example, because this is incredibly puzzling. I do not on the Government side of the House will be terribly
recall such a thing at any stage in the passage of this Bill disappointed when this all comes to an end and their
or any other Bill that I have been part of—as a Whip I hobby-horse of the past 40 years disappears. The real
have served on many a Public Bill Committee in the loss of sovereignty and the real power grab is the
past four years—because at no point during the passage amount of power being handed to mandarins in Whitehall
of the Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) and Cabinet Ministers here to pass Executive decisions
Act 2019 did anybody have to ring up the EU and ask without scrutiny in this House of Commons.
for permission.
Thangam Debbonaire: Indeed. I find it most puzzling
3.45 pm that Conservative Members who argued for a so-called
return to parliamentary sovereignty in this country are
Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): Does the quite happy to nod through a Bill that wipes away
hon. Lady not understand how nonsensical her argument parliamentary scrutiny of the process of negotiating the
is? Of course there are laws that remain within the remit future relationship. It is quite extraordinary.
of this Parliament; but equally, many areas of government
and political activity in this country are in the gift of the I remind Conservative Members that it was under a
European Union. There are also European Union Tory-led coalition Government that section 18 of the
regulations that are directly applicable within the United European Union Act 2011 clarified that limits on
Kingdom over which this Parliament has no control. sovereignty are at Parliament’s own behest and can, if
Does she not understand that? explicitly provided for, be revoked. The right hon. and
hon. Gentlemen who have intervened were presumably
Thangam Debbonaire: Regulations that would have here at that time. I was not, but I have read the text and
been discussed either in the European Parliament or the I know what it says. The Government’s own 2017 White
Council of Ministers, and those people are also elected Paper said
and have been for decades. Members have been elected “Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership
to the European Parliament since 1979. I know that, as of the EU”,
I am sure Conservative Members do, because I have and I watch with interest to see whether a Minister will
campaigned for those Members in elections. go back on that.

Sir William Cash: The hon. Lady just referred to the Chris Grayling: Does the hon. Lady not understand
Council of Ministers. Would she deny for a minute, as is that it has always been in the gift of Parliament to
well understood by everybody else, that decisions are repeal the Act that took us into the European Union
taken in the Council of Ministers by a majority vote of and to take us out of all European laws in their entirety?
other countries behind closed doors and without a It has never been in the gift of Parliament, as long as we
transcript? They are therefore not democratic. How can are subject to the rules of membership, to reject an
she talk about people being elected when the decisions individual agreed EU measure. That is the difference.
are actually taken in that manner?
Thangam Debbonaire: This is quite extraordinary
Thangam Debbonaire: The last time I looked, most— because, again, the right hon. Gentleman seems to have
although admittedly not all—of the Government’s Ministers forgotten that there was a referendum in which the
were democratically elected. We participated in the British people chose to be in the European Union, and
creation of the rules of that Council. I am going to skip they have voted for Members of the European Parliament
ahead in my speech and then come back again, because over the course of four decades. I have acknowledged
I wish to remind Conservative Members that it was, for that the result of the 2016 European Union referendum
instance, a Tory Government who took us into the is going to happen on 31 January, but we are arguing
single market, with all its rules. They rightly recognised here about a clause that is in the Bill, and it is entirely
the benefits of the shared rules of a single market. They proper for the Opposition to propose an amendment to
recognised that they were worth it and that they did not try to probe what on earth it means.
compromise our sovereignty. Did I imagine that we considered the Northern Ireland
historical abuse Bill? I checked Hansard this morning
Sir Desmond Swayne: Is the hon. Lady in denial, or and it appears that I was not dreaming—I was actually
has she been living in a bubble? We had a referendum, there. I did not dream the passage of the world’s first
and we have just had a general election that reinforced Climate Change Act in 2008. Nobody had to ring
the referendum result. Whatever she may say from that Brussels to ask, “Can we pass this law?” or if we could
Dispatch Box, that ship has sailed, as one of her colleagues equalise marriage. We have been passing our own laws
said. all this time. We have never needed to ask for permission.
It is not true that we have no say on EU rules; we have
Thangam Debbonaire: I understand that we are leaving had democratically elected representation in the EU
on 31 January. I understand the result of the general Parliament since 1979.
election. I am addressing this clause and our amendments
to it, which is entirely proper and entirely in keeping Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford
with the rules of Parliament and the Standing Orders Green) (Con): The hon. Lady has made two points that
and is actually what sovereignty is supposed to be about. I think are incorrect. First, the British people voted to
465 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 466
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Sir Iain Duncan Smith] I am sure that Members know this, but our sovereignty
was never in doubt and was not diminished. I could
join something where we had a full veto over anything spend a long time asking what this non-argument about
that we did not agree could be imposed on the UK. sovereignty has all been about, but I am pretty sure that
Secondly, on judicial activism and the mission creep of a lot of it—perhaps most of it—has been a false argument
the European Court of Justice, perhaps the hon. Lady to distract attention from the desire to deregulate this
would like to comment on the way in which power was country and turn us into a bargain basement nation
grabbed through two court cases—namely, those of with no attention given to workers’ rights, environmental
Van Gend en Loos and of Costa v. ENEL. protections, health and safety or any of the other regulations
in which we played a part in Europe, which we have
Thangam Debbonaire: One of the things that interests implemented and which have helped us help the people
me about the right hon. Gentleman’s argument is what we represent. I would like the Government to explain
we will do when we are trying to resolve a dispute over a the point of clause 38.
trade agreement at a supranational court—[Interruption.]
They will not be elected representatives. The World The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting
Trade Organisation court of dispute does not consist of the European Union (James Duddridge): Parliament is
elected representatives. Government Members seem quite sovereign, was sovereign and will be sovereign, and the
happy to hand over control to the WTO court of clause recognises that fundamental principle in our
dispute resolution and pretend that that is somehow constitutional arrangement, which is of great significance
more democratic. [Interruption.] Calling me silly is not to many hon. Members. Membership of the European
worthy of the right hon. Gentleman. Union has felt as though we have ceded control. We
We have been sovereign all this time. On our money, cannot pull back sovereignty piece by piece—Conservative
we have always had our sovereignty. We set our own budgets. Back Benchers mentioned a number of examples. Anybody
We are represented at EU budget setting by our who has sat on a delegated legislation Committee will
democratically elected representatives. As I have said, we have been told by the Minister, “We cannot change this
have even had opt-outs, negotiated by Tory Governments, because it has gone through the European processes
from some of those financial agreements. We have and we have to rubber stamp it.” The presumption was
negotiated opt-outs, variations, rebates and all sorts of that we were full members, and that was made worse by
specific conditions for the UK. qualified majority voting; previously, we had the ability
to come back to each individual matter.
The phrase used is “money, laws and borders” and I
cannot remember which way around they are, but on
borders we chose, rightly or wrongly—and we can decide Sir William Cash: A very simple example of what my
for ourselves whether it was right or wrong—how we hon. Friend mentions is the EU’s port services regulation,
interpreted the requirements on the free movement of which was opposed by every trade union, by the
people, one of the four freedoms of the single market, Government and by every one of the 47 port employers
which, I remind hon. Members, a Tory Government but went through this House simply because it had been
took us into. Other EU nations have interpreted that passed by a majority vote in the Council of Ministers.
freedom differently. We chose, as a sovereign nation, That regulation was imposed upon us by the abdication
not to participate in the Schengen area. We decide how of our sovereignty under section 2 of the European
we police our borders and whether or not there are enough Communities Act 1972.
border police.
James Duddridge: My hon. Friend is right. We could
We have also chosen to benefit from freedom of not do anything about that law or any other specific
movement, which I acknowledge will end after 31 January. issue without coming out of the European Union, taking
It is a freedom that I wish we had valued more and back control and asserting our sovereignty. Clause 38
whose passing I will truly mourn, but it never undermined reaffirms that sovereignty going forward and, crucially,
our sovereignty. That is implied even in the wording of during the implementation period.
the clause, because it states that “sovereignty subsists
notwithstanding”various provisions. Of course, we agree—
and will continue to agree after debate, scrutiny and Geraint Davies: Does the Minister accept that our
amendment—to many other rules beyond our borders. sovereignty is diminished, because we currently have a
International treaties, trade agreements and security veto on many votes? Some of them are subject to
co-operation arrangements all carry commitments to shared majority voting, as the former Chair of the European
rules and to abiding by the rules of supranational bodies Scrutiny Committee said, but we are one of 27 nations.
of dispute resolution, most of which are not elected, Now, under World Trade Organisation terms, we will be
but Parliament’s sovereignty will remain intact. one of 164 countries and unable to change the rules.
Those terms will jack up the cost of drugs and stop us
I ask the Minister respectfully if he will explain the nationalising things, which will constrain our sovereignty
legal and practical purpose of clause 38. Even the phrase, much more. The idea that we will have more sovereignty
“It is recognised”, has the feel of a political rather than rather than less is wrong, and the clause is therefore
a legal statement. The purpose of the Opposition’s misleading.
amendment 11 is to discover the Government’s intention.
We think that stating that Parliament is sovereign James Duddridge: I disagree with virtually all the
“and has been so during the period since the passage of the hon. Gentleman’s points. We will take back control,
European Communities Act 1972” hold that sovereignty, take our seat as an independent
is entirely consistent with what the Government themselves nation state on WTO rules, and engage in international
said in their White Paper only a few months ago. We have forums to look globally, rather than looking within Europe
been sovereign all that time. in European forums.
467 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 468
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Clause 39 relates to interpretation. This type of clause Under schedule 4, the general position will be that
is standard practice in primary legislation and contains the affirmative procedure will apply when the Bill’s core
key definitions. Subsection (1) lists items used in the Bill powers are exercised so as to modify primary legislation
with accompanying definitions, such as the relevant or retained direct principal EU legislation. Although
agreements with the EU, the EEA, EFTA and Switzerland. not all the modifications will be substantial, this approach
Given the possibility of a change in EU summer-time has been adopted given the exceptional context and the
arrangements, the clause provides for consequential uniqueness of the matters dealt with in this Bill. Clause 40
changes in the exact time of the implementation period recognises that Parliament wants a greater place in
on 31 December in the United Kingdom. Let me be scrutinising legislation.
very clear: this power cannot be used to change the time There is one exception to this rule, and it relates to
and date of the implementation period for any other the exercise of powers to make provision by regulation
purpose. The clause is fundamental to ensuring the for citizens to appeal against immigration decisions.
operation of the Bill. That exception is made to ensure such provision can be
Clause 40 and schedule 4 make further provision for made in time for 31 January, and the made affirmative
regulations to make powers under the Bill, which is of procedure is therefore adopted for that exceptional process.
interest and importance to Members of Parliament.
Schedule 4 provides for the parliamentary scrutiny Parliament has a duty to provide the British people
procedure for secondary legislation under the powers in with a functioning statute book. Clause 40 and schedule 4
the Bill. We recognise that our exit from the EU is provide essential further provision on the powers in the
momentous and Parliament will want to scrutinise any Bill, and I urge hon. Members to support their standing
changes that we make to the statute book as part of that part of the Bill.
process. As hon. Members know, consequential provisions
are standard, even in legislation of great constitutional
John Redwood: I am very much in favour of clause 38, importance. Equally, transitional provisions are a standard
which reasserts our sovereignty. If the European Union way to smooth the application of a change in the UK
wanted to legislate punitively against us during the statute book. Schedule 5 already makes many consequential
implementation period, can I take it from the Minister amendments, but there will be more. As is standard
that we would use this clause to prevent such legislation practice, we are therefore taking a power to amend
from having effect? those constitutional amendments.
I understand Members’ concerns about delegated
4 pm powers in this Bill, and I would like to allay those fears
James Duddridge: Yes. Clause 38 not only restates the and concerns today. This power is naturally constrained.
historical position but reasserts our sovereignty during It can be used only to make provisions that are consequential
the implementation period. Parliament will be given to the Bill. Transitional, transitory and saving provisions
extra powers, such as the powers being taken by the are equally standard in smoothing the introduction of a
European Scrutiny Committee, which is important because change to the statute book. As we implement the withdrawal
we will not be participants in the decision-making process. agreement, it is in everyone’s interest that we ensure
legal continuity for businesses and individuals. Again,
Sir William Cash: In a nutshell, laws are democratic schedule 5 introduces some of those measures, but we
when they are made in line with a manifesto following will need the flexibility to ensure that the withdrawal
a general election. The bottom line, therefore, is that agreement can operate smoothly and efficiently for the
decisions taken by the European Scrutiny Committee people of the UK.
on vital national interests will also go through departmental
Select Committees, and then there will be a vote on the
Floor of the House. That means this House will decide Patrick Grady: Is the European Statutory Instruments
whether it wants to obey a legislative arrangement that Committee, which operated so effectively in the last
has come out of the European Union, which is completely Parliament, expected to be re-established in this Parliament
different from anything that happened since 1972. to scrutinise statutory instruments made under this Bill?

James Duddridge: I thank the Chair of the European James Duddridge: I thank that Committee for the
Scrutiny Committee. As he knows, the powers will also work it has done, although I must admit that my focus
extend to the House of Lords, allowing for an additional has been on the work the European Scrutiny Committee
check. is doing during the implementation period. I am more
than happy to get back to the hon. Gentleman later on
Geraint Davies: Does the Minister agree that if we the specific point about the Committee he mentions. As
must have a certain level of equivalence to sustain a hon. Members will know, case law and an array of legal
reasonable level of trade, we will be obliged to accept authorities provide a very narrow scope for Governments
the EU’s changes, which will be made without our to exercise powers of these types. They are standard
consent because we will be outside the room, or else provisions to permit “housekeeping” modifications.
take the economic cost? That is not sovereignty; it is just
self-harm for the sake of opposing things. If we just
agree to the changes, what is the point of it? Dr Whitford: The Minister is talking about the delegated
powers, which are sweeping and extensive throughout
James Duddridge: If we were taking the hon. Gentleman’s this Bill. Why are the Government so reluctant to have
version of Brexit, of staying in dynamic alignment, he limitations that protect key primary legislation such as
would be right, but we are not doing that. We are taking the Human Rights Act and the devolved Acts, which
back control, so we will be an independent nation state. were just voted against by Government Members?
469 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 470
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
James Duddridge: Our withdrawal from the EU does Amendment 11 was, I believe, a probing measure to
not impinge on our human rights commitments. That allow us to discuss sovereignty. It has been a good
issue is dealt with in later new clauses. I will make some place-setter, enabling us to have a robust discussion of
more detailed comments on human rights then, but our what is meant by “sovereignty”. We have been able to
commitments to human rights are unaffected by this Bill. confirm that the UK has been able to do things while
Clause 42 provides for the extent and commencement inside the EU. We have strongly confirmed that we have
of the Bill and sets out its short title. It sets out that the felt constrained, and have been constrained, as part of
Bill will extend to England and Wales, Scotland and the EU in not disagreeing with things that have been
Northern Ireland, save for a limited number of exceptions, put through by the EU. We now have a closer understanding
with one being that section 1 extends to the Isle of Man, of what Conservative Members mean by parliamentary
the Channel Islands and Gibraltar. The European sovereignty and why we asserted ourselves during the
Communities Act currently extends to the Crown Brexit debate and the general election, which we won
dependencies and Gibraltar in a limited way. This means resoundingly.
that the saving effect of the European Communities Act
Geraint Davies: Will the Minister give way?
to allow for the implementation period must similarly
extend to these jurisdictions—in effect, we will be continuing James Duddridge: With pleasure.
as we are during the implementation period. The
Government have regularly engaged with the Crown Geraint Davies: The pleasure is all mine.
dependencies throughout the EU exit process to keep Does the Minister agree that the United States is
them apprised of developments and to provide a forum undermining the WTO by not appointing judges to the
for ongoing dialogue. That has been an important aspect appellant court? The Americans do not want a rule-based
of ensuring that this clause is fit for purpose. system; they want a power-based system—their power,
The clause also sets out which parts of the Act will and they put most of the money into the WTO. The
commence immediately at Royal Assent, and provides a body has 164 members, so the idea that on our own,
power for the Minister to commence other provisions at rather than as part of the EU bloc, we will have influence
different times by regulation. Provisions such as the in the WTO that compares to our influence by virtue of
consequential and transitional powers, and certain our population in the EU is surely not credible. We will
definitions, will commence immediately. It is also usual simply have less sovereignty.
practice for the Bill to allow provisions to be commenced
at different times through commencement regulations. James Duddridge: We will have more influence: we
This is an essential part of how the Act will come into will have influence with the Americans, who want to do
place in an orderly manner. a trade deal with us early on, and we will work with
On schedule 5, the House will remember the debates other international partners. The WTO has been of
on section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) immense value in liberalising trade, and in many ways
Act 2018 and the power to fix deficiencies in retained the EU trading within itself has been a block on the
EU law. It was written so that in the event that the UK liberalisation of global trade, although it has opened
left the EU without a deal, deficiencies arising from our out trade within the EU. I have made that point around
withdrawal would be corrected. Since that Act was Parliament and I think Members support the principle.
passed, the Government and the devolved authorities John Redwood: Let me elucidate the point. I sometimes
have laid secondary legislation under the 2018 Act and think the Opposition do not seem to understand that
other primary legislation to ensure a functioning statute we are in the WTO through the EU anyway. The whole
book on exit day in the event of no deal. We do not EU is governed by WTO rules and the WTO court, yet
want this legislation to come into force on exit day—rather, the Opposition say that we would sacrifice control by
we want to defer these bits of secondary legislation en going into the WTO. That bit of it already applies to us.
masse so that they come into effect at the end of the We will get our vote and our voice, so we will actually
implementation period. This schedule provides for the get some power.
mass deferral of this secondary legislation so that it
comes into force by reference to “IP completion day” James Duddridge: My right hon. Friend is right. I
rather than “exit day”. disagree with some of the points made by the hon.
The schedule also contains the power to make exceptions Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), but if he
to the mass deferral. It also covers the devolved Assemblies’ was right we would be suffering those problems at
use of this power, and provides for a similar deferral of distance through the EU; if indeed it was the problem
commencement, and a power to make exceptions in that he describes, it would not be a new problem.
respect of certain primary legislation made by the devolved
authorities. In addition to the provisions I have just set Geraint Davies rose—
out, the schedule also expands the consequential power
in the 2018 Act so that it can be used to make fixes in James Duddridge: I am going to make some progress
consequence of amendments that this Bill makes to that on amendment 9. I look forward to hearing the hon.
Act. A number of Acts now need to be updated to Gentleman’s speech as a trade rep; I shall listen carefully
reflect the terms of the withdrawal agreement, including to his remarks and intervene on him if that is appropriate
the implementation period. These amendments alter and helpful to the debate.
previous changes made by the 2018 Act to other legislation. The House will be aware that the Government previously
The provisions contained in this schedule are necessary published an impact assessment in support of the Bill.
to ensure the proper functioning of the statute book for It is a standard assessment of the direct costs and
the whole of the implementation period and beyond, so benefits to businesses of elements of the Bill, and is
it must stand part of this Bill. available to Parliament and the public.
471 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 472
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
The assessment is in addition to the Government’s something without giving it any power. It has no power
analysis, which was published in November 2018. It is in law, yet throughout this Bill, sweeping delegated
detailed and robust and covers a broad range of scenarios. powers are being taken from this Parliament to the
In his letter to the Treasury Committee on 21 October Executive. The Government have just voted against
last year, the Chancellor of Exchequer committed limiting those powers in the standard way that they
the Government to provide continued analysis of the were limited in the 2018 withdrawal Act to protect
appropriate points through the next stages of the things such as the Human Rights Act, the Government
negotiations. Hopefully, that will reassure the hon. Member of Wales Act, the Scotland Act and the Northern
for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire), in addition to Ireland Act. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of
the reassurance she received from my hon. Friend the State for Northern Ireland, who was at the Dispatch
Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who Box for the previous group of amendments, could not
spoke on issues of parliamentary scrutiny in the debate explain why the Government felt that they could not
on the previous group. The Government remain committed accept such limitations. That is where the concern comes,
to providing that analysis and will inform Parliament particularly on clause 21. There is no sunset clause—there
with the best analysis on which to base decisions. We is no limit. This plan to rebalance powers between the
will do so at the appropriate time, and so that it does Executive, Parliament and the courts was in the Tory
not impede our ability to strike a good deal. I do not manifesto, and we literally see it coming to life inside
think that Members of Parliament or the British public this Bill.
would want us to do otherwise. The Minister mentioned clause 5, which gives the
The British people have voted to get Brexit done and withdrawal agreement supremacy over all domestic law.
we must honour that by leaving with a deal. Fundamentally, It will not allow parliamentary scrutiny of any of the
amendment 9 is sadly another attempt to delay Brexit. changes that result from that. These sweeping, broad-brush
We do not want to test the people’s patience further by powers are concerning people. In particular, the removal
adding another step to the process, so I urge the SNP to of clause 31 of the original withdrawal agreement Bill
withdraw the amendment. An impact assessment already in its entirety means that Parliament has no voice, no
exists and is there for everyone to see. influence and no ability to set the terms or aims of the
I thank the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen future relationship, which goes way beyond any trade
Farry) for tabling amendment 35, but unfortunately we deal. Such actions are making people afraid of what is
cannot accept it. The clause recognises a principal going on. Furthermore, we have not heard any good
fundamental to our constitutional relationships: that argument from the Government as to why Parliament is
Parliament is sovereign. Nothing in the Bill derogates suddenly being excluded in this way.
from the sovereignty of Parliament, as the clause makes It is bizarre now to take this stance of “The lady doth
clear. In passing legislation to give effect to the withdrawal protest too much”and, “Oh, we all believe in parliamentary
agreement, Parliament is exercising that sovereignty. sovereignty.” In actual fact, what we see is a complete
Clause 5 is a critical component of the Bill: it provides undermining of the sovereignty of this Parliament. We
individuals and businesses with some clarity, such that also see an undermining of the sovereignty of the other
they can rely on the withdrawal agreement. It also three Parliaments in the United Kingdom. The devolved
provides for the withdrawal agreement to take priority Governments are being undermined. They also will
over domestic law where it is incompatible. That is have no influence over the future relationship. They are
consistent with parliamentary sovereignty. Parliament also having to face delegated powers being taken from
is giving effect to the priority of the withdrawal agreement. them, so that the Government can legislate on devolved
The effect of the hon. Gentleman’s amendment would areas even without the involvement of devolved Ministers.
go beyond that. It would be novel and it would bind Twenty years after devolution, this is seen as an absolute
Parliament’s hands in exercising its ability to make and power grab and an absolute attack on the devolved
unmake law. He should be assured that such an amendment Parliaments of the United Kingdom.
is entirely unnecessary, so I hope that he does not press
In amendment 9, we specifically talk about an economic
it to a vote.
impact assessment. There has not been one since 2018—and
4.15 pm that was on the Chequers agreement. Frankly, having
read the Chequers agreement, which many Members on
New clause 28 seeks to introduce a clause that would the Government Benches, including the Prime Minister,
require a further confirmatory referendum. We do not did not support, I can say that it was a complete
want any more referendums. May I gently remind the cake-and-eat-it agreement. Frankly, it was never an
right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward agreement; it was just a wish list that had no chance of
Davey)—he is not in his place, but I will send him a happening. There has been no economic impact assessment
copy of Hansard—that we have recently had a general since then, and certainly no economic impact assessment
election and we are committed to leaving the European of what this Bill will do.
Union on 31 January? I see that the hon. Member for
Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) is in her We have heard all the representatives of Northern
place. Let me apologise to her as the new clause has Ireland coming together across the divide of the
been backed by the entire Liberal Democrat Bench. I communities to ask for regular economic impact
hope that the amendment will be withdrawn or not assessments on what this Bill does to Northern Ireland.
moved. As someone from a coastal, west of Scotland constituency,
let me point out that we will be looking across at
Dr Whitford: Clause 38 addresses parliamentary Northern Ireland, which will be sitting in the single
sovereignty. Independent reviews of the clause, including market. Fishermen in my constituency are talking about
by the Library and the Institute for Government, point losing their businesses or having to register in Northern
out how completely meaningless it is. It purely states Ireland to try to compete. Our farmers will face delays
473 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 474
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Dr Whitford] understood in Government circles at that time that the
veto enabled us to retain the actuality and reality of the
at ports and may face tariffs. They will certainly face ability to make our own laws. Gradually, over the next
huge bureaucracy that farmers in Northern Ireland will 30 or 40 years, that veto was whittled away to extinction,
not face. I have two big just-in-time industries in my and the processes that I have to deal with day in, day
constituency: aerospace and pharmaceuticals. How are out in the European Scrutiny Committee—and have
we going to keep those industries, let alone attract other been doing so since I first went on the Committee in
businesses? They will look at Ayrshire and they will 1985—have demonstrated to me that, in fact, we have
look at Northern Ireland; one is in the single market not been governing ourselves. That is why I entered into
and one is not. I am sorry, but the idea that the opposition to the Maastricht treaty and then to Nice,
economic assessment that was done on the Chequers Amsterdam and ultimately Lisbon. The reality of what
deal would count for this deal and this Bill is frankly has been happening is that the individuals who sit on
complete nonsense. these green Benches have simply had their ability to
When this Government talk about their precious make the laws that they are entitled to make on behalf
Union, it is important that they respect the devolved of the people who vote for them reduced to rubble.
Governments, who are being given no locus in the In return, we have been faced with an increasingly
future relationship. The fact that the Scottish Parliament dysfunctional European Union that did not work in the
will be voting on withholding a legislative consent motion interests of the British people, and that is why we got
for this legislation was dismissed as irrelevant by the the result we did in the referendum. It was the people
Prime Minister himself at the Dispatch Box before who voted. Interestingly, when the decision was taken
Christmas. If it is so important to Members on the Tory to hold the referendum, it was decided by six to one in
Benches to preserve their precious Union, may I suggest the House of Commons. We voluntarily agreed that we
that it is a bit like a marriage? Imagine turning around would abdicate our right as Members of Parliament
and saying to the missus, “Tough, I won’t give you a and let the people of this country make that decision on
divorce”, “Tough, I don’t want to listen to you”, or their own behalf. All the resistance we have seen over
“Shut up, because I’m in charge.” Imagine saying things the past three years from the Opposition Benches and
like, “Yeah, give me half your wages” and “You can’t from a number of our recalcitrant colleagues, many of
leave me, because I bought a big 4x4 and now we have whom are no longer in the House, was based on a
an overdraft.” That is what the relationship looks like complete failure to understand that the decisions that
from Scotland. were taken in that referendum were authorised by
Parliament and, indeed, by themselves.
As the former Prime Minister and the Attorney General
both pointed out, it is not possible to maintain a union Section 1 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act
of nations that is not voluntary and that countries do 2018—I did the first draft of the Bill, which was accepted
not wish to be a part of. That has repeatedly been put by the Government—said that the European Communities
forward as a Brexit argument. You will not keep Scotland Act 1972 would be repealed on exit day. That is now in
in your precious Union with the utter disrespect that is fact implementation period day, but for practical purposes
being shown for her Government, her people and how it comes to the same thing. The Opposition religiously—or
her people voted. The Scottish National party is the irreligiously, depending on how one cares to put it—decided
party that people voted for, so repeatedly saying that the that they would oppose that Bill in principle, as they did
people of Scotland “don’t want this” and “don’t want on Second Reading and on Third Reading. Every single
that” is nonsense. If Government Members believe in Conservative, even my recalcitrant colleagues—even
democracy, they should be respecting not just the Scottish Kenneth Clarke—voted for the withdrawal Act on Third
Government, but the Scottish Parliament. They cannot Reading, but the Opposition denied not only the sovereignty
ride roughshod with delegated powers over the devolved that was being restored by the repeal of the ’72 Act but
Governments of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. the democracy that went with it. That is a fundamental
It will certainly not protect their precious Union. issue. They destroyed their credibility with the British
people, and I believe that the ordinary man in the
street—the people who voted in the last general election—
Sir William Cash: The hon. Member for Bristol West understood that.
(Thangam Debbonaire) said, “What is this sovereignty?”
I have already made the point that European laws are
It is terribly simple; it is the ability to make our own
made behind closed doors by a majority vote. Nobody
laws in our own Parliament, in accordance with the
can say that the decisions that were taken, which we had
electoral decisions taken by the people in line with a
to accept because we had no alternative, were laws
manifesto and with their constitutional arrangements,
made by our elected representatives. I have never heard
which have been in place for many generations. It is this
such trash coming from a Front Bench as the suggestion
for which people fought and died in world wars. The
that the fact that these people happen to be elected
very simple reality is that sovereignty is about whether
Members of Parliament in the Council of Ministers
or not we can govern ourselves.
conferred upon them some form of democratic right to
My rebellion against the Maastricht treaty was based decide.
on the simple proposition that that treaty created European
government. In 1971, we entered into arrangements—then Sir Iain Duncan Smith: My hon. Friend is making
enacted through the European Communities Act 1972—on absolutely the right case about sovereignty. I mentioned
the basis of a White Paper that said we would never give Van Gend en Loos and Costa v. ENEL. The point
up the veto under any circumstances, and furthermore about those two cases is that they were judicial statements.
that to do so would be not only against our own One was about direct effect and the other was about the
national interest, but contrary to the fabric of the whole idea that European law had supremacy. They were
European Community itself. Believe it or not, it was never voted on in this House. Nobody agreed to them.
475 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 476
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Nobody said, “This is what we wanted.” That led to The concern of my amendment is the rights protections
something quite interesting—the imposition of the extension under the Good Friday agreement. The Good Friday
of welfare payments to EU migrants who came here agreement is, of course, an international agreement, but
was the result of a judicial review of something that we its implementation in domestic law falls to the UK
had never voted for, and it cost us a lot of money. Government. The agreement sets out a comprehensive
set of rights, including the political participation of
Sir William Cash: That is a very good point. Those women, the right to freely choose one’s residence, freedom
cases happened before we came into the European from sectarian harassment, a statutory equality duty
Union, and they invade the very concept of the and, perhaps most significantly, the requirement for the
constitutionality of this country and of other countries incorporation of the European convention on human
too, because they say that we are obliged to obey not rights into UK domestic law.
just any law, not just all laws, but even constitutional Most of the debate in Northern Ireland and beyond
laws. That is the point. It is an utter invasion. It is a around Brexit, as it pertains to our situation, has focused
complete and total destruction of the decision of people on issues around borders, including the business community,
through the ballot box in general elections. That is the the economy, trade and what the future holds in that
problem. Sovereignty and democracy are intertwined at regard. But people are also deeply concerned about
the heart of our constitutional system. The hon. Member rights issues, for a whole range of reasons. Article 2(1)
for Bristol West ought to reflect on the rather absurd of the protocol on Northern Ireland/Ireland provides a
propositions in her speech, because she cannot prove a commitment that there will be
single point that she made. “no diminution of rights, safeguards or equality of opportunity”.
That is very much welcome, but we have seen a gradual
4.30 pm weakening of the level of commitment to rights protections
Mr Paterson: A key function of Members sent here—the since the original draft of the joint report in December
earlier Parliaments were in Shropshire, of course; it is a 2017. The European Union is very clear that it falls to
regrettable tendency that we have had them in Westminster the United Kingdom Government to ensure that the
for the last few hundred years—is that we pass supply, rights under the Good Friday agreement are protected
vote funds and are responsible for moneys raised from as part of the future relationship.
our constituents. “No taxation without representation” The specific concern that I am trying to raise through
is fundamental. The current rules are in complete breach amendment 35 is that there seems to be an inconsistency
of that. It is worth reading the National Audit Office between section 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal)
report which says that between 2005 and 2015, the EU Act 2018 and clause 38 of the Bill, which is the focus of
demanded £642 million back because of the unsatisfactory this section of our debate. Clause 38 stresses parliamentary
manner in which the last Labour Government introduced sovereignty notwithstanding section 7A, which is used
CAP reform. There was absolutely nothing that a single to give some degree of reassurance that there will not be
Member of Parliament could do by voting here to stop any threat to rights, but there is the potential that
that money being demanded from the UK Government. section 7A could be overridden in some shape or form.
There are several reasons why we have some concern in
Sir William Cash: In conclusion, I will simply say that this respect. First, not all Good Friday agreement rights
I entirely endorse what my right hon. Friend has said, as relate to the European convention itself; some are broader
indeed I endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member than what the convention contains. Some of the proposed
for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan legislative commitments apply only to Northern Ireland
Smith) said. The bottom line is that our passing of the Departments and public bodies, and do not extend as
withdrawal Act, in conjunction with the general election far as the UK Government themselves, and in that there
that we have just won, gives us back the opportunity to may well be some potential danger.
make laws on behalf of the people of this country in a There are also concerns about whether the UK
democratic, constitutional arrangement of such importance Government have, to date, fully respected some of the
that I believe it will go down as a historic moment when rights under the Good Friday agreement. As Members
the Bill’s Third Reading is passed tomorrow. will appreciate, identity is a very complex issue across
these islands, but it has been managed to date through a
Stephen Farry: I rise primarily to address amendment 35 number of different forms—for example, the common
in my name and its intersection with clause 38. I do not travel area; more recently, the Good Friday agreement;
intend to press it to a Division, but I want to highlight some and hitherto, of course, the joint membership of the
of the issues that arise from it. European Union by the United Kingdom and the Republic
More generally, on the point of parliamentary of Ireland. Up until now, both jurisdictions have moved
sovereignty, I want to make a couple of comments, as in tandem on issues involving the European Union,
other Members have, about the irony with respect to the including on matters such as the Schengen agreement,
level of delegated powers that the Bill will create, as well which the Republic of Ireland has also opted out of. We
as the lack of scrutiny of the future relationship, which are now faced with the fact that, for the first time ever,
is of particular importance to us in Northern Ireland we are going to see the UK and Ireland move in
but also, of course, for all colleagues across the United different directions in terms of the European Union.
Kingdom. The Northern Ireland/Ireland protocol, which That may well throw up a whole range of issues, challenges
is of such importance to us in Northern Ireland and has and anomalies that will need to be managed successfully.
almost bedevilled the process of Brexit for many years, Brexit strips away a lot of those protections, and
was only in effect programmed for two hours today. perhaps does create a certain degree of risk. If I may,
Many of the Northern Ireland voices were not properly I will take one example in that regard. Members may
articulated on that. well be aware of the Emma DeSouza case regarding
477 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 478
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Stephen Farry] John Redwood: Clause 38 is welcome. I pay tribute to
my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William
immigration. It drew attention to the fact that the UK Cash) for being one of the co-authors of that excellent
Government have not reflected in UK domestic law, piece of Government-proposed legislation. I also support
particularly in relation to revision of the British Nationality the Minister in opposing various new clauses and
Act 1981, the right of someone born and resident in amendments before us.
Northern Ireland to identify solely as Irish, and to have It seems to come down to the question, “What is
Irish citizenship. What the law currently says is that sovereignty?” and I think the public understand it so
anyone born in Northern Ireland is, by birth, automatically much better than many Opposition MPs seem to. The
British, and to many that goes against both the letter public fully understand that our constitution should be
and the spirit of the Good Friday agreement. based on the proposition that the public decide who
As long as that case, and indeed other situations, go should represent them in the House of Commons and
unresolved there is a latent fear of these anomalies then the House of Commons decides what laws are
persisting and, indeed, potentially growing, particularly appropriate, what taxes to raise and how to spend that
if there is greater divergence between the UK and the money, and at the end of four or five years—or sometimes
rest of the European Union, including the Republic of a shorter period—the public get to judge whether we
Ireland in particular. That has implications for what is a collectively made a good job of it or not, or whether
very complex situation, which has been managed by the there is some new configuration of Members of Parliament
Good Friday agreement—on a faltering basis over the that can make it better. So the public are ultimately
past 20 years, but none the less managed—and we may sovereign but they trust us, their elected Members, with
well be in very difficult and rocky territory. It is important their sovereignty for a period of up to five years to
that the Government reflect on some of the fears that exercise the powers of government.
are being expressed in Northern Ireland. Although I am When we first joined the European Economic
not going to press the amendment today, I think it is Community, the country was assured that that sovereignty
important that the Government reflect on the matter. —that set of powers—would not be damaged in any
way. To underwrite that promise the Government said,
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The hon. Member correctly then, that there would be no matter decided in
must of course reflect that the fact of the matter is that the European Economic Community that could be
the Republic of Ireland is an independent country in its forced on the United Kingdom against its will; we
own right. By being independent it is entitled to go its always had a veto so that if it proposed a law, a charge
own way, and if it wants to go a different way with or a tax that we did not like, we could use the veto. Over
Europe it is entitled to do that. We would not want to our years of membership, we have seen those vetoes
restrict it and say it has to come with Britain. I would be gradually reduced—those powers taken away—so that
delighted, whenever we leave the EU and Europe increases today, although we are still a full member of what is
its bill of membership to the Republic of Ireland—when now the European Union, there are huge swathes of
the Republic sees how costly it is to be a member—if policy areas where we are not free to legislate where we
those in the Republic of Ireland had a national conversation wish, or in some cases not free to legislate at all, because
about their role as Irish citizens in the EU. Ultimately, it is entirely occupied territory under the Community
however, that is a choice the Republic of Ireland has acquis.
made—that it wishes to remain within the EU—and we
should not try to restrict its hands, either. The ultimate sovereign power in the United Kingdom
today is the European Court of Justice; that is the
Stephen Farry: I am always grateful to hear comments ultimate appeal of any legal issue, and it can overrule
from my counterpart in Northern Ireland, but I think it what the two Houses of Parliament decide, it can overrule
is worth stressing for the record that there is no significant a statute, and it can strike down a law passed in this
movement or debate whatsoever in the Republic of place. It is that which a majority of the British people
Ireland about any form of “Irexit”, as it might be decided they thought was unsatisfactory. When they
framed. There is deep commitment to membership of had voted many years ago to support our continued
the European Union in the south of Ireland, as indeed membership of the European Economic Community it
there is, on a majority basis, in Northern Ireland and in was called a Common Market and misrepresented as a
Scotland and other parts of the UK as well. free trade area, which of course is rather different from
While Ireland will make its decision to remain part of a customs union with complex rules, and they were
the European Union, it is of course the UK that is given an assurance that their Parliament would still be
diverging. That debate has been had, and I recognise able to choose their taxes, spend their money and pass
the outcome in that respect. None the less, it is important their laws in the traditional way. That turned out not to
to recognise that Northern Ireland is a complex society, be true.
and it only works on the basis of sharing and The loss of those freedoms was progressive under the
interdependence. A very careful set of balanced relationships Single European Act, under the Maastricht treaty, under
has been built up over the past number of years, with the Amsterdam treaty, the Nice treaty and, above all,
the support of those on both Front Benches in this the Lisbon treaty. The Lisbon treaty was the culmination
House over that period. Brexit does potentially strip of that journey towards a very strong European
away some of the sticking-plaster over some of the Government that was superior to the United Kingdom
cracks and we do not know exactly how things will Government, and the implied substantial strengthening
work out. It is important that the Government pay of the wide-ranging powers of the European Court of
regard to, and are sensitive to, the very particular Justice, because every directive and every regulation
implications in rights terms for Northern Ireland as the that was passed—and there were thousands of them—not
Brexit process unfolds. only produced a more directly acting legal power over
479 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 480
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
our country that we could not modify or change, but penal on the United Kingdom or are damaging to our
also gave so much more extensive powers to the European commercial and economic interests, we can use that
Court of Justice because it is the ultimate arbitrator of reassertion of parliamentary sovereignty before the expiry
that body of law. of the implementation period to ensure that that particular
It is that body of law which this legislation today is law does not apply to the United Kingdom. Otherwise,
seeking to put under United Kingdom control. We have there is an invitation to anyone of bad will in the
been arguing over this for three and a half years now. European Union to think of schemes that would be
The public thought it was a very simple matter and told disadvantageous to the United Kingdom during the
us to get on with it. We had a fractious and unhelpful implementation period.
Parliament until recently, which did all in its power to On borders, where again those on the Labour Front
thwart the putting into law of the wishes of the United Bench seem surprisingly dismissive of a very important
Kingdom electors. question that has been in our debate throughout the
I hope today, after a second general election and after referendum and in subsequent general elections, I think
a referendum where the British people made it clear that there is a general view in the country, which goes well
they wished their sovereignty to rest again with them beyond Conservative voters, that there should be a fair
and be delegated to their Parliament, that the Opposition system of entry between EU and non-EU people. At
might have understood that, and might have understood the moment, the EU gets preference. I think a lot of
that currently, contrary to what we have been told by people feel that there should be some overall limitation
the Labour Front Bench, there are a very large number on the numbers of people coming in seeking low-paid
of areas where we cannot do as we please. work or speculatively seeking work. They favour some
kind of a work permit system, which is quite common
4.45 pm in many other advanced civilised countries. Because
we wish people who join us to be welcomed, because we
Let us start with the money. Yes, we wish to take back
want them to live to a decent standard and because we
control of the money. This Parliament cannot decide to
accept the commitment to pay them benefits and find
reduce the amount of money it pays to the European
them subsidised housing if that is their requirement,
Union. They decide that: they determine the bill and
surely it should be in our power to decide how many
they enforce the bill. I hope that Ministers can reassure
people we welcome in this way, and to decide that that
me that after December, at the end of the implementation
should be related to our capacity to offer them something
period, that will cease and we will only pay when there
worth while, and to our economic needs. I give way to
is an agreement between us and the European Union
my right hon. Friend, who has done so much in this
that we accept for services or joint policies that we wish
area.
to undertake as a sovereign nation. We cannot go on
accepting their hand in our pocket, taking our money Sir Iain Duncan Smith: May I just pick up on one
under their legal powers. point? My right hon. Friend talks about, “should we
I personally think it is a great pity that we have had wish to give them benefits”. The reality now is that the
such a delay to exit, because I resent the net £1 billion or British Government have to pay benefits even to families
more a month we are paying in. That will continue, I am of people working over here when their families are not
afraid, throughout this year. I would like that money for with them. That is roundly disliked across Europe, but
priorities in Wokingham and in the constituencies of those countries all accept there is nothing they can do
other colleagues here in the House of Commons. I find about it because the European Court of Justice imposed
it very odd that so many MPs are so dismissive of the that as part of freedom of movement. It was never
significance of the money, given the quite important debated as part of freedom of movement and it was
role it seemed to play in the referendum campaign and never supposed that it would happen. It is an end to
given how colleagues are normally very keen to see sovereignty when one can no longer make a decision to
increases in expenditure on public services in our country. change something like that.
They do not make the connection that if we carry on
paying very large sums to the European Union, it limits John Redwood: My right hon. Friend puts it brilliantly;
our scope to make the increases they would like. that is exactly the kind of limitation of our sovereign
It also means we do not control our own taxes, so our power, and of our freedom to make decisions that please
country cannot choose the power to tax any of our our electors, that I have been talking about. It is quite
sales; that is determined for us. It has to be the VAT tax important, given the history of this debate.
system. We had to introduce that when we joined the Turning to the Scottish nationalists, I agree with what
European Union. There are arguments for continuing the Scottish nationalist spokeswoman, the hon. Member
with some kind of VAT system, but surely we want to for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), said: we only want
decide what rate it is levied at and what items it is levied volunteers in our Union. We are democrats. We believe
on. There are quite a number of items that I think it that the Union works, but that if a significant portion
should not be levied on, where I think I would find of the Union develops a feeling that it is not working
agreement across the Committee. However, we are not for them, we need to test that. I was a strong supporter
allowed today to remove VAT from green products, for of accepting the Scottish National party idea, just a few
example, because that is against European Union rules. years ago, that there should be a referendum. That
I therefore look forward to our opportunity to shape referendum had the full support of the United Kingdom
our own taxation system as soon as we are properly out. Parliament, which is the sovereign authority for these
There is then the issue of when we actually have purposes on Union matters. I also fully agreed with the
control over our law. What I hope clause 38 will achieve then SNP leadership when I talked to them about it—I
is that if the European Union decides during the think our formal exchanges were recorded in Hansard.
implementation period to pass laws that are particularly They said that they agreed with me that whichever side
481 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 482
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[John Redwood] Geraint Davies: It is a pleasure of sorts to follow the
right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood)
lost should accept the result, and that it would be a and the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). On
“once in a generation” event, not a regular event that the issue of sovereignty and democracy, it is worth
happened every five years until one side got the answer remembering something. The basis of the 2016 referendum
that it liked. I hope that the SNP will reflect on that. We was one person, one vote, one issue, and there was a
are democrats and we want volunteers in our Union, clear majority then to leave. In 2019, we had another
but we cannot pull it up and examine it every two or vote, a general election, and had that been counted on
three years through a referendum, which is very divisive, the same basis—one person, one vote—we would have
expensive and damaging to confidence and economic had 14.5 million voting for the oven-ready Brexit on
progress. We should live with the result. offer and 16.5 million voting for a people’s vote or
remain. Obviously, that vote was on a different basis—on
Dr Whitford: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept a constituency representation basis and on a number of
that we did respect the result? We have been here for issues—and the clear decision was for a Conservative
four and a half years. We would not have been if we did Government with a majority of 80. That is clearly
not respect it; we would have been independent, and we understood, but to try to conflate the two is wrong. In
would not be being dragged over the EU cliff at the end fact, there remains a compelling case that the oven-ready
of this month. He should accept that the claim of right Brexit being railroaded through—in my view, a reckless
that Scotland has had for 331 years did not disappear in Brexit that would undermine the sovereignty, power
2014, and that his party has changed the entire fabric of and financial and trading credibility of Britain—should
the United Kingdom. It cannot continue to treat Scotland’s go back to the public for a final vote.
views with disrespect.
John Redwood: I gently remind the hon. Member that
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means during the election senior Labour people argued
(Sir Gary Streeter): Just before the right hon. Gentleman passionately that it was fine for a leave voter to vote
continues, we do not want to be dragged into a debate Labour and that they were not all in favour of what he
on Scottish independence on clause 38. Let us continue has just said, so I do not think he can say that in all
to debate these amendments and the clause. cases the Labour vote was definitely a vote for remain
or a second referendum.
John Redwood: Good advice, but I am trying to
address the SNP point related to its proposals on how Geraint Davies: To be clear, I said that the proposition
we treat devolved government fairly and whether we are was remain or public vote on the deal. The Labour
listening properly to Scotland. I think that we are very party position essentially was that the oven-ready Brexit
much listening to Scotland, but we have to understand would be bad for Britain—it would make us more
that the matter of the Union is a responsibility of the divided, weaker, poorer, more isolated and so on—and
Union Parliament, and that the matter of our membership that we could put together a better Brexit that protected
of the European Union is a responsibility of the European our jobs through trading alignment and our environment
Parliament. It is the hon. Lady’s misfortune to have and workers’ rights through dynamic alignment of those
been on the wrong side in two referendums, but there conditions.
has been a deeply democratic process in both cases, as
to whether Scotland stays in the Union and whether we The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means
stay in the EU. (Sir Gary Streeter): Order. This is very interesting, but
the hon. Gentleman is not speaking to the amendments
I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front
or the clause. His speech is more a Third Reading
Bench to remember that there is a fourth country in our
speech, for which there will be plenty of opportunity
Union: the country of England. We are very reasonable
tomorrow. If he has a speech to make on the amendments,
people, and we do not go on and on about English
we look forward to hearing it.
issues. However, when we get to this debate over how
the different parts of the United Kingdom are consulted
and respond to the issue of how we leave the EU, Geraint Davies: I apologise for responding to the
England too needs a voice within the Government and speech made on this subject by the right hon. Member
needs to be seen as an important part of the process. for Wokingham, but I will not go on about that any more.
The overwhelming vote for Brexit was an English I want to focus on clause 38, on sovereignty, and new
vote because in numbers, England is a very large part of clause 28, on whether we should have a confirmatory
the Union. That is important, just as the Scottish and referendum, which I was just talking about. I was making
Northern Irish view is. I hope that the Government will the argument, which I will stop making, Sir Gary, in
look at this machinery of government issue and make support of the proposal in new clause 28, that there was
sure that there is, within Government, a clear and a legitimate case for a confirmatory referendum on the
definitive English voice. In due course, I think that we grounds that most people voted for either remain or a
need to discuss whether this Parliament should have an second referendum and that the position of the Labour
English Grand Committee that can not only veto proposals party was to have a second referendum.
that England does not like, but make proposals that In defining sovereignty, the hon. Member for Stone
England wants, because that would do something to and others have said that having sovereignty means we
correct the obvious imbalances that make this a particularly can make all our own decisions here and that everything
difficult matter to settle, when the largest part of the will be all right. I accept that that is an idea in the minds
Union, with the overwhelming Brexit vote, is not formally of many voters, and intuitively it sounds very sensible,
represented in the discussions. but in practice is that really what would happen? I contend
483 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 484
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
that this Brexit will reduce our sovereignty and that Furthermore, the WTO will impose—as will bilateral
therefore clause 38 is misleading. At the moment, we have trading relationships with the United States—new systems
pooled sovereignty in the EU. We are one of 28 countries, of arbitration courts and panels with independent judges
but our vote is proportionate to our population. The who, unlike the European Court of Justice, are not
right hon. Gentleman suggested that things are rammed democratically elected, and who will make decisions on
through without our being consulted—that they just whether big companies can either sue us or threaten to
happen to us—but even in majority voting we have a sue us for not pursuing various activities, or will block
veto, together with others, such as Germany, for example, our legislation.
which is the biggest player and is very worried that In case there is any ambiguity, let me give an example.
when we leave it will not be able to exercise, with us, Lone Pine, the big fracking company, sued the Canadian
certain restraints and constraints on the EU. Government because Quebec had a moratorium on
Ultimately, if we have a close trading relationship fracking, saying that it would affect climate change, or
with the EU, to which after all 44% of our trade was not in the interests of the environment, or whatever
goes—from a Welsh point of view, more like 60%—we it was. We have started fracking in this country, but let
will need some level of equivalence, which will mean us suppose that the Welsh Government said that they
our having to accord with standards decided in a closed did not want fracking in Wales. If there were to be an
room without us being in that closed room. Surely, that investor-state dispute settlement tribunal, the frackers
is less sovereignty, not more. We will have to make the could come along and say “Look here, we cannot have
following decision: do we agree with something that has this, we are fracking”, and sue the British Government.
been decided without us rather than our being able to Is that sovereignty and control in any normal circumstances?
argue and block it, with Germany and others, or do we Of course it is not. Courts will be available that will fine,
want to be out of the room deciding whether to accept or threaten to fine, the British Government for passing
the rules that are coming over—and if we do not accept legislation to protect the environment and the public
them it might hinder our trade? That does not sound health of our citizens, and their intimidation will deter
like sovereignty improvement to me. future Governments from doing that.
We have introduced a sugar tax, but when that happened
5 pm in Mexico there was an attack on it through an investor-state
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): dispute settlement. If we introduce a plastics tax, we will
Will my hon. Friend tell me what definition of sovereignty be attacked for that.
he is using? It is completely confusing me. I have just
checked, and the normal definition is Sir Iain Duncan Smith rose—
“the authority of a state to govern itself ”,
Geraint Davies: This is not sovereignty; it is madness
but my hon. Friend is talking about majority voting and self-harm, on which point I will give way to the
when we might be in a minority. What is his definition right hon. Gentleman.
of sovereignty?
Sir Iain Duncan Smith: I really do not understand
Geraint Davies: What we are talking about is the what the hon. Gentleman and his Front Bench are up
freedom of this Parliament to influence the outcomes to. It is as if they are trying to rewrite the whole concept
for our electorate. [Interruption.] What I am saying, as of the world order in trade. The EU has to abide by
my hon. Friend chunters in his seat, is that we will move WTO rules just as we will when we leave—and we already
from a position in which we can influence rules that will do. There is no issue here that is going to change. WTO
be applied in Britain to one in which we cannot influence rules apply to the EU as stringently as they apply to us,
those rules, and they will still be applied. We are not and when we leave and become a voting member, they
suddenly leaving and going to the moon. will still apply to us. The difference is that if there is a
I know that there is a move on the other side for us to debate for change, we will have a vote which we do not
become semi-detached, or worse, from the EU, and to have now because we are subsidiary, underneath the
thrust ourselves into the fond arms of the WTO. However, EU. The hon. Gentleman’s argument is specious, and it
as I said to the Minister earlier, and I have had some is total nonsense.
experience of this as a trade rapporteur for the Council
of Europe at the WTO, we will end up negotiating with Geraint Davies: Well, that was very helpful.
164 countries with just one vote, not proportionate to Some hon. Members have failed to understand this.
our population—and some of those countries will be I remember the big debate over the Transatlantic Trade
dictatorships—as opposed to being in a club of 28 mature and Investment Partnership, for example, and over these
economies with a strong bargaining position within the investor-state dispute settlement clauses being used by
WTO. As I said earlier, the WTO is being undermined the Americans on fracking and other issues. Once we
by the United States, which wants its own massive are in a situation where, instead of being in the powerful
power to decide everything, rather than rules. Moreover, trading bloc of the EU, negotiating head to head with
it has existing rules that are contrary to what we are China or the United States from a position of strength
allowed to do within the EU. to sustain our environmental and workers’ rights and
We may talk of sovereignty, but if at some point in our standards, we will suddenly instead be broken free,
the future the Government of Britain wanted to return semi-detached, and turning our back on our biggest
the railways, for instance, to public ownership—I appreciate local market—[Interruption.] It is all very well for the
that the Minister may not want to do this—the WTO right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green
would be able to stop us. It also has rules about patents (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) to chunter, but that is what will
which will increase the price of drugs. I do not think happen. It is already being discussed in the trading
that “people in the street” voted for that. arrangements with the United States. The United States
485 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 486
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Geraint Davies] not sovereignty. If we cannot protect our environment,
our public health and our trade because we will be
is saying, “Right, you’re on your own now and we are under the cosh with these companies suing us through
going to have this relationship and we will enforce it the arbitration panels, that is not sovereignty. This clause
through the international tribunal.” That is what is should therefore be struck out, because it is completely
going to happen. misleading.
Let us take as an example the simple European
REACH protection—the regulations concerning the Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I actually agree
registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction with an awful lot of what the hon. Gentleman has said
of chemicals. If the right hon. Member for Chingford in terms of the construction of his argument, but his
and Woodford Green were making chemicals in Europe, conclusions are hypothesised on a trade deal that is yet
he would have to prove they were safe before marketing to be done. The important point about all this is that we
them. In the United States, he would just be able to have sovereignty over deciding what goes into the trade
market them and an environmental protection organisation deal. If we do not want to put stuff into a trade deal, it
would have to prove them harmful. That is why they sell does not matter what the investment courts say. They
asbestos in America, and that is why there will be can only adjudicate on that which is in a trade deal, and
pressure for us to have asbestos in our brake pads here. what will go into a trade deal will be decided by this
That is why there will be pressure for us to have hormone- sovereign Parliament. That is where his conclusion is
impregnated meat from America imposed on our growing completely wrong. He was putting forward quite a
children, who could then have premature pubescence. I strong argument to start with, and I do agree with it,
know that some people think that that is sovereignty, but his conclusions are completely wrong given the
but I do not. sovereignty of this Parliament.

Dr Whitford: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a Geraint Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
threat to the sugar tax is already within the trade papers for that intervention. If there has been any lack of
that have come out, registering the discussions that have clarity let me make it clear that I am saying that we are
already been happening with the US? The sheer threat in the EU at the moment and obviously do lots of trade
of a Government, whether a devolved Government or with the EU—44% of it—and we do quite a lot of trade
this one here, being dragged through an investor-state through the EU indirectly with America and elsewhere,
dispute settlement can create a fear of public health so we are in a reasonable position. If we come out of the
measures such as the one we have in Scotland on the EU and suddenly find that we need to make up for lost
minimum unit pricing on alcohol, which this Parliament trade, we will be under a lot of pressure to do a deal
have not got round to. They might find that they quickly with the US. We will also be in a much weaker
struggle to get round to it in the future because they position, because we will be standing alone.
would be challenged, which would threaten the public The US is a big player and knows it, so it will try to
health of everyone in the United Kingdom. get what it wants, as has been pointed out on sugar,
fracking and other examples. What is more, it has ISDS
Geraint Davies: The hon. Lady makes an excellent powers as part of its normal bilateral trading agreements,
point about the chilling effect of that overhanging threat. and that is already recorded in trading relations. The
Let us be clear on the specifics. Lots of people talk idea suggested by the hon. Member for Wyre Forest
about the impact of this on our health service and (Mark Garnier), which I respect, is that we could in
about the Americans arriving and taking our data and theory say, “No, we don’t want this. We won’t go ahead
privatising the health service. But apart from that, let us with that.” but there would be a huge economic cost.
think about the public health impact of these changes There would also be enormous pressure, while doing all
in relation to sugar. The NHS spends £12 billion a year these other trade deals, to agree.
on diabetes— The assumption is that we could just carry on as
before with all the other bilateral trading agreements
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means with small countries such as Chile. If you were Chile,
(Sir Gary Streeter): Order. I understand that the hon. Sir Gary, you would think, “Hold on. Instead of negotiating
Gentleman is trying to link this to the overall concept of with the big EU, I’m now negotiating with a relatively
sovereignty, but he is now talking about future trade smaller UK, so I want a better deal.” Therefore, our
deals rather than about clause 38 of the Bill and sovereignty. sovereignty, in terms of our power to deliver what our
I would just encourage him to come back to the clause. electorate wants, is reduced. Our sovereignty has therefore
been intrinsically undermined, rather than enhanced,
Geraint Davies: I am grateful for your guidance. which is contrary to what is being spun out here.
I guess the point is that sovereignty is about our
ability to make laws here without intimidation or Ian Paisley: The hon. Member speaks as if trade is all
interference, but that we could find ourselves outside one way. One of Germany’s biggest trading partners is
the EU and no longer able, for example, to introduce a the United Kingdom. Does he think that it wants to go
tax on sugar that would reduce the cost of obesity to down the road he is describing? The Germans will want
the NHS. We could have a situation where we want to to ensure that they continue to have a good trading
let people know that there are six teaspoonfuls of sugar relationship with the United Kingdom no matter whether
in a Müller Light yoghurt and nine in a Coca-Cola, and Britain is within or outside the EU.
we want to drive down sugar content in order to drive
down diabetes and health costs. Instead, we could be The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means
fined because the projection of a manufacturer of a (Sir Gary Streeter): I call Geraint Davies to talk on
sugar-impregnated product was less than that. That is sovereignty and clause 38.
487 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 488
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Geraint Davies: That is very helpful. Let us get this as the European Union calls them, meaning that the
point clear. Something like 44% of our trade goes to the EU would make the rules in certain areas and Parliament
EU, so it is enormously important to us. However, less would simply provide the rubber stamp through direct
than 5% of the EU’s trade overall comes to the UK. effect and regulations. Therefore, when an individual
There is a balance of power, and it is the case that two rule was made that we did not like, there was very little
EU countries—the Netherlands and Germany—have a that Members could do about it. They could, of course,
significant trade surplus with the UK, but the others do revoke their consent for the entire scheme and repeal
not. The EU will quite reasonably, as a bloc, want to the 1972 Act, which is what we have now done, but they
protect its standards, its environment and its workers’ could not revoke on an individual basis.
rights and not be undercut. That consent came from this House. The reason
We have seen that already in terms of sovereignty, clause 38 is so important is that a different period is
because we want a better environment, but the Government about to commence. Since 1972, all the way up to 2019,
have already decided to withdraw from the carbon Parliament has consented to the rule-making powers
trading system, so we will have our own carbon tax. and machinery of the European Union through the
However, my understanding of the Government proposal European Communities Act. Once we are out of the
for the carbon emissions tax is that we will charge £16 a implementation period, all the rules that affect the people
tonne and the EU will tax £25 a tonne. In other words, we govern will be made in this House. We will make
we are already becoming a sort of pollution dumping promises when we stand for election; we will implement
ground. The more we diverge negatively away from the them to the best of our abilities; and then we will stand
EU, the less we will be able to trade and the more we on that record. Every point is subsidiary to that. Everything
will be in the hands of the US, the Chinese or whoever. we have heard about future trade deals will follow on
That is not sovereignty; that is just being in the hands of from the principle of sovereignty and the direct democratic
others. accountability that happens in this House when we stand
I accept your guidance, Sir Gary, and I think I have for election, when we speak and when we return. That
made my point. We will be poorer, weaker and more will not be the case, however, during the implementation
divided. This is not about sovereignty. This is about the period.
abdication of sovereignty, and I deeply regret it.
Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP):
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): It is an honour to take I ask the hon. Gentleman to imagine a scenario in
part in this debate with you in the Chair, Sir Gary. which the United Kingdom has a trade deal with America
I want to make a few brief comments on clause 38. I and this Parliament decides that it is going to say no to
want to say a word or two about parliamentary sovereignty genetically modified or hormone-treated beef. How free
and why the clause is necessary. We have heard the and how sovereign does he think this Parliament will be
phrase “parliamentary sovereignty” a lot recently. It is in such a scenario? It will not be.
much used and much misused. Although it is certainly a
subject for debate, it can essentially be understood to Robert Courts: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
mean that this place is the supreme law-making body in for his intervention, because he illustrates precisely the
the country. It makes the law and cannot bind its point I am trying to make, which is about the nature of
successors, so the law can be changed. The law is made sovereignty. Sovereignty is held in this place, which
after an election, at which we stand on the basis of a set makes the law and is the superior governing body. If
of promises. We then enact those promises, and at the there is a trade deal with the United States, the electorate
following election, the electorate judge how well we will have a chance at the next election to have their say
have performed and whether we have kept those promises, on whether they agree with it. If the hon. Gentleman’s
and then they make a judgment at the ballot box or any other party wishes to change it, they can say so in
accordingly. their manifesto and stand for election accordingly. If elected,
they will be able to enter negotiations to change it.
5.15 pm
That principle has been affected significantly by European Angus Brendan MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is
Union membership. I will address the effect of the ECJ. being very generous in giving way; I am grateful to him.
The Factortame case in 1989 meant that, for the first Of course, a trade agreement requires a dispute resolution
time, an Act of Parliament—the Merchant Shipping mechanism, and we currently have the European Court
Act 1988 in that case—could be disapplied if it was of Justice. When and if there is a trade deal with
incompatible with European Union law. The second America, the dispute resolution mechanism will give
major case is Van Gend en Loos, which established the away sovereignty and we will be back to square one.
principle of direct effect—as opposed to direct
applicability—whereby the rights enshrined in European Robert Courts: No, that is a misunderstanding of the
Union treaties could be enforced by European Union nature of a trade dispute body. Every treaty has to have
citizens without recourse to Parliament. That has a some sort of dispute resolution—the hon. Gentleman is
serious impact on sovereignty, because it means that quite right about that. If there is a trade deal with the
rules are being made outwith the procedure of this United States or any other body, there will of course be
House. a trade dispute resolution, but it will adjudicate on the
Labour Front Benchers are academically correct to terms of the agreement approved in this House. The
say that parliamentary sovereignty has continued since major difference with the ECJ is the one to which I have
1972, because it has always been possible for this House already referred: its judicial activism. It creates law that
to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, which is is over and above and has to be applied by this House,
what we have now decided to do. In essence, Parliament whereas when law is made by our domestic judges, this
decided to hand over, wholesale, spheres of competence, House can enact legislation to override it.
489 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 490
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Dr Whitford: Does the hon. Gentleman recognise In fact, the Bill represents a power grab, first from the
that investor dispute-settlement resolution systems in devolved Assemblies, by taking back the right to legislate
existing treaties are very one-sided? They allow private without their consent. The Bill is an example of that. As
business to sue the Government, but do not allow we speak, the Scottish Parliament is withholding its
Governments to sue business for deaths from smoking, consent for the Bill, but this House will ride roughshod
pollution or other damage that they have caused. over it tonight and tomorrow. This is also a power grab
by the Executive, because sweeping Henry VIII powers
Robert Courts: We are certainly getting into the technical are included in the Bill and in accompanying Brexit
detail, which is exactly what we should do at this stage. legislation that has already been passed.
The hon. Lady ignores the independent element that The Brussels bureaucrats—that favourite hit of the
takes place in any such independent arbitration mechanisms Maastricht rebels—are being replaced by the new one-hit
in interrnational trade organisations. wonder of the Whitehall mandarins, except it will be
one hit for the rest of time if this Parliament does not
Geraint Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
stand in the way of what the Executive are trying to do.
Robert Courts: I will not—I have taken a number of In fact, we are not restoring anything great here. I
interventions and have made my point. I will conclude simply would be interested in an answer from the Minister at
with why clause 38 is necessary and why amendment 11 some point on whether the European Statutory Instruments
misses the point. Committee will be reconvened in this Parliament. It was
one of the achievements of the European Union
Parliament consented to the European Union’s
(Withdrawal) Act 2018 to enshrine that Committee in
lawmaking structures while we remained members of
statute for the lifetime of the previous Parliament, so let
the European Union. That consent will be withdrawn when
us see the Committee come back if scrutiny and sovereignty
the 1972 Act is repealed and we are in the implementation
are so important to this Government.
period. We do not want to be forced into a dynamic
alignment in which rules that we have no say over are This place will be diminished in its powers and
passed. We need to make it clear that Parliament retains sovereignty, and in due course, it will be reduced in its
the right to disagree and diverge from those rules if it numbers because 59 Scottish MPs will not be sitting
wishes. For those reasons, the clause is entirely accurate here anymore when Scotland’s power and sovereignty
and needed, and the amendment simply misunderstands are restored to its Parliament, which will be very happy
that. to share them with its continental neighbours as a
member of the European Union.
Patrick Grady: I have enjoyed sitting here for the past
couple of hours watching the Maastricht rebels’ farewell Thangam Debbonaire: As the Minister cleverly spotted,
reunion tour, although it appears that they are getting amendment 11 is a probing amendment. We have explored
some young recruits. Fair play to them; they have been the concept of sovereignty extensively, so I beg to ask
trying for 40 years and think that they will achieve what leave to withdraw the amendment.
they have always wanted. I feel slightly sorry for them Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
because I do not know what they will do after 31 January. Clauses 38 to 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
We heard all the greatest hits: “Supreme lawmaking Schedule 4 agreed to.
body,” “Brussels bureaucrats,” “Common Market,” “No Clause 41 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
taxation without representation,” and of course the Schedule 5 agreed to.
platinum hit, “Parliamentary sovereignty,” which has
Clause 42 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
been enshrined in the Bill for absolutely no reason at all,
as was said by the hon. Member for Bristol West
(Thangam Debbonaire) and my hon. Friend the Member New Clause 2
for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford).
PROTECTING WORKERS’ RIGHTS
As the hon. Member for Witney (Robert Courts)
touched on, as far as the UK constitution is concerned, ‘(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to secure an
agreement with the European Union that achieves the following
Parliament has shared and will continue to share its outcomes—
sovereignty. The devolution settlement effectively did
(a) that the United Kingdom will not introduce any
that by recognising the desire of the people of Scotland, measure which would have the effect of reducing in
Wales and Northern Ireland and other regional Assemblies. any way the protection provided by any Retained EU
Power has been devolved from this place, and are we Worker Rights after IP completion day;
not all grateful for that? The notion of restoring (b) that the United Kingdom shall take all steps necessary
parliamentary sovereignty is completely unnecessary to ensure that, from exit day, all Retained EU Worker
and is a total showpiece in the Bill. Power has always Rights will continue to have at least the same level of
been shared across the European Union and across the protection in the United Kingdom as is applicable in
United Kingdom. other Member States;
The right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) (c) that where, after IP completion day, the European
appears to be a reborn federalist. Perhaps that could Union brings into force or effect any New EU Workers’
Rights, the result and legal consequences in the United
be a new solo career now that the band is coming to Kingdom of those New EU Workers’ Rights shall be
the end of its tour. I will happily join him in further the same as if those New EU Workers’ Rights had
devolution and the assertion of federalism across the been Workers’ Rights brought into force and effect by
United Kingdom, if that is what he wants to do. He the European Union before IP completion day;
should be worried, however, because parliamentary (d) that those parts of the Treaties which, before IP completion
sovereignty is not being restored by the clause or the day, provide for any matter concerning the interpretation
Bill as a whole. of Workers Rights in any part of the United Kingdom
491 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 492
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
to be determined by the Court of Justice of the “Exit day” shall have the same meaning as in the
European Union shall continue to apply to the United European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
Kingdom or such part of the United Kingdom to the “IP completion day” shall have the same meaning as in
same extent after IP completion day; the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement)
(e) that after IP completion day, the procedural rules, Act 2020.”—(Nick Thomas-Symonds.)
including limitation periods, rules of courts and tribunals
This new clause would require the Government to negotiate a
and remedies, governing actions for safeguarding New
comprehensive agreement with the EU protecting workers’ rights.
EU Workers’ Rights and Retained EU Worker Rights
in the United Kingdom shall continue to be no less Brought up, and read the First time.
favourable than the procedural rules governing similar
actions under United Kingdom law; Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): I beg to move,
(f) that nothing in this clause shall prevent the United That the clause be read a Second time.
Kingdom from introducing amendments to Workers’
Rights for the purpose of making such provisions TheFirstDeputyChairmanof WaysandMeans(SirGeorge
more favourable to the protection of workers;
Howarth): With this it will be convenient to discuss:
(g) that the terms at (a) to (f) shall have direct effect and
shall be recognised and available in law and be New clause 3—Future relationship: Customs Union
capable of enforcement by individuals and their trade and Single Market—
unions in courts and tribunal. “(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to secure an
(2) Subsections (3) and (4) cease to apply if the Government agreement with the European Union that achieves the following
has secured an agreement with the European Union that achieves outcomes—
the objective in subsection (1). (a) a permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs
(3) A Minister of the Crown must make an oral statement to union involving alignment with the Union customs
the House of Commons on the objective in subsection (1)— code, a common external tariff and an agreement on
(a) within three months of this Act coming into force; commercial policy that includes a UK say on future
(b) at least as frequently as every 28 days thereafter. EU trade deals;
(4) Each statement made under subsection (3) must set out— (b) close alignment with the single market, underpinned
by shared institutions and obligations, with clear
(a) the steps taken by the Government, and the progress
arrangements for dispute resolution;
made in negotiations with the European Union, for
the purpose of achieving the objective in subsection (c) dynamic alignment on rights and protections so that
(1); and UK standards keep pace with evolving standards
(b) whether in the Minister’s opinion an agreement with across the EU as a minimum;
the European Union achieving the objective of subsection (d) UK participation in EU agencies and funding programmes;
(1) is likely to be achieved by IP completion day and, and
if not, setting out the reasons for this. (e) Close cooperation on security including access to the
(5) For the purpose of this section— European Arrest warrant and databases such as
“New EU Worker Right” means any Workers’ Rights— EUROPOL and SIS II.”
(a) which Member States are obliged to confer by New clause 8—Maintaining the UK’s place in the
an EU directive published in the Official Single Market and Customs Union—
Journal of the European Union on or after IP
completion day; or “(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to maintain the
(b) that are conferred by an EU regulation or other United Kingdom’s status within the Single Market and Customs
instrument published in the Official Journal of Union of the European Union within the framework of the
the European Union on or after IP completion future relationship between the United Kingdom and European
day; or Union.
(c) that arise out of a judgment of the Court of (2) A Minister shall lay before each House of Parliament a
Justice of the European Union on or after IP progress report on aims noted in subsection (1).”
completion day; This new clause ensures that the UK Government will negotiate for
and shall include any improvement to a Workers’ Right which the maintenance of the United Kingdom’s membership of the single
existed before IP completion day; market and customs union.
“Retained EU Worker Rights” means Workers’ Rights New clause 10—Implementation period negotiating
which— objectives: Erasmus+—
(a) immediately before IP completion day, the
United Kingdom was obliged to confer by “(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to secure an
virtue of the Treaties and the EU directives agreement within the framework of the future relationship of the
listed in Schedule 1, or which were, without UK and the EU before the end of the implementation period that
further enactment, given legal effect in the enables the UK to participate in all elements of the Erasmus+
United Kingdom; and programme on existing terms after the implementation period
ends (“the Erasmus+ negotiations”).
(b) on IP completion day, continued to have effect
in any part of the United Kingdom; (2) A Minister shall lay before each House of Parliament a
“Workers’ Rights” means rights of individuals, classes progress report on the Erasmus+ negotiations within six months
of individuals and their trade unions, in all areas of this Act being passed.”
of labour protection including— This new clause would require the Government to seek to negotiate
(a) fundamental rights at work, including all forms continuing full membership of the EU’s Erasmus+ education and
of discrimination; youth programme.
(b) fair working conditions and employment New clause 16—Economic impact assessment—
standards;
(c) information and consultation rights; “(1) A Minister of the Crown must—
(d) restructuring of undertakings and acquired rights; (a) lay before each House of Parliament and
and (b) submit to the Presiding Officers of each devolved
(e) health and safety at work. legislature
493 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 494
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
a comprehensive economic impact assessment of potential (a) make a statement to the effect that in the Minister’s
outcomes arising from the conclusion of negotiations on the view the provisions of the Bill are not intended to
future relationship with the EU. have, and are not reasonably likely to have, a regressive
(2) An assessment under subsection (1) must include— effect, or
(b) make a statement that although provisions of the Bill
(a) an analysis by NUTS1 and NUTS2 regions of the
are intended to have, or are reasonably likely to have,
United Kingdom including (but not limited to)—
a regressive effect, the Government nevertheless
(i) impact on employment as both a nominal figure wishes the House to proceed with the Bill.
and percentage, and
(2) If the Bill relates to environmental law—
(ii) impact on Gross Value Added;
(a) in preparing the statement the Minister must—
(b) a sectoral analysis including but not limited to (i) consult the Office for Environmental Protection
agriculture, health and social care, manufacturing, (“OEP”); and
the aerospace industry, and financial services.” (ii) publish their response, and
This new clause would require the Government to produce an (b) if the OEP’s response asserts that provisions of the Bill
economic impact assessment on the future relationship negotiated are reasonably likely to have a regressive effect on
with the European Union. environmental law, that response must also suggest
New clause 20—UK-EU trade agreement: mutual how to avoid that effect.
recognition and standards— (3) A Minister who makes a statement under subsection (1)(b)
“(1) The Government must, during and after the implementation must also—
period, seek as part of any future trade agreement between the (a) publish the reasons for including in the Bill provisions
United Kingdom and the European Union mutual recognition, that are intended, or reasonably likely, to have a
adequacy or deemed equivalence arrangements across all product regressive effect (“regressive provisions”);
regulations and standards covered by the agreement in the following (b) arrange for a motion to be moved in the House of
areas— Commons, before the Bill leaves that House, for a
(a) goods, resolution that the House approves the inclusion of
regressive provisions; and
(b) services,
(c) arrange for a motion to be moved in the House of
(c) data protection, Lords, before the Bill leaves that House, for a
(d) environmental standards, resolution that the House approves the inclusion of
(e) labour standards, regressive provisions.
(f) professional qualifications, and 14C Subordinate legislation
(g) any other technical regulations or standards which it ‘(1) Regulations under this Act are unlawful if and to the
seeks to negotiate. extent that they are intended to have, or in practice are
reasonably likely to have, a regressive effect.
(2) Nothing in any trade agreement between the United
(2) A statutory instrument under any other Act which is made
Kingdom and the European Union shall prevent Parliament
for the purposes of or in connection with the withdrawal of the
from enacting laws and setting technical regulations and
UK from the EU is unlawful if and to the extent that it is
standards within the United Kingdom.
intended to have, or in practice is reasonably likely to have, a
(3) “Technical regulations or standards” shall include any law, regressive effect.
regulation or administrative action that affects the trade of 14D Other action by public authorities
goods, including agrifood and agricultural goods, including those
covered by the World Trade Organisation’s Technical Barriers to ‘(1) Any action taken by or on behalf of a Minister of the
Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organisation’s Sanitary Crown under this Act is unlawful if and to the extent that it is
and Phyto-Sanitary Agreement.” intended to have, or in practice is reasonably likely to have, a
regressive effect.
This new clause would mandate the Government to seek mutual
(2) Any action taken by or on behalf of a Minister of the
recognition, adequacy or deemed equivalence arrangements on
Crown for the purposes of or in connection with the withdrawal
standards to be included in the future trade relationship, while
of the UK from the EU is unlawful if and to the extent that it is
preserving the right of Parliament to set laws and standards in
intended to have, or in practice is reasonably likely to have, a
the UK.
regressive effect.
New clause 27—Non-regression from EU standards— (3) A public authority exercising a function in respect of a
“(none) After section 14 (financial provision) of the European protected matter must not exercise the function in a way that is
Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 insert— intended to have, or in practice is reasonably likely to have, a
‘14A Interpretation: “regressive” regressive effect.
14E Guidance
(1) In this section and sections 14B to 14D “regressive” means—
‘(none) The Secretary of State must publish guidance for
(a) reducing the level of protection provided by retained government departments and other public authorities designed
EU law in respect of a protected matter (specified in to ensure and facilitate the avoidance of action that would be
subsection (2)), or unlawful by virtue of sections 14B to 14D.
(b) weakening governance processes associated with 14F Divergence tracking
retained EU law in respect of a protected matter
(specified in subsection (2)). ‘(1) In this section “divergence report” means a report
containing—
(2) The protected matters are— (a) a summary of new EU environmental laws;
(a) the environment; (b) a summary of steps taken by the Government in
(b) food safety and other standards; relation to the issues addressed by those laws;
(c) the substance of REACH regulations; and (c) a summary of steps taken by the Government as set
out in previous divergence reports;
(d) animal welfare.
(d) an independent review identifying any divergence
14B Primary legislation between UK law and EU law in respect of those
‘(1) A Minister of the Crown in charge of a Bill in either issues and recommending action to remedy the
House of Parliament must, before Second Reading of the Bill— divergence;
495 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 496
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(e) a statement of action Ministers propose to take; and (c) participation in EU agencies and funding programmes,
(f) if Ministers do not propose to give effect to the including for the environment, education, science,
recommendations of the independent review, the and industrial regulation.
reasons for that. (2) A Minister of the Crown shall lay before each House of
(2) The Secretary of State must publish a divergence report— Parliament a progress report on each of the outcomes listed in
(a) within the period of 6 months beginning with the date subsection (1) (a) to (c) within 4 months of this Act being passed,
of commencement of this section; and and subsequently at intervals of no more than 2 months.”
(b) during each subsequent period of 6 months. This new clause would require the UK Government to seek close
alignment with the EU single market on key level playing-field
(3) The Secretary of State must— provisions such as workers’ rights and environmental and consumer
(a) prepare each divergence report in consultation with standards and protections as part of its negotiations for the future
persons appearing to the Secretary of State to relationship with the EU.
represent the interests of businesses, workers, public
bodies and relevant non-governmental organisations;
New clause 30—Maintaining the UK’s place in the
Single Market and Customs Union—
(b) publish each divergence report;
(c) lay it before Parliament; and “(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to maintain the
United Kingdom’s status within the Single Market and Customs
(d) arrange for a motion to be moved in each House of Union of the European Union within the framework of the
Parliament, within the period of 28 sitting days future relationship between the United Kingdom and European
beginning with the first sitting day after the date of Union.
publication of the report, for a resolution that the
House approves the divergence report. (2) A Minister of the Crown shall lay before each House of
Parliament a progress report on the objective in subsection (1)
(4) If a Committee of the House of Lords, or a Joint within 4 months of this Act being passed, and subsequently at
Committee of the House of Lords and the House of Commons, intervals of no more than 2 months.”
publishes a report relating to matters to be considered in a
divergence report, the divergence report must contain Ministers’ This new clause would require the UK Government to seek to keep
response to the Committee report. the UK in the Single Market and the Customs Union as part of its
negotiations for the future relationship with the EU.
(5) If a motion in either House for the approval of a
divergence report is not passed unamended, a Minister of the New clause 31—UK participation in the European
Crown must as soon as reasonably practicable publish a report— medicines regulatory network—
(a) setting out the steps that Ministers intend to take to “(1) It shall be the objective of an appropriate authority to
rectify any divergence between UK law and EU law take all necessary steps to implement an international trade
in respect of environmental matters, and agreement which enables the UK to fully participate after exit
(b) including, in particular, legislative proposals designed day in the European medicines regulatory network partnership
to remedy the divergence, together with a timetable between the European Union, European Economic Area and the
and strategy for enacting the legislation. European Medicines Agency.
(6) In this section “independent review” means a review (2) ‘Exit day’ shall have the meaning set out in section 20 of
undertaken by a body established by regulations made by the the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
Secretary of State for the purpose of reviewing new EU law and (3) A Minister of the Crown shall lay before each House of
giving independent advice to Ministers about divergence. Parliament a progress report on the objective in subsection (1)
(7) Regulations under subsection (6)— within 4 months of this Act being passed, and subsequently at
(a) may include provision about the membership, funding intervals of no more than 2 months.”
and proceedings of the body; This new clause would require the UK Government to seek to
(b) may confer appointment and other functions on the maintain participation in the European medicines regulatory
Secretary of State or another specified person; network as part of its negotiations for the future relationship with
the EU.
(c) may include incidental, supplemental, consequential
and transitional provisions; New clause 32—Maintaining the UK’s membership of
(d) must be made by statutory instrument; and Euratom—
(e) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before, “(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to maintain the
and approved by resolution of, each House of United Kingdom’s membership of the European Atomic Energy
Parliament. Community within the framework of the future relationship
between the United Kingdom and European Union.
(8) Provision about membership of the body under subsection
(7)(a) must, in particular, aim to ensure the inclusion of (2) A Minister of the Crown shall lay before each House of
individuals who are independent of the government and have Parliament a progress report on the objective in subsection (1)
relevant knowledge and experience including expertise in within 4 months of this Act being passed, and subsequently at
environmental law’”” intervals of no more than 2 months.”.
This new clause aims to prevent of substantive regression from EU This new clause would require the UK Government to seek to
standards in legislation after leaving the EU. maintain the UK’s membership of Euratom as part of its
negotiations for the future relationship with the EU.
New clause 29—Implementation period negotiating
objectives: level playing-field— New clause 35—Implementation period negotiating
objectives: security partnership—
“(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to secure an
agreement within the framework of the future relationship of the “(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to secure an
UK and EU to secure agreements that achieve the following agreement within the framework of the future relationship of the
outcomes— UK and EU to secure agreements that achieve the following
outcomes—
(a) close alignment with the European Union single market,
underpinned by shared institutions and obligations, (a) continued UK participation in the European Arrest
with clear arrangements for dispute resolution; Warrant,
(b) dynamic alignment on rights and protections for (b) continued UK membership if Europol and Eurojust,
workers, consumers and the environment so that UK and
standards at least keep pace with evolving standards (c) continued direct access for UK agencies to the following
across the EU as a minimum, and; EU data-sharing tools—
497 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 498
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(i) the Second Generation Schengen Information System This new clause requires each devolved legislature to give legislative
(SIS II), consent to any trade deal affecting the National Health Service.
(ii) the European Criminal Records Information System New clause 46—Impact assessment—
(ECRIS),
(iii) the Prüm Decisions, ‘(none) The Government must publish undertake equality,
environmental and economic impact assessments, by each region
(iv) Passenger Name Record (PNR), and
of the United Kingdom, on any proposed future relationship
(v) the Europol Information System (EIS). or Free Trade Agreement, before initiating legislation to
(2) A Minister of the Crown shall lay before each House of implement any such proposed future relationship or Free Trade
Parliament a progress report on each of the outcomes listed in Agreement.”
subsection (1) (a) to (c) within 4 months of this Act being passed,
This new clause requires the publication of regional equality,
and subsequently at intervals of no more than 2 months.”
environmental and economic impact assessments of any proposed
This new clause would require the UK Government to seek a future relationship or Free Trade Agreement.
comprehensive security partnership as part of its negotiations for
the future relationship with the EU. New clause 48—Maintaining the UK’s membership of
Horizon 2020 and future Horizon programmes—
New clause 38—Independent review of the impact of
withdrawal— ‘(none) It shall be an objective of the Government to maintain
the United Kingdom’s membership of Horizon 2020 and its
“(1) The Secretary of State must arrange for an independent successor programmes within the framework of the future
review of the impact of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from relationship between the United Kingdom and European
the EU in relation to each of the following periods— Union.”
(a) the initial one-year period, and
This new clause would require the Government to seek to negotiate
(b) each subsequent three-year period. continuing full membership of the EU’s Horizon 2020 research
(2) A review must be completed as soon as practicable after the programme and its successor programmes, such as Horizon Europe.
end of the period to which the review relates. New clause 49—UK citizens resident in the EU: protection
(3) The review must consider the impact of the United of rights—
Kingdom’s withdrawal from the EU on—
“(1) The Secretary of State must make arrangements to
(a) the economy of the United Kingdom,
preserve, as far as is possible, the United Kingdom’s obligations
(b) national security, under EU law to British citizens who are resident in any EEA
(c) climate change and the environment, country, or in Switzerland, on the day before IP completion day.
(d) human rights, and (2) The arrangements in subsection (1) must include—
(e) social and economic rights. (a) arrangements for people in receipt of a United
(4) As soon as practicable after a person has carried out a Kingdom state retirement pension to continue
review in relation to a particular period, the person must— receiving that pension under the same uprating and
(a) produce a report of the outcome of the review, and other arrangements as apply on the day on which this
(b) send a copy of the report to the Secretary of State. Act is passed, for the rest of their lifetimes as long as
they remain resident in any other EEA country, or in
(5) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of Switzerland,
Parliament a copy of each report sent under subsection (4)(b).
(b) arrangements for British citizens to continue receiving
(6) The Secretary of State may— the same level of publicly-provided healthcare as they
(a) make such payments as the Secretary of State thinks do currently as EU citizens.
appropriate in connection with the carrying out of a
review, and (3) The duty in subsection (1) applies whether or not the
United Kingdom reaches any relevant reciprocal arrangements
(b) make such other arrangements as the Secretary of with other EEA member states, or with Switzerland.”
State thinks appropriate in connection with the
carrying out of a review (including arrangements for This new clause requires the Government to take steps to preserve
the provision of staff, other resources and facilities). the rights of UK citizens living in the EU, including continuing to
uprate UK state pensions for Britons living in the EU and paying
(7) In this section—
for publicly-provided healthcare.
“initial one-year period” means the period of one year
beginning on the day following exit day as defined New clause 50—EU Charter of Fundamental Rights
in section 20(1) of the European Union impact assessment—
(Withdrawal) Act 2018; “A Minister of the Crown must, on or before 30 June 2020,
“subsequent three-year period” means a period of publish a comprehensive impact assessment of the effect of
three years beginning with the first day after the removing the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights from domestic
most recent of— law.”
(a) the initial one-year period, or This new clause would provide that the UK Government commits to
(b) the most recent subsequent three-year period.” conducting and publishing an impact assessment of the effect of
This new clause would require the Government to publish regular removal of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights (by virtue of
independent reports on the impact of Brexit. section 5(4) of the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018).
New clause 45—NHS protection and devolved New clause 51—Protection for workers’ rights—
legislatures— “(1) After section 18 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act
“(1) Any provision relating to the National Health Service 2018 (customs arrangement as part of the framework for the
within a trade deal shall not be made without consultation with, future relationship) insert—
and only after publication of a legislative consent memorandum ‘18A Protection for workers’ rights
from, each of the relevant devolved legislatures.
(1) Part 1 of Schedule 5A (which requires statements of
(2) For purposes of this Part, ‘relevant devolved legislatures’ non-regression in relation to workers’ retained EU rights) has
means— effect.
(a) the Northern Ireland Assembly,
(2) Part 2 of Schedule 5A (which provides for reporting
(b) Scottish Parliament, and requirements and parliamentary oversight in relation to new EU
(c) the National Assembly for Wales.” workers’ rights) has effect.
499 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 500
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(3) Part 3 of Schedule 5A (which contains interpretative (a) extends to England and Wales or Scotland (or
provision) has effect.’ both), and
(2) After Schedule 5 to the European Union (Withdrawal) (b) relates to any of the workers’ retained EU
Act 2018 (publication and rules of evidence) insert the rights;
Schedule 5A set out in Schedule (Protection for workers’ rights) “relevant part of the United Kingdom”, in relation to
to this Act.” a Bill, means—
This new clause reinstates what was Clause 34 and Schedule 4 of (a) England and Wales, if the Bill extends there;
the EU Withdrawal Agreement Bill (Bill 7) in the October- (b) Scotland, if the Bill extends there;
December 2019 Session and provides additional procedural “second House of Parliament”, in relation to a Bill,
protections for workers rights that currently form part of EU law, means the House of Parliament to which the Bill
but which would not be protected against modification, repeal or moves after completing its passage through the
revocation in domestic law once the transition or implementation first House of Parliament.
period has ended.
New clause 59—Representation in the European PART 2
Parliament—
“(1) It must be a negotiating objective of the United Kingdom NEW EU WORKERS’ RIGHTS
Government to seek to secure ongoing and formal representation Reports on new EU workers’ rights
in the European Parliament, at not less than observer status, for 2 (1) As soon as practicable after the end of each reporting
the devolved nations and regions of the UK. period, the Secretary of State must—
(2) Once secured, this representation shall be determined and (a) produce a report under sub-paragraph (2) or (3)
co-ordinated by each devolved administration.” relating to that period (“the relevant reporting
New schedule 1—Protection for workers’ rights Protection period”),
for workers’ rights— (b) publish the report in such manner as the Secretary of
State considers appropriate, and
“PROTECTION FOR WORKERS’ RIGHTS (c) lay copies of the report before Parliament.
The Schedule 5A to be inserted after Schedule 5 to the European (2) A report under this sub-paragraph is one that contains a
Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 is as follows: statement that no new EU workers’ rights have been published by
the EU during the relevant reporting period.
‘SCHEDULE 5A
(3) A report under this sub-paragraph is one that contains—
PROTECTION FOR WORKERS’ RIGHTS (a) a statement that one or more new EU workers’ rights
have been published by the EU during the relevant
PART 1 reporting period, and
(b) as respects each new EU workers’ right published
WORKERS’ RETAINED EU RIGHTS during that period, either—
Acts of Parliament: statements of non-regression (i) a statement to the effect that in the Secretary of
State’s view the law of England and Wales and
1 (1) A Minister of the Crown in charge of a relevant Bill in
Scotland confers a workers’ right of the same
either House of Parliament must, before Second Reading of the
kind as the new EU workers’ right (a “statement
Bill—
of non-divergence”), or
(a) make a statement to the effect that in the Minister’s
(ii) a statement to the effect that the Secretary of State
view the provisions of the Bill will not result in the
is unable to make a statement of non-divergence.
law of the relevant part or parts of the United
Kingdom failing to confer any workers’ retained EU (4) If a report under sub-paragraph (3) contains a statement
right (a “statement of non-regression”), or under sub-paragraph (3)(b)(ii) as respects a new EU workers’
(b) make a statement to the effect that although the right, the report must also contain—
Minister is unable to make a statement of non- (a) a statement of whether or not Her Majesty’s
regression Her Majesty’s Government nevertheless Government intends to take any action in respect of
wishes the House to proceed with the Bill. the new EU workers’ right, and
(2) The statement must be in writing and be published in such (b) if it does, a statement describing the action which it is
manner as the Minister making it considers appropriate. intending to take.
(3) Before making a statement under sub-paragraph (1)(a) or (5) In relation to each report under sub-paragraph (3), a
(b) in relation to a Bill, a Minister of the Crown must consult— Minister of the Crown must make arrangements for—
(a) persons representative of workers, (a) a motion, to the effect that the House of Commons has
(b) persons representative of employers, and approved the report, to be moved in that House by a
Minister of the Crown within the period of 28 Commons
(c) any other persons whom the Minister considers it sitting days beginning with the day on which a copy of
appropriate to consult. the report is laid before that House, and
(4) But that duty does not apply to a statement made in relation (b) a motion for the House of Lords to approve the report
to a Bill if— to be moved in that House by a Minister of the
(a) it is not practicable for the consultation to take place in Crown within the period of 28 Lords sitting days
relation to the statement by reason of urgency, or beginning with the day on which a copy of the report
(b) the statement is being made before Second Reading is laid before that House.
of the Bill in the second House of Parliament and (6) When producing a report under sub-paragraph (3), the
the Bill was not amended in the first House of Secretary of State must consult—
Parliament.
(a) persons representative of workers,
(5) In this paragraph—
(b) persons representative of employers, and
“first House of Parliament”, in relation to a Bill,
(c) any other persons whom the Secretary of State
means the House of Parliament in which the Bill
considers it appropriate to consult.
is first introduced;
“relevant Bill” means a Bill which contains provision (7) In this paragraph “reporting period” means—
that— (a) the period that—
501 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 502
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
(i) begins with IP completion day, and (4) For the purposes of this Schedule a right under the law of
(ii) ends with the day which falls six months after the England and Wales or Scotland is conferred whether or not it is
day on which IP completion day falls; in force.
(b) subsequently, each period that—
(i) begins with the day (the “start day”) that comes 4 (1) The table referred to in the definition of “workers’
immediately after the end of the preceding retained EU rights” is as follows:
reporting period, and Workers’ retained EU rights: the EU directives
(ii) ends with the end day.
Council Directive 89/391/EEC of 12 June 1989 on the introduction
(8) The “end day” for that purpose is decided as follows— of measures to encourage improvements in the safety and health
(a) if any new EU workers’ rights are published by the EU of workers at work.
during the period of six months beginning with the Council Directive 89/654/EEC of 30 November 1989 concerning
start day, the end day is the day which falls six the minimum safety and health requirements for the workplace
months after— (first individual directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of
(i) the day on which those rights are published by the Directive 89/391/EEC).
EU, or Council Directive 89/656/EEC of 30 November 1989 on the
(ii) if they are published by the EU on different days, minimum health and safety requirements for the use by workers
the earliest of those days; of personal protective equipment at the workplace (third individual
(b) if no new EU workers’ rights are published by the EU directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
during the period of six months beginning with the Council Directive 90/269/EEC of 29 May 1990 on the minimum
start day, the end day is the day which falls twelve health and safety requirements for the manual handling of loads
months after the start day. where there is a risk particularly of back injury to workers (fourth
(9) A reference in this paragraph to a new EU workers’ right individual Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive
being published by the EU is a reference to the EU directive or 89/391/EEC).
EU regulation which provides for its conferral being published in Council Directive 90/270/EEC of 29 May 1990 on the minimum
the Official Journal of the European Union. safety and health requirements for work with display screen
equipment (fifth individual Directive within the meaning of Article
PART 3 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
Commission Directive 91/322/EEC of 29 May 1991 on establishing
INTERPRETATION indicative limit values by implementing Council Directive 80/1107/EEC
Interpretation on the protection of workers from the risks related to exposure to
3 (1) In this Schedule— chemical, physical and biological agents at work.
“new EU workers’ rights” means any workers’ rights— Council Directive 91/533/EEC of 14 October 1991 on an employer’s
(a) which member States are obliged to confer by obligation to inform employees of the conditions applicable to
an EU directive published in the Official the contract or employment relationship.
Journal of the European Union on or after IP Council Directive 92/57/EEC of 24 June 1992 on the implementation
completion day, or of minimum safety and health requirements at temporary or
(b) that are conferred by an EU regulation published mobile construction sites (eighth individual Directive within the
in the Official Journal of the European Union meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
on or after IP completion day; Council Directive 92/58/EEC of 24 June 1992 on the minimum
“workers’ retained EU rights” means workers’ rights of requirements for the provision of safety and/or health signs at
the kinds which— work (ninth individual Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1)
of Directive 89/391/EEC).
(a) immediately before IP completion day, the
United Kingdom was obliged to confer by Council Directive 92/85/EEC of 19 October 1992 on the introduction
virtue of the EU directives listed in the table of measures to encourage improvements in the safety and health
in paragraph 4, and at work of pregnant workers and workers who have recently given
(b) on IP completion day, continued to have effect birth or are breastfeeding (tenth individual Directive within the
(by virtue of this Act and as modified by any meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
provision made by or under this Act or Council Directive 92/91/EEC of 3 November 1992 concerning the
otherwise) in the law of England and Wales or minimum requirements for improving the safety and health protection
Scotland; of workers in the mineral-extracting industries through drilling
“workers’ rights” means rights of individuals, and classes (eleventh individual Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1)
of individuals, in the area of labour protection as of Directive 89/391/EEC).
regards— Council Directive 92/104/EEC of 3 December 1992 on the minimum
(a) fundamental rights at work, requirements for improving the safety and health protection of
(b) fair working conditions and employment workers in surface and underground mineral extracting industries
standards, (twelfth individual Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1)
of Directive 89/391/EEC).
(c) information and consultation rights at company
level, Council Directive 93/103/EC of 23 November 1993 concerning
the minimum safety and health requirements for work on board
(d) restructuring of undertakings, and fishing vessels (thirteenth individual Directive within the meaning
(e) health and safety at work. of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
(2) The reference in the definition of “workers’ retained EU Council Directive 94/33/EC of 22 June 1994 on the protection of
rights” to rights which continued to have effect by virtue of this young people at work.
Act includes a reference to rights which form part of retained EU Directive 96/71/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council
law by virtue of section 2 but which would have continued to of 16 December 1996 concerning the posting of workers in the
have effect irrespective of that section. framework of the provision of services.
(3) References in this Schedule to rights being of the same kind Council Directive 97/81/EC of 15 December 1997 concerning
as new EU workers’ rights are to be read as references to rights the Framework Agreement on part-time work concluded by
being of the same kind so far as that is consistent with the United UNICE, CEEP and the ETUC - Annex: Framework agreement
Kingdom’s domestic legal order following its withdrawal from on part-time work.
the EU.
503 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 504
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Workers’ retained EU rights: the EU directives Workers’ retained EU rights: the EU directives

Council Directive 98/23/EC of 7 April 1998 on the extension of Directive 2002/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the
Directive 97/81/EC on the framework agreement on part-time Council of 25 June 2002 on the minimum health and safety
work concluded by UNICE, CEEP and the ETUC to the United requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. arising from physical agents (vibration) (sixteenth individual Directive
within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
Council Directive 98/24/EC of 7 April 1998 on the protection of
the health and safety of workers from the risks related to chemical Directive 2003/10/EC of the European Parliament and of the
agents at work (fourteenth individual Directive within the meaning Council of 6 February 2003 on the minimum health and safety
of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC). requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks
arising from physical agents (noise) (Seventeenth individual Directive
Council Directive 98/59/EC of 20 July 1998 on the approximation within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
of the laws of the Member States relating to collective redundancies.
Council Directive 2003/72/EC of 22 July 2003 supplementing the
Council Directive 1999/63/EC of 21 June 1999 concerning the Statute for a European Cooperative Society with regard to the
Agreement on the organisation of working time of seafarers involvement of employees.
concluded by the European Community Shipowners’ Association Directive 2003/88/EC of the European Parliament and of the
(ECSA) and the Federation of Transport Workers’ Unions in the Council of 4 November 2003 concerning certain aspects of the
European Union (FST) - Annex: European Agreement on the organisation of working time.
organisation of working time of seafarers.
Directive 2004/37/EC of the European Parliament and of the
Council Directive 1999/70/EC of 28 June 1999 concerning the Council of 29 April 2004 on the protection of workers from the
framework agreement on fixed-term work concluded by ETUC, risks related to exposure to carcinogens or mutagens at work
UNICE and CEEP. (Sixth individual Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of
Directive 1999/92/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council Directive 89/391/EEC) (codified version).
Council of 16 December 1999 on the minimum requirements for Council Directive 2005/47/EC of 18 July 2005 on the Agreement
improving the safety and health protection of workers potentially between the Community of European Railways (CER) and the
at risk from explosive atmospheres (15th individual Directive European Transport Workers’ Federation (ETF) on certain aspects
within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC). of the working conditions of mobile workers engaged in interoperable
Directive 1999/95/EC of the European Parliament and of the cross-border services in the railway sector.
Council of 13 December 1999 concerning the enforcement of Commission Directive 2006/15/EC of 7 February 2006 establishing
provisions in respect of seafarers’ hours of work on board ships a second list of indicative occupational exposure limit values in
calling at Community ports. implementation of Council Directive 98/24/EC and amending
Commission Directive 2000/39/EC of 8 June 2000 establishing a Directives 91/322/EEC and 2000/39/EC.
first list of indicative occupational exposure limit values in Directive 2006/25/EC of the European Parliament and of the
implementation of Council Directive 98/24/EC on the protection Council of 5 April 2006 on the minimum health and safety
of the health and safety of workers from the risks related to requirements regarding the exposure of workers to risks arising
chemical agents at work. from physical agents (artificial optical radiation) (19th individual
Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/
Council Directive 2000/43/EC of 29 June 2000 implementing the
EEC).
principle of equal treatment between persons irrespective of
racial or ethnic origin. Directive 2006/54/EC of the European Parliament and of the
Council of 5 July 2006 on the implementation of the principle of
Directive 2000/54/EC of the European Parliament and of the equal opportunities and equal treatment of men and women in
Council of 18 September 2000 on the protection of workers from matters of employment and occupation (recast).
risks related to biological agents at work (seventh individual
Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/ Directive 2008/104/EC of the European Parliament and of the
EEC). Council of 19 November 2008 on temporary agency work.
Council Directive 2000/78/EC of 27 November 2000 establishing Council Directive 2009/13/EC of 16 February 2009 implementing
a general framework for equal treatment in employment and the Agreement concluded by the European Community Shipowners’
occupation. Associations (ECSA) and the European Transport Workers’
Federation (ETF) on the Maritime Labour Convention, 2006,
Council Directive 2000/79/EC of 27 November 2000 concerning and amending Directive 1999/63/EC.
the European Agreement on the Organisation of Working Time
of Mobile Workers in Civil Aviation concluded by the Association Directive 2009/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the
of European Airlines (AEA), the European Transport Workers’ Council of 6 May 2009 on the establishment of a European
Federation (ETF), the European Cockpit Association (ECA), the Works Council or a procedure in Community-scale undertakings
European Regions Airline Association (ERA) and the International and Community-scale groups of undertakings for the purposes of
Air Carrier Association (IACA). informing and consulting employees (Recast).
Directive 2009/104/EC of the European Parliament and of the
Council Directive 2001/23/EC of 12 March 2001 on the approximation
Council of 16 September 2009 concerning the minimum safety
of the laws of the Member States relating to the safeguarding of
and health requirements for the use of work equipment by
employees’ rights in the event of transfers of undertakings, businesses
workers at work (second individual Directive within the meaning
or parts of undertakings or businesses.
of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC).
Council Directive 2001/86/EC of 8 October 2001 supplementing Directive 2009/148/EC of the European Parliament and of the
the Statute for a European company with regard to the involvement Council of 30 November 2009 on the protection of workers from
of employees. the risks related to exposure to asbestos at work.
Directive 2002/14/EC of the European Parliament and of the Commission Directive 2009/161/EU of 17 December 2009 establishing
Council of 11 March 2002 establishing a general framework for a third list of indicative occupational exposure limit values in
informing and consulting employees in the European Community implementation of Council Directive 98/24/EC and amending
- Joint declaration of the European Parliament, the Council and Commission Directive 2000/39/EC.
the Commission on employee representation.
Council Directive 2010/18/EU of 8 March 2010 implementing the
Directive 2002/15/EC of the European Parliament and of the revised Framework Agreement on parental leave concluded by
Council of 11 March 2002 on the organisation of the working BUSINESSEUROPE, UEAPME, CEEP and ETUC and repealing
time of persons performing mobile road transport activities. Directive 96/34/EC.
505 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 506
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Workers’ retained EU rights: the EU directives We fully accept that, following the general election,
Council Directive 2010/32/EU of 10 May 2010 implementing the
we will be leaving the European Union on 31 January,
Framework Agreement on prevention from sharp injuries in the but winning a mandate for that exit, as the Government
hospital and healthcare sector concluded by HOSPEEM and have, does not give Ministers a free pass to avoid any
EPSU. scrutiny. The Government should be held to account
Directive 2013/35/EU of the European Parliament and of the between elections as well as at elections, and that is what
Council of 26 June 2013 on the minimum health and safety the Opposition propose to do. We will continue to make
requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks the case in the post-Brexit United Kingdom for jobs
arising from physical agents (electromagnetic fields) (20th individual and livelihoods, for environmental safeguards, for consumer
Directive within the meaning of Article 16(1) of Directive 89/391/EEC) protections and for employment rights, as we have over
and repealing Directive 2004/40/EC. recent years.
Directive 2013/38/EU of the European Parliament and of the
Council of 12 August 2013 amending Directive 2009/16/EC on New clause 2 is about protecting vital workers’ rights,
port State control. and subsection (1)(a) would ensure that the Government
Directive 2013/54/EU of the European Parliament and of the cannot introduce measures that would, in any way, have
Council of 20 November 2013 concerning certain flag State the effect of reducing the protections provided on the
responsibilities for compliance with and enforcement of the Maritime day the transition period ends. We believe this must go
Labour Convention, 2006. further.
Council Directive 2013/59/Euratom of 5 December 2013 laying Subsection (1)(b) confirms that the Government, after
down basic safety standards for protection against the dangers our exit from the EU, will ensure that workers’ rights in
arising from exposure to ionising radiation, and repealing Directives
the United Kingdom are, as a minimum, at the level
89/618/Euratom, 90/641/Euratom, 96/29/Euratom, 97/43/Euratom
and 2003/122/Euratom. they are in other EU member states. We also insist that
Directive 2014/67/EU of the European Parliament and of the
the Government are held to account in Parliament on
Council of 15 May 2014 on the enforcement of Directive 96/71/EC those objectives. The Government must never be allowed
concerning the posting of workers in the framework of the to sell out the workers of this country, and we will not
provision of services and amending Regulation (EU) No 1024/2012 let them off the hook. We will stand with those to
on administrative cooperation through the Internal Market whom this Government and the Prime Minister have
Information System (‘the IMI Regulation’). made promises.
Council Directive 2014/112/EU of 19 December 2014 implementing
the European Agreement concerning certain aspects of the Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole)
organisation of working time in inland waterway transport, concluded (Con): I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s tone and his
by the European Barge Union (EBU), the European Skippers
Organisation (ESO) and the European Transport Workers’ Federation
acceptance of the result of the general election. In turn,
(ETF). will he accept that workers’ rights in the UK are greater
Directive (EU) 2015/1794 of the European Parliament and of the
than those enjoyed within the EU and that we do not
Council of 6 October 2015 amending Directives 2008/94/EC, need to be members of the EU in order to have them?
2009/38/EC and 2002/14/EC of the European Parliament and of Sick pay, maternity leave and the minimum wage are
the Council, and Council Directives 98/59/EC and 2001/23/EC, as examples in this regard. Does he accept that those
regards seafarers. rights are already enhanced and that this sovereign
Council Directive (EU) 2017/159 of 19 December 2016 implementing Parliament guards them, not the EU?
the Agreement concerning the implementation of the Work in
Fishing Convention, 2007 of the International Labour Organisation, 5.30 pm
concluded on 21 May 2012 between the General Confederation of
Agricultural Cooperatives in the European Union (Cogeca), the Nick Thomas-Symonds: I am delighted to see the
European Transport Workers’ Federation (ETF) and the Association hon. Gentleman giving credit to past Labour Governments
of National Organisations of Fishing Enterprises in the European and their achievements, and he is absolutely right in
Union (Europêche).
what he says about the national minimum wage. We can
Commission Directive 2017/164/EU of 31 January 2017 establishing go back even further and talk about the Health and
a fourth list of indicative occupational exposure limit values
pursuant to Council Directive 98/24/EC, and amending Commission
Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, which was another fine
Directives 91/322/EEC, 2000/39/EC and 2009/161/EU. achievement by a UK Labour Government. However,
Directive (EU) 2017/1132 of the European Parliament and of the
there are also rights whose genesis has been in European
Council of 14 June 2017 relating to certain aspects of company law, as we know if we talk to agency workers and think
law. about the working time directive. We should be praising
these things. Labour Members say they should be not
(2) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make such only preserved but enhanced in future years, and that is
modifications of the list of EU directives in that table as the what this new clause is all about.
Secretary of State considers appropriate in consequence of any
changes before IP completion day in EU directives relating to I say to the hon. Gentleman that the Government’s
workers’ rights. record on workers’ rights is concerning to say the least.
(3) No regulations may be made under sub-paragraph (2) after Let us consider the previous incarnation of this Bill,
the end of the period of one year beginning with IP completion which was in October 2019. Schedule 4 to that Bill
day.” outlined that, first, a Minister would have to consult
businesses and unions on the impact on workers’ rights
Nick Thomas-Symonds: As this is my first appearance of any new proposed legislation and then state formally
at the Dispatch Box this year, I would like to thank my how that would happen, and that, secondly, the Government
constituents for re-electing me and send all hon. and would have to report regularly on any new EU directives.
right hon. Members my very best wishes for 2020. At the time, those proposals were described by the TUC
I draw attention to my relevant entries in the Register general secretary as “meaningless procedural tricks”,
of Members’ Financial Interests regarding my support which is why Labour Members tabled a similar amendment
from trade unions. to the one before us today so that stronger protections
507 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 508
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
would be in place. The position of the Government in on and make some remarks about the issue of security,
October 2019 was weak on workers’ rights and now it is because in a digital age, when crime knows no borders,
even weaker. If the Prime Minister cared so much, he there are extraordinary new challenges in the task of
would not have moved the provisions on this from the keeping the public safe. Nobody can doubt the value of
legally binding withdrawal agreement to the non-binding working together, and continuing to work together, on
political declaration. Why bother to make that change if security with the EU and other international partners,
not to prepare the ground to make changes in the but the Government have not yet produced a credible
future? It was no surprise that the Government started plan on how the current advantages we have—the current
off this Parliament indicating that they want to attack set of tools—will continue in the post-Brexit age.
the right to strike in the transport sector.
None of those are the actions of a Government who Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/
want, as they claim, to Co-op): My hon. Friend is making a crucial point.
“protect and enhance workers’ rights as the UK leaves the EU”. Although I agree with the other parts of the new clause
They are not the actions of a Government who want to on the customs union and the single market, security is
make Britain the an aspect that was largely lost in many of the debates
that we had in the House, yet we members of the Home
“best place in the world to work.”
Affairs Committee regularly heard evidence from experts—
Let us not forget that the Conservative party is the from law enforcement agencies, the Metropolitan police
party of employment tribunal fees, which were a barrier and others—of the risks to our security of not getting a
to those whose rights at work had been infringed and comprehensive security arrangement in place. Does my
were seeking justice. The Government now ask for trust hon. Friend agree that we should listen to those experts
on workers’ rights, but their record on this bears no and the Government should listen to them, too?
reasonable scrutiny. The Home Secretary, in the EU
referendum campaign, talked of the
Nick Thomas-Symonds: My hon. Friend is absolutely
“burdens of the EU social and employment legislation”. right. I shall develop that point, because one issue is
Another member of the Government said: that the non-binding political declaration contains an
“The weight of employment regulation is now back-breaking: aim for a broad, comprehensive and balanced security
the collective redundancies directive, the atypical workers directive, partnership, but that is currently just words on a piece
the working time directive and a thousand more”. of paper. We urgently need a plan. When the former
Who said that? It was the man who now claims to be Prime Minister spoke at the Munich security conference
the workers’ friend, the Prime Minister himself. This in February 2018, she spoke about a security treaty with
Government cannot and will not be trusted on workers’ the EU27, but we are still waiting for the planned
rights—rights that have been hard won over generations architecture of that co-operation.
by the labour movement. That is why this new clause is Let me give some specific examples. Things such as
needed in the Bill, in order to safeguard the millions of the European arrest warrant, Eurojust and Europol are
workers in this country who deserve our continuous critical to the successful investigation and extradition of
protections of their rights. That is why the Opposition wanted suspects or criminals. National Crime Agency
will press that new clause to a vote when the time comes. statistics show how important this is. In the period from
New clause 3 sets out details about our future 2010 to 2016, the UK made 1,773 requests to member
relationship, putting the protection of jobs and livelihoods states for extradition under the European arrest warrant
at the very top of our priorities as we depart the EU. It and received 48,776 requests from member states for
sets out the arguments that have been made by the extradition. Not only can the UK currently bring people
Opposition for some years now, arguments for a UK-wide to these shores to face justice, but we can send dangerous
customs union, with a say in external trade deals, for people to other countries to face legal proceedings.
strong, high-quality single market access, and for ensuring It seems the Government have accepted the importance
that rights and protections—for workers, as I have mentioned, of the European arrest warrant. Their July 2018 White
but in other areas too—in the UK never fall behind Paper said that
those across Europe. I also think of our manufacturing
sector, where our exporters are currently benefiting from “the UK has arrested more than 12,000 individuals, and for every
person arrested on an EAW issued by the UK, the UK arrests
tariff-free access to the single market. In all our constituencies, eight on EAWs issued by other Member States”.
whether through direct employment or the many supply
chains that exist, workers and businesses will rightly That White Paper also showed the challenge that the
look to this House to protect their interests going forward, Government face. It said:
and that is what we should do. “Existing extradition arrangements between the EU and third
In the course of this Parliament, we will hold the countries do not provide the same level of capability as the EAW.”
Government to account on their record on jobs and We cannot allow our capability to be diminished.
investment. The basis upon which they secure the new
relationship with the EU will have consequences for Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): The hon. Gentleman
now and for decades to come. Parliament has lost its is making an important point. Before the general election
right to set a negotiating mandate, so that task now falls I produced a report with the all-party group on deaths
squarely on the shoulders of the Government. They will abroad and consular services and assistance, which I
be judged on what they do and the impact it has on chair. He may be aware that there are already significant
employment prospects up and down the land. challenges when our citizens die, get into trouble or are
Subsection (1)(d) refers to participation in EU agencies, incarcerated abroad. All the officers and the people I
many of which have been debated in the course of our have spoken to have said that Brexit is only going to
deliberations on Brexit in recent years. I wish to focus compound those issues and make it more difficult for
509 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 510
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Hannah Bardell] that the substance of the deleted clauses will be covered
in a separate employment Bill, but, as it has yet to be
our citizens to get proper representation and support laid before Parliament, we are understandably suspicious
from the Foreign Office after Brexit; does the hon. given the history of these matters. It is simply not true
Gentleman agree? or accurate to suggest that the United Kingdom has
done a better job than the European Union in protecting
Nick Thomas-Symonds: The hon. Lady is absolutely workers’ rights. There are some respects in which the
right to highlight the challenges, which are precisely United Kingdom has progressed matters, and it is true
what I wish to come on to and develop. to say that those came under a Labour Government,
Yesterday, I heard the Secretary of State for Exiting and I congratulate Labour on that.
the European Union respond to an intervention by my
hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant); Michael Tomlinson: Will the hon. and learned Lady
my fear is that as yet the Government’s thinking just has give way?
not moved beyond the implementation period, which Joanna Cherry: I want to develop my point before I
ends at the end of 2020. What happens after that is so take any interventions from the hon. Gentleman.
important, because it will determine what our law
enforcement agencies have in their armoury to deal with There are many other respects in which the European
pan-European crime. It is an urgent task. Union and our membership of it have advanced the
cause of workers’ rights. Judgments of the European
The issue of data sharing and continued data sharing Court of Justice, expanding the law in the way that
is crucial. Were the UK ever to lose access to the EU’s some hon. Members seem to find so objectionable, have
security databases, information that today can be retrieved also led to greater protections for workers in the United
almost instantaneously could take days or weeks to Kingdom. As well as the disappearance of what was
access. That would create a significant hurdle to effective clause 34 in the October Bill, this Bill also removes the
policing, to say the least. provision that pre-Brexit judgments of the European
On Europol, how do the Government see the future? Court of Justice will continue to be binding on UK
Do they envisage full participation, or only observer courts until the UK Supreme Court departs from them.
status at board meetings? We just do not know. The fact Instead, it has provision for Ministers of this Government
that the situation is critical and the position wholly to make regulations under clause 26—[Interruption.] I
unsatisfactory is the fault of the Government and not can see the Minister frowning at me, but we spoke about
of those who work in our security sector. After all, the this in some detail earlier today. I am talking about
UK makes a great contribution to European security. regulations to enable certain courts and tribunals to
Through the Schengen information system—or SIS II depart from the CJEU case law. That, of course, underlines
as it is known—the UK is contributing to the sharing of the concern that many trade unions feel in relation to
real-time data on wanted criminals, missing persons this matter.
and suspected terrorists, and that co-operation is beneficial I have read very carefully what Unison, the TUC and
to us all. The data shared in that database are used the Scottish TUC say about this matter. I have also seen
millions of times each year by UK police, and that what has been said by Thompsons Solicitors, a well-known
surely must illustrate to all Members the profound risk legal firm that many of us have had dealings with in the
of there being no long-term deal on security. past, which has worked hard in the area of protection of
In conducting the negotiation, the Government must workers’ rights. The fear is that the combination of the
emphasise the UK’s contribution and the mutually beneficial missing clause and the power that the Government are
nature of European co-operation in dealing with the taking to themselves to interfere with the Supreme
most serious organised crime on our continent. I listened Court’s ability to overrule previous European Court of
carefully to the new European Commission President Justice decisions will create a chaotic free-for-all on
today. She said that the threat of terrorism is real, and workers’ rights in the United Kingdom, whereby the
that we have to share the necessary information to stop courts could potentially weaken existing workers’ rights
terrorists crossing borders and attacking us. She is right. and ignore past ECJ rulings from which trade unionists
When we are fighting crime, we are better working to and workers across the United Kingdom have benefited.
eradicate it collectively than working alone, and we If that does not happen in the courts, it could well
need a formal legal basis to continue to do so. That is happen as a result of the unilateral action of Government
why new clause 3 is so important, and I commend it and Ministers through delegated legislation.
new clause 2 to the House.
5.45 pm
Joanna Cherry: I rise to give the support of the It is important to remember that working people in
Scottish National party to the official Opposition’s new the United Kingdom have benefited from a number of
clause 2 and to speak to new clause 8, in the name of my recent landmark judgments by the Court of Justice,
right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and including the requirement for employers to keep records
Lochaber (Ian Blackford); new clauses 50 and 51 and of all hours worked to comply with the working time
new schedule 1 in my name and those of some of my directive, which is very important to many of our
colleagues; and new clauses 45 and 46, in the names of constituents, and the ruling that employers might not
SDLP Members. have to factor overtime into holiday pay calculations,
I want to turn first to the issue of workers’ rights. which is also very important to many of our constituents,
What is being done in this Bill is very serious, which is particularly to those who are not as well paid as Members
why new clause 51 and new schedule 1 seek to reinstate of this House—even those who do not have a second
the missing clause and schedule that were in the October job. We often hear from Government Members how
version of this Bill. The Government have suggested much they care about the working man and woman, but
511 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 512
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
if they really did, they would support the new clauses guarantees that regardless of the complexion of government
tabled by me and by the Labour party, and would give in the United Kingdom, there will be certain minimum
us the guarantees we require that there will not be a standards. Withdrawal from the EU undermines that in
regression from the rights that many of our constituents a number of areas, particularly workers’ rights, and that
have enjoyed as a result of European Union law. is why these amendments are so important.
My second point relates to the charter of fundamental
Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): Many rights, which was of course removed by the European
of those who advanced the leave cause during the Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and is not dealt with in
referendum campaign said that one of the reasons they this Bill. However, there remains widespread concern
wanted to leave the European Union was to do away about the effect of the removal of the charter because,
with workers’ rights and employment rights. Now that as we heard at length in the last Parliament, it guarantees
many of those people are on the Treasury Bench, the certain rights that are not guaranteed by the convention
suspicions held by many of us are only going to intensify. on human rights or by the domestic legal systems of
these islands. My SNP colleagues and I believe that this
Joanna Cherry: Not all, but many Members on the Parliament should ensure that the Bill does not lead to
Government Benches have spoken about just the sort of the diminishing of the rights of UK citizens or EU
free-for-all on rights that we fear. Of course, this partly citizens living in the UK. One way of doing that would
comes from the conceit that somehow the United be for the Government to commit to conducting and
Kingdom—by which they normally mean England—has publishing an impact assessment on the effect of the
a monopoly on rights, which is not shared by other removal of the EU charter of fundamental rights later
countries across the world, including the other countries this year. That is what my new clause 50 seeks to
in the European Union. Unfortunately, the lived experience achieve. I would respectfully suggest that, in the interests
of working men and women across the United Kingdom of certainty, no reasonable parliamentarian in this House
is not one of confidence in Governments of the UK to who cares about the rights of his or her constituents
protect them, particularly when those Governments are could oppose an inquiry into the impact of the withdrawal
of the Conservative and Unionist party. That is why of the charter on their constituents’ rights.
they have been so reliant on the jurisprudence of the
New clause 8, in the name of my right hon. Friend
European Court of Justice, and on directives and regulations
the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber and a number
passed by the European Union institutions, in which
of other colleagues, sets out a requirement for the UK
Britain has of course had significant input over the
Government to negotiate a deal keeping the UK close
years. My new clauses and the Labour party’s seek to
to the single market and the customs union. I have no
achieve some minimum guarantees in relation to the
intention of pressing it, because I know that that ship
continued enjoyment of many rights that exist only
has sailed. However, it is intended to remind the House
because of the European Union.
of, and to put on record, the position of the Scottish
National party and the Scottish Government in relation
Geraint Davies: Does the hon. and learned Lady to membership of the single market and the customs
agree that the European Court of Justice underpins our union.
fundamental values of democracy, human rights and
the rule of law? Does she also agree that, outside it, The Minister said earlier that the UK Government
workers’ rights, the judiciary and the rule of law are have engaged with the devolved Administrations throughout
under attack, and that our civil service, the BBC and all the negotiations to leave the European Union, but I am
such institutions are now a free-for-all? It is not just afraid that the evidence of the past three years shows
workers’ rights; it is the judicial system itself. that while engagement has taken place, it has been very
much a superficial box-ticking exercise. That is not just
Joanna Cherry: As I said earlier, it is clear from the the view of the SNP; I see others who represent seats in
Conservative manifesto that the Government intend a areas covered by other devolved Administrations nodding
rebalancing of power between the Executive, Parliament their heads.
and the judiciary. I think this comes from a sense of In December 2016, the Scottish Government published
hubris about the Prime Minister’s defeat in the Supreme a document called “Scotland’s Place in Europe”, which
Court at the tail end of last year. Of course, it is was the first comprehensive proposal from any Government
important to remember that that was not a political in these islands to address the outcome of the EU
decision, but a legal one. The distinguished Scottish referendum. It contained an evidence-based analysis
judge Lord Drummond Young said in the Scottish showing that the least damaging option for leaving the
Supreme Court, “It is not for the judiciary to scrutinise European Union—the optimum case being to remain—was
the Government. That is the job of Parliament. But to continue membership of the single market and customs
when the Government prevents Parliament from doing union. The document demonstrated how that could be
its job, then it is the job of the judiciary to step in to done for the UK as a whole, notwithstanding other
make sure that Parliament can fulfil its function.” I see parts of the United Kingdom such as Northern Ireland
that that comment from a distinguished member of the and Scotland. The proposals represented a very considerable
Scottish bench is going down like a lead balloon on the compromise by the Scottish Government, but despite
Government Benches, but it simply mirrors what Lady cross-party support in the Scottish Parliament, they
Hale was careful to do in the Supreme Court, which was were almost instantly dismissed by the former Prime
to underline that these were legal judgments, not political Minister. Indeed, they were read more carefully by
ones. Michel Barnier than by the British Government.
Our memberships of international institutions such Thereafter, Scottish Government colleagues engaged
as the European Union and the European convention fully in good faith with the process set up by the UK
on human rights, separately, have given important Government apparently—I use the word “apparently”
513 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 514
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Joanna Cherry] While we hear a lot of rhetoric again and again today
about how the British people have spoken, the will of
advisedly—toinvolveandconsultthedevolvedAdministrations the people and a suggestion that the Opposition are
in formulating the UK position for withdrawal. The somehow an affront to democracy for turning up and
terms of the Joint Ministerial Committee on EU negotiations, scrutinising this Bill, it is important to remember that,
which was set up for that very purpose, were agreed in far from being an affront to democracy, my hon. Friends
October 2016, saying that through the Committee the and I speak for majority opinion in Scotland—the
Governments would majority opinion in Scotland is to remain in the European
“work collaboratively to…seek to agree a UK approach to, and Union. Every electoral opportunity that has been afforded
objectives for, Article 50 negotiations; and provide oversight of to Scotland since the EU referendum, including the last
negotiations with the EU, to ensure, as far as possible, that general election, has resulted in a resounding majority
outcomes agreed by all four governments are secured from these of seats for parties that support remaining in the European
negotiations”. Union. So can we tone down a wee bit the rhetoric
Sadly, it was soon clear that the UK Government had about the will of the British people and acknowledge
no intention of honouring those commitments. There is the reality of the degree to which engagement has taken
more to engagement than simply turning up and speaking place?
at people. Engagement involves listening, compromising Members need not just take my word for it or that
and collaborating. of my colleagues in the SNP Scottish Government.
The Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs
Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): The hon. and learned Committee of the Commons concluded in July 2018:
Lady is making an important contribution, as she often “It is clear from the evidence to this inquiry that Whitehall still
does. This is not just about the withdrawal process. We operates extensively on the basis of a structure and culture which
cannot even get discussions about what is happening take little account of the realities of devolution in the UK. This is
with the shared prosperity fund. It is 19 or 20 months inimical to the principles of devolution and good governance
in UK.”
since the consultation should have ended. I understand
from Welsh Assembly Members and Welsh Government That was the conclusion of a cross-party Committee of
colleagues that they cannot even get a discussion with this House. I do not expect any support from Government
the Treasury, the Department for Business, Energy and Members for the SNP’s new clause 8, but it gives me the
Industrial Strategy, the Wales Office or the Scottish Office. opportunity to correct some factual misunderstandings
If we cannot even get what happens to our funding about the degree of engagement that has taken place
right, there is little hope of genuine consultation with over the last few years.
the devolved Administrations on the process of leaving. Before I conclude, I would like to express my support
for new clauses 45 and 46, tabled by my colleagues in
Joanna Cherry: That is very much the experience of the Social Democratic and Labour party. New clause 45
my Scottish Government colleagues across the board in would require each devolved legislature to give legislative
this engagement with the British Government. In fact, consent to any trade deal affecting the NHS. It is very
in a recent keynote speech to the Institute for Government, similar to the SNP’s new clause 68, which was not
my friend and colleague Mike Russell, the Cabinet selected for debate. The SNP manifesto in Scotland
Secretary for the constitution in the Scottish Government, contained a commitment to protect the NHS from a
said that trade deal with the United States of America. We won
“at no point have the views of the Scottish Government, the
the election in Scotland with 45% of the vote and 80%
Welsh Government or Northern Irish representatives been addressed” of the seats, and it would perhaps be a courtesy to take
on board an amendment that reflects the will of the
in a way that has led them to believe that they have been majority of people who bothered to vote in Scotland.
listened to and would be taken account of in any
meaningful way. Still less has there been any recognition Stephen Doughty: I am sure the hon. and learned
of any need to accommodate the pro-EU majority in Member would acknowledge that a similar pledge has
Scotland and in Northern Ireland, or of the position of also been made by the Welsh Health Minister, and my
Scottish MPs or, indeed, the Scottish Parliament, which constituency colleague, Vaughan Gething. Welsh Labour’s
normally votes by more than two thirds to one third on commitment on this, and I am sure that of Plaid Cymru
substantive Brexit issues. Indeed, just this afternoon as and others, is absolutely clear: we will defend the NHS
we have been debating here, the Scottish Parliament has in Wales in trade negotiations.
voted by 92 votes to 29 to withhold legislative consent
to this Bill. I am afraid that the Government cannot just
blame the bête noire of the Scottish National party for 6 pm
that. It has involved all parties in the House—the Lib Joanna Cherry: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman
Dems, Labour and the Greens, but not the Scottish for reminding me of the position in Wales. That of
Conservatives, who are not interested in what the majority course reflects the fact that, again, this is a concern not
of people living in Scotland want. They are more interested just of nationalist parties, but of the parties that support
in doing the bidding of their Westminster-based masters. the devolved settlements but perhaps do not wish to go
The point is this: there has been no meaningful as far as independence.
engagement with the Scottish Government. There has been The SDLP’s new clause 46 requires regional equality,
no meaningful engagement with the Welsh Government. environmental and economic impact assessments of
As we heard even from the DUP, which has a genuine any proposed future relationship or free trade agreement.
right to be annoyed about recent developments, there Again, that is eminently sensible. It is similar to Plaid
has been no meaningful engagement with Northern Cymru’s new clause 16, which is looking for a UK-wide
Irish representatives. economic impact assessment. Again, those are matters
515 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 516
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
that I would have thought any MP who cares about the puts all that under threat. If full access to the scheme is
outcome of these negotiations and the future of their not negotiated, it is those from the poorer families who
constituents’ livelihoods would be well advised to support. will suffer. Those from well-off families will be able to
I will conclude by saying that we need to take account study abroad if they want; their parents could pay the
in these proceedings of the different positions of the fees. The Erasmus scheme gives those from poorer
devolved nations. What I say and will continue to say to backgrounds the ability to do that in a way that simply
the Government is that if they continue to act as if there was not available before it came to fruition.
is no difference between the wishes of the electorate in
England and the wishes of the electorate in Scotland, Alison Thewliss: The hon. Lady is making some excellent
Northern Ireland and Wales, they will do so at their points on the reasons why we should keep Erasmus.
peril, and the Union that they say they care about so Pollokshields Primary in my constituency is one of the
much will be further undermined by that behaviour. very few state primary schools that participate in the
exchange programme, and it broadens the horizons of
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): I children from a Scottish Pakistani background by twinning
rise to support new clauses 10 and 29, on which we will with a school, Colegio Hernández, in Spain. So horizons
be seeking a vote today. These should absolutely be are being broadened in all kinds of different ways under
no-brainers. the scheme. It would be such a shame to lose it.
New clause 10 is about the Erasmus programme. For
students, young people, those in training and staff who Layla Moran: That is another reason why we need to
work in the education sector, the Erasmus scheme has keep it, and I will simply say this: while Brexit suggests
been absolutely incredible. I wonder how many of us on to those abroad that Britain might be not quite as
these Benches have used that programme ourselves, or international-facing as it was before, every time I meet a
have had our children or others in our family do so. young person—particularly during the most recent election
From 2014 to the end of this year alone, ¤1 billion has campaign—they point to things like Erasmus as the
been allocated to support the UK as part of Erasmus+. older generation pulling up the drawbridge to the
New clause 10 would only require the Government to opportunities that we had, and that they wish they had
seek—to do what they say they want to do, but let us be for their future. It would be such a shame for us to
sure—to negotiate continuing full membership of the conclude this debate this week without a firm assurance
future Erasmus education and youth programme. from the Government that they want to keep that
programme, and that there is nothing that they would
We could secure access to the programme through love more than to see that written in the Bill itself; I do
negotiations, but we would be an associated third country not understand why they would not want to do that.
and that would never be as good as the programme we
are part of now. However, at least with new clause 10 The same goes for Horizon 2020, so I will broaden
this Parliament would be instructing the Government what I am saying slightly. As we know, the productivity
that, as part of the next phase, that is something we gap is one of the biggest crises in our country and
absolutely want. Horizon 2020 is another example of the best of European
co-operation. Between 2007 and 2013 the UK received
Let us remind ourselves what Erasmus does. It allows ¤8.8 billion on research and development and innovation
our young people to go abroad to European universities, from the EU. When, over the past few years, I have
to learn new languages, to meet new people, to put raised this in the House, I have heard Ministers say from
down some roots abroad and to build the international the Dispatch Box, “We will replace the money.”
understanding that, in my view, is a big part of what it
means to be British. I will make the following point through the voice of a
constituent who is a professor of chemistry at Oxford
Jim Shannon: I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing University, so I hope we will concede that he probably
this matter to the Committee for consideration. Today I knows. It is not just about the money, he says:
had the opportunity to meet representatives from the “It’s important for Ministers to recognise that access to EU
Russell Group, which encompasses 24 universities across funding only plays a part and is certainly not the full sum of UK
scientists’ concerns. Science is indeed Humboldt’s “country without
the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and borders”; in 2018, over half of all scientific research papers
Northern Ireland, and the Erasmus scheme was one of published from the UK acknowledged international collaboration
the schemes they mentioned. They intimated how good through author addresses, and well over 30% of all publications
the scheme was and how important it was, and stressed involved one or more EU countries.”
the opportunity that it brings. I want to support the That says it all; I hear it over and over again. If we
hon. Lady in what she has said. When we have universities want to attract the best, a visa will not help; they need
with the capacity and strength of membership that we to know that they will be absolutely welcome in our
have across all four regions, it indicates to me that the country, and that they are welcome for those research
Erasmus scheme is a good scheme and needs to be opportunities. We are already seeing it in our institutions—
retained. not just Oxford University but Oxford Brookes as well,
and in the number of professors and others who are
Layla Moran: I thank the hon. Member very much coming to me and saying, “I tried to put in for a certain
for his intervention; he makes the point beautifully. It is grant; it is not being accepted any more because of the
such a no-brainer: this is something that we should want uncertainty this is causing.” If new clause 10 were part
to keep. of the Bill, it would give them the certainty they need to
When people who have used the scheme return and be part of that collaboration from now—and, believe
apply their skills, the economy is boosted. The scheme me, when those people go and they go to the other
increases their chances of getting a job and increases European universities that will have them, that is where
their confidence and sense of independence—and Brexit they will put down roots and that is where they are more
517 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 518
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Layla Moran] Debbie Abrahams: It is lovely to see you in the Chair,
Sir George.
likely to stay. We cannot afford to lose those people.
I know the Government want to keep the best and the I rise to speak to my new clause 27, which seeks to
brightest; well, these are they, and they are saying that ensure that there is no regression from EU standards on
they are leaving. the environment; food; the substance of REACH
regulations, which seek to protect human health and the
Finally, I shall speak to new clause 29, which is about environment from the use of chemicals; and animal
that level playing field. I shall obviously support the welfare. It addresses the points that have just been made.
Labour Front Bench in the Division, when it comes,
The UK currently enjoys high standards in areas
because that level playing field and its effect on workers’
such as habitat protection and product safety. Having
rights is incredibly important, but I will continue to
developed those standards with our European neighbours,
stress that it is not just about workers’ rights; it is also
we now benefit from cleaner beaches, safer food and the
about environmental standards, and that is the bit that I
best chemicals regulation in the world. The Government
am seriously concerned about.
have committed to legislate to ensure high standards of
The best feature of the election campaign we have environmental protection, but they have not yet delivered
just had was that the environment was, apparently, at on that commitment. The 2018 withdrawal agreement
the top of all political parties’ agenda; we kept hearing contained a legally binding mutual commitment to
from the Government that they wanted to supersede the non-regression in most areas of environmental law, if
level playing field arrangements when it came to the transition period did not produce an agreement on
environmental standards, and that is brilliant. All the the future relationship. That has been removed from the
level playing field is actually is a minimum standard; Bill and I wonder whether the Minister can explain why
why would we not want to keep it? that is the case.
The same goes for workers’ rights. The same goes for Climate change is the defining issue of our time and
anything else when it comes to that level playing field. we are at a defining moment. The world is now experiencing
The problem, as we have heard before, is that removing a climate emergency, and an urgent and rapid global
it and deregulating opens the door to lower standards. response is now necessary. From shifting weather patterns
We talk about America. It is not just about America, that threaten food production, to rising sea levels that
but let’s face it, we know that that is where the Government increase the risk of catastrophic flooding and the horrendous
are looking to their next trade deal. bush fires we currently see in Australia, the impacts of
I want to be clear about what the problem is. The climate change are global in scope and unprecedented in
environment Bill, which the Government say will replace scale.Aftermorethanacenturyandahalf of industrialisation,
EU legislation, does not operate on the stronger deforestation and large-scale agriculture, quantities of
precautionary principle to which the EU’s environmental greenhouse gases in the atmosphere have risen to record
standards currently operate. We are in a climate emergency. levels that have not been seen in 3 million years.
We cannot help but be moved—I am sure we all are—by We know that as populations, economies and standards
the images coming out of Australia. We need to ensure of living grow, so does the cumulative level of greenhouse
that those minimum standards are the absolute minimum. gas emissions. In October 2018, the Intergovernmental
My worry is that in a post-Brexit world we will be Panel on Climate Change issued a special report on the
looking for trade deals with other countries who would impacts of global warming of 1.5° C, finding that
much prefer it if we lowered our standards. That would limiting global warming to 1.5° C would require rapid,
open the door to our compromising in this area, when I far-reaching and unprecedented changes in all aspects
heard time and time again that there was no appetite of society. The IPCC said we must cut global emissions
across the country for any kind of compromise. in half by 2030 and achieve net zero emissions by 2050.
The UK should be leading the way both nationally and
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The hon. internationally. The Government must play their role.
Lady is making a very powerful case. Does she agree
that not only non-regression but dynamic alignment is Caroline Lucas: The hon. Lady will not be surprised
vital? EU legislation is constantly modified. For example, that I completely agree with her. She will know that the
the REACH legislation has been updated 38 times since Prime Minister has said that he wants to bring forward
it first came into law in 2006. If we are to avoid the risk what he has called the most ambitious environmental
of so-called zombie legislation—EU legislation brought programme of any country in the world. That being the
across to the UK statute book but not updated—we case, does she share my bewilderment that Ministers
need dynamic alignment, too. could even conceive of not supporting the new clause?
What would they have to fear from an amendment that
Layla Moran: Absolutely. I thank the hon. Lady for simply seeks to ensure that we do not go backwards, if
her point and commend her for her tireless work on this they are absolutely serious about delivering for the
issue. I think the broad consensus across the House is environment?
that we must now take the environmental crisis seriously.
As the science progresses and as we understand where 6.15 pm
the technologies are going, we must stay close to our
nearest neighbours. That matters when it comes to the Debbie Abrahams: My hon. Friend makes the point
environment and to biodiversity. We have to make sure that I am trying to make: if the Government are committed
that we do that. I ask us all, as a sign to ensure we stay to this, why are they not putting it in the Bill?
within that level playing field and within programmes Last September’s UN climate action summit delivered
such as Horizon and Erasmus, to vote for new clauses 10 a boost in momentum, co-operation and ambition, but
and 29. as the UN Secretary-General said:
519 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 520
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
“we have a long way to go…We need more concrete plans, more deal, was not selected for debate. I was under no illusion
ambition from more countries and more businesses. We need all that the Government would support it, but I wanted to
financial institutions, public and private, to choose, once and for highlight the issue. If anybody has not read the excellent
all, the green economy.”
book by Professor Danny Dorling on what is driving
This year’s UN climate conference must see existing Brexit, I thoroughly recommend it. If national policy is
commitments renewed and increased, not least by the being driven by the narrow interests of a few, and their
Government. The political declaration, agreed by the interests are their own enrichment, our politics is not
UK and EU in October 2019, proposed that the UK just damaged but broken. As I am sure many here
and EU should uphold “common high standards”. would agree, politics is about public service, not what it
However, the declaration is only indicative and is not can do for us personally.
legally binding. Including an amendment on environmental
non-regression in the Bill would help to ensure that
standards are not weakened across the UK during the Claire Hanna: I rise to speak to new clause 45, on the
process of EU withdrawal. Given that the scope of the protection of the NHS from future trade deals, and new
Bill is focused on actions in connection with EU withdrawal, clause 59, on ensuring political representation for Northern
further non-regression guarantees will be needed, both Ireland in the European Parliament.
in domestic legislation, such as the environment Bill, I suspect it goes without saying that I deeply regret
and in the future relationship agreement with the EU. the arrival of this point in the Brexit process. We still
The new clause is broken down into a number of view Brexit as an extraordinary act of self-harm for
different sections. Proposed new section 14A of the Britain. We on our side of the Irish sea will suffer
European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 defines regressive immense political, social and economic collateral damage.
and protected matters covered by the proposal, which To protect ourselves, and indeed other regions of the
include UK, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum
“the environment…food safety and other standards…the substance Eastwood) and I have tabled amendments that would
of REACH regulations; and…animal welfare.” provide for impact assessments, prevent the diminution
Proposed new section 14B adds a procedural check— of rights, on which the hon. Member for North Down
similar to that already carried out on new legislation in (Stephen Farry) has expanded very well, and give the
relation to human rights—for primary legislation. This Good Friday agreement institutions the flexibility they
requires Government either to state that new legislation need to respond to the challenges that Brexit will bring.
does not weaken environmental standards or, if it does, I do not need to remind Members that the Good Friday
to explain why and require explicit parliamentary approval agreement is sovereign in Northern Ireland and has
of that regression. The new office for environmental been endorsed overwhelmingly by the people—more so
protection must be consulted during this process. than anything else before or since. It is not just an
Proposed new section 14C prevents withdrawal from ornament on the mantelpiece; it is a toolkit that can
the EU being used as a route for lowering environmental help us to weather the storm of Brexit, but it has to be
standards by secondary legislation. given the powers, flexibility and opportunity to respond
to the many challenges that we know are coming but the
Proposed new section 14D prevents withdrawal from
shape of which we do not yet know.
the EU being used as a route for lowering environmental
standards by other public body action. Ensuring European parliamentary representation for
Proposed new section 14E requires the Secretary of Northern Ireland is part of that. Thankfully, we will be
State to publish guidance for Government Departments within the regulatory orbit of the EU. Members will
and other public authorities to support them in avoiding know that the Good Friday agreement mandates the
any regressive actions. Government to ensure no diminution of rights for
people in Northern Ireland because of Brexit, but one
Finally, proposed new section 14F ensures that all
of those rights, because they are Irish citizens and
new EU environmental law is reviewed by an expert
therefore will continue to be EU citizens, is the right to
independent body to track potential divergence. If any
political representation in the European Parliament.
potential divergence is identified and not approved by
There is therefore a duty on the Government to continue
Parliament, the Government must commit to taking
to provide that right for continuing EU and Irish citizens.
steps to rectify that divergence.
An argument has been made that the new clause is In many ways, the new clause merges amendments
not needed, as the UK will have better standards. However, tabled by others around democratic oversight, transparency
Ministers have stated many times that environmental and parliamentary consent as this Brexit evolves. For
standards will not be weakened, so it should not be the many reasons Members have laid out, if Brexit is to
controversial to guarantee that in legislation, as my deliver even a fraction of what Government Members
hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline are promising, they should have no concerns about
Lucas) mentioned. What objection can the Government oversight and allowing people to see the process as it
have to committing to the new clause? I would very evolves. In matters of public policy, I have always found
much welcome the Minister’s comments on that. A sunlight to be the best disinfectant. We must allow
meaningful commitment to non-regression is essential people to see how the processes are happening.
if the UK is to genuinely put itself forward as a world New clause 45 is self-explanatory. It seeks to protect
leader in environmental protection. I urge the Government the NHS from future trade deals and to ensure, if a
to support the new clause; we need to ensure that their future relationship affects the devolution settlement on
deeds match their words. health, that legislative consent is sought from the Northern
I was very disappointed that my new clause 9, with Ireland Assembly—fingers crossed, it will exist again next
which I sought to prevent any Minister of the Crown week—and from the Scottish Parliament and the National
from financially benefiting from any proposed trade Assembly for Wales.
521 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 522
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Claire Hanna] our suggestion that an oral statement should be made
on Europe Day, and that European flags should be
We have tabled several other amendments—and support flown above Government buildings.
amendments that mirror them—around a level playing
field, the maintenance of workers’ rights, Erasmus and Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): I
Horizon 2020, which are so fundamental to Queen’s thank my hon. Friend for giving way so early in his
University in my constituency, and safeguards for speech. He has made a good point. His new clause is
EU nationals living here. about celebration and recognising what we had in Europe,
as opposed to the triumphant attitude of the ERG and
Jim Shannon: The hon. Lady is making some very the Brexiteers who talk of Big Ben chiming on the 31st.
pertinent points. In my constituency, the agri-food sector I was contacted by a constituent, Paul from Kilmarnock,
is important for jobs. We need workers’ rights enshrined who requested the Government not to organise a
so that those in the sector can have their jobs and triumphant celebration because of the fear felt by so
immigration status retained. In some cases, people might many other people about what they are losing. Does my
fall through the cracks. If that is the case, we need to hon. Friend agree that those who want Big Ben to
ensure that, even at this late stage, they can apply for sound should recognise what EU citizens will feel like
and have the status they need. Does she think the on that night when we exit Europe?
Government should enshrine in legislation provisions
that enable them to retain their immigration status in David Linden: Absolutely. My hon. Friend’s constituent
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Paul has made a fair point. Brexit should not be about
Ireland so they can help our agri-food sector to grow the narrow nationalism of the European Research Group
and provide more jobs? and inward-looking “little Britain” attitudes. My new
clause suggests a way of expressing a more outward-looking
Claire Hanna: I do agree. In fact, I have been surprised view of the future relationship. I am sure that when the
to find myself in the same Lobby as the hon. Member Bill goes to the other place, the Government will be able
several times today. That is how important these issues to table an amendment to that effect. However, I want
are to protecting jobs, consumers and our economy. He to stay in order, so I shall now speak in favour of new
and I come from a place that has an emigration problem, clause 8, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for
and that problem is young people feeling the need to Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), and new
leave for opportunities elsewhere. That we have EU clauses 50 and 51 and new schedule 1, tabled by my
workers making their homes and paying their taxes hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh
where we live contributes to and enriches our economy, South West (Joanna Cherry).
our community and our cultural lives. Everything must
I will not detain the Commitee for too long, but will
be done to protect those already feeling the cost of
confine my remarks to amendments relating specifically
Brexit.
to membership of the single market and the customs
We spoke about the economic impact earlier, but I union and, subsequently, those relating to workers’
have spoken to EU citizens in my constituency who are rights. First, however, let me say that it is important to
already feeling the chill. Perhaps they are already being reflect on the new reality of where we are following the
passed over for jobs or promotion because their employers general election. Like it or not, the Conservatives must
do not know whether they will even be allowed to work accept that their Brexit message failed in Scotland.
here next year, or are asking, “Will I have to fill in lots They lost more than half their seats, and the SNP now
of forms in order to continue to employ you?” holds 80% of the Scottish seats in the House; but, in the
As I have said, we have covered an array of issues most undemocratic manner possible, the Tories are
which have been set out very well by a number of choosing to ignore Scottish voters by pressing ahead
Members, including the issue of child refugees. I do not with their hard Brexit plans. To put it simply, we are
mean this as an insult, but in many ways Conservative being dictated to by a minority party in Scotland.
Members are the dog that caught the car. They have During the election campaign, one of the Prime Minister’s
been chasing Brexit for a very long time, and now they more bizarre media stunts saw him drive a JCB digger
have it. They have the numbers to get it done, and with through a polystyrene wall to deliver his “Get Brexit
that comes a duty to protect people from it. I do not Done” message. It is now very clear that that wall
believe that there is any good way to do Brexit, but they represents Scotland, and that this Tory Government
have those numbers, and they have that duty to take the intend to forge ahead with their “Bulldozer Brexit”.
roughest edges off it for the most vulnerable people. Like so many people in Scotland, I distinctly remember
leaflets being delivered during the Scottish independence
David Linden: It is an honour to follow the hon. referendum campaign, imploring people to accept that
Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna). I agreed with a No vote was a vote to protect our rights as EU citizens
much of what she said. and to maintain our membership of the European
I refer Members to my new clause 56, entitled Union. Understandably—although it was not how I
“Implementation period negotiating objectives: annual voted—many of our fellow citizens voted No in good
celebration of Europe Day”. Unfortunately it was not faith, believing that that truly was the best way of
selected by the acting Chairman of Ways and Means— protecting our EU membership. Five years on, having
[Interruption.] The Minister is chuntering, which is voted to stay in the United Kingdom, the people of
unusual for him. Members of the European Research Scotland now face the harsh and sad reality of our
Group, in their infinite wisdom, talk of Big Ben chiming country being dragged out of the European Union by a
away on 31 January, but if the Minister and the Government British Government we did not vote for and by an
are serious about a strong future relationship with the intransigent Prime Minister who has no mandate from
European Union, it is important for them to consider Scotland for this utterly reckless move.
523 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 524
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
6.30 pm Foreign Secretary singled it out as one of 10 obstacles
Early on, following the Brexit result, the Scottish to British business. His paper, entitled “Escaping the
Government sought to compromise with the British Strait Jacket”, also urged the UK Government to ensure
Government to ensure that if Brexit were to be pursued, that this
it would be done in such a way that would cause as little “costly anti-jobs legislation cannot cause further damage to the
economic damage as possible for our nation and its economy”.
people. For those of us who closely followed the
consequences of the 2014 referendum, an expectation Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Is not
of compromise and respect was perhaps not an unrealistic the principle, though, whether it be on workers’ rights
ask. We were promised that, if we voted no in 2014, or anything else, that this House will be the place where
Scotland would not just be treated equally and with the decisions on those issues will be legislated upon? Of
respect; we were told that we would lead the United course there are political differences on all sorts of
Kingdom. When the First Minister of Scotland outlined issues. I happen to take issue with the way in which the
the compromise position that would see Scotland remain hon. Gentleman characterises them, but that is beside
in the single market and customs union, many people the point. However, this House will decide what the
thought, somewhat naively, that this would be considered workers’ rights for UK citizens should be. Surely that is
in good faith by the British Government. the aim of this House.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh David Linden: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
South West has already referred to the document for his intervention, but it is very much my concern that
“Scotland’s Place in Europe” from 2016. We asked for we have a Tory majority Government who will morph
that compromise to be considered with goodwill, but it into Thatcherism on steroids over the course of the next
was not. We were told that it was impossible. So imagine five years. For me, the idea that we just sit back and let
our surprise when this Prime Minister came to power the Prime Minister and the current Foreign Secretary
and negotiated an amendment to the withdrawal agreement dictate what direction we take with employment rights
that gives Northern Ireland unfettered access to the is not a chance that I am willing to take.
single market and customs union, unquestionably putting
Scotland at a competitive economic disadvantage. What Chris Stephens: Is it not the reality that in the last
we see in its starkest terms is an unequal and broken 20 years the advances in workers’ rights have come
United Kingdom, with Scotland being left out in the mainly from Europe? When we look at the fixed-term
cold. Every nation in the UK other than Scotland gets workers directive for those on temporary contracts or
compromise for what it voted for: Northern Ireland, doing part-time and agency work, we see that it was not
which voted to remain, gets access to the single market this place that was advancing the cause of those workers;
and the customs union; England, which voted for Brexit, it was the European Union and the European Parliament.
gets Brexit; Wales, which voted for Brexit, gets Brexit;
but Scotland, which voted to remain, gets economically David Linden: Absolutely. I think that was the very
trashed and utterly ignored. reason why 62% of people in Scotland voted to remain
New clause 8 is a last-ditch attempt from the SNP to in the European Union. They did not want workers’
make the British Government see sense and protect rights to be controlled somehow from London.
Scotland from the inevitable job losses after leaving the I want to go back to what I was saying about the right
single market and customs union. The cost of leaving hon. Member for Esher and Walton and his remarks
the single market and customs union is just too high to about the working time directive and some of the
contemplate for Scotland. Put simply, it means up to “obstacles”that he identified in relation to British businesses.
100,000 jobs being lost, including thousands in my own The fact that he did so in an article calling for a
fragile constituency of Glasgow East, so I implore hon. renegotiation of the UK’s future relationship with the
Members on the Government Benches—particularly European Union does not bode well now that he is in
those from Scotland who claim to come here to stand one of the highest offices of Government. Our hard-won
up for Scotland—to support new clause 8. I am looking workers’ rights secured from 40 years of EU membership
around the Chamber but I cannot actually see any cannot be forgotten, diluted or abolished by this right-wing
Conservative Members from Scotland, but perhaps that neo-liberal Government whom Scotland did not vote for.
will be no surprise. I therefore urge hon. Members to support new clause 51.
I wish to turn now to new clause 51, which seeks to Let us be honest: we know the results of tonight’s
protect workers’ rights. Quite simply, the British Divisions before they even take place. We need to face
Conservative Government cannot be trusted with workers’ the truth that this majority Brexiteer Government think
rights. Let us never forget that theirs was the Government that Scottish voters will simply lie down while they
who brought forward the draconian anti-trade union steamroller over their interests. The choice for the people
legislation. Trusting the Tories with workers’ rights is of Scotland could not be clearer, because Scotland has
akin to putting a lion in charge of an abattoir. We the unquestionable right to choose its own future. Do
already know what they think: it is on public record. we stay shackled to Brexit Britain and failed Tory
Take for example the current Foreign Secretary, the economics, or do we rejoin the family of European
right hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Dominic nations, which is outward-looking, progressive and treats
Raab). He has been attacking workers’ rights ever since its member states with respect, dignity and equality? Of
he became an MP in 2010. Nine years ago, he wrote a course, the Tories often accuse the SNP of trying to
research paper calling for break up Britain, but the reality is that it is the SNP
“a total opt-out from the working time directive”. who are driving the bulldozer. Make no mistake: the
Even though the working time directive ensures that Scottish independence referendum is coming, and the
millions of workers have the right to paid holidays, time passage of this legislation tomorrow will doubtless result
off work and guaranteed lunch and rest breaks, the current in people taking a very different view from that in 2014.
525 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 526
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I am grateful to be protection is primarily a devolved matter. The territorial
able to make a brief contribution this evening and to jurisdiction of the environment Bill that was in the
follow the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden), Queen’s Speech and that will be brought before this
who reminded me of the debates that we have been House will relate to England primarily and, to a small
having over the past three and a half years since the extent, Northern Ireland. I am rather surprised that
referendum. There was an overwhelming sense of déjà hon. Members representing the Scottish National party,
vu in that some Members who supported the remain who are here in force this evening and who have spoken
position at the 2016 referendum have still not properly before me, did not choose to raise that point.
recognised that time has moved on. I was one of those
who voted remain in the referendum and I, in common Alan Brown: It is great to hear that the right hon.
with many Conservative colleagues, am reconciled to Gentleman is such a great defender of devolution. As a
the fact that the British public voted to leave, as defender of devolution, does he respect the fact that the
demonstrated forcefully in the general election. The Scottish Parliament today rejected the UK Government’s
déjà vu that I am experiencing is that many of the legislative consent motion, and does he also respect the
arguments that we have heard ad nauseam for hours, right of Scotland’s people to choose their future?
days and weeks in this Chamber are still being trotted
out again in this debate today. Philip Dunne: As the Prime Minister said, far more
eloquently than I could, during Prime Minister’s questions
Several hon. Members rose— earlier today, the Scottish people did decide in 2014 and
that is the vote that should be respected by this House.
Philip Dunne: I want to make some progress. The [Interruption.] I am going to move back to my point
reason why I stood to speak this evening is that I made rather than engage—
my maiden speech in a debate on the EU in my first
month in this House 14 and a half years ago. It is David Linden rose—
therefore fitting that I should say something in this
debate just before we hopefully cease debating whether Philip Dunne: I am not going to take the hon. Gentleman’s
we are leaving the EU this month, because that matter intervention, because I know what he is going to say.
has now been resolved. In conclusion, will the Minister, if he has the opportunity
I want to make a specific contribution in relation to to do so, refer in his winding up speech to the environment
new clause 27, which was tabled by the hon. Member Bill that will shortly be brought before this House and
for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). explain the extent to which the protections sought in
I have considerable sympathy with the spirit and principles new clause 27 are likely to be enshrined in it?
underlying the new clause, which she spoke eloquently
on earlier, but the reason why I want to refer to it is to James Duddridge: It is always a pleasure to follow my
ask the Minister, in his summing up before the Committee right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne).
ends this evening, how the Government intend to take I think I will be able to reassure him throughout my
account of that spirit and intent in future legislation. I contribution, particularly on non-regression issues.
recognise that it is not appropriate to adorn this Bill We have heard a number of good speeches. In the
with commitments that have nothing to do with the days since the general election, I have sensed a change in
withdrawal agreement per se, but they are none the less tone in Parliament, an acceptance of that which is
worthy in themselves. happening, and a better debate across the House about
I draw the House’s attention to the part in the what is actually going to happen. [Interruption.] There
Conservative manifesto, on which I was proud to stand is a little bit of laughter, or chuntering, as the hon.
recently, that says: Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) would call
“we will legislate to ensure high standards of workers’ rights,
it. I have been an offender in that sense, but I do sense a
environmental protection and consumer rights.” small change in tone.
We have already heard from others this evening about I would like to speak to 21 new clauses, but I will
the existing higher level of workers’ rights that apply in focus my time because I understand that the House
the UK over and above those that are applied across the wants to make progress on the substantive new clauses,
EU, and we as a Government have an ambition to as opposed to those that are technically flawed. Some
maintain environmental protections in many areas at a are probing new clauses—that point has been made a
higher level than those that currently apply across the EU. number of times—and I hope they are more in number
than the substantive new clauses that will be pushed to
Debbie Abrahams: This is not meant to sound trite, a vote.
but a number of different commitments were made in I will first speak to new clause 2, tabled by the official
different manifestos. For example, the Conservatives Opposition, and to new clause 51 and new schedule 1,
party’s 2015 manifesto committed to halving the disability tabled by the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh
employment gap and to introducing new starter homes, South West (Joanna Cherry), who has been omnipresent
neither of which was delivered. This is about backing throughout the day. I am grateful to her for her contribution.
up commitments. If the Government are seriously The amendments relate to the protection of workers’
committed to this—I understand that the right hon. rights. As the Government have stated and the Prime
Gentleman certainly is—what is wrong with including it Minister has confirmed, we are committed to ensuring
in the Bill? that workers’ rights are protected as the UK leaves the
EU. I want to reiterate that and add some detail. There
Philip Dunne: I will give one example of what is is no suggestion that this Government would propose,
wrong with the hon. Lady’s new clause, and that is its or that this Parliament would allow, a change or regression
territorial jurisdiction. I remind her that environmental in workers’ rights to make them lower than currently
527 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 528
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
required by EU law. We have been clear, in fact, that we than what the Government have proposed with the
will protect and continue to improve workers’ rights. We Taylor review. If the European Parliament goes further,
do not need to be in the EU to do that; we can do it on will it be the UK Government’s aim at least to match
our own. what comes from the European Union?
David Linden rose—
James Duddridge: Later in my speech, I will highlight
James Duddridge: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, areas where we are going to go further. Perhaps I will
to save him from chuntering at me. give way to the hon. Gentleman again at that point if
what I say does not give him sufficient reassurance. The
David Linden: I am grateful to the Minister for allowing Government are committed to delivering high standards,
me to chunter on the record. He is talking about workers’ and I will provide a bit more detail when I come to talk
rights and what the Government are going to do. If we about other clauses.
are to believe the Government’s promises, we understand
they will be coming by way of the employment Bill. I turn to new clauses 3, 8 and 30, which relate to
When will that Bill be presented to the House and alignment with or continued membership of the EU
published? single market and customs union. I am grateful for the
confirmation that new clause 8 is a probing amendment.
James Duddridge: Very soon after the Queen’s Speech, The Prime Minister has set out a deal, and the political
and the timetable will come through the normal channels declaration contains a framework for a comprehensive
in the normal way. I am afraid that I cannot give the and ambitious free trade agreement. The result of the
hon. Gentleman any notice now, but if I get an inkling general election shows that, across the whole United
of when that Bill will be introduced, I will be sure to tell Kingdom, the public support that, notwithstanding the
him as soon as I can. As he has pointed out, we points that have been made in the Chamber today about
announced in the Queen’s Speech that we would bring different areas.
forward legislation to deliver on the good work plan That mandate did not include negotiating a customs
and the Taylor review. It will give workers in the UK the union or maintaining the UK’s place in the single
protections that they need in a changing world; I think market, as proposed in the new clauses. The public want
that there is an increasing recognition that the world of us to move on to negotiating the future relationship
work is changing. without any unnecessary hurdles, and that is what the
Government will do. Only by leaving the EU customs
6.45 pm
union and single market will the UK be able to pursue
Michael Tomlinson: Is it not precisely the point that it an ambitious free trade agreement and strike new trade
is for this Chamber and this sovereign Parliament to deals with new and existing global partners. The political
pass laws? My hon. Friend has mentioned the forthcoming declaration provides a framework for all that.
Bill, and this House of Commons will determine the
appropriate rights. We already enjoy enhanced rights, The political declaration also provides a framework
and we do not need to be a member of the European for security co-operation. That will include access to the
Union to have those rights. European arrest warrant, which several colleagues have
mentioned, as well as to Europol and SIS II. We have
James Duddridge: I thank my hon. Friend for his committed to being involved in them, and our European
succinct contribution. He is entirely right to say that, on partners have committed to engaging in that through
this issue, we will have the freedom to determine our the political declaration.
future. New clause 2 would require the UK to negotiate We have also agreed to put in place a streamlined
to become, effectively, a rule-taker in perpetuity. We extradition arrangement, on which we continue to work
would be subject to EU employment rules with little or with Europol and Eurojust. Beyond that, we have agreed
no influence over their development. The type of alignment to look at further areas of co-operation on the exchange
envisaged in the new clause is not necessary to maintain of information. Beyond SIS II, on the broader point raised
high standards and protection for UK workers. This by the hon. Member for Torfaen, it will also include
Parliament has set higher standards than those in many Icarus.
EU directives. For example, the UK’s race and sex
discrimination protections and equal pay rights were The detail, however, means this is best done in
decided before we entered the EU. co-operation over the period. After all, the point of the
level playing field is to do this in a paced way. As a
Nick Thomas-Symonds: I want to clarify what the cross-cutting Minister, I have engaged on this issue with
Minister said about dynamic alignment. Is he saying a number of Ministers who are engaged much more
that if rights were to be enhanced by the European directly. The hon. Gentleman will be reassured as this
Union, it would not be the Government’s intention to issue rolls out, but it is not for today’s Bill, although it is
follow? a perfectly acceptable placeholder for a probing amendment.
James Duddridge: No; that is not what I said, and our On new clause 29, I make it clear that we want an
intention is not as the hon. Gentleman suggests. But it ambitious future economic partnership with the EU
is for this Parliament to decide what it wants to do, that allows us to control our own laws, with the benefits
rather than simply following what an outside body of trade with other countries around the world. Adopting
recommends. this amendment would prevent that. Dynamic alignment
with future EU rules is not in the best interests of this
Chris Stephens: The Minister mentions the Taylor country. It is here, not in Brussels, where decisions
review. The European Parliament and Commission are should be made on the laws that govern our country.
debating similar issues and will offer something stronger That point has been ably made by other hon. Members.
529 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 530
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[James Duddridge] the general terms of participation, where appropriate,
throughout the implementation period. Ultimately, decisions
We will maintain and uphold high standards for aboutourparticipationwillbeamatterforwidernegotiations,
workers, consumers and the environment. We do not but we will look at all the available opportunities.
have to follow EU rules to achieve that; we can do it on
our own. We have made that clear in the revised political Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
declaration and through our commitment to introduce (SNP): The Minister mentions EU funding programmes.
legislation that will enshrine those high standards in Scotland has been benefiting from ¤872 million of EU
our laws. funding over the past seven years. In the highlands and
islands, this is a net contribution benefit and it has
Debbie Abrahams: Can the Minister confirm, as the changed communities across our entire area. Does the
right hon. Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) mentioned, Minister have any idea, and can he give us any inkling,
that the principles of new clause 27 will be included in as to when the shared prosperity fund is going to be
the environment Bill if they are not to be included in launched and what it will cover? Can he give us any
this Bill? information about that?
James Duddridge: Forgive me if I am not definitive James Duddridge: The hon. Gentleman makes an
and if I have not ticked off every single point, but the important point. In the broader arena, we will be taking
underlying point is that there will be no regression. We back control of our money and spending it as we
have committed to environmental rights, and I will go choose. As for his specific point, those decisions will
into more detail on how we will move ahead of what the come after a cross-governmental spending review and I
EU is currently doing and of what it proposes to do. am more than happy to commit the Treasury to write to
The answer, in spirit, is yes, but I do not want to give a him with any more detail if it is available.
resounding yes, just in case there is one comma in one
part of the hon. Lady’s amendment that deviates from New clauses 16 and 46 are on economic assessments,
what we are doing. with the latter standing in the name of Social Democratic
and Labour party Members. These would require
On the broader suggestions about participation in environmental and equality impact assessments. We
EU funding programmes, the political declaration envisages have had a few calls for impact assessments across the
close co-operation across a range of areas, including board, and I have made the point about their cost a
science—I am coming on to that—and education. The number of times. In some cases, we are already making
declaration already provides a possibility for programmes, commitments, and this would be bad government spend,
which will be done during the negotiation period. for the sake of producing a report. This debate is about
The political declaration sets out that the parties will the Bill and exiting the EU, whereas a lot of these
also explore co-operation between the United Kingdom reports would be about the future relationship, so this
and all the appropriate EU agencies. The nature of that Bill would be an inappropriate place to put provision
co-operation will be subject to negotiation. for these reports, even if they were the right thing to do.
It simply would not be possible to agree to publish a
Alan Brown: The Minister says we do not need to be detailed analysis of something that has not yet been
in the EU to protect environmental standards. I know agreed. In November 2018, the Government published
from my experience as a young civil engineer that the a detailed analysis covering a broad range of—
EU had to take a Tory Government to court to force [Interruption.]
action on cleaning up our bathing beaches across the
UK. That happened purely because we were a member The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means
of the EU; otherwise we would still have raw sewage in (Sir George Howarth): Order. It is a great discourtesy
the seas and waters around the UK. for people to be carrying on separate conversations
when any Member of the House is speaking.
James Duddridge: I will come on to the environment.
If I do not answer the hon. Gentleman’s underlying James Duddridge: Thank you, Sir George. I suspect
point, he should feel free to intervene again. that the Committee is encouraging me to make progress,
It is good to see the hon. Member for Oxford West and I will take the hint. I do ask Members to bear with
and Abingdon (Layla Moran) in her place, as she tabled me, because I am dealing with 21 new clauses and it is
new clause 10. The Government secured agreement to important to cover them, as they have all been tabled
participate in all elements of the Erasmus+ programme with seriousness and deserve the Government’s attention.
during the implementation period, and that will be On new clause 38, the Government have been committed
done in the future relationship. We made it clear that we to publishing an objective spending analysis of the
are open to maintaining and expanding co-operation UK’s withdrawal ever since the people voted to leave the
in education. We strongly believe, as she does, in the EU three and a half years ago.
value of international exchange, not just European
exchange, and it is very much part of our vision for On the economy, we have already spoken about the
global Britain to extend that concept, rather than simply objective analysis, and I am not going to say any more
looking at the narrow area of the United Kingdom. We on new clause 38. I will address human rights in more
believe that the UK and European countries should detail when dealing with a slightly later clause.
continue to give young people and students opportunities New clause 20 deals with mutual recognition and
around the world in universities and elsewhere—through raises a number of important issues relating to adequacy
other elements of Erasmus and support—post-Brexit. and equivalence with the EU in a number of areas for
The political declaration envisages the possibility of the future relationship. The Government fully agree
UK participation in EU programmes, and we will negotiate that in some areas it would be appropriate to agree
531 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 532
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
arrangements of the sort that my right hon. Friend the I thank the right hon. Member for Kingston and
Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) for tabling new clause 32,
mentions. For instance, the political declaration envisages on Euratom, but for a number of reasons it is neither
reciprocal adequacy decisions in the area of data protection. practical nor desirable to maintain the UK’s membership
However, the Government do not believe that adequacy when we leave the EU. I am conscious of the time, so as
decisions, mutual recognition or equivalence arrangements the right hon. Gentleman is not in the Chamber I am
are always in the best interests of the country, with one happy to write to him to detail the reasons.
example being where they rely on alignment with future I have already outlined a number of points on security,
EU rules. Although I understand the thrust of his so I shall not detain the Committee with any further
proposal, I do not think it is helpful to constrain the discussion of new clause 35.
Prime Minister and his negotiating team by prescribing
negotiating objectives too precisely. The Government Let me be very, very clear on new clause 45: the
will always listen to the views of my right hon. Friend Government have been consistently clear that when we
the Member for Haltemprice and Howden and we are are negotiating trade deals, the NHS will not be on the
particularly grateful for his stewardship of a Department table; the price that the NHS pays for drugs will not be
that is about to come to an end as a result of the success on the table; and the services that the NHS provides will
of his work and that of many other contributors, including not be on the table.
some fantastic civil servants and a truly exceptional Let me turn to the associated points on Horizon
Secretary of State, in the shape of my right hon. Friend 2020. I can write to the hon. Member for Oxford West
the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Steve and Abingdon with the detail. I have seen the value of
Barclay). It is always a good idea for me to be nice Horizon 2020 and I understand that it is not quite as
about my boss. simple as just the money; it is also about participation,
New clause 27 addresses further environmental issues. and I know the hon. Lady is passionate about that.
Sadly, the Government cannot support the new clause; There are similar points in relation to Erasmus and the
I shall go into some detail on why. The UK is an advanced other agencies, so I will not trouble the Committee too
modern economy with a long history of environmental much.
protections supported by strong legal frameworks that
in some cases predate the EU. We will shortly bring Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
forward an environment Bill that will set ambitious new (LD): The NHS is of course devolved in Scotland. May
domestic frameworks for environmental governance, I make a personal appeal, with which I am sure my
including—crucially—the establishment of the office colleagues in the Scottish National party will agree?
for environmental protection. The legislation will build Will the Government work as closely as possible with
on the 25-year environmental plan, which we are part-way the Scottish Government to ensure that the laudable
through—admittedly, it is early on in the 25-year plan—and position that the NHS should not be for sale applies to
provide the assurances that will be upheld. Scotland as much as it does to the UK?

Caroline Lucas: On the new environment Bill and the James Duddridge: I agree, and I am meeting with the
Office for Environmental Protection, will the Minister Scottish Government tomorrow so will make that point
guarantee that it really will have sharp teeth and the in my first sentence.
same enforcement powers that we have been used to I am conscious of the time and the fact that Members
seeing from the European Court of Justice? The previous will hear from me again after two more speeches, so I
environment Bill certainly did not have that kind of shall not go into any more detail on new clause 49
watchdog—it was much more of a poodle than a dog because citizens’ rights have been covered quite extensively.
with a bark. On observer status of the devolved Assemblies in the
EU, it would be wrong, given that, as a country, we are
James Duddridge: There ain’t no point in having one
leaving the European Union, to give special status to
of these things if it does not have teeth and if it does not
the devolved Assemblies. The devolved Assemblies will
bark and have a bit of bite, so I can commit the
come out with us.
Government on all those points. The Government are
committed to remaining a world-leader in environmental Finally, turning to new clause 50 on the charter of
protection once we have left the UK. Leaving the EU rights, there is no need for a report. We will maintain
gives us the opportunity to put the environment front our human rights and liberties. They are fundamental
and centre in our policy making. to the European Union and nothing that we do in
leaving the European Union changes that.
7 pm Sir George, I thank you and your team for standing
New clause 31 relates to the European Medicines in for this Bill. I think that there has been a change of
Agency and would require the appropriate authority to tone in the House. I am looking forward to serving in
take the necessary steps to implement an international this Parliament over the next period. I think that it is a
trade agreement that enables the UK fully to participate better place, and a better place for delivering Brexit. It is
in the EMA after Brexit day. This is another issue that now over to the House of Lords.
we need to consider during the implementation period;
it is not for this Bill, which is plainly and simply for The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means
getting Brexit done. It is not a Bill on which to hang lots (Sir George Howarth): Order. It is very kind of the
of other things. In its 21 clauses there are many areas of Minister to say so, but I do not think that I can take any
agreement. There are things that we support and things personal credit for the change in tone of the House.
that were in the Queen’s Speech and the Conservative
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
manifesto, but that does not mean that they need to be
in this specific Bill. The Committee divided: Ayes 255, Noes 344.
533 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 534
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Division No. 10] [7.05 pm Lake, Ben Rayner, Angela
Lammy, rh Mr David Reed, Mr Steve
AYES Lavery, Ian Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast
Law, Chris by Bambos Charalambous)
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Dodds, Anneliese
Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Reeves, Rachel
Abrahams, Debbie Doogan, Dave
Lewis, Clive Reynolds, Jonathan
Ali, Rushanara Dorans, Allan
Linden, David Ribeiro-Addy, Bell
Ali, Tahir Doughty, Stephen
Lloyd, Tony Rimmer, Ms Marie
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Dowd, Peter
Long Bailey, Rebecca Rodda, Matt
Amesbury, Mike Dromey, Jack
Lucas, Caroline Russell-Moyle, Lloyd
Anderson, Fleur Duffield, Rosie
Lynch, Holly Saville Roberts, rh Liz
Antoniazzi, Tonia Eagle, Ms Angela
MacAskill, Kenny Shah, Naz
Ashworth, Jonathan Eagle, Maria
MacNeil, Angus Brendan Sharma, Mr Virendra
Bardell, Hannah Eastwood, Colum
Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sheerman, Mr Barry
Barker, Paula Edwards, Jonathan
Mahmood, Shabana Sheppard, Tommy
Beckett, rh Margaret Efford, Clive
Malhotra, Seema Siddiq, Tulip
Begum, Apsana Elliott, Julie
Maskell, Rachael Slaughter, Andy
Benn, rh Hilary Elmore, Chris
Matheson, Christian Smith, Alyn
Betts, Mr Clive Eshalomi, Florence
McCabe, Steve Smith, Cat
Black, Mhairi Esterson, Bill
McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Nick
Blackford, rh Ian Evans, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain Smyth, Karin
Blackman, Kirsty Farron, Tim
McDonald, Andy Sobel, Alex
Blake, Olivia Farry, Stephen
McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Spellar, rh John
Blomfield, Paul Fellows, Marion
McDonald, Stuart C. Starmer, rh Keir
Bonnar, Steven Ferrier, Margaret
McDonnell, rh John Stephens, Chris
Brabin, Tracy Fletcher, Colleen
McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stevens, Jo
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Flynn, Stephen
McGovern, Alison Stone, Jamie
Brennan, Kevin Fovargue, Yvonne
McKinnell, Catherine Streeting, Wes
Brock, Deidre Foxcroft, Vicky
McLaughlin, Anne Stringer, Graham
Brown, Alan Foy, Mary Kelly
McMahon, Jim Sultana, Zarah
Brown, Ms Lyn Furniss, Gill
McMorrin, Anna Tami, rh Mark
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gibson, Patricia
Mearns, Ian Tarry, Sam
Bryant, Chris Gill, Preet Kaur
Miliband, rh Edward Thewliss, Alison
Buck, Ms Karen Grady, Patrick
Mishra, Navendu Thomas, Gareth
Burgon, Richard Grant, Peter
Monaghan, Carol Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Butler, Dawn Gray, Neil
Moran, Layla
Byrne, Ian Green, Kate Thompson, Owen
Morden, Jessica
Byrne, rh Liam Greenwood, Lilian Thomson, Richard
Morgan, Mr Stephen
Cadbury, Ruth Greenwood, Margaret Thornberry, rh Emily
Morris, Grahame
Callaghan, Amy Griffith, Nia Timms, rh Stephen
Murray, Ian
Cameron, Dr Lisa Gwynne, Andrew Trickett, Jon
Murray, James
Campbell, rh Sir Alan Haigh, Louise Turner, Karl
Nandy, Lisa
Carden, Dan Hamilton, Fabian Twigg, Derek
Newlands, Gavin
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hanna, Claire Vaz, rh Valerie
Nichols, Charlotte
Chamberlain, Wendy Hardy, Emma Webbe, Claudia
Nicolson, John
Champion, Sarah Harman, rh Ms Harriet West, Catherine
Norris, Alex
Chapman, Douglas Harris, Carolyn Western, Matt
O’Hara, Brendan
Charalambous, Bambos Hayes, Helen
Olney, Sarah Whitehead, Dr Alan
Cherry, Joanna Healey, rh John
Onwurah, Chi Whitford, Dr Philippa
Clark, Feryal Hendrick, Sir Mark
Oppong-Asare, Abena Whitley, Mick
Cooper, Daisy Hendry, Drew
Osamor, Kate Whittome, Nadia
Cooper, Rosie Hill, Mike
Oswald, Kirsten Williams, Hywel
Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg
Owatemi, Taiwo Wilson, Munira
Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hobhouse, Wera
Owen, Sarah Winter, Beth
Cowan, Ronnie Hollern, Kate
Peacock, Stephanie Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Coyle, Neil Hopkins, Rachel
Pennycook, Matthew Wishart, Pete
Crawley, Angela Hosie, Stewart
Perkins, Mr Toby
Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Huq, Dr Rupa Yasin, Mohammad
Phillips, Jess
cast by Peter Kyle) Hussain, Imran Zeichner, Daniel
Phillipson, Bridget
Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine
Cryer, John
Pollard, Luke Tellers for the Ayes:
Johnson, Dame Diana
Powell, Lucy Liz Twist and
Cummins, Judith Johnson, Kim
Qureshi, Yasmin Jeff Smith
Cunningham, Alex Jones, Darren
Daby, Janet Jones, Gerald
Davey, rh Sir Edward Jones, rh Mr Kevan NOES
David, Wayne Jones, Ruth Adams, Nigel Amess, Sir David
Davies, Geraint Jones, Sarah Afolami, Bim Anderson, Lee
Davies-Jones, Alex Kane, Mike
Afriyie, Adam Anderson, Stuart
Day, Martyn Keeley, Barbara
Ahmad Khan, Imran Andrew, Stuart
De Cordova, Marsha Kendall, Liz
Debbonaire, Thangam Khan, Afzal Aiken, Nickie Ansell, Caroline
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kinnock, Stephen Aldous, Peter Argar, Edward
Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kyle, Peter Allan, Lucy Atherton, Sarah
535 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 536
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Atkins, Victoria Dines, Miss Sarah Hinds, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen
Bacon, Mr Gareth Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hoare, Simon Millar, Robin
Bacon, Mr Richard Docherty, Leo Holden, Mr Richard Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Hollinrake, Kevin Milling, Amanda
cast by Leo Docherty) Donelan, Michelle Hollobone, Mr Philip Mills, Nigel
Bailey, Shaun Dorries, Ms Nadine Holloway, Adam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Baillie, Siobhan Double, Steve Holmes, Paul Mohindra, Gagan
Baker, Duncan Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, John Moore, Damien
Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, Paul Moore, Robbie
Baron, Mr John Drax, Richard Huddleston, Nigel Mordaunt, rh Penny
Bell, Aaron Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, Anne Marie
Benton, Scott Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Morris, David
Beresford, Sir Paul Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Morrissey, Joy
Berry, rh Jake Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Morton, Wendy
Bhatti, Saqib Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom Mullan, Dr Kieran
Blackman, Bob Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Mumby-Croft, Holly
Blunt, Crispin Edwards, Ruth Jenkin, Sir Bernard Mundell, rh David
Bone, Mr Peter Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Bowie, Andrew Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Murrison, rh Dr Andrew
Bradley, Ben Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert Nici, Lia
Bradley, rh Karen Eustice, George Johnson, Dr Caroline Nokes, rh Caroline
Brady, Sir Graham Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse
Brereton, Jack Evans, Mr Nigel Johnston, David O’Brien, Neil
Bridgen, Andrew Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew Offord, Dr Matthew
Brine, Steve Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David Opperman, Guy
Bristow, Paul Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay Paisley, Ian
Britcliffe, Sara Farris, Laura Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil
Brokenshire, rh James Fell, Simon Jupp, Simon Patel, rh Priti
Browne, Anthony Fletcher, Katherine Kawczynski, Daniel Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Mark Kearns, Alicia Pawsey, Mark
Buchan, Felicity Fletcher, Nick Keegan, Gillian Penning, rh Sir Mike
Buckland, rh Robert Ford, Vicky Knight, rh Sir Greg Penrose, John
Burghart, Alex Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian Percy, Andrew
Burns, rh Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Kruger, Danny Philp, Chris
Butler, Rob Frazer, Lucy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pincher, rh Christopher
Cairns, rh Alun Freeman, George Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Poulter, Dr Dan
Campbell, Mr Gregory Freer, Mike Lamont, John Pow, Rebecca
Carter, Andy Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert Prentis, Victoria
Cartlidge, James Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline Pritchard, Mark
Cash, Sir William Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quin, Jeremy
Cates, Miriam Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian Quince, Will
Caulfield, Maria Gibb, rh Nick Lewer, Andrew Randall, Tom
Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Brandon Redwood, rh John
Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Chope, Sir Christopher Girvan, Paul Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richards, Nicola
Churchill, Jo Glen, John Lockhart, Carla Richardson, Angela
Clark, rh Greg Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loder, Chris Roberts, Rob
Clarke, Mr Simon Gove, rh Michael Logan, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence
Clarke, Theo Graham, Richard Longhi, Marco Robinson, Gavin
Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grant, Mrs Helen Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Robinson, Mary
Clarkson, Chris Gray, James by Lee Rowley) Rosindell, Andrew
Cleverly, rh James Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Ross, Douglas
Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Green, rh Damian Lord, Mr Jonathan Rowley, Lee
Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffith, Andrew Loughton, Tim Russell, Dean
Colburn, Elliot Griffiths, Kate Mackinlay, Craig Rutley, David
Collins, Damian Grundy, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Sambrook, Gary
Costa, Alberto Gullis, Jonathan Maclean, Rachel Saxby, Selaine
Courts, Robert Halfon, rh Robert Mak, Alan Scully, Paul
Coutinho, Claire Hall, Luke Malthouse, Kit Seely, Bob
Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Selous, Andrew
Crabb, rh Stephen Hancock, rh Matt Mann, Scott Shannon, Jim
Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg Marson, Julie Sharma, rh Alok
Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Daly, James Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Simmonds, David
Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann Maynard, Paul Skidmore, rh Chris
Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe
Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Karl Smith, Greg
Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry
Davies, Philip Heappey, James McVey, rh Esther Solloway, Amanda
Davis, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon Menzies, Mark Spencer, Dr Ben
Davison, Dehenna Henry, Darren Mercer, Johnny Spencer, rh Mark
Dinenage, Caroline Higginbotham, Antony Merriman, Huw Stevenson, Jane
537 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 538
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Stevenson, John Walker, Sir Charles Chamberlain, Wendy Hayes, Helen
Stewart, Iain Walker, Mr Robin Champion, Sarah Healey, rh John
Stride, rh Mel Wallis, Dr Jamie Chapman, Douglas Hendrick, Sir Mark
Sturdy, Julian Warburton, David Charalambous, Bambos Hendry, Drew
Sunak, rh Rishi Watling, Giles Cherry, Joanna Hill, Mike
Sunderland, James Webb, Suzanne Clark, Feryal Hillier, Meg
Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Whately, Helen Cooper, Daisy Hobhouse, Wera
Syms, Sir Robert Wheeler, Mrs Heather Cooper, Rosie Hollern, Kate
Thomas, Derek Whittaker, Craig Cooper, rh Yvette Hopkins, Rachel
Throup, Maggie Whittingdale, rh Mr John Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hosie, Stewart
Timpson, Edward Wiggin, Bill Cowan, Ronnie Huq, Dr Rupa
Tolhurst, Kelly Wild, James Coyle, Neil Hussain, Imran
Tomlinson, Justin Williams, Craig Crawley, Angela Johnson, Dame Diana
Tomlinson, Michael Williamson, rh Gavin Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Johnson, Kim
Tracey, Craig Wilson, rh Sammy cast by Peter Kyle) Jones, Darren
Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Wood, Mike Cruddas, Jon Jones, Gerald
Trott, Laura Wragg, Mr William Cryer, John Jones, rh Mr Kevan
Truss, rh Elizabeth Cummins, Judith Jones, Ruth
Wright, rh Jeremy
Tugendhat, Tom Cunningham, Alex Jones, Sarah
Young, Jacob
Vara, Mr Shailesh Daby, Janet Kane, Mike
Zahawi, Nadhim
Vickers, Martin Davey, rh Sir Edward Keeley, Barbara
Vickers, Matt Tellers for the Noes: David, Wayne Kendall, Liz
Villiers, rh Theresa Tom Pursglove and Davies, Geraint Khan, Afzal
Wakeford, Christian James Morris Davies-Jones, Alex Kinnock, Stephen
Day, Martyn Kyle, Peter
De Cordova, Marsha Lake, Ben
Question accordingly negatived.
Debbonaire, Thangam Lammy, rh Mr David
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lavery, Ian
New Clause 10 Docherty-Hughes, Martin Law, Chris
Dodds, Anneliese Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
IMPLEMENTATION PERIOD NEGOTIATING OBJECTIVES:
Doogan, Dave Lewis, Clive
Dorans, Allan Linden, David
ERASMUS+
Doughty, Stephen Lloyd, Tony
‘(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to secure an Dowd, Peter Long Bailey, Rebecca
agreement within the framework of the future relationship of the Dromey, Jack Lucas, Caroline
UK and the EU before the end of the implementation period that Duffield, Rosie Lynch, Holly
enables the UK to participate in all elements of the Erasmus+ Eagle, Ms Angela MacAskill, Kenny
programme on existing terms after the implementation period
Eagle, Maria MacNeil, Angus Brendan
ends (“the Erasmus+ negotiations”).
Eastwood, Colum Mahmood, Mr Khalid
(2) A Minister shall lay before each House of Parliament a Edwards, Jonathan Mahmood, Shabana
progress report on the Erasmus+ negotiations within six months Efford, Clive Malhotra, Seema
of this Act being passed.’—(Layla Moran.) Elliott, Julie Maskell, Rachael
This new clause would require the Government to seek to negotiate Elmore, Chris Matheson, Christian
continuing full membership of the EU’s Erasmus+ education and Eshalomi, Florence McCabe, Steve
youth programme. Esterson, Bill McCarthy, Kerry
Brought up, and read the First time. Evans, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain
Farron, Tim McDonald, Andy
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Farry, Stephen McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
The Committee divided: Ayes 254, Noes 344. Fellows, Marion McDonald, Stuart C.
Ferrier, Margaret McDonnell, rh John
Division No. 11] [7.20 pm
Fletcher, Colleen McFadden, rh Mr Pat
Flynn, Stephen McGovern, Alison
AYES
Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Blomfield, Paul Foxcroft, Vicky McLaughlin, Anne
Abrahams, Debbie Bonnar, Steven Foy, Mary Kelly McMahon, Jim
Ali, Rushanara Brabin, Tracy Furniss, Gill McMorrin, Anna
Ali, Tahir Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gibson, Patricia Mearns, Ian
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Brennan, Kevin Gill, Preet Kaur Miliband, rh Edward
Amesbury, Mike Brock, Deidre Grady, Patrick Mishra, Navendu
Anderson, Fleur Brown, Alan Grant, Peter Monaghan, Carol
Antoniazzi, Tonia Brown, Ms Lyn Gray, Neil Moran, Layla
Ashworth, Jonathan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Green, Kate Morden, Jessica
Bardell, Hannah Bryant, Chris Greenwood, Lilian Morgan, Mr Stephen
Barker, Paula Buck, Ms Karen Greenwood, Margaret Morris, Grahame
Beckett, rh Margaret Burgon, Richard Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian
Begum, Apsana Butler, Dawn Gwynne, Andrew Murray, James
Benn, rh Hilary Byrne, Ian Haigh, Louise Nandy, Lisa
Betts, Mr Clive Byrne, rh Liam Hamilton, Fabian Newlands, Gavin
Black, Mhairi Callaghan, Amy Hanna, Claire Nichols, Charlotte
Blackford, rh Ian Cameron, Dr Lisa Hardy, Emma Nicolson, John
Blackman, Kirsty Campbell, rh Sir Alan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Norris, Alex
Blake, Olivia Carden, Dan Harris, Carolyn O’Hara, Brendan
539 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 540
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Olney, Sarah Starmer, rh Keir Clark, rh Greg Goodwill, rh Mr Robert
Onwurah, Chi Stephens, Chris Clarke, Mr Simon Gove, rh Michael
Oppong-Asare, Abena Stevens, Jo Clarke, Theo Graham, Richard
Osamor, Kate Stone, Jamie Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grant, Mrs Helen
Oswald, Kirsten Streeting, Wes Clarkson, Chris Gray, James
Owatemi, Taiwo Stringer, Graham Cleverly, rh James Grayling, rh Chris
Owen, Sarah Sultana, Zarah Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Green, rh Damian
Peacock, Stephanie Tami, rh Mark Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Griffith, Andrew
Pennycook, Matthew Tarry, Sam Colburn, Elliot Griffiths, Kate
Perkins, Mr Toby Thewliss, Alison Collins, Damian Grundy, James
Phillips, Jess Thomas, Gareth Costa, Alberto Gullis, Jonathan
Phillipson, Bridget Thomas-Symonds, Nick Courts, Robert Halfon, rh Robert
Pollard, Luke Thompson, Owen Coutinho, Claire Hall, Luke
Powell, Lucy Thomson, Richard Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hammond, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin Thornberry, rh Emily Crabb, rh Stephen Hancock, rh Matt
Rayner, Angela Timms, rh Stephen Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg
Reed, Mr Steve Trickett, Jon Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark
Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Turner, Karl Daly, James Harris, Rebecca
by Bambos Charalambous) Twigg, Derek Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann
Reeves, Rachel Twist, Liz Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon
Reynolds, Jonathan Vaz, rh Valerie Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John
Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Webbe, Claudia Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver
Rimmer, Ms Marie West, Catherine Davies, Philip Heappey, James
Rodda, Matt Western, Matt Davis, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon
Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Whitehead, Dr Alan Davison, Dehenna Henry, Darren
Saville Roberts, rh Liz Whitford, Dr Philippa Dinenage, Caroline Higginbotham, Antony
Shah, Naz Whitley, Mick Dines, Miss Sarah Hinds, rh Damian
Sharma, Mr Virendra Whittome, Nadia Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hoare, Simon
Sheerman, Mr Barry Williams, Hywel Docherty, Leo Holden, Mr Richard
Sheppard, Tommy Wilson, Munira Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Hollinrake, Kevin
Siddiq, Tulip Winter, Beth Donelan, Michelle Hollobone, Mr Philip
Slaughter, Andy Winterton, rh Dame Rosie Dorries, Ms Nadine Holloway, Adam
Smith, Alyn Double, Steve Holmes, Paul
Wishart, Pete
Smith, Cat Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, John
Yasin, Mohammad
Smith, Jeff Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, Paul
Zeichner, Daniel
Smith, Nick Drax, Richard Huddleston, Nigel
Smyth, Karin Tellers for the Ayes: Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil
Sobel, Alex Mr Alistair Carmichael and Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie
Spellar, rh John Christine Jardine Duguid, David Hunt, Jane
Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy
Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom
NOES
Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister
Adams, Nigel Blunt, Crispin Edwards, Ruth Jenkin, Sir Bernard
Afolami, Bim Bone, Mr Peter Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark
Afriyie, Adam Bowie, Andrew Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea
Ahmad Khan, Imran Bradley, Ben Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert
Aiken, Nickie Bradley, rh Karen Eustice, George Johnson, Dr Caroline
Aldous, Peter Brady, Sir Graham Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth
Allan, Lucy Brereton, Jack Evans, Mr Nigel Johnston, David
Amess, Sir David Bridgen, Andrew Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew
Anderson, Lee Brine, Steve Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David
Anderson, Stuart Bristow, Paul Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay
Andrew, Stuart Britcliffe, Sara Farris, Laura Jones, Mr Marcus
Ansell, Caroline Brokenshire, rh James Fell, Simon Jupp, Simon
Argar, Edward Browne, Anthony Fletcher, Katherine Kawczynski, Daniel
Atherton, Sarah Bruce, Fiona Fletcher, Mark Kearns, Alicia
Atkins, Victoria Buchan, Felicity Fletcher, Nick Keegan, Gillian
Bacon, Mr Gareth Buckland, rh Robert Ford, Vicky Knight, rh Sir Greg
Bacon, Mr Richard Burghart, Alex Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian
Badenoch, Kemi (proxy vote Burns, rh Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Kruger, Danny
cast by Leo Docherty) Butler, Rob Frazer, Lucy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi
Bailey, Shaun Cairns, rh Alun Freeman, George Laing, rh Dame Eleanor
Baillie, Siobhan Campbell, Mr Gregory Freer, Mike Lamont, John
Baker, Duncan Carter, Andy Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert
Baldwin, Harriett Cartlidge, James Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline
Baron, Mr John Cash, Sir William Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward
Bell, Aaron Cates, Miriam Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian
Benton, Scott Caulfield, Maria Gibb, rh Nick Lewer, Andrew
Beresford, Sir Paul Chalk, Alex Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Brandon
Berry, rh Jake Chishti, Rehman Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Bhatti, Saqib Chope, Sir Christopher Girvan, Paul Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Blackman, Bob Churchill, Jo Glen, John Lockhart, Carla
541 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 542
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Loder, Chris Quince, Will Wragg, Mr William Tellers for the Noes:
Logan, Mark Randall, Tom Wright, rh Jeremy Tom Pursglove and
Longhi, Marco Redwood, rh John Young, Jacob James Morris
Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Zahawi, Nadhim
by Lee Rowley) Richards, Nicola
Richardson, Angela
Lopresti, Jack Question accordingly negatived.
Roberts, Rob
Lord, Mr Jonathan
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Loughton, Tim
Robinson, Gavin New Clause 29
Mackinlay, Craig Robinson, Mary
Mackrory, Cherilyn Rosindell, Andrew IMPLEMENTATION PERIOD NEGOTIATING OBJECTIVES:
Maclean, Rachel Ross, Douglas
LEVEL PLAYING-FIELD
Mak, Alan Rowley, Lee
Malthouse, Kit Russell, Dean “(1) It shall be an objective of the Government to secure an
Rutley, David agreement within the framework of the future relationship of the
Mangnall, Anthony
Sambrook, Gary UK and EU to secure agreements that achieve the following
Mann, Scott outcomes—
Marson, Julie Saxby, Selaine
Scully, Paul (a) close alignment with the European Union single
May, rh Mrs Theresa market, underpinned by shared institutions and
Seely, Bob
Mayhew, Jerome
Selous, Andrew obligations, with clear arrangements for dispute
Maynard, Paul Shannon, Jim
resolution;
McCartney, Jason Sharma, rh Alok (b) dynamic alignment on rights and protections for
McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, rh Alec workers, consumers and the environment so that UK
McPartland, Stephen Simmonds, David standards at least keep pace with evolving standards
Skidmore, rh Chris
across the EU as a minimum, and;
McVey, rh Esther
Smith, Chloe (c) participation in EU agencies and funding programmes,
Menzies, Mark
Smith, Greg including for the environment, education, science,
Mercer, Johnny and industrial regulation.
Merriman, Huw Smith, Henry
Solloway, Amanda (2) A Minister of the Crown shall lay before each House of
Metcalfe, Stephen Parliament a progress report on each of the outcomes listed in
Spencer, Dr Ben
Millar, Robin subsection (1) (a) to (c) within 4 months of this Act being passed,
Spencer, rh Mark
Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stevenson, Jane and subsequently at intervals of no more than 2 months.”—
Milling, Amanda Stevenson, John (Layla Moran.)
Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain This new clause would require the UK Government to seek close
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stride, rh Mel alignment with the EU single market on key level playing-field
Mohindra, Gagan Sturdy, Julian provisions such as workers’ rights and environmental and consumer
Moore, Damien Sunak, rh Rishi standards and protections as part of its negotiations for the future
Sunderland, James relationship with the EU.
Moore, Robbie
Mordaunt, rh Penny Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Brought up, and read the First time.
Syms, Sir Robert
Morris, Anne Marie Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Thomas, Derek
Morris, David
Throup, Maggie The Committee divided: Ayes 250, Noes 345.
Morrissey, Joy Timpson, Edward
Morton, Wendy
Division No. 12] [7.34 pm
Tolhurst, Kelly
Mullan, Dr Kieran Tomlinson, Justin
AYES
Mumby-Croft, Holly Tomlinson, Michael
Mundell, rh David Tracey, Craig Abbott, rh Ms Diane Brown, Ms Lyn
Murray, Mrs Sheryll Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Abrahams, Debbie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Trott, Laura Ali, Rushanara Bryant, Chris
Murrison, rh Dr Andrew
Truss, rh Elizabeth Ali, Tahir Buck, Ms Karen
Nici, Lia
Tugendhat, Tom Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Burgon, Richard
Nokes, rh Caroline Amesbury, Mike
Vara, Mr Shailesh Butler, Dawn
Norman, rh Jesse Anderson, Fleur
Vickers, Martin Byrne, Ian
O’Brien, Neil Vickers, Matt Antoniazzi, Tonia Byrne, rh Liam
Offord, Dr Matthew Villiers, rh Theresa Ashworth, Jonathan
Callaghan, Amy
Opperman, Guy Wakeford, Christian Bardell, Hannah
Cameron, Dr Lisa
Paisley, Ian Walker, Sir Charles Barker, Paula
Campbell, rh Sir Alan
Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Beckett, rh Margaret
Carden, Dan
Patel, rh Priti Wallis, Dr Jamie Begum, Apsana
Chamberlain, Wendy
Paterson, rh Mr Owen Warburton, David Benn, rh Hilary
Champion, Sarah
Pawsey, Mark Watling, Giles Betts, Mr Clive
Chapman, Douglas
Penning, rh Sir Mike Webb, Suzanne Black, Mhairi
Charalambous, Bambos
Whately, Helen Blackford, rh Ian
Penrose, John Cherry, Joanna
Wheeler, Mrs Heather Blackman, Kirsty
Percy, Andrew Clark, Feryal
Whittaker, Craig Blake, Olivia
Philp, Chris Cooper, Daisy
Whittingdale, rh Mr John Blomfield, Paul
Pincher, rh Christopher Cooper, Rosie
Wiggin, Bill Bonnar, Steven
Poulter, Dr Dan Cooper, rh Yvette
Wild, James Brabin, Tracy
Pow, Rebecca Williams, Craig Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Corbyn, rh Jeremy
Prentis, Victoria Williamson, rh Gavin Brennan, Kevin Cowan, Ronnie
Pritchard, Mark Wilson, rh Sammy Brock, Deidre Coyle, Neil
Quin, Jeremy Wood, Mike Brown, Alan Crawley, Angela
543 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 544
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Johnson, Dame Diana Powell, Lucy Tarry, Sam
cast by Bambos Johnson, Kim Qureshi, Yasmin Thewliss, Alison
Charalambous) Jones, Darren Rayner, Angela Thomas, Gareth
Cruddas, Jon Jones, Gerald Reed, Mr Steve Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Cryer, John Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Thompson, Owen
Cummins, Judith Jones, Ruth by Bambos Charalambous) Thomson, Richard
Cunningham, Alex Jones, Sarah Reeves, Rachel Thornberry, rh Emily
Daby, Janet Kane, Mike Reynolds, Jonathan Timms, rh Stephen
Davey, rh Sir Edward Keeley, Barbara Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Trickett, Jon
David, Wayne Kendall, Liz Rimmer, Ms Marie Turner, Karl
Davies, Geraint Khan, Afzal Rodda, Matt Twigg, Derek
Davies-Jones, Alex Kinnock, Stephen Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Twist, Liz
Day, Martyn Kyle, Peter Saville Roberts, rh Liz Vaz, rh Valerie
De Cordova, Marsha Lake, Ben Shah, Naz Webbe, Claudia
Debbonaire, Thangam Lammy, rh Mr David Sharma, Mr Virendra West, Catherine
Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Lavery, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Western, Matt
Docherty-Hughes, Martin Law, Chris Sheppard, Tommy Whitehead, Dr Alan
Dodds, Anneliese Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Siddiq, Tulip Whitford, Dr Philippa
Doogan, Dave Lewis, Clive Slaughter, Andy Whitley, Mick
Dorans, Allan Linden, David Smith, Alyn Whittome, Nadia
Doughty, Stephen Lloyd, Tony Smith, Cat Williams, Hywel
Dowd, Peter Long Bailey, Rebecca Smith, Jeff Wilson, Munira
Dromey, Jack Lucas, Caroline Smith, Nick Winter, Beth
Duffield, Rosie Lynch, Holly Smyth, Karin Winterton, rh Dame Rosie
Eagle, Ms Angela MacAskill, Kenny Spellar, rh John
Wishart, Pete
Eagle, Maria MacNeil, Angus Brendan Stephens, Chris
Yasin, Mohammad
Eastwood, Colum Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stevens, Jo
Zeichner, Daniel
Edwards, Jonathan Mahmood, Shabana Stone, Jamie
Efford, Clive Malhotra, Seema Streeting, Wes Tellers for the Ayes:
Elliott, Julie Maskell, Rachael Sultana, Zarah Mr Alistair Carmichael and
Elmore, Chris Matheson, Christian Tami, rh Mark Christine Jardine
Eshalomi, Florence McCabe, Steve
Esterson, Bill McCarthy, Kerry
NOES
Evans, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain
Farron, Tim McDonald, Andy Adams, Nigel Bridgen, Andrew
Farry, Stephen McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Afolami, Bim Brine, Steve
Fellows, Marion McDonald, Stuart C. Afriyie, Adam Bristow, Paul
Ferrier, Margaret McDonnell, rh John Ahmad Khan, Imran Britcliffe, Sara
Fletcher, Colleen McFadden, rh Mr Pat Aiken, Nickie Brokenshire, rh James
Flynn, Stephen McGovern, Alison Aldous, Peter Browne, Anthony
Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Allan, Lucy Bruce, Fiona
Foxcroft, Vicky McLaughlin, Anne Amess, Sir David Buchan, Felicity
Foy, Mary Kelly McMahon, Jim Anderson, Lee Buckland, rh Robert
Furniss, Gill McMorrin, Anna Anderson, Stuart Burghart, Alex
Gibson, Patricia Mearns, Ian Andrew, Stuart Burns, rh Conor
Gill, Preet Kaur Miliband, rh Edward Ansell, Caroline Butler, Rob
Grady, Patrick Mishra, Navendu Argar, Edward Cairns, rh Alun
Grant, Peter Monaghan, Carol Atherton, Sarah Campbell, Mr Gregory
Gray, Neil Moran, Layla Atkins, Victoria Carter, Andy
Green, Kate Morden, Jessica Bacon, Mr Gareth Cartlidge, James
Greenwood, Lilian Morgan, Mr Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Cash, Sir William
Greenwood, Margaret Morris, Grahame Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Cates, Miriam
Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian cast by Leo Docherty) Caulfield, Maria
Gwynne, Andrew Murray, James Bailey, Shaun Chalk, Alex
Haigh, Louise Nandy, Lisa Baillie, Siobhan Chishti, Rehman
Hamilton, Fabian Newlands, Gavin Baker, Duncan Chope, Sir Christopher
Hanna, Claire Nicolson, John Baldwin, Harriett Churchill, Jo
Hardy, Emma Norris, Alex Baron, Mr John Clark, rh Greg
Harman, rh Ms Harriet O’Hara, Brendan Bell, Aaron Clarke, Mr Simon
Harris, Carolyn Olney, Sarah Benton, Scott Clarke, Theo
Hayes, Helen Onwurah, Chi Beresford, Sir Paul Clarke-Smith, Brendan
Healey, rh John Oppong-Asare, Abena Berry, rh Jake Clarkson, Chris
Hendrick, Sir Mark Osamor, Kate Bhatti, Saqib Cleverly, rh James
Hendry, Drew Oswald, Kirsten Blackman, Bob Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey
Hill, Mike Owatemi, Taiwo Blunt, Crispin Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse
Hillier, Meg Owen, Sarah Bone, Mr Peter Colburn, Elliot
Hobhouse, Wera Peacock, Stephanie Bottomley, Sir Peter Collins, Damian
Hollern, Kate Pennycook, Matthew Bowie, Andrew Costa, Alberto
Hopkins, Rachel Perkins, Mr Toby Bradley, Ben Courts, Robert
Hosie, Stewart Phillips, Jess Bradley, rh Karen Coutinho, Claire
Huq, Dr Rupa Phillipson, Bridget Brady, Sir Graham Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey
Hussain, Imran Pollard, Luke Brereton, Jack Crabb, rh Stephen
545 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 546
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Crosbie, Virginia Hands, rh Greg Marson, Julie Sambrook, Gary
Crouch, Tracey Harper, rh Mr Mark May, rh Mrs Theresa Saxby, Selaine
Daly, James Harris, Rebecca Mayhew, Jerome Scully, Paul
Davies, David T. C. Hart, Sally-Ann Maynard, Paul Seely, Bob
Davies, Gareth Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Jason Selous, Andrew
Davies, Dr James Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Karl Shannon, Jim
Davies, Mims Heald, rh Sir Oliver McPartland, Stephen Sharma, rh Alok
Davies, Philip Heappey, James McVey, rh Esther Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Davis, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon Menzies, Mark Simmonds, David
Davison, Dehenna Henry, Darren Mercer, Johnny Skidmore, rh Chris
Dinenage, Caroline Higginbotham, Antony Merriman, Huw Smith, Chloe
Dines, Miss Sarah Hinds, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Greg
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hoare, Simon Millar, Robin Smith, Henry
Docherty, Leo Holden, Mr Richard Miller, rh Mrs Maria Solloway, Amanda
Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Hollinrake, Kevin Milling, Amanda Spencer, Dr Ben
Donelan, Michelle Hollobone, Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Spencer, rh Mark
Dorries, Ms Nadine Holloway, Adam Mohindra, Gagan Stevenson, Jane
Double, Steve Holmes, Paul Moore, Damien Stevenson, John
Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, John Moore, Robbie Stewart, Iain
Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, Paul Mordaunt, rh Penny Stride, rh Mel
Drax, Richard Huddleston, Nigel Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian
Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, David Sunak, rh Rishi
Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Morrissey, Joy Sunderland, James
Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy Swayne, rh Sir Desmond
Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, rh Jeremy Mullan, Dr Kieran Syms, Sir Robert
Dunne, rh Philip Hunt, Tom Mumby-Croft, Holly Thomas, Derek
Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Mundell, rh David Throup, Maggie
Edwards, Ruth Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murray, Mrs Sheryll Timpson, Edward
Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tolhurst, Kelly
Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Nici, Lia Tomlinson, Justin
Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert Nokes, rh Caroline Tomlinson, Michael
Eustice, George Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Tracey, Craig
Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil Trevelyan, Anne-Marie
Evans, Mr Nigel Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew Trott, Laura
Evennett, rh Sir David Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Truss, rh Elizabeth
Everitt, Ben Jones, rh Mr David Paisley, Ian Tugendhat, Tom
Fabricant, Michael Jones, Fay Parish, Neil Vara, Mr Shailesh
Farris, Laura Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, rh Priti Vickers, Martin
Fell, Simon Jupp, Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Vickers, Matt
Fletcher, Katherine Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Villiers, rh Theresa
Fletcher, Mark Kearns, Alicia Penning, rh Sir Mike Wakeford, Christian
Fletcher, Nick Keegan, Gillian Penrose, John Walker, Sir Charles
Ford, Vicky Knight, rh Sir Greg Percy, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin
Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian Philp, Chris Wallis, Dr Jamie
Francois, rh Mr Mark Kruger, Danny Pincher, rh Christopher Warburton, David
Frazer, Lucy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Poulter, Dr Dan Watling, Giles
Freeman, George Laing, rh Dame Eleanor Pow, Rebecca Webb, Suzanne
Freer, Mike Lamont, John Prentis, Victoria Whately, Helen
Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert Pritchard, Mark Wheeler, Mrs Heather
Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline Quin, Jeremy Whittaker, Craig
Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quince, Will Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian Randall, Tom Wiggin, Bill
Gibb, rh Nick Lewer, Andrew Redwood, rh John Wild, James
Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Brandon Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Williams, Craig
Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Dr Julian Richards, Nicola Williamson, rh Gavin
Girvan, Paul Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richardson, Angela Wilson, rh Sammy
Glen, John Lockhart, Carla Roberts, Rob Wood, Mike
Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loder, Chris Robertson, Mr Laurence Wragg, Mr William
Gove, rh Michael Logan, Mark Robinson, Gavin
Wright, rh Jeremy
Graham, Richard Longhi, Marco Robinson, Mary
Young, Jacob
Grant, Mrs Helen Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Rosindell, Andrew
Zahawi, Nadhim
Gray, James by Lee Rowley) Ross, Douglas
Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Rowley, Lee Tellers for the Noes:
Green, rh Damian Lord, Mr Jonathan Russell, Dean Tom Pursglove and
Griffith, Andrew Loughton, Tim Rutley, David James Morris
Griffiths, Kate Mackinlay, Craig
Grundy, James Mackrory, Cherilyn Question accordingly negatived.
Gullis, Jonathan Maclean, Rachel
Halfon, rh Robert Mak, Alan The Speaker resumed the Chair.
Hall, Luke Malthouse, Kit
Hammond, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Bill reported, without amendment.
Hancock, rh Matt Mann, Scott Bill to be read the Third time tomorrow.
547 European Union (Withdrawal 8 JANUARY 2020 548
Agreement) Bill
DEFERRED DIVISIONS Speaker’s Statement
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing
7.48 pm
Order No. 41A(3)),
Mr Speaker: We now come to the announcement of
That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred the results of the election of Deputy Speakers. Before
divisions) shall not apply to the motions in the name of Secretary
Stephen Barclay relating to the European Union (Withdrawal)
I announce the results, I would like to thank the right
(No.2) Act 2019 and the European Union (Withdrawal) hon. Members for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) and
Act 2018, and to the motion in the name of Secretary Julian for Knowsley (Sir George Howarth) and the hon. Member
Smith relating to the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) for South West Devon (Sir Gary Streeter) for serving as
Act.—(Iain Stewart.) temporary Deputy Speakers.
Question agreed to. I will now proceed to read the results. The first to be
elected is Dame Eleanor Laing, who is also the first ever
woman to be elected Chairman of Ways and Means.
[Applause.] No clapping, whatever we do!
I will now announce the next positions. Dame Rosie
Winterton was elected First Deputy Chairman of Ways
and Means, and Mr Nigel Evans was elected Second
Deputy Chairman.
I congratulate those who have been elected, and look
forward to working with the new Speaker’s team. As I
said earlier, this is the first time a woman has been
elected to the position of Chairman of Ways and Means,
so it is an historic occasion for the House.
The results of the count will be made available in the
Vote Office as soon as possible, and will be published
online.

Dame Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): On a

point of order, Mr Speaker. I just wanted to stand up in
the Chamber, because it is my one opportunity to do so
in very many years.
Let me, on behalf of all the candidates who took part
in the election, thank the Clerks for the way in which
they conducted it, and for the swift way in which they
produced the results. Let me also thank all the other
candidates for the courtesy with which the campaign—
however short it may have been—was fought. And let
me say to you, Mr Speaker, that you and I have worked
very well together for a great many years, and I am
honoured and delighted to be re-elected as part of your
team. I know that you intend to do a lot to bring this
place into the 21st century and restore faith in our
democracy, and I look forward to doing all that I can to
help you.
549 8 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal) Acts 550

European Union (Withdrawal) Acts vote them down three times. Those who participated in
those votes are well represented here. They included the
7.52 pm Prime Minister, who is not.
The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill,
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting which we have been debating over the past two days,
the European Union (James Duddridge): I beg to move, repeals both section 13 of the European Union
That this House approves, for the purposes of section 2(2)(a) (Withdrawal) Act and the Benn Act in its entirety. I do
of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019, the report not want to repeat the debate that we have been having
made by the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union or pre-empt the exciting debate that we can anticipate
under section 2(1) of that Act, published on 8 November 2019
tomorrow on Third Reading, but it is disappointing
titled “Report under section 2(1) of the European Union (Withdrawal)
(No.2) Act 2019”. that the Government have refused to accept a single one
of the many sensible and constructive amendments to
Mr Speaker: With this we may take the following the Bill that were tabled. We will not oppose the motions
motion: today, but I would say that with Parliament’s role in
ratifying the withdrawal agreement soon to be completed,
That this House, for the purposes of section 13(6)(a) of the
European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, has considered the
it is deeply regrettable that the Government have used
statement made by the Secretary of State for Exiting the European the withdrawal agreement Bill to undermine parliamentary
Union under section 13(4) of that Act on 8 November 2019 titled democracy so severely by reducing our role in overseeing
“Statement under section 13(4) of the European Union (Withdrawal) the negotiations on the future relationship. If anybody
Act 2018”. thinks that the past few years of negotiating the first
stages of our departure from the European Union have
James Duddridge: In a bid to improve my popularity, been difficult, that will be nothing compared with the
Mr Speaker, I will be very brief, and, following speeches negotiations yet to come. The decisions over our future
from the Front Benchers and a few others, we should be relationship with the EU will have consequences for
able to conclude the debate quickly. generations, and this is not the time to lock Parliament
The Government were required by law to table these out of decision making or diminish our role in scrutinising
motions, which relate to a report and statement published the Government.
by the Government on 8 November 2019. Last October, Securing Parliament’s role in the first phase of the
Parliament failed to approve the revised deal negotiated negotiations was dragged out of the Government kicking
by the Prime Minister. That triggered a requirement for and screaming, both through the Supreme Court and
the Government to seek an extension of the article 50 by votes in this place. The right response for a Government
period to 31 January, which in turn triggered reporting after an election in which they won a clear majority of
requirements under section 13 of the European Union seats but failed to win a majority of votes would be to
(Withdrawal) Act 2018 and section 2 of the European move forward with humility and attempt to build consensus,
Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. The statement so I am disappointed that instead they are responding
outlined how the Government proposed to proceed in by threatening the judiciary and excluding Parliament.
the light of the House of Commons vote in October. A We have seen over the past few years that the Government
report for the purposes of section 2 was also published, will do all they can to avoid their responsibilities to
explaining what progress had been made in negotiations Parliament, up to and including proroguing Parliament
on the UK’s relationship with the EU. Both are available to avoid obligations in the legislation under consideration
on gov.uk, and are also in the Vote Office. now. I hope that Conservative Members will reflect on
Let me add, for the benefit of Members who have not whether voting to lock themselves out of any influence
read the documents, that they make it clear that the over the Brexit process fulfils the ambition of parliamentary
Government have no further plans to change the terms sovereignty for which so many of them have argued over
of the withdrawal agreement regarding our exit on the previous few years.
31 January. The reason is quite simple: we will be 7.57 pm
leaving the European Union with the Prime Minister’s
deal at the end of this month. Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I want to
contribute briefly to the debate. It is quite right that
7.54 pm there is a bit of a sombre and reflective mood in the
House as we consider these motions, because they are
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I am conscious the legacy of the cross-party efforts that were made
that the House likes nothing more than an opportunity during the last Parliament to ensure and secure as much
to debate our departure from the European Union, and scrutiny as possible of the Government’s Brexit proposals.
I shall make some fairly brief remarks in response to Given that the whole point of Brexit, as we heard earlier
what the Minister has said. today, is supposed to be about taking back control and
We are having this debate because of the Opposition’s the restoration of parliamentary sovereignty, it was
success in the previous Parliament, when we worked absolutely right that those efforts were made. We should
closely with colleagues in all parties—including Conservative pay tribute to those Members, many of whom are not
Members—to secure a meaningful vote on the withdrawal here any more, whose legacy is still being felt as a result
agreement, and to prevent a no-deal Brexit. It is not just of the Grieve amendment in 2018 and the Benn Act in
those on our side of the House who have benefited from 2019. I also want to pay tribute to my former colleague
the provisions in section 13 of the European Union Stephen Gethins, who was part of so much of that
(Withdrawal) Act 2018 and from the European Union cross-party co-operation.
(Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Members from across The establishment of those amendments and that
the House were given the opportunity to question Ministers legislation pushed the boundaries and set new precedents,
on the various withdrawal agreements and, indeed, to and they are going to be particularly important in the
551 European Union (Withdrawal) Acts 8 JANUARY 2020 552

post-Brexit world in holding this Executive to account Northern Ireland (Executive Formation
for the power grab that they are now perpetrating etc) Act 2019
through the Bill that we have discussed today. It is right,
as we go through the remaining stages of the Brexit
legislative process, that the mood is one of reflection 8 pm
and consideration and not one of triumphalism or of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern
the bombast that we hear from the Maastricht rebels Ireland (Mr Robin Walker): I beg to move,
and the European Research Group on the Government That this House has considered the Report pursuant to section 3(5)
side of the House. They might want Big Ben to chime at of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019,
11 pm on 31 January, although I am not sure they will which was laid before this House on Thursday 19 December.
be successful with that request. Perhaps they should not I am taking this debate on behalf of the Secretary of
be, because we know the trouble that Brexit is going to State for Northern Ireland, who is currently in Belfast
bring. They might want to reflect, as they continue with in talks with the Northern Ireland parties and working
their campaign, on the old admonishment: do not ask towards getting Stormont back up and running.
for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. On 18 December, the Northern Ireland Office published
Question put and agreed to. on gov.uk a report setting out the latest position on
progress on Executive formation, transparency of political
donations, higher education and a Derry/Londonderry
SECTION 13(6)(A) OF THE EUROPEAN UNION university, presumption of non-prosecution and troubles
(WITHDRAWAL) ACT 2018 prosecution guidance, and the abortion law review. The
Resolved, Northern Ireland Office has laid copies of that report in
That this House, for the purposes of section 13(6)(a) of the both Houses now that Parliament has returned. Copies
European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, has considered the of all the previous reports are available on gov.uk. It
statement made by the Secretary of State for Exiting the European was the seventh and final report published on these
Union under section 13(4) of that Act on 8 November 2019 titled issues in line with our obligations under the Northern
“Statement under section 13(4) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.
Act 2018”.—(James Duddridge.)
It is this Government’s absolute priority to get Stormont
back up and running before the 13 January deadline.
Colleagues across the House understand the issues at
stake here. Failure to restore the institutions will raise
difficult and urgent decisions about the future governance
of Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State remains in
Belfast today to facilitate talks. All five party leaders
remain positively engaged in the process, and our assessment
is that it remains possible but challenging for the parties
to secure a political agreement before the deadline.
We all recognise how closely the deadline is looming. If
13 January passes without agreement, the Secretary of
State will fall under a legal obligation to call an Assembly
election. I am hopeful that, as we have heard in previous
debates of this nature, Members from all parties will
join me in urging the parties to come to an accommodation
so that a restored Assembly and Executive can get on
with resolving the real challenges that continue to frustrate
the daily lives of the people of Northern Ireland.
Turning to the abortion report, the Government are
working towards the laying of regulations for a new
legal framework for the provision of abortion services
in Northern Ireland, as required by the 2019 Act. The
new framework will be in force by 31 March 2020.
Women and girls who are seeking access to services in
the meantime can do so in England free of charge, with
all costs of the procedure, including travel and, where
needed, accommodation, paid for by the Government.
Arrangements can be made by contacting the central
booking service, and we have published the contact
telephone number and the services provided on gov.uk.
The public consultation on the legal framework for
the provision of such services closed on 16 December.
During the consultation period, officials continued engaging
with health professionals, individuals who have been
affected by the law, civil society organisations, and
women’s groups—including Doctors for Choice, Alliance
for Choice, Here NI and the Women’s Resource and
Development Agency—on the proposals set out in the
consultation document. We are currently analysing the
responses, having received good levels of engagement
553 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 554
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
[Mr Robin Walker] due to the lack of devolved government. Restoring the
Executive would remove blockages and, with Executive
from many different viewpoints. As was made clear in approval, allow funding to be unlocked for expanding
earlier debates and, indeed, the foreword to the consultation, higher education provision in the north-west.
we were seeking views on the question of how the Turning to payments to victims of troubles-related
framework can best be delivered in Northern Ireland, incidents, in October the Government launched a public
not on whether the reform should be happening. consultation on a scheme for regular payments to, or in
The Government’s response to the consultation will respect of, individuals living with serious disablement
be published in due course. We are happy to continue caused by troubles-related incidents. The proposed scheme
discussions with interested parties as the regulations are is intended to provide acknowledgment to those injured
taken forward in line with the requirement under section in troubles-related incidents through no fault of their
9 of the Act that the recommendations of the 2018 UN own. The consultation closed on 26 November. Responses
CEDAW Report are implemented in respect of Northern are being carefully considered and will inform final
Ireland by 31 March 2020. The Government will continue decisions regarding the scheme. The consultation proposed
to abide by our legal obligations. not to make payments to individuals with a criminal
On the presumption of non-prosecution and troubles conviction directly related to the incident in which they
prosecution guidance, reforming the legacy system in sustained the injury. We will make regulations by the
Northern Ireland remains a top priority for the UK end of January, as specified in the Northern Ireland
Government. We will always owe a vast debt of gratitude (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. The scheme will
to the heroism and bravery of the soldiers and police then be open for applications no later than the end of
officers who upheld the rule of law and were themselves May 2020. Victims injured through no fault of their
accountable to it. The Government are strongly opposed own deserve this form of acknowledgment and measure
to our service personnel and veterans being subject to of additional financial support, which is a core element
the threat of vexatious litigation in the form of repeated of the Stormont House agreement proposals to help
investigations and potential prosecution arising from address the legacy of the troubles. It remains vital that
historical military operations many years after the events we make progress on this and related matters.
in question. The Government are also under a duty to make
The Government recognise the concerns that have regulations to provide for same-sex marriage and opposite-
been expressed about how the current system is operating sex civil partnerships in Northern Ireland by 13 January
in Northern Ireland and are committed to seeking the 2020. On 23 December 2019 the Northern Ireland Office
prompt implementation of the Stormont House agreement laid regulations before Parliament that mean that, from
proposals on legacy in order to provide both reconciliation next week, on 13 January, same-sex civil marriage and
for victims and greater certainty for military veterans. opposite-sex civil partnerships will be lawful in Northern
Any legislation that improves the legacy system in Northern Ireland. Couples will therefore be able to register their
Ireland will need to be agreed by the UK Parliament intent to enter into such a relationship, with a minimum
and have the support of a restored Northern Ireland 28-day notice period required. Therefore, as previously
Executive. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland stated, we expect ceremonies will be able to take place
is working closely with ministerial colleagues, the Northern during the week of Valentine’s Day.
Ireland parties and the Irish Government to that end. There are still two key issues on which we will be
We take very seriously the issue of transparency of seeking the views of the people of Northern Ireland
donations to Northern Ireland parties. Northern Ireland before we legislate further, namely same-sex religious
parties are now subject to the same reporting requirements marriage, together with the appropriate protections,
as other parties across the UK. That is a significant step and the right to convert from a civil partnership to a
forward, but the question of retrospectively opening up marriage, and vice versa. We want to consult on both
records from 2014 remains genuinely difficult. At a time matters in order to ensure that the legislation takes
when threats to elected representatives are all too common, proper account of the specific circumstances in Northern
we must be very careful that anything we do should not Ireland and provides adequate religious protections.
lead to intimidation against members of the public who The consultation will seek views from religious bodies
donated to parties. We will consult the Northern Ireland and individuals on how religious same-sex marriage will
parties in due course on any future change to the be provided for in Northern Ireland, and how protections
legislation, but I hope the House will understand that can best be achieved. We also want to get the right
for now our focus must remain on securing agreement approach for conversion entitlements for Northern Ireland,
to restore devolved government to the people of Northern given the different approaches taken across the rest of
Ireland. the UK. The Government hope to be able to launch a
On higher education and a Derry/Londonderry short consultation on those two issues from mid-January,
university, there has been no progress since the last and we will bring forward regulations as soon as we are
report on the subject, which was laid on 4 December. able to do so in 2020.
No business case has been submitted, so we are not able I am very pleased to have the opportunity not only to
to assess proposals. The Government have been clear on discuss these important matters but, more importantly,
their commitment to turbo-charging the economy and to hear from Northern Ireland Members, and I recognise
levelling up all regions across the UK. The Derry and the sincere and deeply held views on some of the topics
Strabane city deal and the inclusive future fund, which discussed. In conclusion, I reiterate the Government’s
formed a £105 million economic package for the north-west, undiminished commitment to see Stormont back up
is further evidence of that commitment. We are aware and running again. Northern Ireland needs its own
of the support that exists for the extension of higher locally elected representatives making decisions on local
education provision in the north-west, and this is another issues and making Northern Ireland’s voice heard across
example of a project in Northern Ireland facing barriers the UK.
555 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 556
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
8.8 pm We now need to know how that process is working
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): May I congratulate the out. Where are we up to with interim payments for
Minister on making a 20-minute speech in just over victims of institutional abuse? Where are we with the
eight minutes? He has been on his feet all day. This is an creation of a redress board to develop a well-worked
important report and he has raised a number of important formula for those who suffered, some of them because
issues. of the incompetence of the statutory authorities and
I will begin where the Minister began. I hope he will some, sadly, at the hands of those who were there to
at least be able to help the House in response to some of offer care?
my questions. Under the legislation that this House One way or another, our society owes support to
passed to provide safe and legal abortion for women in what is now an ageing population. Their numbers are
Northern Ireland, the UK Government are obliged to decreasing day by day, and I hope the Minister can give
make provision for that service in Northern Ireland by us some satisfaction.
31 March. As the Minister told the House, the consultation The Minister may not be totally apprised of the
on the matter has concluded. Will he guarantee that if question of business rates, which has emerged in recent
the House has to discharge that legislative duty, the hours. The announced business rate revaluation seemingly
consultation will be brought to the House in time for us results in severe increases in payments, particularly for
to examine the results before taking the necessary legislative certain parts of retail, small shops and the pub and
steps? I hope we recognise that by that time, the Stormont hotel trade. There will ultimately be an obligation on a
Assembly may well be back in operation, and if reformed Assembly to deal with this issue, but I would
the Assembly were to legislate contrary to the UK like the Minister to take on board the fact that this can
Government’s establishment of a process for safe and have a detrimental impact.
legal abortion, our efforts would have been futile. I ask Looking to our own constituencies, most Members
for the establishment of the closest possible working know that a small shop, a pub or a hotel can be central
relationship between the Westminster Government and to keeping our town centres and communities alive. It is
a newly formed Executive in Stormont to ensure a important in my constituency and it is obviously important
smooth transition, so that we can deliver to the women in Northern Ireland that we have some sense of proportion
of Northern Ireland what the House dictated: safe and in any change to business rates.
legal abortion from 1 April.
The Minister spoke about the prosecution of those Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP):
who perpetrated violence during the troubles. I quote One issue that the Minister did not mention is that of
from the report that is before the House tonight, in those born in Northern Ireland who identify as Irish
which the UK Government quite rightly say that they and as Irish citizens, and therefore as European Union
“will continue to seek better ways of dealing with legacy issues
that provide better outcomes for victims and survivors”.
citizens, as exemplified by the DeSouza case. Does the
shadow Secretary of State agree that it is now time that
I am grateful for the Minister’s comments about the
the report promised on the Floor of the House by the
potential for payment to victims of the troubles. That is
previous Prime Minister, and which many of us have
right and proper. Many of those who suffered are no
asked for, is presented and put in the Library?
longer with us—some of them for obvious reasons, but
some simply because of the passage of time—so they
cannot avail themselves of any compensation, but a Tony Lloyd: The hon. Member is absolutely right in
group of people depend on progress being made in this his demand. The DeSouza case shames us as a society.
area. The Minister’s words will be welcome, but we need We ought to resolve the issue not only for that particular
to see real progress. couple—I have met them, of course—but more generally.
This matters to those who consider themselves to be
Of course, outcomes for victims and survivors include,
Irish. It is part of the Good Friday/Belfast agreement,
where appropriate, the prosecution of those who have
and it is something to which every party in this House is
perpetrated violence against them or their families; that
committed. We ought to make sure that our obligations
is a legitimate demand. Although we want, as the
are translated into something of practical value to the
Minister rightly said, to avoid vexatious prosecutions,
DeSouza campaign. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s
let us be absolutely clear that we in this House are not
intervention.
turning our back on the rule of law. Those who are
guilty of the most heinous crimes, such as murder and Health service pay in Northern Ireland has now
manslaughter, must still face the full force of the law. reached crisis proportions. A hospital porter or cleaner
There can be no statute of limitations that provides an in Northern Ireland, for example, is paid a wage of
artificial form of protection, because that would be some £16,943, whereas their comparator in England
unacceptable to the House and the public and incompatible and Wales is on £17,650, some £700 more—the pay is
with our obligations under international law. better again in Scotland. I could go through the situation
I move on briefly to an allied question—payments for for healthcare assistants and administrative workers,
victims of institutional abuse. The Minister may not be and it is the same for nurses and paramedics.
able to give me a full answer tonight, but it would be The Minister used senior nurses as a reference point.
helpful to see what the process of payments for victims A senior nurse in Scotland, England and Wales is paid
of such abuse will look like. The Opposition were very £30,401 a year, whereas a senior nurse in Northern
happy to work with the Government on the matter Ireland is paid significantly less, £27,772, which cannot
before Christmas. Generally speaking, I am against the be acceptable. I know of nobody who accepts that there
overly rapid emergence of legislation, because it can is justification for that position. None of the parties in
cause problems later on, but we quite rightly conspired the Northern Ireland Assembly accepts that position,
to insist that that legislation was put on the statute book and the Opposition do not accept that position. This
before the House was dissolved for the general election. has to be resolved.
557 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 558
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
[Tony Lloyd] carefully to what he said about the options available to
the Secretary of State, but I think that the Government,
The Minister began by saying that the Secretary of this House and all the parties in Northern Ireland, more
State is in Belfast to try to make sure that the all-party of which are now represented in this House than was
talks come to fruition so that we see the Assembly the case prior to December’s election, collectively owe a
restored, which is the conclusion we all want to see. If it duty to the people of Northern Ireland to make sure
happens, the Minister can say that the issue will be that that part of the United Kingdom is properly governed.
translated over to the Assembly, as is right and proper. I say to the Minister and to the parties in Northern
However, I warn him that if the Assembly is not back Ireland that if by next Monday we do not see an ability
up and running in a short time, and if we face the to restore the Stormont Executive, I do not think, for
possibility of prolonged delay for an election, it will be reasons I will set out in a moment, that either option of
incumbent upon the Westminster Government to look kicking the can down the road by extending the deadline
at the situation. Those nurses, administrative workers, or having another Assembly election will be up to the
hospital porters and cleaners should not have to wait task. I fear that we will be confronting a binary choice
for an indefinite amount of time in the future, particularly of getting the Assembly up and running or having, to
given that, almost uniquely, nurses have gone on strike some extent, Executive decisions taken by Ministers
because of the length of time they have faced this accountable to this House.
disparity of income and unfairness. It is always convenient Let me just set out one area where I think that is
for Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office to say, necessary, and here I pick up from what the shadow
“This really ought to be a devolved issue”, but this is Secretary of State said. I agree with what he said about
not necessarily a devolved issue. Clearly, if the Assembly the important health workforce issues in Northern Ireland.
is back up and running, there is a strong argument that The fact that nurses there are on strike is incredibly
it should be resolved by the Assembly, as long as the regrettable, but worse is the performance of the health
resource base is there for it to make those pay increases. service.
If the Assembly is not up and running, the legal basis Let us look at two particular factors. One is the
exists for this to be delivered by Whitehall and the length of time for which people are waiting for treatment.
Westminster Government. I am happy to go through In the most recent set of statistics for England, 1,233 people
that with the Minister and the Secretary of State in due were waiting more than a year for treatment—to see a
course. It is important that the signal is given now to consultant. I understand that in Northern Ireland—I
people in the health service in Northern Ireland that do not think I need to elaborate on the difference in
their long struggle for fairness will shortly come to a population sizes to many Members—the number of
conclusion. people waiting for more than a year to see a consultant
I will conclude with one further remark. My hon. is 103,000. That is more than a third of all the people
Friend the shadow Secretary of State for Wales became waiting for health treatment. The cancer waiting times
a grandmother this morning. Her grandchild Jesse Kearney mean that a fifth of those people who receive a cancer
has an Irish father and a Welsh mother—a mother from diagnosis receive that diagnosis in the emergency department
Great Britain. I would like to believe that the Jesse of a hospital. I do not know what the precise statistics
Kearney generation will grow up in a world very different are, but it seems likely that thousands of people are
from the one we have at the moment. I hope they will therefore dying unnecessarily because they are not receiving
grow up in one where we have a robust Stormont timely health treatment.
Assembly and system of governance in Northern Ireland, I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that the
one that allows us to put the history we are talking lack of devolved government in Northern Ireland—with
about tonight, be it the history of violence or the legacy Ministers accountable to the people of Northern Ireland
of abuse, so far in the past that a generation can grow and able to take the necessary decisions to reform the
up in hope, in a transformed society. That is what this health service, implement pay awards, recruit the necessary
House has to be about, and it is why we cannot have staff and make sure that the health service is running
excuses from those on the Treasury Bench or from the efficiently—is leading directly to the unnecessary deaths
parties in Stormont. We now have to see the Secretary of people in Northern Ireland. If we are unable to see
of State’s genuine efforts, which I applaud, brought to a the re-establishment of a Stormont Executive and Assembly
conclusion so that Northern Ireland can begin to move next week, we cannot in good conscience allow the
forward again with a properly working Assembly, which situation to continue if it means the early deaths of
can begin to deliver the transformation it needs not citizens of part of our own country.
simply for hospital workers, but for the people of Northern Ministers and the Government are going to be faced
Ireland. with a very difficult decision. If we do not see a restored
Executive and Assembly, it is not going to be a realistic
8.22 pm option—unless we are literally on the cusp of an
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I rise to agreement—just to kick the can down the road again
speak in this debate for several reasons. I applaud the and extend the deadline or have elections. I have looked
fact that the Minister is here for this debate and the carefully at the result of the general election in Northern
Secretary of State is not; that is not something we Ireland and how it compares to the result of the most
usually say, but given the task the Secretary of State is recent Assembly election. When I look at the difference
engaged with and his focus on it, it is welcome. I share in performance of the relevant political parties, it does
the Minister’s hope that the talks conclude with a not seem to me that there is anything about an Assembly
positive outcome and that prior to next Monday’s deadline election taking place in the present political circumstances
an agreement will be reached to secure the Executive in that would lead to an outcome that would enable the
Northern Ireland, as devolved government is unquestionably formation of an Executive after such an election, which
the right long-term solution for Northern Ireland. I listened cannot take place next week.
559 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 560
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): there is the potential for progress, but time is running
While the right hon. Gentleman is elaborating on that very short. There is no doubt that people in Northern
point, does he agree that, however much people might Ireland, as we have heard, have paid the price of an
relish an election, if one were to be held in the current absence of devolved government. This is now the best
context, it is difficult to see that the exposition of the and perhaps the final opportunity to restore these
problems we have faced over the past three years would institutions, so it is critical that every effort is made to
change to any degree either before, during or after such secure a deal.
an election? That deal will not come without significant effort and
Mr Harper: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. As I without compromise from all of those involved. There
said, I have looked at the balance of opinion on the is an indication that a joint paper will be published by
political parties and it seems to me that although the the two Governments later in the week. The movements
exact number of seats they have would differ, the broad of the Secretary of State are welcome, because we need
order of ranking would not change. It also seems to me to be clear that the consequences of not securing a deal
that there is a danger that an election would cause before 13 January could be much more profound than
people to dig in further on the contentious issues—on simply another Stormont election. We know that the
which I shall not elaborate—that are preventing the Secretary of State previously suggested that, in the
coming together of the political parties to form an continued absence of a Government at Stormont and
Executive and get the Assembly up and running. People with Brexit requiring significant Executive direction, a
would be less capable of the necessary compromises return to some form of direct rule will be required. We
because parties would have staked out positions in an have heard from the Opposition spokesperson who has
election campaign. expressed similar thoughts. Any return of direct rule
would undermine previous political and peace agreements,
To the Minister and my valued colleagues from Northern
and that would be most regrettable.
Ireland, all I can say is that we are approaching a
decision point at which, if the parties in Northern The Scottish Government are absolutely committed
Ireland are unable to re-establish an Executive and an to all the institutions of the Good Friday agreement
Assembly, I fear that the Government, at least in the and to making sure that their stability and the stability
short term, are going to have to come to the House with of the peace process is not undermined amidst the
a proposition on the necessity of some level of direct Brexit chaos. I am sure that the Minister knows that
rule by Westminster Ministers. I completely agree that both the EU and the US Congress have said that there
that is not the right long-term solution for Northern will not be a free trade agreement with the UK if Brexit
Ireland but, for the reasons I have set out—even if for no in any way undermines the integrity of the peace process.
reason other than the performance of the health service, Just like in Scotland, the recent general election has
which is close to falling over—we cannot in good conscience again reinforced the Northern Ireland electorate’s choice
allow that situation to continue. The shadow Secretary to back parties that wish to retain EU membership. It is
of State set out some other relevant issues. wrong and undemocratic that Brexit is being imposed
My second and final point is to ask the Minister whether on Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is absolutely
he is able to furnish the House with any further details crucial that the UK Government respect the wishes of
about progress on the legacy prosecution issues. I noticed the people in Northern Ireland and the pillars of the
in the report that, during the general election campaign, peace process. They must find ways to avoid interfering
officials were continuing to work through options. I with the delicate balance of these relationships, which
recognise from what he said earlier that what he can say have been so hard won.
is probably limited because obviously we would want to As part of a deal to restore Stormont, it has been
make progress only with the agreement of a re-established widely speculated that Northern Ireland businesses would
Executive and Assembly. Therefore, I accept that he will receive Brexit mitigation and, indeed, Northern Ireland
not be able to set out any details, but I was hoping that business organisations have said that they will seek
he could at least set out the progress that had been made more than £100 million to mitigate the effects on the
in exploring the options. I would also like some hint of a economy. We do not begrudge that financial help, but if
timetable so that, if we were able to establish devolved there is to be a Brexit mitigation package for Northern
Government again, we could learn how quickly the Ireland, that is an admission of the costs to business
Government could make progress on bringing forward and communities, so such a fund must also be replicated
a scheme to resolve those legacy issues around prosecutions. in Scotland.
Clearly,forthoseindividualswhoaredirectlyaffected—whether Indeed, as part of the Prime Minister’s deal, Northern
in live cases or in their worry about the future—some Ireland firms will already have access to the European
understanding of how quickly those issues can be brought single market, which is denied to Scottish businesses,
to a conclusion would be welcomed. and that risks placing them at a major competitive
Those are the two issues that I wanted to bring in disadvantage. If we reflect briefly on the last Parliament,
front of the Minister and the House. I also wanted to the UK Government failed to ensure that the funds
set them out in front of colleagues from Northern handed to the DUP were subject to the Barnett formula,
Ireland, because we are approaching a very grave point which again meant that Scotland’s budget was denied
where I fear that we may have to take decisions with more than £3 billion.
some very significant consequences for the future. This debate will be of interest to viewers in Northern
Ireland in particular. As has been discussed, some of
8.31 pm those viewers may well be nurses, who perhaps would
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): People in usually be on shift, but today are on strike. That strike
Northern Ireland and further afield will be watching of nurses in Northern Ireland today is absolutely testament
this closely with great hopes for progress. It seems that to the need for decisions to be made locally. People in
561 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 562
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
[Kirsten Oswald] right to conscientiously object to engagement in abortion
treatment procedures may not be given the same respect
other places might be unaware of the strike, or they that it has here. There were also references in the
might be unaware of the unprecedented nature of the consultation questionnaires to “exclusion zones”—the
strike, which is in protest against pay and staffing levels subject of a consultation here not long ago, in response
that the nurses say are unsafe. There is no doubt at all to which, after consideration, the then Home Secretary
that the lack of government and political direction is decided to take no action.
deepening the crisis in Northern Ireland’s public services Section 9(4) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation
and their capacity to deliver for people. For example, etc) Act says:
the latest hospital waiting time figures show that nearly “The Secretary of State must by regulations make whatever
300,000 people in Northern Ireland are waiting for a other changes to the law of Northern Ireland appear to”
first appointment with a consultant; that represents him
a sixth of the whole population. On average, there is a “to be necessary or appropriate for the purpose of ”
four-year wait for knee and hip operations. implementing paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW—
These issues are incredibly serious, and only a functioning convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination
and devolved Government are capable of tackling them. against women—report. The CEDAW report—I will
It cannot be left to a dysfunctional and disinterested not go into the debate that we had on more than one
UK Government to do so. That prospect in itself must occasion in this place about the authority of that report—
give renewed impetus to all the parties involved in the requires abortion to be legalised on three grounds. It
talks to do everything they can to ensure that they come says that Northern Ireland law should be amended to
to a compromise, so that everyone in Northern Ireland provide abortion on expanded grounds in “at least” these
can be rewarded through the return of their own three circumstances: “rape and incest”;
Government. Previous talks have overcome divisions “severe fetal impairment, including fatal fetal abnormality”;
much more significant than the issues currently blocking and
progress, so we know that this can be done, and it really “threat to the pregnant woman’s physical or mental health.”
must. However, having read the consultation and, as I say,
8.36 pm considered the very wide questions that have been raised
within it, I am deeply concerned that the abortion
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Pages 9 and 10 of the framework that may be proposed by the Northern Ireland
report we are considering address the Northern Ireland Office might go far beyond those three circumstances.
Office’s consultation on new abortion regulations for For example, it may allow for access to abortion on
Northern Ireland. In addressing this subject, it is important request for any reason up to 12 weeks’ gestation, and
to remember that abortion is a devolved policy competence then up to 24 weeks, on the basis of the standard in the
in Northern Ireland and has been for almost 100 years. rest of Great Britain under section 1(1)(a) of the Abortion
In 2016, the democratically-elected Northern Ireland Act 1967. That standard, which goes wider than the
Assembly voted by a straightforward, cross-community CEDAW report proposes, is
majority not to change its abortion law in any way. In
“that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and
this context, the Government were absolutely right—as that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater
the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical
Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and the former or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children
Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right hon. of her family”.
Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Speaking as someone who has for a number of years
Bradley), stated on a number of occasions in this place engaged on this subject as chair of the all-party pro-life
when abortion in Northern Ireland was raised—that group—although I realise that we are currently in a
this is a devolved matter for a restored Northern Ireland situation where all the all-party groups have to be
Assembly to consider. However, that was—sadly, in my reinstated—I know that that standard has effectively
view, as I stated at the time—ignored by the 2017-19 led to abortion on request. I am not aware of a single
Parliament, which went ahead and passed the provision case in the past 10 years where a woman who has
that the Government are now required to introduce by requested abortion in England and Wales has been denied
31 March this year: a new legal framework for abortion one for failing to reach that standard. The CEDAW
law for Northern Ireland, under section 9 of the Northern report does not require it to be introduced in Northern
Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. Ireland; nor, as I say, does it make reference to the
To that end, the Government very promptly launched conscience clause or exclusion zones.
a consultation in November. Having looked at the May I urge the Minister to consider that it is possible
consultation and the questions that it asked, I was for the Northern Ireland Office to adopt a much more
deeply concerned by its width and breadth. It was much restrictive standard than the one proposed in the
wider than section 9 strictly requires, raising concerns in consultation document, while fulfilling the requirements
my mind about possible changes to abortion law in of section 9? If the Government are to act consistently
Northern Ireland going much further than section 9 with their many-times-stated commitment to respect
anticipated. I urge Ministers not to take this course of devolution, I would have thought it made sense for them
action when the final regulations are published, and I to introduce a new regulatory framework that departs
will now go into some detail on the matter. from previous Northern Ireland abortion regulations
The consultation made references to clinicians not only to the degree that the 2017-19 Parliament insisted
being involved in abortion procedures on the grounds on, but no further.
of conscience—something that has been respected, certainly Of course, I recognise that the use of the words “at
here, for over 50 years. I know that a number of clinicians least” in the CEDAW report does not prevent the
in Northern Ireland are deeply concerned that their Government from going further, but I suggest to the
563 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 564
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
Minister that the words “necessary or appropriate” in since the current law was repealed in October. Can the
the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Minister confirm how the Government know this and
do so. I urge him to consider that as well as, obviously, that doctors are not carrying out abortions, since there
the spirit of devolution and the fact that when that Act is no requirement for them to notify the Government or
was voted on just a few months ago, every single member the Northern Ireland Department of what they might
of the 2017-19 Parliament who represented a Northern or might not be doing at the present time?
Ireland constituency in Westminster voted against it.
Law change has been imposed on Northern Ireland by Several hon. Members rose—
a coalition of MPs representing seats in England, Scotland
and Wales. I think that is inappropriate and wrong, and Mr Speaker: We now come to a maiden speech from
I said so at the time. Indeed, I said that I felt that the Carla Lockhart.
whole clause was out of scope—but I appreciate that
you were not in the Chair at the time, Mr Speaker. 8.47 pm
In closing, I want to ask one or two specific questions
of the Minister. The Government have reported, as he Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the
mentioned in his opening remarks, that the consultation Minister for his update. I count it an honour and a
document has been produced after discussion with a privilege to stand in this place today—the mother of all
range of stakeholders. Yesterday, in the other place, Parliaments—to make my maiden speech as the first ever
Lord Duncan of Springbank said: female MP to represent the good people of the Upper Bann
constituency.
“Discussions with interested parties will continue as the regulations
are taken forward”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 7 January 2020; I want to begin by thanking all those constituents
Vol. 801, c. 152.] who voted for me on 12 December. They have placed
I would be grateful if the Minister wrote to me to let me their trust in me, and I want to say thank you to them. I
know which stakeholders were involved prior to publication will be a champion for them, and I will not let them
of the consultation document, whether there were any down. I promise to be a strong and articulate voice for
others apart from those he mentioned in his opening all within my constituency. I am an unapologetic Unionist,
remarks and who the interested parties will be in discussions but I commit to working hard and delivering for all the
with the Government on the regulations. people in Upper Bann.
I want to pay tribute to my predecessor, Mr David
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Simpson. David was a strong advocate for Upper Bann
Lesmahagow) (SNP): I thank the hon. Lady for giving and, indeed, Northern Ireland. He served with distinction
way; she is making a very good speech. I have been in this House for over 14 years. I wish David and his
chair of the disability all-party parliamentary group for family well in his retirement from this place.
the last two parliamentary terms, and I have been I started my political career at the age of 21 as a local
contacted by the Don’t Screen Us Out community, who councillor representing Lurgan and progressed to the
are particularly concerned about the scope of the regulations Northern Ireland Assembly in 2016. My passion for
and the impact on families with Down’s syndrome politics and the Union started when I was much younger.
children. I hope that the Minister will comment on I had the privilege of growing up right in the very heart
whether there has been consultation with that group, of Ulster in a working-class family, and I am proud of
because, as I am sure the hon. Lady would agree, that the roots and the grounding that I have. Growing up
would be very helpful. near the border with the Republic of Ireland and knowing
many families who had loved ones murdered, I was
Fiona Bruce: I thank the hon. Lady for making that always very aware of the troubles in Northern Ireland
really important point. It is because I am so concerned and why we had such a love for the Union and our
about a number of issues relating to these proposals, British way of life.
and I appreciate that the Minister may not be able to My early influencers were two men who served in this
respond to our specific points today, I wonder whether House with honour and integrity over many years: the
he would be willing to meet me, the hon. Lady and late Lord Bannside and the right hon. Peter Robinson,
other concerned colleagues about the potential extent the former MP for Belfast East—someone who has
of these changes. I also hope that he will reflect on the been a constant source of encouragement to me. I have
appropriateness of bringing forward proposals that do a long way to go before I can even get close to the level
not undermine devolution any more than section 9 of impact that they made in this House. Both defended
requires. the Union and stood up for Northern Ireland with
every fibre of their body, and in that same vein I too will
Mr Robin Walker: Given that I may have very limited do just that.
time to respond in detail at the end of the debate, I want It is with regret that I do not sit on these Benches
to say that I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend and with the former DUP Member for Belfast South and
the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and my party’s deputy leader, the former Member for Belfast
Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) to discuss these matters North, the right hon. Nigel Dodds. He is an extremely
further. capable orator and someone who contributed greatly to
this House. It is unfortunate that Belfast North has now
Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for that. no representation on these Benches.
Lord Duncan said yesterday in the other place: It is no secret that Northern Ireland has had its
“There has been no registered growth in illegal or back-street difficulties in the past, but I am proud of our wee
abortions in Northern Ireland”—[Official Report, House of Lords, country. It is the best place on earth, with Upper Bann
7 January 2020; Vol. 801, c. 172]— being at its very heart. Lurgan, Portadown, Banbridge,
565 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 566
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
[Carla Lockhart] consulted before the specific text is laid, and I welcome
the Minister’s commitment to meet those Members who
Craigavon and the surrounding villages have their own are concerned in that regard.
unique offering, be it tourism, commerce or hospitality. In Northern Ireland, abortion on request for any
The people are what make it a special place, and if any reason will be legalised to the point at which a baby is
hon. Members have not visited my constituency they “capable of being born alive”.
are more than welcome to come and see that it is a great
place in which to live, work and do business. This includes on the grounds of disability. I implore my
right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Minister
I have always longed to make a difference in society
to accede to the request to have section 9 repealed as
and make it a brighter, better place for future generations.
part of the ongoing negotiations. The DUP is a pro-life
Northern Ireland suffered greatly at the hands of terrorism,
party, but this actually crosses traditional boundaries
and we do not want to return to those days. We want a
and there is widespread cross-community support across
peaceful, prosperous society and one that is moving
Northern Ireland. We have an evolving political landscape,
forward. We have moved on from those dark days in
and I say let the people of Northern Ireland have their
Northern Ireland. We want to see investment, improved
say on this matter.
healthcare provision, a better education system and
improved infrastructure. On this, Mr Speaker, I will bring my remarks to a
To that end, I will endeavour to use this position to close. I want a society in Northern Ireland that values
achieve just that. I want to see changes to our special life, and I want to see services that will help women
educational needs provision, and I want to tackle the choose life. We want to see a perinatal palliative care
escalating mental health crisis that exists within our centre, a maternal mental health unit and better childcare
society. Our suicide figures are still among the highest services, and that is my ask of this Government. Help
within the United Kingdom. This needs to be tackled us create a culture of choosing life, as opposed to killing
urgently, and I along with colleagues will work with the an innocent little baby that does not have the voice to
Secretary of State. say, “No, mummy!” It is incomprehensible that the
I now move to the motion at hand, and particularly Government, knowing that abortion was a devolved
the report concerning abortion. I feel it is imperative matter, have published consultation proposals to introduce
that I speak on this to attempt again to highlight the changes that go far beyond what has actually been
anger, disappointment and frustration concerning required by Parliament. If the Government want to
the change in abortion laws that have been foisted upon maintain any commitment to devolution, I would implore
the people of Northern Ireland. These changes came them to rethink their coach-and-horses approach to a
in the most roughshod way, with complete contempt for life-and-death piece of legislation.
the devolved Administration and the views of the people Several hon. Members rose—
of Northern Ireland. I want today to make the point to
this House, on behalf of the many thousands of people Mr Speaker: Order. We have about five more speakers,
across Northern Ireland who take a pro-life stance, that so we must divvy up the time. We are going to finish at
we want to repeal section 9 with immediate effect and about 9.30, and ideally the Minister would like about
allow the Northern Ireland Assembly to debate, discuss five minutes to reply.
and evidence-gather on this emotive issue.
The Secretary of State has not intervened to assist 8.54 pm
our crumbling healthcare system, to reward our healthcare
workers fairly or to avert the mental health crisis we are Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): I congratulate
facing. He has not done that because he has said that the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) on
these, in his own words, are “devolved issues”. Abortion a fluid, cogent and passionate maiden speech. The
was and should be a devolved matter, yet this House has attention that all quarters of the House gave to her
imposed on Northern Ireland the most extreme measures remarks indicated the interest with which she was heard.
of abortion anywhere across Europe. She spoke with great passion about the issues on which
Northern Ireland has been a country that has always she wishes to campaign in this place, with great warmth
supported life-affirming laws. Back in 1967, our politicians about her constituency and in tribute to her predecessor
said no to the Abortion Act, and according to research and my friend David Simpson, and with clarity and
conducted by Both Lives Matter, 100,000 more people confidence about what motivates and drives her Unionism.
are alive today. England and Wales back then did On all those points she is to be congratulated, and I
support the Act, and as a result over 8 million babies wish her much happiness in her years of service in this
have been aborted—three every minute, 23 every hour place.
or 561 every day, with only a small percentage of them A number of colleagues have referenced the deteriorating
being aborted on the grounds of sexual crime or fatal situation in the arenas of the public policy delivery of
foetal abnormality. health, of welfare and of education and, as the hon.
Great credence has been given to the CEDAW report, Lady referenced, the intolerably high level of suicides in
and the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) Northern Ireland. I do not think anybody would suggest
mentioned the three instances. However, we believe that that the restitution of Stormont would solve all those
the abortion framework that looks likely to be proposed problems at the stroke of a pen, but certainly I think all
by the Northern Ireland Office will go far beyond of us should be motivated in this place by the idea that
allowing abortion on these grounds. It is my understanding local decisions taken by locally accountable politicians
that no consultation will take place on the legislative are in the best interests of those we serve, and therefore
text of the regulations. With regard to abortion, it is the imperative underlined by my hon. Friend the Minister,
well known that the detail of the text is crucial. The ask whom I must thank for updating the House, to reventilate
on that is that at least we as parliamentarians are on the crucial, pressing and urgent need to get Stormont
567 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 568
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
back up and running is right. It is perhaps tempting fate Mr Gregory Campbell: A few moments ago, the hon.
to suggest that some of the rumours coming from the Gentleman referred to the outcome of the general election
discussions in which my right hon Friend the Secretary in Northern Ireland and to the number of pro-Union
of State is taking part indicate some cause for hope, but and anti-Union people returned to the House. Does he
let us in our night prayers this evening pray that we do accept that when I was first elected 18 years ago the
see some success and the restitution of Stormont. combined percentage of people voting for united Ireland
I want to turn, albeit very briefly, to the argument, or candidates came to 42% and that in December last
conundrum, deployed by my right hon. Friend the month it was 39%? The vote for united Ireland parties
Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). I understand has gone down in those 18 years. He has just spoken
entirely that if the talks fail the default position will be a about what might happen after an election to the Assembly,
tendency to say, “Enough with deadlines; we can’t have but will he outline how he thinks the problems would
any more deadlines, we now have to cut to the chase.” change, whatever the make-up of those dealing with the
The easiest chase to cut to is of course direct rule, either problems?
officially or unofficially, to try to address the pressing
issues. Simon Hoare: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid
While I understand the ease, and for some indeed the point. One can argue percentages till the cows come
desirability, of that, it would in my judgment be a home, but in terms of bums on seats, as it were—or, in
retrograde step. The devolution genie in this kingdom is the case of Sinn Féin, non-bums on seats, if that is the
very firmly out of the bottle and it would be both right phrase to use—the figure speaks for itself. That
undesirable and possibly impossible to put that genie should give us all cause for concern. It should also
back. motivate those of us who share a strong belief in the
importance of the maintenance of the Union and the
I also think it would be the easiest thing to do for the
unity of the United Kingdom to redouble our efforts,
politicians of Northern Ireland, where in essence it
strengthen our arguments and make ever-more attractive
would effectively put on the back burner the imperative
the reasons to maintain the Union. That is as applicable
to try to find some workable solutions and accommodations
in Northern Ireland as it is in Scotland, because as
to overcome the historical tensions—there would be no
Unionists we face the twin challenge of trying to persuade
need for that because decisions would be taken in this
a growing sceptical population that there is relevance to
place. That would not, in my assessment, just lead to a
Unionism today and to its continuing. We cannot just
maintenance of the status quo; it would actually be a
walk through a fog of presuming that the status quo,
very significant step backwards to decades and years of
almost of itself, will continue.
acrimony, bitterness and the blame game.
I therefore suggest that if the talks ultimately fail—let On what the hon. Gentleman asked, I think that last
us all repeat that we pray they will not—the default month the electorate, remainers and leavers alike, decided
position will have to be fresh elections. They may very that they wanted an end to the impasse, throwing up
well throw up broadly similar results to previous elections, some very peculiar and—as far as Government Members
but we are in incredibly interesting times electorally, as are concerned—very welcome results. When the electorate
last month’s general election illustrated. The stark and has had enough, they will pick up the stubby pencil at
indeed startling fact that for the first time in its history the ballot box and almost use it as a sword, as they use
Northern Ireland elected, albeit by a slim margin, a the ballot paper as a shield, to reassert what they want.
majority of non-Unionist representatives to this place This point is possibly unpalatable to many: if politicians
shows that things can change, and change very rapidly. are prepared to not allow the restitution of devolution,
The hon. Member for Upper Bann spoke about her because they seek to argue over points that for many in
determination to serve her community. I know that that Northern Ireland will seem irrelevant or not as pressing
determination will be shared by all her colleagues from as dealing with health, education and welfare, there is
Northern Ireland, whether they are from the Alliance the risk that those electors will turn to politicians who
party, the Social Democratic and Labour party, the are less hog-tied by those traditions and seek to break
Democratic Unionist party and, while they do not take the impasse by having a new set of faces around the
their seats, Sinn Féin. I think the challenge from the table. It may result in exactly the same sort of result, but
electorate to all the political parties who hold true in if these talks fail we should default to fresh elections
their repetition of that motivation will effectively be, and not just write the electoral process off, as though it
“Put your money where your mouth is. If that is what was just another way of staying the hand of the
motivates you in public service, you will have to find a inevitable—the return to direct rule, the inevitability of
way to resolve whatever the outstanding hurdle is without which we should resist at all costs.
defaulting to the easy get-out-of-jail-free option of direct
rule.” Several hon. Members rose—
New elections may very well produce a continuance Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale): Order. Three
of the stalemate, but they could also act as the engine to Members are still seeking to speak, plus the Minister, so
break the logjam. While wishing the talks success, I urge please do the maths and be considerate.
my hon. Friend the Minister to resolve not to do the
easy thing in those circumstances and to trigger fresh
9.6 pm
elections and say to the electorate, “You are concerned
about deteriorating standards in education, health and Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): May I say how
welfare, high levels of suicide, and other areas of public pleased I was to hear the maiden speech from my hon.
life. This is now your opportunity to force your politicians Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart)?
to find a way of dealing with them through restoring I think we can look forward to some exceptional
Stormont. If they can’t, you may very well start to contributions from her in the House over the next period
choose new politicians.” of time.
569 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 570
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
[Jim Shannon] had become pregnant through rape (or incest) to access an
abortion up to the appropriate gestation period, it would also
Pages 9 to 11 of the report deal with the abortion provide access to abortion for many others who would not have
such access if the availability was confined to cases covered by
consultation that ran between 4 November and paragraph 85(b)”.
16 December. The way in which the consultation was
conducted was hugely problematic. I appreciate that Let us make no mistake: the radical proposals in the
some of the issues with the consultation were not the Northern Ireland Office consultation constitute a clear
fault of the Northern Ireland Office, but I understand political choice on the part of the NIO to undermine
that it was placed in a deeply invidious position by devolution to a greater extent than the 2017 to 2019
Parliament in the timelines that were set out. Conducting Parliament required. There is no requirement to import
only a six-week consultation during a general election into Northern Ireland ground C of the Abortion Act 1967,
campaign on an issue of this sensitivity was simply which would effectively lead to abortion on request for
inappropriate. any reason between 12 or 14 weeks’ and 22 or 24 weeks’
gestation.
The consultation document had all the hallmarks of
being rushed out or at least incomplete. Major gaps I sincerely hope that the Northern Ireland Office will
existed in it; just a few examples will suffice to show consider the consultation responses and rethink its
some of the issues. No clarity was given in the document proposals. I understand that it is legally obligated to
on who will be performing abortions in Northern Ireland introduce a new regulatory framework, but it is not
under the new regulatory framework. Will it be private required to introduce these proposed radical changes.
providers, such as Marie Stopes or the British Pregnancy Up until the point when the other place voted for the
Advisory Service, or the national health service? The amendment that became section 9, the Government
document at no point discussed which body will inspect were entirely consistent in their respect for devolution
abortion providers operating in Northern Ireland. That and the fact that abortion was a devolved matter for
is a hugely important question, yet no details were the Assembly, but let us be clear that certainly since
provided. 4 November, when the consultation was published, the
main actor within the British constitution has been not
The regulatory framework in the document is without Parliament, but the British Government, in wilfully and
question the biggest problem with it. Despite the consistent unnecessarily proposing an abortion regime that departed
claims of the Northern Ireland Office and Ministers far more radically from what we had experienced until
over the years that abortion is a devolved issue, and last October than what Parliament required.
about the importance of respecting the people of Northern
Ireland, the consultation document adopted an expansive The people of Northern Ireland do not want us to do
interpretation of section 9 of the Northern Ireland this. Some 20,000 people— rich and poor, Protestant
(Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 in the proposals. and Catholic, young and old—stood together at Stormont,
Instead of adopting a cautious approach, as they should rising above political opinion, religious divide and any
have, taking into consideration the way in which the law other consideration, to beg this place not to do this
was passed—without consultation and with the known awful thing. Yes, protect women, yes, find a better way,
strong opposition in Northern Ireland to it; all Northern but abortion on demand taking place every two minutes
Ireland MPs who took their seats in Parliament at the night and day, as on the mainland, is not what we need
time voted against the measure, and the democratically in Northern Ireland. Some 100,000 people live today
elected Northern Ireland Assembly voted as recently as because of the legislation in Northern Ireland. We do
2016 not to change the law in any way—the Northern not have to introduce this radical change, which is the
Ireland Office went far beyond what was strictly required difference between life in death, in this way. The Minister
by section 9 of the Act. That point has been well made has time to rethink. I ask that he take this opportunity
by a number of eminent lawyers and has caused huge to do so and allow the voices of people in Northern
concern in Northern Ireland. Ireland to be heard, their wishes to be acknowledged
and the right of life to be respected.
David Scoffield, QC, stated, in his expert legal opinion,
that In closing, I want quickly to mention same-sex marriage.
I pose this question to the Minister because I attended
“the question posed to me is essentially whether, if the…Secretary
of State…determined to do no more than necessary to comply the Christian Institute meeting in Belfast four or five
with his strict legal obligations under the 2019 Act, the proposals weeks ago. It was very clear and sent me some information
set out in the consultation go beyond this...I consider it to be in a letter:
relatively simple to conclude that the answer to this question is “As things stand there is no protection”—
‘yes’.”
for Churches—
He further stated:
“and the NIO and Secretary of State”—
“In my view it would be quite possible for the…Secretary of
State…if he wished to take a conservative approach…for instance, and the Minister of State
on the basis of concerns that he should go no further to legislate “must change this—not simply for Christian denominations but
on devolved matters than the UK Parliament has strictly required for our Jewish and Muslim friends who have the same deeply held
in the absence of a legislative consent motion from the Northern beliefs. We are never in a place to bully people or belittle them but
Ireland Assembly—to broaden the availability of abortion in in a country which cherishes our freedoms and acknowledges that
Northern Ireland to a lesser extent than appears to be envisaged the foundation of this country is the word of God—the protection
in the consultation proposals…to comply with the CEDAW of those Christians to say that they will hold to biblical truth…must
recommendations.” be enshrined within the law.”
He continued: The good news for Northern Ireland and the integrity
“the proposal…goes well beyond the requirement in paragraph 85(a) of the British constitution is that the proposals in the
…of the…report. Whilst the approach on which consultation abortion consultation were only proposals. The British
responses have been invited would enable a woman or girl who Government do not need to discharge their responsibilities
571 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 572
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
under section 9 and introduce these specific proposals. I are not as important as nurses not being paid properly,
therefore call on the Minister and the Government to and they are not as important as our schools not being
step back from the brink and introduce only the legislative able to fund the education services that we need to give
changes that section 9 actually requires. Decency and to our young people.
honesty require them to do so.
9.17 pm
9.12 pm
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): I have spoken this Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): I will try to
evening to the Taoiseach and the Secretary of State be brief, given the pressures of time. Let me first refer to
about this very sensitive period in the negotiations, but the main focus of the debate, Executive formation and,
as many other Members have already said, the time is hopefully, the successful return of devolution, and say
well past. Tomorrow we will have been without a that I hope that this is the last time we shall have a
Government for three years. The people we represent debate on the Executive formation Act. There is only
have not had a Government for three years. Let that one way forward for the governing of Northern Ireland—
sink in. Look at the consequences for our health service. through sharing. That reflects the complex nature of
Our health services are at breaking point. Our school our society, and the need to ensure that all traditions
budgets are at breaking point. Our nurses, for the first and identities are represented in our governance. While
time, are on strike right now. They have been used as a I would not go as far as my colleague the hon. Member
political pawn in this process, because of our failure to for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), who talked of joint rule,
deliver for them and the people they look after every any notion of direct rule or direct responsibility from
single day of the week on our behalf. London must take on board some form of Irish dimension,
and it is difficult to get that balance right. If the Irish
I agree with the shadow Secretary of State. No matter dimension is too strong it will annoy Unionists, and if it
what happens in our talks process, take the nurses and is too weak it will annoy nationalists. That is why the
the healthcare workers out of this and provide them careful balance in the Good Friday agreement is so
with the pay they work for, deserve and are entitled to. important.
They should not have to strike one more day to get their
full entitlement, which they absolutely and totally deserve. I do not want to see elections in Northern Ireland.
We must ensure that devolution is restored as quickly as
This has gone on for far too long. I for one, as leader
possible. However, in the event that we do not see talks
of the Social Democratic and Labour party, have already
resolved and a proper outcome, we cannot simply carry
committed myself to compromise on behalf of the
on with what we have been doing for the past three
people whom we represent. Other parties now need to
years. That is not tenable. Something has to give in the
step up and get ready to compromise, because the
system.
deadline is Monday, and the deadline should stay Monday.
We cannot drag this out any longer, because the people Finally, let me say something about the two social
whom we represent screamed very loudly at the last issues that have been raised. While the Northern Ireland
election. They are fed up, and what do they want? What parties have presented a united front today in relation
are they saying to us? They are saying, “Get back to to some aspects of Brexit, I fear that it will break down
work.” Compromise is not a dirty word. We have learned at this point. I want to put on record that while my
that through many difficult negotiations, through many party has a conscience position on the issue of abortion,
years of coming together and bringing our communities like most parties in the House, I personally was content
together. We cannot lose that progress. We cannot go that the House legislated on abortion reform last July.
backwards. It is up to us to sort the problem out. As a then Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, I
Let me say one more thing. There is nothing called was not at all offended, because we had not sat for the
direct rule any more. That is gone. It is outlawed. We best part of three years, and even before that, efforts at
cannot go back to the days of rule from this place over reform had stalled. Biology does not change when we
the people of Northern Ireland. The Good Friday cross the Irish sea. Women are women, and basic
agreement, the St Andrews agreement, and every agreement reproductive rights must be recognised as fundamental
since states that devolution is how we do our business issues of human rights.
now. If we cannot have devolution—although we should It is also important to bear in mind the rulings of
not countenance that—people need to understand that both the UK Supreme Court and the High Court in
the automatic response is not direct rule, because the Belfast. The position has been established, and the
nationalist population will not accept it, the Irish guidelines can now be put through either in a restored
Government will not accept it, and the St Andrews Northern Ireland Assembly or here in the Houses of
agreement has ruled it out as an option. Parliament. That is the choice, but reform must take
So what must we do? We must recognise that a voice place, and I believe that a majority in Northern Ireland
in governance must be given to both sides of our support it.
community, to all the minorities; and we are all minorities That is also the case with regard to equal marriage—
in Northern Ireland now. If we do not compromise, the same-sex marriage—and I think that the model in the
next step will be not rule from London, but some form rest of the UK is readily transferable to Northern
of joint rule from London and Dublin. People need to Ireland, with only a few minor tweaks here and there.
recognise that when we are talking tough in these No one is arguing that the Churches should not be
negotiations. given some sort of opt-out in terms of respect for their
It is time to bury the hatchet, because the issues that doctrines. The issue is how far that should go. We need
are at stake in these negotiations, important though to be mindful of people’s rights as human beings in
they are—and I have strong views on all of them—are employment and other aspects, and not go down a
not as important as people dying on waiting lists, they much more extreme form of constraint with this important
573 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland (Executive 574
Formation etc) Act 2019 Formation etc) Act 2019
[Stephen Farry] across the House, in getting that legislation through
before the election. It was important that we did so, and
set of reforms. It is important that we take them over I know that he moved heaven and earth to ensure that
the line in a restored Assembly. If we do not, this House we could do it, as did my Secretary of State. The
of Parliament should do what is important to recognise Northern Ireland civil service has now established a
people’s rights in Northern Ireland, but fundamentally, project board, and work continues at pace to deliver the
we must get the Assembly restored over the coming scheme. The head of the Northern Ireland civil service
days. met the victims and survivors groups on 17 December
and set out the timetable for redress. The application
9.20 pm process for the redress appeals is open from the end of
March 2020. I hope that provides some update on the
Mr Robin Walker: I congratulate the hon. Member
issues that the hon. Gentleman raised.
for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) on her excellent and
powerful maiden speech and on making a clear and The hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of business
pronounced contribution to this House on her first rates. Having been a territorial Minister in both Scotland
outing. I am sure we will hear a great deal more from and Northern Ireland, whenever I travel I hear concerns
her in the months to come. about business rates—as indeed I do in my own
We have had a debate in which there has again been constituency. These are fundamentally devolved matters
the consensus that we all want to see. We all want to see that need to be dealt with by the devolved Administration.
the devolved institutions restored and the agreements He mentioned that there had been a recent valuation,
respected and seen through. I am grateful to the hon. and that there were concerns about that. I absolutely
Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald), who recognise that, and the best place for those concerns to
spoke for the Scottish National party, and to the Opposition be addressed and taken up is in the Northern Irish
spokesman, the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd), Assembly. That is yet another factor that means we
for their support for that position. want to get the Assembly back up and running.
As ever in these debates, we have heard a wide range On nurses’ pay, I have complete sympathy for what
of opinions. In the previous debate, I was getting beaten people are saying about how unacceptable it is that
up very heavily by pro-choice colleagues on the Opposition people should have to be out on strike. It was the
Benches. On this occasion, perhaps the voice was slightly decision of the previous Northern Ireland Executive to
louder from the pro-life people, who I am happy to diverge from parity with England and Wales on health
meet to try to address their concerns further, to ensure workers’ pay, but the UK Government stand ready to
that we take this forward in the best possible way and in support a deal that will help to resolve the pay dispute.
a way that is respectful of the concerns in the community Once again, if we can get an Executive in place, we will
in Northern Ireland and more widely. We have to recognise work with them to ensure that that can be done, and
that we are under a legal duty under section 9 of the that the urgent issues to which my right hon. Friend the
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Act 2019, and Member for Forest of Dean alluded regarding the health
we will be continuing to work to put in place the situation in Northern Ireland are addressed.
regulations by 31 March, providing access to abortion As to my right hon. Friend’s further point about the
consistent with the CEDAW report. legacy system, we will look at legislation at the earliest
The hon. Member for Rochdale asked what we could opportunity. It is clear that legislation to improve the
do if the Executive were restored. If that were to legacy system in Northern Ireland will need to be
happen before 31 March, we would welcome discussions agreed by the UK Government and have the support of
on the regulations that will be made, and questions on the Northern Ireland Executive, which once again comes
implementation, which of course will be taken forward back to how critical it is that we get an Executive.
by the Northern Ireland Department of Health. As The hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten
these are devolved matters, any reform after March Oswald) rightly spoke about the urgency and importance
2020 can of course be considered by the Executive and of talks to restore the institutions and pillars of the
the Assembly, subject to such legislation complying peace process, which everyone in this House is united in
with convention rights and the usual Assembly procedures. supporting. She was also rightly clear about the devolved
This is yet another of those issues where, if we want the nature of health in Northern Ireland, which is one of
concerns and views of people in Northern Ireland to be the reasons why we want to continue to lean into the
properly heard, we must ensure that the institutions are talks and get devolution back up and running.
in place. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona
The hon. Gentleman asked about the legacy system, Bruce) made a passionate speech, speaking with her
as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of usual knowledge of this issue. She urged us not to go as
Dean (Mr Harper). I cannot give them specific dates at far as the consultation suggests, but it is a consultation
the moment, but I am happy to come back to them on and a listening process, and we will engage with the
that when I can. We want to work rapidly on this issue, responses before we come out with any formal Government
and we are clear that the current system for dealing with response. I am happy to meet her to see how we can take
the past has not been working well and needs to be on board her concerns, and I will write to her about any
reformed. We will continue to work with partners to further people who have been involved in the consultation
seek better ways of dealing with legacy issues, to provide beyond those that I mentioned. Part of the reason why I
better outcomes for victims and survivors and to give mentioned those groups in my speech was because the
veterans the protections that they deserve. Secretary of State talked in our previous debate about
The hon. Member for Rochdale also asked about the meeting Church groups, and we had objections from
historical institutional abuse. I am grateful for his support some Opposition Members that we were talking to
and that of the Opposition, as well as the support from Church groups but not necessarily women’s groups, so I
575 Northern Ireland (Executive 8 JANUARY 2020 576
Formation etc) Act 2019
wanted to put some of those groups on the record. She SPAC Nation
will recognise that it is important that we have also
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House
engaged with the royal colleges and medical professionals
do now adjourn.—(Nigel Huddleston.)
on those issues.
Returning to the fantastic maiden speech by the 9.28 pm
hon. Member for Upper Bann, she was clear about the Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op): I am
strength of her community and her constituency’s grateful for the opportunity to raise this important and
attractiveness to tourists. I look forward to visiting, and alarming issue this evening, and I am grateful to colleagues
I certainly hope to be able to make many more visits who have stayed late to be present during this debate.
when I am in Northern Ireland in the near future. SPAC Nation is an organisation that has been in the
We heard concerns from my hon. Friend the Member news recently, and I start by expressing my gratitude to
for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) and my right hon. Nadine White and Emma Youle at HuffPost, who carried
Friend the Member for Forest of Dean about what out some extraordinary investigative journalism to bring
could happen on 13 January if we do not deliver a the matter to light, to Greg McKenzie and the excellent
successful outcome to the talks. It is clear that none of BBC “Panorama” team for their work, and to many
the options is attractive. We want to ensure that we can others working in the media and in the press.
get the Executive back up and running and get an When I first became aware of SPAC Nation I thought,
Assembly sitting in Northern Ireland to deal with such as many have done, that it was just another church. I
issues. That is why I share the hopes of many in the started to think differently when one of their leaders
House that this is the last debate we will need on the stood as the Conservative candidate in a Croydon council
2019 Act. by-election. There is nothing wrong with a church leader
Question put and agreed to. standing for election, of course, but it was odd to find
Resolved, hundreds of young members of this so-called church
That this House has considered the Report pursuant to section 3(5) shouting abuse at other parties’ canvassers, shouting
of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, obscenities at the council leader, and intimidating voters
which was laid before this House on Thursday 19 December. on their own doorsteps, including by videoing them.
When I tweeted my concerns about this unchurch-
like behaviour, I was inundated with emails and phone
calls from young people and their parents, making
alarming allegations about SPAC Nation. I took a full
two days to phone them all back, and from that I was
able to piece together what was really going on inside
this organisation.
I am convinced that SPAC Nation is a cult. It advertises
events targeted mainly at young black people in poorer
parts of London. It offers free food or free bowling
sessions to attract young people to come along. The
young leaders vet the young people who turn up and
then target those who appear to be most susceptible.
They befriend these particular young people and invite
them to further functions and events, including dinners.
One of the organisation’s leaders will start phoning
them, sometimes several times a day. They are then
given lifts by that individual to meetings. Then, what
appears to be brainwashing starts. They are told that if
their life is unsuccessful, if their family is poor, that is
because they are not giving enough money to God.
They call it seed: “If you give seed to God—as much as
you can lay your hands on—you will become rich.” This
is the message they try to pump into these young people’s
heads.
The organisation’s leaders display extraordinary wealth.
They drive cars worth hundreds of thousands of pounds.
They wear Rolex watches and expensive designer suits,
and they live in multimillion-pound properties. All of
this is way beyond the experience of the young people
they are targeting. They tell these vulnerable young
people that they became rich by giving seed to God and
tell them that they can have the same, but first they have
to give, and by any means possible.
Some young people are encouraged to break their
links with their families and move into properties rented
by the organisation’s leaders. They call them “trap
houses”, the term used for drug dens in the United
States. A woman leader of this organisation running
one of these trap houses where vulnerable young girls
577 SPAC Nation 8 JANUARY 2020 SPAC Nation 578

[Mr Steve Reed] on her, because he was powerful and had friends in high
places. He made that claim look real to these vulnerable
were placed has 27 convictions for serious fraud. No young people by inviting politicians and senior police
vulnerable child should be allowed anywhere near her. officers to his church services. He even met the Prime
Once in these houses, the control and coercion becomes Minister in No. 10 Downing Street. I believe all those
far more insidious. One young victim told me they had people thought they were engaging with a church that
prayer sessions, which she described as brainwashing, helped vulnerable young people, but in reality they were
for up to eight hours a day, but the emphasis was not on being used to intimidate young victims and prevent
God or spirituality; it was on wealth and money and the them from speaking out.
need to give seed to God in order to get rich. SPAC Nation is not an organisation that is getting
Once the organisation has control of a young person’s young people out of crime, as it claims; it is an organisation
mind, it pressures them into making fraudulent personal that is criminalising young people for its own ends. It
loan applications so that they can hand the money to operates right across London and has already expanded
the organisation’s leaders. They are pressured into setting into other cities, including Birmingham and Leicester.
up fake businesses so that they can apply fraudulently
for business loans. The so-called pastors show the young Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab): I thank my
recruits how to fill in the application forms with false hon. Friend for securing this debate and raising what is
information. In some cases they fill in the forms for the clearly an important issue. Does he agree that what he
young person simply to sign. In at least one case, an has described is criminal activity and preying on the
application was made in a young person’s name without most vulnerable, and it is essential that the Government
their knowledge or awareness. intervene and take action?
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): Mr Reed: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making
On SPAC Nation and the financial implications of that important point. I look forward to hearing what
some of its dealings, my hon. Friend will be aware of Ministers have to say about how we can work constructively
the case of the late Mrs Osinlaru, who seems to have and collectively to tackle many of the problems and
obtained a £150,000 secured loan on her house. Tragically horrors that are associated with this organisation.
she passed away, leaving her two young adult daughters
and 13-year-old son in the house, unaware of this As I was saying, SPAC Nation started in London. It
control over it. The house was later repossessed and a seems to have spread right across the city, and it is
bailiff’s warrant secured, but that was stopped only expanding into other cities including Birmingham and
because of the presence of the young 13-year-old son. Leicester. It has no fixed location—it does not have a
That family risk losing their home and becoming homeless home church—which makes it much harder for the
because of a loan they did not know about, and their authorities to track it. There is no home police unit
mum has passed away. I have written to the church and keeping track of what it is doing. There is no local
it has admitted that it was involved in securing, or safeguarding board keeping track of the risks to young
helping to secure, that loan. Does that give my hon. Friend people. It holds its services in vast venues in many
further cause for concern? different boroughs and cities.
I have reported to the police and safeguarding authorities
Mr Reed: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for every single allegation that has been made to me, but I
raising yet another alarming case of what appears to be am deeply worried that more has not been done to stop
a form of fraud and deception perpetrated on a family this organisation from exploiting vulnerable young people.
who had just lost their mother. It seems to have been SPAC Nation claims to have up to 1,000 young people
deliberately intended to disinherit her children. involved right now, and every one of those young
There are many ways in which the leaders of this people is at risk. It appears to have up to 15 trap houses
organisation appear to be perpetrating fraud in order to scattered across London, and every young person inside
enrich themselves. I have spoken to young people who, those properties is at very serious risk. A teacher in
sickeningly, were taken to private clinics to sell their north London told me that SPAC Nation had been
blood, with a so-called pastor pretending to be their recruiting schoolgirls outside the school gates. A youth
parent in order to sign consent forms. I have spoken to worker in Croydon told me that it had been recruiting
young people who were coached to commit benefit outside the youth centre. SPAC Nation is targeting
fraud. I have met students—I have also spoken to their young people so that it can exploit them, and it is
parents—who were coerced into handing over their entire imperative that the organisation is stopped.
student loans before being taken to banks to raise further I have some questions that I would like the Minister
money through personal loans, so they lost their ability to answer this evening, if possible. Allegations about
to continue in education and ended up in serious debt. this organisation have been circulating widely in the
Tragically, where criminal exploitation is taking place, black community and on social media for up to four
there is often also sexual exploitation. One young woman years, so why has police intelligence failed to pick
told me that she was just 16 when she moved into a trap anything up? I was able to find out most of this information
house and, in her words, over a couple of days by speaking to people and googling
on social media. If I can do that without the resources
“everyone was having sex with everyone else, it was disgusting”.
of the police, why has police intelligence failed to recognise
I asked her to clarify whether she meant older pastors what is happening to potentially thousands of vulnerable
having sex with younger girls, and she said yes. young kids across this city? What action can be taken
When that young woman complained to her pastor, immediately to stop this organisation recruiting any
she was taken to the organisation’s leader, who told her more vulnerable young people for abuse and exploitation
that if she complained to the police, it would rebound in my constituency and beyond? Given what we have
579 SPAC Nation 8 JANUARY 2020 SPAC Nation 580

heard, and given what victims have told us, we surely The allegations concern a charity, and charity policy
cannot allow this organisation to continue targeting sits within our Department. I am grateful to have the
other young people for abuse and exploitation when we Minister for safeguarding and vulnerability—the Under-
can take action to protect them. Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon.
What help can be given to young people involved in Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria
SPAC Nation now? That includes those living in trap Atkins)—and the Minister for London, my hon. Friend
houses who urgently need to get out before they are the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), on the
further criminalised, their family relationships destroyed Front Bench with me.
and their future lives ruined. And why has no help been I have listened carefully to the hon. Member for
offered to potentially thousands of young people who Croydon North; I have read a great deal of the media
have managed to get away from SPAC Nation but who coverage; and I watched the “Panorama” documentary.
are left burdened with huge debts and who have been I find the accusations deeply concerning. These are very
criminalised, many of them homeless and many suffering serious allegations, and they clearly must be properly
trauma and mental ill health? We cannot simply leave and urgently investigated.
these young people to suffer the consequences of abuse The Charity Commission opened a statutory inquiry
by an exploitative organisation. into SPAC Nation on 5 December 2019, and that inquiry
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): What the hon. is looking into its finances, governance, safeguarding
Gentleman has illustrated tonight is worrying to everyone and overall compliance with charity law. However, it
who has heard it. It is hard not to be moved and to feel was not the Charity Commission’s first engagement
concerned. The magnitude and the massiveness of what with SPAC Nation. The Charity Commission launched
he has outlined indicates that it should not be an a regulatory compliance case in April 2018 and then issued
ordinary police investigation; it probably needs a specialised an action plan to SPAC Nation’s trustees in June 2019.
unit with the resources and the manpower and womanpower The Charity Commission was not satisfied with SPAC
to conclude the investigation and put an end to what Nation’s response to the action plan. Along with the
has gone wrong. Exploitation of young people is abysmal further allegations and concerns that have been raised
and despicable, and it needs to be addressed. in the media and by the hon. Gentleman, that is why it
launched its statutory inquiry in December. It also
Mr Reed: As always, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman issued an order under section 84 of the Charities Act 2011,
for his intervention, and I agree with every word he says. requiring the charity to bank the money it holds in
What concerns me further are the worrying echoes of cash.
the Rotherham child abuse scandal. In that case, vulnerable I hope the hon. Gentleman will understand that
young girls’ allegations of serious abuse were dismissed while the Charity Commission is carrying out its statutory
because they came from poor or difficult backgrounds, inquiry, I cannot comment on the specific allegations in
and it is the same with SPAC Nation. I cannot help this case. A report will be published by the Charity
wondering, as one desperate mum told me: if this was Commission once the investigation is complete. Although
happening to white middle-class children, would it have the Charity Commission cannot investigate criminal
been ignored for so many years? Would it have been offences, it does have the power to refer charities to the
allowed to go on in this way? We need to address that police. I understand that, in parallel, the Metropolitan
question, because it is a real feeling and concern in the police are already reviewing these allegations of fraud
community. In my opinion, SPAC Nation is a criminal and other offences relating to SPAC Nation that he has
enterprise masquerading as a church, because that gives raised, including directly with them.
it access to vulnerable young people and cover for
exploiting them. One of the most upsetting aspects of the allegations
I would like to say this to every young person who is is the alleged exploitation of vulnerable young people.
afraid or at risk from SPAC Nation’s activities tonight. The suggestion that the very people who most need help
This organisation might seem powerful, but we are and support are being taken advantage of is particularly
stronger and we are on your side. Collectively, we will worrying. This is a known risk, which is why a huge
not stop until every young person is safe. We will not amount of work has been and is being done across
stop until the wrongdoers inside SPAC Nation have government to improve safeguarding practices and make
been brought to justice, and we will not stop until this our society safer for young people.
dangerous, manipulative organisation can do no more
harm. Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister
may agree that this is an important issue in terms of the
9.42 pm safeguarding of young people, but the reality is that this
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, is still happening now to a number of young people, not
Culture, Media and Sport (Helen Whately): I begin by just in London but across other cities, as mentioned by
thanking the hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed).
for calling this debate and raising these very serious Is there not something the Government can do now to
concerns. I also thank his constituents and all those investigate some of these serious allegations, whereby a
who have had the courage to speak up and bring this number of young people continue to be exploited?
situation to his and our attention. I thank other Members
who stayed here tonight to intervene and contribute to Helen Whately: As I am trying to make clear, these
this debate. allegations are being investigated by the Charity
I am answering the debate, as the Minister for arts, Commission and reviewed by the police, so this is not
heritage and tourism, on behalf of the Minister for civil something the Government can intervene in at this
society, Baroness Barran, who sits in the House of Lords. point. However, this debate is certainly raising this issue
581 SPAC Nation 8 JANUARY 2020 SPAC Nation 582

[Helen Whately] appropriate person with whom to raise concerns. However,

there is a bigger-picture point, which is why I am talking
up the agenda and making sure that there is a great deal about what the Home Office is doing to prevent and
of awareness about the situation. I will do my best to respond to crime against young people, particularly
address the questions as I proceed. sexual abuse.
I wish to talk a bit more about the important role of Let me come to something that is very relevant to this
safeguarding in charities. It is important because it specific topic. In 2015, the Home Office launched the
should prevent the exploitation of vulnerable people or independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, and in May
enable a rapid and effective response if exploitation last year that inquiry announced its final investigation
does happen. I want to make clear how seriously the strand—into child protection in religious organisations
Government take this; since 2018, we have invested and settings. That strand of the inquiry is now examining
more than £1 million in the domestic charity safeguarding the nature and adequacy of child protection policies,
programme. We have been working with charities and practices and procedures, and it will consider whether
other partners, including the National Crime Agency, safeguarding in those kinds of settings needs to be
to raise awareness of safeguarding; to ensure that charities, strengthened further.
whatever their size, whether large or small, know their On safeguarding across government, in July 2018, the
responsibilities, know how to handle concerns quickly Department for Education updated the statutory guidance
and can easily access advice. The Charity Commission on inter-agency working to safeguard and promote
has also launched a whistleblowing helpline to help the welfare of children, and it is funding a £2 million
people report safeguarding concerns, and I encourage tackling child exploitation support programme to help
anyone who has experienced or witnessed wrongdoing, to deliver more effective responses to child sexual and
or are concerned about it, to use that as a means of criminal exploitation and involvement in gangs and
reporting it. Obviously, Members here can refer people drugs.
to do that.
Allegations such as those raised by the hon. Gentleman Mr Reed: How much longer does the Minister think
reinforce the importance of this vital work on strengthening that this organisation should be allowed to access vulnerable
safeguarding, and further announcements will be made young people and exploit them?
on that shortly. Protecting people from harm must
always take precedence over protecting a charity’s brand Helen Whately: I am doing my best to make clear
or status. Charities must be clear that they will listen to how seriously I take these allegations, and I know that
safeguarding concerns and that those concerns must be the other Ministers on the Front Bench take the allegations
treated promptly and seriously acted upon. The majority very seriously, but the allegations are being investigated,
of charities take their safeguarding responsibilities extremely so the hon. Member puts me in a difficult position by
seriously, and it is right that we recognise that, but when asking me to say things that it would be inappropriate
concerns are raised, action should be taken by the for me to say at the Dispatch Box. I recognise that I may
Charity Commission and, if necessary, local safeguarding not be able to answer all his questions right here and
authorities and the police. now, so I will do my best to follow up and write to him
Many of the hon. Gentleman’s concerns relate to the with the best possible answers that I can give. The
police matters. As I have said, the police are reviewing Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department,
the evidence they have received. May I suggest that if he my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle,
has not done so already, he raises these concerns about has suggested that she might be able to meet the hon.
policing with both the Mayor of London and the Member and the other Croydon MPs to discuss the
Commissioner of the Metropolitan police? wider issues raised by the concerns he has expressed.
The Home Office is working extremely hard to transform
its approach to dealing with crimes against vulnerable Mr Reed: I did not mean to put the Minister in a
young people. It has invested significantly in a programme difficult position or to be disingenuous in any way; I am
of reform to help the police to respond to changing just concerned. Given the severity and volume of the
crimes, including child sexual abuse. Child sexual abuse allegations, and the type of allegations that we are
has been prioritised as a national threat, and the Home hearing, can nothing further be done, perhaps by the
Office are empowering police forces to develop their Government working with the police and crime
specialist skills and expertise, increasing the police’s commissioners, wherever that may be necessary, or with
capabilities to tackle this terrible crime. the police forces, wherever that may be necessary, to
prevent this organisation, even if only temporarily, from
Marsha De Cordova: Forgive me if I am being ignorant being able to stand outside school gates and youth
on this point, but the Minister has asked my hon. centres and target young people? I would be happy to
Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) to work collaboratively with the Minister and her colleagues
raise this with the Mayor of London and the Metropolitan to seek an answer to that—I understand that I have not
Police Commissioner, if he has not already done so. The given warning of that question this evening—but if
Home Office is the Government’s responsibility and there were some way for us to look at working together
this sounds to me like a Home Office issue that the to prevent any more young lives being destroyed, even
Government need to look into, so will she clarify whether while investigations are going on, I would be immensely
or not this is an issue that the Home Office should be grateful.
addressing?
Helen Whately: I am sorry but I cannot give a different
Helen Whately: The important point is that this is a answer from this Dispatch Box. None of us would want
police matter, which is why the Mayor of London, as to say anything this evening that might perhaps prevent
the police and crime commissioner for London, is the an effective investigation taking place, or that might
583 SPAC Nation 8 JANUARY 2020 SPAC Nation 584

prejudice the outcome in any way that might be unhelpful. Just before I conclude, I want to make an important
Given how serious these allegations are, let us make point and say how mindful I am, given the context of
sure that they can be effectively investigated and pursued. this debate, of the important role that religion, faith
and worship play in our society and what a significant
Siobhain McDonagh: I thank the Minister for giving and important contribution that many religious charities
way. She is being very generous. The Charity Commission make to our communities. They are often the first in
can often move very slowly, and given the seriousness of and last out of marginal communities, providing invaluable
the allegations, would it not be possible to suspend help and support for those most in need. That includes
charitable status while the investigations are going ahead? many black majority Churches up and down the country
Considering other charities that deal with young people that support their local communities, contributing positively
from memory, I am aware that this has happened in the to wider society. That is a very important point to put
past. on the record.
Helen Whately: I am very happy to write to the hon. As I have said, I will write to the hon. Gentleman. He
Lady with a full response to that question, but let me has the offer of a meeting with the Under-Secretary of
reiterate that I know that the Charity Commission is, as State for the Home Department to discuss these wider
I said before, investigating the matter and that, because issues in principle. May I thank him for calling this
it does not look into criminal activity, the police are debate and for highlighting these very serious allegations?
reviewing these allegations. Those two things are happening. His concerns have been fully heard by me, by the other
Ministers here and by many thousands via the media
Before we finish, I want to put the record straight on
coverage that this has received. The crucial next step is
one matter. I do understand that the pastor to whom
for the Charity Commission and the police to investigate
the hon. Gentleman referred went to No. 10 Downing
the allegations and to take appropriate action.
Street, but I have been told that he did not meet the
Prime Minister. I think that it is appropriate to say that.
My understanding is that he attended a roundtable Question put and agreed to.
event along with 25 other Church leaders to discuss
youth violence, and it was in that context that he was in 9.57 pm
No. 10 Downing Street. House adjourned.
585 9 JANUARY 2020 586

House of Commons Kate Griffiths: Does my right hon. Friend agree that
to mark our leaving the European Union, our fantastic
local breweries in Burton-on-Trent should brew a
celebratory Brexit beer?
Thursday 9 January 2020
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Steve Barclay: From the reaction of the House, it
seems my hon. Friend has struck an extremely positive
note in one of her first contributions. I again welcome
PRAYERS her to the House. I know her constituency is famed for
its beer, and I am sure that many Members would
welcome those breweries celebrating this occasion in
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] such a way, just as I would welcome the fantastic
Elgood’s Brewery doing so, which sits in my constituency.

Mark Logan: Will my right hon. Friend consider the

Oral Answers to Questions idea, as a lot of my constituents have, of commemorating
this day of real constitutional importance by having an
anniversary on the date every year?

EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION Steve Barclay: I very much welcome my hon. Friend
to his place, not least as a fellow Lancastrian; I am sure
Mr Speaker knows of our Lancastrian pride. He brings
an important suggestion. Again, it is all part of marking
The Secretary of State was asked—
this significant moment in our national history.
Marking Exit Day
Daniel Kawczynski: Will my right hon. Friend
1. Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): What acknowledge that 31 January is a significant day not
plans the Government have to mark the UK leaving the only for us here in the United Kingdom but for hundreds
EU on 31 January 2020. [900000] of millions of Eurosceptics across the continent of
Europe who share concerns about the direction of travel
11. Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con): What plans the of the European Union, including many citizens in my
Government have to mark the UK leaving the EU on country of birth, Poland? Does he agree that it is
31 January 2020. [900011] important for us to celebrate this day very publicly, as a
nation, to give a guiding principle to others in Europe
17. Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con): What that there is life outside the European Union?
plans the Government have to mark the UK leaving the
EU on 31 January 2020. [900017] Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention
to the fact that this is an important day not just for our
18. Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) own citizens but for many elsewhere who recognise the
(Con): What plans the Government have to mark the importance of this event in terms of democracy and
UK leaving the EU on 31 January 2020. [900018] respecting the democratic decisions that people take,
rather than overturning them, as has sometimes been
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union the intention in the past. He has always been a champion
(Steve Barclay): I begin by congratulating my hon. of close ties between the UK and Poland, and I think
Friend on his election to the seat of Warrington South. that whatever celebrations there are will continue in that
I look forward to his advocacy on issues relating to our vein.
exit from the European Union. We stand ready to work
with businesses up and down the country as we mark an Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Do the Government’s
important moment in our national history: leaving the plans for the end of this month still include the abolition
European Union on 31 January. of the right hon. Gentleman’s Department? If so, which
Department and which Minister will take responsibility
Andy Carter: How will my right hon. Friend ensure for the very important negotiations that are about to
that small businesses, which have been, and are, the begin?
engine of growth in my constituency, are able to share
in the benefits of leaving the EU and in celebrating our Steve Barclay: I pay tribute to the work of the right
departure on 31 January? hon. Gentleman during his tenure as Chair of the
Exiting the European Union Committee. He knows
Steve Barclay: Before coming to the House, my hon. from his time in Government that machinery of government
Friend was a champion of small businesses in Warrington, changes are announced in the usual way by the Prime
and I know he will continue to be so during his time in Minister, and No. 10 has signalled that it intends to do
this place. The best way that we will support businesses so. He should also be aware, because we publicly stated
in his constituency is by having control of our money, it, that the Department will draw to a close to mark our
borders and laws. That is what our exit from the European exit. It is the Department for Exiting the European
Union does, and that is what he should rightly celebrate Union, and we will have exited and done the job of the
on 31 January. Department when we leave on 31 January.
587 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 588

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I £1 million is specifically for the settlement scheme, as I
welcome the Secretary of State back to this House. We am sure the Minister for Security detailed in Committee
have always got on very well, and he is much cleverer on Tuesday, and there have been 2.6 million or 2.8 million
than me, but I do have a couple of degrees in economics. or so applications, so the scheme is working very effectively
When the President of the European Commission comes free of charge. But the hon. Member is right that some
here and says that in any deal, if we do not have free people will have concerns, and one thing that the European
movement of labour we will not get free movement of Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill does is guarantee
goods and services, is that not something that we should the rights of citizens and address many of the concerns
all be very sad about as we leave the European Union? that some of his constituents have shared.

Steve Barclay: I am always grateful to the hon. Gentleman Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings)
for how he champions his constituents and raises thoughtful (Con): In celebration of this important occasion in our
points. He is quite right to pick up on what I thought nation’s history, will the Secretary of State arrange for
was a constructive speech from the European Commission Union flags to be flown from all public buildings across
President at the London School of Economics yesterday our kingdom? That would be a fitting tribute to the
and to draw the House’s attention to it. What I took decision the British people made to leave the European
away from her speech was her language about wanting a Union. We will remain unafraid of our patriotism,
very ambitious partnership—she referred to unabashed about our departure and unwavering in our
“old friends and new beginnings” determination to make our future even greater.
and drew on her own time in London and how much
Steve Barclay: I know that, like me, my parliamentary
she enjoyed it and valued the United Kingdom. She
neighbour always takes pride in seeing our Union Jack
wanted to see a close partnership, whether on climate
flown, and any opportunity to do so is one that he and I
change, security or many other issues on which we have
would always celebrate. Given my right hon. Friend’s
values in common with our neighbours.
penchant for poetry, I cannot be alone in thinking that
such an occasion might inspire him in due course to
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): Will the write something fitting.
Government confirm whether they are going to request
the chiming of Big Ben to mark 11 pm on 31 January? Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): Even
This is not going to be a moment of celebration for the most ardent supporter of Brexit will, I am sure,
many people across the UK; it will be a moment of share a concern that the UK’s departure from the
considerable concern, not least for my constituents who European Union might be depicted as representing
are European Union nationals. Perhaps we should be insularity and nationalism. It is therefore important
asking the Government: if they do want to hear the bell that we dispel that sense, and one way in which we could
chime, for whom will the bell toll? do so is to sign up long term to the vulnerable refugees
resettlement scheme and, indeed, to accept in full the
Steve Barclay: I welcome this late conversion on the Dubs amendment and do our best by the most vulnerable
part of the Scottish National party to celebrating our people on this planet, child refugees.
exit and having Big Ben chime. As the hon. Gentleman
will know, a decision as to whether Big Ben should Steve Barclay: I absolutely agree with the first part of
bong or not is one for the House authorities and I the hon. Gentleman’s question. A big part of why I and
would not dare to step into such terrain. The wider many colleagues supported Brexit is that we want to be
point, as I think the mood of the House has demonstrated, more outward-looking, global and international; we
is that this is an historic moment and many Members of want to go after trade deals around the world and have
the House wish to celebrate it. autonomy.
On unaccompanied children and the Dubs amendment,
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): I urge the we should not talk down the United Kingdom, which is
Government to be careful about the tone that is adopted currently in the top three EU countries in terms of the
at the end of January. They will appreciate that there number of unaccompanied children it takes. It takes
are many who do not see this as a moment for celebration. 15% of the entire total of unaccompanied children. We
In particular, may I ask the Secretary of State what have a proud record, we have made commitments, and
measures are being put in place for the large numbers of the Home Secretary wrote to the Commission in October
non-UK EU nationals, of whom there are many in on this issue. It is not necessary for it to be in the
Cambridgeshire, who will feel particularly vulnerable at withdrawal agreement Bill itself. We have a proud record,
that point? and we should not talk it down.
Steve Barclay: The hon. Member is absolutely right, Employment Rights
and I hope that colleagues across the House will see that
I always try to take a tone that reflects that. I have often 2. Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): What plans the
talked about the fact that in my own family, notwithstanding Government have to negotiate for dynamic alignment
my personal role, my eldest brother is an official working with the EU on employment rights after the UK has left
for a European institution. I know that many families the EU. [900001]
were split on this issue.
To answer the hon. Member’s question directly, one 6. Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): What plans the Government
thing that we have done is establish a £9 million fund to have to negotiate for dynamic alignment with the EU
support outreach groups and charities. We have worked on employment rights after the UK has left the EU.
with embassies in particular. Within that £9 million, [900005]
589 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 590

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union Steve Barclay: I extend a particularly warm welcome
(Steve Barclay): The Government have been clear that to my hon. Friend on his return to the House, and I
the future relationship will protect the UK’s sovereign thank him for his contribution to the Department during
right to regulate, and have no plans to align dynamically his tenure. He is right both in having confidence in this
with EU employment legislation. House setting high standards on workers’ rights and the
environment, and in emphasising the importance of
Mohammad Yasin: Since October, the withdrawal that from a Union perspective. Of course, Wales supported
agreement Bill has undergone major changes, including leaving, just as England did.
the stripping out of previous commitments to workers’
rights. Will the Secretary of State publish a revised
impact assessment so that he can be honest with the Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): Will the
public about what his Government have in store for Secretary of State give an absolute guarantee that post
them with their hard Brexit plan? Brexit, under a Conservative Government, there will
never be a point at which workers in the EU27 enjoy
Steve Barclay: The reality is that we actually go stronger employment rights than they do here?
beyond Europe in many areas of workers’ rights, including
maternity and paternity leave, and we should be proud Steve Barclay: I am absolutely clear that we will
of that. The hon. Gentleman asks specifically about the deliver on our manifesto—[Interruption.] Members seem
change to the withdrawal agreement Bill, but it does not surprised that the Government want to deliver on our
affect the rights of workers. It should be for this Parliament manifesto. The manifesto says that we are committed to
to set the standards. In our manifesto, we committed to having high standards. As I said earlier, the real issue is
having high standards. The real question that should be that, in a number of areas, EU standards are lower. The
asked is why a number of member states do not meet UK has three times the maternity entitlement: it has
the standards set here in the United Kingdom. 52 weeks of maternity leave, 39 of which are paid,
whereas the EU requires only 14 weeks of paid leave.
Liz Twist: So far, the Prime Minister has taken workplace That is the area that I urge the hon. Gentleman to
rights out of the withdrawal agreement in October and focus on.
the withdrawal agreement Bill in December. What
confidence can we have that workplace rights will be
protected under this Government? Nick Thomas-Symonds: A Government genuinely
committed to workers’ rights would have given a straight
Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady says that as if she yes to that question, but the Secretary of State did not.
supported the Bill in October, but she did not. She did If he committed to dynamic alignment on workers’
not support it when those things were in the clause, and rights, there would be nothing stopping the Government
now she is lamenting that they are out of the clause that going beyond it in the years ahead. Should we be
she did not support. The reality is that the purpose of surprised by their lack of commitment? The Prime
the withdrawal agreement Bill is to implement the Minister said that the weight of employment law was
international agreement that the Prime Minister has “back-breaking”. Is not the truth that the Government
reached with the European Commission. Of course it is will not end up with stronger rights for UK workers at
for the House, in the course of its business, to determine the end of this Parliament?
what standards it wants on workers’ rights, the environment
and other areas. The Prime Minister was clear in the Steve Barclay: I really do not think Opposition Members
manifesto that we are committed to high standards in should be talking about a lack of commitment when it
those areas. I think that is something that the hon. Lady comes to the withdrawal agreement, given that their
and I can agree on. party leader was neutral on the issue during the general
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): Does the election. The reality is that the hon. Gentleman, like so
Secretary of State agree that, contrary to what the hon. many Members on the Opposition Benches, having said
Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) said, we need that he would respect the result of the referendum, went
dynamic alignment like a hole in the head? The purpose back on the manifesto commitment and did not do it. It
of Brexit is to enable us to make our own laws and rules, is now time to listen to the electorate and deliver that.
set our own taxes and chart our own course. We are absolutely clear that in doing so, as we set out in
our manifesto, we will maintain high standards on
Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend has championed workers’ rights.
Parliament’s taking control of these issues for many
years, and he is absolutely right: it is for this House to Environmental Standards
determine the standards, and we should have confidence
in its ability to do so.
3. Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): What recent
Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I thank discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for
the Secretary of State for his answer on dynamic alignment. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on maintaining
As his Department winds up, I thank him personally for environmental standards after the UK leaves the EU.
leading it with such professionalism, and I thank his [900002]
team at DExEU.
On dynamic alignment, I ask my right hon. Friend to 13. Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con): What recent
reflect on the fact that the Brexit vote was about this discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for
House being sovereign. For me, as a Welsh Member, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on maintaining
that is the Union of the United Kingdom, and this environmental standards after the UK leaves the EU.
House being sovereign over our alignment. [900013]
591 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 592

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union that is integrated in our aspiration—[Interruption.]
(Steve Barclay): I continue to have regular conversations The hon. Gentleman is chuntering away, but I will move
with ministerial colleagues across Government on all on to that. On the specific point about the green deal, he
aspects of exiting the European Union. The Government is right that the Commission President specifically referred
have been clear that we will not weaken our current to the green deal in her speech at the London School of
environmental protections as we leave the European Economics yesterday, and it is something that the Prime
Union, and that we will maintain, and even enhance, Minister and I discussed with her in our meeting. Again,
our already high environmental standards. it is an area where the UK has world-leading expertise.
Look at our green finance, our green investment bank
Robert Largan: It is vital that we not only maintain and the areas where the UK is in the lead. We look
but enhance our environmental protections, and that we forward to working with the European Union on that
enhance our natural environment. Can the Secretary of as we move forward.
State assure the House that leaving the EU will not
negatively impact on the Nature4Climate fund and the European Court of Justice
essential restoration of our peat moorlands, including
in my constituency of High Peak? 4. Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con): Whether the UK
will be required to comply with (a) EU law and (b) rulings
Steve Barclay: I welcome my hon. Friend to his place. of the European Court of Justice after the UK leaves
He is quite right to highlight the importance of those the EU. [900003]
protections from a constituency perspective. I draw his
attention to the £10 million that the Government have 5. Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): Whether
allocated for peatland restoration until March 2021, the UK will be required to comply with (a) EU law and
which I hope will give him comfort, alongside the (b) rulings of the European Court of Justice after the
environmental commitments set out in the Queen’s Speech, UK leaves the EU. [900004]
such as the independent monitoring of the targets that
have been set, and the allocation of funding for that 10. Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con):
specific issue, which I know he has a close constituency Whether the UK will be required to comply with (a) EU
interest in. law and (b) rulings of the European Court of Justice
after the UK leaves the EU. [900010]
Chris Loder: The United Kingdom has some of the
highest food standards, so will my right hon. Friend The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting
confirm that Her Majesty’s Government will not allow the European Union (James Duddridge): I congratulate
substandard agricultural or food imports after the UK my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Lia
leaves the EU, which it would otherwise be illegal to Nici) on her election as the first Conservative MP for
produce here in the UK? Great Grimsby since 1945—fantastic!
The withdrawal agreement ensures that the current
Steve Barclay: I welcome my hon. Friend to his place role of the European Union institutions, including the
—it is nice to have so many hon. Friends to welcome European Court of Justice, and the obligation to comply
today. I am sure that, like me, he listened to “Farming with European Union law as it is now end with the
Today” this morning and heard, in relation to the implementation period on 31 December 2020. There
Oxford conference, a debate on how important it is to are limited exceptions, such as citizens’ rights, to give
maintain high animal welfare standards on imports in businesses and individuals certainty. The agreement
any future trade deals. One of the odd points about this enables a relationship between sovereign equals.
debate is that the Government are constantly asked
whether we will maintain high animal welfare standards, Lia Nici: I thank the Minister for his response. Does
notwithstanding our manifesto commitments to do so, he agree that coastal areas such as my Great Grimsby
but there is very little scrutiny of those areas in Europe constituency voted particularly to ensure that we take
that have lower standards. I am sure that we will explore back control of our fishing laws, and that it is essential,
the issue during the negotiations. following Brexit, that laws governing fishing are decided
here in the UK?
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): The Secretary
of State will know that the EU’s groundbreaking European James Duddridge: I agree with my hon. Friend. I
green deal includes many policies with which UK alignment recognise the importance of this issue as I, too, represent
will be straightforward. Others will be more challenging. a coastal constituency. As we leave the EU, we will be an
For example, the circular economy action plan will seek independent coastal state and we will introduce our
to change business models and set minimum standards own independent fisheries policy. We will be able to
for producers to prevent environmentally harmful products control access to and management of our waters. That
being placed on the market. He has talked about wanting presents opportunities for the UK fishing industry, and
to lead on environmental issues, so will the Government the Government are determined to make the most of
commit to adopting and keeping pace with the proposed such opportunities for the people of Grimsby and the
minimum standards on sustainable production? rest of the United Kingdom.

Steve Barclay: We are very happy to commit to Huw Merriman: On 30 January, I shall be holding a
world-leading environmental standards. One of the areas public meeting to explain the terms of the withdrawal
where we are doing so is through our hosting of COP26 agreement. When I held my last meeting relating to the
in Glasgow, which will be key, and through standards— previous withdrawal agreement, concern was raised about
[Interruption.] I will come on to climate change, but the European Court’s ability to determine issues that arise.
593 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 594

Will my hon. Friend confirm that, under articles 167 to during which medical supplies will continue to flow as
181 of the new withdrawal agreement, while the Court they do today. My hon. Friend makes a good point
can have matters referred to it, it cannot actually determine, about EU nationals working in the health service. Since
because we will now have an arbitration panel, over the referendum, almost 7,300 more European nationals
which the UK will have a large degree of control? have been working in NHS trusts and clinical
commissioning groups, which should be welcomed.
James Duddridge: I can confirm that the withdrawal
agreement establishes an arbitration panel as part of Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): During
the standard mechanism for settling disputes between the election, the Prime Minister promised 50,000 extra
the UK and the EU. After 31 December, the Court of nurses. Given a one-third increase in EU nurses leaving
Justice of the European Union will no longer be the the UK, does the Minister accept that the Prime Minister
final arbiter of disputes under the disputes resolution must ditch his anti-immigrant rhetoric, and that there
mechanism. I look forward to an invite to my hon. must be improvements to the settlement scheme so that
Friend’s event. EU citizens feel both welcome and secure in the UK?
Chris Clarkson: I thank the Minister for his assurances
on the ECJ. People in Heywood and Middleton voted James Duddridge: There have been improvements in
to leave the European Union by a quite significant tier 2 visas and 700 more EU doctors have come on
margin. Does he agree that the critical reason for that board. The hon. Lady talks about the manifesto and
was a wish to take back control of our laws to this place 50,000 more nurses. We will do more on the nurse
and not to be dictated to by Brussels? bursary scheme, as was promised during the general
election.
James Duddridge: It is wonderful to see my hon.
Friend in the Chamber—he is not the first Conservative Dr Whitford: My German GP husband, who has
MP for his constituency since 1945, but the first ever been looking after patients for over 30 years, was quite
Conservative MP for Heywood and Middleton. This offended by the Prime Minister criticising EU citizens
Government have prioritised negotiating a deal that treating this “as their own country”.
disentangles us from the European Union’s legal order There has been a lot of concern about the possible
and does indeed take back control of our laws. increase in drug prices for the NHS under a US trade
deal, but what estimate has been made of the increased
NHS bureaucratic customs costs for the 37 million packets of
drugs that come from the EU every month?
7. Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con):
What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary James Duddridge: The hon. Lady talks about
of State for Health and Social Care on the effect on the bureaucracy, but one of the reasons why we want to
NHS of the UK leaving the EU. [900006]
take back control is to reduce that bureaucracy. We will
be in control of our own destiny to manage the very
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting issues that she highlights.
the European Union (James Duddridge): I congratulate
my hon. Friend on his election. His experience as an
A&E doctor will, I am sure, pay dividends here. I Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con): Will my
promised my office that I would make no jokes about hon. Friend confirm that the NHS will receive far more
his scrubbing up well as a new Member of Parliament. than £350 million a week in additional funding as the
UK leaves the EU, including in my home constituency
Ministers from the Department for Exiting the European of Bassetlaw?
Union continue to hold regular discussions with Health
and Social Care Ministers. The NHS is, of course, of
the utmost importance to the Government. As was James Duddridge: I welcome my hon. Friend to the
outlined in the Queen’s Speech, the national health House and can certainly confirm that.
service’s multi-year funding settlement, which was agreed
earlier this year, will be enshrined in law for the first EU Citizens
time ever.

Dr Mullan: I thank the Minister for that response. I 8. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): What discussions he
know that my constituents in Crewe and Nantwich are has had with the Home Secretary on the level of fees
delighted to see the deadlock broken and the good payable by EU citizens who are the spouse of a UK
progress that we are making toward delivering Brexit national and continue to reside in the UK after the
responsibly by the end of the month. Does he agree that UK leaves the EU. [900008]
significant measures have rightly been taken to ensure
the continued flow of medicines after Brexit, and that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting
the NHS will continue to be a fantastic place for EU the European Union (James Duddridge): The Secretary
citizens to work in years to come? of State regularly discusses the rights of EU citizens
with the Home Secretary and other Cabinet colleagues.
James Duddridge: The Government are moving forward To protect the right to reside, EU citizens who are
on the implementation of the withdrawal agreement, resident at the end of the implementation period must
and we are confident that the deal will be ratified on apply for settled status by June 2021. This is a free-of-charge
31 January. Under the terms of the agreement, we will process, and we have already received well over 2.6 million
enter the implementation period following 31 January, applications to the scheme.
595 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 596

Philip Dunne: I am grateful to the Minister for that The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union
reply, and obviously I am delighted by the progress that (Steve Barclay): I have regular discussions with Cabinet
the settlement scheme is making in encouraging EU colleagues on citizens’ rights. The withdrawal agreement
citizens who are here to remain. In common with many will protect the rights of EU citizens who arrive in the
colleagues in the House, I spent a number of days in the UK by the end of the implementation period. As of the
last few weeks knocking on doors and talking to my end of November, we were already moving towards
constituents. One of the people I came across was an receiving 3 million applications to the EU settlement
EU citizen—an Italian who was married to a British scheme.
lady and had lived here for over 50 years, working all
the time and paying his taxes. He wanted to become a Wera Hobhouse: Will EU nationals who fail to get
British citizen, but is faced with an application fee of settled status by the end of this year become our next
£1,700. Does my hon. Friend think that that is fair? Is Windrush generation, losing their driving licences and
there something that we can do to encourage people jobs, and ultimately facing deportation?
who have lived here for a long time to become British
citizens? Steve Barclay: I am glad that the hon. Lady asks that
question, because it lets me say: first, we have a grace
James Duddridge: I am more than happy to meet my period until June 2021 to address that issue; and, secondly,
right hon. Friend to talk about the specifics of that case the declaratory scheme that she advocates would increase
and the EU settlement scheme. Yesterday the Minister the risk of exactly the issue to which she refers.
for immigration talked about why that issue would not
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con):
be covered by the withdrawal agreement Bill, but I am
Does the Secretary of State agree that the fact that
more than happy to chat to my right hon. Friend about
3.5 million EU citizens see the best future for themselves
that individual case.
and their families as to remain living and working in
post-Brexit Britain is a huge endorsement of our post-Brexit
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): Does the Minister prospects? I wish that that confidence was shared by
have even the tiniest twinge of conscience at the sheer hon. Members on both sides of the House.
immorality of demanding that somebody pay an
extortionate sum simply to be allowed to continue to Steve Barclay: I urge Members on both sides of the
live in their own home? House to support Third Reading of the withdrawal
agreement Bill because it safeguards the rights of the
James Duddridge: The settlement scheme is free. 3 million EU citizens here, as it does those of the
1 million or so UK citizens in Europe. The Bill guarantees
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): To what extent the rights of those EU citizens because we value the
is the Government’s EU settlement scheme in this country contribution they make to our homes, communities and
being replicated by the EU27, including with reference businesses.
to fees and charges?
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): Refusing
James Duddridge: My hon. Friend makes a good to provide paper proof of status, rejecting Labour’s
point. The Prime Minister made a big, bold offer for proposal to grant automatic status, granting only
EU citizens, and we urge member states to do the same. uncertainty inducing pre-settled status to people who
have been here legally for years and the high cost of
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the Minister applying for citizenship—what part of all that does the
further outline whether he intends to level the fees Secretary of State believe makes our EU friends and
between European partners and Commonwealth partners neighbours living in the UK feel truly valued and welcome?
such as Canada to ensure that there is a level playing
field for immigration? Is he aware that that would Steve Barclay: The hon. Lady appears to have missed
reduce the fees paid by Commonwealth spouses? the debate about these issues in Committee.

James Duddridge: Such issues are for the Home Office, Thangam Debbonaire: No, I was here.
but an advantage of taking back control is that we can
look at our relationships with other parts of the world, Steve Barclay: In which case the hon. Lady should
particularly the Commonwealth, which makes up a well know that the specific issue of documentation
third of the world by population. versus digital was raised with the Minister for Security,
who was clear that although there will be a letter to
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): Can my hon. provide a document, it would have reference to the
Friend assure EU citizens in Beaconsfield that there is digital number. That issue was explored at length. She
no charge for applying for settled status? will also know that citizens do not lose any rights when
they get pre-settled status, and that they then move on
to settled status. Those issues were debated—that is
James Duddridge: I thank the right hon.—[Interruption.]
what a Committee stage is for—and addressed by a
Sorry, my hon. Friend—the title does not go with the
Home Office Minister at that time.
constituency. I do not know her well, but she is already
a great improvement, and I agree fully. Agricultural Sector

9. Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): What recent discussions 12. Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con):
he has had with Cabinet colleagues on protecting the What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues
rights of EU citizens living in the UK after the UK on potential opportunities for (a) farmers and (b) the
leaves the EU. [900009] agricultural sector after the UK leaves the EU. [900012]
597 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 598

23. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): What discussions enforcement body. Above all, however, I refer her to this
he has had with Cabinet colleagues on potential House: part of taking back control will be the House’s
opportunities for (a) farmers and (b) the agricultural ability to scrutinise issues, such as the legitimate one
sector after the UK leaves the EU. [900023] that she raises, and to ensure that the Government meet
the assurances that they have given.
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union
(Steve Barclay): I continue to have regular conversations Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP):
with ministerial colleagues on all aspects of exiting the The Secretary of State will be aware of the importance
European Union, including agricultural policy. of the agrifood sector in Northern Ireland. Will he
assure the House, and the agrifood sector and associated
Kevin Hollinrake: Our farmers and food producers businesses in Northern Ireland, that his departmental
are required by domestic legislation to observe high and Cabinet colleagues are very well aware of that
standards for the environment, the workplace and animal importance and can minimise any threats and maximise
welfare. Will the Secretary of State confirm that under opportunities as we leave the EU?
future free trade agreements, tariff-free imports will be
allowed only from producers that also observe those Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely
standards? right about the importance of that issue. The former
Chair of the Exiting the European Union Committee
Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right to raise the referred to the Department’s disbanding, but what is
issue, about which there has been a live discussion at the not disbanding is the expertise within it, which will be
Oxford farming conference, as he will know. The UK shared across Whitehall, including with the Northern
has always been a leading advocate of open and fair Ireland Office. As the hon. Gentleman will know, when
competition. I assure him that we are absolutely committed it comes to the implementation of the Northern Ireland
to maintaining high standards through a robust domestic protocol, that sector and how it plays into discussions
enforcement regime. within the Joint Committee will be extremely important.
I am sure that he will contribute fully to that debate.
Mel Stride: As this is my right hon. Friend’s last
question session as Secretary of State for Exiting the Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
European Union, may I congratulate him on having (Con): As in Northern Ireland, the agricultural sector is
served with such distinction? vital to the economy of Scotland, where food and drink
account for 18% of international exports. What work is
I very much welcome the Government’s commitment
my right hon. Friend’s Department and the Department
to maintaining common agricultural policy levels of
for International Trade doing to ensure that, in our
funding for our farmers, but during his remaining days
future relationship with the European Union, the trade
in office, may I urge my right hon. Friend to liaise
in agri-goods is as free and frictionless as possible?
closely with the Secretary of State for Environment,
Food and Rural Affairs to make sure that we come up
with an excellent deal for our hill farmers, many of Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right to highlight
whom operate at a level of subsistence yet look after the importance of the food and drink sector—not least,
some of the most beautiful uplands in our land? for example, when we consider the Scottish whisky
industry, which is key. From memory, the UK has 88
geographical indications, whereas Europe has over 3,000:
Steve Barclay: I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s from a negotiating point of view, the European Union
kind remarks. He is absolutely right to focus on hill obviously has more interest in that issue. From a Scottish
farmers. As he will know, one of the aspects of the point of view, however, the importance of the intellectual
Agriculture Bill is the ability to target measures—for protection of Scottish whisky and salmon is huge. We
example, on the environment—at specific areas of are very alive to those issues.
agriculture. Key among those are hill farmers, whom I
know he has always championed.
22. [900022] Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
(SNP): Scottish farmers and Scotland’s food and drink
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Farmers made industry are completely reliant on existing EU arrangements.
it clear in Oxford this week that they simply do not trust A no-deal crash-out would be disastrous for both
the Government’s assurances. Will the right hon. Gentleman sectors, so our relationship with the EU is critical. Also,
and the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and trade deals with the US could undermine environmental
Rural Affairs give assurances that they will accept the standards: if there is a no-deal crash-out under World
equivalent of my former new clause 1 to the Agriculture Trade Organisation rules, we will not be able to avoid
Bill, when it comes back? That would ensure no lowering cheap food involving poorer environmental standards
of standards. Will they also agree to the National coming from the States. That future relationship is
Farmers Union’s request for a trading standards commission important, as are the trade deals that the UK negotiates.
to scrutinise any future trade deals and make sure that Surely the Scottish Government need a statutory role in
farmers are protected? both those areas.
Steve Barclay: If farmers did not trust the assurances, Steve Barclay: One of the most welcome things about
I am not sure whether another assurance would suddenly the debate since the general election has been its more
become trustworthy. positive tone, and one aspect of that has been moving
On the substance of the hon. Lady’s question, I refer on from the language of no-deal crash-outs. The withdrawal
her, for example, to the commitment to set up the office agreement safeguards things such as citizens’ rights. It
for environmental protection, which will be the single includes the Northern Ireland protocol and settles
599 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 600

settlement. We therefore move into a different phase, in Karl McCartney: And there was me saying I liked
which the risks of no deal that the hon. Gentleman and your socks.
many others spoke about no longer apply. That is the The good city of Lincoln is not that close to the sea,
benefit of the Prime Minister’s deal and it is why the but further to the Minister’s answer to Question 4, in
hon. Gentleman should support the withdrawal agreement percentage terms and considering everything we now
Bill on Third Reading. know, how confident is my right hon. Friend not only
that will we leave the common fisheries policy completely,
Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): Can my right hon. but that we will then be in full control of our fishing
Friend confirm whether the Government will introduce areas and quotas, and therefore able to influence
any changes to the seasonal agricultural workers scheme international total allowable catches?
after the UK leaves the EU? Farmers in my constituency
need certainty that they can hire the workers they Steve Barclay: I am 100% confident on those issues,
require. because page 46 of the Conservative manifesto, which I
know my hon. Friend knows in detail, makes it clear
Steve Barclay: I know from representing a farming that we will leave the common fisheries policy and
area myself the importance of seasonal workers. Obviously, become an independent coastal state. For the first time
that debate interplays with the expansion of investment in more than 40 years, we will have access to UK waters
in agritech, which brings benefits not only for productivity on our own terms, under our own control, and we will
but in reducing demand. My hon. Friend will be aware be responsible for setting fishing opportunities in our
that the Home Office has increased the numbers under own waters.
the seasonal agricultural workers scheme to 10,000, but
as part of designing our own approach to immigration Topical Questions
and having control of our borders, we will be able both
to address the concerns of the public at large and to
T2. [900027] Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): If he will
mitigate any specific sectoral issues that apply, for example,
make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
to agriculture.
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Fifty per cent of Welsh (Steve Barclay): Since our last departmental questions,
lamb is consumed elsewhere in the UK and 45% of it we have contested the general election, where Brexit was
goes to the European Union, so Welsh hill farmers will the defining issue, and been given a renewed mandate
probably be the most exposed of all if there is a no-deal by the British people to leave the European Union. As a
Brexit at the end of this year. Will the Secretary of State result, we have been able to bring the withdrawal agreement
do everything in his power to ensure that the Government back before the House. As was shown during its Committee
do not sign off on a deal unless it ensures tariff-free stage this week, it is the will of this House that we now
access for lamb into the European Union? implement that decision.
Steve Barclay: The whole point of the deal—I hope That has been reflected, as referred to by the Chair of
the hon. Gentleman supports it on Third Reading—is the Brexit Select Committee, the right hon. Member for
that it ensures that we will leave in a smooth and orderly Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), in the decision to disband
way. The specific issues of hill farmers are matters for the Department for Exiting the European Union, as its
both the negotiation and the Agriculture Bill. I am sure purpose will have been achieved. I would like to take
he, among others, will contribute to that debate. this opportunity to place on the record my thanks to all
the officials in the Department and across Whitehall
who have worked so tirelessly over the last three years to
Mr Speaker: Question 14. Karl McCartney. achieve this result, and to thank all my colleagues who
have served in ministerial roles in the Department.
Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): Thank you,
Mr Speaker. It is good to be back—and I do like your Yesterday, the Prime Minister and I met the new
socks. European Commission President and the European
Union chief negotiator to discuss our shared desire for
what the President described as a unique partnership
Fishing and Marine Policy reflecting our shared values as friends and neighbours.
During the three years that the Department has been
14. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What recent in place, it has had three Secretaries of State and three
discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for permanent secretaries but, since the first departmental
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on (a) fishing questions, just one shadow Brexit Secretary. Throughout
and (b) marine policy after the UK leaves the EU. my interactions with the right hon. and learned Member
[900014] for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), he has
always been both professional and courteous while
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union probing and challenging. Without wishing in any way
(Steve Barclay): I welcome my hon. Friend back to his to jinx his next steps, may I place on the record his
place as a great champion of the constituency of Lincoln. contribution to the scrutiny of the Government, which
We continue to have regular conversations with ministerial I am sure will continue in whatever role he plays in the
colleagues on all aspects of exiting the European Union, House moving forward?
including fisheries and marine policy.
Nigel Mills: Does the Secretary of State agree that
Mr Speaker: Topical questions. Nigel Mills. [Interruption.] close working between UK authorities and their equivalents
Sorry—supplementary question, Karl McCartney. on the continent is key to making our future relationship
601 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 602

work? Now that we have nearly agreed an orderly exit, Steve Barclay: The shadow Brexit Secretary is right:
will he confirm that discussions between tax authorities there clearly has been anxiety among Labour Members,
in the UK and France on ensuring that customs processes but I hope that he takes assurance from the explanation
are streamlined can start, and will not continue to be I gave that the commitment is unchanged. That is
blocked by the European Commission? reflected in the letter of 22 October to the Commission
from the Home Secretary, and in the manifesto. The
Steve Barclay: It is not so much a question of whether policy is unchanged. It is right that the Bill should, as is
those discussions need to start; they have started. In our traditional, implement the international agreement; that
contingency planning for an exit without a withdrawal is what it will do.
agreement, there was a lot of discussion on how we
would manage frictions at our borders, and much of T3. [900028] Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con):
that can be taken forward, such as the Treasury’s In beautiful Hastings and Rye, we have two ancient
commitment to driving productivity and improving fishing communities, one of which is the under-10 metre
connectivity and flow through our ports. There is work beach-launch fleet, which is, by its very nature,
on this already; my hon. Friend is quite right to draw environmentally and ecologically responsive and
attention to it, and we intend to build on it. sustainable. It is vital that this ancient fishing tradition
be given room and opportunity to flourish. Can the
Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Secretary of State confirm that specific attention will be
I thank the Secretary of State for his kind words. I given to our under-10 metre boats, so that they are
appreciate the relationship that we have had, and, in given more autonomy and flexibility in a post-Brexit
particular, his kindness when my father died at the tail Britain?
end of 2018, which touched me personally. I welcome
the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Joy Morrissey) and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting
all Members, but I strongly dissociate myself from the the European Union (James Duddridge): May I take the
words of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State opportunity to say that I have the utmost respect for the
about the former right hon. and learned Member for previous Member for Beaconsfield? I was simply trying
Beaconsfield, who gave distinguished service in this to say that as a Government Minister, I found the
House, including as Attorney General for the Government. particular line of questioning raised by my hon. Friend
I hope that there might be an opportunity to correct the the Member for Beaconsfield (Joy Morrissey) much
record on that. more helpful to respond to. I hope that the House will
Yesterday, the Government voted down the Opposition’s take that as an apology to the previous Member for
amendment on unaccompanied child refugees. Our Beaconsfield.
amendment would have preserved the victory that Lord
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings
Alf Dubs had campaigned for. I have always had a good
and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart) on her question, and on her
personal relationship with the Secretary of State, but
election to the House. I can confirm that we will pay
whatever he says about the wider issues, he must know
special attention to the 10-metre fleet; it is an issue that
that the Government have got this wrong. This could be
I am aware of, as a coastal MP; in Southend, we have
his last Brexit oral questions; is he prepared to reconsider?
some under-10 metre boats. I also confirm that as we
I urge him to do so.
leave the EU and become an independent coastal state,
the Government will develop a domestic fisheries policy
Steve Barclay: To understand the context, it is important that promotes that fleet, which is profitable and diverse,
to look at the commitment the Government gave to and uses traditional practices to protect stocks and our
commencing negotiations on this issue, as reflected in precious marine environment.
the letter of 22 October from the Home Secretary to the
European Commission. As was touched on in earlier
questions, the Government have a strong record on this. T7. [900032] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington)
They take 15% of unaccompanied child refugees; we (Lab): For many decades, our creative industries and
are one of the top three EU countries in that regard. particularly our performing arts have been a major
That commitment on granting asylum and supporting export of the UK. Will the Minister explain what
refugees remains; it is actually embedded in our manifesto, discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for
on page 23. In the European Union (Withdrawal Digital, Culture, Media and Sport about the impacts of
Agreement) Bill, we return to the traditional approach, Brexit—a hard no-deal Brexit, in particular—on the
in which the Government undertake the negotiation movement of our performing arts between here and
and Parliament scrutinises that, rather than Parliament Europe?
setting the terms, as happened in the last Parliament.
Steve Barclay: I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman
Keir Starmer: I am disappointed by the Secretary of has drawn the House’s attention to a sector that is
State’s reply. Labour will continue to fight to protect the extremely important to the potential of the UK. I have
most vulnerable. We may not win many votes in Parliament discussed the issue with my ministerial colleagues. As
just now, but we can win the moral argument. I urge for his characterisation, part of the reason for the
everyone who cares about the issue to put pressure on withdrawal agreement Bill, which I hope he will support
the Government, and urge Ministers to rethink this on Third Reading, is to secure the rights of the 3 million
disgraceful decision. A legal obligation on the Government EU citizens, many of whom contribute to the creative
has been converted into reliance on the Prime Minister’s arts. Future policy, however, is for the immigration Bill,
word. Surely the Secretary of State can see why that where we will design something that is targeted at talents,
gives rise to anxiety among Labour Members. including the talents of those in the creative industries.
603 Oral Answers 9 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 604

T4. [900029] Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): with the alumna of the London School of Economics.
May I say how warming it is to be greeted by a fellow This being our last oral questions, I thank civil servants
Lancastrian? Does my right hon. Friend agree that his for their support. I particularly thank my private office
Department should be commended for ensuring that and Cara Phillips. They have been wonderful.
this Government will deliver on the verdict and the will
of the British people, in that we will leave the European Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The
Union on 31 January? With the closure of DExEU at Secretary of State knows that Airbus contributes billions
the end of this month, perhaps he is a victim of his own of pounds in taxation, employs tens of thousands of
success. people and wants business continuity after a short
transition period. Will he give an undertaking today
Steve Barclay: It must be a happy day, and one to that the European Union Aviation Safety Agency will
celebrate, when there are so many Lancastrians in the continue as is—rather than us inventing new, bespoke
House. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the regulatory systems for the sake of divergence—so that
achievements of officials within the Department who Airbus can plan ahead, invest and continue to make its
have worked so hard to support the Government in contribution to our economy?
getting this deal. It is an important moment, and in
part, the closure of the Department will enable us to Steve Barclay: The hon. Gentleman correctly draws
take the expertise built up by officials over the past the House’s attention to an important issue, and one for
three years into those Departments that will be front the future negotiations. As he knows, however, in the
and centre in the trade negotiations. political declaration there is scope for such participation.
What was constructive and positive about the remarks
T8. [900033] Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) of the President of the European Commission yesterday,
(Lab): Will the Minister confirm whether EU citizens which were reflected in the meeting with the Prime
who work and pay taxes in the UK post Brexit will be Minister, was the desire to build on that close partnership.
liable for the immigration health surcharge? Does he The sort of areas where there will be detailed discussion
envisage similar charges being introduced for UK will be on aircraft and other such sectors.
citizens living and working in the EU?
T9. [900034] Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con): Through
Steve Barclay: I am happy to guarantee to all those the EU single market, our supermarkets lever enormous
EU citizens living in the UK ahead of our exit that the power on food supply chain prices. Leaving the single
withdrawal agreement Bill guarantees their rights, among market is a huge opportunity for small farmers in this
which are their rights to healthcare. That is why I urge country. What steps will Her Majesty’s Government be
the hon. Gentleman to support the Bill on Third Reading. taking to redress that imbalance and to ensure a fair
price for our farmers, not only in West Dorset but
T5. [900030] Damien Moore (Southport) (Con): Will my across the United Kingdom? [R]
right hon. Friend confirm that the UK will remain an
open, dynamic and welcoming place for EU citizens to Steve Barclay: My hon. Friend is right to seize the
study in our world-class universities, and that Britain opportunities that Brexit offers, and that is particularly
continues to lead the way with the internationally recognised the case in agriculture. He well knows that the bureaucracy
quality of our higher education? of the common agricultural policy was an area of deep
frustration, with things such as the three-crop rule
James Duddridge: I thank my hon. Friend for that dictating to farmers who farm more than 30 hectares
question. The Government are clear that they wish to what they can and cannot grow. We should be setting
continue to attract students from the EU and the rest of farmers free and giving them those opportunities. Through
the world to study here in the UK. The UK’s higher the Agriculture Bill, we will have the chance to seize
education institutions have long-established traditions those opportunities, and I know that my hon. Friend
of attracting the brightest minds at all stages of their will be at the forefront of that for his constituents in
education and research careers, as we saw yesterday West Dorset.
605 9 JANUARY 2020 Football Association and Bet365 606

Football Association and Bet365 Three years ago, it appeared that the FA had turned a
corner when it ended a £4 million-a-year sponsorship
deal with Ladbrokes, distancing itself from the gambling
10.30 am industry—or so we assumed. However, what has come
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab) (Urgent Question): to light in recent days paints a very different picture.
To ask the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, In 2017, the Football Association agreed a streaming
Media and Sport if he will make a statement on the deal deal through sporting rights agency IMG, which will
between the Football Association and Bet365. run until 2024. That deal, thought to be worth in the
region of £750 million, allows IMG to sell on live
footage from cup matches to bookmakers and betting
The Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries
firms around the globe. Gambling companies can then
(Nigel Adams): I will respond on behalf of the Secretary
stream matches on their websites and mobile apps,
of State to this urgent question.
forcing fans to “bet to view” if they want to watch their
Recent reports on the streaming of FA cup matches team.
by online bookmakers have rightly caused concern across
We already know of some of the UK-based gambling
the House. They relate to a media rights deal agreed by
companies who took part in the deal, but there are
the FA with IMG in early 2017, within which IMG
likely to be many more, both at home and across the
could sell on live footage or clips of certain FA cup
world. I dread to think how many people will take the
matches to commercial partners. Bet365 and six other
bait and place their first bet as a result of this deal, and
betting operators acquired those rights from IMG to
how many could spiral into a dark addiction off the
use from the start of 2018-19 season.
back of it. Just last weekend, Bet365 broadcast 32 FA
It is right that sporting organisations have the freedom cup matches online, in comparison with only two on
to benefit commercially from their products and negotiate terrestrial free-to-air television. To watch the matches
their own broadcasting deals, but football authorities on Bet365’s site, fans had to either place a bet before
also have an important responsibility to ensure that kick-off or open an account with a £5 deposit. Bet365
fans are protected from the risks of problem gambling. heavily promoted the matches on social media beforehand,
Since the deal was agreed, the FA has rightly reviewed offering tips to lure potential gamblers. Betting odds
its position on commercial relationships with gambling then accompanied the live footage, tempting viewers to
firms. It has ended a commercial partnership with gamble more.
Ladbrokes and announced that it will be reviewing its Everything about the deal is shameful, everything
processes for tendering rights from the 2024-25 season about it needs to be dealt with and everything about the
onwards, and it is absolutely correct that it does so. Gambling Act 2005 needs reform. The Gambling
The Secretary of State and I made our views quite Commission certainly needs reform. I thank the Prime
clear yesterday and have done so previously on the Minister for his comments, but I urge the Government
wider responsibilities of sport and gambling sectors to to do more to protect vulnerable people.
their fans, their customers and our wider communities.
We therefore welcome the fact that the industry has Nigel Adams: I congratulate the hon. Member, who I
responded to public concern by introducing a whistle- know is passionate about this issue and has campaigned
to-whistle ban on TV advertising during daytime sport, very effectively in the House. The Government are also
and that the FA introduced a rule last year that prevents very angry about this arrangement, especially after a
players, managers and members of staff in any capacity weekend when the FA worthily highlighted its Heads
from deliberately taking part in audio or audio-visual Together mental health campaign.
advertising to actively encourage betting.
I have spoken at some length to the FA since this
While many people enjoy gambling as a leisure broke. The arrangement has been in place for some
pursuit, we cannot forget that it carries a high risk of time; the 2017 contract was a rollover of a deal. The
harm and can have a serious impact on individuals, Government have asked the Football Association to
families and communities. All of us—Governments, look at all avenues to review this element of its broadcasting
gambling companies and sporting authorities—need to agreement. This element of the broadcast arrangement
keep the momentum going so that we can protect is for matches that are not chosen for the FA cup online
vulnerable people from the risk of gambling-related broadcast or do not kick off at 3 pm on a Saturday, and
harm. it does open up the opportunity for plenty of other
games to be watched, but we have asked the FA in no
Carolyn Harris: Problem gambling in the UK is now uncertain terms to look at the deal and to see what
so endemic that it should be treated as a public health opportunities there are to rescind this particular element.
crisis. It causes untold misery to those affected and their I will be meeting face to face with the FA next week.
families. Too many times, I have sat with men and
women who are cursed with an addiction and who are Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I congratulate
battling mental health issues. Too many times, I have the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) on
listened to the heart-wrenching grief of a partner, sibling securing this urgent question. I welcome the Minister’s
or parent whose loved one has taken their life because comments following the Prime Minister’s earlier call for
the demon became too big to fight. Again and again, I this unacceptable deal to be scrapped. It is unacceptable
have stood in this Chamber and vocalised my shock, my because it goes in completely the wrong direction; it is
anger and my utter disgust at the greed and immoral the gamblification of sport. It seriously damages the
behaviour of the gambling companies. It saddens me reputation of both the Football Association and IMG.
that I am having to do it yet again, yet here we are—the Does the Minister agree that the FA should return, as
first urgent question of the new year. soon as possible, to working to reduce the links between
607 Football Association and Bet365 9 JANUARY 2020 Football Association and Bet365 608

[Richard Graham] that I have received several commitments from the

Football Association: it will not renew the deal when it
football and gambling, and that it should do away with comes up and it is also looking at all options to see if
this deal and avoid the proven risks of relentless online the current deal can be restricted.
marketing, particularly on young men? I urge all other sporting bodies to look at their
broadcast agreements. My understanding is that similar
Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right. I have spoken agreements are in place across all sports, not just football
with him about his constituency concerns about this in this country. It is a global arrangement. The Olympics,
issue. It is absolutely right that the Football Association FIFA and the Premier League do not have such
and all sporting bodies who, rightly, have links with broadcasting arrangements, but just about every other
sponsors across all sectors need to be very mindful of sporting body does. I urge all those bodies to ensure
the impacts that such deals have on vulnerable people. that they review their broadcast deals urgently.
We have made that very clear to the FA. As I said earlier
to the hon. Member for Swansea East, the FA is looking Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I
into how it can alter the arrangements under that deal congratulate the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn
in the shortest order. Harris) on securing the urgent question, and I know
that my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): Thank Graham) tabled a similar urgent question, showing the
you for granting this important urgent question, cross-party concern on the issue.
Mr Speaker. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member
for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for asking it. Many The deal with Bet365 is distasteful, naive and a long
people are outraged that gambling firm Bet365 has won way short of what good governance of sport, especially
the rights to broadcast FA cup matches exclusively football, should look like. But it also contradicts previous
through its website and applications, because we are all FA decisions dissociating itself, as the sport’s regulator,
too aware of the devastating impact that gambling can from betting companies. Those decisions recognised
have on lives. At the heart of this issue is the cynical way public concern about gambling in football and dovetailed
Bet365 hooks people into placing bets and gambling nicely with the FA’s mental health work. I encourage the
during matches, almost grooming people into becoming Minister not to listen too closely to the FA’s defence on
gamblers. the issue and claims that any renegotiation of the deal
will have an impact on grassroots sport. That is something
We know the link between gambling, mental health that the FA has regularly claimed in the past, but it is
and suicide is real. My constituent Kay Wadsworth’s important that it reviews the deal now, to protect people
only daughter Kimberly took her own life when she was involved in football. Does the Minister agree that that
in the grip of gambling addiction. Her death destroyed needs to be done urgently if the FA is to regain respect
her family and brought unimaginable heartache. Think for its previous moral position on the issue of gambling?
of the hundreds like Kimberly out there who might
enjoy football, but find their lives ruined by addiction.
Nigel Adams: As the House knows, my hon. Friend
Yesterday the Secretary of State made strong statements, has done an incredible amount over the years and she is
and even Gary Lineker and the Prime Minister agreed passionate about this subject. It is fair to say that the
that the FA should reconsider. Has the Prime Minister arrangements for cutting the stakes on fixed odds betting
spoken to the FA in the last 24 hours? Will the FA listen terminals and tightening the requirements on age and
to the wishes of the Prime Minister? identity verification to protect customers have a lot to
Bet365 has stated that those who wished to watch do with her work in the House.
matches did not need to gamble, but they did need to It is absolutely right that the FA act urgently on the
deposit money into an account, which meant that viewers matter. From our conversation this morning, it is fair to
were bombarded with live odds throughout the match. say that the FA is more than embarrassed by the situation.
What protections have been put in place for gambling We will make it very clear when we have a face-to-face
addicts? Is the Minister aware of any assessment that meeting early next week what steps we expect it to take
the FA made on the potential impact the deal could next.
have on vulnerable people and the health of viewers?
When was the Department first made aware of the deal
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
by the FA, and what was the Department’s response?
(SNP): The deal between the English FA and IMG/Bet365
Was it deemed acceptable or not? Will the Minister
—and, indeed, six other bookmakers—is, as the Minister
commit to write to all our sporting governing bodies
has outlined, to be regretted. It shows the danger of
and those who sell the rights to sport so that we do not
selling media rights to third parties without correct
end up in this situation with another sport?
oversight of the process. Gambling addiction is on the
It feels as though most of the House is united on this rise in the UK, so every gateway to gambling and the
issue. The Queen’s Speech made a commitment to review problems it creates needs to be scrutinised intensely.
the Gambling Act 2005. Will the Minister update us on Online gambling in particular has experienced a huge
when that review will begin? increase in activity, with more than one third of the
EU’s online betting taking place in the UK. There has
Nigel Adams: I welcome the shadow Secretary of been progress through measures to address fixed odds
State to her place. The arrangement through IMG is betting terminals in the past year—with the hon. Member
not solely with Bet365, as six other gambling companies for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), who asked
have rights to the broadcasts. I have spoken to the the previous question, at the heart of that move. Do the
Football Association and the Prime Minister has made Government intend to pursue similar proactive measures
his views clear. The hon. Lady will be pleased to hear before the FA’s next media rights review?
609 Football Association and Bet365 9 JANUARY 2020 Football Association and Bet365 610

A tiny percentage of live football is now available on that if this development is not nipped in the bud we
terrestrial TV. Does the Minister agree that ensuring might reach a position where people can watch sport
that more football, and more sport generally, is broadcast only if they have placed a bet?
on free-to-access television would remove potentially
dangerous gambling gateways such as this one? Nigel Adams: I am confident that that will not happen.
The hon. Gentleman is correct about the commitment
to the ban on in-game advertising, and it is important
Nigel Adams: Yes, I do. The hon. Gentleman is correct:
that we look at the data on that. It has only just kicked
we would like to see far more live sport on terrestrial
in, but we should welcome the fact that the industry has
television. However, it is worth pointing out that the
stepped up and introduced that measure. I assure him
games we are discussing are one of three tranches of
that we will monitor it extremely carefully.
games. They are not FA cup games that kick off at
3 o’clock on a Saturday. They are not games that are Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): Does my
chosen by the broadcasters for live broadcast. As the hon. Friend agree that we should work with banks as
competition goes on, there will be fewer games. However, well as betting companies to ensure that the sort of
that is largely irrelevant. Let me deal with the issue at behaviour that suggests that someone is developing a
hand. It is worth pointing out that, as I have mentioned gambling addition is spotted? I raise that because Bet365
previously, it is an issue across all sports. We want to do is a major, well respected and responsible employer in
all we can to ensure that there is more sport on terrestrial my constituency, employing several thousand people.
TV, but we have to be mindful of the fact that the rights We need to get the balance right in how we tackle this
holders can conduct their commercial deals themselves. issue and who we talk to, and recognise that there are
However, they have to be responsible. The hon. Gentleman other issues at stake.
will know that our manifesto said that we would review
the Gambling Act 2005. I am glad that the Under-Secretary Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend and new colleague is
of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. correct. Bet365 is a significant employer in her area and
Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen it is right that it takes its responsibilities very seriously. I
Whately), who is responsible for gambling, is in her urge her to seek a meeting with the Under-Secretary of
place and I am sure that we will come to the House in State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon.
future to clarify when that review will take place. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen
Whately), who is responsible for gambling and who I
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford know will be interested in furthering that discussion.
Green) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member
for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) on obtaining the Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP): This is not about
urgent question. In a sense, it does not really matter sport any more—we have gone way beyond that. This is
what the FA says to explain. The evidence is clear. The entirely about gambling. It is not about the love of the
all-party parliamentary group on gambling-related harm game; it is about the unrestricted greed of Bet365.
conducted a series of inquiries with the chief executives Right now, it is streaming 21 live events, covering eight
of several gambling companies. The biggest area of risk different sports. Its design is to get people who have
is their drive to get more and more people into VIP self-excluded from gambling to race to a gambling
rooms, where they give them incentives, such as tickets company and lay themselves open to lobbying once
for football matches. What we are discussing is all part again. People who have identified themselves as suffering
of that. The biggest abuse takes place in that process, from gambling-related harm are being asked to put
whereby companies drive people who gamble a lot into themselves back in a vulnerable position simply to
higher levels of gambling because that is where their watch their chosen sports. The Government should stop
profits lie. It is not good enough for the FA to say, asking the gambling industry to act; they have to tell the
“Well, we didn’t really mean this and we’ll review it.” industry what to do. We have to legislate; we cannot
The Government give the FA financial assistance. I urge kowtow to the industry and let it have authority in this.
my hon. Friend, as Minister for Sport, to tell the FA This place makes the law. The gambling industry has to
that unless it moves on the matter pretty damn quickly, be brought into line with a completely new gambling
we will review its financial support. Act, and during that process we should consult people
who have suffered from gambling-related harm.
Nigel Adams: My right hon. Friend has a long history
Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman is spot-on. That is
of campaigning on this issue, and he is absolutely
another reason why we are going to review the Gambling
correct. On his first point, the Gambling Commission is
Act—and the sooner we do so the better as far as I am
looking into the matter. As for the financial assistance
concerned.
the Government give the Football Association, I understand
the Football Foundation receives about £18 million, Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I
and my right hon. Friend will be aware of our manifesto believe the deal cheapens the FA cup, and I do not
commitment to £500 million for grassroots football. I believe we should wait four years for a review. If the FA
assure him that that will be on my agenda when I meet will not change its mind and act soon, will the Minister
the FA next week. consider amending the Gambling Act to ban the type of
sponsorship deal that requires sports fans to set up
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): The gambling accounts simply to watch sports?
betting companies know there is a problem already,
because they have undertaken not to advertise during Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is right. Nothing is off
live football matches, but of course that has not yet the table in the review. I can tell the House that this
been implemented. Does the Minister share my concern morning the FA confirmed that from next year, 2021, it
611 Football Association and Bet365 9 JANUARY 2020 Football Association and Bet365 612

[Nigel Adams] We have done a lot to make the physical gambling

environment safer for users, but the online environment
will show those particular games on its website, so that remains like the wild west. I encourage him to use not
they are not available exclusively via gambling sites. only his relationships with sporting organisations but
That is progress, but we have asked the FA to consider digital regulation and those powers to take action to
all the options for restricting the deal sooner. make it safer.

Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab): The Minister has Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is correct to raise this
several times mentioned the review he is going to undertake, issue. The history of the broadcasting of these games
which was in the Queen’s Speech. Will he tell us when goes back to the 1980s, when they were shown in betting
that is going to happen, as he did not answer the shops; they were games that people would not see
question from my Front-Bench colleague? broadcast, so they would go in to get updated on the
score, and the pictures would be fairly low resolution.
Nigel Adams: Work has started on the review, but I That market has now changed and the pictures—the
am not in a position to give the hon. Lady a date. This streams—are now online. That is exactly why we are
will be done in due course and Ministers will make the going to have the review we have announced.
announcement when that is ready.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD):
Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): I sense the frustration This has undoubtedly damaged the FA’s reputation. Is
of the Minister and the whole House that he has had to the Minister going to meet Bet365? I do not believe that
come to the Dispatch Box again to explain the actions a renegotiation is enough; we need redress. The new
of these clowns at the Football Association. Does he accounts set up in the past week were not just about
agree that this is more than goes on in other sports, people making bets this week; the company will have
because the national game permeates right through our harvested the data of those vulnerable users so that it
society and we must therefore take it absolutely seriously? can keep advertising to them for the future. Will it shut
Will he widen his discussions to look at areas of poor down those accounts and give that data back, too?
governance in the national game, such as bullying,
safeguarding and the poor deal for football fans? There
Nigel Adams: It is worth pointing out again that
is a canker at the heart of our national game and we
seven gambling companies are involved in this arrangement
need to sort it out.
with IMG. I know that the FA is in constant contact
Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is correct; we are with IMG, and they have been put in no doubt about
regularly in conversation with the FA on these issues. I our views on the current arrangement.
know he is an active member of the Select Committee—at
least he was, and he may very well continue to be—and Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): I,
we will ensure that he is updated on the conversations too, congratulate the hon. Member for Swansea East
that we have. (Carolyn Harris) on securing this urgent question, and I
thank the Minister for what he has said. He is right to
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Does the highlight the progress that the FA has made on football
Minister accept that this is just another example, but a and betting, but does he agree that bad decisions such
serious one, of the FA’s dumbing down of the wonderful as this one are in danger of making that perception of
competition that is the FA cup? I do not know whether progress disappear in a puff of smoke? Given that there
the Minister is old enough to remember, but I am sure will be an increase in gambling as a result of this
you are, Mr Speaker, when most games kicked off at deal—after all, that is why Bet365 has engaged in it—there
3 o’clock on a Saturday afternoon in the third round of will also be an increase in problem gambling. That
the FA cup—to suit fans, not to suit the media companies needs to be properly monitored, that monitoring will
and the betting companies. When he has that conversation have a cost and that cost should be paid by Bet365 and
with the FA, will he raise that general issue and say that the FA. If it can be demonstrated that there has been an
this competition must be about the fans? It is their increase in problem gambling, that should bring forward
competition, and the interests of the media and betting the review of the deal.
companies should not be taken as the first priority.
Nigel Adams: The former Secretary of State makes
Nigel Adams: I agree 100% with the hon. Gentleman. an incredibly good point. As I said to the Chairman of
I do have fond memories of racing home from playing the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for
football to watch the FA cup final and various other Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), nothing is off
matches. There could be an argument for saying that the the table in respect of the conversations that we will
competition has been watered down in some regards, as have with the FA.
we see when we look at what players the teams put out
on the pitch. He is absolutely right with his remarks. Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Child gambling
addiction has doubled since 2017 and, shockingly, around
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I have met far 70,000 children are said to be at risk. Is the Minister
too many families who have been bereaved by suicide as concerned that this deal will make the situation worse?
a result of a gambling addiction. I am extremely
disappointed that the FA has made lots of nods about Nigel Adams: The hon. Member is correct to raise
looking after mental health and mental wellbeing but that point. Gambling sponsorship and advertising must
embarked on such a partnership. We should give a clear be responsible and must not be targeted at children, so
message from both sides of the House that we find we expect all sports bodies to consider the effect on
this abhorrent. their fans when they engage in any commercial relationship.
613 Football Association and Bet365 9 JANUARY 2020 Football Association and Bet365 614

I thank the Secretary of State for Health and Social people to watch these matches free of charge, because
Care, who was present a second ago but is no longer in some people in this House do not like gambling. Will
his place, because yesterday the NHS and GambleAware the Minister look at all this in the round?
opened a clinic in Sunderland to assist those who have
gambling issues. I understand that another dozen or so Nigel Adams: I think everybody in this House can
gambling clinics are to be opened throughout the country, agree that problem gambling causes mental health problems.
which is good progress and will give people the right Indeed, this House has heard about—and I have spoken
advice. to colleagues about—situations when some of these
cases have led to suicide. There is a clear link; mental
Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con): The football health problems can lead to problem gambling, and can
community has done some excellent work on mental also be triggered by or made worse by it. The Government
health, including the Take A Minute campaign. Everyone and the Gambling Commission have tightened protections,
in this place cares passionately about the mental health and we have committed to a further review of the
of all those we seek to serve in our constituencies. Does Gambling Act, as I said in my response to the urgent
my hon. Friend agree that this deal puts that work at question.
risk, and will he join me in calling on the FA to
reconsider? Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab):
This issue is perhaps the most egregious example of
While he is on his feet, will he remember the fans in how money is ruining football. It is clear that, with one
Scunthorpe and wish Scunthorpe United the best of or two exceptions, there is very little support in this
luck on Saturday? place for this arrangement.
Nigel Adams: May I welcome my hon. Friend to her I want to follow up on the wider issue of football
place? I certainly will wish Scunthorpe United the best broadcasting. Last month, three different subscription
of luck— channels were showing premier league football. How
many times do we expect people to pay to watch football?
Are we in danger of pricing people out of the game?
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Who are they
playing? Nigel Adams: The hon. Gentleman makes a very
good point. We do want to see more live football on
Nigel Adams: The hon. Member asks who they are television, which makes it more accessible, but it is
playing; I can tell him that as a youngster I used to be worth pointing out that the broader FA cup rights are
dragged along to Scunthorpe to watch Scunthorpe United. worth around $169 million to the Football Association,
That was some years ago. I was a very lucky child. much of which—if not most—is ploughed back into
The irony of this story having blown up this weekend grassroots football.
is that the FA was launching its Heads Together mental
health campaign. It could not have been any more Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): Does my hon. Friend
badly timed. As I have said, we have given clear instructions agree that all our legislation needs to be fit for purpose
to the FA to look into every avenue possible to have this for the digital age, especially when it relates to online
deal changed. activities and their impact on health and mental health?
Does he also agree that the review of the Gambling Act
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Let us be honest: is not only needed, but urgently needed?
betting companies disproportionately target low-income
demographics and working-class communities. I see Nigel Adams: I could not agree more.
that in my own constituency, with three betting shops
lined up next to each other in Baillieston Main Street. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Can I pull the Minister
The Minister continually says that all sports are involved; up on the point that he just made, when he said that a
can he really put his hand on his heart and say that large proportion of the money from broadcasting rights
cricket, for example, would have the same disproportionate is going into grassroots football? If only! It is a tiny
targeting and investment as we see with football? amount of money. In other countries in Europe, much
more significant amounts of money go into paying for
local coaches, local facilities and ensuring that there is
Nigel Adams: I understand that similar arrangements home-grown talent. Should not we be ensuring—
have been made in cricket. I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman, notwithstanding today’s urgent question—that far more
hand on heart, whether those arrangements have the of this money goes directly to the small local clubs that
same extent and the same number of matches. It may be are sustained by families, with mums, dads, grandpas
that more FA cup matches than cricket games are and grandmas turning up every weekend?
covered under these broadcasting deals.
Nigel Adams: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman’s
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What is important are latter point, but I was referring to the broadcasting
measures that actually tackle problem gambling, rather rights and the amount of money secured under the FA
than virtue signalling in this House. People do not have cup broadcasting deal, not the premier league broadcasting
to place a bet to watch these matches. Is it not typical of deal, which is an enormous amount of money.
the metropolitan, privileged outlook of people in this
House that there is no urgent question on people having Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): There
to pay £100 a month for a Sky subscription to watch is an obvious link between gambling and health, so
football matches? There is no urgent question on people what are the Minister’s Department and the Department
paying £35 a month to BT to watch football matches, of Health doing to improve medical treatment for those
but there is one on something that allows working-class affected by gambling?
615 Football Association and Bet365 9 JANUARY 2020 616

Nigel Adams: I welcome my hon. Friend to his place. Business of the House
He makes a very good point. As I said previously, I am
encouraged that the national health service and the
Health Secretary have begun to open clinics to provide 11.11 am
advice and assistance to those who are affected, in Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Will the Leader of
particular targeting younger people who might be having the House please give us the forthcoming business?
issues with loot boxes or other types of behaviour that
could prove addictive.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Rees-Mogg): May I begin by wishing everybody a very
This issue raises fundamental public policy questions happy new year and welcoming them all back after the
about ethics, fair rules and controls, and the responsibility Christmas break?
of the Government to protect the most vulnerable from The business for next week will be:
exploitation. It also fundamentally calls into question MONDAY 13 JANUARY—Continuation of the debate on
the judgment of the FA. The chief executive officer of the Queen’s Speech on Britain in the world.
Bet365, Denise Coates, was paid £277 million in basic TUESDAY 14 JANUARY—Continuation of the debate on
salary in the last financial year. Does that not suggest the Queen’s Speech on education and local government.
that something is fundamentally wrong with our gambling
system and industry, and again highlight the need for WEDNESDAY 15 JANUARY—Continuation of the debate
fundamental root-and-branch reform? on the Queen’s Speech on a green industrial revolution.
THURSDAY 16 JANUARY—Continuation of the debate
Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady will not have missed the on the Queen’s Speech on health and social care.
point that I have made on several occasions: we are FRIDAY 17 JANUARY—The House will not be sitting.
going to be reviewing the Act. Bet365 does an awful lot
of good work in the region that my hon. Friend the The provisional business for the following week will
Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) mentioned. include:
It is a private company. The salaries of its executives are MONDAY 20 JANUARY—Conclusion of the debate on
a matter for that business. My understanding is that the the Queen’s Speech on the economy and jobs.
chief executive is resident in the UK and so pays her full I am pleased to announce that subject to the progress
share of tax on those moneys. But it is absolutely right of business, the House will rise for the constituency recess
that we hold the sporting bodies’ feet to the fire with at the conclusion of business on Thursday 13 February
regard to these broadcasting rights and make sure that and return on Monday 24 February. For Easter, the
they are dealt with responsibly. In this case, that has not House will rise at the conclusion of business on Tuesday
happened. 31 March and return on Tuesday 21 April. For the early
May bank holiday, the House will rise at the conclusion
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): There is a of business on Wednesday 6 May and return on Monday
mental health crisis for young men in our country, and 11 May. The House will rise for the Whitsun recess at
it is clear that gambling addiction is a major factor in the conclusion of business on Thursday 21 May and
that. Time and again we hear that the gambling companies return on Tuesday 2 June. For the summer recess, the
are investing more funds in tackling problem gambling, House will rise at the conclusion of business on Tuesday
but will the Minister update the House on whether this 21 July and return on Tuesday 8 September. Finally, the
investment has actually had any impact in tackling this conference recess will commence at the close of business
issue? on Thursday 17 September with the House returning on
Tuesday 13 October—which hon. and right hon. Members
Nigel Adams: I do not have the figures that my hon. will know is the anniversary of the birth of the late
Friend refers to, but this is an absolutely crucial issue in Baroness Thatcher.
the sector of society that he mentions, which appears to
be the target for this type of advertising. There is indeed
a huge crisis in gambling addiction within that age Valerie Vaz: I start by wishing everyone a happy new
group, and it can lead to some pretty horrific stories year—and you, Mr Speaker. I am very pleased that you
that we have heard in this House. now have your full cohort of deputies in place. I thank
the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete
Wishart) for his sterling work in the House at business
questions and welcome the hon. Member for Edinburgh
East (Tommy Sheppard), who has taken over his post.
I thank the Leader of the House for next week’s
business; in fact, we have a week and a day. Will the
Prime Minister be making a statement following his
discussions with the EU President, as the previous
Prime Minister always did? She always updated the
House.
The Leader of the House has very helpfully set out
the recess dates and sitting days right up until 13 October.
It feels a bit mean to ask him for the Christmas dates as
well, but it would be very helpful if he could say how
long the Session will be and also give the dates of the
sitting Fridays.
617 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 618

There are rumours about proposed machinery of The Leader of the House will know, because he
government changes. They are just rumours at the tweets, that Gabriella Zaghari-Ratcliffe is now at school
minute, but I know that the business managers have here—#pleasebringmymummyback. I hope the Leader
been working hard to try to allocate Chairs of Committees. of the House will do everything he can to do that.
Will the Leader of the House make a commitment that Finally, I want to thank the staff of the House for
if any changes affect the Opposition allocation, he will staffing the super-hub. It was very effective for new
honour the commitment to renegotiate that? Please do Members and for old Members like me. I used it yesterday,
not be the Leader of the House who does not commit to and Members have one day left.
fairness and the convention.
One Committee that has not been set up yet is the Mr Rees-Mogg: May I add to the right hon. Lady’s
Backbench Business Committee. My hon. Friend the words about the hon. Member for Perth and North
Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) did a grand job as Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who will be very much missed
Chair, and I hope he will continue in that post. He and from these sessions? It always amazed me how a man of
others are keen to get the Committee set up. In the such gentleness, courtesy and kindliness in private always
meantime, he has helpfully given the Clerks some subjects managed to be so fiendishly angry in the Chamber. I
for debate that can be rolled over. Could the Leader of look forward to seeing whether the hon. Member for
the House have a discussion with him? I am sure that Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), who I know is also
my hon. Friend will raise that later. a model of kindliness, will be similarly angry when he
It is interesting that the Leader of the House has not gets up to speak in a moment, but I look forward to our
announced the date of the Budget to the House, but it exchanges.
has been announced outside this place. That is quite The right hon. Lady asked 11 individual questions,
concerning. He could have made a statement. He made and I will do my best to answer them all. The House will
lots of statements before the House rose, coming to the always be updated by the Government on really important
House practically twice or three times a day. issues. The Prime Minister, in the last Session of Parliament,
Another thing that the Government have announced averaged 36 minutes a day at the Dispatch Box during
outside the House but not to it is a review, to be the time he was Prime Minister, so I think he has been
concluded by mid-February, of the roll-out of the IR35 ahead of almost any other previous Prime Minister in
tax plan for the self-employed, which is due to take his assiduousness.
effect in April. May we have a statement on the exact As regards the Christmas recess—absolutely. We want
terms of that review and the measures that will be put in to ensure that there is reasonable notice for all recesses,
place to support the self-employed? The Opposition which I think is of general help not just to Members but
called for a review during the general election. This is to the staff of the House for planning their lives. This is
more chaos, and it is disgraceful—and so is the important for all of us, so we will try to give the longest
announcement on 23 December by the Secretary of notice we can, though I cannot yet give the length of the
State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy about Session—
the takeover of Cobham.
“This is a deeply disappointing announcement and one cynically Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Why?
timed to avoid scrutiny on the weekend before Christmas. In one
of its first major economic decisions, the Government is not Mr Rees-Mogg: Rhondda always wants to chip in.
taking back control so much as handing it away.” We might have thought that, after a little peace and
They are not my words but those of Lady Nadine quiet over Christmas, Rhondda would have calmed
Cobham, the daughter-in-law of the founder of that down, but no such luck. Because there is so much
brilliant British company. She said it would never have business to be brought forward, and that will depend on
been done by the US, French or Japanese Governments. the progress of business. That is a completely normal
All Advent has to do is promise to call the Ministry of approach.
Defence if it plans to sell up. The takeover does not As for sitting Fridays, we have only just had the
include a right to veto the disposal of these sensitive ballot, but of course we will bring those forward, and
defence assets. This is Government asset-stripping Britain the motion, as soon as is practicable. On the machinery
instead of protecting British interests. We need an urgent of Government changes, I got a little bit worried by a
statement from the Business Secretary. memo that said, “MOG changes”. I am not necessarily
I want to mention our colleague Andrew Miller, who so keen on such changes; I am rather used to being the
has sadly died. Being a new Member is quite disconcerting. Mogg that I am. However, I can absolutely assure the
Andrew was here when I was a new Member, and he right hon. Lady that any changes that are made will
was an assiduous Chair of the Science and Technology lead to consultation with the Opposition about any
Committee. We must also mention the three British changes to Committees. It is hoped that the motion in
nationals who died in the Ukrainian plane crash. I am relation to the sharing out of the Committees will be
pleased that the Government have scheduled a statement put on the Order Paper by the end of business today.
on the Australian bushfires. Many people here have That is not an absolute promise, but I understand that
friends and family living there who are affected. good progress has been made on coming to an agreement.
On a happier note, I want to congratulate my hon. I am indeed grateful to the hon. Member for Gateshead
Friends the Members for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) (Ian Mearns) for passing on a list of overhanging
and for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves) on the proposals from the Backbench Business Committee for
birth of their babies during the election. My hon. debates. Whether there will be a lot of time for non-
Friend the shadow Secretary of State for Wales is now a legislative business in the next few weeks, I am not
grandmother, and we welcome Jesse Thomas Francis absolutely certain, but it is useful to have that and to be
Kearney. We wish them well for the future. aware of it.
619 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 620

[Mr Rees-Mogg] curbing my enthusiasm for this one, but let me begin by
paying tribute and a word of thanks to my friend and
The Budget date—giving people plenty of notice—is colleague my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and
perfectly reasonable. I make announcements about the North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who preceded me in
business for a week or possibly for two weeks; I do not this role and who for a long shift—four and a half
intend to announce the business for March, so I think it years—stood here every Thursday to represent my party
would be unusual for me to be announcing that. I do in his own inimitable style. I intend to pick up where he
hope that in this Session of Parliament my appearances left off, and while the style may be different I assure
at the Dispatch Box will be once a week to set out the Members that the message will be the same.
business, rather than once or twice a day, which I think Let me also say that I very much look forward to a
was beginning to pall on everybody in the House. weekly verbal joust with the Leader of the House, and I
The IR35 review is extraordinarily important. It is a only hope that we do not have a spoilsport Prime
matter of concern to many of our constituents, and Minister who will dash my expectations by an imminent
something that came up in the election on a number of reshuffle and changing that position.
occasions. It is important that it is done in such a way Turning to the business statement itself, I have to
that people know what their tax affairs will be in April. observe that, given the times we are in, it does seem a
On the takeover of Cobham, the Government have to little self-indulgent to be spending six days debating
act within the legal parameters and the approach that what is essentially a mission statement by the Government
we generally take to takeovers, and announcements rather than any specific legislative proposals. I understand
must be made punctually. Sometimes when the House is that the Queen’s Speech debate is important, but is it
in recess announcements still have to be made. Saying it not time to get on to matters of substance? Even for a
was done just before Christmas is not a reasonable Government bathing in the afterglow of an election
criticism, because business goes on. victory that does seem a little excessive.
May I share in the right hon. Lady’s condolences to There are many things we ought to be discussing that
Andrew Miller’s family? It is always sad when we lose a are not in this business statement, and let me offer three
distinguished former Member of this House who has this morning. The first is the Government’s proposed
invariably been influential and important in the careers departmental reorganisation. If this House is to have
of existing Members. the role of scrutiny of the Executive, it is clearly important
There is indeed a statement coming on the Australian that we understand what the shape and structure of the
bushfires. I think all of us feel the deepest sympathy for Executive actually is. This House ought to be kept up to
the people of Australia, who for so many of us are kith date on the proposals being made for changes in
and kin, and there is therefore always a particular Government Departments so that we can consider what
concern with what is happening in Australia. changes we might need to make to our agenda and
The Ukrainian plane crash is something that needs to procedures in order to adequately hold them to account.
be investigated thoroughly so that we find out what the Will the Leader of the House therefore please update us
cause was. Our concern is for the British citizens, but on what the obstacles to the current reorganisation are,
also for all the lives that were lost. when they might be resolved and when we can expect an
announcement?
As always, I am so glad that once again the right hon.
Lady reminds us about Ms Zaghari-Ratcliffe, and of Secondly, given the events of the last seven days, we
course all the other dual nationals who are held improperly, can see that there is a very precarious military and
unlawfully by the Iranian regime. My right hon. Friend political situation in the middle east. Not only that, but
the Foreign Secretary spoke to the Iranian Government we can see how compromised this country is in trying to
on 6 January. The Government are doing everything influence those events. Should not the Government be
that we can to secure her release and that of others, but bringing forward an urgent debate on these matters so
the Government’s power, regrettably, is not unlimited in that this House can consider how better we can influence
this area. these events?
Thirdly, and finally, when are the Government going
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): to hold a debate recognising the consequences of the
The Leader of the House will be aware of the support in 12 December general election, which for the first time
all parts of the House and in the country—with has created a situation within this island where the two
campaigners such as Battersea Dogs and Cats pressing principal countries have a different political mandate?
hard—for the reintroduction of the Animal Welfare Are the Government going to bring forward proposals
(Sentencing) Bill, which was in the Queen’s Speech and in order to acknowledge Scottish public opinion and to
was of course lost because of the general election. Can accommodate Scottish political representation? If they
he pledge to introduce the Bill in the next two weeks, do not, and if they do not recognise that their mandate
and if not, can he tell us what the timetable is for it? ends at the Scottish border then—

Mr Rees-Mogg: I can reassure my right hon. and Mr Speaker: Order.

learned Friend that the animal welfare Bill is a priority
of this Government. It has not ceased to be a priority of Tommy Sheppard: Then—
this Government; there is a busy programme of legislation,
but this Bill will remain within it. Mr Speaker: Order. Sorry, but one of us is going to
have to give way. I am being very generous as it is the
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): There is hon. Gentleman’s first outing, but please come to a
always a degree of excitement in starting any new job, conclusion; you are meant to take two minutes, but you
and I feel I will have to have an ongoing challenge of are on three.
621 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 622

Tommy Sheppard: Apologies, Mr Speaker; this is my I think that bank holidays are one of the things that
first time, but I was a sentence away from my conclusion, come under the Lord President of the Council, so this is
which is simply to say that I caution the Government: if the first question I have ever been asked while wearing
they do not do this and do not recognise that different my Lord President of the Council hat. However, there is
mandate, they are going to become a recruiting sergeant a great cost to bank holidays and I think the chances of
for those on these Benches who wish Scotland to have having another one, although we all like to have a day
an independent, alternative future. off, is relatively slim, so I would not like to build up my
right hon. Friend’s hopes.
Mr Rees-Mogg: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman
on his first outing in holding this Government to account Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab):
and bringing on the fast bowling to start with. May I join the tributes that have been paid to my
The Brexit Bill started us off, so even before the predecessor Andrew Miller, who served the constituency
Queen’s Speech we passed a major piece of legislation, of Ellesmere Port and Neston with distinction for
but that does not keep the hon. Gentleman happy; what 23 years? He was greatly admired and respected by his
more can we do? constituents. As I found when I entered this place, he
was also greatly admired and respected across the House
As I have said, we hope to announce the reorganisation
for his work during his time in Parliament. He will be
of government today: the share-out of Select Committees
greatly missed. He was a friend to many of us here and
begins the process, the Chairmen will then be elected
a real mentor, and my thoughts are with his family at
and Committees will be established, and they will be
this time. His work in the field of science and technology
adjusted if there are any changes. This is all perfectly
is well known, but he was also a patron for the charity
normal. There will be regular statements and oral questions
RoadPeace. In that regard, will the Leader of the House
continue. That is all in place; it is there, and it is for the
update us on when the consultation that took place
hon. Gentleman to use it.
several years ago on increasing sentences for death by
On the hon. Gentleman’s first go, I do not want to be dangerous driving will actually result in legislation?
unkind and point out that, as I said in my statement, we
will be debating foreign affairs on Monday. That will be
an opportunity to discuss all matters relating to Iran, so Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman is right to raise
I am granting his wish almost immediately after standing that point. The Government take the matter extraordinarily
up. We also had a statement from my right hon. Friend seriously. There were plans in the previous Parliament
the Secretary of State for Defence earlier in the week. for dealing with it, and I would be very surprised if they
were not revisited soon.
On the consequences of the election, the hon. Gentleman
says that we may become a recruiting sergeant for the
SNP, which makes me wonder what he is complaining Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): The
about. If that is what he thinks we are doing, I would Leader of the House, like other hon. Members, will be
have thought he would be quite pleased. What I would aware of the daily work pressures on members of our
say is that he and other SNP Members must not forget ambulance services, not least in the east of England,
that there was a rather important election in 2014, and where there were three staff suicides over 11 days in
it was won by people who wanted to remain in the December. May we find time for a debate to highlight
United Kingdom. There is not the division that he talks the extent of the problem of pressure on ambulance
of. The United Kingdom is united, and that was what workers and perhaps to try to find some solutions?
the people of Scotland voted for in their wisdom and
good sense. Mr Rees-Mogg: May I begin by welcoming back my
hon. Friend? It is a huge pleasure to see a friend back in
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): People the House and I congratulate him on his victory.
opening their new year calendars, and now those who My hon. Friend raises a point of great seriousness. It
heard the Leader of the House announce the recess would be possible to consider it during the Queen’s
dates, will have noticed that the early May bank holiday Speech debate next Thursday, which covers matters of
has moved from Monday 4 May to Friday 8th so that health, but this is something the Government must be
we can, quite rightly, mark the 75th anniversary of aware of more broadly. Issues relating to suicide have
VE-day. However, events such as weddings, sporting such a devastating effect on families. They tie in with
fixtures and civic events will have been scheduled for the Government’s efforts on mental health and increased
Monday 4th and perhaps Sunday 3rd, and they will be spending on mental health to try to help people in, or
adversely affected by the change. What are the Government’s heading towards, that situation.
plans to make sure that there is full awareness of the
situation? Perhaps the Leader of the House will consider
whether it would be in the spirit of a new, forward-looking Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): We have just
global Britain that we might have another bank holiday heard that Liberty Steel is restructuring, which will
in May and reinstate the Monday, as well as having the inevitably lead to job losses in Rotherham and in the
Friday. constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport
East (Jessica Morden). While we will, of course, hold
Liberty Steel to account for the long-term future, we
Mr Speaker: Order. Can I just advise Members that also need the Leader of the House to find time in which
business questions will finish at 12.15 pm? If we can get we can hold the Government to account, because the
through questions quickly, that would be excellent. underlying structural issues, for which they are responsible,
have not been dealt with. Please will he find time for an
Mr Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Speaker. hour and a half debate on this very important topic?
623 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 624

Mr Rees-Mogg: Obviously there are time slots available Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): The Government’s
for Westminster Hall debates and Adjournment debates— ambition is to improve rail services all over the country,
they are in Mr Speaker’s hands—and I recommend that and there is a great need for improvement on the
the hon. Lady applies for one of those. I also remind her Cotswold line in West Oxfordshire, where we require
that Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy questions further redoubling. May we have a debate in Government
are on Tuesday 21 January. This is such an important time to ensure that we can make the case all over the
issue and it is well worth raising. If there is anything I country for where we need investment so that we can all
can do to help to facilitate a debate—not, I am afraid, get the services that our constituents deserve and require?
in Government time, but before the Backbench Business
Committee is set up—I will look very sympathetically Mr Rees-Mogg: Rail is a real issue for many Members
on it. of Parliament, given the effect on people of extremely
difficult journeys to work. The Government are spending
Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): I welcome £500 million on a Beeching reversal to restore some rail
the announcement of the recess dates, which is very lines. We are willing to act to ensure that the rail services
helpful for families and everybody else. Can we find provided are those that people can have a reasonable
time for a debate or a statement on why we are still expectation of receiving, so what my hon. Friend says is
allowing children aged 16 to get married in this country? very much in line with the action that the Government
plan to take.
Mr Rees-Mogg: I think that it is not easy for children
aged 16 to get married. As I understand it, they need the Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): Will the
permission of either their parents or a magistrate, and Leader of the House say when we might expect to see
the numbers are not enormous. However, it would be the return of the domestic abuse Bill, on which such
perfectly reasonable to ask for an Adjournment debate great progress was made during the last Parliament, so
on the subject. I do not see an obvious opportunity to that we can put that in our diaries?
raise the matter in the Queen’s Speech debate, but the
issue—the age of majority in this country—needs to be Mr Rees-Mogg: I cannot give the hon. Lady a date
considered, as many things flow from that. for her diary, but the Government are prioritising that
Bill. It is on the stocks and ready to be brought back
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The Leader of the soon—it will certainly be introduced before Easter.
House was kind enough to recognise that, as the former
Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, I wrote to Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Can we
him, but he will also have noted that a number of the have a debate on rail connectivity with the north of
main sponsors of the awaited debates are no longer England? My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes
with us. The debates with sponsors who are still Members (Martin Vickers) and I have been campaigning for years
of the House are on: the impact of diagnosis and for a through train from Grimsby via Market Rasen to
treatment of parental mental illness on outcomes for London. This is a catchment area of up to a quarter of
children; the collapse of Thomas Cook and the future a million people with no through train. The Government
of the travel industry; and the value of the arts and want to introduce projects to help the north of England
creative industries, which are very close to my heart, and they own London North Eastern Railway. Can we
given that the Sage Gateshead and BALTIC are in my get the train done?
constituency. I look forward to the re-establishment of
House business Committees, including the Backbench Mr Rees-Mogg: First, may I add to my answer to the
Business Committee. hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns)? My right
Will the Leader of the House also organise a Government hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has
statement on the failing—if not failed—Northern Rail just issued a written ministerial statement on Northern
franchise? The matter is of great importance to hundreds Rail, which I hope will be helpful to the House.
of thousands, if not millions, of our constituents across I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for
the north of England, who are being badly let down by Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) for his appeal for a
this failed franchise? through train and for his noting that the Government
are trying to improve infrastructure in the north of
Mr Rees-Mogg: In response to the first half of the England. His appeal will be heard, and I shall make
hon. Gentleman’s question, I was careful to say that sure it is passed on to the Secretary of State. What he is
while I was grateful for the list being sent, I was not calling for fits in with the thrust of what the Government
committing to it, because the Backbench Business are trying to do, but that is not a promise.
Committee of one Parliament ought not to bind a
future Parliament for exactly the reason that he mentions: Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The statement
some Members who wanted a debate are no longer on Northern Rail should be being made to the House
Members of the House. It would be wrong to have right now—it is that important to that many Members.
debates reflecting former Members’ interests, but when Lydiate Primary School in my constituency is in
Members are still here, that is a relevant factor if any desperate need of a new building. The governors are
time is available. doing all that they can to make do and mend, but it is
I thought that the Prime Minister gave a very clear simply not economically viable to continue. Despite
statement of the Government’s position on Northern what the Prime Minister said yesterday, education spending
Rail at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday: rail franchise in this country has fallen since 2010, not increased, so
companies will have to improve and deliver good services, may we have a statement on the importance of investment
otherwise the Government will take action. in new school buildings across the country, and can the
625 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 626

Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Mr Rees-Mogg: There is a great commonality of
Education to arrange a meeting with me about the feeling across the House about rail services. Rail companies
urgent need for a new building at Lydiate Primary need to deliver, and to ensure that people have the
School? service that they need and that trains run broadly on
time.
Mr Rees-Mogg: Education questions are a week on The franchising system is being changed and the
Monday, but an extra £14 billion is to be spent on railway will be improved with an investment of £48 billion,
schools over the next three years, which is an extra the largest since the Victorian era, which I know many
£150 million a week. Extra money for the physical Members think is relatively recent but which was actually
infrastructure of our schools will be available as part of well over 100 years ago. There is also a £4.2 billion local
that. Money is becoming available and expenditure is public transport fund to enable city regions to upgrade
increasing, which was a commitment prior to the general their buses, trains and trams so that they are as good as
election and reconfirmed at the general election. I would those in London. This will help every part of the
suggest in the first instance that the hon. Gentleman country, and it involves a very, very large amount of
raises the matter at Education questions and writes to a money, but I absolutely recognise the problems that are
Minister to ask for a meeting. If he has no success with currently affecting constituents across the country.
that, he can come back at business questions and I will
see if I can help.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): We
Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): Last summer, dozens know that the most vulnerable people rely on prepayment
of homes and businesses in my constituency were flooded, energy meters, but I do not know whether the Leader
but they could not meet the criteria for receiving Flood of the House is aware that on 1 January British Gas
Re insurance or any of the funding available for flood changed its top-up outlets from PayPoint to Payzone,
resilience measures, despite some of them having been which has 15,000 fewer outlets in the United Kingdom.
flooded for the second or third time. In addition, as a I have an elderly constituent who, instead of having to
further blow, Stockport Council, despite some initial walk around the corner to top up her meter, is now
relief, is now charging people council tax on not faced with a 2-mile walk. May we have a statement
only their temporary accommodation, but their main outlining what discussions the Government had with
accommodation, which is still uninhabitable. May we Ofgem and British Gas, and what impact assessments
have a debate in Government time on how we can offer were made?
more support, both nationally and locally, to flood
victims?
Mr Rees-Mogg: I was aware of that issue, and I know
that Members throughout the House are concerned
Mr Rees-Mogg: This is a really important issue. One
about the effect that it will have on their most vulnerable
would hope that local authorities would have the good
and least well-off constituents. I think that it is up to all
sense and wisdom to treat people whose homes have
of us to lobby British Gas to reconsider its decision. I
become uninhabitable through flooding with generosity,
will happily take up the matter with the Secretary of
rather than insisting on full payment of council tax.
State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and
There will be an opportunity in Tuesday’s Queen’s Speech
pass on the hon. Gentleman’s comments, because I
debate to discuss local government issues, and I hope
know that it has attracted cross-party concern and is a
my hon. Friend will raise this matter then.
matter of considerable seriousness. As the hon. Gentleman
rightly says, we need to look after the least well-off the
Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): Yesterday, the two most.
lorry drivers who sadly died in a road traffic collision
near Luton on Saturday morning were named as Surjit
Singh and Gheorge Mihai. This followed two other Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con): My constituency
accidents on Christmas eve along the same stretch of has one of the worst broadband networks in the country
smart motorway on the M1. May we please have a in terms of both coverage and speed—particularly the
debate on and a review of the roll-out of smart motorways likes of Audlem, Tattenham and Bunbury, which are in
across this country, especially in the light of these recent the bottom 10%. May we have a debate on broadband
and tragic deaths? infrastructure so that I can question a Minister on how
Eddisbury residents will secure their fair share of the
Mr Rees-Mogg: I know that the way in which smart £5 billion manifesto commitment to roll out full fibre
motorways have been operating is a matter of considerable across the country?
concern to the House. I understand that the Secretary
of State has ordered a review of them, which was meant
to be taking place relatively rapidly, and that he will Mr Rees-Mogg: I welcome back my hon. Friend, who
report back to the House. To consider and debate that made such a contribution to the former Government. It
in due course, after the report has happened, would be was a great pleasure for me to campaign for him when
only suitable. he stood in a by-election some years ago, and he was a
great hero for winning it.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): May Broadband roll-out will involve a major effort by the
we also have a statement from the Secretary of State for Government and the £5 billion investment that my hon.
Transport, as well as an urgent debate, on London Friend mentioned. I fear that I am slightly teaching my
Northwestern Railway, whose recent performance has grandmother to suck eggs, because he knows all this
been abysmal, as it is severely affecting the mental perfectly well, but questions to the Secretary of State
wellbeing of many of those who travel on it? for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will take place
627 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 628

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con):

Would the Leader of the House consider making time
next Thursday, and I think that they will present him available to highlight the plight of residents and small
with a good initial opportunity to put in his plea for businesses in Arundel and South Downs who were
Eddisbury. impacted by the recent floods just before Christmas
and, in particular, to discuss what steps the Secretary of
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) State for Housing, Communities and Local Government,
(Lab): Every hour someone in England has a partial my right hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Robert
foot amputation, and every two hours someone loses an Jenrick), will take to ensure that the risk of flooding is
entire leg. Please may we have a debate in Government reflected when future development is contemplated?
time on the growing crisis of vascular disease and
the urgent steps that the Government need to take to Mr Rees-Mogg: I welcome my hon. Friend to the
address it? House. It is a great pleasure to see him in his place after
all that he has done for the Conservative party in his
Mr Rees-Mogg: I must confess that I was unaware of distinguished career. The Government naturally sympathise
those figures, which are absolutely shocking. There will with those people who have been affected by the recent
be an opportunity for the hon. Lady to raise the issue flooding and the terrible impact that has on their lives.
during the Queen’s Speech debate on health matters, As we were hearing earlier, we have put in place a wide
and I hope that she will do so. range of recovery schemes for affected homes, businesses,
farmers and communities, and £2.6 billion is being
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is spent in over 1,000 flood schemes across the country,
the Leader of the House aware that 150,000 people which will protect a further 300,000 homes by 2021. I
worldwide, mainly children, died of measles last year, think that in this case prevention is better than cure.
and that many children in this country are not protected There will be relevant questions to the Local Government
by the MMR vaccine when they start school? May we Secretary on Monday.
have an urgent debate on the measles epidemic that is
spreading across Europe, and also New York state, and Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): May we have a
a discussion about whether it should be mandatory for debate about standards in public life and the consequences
children attending pre-school and early school to have when Members of either this place or the other place
that MMR protection? abuse staff or each other? Following the incident that I
raised on the Floor of the House this week, I have had a
Mr Rees-Mogg: The Government are doing what number of members of staff raise concerns with me
they can to increase the take-up of measles vaccines to about the way they are treated. Further to that, I am
ensure that as many children as possible are covered. sorry to say that the Member from the other place who
That is tremendously important, and parents have a I have complained about has now launched a homophobic
great responsibility to ensure that their children are attack on me in the press. This will be reported to the
vaccinated. Let me add, without going into too much police, and I know that I and others consider this to be a
detail, that I, as a parent, have certainly taken steps to hate crime.
ensure that I have fulfilled my responsibility. The
Government will be pushing for this, and there is next I know that the Leader of the House and the Speaker
week’s Queen’s Speech debate in which to raise it, but take this matter very seriously. I have a position of great
public health depends on people’s use of the vaccines privilege and I am able to raise this, but we must set the
that are available to them, and that should be encouraged. best possible standards from this place for other LGBT
people and, indeed, our staff, to ensure that we send a
message to say that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May we have a debate
here or anywhere else.
on championing apprenticeships and skills? Although
we have over 900,000 apprentices, the highest number in
our nation’s history, we need to look at how we can get Mr Rees-Mogg: I hope that I will not breach the
more young people doing apprenticeships and more normal order of this House if I say that the attack on
people doing degree apprenticeships. Will the Leader of the hon. Lady was utterly disgraceful and that she is
the House also look to work with the Speaker on clearly owed an apology by the noble Lord for what he
introducing an apprentice scheme in Parliament to help said about her. I think that everybody who heard about
parliamentarians to employ apprentices? that was shocked by the comments that he is reported to
have made and has not denied. I think they are really
Mr Rees-Mogg: As I understand it, apprentices have appalling. I know that we are not allowed to criticise
a chance at the age of 28 of earning significantly more Members of the other place except on a specific motion,
than graduates do. I think it is 25% more. It is a really but I think that under these circumstances we are allowed
remarkable success for apprenticeships. They ought to to stretch the rules.
be encouraged, and my right hon. Friend is absolutely As regards the initial complaint, everybody should
brilliant at doing this. He was one of the most successful treat our members of staff politely and with normal
Ministers in advancing the cause of apprenticeships. good manners. The staff have a duty to look after us
His idea about apprenticeships within the Palace of and protect us, and we must respond to them in kind.
Westminster is very well timed and, Mr Speaker, if you The purpose of this place is to facilitate legislation. We
think it is agreeable, perhaps that is something we could are here as legislators, and it is incumbent upon us to
discuss at the Commission on Monday. lead by example. That is why the behavioural code has
been set up as it has. Everyone should be respected and
Mr Speaker: Of course. valued. We should recognise that, by virtue of our office
629 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 630

and by virtue of the 70,000 people who have sent us raise the matter. It would also be sensible to ask Mr Speaker
here, we have a status that we must not abuse through ill for an Adjournment debate, which is often a good way
manners. Indeed, the greater one’s status—you are a of starting the discussion on such important matters.
model of this, Mr Speaker—the more important it is to
show good manners to those who are working on one’s Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The great services available
behalf. There is a helpline that people can call, and for at the Hospital of St Cross in Rugby are rightly cherished
any members of staff listening to this—I hope hon. by local residents, but Rugby is growing fast. We are
Members will pass this on to their staff—it is 0800 028 delivering houses at three times the national rate, and
2439. I hope that the security staff who were abused will many people are concerned that additional services will
ring the helpline so that the House of Lords authorities be needed to support that growing population. Can we
can look into the matter. have a debate on how the Government health infrastructure
While I am paying tribute to the staff, I want to add plan will support smaller hospitals in growing towns
one thing on a happier note. Two members of our such as Rugby?
security staff—this shows us how lucky we are—Ron
Dowson and Habibi Syaaf rescued a man who had Mr Rees-Mogg: On 29 September, the Government
fallen into the Thames earlier this week. That is a announced our new health infrastructure plan to ensure
reminder of how well we are served and, therefore, of that our health infrastructure works for decades to
our even greater duty of good manners. come. At the centre of the plan is a new hospital
building programme, and the Government announced
Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): The Government six new hospital schemes that are receiving funding to
have many important priorities, but nothing can be go ahead now and to be delivered by 2025 and a further
more pressing than the safety of our children. There is 21 schemes across 34 hospitals that will start the next
clear data that children as young as eight are regularly stage of developing their plans between 2025 and 2030.
viewing pornography online—often extreme pornography There is a clear NHS capital funding plan to ensure that
—with no legal consequences for website operators. the health infrastructure is there, and I commend my
When will the Government turn their extremely good hon. Friend for standing up for his hospital in Rugby.
“Online Harms” White Paper into a Bill to address the Local hospitals are cherished by residents up and down
issue that can be debated in this House? the country.

Mr Rees-Mogg: I thank my right hon. Friend for her Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): As I am
campaigning on this matter. Any parent with children the fifth Member to ask about rail, the Leader of the
getting to the age when they start going online worries House can be in no doubt about the strength of feeling
about what content may appear and how effective or on both sides about transport infrastructure. Can we
ineffective filters may be to protect their children or, have a Transport Minister before us so that we can
indeed, how clever one’s children may be at getting question them on details of the recent announcements
through the filters that one tries to put on. on the reopening of lines closed under Beeching? I am
The Government are committed to ensuring that particularly keen to raise the reopening of the line to
children are protected from accessing harmful content Fleetwood.
online. My right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of
State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport outlined in Mr Rees-Mogg: Congratulations, Dame Rosie, on
her written statement to Parliament on 16 October that your unanimous re-election yesterday as Deputy Speaker,
we want to achieve the most comprehensive and coherent having been elected by acclaim.
approach to protecting children online. We have decided The hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat
to deliver these protections through our wider online Smith) raises an important point, as have other hon.
harms regulatory proposals. The Secretary of State’s and right hon. Members. There is a £500 million pot to
statement outlined that the age verification provisions reopen lines that were closed under Beeching, and there
in the Digital Economy Act 2017 will not be commenced will potentially be an opportunity to discuss it on
and, as a result, the British Board of Film Classification Monday 20 January in the debate on the economy and
has been de-designated as the age verification regulator jobs. Rail is an important part of the economy, and that
for online pornography, but there will be a wider strategy debate will be the first occasion to raise it.
to protect children.
I reassure the House that I am not the deaf adder. I
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): Fire service men have heard very clearly the widespread concern about
and women take risks to save lives on a daily basis, yet rail, and it will have been heard by the Government and
there is increasing concern about their own wellbeing the responsible Ministers, too.
and the links to cancer that arise from exposure to
chemicals through their uniforms. Will the Leader of Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): May I add
the House agree to a debate in Government time to my congratulations on your welcome return to the
discuss the matter? Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker?
The Leader of the House will be aware that Monday
Mr Rees-Mogg: That is an important point and should is the statutory deadline for getting the Stormont Executive
be a matter of concern to us all. The people who risk back up and running. The talks are under way, and we
their lives for us ought to have equipment that protects all hope they are successful over the coming days. They
them, rather than increases the risk to them. Housing, will reach a conclusion, one way or the other, this
Communities and Local Government questions are on weekend, so can he confirm that the Secretary of State
Monday, which would be a good initial opportunity to for Northern Ireland will be making a statement to this
631 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 632

[Mr Mark Harper] that duty extraordinarily seriously. Hon. Members of

all parties may rest assured that, if they have constituents
House on Monday, either to announce that the Executive who needs assistance, the Foreign Office is there to help
is back in operation so that Northern Ireland is properly them.
governed or else to set out what steps the Government
will take to ensure that the very serious issues for the Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North)
operation of Northern Ireland’s public services can be (Lab): It is very nice to see you back in your place today,
properly dealt with? Madam Deputy Speaker.
The Leader of the House has been asked a number of
Mr Rees-Mogg: The Secretary of State for Northern questions about rail today. I am sure that he knows that
Ireland is working extremely hard, and worked hard TransPennine Express has had to offer a rebate of 3%
over the Christmas break, with all the parties in Northern on its fares because of its latest timetabling fiasco. That
Ireland to try to ensure that the Assembly is up and goes alongside its failure to run Hull station properly:
running on 13 January. Progress has been made, but it is we have a leaky roof and appalling toilets. May we have
not possible for me to say where that will conclude or a debate about whether we should introduce management
what statements there will be on Monday. It is important productivity clauses into the franchise so that, for example,
that this work proceeds and that the Assembly is TransPennine’s managing director, Leo Goodwin, could
reassembled. [Interruption.] I see nods from Northern refund perhaps more than 3% of the £331,000 salary he
Ireland Members, and I think there is a widespread receives after a recent 44% pay increase?
feeling that the lack of an Assembly has gone on for
much too long. Mr Rees-Mogg: On my own behalf and that of the
Government, I congratulate the hon. Lady on becoming
a Dame and on all she has contributed to Parliament,
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Congratulations, for which it is a due and proper reward. She comes up
Madam Deputy Speaker. with a novel solution—it may be rather a good one—that
As my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah people should have performance-related pay and that
Champion) mentioned, today Liberty Steel announced if the performance is bad, perhaps the pay should go
job losses in Newport, Rotherham and elsewhere. Our down. That is not something, as a capitalist, I am
thoughts are with those who are affected. The Orb averse to.
steelworks in Newport was mothballed before Christmas,
and there were worrying signs from Tata in the press Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
over the weekend. I reiterate the call for an urgent (Con): I am sure that there is cross-party consensus in
debate in Government time on steel so that we can the House that the most beautiful constituency in the
ensure the Government are proactive at this time. United Kingdom is West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine.
That beauty was enhanced last year by the flowering of
rare aspen trees on the Muir of Dinnet nature reserve.
Mr Rees-Mogg: This is obviously a very important Would my right hon. Friend consider a debate in
issue, and very important for the people whose jobs are Government time on the importance of nature reserves,
involved, for whom it must be a very troubling time. I as a way of thanking all those who volunteer and work
reiterate that there are Business, Energy and Industrial to protect our great flora and fauna across the United
Strategy questions on Tuesday 21 January, and an Kingdom?
application for an Adjournment debate may see something
discussed even sooner. Mr Rees-Mogg: If my hon. Friend wants to get a
debate out of me, he will have to say that Somerset is the
most beautiful county; he will not get it by saying that
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): The recent treatment
his own constituency is. However, he raises an important
of the 19-year-old British national in Ayia Napa and
point. The work that people do to ensure that the
the failures of the judicial process follow on from the
natural beauty of our country is enhanced is important.
failure of the judicial system in Cyprus to bring to
I am not sure that I can promise him a debate, but his
justice the killers of my constituent George Low, who
point is extremely well made and I thank him for all his
was murdered in the same town in 2016. Can we please
work to ensure that our country remains the most
have a debate on the safety of British subjects visiting
beautiful in the world—something I think we can all
Cyprus on holiday and whether any further precautions
agree on.
or advice are needed?
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): The UK
Mr Rees-Mogg: Both cases are matters of considerable Government already had a woeful record on shamefully
concern, and they have been of concern to the Government. backsliding on commitments to child refugees, but to
I note that the lady returning from Cyprus is being vote to prevent unaccompanied child refugees from
helped by the police and viewed as a victim of a sexual being reunited with their families is a new low. Will the
assault. That tells us something important about how Leader of the House make an urgent statement on
the British authorities view the case. We have to bear it exactly what assessment the Government made of the
in mind that standards of justice across the world are impact of their shameful decision on those most vulnerable
not necessarily as high as they are in the United Kingdom. children?
It is one of the primary duties of any Government to
ensure the wellbeing of their citizens when they are Mr Rees-Mogg: I am afraid that the hon. Lady is
abroad, or that justice can be done if anything goes under a misapprehension. There is no change to
wrong when they are abroad. The Government take Government policy. The decision to take the provision
633 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 634

out of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) the subject initially as it may not constitute a full debate
Bill was made because it is not right to put negotiating on its own, but it will also be possible to raise the matter
mandates in an Act of Parliament in that way. The at various points in the debate on the Queen’s Speech.
Government remain committed to supporting and aiding
child refugees. Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I add my
congratulations on your re-election, Madam Deputy
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): The Speaker.
Leader of the House will know that our manifesto says The Government have announced that there are to be
that we will review the Gambling Act 2005, and he will further town deals. My constituency already benefits
have heard, from standing at the Bar of the House from the Greater Grimsby town deal. May we have in
during the urgent question earlier, that it is an analogue Government time a debate in which the Government set
Act in a digital age. Given that the work will require a out more details of their proposals and I am able to
laborious Whitehall process, we in Parliament can help outline the benefits that have come to Cleethorpes?
it along. With that in mind, will the Leader of the
House give the House the opportunity to start the Mr Rees-Mogg: I am glad to say that Midsomer
discussion by granting a debate in Government time on Norton and Keynsham in North East Somerset are also
what we would like to see in the review of the legislation? benefiting from a deal. Previous town deals are benefiting
many of us, up and down the country. I can answer my
Mr Rees-Mogg: I thank my hon. Friend for her hon. Friend’s wish because I can give slightly more
brilliant work in bringing problem gambling to the detail, which may save the House the time that would be
attention of the House and the country at large. Without taken by a full debate.
her work, the problem would have been less noticed and
On 27 July, the Prime Minister announced that a
more swept under the carpet. As the urgent question
£3.6 billion towns fund would support an initial 100 town
showed, it worries hon. Members across the Chamber,
deals. The Government have announced 100 places that
and many of us have seen in our constituencies the
will be invited to develop proposals for deals, including
problems that arise from addictive gambling. The
some that have been the birthplaces of industry, centres
Government did indeed say in our manifesto that we
of commerce for centuries, or bastions of the maritime
will have a review, and that will be delivered.
economy along our coastline. The Government will
I do not think I can promise a debate because there work with local people from the 100 communities to
was such a full discussion of the subject shortly before I agree proposals to spend up to £25 million in each
got to my feet that I think it has in some sense been place. The Government are committed to decentralising
covered, but the knowledge that the House and the funding and decisions away from Whitehall. We have
Government are concerned, and the strength of the invested in the growth of local economies, developing
position taken by my hon. Friend the Minister for Sport powers through green, ambitious city growth deals,
in his answers, will, I think, be noticed by the gambling devolving more than £9 billion of funding to local
world. I hope the industry will put its own house in enterprise partnerships, and introducing eight metro
order; otherwise, it might find that its house is put in Mayors in England. This is all part of a general programme,
order for it. and I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for
Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) is pleased with the success
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Last of the Greater Grimsby deal.
month, the Prime Minister said,
″We should bring electrification of Midland Mainline back Chris Bryant: For a start, the name of my constituency
and do the whole line through to Sheffield”, is pronounced Rhon-tha, not Rhon-da. I hope the
but given that the two previous Tory Prime Ministers Leader of the House will practise in front of a mirror
made precisely the same promise, only to backtrack just later today.
a few weeks after the election, may we have an urgent I am not an unreasonable man, so I am not asking
debate so that those very busy Transport Ministers can when the next Prorogation of Parliament will be, but I
be challenged on precisely when and how they will am asking how long the Government intend to run the
deliver that vital investment? Session in the broadest sense. It would be perfectly
legitimate to run it to next November and return to the
Mr Rees-Mogg: I have a certain sympathy because old system of having State Opening in that month. May
the great western line was also meant to be electrified, is a daft time to have a State Opening, because the
but then it was found to be too difficult to do around Government are caught in purdah thanks to local elections,
Bath, which is the station I use— making it much more difficult to do it properly. Will
the Leader of the House give us a clearer idea of the
Chris Bryant: Because you use it. Government’s broad intention, not least because we
would like to make sure that we get 20 Opposition days
Mr Rees-Mogg: I am always getting heckled from a year, and not just 20 a Session?
Rhondda! Everyone else is so well behaved in this new
Parliament. We have this new image and row upon row Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Member for—
of people who sit there politely listening, other than the
hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Chris Bryant: Rhon-tha.
The hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian
Greenwood) raises an important point. There will be Mr Rees-Mogg: Patience! The hon. Member for Na
oral questions to Department for Transport Ministers h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil), when
in due course, and I think that is the right time to raise I was newly elected, very generously took me to the
635 Business of the House 9 JANUARY 2020 636

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Australian Bushfires

Smoking Room and gave me a couple of glasses of
Scotland’s finest produce to help me to learn how to 12.15 pm
pronounce his constituency, whereas the hon. Member The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign
for Rhondda merely bellows at me across the Chamber. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mrs Heather Wheeler): Madam
For that reason, I may try harder with Na h-Eileanan Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to see you returned as
an Iar than I do with Rhondda. first Deputy Chair of Ways and Means. With your
Regarding the length of the Session, if the hon. permission, I will update the House on the bushfires in
Gentleman were to divide the number of Bills listed Australia.
following the Queen’s Speech by the average number of In the past four months, bushfires in Australia have
Bills passed during the course of a year, he might get a killed at least 25 people and displaced thousands more,
rough idea of how long the Session is likely to last, with over 1,900 homes destroyed. Millions more people
other things being equal, but that is not a promise. have been affected by poor air quality as a result of fire
smoke, with 10 million acres of land burnt. Meteorologists
predict that the fires will get worse before they get
better, as peak summer temperatures are yet to come.
This crisis has been devastating and our hearts go out to
the Australian people.
The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the
Minister for the Commonwealth, the UN and South
Asia, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, have been in contact
with their Australian counterparts to offer our condolences
and stress our readiness to help in whatever way they
need. Furthermore, our high commission and consulates
general are in close contact with Australian authorities
at federal and state level, exploring how the UK can
support them and what assistance they would find most
useful.
The Australian Government have agreed an offer by
the Foreign Secretary to deploy an expert support and
assessment team of specialists from defence, health and
fire. We have deployed this team to meet Australian
officials, and they will be on site in the coming days. The
team will include a senior member of the UK fire and
rescue service, a medical specialist in trauma and mental
health, and a military liaison officer. The team will
work with Australian colleagues to establish the types,
extent and duration of support that will be of most use
to Australian emergency responders, and ensure that
such contributions are fully integrated with Australian
efforts. The specialists will liaise with regional co-ordinators
as well as with the central Australian Government. The
important point is that the help we are giving is the help
we have been asked for.
Such is the nature of our close relationship that
co-operation between the UK and Australia is taking
place all the time. Across the globe, UK forces are
deployed alongside Australian counterparts. The recent
radio interview with Lieutenant Grimmer, a Royal Navy
pilot on exchange to the Royal Australian Navy who
has been working on evacuation operations, demonstrates
how we are already helping through our established
relationships. The close ties between the UK and Australia
are of course mirrored across families and friends in
both countries, which makes this a very personal tragedy.
As ever, our greatest and most immediate concern is
the security of British citizens. We are grateful to the
Australian authorities for the timely and professional
advice they are providing to help keep British visitors to
Australia safe. We also pay tribute to the heroism and
professionalism of Australia’s emergency services, many
of whom are volunteers, and some of whom have lost
their lives as they tackle an unprecedented level of
bushfire destruction. I am sure that the whole House
will join me in extending our sympathies to the people
637 Australian Bushfires 9 JANUARY 2020 Australian Bushfires 638

of Australia, given what they are going through. The insist that the world is flat. Yet, sadly, such individuals
stories of valour that are coming out of Australia, include the current President of the United States,
which we have seen in the media and on an individual Donald Trump; the current President of Brazil, Jair
level, have been deeply moving. Bolsonaro; and— I say this with great regret, given
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth what his country is currently experiencing—the current
North (Penny Mordaunt) has pointed out on social Prime Minister of Australia, Scott Morrison. There is
media, fighting sustained crises is exhausting and we something bitterly sad about the fact that those three
should support one of closest allies at this time. She has leaders have all seen raging wildfires in their countries
also rightly drawn attention to the impact on Australia’s over the past year—in California, in the Amazon and
unique wildlife, including koalas. The Government recognise now on the eastern coast of Australia.
that the environmental and agricultural impact of the So the question we all face is how we address the
bushfires is staggering. Almost half a billion animals challenge of climate change, how we keep the Paris
are thought to have perished, and there are concerns agreement on track and how we stop our world reaching
that some species found only in certain areas of Australia the point of no return on global warming, where events
may have been wiped out altogether. We stand ready to such as those we are currently seeing in Australia become
support Australian authorities to address the ecological the new normal. Facing a challenge of that scale, we
damage in due course, and this is something that our have to recognise one thing—that what we do alone in
support and assessment team will cover. the UK will make not a jot of difference to the global
Australia is one of our most valued allies, partners problems we all face.
and friends. As the Foreign Secretary has said, we stand What we need instead is what my right hon. Friend
shoulder to shoulder in solidarity with the people of the shadow Foreign Secretary called for a year ago:
Australia and are ready to help in whatever way they “the globalisation of the green new deal”.
need. The UK deployment this week reflects our measured
approach, which will ensure that any assistance is The proposition is that we help every country in the
appropriate and meets Australia’s specific needs, but the world, and indeed use our weight at the UN to oblige
UK support is ongoing and long-term, reflecting the every country to use the natural resources at their
deep ties between our countries. The Australian authorities, disposal, whether it be wind power, tidal power or solar
from the Foreign Minister to Emergency Management power, to move rapidly towards a zero-carbon economy,
Australia, have expressed how welcome our enduring in the process creating millions of new jobs. Britain led
assistance remains. I commend this statement to the the industrial revolution in the 18th and 19th centuries.
House. We are in a very good position to lead this green
revolution, and I urge the Government to take that
12.20 pm lead.

Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): Like all Mrs Wheeler: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much
colleagues, let me welcome you to your place, Madam indeed for that. We are grateful to him for laying out his
Deputy Speaker, following your unopposed election as thoughts. I do not think he actually asked me a specific
Deputy Speaker. I also thank the Minister for advance question, and I am grateful to him for that as well.
sight of her statement. I am grateful for her assurance
that support is being given to any British nationals and
tourists who have been affected, and that support has Fabian Hamilton: Climate change.
also been offered to the Australian authorities. However,
like her, my thoughts are with our Australian cousins Mrs Wheeler: Of course, the hon. Member asked
who have lost their homes, jobs, communities and, in about climate change. On that, the most important
some tragic cases, their lives as a result of the fires. Like thing is that we are going to be chairing COP26, so we
her, I applaud the astonishing efforts of the Australian have ambitious climate change targets for all countries
firefighters and other emergency services who have been going forward. When I go on trips to other countries, I
trying to tackle this crisis, and I applaud too all those am looking forward to asking all of them how ambitious
ordinary Australians who have so movingly and selflessly they are going to be. On money, specifically, we are
risked their own lives to save koala bears and other increasing our international climate finance offer from
creatures whose populations have suffered such devastation £8.5 billion between 2016 and 2020 to £11.6 billion over
as their natural habitat has been devoured by the flames. the period 2021 to 2025, in order to help developing
I understand that to date up to 1 billion animals may countries take action.
have perished.
What we have seen in recent weeks has been nothing Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): It is
short of a catastrophe, for not just Australia but the a great pleasure to see you in your place, Madam
whole world, and I wholeheartedly share the Minister’s Deputy Speaker. I welcome the Minister’s statement
words of sympathy and solidarity with our close friends and I am very grateful that the Prime Minister has
for what they are going through at the moment. But made the offer to his opposite number Scott Morrison.
when the fires are finally extinguished, it would be I also welcome the partnership the Minister has spoken
remiss of us if we did not discuss the underlying causes of, but is there more we could do? I ask that because the
of these unprecedented events; 2019 was the second Foreign Office has such excellent links with the Australian
hottest year on record, and the past five years fill the Administration—indeed, we were one and the same
top five positions as the hottest years on record. Any until about the 1960s. We have several members of the
group of individuals who can look at those figures and Commonwealth of Australia sitting on these Benches,
continue to deny that global warming and climate change and it is a pleasure to have them here. Can we look at
are real issues are equivalent to those people who still co-operating with regional partners, bringing together
639 Australian Bushfires 9 JANUARY 2020 Australian Bushfires 640

[Tom Tugendhat] Mrs Wheeler: I thank the hon. Lady: our hearts go
out to her friends and family in Australia. Sometimes in
an alliance of others not just to engage in Australia but the Chamber, speeches and questions are quite difficult
to deal with the forest fires we are seeing around the to make and ask, but it is great that she is here to give
world? that extra oomph.
We have the chair of COP26 with Italy, so we are
Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. absolutely taking climate change as the No. 1 priority.
He is perhaps soon again to be the Chairman of the In every embassy around the world, every ambassador
Select Committee on Foreign Affairs. [Interruption.] I and every high commissioner has it as their No.1 priority
said “perhaps”. One thing that was really helpful when to talk to other Governments and encourage greater
Lord Ahmad was out in Australia was the fact that we and more ambitious targets for those countries. In
hold the Chair-in-Office of the Commonwealth at the particular, we will continue with the Paris agreement
moment. One thing we are doing as part of the and make sure that those commitments are guaranteed
Commonwealth is getting member states to work together going forward. President Claire O’Neill, late of this
on this matter, through initiatives such as the Blue parish as the Member for Devizes, recently met other
Charter and the Queen’s Commonwealth Canopy. So energy Ministers at COP25 in Madrid to bang the drum
we are there as a group promoting environmental protection and make clear that this is our No.1 priority.
across the world. In respect of any changes to financial matters, I am
afraid the hon. Lady will have to wait for the Chancellor’s
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): It Budget, but that is not very far away in March.
is a pleasure to see you in your place, Madam Deputy On the roll-out of electric charging points, I am
Speaker. It has been very hard watching Australia burn proud to have two charging points in Swadlincote in
in the past few weeks. I am fortunate, in that most of my South Derbyshire, and £4 million has been put to one
friends and family are concentrated in the west and so side for councils to bid for so that they can have
are suffering less, but my thoughts, my love and my charging points.
heart go out to all of those who are in harm’s way
across the continent. It is difficult for most people here John Howell (Henley) (Con): Would the Minister like
to appreciate the size of the fires and to appreciate the to say how many Britons have been killed or otherwise
size of Australia to begin with. These fires have covered caught up in this emergency?
an area twice the size of Wales. The fire front in one
state, New South Wales, is thousands of miles long. Mrs Wheeler: I am really pleased to say that no UK
There is always a bushfire season, but not like this. As nationals have been killed and we are not aware of any
has been pointed out by others today, Australia is not who have been injured. In fact, only one British national
alone; 4 million hectares of Siberian forest burned a few has been in touch to ask for advice and support. We ask
months ago, and there were fires in Greenland, Alaska everybody—visitors and people living there—to pay
and Canada too. Again, fires in the Arctic are normal, close attention to the updated advice from local authorities.
but not on this scale, and now the ground itself is
starting to burn. In both hemispheres, climate change is Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD):
driving this. Philip Higuera from the University of When the fires are extinguished, there is going to have
Montana describes it is a switch: reach the tipping point to be a moment for learning lessons and drawing the
and Arctic tundra burns. So although kind words and links between these incidents and climate change. Our
support for those battling the fires are very moving and Government should take a leading role, but we would
of course greatly appreciated, they are just one thing— be better able to do so if we had not ourselves just
action to address this climate emergency is another. announced that a review of the net zero carbon target
had been put off until autumn. Will the Minister speak
There will not be any slowdown in burn rates unless to her colleagues in the Treasury about bringing that
we reverse the causes, so I must ask: when will we see review forward?
real action from this Government on the climate emergency?
The Environment Bill that flickered briefly in the last Mrs Wheeler: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for
Parliament missed and hit the wall. Will we see something his question, and I will of course do that.
of substance in this Parliament? The science is 250 years
old, the term “greenhouse effect” was coined nearly a Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North)
century ago, even Thatcher called for climate action (Con): It is a pleasure to see you back in your place,
and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Madam Deputy Speaker.
warns us of the dangers repeatedly, yet the UK stands What has been obvious from constituents in Romsey
virtually still on this issue. That must change. There and Southampton North is the outpouring of affection
must be no more woolly words and no more waffle—it and support that they are expressing for our friends and
is time for real climate action. When will we see a ban allies in Australia. I am delighted to hear my hon.
on fracking, incentives for renewable energy production Friend’s comments about the practical support that the
and a roll-out of electric vehicle charging stations? Government are giving, but my constituents’ question is
Where is the support for electric aviation and VAT about what they can do as individuals. I would be
exemptions for home insulation—not a reduced rate delighted to hear what advice my hon. Friend can give
but exemptions? Why are we not seeing urgent action? them.
In short, if the Government want to do something
about the fires in Australia, in the Arctic and on England’s Mrs Wheeler: I thank my right hon. Friend—who
moors in years to come, they must do something now is a very good friend—for that question. Interestingly,
about the climate emergency. sometimes in times of adversity really nasty people
641 Australian Bushfires 9 JANUARY 2020 Australian Bushfires 642

come out of the woodwork. I do not want any help that the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre
the British people give via charities in Australia or Brock) and I are members, along with the chairs, the
whatever other method to be affected by scammers, so if hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) and the
British citizens want to give or help in any way, will they right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar), has come
please double-check that any charity they give money to together to encourage all Parliaments around the world
is registered with the Australian Charity Commission? —the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association is clearly
It would be a tragedy if the good will of people in this a key friend—to take some responsibility for keeping
country was abused. this on the agenda, because in the end Executive
Governments change, but we remain. I hope we can
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure keep that in our thoughts. May I also thank the Speaker’s
to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. Office for contacting the Australian Parliament? I know
from parliamentarians there just how much that meant
I was really quite shocked that in her statement the
to them.
Minister did not mention climate change once; it is
surely the context in which all this is happening. When
my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North East Mrs Wheeler: It is great to hear of how much work is
(Fabian Hamilton) did raise the issue very eloquently, going on behind the scenes in Parliament, but I stress
the Minister had to rummage in her folder to find again that is a No.1 Government priority and all our
something to say. The fact is that Australia is the largest embassies are on it. It is a great honour to host COP26
emitter per capita of any major nation, yet its Government with our Italian friends, and it will be the success that it
are still not committed to decarbonisation. The COP25 needs to be.
talks were a complete failure, and we have not even had
a written ministerial statement on them. When are the James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): I welcome
Government going to step up to the plate, show leadership, you back to your place, Madam Deputy Speaker.
talk to Australia and say that it has to get with the We should remember that on new year’s day National
agenda? Grid announced that this country just had the first ever
year in which the energy from zero-carbon sources
Mrs Wheeler: Please forgive me for suggesting that exceeded fossil fuels—it is the first time in our history—so
talk is cheap. Australia is a signatory to the Paris we are doing our bit. Does my hon. Friend agree that
agreement and is committed to a 26% to 28% reduction we should not be lecturing Australia when it is in the
in greenhouse gas emissions on 2005 levels by 2030. In middle of a national emergency if it is not yet doing
addition—because there are intelligent people in this the same? As she rightly says, we should be giving it all
room—a number of Australian states have already the support we can. Will she confirm that if the fires
committed to net zero by 2050. Ahead of COP26, we worsen, we stand ready to provide whatever help is
will look forward to working with all Paris agreement needed, should the Australians request it?
signatories to increase global climate ambition in line
with that agreement. Mrs Wheeler: Those are wise words from my hon.
Friend. The UK policy on climate change has been
dramatic: we are setting out legally binding targets to
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I
eliminate climate change by 2050; we have been the
welcome you back to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.
fastest in the G20 to decarbonise since 2000; and since
Does the Minister agree that this is the time not to be 1990 we have reduced our emissions by more than 40%
criticising Australia but to be helping them? Does she while growing our economy by two thirds. We can get
agree that we need to see close allies such as ourselves, the message out to other countries that it can be done
the Americans, the Canadians and the New Zealanders and it does not affect the economy. Exactly as my hon.
coming together to give Australia the package of help Friend said, National Grid’s use of energy from renewable
that it desperately needs? Does she also agree that sources is leading the way as a great example to others.
individual citizens who want to help can look at the
appeals by the Salvation Army in Australia and by the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It is a
Australian rural fire service, and make donations to pleasure to see you in your place, Madam Deputy
them rather than the sort of dubious organisations that Speaker.
may emerge?
The suffering in Australia is almost unimaginable.
Scott Morrison has finally committed around AU$2 billion
Mrs Wheeler: I could not agree more with my right for bushfire recovery, but that is dwarfed by the
hon. and learned Friend. My constituent Helen Jackson AU$29 billion that the Australian Government spend
is raising funds for koala care, and I have made it clear on fossil fuel subsidies every year. Public money is in
to her that she must send the money she raises to the essence being spent to turbocharge the climate emergency.
appropriate people, exactly as my right hon. and learned We do it here in the UK, too: we spent around £10 billion
Friend has outlined. on fossil fuel subsidies last year. Will the Minister agree
that it is time to stop throwing money on the fire? Will
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): I she commit to ending public financial support for the
congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and direct fossil fuel industry?
my remarks to you in the Chair, because with these
difficult long-term issues there is a real role for Parliaments. Mrs Wheeler: I am afraid that the hon. Lady is asking
Greta Thunberg came to our Parliament and it is this the wrong person that question.
gathering that has taken up the mission and is leading
it on; it is not just about the Executive Government. Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): It is good to see you
The all-party group on Australia, of which my friend back in your place, Madam Deputy Speaker.
643 Australian Bushfires 9 JANUARY 2020 Australian Bushfires 644

[Bob Seely] Mrs Wheeler: The hon. Gentleman asks a good question.
We know that of the animals affected a number are
The upcoming foreign policy review is important. cows that produce milk. That will obviously affect
Can the Minister confirm that climate change will feature Australia’s economy and is an absolute tragedy for the
in that review? If it is not going to, may I suggest that local farmers. We do have expertise in this area; whatever
the Foreign and Commonwealth Office consider it as help Australia asks for in which we have expertise, we
part of its global review? will help if we can.

Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend—a candidate Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): It is
to be Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee—for that great to see you back as part of the Speaker’s team,
interesting question. As I have tried to stress and am Madam Deputy Speaker.
more than happy to say again, climate change is the Would the Minister and her Department work with
No. 1 priority for all our embassies across the world, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association? Prime
and is part of our plans now and going forward. Ministers come and go—as we know in this country—but,
as the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green
Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): I welcome (Catherine West) said, parliamentarians tend not to.
you back to your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. Could we urge the CPA to work closely with Australian
Members of Parliament to make them much more
The huge scale of the fires must leave us in absolutely aware of the problems of climate change in their country,
no doubt of the urgent and radical action that is needed as well as in the world?
on climate change, so I was also absolutely shocked that
I did not hear the Minister even mention the words
“climate change” in her statement. Yet, behind the Mrs Wheeler: My hon. Friend—my Derbyshire friend—
scenes, UK Export Finance schemes are handing out makes an interesting suggestion. We have great ties with
billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money to develop fossil the CPA. Lord Tariq Ahmad in the other place looks
fuel projects, locking countries into high-carbon energy after the Commonwealth side of things, and I am sure
for decades to come. Will this Government put their he will gladly take her suggestion forward.
money where their mouth is and end UK Export Finance’s
support for fossil fuels? Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): You will be aware,
Madam Deputy Speaker, how thrilled I am to see you
Mrs Wheeler: The hon. Lady asks a very intelligent back in the Chair—your rightful place in this House.
question. The answer is that I cannot give her that I am grateful to the Minister for her statement. I
assurance right now. We have green finance deals and speak as someone whose mother grew up in Western
ocean deals. We are so committed to helping countries Australia. I have family living in Victoria and in New
around the world to move on to renewable energy South Wales, so I feel the pain of that country maybe as
projects, and I think that is the way forward. much as other Members of this House. The reality is
that when friends speak, they also speak with some
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Congratulations honesty. Prime Minister Morrison has ignored the climate
on your return to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. issue for a number of years, as other Members have
pointed out. The Commonwealth Heads of Government
I strongly welcome the UK Government’s enduring meeting is coming up later this year. I accept that it is
commitment to support Australia, but will my hon. not part of the Minister’s responsibility, but may I ask
Friend tell us for specifically how long the experts who her to make representations to the relevant Minister, the
are currently there plan to remain in the country? Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister to prioritise climate
change as part of that meeting? We must learn lessons.
Mrs Wheeler: It is my pleasure to try to answer my The situation in Australia should be a warning that the
hon. Friend. They are there for a five-day period, meeting world is burning, and the Commonwealth must play a
all the experts in the region with three sessions covering much more significant role in tackling the impact and
the three different areas that they are visiting. They will realities of climate change.
then do a rapid assessment of the assistance that Australia
is asking for, and we are ready to assist in any way we Mrs Wheeler: I thank the hon. Gentleman—I hope I
can. may also call him my friend—for his question. Interestingly,
because the UK is Chair-in-Office at the Commonwealth,
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Congratulations the Commonwealth has actually been a long-standing
on being re-elected, Madam Deputy Speaker; we are champion for environmental protection and climate
very pleased to see you in the Chair. action since its first official mention in the Commonwealth
Langkawi declaration on the environment in 1989. We
I thank the Minister for her statement on the Australian will take this matter seriously and it will be on the
wildfires. If the area of land that has been burning was agenda for CHOGM.
imprinted on the United Kingdom mainland map it
would reach from Newcastle straight across and halfway
down, as far as London—a vast area. Soil will need to Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I welcome you
be resown, trees replanted, animals replaced and farms to your place, Madam Deputy Speaker.
restocked. What help can the United Kingdom Government May I offer my deepest sympathy at all those in
give Australia, given that the United Kingdom of Australia affected by this terrible fire? I spent a year and
Great Britain and Northern Ireland has great expertise a half out there as a much younger man and experienced
in abundance? the intense heat myself, working out in the bush. Can
645 Australian Bushfires 9 JANUARY 2020 Australian Bushfires 646

the Minister help us understand how these fires started? I echo comments from colleagues across the House and
Arson plays a role. Does she have any evidence or send our prayers to those fighting, suffering and surviving
feedback from the Australian Government on how the the heartbreaking events on the continent of Australia.
fires physically started? Does the Minister agree that in the year that the UK
hosts COP26, we need to re-embolden our climate
Mrs Wheeler: Very regrettably, it is widely reported diplomacy? One practical suggestion might be about
on social media that 75% of the fires were started by coupling industrial strategy with climate diplomacy on
arsonists. decarbonising power generation, because in Australia
75% of power generation is still dependent on coal.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): It is a Indeed, when I was in Australia for my honeymoon,
real pleasure to see you back in your rightful place, Prime Minister Scott Morrison was waving coal around
Madam Deputy Speaker. in its House of Commons. Can we share our expertise
I spent one of the happiest years of my life living in and lessons learned in the UK?
Melbourne, and would be the last person to criticise
Australia. However, my friends who live in Australia are Mrs Wheeler: I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s wife’s
very concerned about the current Government’s lack of family are safe. I am sure he is in constant contact.
appreciation of the impact of climate change on the The hon. Gentleman makes a really interesting
disaster they are now facing. What can the Minister and suggestion. Interestingly, DFID official development
the Government do to persuade their sister party in assistance money is being used particularly in Brazil to
Australia to take the science of climate change seriously? look at decarbonising its energy production. We cannot
use ODA money for Australia because obviously it is a
Mrs Wheeler: My sympathies are with the hon. and first-world nation, but perhaps we can find another way
learned Lady’s friends who are out there right now. It is through the prosperity fund or something like that. We
without doubt clear that the UK and Australia have will take that idea away. We are always happy to receive
their own approaches to climate change. As chair of good ideas.
COP26, the UK looks forward to continued discussions
in the run-up to that conference. We hope to work with Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Congratulations, Madam
Australia and others to increase their ambition in line Deputy Speaker, on your re-election to the Chair.
with the Paris principles. I stress again that, because of I was in Victoria last week, and I was very moved by
Australia’s federal system, there is a really interesting the remarkable resilience of our friends and family, the
dynamic there right now, whereby states are already Australian people, in dealing with the bushfire crisis,
saying that they will be decarbonise by 2050—the same which is awful, as we know, with many lives and homes
as us—so all is not necessarily painted as black as we lost, but also up to 500 million animals—farm animals
think. and indigenous creatures as well. What particular assistance
can the United Kingdom give in terms of ecological,
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Congratulations and perhaps veterinary, support to help with the natural
on your re-election, Madam Deputy Speaker. disaster that has happened?
Australia is a vast country that is suffering a terrible
tragedy, and I have two nephews who live in different Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend for his up-to-date
parts of that country. Large numbers of UK citizens information, he having visited so recently. I have asked
will go on tours of Australia over the coming weeks and the same question myself, particularly about veterinary
months that might be disrupted because they might be support but also agricultural support afterwards. Part
going to areas of danger. Will the Minister update the of the brief for our specialists on the team that has been
House on what advice the FCO is giving to travel deployed is to ask what Australia would like us to do.
companies and individuals?
Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): May I, too, congratulate
Mrs Wheeler: I hope that my hon. Friend’s nephews you on your re-election, Madam Deputy Speaker?
in different parts of Australia stay safe. I am glad he As others have said, these devastating bush fires have
asks his question. UK nationals should follow the FCO been exacerbated in both extent and intensity by the
travel advice. It was updated on 30 December and we consequences of global warming. The Minister has
will continue to keep it under review. We have not already intimated this, but could she confirm that in the
advised against going to Australia for tourism, to visit light of this catastrophe, UK foreign policy will make
family or for business, but we do request that visitors international co-operation on efforts on decarbonisation
pay close attention to the updated advice from local its highest priority?
authorities. One of the great things that has happened
through our connections with all the different groups, Mrs Wheeler: That is absolutely key. As has been
as well as the embassy and the consulate general, is that alluded to, COP25 was perhaps not as successful as it
really good local advice is being offered. We ask people might have been—[Interruption.] Well, we have to be
to keep abreast of that advice as well as with the FCO’s kind. We therefore have every incentive to make COP26
advice. a success. Part of that will be using the expertise that we
have in emerging countries to help them to make the
Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): Welcome step change to renewable energies and decarbonising. It
back to your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. I declare is a really exciting time for this country to take those
my interest as set out in the register, not least my measures to help other countries. Exactly as the hon.
personal connection by marriage to Australia, with Gentleman says, this is the No. 1 priority for all our
many friends and family members across that continent. embassies around the world.
647 Australian Bushfires 9 JANUARY 2020 Australian Bushfires 648

Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con): I welcome one of the deployment team is from military liaison. I
the news that the Minister has given. Having also lived am not sure whether we have equipment anywhere
in Melbourne in Australia and having friends who are nearby at the moment, but if, not so much even acting
still living out there, this has been a great concern to me with Chinooks right now, we can find a way to back-fill
and also to residents in Meon Valley. What medical other areas of the Australian armed forces, that might
assistance are we providing to the Australians, both be the way forward. Again, when Australia asks we will
now and in future, with smoke inhalation and other fulfil its requests.
issues that might have been caused by the smoke?
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North)
Mrs Wheeler: I know that a number of my hon. (Lab): I thank the Minister for her statement and commend
Friend’s constituents have written to her, and they will the support that we are offering to our allies. I agree
have a reply from me specifically. As regards medical with the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire (Mrs Latham)
expertise, some of our rapid deployment team were and my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and
medical experts. We were perhaps initially concentrating Wood Green (Catherine West) about the vital role of
on mental health issues arising afterwards. However, Parliaments and parliamentary engagement, especially
the five-day deployment team will ask the questions of around the issue of climate diplomacy. Might the Minister
Australia, and if there are specialisms that we have in want to say to all new hon. Members that joining the
this country that it needs extra help with, perhaps CPA and getting involved in having those relationships
regarding people who suffer from asthma, I am sure we with parliamentarians not just in Australia, but across
will oblige, if it asks us to do so. the Commonwealth, would be a very good idea?

Mrs Wheeler: I am so delighted that the hon. Lady

Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Congratulations
has been made a dame in the new year’s honours—quite
on your election, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that
right too. We once had a really interesting trip to
your generosity to Northern Ireland Members will be
Jordan. She acted as a lady then and she is a dame now,
unmatched by anyone else who takes the Chair, so
so that is very good.
thank you very much indeed.
On the hon. Lady’s point about joining in with the
I welcome the statement by the Minister. Indeed, I
CPA, there is actually the Inter-Parliamentary Union as
spoke yesterday, and before then, to the authorities at
well. We have lots of new Members and there may be
Australia House, who have also welcomed the immediate
opportunities for the majority for a bit of slipping and
support that the United Kingdom Government have
pairing—you never know. Yes, I would encourage all
given to, as she rightly said, our closest friend, Australia.
Members, particularly new ones, to find out about
That is very important. Following on from the questions
opportunities with the CPA and the IPU. I am sure that
about lessons learned, surely action must be taken to
those teams would welcome some new blood coming
help Australia with the reforestation of its wonderful
through as well.
land and protection of species in future. We must go on
to ensure that any expert help that can be given from Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): Congratulations on
these islands is given and that Australia is encouraged your re-election, Madam Deputy Speaker.
to redevelop and regrow in areas that have been burned.
Like so many, I have family members who live in
Australia, and over Christmas I was with my daughter
Mrs Wheeler: Absolutely. I cannot thank the hon.
in Melbourne, so I really appreciate the statement and
Gentleman enough for that very good question. We all
the expressions of support for Australia today. Australia
know that we need to have that canopy of trees to help
is likely to face more out-of-control blazes tomorrow,
with decarbonising for the whole of the world, so it is
and there is a prospect of entire ecosystems being lost.
important to give any assistance we can with that. I am
The support being given at the moment is hugely important,
sure that my civil servants are now going to blanch,
but when the fires die down, will the Government have
because he has given me a good idea. We have great
talks with Scott Morrison and the Government of
relationships with Kew, which has world experts in
Australia about the environment and how we can help
planting, seeds and whatever else might be needed. I
in future, for the good of not only Australia but the rest
will to ask to see what connections and suggestions
of the world?
Kew might have, subject to Australia asking for such
help. That was a great question and I thank the hon. Mrs Wheeler: Indeed. I thank my hon. Friend for
Gentleman. raising that important point; if she will forgive me, I will
face the Chair. If I have not said it enough, I stress that
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): May I add my welcome this is the beginning of the help that we are offering
and congratulations to you on resuming your post, Australia. We realise that the bushfire season is only just
Madam Deputy Speaker? beginning, so this will go on for some time, and then
The Singapore air force has offered support with two there will be the pressing issues of the regeneration of
Chinooks, and the New Zealanders have offered some trees, forest and the scrub that the cows and sheep need
troops as well, but the Royal Air Force has the lion’s to eat. Whatever technical and professional assistance
share of Europe’s strategic air lift capability. Will the Australia asks us for, we stand ready to help.
Minister undertake to see whether there is any aviation
assistance that we can supply? Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP):
Welcome back, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mrs Wheeler: My hon. Friend asks a question that I While we sympathise with those caught in this
asked my officials earlier, so it is clearly one of the best environmental disaster, we know that this is a climate
questions that has been asked today. Most importantly, change emergency issue. The last six years have been the
649 Australian Bushfires 9 JANUARY 2020 Australian Bushfires 650

six hottest on record, which underpins the problem we Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): We are a nation of
have. In the 2020 climate change performance index, animal lovers. Our first concern, of course, is always the
Australia is ranked bottom, with the US ranked second impact on people and their properties, and I thank the
from bottom. We know that the US has pulled out of Minister for what she is doing on that, but will she join
the Paris agreement. We keep hearing about the new me in thanking Redditch Pets at Home, which is leading
global UK, so can the Minister advise what influence on an initiative to donate up to £100,000 nationally to
she has in those two countries and what climate change the World Wide Fund for Nature, enabling local people
policy changes the UK is pushing for with them? in Redditch to play their part and help with the devastating
loss of animal life?
Mrs Wheeler: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his
question. He has moved to where one of the microphones Mrs Wheeler: Indeed. Having mentioned my constituent
is, so I heard his question, which is great. With regard to Helen Jackson, I am very grateful to the constituents of
the conversations we have been having, our embassy Redditch and Pets at Home for that initiative, but I
and our consuls general are talking all the time to the again ask everybody to ensure that, whatever donations
Australian state and the federal states, some of which they make, they please check that it is to an organisation
are already declaring that they will decarbonise by registered with the Australian Charities and Not-for-profits
2050. I think that we are pushing at an open door. Commission. I would not want this tragedy to be made
Australia has not resiled from the Paris agreement. We worse by scammers getting involved and making money
will keep them there, and we will ask them to be more out of it.
ambitious. On every visit that I make as Minister for
Asia and the Pacific, whether it be to Singapore or BILL PRESENTED
Seoul, it is part of my brief to ask the country to be
more ambitious. DIRECT PAYMENTS TO FARMERS (LEGISLATIVE
CONTINUITY) BILL
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): We have heard much Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
about the scale of the fires in Australia. Will my hon. Secretary Theresa Villiers, supported by the Prime
Friend join me in commending the bravery shown by Minister, Michael Gove, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
the Australian firefighters in trying to tackle them? Secretary Steve Barclay, Secretary Simon Hart, George
Eustice and Rishi Sunak, presented a Bill to make
Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend for his question provision for the incorporation of the Direct Payments
and welcome him to this place. I will indeed join him. Regulation into domestic law; for enabling an increase
The stories that we have heard about the huge valour in the total maximum amount of direct payments under
and the trauma that the firefighters—so many of them that Regulation; and for connected purposes.
reserve firefighters, just looking after their villages and Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on
townships—have been quite incredible, and our hearts Monday 13 January, and to be printed (Bill 5) with
and love go out to those brave people. explanatory notes (Bill 5-EN).
651 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 652
Agreement) Bill
European Union (Withdrawal Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): The Minister
mentioned the fact that the Bill will be going to the
Agreement) Bill other place and the much more positive atmosphere
Third Reading that has applied in this place. Does he believe that that
Queen’s consent signified. sends a message to the other place as to how they
should conduct themselves, and does he have any
reservations about the fact that the unrepresentative
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I make-up of the other place, in respect of the over-
must inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected representation of remain forces, might derail the hitherto
the amendment in the name of the leader of the Scottish smooth progress of this excellent Bill?
National party.
James Duddridge: I thank my right hon. Friend for
1.5 pm his intervention. Just as we will be watching the House
of Lords carefully next week, they have been watching
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting us carefully during the Bill’s passage. They will have
the European Union (James Duddridge): I beg to move, listened to the change in tone and seen the majorities by
That the Bill be now read the Third time. which votes were won, and I am sure that they will
This Bill will implement in UK law the withdrawal reflect on that in their deliberations, doing a proper
agreement between the United Kingdom and the European job of scrutiny as part of the whole democratic process.
Union, ensuring that the United Kingdom departs from Mr Speaker—sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker—
the European Union with a deal at the end of this
month. We are delivering on our promise to the British Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Will the Minister
people. It was a pleasure to spend yesterday afternoon give way?
in Committee of the whole House, and I would like to
pay tribute to Members across the House for the James Duddridge: I will give way, because it will give
contributions they have made throughout the debates me an opportunity to get the sex of Madam Deputy
and the constructive spirit, particularly more recently, Speaker right the second time.
in which everyone has engaged. I have no doubt that
today’s proceedings will be of a similar calibre, and the Mr Perkins: The Minister might have said in his
Secretary of State, who is in his place, and I are very answer to the right hon. Member for New Forest East
much looking forward to today. (Dr Lewis) that if he thinks the other place is
I would like to thank the Public Bill Office for its unrepresentative, there is a way that we could deal with
support to all Members and officials across Government, that and ensure that they are elected by the people, like
not just at the Department for Exiting the European we are.
Union, for their hard work in ensuring the delivery of
this Bill and for supporting Ministers throughout, many James Duddridge: We do like elections on this side of
of whom have contributed behind the scenes rather the House at the moment, but I am not going to be
than at the Dispatch Box. I would also like to thank the drawn into reform of the House of Lords, which is
three knights of the realm who stood in as Deputy slightly out of scope of the withdrawal agreement Bill.
Speakers in Committee and Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is an historic milestone—
This Bill is essential in preparing our country for leaving the European Union with a deal on 31 January.
leaving the European Union and will ensure that the It will soon be upon us, and I am delighted that we can
deal that has been reached can be implemented. It also then move on to other national priorities and help the
ensures that we can protect the rights of citizens who country come together. I commend this Bill to the
have made their lives here, that there is no hard border House.
on the island of Ireland and that we take back control
of our money and our laws. The Bill will shortly move 1.9 pm
to another place, with its substantive stages beginning
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I join the
on Monday, and I know that the House will be watching
Minister in thanking the panel of Chairs for presiding
its progress with great interest.
over the Committee stages and the work they did in
preparation for the debates we had, the staff in the
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I notice Public Bill Office for the work they did over the Christmas
that today, the President of the European Commission recess and all Members who contributed to the debate
is reported as saying that it will be virtually impossible in Committee.
to conclude a trade deal within a year. Given that we The last two days have had their highs and lows. On
start off with exactly the same regulations and tariffs, I the one hand, there have been very many thoughtful
am mystified as to what the problem is. What does the and considered contributions, and on the other hand,
Minister think the problem is, given that we are going to there has been a disappointing and resolute refusal of
protect workers’ rights? Unless they want to shackle us the Government to seriously consider any amendments
forever with business rules, what is the problem? however constructively intended. The Minister is right
that there was a different tone to the debate, and that is
James Duddridge: I have seen that report, but from clearly because everybody recognises that the result of
my discussions with the Secretary of State, that does the general election means we are leaving the European
not reflect the tone of the meeting with the Prime Union in 22 days’ time. But I think there was also a
Minister. There is a political declaration and an interest recognition, I hope on both sides, that leaving the EU
to move forward and sort this within 11 months. does not mean that we will have got Brexit done. We will
653 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 654
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
have completed the first step, departure, but the difficult to agree a future trade treaty. That good faith was
stage is yet to come: agreeing the new relationship not evident from Mrs von der Leyen yesterday, but I hope
just on trade, but as many pointed in Committee, on Members have also heard her warning, which was echoed
security crucially—but much more besides, from data by the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward
sharing to research collaboration and more. These are Leigh), that it would be impossible to reach a comprehensive
in many ways more complex issues than those we have trade deal by the end of 2020.
wrestled with over the last three and a half years, and I hope Members will reflect on whether it really is
they are issues with deeply serious consequences for the wise for the Government to have added clause 33,
country. barring Ministers from extending the implementation
period. Of course, this is just a gimmick, and with their
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): majority, the Government could at any point repeal that
May I thank my hon. Friend for his speech and add to clause and negotiate a short extension. However, whatever
his list the anguish that many of my constituents are our views on these issues, we should all be concerned
feeling—not just EU nationals, but those whose neighbours that this Bill removes any role for Parliament in shaping
or family are EU nationals? This is, for many, quite a that decision, so if the Government have not concluded
difficult moment. and ratified an agreement with the EU on our future
relationship, the supposed sovereignty reclaimed for
Paul Blomfield: I very much agree with my hon. this Parliament will be meaningless. We will have no say
Friend. It is a difficult moment for many, and I will on whether we crash out on World Trade Organisation
come on specifically to some of the issues involving EU terms, even if the Government are days away from
nationals that were not resolved by our discussions in securing an agreement with the EU.
Committee.
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): It occurs to me, as
As we move into this next stage, I would urge the
I listen to the hon. Gentleman, that foreign policy is
Government not to overinterpret their mandate in the
often common ground between successive Governments
general election. Yes, they have clearly secured an
of different parties. I wonder if it has occurred to his
overwhelming majority of seats, but not of votes. Most
party to take such an approach here: to recognise that
people in this country voted for parties that did not
the political declaration on the future relationship is
support the principle of getting Brexit done at any
now agreed between the EU and UK, and to get behind
price. As the Prime Minister observed, many of those
it as the Labour party, so that there can be absolutely no
who voted for him and colleagues had lent him their
doubt in the mind of the Commission that where we
vote. I hope, and I sense, that part of the different
want to go as a nation is the landing ground that is now
tone—the subdued mood of those on the Government
common territory between both negotiating parties.
Benches—was a dawning realisation that they may find
Does he not agree that that way we could go forward as
it hard to deliver on the high expectations that they have
one United Kingdom and succeed?
created over the last three and a half years. The Prime
Minister has talked about bringing the country together—
the Minister echoed that—and we all share the hope Paul Blomfield: I will come on to my observations on
after the divisions promoted by the debates of the last how we could have gone forward much more successfully
three years. However, I have to say that it will need a as one country in delivering on the mandate of the
different approach from the one we have seen over the referendum in 2016, but I think—this reflects the
last couple of days. It needs open ears and a willingness comment made earlier by the right hon. Member for
to reach out. Gainsborough—that the whole problem with the way in
which Conservative Members talk about the ease of
I understand why the Government rejected some of moving forward, because we are starting from a point
the amendments that we and other opposition parties of convergence, is that the objective of this Government
tabled, but not all. Many were simply restoring previous is to seek divergence, and that is precisely why these
Government commitments and others were to improve negotiations will be so difficult.
the Bill; none was to frustrate Brexit. In the short
debate on the Bill in Committee, we as an Opposition Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP):
pressed five main issues that in our view reflect the Could we just dispense with this one country, one
serious problems with both the withdrawal agreement nation business? The United Kingdom is a Union of
and the way in which the Government have chosen to nations, and all of them have a particular set of views
implement it. Over 100 amendments were tabled in about Brexit. In Scotland, we overwhelmingly reject
Committee, but not a word of the Bill has changed, and their Brexit, and that has to be recognised in the way we
we will therefore be voting against its Third Reading go forward from now on. I hope the Labour party takes
today. that on board; I am beginning to sense that it is. Does
Our first issue with the Bill is that, despite all of the hon. Gentleman understand it, and will we now
Parliament’s efforts to avoid a no-deal Brexit last year, it stop all this talk about one nation, one UK? It is a
introduces a trapdoor to no deal at the end of December Union of nations with their own particular set of views.
2020—something that the Brexit Secretary appeared
quite relaxed about in his reported comments following Paul Blomfield: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s
yesterday’s discussion with Ursula von der Leyen. Other point that we are a country of nations and regions and I
Conservative Members over the last couple of days hope, in relation to the comments I was making to
have expressed total confidence—total confidence—in Ministers, that in reaching out they will seek to reach
the Government’s ability to secure trade and security out and obtain agreement and understanding on the
deals by the December deadline, citing the EU’s way they move forward across the entire country of
commitment to use its best endeavours and good faith nations and regions.
655 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 656
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman essential to deliver on the Prime Minister’s commitment
give way? to EU citizens during the referendum campaign and
subsequently, and to avoid a repeat of Windrush. This
Paul Blomfield: It would not be the same debate if I came up this morning in Brexit orals. In the Committee
did not. I am happy to do so. debate, I was pleased to get an important clarification
from the Government on appeal rights, but I am afraid
Sir William Cash: I refer to what has just been said that I did not find the Minister’s speech on the broader
from the Scottish nationalist Benches because in fact issue of citizens’ rights at all reassuring. In a relatively
this is about the United Kingdom, which made the convoluted argument—which the Secretary of State to
treaty in the first place and abdicated its responsibility a degree repeated this morning at Brexit questions—the
and its sovereignty, but is now reasserting its status Minister attempted to put the blame for the Windrush
within the United Kingdom. It is about parliamentary scandal on the safety net that ensured that victims could
sovereignty, and it is also about democracy because that seek recourse against the treatment that they endure
decision was taken by the British people in the full from immigration legislation and argued that the way to
knowledge of the voters of the United Kingdom, not avoid a Windrush scandal for EU citizens was to take
any one part of it. away the safety net provided by guaranteeing their
rights.
Paul Blomfield: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. We have already seen that almost half of applicants
We had a whole debate around sovereignty in which my to the EU settlement scheme have not been granted
hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam settled status; they have been granted pre-settled status.
Debbonaire) made some very astute observations, but Ministers have told us that we should be relaxed about
the hon. Gentleman needs to recognise my underlying this, claiming that pre-settled status is an automatic
point: the decision of the general election is not a mandate pathway to settled status. I am afraid we have every
to bulldoze through a particular version of Brexit at reason to be concerned, because it is not.
any cost on all the peoples of the United Kingdom, and
the next few months must be approached with sensitivity Catherine West: Does my hon. Friend agree that
and caution if we are to stay together as a United there is a real risk here that once again the Home Office
Kingdom. is making a pig’s ear of this whole thing?
Mr Perkins: May I take this opportunity to congratulate
my hon. Friend as we approach the end of this Bill on Paul Blomfield: Well, the Home Office has got form
the incredibly gallant and diligent work he and his on these things, hasn’t it?
colleagues have done in attempting to investigate and Let me explain why I am concerned specifically on
scrutinise this legislation? It is tremendously sad that this issue. Pre-settled status is intended for those EU
the Government have, in the minds of many people who citizens who have been living in the UK for less than
voted leave, successfully brought forward the idea that five years. However, many EU citizens who have been
any kind of scrutiny and any kind of amendment to living here far longer, many for decades, are being
their legislation is somehow disrespecting that mandate, granted pre-settled status. They will be required to
as though whatever the Government say is what that reapply to the scheme before their five years of leave
vote back in 2016 meant. I accept that we are leaving the under pre-settled status is up. If they do not, they will
EU and I think we need to get on with that process, but lose all their rights in the UK and, as the Home Office
it is extremely regrettable that under the guise of taking Minister pointed out, be liable to deportation.
back control they have sought to disrespect parliamentary
Despite these risks, my understanding is— I would be
scrutiny in the way that they have done, and this will
very happy to be corrected— that the Government have
have serious consequences for us in the future.
no plans to notify EU citizens when their leave is about
to expire, and prompt them to apply for settled status. If
Paul Blomfield: I thank my hon. Friend for his kind they do not even know of the need to reapply, many EU
comments, but also endorse the point he makes, and it citizens will face the same difficulties evidencing their
has been a constant strand of the discussions over the five years’ residency, so in any closing remarks from the
past two days. Government Front Bench I would be grateful if Ministers
can tell us what will happen to EU citizens who are
Mr Perkins: Three years. granted pre-settled status for five years, then reapply to
the scheme for settled status but are not able to evidence
Paul Blomfield: Yes, three years. the required five years’ residence, which was the basic
Through our new clause 4 we tried to offer a way of problem leading to their being granted pre-settled status
giving Parliament the role for which we were elected—and in the first place.
it is the role that my hon. Friend describes—without
requiring an extension to the transition that is longer Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): The hon.
than necessary. Some Conservative Members who are Gentleman is making an excellent point about the
not here today expressed sympathy with that approach, limitations of pre-settled status, but does he agree that
but not with our specific formulation, so I hope that there is as a gender element to this, too? Women, and
this issue will be revisited when the Bill moves to the particularly older women, who may have had many
other place. years of caring responsibilities and who may not have
The second point that was a key concern to us was had their own bank accounts or paid the bills in the
citizens’ rights. Colleagues from all Opposition parties household may find it even more difficult to evidence
set out why we believe that a declaratory system is that now and in the future?
657 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 658
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Paul Blomfield: The hon. Lady makes an important Paul Blomfield: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments,
point, and it came up in Committee. That is why I have which anticipate a point I was just about to make. He is
pressed Ministers time and again to release their equalities absolutely right. Throughout this process we have called
impact assessment of the settled status scheme, which they for alignment on workers’ rights, environmental standards,
have refused to do. That failure presents real worries. equalities and human rights not simply because that is
The scheme is clearly open to error—and, as has been right—although that is hugely important—but because
pointed out, the Home Office has form on these things. it provides the basis for the close relationship on which
It has already thrown up problems, and it is therefore our trade and our economic partnership with the European
crucial that there is proper and independent monitoring. Union depends.
The independent monitoring authority was set up in the
withdrawal agreement, but schedule 2 to the Bill makes Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I am slightly
it far from independent from Government. I hope this puzzled by the hon. Gentleman’s decision to oppose the
issue will be re-examined when the Bill moves to another Bill today, since the consequence of the Bill going down
place, to ensure that the Government are not allowed to would be us not leaving the European Union on 31 January,
mark their own homework. which is clearly still Labour policy. Is he actually saying
that he wants, once we have left the European Union,
The third, and most immediate and outrageous,
future laws in this country on employment rights and
consequence of the Bill will be to remove the commitments
the environment to still be decided not by this Parliament
on unaccompanied child refugees. This was a heartless
but by the European Union, without us having any
move by the Government, signalling their intention to
involvement whatever in the shaping of those laws?
abandon our moral commitments to the most vulnerable.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton,
Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) was right to Paul Blomfield: I will explain precisely what I mean
point out yesterday that this move is troubling because by my comments, which echo the intervention made by
the measures on unaccompanied children in the EU my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen
withdrawal Act were previously supported by the Kinnock).
Government and by this House. There is no good The last four years have divided our country like no
reason for them to be removed at this point. others. It did not have to be like that. If only, after the
Moving to the fourth point, we have had significant referendum, when David Cameron ran away from the
discussion on this and we saw a remarkable moment in crisis he created, the then new Prime Minister had been
the House yesterday. All the Northern Irish parties straight with the British people. If only she had said
represented here joined together to table an amendment that our country is split down the middle; it has voted to
on the impact of the Northern Ireland protocol in leave but by a painfully close margin of 52:48, which is a
response to the overwhelming calls from the business mandate to end our membership of the EU but not to
community there, who fear the deep and long-lasting rupture our relationship with our closest neighbours
effects of this agreement. The hon. Member for Belfast and most important trading partners. If she had said
South (Claire Hanna) was absolutely right to express that we would leave but stay close—aligned with the
her concern that in the two hours allocated to discussion single market in a customs union, and members of the
of the protocol only one representative of Northern agencies we have built together over 47 years—we would
Ireland was given the chance to make a speech. By have supported her. She could have secured an
voting against new clause 55 yesterday and rejecting overwhelming majority within this House. She could
Labour’s amendment 1, the Government confirmed have brought the country together again after the divisions
that they intend to avoid transparency about the impact of the referendum. Instead, she pivoted to those whom
of the Northern Ireland protocol and will continue to her Chancellor—not those on the Opposition Benches
cut out the people of Northern Ireland from Brexit but her Chancellor—described as the Brexit extremists
negotiations. There are clearly serious concerns across in her party, risking the economy and security of our
the House on that. country. The Bill continues on that path. We have
consistently rejected that approach, and that is why we
Finally, there were amendments on the future relationship will do so again today by voting the Bill down.
with the European Union. The Bill paves the way for
the UK to leave, as the Minister pointed out, on 31 January,
but that is only the first part of the story. In our 1.32 pm
negotiations with the EU on our future relationship,
Labour has consistently argued for a close economic Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings)
partnership with our nearest neighbours and our biggest (Con): May I welcome you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to
trading partner. your place? I look forward to your wisdom and benevolence.
In our age, hyperbole is commonplace. Exaggeration
Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): My hon. Friend permeates debate and colours discourse. Superlatives
is making an excellent speech, and I would like to echo litter our language. Yet there are few in this House who
the comments about the diligent way in which he is would disagree with my claim that it is almost impossible
going about this task. Does he agree that 52-48 was to exaggerate the significance of the Bill and what it
a mandate to move house but stay in the same facilitates—our departure from the European Union.
neighbourhood? if we are actually about respecting the The case I make today is that even more important than
democratic mandate from 2016 that is about leaving the the Bill’s provisions is its purpose. Even more important
European Union—yes, leaving the political project—we than leaving is the reason that we are leaving. That is the
should be staying aligned on workers’ rights, environmental people’s rejection of the prevailing political paradigm
protections and consumer standards? That is respecting that the chatterati and glitterati, the denizens of the
the democratic mandate from 2016. liberal elite, believed for years was beyond question. At
659 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 660
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Sir John Hayes] Those hard-working patriots prefer tradition, order
and established values to the politically correct, poisonous
the core of this perversity was an attachment to pan- cocktail of egalitarianism and assertive individualism.
nationalism and a consequent affection for supranational This paradigm shift is at the heart of the message
governance. This led, among the liberal establishment, broadcast first in the 2016 referendum and then still
to a diminished sense of meaningful place. They came more loudly in the general election at the end of last
to regard it as not just permissible but desirable to erode year. GK Chesterton spoke of the people who had “not
the familiar touchstones of enduring certainty. spoken yet”. Well, the people have now spoken. They
have spoken loudly, clearly and decisively. They have
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): Will sent a message that this House had better hear. On the
the right hon. Gentleman give way? Conservative Benches I think we have. Indeed, not only
have we heard it, we have rearticulated it and we are
Sir John Hayes: I won’t right at the moment; perhaps proud to do so.
a little later. I know the hon. and learned Lady will want Angus Brendan MacNeil: On that point.
me to repeat that poetic phrase: the familiar touchstones
of enduring certainty, epitomised by a spirit of local Sir John Hayes: I have the greatest regard for the hon.
allegiance and a sense of national pride. The truth is Gentleman and so on that basis alone I will happily give
that the bourgeois liberals—and at that point I give way way to him.
to the hon. and learned Lady. Angus Brendan MacNeil: I am very grateful to the
right hon. Gentleman. He is being very kind in giving
Joanna Cherry: I am not going to deny that I am a way. I would not want to puncture his balloon too
bourgeois liberal, but many people in Scotland who are much, but here goes. The reality is not as he paints it.
not bourgeois liberals voted to remain in the European The reality is that 43% of people voting in a first-past-
Union. Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge the-post system is why all this is happening. It is not
that the situation he is describing pertains in England that the great British whatever he wants to call them
but not in Scotland, where 62% of the population voted decided it, but that 43% in first past the post and the
to remain and where my party, which I do not think winner takes all. It is not the great sweep of the proletariat
really could be described as a bourgeois liberal party or the bourgeois, or whatever he wants to call it.
but does contain some old bourgeois liberals like myself,
won 48 of the 59 seats? Will he do us the courtesy of Sir John Hayes: I do not want to go off on a tangent.
acknowledging that he is talking about England, not Despite what I described earlier as your wisdom and
Scotland? benevolence, Mr Deputy Speaker, you would not let me,
but I will just say this to the hon. Gentleman. This
Sir John Hayes: I congratulate the hon. and learned Prime Minister went to the people, at some risk to
Lady on her honesty. She separates herself not only himself and to others on the Conservative Benches, and
from most of her party but from most of the voters. She put a very clear message to them. He essentially said, “I
says that she is part of the bourgeois liberal elite, but cannot make progress in the current parliamentary
they are not. arrangement because of the arithmetic. Do you want
me to deliver Brexit? Do you want to get Brexit done or
Joanna Cherry: Will the right hon. Gentleman give don’t you?” The British people said, “That is exactly
way? what we want you to do.” They have sent us here to do
just that. Any further prevarication or hesitation will,
Sir John Hayes: I will give way just one more time. frankly, ring hollow in the ears of those people. I simply
advise the hon. Gentleman that in victory the test of
character is humility, but in defeat the test of character
Joanna Cherry: The right hon. Gentleman has made
is being wise enough to learn the lessons of that defeat.
a very personal comment about me separating myself
One or two people on the Opposition Benches have
from most of my voters. Would he like to explain why, if
learnt those lessons and have made that clear, but others
I have separated myself from most of my voters, my
need to do so very quickly indeed.
majority over the Conservative and Unionist party went
from 1,000 to 12,000 votes in the general election? I know that others want to contribute, so I will bring
my remarks to a conclusion by saying this. The Bill is
the first step not on a trip to a different place but on a
Sir John Hayes: One day, if the hon. and learned
return journey: a return journey for this United Kingdom
Lady continues, and maybe she will for many, many
to hope, to patriotism and to greatness.
years, she just might attain the 30,000 majority that I
got in South Holland and the Deepings, but I think it is 1.39 pm
very unlikely indeed.
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): I beg
As I say, the bourgeois liberals find it hard to stomach to move,
that hard-working British patriots do not share their That this House declines to give a Third Reading to the
affection for globalisation and their preoccupation with European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill because the Scottish
diversity. Parliament has not consented to those parts of the Bill which
encroach on devolved competencies, and because it fails to take
Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): into account the fact that the people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? to remain in the European Union; and further believes that the
Bill is not fit for purpose as it continues to undermine the
fundamental principles of the Scotland Act 1998 by reserving to
Sir John Hayes: No, I won’t give way, because I want the UK Parliament powers that would otherwise be devolved to
to make some progress as others want to speak. the Scottish Parliament upon the UK leaving the European Union.
661 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 662
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
I congratulate you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on your new Prime Minister has sought no common ground, within
position in the big comfy chair—hopefully you have this Parliament or with the devolved nations, despite
your feet up on the footstool. the fact that two of them voted to remain.
I thank all the staff of the Public Bill Office and the Brexit was never defined during the referendum. Indeed,
Clerks for the support that they have given right across Nigel Farage and some of the most ardent Brexiteers
the House in helping to put the Bills together and in suggested that of course the UK would stay in the
helping Members to draw up and submit amendments, single market—that it would be madness to leave. They
which is no easy thing for many of us. They have had to just wanted to get back to a common market.
do that through all the stages of Brexit legislation, and The Scottish Government’s report, “Scotland’s Place
all of us should thank them for their work. in Europe”, put forward as early as December 2016—
Despite all the understandable triumphalism after three months before the article 50 letter was sent—the
winning the election in England, we see in this Prime compromise proposal that the UK should stay in the
Minister’s deal the potential of a repeat of the Brexit single market and customs union. With a 52:48 referendum
saga of the last three and a half years, as through hubris result, that might even have provided the basis of a
he is making similar mistakes to his predecessor. She compromise between leavers who did not want closer
painted herself into a corner with her red lines before political union and remainers who wanted to keep as
carrying out an economic assessment to decide what many EU benefits as possible. However, if England and
form of Brexit would be least damaging. There has been Wales wanted to diverge further, the proposal was that
no economic assessment of this deal. The last one was Scotland and Northern Ireland should be allowed to
in 2018, on the Chequers “cake and eat it” plan, which stay in the single market and customs union, which
was such a fairy tale that we could hear the unicorns would have respected how those nations voted.
galloping down Whitehall. Sadly, the proposals were dismissed by the Government
The former Prime Minister launched the article 50 out of hand, and the fact that 62% of Scottish voters
process, with its fixed end-date and the clock ticking all voted to remain has been completely ignored, with no
the time, without a scooby as to what the UK actually quarter given and no compromise offered. Indeed, Scotland
wanted to ask for from the EU. This Prime Minister has and the majority of her elected representatives have
made it illegal to extend transition despite the fact that been treated with growing disrespect in this place over
11 months is a ridiculously short time to negotiate even the last three and half years. I gently point out that we
a basic free trade deal, let alone the complex shopping do actually have television and the internet in Scotland
list of the political declaration. and that this is being seen by the Scottish people.
The former Prime Minister kept her cards close to Our request for a devolved or, at least, regionalised
her chest, so Parliament had no input or influence on immigration process after Brexit has also been dismissed,
the withdrawal deal as it developed. The removal of despite Scotland’s demographic need for immigration.
clause 31 from the Bill means that Parliament, and We have to be able to ensure that EU citizens, who have
indeed devolved Governments, will have no influence made their home in Scotland—including my other half—
on the future relationship with the EU, despite the can stay without being exposed to the notorious hostile
impact on all our constituents and local industries. environment of the Home Office, but, in future, we also
The former Prime Minister was then terribly shocked need to be able to attract immigrants from Europe and
that, when she finally produced her deal, it was such a across the world. With the risk to our public services
flop, drawn like a lifeless rabbit out of a hat and rejected and key industries such as tourism and farming, and the
by those on both sides of the Brexit debate, including threat of depopulation in the highlands and islands, this
the current Prime Minister. Members of this House are UK Government are certainly not acting in Scotland’s
being sidelined and can therefore only wonder what the interests.
future relationship will look like when it is eventually The UK Government have already taken the overall
unveiled in December. power to set the rules in 24 areas of devolved competence.
All that the Scottish and Welsh Governments requested
Sir William Cash: I say, first, how much I respect the was that any new UK frameworks should be agreed
hon. Lady. She sits on the European Scrutiny Committee, rather than imposed, but the Tory Government refused—
which I have had the honour to Chair for some time. hardly the respect agenda that we used to hear so much
On the question of how the negotiations were about. With the inclusion of fishing, farming, food
conducted—as she knows, we have been conducting our standards, food safety and food labelling, as well as
investigation into that—a very important point that we public procurement, it is clear that this is about being
made was that the terms and conditions were set by the able to tie up Scotland and sell it out in a trade deal.
European Union and accepted by the UK. That will This power grab already drives a coach and horses
change now because of the general election result—I through the Scotland Act 1998, but in voting down
just thought that I would make that observation. yesterday my simple amendment to protect the devolution
Acts from sweeping delegated powers we saw a Government
Dr Whitford: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his taking power to alter the devolution settlement without
contribution. I think that the tone was set when we saw even parliamentary scrutiny.
the former Brexit Secretary, the right hon. Member for Last night, the Scottish Parliament voted by 92 to 29
Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), turn up to the to withhold legislative consent from the Bill, due to the
first meeting with not a piece of paper in his hand to risk that it poses to Scotland and the current devolution
meet the EU negotiators. That was rather naive. settlement. Ignoring this voice and riding roughshod
Early in her premiership, the former Prime Minister over the legislative consent process after 20 years of
spoke of consulting across the House, and across the devolution will undermine the very Union that Conservative
UK, before she went to Europe, but she never did. This Members protest to hold so dear.
663 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 664
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
1.48 pm which granted a very clear in/out referendum. We had
the referendum itself. [Interruption.] It’s no good the
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I heartily right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)
congratulate you on your re-election, Mr Deputy Speaker, shaking his head. Four times the people have spoken.
and I wish you and the new team the very best of luck in The result of the referendum was clear: 17.4 million
your endeavours as you work with the new House. people voted to leave. We then had the 2017 election,
I congratulate the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire when the Labour party and the Conservative party
(Dr Whitford) on her speech. She made her points very stood on a platform of honouring the referendum result,
well, but she will not be surprised that I disagree with and 80% of the votes went to parties who promised
virtually every single word. Above all, I disagree with that. Still the people did not get what they wanted.
her attitude and the gloom and the misery on the
With the complexities of the last Parliament, we had
Opposition Benches, when I see this as a day of great
the creation of the Brexit party. Incredibly, that party,
celebration.
from nowhere, came top in the European elections. The
I also congratulate the hon. Member for Weaver Vale Conservative party managed to come fifth behind the
(Mike Amesbury) on coming top of the private Members’ Greens, which was a remarkable achievement. Then we
Bill ballot today; I hope he chooses a subject that gets had the recent election. Yet again, people were bombarded
agreement across the House. A long time ago, in 2005, I with propaganda, and told they were racist and stupid,
came 16th in the ballot. I must acknowledge the part and again they voted in huge numbers for the very
played by my near constituency neighbour, my hon. simple principle that they should send Members of
Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). He Parliament here to make their laws and that if they
and I worked together closely drafting a private Member’s cannot make satisfactory laws, they can be removed.
Bill, the European Communities Act 1972 (Disapplication)
Bill, in which was used the memorable “notwithstanding”
Several hon. Members rose—
phrase, in clause 1(2):
“This subsection applies to any enactment which includes the
words: ‘The provisions of this enactment shall take effect Mr Paterson: No. I’m not giving way. We know where
notwithstanding the provisions of the European Communities the Scottish nationalists are coming from, because they
Act 1972.’” make the same point every time. Just to keep them
happy, though, I will give them a little anecdote.
Sir William Cash: Is my right hon. Friend aware that In the town where I was born, Whitchurch, we have
the wording of this Bill’s parliamentary sovereignty six polling stations in one building, the civic centre. On
clause, clause 39, which is about to pass its Third referendum day, people came up to me off a building
Reading, is exactly the same as that in our private site, covered in dust, and said, “It is good to see you
Member’s Bill and in the amendment I tabled in 1986? here, Mr Paterson, because it’s about them”. I asked,
“Who’s them?” They said, “We can get rid of you, we
Mr Paterson: With great prescience, my hon. Friend can vote you out, but we cannot get rid of them”, and
makes exactly the point I was about to make. Here we then they made the very telling point, “You can do
are, 15 years later, and, moved by the Government, the nothing about them either”.
“notwithstanding” clause is going into law, subject to
the other place being sensible. I pay tribute to him. He We had an interesting debate yesterday about this.
has been mocked, traduced and insulted, but he has We can do absolutely nothing about European law,
stood for the simple democratic principle that members which is imposed upon us. I had the honour to serve on
of the public, every few years, are given the opportunity the European Scrutiny Committee with my hon. Friend
to vote for individual human beings to come to this the Member for Stone. One day, a Labour Member was
place and make laws. If those laws are satisfactory, they ill and a Liberal Democrat got stuck in the lift and we
will get re-elected; if not, they will get booted out. They managed to vote that a measure on the dairy industry—of
will be sent here to raise money by extracting it compulsorily, great interest to my constituents—would be passed for a
by law, from people’s bank accounts—that is what vote on the Floor of the House. It would not have been
taxation is—and if that money is well spent, they will be amendable, but we could have made our points. What
re-elected; if it is not, they will be kicked out. It is an happened? The Leader of the House at the time, the
incredibly simple, basic idea. I find it staggering that we right hon. Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett),
are still today listening to miseries from the Opposition turned up at business questions and said, “You’re not
Benches cavilling about this simple principle. even having a debate”. That was the amount of scrutiny
we had. I find it extraordinary that people do not
Angus Brendan MacNeil: I will give the right hon. welcome the chance to scrutinise Ministers. From now
Gentleman something joyous to think about: 57% of on, they will be able to harpoon Ministers who make
the people of the United Kingdom did not vote for him bad decisions. They can have Adjournment debates and
or his Government, yet because of our dodgy system, as criticise law. We can get law amended and repealed.
the 43% and people across the world can see, the None of that will apply to European law until we pass
Conservative party is in charge—winner takes all. the Bill.
There are so many areas where European law has
Mr Paterson: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will not damaged this country, but the winner by a mile is still
mention that 56% of the votes in the recent general fish. In 2005, as shadow Fisheries Minister, I wrote a
election were for parties that wanted to keep Scotland green paper called “A Consultation on a National Policy
inside the United Kingdom. on Fisheries Management in UK Waters”. It is the
I have made this point many times, so I will be very paper on which we fought the 2005 general election. For
brief. How many more times do the people have to be the first time, a serious political party proposed repatriating
listened to? We had the Cameron referendum promise, a power. I come from North Shropshire. One of the
665 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 666
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
most fascinating experiences of my 22 years here was I was disappointed yesterday that President von der
going all around the coast of the UK—right up to Leyen—in what I thought was a very interesting speech,
Whalsay, right down to Cornwall and Dover—but above much of which I welcomed—talked of a
all going to the maritime nations of Norway, the Faroes, “partnership that goes well beyond trade”,
Iceland, Newfoundland in Canada and then down the and mentioned fisheries. That is unacceptable. As my
east coast of the United States. I also went to the hon. Friend has just said, it is absolutely essential that
Falklands. It was extraordinary to see how modern we take full, total, sovereign control of the EEZ and all
techniques could bring thriving fishing communities—some that is within it, and that from then on we negotiate as
of the most remote communities in the world—wealth, an independent maritime nation.
prosperity, jobs and investment.
By contrast, in this country we have utter devastation. Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): My
This wonderful occupation delivered wealth and jobs right hon. Friend will, of course, recall that prior to our
for centuries until we were stupid enough to give the accession to the common market, there was no common
power to the continental level, and we now have the fisheries policy. It was concocted entirely in anticipation
shameful, wicked waste of 1 million tonnes of fish of our accession, so that our waters could be plundered.
thrown back dead into the sea as pollution every year,
and yet Opposition Members this afternoon are defending Mr Paterson: My hon. right Friend is absolutely right.
staying in the EU and the common fisheries policy.
Dr Whitford: Will the right hon. Gentleman give
Sir John Hayes: My right hon. Friend will remember way?
that I was shadow Fisheries Minister before him. I was Mr Paterson: I want to move on, because others wish
very good and he was even better. The truth is—this is to speak.
the question that Opposition Members in particular
need to answer—that the CFP was not only disastrous I really hope that Ministers take this on board. It is
for fishing communities and fishermen; it was also a fundamental that we take back full control, and, however
conservation disaster for our oceans. Anyone who signs much pressure we are under from our current European
up to the EU signs up to the CFP and the decimation of partners, regain our status as an independent nation,
our oceans. partly because of the environmental harm—the shocking
shame of throwing back a million tonnes of fish.
Mr Paterson: My right hon. Friend is quite right. The There is one other issue which we did not have time to
opening line of my paper said: discuss fully yesterday, and which I hope very much will
“The Common Fisheries Policy is a biological, environmental,
be resolved in the negotiations. That is the essential
economic and social disaster; it is beyond reform.” benefit of a comprehensive free trade agreement whereby
Northern Ireland will be level-pegging with the rest of
Today we are giving ourselves the power to reform it the UK on every aspect of policy, which will mean that
and take back this power. I would like those on the we can drop the current protocol. As the Under-Secretary
Front Bench to remember that this is a crucial, totemic of State for Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the
issue. We have to take back full power and complete Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), agreed yesterday
control over our exclusive economic zone and all the in reply to me, the current protocol is a fallback position.
marine resources within it. With a comprehensive free trade agreement, all the
complexities such as the worries of the Northern Ireland
David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con): Given his business community—mentioned yesterday by the hon.
previous experience, I am sure my right hon. Friend was Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield)—will
coming to this point, but does he agree that in the fall away, and we will also have a great opportunity to
negotiating phase, which we would have been into embrace growth around the world.
10 months ago had Opposition Members voted for the
It is worth pointing out that our exports to the EU
original deal, we must not trade access to our waters
grew by 1.3% last year and now total £296.8 billion,
for a free trade agreement, and that, despite the scare-
while our exports to non-EU countries grew by 6.3%,
mongering—perhaps even wishful thinking—from
reaching £376.7 billion. The European Commission
Opposition Members, there is no evidence that the
itself has said that 95% of world growth over the next
Government will do that?
20 years will be outside the European Union, which is
why the International Monetary Fund predicts that
Mr Paterson: My hon. Friend, who speaks with great soon the only continent with a slower rate of growth
knowledge of this subject and represents his constituents than Europe will be Antarctica. This is a great day for
so well, has just spoken with total wisdom. It is fundamental our economy. This is a great day to escape all the
that we do not make the mistake of the 1970s, and allow rubbish on the other side about gloom and doom. If we
the allocation of fish resources to be a trading card in do a proper, comprehensive deal, we will have opportunities
these negotiations. to work with the 11 countries in the Comprehensive and
We have said that we will take back control, and I am Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership—
looking at the Secretary of State. We will take back full which represent 13.4% of GDP—and, of course, we
control, and we will then behave like a normal independent will have a huge opportunity to do a deal very rapidly
maritime nation. We will have the very best bilateral with the United States.
relations with our neighbours, exactly like Norway and
exactly like Iceland, and, on an annual basis, we will Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): If
have discussions and possibly do reciprocal deals with we can just assume that the right hon. Gentleman’s
them. Let me say emphatically that we must not allow Brexit utopia will not happen, we are only 11 months
fisheries to be snarled up in these negotiations. away from a no-deal crash-out. We have 11 months in which
667 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 668
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Alan Brown] 2.7 pm
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): It
to agree and ratify all the trade agreements with the EU.
is a real pleasure to see you back where you belong,
The right hon. Gentleman is a former Secretary of State
Mr Deputy Speaker—in the Chair—and I congratulate
for Northern Ireland. Can he tell us what is the magic
you on your stunning success in securing that position. I
technology that is available to man the borders and
think that we have a fantastic team of Deputy Speakers,
prevent a hard border in Northern Ireland in the event
and I look forward to serving under you for years to
of a no-deal crash-out, bearing in mind that it has been
come.
said that there will no infrastructure at the border either?
I wish I could say that it is a pleasure and a privilege
Mr Paterson: We have done much work on that, to follow the right hon. Member for North Shropshire
assessing alternative arrangements, and I have fed into (Mr Paterson), but it is not. I think that I represent the
this. As the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, these almost extreme other side of the Brexit debate. I usually
issues have been massively exaggerated. There is a border say that it is good to speak in a Third Reading debate,
today for VAT, there is a border today for excise duties, but unfortunately I cannot say that either. This is something
there is a border today for alcohol duties, and there is a that the people of Scotland will very much regret and
border today for currency. It works perfectly smoothly mourn. We are not “leaving” the European Union; we
with modern technologies, and that will continue. are being taken out of the European Union against our
national collective will, and believe me, Mr Deputy
Yet again, the Scottish National party is anti-business, Speaker, that is something that will not stand.
cavilling away and looking for problems. There are
fantastic opportunities for Scotland. Our largest export As is conventional on Third Reading, I shall offer my
industry is food and drink, and a large element of that congratulations to a series of speakers. I congratulate
is Scottish whisky. When I was in the Department for the Secretary of State—who has just departed—and his
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, we calculated team on getting the Bill through the House of Commons.
that if we did a deal with India, where there are currently He is the one Secretary of State to be actually attuned
duties of up to 550%, and we got duties down, there is with his Prime Minister, unlike a succession of others
not enough distilling capacity in the whole of Scotland who did not quite see to eye with their Prime Ministers
to satisfy thirsty Indian quality whisky drinkers. and the direction in which their Brexit was travelling. I
also pay tribute to all the Opposition teams, and, in
On that happy note, let me add that the other great particular, to my hon. Friend the Member for Central
opportunity is of course the United States, and I urge Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), who has just assumed her new
the Government to move rapidly. From 1 February we role and who, as always, has led our debate with such
should be negotiating rapidly in parallel with the distinction and articulateness.
11 countries of the CPTPP, and we should be moving
rapidly to a deal with the United States. I met President The people I most want to congratulate, however, are
Trump in October. For all the colourful aspects of his the real winners of today, the hard Brexiteers and the
character, which are much criticised, he is probably the Farageists. Their success has been total, brutal and
most pro-British President we have had for decades, and absolute. Not only have they managed to secure the
we have an extraordinarily well-informed and active US hard Brexit that they have craved for years, but, with
ambassador in Woody Johnson. We will never have this Bill, they have kept in place the bullseye, the gold
another team that is so well disposed towards us. However, standard, of all hard Brexits—the possibility of a no-deal
the window is tight, given the presidential election departure from the European Union. Their anti-European
timetable, and I strongly urge the Government to push obsession will be quenched today: insatiable lifetime
on rapidly. As we saw yesterday, the European Union ambitions of wrenching this country out of the EU will
wants to drag its heels. If we can do a deal with the be realised. Their victory is even more impressive because
CPTPP and the United States, that will probably shame they started as a small, insignificant, cult-like fringe on
the EU into doing a deal with us. the edge of the Conservative party. Such is their tenacity
and commitment to the cause that they have now gone
I wish the Bill well, but, touching on the comments of mainstream. Just one generation ago they were the
my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East B-A-S-T-ards of John Major folklore. Now they run the
(Dr Lewis), I give a very clear warning to those who will country. Their commitment to the cause has been so
deal with it in the other place. They are overwhelmingly absolutely determined that they were prepared to bring
for remain, and many of them benefit from their previous down their own Prime Ministers to get their way—
employment in the European Commission. However, [Interruption.] And I shall give way to one of them
they should respect four massive votes from the people. now.
The Bill has gone through this House rapidly.
Notwithstanding the bleating from the official Opposition, Sir William Cash: I thought it might be helpful if I
we did not use the time available in the last two days: on could distinguish ourselves from what the hon. Gentleman
both Tuesday and Wednesday, we bunked off early described as the Farageists, for the simple reason that
because the Loyal Opposition could not come up with UKIP and now the Brexit Party were never going to
enough good arguments or speakers. Indeed, they can form a Government. They could therefore never negotiate,
hardly man their own Benches. I hope that those in the nor could they legislate and nor could they deliver
other place have watched what has happened. Brexit. They have now been reduced to dust by the
The Government have a clear and determined goal, decision that was taken by the British people, including
which is to honour those votes, honour the result of the in Labour leave marginal constituencies. It is the
general election, and ensure that we leave the European Conservative party that has now come back into its own
Union at 11 o’clock on the evening of 31 January. I look and is doing the right thing for the right reason in the
forward to voting for the Bill’s Third Reading tonight. national interest.
669 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 670
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Pete Wishart: I am so grateful to the high priest of I am looking around for some of the other hon.
hard Brexiteers. The reason that UKIP and the Members on the Conservative Benches. Obviously the
Farageists—whatever incarnation they are on just now— right hon. Member for North Shropshire is here, but I
have disappeared is that they have become the Conservative am looking for the newly knighted dark lord of Brexit
party. Their whole agenda has been accepted and subsumed austerity, the right hon. Member for Chingford and
into the Conservative party so that it is almost impossible Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). He is not in
to tell the modern Conservative party from the UKIP his place, and neither is the right hon. Member for
and the Farageists of the past. Wokingham (John Redwood), who so excited us with
his tales of English nationalism. None of them is here,
Angus Brendan MacNeil: That victory is so complete but all of them have to be congratulated. They are now
that, on 43%, their utter arrogance is such that they the mainstream of the Conservative party. They effectively
never need to go back and check with the people that manipulated what was a moderate centrist party to
they are doing the right thing. In Scotland, on 45%, we become this party of Brexit extremists. They booted out
demand a referendum, not to do what we want but to all the moderates; none of them is here now. There is no
ask the people if they want independence. But that is debate or discussion, or any sort of contradiction of the
not for the Brexiteers, oh no; on 43% they will do what views of hard Brexiteers any more, because they have
they want. The arrogance is massive on that side. booted all the moderates out. This is the new Conservative
consensus, and I hope that the party today in the
Bulldog Club is generous and full of largesse, and that
Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend makes a good and they very much enjoy it.
concise point. I want to return to some of these issues,
and I hope that he will come back in, because I think
that this is worth being aired, discussed and debated in Sir Desmond Swayne: My right hon. Friend the Member
this House. It is an important key issue—[Interruption.] for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) spoke of the gloom
I can tell that the high priest wants to come back in and doom on the other side of the Chamber, and I
again, and I will obviously indulge him. think that the hon. Gentleman put his finger on it in his
complaint about the hardness of this particular Brexit.
What was clear throughout the Committee stage was
Sir William Cash: The Maastricht rebellion took the harking back of Opposition Members to a previous
place in 1992-93, long before either UKIP or the Brexit Bill that did not make it through this House in December
party was even really thought of. of last year. It did not make it through this House
because those Members voted against the programme
Pete Wishart: There is a fascinating journal, account motion, and they now feel guilt for having delivered the
and book to be written about this, and I am looking very situation about which he complains, but which we
forward to the hon. Member’s memoirs after all this. rather regard as the intervention of providence.
I want to pay tribute to some of the other people who
have won today, in the great victory of this Brexit. I Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman.
know that the Conservatives will, uncharitably, not do I know he is tempting me to speak about the Labour
this, but somebody has to congratulate Nigel Farage. It party, but that is just cruelty. I will resist the opportunity
is his vision that has been realised today. Without Nigel to say a few words to Labour Members, other than: for
Farage, there would be no Brexit. Without the pressure goodness’ sake get your act together, because you have
that was put on the Conservative party from whatever to be an Opposition. Not one of their Back Benchers is
incarnation of his party existed at the time, there would standing to be called in this debate today, which shows
not be the hard Brexit that they are all celebrating how humble they have become in this whole debate.
today. Come on, Conservatives—give the man a peerage, However, I say to the right hon. Gentleman that it is a
for goodness’ sake! He, more than anybody else, deserves bit rich blaming a useless Labour party for sinking that
it. And wouldn’t it be comedy gold for a man who rails last Brexit deal, because it was the hard Brexiteers who
against unelected politicians to be given an unelected brought it down. They were prepared to sink their own
place in the legislature? Please do it, just for the comedy Prime Minister and reject a deal because of their ultimate
value. vision, objective and all-consuming obsession with the
hardest of hard Brexits, which is what is being delivered
We are not just passing a piece of legislation today.
today.
We are actually entering into a new age, a new epoch:
the age of hard Brexitism. Everything that this House
does from this point on will be informed and directed Alan Brown: It is ironic that the Conservatives are
by this new atmosphere, culture and direction of the now saying, “You should have voted for our crap deal,
United Kingdom. I am trying to think of a poster boy but now we’ve made the deal even crappier, so get it up
for the new hard Brexit age, and the only thing that ye.” Does that not sum it right up?
comes to my mind is the right hon. Member for Rayleigh
and Wickford (Mr Francois) in combat casuals flying a
Spitfire to the sound of hope and glory heading straight Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend has a very delicate use
to the ground because his aircraft has suffered engine of phrase, and I have to say that nothing could be put
failure. That is the image that comes to mind in the new more elegantly than that. That is well understood from
Brexit age, and God help us as we go forward. It is this side of the House.
viciously right-wing and isolationist, and takes no account The Brexit deal could have been anything. It could
of the views of anywhere else around the whole world have involved a customs union or single market membership.
today. It is this new age of hard Brexit that we are now It could have been Canada-plus-plus-plus or Norway-
entering into. minus-minus-minus, but it is none of those. It is the
671 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 672
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Pete Wishart] That is why yesterday, when the Scottish Parliament
was asked to agree to a legislative consent motion to
hardest of hard Brexits because nothing else was good allow the Government to progress and pursue this hard
enough for the Conservatives, and that is what is being Brexit, the Scottish Parliament overwhelmingly said no,
passed today. and only the rump of Scottish Conservatives in that
Parliament voted for it. Will that matter to this Government?
Angus Brendan MacNeil: Not only that; their victory Will that be listened to? Absolutely not. It will be
has been so total that it has also been a victory over rejected, ignored and disrespected. I say to Conservative
arithmetic. They know, or they should know, that their Members that that is what is driving the new demand
Brexit is going to damage GDP and economic growth for Scottish independence. We will no longer be ignored,
by 5% to 6%, and that even if they get a trade deal with disrespected, and rejected out of hand. That is why we
every country in the world, they can only make up 1.4% are back here with 48 Members. That is why we have
of that. America is only going to give them 0.2%, or a 80% of the vote. That is what the people of Scotland
thirtieth of the damage they are going to do. To make voted for.
up this damage, they are going to have to find 47 planets David Duguid rose—
populated with people as rich as Americans today. That
is the level of damage and arithmetical oversight that Pete Wishart: I am going to enjoy this intervention
the hard Brexiteers have achieved in their victory. Numbers from a representative of the Scottish Conservatives,
do not matter to a Tory party that was once obsessed who lost half their seats. Why did that happen?
with numbers. This is just the sweep of Brexit harking
back to the 19th century and probably to opium wars David Duguid: I just want to gently correct the hon.
and gunboat diplomacy. That is where their minds are Gentleman. I do enjoy hearing him speak, and we have
stuck, sadly. The unfortunate thing is that the rest of us been known to share a stage together, in fact, because I
across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland enjoy his entertainment that much. I will gently correct
are going to pay a very heavy price for their lunacy. what he may have said inadvertently. He said that 80%
of the vote in Scotland—
Pete Wishart: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his
very brief intervention. All I can say to him is that they Angus Brendan MacNeil: No, 80% of the seats.
couldn’t care less about the economy or about the
damage to the UK. They couldn’t care less about our David Duguid:—80% of the seats—[Interruption.]
relationship, about isolationism or about all the other Listen, I have absolutely no compunction about accepting
things that this Brexit does. The only thing they care that the SNP gained seats in Scotland during last month’s
about is their hard Brexit. That is the only thing that has UK general election. We lost some seats, but it was
underpinned their whole approach in the course of the ultimately a general election to form a Government in
past few years. That is the only thing they wanted. this place, not a general election in Scotland. Nicola
Nothing else mattered other than securing a hard Brexit, Sturgeon is not the Prime Minister. On the percentage
so there will be huge celebrations down the Bulldog of the vote, I gently say that 55% of people in Scotland
Club tonight and I hope the champagne tastes good. voted for Unionist parties, not for the SNP—[Interruption.]
Will we be celebrating in the White Heather Club in I have made my point.
Scotland, or here? Nobody bothered to ask me. Well,
no, we will not. We most certainly will not be celebrating Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman,
this Bill passing today. who is of course right that the SNP won only 80% of
the seats, and I am glad that that is on the record. I say
The Government may have won their hard Brexit, but ever so gently to him that it is all very well him standing
they have most definitely lost Scotland. Nothing could up and telling me to correct all that, but his party in
sum up the alienation of Scotland from the rest of the Scotland has one message—I do not expect him to
United Kingdom more than the passing of this Bill. dispute this—and all the signs in the fields of Perthshire
This Bill symbolises the difference between Scotland and Banff and Buchan and all the leaflets that went
and the rest of the UK. I sometimes think this House through every door said, “Vote Scottish Conservative to
forgets Scotland’s relationship with this Brexit disaster stop indyref 2.” All he needs to do is shake his head.
and chaos, so let me gently remind Conservative Members That was the main message.
what happened. One MP was voted from Scotland with
a mandate for the EU referendum, and one MP from David Duguid rose—
Scotland voted for the Bill that allowed a referendum to
take place. When Scotland was obliged to vote in an EU Pete Wishart: No, he should just let me finish, then I
referendum that it had nothing to do with, we voted will let him come back in. That was the main message
62% to remain. put out by the Scottish Conservatives at the general
Now, people may have thought, given all that has election. The result was that they lost more than half
happened, that Scotland’s voice would be accommodated, their Members of Parliament. They said, “Send Nicola
listened to and somehow taken account of—not a bit of Sturgeon a message,” and the Scottish people did. The
it. Every representation was rejected. Everything to try message they sent was, “We want to decide our own
to minimise the blow to a Scotland that wanted to stay future.” The hon. Gentleman must be a little humbler
in the European Union was ignored out of hand before about what happened. He must accept his defeat and
the ink was even dry. Everything that we brought forward understand the reason behind it because at some point—not
that said, “Listen. Maybe we have a different view today, next week, or next month—he will have to respect
about Brexit than the rest of you down here,” was Scottish democracy. He will have to say that it is up to
totally and utterly ignored and disrespected. the Scottish people to determine their own future.
673 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 674
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
David Duguid: On the subject of democracy, this years, so I hope that I can correct the record, because I
should be well known, but I point out to the House that have very little opportunity to do so. I have worked with
each and every SNP Member has two main jobs. One is the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union
to speak for their constituents, of which the SNP has and the Front-Bench team for several months in different
more because it won more seats. The other is to speak guises, and I pay tribute to him and his team for their
for their party. It is not necessarily their job, solely, to diligent professionalism. He has overseen a very difficult
speak for Scotland. The SNP does not represent Scotland. situation over the past six months.
I am just as much a Scottish MP. The hon. Gentleman This feels a little like Groundhog Day—not giving
asked me whether I accepted my defeat, but I won my another maiden speech but talking about this particular
seat. I am here with an increased majority, thank you subject. I recall being encouraged to leave Parliament
very much. by a different constituency when we were on this subject,
and I have now returned with a healthier majority while
Pete Wishart: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on we are still on this subject, and I appreciate that we can
that, but he really must accept what is happening in now get it done.
Scotland. Something dramatic is going on. I think all of
us agree that there will be another referendum at some If I may say a bit about my home, the seat I now
point, because things are totally and utterly—[Interruption.] represent is not just my constituency but my home—born
Conservative Members are saying no. Did my hon. and bred. Montgomeryshire is incredibly important to
Friends hear them? me and was important to my predecessor. It is an old
county of Wales and forms the gateway to mid-Wales,
Angus Brendan MacNeil: We heard them say no. covering an area from Welshpool over to Machynlleth,
which was the seat of the Welsh Parliament in days
Pete Wishart: We heard them say no, but whenever gone by, to Llanidloes and Llandinam. It is good to see
they say no to Scotland and say that they will deny my neighbours by my side, including my right hon.
Scottish democracy, the only thing that that does—this Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson)
is a note of caution to Conservative Members—is drive and my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and
support for Scottish independence. The more they say Radnorshire (Fay Jones). It is truly wonderful—other
no to us, the more we will assert our rights, and the idea Members across the House will feel the same—to represent
of Scottish independence will continue to grow and will somewhere that I call home.
overrun and consume them. There are issues—they will, of course, be pertinent to
My little bit of advice to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen this Bill, Mr Deputy Speaker—that I will look to champion,
opposite is to say, “Just get on with it.” Just give us that and it has been terrific over the past month to see so
independence referendum and acknowledge that we are many opportunities and ideas come to the fore as we
on a different trajectory to the hard Brexit UK that they settle the Brexit issue.
want. They can have their hard Brexit. If that is what I have been given many ideas by organisations, such
they want, and if they want an isolationist United as opening the Montgomeryshire canal to the network.
Kingdom, please have it. That is their choice and their The Welshpool and Llanfair railway campaign captured
democratic right. Nobody is preventing them from doing the spirit of both Montgomeryshire and this country,
that, and I will be the first person to say, “Good luck.” and it received the Queen’s award for voluntary service.
Let us hope they get on and make a success of it, but do This week—just to reinforce the fact that Powys and
not hold my country back, do not subsume my country Montgomeryshire are not complacent on any issue,
into what they are trying to achieve. We do not want it, despite our being the safest place in England and Wales—we
and we have told them that on numerous occasions. It is received the knife angel, which is touring the country to
over. Scotland will be an independent country, and the demonstrate and reinforce the message that we need to
sooner this House recognises that, the better. engage with the community on knife crime and other
I will finish now, because I realise that I have kept the serious crime to minimise it as much as we can.
House attention’s for long enough. The battle for hard I hope the House will forgive me for spending some
Brexit is over, and Conservative Members have won, time paying tribute Glyn Davies, my immediate predecessor,
but the battle for Scottish independence has just begun. who is a great man. He has 50 years of public service to
date, and it is not capped. I know Glyn and, in fact, I
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Craig was with him on the weekend as he continued his public
Williams. service. I am sure he will continue in some guise. I know
the House will miss him, but I can assure the House that
2.26 pm I will not miss him because he will continue to guide,
Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Thank you advise, inform and, I am sure, take part in Montgomeryshire
very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is good to see you life.
return to your place, as have I. I know that you will Glyn’s passion for representing his home, his passion
correct me if I say that I am making my maiden speech, for Welsh politics and his passion for his nation, Wales—and
but it feels a little like that. With your Welsh heritage, I for the Union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain
hope that you will allow me a little leeway to talk about and Northern Ireland, before my Celtic cousins start—
my new constituency and pay tribute to a person whom inspired me early in life, and he is one of the reasons I
we will all miss: my predecessor, Glyn Davies. got involved in politics. He is one of the reasons I stand
I wanted to make my non-maiden speech on the before the House again, representing my home seat.
Third Reading of this Bill, because I was reminded by a That other true son of Montgomeryshire, who I am
colleague that they had looked me up on TheyWorkForYou sure will either read or listen to this debate, can be very
and saw that I done little speaking for two and a half proud of what he has achieved, having been an Assembly
675 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 676
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Craig Williams] of my predecessors, such as Glyn Davies and Lord
Carlile. So many things have changed over the two and
Member, a councillor and a Member of Parliament. At a half years that I have not been here, but there are
his tender age, which I will not mention, he is fit and many similarities. It is good to see Lord Davies of
able. I will send the House’s good wishes to him. Gower in the Gallery, as it was a privilege to watch his
This Third Reading debate is a significant moment maiden speech in the other place yesterday. I am heartened
for the House and the country, and it presents me with to see him return favour.
an opportunity to talk about some of the issues I will So many things have changed, but there are some
seek to champion during my time as the Member of similarities. I am delighted to represent my home, and I
Parliament for Montgomeryshire. I represent one of the am delighted to take part in this important Third Reading
most rural seats in England and Wales—I would be debate. I pay tribute to all the parliamentarians on both
immediately corrected by my hon. Friend the Member sides of the House, the civil servants and the other
for Brecon and Radnorshire if I claimed it was the bodies that have got through what looked from the
biggest in England and Wales—and it has both agriculture outside, at times, like quite a challenging two and a half
and tourism, with the former being primarily affected years. I hope we can now move on, and I am glad to
by this Bill. have given my semi-maiden speech on Third Reading.
I was taken by the exchange at DExEU questions this
morning, when my right hon. Friend the Member for 2.36 pm
Central Devon (Mel Stride) spoke precisely about the
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Deputy
challenges and opportunities facing hilltop farmers as
Speaker, for the honour of calling me to give my maiden
we leave the EU. He spoke about how the Brexit vote
speech, especially on this European Union (Withdrawal
and bringing sovereign power back to this place, which
Agreement) Bill that has dominated our political life for
we are doing right now, will mean that we can do things
years and will dominate and define our country for a
differently. I am heartened to see us moving straightaway
generation or more. There could not be anything more
on our manifesto commitments on agricultural funding
important to speak about.
to 2024, and I will be working with the Assembly
Member for Montgomeryshire, Russell George—he is a I start by thanking God, and I start as I mean to go
Conservative Assembly Member, so I had better mention on by thanking the residents of Putney, Roehampton
him—and the Welsh Government to ensure that that and Southfields for putting their faith in me and for
funding and support continues and gives certainty to electing me to represent them. I also thank my family
farmers. for all their support.
Agriculture is important, but so is tourism. This Bill I pay tribute to my predecessor Justine Greening,
will now provide certainty. For those who have not who is held in very high respect for being a hard-working
visited Montgomeryshire, I give a special shout out to local MP. Many people told me during the campaign
Lake Vyrnwy. The private investment in the hotel and and before that she made their issues her own. She
the wider developments at Lake Vyrnwy will push on at championed local causes and, nationally, she championed
pace now that we have certainty on where this country the cause of social mobility. She represented our views
will be going next. That certainty on opening up on Brexit, even when it cost her politically. We can
infrastructure is important to a rural area. always have a few more independent-minded female
MPs, and I wish her and the Social Mobility Foundation
I will mention my right hon. Friend the Member for all the very best.
North Shropshire one last time because I want to work
with him on opening up the important Pant-Llanymynech Putney, Southfields and Roehampton are fantastic
bypass. I will continue apace so that Mr Deputy Speaker places to live and work. We have the best of urban
does not notice my getting that into this debate. London life, the river and brilliant green spaces. For any
new MP looking for their London home, I cannot
Finally, the Union is incredibly important to me. I imagine anywhere better. Please come to Putney.
realise that this is not a maiden speech and Members
We have a strong community. We have faith groups,
can intervene—I will tiptoe around it so that my SNP
residents associations, great pubs to meet up in and
colleagues will be kind—but the Union is important to
community organisations that bring people together,
Montgomeryshire and the Welsh Conservative party. It
including—I hope the House will forgive me for indulging
is important to think about the Union in relation to the
a few local organisations—the Putney Society; Regenerate
withdrawal agreement.
and Regenerate RISE; the Independent Food Aid Network;
When we joined the European Union, the United local food banks; Growhampton—doesn’t that sound
Kingdom’s powers on agricultural support were given fantastic?—Green the Grid; Abundance, which makes
to Brussels en bloc as we joined a bigger single market. cider; the tidy towpath group; the Roehampton cultural
We are now leaving, and we will be forming a single centre; the over-60s lunch club in Roehampton; and
market between the four nations of the United Kingdom. over 20 rowing clubs and the most famous boat race in
It is incredibly important to the farmers, businesses and the whole world.
residents I represent in Montgomeryshire that there is a I have been running a local community centre for
united and regulated framework that allows us to keep three years, so I know how important and how threatened
our porous border between England and Wales and to community spaces are, and I will continue to champion
continue as one of the most successful Unions in the them. Clement Attlee is one of Putney’s most famous
world. former residents. He was born in Putney in 1883, when
I will continue to champion the role of Wales, as my it was in Surrey, and he went on to be Labour Prime
nation, in the Union of the United Kingdom of Great Minister from 1945 to 1951. He also went into politics
Britain and Northern Ireland. I will build on the work because of his experience running a London community
677 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 678
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centre, so we have much in common. His Labour staff have left and returned to other EU countries, and
Government founded the welfare state—both the NHS people whose businesses have been damaged and even
and the benefit system—which defines us a country. To closed—and we have not even had Brexit yet. We know
this day, it is one of the jewels in our crown, which I will the risks. We know that Brexit will not be done for many
make it a priority to defend. years, so my mandate to protest against the harm that it
But the current welfare state is failing families in my will do is certainly not over.
constituency. One in three children is in poverty and The Government have made big promises over the
30% of families in Roehampton live in overcrowded days of the debate, which I do not believe, given their
homes, most of them hard-working families. More than track record in the past nine years, but I hope they
3,000 children in Wandsworth borough are homeless, prove me wrong. For a start, there are promises that
living in temporary accommodation. The Alton Estate there will be no regression on environmental standards.
and Putney Vale include areas that are among the most We must have a UK version of dynamic alignment on
deprived 10% in the country in terms of income and environmental policies. I know that the Government do
housing. It is not all about the boat race. Two of the not want dynamic alignment because it means that we
most important marks of the Government’s success or are in hock to the EU, but there must be a UK version,
failure in the next five years must be whether they whereby we do not end up with zombie policies and stay
reduce child poverty and end the need for food banks. backward while the EU moves forward. We must always
Before I turn to the subject of the debate—I know vie to keep outdoing the EU on climate action. We must
that we are talking about Brexit; I will get there—I want phase out diesel and petrol cars, bring in eco-friendly
briefly to highlight some important issues for Putney homes and achieve 100% clean energy. I hope that all
and the country. The first is the environment. This must those policies will be in the upcoming Environment Bill.
be the climate Parliament. I have worked with aid The measure must have teeth to match the European
agencies around the world, and in Bangladesh I have sat Court of Justice.
down with communities of women whose jobs, livelihoods There have also been promises that workers’ rights
and ways of life have been devastated by rising sea will be retained so that we will not have a race to the
water as a result of climate change. It is already happening. bottom. I have worked with countries around the world
I have also met parents, like me, who know that our on trade negotiations at the World Trade Organisation
London children have permanently damaged lungs because and I have seen, time and again, how free trade fails
of our air pollution. In both situations, it is always the communities and is especially bad for women. We need
poorest who are most affected. We need urgent action to know the impact, including the gender impact, of
on climate change. We cannot wait five years. future trade deals.
Housing is a major issue. Overcrowding, uncertainty There have been promises not to have a no-deal
for private renters, leaseholders’ rights, lack of social Brexit, but we could still face that at the end of the year.
housing and homelessness must be a priority for the We are just pushing it down the line. There have been
next five years. promises of rights to stay for EU nationals, with yet
more paperwork and checks for pre-settled and settled
Youth services and youth centres are closing across status and issues that are not yet resolved.
our country. More than 700 have closed in the last nine
years. Together with school cuts, that takes away There have been promises that the rights of vulnerable
opportunities for our young people. Roehampton youth refugees—children, whose rights have been removed
centre was closed just last summer. from the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement)
Bill—will be enshrined in the immigration Bill. Why
Adult social care is beyond crisis. It came up time and take reuniting children with their families out of the
again in all my seven hustings during the election campaign. Bill? I am as flabbergasted and perplexed as everyone
It needs urgent action. Joining up the NHS and community else on the Opposition Benches. Families belong together.
care services is essential. We do not need just a cross-party The policy had cross-party agreement. It is not many
wish list, but urgent action. I know that that was in the children. I have seen the conditions in which young
Queen’s Speech, and we will have to see what the result refugee children live and I have seen the traffickers
will be. circling and preying on them. Those children are amazing.
The NHS, crime, transport, daily commuter misery, My children often cannot find their way from the table
saving our high street, international development and to the dishwasher to put their plates away, but those
saving the Department for International Development, children have found their way across Europe to other
not merging it with the Foreign and Commonwealth countries, desperate to return to their families here, who
Office, are all issues that I will return to in future are just as desperate to see them. Yet we have closed the
debates. door on them. I do not understand why and I hope that
it is not a sign of the kind of country we are going to
And so to Brexit. It was the main issue of the election
become.
in Putney: 74% of Wandsworth residents voted to
remain—an even higher figure than in Scotland. More There have also been promises that the NHS is not
than one in 10 constituents in Putney are from other for sale to the US. Well, we’ll see. The Bill is a huge
EU countries and are a very welcome part of our power grab, with the Government running scared of
community. I believe that Brexit is an act of monumental scrutiny and transparency, yesterday rejecting all the
self-harm. In Putney, I have spoken to people who have amendments that would have meant that we as elected
burst into tears on the doorstep, not just from seeing Members rightly saw the aims, objectives and progress
me, but because of their heightened anxiety about their of negotiations.
rights and status as EU citizens, no matter how many We are leaving, but our role now is to define what
years they have been here. I have met NHS workers who leaving means: what our values are and what nationalism
are struggling to cope at work because so many other means. There is a high risk that racism and discrimination
679 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 680
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Fleur Anderson] Northern Ireland, Wales and England, I do understand,
for reasons not far removed from my reasons for wanting
will be given permission by the Bill. I have seen it the UK not to be subjugated to the European Union,
happen. It happened straight after the referendum and why the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire
it has happened since. It is therefore important to say and his colleagues indulge this passion—understandable
here, in this place, that we may be leaving the EU, but but wrong—for leaving the United Kingdom. I understand
we are proud of our place in Europe and the world. We where they are coming from, so to that extent I appreciate
must be a society that is ambitious for everyone, welcomes some of the remarks he made, but I disagree fundamentally
diversity and is open to all. We must both take pride in regarding the outcome they desire. It would lead to a lot
our country and define that pride as being more of trouble for Scotland were it to leave the United
internationalist than ever. That will make us all stronger. Kingdom, as the referendum demonstrated.
I thank the people of Putney again for electing me. It The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill is
is such an honour. I promise that I will work hard every not just about Brexit. It is primarily about the United
minute of every day to serve and represent you. Kingdom and our future. The reason why we adopted
the position we took on Maastricht, and later on Nice,
2.48 pm Amsterdam and Lisbon, and in the debate of the past
few years and on the referendum, hinges on one simple
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): First, Mr Deputy principle: the ability of the people of this country to
Speaker, I congratulate you on your successful govern themselves through their elected representatives
re-appointment. Thank you for everything you have on the basis of their free choice in general elections. We
done for us in the past. are not little Englanders or trying somehow to make
I welcome the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) our country less democratic. We fought this battle for
to the House of Commons. Her speech was very measured. democracy and the rights of our own people, our own
I do not agree with much of it, as she will expect, but it voters. That is why I am delighted that we now have a
is a pleasure to have her in the House. I worked extremely significant majority and will be able to put into effect
closely with her predecessor, Justine Greening. The the right of the British people to govern themselves
hon. Lady may not know this, but the International through a range of policies, unconstrained by the European
Development (Gender Equality) Act 2014, which I Union and the European Commission.
introduced as a private Member’s Bill, got through
despite being 16th in the ballot largely because of the
support I had from her predecessor, as well as Opposition Angus Brendan MacNeil: The argument the hon.
Members and many others, including Glenys Kinnock Gentleman is making about voters getting who they
and Mariella Frostrup. Justine Greening put real effort vote for and governing themselves is pertinent in Scotland.
and determination into getting the Bill through and it His party have been rejected by 75% of the people of
was a real privilege for me to work with her. The Scotland. We have an unelected Tory Government
purpose of the Bill was to make sure that women and governing Scotland. Surely he sees the justice of being
children in the third world and developing countries able to ask the Scottish people whether they want to
were protected against female genital mutilation and continue with a Government that 75% of them have
things of that sort. In saying all that, I want to make it rejected, and what they want to do about the European
clear that there is a degree of continuity of some sort Union, where 62% of them want to remain.
between the hon. Lady’s speech and mine, although I
have to dissociate myself from remarks of hers on Sir William Cash: If the people of Scotland ever were
which I will not comment right now. to obtain independence and stay in the European Union,
I always enjoy speeches by the hon. Member for the extent to which they would be subjugated in a range
Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart)—they are of areas—fishing and many others—would become
such fun. He comes at us 100% and there is never any very apparent to them. That would be extremely damaging
let-up. I pointed out that we Maastricht rebels—I had to the Scottish economy. Through the qualified majority
the honour to lead that rebellion in 1992-93—acted as votes of other countries, Scotland would find that, as a
we did because for us it was about democracy and the relatively small country, the experience would not be at
benefits that will now come to us as we leave the all advantageous.
European Union. The European Union was going to
take the democratic decision making of this country
Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Is it not so
and hand it over to what was, in effect, a European
nice, after so much anguish over the past three years,
government. As I said yesterday, parliamentary sovereignty
that tonight we are at last delivering on the result of this
and democracy run together. We are not “hard Brexiteers”;
referendum, a democratic vote that we are now respecting?
we are democrats. We are people who believe that this
country should be governed by the people, that people
should be governed by themselves, and I would have Sir William Cash: I so much agree with what my hon.
thought that SNP Members, above all others, understood Friend has said, because he has been with us right the
that. way through the passage of this over the past decade
and more. People on this side of the House have fought,
Angus Brendan MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman sometimes against the establishment, in order to achieve
give way? this objective. I can only thank the British people with
all my heart for the decision they have taken. We have
Sir William Cash: In a minute. It may surprise the been the catalysts. We have tried to present the arguments.
hon. Gentleman to hear that, while I am a fervent If the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire is
believer in the United Kingdom, which includes Scotland, right at all, it is about the fact that there has been a
681 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 682
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
victory in the general election: the British people have will never apologise for saying it: the decisions were
spoken and they have supported the idea of leaving the taken for democratic reasons. That is why we have
EU, and we will do so accordingly on 31 January. ended up getting back our sovereignty, which we abdicated
I wish to make a further point. The decision to leave in 1971, after which we gradually gave up the veto. We
was taken by the British people, but not on a party will now be able to govern ourselves. It is a great tribute
political basis. The argument in this House always to the British people, and to the Members of Parliament
gravitates around party politics, but the decision in the who were returned in the election, that they will, through
referendum was taken by the British people in their the majority we now have and with our Prime Minister,
individual homes; at breakfast or on the night before guarantee that this country will have a bright and
they sat around and talked to one another, asking, effective future.
“What are we going to do tomorrow?” They made that
decision but then found that remainer MPs, whether on 3.1 pm
the Opposition Benches or even on our Benches, were
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD):
repudiating the decision that the individual voters had
Like others have done, may I welcome you back to your
made, whether they came from Labour, Liberal Democrat
restored position in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker? We
or, more likely, Conservative constituencies. They deeply
very much look forward to your presence moderating
resented the fact that they had decided, with their
our proceedings in the years to come.
families, to go to the ballot box to vote to leave the EU
in that referendum and then found, to their intense I congratulate the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur
annoyance, fury and disappointment, that their Member Anderson) on her maiden speech, which was a very
of Parliament had used the position they had in this accomplished contribution. There are a number of
House to frustrate the decision that the people had conventions and courtesies that need to be observed,
taken. That is why so many Labour Members lost their but, as well as managing to observe them, the hon. Lady
seats. People in this House did not appreciate the fact had something of substance and significance to say. I
that in Labour leave marginals—in particular, in places am sure we look forward to hearing her future contributions
north of Coventry in coal and steel communities—the in the House.
European Coal and Steel Community and the massive A number of contributors to this debate have spoken
subsidies given to the other countries had deprived about the way in which the tone of the debate has
people of their livelihoods, with much of the collapse of changed in the past few days, and that is a fair point to
the steel and coal industry being driven by the anti- make. Some of that change in tone relates to the inevitability
competitive nature of the European Coal and Steel of the fact that the Bill will gain its Third Reading
Community framework. If we were to take a map of the tonight. Another quite remarkable aspect is that there
UK and superimpose upon it the coal and steel has been, if anything, an even greater inflation of the
communities, we would see a direct correlation with the claims made about what will be possible. On that, time
decisions taken in the general election, when people will tell.
drove out Labour Members of Parliament because they Listening to the speech from the right hon. Member
were not doing what voters wanted them to do. They for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who was present
wanted to leave the EU, and the Labour Members who until a minute or two ago, I was struck by what he said
were driven out had refused to allow them to determine about the fishing industry and the opportunities that
their own constituency and national interest. That is would be open to it outside the common fisheries
where the problem lies. The Labour party simply cannot policy. I have heard him make that speech many times
bring itself, even now, to understand the feelings of the over the years. It would, of course, have been a done
people north of Coventry and in other parts of the deal had the Government led by the right hon. Member
country who found that their own Member of Parliament for Maidenhead (Mrs May) done what they said they
had let them down. were going to do and put the UK’s removal from the
There was a simple reason for the referendum: it was common fisheries policy in the withdrawal agreement
clear that the collusion between the two Front-Bench and not in the political declaration. Had that been the
teams in 1992-93 would lead to our having to stay in the case, we would be looking at an exit from the common
European Union and accept the Maastricht treaty. That fisheries policy at the end of the month. Of course, they
was what the referendum was all about. We now have a did not do that, despite their promise. They did not do it
huge opportunity, in a completely new environment because, frankly, they did not have the political will to
where we take control of our own laws in this House in do it.
accordance with proper democratic principles, to create The removal of the United Kingdom from the common
a new global trading relationship to ensure that we are fisheries policy remains in the political declaration. It is
able not only to govern ourselves but to work in not in the agreement that was negotiated by the Prime
co-operation with other countries on our own terms, Minister either. Although we have never heard the
not on the terms that were laid down by the European reason why, I presume that there was not the political
Union. I look to the Secretary of State in the full will to put it in the withdrawal agreement. As far as the
knowledge that he and the Prime Minister, and any claims made on behalf of Brexit regarding the future of
other Ministers involved in developing policies on the the fishing industry are concerned, we shall have to wait
European Union over the next year or two, will do so and see. It will require the political will to deliver these
on our terms and conditions and not those imposed promises, probably at the expense of commitments made
upon us by the European Union. to other communities and sectors.
This is a great moment in our democratic history;
furthermore, it is a great tribute to the British people, David Duguid: The right hon. Gentleman and I obviously
who listened to the arguments that were presented to share a lot of interests in the fishing industry, as he has
preserve their democracy. I have said this before and I one of the largest ports in Scotland—but not the largest—in
683 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 684
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[David Duguid] might end for those in the Conservative party and their
psychodrama, but with this Brexit coming—and there
his constituency. Does he not agree that by virtue of is no good Brexit—the anguish is just beginning for an
leaving the EU, we have no option but to leave the CFP? awful lot of people outside this Chamber.
We leave the EU, we leave the common fisheries policy—no
ifs, no buts. Mr Carmichael: I fear that the hon. Gentleman may
well be right on that. As I said in relation to the fishing
Mr Carmichael: That is absolutely the case, and I industry, time will eventually tell. I fear, as I say, that he
think the hon. Gentleman knows me well enough to is probably right. The worst of it is that I really hope he
know that he will never get me to defend the common is not, because the people who will suffer are not the
fisheries policy. But what follows thereafter will be people sitting in here but those in the crofts, in the
down to the political decisions made by this Government hill farms and in the fishing communities around his
and others, and to whether they have the political will to constituency and mine.
deliver the things that they have promised. He will Another reason we consider this to be a bad Bill is
remember the damage that was done to his party by a that it is another step in the walk that the Government
previous generation of Conservative Ministers who, at are taking away from commitments they have previously
the time of our accession to the EEC in 1975, regarded given on environmental protections, labour rights, food
the fishing industry as expendable. That is why the standards, and—worst of all, in a really quite mean-minded
promises become ever more extravagant, but the more step—the protections that would be given to refugee
extravagant they are, the greater the consequences will children. If ever there were an illustration of the way in
be if they are not kept. which we risk diminishing our standing on the world
The Liberal Democrats will vote against the Bill on stage, that is most surely it.
Third Reading, because we believe that this is a bad deal
As we have heard, the Secretary of State’s Department
that risks the future integrity of the United Kingdom as
is due to be wound up after the end of the month, but
a single unitary state, principally and most immediately
there is no doubting that even after that—even after
because it risks the possibility of leaving Northern
31 December—Brexit will continue to be a political
Ireland subject to different regulatory arrangements
phenomenon that will have a dominant effect on our
from the rest of the United Kingdom. That was something
politics for years to come. I make this plea today to
against which the former Secretary of State for Scotland,
those on the Treasury Bench: even if there is not to be a
the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale
Department for it to shadow, this House should continue
and Tweeddale (David Mundell), warned, along with
to have a Select Committee to look at the nature of the
Ruth Davidson, the then leader of the Scottish
impact that Brexit has on our economy and our society.
Conservatives. Those warnings were good and the former
Prime Minister was wise to heed them, but the current The mantra on which the Government won their
Prime Minister has ignored them. If after 31 December majority was that they would “get Brexit done”. The
we do find ourselves in the situation I have described, Prime Minister told us that he had an “oven-ready”
the future of the United Kingdom as a unitary state will deal. I think that to describe it as oven-ready was
be that much more bleak—and that is quite apart from actually untypically understated for the Prime Minister.
the division and discord that we have heard mooted Many of us on the Opposition Benches see it in fact as
from the SNP Benches today. being more half-baked than merely oven-ready. Ultimately,
I am also concerned that this deal very much leaves however, it is a deal that is going to leave us poorer and
open the possibility of a no-deal Brexit at the end of more isolated on the world stage, and it will affect us all.
2020. In fact, the inclusion of clause 33 makes it that Like many in this House, I am the first generation of
much more likely. My views on a no-deal Brexit are my family to have had the opportunity to come here
formed and reinforced by the businesses that come and and to serve my community in this way. I did that
talk to me. I think of one significant food-producing because I was given opportunities principally by access
company in Orkney that directly employs 23 people, to higher education, which I and my sisters all had. As a
which may not sound like a great deal, but it is also an result of those opportunities, I have been able to develop
important part of the supply chain for farming in whatever talents I have had. It grieves me enormously
Orkney. Farming, of course, is the staple that keeps our that the opportunities that we will now pass on to my
economy in the Northern Isles stable and growing. That sons—the next generation of my family—will be lesser
company tells me that for the past 20 years it has done than those that we inherited. It is for that reason that we
everything that any Government would have asked it to. shall vote against this Bill on Third Reading.
As a food producer, it has not gone for the low end of
the market, but for the top—the niche market and the 3.12 pm
high-quality produce. Part of the reason that it went for
that high-end product is that it was able to export. If its David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
exports are now going to be put at a competitive (Con): The European Union was a subject of enormous
disadvantage as a consequence of tariffs coming from a interest to my predecessor as Member of Parliament for
no-deal Brexit, the future of those 23 jobs and the Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, Nick Hurd, and indeed
farms around Orkney that supply the company will be to his father, Douglas Hurd, who served this House
bleak to say the very least. with distinction and was the Foreign Secretary who
took the United Kingdom into the Maastricht treaty
Angus Brendan MacNeil: The right hon. Gentleman through discussions that we have heard a great deal
is making a point that pertains to my community in Na about in the course of the debate on this Bill. It was my
h-Eileanan an Iar as well. I heard Conservative voices great pleasure to work over many years with Nick as a
saying that today the anguish will end. The anguish local councillor in the constituency. I always found him
685 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 686
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
to be someone who was hugely engaged and passionate people will recognise that those provisions have long
about the interests of his constituents. I have been very been seen—in the case of the United Kingdom, because
struck by how hon. and right hon. Members of this of our geography—as an exploitable route for traffickers
House on all sides, in all parties, have fed back what a to create the opportunity of family reunion and encourage
pleasure it was to have him as a colleague, and I am sure people to consign vulnerable people, sometimes children,
we all wish him well as he moves on to new challenges. to the backs of lorries and to dinghies across the
It has been a great honour to be elected Member of channel in an attempt to open a family reunion route.
Parliament for the constituency of Ruislip, Northwood We hear Members talking with concern about the hostile
and Pinner, where I have been a councillor since 2002. environment, but I think we have seen in the past few
Among the many characteristics of that outer London months that there are few environments more hostile
suburb is its long history as a place of settlement for than those when it comes to the life and wellbeing of
those who have sought refuge in our country from vulnerable refugees.
persecution elsewhere. In particular, we have very large The second reason that we need to be pleased that
communities of those Jewish people who fled to the those amendments have been rejected is the issue at the
United Kingdom during the second world war and heart of family reunion provisions, which is parental
those Polish service personnel who came to this country responsibility. It has been said by many Members, and
to join our armed forces in that period and who it is said a great deal in the media, that we want to
subsequently settled and are still very significantly reunite children with their families. But those of us who
represented among our local population today. have experience of those provisions have found that, in
The constituency is part of the London Borough of practice, what tends to happen is that young people are
Hillingdon, of which I remain the deputy leader for brought to the United Kingdom to be linked up with a
another few days. Hillingdon is distinctive, among other distant cousin—maybe a teenager—and they almost
things, for the fact that it is a gateway authority—one of immediately become an unaccompanied asylum-seeking
the ports of entry into the United Kingdom—by virtue child, and therefore in the care system of this country.
of the fact that we have Heathrow airport. Since the That really links to the third reason, which is that
2003 Hillingdon judgment, which clarified the legal young refugees who are in the European Union are
responsibilities that local authorities in this country already within countries that have child protection systems
have under the Children Act 1989 and the Children that are very similar or equivalent to—in some cases
(Leaving Care) Act 2000 for unaccompanied young better than—our own. The arrangements that the European
people in this country, it has been an area of great Union, supported strongly by the United Kingdom, has
personal interest for me because of the impact on my in place, in particular with Turkey but also with other
home area. For the past decade, I have had the privilege countries around the middle east and north Africa area,
of leading the national work across local government mean that there is usually a very real prospect of reuniting
on the resettlement into the United Kingdom of refugees those young people with those with parental
and, in particular, child refugees, alongside politicians responsibility—either mum or dad, or at least close
from all the nations of the United Kingdom and family members—who are in a refugee camp in the
representing all the political parties that are found in system in one of those countries. So it is going to be
those nations. Over that period, we have seen more than extremely rare that the best interest test will be passed in
a doubling in the arrival rates of child refugees into the demonstrating that someone is better coming to a distant
care of local authorities, and we have seen our Government cousin who cannot look after them in the UK, rather
play an ever more active role alongside the UN High than being reunited with mum and dad who may be in a
Commissioner for Refugees, with schemes such as the refugee camp in Jordan or, indeed, in Turkey.
vulnerable persons relocation scheme from Syria and In conclusion, our local authorities in the United
the vulnerable children’s relocation scheme. Kingdom have long battled with the consequences of
When I turn to clause 37 of the Bill, which has been the exploitation by traffickers of some weaknesses in
the subject of comment and attempted amendments our border system, and they do a remarkable job in
during its passage, it is clear that issues around the challenging circumstances when we look at the outcomes
resettlement of vulnerable children are very much in the that those children and young people go on to achieve.
minds of many Members of this House. But it is vital The UK has a huge reservoir of good will, and that
that we recognise the strength of both the Government’s good will is reflected in the actions of both this Government
and the United Kingdom’s position when it comes to and previous Governments when it comes to support
ensuring in practice the safety and wellbeing of refugee for child refugees, but our communities expect, in order
children. Border policy is, and has always been, a national to maintain that good will, that there will be robust,
competence, not one of the European Union. It is effective, efficient and just arrangements that minimise
absolutely right that the opportunity to fully debate the risks to children. Clause 37 of this Bill, as proposed
these issues will come in due course, when an immigration by the Government, opens the possibility of such
Bill comes before the House. But those of us closer to arrangements when the immigration Bill comes forward.
the sharp end of refugee resettlement will welcome the It is in practice a more compassionate and more pragmatic
rejection of the amendments to clause 37, and I will way forward on this issue than anything that I have
briefly explain why. heard proffered by the Opposition. It is one of many
The family reunion provisions are only relevant to a reasons to support this Bill, and I commend that clause
very tiny minority and to those children who are already to this House and to all Members with an interest in
in the care of authorities in other European countries. refugee children.
Those of us who had the opportunity to visit the Jungle Notwithstanding the overwhelming numbers on this
camp in Calais and see the traffickers circling like side of the House, many of us are listening with close
sharks among nearly 10,000 vulnerable and destitute attention to the points that are being made across this
687 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 688
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[David Simmonds] have been in power for so long that it is easy to forget
that they haven’t been. What I want to say—let me say
debate and we will be pressing to ensure that, when this this correctly—is that what I witnessed over my 10 years
Bill is passed today, it is not just the end of something, in the European Parliament was Conservative MEPs
but the start of a new, constructive and positive relationship constantly trying to water down the positions on the
with our allies in the European Union. environment that the European Parliament was taking
and therefore—
3.22 pm
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): Will the hon. Lady
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): give way?
Congratulations, Mr Deputy Speaker, on your restoration
to the Chair. I am pleased to speak after the new hon. Caroline Lucas: Not until I have finished answering
Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David the previous intervention. What I want to say in response
Simmonds). I wish I could say that I agreed with more to the first person who intervened on me, and who I
of what he said. I do not for a moment doubt his have not yet finished answering, is that my concerns
personal commitment to refugee children, as I hope he about what will happen to environmental standards
will not doubt my own, but I think we have very under the withdrawal Bill are not being dictated by
different solutions to how we would address their plight. dogma; they are being dictated by my experience over
Frankly, I think our country has an awful lot more to 10 years in the European Parliament, watching Conservative
do to honour our obligations to refugees, and in particular MEPs constantly trying to water down environmental
to child refugees, than perhaps was reflected in his regulations.
words this afternoon.
I want to say a few words about the withdrawal Vicky Ford rose—
agreement that is to be passed, I fear, later this afternoon,
and I want to summarise some of the reasons why I will Caroline Lucas: As the hon. Lady is a former MEP, I
be voting against it. It does still contain this trapdoor to happily give way to her.
no deal at the end of this year, and despite everything
that has been said from the Government Front Bench, I Vicky Ford: As a former Conservative MEP and as a
fail to understand why they are so doggedly remaining former member of the environment Committee of the
with this 11-month period—an entirely arbitrary period— European Parliament and a former Chair of a Committee
and saying that that is the period within which they of the European Parliament, may I completely refute
want to have agreed a new trade agreement. The President the allegations the hon. Lady has just made? It was
of the Commission said just yesterday that that is not Conservative MEPs who led the negotiations on the
going to yield the kind of deep agreement that apparently Paris climate change conference that led to the global
the Prime Minister wants, so it is very hard to see how commitment to deal with the emissions that are threatening
this is actually in the best interests of the country. our planet, and it will be a Conservative British Government
Secondly, I worry deeply about the race to the bottom who will lead the negotiations for the next global climate
on social and environmental standards, which I think is change conference that will save our planet.
at the heart of this withdrawal agreement. We heard
again yesterday, when we raised these in the debate, that Caroline Lucas: The hon. Lady doth protest a little
there is no guarantee against regression on environmental too much, because the reality is that again and again I
standards. There is certainly no dynamic alignment saw the briefings being provided by the Conservative
being suggested. Indeed, I fear we will see a wrecking party to Conservative MEPs, and they were all about
ball being taken to the precious environmental standards watering down key environmental legislation. I was the
in particular, which we have been absolutely dependent rapporteur, for example, for a piece of legislation around
on our negotiations in the EU to achieve. The Prime illegally logged timber, and I can assure the hon. Lady
Minister has of course famously said that Brexit is an that Tory MEPs and many others were watering it
opportunity to, in his words, “regulate differently”. down.
When he says that he wants to regulate differently, I find
it very hard to believe that he actually means improving Vicky Ford rose—
regulations when it comes to the environment in particular.
Caroline Lucas: I am not going to give way to the
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): The hon. Lady is hon. Lady again.
raising two very important issues—their importance is,
I think, recognised in all quarters of the House. I just Vicky Ford: Will the hon. Lady give way?
wonder on what she is basing these fears. Is it from what
she has heard in debates or read in our party manifesto
Caroline Lucas: No, because this is not a very constructive
or in anything else? On what is she basing these fears,
conversation. I am very sure about the position that I
other than shroud-waving and her own prejudice?
am taking.
Caroline Lucas: I am basing my fears on the fact that,
for example, I was a Member of the European Parliament Vicky Ford: Will the hon. Lady give way?
for 10 years and regularly saw how the British Government,
or not necessarily the Government, but Conservative MEPs, Caroline Lucas: No, the hon. Lady can sit down.
were the ones who were watering down. [Interruption.] The fourth thing I want to say is that, as well as being
I appreciate it was a Labour Government; I misspoke. I deeply concerned, on the basis of evidence, about the
meant—[Interruption.] It feels as if the Conservatives very real risks of the Conservatives watering down
689 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 690
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
environmental legislation, there is the issue that many element of our lives, from the food we eat, to our
have returned to again and again today: the cruel and environment and labour standards to the protection of
hostile position on refugees in general and on child public services such as the NHS, yet it is staggering that
refugees in particular. Frankly, I thought that what MPs have less of a say over trade agreements than far
happened yesterday, watching the Tory MPs troop through narrower policy initiatives. Last, but not least, we should
the Lobby to vote against provisions that would have have had a comprehensive impact assessment that is
protected child refugees, was quite shameful. available for proper review. So far, the Government have
I want to focus on parliamentary sovereignty—an completely failed in their duty to assess the impact of
issue that should be, I would have imagined, a concern Brexit. In the amendment that I moved yesterday, I
to all of us in this place. Surely we ought to be able to proposed an independent body to consider the impact
agree that, irrespective of our very different positions of any new deal on climate change, human rights and
on Brexit or even on environmental standards, we do the economy. It seems a great shame to me that that
want a voice and a say for MPs in this place. For almost amendment was defeated.
four years we have heard that leaving the EU would All I am asking for is that we should have our
mean taking back control, and yet it is now clearer than democracy upheld, so that MPs can do their jobs and
ever that that control will not rest with communities, hold Government to account. Significantly, the other
regions or even Parliament, but will be almost entirely place did pass an amendment to the Trade Bill in the
in the hands of No. 10 Downing Street. previous Session, which would have given Parliament a
For this Government, democratic scrutiny is apparently say over post-Brexit trade deals, including on transparency
a mere inconvenience, so MPs are to be denied a say during negotiations, a vote on the mandate and a final
over our most important post-Brexit trading relationship. vote on the deal. The other place seems to be doing a
So let us be very clear: this is an Executive power grab. better job of standing up for all our interests than we
Indeed, ironically given all the rhetoric about taking are doing here ourselves. We should not be letting this
back control, this withdrawal agreement Bill gives MPs go through without parliamentary scrutiny. We should
in this place less of a say over our trade with the EU not be setting a precedent for Parliament to be denied
than Members of the European Parliament will have in scrutiny, not just of this agreement but of future trade
Brussels, who have a guaranteed vote on trade deals as agreements too.
well as sight of the pre-negotiation mandate.
The final point that I want to make is that clearly,
Trade agreements may not always be headline-grabbing under our rotten electoral system, the Government won
news, but they are very far from just being a dry subject the election with a majority of 80 seats. However, that
about tariffs and taxes. They now have a profound does not reflect the public’s views on the deal, and,
impact on our efforts to tackle the climate crisis, and on indeed, on the confirmatory referendum. I accept
our food standards, workers’ rights and vital public that under this electoral system they have a majority
services. Our future relationship with the EU should be of 80, but that gives them particular responsibilities—
open to scrutiny and approval by this Parliament. We [Interruption.] One of which might be to actually listen
should be able to prevent the setting of a dangerous to what someone on the Opposition Benches is saying.
precedent of MPs being denied any oversight not just of A majority of 80 gives the Government particular
this agreement but of future post-Brexit trade deals, responsibilities. Those responsibilities are to address the
such as that to be concluded with the US. Significantly, very many reasons that people voted to leave the EU. I
as we heard yesterday, the Prime Minister’s previous have been travelling around the country listening to
EU withdrawal agreement did include much-needed leave voters on the many reasons they had for voting
provisions for parliamentary scrutiny. They were outlined leave. Of course, yes, some of them did indeed vote that
in clause 31. They gave MPs oversight of the negotiating way because they have fundamental disagreements with
objectives and a vote on the final deal, and required the EU, but many, many people I spoke to voted leave
regular reporting during negotiations. That clause is because they wanted to send a clear message to all of us
conspicuous by its absence from the new Bill. here.
There is to be no parliamentary scrutiny of the future
relationship with the EU, which is by far our largest The message they wanted to send was that they
trading partner. Indeed, any transparency will be entirely believe the status quo is intolerable. To that extent, they
dependent on the good will of the Executive. We should were right. The social contract is broken, and the power
have had an obligation for the Government to publish game is rigged. The referendum outcome was a resounding
their negotiating objectives. They should have been radical rejection of the status quo, of an economy that
unable to proceed with those negotiations until they brutally fails so many, forcing parents to use food banks
had been approved by this House. We should have had to feed their children, demonising immigrants and
real transparency during negotiations. Texts should be condemning us to climate breakdown. It was also a
published after each round of negotiations, giving MPs powerful and furious comment on our broken democracy.
the opportunity to review progress. The Government All too often, it feels to people—particularly those
have often sought to reassure the public and who are more distant from London—that politics is
parliamentarians alike about trade negotiations, but something that gets done to them rather than by them,
unless we have full transparency those reassurances are or with them. Brexit laid bare the extent to which our
worth nothing. governance structures are derelict. When citizens were
We should have had a meaningful vote on the deal deprived of a credible representative power that clearly
itself and, of course, it should have been on an amendable belongs to or is accountable to them, it led to anger with
motion before any final deal was ratified. The lack of the most remote authority of all. The EU was effectively
scrutiny afforded to trade agreements is a relic of a blamed for the UK’s structural elitism and held responsible
bygone era. Today, trade agreements permeate every as the source of all powerlessness.
691 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 692
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Caroline Lucas] Regulatory alignment is a complex system of product
standards, safety standards and type approval processes.
The Bill shows no sign of giving us back control, or I want to speak about that as I believe that some of the
crucially, of giving back control to many of the people rhetoric on legislation has been unhelpful. We can all
who voted leave in good faith, expecting that that was remember talk of bendy bananas, curved cucumbers
what it was going to be about. There is no sense here and unhappy hoovers, but in reality, the vast majority
that there will be any change to the settlement on the of regulation facilitates trading safely and fairly, especially
way we are governed. There is no sense that this within the manufacturing sector, where international
Government will be one who, as well as redistributing and EU standards have remained stable for many decades.
financial resources, might just consider redistributing The vast majority of them are driven not by Government
power. Those are some of the many reasons why I will or in Committee rooms but by industry. Most trading
vote against the Bill today. arrangements aim to optimise interoperability through
the recognition of other parties’ standards and agreements
3.35 pm on equivalence and adequacy. This is standard in global
trading arrangements.
Gillian Keegan (Chichester) (Con): I congratulate you
on your re-election, Madam Deputy Speaker, and on
Alan Brown: If, as the hon. Lady says, all these
becoming the first woman ever to be Chairman of Ways
regulations and agreements are actually driven by industry,
and Means—you make us all very proud.
what is there to be gained from leaving the EU? The
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brighton, Conservatives claim that the Government are taking
Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). Something that she missed back control, but according to her, industry drives all
out of her speech—inadvertently, I am sure—was that this regulation.
the Prime Minister’s father led the way on landmark
legislation. He led the habitats directive through the Gillian Keegan: Yes, but it drives standards. There are
European Parliament, showing that Conservative leadership three global standards across the world—one from the
on the environment runs in the family. EU, one from the US and one from China—and they
I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for do not always have to be the same. They largely do
Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) on align, but there could be differences based on geography
his excellent maiden speech, showing not only that he and specific things we want for our industries. As we
understands in great detail the plight of refugees, including move forward, we might want to diverge in some areas,
child refugees in particular, but that he has the experience particularly in emerging technologies. Yes, industry drives
and some of the solutions to make sure that we keep them, but industry will be talking to us here, probably
those people safe. We in the Conservative party always encouraging us to align in areas where there is no
want to keep children—particularly refugee children—safe. reason to diverge, but in other areas there will be
I am delighted that the Bill finally paves the way for opportunities to diverge. I can think of some areas
the UK to build a relationship with the European where we could enhance things in a way that the EU has
Union that is based on a free trade agreement. After not been able to do. [HON. MEMBERS: “Where?”]
nearly three years of being stuck—effectively re-running Rolls-Royce is based in Chichester. Like all car
the result of the referendum—this Parliament is free to manufacturers, it relies on just-in-time supply chains,
take a significant, positive step forward. Once we pass with parts and components moving across the channel
the Bill, a horizon of opportunity is in front of us. The from country to country several times during the
political declaration set out our aim to have no tariffs, manufacturing process. Such frictionless movement requires
no fees and no quotas in the economic relationship. I regulatory alignment or recognition of equivalent standards.
take this opportunity to thank the Secretary of State for This ensures quality, safety and environmental mitigation.
Exiting the European Union and his ministerial team It also avoids the need for car manufacturers to invest in
for their relentless determination to deliver on the large stock levels of critical components, which is important
referendum result. That is what we have been trying to because it enables safe sustainable profit margins in a
do for the last three years, and I know that he has highly competitive market. We understand this. There is
worked incredibly hard and taken hundreds of flights. no need to go backwards and put barriers in the way of
It is very much appreciated by me and the British highly integrated UK-EU manufacturing, but we must
people. work with the industry on both sides of the channel to
As someone who has worked for decades in impacted put new IT systems in place to automate these new
industries, including car manufacturing, banking, fintech arrangements.
and travel tech, I am pleased that we will leave with a Despite my firm belief in recognising and standardising
deal, in an orderly way. This Government’s ambition is regulations, I recognise that they can stifle growth if
to ensure that we not only maintain but build on our they are not implemented carefully, particularly in fast-
relationships with our partners across the channel. evolving sectors. Tech is a prime example—another
It is often said that trade negotiations take many years area where I have spent many decades in my career. The
and that it is therefore overly ambitious to try to UK has a significant advantage in tech and some of the
conclude an agreement by the end of the year, but there world’s finest academic institutions—we now boast three
has never been a trade negotiation like this one in of the top 10 universities worldwide—and our pool of
the history of the world. We start from a position of top talent is world class. Developing and retaining
100% alignment. We need to agree where it makes sense employees with key skills is critical for our knowledge-based
to stay aligned and how we do that, and where we want economy. We are home to many new businesses, with
to diverge. It seems to me that this is a perfectly achievable digital venture capital investment exceeding £6 billion
objective, given good political will on both sides of the in 2018 alone—the highest in Europe. The UK is one of
negotiating table. the world’s largest technology ecosystems.
693 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 694
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
To ensure that we keep our competitive advantage, I It feels as though we have been at this for quite a long
urge the Government to review techUK’s recommendations time. Here we are at, perhaps, one minute to midnight,
on our future digital trade policy to ensure that we and we have probably the penultimate opportunity to
continue to lead in the global digital landscape. The UK discuss these matters before the deed is done. It is a
is a global leader in fintech, biotech, environmental matter of some sadness to me that the proposals before
tech, which is sometimes referred to as green tech, and us today are an even more myopic, small-minded and
education tech—to name just a few fast-growing areas. miserable set of proposals than the ones that were
We are the best country in Europe in which to start a mooted at the beginning. I was sent here at the election
technology business and must continue to be so. To of 12 December to oppose them, which is why I will
prevent the rise of too many new barriers, we must vote for the amendment and against the substantive
adapt our regulatory frameworks as new and exciting motion this evening.
technologies emerge and we change our interactions There are many reasons why that is so, but I shall
with them. That is the opportunity. touch on just four. First, this course of action diminishes
Simultaneously, we must be vigilant against the threats the character of the people who live in these islands. It
that new tech can bring. We must enable cross-border makes us seem selfish, unco-operative and insular, and I
data flows in a way that protects our citizens’ data do not believe that that accurately characterises the people
without impeding business growth. Here we must who live not just in Scotland, but in England too.
collaborate internationally, not just with the EU but Secondly, these proposals make foreigners out of
with the OECD and the G20, and avoid digital many of our neighbours who have lived among us for a
protectionism. For example, the forced localisation of generation or more. In my own city, tens of thousands
data—[Interruption.] Hon. Members asked for advantages, of people who were born in mainland Europe but have
but they do not seem to be listening. I am giving an made the decision to raise their families and build their
example of an area where we could improve. We must homes and careers in our communities will lose their
avoid the forced localisation of data, the imposition of status, or have it fundamentally altered. More important,
tariffs and the enforced mandatory transfer of source in the longer term, the loss of freedom of movement
codes, algorithms or encryption keys as conditions of will pose an existential threat to the future prosperity of
market access. We must also acknowledge where the EU my country.
has got it right and co-operate with it. Some of us might
Thirdly, the proposals represent a fundamental shift
have found the recent GDPR legislation a bit tricky in
in the relationship between the devolved Administrations
our personal lives, but it is an example of protecting
in the United Kingdom and the central Government.
citizens’ rights in the digital space.
That is not to say that when we talk about a power grab
In accepting that dynamic alignment in some sectors it means that some responsibilities are being taken away
such as the automotive sector may be advantageous for from the Scottish Government. I do not say that. The
the UK, I would argue in the same breath that greater responsibilities remain, but the power to act in those
divergence will be vital in future emerging technologies. areas is being severely constrained and curtailed by
For sectors focused on artificial intelligence, cyber-security, frameworks and statutes set by this Parliament—even
data mining or the internet of things, speed and time to to the extent, in these proposals, that United Kingdom
market are key to enabling emerging technologies, and Ministers are taking the power to make secondary
we will have the opportunity to build simpler processes legislation in areas that this Parliament has decided
that work for the UK market. should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
Opportunity awaits the UK, and only by passing this Finally, I am against the proposals because they will
legislation can we get there. I hope that when we do, impoverish the people whom I represent. I do not say
Members throughout the House will call for compromise, that this catastrophe will be visited on us the day after
and will take an informed approach to regulation that exit day; I do not even say that it will happen in the
protects existing industries while creating competitive weeks and months after that; but there will be a slow,
advantage in emerging ones. insidious, grinding reduction in the living standards of
Finally, let me say this, as someone who voted to the people of this country, until we wake up in a few
remain in the referendum of 2016 but has voted to years’ time and realise that we are so much poorer than
support Brexit ever since—five times, and counting. we might have been, and so much poorer than similar
The step that we are taking in leaving the EU is a major communities in mainland Europe.
change, and with change comes some risk but also
opportunity. We must all show leadership; we should Mr Perkins: The hon. Gentleman and I have voted in
not be scaremongering. The whole of the UK, including the same way on many parts of this Bill. He is right to
all its constituent parts, is a dynamic, agile and trusted say that all the forecasts suggest that Brexit will make
global partner, and we are already a global leader in people in Britain poorer, but those same forecasts say
foreign direct business investment. We have so much to that Scotland leaving the UK will make Britain poorer,
build on. I look forward to supporting the Government so why is he in favour of that?
and colleagues across the House to make Brexit both a
reality and an opportunity. Tommy Sheppard: They do not say that. I will happily
supply the hon. Member with lots of compelling evidence
3.45 pm as to why Scotland would prosper as an independent
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): Let me country rather than being dragged down by the central
begin, Madam Deputy Speaker, by congratulating Government of the United Kingdom.
you on your recent election. It is a matter of some I know that many people are looking to the future in
regard that we now have the first female Chair of Ways this debate, and that many envision this as a bright new
and Means. dawn for the United Kingdom. They see a world where
695 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 696
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Tommy Sheppard] Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): Will the hon.
Gentleman give way?
the authority and status of this nation will be restored
in the eyes of the world. I know that people genuinely Tommy Sheppard: I did not think that there was a
think that—I do not say that they are insincere in this factual dispute about that, but I will happily be corrected
belief—but I do say that it is a delusion, a mirage, to if I have got it wrong.
suggest that this will happen. If you want evidence for
this, look no further than what has been happening over Alex Chalk: On the issue of factual disputes, is it not
recent months. A compromised United Kingdom also right to take into account the fact that in Scotland
Government, understanding that their ability to negotiate 55% of people voted for parties that are Unionist and
a trade agreement with the United States will be so want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom?
much more diminished compared with their ability as
part of a major European bloc, have got themselves Tommy Sheppard: If the hon. Gentleman had had the
into the embarrassing situation of demonstrating servility patience to wait for another couple of paragraphs, he
to the Trump Administration in order to try to protect would have allowed me to develop my point. I will
their future economic prosperity. That is what the future address explicitly what he says.
holds. We will have to make unholy alliances and awful
justifications for doing deals with certain people in The point is that we have a Government elected on
order to get trade agreements. 43% of the vote in an electoral system that I believe
corrupts the expression of popular opinion across
I am sure that there are Conservative Members who Parliament, rather than allowing it to be deliberated.
have sympathy with some of the points that I have made But rules are rules, and we all went into the election
but they are not going to express them today, because understanding the rules of engagement and what the
that great political party—arguably the greatest, historically, contest would be. I am not in any way saying that I do
in Great Britain—has got itself into a situation whereby not accept the result and the Government, even with
it is impossible to progress in that party unless one 43% on a first-past-the-post basis and a majority of
evangelises the cause of Brexit. Dissenting voices are no more than 86, have a legitimate democratic mandate
longer allowed. The right hon. Member for North not just in principle to leave the European Union, but to
Shropshire (Mr Paterson) is typical of many whose joy deliver Brexit on the terms that it proposed to the
and enthusiasm for what is about to happen are unbridled. electorate. I accept that.
He cannot wait to pop the champagne corks and break
However, I do not accept—this is my central
out the bunting in celebration, but I am afraid that the
contention—that that mandate runs in Scotland. The
future is nowhere near as rosy as he expects. He and
12 December vote was very much a tale of two election
others who have chosen this path are going to be
campaigns. The Conservative party won the campaign
severely disappointed.
in England, which was dominated by the relationship
that this country will have with the European Union.
Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): The SNP won the campaign in Scotland, which was
Does the hon. Member agree that, regardless of our dominated by whether Scotland would have the right to
political views on whether Brexit is good or bad, the choose to go down the path set here by the United
reality is where we are? Does he also agree that all Kingdom—[Interruption.] I am being heckled by the
Members need an evidence base on which to make right hon. Member for Braintree (James Cleverly), who
informed decisions? Does he share my concern that the I think is still a co-chair of the Conservative party, so let
Regulatory Policy Committee report that was issued in me explain and offer some rationale. I do not say these
October stated that the Committee did not have sufficient things glibly.
time to make a proper assessment of the impact and
Others have talked about statistics. The Scottish National
that it had not been able to meet Ministers? Surely there
party won the election in 80% of the areas in which it
has been sufficient time between October and now to
was contested in Scotland, and 80% of the Members of
rebuild that impact assessment so that we may all know
Parliament returned here from Scotland are from the
what we are voting for.
SNP. We won 45% of the popular vote, and the central
proposition that we put to the electorate was that Scotland
Tommy Sheppard: Throughout this entire process, we and the people who live in Scotland should have the
have been asked to take decisions without adequate right to choose how they are governed and whether they
information, so that is entirely consistent with the way want to go down the path chosen by the United Kingdom
in which this matter has been conducted. Government.
I want to move on to consider the question of political There are echoes and similarities between what happened
mandates, which are quite important in this discussion. in December 2019 and what happened in May 2015.
To do that, we have to consider the election that took Then, as now, a Conservative Government were returned
place on 12 December, in which people were asked their with a majority. Then, as now, the SNP won an
view and Brexit was very much the central issue of the overwhelming majority of seats in Scotland. The difference
campaign, certainly in most of the United Kingdom. is that in 2015 we did not seek a mandate from the
Others have said—my hon. Friend the Member for Na people of Scotland in relation to the constitutional
h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil) has said it position or how the country should be governed. We
repeatedly—that a majority of the people who voted in did not do that because the election took place just
that election throughout the United Kingdom voted for months after the 2014 referendum, when the electorate
parties that either wanted to stop Brexit altogether or made a choice and decided to remain in the United
wanted a fundamental re-examination of the terms on Kingdom. That does not apply now, because in December
which it was being proposed. 2019 we went to the Scottish electorate and explicitly
697 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 698
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
asked them to endorse the proposition that people who that many Conservative Members did not really support
live in Scotland should have the right to choose how it and thought the better option was to ignore the
they are governed and whether they wish to go down debate and pretend it was not happening, but it did
the Brexit path being offered by the United Kingdom happen and it will happen again.
Government. If the request from the First Minister of Scotland
and the request from the Scottish Parliament are denied
Simon Hoare: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? and ignored, it will be inconsistent with the claim of
right for Scotland. It will mean this House does not
Tommy Sheppard: If the hon. Gentleman wants to agree that it is a matter for the Scottish people to
dispute that that was the central part of our campaign, determine their own form of government. That would
I will happily take his intervention, be a very serious position, because it would mean this
Parliament is advocating that this United Kingdom
Simon Hoare: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, should continue to include parts of this island even
who came into the House at exactly the same time as I against the wishes of the people who live there. That
did. Unless I was living in some parallel universe, I seem would undermine the fundamental principle of consent
to remember hearing loads of speeches from SNP Members on which this constitution has so far been based.
immediately after the 2015 election arguing for and We would no longer be talking about a Union of
advocating Scottish independence. What he has just equals, or a Union at all; we would be talking about the
said is therefore not actually a correct reflection of subsummation of Scotland as a territory into a wider
history. As close as the 2015 election was to the referendum political territory known as the United Kingdom of
on independence, his party was advocating it loudly and Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is a different
with great passion from those Benches. constitutional position. If people want to argue it, we
are happy to take them on and have that debate, but at
Tommy Sheppard: I am unsure whether the hon. least be honest about it.
Gentleman is listening. I am saying that the SNP put a The most important people in all this are not those
proposition before the people in a democratic election who voted for the Government or for the SNP in
and they voted for it. Just to be sure, when I talk about opposition. The most important people in this debate
this mandate, it was not only the SNP that talked about are those who voted for neither. Many people, including
this matter. The central proposition of the Conservative in my constituency, put their faith in the capacity of the
party in Scotland was, “Say no to indyref 2.” The United Kingdom to reform itself and to give voice and
Conservative party in Scotland asked the people of expression to their needs and fears within this Union
Scotland to reject a referendum on independence, but Parliament. They voted in significant but not overwhelming
the people of Scotland instead rejected the Conservative numbers for the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties
party. That is the truth of the matter, and that is why in particular, and many of them are now asking themselves
that party now has less than half the Members it had whether, indeed, the type of society they wish to live in
four weeks ago. can be delivered by this Union Parliament and this
We have a new situation in these islands. For the first Government, or whether it would be a better course of
time in history, in this Chamber, which is charged with action to consider Scotland becoming a politically
representing the whole United Kingdom, are Members independent country capable of setting its own priorities
elected from the two principal countries within the and giving vent to the aspirations of its own people.
United Kingdom who have different mandates for the They have not yet made that decision. They are on a
constitution of the country. I invite the Government to journey and the debate, my friends, is wide open, but
say—this will not go away—how they will respond, how one of the key things that will focus that debate is the
they will acknowledge Scottish public opinion and how attitude and reaction of this United Kingdom Government.
they will come to an accommodation with the political If the Government decide to keep their head in the sand
representatives of Scotland. The start of that process and to pretend that this did not happen north of the
will be to understand what their response will be to the border, if they pretend it is business as usual, if they use
approach from the First Minister of Scotland, who has their 80-seat majority to railroad stuff through Parliament,
asked for negotiations with a view to transferring powers if they drag Scotland out against its will, if they refuse
to the Scottish Government so that they may consult to give Scotland a say and if they refuse to make any
the people on how they are governed. accommodation, they will become the best recruiting
To be crystal clear, we are not asking the Conservative sergeant for the cause of independence in Scotland. We
party or this Parliament to agree with the notion of look forward to explaining to the people of Scotland
Scottish independence. We are not even asking them to the consequences of the Government’s actions.
agree that there should be another referendum. We are We will be voting against this miserable set of proposals
simply saying they should agree that when and whether because we have not voted for them, the people we
that happens should be a matter for the people who live represent have not voted for them and the Scottish
in Scotland, and no one else. The decisions on these Parliament will not consent to them. These proposals
matters should be made by the people via their elected are wrong and they do not represent the aspirations and
representatives in the national Parliament of Scotland the character of the people of Scotland. That, in the
in Edinburgh and not here in the Union Parliament in long term, will be represented much better by Scotland
London. becoming an independent European nation in its own
That is the central proposition and, in making it, we right.
are consistent with the claim of right for Scotland,
which was debated in this very Chamber in July 2018 Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I call
and endorsed by the House without opposition. I know Neil Parish.
699 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 700
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
4.4 pm Angus Brendan MacNeil rose—
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Thank
you, Madam Deputy Speaker—patience pays in this Alex Chalk rose—
House. Congratulations on being elected not only as
Deputy Speaker but as Chairman of Ways and Means. Neil Parish: I will give way first to my hon. Friend
It is a great privilege to have you in that role. and then to almost a friend on the other side of the
Chamber.
This afternoon, we have had three maiden speeches.
First, there was my hon. Friend the Member for Alex Chalk: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is
Montgomeryshire (Craig Williams), whom I very much making an excellent and impassioned speech. Does he
welcome to the House. I also pay tribute to his predecessor, agree that as part of creating a better agriculture policy,
Glyn Davies, whom I worked with a great deal on the we can include restoring, promoting and incentivising
Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and biodiversity so that we have a richer, more diverse and
elsewhere. There is huge interest in Montgomery in secure countryside?
farming, especially sheep farming. The hon. Member
for Putney (Fleur Anderson) made a very good maiden Neil Parish: My hon. Friend makes a good point.
speech, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, This is not only about the Agriculture Bill; it is about
Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds), who brings the Environment Bill and how we link the two together.
to the House huge expertise on migration and dealing It is about the way we deal with our soils and plant
with those whose families are seeking to come to this trees. Everybody in this place and outside wants to
country. plant more trees, but let us plant them in a smart way so
It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate because it they hold our soils and prevent flooding. Let us do all
is a historic moment. I pay tribute to the Secretary of those things so that our biodiversity increases. Then we
State and his team, not only for what is happening can make sure that we keep good agricultural production
now—it is much easier now we have a majority of 80 to and good soils, which are key.
win some votes—but for his patience and tenacity through
the hours of debate that went on for several years. I pay Angus Brendan MacNeil: I will go a step further than
tribute to Opposition Members who opposed the Bill “almost a friend” and say that I am grateful to my
because they did not like the type of Brexit, but many friend for giving way. Dropping the friendliness for a
Opposition Members opposed it because they just did moment and bringing the politics back into it straight,
not want Brexit. That is what the British people worked surely the hon. Gentleman would respect the devolved
out in the general election. There are no two ways about competences of the Scottish Government in agriculture
it. When we were on the doorstep, it was clear that they and fishing in the new way of negotiation that the
had worked out that Brexit needed to be done. I therefore British Government plan to use to handle things in
welcome the Bill. Brussels? We would not want to see the rise of a UK
I also welcome the fact that the Government will take centralised superstate, would we?
Executive powers to negotiate in Europe. In the past
two and a half to three years, we were dogged by the Neil Parish: A superstate is precisely what the European
fact that while we were busily trying to negotiate with Union wants to make itself into, and that is one of the
the European Union, this British Parliament was busy reasons why we are leaving. To throw the ball straight
undermining our negotiations and our negotiators. Did back, as the hon. Gentleman knows I can, although we
people think that the European Union and the European do not want to create a United Kingdom superstate, as
Commission were not watching what was going on? he puts it, what we do want is some similarity between
Were they feeding into it? I do not know. Perhaps that is agricultural policy north of the border and south of it.
one conspiracy theory too many and I will leave such We do not want to create huge competition in different
matters to the Leader of the Opposition. policy areas. Let us work together to deliver a policy
To be serious, we are at a moment when we can that works. I am not arguing against having an English
deliver Brexit. In a way, the two great planks of the policy or a Scottish policy, but let us work together to
European Union are the common agricultural policy produce a policy that works.
and the common fisheries policy. I have had direct
experience of chairing the European Parliament’s Alan Brown rose—
Committee on Agriculture and Rural Development for
two years. Do hon. Members honestly believe that we Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
cannot create a better agriculture policy for the four rose—
nations of the United Kingdom instead of the one for
27 or 28 countries in the European Union, from the Neil Parish: I had better let the hon. Gentleman, who
north of Finland to the south of Greece? Of course we was on the EFRA Committee, speak next.
can. Why do we have a three-crop rule that makes us
plant all sorts of crops that we do not necessarily need Alan Brown: The hon. Gentleman must know he is
in this country because we grow a lot of grass, which is undermining his own argument about taking back control
excellent for the environment? It is because east Germany in saying that we cannot have divergence between Scotland
grows nothing but maize, maize, maize, year in, year and England. We now face 11 months where there is the
out. That is why we have the three-crop rule. risk of a no-deal crash-out. Will he confirm that the
With all those matters, we can make things simpler. EFRA Committee he chaired and which I sat on heard
We can even help our friends north of the border. We evidence that if we were to trade on World Trade
can do all sorts of things to create a better agriculture Organisation rules, we could not stop the import of
policy once we have got the Bill through. chlorinated chicken or hormone-injected beef because
701 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 702
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
of most-favoured-nation status? We could not prevent “Let’s have a policy that has some similarities.” I accept
that under environmental standards. Did we not hear that it will have differences, but we have to make sure
from the farming industry that the big concern was the that we have a policy that works for the whole of the
market being flooded by Argentinian beef, which would United Kingdom, because the Conservative party is not
ruin our industry? We can have any policy we want, but the party that wants to break up the UK.
if we trade on WTO rules, farming is finished. I wish to go on to fishing—
Neil Parish: The answer is clear. We now have a clear
mandate to leave the European Union, and we can Several hon. Members rose—
negotiate with the EU having the ability to walk away if
we choose. That is precisely why we will get a trade deal Neil Parish: I have given way four or five times, so I
with the EU. We have spent three years tying the hands will keep going because the Deputy Speaker is saying
of the Government’s negotiators and making sure that that at some stage we might like to vote this evening. Do
that deal does not happen. I am a farmer, as the House we really believe that there will not be much greater
well knows. I know that either you decide to do a deal access to fish and fishing rights? Do we not believe we
and shake on it, or you decide the price is too high and will be able to have a better environmental policy than
walk away. Parliament has spent all its time tying our the common fisheries policy?
hands. It is now time to get that deal. I have every
confidence in the Secretary of State and the Prime
Minister to deliver that deal. Opposition Members have Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con):
spent the last three years thwarting us, and the British Does my hon. Friend agree that what we have found
people have finally worked it out. when speaking to real fisherman, as he and I have, over
the past 30-plus years is that all they have said is that
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): My hon. Friend they want to withdraw from this terrible policy, whereby
has chaired the EFRA Committee. Can he confirm that in the south-west 8% of the cod comes to the UK and
in relation to sanitary and phytosanitary standards, almost 80% goes to France?
each country that chooses to import grants a licence
specific to the product, so whatever we choose to import, Neil Parish: If anyone can speak for the fishing
it is down to DEFRA to grant the licence and has industry in this House, it is my hon. Friend, who has
nothing to do with WTO rules? It is to do with the huge experience of this, as did her previous husband. I
individual country’s sanitary standards. pay a huge tribute to that. We need to leave the CFP. As
we set our new policies for fishing, we will get greater
Neil Parish: My hon. Friend is right. With chicken, fishing rights, because the problem in 1972-73 was that
the issue is not the use of chlorine gas in the processing—in the fisherman were sold away and we had terrible
fact, only about 20% of American chicken is dealt with quotas. That needs to be put right and I know that she,
in that way. The point is the Americans rear broilers at like me and many others in this House, is determined to
probably three or four times the density that we do and ensure that those wrongs are put right. Not only will we
they use far more antibiotics, and they use the chlorine be able to address fishing rights and the amount of fish,
process to enable them to bring their chicken to the but there is also the possibility of having much better
market. All we have to do as we do a trade deal with the environmental management. We will be able to examine
European Union is lay down the rules on the welfare of the types of nets being used and to make sure that we
chickens. We are actually proposing higher welfare standards sort out many of the issues relating to porpoises, dolphins
in the Agriculture Bill. That is how we deal with it. and everything that is caught in bycatch. So there are
Chlorine is not necessarily the issue. many positive sides of leaving the CAP, the CFP and
the EU.
Deidre Brock: Let me return to the hon. Gentleman’s
comments about the NFU and common frameworks I wanted to make this speech today because I have
that were discussed when we considered the Agriculture listened for three years as the opposition of all sorts of
Bill in the last Parliament. I was surprised to hear those shapes, sizes and colours have thwarted Brexit in this
comments because all the NFUs that gave evidence to House. They put forward all sorts of reasons, some
the Committee were telling us that they wanted to see spurious, some right and some not, in order that we
their ability to differentiate the different jurisdictions would not leave the EU. Now we will leave it and let us
maintained and that frameworks should always be agreed be positive. We can get this trade deal, an agriculture
between the four NFUs, not imposed. What does he say policy that works and a fishing policy that works. We
to them? have an Environment Bill coming through whereby we
are going to put an office for environmental protection
Neil Parish: I have no problem with that proposal, in place to make sure that our rules are not only as good
but this is about how people work together. For example, as those of the EU, but better. Let us be positive
we would not want a beef special premium being paid tonight. Let us actually believe in this great United
north of the border and some sort of area payment Kingdom. The best union of all is not the European
being paid south of it, because that would immediately Union but the United Kingdom, so let us not destroy
create competition in the British market. that. Let us go forward and, together, this Parliament
will deliver. I look forward to hearing from the Secretary
Deidre Brock rose— of State and Ministers exactly how we are going to do
it. I have every faith in not only the Secretary of State
Neil Parish: No, I am not going to give way again, and Ministers, but the Prime Minister being able to
because I have been very generous. The key is getting deliver a good deal for the UK. For goodness’ sake, let
the farming unions to work together in order to say, us once and for all actually leave the European Union.
703 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 704
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): It is a Ireland’s place is as part of the European Union. The
pleasure to call to make his maiden speech Mr Stephen Democratic Unionist party comes from a leave, pro-Brexit
Farry. perspective. Regardless of how we reached this point,
we all share the desire to ensure that we have the
seamless, unfettered trade between Northern Ireland
4.20 pm
and Great Britain that was the theme of the amendments,
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): Thank you to protect the wider UK internal market and to ensure
very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I should say that the GB-to-Northern Ireland interface can be managed
that I have already had that privilege, before the Christmas successfully.
break. None the less, thank you for the entreaty.
Several wider points need to be made about the
Madam Deputy Speaker: I sincerely apologise to the context. First, we should not see emerging—or indeed
hon. Gentleman. It will be obvious that I have been being forced on us—a choice or a trade-off between
absent from the Chair for a few weeks. Given that the some sort of border or interface on the island of Ireland
hon. Gentleman is not making his maiden speech, he and a border or interface down the Irish sea. We want
can take lots of interventions and everyone can shout at to avoid both those possibilities, but there will be a huge
him. challenge in the way things have fallen in that respect.
Indeed, the Assembly has almost been set up with this
choice to make in four or eight years’ time: whether to
Stephen Farry: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy
maintain ongoing regulatory alignment for goods on an
Speaker, for setting me up in that regard. May I pass on
all-island and European basis, or align with the rest of
formally our congratulations on your election as Deputy
the UK. It is not a choice that anyone particularly
Speaker?
relishes and it builds a degree of instability into our
I wish to introduce Northern Ireland into the debate, political structures. Members will be aware that talks
given the fact that it has been so central to the Brexit are ongoing back in Belfast as we speak to try to restore
process so far. There are still so many unresolved issues the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly—I pay
and questions and it is important that we reflect on tribute to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
them as the Bill passes Third Reading, because there is for his work in that regard over the past months—but
still a long journey ahead. Brexit adds a new layer of complexity to that wider
Before I do that, I wish to make some general comments context.
and to share in the concerns expressed by many Opposition
Members about where we are with the Bill. There is The focus of the debate and the amendments has
uncertainty as to whether a trade deal can be done in largely been the interface between Northern Ireland
the next 11 and a half months; there is the risk of no and Great Britain, mainly because that is much more
deal; there is the nature of the future relationship to under the control of the UK Government. However,
consider; and there are issues of the parliamentary the process from Great Britain into Northern Ireland—and,
scrutiny, or lack thereof, of where we go from here. Of indeed, beyond into the European Union—is just as
course, there is also more general regret about the important, if not more so. I think that those plans were
Brexit process, which is going to leave the UK in a not tested so much through amendments because that
worse position overall in terms of the economy, society, work depends on the outworkings of the future free
security and the environment. That is particularly true trade arrangement. In that regard, it is worth stressing
of my own region of Northern Ireland. that a free trade agreement—even one that is very far
reaching and inclusive—is not the same as the arrangements
I wish to focus on the unresolved issues. Brexit throws we currently have as part of the European Union; it is
up a unique set of challenges for Northern Ireland, not the same as a customs union and a single market. A
because, perhaps more than any other part of the UK, free trade agreement is a qualitatively different concept.
we are part of that wider network—that integrated We currently have a free trade arrangement through
framework across these islands. We are interdependent which we can access trade agreements with the rest of
in terms of our trade and our society, both north-south the world, and that is what we are giving up for an
on the island and in the wider whole-UK context as untested future.
well. The problem of Brexit is that, whatever way it
falls, it entails some degree of new barriers, borders or There is ambiguity about where Northern Ireland
friction. In the context of Northern Ireland, that creates will sit with respect to these future trade relations—whether
a sense of win and loss, in terms not only of the we are part of a wider European Union framework
economy but of wider society and the emotional and when it comes to goods, or whether we are part of the
psychological impacts. We also need to be acutely aware wider UK trade policy. There was a time, particularly
of the potential political ramifications in the medium to under the proposals of the former Prime Minister, when
long term. Northern Ireland could have had a foot in both camps,
That said, we saw this week the almost remarkable and the business community was embracing that. The
situation in which, across the political divide in Northern danger now is that Northern Ireland could be marginalised
Ireland, we had all the parties coming together behind a and peripheral in both UK and EU trade terms, with
common set of amendments, which were also backed local businesses facing considerable ongoing economic
by—and, indeed, in many respects driven by—the local costs. In particular, there may well be barriers to accessing
business community in Northern Ireland, which has certain markets or attracting investment, because people
itself come together in an almost unprecedented way will just see Northern Ireland as a complicated place
because of the huge importance of the issues before us. and think that it is too difficult to engage with us. Our
I remain very much convinced, as do my colleagues in economy, which is already struggling from a low starting
the Social Democratic and Labour party, that Northern point, will continue to be marginalised.
705 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 706
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
As we look to a future relationship, it is important dogged the 2017 Parliament was deeply damaging for
that we bear in mind the importance of integrating businesses and for confidence in this institution. It is
goods with access to labour; I am particularly thinking tremendously regrettable that the former Prime Minister,
about ongoing freedom of movement and the service having held a general election that she did not need to,
economy. It is very difficult to uncouple the four freedoms refused to negotiate with the Labour party leader and
of the European single market. We need some degree of was then put under tremendous pressure by the Eurosceptics
new deal for Northern Ireland because local businesses in her own party when she did attempt to negotiate. I
are going to face considerable economic costs. There also regret that my right hon. Friend the Member for
will be a need for financial support as mitigation, or to Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) decided to pursue a
support the transition as local companies adjust to the second general election rather than attempting to get
new arrangements and the new market frameworks. the Brexit matter resolved. Ultimately we are weaker as
Let me return to what happens as we look ahead to a result of that.
the next phase. There is a gap between: the rhetoric,
declarations and promises of the UK Government and Alan Brown: The hon. Gentleman correctly said that
Ministers, particularly the Prime Minister; what we the SNP have 80% of seats and we favour independence,
have been told by a range of different experts; and the but a key plank of our mandate was actually Scotland’s
reality of international and European law on customs right to choose, so it does not matter what our views are
and regulatory matters. That is an ongoing challenge on independence. He clearly has a different view. Does
which needs to be addressed, but Northern Ireland he not agree that the mandate we have is for the people
businesses want to see the commitments to unfettered of Scotland to choose either independence or to reconfirm
access being honoured. We want to ensure that there is that they want to stay in the Union?
no discrimination against Northern Ireland goods, and
it is important that we assess on an ongoing basis the
Mr Perkins: We had a referendum. I went up to
economic impact of the Northern Ireland protocol.
Scotland, as many other people did, during that referendum.
My final point is that there has been a lot of focus on It was very interesting that a few moments ago one of
the joint report as being the almost magic solution to the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues proudly said, “We got
every unresolved question at this stage, as well as on the 45% of the vote.” I thought, “45%—that sounds familiar”,
free trade agreement and negotiations. Given the very and of course that is because it is precisely how many
particular circumstances faced by Northern Ireland, my people voted for independence back in 2016.
appeal would be for Northern Ireland representatives to
be integral to those discussions and for there to be a
proper feedback loop to the Northern Ireland Assembly, Several hon. Members rose—
Executive and whatever democratic structures we can
put in place back in Northern Ireland. Mr Perkins: That matter is settled and I am going to
deal with the matter that we are dealing with today.
4.29 pm However, I would just say this on Scotland. When
people hear Scottish National party MPs stand up and
Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): It is a great say that the SNP is representing the people of Scotland
pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Madam who all voted in favour of staying in the EU, they
Deputy Speaker. You recently enjoyed a landslide victory should remember that the SNP spent less than 10% of
of your own, so huge congratulations to you on your the money on the EU referendum that they spent on the
appointment. independence referendum. The SNP got exactly the
We finally reach the end of the beginning stage of result it wanted, which was that Scotland voted to stay
Brexit. It is a huge matter of regret to me that this in the EU but the UK voted to leave. The biggest
Parliament and its predecessor have failed to compromise priority for the SNP has always been independence, and
and the remain camp in the United Kingdom has that is why it took the position it did.
learned the same lesson that the pro-Union camp did in
Scotland: first past the post can be pretty brutal when
Angus Brendan MacNeil rose—
only one party is on one side of a binary issue. Whereas
Scotland, a country that voted against independence,
keeps electing pro-independence MPs, at least in the Mr Perkins: No, I am going to make some progress.
UK there was a majority in favour— The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil
Parish) claimed that it was the uncertainty that we had
Alan Brown rose— in the last Parliament that undermined our negotiations.
Well, now we will see, because now there are no excuses
Angus Brendan MacNeil rose— for Conservative Members. There is no sense that
Parliament’s position is unknown. It is clear that we are
Mr Perkins: Let me make a little progress and then I going to leave the EU, and now they have no one else to
will give way. blame. It is entirely their responsibility, and the fishermen,
At least in the UK there was a majority, albeit a very the farmers and the car workers up at Nissan will see
narrow one, for leaving the EU. whether it was this Parliament that was preventing the
It is a tremendous failure that the 2017-19 Parliament Government from getting the deal that they promised
was unable to agree on a settlement that respected both during the referendum.
the referendum and the 2017 general election result. I As we vote on this tonight—as my hon. Friend the
regret the decision the British public took, but I accept Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) rightly
it. I also accept that the indecision and uncertainty that said, this is only the first part of all this and we will get
707 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 708
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Mr Perkins] our country after Brexit, but the Government are foolish
to continue to pursue the very narrow Brexit that they
on to the detail after that vote—I am minded to remember have suggested.
that Vote Leave promised us during the last referendum Our country has a long history of being a global
that player. We have taken an active interest in global affairs
“we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any and made a contribution that far outweighs the size of
legal process to leave”. our nation throughout history. Leaving the European
That was one of the central promises of the Vote Leave Union does not have to mean relinquishing or reducing
campaign. When we vote tonight, we will be voting that global role. It does not have to mean retreating into
against that promise made by Vote Leave—we will be narrow nationalism, but many who support it want that
leaving the EU and then deciding on what basis we future for our country. The Conservative party has
leave. But let us see if the Government are able to ceased to be a broad church. Only rampant Europhobia
negotiate this much better deal. I confess that I will feel is to be tolerated now. I have never seen a less broad
a huge sense of relief when the Bill passes tonight, so church—[Interruption.] Conservative Members are
that we can move on to the next stage, and we will see pointing at the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and
whether the Government are able to deliver in any way Wickford (Mr Francois) to describe what a broad church
on the promises that they made. they are; that is how desperate it has got.
The future relationship is not sorted, and it is now for It is now for my party to become a broad church
the Conservative party and its MPs to decide what that again and recognise the reasons why communities who
future relationship will be. They may well do it without voted Labour for decades chose to seek a future outside
Parliament having much of a say. Opponents of the new the EU. We need to seek a co-operative and internationalist
Tory Eurosceptic consensus have been swept away, and path for our country. The Labour party will not win
the supine, obedient group of Europhobic robots that votes in this Parliament, but we can, if we choose, lead
we see in front of us have taken their place. Like lambs, the way to a different but still close relationship with
they will lead us in whichever direction is ordered by the our nearest neighbours—one that eschews a mean-spirited
right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip approach to the most vulnerable people and seeks still
(Boris Johnson), who will receive his orders from Dominic to offer the opportunities to the next generation of
Cummings. We will see what direction they take us in. young people that so many of our generation enjoyed.

4.39 pm
Angus Brendan MacNeil: On the UK’s future relationship
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): Madam
with the EU, the hon. Gentleman is content to leave it
Deputy Speaker, my congratulations on your election to
to the Tory Government, but on Scotland’s future
your new post—a historic appointment—and welcome
relationship, all we get is being patronised; we cannot
back.
decide ourselves. The reality is that, in 2014, we were
promised a guarantee of our place in the European First, I will say that we in Her Majesty’s official
Union by staying in the United Kingdom. That promise Opposition will be abstaining on the SNP amendment
is null and void. We cannot have any more non-Scottish tonight, because while we are sympathetic to its aims,
MPs patronising the Scottish people. Their mandate our objections to this Bill are far wider. We object to so
must be respected. We must have a referendum, and the much in this Bill that we cannot confine ourselves to
Scottish people must decide—not non-Scottish MPs, voting just for the reasoned amendment. We will be
who think this is better for Scotland. Scotland needs to focused entirely on voting against the entire Bill on
decide. Third Reading—and no, that is not voting against
Brexit; it is voting against this Bill.
Mr Perkins: The hon. Gentleman has made his point. Hon. Members: Oh, yes it is!
I have already responded to that, and it does not take us
any further to go on now. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order.
I voted for the amendments that my colleagues tabled, Thangam Debbonaire: Some hon. Members appear to
and we were right to seek to improve the Bill. I regret think we are still in the Christmas pantomime season;
that the new orthodoxy recognises no value in the we are not. Just saying that does not make it clever and
Erasmus programme, which enables young people without does not make it right. All the Conservative Members
huge wealth to enjoy some of the opportunities that who think they are about to vote to get Brexit done
young people with wealth will continue to enjoy. It was must know what lies ahead. They know—they must
triumphalist and not sensible to remove the assurances know—that trade negotiations take time. They must
from the Bill that the Prime Minister put in place on its know that even if we are in alignment now, the
Second Reading in the last Parliament. It is ultimately Government’s stated intention is to diverge. So be in no
for the victors to decide who they want to appeal to—it doubt: trade negotiations will take longer than the
is for the Conservative party. It has got the Brexit it precious few months that the Government have allowed.
wants now, and it can decide, but a party that refuses to Getting them done at historic speed does not look very
try to speak to those who voted against it will find itself likely when the EU itself has already warned that it will
in an ever diminishing pool. The next leader of the take longer than that.
Labour party will also need to learn that lesson. Whoever’s responsibility this is, the Government with
I will not oppose the Bill’s Third Reading today, this Bill—clause 33—have boxed themselves in so there
because the desire to get beyond this stage is powerful is absolutely no get-out. As my hon. Friend the Member
and palpable. Businesses and communities wish for the for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) has said, clause 33
Government to map out the future that we foresee for is a gimmick, but it is a gimmick at the expense of the
709 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 710
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
people of the United Kingdom. At the end of this year, on the withdrawal agreement Bill. This Bill will implement
if we are just days away from agreeing a trade deal or a in UK law the withdrawal agreement between the United
few weeks away from sorting out the arrangements for Kingdom and the European Union, ensuring that the
moving medical devices or airline parts between the EU UK departs the EU with a deal, getting Brexit done on
and the United Kingdom, it will make no difference: 31 January, as we promised the British public we would.
this Bill has bound the Government’s own hands. There It will once and for all deliver on the mandate given to
will be no extension, and that is why we call it a cliff us not once but twice: in June 2016 and again in
edge. December 2019.
We did not need to be here. This Opposition have I would like to thank Members across the House who
accepted that Brexit is happening on 31 January. [HON. have contributed to the Committee stage over the last
MEMBERS: “Hurrah!”] Triumphalism is not terribly seemly two years—two days. [Interruption.] Sometimes days
in this circumstance. We also did not need to be in a can feel like years, but the new tone of this House
position where we are letting down child refugees. Let it obviously makes time seem to pass much quicker. I also
be on record that the Opposition stood up for child add my thanks to the Clerks and officials in the Public
refugees. We stood up for child refugees in trying to Bill Office, who consistently provide invaluable support
hold the Government to their own commitment to to Members in the House.
Lord Alf Dubs. They have no mandate for doing this. It We have had three excellent maiden speeches in this
is mean-spirited and morally as well as politically unjustified. debate, which also saw the very welcome return of my
I hope in the other place that their lordships will restore hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans)
our amendment, which is actually about restoring the to the Chair, continuing the Lancashire theme that we
Government’s own commitment that the Prime Minister had at departmental questions. There was also the
himself agreed should be in the previous version of this welcome election of the first female Chair of Ways and
withdrawal agreement Bill. I hope they will restore it, Means.
and that we will stand up for child refugees in that
House and in this. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire
(Craig Williams) gave an excellent maiden speech—although
I come to the maiden speeches. My hon. Friend the
he does have the benefit of having done it before. He
Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) showed the people
spoke with warmth and passion about his home seat.
of Putney that they made an excellent choice. She
He rightly paid tribute to his much-loved predecessor,
clearly already knows and loves her constituency and
who has given 50 years so far of public service. Having
understands the lives and values of her constituents.
worked closely with him as my special adviser in the
She has already been a strong voice for them this
Department, I know that he will champion Wales
afternoon. She covered an enormous amount in her
throughout his time in the House, and I look forward to
first speech, and I salute her ability to do that with
resuming my conversations with him on agriculture,
clarity and great voice. I am already delighted to have
and I am sure on rugby as well.
her as a colleague, and I look forward to working with
her. The hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and The hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) gave
Pinner (David Simmonds) also made his maiden speech, a very good maiden speech, showing her passion for her
and I congratulate him as he also showed his care for his constituency, and for the community groups and the
constituency and his clear commitment to represent his community spaces with which she has worked. She
constituents and their values in this place. referenced Clement Attlee and gave a speech that I am
To the Government and to the Prime Minister, the sure he would have been very proud to hear. She is right
Opposition say: this is now on them. Despite the lack of to highlight the value of the European Union citizens in
provision for scrutiny in this Bill, we will still use every her constituency. That is one of the safeguards that this
tool we can to scrutinise the progress of the negotiations Bill delivers, because we value their contribution not
on the future relationship. Obviously, Conservative just in Putney but across the United Kingdom.
Members believe this is a great future. If that is a great My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood
future, I will happily stand here and be corrected. and Pinner (David Simmonds) gave a first-class maiden
speech, which displayed his clear and detailed knowledge
Several hon. Members rose— and experience of immigration issues, and indeed it was
clear that he held the attention of the House. It signalled
Thangam Debbonaire: No, I will not give way. the valuable contribution that I know he will make to
forthcoming debates.
If, however, trade negotiations do not get concluded
with record speed over the next few weeks and months, We also had a number of very powerful speeches
we will be holding this Government to account. We will from some of the most experienced Members of the
expose the consequences to the people we were sent House. My right hon. Friend the Member for South
here to represent. We will expose the Government’s Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) spoke of
actions. We will use every tool that we have in order to the importance of place and the people who have spoken
do that. We owe it to the people of the United Kingdom within that place, and with his 30,000-plus majority
to show them that we stood up for them today and they certainly have spoken very clearly on behalf of my
every day, so we will vote against this Bill tonight. right hon. Friend.
My right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire
4.44 pm (Mr Paterson) spoke about the importance of democratic
accountability and of restoring control over our fishing,
The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union an issue that he has championed throughout his time in
(Steve Barclay): During the Committee stage this week this place. We will restore to this country the advantages
and today on Third Reading we have had good debates of our spectacular marine wealth through this Bill.
711 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 712
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
[Steve Barclay] The European Commission President yesterday gave
what I thought was a very thoughtful speech at the
My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William London School of Economics, speaking of old friends
Cash) spoke of this as a great moment in our democracy and new beginnings. She expressed her desire to establish
and it being a tribute to the British people. I gently say a future relationship that is “unprecedented in scope”.
to my hon Friend that it is also a tribute to him, who, In our later meeting with the Commission President,
despite criticism over the years, has stuck fast to his the Prime Minister made it clear that we share her
principles, and that is reflected in this Bill. desire for a relationship based on our shared history,
interests and values. That is what we intend to build as a
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con): I consequence of the Bill.
entirely endorse that tribute. Under the Bill, and specifically Three years ago, Parliament entrusted the decision of
under article 50, we will leave the European Union at our relationship with the EU to the British people. By
11 pm GMT on 31 January. As we leave at a precise passing the Bill, we will send a clear message that we
specified time, those who wish to celebrate will need to have listened and we have acted. In doing so, we will
look to a clock to mark the moment. It seems inconceivable restore trust in this House and in our democracy. Once
to me and many colleagues that that clock should not Brexit is delivered on 31 January, we can turn our eyes
be the most iconic timepiece in the world, Big Ben. Will towards our other national priorities: education and
my right hon. Friend make representations to the House skills; making our country safer; investing in the future
of Commons Commission, whose decision it is, that Big of our much-loved NHS; and levelling up all parts of
Ben should bong for Brexit? the United Kingdom. This is what people care about. It
is what this people’s Government cares about. Passing
Steve Barclay: My right hon. Friend will know that the Brexit Bill will unlock the time and energy to make
my opposite number often talked of a clock ticking. He those priorities a reality.
will also know that that decision is for the House
It is time to get Brexit done. The Bill does so. I
authorities, but I am sure they will have heard the
commend the Bill to the House.
representations he makes. This is an important moment
in our national story, and I am sure they will want to Question put, That the amendment be made.
reflect that in the appropriate way. The House divided: Ayes 62, Noes 329.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Gillian Division No. 13] [4.55 pm
Keegan) gave a very insightful speech, reflecting her AYES
detailed commercial expertise. She is particularly right
Bardell, Hannah Jardine, Christine
to draw the attention of the House to emerging technologies Black, Mhairi Lake, Ben
as one of the key opportunities unlocked by taking Blackford, rh Ian Law, Chris
back control of our trade policy. My hon. Friend the Blackman, Kirsty Linden, David
Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) spoke Bonnar, Steven Lucas, Caroline
with the experience of a former Chair of the European Brock, Deidre MacAskill, Kenny
Parliament’s agriculture committee. As a farming Brown, Alan MacNeil, Angus Brendan
constituency MP myself, I know that when he talks Callaghan, Amy McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
about what the National Farmers Union calls the “utter Cameron, Dr Lisa McDonald, Stuart C.
madness” of the three-crop rule, dictating to our farmers Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair McLaughlin, Anne
what they can and cannot grow, he speaks powerfully of Chamberlain, Wendy Monaghan, Carol
the opportunities that the Bill will unlock. Chapman, Douglas Moran, Layla
Cherry, Joanna Newlands, Gavin
This evening, the Bill will pass to the other place with Cooper, Daisy Nicolson, John
a very clear mandate from this House that now is the Cowan, Ronnie O’Hara, Brendan
time to move forwards. I anticipate constructive scrutiny, Crawley, Angela Olney, Sarah
as we would expect of the other place, but I have no Davey, rh Sir Edward Oswald, Kirsten
doubt that their lordships will have heard the resounding Day, Martyn Saville Roberts, rh Liz
message from the British people on 12 December and Docherty-Hughes, Martin Sheppard, Tommy
that they will have seen the clear will of this House as Doogan, Dave Smith, Alyn
expressed by the sizeable majorities in the Committee Dorans, Allan Stephens, Chris
votes. The other place has, on more than one occasion, Eastwood, Colum Stone, Jamie
shown itself capable of acting at remarkable speed Farron, Tim Thewliss, Alison
Farry, Stephen Thompson, Owen
when it considers that it is in the interests of democracy
Ferrier, Margaret Thomson, Richard
and votes in this House. Given that, it is my sincere
Flynn, Stephen Whitford, Dr Philippa
hope that their lordships will now give due regard to the Gibson, Patricia
clear majorities in Committee and establish their Williams, Hywel
Grady, Patrick
endorsement of the Bill in a similar timely fashion. Wilson, Munira
Grant, Peter
Wishart, Pete
The Bill will secure our departure from the European Gray, Neil
Union with a deal that gives certainty to businesses, Hendry, Drew Tellers for the Ayes:
protects the rights of our citizens and ensures that we Hobhouse, Wera Claire Hanna and
regain control of our money, our borders, our laws and Hosie, Stewart Jonathan Edwards
our trade policy. Once the Bill has been passed and the
withdrawal agreement ratified, we will proceed swiftly NOES
to the completion of a free trade deal with the EU by Adams, Nigel Aiken, Nickie
the end of December 2020, as laid out in our manifesto, Afolami, Bim Aldous, Peter
bringing the supremacy of EU law to an end and Afriyie, Adam Allan, Lucy
restoring permanently the sovereignty of this place. Ahmad Khan, Imran Amess, Sir David
713 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 714
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Anderson, Lee Davies, Dr James Higginbotham, Antony Millar, Robin
Anderson, Stuart Davies, Mims Hinds, rh Damian Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Andrew, Stuart Davies, Philip Hoare, Simon Milling, Amanda
Ansell, Caroline Davis, rh Mr David Holden, Mr Richard Mills, Nigel
Argar, Edward Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin Mohindra, Gagan
Atherton, Sarah Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Moore, Damien
Atkins, Victoria Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Adam Moore, Robbie
Bacon, Mr Gareth Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul Mordaunt, rh Penny
Bacon, Mr Richard Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, John Morris, Anne Marie
Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Double, Steve Howell, Paul Morris, David
cast by Leo Docherty) Dowden, rh Oliver Huddleston, Nigel Morrissey, Joy
Bailey, Shaun Doyle-Price, Jackie Hudson, Dr Neil Morton, Wendy
Baillie, Siobhan Drax, Richard Hughes, Eddie Mullan, Dr Kieran
Baker, Duncan Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Jane Mumby-Croft, Holly
Baker, Mr Steve Duddridge, James Hunt, rh Jeremy Mundell, rh David
Baldwin, Harriett Duguid, David Hunt, Tom Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Barclay, rh Steve Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jack, rh Mr Alister Murrison, rh Dr Andrew
Baron, Mr John Dunne, rh Philip Javid, rh Sajid Neill, Sir Robert
Bell, Aaron Eastwood, Mark Jenkin, Sir Bernard Nici, Lia
Benton, Scott Edwards, Ruth Jenkinson, Mark Nokes, rh Caroline
Beresford, Sir Paul Ellis, rh Michael Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Norman, rh Jesse
Bhatti, Saqib Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenrick, rh Robert O’Brien, Neil
Blackman, Bob Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, rh Boris Offord, Dr Matthew
Blunt, Crispin Eustice, George Johnson, Dr Caroline Opperman, Guy
Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth Parish, Neil
Bottomley, Sir Peter Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Bowie, Andrew Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark
Bradley, Ben Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Sir Mike
Bradley, rh Karen Farris, Laura Jones, Fay Penrose, John
Brady, Sir Graham Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew
Braverman, Suella Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon Philp, Chris
Brereton, Jack Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, rh Christopher
Bridgen, Andrew Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia Poulter, Dr Dan
Brine, Steve Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian Pow, Rebecca
Bristow, Paul Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian Prentis, Victoria
Britcliffe, Sara Fox, rh Dr Liam Kruger, Danny Pritchard, Mark
Brokenshire, rh James Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Quin, Jeremy
Browne, Anthony Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert Quince, Will
Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Latham, Mrs Pauline Randall, Tom
Buchan, Felicity Freer, Mike Leadsom, rh Andrea Redwood, rh John
Buckland, rh Robert Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob
Burghart, Alex Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian Richards, Nicola
Butler, Rob Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew Richardson, Angela
Carter, Andy Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Brandon Roberts, Rob
Cartlidge, James Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence
Cash, Sir William Gideon, Jo Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robinson, Mary
Cates, Miriam Glen, John Loder, Chris Rosindell, Andrew
Caulfield, Maria Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Rowley, Lee
Chalk, Alex Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco Russell, Dean
Chishti, Rehman Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Rutley, David
Chope, Sir Christopher Grant, Mrs Helen by Lee Rowley) Sambrook, Gary
Churchill, Jo Gray, James Lopresti, Jack Saxby, Selaine
Clark, rh Greg Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Scully, Paul
Clarke, Mr Simon Green, rh Damian Loughton, Tim Seely, Bob
Clarke, Theo Griffith, Andrew Mackinlay, Craig Selous, Andrew
Clarke-Smith, Brendan Griffiths, Kate Mackrory, Cherilyn Sharma, rh Alok
Clarkson, Chris Grundy, James Maclean, Rachel Shelbrooke, rh Alec
Cleverly, rh James Gullis, Jonathan Mak, Alan Skidmore, rh Chris
Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Halfon, rh Robert Malthouse, Kit Smith, Chloe
Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hall, Luke Mangnall, Anthony Smith, Greg
Colburn, Elliot Hammond, Stephen Mann, Scott Smith, Henry
Collins, Damian Hancock, rh Matt Marson, Julie Solloway, Amanda
Costa, Alberto Hands, rh Greg May, rh Mrs Theresa Spencer, Dr Ben
Courts, Robert Harper, rh Mr Mark Mayhew, Jerome Spencer, rh Mark
Coutinho, Claire Harris, Rebecca Maynard, Paul Stevenson, Jane
Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason Stevenson, John
Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl Stewart, Iain
Crosbie, Virginia Hayes, rh Sir John McPartland, Stephen Stride, rh Mel
Crouch, Tracey Heald, rh Sir Oliver McVey, rh Esther Sturdy, Julian
Daly, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Menzies, Mark Sunak, rh Rishi
Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Merriman, Huw Sunderland, James
Davies, Gareth Henry, Darren Metcalfe, Stephen Swayne, rh Sir Desmond
715 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 716
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Syms, Sir Robert Wallis, Dr Jamie Davison, Dehenna Hollinrake, Kevin
Thomas, Derek Warman, Matt Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip
Throup, Maggie Watling, Giles Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Adam
Timpson, Edward Webb, Suzanne Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul
Tolhurst, Kelly Whately, Helen Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, John
Tomlinson, Justin Whittaker, Craig Double, Steve Howell, Paul
Tomlinson, Michael Whittingdale, rh Mr John Dowden, rh Oliver Huddleston, Nigel
Tracey, Craig Wiggin, Bill Doyle-Price, Jackie Hudson, Dr Neil
Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Wild, James Drax, Richard Hughes, Eddie
Trott, Laura Williams, Craig Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Jane
Truss, rh Elizabeth Williamson, rh Gavin Duddridge, James Hunt, rh Jeremy
Tugendhat, Tom Wood, Mike Duguid, David Hunt, Tom
Vara, Mr Shailesh Wragg, Mr William Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jack, rh Mr Alister
Vickers, Martin Wright, rh Jeremy Dunne, rh Philip Javid, rh Sajid
Vickers, Matt Young, Jacob Eastwood, Mark Jenkin, Sir Bernard
Villiers, rh Theresa Zahawi, Nadhim Edwards, Ruth Jenkinson, Mark
Wakeford, Christian Ellis, rh Michael Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea
Tellers for the Noes:
Walker, Sir Charles Tom Pursglove and Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenrick, rh Robert
Walker, Mr Robin James Morris Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, rh Boris
Eustice, George Johnson, Dr Caroline
Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth
Question accordingly negatived. Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David
Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 62(2)), Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew
That the Bill be now read the Third time. Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David
Farris, Laura Jones, Fay
The House divided: Ayes 330, Noes 231. Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus
Division No. 14] [5.10 pm Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon
Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel
AYES Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia
Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian
Adams, Nigel Bristow, Paul Foster, Kevin Knight, Julian
Afolami, Bim Britcliffe, Sara Fox, rh Dr Liam Kruger, Danny
Afriyie, Adam Brokenshire, rh James Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi
Ahmad Khan, Imran Browne, Anthony Frazer, Lucy Largan, Robert
Aiken, Nickie Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Latham, Mrs Pauline
Aldous, Peter Buchan, Felicity Freer, Mike Leadsom, rh Andrea
Allan, Lucy Buckland, rh Robert Fuller, Richard Leigh, rh Sir Edward
Amess, Sir David Burghart, Alex Garnier, Mark Levy, Ian
Anderson, Lee Butler, Rob Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lewer, Andrew
Anderson, Stuart Carter, Andy Gibb, rh Nick Lewis, rh Brandon
Andrew, Stuart Cartlidge, James Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Ansell, Caroline Cash, Sir William Gideon, Jo Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Argar, Edward Cates, Miriam Glen, John Loder, Chris
Atherton, Sarah Caulfield, Maria Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark
Atkins, Victoria Chalk, Alex Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco
Bacon, Mr Gareth Chishti, Rehman Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast
Bacon, Mr Richard Chope, Sir Christopher Grant, Mrs Helen by Lee Rowley)
Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Churchill, Jo Gray, James Lopresti, Jack
cast y Leo Docherty) Clark, rh Greg Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan
Bailey, Shaun Clarke, Mr Simon Green, rh Damian Loughton, Tim
Baillie, Siobhan Clarke, Theo Griffith, Andrew Mackinlay, Craig
Baker, Duncan Clarke-Smith, Brendan Griffiths, Kate Mackrory, Cherilyn
Baker, Mr Steve Clarkson, Chris Grundy, James Maclean, Rachel
Baldwin, Harriett Cleverly, rh James Gullis, Jonathan Mak, Alan
Barclay, rh Steve Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Halfon, rh Robert Malthouse, Kit
Baron, Mr John Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hall, Luke Mangnall, Anthony
Bell, Aaron Colburn, Elliot Hammond, Stephen Mann, Scott
Benton, Scott Collins, Damian Hancock, rh Matt Marson, Julie
Beresford, Sir Paul Costa, Alberto Hands, rh Greg May, rh Mrs Theresa
Bhatti, Saqib Courts, Robert Harper, rh Mr Mark Mayhew, Jerome
Blackman, Bob Coutinho, Claire Harris, Rebecca Maynard, Paul
Blunt, Crispin Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Jason
Bone, Mr Peter Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Karl
Bottomley, Sir Peter Crosbie, Virginia Hayes, rh Sir John McPartland, Stephen
Bowie, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Heald, rh Sir Oliver McVey, rh Esther
Bradley, Ben Daly, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Menzies, Mark
Bradley, rh Karen Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Mercer, Johnny
Brady, Sir Graham Davies, Gareth Henry, Darren Merriman, Huw
Braverman, Suella Davies, Dr James Higginbotham, Antony Metcalfe, Stephen
Brereton, Jack Davies, Mims Hinds, rh Damian Millar, Robin
Bridgen, Andrew Davies, Philip Hoare, Simon Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Brine, Steve Davis, rh Mr David Holden, Mr Richard Milling, Amanda
717 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 718
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Mills, Nigel Skidmore, rh Chris Butler, Dawn Hayes, Helen
Mohindra, Gagan Smith, Chloe Byrne, Ian Hendrick, Sir Mark
Moore, Damien Smith, Greg Byrne, rh Liam Hendry, Drew
Moore, Robbie Smith, Henry Cadbury, Ruth Hillier, Meg
Mordaunt, rh Penny Solloway, Amanda Callaghan, Amy Hobhouse, Wera
Morris, Anne Marie Spencer, Dr Ben Cameron, Dr Lisa Hollern, Kate
Morris, David Spencer, rh Mark Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hopkins, Rachel
Morrissey, Joy Stevenson, Jane Carden, Dan Hosie, Stewart
Morton, Wendy Stevenson, John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Huq, Dr Rupa
Mullan, Dr Kieran Stewart, Iain Chamberlain, Wendy Hussain, Imran
Mumby-Croft, Holly Stride, rh Mel Chapman, Douglas Jardine, Christine
Mundell, rh David Sturdy, Julian Charalambous, Bambos Johnson, Dame Diana
Murray, Mrs Sheryll Sunak, rh Rishi Cherry, Joanna Johnson, Kim
Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Sunderland, James Clark, Feryal Jones, Darren
Neill, Sir Robert Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Cooper, Daisy Jones, Gerald
Nici, Lia Syms, Sir Robert Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Ruth
Nokes, rh Caroline Thomas, Derek Corbyn, rh Jeremy Jones, Sarah
Norman, rh Jesse Throup, Maggie Cowan, Ronnie Kane, Mike
O’Brien, Neil Timpson, Edward Coyle, Neil Keeley, Barbara
Offord, Dr Matthew Tolhurst, Kelly Crawley, Angela Kendall, Liz
Opperman, Guy Tomlinson, Justin Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Khan, Afzal
Parish, Neil Tomlinson, Michael cast by Peter Kyle) Kinnock, Stephen
Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tracey, Craig Cryer, John Kyle, Peter
Pawsey, Mark Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Cummins, Judith Lake, Ben
Penning, rh Sir Mike Trott, Laura Cunningham, Alex Lammy, rh Mr David
Penrose, John Truss, rh Elizabeth Daby, Janet Law, Chris
Percy, Andrew Tugendhat, Tom Davey, rh Sir Edward Lewis, Clive
Philp, Chris Vara, Mr Shailesh David, Wayne Linden, David
Pincher, rh Christopher Vickers, Martin Davies, Geraint Lloyd, Tony
Poulter, Dr Dan Vickers, Matt Davies-Jones, Alex Long Bailey, Rebecca
Pow, Rebecca Villiers, rh Theresa Day, Martyn Lucas, Caroline
Prentis, Victoria Wakeford, Christian De Cordova, Marsha Lynch, Holly
Pritchard, Mark Walker, Sir Charles Debbonaire, Thangam MacAskill, Kenny
Quin, Jeremy Walker, Mr Robin Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh MacNeil, Angus Brendan
Quince, Will Wallis, Dr Jamie Docherty-Hughes, Martin Madders, Justin
Randall, Tom Warman, Matt Dodds, Anneliese Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Redwood, rh John Watling, Giles Doogan, Dave Mahmood, Shabana
Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Webb, Suzanne Dorans, Allan Malhotra, Seema
Richards, Nicola Whately, Helen Doughty, Stephen Maskell, Rachael
Richardson, Angela Whittaker, Craig Dowd, Peter Matheson, Christian
Roberts, Rob Whittingdale, rh Mr John Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve
Robertson, Mr Laurence Wiggin, Bill Duffield, Rosie McCarthy, Kerry
Robinson, Mary Wild, James Eagle, Ms Angela McDonagh, Siobhain
Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Craig Eagle, Maria McDonald, Andy
Rowley, Lee Williamson, rh Gavin Eastwood, Colum McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
Russell, Dean Wood, Mike Edwards, Jonathan McDonald, Stuart C.
Rutley, David Wragg, Mr William Efford, Clive McDonnell, rh John
Sambrook, Gary Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat
Wright, rh Jeremy
Saxby, Selaine Elmore, Chris McGinn, Conor
Young, Jacob
Scully, Paul Eshalomi, Florence McGovern, Alison
Zahawi, Nadhim
Seely, Bob Esterson, Bill McKinnell, Catherine
Selous, Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Farron, Tim McLaughlin, Anne
Sharma, rh Alok Tom Pursglove and Farry, Stephen McMahon, Jim
Shelbrooke, rh Alec James Morris Ferrier, Margaret McMorrin, Anna
Fletcher, Colleen Mearns, Ian
Flynn, Stephen Miliband, rh Edward
NOES
Foxcroft, Vicky Mishra, Navendu
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Blackford, rh Ian Foy, Mary Kelly Monaghan, Carol
Ali, Rushanara Blackman, Kirsty Furniss, Gill Moran, Layla
Ali, Tahir Blake, Olivia Gibson, Patricia Morden, Jessica
Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Blomfield, Paul Gill, Preet Kaur Morgan, Mr Stephen
Amesbury, Mike Bonnar, Steven Grady, Patrick Murray, Ian
Anderson, Fleur Brabin, Tracy Grant, Peter Murray, James
Antoniazzi, Tonia Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gray, Neil Nandy, Lisa
Ashworth, Jonathan Brennan, Kevin Green, Kate Newlands, Gavin
Bardell, Hannah Brock, Deidre Greenwood, Lilian Nicolson, John
Barker, Paula Brown, Alan Greenwood, Margaret Norris, Alex
Beckett, rh Margaret Brown, Ms Lyn Griffith, Nia O’Hara, Brendan
Begum, Apsana Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Haigh, Louise Olney, Sarah
Benn, rh Hilary Bryant, Chris Hamilton, Fabian Onwurah, Chi
Betts, Mr Clive Buck, Ms Karen Hanna, Claire Oppong-Asare, Abena
Black, Mhairi Burgon, Richard Harris, Carolyn Osamor, Kate
719 European Union (Withdrawal 9 JANUARY 2020 European Union (Withdrawal 720
Agreement) Bill Agreement) Bill
Oswald, Kirsten Starmer, rh Keir This is a constitutional crisis. We will not and cannot
Owatemi, Taiwo Stephens, Chris accept what has been done to us. I say to the Prime
Owen, Sarah Stevens, Jo Minister and the Government—
Pennycook, Matthew Stone, Jamie
Phillips, Jess Streeting, Wes Hon. Members: Sit down.
Phillipson, Bridget Sultana, Zarah
Pollard, Luke Tami, rh Mark Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order.
Powell, Lucy Tarry, Sam
That was not me saying “Sit down.” The right hon.
Qureshi, Yasmin Thewliss, Alison
Rayner, Angela Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Member can finish his point briefly.
Reed, Mr Steve Thompson, Owen
Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Thomson, Richard
Ian Blackford: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
by Bambos Charalambous) Thornberry, rh Emily It is an important point. In the election in December,
Reeves, Rachel Timms, rh Stephen the people of Scotland stood by the Scottish National
Reynolds, Jonathan Twist, Liz party on the basis of our right to choose. We will not
Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Vaz, rh Valerie accept being taken out of the European Union, and I
Rimmer, Ms Marie Webbe, Claudia say to the Prime Minister, “Respect democracy. Respect
Rodda, Matt West, Catherine the election result. Respect the right of the people of
Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Whitehead, Dr Alan Scotland to choose our future.” We will have our
Saville Roberts, rh Liz Whitford, Dr Philippa referendum, Prime Minister, and Scotland will remain
Shah, Naz Whitley, Mick an independent European country.
Sharma, Mr Virendra Whittome, Nadia
Sheerman, Mr Barry Williams, Hywel Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the right hon.
Sheppard, Tommy Wilson, Munira Gentleman, but he knows and the House knows that
Siddiq, Tulip Winter, Beth
that was not a point of order but a point of debate. In
Slaughter, Andy Wishart, Pete
Yasin, Mohammad
the circumstances, I allowed him to make his point. I
Smith, Alyn
Zeichner, Daniel
am quite sure that he will find a way to continue the
Smith, Cat
debate, and that the Prime Minister will find a way to
Smith, Nick Tellers for the Noes: continue to answer the points he raises.
Smyth, Karin Jeff Smith and
Sobel, Alex Matt Western
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): On a point
of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You may not be
Question accordingly agreed to. aware that Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe, which employs
Bill read the Third time and passed. many of my constituents, has today announced that it is
making a third of the workforce redundant, meaning
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): On that 250 jobs are to be lost. The company says that the
a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a restructuring is not being taken lightly, but reflects the
historic moment for all of us. We must reflect on the need to remain competitive and put the factory on a
fact that this is the first time that a part of the Union—a more sustainable footing for the long term by winning
country of the Union—is having something done to it more manufacturing orders in the future. The lost jobs
that it resents. The Scottish Government and the Scottish could be the thin end of the wedge, as the announcement
National party made it clear over the past three and a could have a knock-on effect on jobs in the supply
half years that we were seeking to compromise and to chain. Do you know whether the Government intend to
ensure that what the people of Scotland voted for—staying make a statement on the job losses and on the action
in the European Union and our rights as EU citizens—was they plan to assist the company at this difficult time?
respected.
It was interesting that when the Secretary of State Madam Deputy Speaker: I have heard the hon.
summed up the debate today, he made no reference to Gentleman’s point of order. I deduce that what he is
my colleagues’ powerful speeches about that desire for really saying is that he wishes to bring a Minister to the
our rights to be respected and the fact that we do not Dispatch Box to answer his eloquently made point. I
consent, under any circumstances, to the people of suggest that, at the beginning of next week, perhaps by
Scotland and our country being taken out of the European way of an urgent question or some other means, he will
Union against our will. Let us make no mistake: that is find a way to ensure that this important issue, which I
exactly what is happening. Yesterday, the Scottish am sure the House appreciates matters enormously in
Parliament voted overwhelmingly not to give its consent. his constituency, is discussed properly in the Chamber.
721 9 JANUARY 2020 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 722
Rules
Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT Rules The problem manifests itself in a number of ways.
First, a decade of underinvestment in our health service
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House has led to NHS trusts desperately trying to recover
do now adjourn.—(Iain Stewart.) whatever finances might be possible. Some of the VAT
rules and debates go back decades. I hope the Minister
5.33 pm does not rise to say that the last Labour Government
used rules to involve the private sector and are responsible
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to for some of this, and I respond by saying that it all
see you in the Chair for this debate, Madam Deputy started under Margaret Thatcher’s outsourcing, and we
Speaker. simply do not help anyone. I hope we can be more
I am pleased to have been granted this debate at a helpful than that. That was the last comment I had
significant time in Parliament, following this evening’s back, so I am just stemming that off at the pass.
votes. I hope to shed some light on how complicated The real explosion in this issue came from the direction
VAT rules, which have evolved over time in the NHS, of the coalition Government and the creation of
are now creating incentives for trusts to behave contrary contracted-out services regulations. The HMRC manual
to the Government’s objectives, in particular those relating “VAT Government and Public Bodies”, from 2012,
to capital investment and the implementation of the states:
long-term plan.
“Government departments and health authorities have been
I am pleased to see the Minister for Health here to encouraged to contract out services to the private sector which
answer the debate. My expertise in the finer aspects of would have traditionally been performed in-house”—
taxation policy and its operation is fairly limited, and I
do not believe that he is a tax expert either, but before over many decades.—
I came to this place I spent most of my professional life “It is recognised that many of these services would be subject to
as an NHS manager so I know a lot about planning and VAT and where they were acquired for ’non-business’ purposes,
the non-reclaimable VAT could act as a disincentive to contracting-
delivering health services, including new hospitals. The out.”
Minister has clear policy objectives as the Government
work to implement the NHS plan, which is predicated That was then the policy of the Government. The
on place-based commissioning and improved capital manual continues:
infrastructure. I believe that, as the Minister for Health, “It was therefore decided to compensate government departments
he has an obligation to support NHS leaders by providing and health authorities by a direct refund mechanism, which is
greater clarity on how the rules operate. Indeed, the provided for in section 41(3) of the VAT Act 1994. Under this
Office of Tax Simplification agrees with me that this is a provision, the Treasury issues a Direction, commonly known as
the ’Contracting Out Direction’ which lists both the government
problem, with its 2017 report recording frustration departments and health authorities that are eligible to claim
“about a number of cases where the VAT position was unclear…with refunds of VAT, and the services on which VAT can be refunded.”
HMRC and government tendering departments having differing
interpretations.” For lay people, myself included, that in essence means
that under these regulations full VAT could be recovered
It noted that on the cost of a managed service which provided premises
“VAT liabilities should be clearly outlined during the tendering that could be used for delivering healthcare. Of course,
process for public services and contracts.” the private sector was pleased, as it meant it could now,
The Government also appear to agree, and the spring as it saw it, compete on a level playing field with the
statement announced a policy paper, although it was public sector. But really we should view any tax breaks
vague on details. The announcement was for: or loopholes with extreme suspicion, as they lead to
“A policy paper exploring a potential reform to VAT refund reduced revenue for the Exchequer. There should always
rules for central government, with the aim of reducing administrative be a compelling public interest for any tax breaks or
burdens and improving public sector productivity.” loopholes. After this direction and as austerity has
The 2019 OTS update noted that that spring statement bitten, more and more complex arrangements have
had involved a commitment to been set up.
“a policy paper on VAT Simplification and the public sector”. Following the OTS 2017 report, I am sure many in
It is essential to raise this issue now, because as we the accounting departments across the public sector
move towards implementing the NHS plan we all need were relieved to hear last year’s spring statement, when
to understand exactly how the Government will allocate the then Chancellor announced a consultation on VAT
the necessary funding for hospital improvements and in the public sector. This could mean a potential reform
other infrastructure projects. The potential of VAT to VAT refund rules to reduce administration and improve
savings will increasingly become a major consideration public sector productivity. However, concerningly, the
for trusts up and down the country. Capital investment language of the spring statement, and the background
is always to be welcomed and it is long overdue. Whether to it, appear to suggest a widening of VAT refunds for
we think we will have 40 or six new hospitals, my those engaged in services—that, again, is reducing the
sympathies are with the finance directors and managers amount of VAT paid by public sector contractors back
in trusts who are faced with the task of maximising to the Treasury. I am worried that the Treasury are
these investments, and managing the competing interests going to make the situation worse.
of recruiting and retaining staff, developing integrated My good colleague in the other place, Lord Hunt,
local health systems and securing local public trust in followed up on the whereabouts of the review in October,
their plans. It is my belief that the underlying problem when he asked for an update on the review’s progress.
here is that the priorities of Her Majesty’s Revenue and He was told by the Earl of Courtown to expect a policy
Customs and the Department of Health and Social paper for public consultation “in the coming months”. I
Care are not in alignment. know we have all been busy, but the world awaits and it
723 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 9 JANUARY 2020 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 724
Rules Rules
[Karin Smyth] Although in the short term it appears that individual
trusts will gain through tax advantages offered by the
would be helpful if the Minister provided the House wholly owned companies, other trusts will not, and it
with an update on that review, either tonight or in means less VAT for the Treasury. But the Treasury
writing afterwards. seems unconcerned about the lost income. The practice
is not a strategic, collaborative or positive solution to
The area of VAT avoidance that has attracted a great
the problems that trusts face, and it is not about better
deal of attention, and that myself and many colleagues—
employment. The NHS has agreed national terms and
including my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Liz
conditions for a good reason: because overall it works.
Twist)—visited the Treasury to talk about last year, is
All these schemes try to undermine the national agreements
the establishment of wholly owned companies in NHS
and offer staff less favourable terms to save money.
trusts. Such companies can be seen up and down the
country, from Northumberland to Yeovil. They vary Having two-tier workforces is not a good way to
greatly between those that try to remain part of the progress. A few years ago, I made that point successfully
NHS and those that position themselves as separate in my own area of Bristol. The North Bristol NHS
corporate businesses only loosely connected to patients Trust, which was at the time under considerable financial
and the public. Most are set up to deliver a full range of pressure, was considering adopting a wholly owned
facilities management services—including cleaning, catering, company but, following local discussions, including with
porters and security—and then charge the parent trust Unison, it recognised that in the local, highly competitive
for this managed service on a private finance initiative-style market for staff, at a time when the trust needed to start
unitary fee basis. to collaborate on service development, it needed not to
We have heard that, to avoid charges of tax avoidance, outsource. The creation of a second and third-tier workforce
which created a degree of media discussion, the new made no sense operationally and gave the wrong messages
arrangements are supposed to be better from a service- to staff and the public about valuing the all-important
delivery point of view. Ostensibly, they are solving workforce across the entire Bristol health economy, so
problems with estates and facilities management and the trust did not do it.
how staff are managed, but there is no evidence of that. As I touched on in my opening remarks, the controversy
In every case, almost all the benefits, some of which are over VAT and how it applies in the NHS is relevant to
considerable financial benefits for the trust, appear to infrastructure investment, because the temptation for
come from tax changes, not service improvements. Many the trusts set to benefit from the new capital—I accept
of the schemes have resulted in thousands of NHS staff that there is new capital, and that is good—will be to
being taken out of the NHS and transferred against avoid paying VAT to reduce significantly the direct
their will into wholly owned subsidiaries. This increases ongoing costs. That is why it is so important that the
fragmentation, and there are examples of companies Government give careful consideration to how the
falling out with their parent trust. There are also arguments investment is going to be made.
about which organisation is responsible for what and
who pays. I believe the choices made by the Government on this
Far worse is that in some cases the use of a separate issue will reflect how well they understand both the
company is used to undermine national agreements on importance of the NHS estate itself, as part of the
terms and conditions. Around 50 such proposals have health ecosystem, and the direction of the long-term
been progressed or are in the pipeline, and it is highly plan. I cannot emphasise enough—and I do think hon.
worrying that they were advanced in secret, without Members understand this—that capital is not a technical,
consultation with patients or the workforce involved. dry subject, but is crucial to the delivery of quality
When freedom of information requests were made for healthcare. It is not a burden on the system. It is time
access to the business cases that sought to justify the for us all to show we understand that we need a joined-up
changes, trade unions and others were denied access, strategy and proper investment.
with claims that the information was commercial and The thing I kept at the forefront of my mind as an
confidential. NHS manager, and do so now as a local representative,
Just this week, The Pharmaceutical Journal reported is that the health service is wholly funded by the taxpayer,
that 34% of trusts had outsourced their pharmacy and the public have a great attachment to people and
service to a commercial firm and 16% have created place when engaging with healthcare. Buildings are so
wholly owned subsidiaries. The practice is now widespread. much more than a pile of bricks of which to sweat the
Despite that, the recent examples at the Bradford Trust assets, or empty vessels to lease for maximum return.
and the Frimley Health Trust have been vigorously Buildings really are a physical manifestation of local
opposed, particularly by Unison, and it appears that people’s love for and connection to their local health
both proposed schemes have been stopped. That is service. Local people are not over-concerned with how
good news for thousands of low-paid staff who wish to services are developed, but they do not expect their
remain NHS employees. health service to behave in such a way as to constantly
try to exploit tax loopholes or penalise staff.
Thanks to the considerable pressure put on NHS
Improvement, trusts must now in effect ask for permission For 15 years or so I have been a supporter of the
before they create a subsidiary company, although far concept of place-based commissioning, by which I mean
from being a device to prevent the practice, the seeking local collaboration across the public sector, making
of permission appears more like a scheme to embellish good use of the publicly owned estate to deliver quality
some badly written business cases so that the changes health services and maximising the value of the taxpayer’s
can go ahead with a veneer of justification. Under some pound. Place-based commissioning has been the direction
pressure, that process is being reviewed. of travel for some time. It was knocked off course by
725 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 9 JANUARY 2020 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 726
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the Health and Social Care Act 2012, but there is hope legal advice. How they are funded is a separate debate,
of getting it back on track once the long-term plan is in but if HMRC changed GPs’ status, it would increase
place. the risk that GPs would not be willing to work and
I understand that the setting up of a subsidiary might would increase the cost to the NHS. Both of these have
make sense in the short term for individual trusts, but it a negative impact on NHS services, reducing GP capacity
makes no sense for the wider health economy or the at a time when we need more, and costing more, which
whole NHS. We must move from a competitive, short-term, will ultimately lead to a greater cost for the Treasury.
market-driven approach at a micro level to a collaborative The priority has to be on patient safety and care, and
approach focused on overall gains. The logic of the VAT the provider, BrisDoc, has continued to fight for this
exploitation and WOCs practice is based on the old idea focus in order to maintain the best possible level of GP
of trusts having autonomy, behaving like businesses and availability. However, HMRC states that its focus is
competing, but this is out of date and directly at odds simply on “employment status” and not any wider
with the NHS plan, which is built around place-based implications of any change, whereas NHS England
solutions like sustainability and transformation partnerships indicates that it cannot get involved with determining
and integrated care schemes. On the contrary, the employment status for GPs, who are an essential part of
fundamental principle underpinning these initiatives the NHS workforce. This leaves BrisDoc vulnerable to
and the Government’s own strategy is much greater financial and workforce loss while doing everything
collaboration across the system, which absolutely includes possible to maintain the service. Its plea, and my plea
the use of buildings and any capital investment. on behalf of my constituents, is this: can the overall
Another example of what those running the health strategy for the GP workforce be reviewed to ensure
service are trying to grapple with is GP commissioning that the key priorities and objectives are aligned with
and the new primary care networks. One of my last jobs regard to any change in employment status? It is
before coming to this place was running a GP unacceptable nonsense for it to spend five years between
commissioning group, so I understand how difficult it is the two Government Departments. Will the Minister be
to get practices to work together and align their businesses. willing to meet me and BrisDoc to better understand
Last summer the NHS published a document called the problem?
“The Primary Care Network Contract DES and VAT”, I hope that I have impressed on the Minister not only
referring to the way in which the health service funds the preposterous nature of this VAT problem but how
these proposals. The document sought to give guidance critical it is that we sort this loophole out now through
about VAT in the new primary care networks. The proper consultation with the NHS and an urgent publication
author goes to some pains to set out over several pages of the VAT review. Finance directors in particular need
what NHS England “expects” will be the best approach— the support to make decisions that align with the strategic
and then comes the following caveat: vision of the long-term plan, not that are at odds with
“Although we anticipate the VAT treatment to follow the above it. To do this, the guidance from HMRC and the policies
analysis it is not straightforward. Practices should note that HM of the Department of Health and Social Care must be
Revenue & Customs has not agreed the position described in this joined up. If the Government are, as they have indicated,
document and that they are the authority responsible for agreeing, supportive of the strategic direction of the NHS plan,
administering and collecting VAT.” then this must mean supporting local health economies
If the Government and NHS England are publishing to flourish through the collaborative partnerships integral
guidance on how to set up these new organisations to STPs and integrated care systems. They simply cannot
without really knowing how HMRC is going to treat work if trusts, and other delivery partners, are in competition
them, how on earth can we expect people in the frontline with each other.
to develop good services? After a decade of fairly imprudent underinvestment
Let me mention another issue, which is local to my and failing policy, we really are at a crossroads, and we
constituents and which I have been working on for need to get this right. If we can level the playing field for
some time: GP employment status. For the last five all trusts through proper funding, and consistent, sensible
years, HMRC has been reviewing the employment status VAT rules that do not divert time and effort from the
of GPs who provide NHS out-of-hours services, which objectives of the trusts to serve their local patient
are now called integrated urgent care services. During population, we could have every reason to be positive
this period, demand for GP services has risen and the about the potential of local place-based commissioning
need identified by NHS England for a substantial—that for success.
is, 5,000-plus—increase in the number of GPs has not
yet been met with wholetime equivalent resourcing. 5.51 pm
Based on arrangements in place since the formation of
the NHS, GPs have continued to work on a self-employed The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): Madam
basis, and this remains the desired option for many of Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to see you back in the
them. This has been the subject of some political debate Chair in your new role as Deputy Speaker and Chairman
over a number of years, but it is the position as people of Ways and Means.
understand it. I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol South
BrisDoc is a local GP organisation based in my (Karin Smyth) on securing this debate. I know this is an
constituency that provides urgent care services to the important subject for her, as she has raised it on many
NHS. It has been faced with five years of uncertainty occasions, but she is right that capital—the buildings
regarding its workforce because HMRC does not accept our NHS operates out of—is actually an important
the legitimacy of independent GPs working on a self- subject for all of us. While it is a shame that there are
employed basis, even though this correctly reflects the not many Members in the Chamber, I hope that quality
way services are contracted based on professional and makes up for a lack of quantity. That is certainly the
727 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 9 JANUARY 2020 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 728
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[Edward Argar] with further information. In the context of the forthcoming
call for evidence, I encourage her and others to contribute.
case with her speech, but it is a pleasure to see the hon. She has a lot of knowledge and expertise in this area,
Member for Blaydon (Liz Twist)—who, if I recall correctly, and I suspect that in encouraging her to contribute I am
held a debate on this subject almost a year ago—here as pushing at an open door, because she will certainly do
well. that. I know that the Financial Secretary will be pleased
The hon. Member for Bristol South was perhaps to hear from her.
being unduly modest in her opening remarks about her The hon. Lady focused in both her article and speech
knowledge of this subject and expertise in this area. on wholly owned subsidiaries, as did the hon. Member
While it is always a pleasure to see her speak about it, I for Blaydon in her debate a year ago. While there can be
always watch with a certain degree of trepidation, because VAT advantages of forming wholly owned subsidiary
she does know her subject extremely well. My knowledge companies, we are clear that they cannot and should
of VAT and tax rules is rather more limited. Although I not be set up for the purposes of VAT avoidance, and
spent a period of time as a member of a primary care we wrote to all provider trusts in September 2017 to
trust board many years ago, I suspect that my knowledge remind them of their clear tax responsibilities. I may
base will not be as deep as hers. However, I will endeavour provoke the hon. Member for Bristol South, given her
to respond to all the points she has made. I recognise plea earlier, by saying that the origins of this position
that the article she wrote that was published this morning date back to 2004, subsequently consolidated in the
on PoliticsHome highlights a number of these issues as National Health Service Act 2006, but she is right to
well. highlight the changes in the 2012 Act. The position has
I will start by addressing the capital investment evolved under Governments of both parties, but she is
programme that the Government have set out and the right to look at the future rather than where we have
impact of VAT on that, and then move on to the hon. come from.
Lady’s points about wholly owned subsidiaries and We expect all NHS providers to follow the guidance
some of her subsequent points. In respect of the VAT when considering any new arrangements or different
position with the new health infrastructure plan hospitals— ways of going down the wholly owned subsidiary route.
the new 40 hospitals we will be building—under the tax There can be advantages in that route, as my predecessor,
code VAT will be payable by hospital trusts involved in who is now the Brexit Secretary, set out, for employees
construction, reflecting that these are new builds and in terms of flexibility and choice. There can also be
we would expect the appropriate HMRC regulations to commercial advantages for the NHS bodies setting
be adhered to. However, as the hon. Lady touched on in them up, including things such as enabling providers to
setting out the background to the VAT rules, VAT employ staff on more flexible and, in some cases, more
chargeable on supplies of goods and services in the UK generous terms and conditions—I emphasise the words
is collected by HMRC on behalf of the Government, so “in some”; I see the hon. Member for Blaydon watching
all moneys received in that way are reinvested in public me carefully—as well as providing more efficient services
services. in some cases to other trusts, being able to attract staff
In addition, the funding provided for the 40 new from the local employment market and giving greater
hospital build projects and other capital schemes includes flexibility to the operation of that organisation.
provision for the VAT charged by the suppliers involved
in the developments. There may also be scope for an Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): The Minister said carefully
element of VAT reclaim on aspects of those projects, that “some” staff may be advantaged. Does he accept
which will be determined and calculated on a case-by-case that the vast majority of staff in low-paid jobs—often
basis and in line with VAT regulations and rules. The women—are not benefiting from this and are in fact
overall funding allocation for the HIP has been built up losing out in pension contributions? When we met
by overall cost estimates of the schemes, inclusive of Treasury Ministers last year, we were told that it was for
VAT. However, the final amount of VAT payable will be the Department of Health and Social Care to decide
determined once the individual schemes have been fully what its policy is. Will he now commit to redressing
scoped and costed. Current VAT rules will apply, and that?
VAT recovery will be assessed for each scheme in line
with the rules set out in section 41 of the Value Added Edward Argar: I thought I was going to provoke the
Tax Act 1994 and the Treasury’s “Contracting Out hon. Lady to intervene, but it is none the less a pleasure
Direction”. In broad terms, we have made allowance for that she has done so. She does highlight disparities, but
VAT within the estimated costs of those schemes. I would say that it is wrong to suggest—even taking out
As the hon. Lady noted, it was outlined in the spring wholly owned subsidiary companies within the NHS
statement of 2019 that longer-term plans are currently more broadly—that there is an exact commonality of
being considered by Her Majesty’s Treasury to review terms and conditions, pension arrangements and so on;
the section 41 VAT rules, to potentially either allow for there are differences already.
full VAT reclaim for NHS bodies on all their purchases What I will commit to do—I was going to mention
of goods and services or remove VAT reclaims entirely this at the end, but I will say it now—is that I am very
from them. The VAT review or policy paper will publish happy to meet both the hon. Lady and the hon. Member
a call for evidence in due course. While I know she for Bristol South to discuss this more broadly in the
would like me to give an exact date, I hope she will context of Department of Health and Social Care
forgive me for not making announcements that are responsibilities in the NHS, as well as the point the hon.
possibly more appropriate for Treasury Ministers to Lady made about self-employed GPs and independent
make. I will ensure that her request to know that date is GPs. I am very happy to have that meeting with them.
conveyed to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, We may have to revert to the Treasury at some time on
and I hope that he will be able to respond to her swiftly technical points, but I am very happy to have that
729 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 9 JANUARY 2020 Hospital Improvement Plans: VAT 730
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meeting. I am very conscious that, in the two minutes or I will conclude—with about a minute to go before
so I have left, there is a limit to how much I will be able you stop me, Madam Deputy Speaker—by saying I am
to say, but I am happy to pick up other points in that sorry that we do not have more time for this debate,
subsequent meeting. because it is an important debate. I am sorry there are
The hon. Lady is right about buildings. It is right that not more Members here because it is something that
we are building 40 new hospitals and that we are investing would benefit all Members to be involved in. I look
capital in our NHS infrastructure, but she is also right forward to any future such debates. I congratulate the
to say that, yes, we shape those buildings, but in talking hon. Lady on bringing this forward. She is right to
about place-based approaches, they shape us too and highlight this issue, and I hope she will take an active
they shape our communities, so it is absolutely right part in putting forward her views to the Treasury review
that we get this right. On place-based commissioning, I and call for evidence when that comes forward. As I say,
was a cabinet member on Westminster City Council for I very much look forward to continuing this discussion—if
many years—in the dim and distant past, when I had not on the Floor of the House, in a meeting
more hair and it was not grey—and I sat on the PCT at subsequently—and I hope and believe that we will be
the same time, and where it works for local circumstances, debating this at some point across the Floor of the
there are clearly opportunities there as well. However, I House in the near future.
do think that autonomy remains important, because Question put and agreed to.
while consistency and clarity are vital, so too is enabling
local autonomy to address local needs and specific local 6.2 pm
circumstances, and I think we need to be a little bit
House adjourned.
careful about that.
731 13 JANUARY 2020 732

House of Commons for homeless people from the wider region. What guarantees
can the Minister give that those pressures will be reflected
properly in the new funding formula?
Monday 13 January 2020
Luke Hall: Manchester City Council will receive a
£30.9 million increase in the provisional settlement—a
The House met at half-past Two o’clock 7% rise that includes 17.6% in additional adult social
care grant. Decisions on the future funding formula are
PRAYERS to be taken in the weeks ahead, but we will release some
provisional figures in the coming weeks for working
groups to look at.
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
Judith Cummins: If the Government are to deliver on
BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS their commitment to the north, combined authorities
must receive fair funding. The Government have promised
SESSIONAL RETURNS to level up throughout the country, so will the Minister
Ordered, confirm that in any new devolution deal funding for
That there be laid before this House Returns for Session 2019 West Yorkshire Combined Authority will match that of
of information and statistics relating to: any other combined authority, such as Greater Manchester,
(1) Business of the House on a per-head basis?
(2) Closure of Debate, Proposal of Question and Allocation of
Time (including Programme Motions) Luke Hall: Negotiations on the deal are ongoing,
(3) Sittings of the House but we are optimistic. We can confirm that Bradford
(4) Private Bills and Private Business
Council will receive an increase of £25.6 million in the
settlement—a 6.4% real-terms rise in core spending power
(5) Public Bills
on last year.
(6) Delegated Legislation and Legislative Reform Orders
(7) European Legislation, etc Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): One local
(8) Grand Committees government problem that is becoming more expensive is
(9) Panel of Chairs the repair and reopening of Hammersmith bridge. On
(10) Select Committees.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) that and the reopening of Harwood Terrace, will my
hon. Friend tell the London Borough of Hammersmith
and Fulham to get on with it so that we can get traffic
Oral Answers to Questions moving again in west London? Will my hon. Friend or
the Secretary of State agree to meet me to discuss the
matter?
HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL Luke Hall: My right hon. Friend has been working
GOVERNMENT hard on this issue on behalf of his constituents, and I
am happy to meet him to discuss it in the weeks ahead.
The Secretary of State was asked—
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): May I welcome the
Local Government Finance real-terms increase for local authorities over the next
two years, which is the result of our balanced approach
1. Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): What to the economy? Will my hon. Friend update the House
recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of on the steps his Department is taking to make councils
Government funding for local authorities in England. more efficient?
[900100]
Luke Hall: May I welcome my hon. Friend to his
13. Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): What place in the House? He is already looking to be a
recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of champion for his community. We are of course working
Government funding for local authorities in England. with local authorities to make sure that they can become
[900113]
more efficient, especially in respect of digital transformation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, My hon. Friend’s local authority and those throughout
Communities and Local Government (Luke Hall): Next the country will have access in the coming year to the
year’s settlement for local government responds to the 4.4% real-terms rise in core spending power.
pressures facing councils by providing access to the
largest year-on-year increase in spending power for a Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Happy
decade. Core spending power is expected to rise from new year to you, Mr Speaker.
£46.2 billion to £49.1 billion in 2020-21—an estimated It is 173 days—almost 25 weeks or almost six months—
4.4% real-terms increase. since the Secretary of State was appointed, so it is nice
that we finally have local government questions. With
Jeff Smith: Big-city authorities such as Manchester local government in crisis, children’s services, which are
have been hit hardest by the cuts at the same time as included in that, are also in crisis. According to the
they have had to deal with the extra costs of deprivation, Tory-led Local Government Association, the number of
such as high demand on social care budgets, poor children in care is up 28%, child protection plans are up
health, and homelessness, with big cities being magnets 53%, and there has been a staggering 139% increase in
733 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 734

serious cases. With the funding gap growing to £3.1 billion Robert Jenrick: I would be very happy to meet the
by 2025, sticking plasters will not do, so will the Minister hon. Gentleman. The recommendations of the commission
now commit finally to fix this crisis and ensure that his that we will publish shortly speak to all forms of housing,
Chancellor fully funds children’s services in future? including co-operative housing and social housing, where,
of course, there have been some fantastic examples of
Luke Hall: This is the best provisional local government good-quality design, not least the RIBA award-winning
settlement for almost 10 years: a 4.4% rise in real-terms new social homes in Norwich.
funding and a £2.9 billion increase in local government
spending. We propose to allow local authorities to set Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): The
council tax increases of up to 2%, and another 2% for question refers to simplifying the planning system, but
adult social care. It is a positive settlement and I hope one of its many complications is that there is no standard
the hon. Gentleman will support it in the weeks ahead. methodology for calculating five-year land supply. Will
the Government look at this and please address the
Building Better, Building Beautiful problem pretty quickly?

2. Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What Robert Jenrick: We will be giving that further thought.
steps he is taking to simplify the planning system and The Government are committed to bringing forward a
implement the Government’s Building Better, Building new White Paper on planning reform. I will work closely
Beautiful initiative. [900101] with the Chancellor to draw up those proposals, and I
would be very happy to speak with my hon. Friend and
take his views as we do so.
The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and
Local Government (Robert Jenrick): We want a planning
system that encourages beautiful development, guards John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): May I
against ugliness and is based on stewardship and place- welcome the Secretary of State back? Given the turnover
making. That is why we convened the Building Better, of Housing Ministers, I trust that his first oral questions
Building Beautiful Commission, which submitted its report in the post will not also be his last. The Conservatives’
to me in December. failure on planning is at the heart of their failure on
housing. Their permitted development loophole lets
May I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the
developers sidestep the planning rules and build modern-day
commission’s co-chair, Sir Roger Scruton, who died
slum housing. It has been in place for four years now, so
yesterday? Sir Roger was an intellectual giant, a brilliant
can he say whether the number of new affordable homes
writer and a fearless fighter for freedom, not least in
being built has gone up or down directly as a result of
eastern Europe, and he made a unique contribution to
this planning change?
public life.

Mrs Latham: I thank the Secretary of State for that Robert Jenrick: May I thank the right hon. Gentleman
answer, and I associate myself with his remarks about for his remarks? Permitted development rights are subject
Sir Roger Scruton. to a review, and we have consulted stakeholders. He is
right to say that there are some examples of poor
Will the Secretary of State confirm whether he will practice, and I will carefully consider the information
implement the Letwin review and whether his Department we have received before coming forward with proposals.
plans to capture development value to fund infrastructure Those rights have led to a large number of net additions
as well as encourage sustainable building with very that would not otherwise have been brought forward.
high-quality design? Will he meet me and a delegation That is important, and it is a contributing factor to the
from the Academy of Urbanism to discuss these ideas? fact that, last year, we delivered more homes than any
other for 30 years. Therefore, the planning reforms
Robert Jenrick: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. taken forward by my predecessors, which I will take
We are currently reviewing the recommendations of the forward with my new White Paper, have contributed to
commission and I shall respond in due course. I would getting the homes built in this country that we desperately
be very happy to meet her and representatives from the need.
Academy for Urbanism.
As regards capturing uplifts in land value, local planning John Healey: For the record, the number of new
authorities already use section 106 and the community social rented homes is at a near record low. Rather than
infrastructure levy to pay for crucial affordable housing the net additions that the Secretary of State talks about,
and infrastructure, and, as a result of changes we have the Conservative-led Local Government Association
made recently, there will shortly be greater transparency says that this policy has led directly to 13,500 fewer new
so that residents can see where this money is going. affordable homes. It hits at the heart of the Tory failure
on housing: the rules are loosened so that big builders
Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I have profit while renters and buyers on ordinary incomes
absolutely no idea whether co-operative housing is likely lose out. Every Conservative MP should know that they
to benefit from the Government’s Building Better, Building have lost the argument on housing. With Ipsos MORI
Beautiful initiative, but by my definition it certainly showing a 17 point lead for Labour over the Conservatives
should. Would the Secretary of State be willing to meet on housing, people know the country has a housing
me and a small delegation from the co-op housing crisis and they know the Conservatives are failing to fix
movement to see whether there can be a replication here it. The Secretary of State had nothing to say on housing
in the UK of the successes that co-ops have had in the at the election, so what will the Government now do
US in housing veterans and other people? differently to win public confidence on housing?
735 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 736

Robert Jenrick: The right hon. Gentleman is on Robert Jenrick: I welcome my hon. Friend to the House.
dangerous ground talking about the general election. We want to see new homes built as soon as possible
He managed to take one of Labour’s safest seats to a once planning permission is granted. She is right to
marginal seat, and his colleague—the other shadow refer to the previous housing White Paper, and this
Secretary of State—was the co-ordinator of the Labour matter will be an important element of the forthcoming
party’s general election campaign. The facts speak for planning White Paper. Developers and authorities should
themselves: last year we built more homes in this country be working closely together locally to deliver this, and I
than in any other year for 30 years; we built 1 million will look at whatever is necessary, including amending
homes in the last Parliament and will build at least legislation, to ensure that we build the homes this
1 million homes in the next Parliament; more affordable country needs, and that we do so quickly.
homes were built under this Conservative Government
than under the last Labour Government; and we built Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): The climate emergency
more council houses last year than in the 13 years of the is real and we need to tackle it. Building new homes to a
last Labour Government. net zero standard must be at the heart of the solution.
What action are this new Government going to take?
New Homes
Robert Jenrick: The hon. Lady is absolutely right.
We have committed to the future homes standard,
4. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What steps his which means that no new home will be built in this
Department is taking to reduce the time taken to build country from 2025 unless it has the highest levels of
new homes. [900103]
energy efficiency, and low or zero-carbon heating. We
are consulting on that and further proposals will be
12. Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What brought forward shortly, meaning that planning applications
steps his Department is taking to reduce the time taken will be made very shortly for those homes to be delivered
to build new homes. [900111] post 2025. This will be a major change in the delivery of
homes across the country, and a very welcome one.
The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and
Local Government (Robert Jenrick): We have delivered Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Thousands of
more than 1.5 million new homes since 2010 and last new homes are due to be built at Maghull in my
year saw the highest level of delivery in over 30 years, constituency. The developers are reluctant to build an
but there is more to do. Later this year I will publish a access road, which means that construction traffic will
White Paper on planning reform, an objective of which now have to use totally unsuitable residential and rural
will be a simpler and faster system for the benefit of roads. The experience in Maghull is all too typical.
everyone, including homeowners, and small and medium- Does this not just show the problems with the planning
sized builders. system that favour developers over existing communities?

Mark Pawsey: Conservative-led Rugby Borough Council Robert Jenrick: I am happy to look into the instance
has ambitious plans for social housing in Rugby, replacing that the hon. Gentleman raises. These matters are usually
unpopular old tower blocks with new, traditional housing. dealt with by councils in the planning conditions that
How can the Minister help the council to get on with they choose to set. The role in this for central Government
this as quickly as possible? In particular, what discussions is ensuring that infrastructure flows first—that was one
has he had with Treasury colleagues about the interest of our manifesto commitments—so that GP surgeries,
rate available from the Public Works Loan Board for roads and schools flow at an appropriate time. We are
projects such as this, which provide a very clear social going to take that forward. In the previous Parliament
benefit? we created the housing infrastructure fund, which was a
huge success and has delivered billions of pounds of
Robert Jenrick: We want to build more homes of all infrastructure. We have committed to create a new
types. We have delivered 464,000 new affordable homes version of that, which the Chancellor and I will be
since 2010, and we have abolished the housing revenue announcing shortly and will be larger and longer-term
account cap and established a five-year rent deal. Councils than its predecessor.
can secure grant funding from the existing affordable
homes programme, and I am pleased to say that Rugby Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): It is a pleasure to see you
Borough Council is benefiting from that. In our manifesto, in your Chair, Mr Speaker.
we said that we would create a successor to the affordable I thank the Secretary of State for recently visiting
homes programme that is at least as generous. Finance Telford. It was very much appreciated that he came to
from the Public Works Loan Board plays an important a new-build development where we have been having
role in these investments. In October the Treasury made some difficult issues. As a new town, Telford experiences
an extra £10 billion of lending available, and the interest a very rapid rate of house building that can be overwhelming
rate remains very favourable, returning only to 2018 for communities and for local services. What steps is his
levels. Department taking to ensure good practice by developers
and adequate local services for residents?
Sally-Ann Hart: The housing White Paper provided
that developers should start to build within two years of Robert Jenrick: It was a pleasure to visit Telford—a
securing planning permission. Will the Minister update town that, as my hon. Friend knows, I know well. Telford
the House on what progress has been made to ensure is one of the fastest-growing towns in the country. While
that developers build the homes we need and do not sit there are many examples of good-quality development
on land? —she took me to Lightmoor Village, being built with
737 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 738

the Bournville Village Trust—there have been examples, SNP Government in Scotland have built 80% more
on which she has fought for her constituents, of poor-quality affordable housing per head of population than England
development. Developers need to build high-quality, and twice as much as Wales. When will the British
well-designed and safe homes, and we will take the steps Government catch on to the fact that the housing crisis
necessary to ensure that they do. One step we are taking will not be solved unless they invest adequately in social
forward is the creation of a new homes ombudsman, rented housing?
which has been led in recent months by—now—my
hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mrs Elphicke). We Esther McVey: Obviously, this is a devolved matter,
will put that on a statutory footing in due course. but I want to look at what this Government have done.
We have delivered many more affordable homes—nearly
Council Homes 460,000. That is what this Government are all about—
ensuring that people have the homes they need when
5. Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/ they need them. We are looking to extend all types of
Co-op): What assessment he has made of trends in the home. We are tenure-blind, and we are delivering more
level of new council homes since 2010. [900104] homes.

The Minister for Housing (Esther McVey): Councils David Linden: That is all good and well, but there is
built 26,185 affordable homes between 2010-11 and no point when the Conservative party manifesto commits
2018-19, up from just 2,994 over the previous 13 years to promoting and extending the right to buy—one of
under a Labour Administration. We are giving councils Margaret Thatcher’s biggest disasters in terms of policy.
the tools to deliver a new generation of council housing. In Scotland, we ended the right to buy, protecting
In 2018, we lifted the borrowing caps for councils to existing social rented homes and preventing the sale of
deliver 10,000 new homes a year by 2021-22. 15,500 homes over a decade. Why can the Minister not
see and understand that it is totally senseless to build
Lloyd Russell-Moyle: But last year 6,287 homes for new social housing, only to flog it off afterwards?
social rent were built and 10,000 were lost due to right
to buy and other conversions. That was a loss of 4,000 social Esther McVey: We believe in home ownership. The
rented homes in our country. Is it not time, first, that right to buy has helped 2 million people get on the
the Government used net figures rather than these housing ladder. Since 2010, nearly 600,000 households
fantasy “built” figures; and, secondly, that we really have been helped to purchase a home through either
reviewed right to buy, allowing councils good conditions right to buy or help to buy, and we are ensuring that the
and restrictions where there are areas of stress and money from the right to buy is helping more homes to
ensuring that the discount carries on rather than just be built. In fact, we have sold 119,000 homes, which has
being pocketed by the individual? helped to build 140,000 more homes. That is what we
will continue to do—allow people to own their own
Esther McVey: The hon. Gentleman will be pleased homes and support all people at every stage of life in
to know that we are consulting on right to buy to see every home they need.
what we can do with the sales receipts. Let me say what
this Government have done to support councils in Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): The Minister is
building. We increased to £9 billion the size of the completely right that the housing supply jigsaw has
affordable homes programme to which councils can many pieces, so we will continue to pump billions of
apply. We have reintroduced social rents. We have removed pounds into housing associations such as Walsall Housing
the HRA borrowing caps for local authorities and given Group in my constituency, which has an innovative
£2 billion to housing authorities to help with the ability partnership with Lovell to build 250 mixed tenure houses
to increase purchases and build by councils. So this on the former Caparo engineering works, a brownfield
Government are doing far more. Under this Government, site. Is that the future?
social housing has gone up by 79,000, but in the previous
13 years under Labour it fell by 420,000. Esther McVey: It certainly is. My hon. Friend hits the
nail on the head, and he has a lot of expertise in this
Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): There are currently area. As I have said, our party is tenure-blind, and we
over 20,000 people on the council housing waiting list in help people along the steps to ownership, to get the
Cornwall, yet we are in the ridiculous situation where house they need at the time they need it, knowing that
private pension providers can invest in business development most people want to own their own home.
but not in residential development. Will the Secretary of
State look at making representations to the Treasury to Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): It is the aspiration
allow pension providers to invest in social residential of every individual in this country to own their own
housing? home, but many local authorities that have built council
housing have deliberately set up housing companies to
Esther McVey: My hon. Friend makes a very good frustrate the right to buy. Will my right hon. Friend
suggestion. That is exactly what the Secretary of State look at outlawing that practice, so that people who are
will be looking at—how we get that investment into the tenants in their homes get the right to buy and own
housing structure. Under this Government, council housing their own home?
waiting lists have come down by nearly half a million.
Esther McVey: We will look closely at anybody who is
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): If the Minister frustrating people’s dream and desire to own their own
is keen to talk about what is happening elsewhere, she home. We will continue with the right to buy. We will
will be interested to know that in the last five years, the look at how those receipts are being used, so that we can
739 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 740

maximise the new homes being built. Under Labour, Government’s drive to recruit 20,000 police officers
170 right-to-buy receipts bought one new home. Now, across the country, 62 are already being recruited in his
we are getting more homes built through the right to force area. I am very happy to work with him and
buy, and having sold 119,000 homes, we have built discuss it with him in the weeks ahead.
140,000 more.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is with
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): The great regret that Humberside’s Labour police and crime
Conservatives’ deep cuts to new council and social commissioner allowed Winterton police station to close.
housing are part of the reason why homelessness has In contrast to that, Conservative-run North Lincolnshire
risen so rapidly over the last 10 years. Every day, hundreds and East Riding of Yorkshire Councils have funded a
of us see the increasing number of homeless people and very innovative safe and sound grant to help elderly
their belongings in Westminster station and outside this residents to stay safe in their home with free security. Is
building, but their plight is the same as that of thousands not the real challenge that simply not enough councils
of others across the country who find themselves trying and police forces are working closely enough together
to find somewhere dry and safe to sleep. Does the to share resources, and will the Minister do more to
Minister accept that, if the Tories had simply continued ensure that they do?
building social rented homes at the level left by Labour,
there would now be 200,000 more social rented homes Luke Hall: I thank my hon. Friend for that question.
for those who need them, including those who are He raises a really important point about the need for
homeless on Parliament’s doorstep? councils and police forces to work together. I commend
the work that his Conservative police and crime
Esther McVey: What we all know is that, for a long commissioner is doing, and I highlight the Government’s
period, demand has outstripped supply. That is why this commitment to recruit 20,000 police officers across our
Government are building more homes, with more homes country, with 6,000 police officers being recruited in the
built in the last year than in the last 30 years. We have next year.
delivered 1.5 million more homes since 2010, and we
will continue to do that. Of course, we have also brought
Leasehold Property
in initiatives for rough sleeping and homeless people.
We have to be fully aware of that, and this Conservative
Government are doing a lot more to help those people. 7. Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab):
What plans the Government have to bring forward
Local Government Funding: Crime and Disorder legislative proposals to reform leasehold property.
[900106]
6. Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): What recent
discussions he has had with the Home Secretary on the The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and
effect of reductions in funding for local government on Local Government (Robert Jenrick): We are committed
levels of crime and disorder. [900105] to reforming the leasehold market so that it is fairer
for consumers and the abuses that we have seen in
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, recent years are addressed. To achieve this, we have a
Communities and Local Government (Luke Hall): This comprehensive programme of reform, and we are moving
Department has ongoing discussions with the Home forward with legislation, beginning with the Bill set out
Office on multiple issues, including tackling crime. The in the Queen’s Speech banning new leasehold houses
provisional local government finance settlement confirmed and reducing ground rents on future leases to zero.
an increase of £2.9 billion in resources for local government
this year. This Government are also providing targeted Dr Huq: The Secretary of State says he is committed
funding support for partnership working between the to reform. Since 2015, I have come across countless
police, councils and other partners. cases of people trapped on iniquitous terms in relation
to ground rent, cladding—you name it—and unable to
Daniel Zeichner: The front five pages of the Cambridge extend without paying through the nose. In that same time,
News today detail a series of knife crime incidents, drug however, the Government have had seven consultations,
dealing and general social disorder, which is causing and there is no concrete legislation about anything they
huge concern to my constituents. When I talk to the are actually going to do. Can he tell us when he will end
police about it, they tell me that one of the key reasons this feudal hangover, which is unique to England, once
is the cuts to all those preventive, early intervention and for all?
services that have happened over the last few years. Can
the Government today please look again at those cuts Robert Jenrick: The hon. Lady is incorrect. The Queen’s
to local government? They are not cost-effective; they Speech made it clear that we will be bringing forward
are costing us more and causing huge crime levels and legislation. We intend to publish a draft Bill shortly,
misery. which will take the first steps that I have just described.
We are also awaiting the next report of the Law
Luke Hall: I genuinely thank the hon. Gentleman for Commission. We have just received one on enfranchisement.
raising this issue. I know that he raises crime in his It is a very important issue, and I certainly want to take
constituency regularly in the House, including in his forward its recommendations to ensure a simpler and
Westminster Hall debate late last year. The real-terms fairer system. The next report of the Law Commission
increase in the funding settlement for next year does will be on commonhold. Again, we will be paying close
recognise the critical services that councils are delivering, attention to that. At our encouragement, the Competition
including keeping communities safe. As part of the and Markets Authority is now looking into the mis-selling
741 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 742

of leaseholds, which is another important issue. Be under Robert Jenrick: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s
no illusion: we will be taking forward leasehold reform, remarks, and the north-west has been particularly badly
and soon. affected by this. The statistics suggest that new-build
homes in the north-west peaked at as high as 71% of all
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I thank new homes being built in 2017—in the first quarter of
the Secretary of State and his predecessors for the work that year. That has now fallen very considerably as a
they have done in commissioning work from the Law result of the actions and the statements of this Government
Commission that will provide a guide to the way forward. and the general anger across this House and across the
May I put it to the Secretary of State that, as his country at the abuses; that has now fallen to as low as
representatives at the all-party group meeting last week 8%, but we will be legislating and we will outlaw these
will confirm, there is a whole range of strong issues—the practices.
hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq)
mentioned them—and that the Government, the Select High Streets
Committee and the whole House need to make sure
there is action, not just good intentions?
8. Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster)
(Con): What recent assessment he has made of the
Robert Jenrick: I thank the Father of the House for effectiveness of his Department’s support for high streets.
the work he has done over many years on this issue. I [900107]
campaigned on this before I became a Minister. I have
seen a number of abuses with respect to leasehold 9. Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): What recent
properties, and we want to take action. Now is the time assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his
for action. We have the first report from the Law Department’s support for high streets. [900108]
Commission. There will be a further one. There will
then be the report from the CMA. Together with the 11. Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con):
evidence, we will take this into careful consideration What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness
and move forward to reform leasehold and put it on a of his Department’s support for high streets. [900110]
more sustainable footing for the future.
15. James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): What recent
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his
Co-op): As many of us heard at a meeting here on Department’s support for high streets. [900115]
Thursday night and many of us know from our case
load, so many people are caught in really difficult 20. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): What recent assessment
circumstances because of the issue of cladding. Those he has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s
leaseholders are mortgage prisoners or their properties support for high streets. [900121]
are valued at zero. Will the Secretary of State give them
some assurance that the Government are taking this
The Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local
seriously and will act fast, because people’s lives are
Growth (Jake Berry): This Government are committed
unable to move on while they await a decision on the
to supporting high streets and local leaders up and
second type of cladding?
down the country, and we are doing that through our
£1 billion future high street fund, which is part of our
Robert Jenrick: I appreciate the issue the hon. Lady larger £3.6 billion towns fund.
has raised, and I read about the meeting of the all-party
group the other day. This is a very serious challenge; I As this is our first questions after the festive season I
am aware of a number of leaseholders who are struggling want to take this opportunity to thank all the shopworkers
to find the finance required to make the necessary who worked so hard over the Christmas period to
changes to their homes. We are giving this careful enable us to deliver our Christmas presents—and
consideration. We have already provided £600 million particularly, if I may, Mr Speaker, the workers in the
for those living in high-rise buildings with ACM cladding RSPCA shop on Bank Street who sold me the very natty
so that that work can now proceed at pace, and I will tie I am wearing for 50p only last Friday.
certainly meet with any of the hon. Lady’s constituents
who might wish to discuss what further steps the Mr Speaker: You ought to make a donation.
Government can take to unblock this important issue.
Nickie Aiken: I thank my right hon. Friend for his
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): reply—and I think his tie is very blue.
May I press my right hon. Friend: will he reassure My constituency, Cities of London and Westminster,
leaseholders in North West Leicestershire and across is home to Oxford Street, often referred to as the
the country that the Government will set up a mechanism nation’s high street. Given that local authorities rely
for them to seek proper redress for their genuine grievances? heavily on business rate receipts to help encourage more
investment into the high street, what plans do the
Robert Jenrick: Yes, we will. Government have to give councils greater fiscal powers
to invest business rates locally?
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): The Secretary
of State rightly refers to action, but when? That is the Jake Berry: What an excellent question; I would like
key question my constituents are asking in the Winnington to start by welcoming my hon. Friend to her place, and
part of Weaver Vale and Sandymoor. We have had her question is a sign of the expertise that can be
consultation upon consultation; when will there be action? brought into this House when we have people with long
We need action now, not careful consideration. experience in local government. She will know that
743 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 744

local government can currently retain 50% of business Should we in this Parliament seek to go further and
rates revenue growth, and councils are able to work with faster? Yes. We are going to review business rates and I
those retained business rates and see what they can do am sure my hon. Friend will play an active role in that
to improve their local areas. I know that as a new and review.
robust Member of this House my hon. Friend will
continue her work with Westminster City Council to Peter Aldous: Leading on from the issue raised by my
make sure that that happens. fellow colleague from Suffolk, Beales has stores in both
Lowestoft and Beccles in my constituency. It is clear
Mike Wood: Towns like Brierley Hill in Dudley South that the crippling impact of business rates has been a
have struggled to compete with nearby retail parks, and significant contributory factor to the difficulties it is
also now increasingly with more shopping moving online. currently facing. I acknowledge the rates relief the
Will my right hon. Friend do everything he can to help Government have provided to smaller businesses, but
towns like Brierley Hill adapt to modern economic may I urge my right hon. Friend to ensure, in the review
challenges and also make those town centres places of business rates that is due to take place, that the
where people want to be? Government not only consider root and branch reform
but the replacement of rates, too?
Jake Berry: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of
State visited Brierley Hill, I am sure to celebrate the fact Jake Berry: My hon. Friend, as a chartered surveyor,
that it is one of the first 100 places under our future is an expert in this area and, like our parliamentary
high street fund to receive £150,000 revenue funding to colleague, he has campaigned vigorously and continuously.
work on the exciting plans to ensure our high streets are In terms of the review, everything is going to be reviewed.
fit for the future. My hon. Friend, who is, I think, still It will be a joint review between my Department and the
the chairman of the all-party group on beer, will be Treasury. All ideas, from all sides of the House, about
working very hard to make sure our pubs are protected, how we improve the health of our high streets and our
and we can have micropubs up and down the land. business community more generally, will certainly be
taken on board.
Jane Stevenson: In recent years Wolverhampton city
centre and, in my constituency, local centres such as Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I want to
Wednesfield high street have struggled. I am delighted return to the question from the hon. Member for South
that Wolverhampton city centre will benefit from the Suffolk (James Cartlidge), which I do not think the
Government’s stronger towns fund, but will the Minister Minister really answered. In the previous Parliament, a
work with me so that local traders and retail businesses unanimously agreed Select Committee report—I think
all over Wolverhampton North East, including market it was generally well received, apart from the response
traders in Wednesfield high street— from the Government which was a bit lukewarm—
recommended that we address the fundamental imbalance
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op): whereby Amazon pays 0.7% of its turnover in business
Is Wolverhampton a city? rates and high street shops pay between 2% and 6%.
That unfairness needs to be addressed. Will the Government
Jane Stevenson: It is a city. Will the Minister work now commit, as part of their business rate review, to
with me so that they feel confident that the Government look at that unfairness and at how we can rebalance tax,
will support their hard work and further local regeneration? so that digital sales pay more and high street sales pay
less?
Jake Berry: I am sure that, like me, my hon. Friend is
looking forward to playing an active role both in her Jake Berry: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will not
high street and stronger towns fund bid. The idea complain if I just take the opportunity to wish him a
behind this is to bring together leaders and communities— happy birthday. What a great question to ask on his
Members of Parliament, council leaders, business leaders birthday. If he listened to the answers I gave, I was
and third sector groups—to come up with a long-term absolutely clear that this will be a fundamental and
plan for the improvement of their towns. Whichever wide-ranging review of business rates. All arguments,
side of the House Members sit on, that is absolutely including those set out in the report by the Select
something they will want to see for the area they represent. Committee he chaired in the previous Parliament, will
I look forward to working with my hon. Friend as she be taken into account. Perhaps, if he gets a spare
takes that role forward. moment this evening in between blowing out candles,
he can read the relevant passage of the Conservative
James Cartlidge: Speaking to traditional retailers manifesto, which is pretty clear on this point.
during the election campaign, it is clear that future
business rates is a massive issue for them. There is, in Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford)
particular, a sense that there is not a level playing field (Lab): I spoke to the previous Secretary of State to ask
between them and the increasingly dominant and massive for Knottingley in my constituency to be included in the
digital retailers. Will the review of business rates, which towns fund, because the high street is under great
we promised in our manifesto, be looking at that? pressure and has been heavily hit by public service cuts
and Government spending cuts in the last few years. We
Jake Berry: I welcome my hon. Friend back. He has have lost not only the last bank and local shops, but the
been a redoubtable campaigner in the area of business sports centre, the library, the Sure Start centre, much
rates in his time in Parliament. Working with him and policing and local youth services. Knottingley has not
through him, the Government have, since 2016, introduced been included and, frankly, that means that it is not
a £13 billion cut in business rates over the next five years. getting a fair deal. Will the Minister ask the Secretary of
745 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 746

State to meet me and see what can be done to make sure decade. We will keep building the homes that this country
that Government investment can go back into Knottingley needs with investment in infrastructure and affordable
town centre and that we can get a fair deal for the town? housing, while making the dream of home ownership a
reality for everyone, and we will redouble our efforts to
Jake Berry: I will happily meet the right hon. Lady. bring about the biggest change in building safety for a
generation.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I
remind the Minister that it is not only high streets but Gareth Johnson: This year, we commemorate the
our town centres that are under pressure and in decline 75th anniversary of the liberation of the world war two
all over our country, and this is not just about business concentration camps. I ask the Secretary of State, in his
rates, but about notable buildings. Mr Speaker, you will communities role, what is being done to mark the
know about the George hotel, where rugby league was occasion, and furthermore, what is being done to tackle
founded 125 years ago—the anniversary is coming up antisemitism more generally wherever it occurs?
next year. It cannot be renovated and has lain empty
and idle for years. Surely the compulsory purchase Robert Jenrick: On 23 January, I will accompany His
order system could be improved to give local authorities Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to the holocaust forum
the ability to take a significant building in any town at Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, to mark the 75th anniversary
centre and do something about it. of the liberation of the concentration camps, which
brought an end to the murder of 6 million Jewish men,
Jake Berry: The planning White Paper will come out women and children, but as we know, did not bring an
after the conclusion of the debate on the Queen’s Speech, end to the cancer of antisemitism. The Government
and, looking at how CPO works in our town centres have provided an additional £2.2 million for schools to
and other parts of the country will be part of the teach lessons from Auschwitz and £1.7 million for visits
consultation. On the specific issue that the hon. Gentleman to Bergen-Belsen, the camp liberated by British troops.
raises, it would seem to me a crying shame if this issue I will continue to champion the International Holocaust
could not be dealt with, as we head towards the rugby Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, including
league world cup. If he would like to come to see me, requiring all councils to adopt it forthwith.
I will certainly make it my job to do so.
Mr Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab): Council
Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): funding cuts under this Government have created a
Mr Speaker, it was a pleasure to see your journey down shortage of safe accommodation for vulnerable children,
here with Patrick the cat and Boris the parrot a couple and now thousands of at-risk young people are being
of days ago—a preening, repetitive, attention-seeking placed in care homes that are illegal, miles from their
Boris; I am sure he will fit in quite well here. school or unregulated. Does the Secretary of State
Our high streets and town centres are in crisis, with agree that responsibility for this injustice lies at the feet
more shops closing than opening. The Government of his Government?
keep falling way below what is needed to take real
action that will make a difference. When will they take Robert Jenrick: We have recently published, and will
real action to address the fundamental weakness of our be debating shortly, the most generous settlement for
business taxation system to give our high streets and local government for a decade. It will provide a 4.4% real-
town centres a fighting chance? As a practical suggestion, terms increase in funding for local government and will
why not look at enterprise-type zones for our town include a £1 billion grant for social care. These are
centres with incentives to make sure that they have a important issues that we need to take forward. I am aware
future? of some issues with supported housing, for example, and
the Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities
Jake Berry: In terms of practical action, the £3.6 billion and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member
towns fund seems to be a good place to start. When we for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall), is taking that
add to that the £13 billion that we are saving for forward, but as a result of the economic renewal that
businesses in business rates, we are certainly making the country is undergoing, after almost a decade of
some progress, but I will go away and look at the hon. economic growth, we are now able to invest more in
Gentleman’s suggestion about high street enterprise zones. local government. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and
all Members of the House will support the local government
Topical Questions settlement next month.

T1. [900140] Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): If he T2. [900141] Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): Will
will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. my right hon. Friend join me in praising the excellent
market town of Marlow for its thriving high street,
The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and with local stores such as FourState, which sources
Local Government (Robert Jenrick): From Kensington eco-friendly, sustainable and ethical products, and what
to Sedgefield, and from Workington to Wrexham, this is his Department doing to provide a better deal for
Government were elected to represent all parts of the towns and high streets that have been overlooked and
country. My Department is focused on repaying that undervalued by Whitehall for far too long?
trust by levelling up every community with a renewed
focus on those areas that have been overlooked and The Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local
undervalued for too long. We will ensure that local Growth (Jake Berry): I welcome my hon. Friend to her
government is properly supported to deliver the services place. I know that she, together with the Centre for
that we all rely on with the best financial settlement in a Social Justice, has been active in this area for many
747 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 748

years, which is why I am delighted to tell her that we [Interruption.] As I do not think the hon. Member for
have a £3.6 billion towns fund, which will support an Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) knows, given
initial 100 town deals across England, together with the that he represents Brighton—though he is chuntering
£1 billion future high streets fund. We are working with from a sedentary position about One Yorkshire—proposals
local government up and down this land to ensure we have been submitted to the Government, but the area
fight for the future health of our high streets. did not meet the requirement to having a coherent
economic geography. I am pleased, however, that we are
T5. [900144] Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) able to forge ahead with all forms of devolution in
(Lab): Last week it was reported that the new Minister Yorkshire. What happens in Brighton we will have to
for Housing was lobbying the Secretary of State for wait and see.
more funding for council house investment as opposed
to failed ownership schemes. Does the Secretary of T4. [900143] Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): My
State agree with the case she was making? constituency is 93% green belt. My district council has
put together a plan that meets 90% of housing need
Robert Jenrick: As I have already said in previous while protecting the green belt. The planning inspector
answers, the Government want to build more homes of is indicating the plan should not be adopted. Will the
all types. If we are to tackle the housing crisis, we will Minister urgently look into the conduct of the Planning
need to spend more on infrastructure, which we are Inspectorate in this matter?
doing; further reform the planning system, which I
intend to do; and invest more in affordable housing, The Minister for Housing (Esther McVey): I welcome
and we have already invested £9 billion through our my hon. Friend to these Benches. She will be a terrific
affordable housing programme and made a manifesto addition to this place, and I am delighted that she is
commitment to introduce another one that is even dedicated to the green belt and supporting her constituents.
larger. But do I believe that people in this country That is only right, and the Government, too, are committed
fundamentally want to own a home of their own? Yes, I to that. Planning inspectors are appointed to independently
do, and we will do all we can to help more people on the examine plans. Given my quasi-judicial role in the planning
housing ladder. system, it would not be appropriate for me to speak on
this matter, but I cheer my hon. Friend on in all she does
T3. [900142] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): As for her constituency.
myrighthon.Friendhasmentioned,thisisthe75thanniversary
of the liberation of Auschwitz and other concentration Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The
camps. Will he join me in commending the work of the Government’s consultation on closing the loophole that
Holocaust Educational Trust, which does such brilliant allows second home owners to avoid paying any council
work to enable survivors to inform young people about tax whatever by pretending to be a small business ended
the horrors of antisemitism and where it ultimately 12 months ago. Will the Government take action to
leads? Will he also join me and others in signing the protect communities in south lakes and elsewhere, or
book of commitment in the House of Commons so that have they decided not to bother?
we can eradicate racism and antisemitism wherever they
rears their ugly head? Esther McVey: We will absolutely help communities
like the hon. Member’s. The Government have removed
Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend, who has campaigned the requirement to offer council tax discounts on second
on this issue for many years, speaks for the whole homes amounting to 75% of the full rate. He is quite
House. I will of course be signing the book. I am right: the consultation closes on 16 January, and then
informed by the Leader of the House that there will be we will make decisions on it. If he would like to discuss
a debate in the House on or around Holocaust Memorial his suggestions with me, I will gladly meet him.
Day in the usual way. We must all continue to fight the
cancer of antisemitism, in all its forms, on every occasion, T7. [900146] Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con): There
and this Government will always do that. has been a lot of talk about the blue wall of the north;
less, however, has been said about the blue doughnut of
T6. [900145] Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West Nottinghamshire. Can my right hon. Friend reassure
and Hessle) (Lab): The Minister will know that when the people of Rushcliffe that this one nation Conservative
the north prospers the nation prospers, and a recent Government will deliver on our promises to support
independent study showed that the One Yorkshire communities and businesses across the east midlands, to
devolution project could bring £30 billion to our truly get the midlands engine revving in top gear?
region’s economy, so will he finally allow us to bring
power home by letting One Yorkshire devolution go Robert Jenrick: I welcome my hon. Friend and
ahead? parliamentary neighbour to the House. I think she is
the first new Member of Parliament for Rushcliffe for
Jake Berry: I am sure that, like me, the hon. Lady is 49 years. She has a lot to live up to, but I look forward
delighted that one of the first policy commitments of to working with her as we power up the midlands
our new Prime Minister before the general election was engine. I think her constituency was the only Conservative
to say that we should have devolution—mayoral at constituency in the county of Nottinghamshire in 1997.
that—across the whole of the north of England, and I Today, all the constituencies are Conservative. One area
am delighted to report that we are not only proceeding that we will of course work on together is delivery of
well with negotiations in West Yorkshire but having the new development co-operation at Ratcliffe power
good discussions with South Yorkshire—[Interruption.] station, which is a brilliant opportunity for the whole
The rest of Yorkshire is in discussions with us as well. country.
749 Oral Answers 13 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 750

John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Across the country, crisis facing many of our constituents is that they have
children’s care is in crisis. The Secretary of State made problems with high pressure laminate or other forms of
welcome reference to the funding settlement, which external cladding, as opposed to aluminium composite
provides some relief, but that is for the next financial material—that it would be sensible to extend the coverage
year. Can the Minister confirm that the extra funding of the fund that the Government have established for
will be provided in every year of this Parliament? Will the private sector to cover those blocks? Otherwise, the
the Government also continue to work with councils to residents will face a very bleak future.
ensure that funding settlements reflect the escalating
demand for, and cost of, these services? Robert Jenrick: I am grateful for the right hon. Member’s
comments, and I saw the early-day motion that he laid
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, in the House to that effect, but we must be guided by the
Communities and Local Government (Luke Hall): I thank evidence. My predecessors chose to provide the £600 million
the right hon. Gentleman for his question; I know how remediation fund in relation to ACM in high-rise buildings
important this issue is in his constituency. I can certainly because the expert panel which advises us had said that
confirm that the social care grant will continue every that was the urgent challenge that needed to be addressed.
year, including the additional £9.2 million for his local We have commissioned experts from the Building Research
authority into the next year. I am very happy to meet Establishment to carry out further tests on a range of
him to discuss this further. materials, including HPL. I will publish the information
shortly, and will say more at that time.
T8. [900147] Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con): I
welcome the fact that house building is at a 30-year T10. [900149] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I declare
high under this Conservative Government, but my an interest, as a member of the Crawley towns fund
constituents and I are concerned by the extremely high board.
local house building target. Will the Secretary of State Can my right hon. Friend say a little more about how
meet me to discuss how new homes in East Surrey will he envisages the realisation of the £3.6 billion that the
be supported by much needed investment in road, rail Government are investing in our town centres and high
and GP provision? streets?
Esther McVey: I welcome another hon. Friend to Jake Berry: I too declare an interest, as a member of
these Benches. She is quite right: we have to ensure that the Darwen towns fund board.
we have the right infrastructure. We pledged in the
I think that we shall be hearing a bit more about that
manifesto to ensure that infrastructure first, as set out
as we work with Members of Parliament, local authorities,
in the Queen’s Speech. We have the £5.5 billion housing
businesses and community groups, and ask them to
infrastructure fund, but we will introduce a bigger,
come forward with exciting long-term plans for the
single housing infrastructure fund to provide the infra-
rejuvenation of not just their high streets but their
structure that she rightly wants for her constituency and
towns. We must all remember, Mr Speaker, that there is
that other Members want for theirs.
a reason why you no longer have a tallow merchant in
the high street in Chorley. High streets and town centres
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Further to the
have always been changing, but with our stronger towns
Secretary of State’s answer to my hon. Friend the
fund we can ensure that we are the handmaidens of that
Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier),
dynamic change.
may I suggest—given that the only difference in the
751 13 JANUARY 2020 Iran 752

Iran The regime does have a choice. The diplomatic door

remains open, and now is the time for Iran to engage in
diplomacy and chart a peaceful way forward. I commend
3.31 pm this statement to the House.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)(Urgent
Question): To ask the Foreign Secretary to update the Mr Ellwood: I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for
House on the security situation in Iran. granting this urgent question. Tensions have clearly
ratcheted up since the drone strike that killed General
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Soleimani and the Iranian reprisals. The Iranian President
Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): and the United States President have momentarily checked
Further to the oral statement made by the Defence any further military aggression, but the wider issues
Secretary on 7 January, I will make a statement on Iran relating to Iran’s destabilising foreign policy ambitions
in response to the urgent question from my right hon. remain. It still wants to advance its sectarian regional
Friend. influence by funding, training and arming paramilitaries
Let me first express my condolences, and those of the and militias right across the middle east, it has already
Government, to the loved ones of those who tragically restarted its nuclear programme, and it shamelessly
lost their lives on Ukrainian International Airlines flight attempted to cover up the missile strike against flight 752.
PS752. Our thoughts are with all those affected during This weekend, as the Secretary of State has just confirmed,
what must be a devastating time. Among the 176 passengers it breached the Vienna convention by arresting our own
who tragically lost their lives were four British nationals, ambassador in Tehran. I believe that these irresponsible
as well as 82 Iranians. actions are out of sync with the views of the people of
Iran, who have once again bravely taken to the streets to
On 9 January we stated publicly—alongside partners vent their fury against the regime, the failing economy
such as Canada and the United States—that, given an and the regime’s international adventurism.
increasing body of information, we believed that Iran
was responsible for the downing of the aircraft. Despite May I ask the Secretary of State to update the House
initial denials, the Government of Iran acknowledged on whether calls for full transparency in the crash
on 11 January that they were responsible. Now it is time investigation will be met? Will he also update us on the
for a full, transparent and independent investigation. welfare and security of our ambassador, our diplomatic
It must be a collaborative endeavour, with a strong staff and their dependants in Tehran, and on how
international component. The families of the victims— recent events will affect efforts to secure the release of
including those in Iran—must have answers, and must Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe?
know the truth. The UK is also working with the I commend the Prime Minister’s efforts and those of
Canadian-led International Coordination and Response the Foreign Secretary not to lose sight of the nuclear
Group, consisting of countries with nationals killed in deal, but, as the former Foreign Minister responsible
the plane crash. The group will help with the issuing of for the area, I should say that the last deal failed
visas and the repatriation of the bodies of the victims. because no international investment could head Tehran’s
Separately, Her Majesty’s ambassador to Iran, Rob way due to the legacy sanctions connected to missile
Macaire, was arrested over the weekend, and was illegally procurement, which prevented any bank, particularly
held for three hours. On 11 January, the ambassador those with US ties, from aiding economic reform. So Iran
attended a public vigil to pay his respects to the victims gained little from the deal, and the release of frozen
of flight 752. He left shortly afterwards, when there assets worth $150 billion plus new oil revenues were
were signs that the vigil might turn into a protest. Let used not to support the ailing economy but to advance
me be very clear about this: he was not attending or Iran’s proxy wars. For a fresh deal to succeed, any new
recording a political protest or demonstration. His arrest talks must cover missile sanctions and conditional economic
later that day, without grounds or explanation, was a reform.
flagrant violation of international law. Today, in response, Finally, may I ask what talks the UK has had with
we will summon the Iranian ambassador to demand an the US and other allies to ensure that we remain united
apology, and to seek full assurances that this will not and engaged? I believe that there is a leading role for the
happen again. UK to play in resetting our middle east strategy towards
Given the treatment of the ambassador, we are keeping Iran, first, by being more assertive in tackling proxy
security measures for the embassy under review, and, as interference and weapons proliferation and, secondly,
I am sure the House would expect, we updated our by being more proactive in offering conditional but
travel advice on 10 January. We currently recommend genuine economic rehabilitation for Iran.
that British nationals should not travel to Iran or take
any flights to, from or within Iran. On the diplomatic Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend makes a range
front, in the past week I have met our international of powerful points, and I pay tribute to him for his
partners in Brussels, Washington and Montreal, and I experience in this area. He is right to say that there is a
attended an E3 meeting yesterday in Paris. I spoke to pattern of behaviour by the regime in Iran, which is
Foreign Minister Zarif on 6 January, and the Prime flouting the basic rules of international law and not
Minister spoke to President Rouhani on 9 January. We living up to the kind of conduct we would expect from
welcome the overwhelming international support for any Government who want to be a responsible member
Her Majesty’s ambassador to Iran, and for the rights to of the international community. We have seen that on
which all diplomats are entitled under the Vienna convention the nuclear side and with the announcement in the first
on diplomatic relations. The regime in Tehran is at a week of January of further non-compliance in relation
crossroads, and it can slip further and further into to some centrifuges. We have seen it in the destabilising
political and economic isolation, but there is an alternative. activity for which General Soleimani was in large part
753 Iran 13 JANUARY 2020 Iran 754

[Dominic Raab] and no one can excuse those acts of violence. Like all of
us, I fear not just for the Iranian people and the stability
responsible when he was alive, and we have seen it in the of the region, but especially for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe
treatment of dual nationals—in particular, but not limited and other dual nationals who are languishing in Iranian
to, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. We have seen it not just jails. I hope that the Foreign Secretary can comment
in the treatment of our ambassador in Iran but, more on their current health and safety. Like him, I will be
importantly, in the downing of the Ukrainian flight. raising those concerns when I meet the Iranian ambassador
There must be some accountability for that wrongdoing. to London tomorrow.
We welcome Iran’s first step in acknowledging responsibility, The question we must all ask, and which I ask the
but there must now be a full, thorough investigation Foreign Secretary today, is: where do we go from here?
into what happened, with an international component Ever since Donald Trump started to walk away from
so that people can have faith and confidence in that the Iran nuclear deal, we have been on a path to this
process. At the same time, while we keep up the pressure point. With the strategy of engagement from the so-called
and insist on accountability on the nuclear front and in moderates in Iran now discredited and abandoned, and
relation to the airline, we also want to be clear that the with the hardliners firmly back in charge in Tehran and
diplomatic door is ajar. This is something that the US an equally unpredictable, trigger-happy President in
President and the French President have made clear, the White House, we are just one more mistake or
and this Government certainly fully support a diplomatic miscalculation away from brinkmanship tipping over
way through to de-escalating the tensions and seeking a into war. What action is the Foreign Secretary taking to
long-term diplomatic resolution of all the outstanding ensure a permanent de-escalation of the tension, rather
issues. than an inexorable drift towards war?
My right hon. Friend mentioned the Joint Comprehensive
Plan of Action. Iran has now systematically failed to Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman and
comply with the JCPOA. We are clear that we still welcome his condemnation of the conduct of the
support it. We have not signed up for the doctrine of Government of Iran, including their non-compliance
maximum pressure. At the same time, the JCPOA has with the JCPOA and their treatment of our ambassador
effectively been left a shell of an agreement because of in Tehran. As I have said, it is important to maintain
systematic steps by Iran, taking it out of compliance. transatlantic unity and solidarity, and this House must
For it to be made to work, Iran must make a choice that also give the regime in Iran a very clear signal that we
it wants to come back to compliance and to the diplomatic stand together on these important issues.
negotiating table. As I have said, I raised the issue of dual nationals,
Finally, my right hon. Friend asked about the including Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, with Foreign Minister
conversations we have had with our partners. I have Zarif when I spoke to him. They remain at the centre
spoken to Foreign Minister Zarif and I was in Brussels and forefront of our thinking on Iran. We constantly,
last week for meetings with the E3 and High Representative consistently and at every level raise both their welfare
Josep Borrell. Indeed, I also saw them last night in Paris and the need for them to be released without conditions.
for further discussion. I was also in the US last week to They should not be held. They should be back home
talk to Secretary of State Pompeo and National Security with their families.
Adviser Robert O’Brien. It is very important that we The hon. Gentleman asked the obvious exam question:
maintain transatlantic unity, because while we leave the where do we go from here? He is right to say that we
diplomatic door ajar to the regime in Iran, we want to need to try to defuse the situation. We have been working
be absolutely crystal clear that the message it receives with our international partners in Europe, the US and,
from the UK, the Europeans and the US is the same— crucially, in the region, to emphasise the absolute importance
namely, that there is a route forward for the Iranian of de-escalating the tensions, particularly to avoid military
Government and, most importantly, the Iranian people, conflagration. That would only benefit Daesh and the
if Iran takes steps to comply with the basic tenets of other terrorist groups in the region, and I think there is
international law. consistency of agreement on that point. There must be
accountability where there is wrongdoing, whether that
Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): Thank relates to the treatment of foreign nationals or ensuring
you for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker, and that the JCPOA is complied with, if the JCPOA is to be
may I congratulate the right hon. Member for Bournemouth a credible means of dealing with the nuclear issue. We
East (Mr Ellwood) on securing it? must work with all our international partners and show
The events in Iran and Iraq that have followed the unity of purpose so that, given the political climate in
assassination of General Soleimani have been utterly Tehran that the hon. Gentleman described, there is no
appalling. They include the missile attacks on US bases doubt about the international community’s approach to
in Iraq; Iran’s decisions to remove all limits on uranium Iran’s current behaviour.
enrichment; the recent attacks, in the past few days, on Notwithstanding all that, the diplomatic door must
protesters on the streets of Tehran; the detention, be left open, because the only way to de-escalate
as has been mentioned, of our excellent ambassador, permanently, which I think was the phrase the hon.
Rob Macaire; and, of course, the unforgivable shooting Gentleman used, is to find a diplomatic solution to all
down of the Ukrainian airliner, killing 176 innocent the issues, from nuclear activity to Iran’s destabilising
civilians, including four Britons, all of whose deaths we actions in the region and, of course, the dual nationals
mourn today. and the many other bilateral issues. We have been clear
These are sure signs not only that the hardliners in and consistent that that choice is there for the Iranian
Tehran are firmly back in the ascendancy in the Iranian regime to make. It can slip further into isolation, with
regime, but that their actions are out of control. Nothing all the ensuing consequences for the people of Iran, or it
755 Iran 13 JANUARY 2020 Iran 756

can choose to come through the diplomatic door and sit therefore tell the House precisely what discussions have
at the negotiating table, which is the only way that all been had about a proper international investigation
the issues will be resolved over the long term. into the downing of the aircraft, including the handing
over of the flight recorders to proper international
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): When investigators?
Iran faces a fork in the road, it chooses time and again
not to take the opportunity to be a responsible member Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In
of the international community. Does my right hon. fact, I was speaking with my Canadian counterpart in
Friend agree that now is not the time to ease that Montreal on Thursday. The Canadians suffered an
pressure? One practical step that we can take here in the appalling loss of life, and they are leading some work
UK would be to proscribe the Iranian Revolutionary on visas and the repatriation of bodies. We are working
Guard Corps as a foreign terrorist organisation, which together with them, all those affected and, indeed, our
is exactly what it is. wider partners to ensure a credible, full and transparent
investigation, because although we understand that Iran
Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend speaks powerfully has accepted responsibility, we still do not know why
about the importance of ensuring that a consistent the incident happened and all the details of how it
message is sent not just from London but from all our happened. For the British victims, the Canadian victims,
international partners about the wrongdoing that has the Ukrainian victims and, above all, the Iranian victims,
been taking place in Iran, and of ensuring some we deserve to know the answers to the questions and the
accountability. While maintaining that pressure consistently truth behind why this appalling avoidable tragedy happened.
and with all the means available to us—I am happy to
consider his point about proscription—we must also be Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North)
clear that the choice is Iran’s to make, that there is (Lab): I have previously raised with Ministers in the
an alternative, and that we are not blindly seeking House the harassment of BBC Persian staff and their
confrontation: quite the opposite. We seek de-escalation, families by the Iranian regime. I understand the regime
and we want Iran to live up to the basic norms of the is now citing BBC Persian Television’s alleged
international community, and there is a diplomatic way encouragement of unrest and violence in Iran as justification
through to a negotiated solution. for further bullying. What is the Foreign Secretary
doing to support the staff who work in this field, and
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): I commend the right their families in Iran, to make sure they are safe and
hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) for secure?
his question and the Foreign Secretary for his answers.
There is a great deal of cross-party unity in the House, Dominic Raab: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for her
and he can rest assured of the SNP’s support, particularly work in this regard. It is important we send a clear
for efforts towards co-operation in the E3 format, which message that BBC journalists—any journalists, and
must be encouraged and promoted. Will he update the specifically British journalists—cannot be bullied in
House on his discussions with the US authorities, this way any more than our diplomatic staff. In fact,
particularly with a view to encouraging dialogue to when I was in Canada with my Canadian opposite
persuade them to lift their apparently still in force ban number, we launched a new award for those who champion
on the Iranian Foreign Minister getting to the United and protect media freedom. Not only are we looking at
Nations for discussions? this individual case, but there is an international campaign
to make sure that we provide protection for journalists
Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his around the world who, in very difficult circumstances,
support for our diplomatic efforts. I was in Washington are willing to speak truth to power.
last week and had various conversations with the National
Security Adviser and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Will my right
Notwithstanding that we do not agree with the US on hon. Friend work closely with Ministers from the other
maximum pressure, for example, the US has always countries that lost citizens on Ukraine International
been clear that there is a diplomatic way forward and Airlines flight 752? Will he perhaps attend the joint
that the door remains open. President Trump has said investigation group meeting in London on Thursday,
that, President Macron has said it, and the Prime Minister which will be attended by the Ukrainian Foreign Minister?
has said it. Again, the choice is for Iran to make. Does he agree it is essential that Iran not only allows
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about the full investigation of what happened but organises the
visa. I understand that it was not refused but, in any repatriation of the bodies and pays full compensation
event, it is important throughout the process to ensure to the families of those who were lost?
that we keep open the opportunity for dialogue and a
diplomatic path forward to a negotiated solution. Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend is absolutely
right. Of course we will be fully plugged in and, indeed,
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): a driving force in the international effort to make sure
Does my right hon. Friend agree that this moment we get the right answers in terms of the investigation.
marks the beginning of an opportunity, if Iran wishes This point is even stronger now that the Government of
to take it, for Iran to co-operate with the international Iran have accepted at least a measure of responsibility,
community on the downing of the Ukraine International but it is crucial that the investigation is fully independent
Airlines aircraft? Several nationalities were involved, and has an international component so that people can
including, unfortunately, a number of Britons and, feel confidence in the outcome and the answers. We will
indeed, many more Iranians. Will my right hon. Friend work with all our international partners on all the issues
757 Iran 13 JANUARY 2020 Iran 758

[Dominic Raab] that we made, or indeed allow the actions and tensions
in the middle east to fuel the fire of Daesh and other
he raises, and I certainly want to see justice for the terrorist groups.
incredible number of people who are still mourning and
grieving this terrible loss. John Howell (Henley) (Con): The Foreign Secretary
will have seen pictures of the Israeli flag being tied to
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): the British flag and both being set alight. That hardly
The Foreign Secretary will have seen reports of the speaks of de-escalation. How is the attempt at de-escalation
demonstrations across Iran this weekend, illustrating working throughout the region? What particular factors
the profound and widespread unhappiness among the are being taken into account to protect Israel?
people of Iran about the recent actions of their
Government. That may in itself be the start of an Dominic Raab: We work closely with all our international
opportunity to see a shift in Iran’s foreign policy, but if partners and we are engaged with Israel on the issues
we are to maximise that opportunity, we need to engage that we have in common with it. On de-escalation so far,
those interlocutors in the Gulf and the wider middle after the death of General Soleimani we saw an Iranian
east with whom we have good relations in order to see response that was dangerous and reckless, but none the
that shift executed in Iran. less we have not seen any major military intervention
from Iran since then. Our message to all sides in the
Dominic Raab: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman region is that we need to take baby steps towards
that watching the change in the public mood in Tehran de-escalating over time, and then, gradually, as the
and more broadly in Iran is very striking. He is also situation defuses, think about what positive measures
right to say that we need to work with all our partners. can be put in place to build up confidence in the region.
In fact, I would go further and say that, beyond our Until we get on that train and on that track, it is
partners in the middle east, we also need to work with difficult to see how the wider diplomatic initiatives can
China, Russia and those closest to them to enhance and bear fruit.
reinforce the solidarity and clarity of the message that
we are sending to the regime in Tehran. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does
the Foreign Secretary agree that although any sensible
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The malign person does not want the pressure on Iran to cease,
influence of the IRGC extends from the strait of Hormuz nobody sensible wants another war in the middle east,
through Lebanon, Gaza and Yemen and almost anywhere, either? He mentioned the door being slightly open; is it
and now into Europe. Is it not time that we sent a very not a fact that if we want peace, we have to carry on
strong signal by proscribing the IRGC, freezing its speaking to the Iranians? All of us who have been
assets and saying, “We will give you an opportunity to campaigning for the release of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe
unfreeze them once you restore proper, normal diplomatic and the other prisoners believe that perhaps speaking at
actions and behaviours across the world”? a level of faith, with an all-faith delegation going to
Iran to speak to the faith leaders there, might help. I
Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend makes a strong point spoke to the Archbishop of Canterbury at a service
about the pernicious behaviour of not just the IGRC only this time last week, and he seems to think that if
but the Quds force, of which General Soleimani was the the delegation was welcome—if Iran was open to a
head. The Quds force is the element, the component or delegation—it could take place. Would the Secretary of
the wing of the regime that is responsible for working State support such a delegation to visit Iran?
with the militias, the proxies and the terrorist groups
from Lebanon through to Iraq and Syria. It is absolutely Dominic Raab: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s
right to make that point. On proscription more generally, premise: we need to keep the diplomatic lines of
they are subject to sanctions, but we will obviously keep communication open. I have made it clear to Foreign
the issue under very careful review. Minister Zarif that for our part we wish to do that and
to start to see how measures can be taken on all aspects,
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): but particularly to see the Iranians come back to full
There is now a real sense of chaos, emergency and crisis compliance with the JCPOA. I sympathise very much
in the region. What assessment has the Foreign and with the spirit of the idea of an all-faith diplomatic
Commonwealth Office made of the increased risk from initiative. The hon. Gentleman he will have seen that for
IS/Daesh, both in the region and here at home? What the moment, through our Foreign Office travel advice,
actions are being taken to counter any dangers? we advise against travel to Iran. That is probably the
safest bet for the moment.
Dominic Raab: The hon. Lady makes an important
point. The reality is that unless we can pursue a path to Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): I am grateful to my
de-escalation, the risk of war would benefit the terrorist right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East
groups, particularly Daesh. We are keeping the risk (Mr Ellwood) for asking this urgent question and to the
assessment under constant review, although we do not Secretary of State for his response.
talk about the operational side of that. One clear aspect The tensions in the region are clearly incredibly high
of all this that we have in common, whether with our at the moment, but one of the best ways for the Iranians
European partners and our American partners or with to help would be for them to recommit to their 2015
the Iranian Government, is the desire not to allow the commitments to the nuclear deal. What practical steps
hard-fought and hard-won gains against Daesh to be can the Government take to ensure that they can roll
reversed. We are working with all our partners in the back from the position they are in now and de-escalate
middle east to make sure that we do not lose the gains the situation?
759 Iran 13 JANUARY 2020 Iran 760

Dominic Raab: We are looking very carefully at this. but, of course, there is a very clear obligation under the
As someone said from the Opposition Benches, it is Vienna convention on diplomatic relations about the
about balance. On the one hand, we need to have some way that ambassadors and diplomatic staff are treated.
accountability for the systematic non-compliance, which This is crucial, not least because if we cannot have
well predates the death of General Soleimani; on the confidence that our diplomatic staff and missions are
other hand, we want to make sure it is very clear that respected, we cannot engage in the kind of diplomacy
there is always a diplomatic route back. We are looking that we need to charter a peaceful way forward.
at it very carefully. One reason why I was in Paris
yesterday evening was to make sure that we are Mr Speaker: I call Sir Iain Duncan Smith. [Interruption.]
co-ordinating and engaging closely with our E3 partners Sir Iain?
as well as our American friends.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Given that the Green) (Con): Sorry, I did not hear you, Mr Speaker.
shooting down of flight 752 is, sadly, the latest instance I will not give up that opportunity.
of civilian airliners being shot down in regions of conflict First, may I congratulate my right hon. Friend the
apparently by mistake, may I urge the Foreign Secretary, Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on securing
with colleagues, to see what more might be done to this urgent question, and my right hon. Friend at the
enable defence forces properly to distinguish between Dispatch Box on his calm and reassuring manner
civilian aircraft and potential military threats in order throughout this period? Notwithstanding that, I would
to ensure that such deaths are avoided in future? like to ask a question. From the moment that we
negotiated that deal and the west offered an olive branch
Dominic Raab: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for
to Iran, our expectations have never really been met.
his question. That is incredibly important. It is not clear
Iran shows the face that it wishes to show to the west,
to me whether that is what caused the shooting down of
but underneath it, it has gone on not de-escalating, but
the Ukrainian airliner in this case, but I am very willing
escalating the violence. Whether it is in Syria, all the
to hear his points on that and on any initiative related
way down to the Houthis, it has done nothing else but
to it.
use its money to provoke violence and escalate trouble
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I and war. My question to my right hon. Friend is this: at
welcome the efforts of my right hon. Friend and my which point do we really get the idea that this regime is
right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in going to Amman not displaying a peaceful nature and is not going to give
this weekend to express condolences for the death of up on any of its opportunities and that Nazanin Zaghari-
our partner and friend Sultan Qaboos. Does he agree Ratcliffe, like many others, is being held as a hostage?
that, reaching out through friends in the region, particularly When do we decide that, actually, the people of Iran do
Qatar, Kuwait and, of course, the new Sultan Haitham not want this organisation any more and that we want
in Oman, would be a good avenue for making sure that to support them?
Iran not only comes back into the fold and frees its
people from this awful tyranny, but perhaps gives up the Dominic Raab: I thank my right hon. Friend for his
policy of hostage-taking that has taken not just Nazanin question. He makes a range of important points. The
Zaghari-Ratcliffe away from her daughter, but many, reality is that we still view the Joint Comprehensive
many others from their families, too? Plan of Action as the best means of restraining those in
the regime who wish to pursue a nuclear weapon, and
Dominic Raab: Like my hon. Friend, I pay tribute to that is a top priority—our overriding priority—for this
the Sultan of Oman for his incredible track record of Government. In relation to the wider nefarious conduct
service to his country, and we look forward to working of the Government of Iran, I share all of his concerns
with the new Sultan and the Government of Oman on and then some. The reality is that that is why we have
all those issues. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to always supported the Macron and Trump initiatives to
condemn the taking of dual nationals into detention. try to bring Iran back to the diplomatic table and deal
The taking of Nazanin and of all the UK dual nationals with all of those issues in the round—if there is a choice
is groundless. Their treatment has been well below the to be made by the regime. We will continue to hold Iran
standards that we would expect. Fundamentally, they accountable for its actions, while leaving the diplomatic
should all be released without condition. This is part of door ajar. Ultimately, this will have to be resolved
the pattern of unlawful behaviour that Iran needs to through a negotiated diplomatic route. Who knows what
correct if it wants to come in from the international will happen given the current constellation of factors
cold. and the change of circumstances in Iran, but, at some
point, it will have to come to the negotiating table.
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): In his
conversations with his Iranian counterparts about the Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Given the
detention of the UK ambassador, what assurances has parallels between the ruthless and reckless behaviour of
the Secretary of State sought about the rights of other Iran, and the way in which the late and unlamented
peaceful protesters across Iran who do not have the Soviet Union used to behave, does the Foreign Secretary
luxury of diplomatic immunity to protect them? accept that a policy of long-term containment, as worked
in the one case, is probably most likely to work in the
Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. other? If he does accept that, is he satisfied that our
She raises a very important point. The reality is that the American allies are now communicating with us to the
international norms that reflect, recognise and call for extent that they need to so that our troops, who are
the safeguarding of peaceful protest apply across the their partners, are not unduly affected by sudden, dramatic
board. We do make those points to our Iranian partners, initiatives without warning?
761 Iran 13 JANUARY 2020 Iran 762

Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend makes a series in relation to the downing of the airliner is so important—
of important points, including about close consultation not just for the British individuals who lost their lives or
with our American partners. Of course, I discuss these the wider international victims, but also for the people
issues regularly with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. I of Iran, who were the biggest victims when that airliner
am not entirely sure that the analogy with the Soviet went down. We need to ensure that there is transparency
Union is quite right. There is at least the semblance of and answers to questions for all the reasons that my
regular elections in Iran. hon. Friend outlined.

Dr Lewis: There was in the Soviet Union. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Might my right
hon. Friend, and his colleagues in the G7 and other
Dominic Raab: In fairness, not on the same level as in countries, consider looking at freezing the assets of the
Iran. I think the question is the balance between containing children and families of ayatollahs and Government
the nefarious behaviour and ensuring—while holding Ministers in Iran who put so much—billions of dollars—
Iran to account in the way in which my right hon. into the west? Could we not take some action in that
Friend and other hon. Members have mentioned—that regard?
there is still a route back to the negotiating table, and
that is what we are seeking to pursue. Dominic Raab: One of the things that we are doing
and on which we will be collaborating with our international
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I concur with my partners—indeed, I spoke to the US and the Canadians
right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East about this—is shortly introducing a new sanctions regime,
(Dr Lewis); I also believe that Iran is the Soviet Union following the Sergei Magnitsky model, which makes
of the middle east, given what it does and the extent sure, as we leave the EU, that we have an autonomous
of its reach. My question to my right hon. Friend the sanctions regime that can impose asset freezes and visa
Secretary of State is simply this: the United Kingdom bans for those responsible for gross human rights abuses.
and the allies supported dissidents and pro-democracy
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): May I thank my
protesters in the Soviet Union at that time, so what are
right hon. Friend for his continual calls for de-escalation,
we doing specifically to support democracy protesters
for his support for the families of the victims of the
and dissidents in Iran?
aircraft, and for his standing up for British diplomats
around the world? Given that the situation would be so
Dominic Raab: We make it clear in international much more challenging were Iran to have nuclear weapons,
forums—we have done so in the UN, for example—that may I also thank him for his work with France and
we support the right to peaceful protest and freedom of Germany to reboot the JCPOA? Given that Brexit will
expression in Iran. My right hon. Friend will know of happen at the end of this month, can he confirm how he
the already febrile state in Tehran, which would point to sees that relationship with the E3 continuing post
interference in domestic affairs and attempts to usurp 1 February?
the regime. We track a careful balance between standing
up for the norms, values and human rights that he and I Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right on
share, and ensuring that we do not play into the hands the various points that she made. She poses a good
of the hardliners. Ultimately, we want Tehran to make question, but we are absolutely clear: we are leaving the
the choice to take responsibility for its actions, and EU; we are not leaving Europe. This is a good example
we have seen at least a semblance of that with its of where we can engage just as intensively, if not more
acknowledgment that it was responsible for the downing so, with our E3 partners. I know, having spoken to my
of the airliner. We then want the country to take it a French and German opposite numbers, and indeed to
step further by reversing the path towards political and Josep Borrell, that that feeling is shared on all sides. So
economic isolation, and that will only happen if Iran we plan to regularise the meetings that we have on the
comes back to the negotiating table through the diplomatic issue of Iran but also on the wider range of foreign
channel. policy challenges that we all share.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): May I commend what Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con):
the Secretary of State said about Sultan Qaboos, and Will my right hon. Friend assure the House as to the
indeed what my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge assistance that is being given to the families of the
and Malling (Tom Tugendhat)—the other former Chair victims of the Ukrainian International Airlines flight
of the Foreign Affairs Committee—said about the potential and give an assurance that the Government are doing
role of Oman in the future? During this crisis, it was the all they possibly can to help and assist them?
Iranian Supreme Leader who talked about the corrupting
influence of American troops stationed in the region, Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right.
but what has been revealed over the past few days is the Our hearts go out to anyone who has come into this
corrupting influence of the IRG on Iran itself. It is new year and has to face up to the loss of life of a close
holding in place a regime that is frankly illegitimate, as friend or member of their family. We are doing everything
we have seen through the eyes of the demonstrators on that we can, working with our international partners, to
the streets against it. Will we continue to de-escalate the be able to repatriate the victims so that the families can
violence, and to escalate the competition of values in have that solace of paying their last respects. We are
which most Iranian people are on our side? also making sure that we work more generally to get an
independent investigation with credibility, transparency
Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. and an international component so that those families
We can see the anger in Tehran and more generally get the answers to the questions that they must be going
about this state of affairs, which is why the transparency over in their heads over and over again.
763 Iran 13 JANUARY 2020 Iran 764

Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): Following up on the apply on the regime to change its course and to adopt a
point made by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central course that will lead the Government out of political
(Hilary Benn), who is no longer in his place, is there a and economic isolation. The first and foremost beneficiaries
case for the Foreign Office to do some useful and of that will be the people of Iran.
valuable work on updating the Geneva conventions or,
working with others, updating the rules around civilian Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): Does my right hon.
airliners to do more to ensure that civilian airliners are Friend agree that an extremely serious issue we now
not, on a semi-regular basis, being shot out of the sky face is the safety of our armed forces, who have been
using, often very improperly, poorly made Russian kit? described quite disgracefully by a senior commander in
We have had hundreds of people killed, including Britons the Quds force as potentially “collateral damage” in
but also from many other countries, in the past few years. attacks on the US military?

Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend, but the Dominic Raab: Yes, and it is good to see my hon.
reality is that this not about a lack of clarity around the Friend in his place. I remember competing with him in
law. Targeting a civilian airliner is clearly unlawful. an open primary in Esher back in 2009; I think I have
There is no absence or lack of legal basis for making aged more than he has over the last nine years in the last
that point; the question is compliance. The first thing week. He is absolutely right. Crucially, our first priority
we need, which is having Iran acknowledge responsibility is to ensure that UK personnel in the region are safe
for this, is to get the full details—the full facts—of how and that our diplomats are safe. We have changed our
it could have happened. If it is being suggested that it is travel advice, because we need to protect the safety of
a mistake, we need to know how a mistake like that could our wider citizens too.
have happened and then learn the appropriate lessons
from it. That is what we are absolutely committed to. Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): There has been a
pattern of misinformation campaigns coming from Iran
Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): The demonstrations to seek to subvert the extent of its actions in the past.
on the streets of Tehran in which the British ambassador What assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the
was inadvertently caught up follow a large amount of conflicting accounts that have come out of Tehran
similar activity across the country towards the end of about this and other recent incidents?
last year when several hundred Iranians lost their lives.
Can my right hon. Friend confirm that when considering Dominic Raab: The short and honest answer is that it
with his international colleagues the proper response to is difficult to tell, but my hon. Friend asks the right
the events of last week, he and they will be mindful of question. There is clearly a range of different views, not
the fact that large numbers of the Iranian people deplore only in Iranian society but in the Government and,
the actions of the regime under which they live and indeed, around the senior leadership. As I said at the
want nothing more than freedom and the facility to live outset, there is clearly a choice, and I think Iranians are
in peace with their neighbours? conscious of it: do they continue to contravene the
basic principles of international law and the basic tenets
Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend is absolutely that we expect respectable members of the international
right. Of course the aftermath, with the scenes that we community to live up to, or do they take the path out of
are seeing playing out in Tehran, is testament to that. economic and political isolation, which would be in the
What is important is that we allow the transparency for best interests of the people of Iran, let alone the region
people to come to apply the pressure that they need to and, indeed, the international community?
765 13 JANUARY 2020 766

Speaker’s Statement Debate on the Address

Mr Speaker: I want to make a quick statement to
remind Members who may not be aware that, when a [2ND DAY]
Member visits another Member’s constituency, except Debate resumed (Order, 19 December 2019).
on a purely private visit, they should take reasonable Question again proposed,
steps in advance to tell the Member in whose constituency
That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as
the visit is taking place. The guidance also states that follows:
“failing to do so is regarded by colleagues as very discourteous.” Most Gracious Sovereign,
I have had examples from both sides of the House. I just We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons
want to remind everybody that we ought to ensure that of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in
we give notice. Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to
Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has
addressed to both Houses of Parliament.

Britain in the World

4.17 pm
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): On
12 December, the British people had their say. They
delivered a clear majority for this Government and a
mandate to take Britain forward. That mandate, set out
in the Queen’s Speech, marks a bold new chapter for
our country, ambitious, self-confident and global in its
international outlook. We are leaving the EU in 18 days’
time, but we vow to be the strongest of European
neighbours and allies. We are taking back control of
our laws, but we are also expanding our global horizons
to grasp the enormous opportunities of free trade.
While we will always serve the interests of the small
businesses and the citizens of this country, we will also
look to reinforce our national mission as a force for
good in the world.
The UK will leave the EU at the end of this month
because the House passed the European Union (Withdrawal
Agreement) Bill’s Third Reading with a majority of 99,
which is the strongest signal to the EU and the world
about our ambition and resolve as we chart the course
ahead. That clarity of purpose now gives us the opportunity
to be masters of our destiny and chart our course
independently but working very closely with our
international partners. We will strive with our European
friends to secure the best possible arrangements for our
future relationship by the end of 2020—a new relationship
that honours the will of the people in the 2016 referendum
but cherishes the co-operation we have in trade, security
and all the other fields with our European friends.
As we enter this decade of renewal, the Government
will engage in a thorough and careful review of the
United Kingdom’s place in the world, including through
the integrated security, defence and foreign policy review.
It is an opportunity for us to reassess the ways in which
we engage on the global stage, including in defence,
diplomacy and our approach to development, to ensure
that we have a fully integrated strategy. As we conduct
that review, our guiding lights will remain the values of
free trade, democracy, human rights and the international
rule of law.

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

(PC): This is a very wide-ranging review. I think everybody
would agree with that. How is the Foreign Secretary
going to ensure that there is sufficient parliamentary
scrutiny of the review as it is undertaken?
767 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 768

Dominic Raab: We will look at all the mechanisms— fights very hard for the necessary resources to be able
whether debates in this Chamber, or the operation and to recreate the capacity of a Rolls-Royce Department
scrutiny of the Select Committees—and, indeed, we of State?
already welcome the input of individual MPs, caucuses
and Select Committees in the normal way. We will make Dominic Raab: Quite right, and I welcome my hon.
sure that there is proper scrutiny and that we can bring Friend’s support as I make those overtures to the Treasury.
as many people together as possible in charting the
course for the UK as we go forward.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab):
Will the Foreign Secretary give way?
James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Does my right
hon. Friend not agree with me that there have been
many security and defence reviews over the years and Dominic Raab: Of course, and I am sure the hon.
they have all been hampered by one thing in particular, Lady is going to be supporting the Foreign Office in the
which is that they happened at precisely the same moment next spending review.
as a comprehensive spending review? I very much welcome
his announcement of this very extensive review—it is Catherine West: I will, indeed, given that a comparison
the right time to do it—but does he not agree that it across all Departments shows that the Foreign Office
must be done independently of the Treasury? We must has been cut back at least as badly as the Ministry of
decide what Britain is for and what assets we need to Housing, Communities and Local Government. May I
achieve that, and then only subsequently—a year later— urge, in any review of finance, that we look carefully at
should the Treasury become involved. the ability for human rights to be at the forefront of
what the Foreign Office does? Traditionally, that has
Dominic Raab: I am not sure it is likely to work been strong; it is less so now.
exactly as my hon. Friend suggests, but I do take his
point. We need to be very clear in our minds about the Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Lady and I think,
strategy we are charting and then reconcile our means, given what I am about to say, that I will be able to give
including our financial means, to those ends, so he makes her the kind of reassurance she needs. I look forward to
an important point. working with her in the weeks and months ahead to
make sure that we never lose sight of our values, and
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): In support human rights is a key component of that.
of what my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire We will strengthen our historical trading ties as we
(James Gray) has said, may I remind the Foreign Secretary leave the EU, while boosting British competitiveness by
that, in 2017-18, we had a national security capability tapping wider global markets. We want strong trade
review that sought to look at both security and defence with our existing EU partners. They are important and
together, but it was so limited by having to be financially valuable to us as a market; I do not think anyone doubts
or fiscally neutral that it meant that extra resources for, that. At the same time, we are making good progress in
for example, cyber-warfare would be granted only at the paving the way for our first round of future free trade
cost of making cuts in, for example, the Royal Marines? agreements with the rest of the world. When I was out
That is no way to conduct a review—to play off one in the US, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told me in
necessary part, say security, against another necessary Washington that the US is poised
part, such as defence.
“at the doorstep, pen in hand”,
Dominic Raab: I think my right hon. Friend makes an ready to sign a deal. A free trade deal with the US
important point, although at the same time we need to would boost businesses, create jobs, reduce the cost of
be mindful of the overarching financial parameters that living and expand consumer choice on both sides of the
any Government—any responsible Government—are Atlantic, so there is a huge opportunity for a win-win
going to be within if we are to make credible investment deal.
decisions. Certainly, on the issue of cyber and its being
somehow nudged out of focus or set up as a zero-sum Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP):
game with troops, I can assure him that that will not be Will the Foreign Secretary give way?
the case. Cyber increasingly plays an important role not
just in our security, but in our ability to project our
Dominic Raab: I want to make some progress but will
foreign policy.
be happy to take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman
shortly.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Will the Foreign Secretary
give way? It is also at the same time important that we broaden
our horizons to embrace the huge opportunities in
Dominic Raab: I will give way one more time and the rising economies of the future from Asia to Latin
then make some progress. America, and set out our stall as a global champion of
free trade not just bilaterally but in the WTO as well.
Crispin Blunt: This is on the same theme. It is my Of course, a truly global Britain is about more than
right hon. Friend’s Department that has suffered the just trade and investment, important though those things
worst cuts over the last period because it has been an are for our prosperity and the quality of life we have in
unprotected Department. What we must do if we are to this country; global Britain is also about continuing to
direct defence, development and the intelligent services uphold our values of liberal democracy and our heartfelt
in the right direction is to have the capacity within commitment to the international rule of law—values
his Department to do that. Will he ensure that he for which we are respected the world over.
769 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 770

Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): We will use our moral compass to champion the causes
Does the Foreign Secretary agree that nowhere in the that know no borders. This year we have the opportunity—
world at the moment are these values under greater and the honour and privilege—to host the UN climate
attack than in Hong Kong, and will he join me in change summit COP26 in Glasgow, and that is the
condemning the refusal of the Hong Kong authorities UK’s chance to demonstrate global leadership on climate
to allow the director of Human Rights Watch entry at change. Under the Conservatives, we are the first country
the weekend? to legislate to end our contribution to global warming,
and this Government know that we must leave the
Dominic Raab: I do join with the right hon. Gentleman environment in a better state for our children.
in making the following point. The international principles
and norms and the rule of law in relation to freedom of Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I
peaceful protest and freedom of expression apply as a thank the Foreign Secretary for referring to the emergency
matter of customary international law; it also applies that is climate change and legislation to bring about a
directly because of the joint Sino-UK declaration in net-zero economy, but legislation is not enough; we
relation to Hong Kong. Of course we want China as a need to see actual implementation. Does he agree that
leading member of the international community to live the UK has much more to do to deliver on a green
up to those responsibilities, and the case the right hon. industrial revolution, which means that we can continue
Gentleman highlights is a very good example of that. to be an industrial nation while having a net-zero economy,
before 2050?
We will continue to be standing up for those values.
We will continue to be a leading member of NATO, Dominic Raab: I agree with all of those things and
ensuring that that alliance can rise to the new challenges pay tribute to the hon. Lady for the way in which she
ahead. We will hold Iran accountable for its destabilising articulated her intervention. We need to make sure we
and dangerous actions in the region, but we will also, as have the legislation in place, we need to work with our
we made clear in the response to my right hon. Friend international partners, and we will harness the British
the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) earlier, expertise—the technology, the innovation and the
encourage it to de-escalate and to seek a path to an entrepreneurialism that this country is so great at—to
alternative future through diplomatic dialogue. find the creative solutions so that we leave our precious
We will call out those who flout international law, like environment in a better state for the next generation.
the Russian Government, from its illegal annexation in The Government are also proud to maintain our
Crimea and its chemical weapons attack in Salisbury to commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income on
its cyber-attacks and its propensity for spreading fake international development. We want to support developing
news. countries, so that they can stand on their own two feet.
We are helping them to strengthen their economies,
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: On Russia, and indeed make peace and forge security arrangements that are
to go back to what the Foreign Secretary said on the sustainable, so that their people are healthier and have a
US, the United States has been vocal in its opposition better standard of living.
to Nord Stream 2, correctly in my view, and the United
Kingdom Government have taken the view that it has Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): In
little to nothing to do with the United Kingdom. Can highlighting the importance of our 0.7% commitment
he assure me that that will be looked at properly in the with regard to international development, does the
integrated review he mentions, because it very much is Foreign Secretary agree that, as in our manifesto, one of
in our interests that Nord Stream 2 does not go ahead? the most effective ways we can spend that money is to
ensure that every girl in the world gets 12 years of quality
Dominic Raab: I take the point the hon. Gentleman education?
made, and he made it eloquently. We will consider all
those issues as part of the review, and it is important Dominic Raab: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I
that we get the right balance; that is the most I will say will come on to say a little bit more about that, because
for the moment. it is one of the crucial campaigns we are taking forward.
We should not be so shy about the incredible work
we are doing. We are proud of our role in working to
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Will the Foreign eliminate preventable deaths and overcome diseases such
Secretary give way? as Ebola and malaria. We will be there for those who
need our help most in their hour of need, as we demonstrated
Dominic Raab: Let me make a little progress as I have with our world-leading humanitarian response capability,
been generous, but I will be happy to give way again in which was put into action in the Bahamas following
the future. Hurricane Dorian. Being a force for good in the world
We will call out those who flout international law. We also means championing basic human rights. Coming
will live up to our responsibilities, as the right hon. on to the point raised by my hon. Friend, we are leading
Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) global action to help to provide 12 years of quality
asked, in relation to the people of Hong Kong. That education for all girls by 2030 so that no girl is left
means supporting their right to peaceful protest and behind, all their potential is tapped, and they can realise
encouraging dialogue on all sides within the one country, their ambitions individually and for their countries.
two systems framework that China itself has consistently We are also proud to continue, with our Canadian
advocated since the Sino-British joint declaration in partners, our work to defend media freedoms. I was in
1984, a treaty which has and holds international obligations Montreal last week to talk about that with my Canadian
on all sides. opposite number. Led by our two countries, we are
771 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 772

working with partners around the world to create legislative done—I remember serving with him on the Joint Committee
protections for journalists; support individual journalists on Human Rights many years ago when we first came
who find themselves at risk; and increase accountability to Parliament. Will he confirm that freedom of religion
for those who threaten journalists whose work shines a or belief will always be a key priority for the United
light on conflicts and tyranny around the world. We are Kingdom? Eighty per cent. of individuals around the
dedicated to shielding those with the courage to speak world identify themselves as of one faith or another,
truth to power. On that note, I will give way to the SNP. and our Government have a strong track record of
standing up for freedom of religion or belief. They
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: I am extremely grateful commissioned the Truro review, and 10 out of its
to the Foreign Secretary for that attempt at humour. 22 recommendations have been taken forward. Will he
[Laughter.] I thank the Foreign Secretary for what he confirm that that will always be a key priority? I thank
has just said. He is entirely correct. Will he do everything him and his Ministers for their support.
in his power—this was the subject of the first debate I
ever had as a Member of this House five years ago—to Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend and pay
secure the release of the jailed Saudi writer Raif Badawi? tribute to him for his extraordinary work and dedication
to implementing the Truro conclusions. I confirm that
Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman. The we absolutely want to protect not just individual freedom
important thing, when we are dealing with Saudi Arabia, of expression, but the rights of religious groups as well
China, Iran and all those partners with whom we have, as the right for people to exercise their faith and conscience.
let us say, difficult issues to address—Saudi, of course, One of the issues that I discussed with Foreign Minister
is a very close partner—is that we are always, particularly François-Philippe Champagne in Canada on Thursday
with the closer relationships we have, such as with Saudi was a new global award for media freedoms that we
and other middle eastern partners, willing and able to have announced to recognise those who defend journalists
speak very candidly. I have raised human rights issues and keep the flame of freedom alive in the darkest
with my Saudi opposite number and will continue to do corners of the world. That is not just because we want
so, including in relation to cases such as the one the to protect them individually, but because transparency
hon. Gentleman highlights. and getting the stories out and holding regimes, and
often, non-Government actors to account can happen
Mr Steve Baker: My right hon. Friend will know that only if we get the facts. Journalists do an incredibly
for people like me who represent diverse diaspora brave job in getting those facts into the public domain.
communities, the internal and external affairs of other Once we have left the EU and regained control of our
countries often raise issues of the most acute local sanctions rules, the Government will implement the
importance. I do not want to draw him on to Kashmir Magnitsky provisions of the Sanctions and Anti-Money
today, but will he, in the course of his reviews, consider Laundering Act 2018. That will give us a powerful new
how foreign policy might be made more democratically tool to hold the perpetrators of the worst human rights
accountable? The reality, particularly when foreign policy abuses to account.
survives between Governments of successive parties, is
that it does not actually survive contact with the electorates
in constituencies like mine. I wonder whether foreign Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Will my right
policy might somehow be more responsive to what voters hon. Friend give way?
think when they are from those diaspora communities.
Dominic Raab: I will, for the last time.
Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If
Brexit was in part a reaction by the British people to Bob Blackman: In the Conservative manifesto, three
having decisions imposed on them, I think there is a conflict zones were specifically mentioned: Israel and
wider lesson in foreign policy that we are there to serve the middle east, Sri Lanka and Cyprus. Will my right
our citizens, including communities such as those that hon. Friend give us a further illustration of what action
are very powerful and contribute a huge amount in the Foreign Office will take in those three regions to
Wycombe. More generally, we can see that with consular help to end those conflicts and bring perpetrators of
cases, for example the recent case in Cyprus, the Ukrainian war crimes to justice?
airliner case and others where we represent individual
citizens who have suffered or lost lives. There needs to Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is right: those three
be a sensitivity to individual citizens, whether they are areas remain a priority. There is a huge amount of
the victims or the communities more broadly, and a strong diplomatic work. We talk to our international partners,
sense that the Foreign Office is not just on a different including not only our traditional partners—the Europeans,
level but is acting and serving for them. Americans and Canadians—but those in the regions of
I would just like to take this opportunity to pay a the different conflicts, about not just the importance of
huge tribute to the consular department in the Foreign getting peace, but the kind of reconciliation that can
Office, which day in, day out is serving the interests of come only with some accountability for the worst human
British families, British victims and British nationals. rights abuses. Bringing into effect the Magnitsky regime
It rarely gets the credit that is due to it, but it does a is our opportunity to build and reinforce that at home.
superb job. I have seen that in my six months as Foreign
Secretary and I am very proud of the work they do. Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con):
Will my right hon. Friend give way one more time?
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I
welcome the Foreign Secretary’s commitment on human Dominic Raab: For my hon. Friend, I will—one more
rights and I thank him for the fantastic work he has time.
773 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 774

Mr Vara: I am most grateful. Does the Foreign when he was Foreign Secretary and thinking about the
Secretary agree that one of the United Kingdom’s assets chance of taking him on in the future. I want to read to
is the diversity of its population? For example, within the House one of the responses he gave to me in March
the UK, we have some 1.5 million people of Indian origin, 2017 when I asked our future Prime Minister about
who provide a living bridge in terms of our contact and the Trump Administration’s reported desire to withdraw
help to strengthen our relationship with India. Likewise, from the Paris climate agreement. I say this just to reassure
there are other communities here who provide a strong every Member, especially the newer ones on both sides,
link with other countries. Does he agree that as we seek that our country is in the safest of hands and in the care
to strengthen our role on the global stage, that can only of the most insightful of minds. This is what he said in
help us? response to my concerns about Donald Trump, the
Paris agreement and other issues:
Dominic Raab: I entirely agree. The Indian community “With great respect, I must say that I think the right hon. Lady
make an incredible contribution and help us to sell UK is again being far too pessimistic…. We were told that the JCPOA”—
plc abroad not just in India, but around the world, as do the nuclear deal with Iran—
many other communities. The point that was made by “was going to be junked; it is now pretty clear that America
my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) supports it.”—
is that we need to not just respect and safeguard the
supports it!—
interests of those communities, but be proud of them
and enable and empower them to champion the UK on “We were told that there was going to be a great love-in
between the new US Administration and Russia; they are now
our behalf. My hon. Friend the Member for North West very much…in line. As for climate change, I think the right hon.
Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) makes an excellent point. Lady is once again being too pessimistic. Let us wait and see. We
From our brave armed forces serving on the frontline have heard the mutterings of the right hon. Lady; let us see what
to the diplomats nurturing our relations with nations the American Administration actually do. I think she will be
around the world, and the aid workers providing life-saving pleasantly surprised, as she has been, if she were remotely intellectually
support to those who need it most, British foreign honest, in all other respects.”—[Official Report, 28 March 2017;
Vol. 624, c. 116.]
policy will of course serve the citizens of this country,
but we are also proud of our ability to make a difference That was the strategic genius who is now in charge of
to the poorest, the oppressed and the most vulnerable our country, the intellectually honest politician, who, to
around the world. We will continue that effort every day be honest, clearly has no intellect. After all, as I have
of every week, because that is our calling as a country just recounted, in the space of just one answer to one
and that is the mission of this Conservative Government. question from me, he made four catastrophic and careless
misjudgments on foreign policy issues—and that is
4.39 pm before we get started on the hopeless faith in Trump’s
son-in-law to negotiate a middle east peace deal, his
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) horribly reckless treatment of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe,
(Lab): I start by welcoming my new Front-Bench colleagues, his craven attempts to champion monsters such as
my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton Crown Prince Salman and President Sisi, his disgraceful
(Afzal Khan), who brings a wealth of experience and jokes about clearing dead bodies to make way for golf
passion on foreign policy issues, and my hon. Friend the courses in Libya, his leading role in the unlawful sale of
Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle), arms for use in Yemen and his shameful inaction on
who has been a thorn in the side of the Government holding Myanmar to account for its genocidal treatment
over unlawful arms sales. He is now even closer to the of the Rohingya.
Mace—should the urge ever take him again. So we now have a Prime Minister in place for the next
I am, however, deeply sorry to lose from the Front five years with no heart when it comes to human rights
Bench and our Parliament our good friends Helen and civilian deaths, no brain when it comes to Donald
Goodman and Liz McInnes. They were both fabulous Trump and the fate of jailed Britons and no courage
constituency MPs and very well liked Members of the when it comes to taking on tyrants overseas. When it
House, and their contributions on foreign policy from comes to foreign policy, he is the Tin Man, the Scarecrow
this Dispatch Box and in Westminster Hall were always and the Cowardly Lion rolled into one, and he hasn’t
constructive but forceful. Whether it was Helen’s brilliant got Dorothy to help him; he just has a pair of Dominics.
work in forcing the Government to introduce the Magnitsky
sanctions or her campaigning for the Uighurs in China Mr Vara: As the right hon. Lady is in full flow in
or Liz’s passionate efforts to draw attention to the criticising colleagues, will she take this opportunity to
plight of civilians being attacked by their own Governments criticise the present leader of the Labour party for his
in Cameroon and Sudan, they both made a great antisemitism and for presiding over a party that has
contribution to the public discourse and will be sadly done very little to rectify the issue? Will she also criticise
missed from those debates. her leader for his friendship with Hamas and other
On a personal note, may I also say how delighted I terrorists who have been directly involved in attacking
am to be facing the Foreign Secretary today? In the British citizens?
national hunt season, it is apt to say that both of us got
away quickly in our respective party leadership stakes. I Emily Thornberry: I have made it perfectly clear that
joined him in making it over the first fence. I hope that, it is my belief that our party has not dealt with antisemitism
unlike him, I do not fall at the second, but I do hope in the way that it should have, but I know my right hon.
that whoever wins, the outcome on our side will be Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)
better for the country than the outcome on his. I found and he is not antisemitic. I have nothing—[Interruption.]
myself at the weekend looking through some of my old If the hon. Gentleman will stop heckling me, I will move
exchanges with the Prime Minister at this Dispatch Box on to the second half of—
775 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 776

Mr Vara rose— Among all those vacuous, meaningless lines that Her
Majesty was forced to read out, there is one of greater
Emily Thornberry: I am not giving way to the hon. interest in the foreign policy section of the speech, which
Gentleman again, so he can sit down. I would like to highlight:
“My Government will take steps to protect the integrity of
James Gray: On a point of order, Madam Deputy democracy and the electoral system in the United Kingdom.”
Speaker. I am a little unclear about the precise ruling on
this matter, but a moment or two ago, the right hon. Let us bear in mind that those words were drafted by
Lady, who speaks from the Front Bench for the Labour Downing Street for our sovereign to read out in front
party, described the Prime Minister as a cowardly liar. of Parliament. That was a solemn promise from the
Is that really within the highest standards that we use Government, in Her Majesty’s name, to protect the
this House? integrity of democracy here in Britain. Yet here we are,
still waiting—still waiting!—for the Government to publish
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am the Intelligence and Security Committee’s report on Russian
sure that the right hon. Member for Islington South interference with our democracy.
and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) will know that I was Shortly before the election, the Foreign Secretary
listening very carefully and my interpretation was that, stood at the Dispatch Box and told us that the delay was
had she said that any Member of this House was a perfectly normal because it usually took six weeks for
cowardly lion, or words to that effect, I would have ISC reports to be published, although this report had
stopped her. I have given her the benefit of the doubt, in already been cleared in full by the Committee and the
that she was drawing an allegory from a well-known work intelligence services, and just needed to be signed off by
of fiction, but it is marginal, and I think she knows that. Downing Street. Most important, of course, it needed
to be signed off by the two architects of the leave
Emily Thornberry: I was talking about a pair of campaign and renowned friends of Russian oligarchs,
Dominics, which explains why we are having today’s the Prime Minister and Dominic Cummings.
debate on the international aspects of the Queen’s Speech, Six weeks, the Foreign Secretary told us, but how
which, Brexit and extradition policy aside, has absolutely long has Downing Street now been sitting on the report?
nothing new to say on foreign policy, defence or I will tell you how long: 12 weeks and five days. Now we
international development, at a time when the world is are told that it has been cleared for publication, but that
crying out for new initiatives and global leadership on can only happen when the new Intelligence and Security
these issues. At a time when Her Majesty has got quite Committee is convened. On behalf of the former Chair
enough on her plate, I ask all her supporters in the of the ISC, Dominic Grieve, who is sadly no longer in
House whether it was really necessary to waste her time the House, let me read on to the record his reaction to
asking her to read out the following lines, drafted by that news. He said:
Downing Street: “The fact that he”
“My Government will honour the Armed Forces Covenant…and
the NATO commitment to spend at least two per cent of national
—the Prime Minister—
income on defence.” “has been able to sanction its publication now shows that in fact it
was perfectly possible to sanction its publication before parliament
Nothing new, no substance behind it—that is a statement was dissolved…The reasons he gave at the time for non-publication
that sounds all too hollow to our armed forces families were bogus.”
livingonsubstandardsalariesinsubstandardaccommodation.
So there we have it: bogus arguments, bogus timetables,
Let me continue: bogus excuses, and still no sign of the ISC report. Yet
“As the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, my this Government have the barefaced cheek to ask Her
Government will ensure that it continues to play a leading role in Majesty to announce that they are protecting the integrity
global affairs, defending its interests and promoting its values.” of our democracy.
Nothing new, no substance behind it, and it bears no In the absence of anything else of substance on
relation to reality when it comes to our role in the world foreign affairs in the Queen’s Speech, let me raise some
under this Government. Let me continue: of the other issues that were not mentioned, and ask the
“My Government will be at the forefront of efforts to solve Minister who winds up the debate to address them.
the…complex international security issues.” First, may I ask what on earth has happened to the
Nothing new, no substance behind it, and it is at odds Trump Administration’s so-called middle east plan?
with a Government who cannot even explain the strategy Has the Foreign Office still not had any sight of that
for Syria, Libya or Yemen, Iran, Israel or Palestine, let plan? Is there even a plan to look at? Now that he is in a
alone the ongoing crisis with Iran. place of greater influence, perhaps the Prime Minister
There is more: will press ahead with the international summit that he
“My Government…will champion global free trade and work promised to convene as Foreign Secretary, so that we,
alongside international partners to solve the most pressing global and our fellow allies with an interest in the middle east,
challenges.” can spell out our red lines on the American plan. Or will
Waffle, waffle, waffle—nothing new, no substance behind he go one better, and use such a summit to demand that
it—[Interruption.] Unfortunately, I am quoting Her if the Trump Administration keep prevaricating, we
Majesty, who had those words written for her by the and others will resume the role of honest broker between
people at No. 10—nothing new, no substance behind Israel and Palestinian that Donald Trump is clearly
any of it, and an insult, when we consider how this incapable of fulfilling?
Prime Minister actively acquiesced when his friend and Secondly, talking of honest brokers, may I ask—for
hero, Donald Trump, started ducking all those global what is now the fourth year running since I became
challenges and actively making them all worse, and told shadow Defence Secretary—why the Government are
me that I was being pessimistic for warning as much. still refusing to use the power vested in them by the
777 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 778

[Emily Thornberry] Dominic Raab: It is not true. We take issue with the
report. There have been a whole series of initiatives to
United Nations to draft a Security Council resolution take this forward, and it remains a key priority and
demanding an immediate and comprehensive ceasefire agenda item for the Government. We do not accept this,
in Yemen, to be observed by all parties? Yemen has just based on either the figures that the right hon. Lady has
started its second year at the top of the International provided or the level of diplomatic work that has gone
Rescue Committee’s rankings for the world’s worst in. We will ensure that there is a fuller account, and I
humanitarian crisis. How many more years do its people can write to her if that would be useful.
need to suffer before the Government finally pull their
finger out and do their job at the United Nations? Emily Thornberry: I am grateful to the right hon.
Thirdly—this is a related matter—it is now more than Gentleman. I would like to know whether it is right
15 months since the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Last that, for example, the number of experts has dropped
month, we saw the horrific spectacle in Riyadh of four from 70 to 40. Could he perhaps tell us that? Is it right
junior Saudi operatives being sentenced to execution that the budget has fallen from £15 million to £2 million
while all Bin Salman’s most senior aides were cleared of and that, instead of there being 34 staff, there are only
all charges. The Government have consistently asked four including an intern? What conclusions can we draw
us to have confidence that justice will be done by the from that? Perhaps we can particularly focus on that,
Saudi authorities. Well, that was not justice. So I ask the because it seems to be a damning indictment of this
Government, yet again, when they will publish their Government.
own assessment of who was responsible for ordering
and carrying out the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, and Dominic Raab: We have committed £46 million since
when they will deliver the “serious consequences” that 2012. Our upcoming international conference in November
were promised from the Dispatch Box will bring together countries from around the world to
focus on justice and accountability. On that basis alone,
Fourthly, it was distressing last week to read the
to say that this has dropped off the radar is clearly
report of the Independent Commission for Aid Impact
nonsense. We hosted the global summit to end sexual
into the Foreign Office’s prevention of sexual violence
violence in conflict in June 2014. We are the only
initiative, which was intended to tackle the global use of
Government in the world to have a special representative
rape as a weapon of war. We welcomed that initiative at
for taking that forward, and the only Government in
the time, but we now read in the commission’s report
the world to have a dedicated team and funding focused
that “ministerial interest waned” after William Hague
on tackling conflict-related sexual violence. And because
left the Foreign Office—[Interruption.] That is a quote
actions matter more than words, our team has completed
from the report, which goes on to say that
more than 90 deployments to places from Libya to
“staffing and funding levels dropped precipitously”.
northern Iraq and the Syrian borders, and we look
The commitment to the campaign in London fell and a forward to continuing that crucial work. So I am afraid
budget of £15 million and 34 staff in 2014 has fallen to that the right hon. Lady has again got her facts wrong.
£2 million and four workers, including the intern.
Emily Thornberry: It is interesting that, in answering
Catherine West: First, I congratulate my right hon. my question, the right hon. Gentleman relies on spending
Friend on the progress that she made earlier today. that has happened since 2012. I accept that in 2014 the
Does my right hon. Friend agree that we cannot just budget was £15 million and there were 34 staff. My
talk the talk? This is about matching the resource to the point is that now, in 2020, under this Government, the
priority, and sadly, violence against women and girls in budget is £2 million and there are four workers, one of
areas of conflict does appear to have dropped down the whom is an intern. That is the point. We cannot just
agenda under this Government. keep rolling back to previous things. My point is that
this started well, but is now trailing off and is no longer
Emily Thornberry: My hon. Friend makes a powerful a priority. That is an indictment of the current Government.
point, and the report confirms that. The budget has This is what being held to account looks like—
been cut, and the group of experts who are supposed to [Interruption.] The point is what they are doing now,
lead overseas support to the victims of sexual violence today; that is what is important. They cannot rely on
in war zones has been cut from 70 to 40. This is a what happened eight years ago.
damning indictment of a Government who have steadily
If I might move on, I have a fifth point, which is on
deprioritised the importance of human rights since the
Iran. I echo everything my hon. Friend the Member for
departure of William Hague and who now treat them as
Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) said in response
an afterthought next to the vital importance of doing
to the urgent question earlier. As he rightly said, the rest
trade deals with human rights abusers. [Interruption.]
of the world cannot sit back and wait and see what
If Foreign Office Ministers reject that charge, let them
happens. As we saw with the disgraceful shooting down
stand up and explain themselves over the downgrading
of the Ukrainian airliner, we are now only one misdirected
of sexual violence as a priority.
missile away from not just further appalling loss of life,
Dominic Raab: Wrong. but an escalation of violence and brinkmanship that
could finally topple all of us into war with a country
Emily Thornberry: The right hon. Gentleman says that is five times the size of Iraq and nine times the size
that that is wrong. If he would like to get up and explain of Syria and that has a population of 83 million people.
how it is that the budget has fallen to that extent That cannot be allowed to happen.
and how that is not evidence that this is no longer Hard as it is, I believe that the UN and the EU need
being prioritised, he is welcome to intervene on me right to go back to the drawing board, get all the parties
now. around the table, and discuss how we can revive the
779 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 780

process of engagement, starting with getting the nuclear Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): The gravity school
deal back on track. What actions are the Government of economics argues that we always trade more with
taking to that end? those closest to us, but does my right hon. Friend agree
In closing—I will not take any further interventions—I that the history of the past 200 years suggests the
said at the outset that I have been looking at my past opposite? We have taken beef from Argentina, we have
debates with the current Prime Minister, and I note that had a closer economic relationship with the United
he is to the art of prescience in foreign policy what Basil States than with any other single country, and we have
Fawlty was to customer service. I looked back at our Queen’s incredibly close relationships with India, to which we
Speech debate in 2017—I believe it was the only one in sold cotton, and with Australia and Canada. Does he
which he took part as Foreign Secretary—and what is so agree with me—this is the point he is making—that the
depressing is that, just like today, I had to point out that gravity school of economics is really rather flawed?
there were no new policy initiatives to discuss: a total
vacuum where British global leadership should be; no Mr Whittingdale: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is
solutions on Iran, Yemen, Syria, North Korea or Libya; short-sighted to look at nearby countries only. Our
silence on Russia, China, Iraq, Afghanistan and the middle history shows that we have a tradition of trading right
east; and a pathetic paucity of action on climate change. across the globe—I am delighted to have the nod of my
I closed my speech two and half years ago with words right hon Friend the Secretary of State for International
that I will repeat now. Unlike the current Prime Minister, Trade, who is in her place.
every word I said has been proven utterly true and is just Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I have spent quite a
as depressingly relevant today. I said: lot of my life serving the country well outside of Europe,
“Why is…this Tory Queen’s Speech such a blank space with and I say in support of what my right hon. Friend says
regard to foreign policy?...their sole foreign policy ambition is to
stay in lockstep with Donald Trump, whatever hill he chooses to
that we still punch well above our weight when we are in
march us up next. That means we are left with a Government who Asia or in Africa.
no longer know their own mind on foreign policy because they
are beholden to a President who keeps changing his…we could Mr Whittingdale: I am grateful to my hon. Friend,
have a Britain that actually has a foreign policy of its own—a because he brings me on to the issue that I wanted to
Britain ready once again to be a beacon of strength and security, raise—
prosperity and values for every country around the world. This
Queen’s Speech does nothing to advance that. This Government Chi Onwurah rose—
are doing nothing to advance that.—[Official Report, 26 June 2017;
Vol. 626, cc. 424-25.] Mr Whittingdale: But before doing so I will give way
Two and a half years later, as someone once said, to the hon. Lady.
absolutely nothing has changed.
Chi Onwurah: The right hon. Gentleman is being
5.3 pm generous. I fear that the hon. Member for Isle of Wight
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I am most (Bob Seely) is confusing gravity with geography. Of
grateful to be called so early in this debate, Madam course, it is entirely possible to trade with nations around
Deputy Speaker, and to follow the right hon. Member the world, but the issue in today’s integrated supply
for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), chains is the speed with which parts can be delivered
who raised some important issues. I wish her success in into advanced automated manufacturing. Is the right
the campaign she is about to embark on, and I hope her hon. Gentleman arguing that it is equally quick and
candidacy lasts a little longer than that of the hon. efficient to get a part from Chicago as it is to get it from
Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), who has Munich, for example?
just left the Chamber.
It is good to see so many hon. Members in the Mr Whittingdale: I understand the hon. Lady’s argument,
Chamber for this debate, particularly new Members, a but this is not a binary choice. I want us to have a strong
number of whom intend to make their maiden speech trading agreement with the European Union, and I am
during the course of it. They bring expertise and knowledge confident that we will obtain that under this Government,
that I have no doubt will be immensely valuable in but that does not exclude us from also having much
our deliberations, and I look forward to hearing their stronger trading relationships with other countries around
contributions. the world.
As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary knows, Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con): Will my right
I was an enthusiastic supporter of the Vote Leave hon. Friend give way?
campaign. I welcome the emphasis placed by the Queen’s
Speech on delivering Brexit, which people voted for Mr Whittingdale: I will give way perhaps one last time.
more than three years ago. I support Brexit not just
because I believe in the economic opportunities, but Suella Braverman: I am grateful to my right hon.
because I believe there is a real role that this country can Friend, who is making an excellent speech and many
play in international affairs. We are not little Englanders; points with which I agree. On the point raised by the
we want to look beyond the shores of the European hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi
Union. Indeed, many of our greatest opportunities now Onwurah), does my right hon. Friend agree that our
lie in countries beyond Europe. It is likely within the focus will rightly be on negotiating a good trade deal
next 10 years that the five biggest economies in the with the EU after Brexit day? However, our ability to
world will be America, China, Brazil, India and Indonesia. negotiate with the US is just as important. Both are
None of them have trade agreements with the European vital to increase export opportunities for UK businesses,
Union, but I hope we will have trade agreements with but the US trade agreement is important so that we can
them as soon as possible within the next decade. increase our leverage with the EU.
781 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 782

Mr Whittingdale: I agree with my hon. Friend. I hope Soft power allows us to exert a far greater influence in
that we will get on with negotiating those agreements the world than our size would perhaps suggest. The UK
simultaneously as soon as possible. is perhaps the most effective country in the world in
Coming back to the point made by my hon. Friend deploying soft power. We have huge assets, perhaps the
the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) about the greatest of which is the English language, which is the
strength of our voice in international affairs, I understand second language of almost every country in the world.
that some of our partners in the European Union will We take advantage of that, and students from all across
miss our voice within the Council. We have been a the world want to come to study in British schools and
strong voice on issues such as standing up to Russia and British universities.
the imposition of sanctions, but there are many other We use the British Council to promote UK culture
opportunities for us to have a decisive influence. We are around the world, and I encourage my right hon. Friend
still a member of the United Nations Security Council, the Secretary of State to continue giving full support to
and we are the second biggest contributor to NATO. the British Council in its excellent work. The other
We will play an active role in the Council of Europe organisation with which I have had some involvement
and in the Organisation for Security and Co-operation over recent years is the BBC, and I am an absolute
in Europe, where I am proud to be a member of the supporter of the BBC World Service. The World Service
Parliamentary Assembly. is now approaching its target of reaching 500 million
I want to highlight one particular organisation— people every week. It is by far the most respected media
I happen to be the chair of the British group—and that organisation internationally, and its reports are not
is the Inter-Parliamentary Union. I would encourage regarded as propaganda or fake news. People across the
new Members to get involved in the IPU. It was founded world rely on the BBC World Service.
130 years ago by Randal Cremer, a British statesman,
and Frédéric Passy, a Frenchman, and we have recently Catherine West: The right hon. Gentleman is making
celebrated that anniversary. It now comprises 179 countries, an excellent contribution on the BBC World Service.
and its purpose is to strengthen relations between Does he agree that part of the current issue in Iran is the
Parliaments. It is possible to pursue issues through worrying pressure that BBC Persian journalists are
parliamentary dialogue that are sometimes impossible being put under due to the current chaos in Iran?
to raise between Governments, and I will give one or
two examples. It was in 1984 that the IPU invited a Mr Whittingdale: I entirely agree with the hon. Lady.
delegation to the UK from the Soviet Union. The I was delighted to host an IPU/BBC World Service
delegation was led by a then pretty much unknown event at which we heard from the head of the BBC Persian
Russian politician called Mikhail Gorbachev. That led service. Its journalists are all based in London, and they
to the meeting between Margaret Thatcher and Mikhail dare not travel to Iran. It is their families who are being
Gorbachev and, as a result, it eventually led to the reform harassed and persecuted, which is wholly unacceptable,
of the Soviet Union. Indeed, it led to the collapse of and I know it is one of the issues that my right hon.
communism and the break-up of the Soviet Union. Friend the Foreign Secretary has raised and, I hope, will
continue to raise.
Bob Stewart: You were probably there, John.
I chair the all-party parliamentary group on media
Mr Whittingdale: I was not quite there. freedom, and this is an excellent example. I commend
I also point to the dialogue we have built up over a the Government’s work on media freedom. It was my
number of years between parliamentarians from the right hon. Friend’s predecessor, my right hon. Friend
UK and those of Argentina, and the good relations that the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), who
now exist between our two countries have been fostered made media freedom a priority and who hosted the
through that dialogue. We also have dialogue with North international conference in London last year. I am
Korea. I hope we will continue to give our full support delighted that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary
to the IPU, which is a valuable organisation for developing is continuing that work and has already told the House
relations with countries with which there are sometimes about his recent meeting with the Canadians, who have
considerable tensions. also led on this.
We have made some progress. Forty-nine journalists
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will my right
died last year, which is a historically low figure, but it is
hon. Friend add the Commonwealth to his list of
still 49 too many. Perhaps worryingly, a greater proportion
organisations that will be increasingly important? We
than in previous years died outside conflict zones and
have a number of very close ties with the Commonwealth,
were perhaps deliberately targeted, often by their own
to which we need to add free trade ties. We will be able
Government. Three hundred and eighty-nine journalists
to do that once we are no longer represented by the
are still in prison around the world, with nearly half of
European Union, which has not done it. In connection
them in three countries: China, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
to that, does he think it would be a good idea for
Her Majesty’s Government now to offer practical help In her speech, the right hon. Member for Islington
to Australia at her time of trouble? A lot of people in South and Finsbury talked about the death of Jamal
this country feel we have close links with Australia and Khashoggi. I completely agree with her that although
ought to show our sympathy in a more practical way. we are told that some people have been held responsible,
the masterminds behind that murder have not yet been
Mr Whittingdale: I agree with my right hon. Friend. identified. Nor, I suspect, have the masterminds been
There are many people in this country who feel close identified in another shocking case from just a couple
ties with Australia, despite the geographical distance of years ago, which is the death of Daphne Caruana
that separates us. I hope the Government, as I believe Galizia in Malta, a country in the European Union
they will, will give any help to Australia that is requested. where the ramifications are still being felt. There is still
783 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 784

work to do on media freedom, and I am pleased that that have already been given, particularly from the
that was highlighted in the Queen’s Speech and that my Front Bench, but also from everyone else. [Interruption.]
right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary gives it such I am digging a hole, so I am going to stop. We have been
priority. very disciplined so far; I am sure we will continue to be
I wish quickly to mention one other issue. As I think disciplined.
you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I also chair the
all-party group on Ukraine. I was delighted to meet the 5.19 pm
Ukrainian ambassador earlier today, and I am grateful
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): Thank you, Madam
to colleagues from all parties who came and signed the
Deputy Speaker. I assure you that I always try to make
book of condolence for the families of those who died
my words as meaningful and as brief as possible. I am
in the plane crash. It is now nearly four years since
also coming from the European Union Parliament where
Russia illegally occupied part of the sovereign state of
a nine to 10-minute speech is, as my good friend the
Ukraine—Crimea—and since the fighting broke out in
hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Khan)
the east of Ukraine. It is plain that those actions by
knows, an acre of expanse, but I will certainly keep my
Russia were in breach of all international law. We have
words brief today.
taken sanctions, but they have proved ineffectual so far:
the Russians are still in occupation in Crimea and the I have listened carefully to the contributions thus far,
fighting in Donbass continues. Just last week, another and, as we approach Burns season, what strikes me is
three Ukrainians died in that fighting. what our national poet said:
We have a responsibility: first, because we were one “O wad some po’er the giftie gie us
of the original signatories of the Budapest memorandum, To see oursels as ithers see us.”
which guaranteed the sovereign integrity of Ukraine in I look forward to the note from Hansard asking me to
return for Ukraine’s giving up its nuclear arsenal; and explain that. Global Britain is not just how Britain
secondly, because a European country has been invaded. wants to be perceived; it is how the rest of the world
I hope we will continue to support President Zelensky judges Britain by its actions and its deeds. Warm words
in his efforts, but the Gracious Speech also refers to and sympathy are in no short supply in this place, but
sanctions. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Foreign the world is watching, and it is watching Britain right
Secretary that, now that we are leaving the European now very carefully. I believe that we are at a crossroads—I
Union, it gives us an opportunity to impose stronger say “we” quite deliberately, much as we have a different
sanctions without having to reach agreement throughout perspective from these Benches.
the European Union. I am, as I say, new to this place, but I was elected to
Not only would I like to see sanctions against the the European Parliament in 2004. I have served there
people responsible for the invasion of Ukraine and, since, lately on the European Parliament’s Foreign Affairs
indeed, against those Ukrainians who have previously Committee, with a particular emphasis on the middle
stolen money—much of which has not yet been found— east and north Africa. I grew up in Saudi Arabia, so I
from their own country, but we should also take advantage have sand in my blood. I will always have a close interest
of the Magnitsky list, which the House passed yet has in the middle east and what is going on there. That is
so far not been implemented. Media freedom is an a subject on which I look forward to engaging with
excellent example—I commend the report of the Foreign colleagues.
Affairs Committee, which was chaired by my hon. Friend I also bring an unashamedly European style to my
the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat) politics. I believe that we get more done when we focus
—of where there is a real opportunity to add teeth to on where we agree, not on where we differ. I believe that
our words about the importance of media freedom by we get more done when we strive for consensus, even if,
taking out sanctions against those responsible. perhaps, it cannot be found. When he visited the European
I commend the Gracious Speech, particularly for its Parliament, German Federal President Frank-Walter
emphasis on international affairs and the attention that Steinmeier said that the European Union is based on
my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary rightly gave the revolutionary idea that our opponent might have a
to these issues in his contribution. point. That is always my politics. That is always the
attitude that I bring. I do hope that the Foreign Secretary
Several hon. Members rose— has received my email suggesting a coffee. I look forward
to discussing where we do agree, and I look forward to
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order.
working with colleagues across the House on where we
Before I call the SNP spokesman, may I say to colleagues
agree. Where there is alignment of our view on Scotland’s
that I hope we can manage this afternoon’s debate
best interests with global Britain, I will not be shy in
without having a formal time limit? I would particularly
agreeing.
like to do that because several maiden speeches are
about to be made and it is a much better atmosphere for Having said that, it is just possible that we might not
a maiden speech if the clock is not being watched for agree on everything, because we on these Benches are
every second. We will manage to do it if everybody not committed to Britain in the world. We wish it well,
limits their speeches to around about nine to 10 minutes, but it is not our project. We are committed to an
which is quite a long time. I hasten to say that if independent Scotland in Europe. I was not always a
colleagues cannot say it in nine minutes, perhaps they nationalist, but I have concluded that Scotland’s best
should think about whether to say it at all. It can be interests would be best served as an independent state in
done, and if it is, it will show wonderful discipline and the European Union.
show those making their maiden speeches just how the I said in my maiden speech back in December that I
Chamber can work at its best. In mentioning nine regret that Brexit is happening, but I accept that it is
minutes, I make no particular criticism of the speeches happening. I am not about fighting old battles; I am not
785 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 786

[Alyn Smith] an independent DFID—not part of the FCO—and we

want the budget to be focused on climate change. The
about tilting at windmills. However, I do say to colleagues world is moving fast. We need to see a strong effort on
on the Government Benches—Members should trust climate change, because it is a global imperative that we
me when I bring my European experience to bear on very strongly support. The International Development
this—that leaving the European Union is the easy bit. Committee has called for this, and we would welcome
What comes next is a quantum shift in complexity, and, and support moves towards it.
because of the timetable that has been set, urgency. It is We are not going to agree on everything, but, as I have
my view—others may disagree—that Brexit will leave said, where we do agree I will not be shy of agreeing.
global Britain poorer in every sense, weaker in every “Perspective” is not just another way of saying “opinion”;
sense and less secure and less safe in every sense, unless we see the world differently on the SNP Benches. I am a
we work together to get this right. Scottish European. I wish global Britain well; where we
The view from the SNP Benches is that the implications agree, we will agree. But Scotland is a European nation,
of Brexit on foreign affairs and security co-operation and Scotland has not yet been heard on this.
are very far from clear. We have a number of documents
in the conditional tense. They have not been agreed or 5.26 pm
signed off—at least not by the European Parliament.
There is an interest in a close co-operation on the SNP Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): It was
Benches. We would very strongly urge Norway levels of genuinely a pleasure to hear the hon. Member for
co-operation with the EU, particularly on security issues. Stirling (Alyn Smith) express himself in such fluent and
That will keep us safer—that will keep our citizens consensual terms. The fact that he says his party is
safer. It is in all our best interests to work towards that, willing to agree with Government Members does not
and if that is where the Government are heading, I come as a surprise to me, because I know from my
pledge the support of these Benches much as we have experience on the last two iterations of the Defence
our difficulties and differences on other things. Committee, where I had the pleasure of serving alongside
It is also in the interests of democracy within these two Members of the SNP, that that is exactly true. That
islands—we have heard mention of it already—to release is how it was that, on a cross-party basis, all three
the Russia report. The document exists. Grave concerns parties represented on the Committee were able to agree
have been raised about external interference in the UK’s at quite an early stage that defence expenditure is too
democracy. A document exists that has not been published low, and that something in the order of 3% of GDP is a
for dubious reasons. It should be published now so that more realistic target if Britain is to hold her head up in
we can all see where things are. Surely when we are the world with safety.
looking to be a beacon of best practice to the world, Before I develop that theme, however, I want to pick
credibility begins at home. up one point from the excellent speech made by my right
An issue that is close to Scotland’s heart is international hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale),
development. We very warmly support and welcome and that is his reference to the BBC, in which he concentrated
the 0.7% commitment on international aid, but that is on the World Service. In about 2011, when the then
not without caveats. We are concerned about the increasing Sir Ming Campbell and I were both members of the
politicisation of the aid budget. We are very concerned Intelligence and Security Committee, I remember that
about the suggestion that the Department for International we learned with alarm of the coalition Government’s
Development could be wound into the Foreign and plan to stop the ring-fenced funding not only of the
Commonwealth Office. We think that would be an BBC World Service but of the vital BBC Monitoring
entirely retrograde step. We are pleased that it has been Service based at Caversham Park. We expressed the
abandoned for the moment, but this is a continuing trend. view at the time that the result of putting that funding
on the shoulders of the BBC in return for allowing the
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and BBC to have its usual requested rise in the licence fee
Lesmahagow) (SNP): I thank my hon. Friend for giving would come back to bite us—and so it did, because both
way. He is making an excellent speech. On the very those budgets were badly squeezed, and I think I am
point that he is discussing, the staff of DFID, particularly right in saying that in the end the Government felt it
those in my constituency in East Kilbride, contribute so necessary to restore separate funding for the BBC World
much in relation to providing aid worldwide and excellent Service, but sadly not for the BBC Monitoring Service.
programmes. Having been chair of the all-party group
for disability, I particularly consider its excellent work Mr Whittingdale: The position is that the BBC continues
in getting children with disabilities into school. Does to fund the World Service, but it now receives an additional
my hon. Friend agree that such work must be protected? grant from the Foreign Office that has allowed it to
It must be protected to protect the UK’s reputation, but expand its services. I very much hope that the Foreign
also in relation to jobs, the wider economy and the good Office will continue—and perhaps increase—that funding.
that we do internationally.
Dr Lewis: Yes, but the trouble is that no such grant
Alyn Smith: I very warmly agree. My hon. Friend is was made to the BBC Monitoring Service, which is our
of course no stranger to DFID. SNP Members want to principal source of what is called open-source
see that work and independence protected and maintained, intelligence—or, as the BBC prefers to say, open-source
but the trend we have seen is concerning. In 2017, information. The Defence Committee produced a hard-
DFID managed only 72% of official development hitting report entitled “Open Source Stupidity”, because
assistance, down from 88% in 2013. Given the budgets that was entirely our opinion of the effect of that
being spent by other Departments, we think that is a cutback by the coalition Government. It led directly to
retrograde drift that we need to reverse. We want to see the closure of Caversham Park, and although BBC
787 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 788

Monitoring continues to do very good work, it is a Dr Lewis: I do, and in this there is an important
shame and a disgrace that it is not specially separately rebuttal of a point often made by those who think we
funded, as it used to be. can afford to cut out certain capabilities because we are
Coming back to the main topic, this is, as we know, a members of an alliance and we can rely on other allies
debate on Britain’s future place in the world. However to supply capabilities that we ourselves do not have.
magnified, however static or even however reduced our That leaves out of account what happens if, heaven
future place in the world may be, we have to be able to forbid, we are involved in a major conflict and one of
keep our country safe. As I never tire of explaining to our allies is knocked out and no longer able to supply us
the House, the basis of any sensible defence policy with the missing capabilities. So while we cannot do
depends on three concepts: deterrence, containment, everything, we have to be able to do as many things as
and a realisation of the unpredictability of future conflicts. are possible within a reasonable financial envelope. My
The examples I always give—I fear that people will start point about the percentages is that they give us a rough
joining in in a chorus if I do it again, but I do so idea of what is reasonable at any given time in a country’s
nevertheless—are the Yom Kippur war in 1973 that circumstances.
took hyper-sensitive Israel by surprise, the Falklands The spectrum of threats ranges from, at the most
war in 1982 that took us by surprise, the invasion of extreme end, nuclear obliteration, through conventional
Kuwait in 1990 that took everybody by surprise, and defeat and subjugation, to what is generally regarded in
the 9/11 attacks in 2001 that took the world’s then only the terminology as 21st-century threats—terrorism,
superpower by surprise. subversion, infiltration, disinformation, cyber and space.
What do I conclude from the fact that most wars in In the short time remaining, I want to focus on the
the 20th century—I could give many more older examples point about which I had an exchange with the Foreign
—were usually not predicted significantly in advance? I Secretary during his speech, and that is the question of
conclude that if we are going to have an adequate the defence review.
defence policy, we have to be able to defend flexibly My concern goes back to 2017, when, as I referred to
against a whole spectrum of future potential threats in my intervention, we had something called the national
because we do not know which of those threats is going security capability review. That was meant to look at
to materialise. defence and security altogether, but it was also meant to
be fiscally neutral, which meant that if we decided that
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): My we wanted to spend more on dealing with so-called
right hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and 21st-century threats—I am pleased to see the hon.
excellent points. I want to draw him back to his comments Member for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald)
about spending at least 3%. I do not believe that it is nodding in recollection of and, I hope, agreement with
about 3%; it is about having the capability we need. The my analysis—such as subversion or disinformation or
key word he has used is “flexibility”, and that does not especially cyber, we had to start cutting core conventional
have a percentage price on it; it has an equipment and capabilities.
capability price.
I draw the House’s attention, not for the first time,
Dr Lewis: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. to a very revealing article in The Guardian, no less, on
However, I have found through long experience that 26 June 2018, in which it was reported that there had
although it is a rather crude shorthand, this business of been an “increasingly bitter stand-off ” between the
percentages is the one straightforward, simple and clear Treasury and the Ministry of Defence. It read:
way of showing to the country what has been happening “The row has its origins in July last year, when the Cabinet
in relative terms, compared with other high spending Office announced the national security adviser, Sir Mark Sedwill,
Departments, to defence expenditure. would conduct a review of the threats facing the UK and the
capabilities needed to meet them. His brief was to look at the UK
security needs in the round, taking in the intelligence agencies as
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: May I urge the right well as the MoD. He was also to evaluate the risks posed by
hon. Gentleman not to oversimplify what is actually terrorists and cyber-attacks as well as from conventional forces.”
complex, and rightly so? Should not the debate be led
by capability over the simplicity of saying that we meet That sounds rather similar to what we heard today. The
a certain target? We do an assessment of where the article continues:
threat picture is at, we determine what capability is “By the autumn, it was clear the intelligence agencies had come
required to meet that threat assessment, and we spend out on top and the MoD was looking at being forced to make cuts,
the money accordingly. Targets, while simple and easy with options ranging from reducing the size of the army from
to understand, do not paint the whole picture. 77,000 to 70,000, cutting 1,000 Royal Marines and decommissioning
two specialist amphibious-landing ships, HMS Bulwark and
HMS Albion.
Dr Lewis: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. He
came in as if on cue, because I was just about to paint There was a consensus among mandarins involved in the
negotiations the UK was less likely to need two specialist amphibious
what I regard as the spectrum of threats that are necessary landing ships than the ability to defend against a cyber-attack on
to give us the flexibility that we need to have if we are its infrastructure or financial networks.
going to prepare an adequate defence policy.
But there was a backlash from an informal coalition led by
Williamson,”—
John Redwood: Does my right hon. Friend agree as
well that in order to have flexibility, it is very important my right hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire
that we have the key military technologies under our (Gavin Williamson)—
own control, and the industrial capability of flexing up “appointed in November, and the chairman of the defence select
and greatly increasing our output of weaponry should committee… as well as a score or more Conservative MPs (and
disaster hit and we need to respond? Labour ones with defence jobs in their constituencies)...
789 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 790

[Dr Julian Lewis] slave Frederick Douglass to Newcastle, and residents of

what is now Newcastle Central paid for his freedom.
One of the arguments from Tory backbenchers was the military Traidcraft, which supports economic development across
were disproportionately represented”— the world through trade, was founded in Newcastle.
they mean under-represented— Hadrian’s wall, which runs through my constituency,
“in negotiations dominated by politicians with no military background was the boundary of the Roman world. Today, Geordies
and by the intelligence agencies. are to be found all over the world, while visitors to
The counter-arguments were little aired in the media: that the Newcastle celebrate its beautiful streets, vibrant nightlife
UK should abandon its adherence to tradition and instead build and warm welcome from the people who live there. And
a modern force, a pared-down one, with lower spending levels we trade with the world. The north-east is the region
closer to comparable Europeans neighbours. Compared with the that exports more than it imports—the only region in
UK’s 2.1% of GDP spent on defence, France spends 1.79%, the country to do so—and 60% of that goes to Europe,
Germany 1.2%... Italy 1.1% and Spain 0.9%.”
supporting many jobs.
The cat was out of the bag—the establishment and the Before and during the election, I spoke to business
Treasury wanted us to reduce our spending on what is leaders and owners, many of them Conservative voting,
conventionally understood as defence in favour of new who were absolutely appalled at what they saw a Conservative
capabilities. I entirely agree that we need to spend more Government doing to the business environment, particularly
on new capabilities, but why does that mean that we in the north-east. My job and that of MPs across the
have to spend less on conventional capabilities when, as region is to improve our constituencies’prosperity, enabling
I set out at the beginning, we have no idea what the high-wage, high-skill jobs in the region. We have advanced
nature of a future conflict will be? As the threats are manufacturing integrated supply chains that criss-cross
augmented and the dangers multiply, we should be the channel backwards and forwards multiple times,
spending more, not less. and we want more such supply chains as part of a green
I return to that rough yardstick of the percentage industrial revolution that will build a net zero economy
terms. The Defence Committee spent a lot of time by investing in green technologies and manufacturing.
trying to work out what really had happened to defence, And we can do it. We have the workforce in the
because, as we know, the criteria were changed for north-east. We have 51,000 tech, engineering, maths and
calculating our GDP percentage expenditure on defence. science students coming out of our universities every
We were able to establish objectively that year, and we have great strengths in science, digital,
“calculated on a historically consistent basis”, energy, healthcare and business. But we need frictionless
in the last four years for which figures are available, borders with our closest partners and agreed standards
although officially we spent 2.2%, 2.1%, 2.1% and 2.1%, that define everything from the acceptable frequency of
in reality—on the basis on which it used to be calculated electromagnetic radiation to the atomic composition of
—we spent 1.9%, 1.8%, 1.8% and, again, 1.8%. a given chemical. Our relationship with the European
I conclude by saying that it used to be the case that in Union is as much a matter of geography as it is of politics.
the 1980s we spent roughly the same on defence, on The Prime Minister’s bad deal and the Conservatives’
education and on health. We now spend two and a half recklessness over Brexit have already cost the region
times on education and four times on health what we jobs, and I look forward to the new north-eastern Tory
spend on defence. No one is asking to go back to the MPs joining me in ensuring that north-east manufacturing
levels of expenditure, comparatively speaking, of the continues and in stopping the Prime Minister as he
1980s, but even in the mid-1990s we felt ourselves able breaks his promises on trade, standards, workers and
to invest 3% of GDP on keeping ourselves safe, not the environmental rights. We can perhaps start this by
4% to 5% that we spent in the 1980s. That is a worthwhile seeing the letter of reassurances given to Nissan over
target, an acceptable target and a target to which the Brexit and asking whether the current deal meets them.
Government need to aspire. Even before the prospect of Brexit, the UK was the
most regionally divided country in Europe, and that is
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I call one aspect of our position in the world that needs to
Chi Onwurah. change. A recent report from Sheffield Hallam University
found that the Government’s industrial strategy is going
5.41 pm
to widen the divisions in our country, not bridge them.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): The industrial strategy’s narrow sectoral focus targets
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a real pleasure only 10% of our manufacturing base and only 1% of
to speak in this, my first debate of the new decade, with the whole economy. We need to see an industrial strategy
you in the Chair and on such an important subject—Britain from the Government that builds our regional economies,
in the world. At a time when global politics seems to and one small step would be if the Government were to
offer us so much to fear and as we leave the European commit now to delivering the funding for the Metro’s
Union, I was truly disappointed that the Queen’s Speech new trains, as our dilapidated and inadequate public
did not recognise the opportunities and challenges for transport system is a barrier to the regional economic
my constituency and, indeed, for my region, as well as integration that we need to match our supply chain
for the country, particularly given that the deal under integration. We also need to secure a strategic British
which we are leaving the European Union is one of the engineering capability through investment in skills and
worst possible. lifelong learning.
Newcastle Central has a proud history of working As the Government turn away from Europe, they
with, trading with, acting in solidarity with and welcoming turn to the US. We have great cultural and economic
people from the world. We are not, as some would like links with the United States, and it is a country that I
to believe, an inward-looking region. In the 19th century, love and love to visit, but I do not think I am the only
we welcomed the American abolitionist and escaped one who is concerned that we should become more
791 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 792

dependent on a US President who I think can accurately Department for International Development spends will
be described as, at the very least, volatile, and that raises all ensure that we have influence in the world. We can
concerns about our position in the world. We do not stand up for human rights in countries such as Saudi
want, for example, to be following the United States on Arabia, Russia, Iran, Burma as well as in Kashmir and
precarious working conditions, exorbitant health costs Palestine and many other countries and places, and we
or chlorinated chicken, but those would clearly be on must do so. We should be under no illusion that democracy
the table in any deal. Many of my constituents enjoy the is embattled. Populism, xenophobia and electoral
beautiful countryside that surrounds Newcastle in interference are both driving and a consequence of the
Northumbria and County Durham, and that depends challenges democracy faces. Cosying up to regimes such
on the wellbeing of small-scale farmers, who could not as the Hungarian Orbán and not standing up to President
stand up against the opening up of competition from Trump does not put us on the right side of history when
the American agri-industrial machine; I was disappointed, it comes to our position in the world. I want to see a
again, that the Queen’s Speech did not include any stronger United Kingdom: strong on principles, with
protection for them. regionally successful economies, making its way on the
I also want to say a few words as chair of the global stage.
all-party group on Africa. That group exists to support
Several hon. Members rose—
mutually beneficial relationships between the UK and
Africa, and also to be a voice for the African diaspora Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Let
in this country. If we are to have a win-win relationship us try a little bit harder on the nine to 10 minutes. The
with African countries, we need to ensure that any trade hon. Lady was not too bad, but I put out this plea to
agreements made post Brexit between the UK and people who have made many speeches in this place and
Africa respect and strengthen African interests as well will make many more: it is not fair to those making
as our own, and in particular the desire and ability of their maiden speeches today if I have to put on a time
African countries to industrialise sustainably. So I welcome limit to get everyone in. That should not be necessary.
the UK-Africa summit that the Government are holding Nine to 10 minutes is ages.
on Monday next week. The all-party group on Africa is
holding a parliamentary symposium the day after, on 5.53 pm
future UK-Africa trade after Brexit, with the president Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I
of the African Development Bank giving a keynote remember that my maiden speech was rather quicker—
address. The interest in this event is testament to the about four minutes—so I am glad you have given us a
importance of our economic relationships with Africa little bit longer, Madam Deputy Speaker.
and the opportunities that are included there. However,
the UK cannot take advantage of those opportunities, I would like to start with some condolences. Not only
or indeed be an outward-looking nation that is open for do the people of Ukraine and Iran deserve our condolences,
business, without improving the system that allows but the people of Oman. Sultan Qaboos was a great
access to people. Our inquiry of July 2019 found that friend of the UK. His partnership with our country has
African visitors to the UK are twice as likely to be enabled a peace process in the region to go on for years,
refused a visa than applicants from any other part of very quietly and very sensitively. He has been an enormous
the world, which means that many African companies friend. I look forward to our Government working with
working in Africa are deciding to take their businesses Sultan Haitham in the years to come.
elsewhere. The past two years in Parliament have, for me, been
shaped by chairing the Foreign Affairs Committee. It
Catherine West: Does my hon. Friend agree that, in was a huge pleasure to have had that chance. We published
the area of science, it is terrible the way that the Home some 23 reports and 24 special reports. We had amazing
Office refuses visas all the time and sets back science help from the most fantastic Clerks in Parliament. I
and the progress we can make between Africa and UK would like, if I may, to name three Clerks of the
science? Committee—Chris Stanton, Tom Goldsmith and Chris
Shaw—and thank them for their amazing work. I would
Chi Onwurah: I thank my hon. Friend for making also like to pay tribute to the former Member for Fife,
that intervention, because it is absolutely true that Stephen Gethins, who was a very dear friend of ours,
scientific links, as well as being part of the UK’s soft and to Ann Clwyd, who sat with us and was absolutely
power, are in the interests of ensuring that we have inspirational in many different moments.
sustainable industrialisation in Africa. To see so many The overarching area that we covered was not the
African scientists refused visas to come here really goes academic exercise of foreign ideas; it was how we best
against the interests of both the UK and the continent promote the interests of the British people. How do we
of Africa. What is absolutely clear is that UK Visas and ensure the prosperity and happiness of these islands?
Immigration’s treatment of Africans is entirely at odds What should we aim for? Who should we work with and
with the narrative of a global Britain post Brexit. Actions how? We looked for solutions to the problems we face
will weigh more than words. We cannot claim to be an and sat patiently through hours of testimony, listening
open and global Britain if we continue to exclude so carefully to witnesses to find ideas that would help us to
many people with a genuine need and desire to come to change the world for the better for all of us. I hope that
this country. as a Committee we served this House and our country
Britain’s position in the world has been negatively well.
impacted by the Brexit saga and shambles, but I believe Many ideas came out of our inquiries and some, I am
we can and will recover. We are still looked to as one of glad to say, have been adopted. Others are enduring and
the great democracies of the world. Our scientific influence, could still be adopted, should the Minister wish to do
the advantage of our language and the budget the so. The top five areas of work for me were defending
793 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 794

[Tom Tugendhat] we have been lacking for too long. Last month, the
Government won the ability to deliver, and for the first
democracy against autocracies such as China and Russia; time in almost a decade, we have a British Government
building bridges with partners such as India and Japan; that can decide a policy, shape it and make it happen.
growing businesses in new markets such as South America; That will change the calculations of others, and while
our own organisation and the skills we need in our own our partners may struggle, our Prime Minister is for the
Department to succeed; and, of course, starting afresh moment unchallenged at home. That gives confidence
in Europe. We addressed the dangers to democracy in to friends and focuses the minds of enemies. The word
many reports, but none more so than our two reports of No. 10, the Foreign Secretary and the Defence
entitled “Moscow’s Gold”, about the price of Russian Secretary is now real and deliverable and can be relied
money, and “A Cautious Embrace”, about the way in on, so now is the moment to build new partnerships.
which some autocracies prey on our educational and I was privileged as Chair of the Foreign Affairs
cultural institutions. We argued each time that the Committee to welcome delegations from around the
Government must stand up for the values that make us world, and one thing that struck me was, as the hon.
stronger. Member for Stirling put it, how we are seen ourselves—
Those values define others, too. I am very glad that [Interruption.] Forgive me for waking him from his
the Prime Minister is keen on bridge building, because reverie. When I met groups from South Korea, Japan,
there is a bridge that we would like him to build on: the Colombia and many others, I heard from them that we
living bridge that Prime Minister Modi speaks about—that are a partner that they seek to join. That is important,
link between peoples and between diasporas. The Home because they see not just our departure from the European
Secretary, who was an important contributor to that Union, but our co-operation in networks such as the
report, now has the power to put in place some of the UN, NATO and the Commonwealth, which my hon.
recommendations she herself wrote: on simplifying the Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell)
visa system; on making it easier for students, businesses champions so frequently, and many more besides—many
and skilled workers to come to the UK from countries of them born out of the imagination of British diplomats
such as India; and on using technology to make things over many years.
faster and cheaper. We must also look at new friends.
Our report on South America did just that, calling for Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I am proud to
the trade commissioner’s team to be boosted and looking serve under my hon. Friend’s chairmanship of the Foreign
at how our great companies, such as JCB and Diageo, Affairs Committee, on which I have served for the last
were already embedded in the continent and how much 10 years. He would not want to end his remarks without
further we could go. When we look at the law, we see a referring to our reports on the British overseas territories
platform that is being built on in those countries and and our success in persuading the Foreign Office at last
could be built on elsewhere. to allow territories and dependencies the right to lay a
Closer to home, our new relationship with the European wreath on Remembrance Sunday to remember those
Union, and separately with the 27 sovereign nations from the overseas territories and Crown dependencies
that make it up, will be built on co-operation and who fought and died. It has taken years for that to
friendship. I hear what the hon. Member for Stirling happen and, because of our report, it has finally occurred.
(Alyn Smith) says, but we must hope for the continuation
of that good will and co-operation. I know that we are Tom Tugendhat: I would love to claim credit for that,
asking a lot of our partners. We are asking them to but the truth is that it is my hon. Friend’s work. He has
change when they did not choose to, but the truth is championed that over a decade and has made a difference
change is coming to Europe anyway. We know that not just to the high commissioners, ambassadors and
there are changes within the European Union and premiers who come to London, but to the hundreds of
between European states already. The world has changed, veterans and thousands of their families who are watching
so it is hardly surprising that we must look to change from around the world, seeing this home of remembrance
with it. every year.
The transformation that Britain is about to undergo The British Government should recognise that we
internationally will define much of the work of this have two pretty simple aims that we can, and should, go
Government. Despite that, the Committee found, sadly, for: the happiness and the prosperity of the British
that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office was too people—no more than that. That is the strategic goal of
often unable to bring policy together. Sadly, it is not any British Administration, and the question now is
even paying diplomats as much as other civil servants. If how we should deliver that. I think that we can build on
we are to deliver a global Britain, we need a clear three areas. We want an open world where the rule of
direction and high morale to attract those who will law, freedom of navigation and freedom of trade, alongside
shape our place in the world. That means a clear focus the protection of our climate and human rights, work
on the task ahead. We have an opportunity and a together by defending international treaties, by creating
Government ready to set a course for ourselves and, I common practice and sometimes by independent action.
hope, for the world, with the kind of foreign policy that This is what shaped our past, and although we should
will be exciting and ambitious, and which I believe can not try to go back there, we should certainly learn
be done. from it.
Why am I so confident? The mandarin who was Fractures with Europe over history have seen us sail
quoted in The Sunday Times last week, saying that this to the East and West Indies developing trading networks
Administration do not care about foreign policy, is in ways that we would never replicate today, but that
clearly wrong. The handling of the Iran crisis, leaving reminds of us a wider world. Today, partnering with
pressure to mount on the dictators in Tehran and not new independent trading nations as equals, we have a
giving them an easy escape, has shown a deftness that new opportunity: to bring the new Indies together.
795 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 796

Over the past 70 years, we have heard one mantra This will not work as long as the rules are regularly
constantly: alignment—alignment with everyone, alignment flouted. That is why China’s adherence to the rule of
around the world. Whether it is with the European law is of great concern. State-owned and state-subsidised
Union or others, it has seemed that the only way to get business such as Huawei not only use data from police
ahead is to replicate, and we must look to change that. states where human rights are regularly violated—such
More than ever, we need a world that dares to experiment as Xinjiang—but seek a market dominance that we
and innovate, to get the best ideas and solutions for the should resist. Urging South Korea’s Samsung and Japan’s
challenges that we face. That requires an independence Fujitsu to bid in the 5G world would make more sense
of mind. Not being part of the three great continental than deepening our dependence on the Chinese Communist
trading blocs—China, the European Union and the party. This is a 70th birthday gift that it does not need.
United States—this new group could focus on recognition, Closer to home, Russia’s rhetoric and aggression are a
rather than alignment, and new ways of working together: reminder that we need to remain vigilant, and our
a less rigid partnership, more Commonwealth, perhaps, nuclear fleet remains an essential part of our defence.
than common purpose. That may be the better starting It is to this world that the Government’s new foreign
point. Many of my friends may be surprised to hear me and defence review should respond, and it needs to be
say this, because I remain a passionate European— ambitious.
I would have to be with a wife who is French, and I We want a world of opportunity and investment,
remain still afeard of her. However, as my hon. Friend where we can not only stretch our wings but partner
the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) put it, Britain with others. That will sometimes mean the United States,
is and will remain in Europe, but of course, Europe is it will sometimes mean Europe, and it will sometimes
not Brussels. mean others around the world, but as global Britain, we
Europe is 450 million people. Its cultures are as need global partners. As we chart a new course for our
diverse as the people in northern Finland and southern country, I am glad that we are looking forward. Too
Italy. It is what has given us and the world amazing art much of the past four years has been spent looking
and culture, science and innovation. That came not backwards and fighting battles that have been settled. I
from common alignment, but from competition and am glad that we have a Prime Minister who has set out
experimentation that led to the natural selection of an ambitious agenda, because that ambition matters.
ideas. Europe’s fractured land mass allowed ideas to I am grateful that you have given me the time to explore
take root and allowed experiments to find different these ideas, Madam Deputy Speaker.
solutions to the problems we face. Co-operation, not
unanimity, should be what we aim for, and not just with Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): It is a
Europe. The new Indies—the new partnerships—will be great pleasure to call Daisy Cooper to make her maiden
a way to build that. speech.

Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ 6.7 pm

Co-op): The hon. Gentleman has spoken passionately Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): It is a great honour
about many parts of the world. In terms of the horn of to make my maiden speech following many other
Africa in particular, he knows that I am a long-term accomplished and passionate speakers. My constituency
supporter of the cause of Somaliland, a place where not of St Albans is very proud of its contribution both to
only do we have trading potential and great historical Britain’s history and to Britain’s place in the world.
and cultural links with what was a British protectorate, Alban himself is the first recorded Christian martyr
but the Department for International Development plays and Britain’s first saint. He was executed for giving
a key role. Does he agree that such regions and countries shelter to a stranger fleeing persecution, and his grave is
are places where we could bring all parts of British foreign a site of pilgrimage to this day. Then there is Magna
policy together? Carta, the great charter of liberties, which has shaped
democracies around the world. The very first meetings
Tom Tugendhat: My hon. Friend—I say that because that led to the drafting of that charter were held in
he is a friend—is absolutely right: it is about the way St Albans Abbey. Today, the abbey is surrounded by
that we partner with countries around the world, including pubs—lots and lots of pubs. St Albans has more pubs
Somaliland, bringing together not just foreign or aid per square mile than any other place in Great Britain
efforts, but sometimes justice, the rule of law, policing and they are steeped in our nation’s history, too.
and maybe even defence to make sure that we have a
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: Let’s all head to St Albans.
co-operative and integrated approach to delivering real
change to such countries. That is exactly where we should Daisy Cooper: You are very welcome. The war of the
be going. roses started on the doorstep of The Boot, and Oliver
Forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker; I will wrap up Cromwell stayed the night at the inn now known as
very quickly. Our role should be to build on the insurance Ye Olde Fighting Cocks. These two pubs and many
model that we had, and to remember that we can more in St Albans and around the country are under
underwrite many of the ways that the world has traded threat like never before. They have suffered a crippling
in looking at the norms that we set out. Just as we sailed rise in business rates, and the measures announced in
the seas, we must sail the new accountancy, looking at this Queen’s Speech to help small retail businesses will
ways to create entities that share the responsibility that not benefit those pubs whose business rates are calculated
we expect of companies with aspiration and innovation. differently and which have a higher rateable value. In
We need a revolution in thinking, and we need to St Albans and around the UK, there are pockets of
experiment with regulations that promote growth and pubs that have had rate increases of between 100% and
opportunity. 2,000%. They need urgent help if they are to survive the
797 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 798

[Daisy Cooper] the NHS and schools, are chronically underfunded and
alarm at the rapid increase in crime from county lines.
next few months, let alone the centuries to come. It The St Albans-to-London commute should be easy but
would be a cruel end indeed if these pubs, which have is often an unreliable, uncomfortable and increasingly
withstood the English civil wars, were finished off by a unaffordable ride.
broken, outdated and unfair system of tax. To conclude, St Albans has a lot of history to draw
To keep our pubs going, the Save St Albans Pubs upon, but our outlook is to the future. Over the centuries,
campaign has mapped out many pub crawls. These our magnificent history has continued to inspire. From
crawls will take you through the 100-acre Verulamium martyrdom to Magna Carta and the uprising of Iceni’s
park, with its Roman walls and ruins, and to the abbey, Boudicca, St Albans has a timeless tradition of being at
home to medieval art hidden for 500 years, until now. the heart of our country’s fights for greater democracy,
Visitors and locals alike can walk through the Sopwell liberties and freedoms. We believe in St Albans that
ruins. More alarmingly these days, we can also walk Britain should be open and internationalist. We believe
along the often dried-up riverbed of the River Ver, one we should work with our closest international neighbours
of the most precious chalk streams in the world. Indeed, to tackle the global climate crisis. We believe in our
my predecessor, Anne Main, warned in her maiden responsibility to take in those fleeing persecution and
speech in 2005 that the River Ver was in danger of war, as Alban himself did and as St Albans has continued
drying up, and yet here we are. I would like to say, to do, taking in children and families from 1940s London
despite our many political differences, that Anne contributed to 21st-century Syria. I am honoured to represent my
14 years of public service to St Albans and to Parliament. fellow residents of St Albans here in Parliament and
I would like to pay a sincere tribute to her for that. fully intend to honour our traditions and values during
the months and years ahead.
St Albans is not just a place of history; it is a place of
international innovation. St Albans is in Hertfordshire,
the county of opportunity. Around the city, we have a 6.16 pm
number of beautiful villages. Bricket Wood is home to Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con): I am
the world’s leading building-science centre, the British delighted to see you in your place, Madam Deputy
Research Establishment, and dotted in and around are Speaker, and I congratulate the hon. Member for St Albans
many other villages that are home to tech and research (Daisy Cooper) on her excellent maiden speech. She has
businesses. These cutting-edge British-based businesses certainly made an early impact and I know will contribute
are harnessing technology and knowledge to produce much to this place, particularly for her constituents.
new products, new jobs and new solutions. Technology It is really good to be back here after two years’
offers great potential to tackle many of our modern absence, and I am grateful for the trust that the people
global challenges, and modern technology, science and of Meon Valley have placed in me. I will do all I can to
research are international. British business requires the work for them. I also thank the House of Commons
easy movement of people and skills across borders. This staff for their warm welcome back. I have always been
country has benefited from its EU membership, and grateful for their support and look forward to working
our research and development sector is just one example with them over the next few years. During those two
of that. My fellow residents in St Albans do not wish to years, I was fortunate to work for several organisations.
lose the benefits of such close collaboration and alliances. I had a brief period as the Deputy Police and Crime
Close international collaboration and alliance between Commissioner in Hampshire and the Isle of Wight and
Britain and our international cousins is essential if we spent time learning about the Hampshire constabulary,
are to tackle the biggest threat of all: the climate crisis. how hard they work and how remarkable that is given
My fellow constituents in St Albans want tough action they are the lowest-funded force relative to population.
to avert climate disaster, including a complete moratorium I will use my time here to support the police and public
on airport expansion, including at nearby Luton airport. sector workers throughout the constituency.
We want to protect our local natural environment. In During the past two years, I have also worked with
St Albans, a significant chunk of our green belt is at veterans as chair of the south-east Veterans Advisory
risk from the monstrosity of a rail and lorry freight and Pensions Committee, and I am very pleased now
terminal. Our chalk streams, including the River Ver in that we have an Office for Veterans’ Affairs, as veterans
St Albans, are now in crisis, from both over-extraction have particular needs that we here should support. My
and the changing climate. Some 85% of the world’s other public appointment is with the National Citizen
chalk streams are located in England, and most of Service. I have seen the impact of the NCS in Portsmouth
those are in Hertfordshire. They are known as England’s and further afield and was pleased to be part of the
Amazon for a reason. These precious ecosystems are a board and the new royal charter. The NCS is open to
unique global asset. Even without further harm, it will 16-year-olds, and the premise on which it was started by
take decades for them to recover. David Cameron when he was Prime Minister—to bring
As hon. Members can see, St Albans is blessed with a communities together and instil confidence in the
rich cultural history, cutting-edge businesses, wonderful volunteering culture—has impacted on more than half
pubs—did I mention the pubs?—and beautiful green a million young people. It has been transformational.
belt. You can see why St Albans is often described as a I want to say a few words about my predecessor,
wealthy, leafy, commuter town 20 miles north of London, Sir George Hollingbery. I have known George for more
but, like many places across the UK, we only have to than 20 years, ever since we were both councillors on
scratch the surface to see that some people in St Albans Winchester City Council. George was elected three
are really, really struggling. There is a rising use of food years after me and I was appointed as his mentor. Those
banks and a growing presence of homelessness. There is who know George will know that this meant I had very
palpable frustration at how public services, including little to do. My most memorable experience of campaigning
799 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 800

for George in 2005 was the drive to tackle drunkenness my maiden speech previously, we openly praise the
by roving the streets of Winchester late on Friday night work of the armed forces—quite rightly—but not so
handing out Mars bars to those in need—apparently much those who keep us safe without recognition. I pay
they reduce the effect of alcohol. George was a fantastic particular tribute to everyone who works in the intelligence
MP for Meon Valley and I hope to fill his shoes. In services and especially those, such as my father, in the
Parliament, he was a well-liked PPS, Whip and Trade Secret Intelligence Service, which is sometimes referred
Minister. In particular, I would like to mention his time to as MI6. These people put themselves often in the very
with my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead gravest danger to promote and defend British interests
(Mrs May) when she was Home Secretary and then and extend British values. They do it without thought
Prime Minister. I know that she found him a close and of credit or personal gain. That is hugely inspirational,
supportive friend during her time in office, and likewise and I intend to support any measures that give them the
I know how proud he is of the role he played in her resources that they need to continue that work.
Administration. As some Members know, I was born in Aden in
Meon Valley has felt like home to me since my Yemen, which is something that I now have in common
parents moved there 33 years ago, following a life with only one other Member, the shadow Leader of the
moving around the world with the Army and intelligence House, the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie
services. After many years of travelling, it was the first Vaz). I pay tribute to her brother, Keith Vaz, the former
place I really felt we had settled down, and my home Member for Leicester East, who chaired the all-party
has been close by in Winchester and Portsmouth ever parliamentary group on Yemen for many years. We
since. I was lucky that my parents were able to take on both spoke frequently in debates in this Chamber about
childcare duties while I pursued my career as an Ofsted the forgotten war in Yemen, where civilians are suffering
inspector and city councillor. Meon Valley is a largely not just as a result of direct violence, but through
rural seat, with the wonderful countryside of the South famine and malnutrition, including thousands of children.
Downs national park spanning much of it, and dotted I am concerned that, with our eyes often turned in
with picturesque villages and market towns. I feel very horror to the cowardly and profane actions of Daesh in
lucky to have been elected to a seat with some of the Iraq and Syria, and with tensions with Iran once more
best pubs in the country—not St Albans, but Meon rising, we have not given the crisis in Yemen the attention
Valley—which I visit frequently. Members have an open that it so desperately needs. I will continue to bang
invitation if they would like to accompany me to the the drum on behalf of its people and ask the British
many small breweries or the vineyards, which make Government to continue to lead in peace discussions to
some of the finest sparkling wine in the country. bring about the peace and stability that Yemen needs.
Much of the population is in the south-east corner of As part of those efforts, I am helping to re-establish the
the constituency, in Waterlooville, Cowplain, Hart Plain all-party parliamentary group on Yemen. I hope that
and Horndean, just north of Portsmouth. There are Members listening will consider joining.
close links with the armed forces, especially the Royal I am pleased to co-chair the all-party parliamentary
Navy. Waterlooville is reportedly named after a pub group on women, peace and security, alongside Baroness
called The Heroes of Waterloo, because on its opening Hodgson, as it is often women who bear the brunt of
day, in 1815, it was thronged with soldiers returning war and atrocities. We will be working to highlight that
from victory against Napoleon. in conferences this year.
The constituency also played a big part in D-day. I have also lived in many Commonwealth countries,
Churchill used an armoured train parked in the sidings such as Nigeria, Pakistan, India and Australia, as well
of Droxford station as the base for preparations for the as the United Arab Emirates and the USA. As we leave
Normandy landings. He used it to meet with numerous the EU on the 31st of this month, we will have an
Ministers, military commanders and leaders of allied exciting opportunity to strengthen our relationships
nations. On 4 June 1944, he met Charles de Gaulle there with those countries and the rest of the world. I look
and informed him of the invasion plans, quite late in the forward to supporting the Government as we strengthen
day. Southwick House provided the supreme headquarters our own trade deals and other links. We must not,
of the expeditionary force for D-day and is still there for however, lose sight of the fact that Europe remains our
everyone to see. neighbour and friend. I hope that we can remain a
leading and supportive nation among our European
Meon Valley is also home to the cradle of cricket. In allies, even as we extend our horizons further afield. I
1750, Hambledon cricket club was founded and took look forward to working with the Government on foreign
on responsibility for developing the rules of modern-day policy and our one nation domestic agenda and, most
cricket in The Bat and Ball pub during club meetings. It importantly, to working hard for my constituents in
is a game of patience and skill, which brings me to the Meon Valley.
topic of this debate, foreign policy and aid. I mentioned
that I moved around the world as part of a military and 6.24 pm
Foreign Office family. I have seen at first hand the Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD):
impact that Britain has had on various parts of the It is an enormous pleasure to follow the hon. Member
world and where our values and aid have helped many for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond), who has made her
people. I am a great believer in soft power organisations non-maiden speech, and to welcome her back to the
such as the British Council and the BBC World Service, House. When she was here representing the interests of
alongside our aid budget and sporting links. constituents in Portsmouth South, she had a reputation
My husband and I were living in the New York area for bringing an intelligent and thoughtful analysis to
during 9/11 and heard how people listened to the BBC the debate. It is clear that her time away from the House
World Service for unbiased information. After the Army, has, if anything, served to improve that ability, so she is
my father served in the intelligence services. As I said in very welcome back.
801 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 802

[Mr Alistair Carmichael] we could identify as an ultimate, aspirational goal the

demilitarisation of foreign powers in Iraq. That, if we
I am also particularly pleased to follow my hon. were to achieve it, would represent significant progress.
Friend the Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper), who The objectives that I would identify for the United
made an alarmingly accomplished maiden speech. I Kingdom, however, are a renewed approach to nuclear
suspect that following her in the speaking order is non-proliferation and progress on human rights in Iran,
something that I will just have to get used to. I confess particularly in relation to religious freedom. I have
that I did not know that St Albans was as well provided worked for many years with the small Baha’í community
with licensed premises as we now know it is. I am my in my constituency, and for many years I have been a
hon. Friend’s mentor, and it strikes me that perhaps member of the all-party parliamentary group on the
my duties might extend beyond Westminster and may Baha’í faith. The persecution of the Baha’ís and the use
require me to spend some time mentoring her in her of capital punishment in Iran are a stain on that country’s
constituency. reputation; and, of course, this is a moment when we
The hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom should be renewing our effort to see the return of
Tugendhat) made the important point that in many or, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and other dual nationals.
indeed, most parts of the world, the United Kingdom is When we have identified those objectives, the next
still seen as a force for good on the world stage, as a question we should ask ourselves in this essay is “How
permanent member of the United Nations Security do we achieve them?” I do not think that we can achieve
Council and also because we have a long and distinguished them through some sort of neo-imperial lecture tour. I
history of standing up for the values of democracy and think it would be much more sensible for us to work
human rights. We do not always meet the standards that with our many allies and friends in the region—to work
we might reasonably set ourselves, but, taken as a with our friends in Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, and elsewhere
whole, we are seen in a positive light, and I think that is in the middle east. They, I suggest, would be heard
going to matter more now than ever. much more sympathetically as interlocutors when it
The recent assassination of Soleimani in Iraq has came to advancing those objectives.
definitely raised the temperature in what is an already I was grateful to the Foreign Secretary for his response
febrile region. I do not mourn Soleimani at all. The man to my intervention about the situation in Hong Kong.
was a butcher, make no mistake about that. Others have Those who were in the last Parliament will have heard
said that he doubtless had the blood of British service me speak about the subject many times, and I make
personnel on his hands, and I think that is almost absolutely no apology for that. For several months we
certainly the case. The difficulty is that once we start to have seen running protests, with an escalating level of
use that as the rationale for actions of that sort, where violence in all of them. Just last week the all-party
do we go next and where do we stop? The same accusation parliamentary group on Hong Kong heard remarkable
could ultimately have been made against parliamentarians testimony from Dr Darren Mann of the Hong Kong
in different conflicts in different parts of the world Polytechnic University, who described his experience of
down the years, most recently, possibly, even against arrest as a result of offering medical aid to those who
some of those who have sat in the Northern Ireland had been injured while protesting against the Government.
Assembly. I therefore urge some caution in using that as When your Government are prepared to arrest medics
a justification for the assassination of Soleimani. off the street, you realise that things have taken a serious
The lack of an early response from the Prime Minister turn for the worse.
was, I would suggest, a mistake. It was not a catastrophic
error, but it is one from which we must learn, and it Catherine West: Does the right hon. Member agree
brings into question the ever-changing nature of our that until there is a full inquiry into police brutality, we
special relationship with the United States. I say that it will not really know the answers? Should not we in this
is ever changing because it is clear that different Presidents House, and those in many other Parliaments, press for
of the United States bring different aspects to that the facts about the police brutality in Hong Kong?
relationship. It is important to remember that our special
relationship is with the United States and her people, Mr Carmichael: The hon. Lady and I have worked on
not with any Administration that happens to be in the this issue in the past, so she will not be surprised to hear
White House at any given time. We need to be alive to that I agree with her absolutely. That pressure is what is
the possibility that this is perhaps one of those moments needed. It was shocking enough to hear about the arrest
in that relationship when we have to be more prepared of medics—doctors and nurses—who were offering help
than previously to plough our own furrow in foreign to injured protesters in the streets, but the really shocking
affairs. It is not the first time that we find ourselves in thing that we heard from Dr Mann last week was that
that position. when he took his testimony to the United Nations High
I am a lot more optimistic than I was this time last Commissioner for Human Rights and the International
week. What has happened has brought us to the brink. Committee of the Red Cross, they said, “There is not
We looked into the abyss, we saw what the consequences much that we can do: we have to stay neutral in this
of that sort of conflagration would be and now, when matter.” You cannot stay neutral when you are faced
even the Saudi Arabians are saying that we have to with that sort of brutality, and when the most fundamental
de-escalate tensions, there is a willingness to find a way human rights are at stake.
back from the brink. I would suggest that, from that We have seen China renege on the joint declaration.
situation of confusion and some folly, some opportunities It is surely time for the United Kingdom to respond,
may be found. It is important that we as a country and that response must go beyond the hand-wringing
should clarify what our objectives are now in relation to that we have seen so far. We have witnessed the massive
Iran and, I would add, Iraq. I think it would be good if concern that now exists among the Hong Kongers
803 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 804

about the British National (Overseas) passport scheme. en route to Shrewsbury. May I take this opportunity,
It was always a messy compromise, and it was never during a debate on the Queen’s Speech, to invite Her
going to be anything better than that, but I think we Majesty to visit us in the constituency, at any time, to
have reached a point at which that messy compromise is continue that fine tradition?
simply no longer sustainable. Surely Hong Kongers As an English literature graduate, I am delighted that
with BNO passport status should now be given the right my constituency has such strong literary connections.
of abode. Charles Dickens stayed at the Swan Inn in the High
As I said to the Foreign Secretary, it is shocking that Street, and Stafford has been home to, among others,
the global head of Human Rights Watch, Kenneth the playwright Richard Sheridan and our former Poet
Roth, should have been denied entry to Hong Kong this Laureate Dame Carol Ann Duffy. I was amused to
weekend. That must be proof, if proof were needed, learn that my predecessor’s ancestor, Thomas Lefroy,
that what is going on there is something of which China was the lost love of Jane Austen, on whom she based
is ashamed, and something on which the House should her most famous character, Mr Darcy.
be prepared to shine the light of scrutiny, because Stafford is also fiercely proud of our strong connections
scrutiny and accountability are what will bring the with the armed forces. During world war two Stafford
change that is needed there. hosted multiple bases, including RAF Hixon, which
was used to train bomber command units, and flew
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It dangerous night-time raids over Europe to keep us safe
is a great pleasure to ask Theo Clarke to make her and retain the freedoms that we enjoy today. We have
maiden speech. one of the largest military bases in the country, with
both the Army and the RAF Tactical Supply Wing
6.35 pm based in my constituency. I am pleased that the Government
have honoured their commitment to NATO by maintaining
Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): Thank you very much, 2% spending on defence and have retained our nuclear
Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a privilege and an honour deterrent, and that we will continue to support and
to have been elected as the Member of Parliament for strengthen the armed forces covenant. Veterans have
Stafford. risked their lives for our country, so I will always be on
As this is my maiden speech, I will start by paying the side of our servicemen and women and their families.
tribute to my predecessor, Jeremy Lefroy, who was an I am also pleased that this Conservative Government
excellent constituency MP. He was a tireless champion are undertaking the largest integrated security, defence
of local issues—including our County Hospital, which and foreign policy review since the end of the cold war.
has been through difficult and tragic times—and he On Remembrance Sunday I was struck by how many
should be commended for fighting hard for local services. members of the public turned up to line the streets of
He was also a tremendous supporter of local businesses, Stafford in support, so I now pay tribute to everyone at
and I want to thank him for his work in tackling youth the Beacon barracks for all they do. I take great pride in
unemployment. representing a constituency with such a strong military
I first met Jeremy nearly 10 years ago, when I volunteered history.
with him on the Conservative party’s international social It is an honour to represent such a beautiful part of
action project in Sierra Leone. During his time in the west midlands, including the county town of
Parliament, he became well known for his expertise in Staffordshire, and Penkridge and the villages of Acton
international affairs. He was a committed member of Trussell, Bednall, Brocton, Hyde Lea, Coppenhall, the
the International Development Committee, and a prominent Haywoods, Hixon, Hopton, Ingestre, Milford, Tixall,
supporter of the UK’s aid budget. He believed, as I do, Wheaton Aston, Bishopswood, Seighford, Derrington
in a modern, compassionate form of Conservatism. We and many more. I hope to reward the faith that residents
believe that the UK should continue to lead in responding have placed in me by working hard over the next Parliament.
to humanitarian disasters and tackling extreme poverty. My constituency voted to leave so, rightly, my first
Having visited Africa with him several times, I have seen priority for the people of Stafford is getting Brexit done.
at first hand his dedication to promoting the Global In my first week, I delivered on this promise by voting
Britain agenda and his commitment to eradicating malaria for the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill. I
and neglected tropical diseases, causes that I will continue thank the constituents who lent me their vote at the last
to champion in the House. election. I will continue to fight for local services, including
I was delighted when Jeremy became the Prime Minister’s our County Hospital. I am committed to standing up
trade envoy to Ethiopia. Given that Africa is home to for our wonderful national health service and in particular
16% of the world’s population and that figure is set to to ensuring that we tackle issues relating to mental
double by 2050, investing in the economic power of health. I will also fight to ensure fairer education funding
these young people will be key to the success of global for our local schools in Staffordshire, and I was delighted
Britain, so I welcome the Government’s upcoming Africa that Stafford College was recently judged outstanding
investment summit. I wish Jeremy well in his future by Ofsted. I welcome the Prime Minister’s leadership
endeavours, in which I am sure that he will continue to internationally to provide all girls with 12 years of
advocate for these important issues. quality education by 2030.
Stafford is rightly proud of our history. During the As we forge a new path outside the EU, it is vital that
Dark Ages it was the centre of the kingdom of Mercia, our farmers are supported and that we do not compromise
and local legend has it that the local town of Penkridge on environmental, food and animal welfare standards
was once the capital of England. The Ancient High in any future trade agreements. We must continue to
House, one of the finest Tudor buildings in the country, conserve our countryside and ensure that rural communities
also welcomed royalty when King Charles I stayed there get the infrastructure they need, from fast broadband to
805 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 806

[Theo Clarke] 6.45 pm

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): It is a pleasure
improved local bus services. I have enjoyed visiting our to follow the hon. Member for Stafford (Theo Clarke). I
county showground, and I look forward to my first think we have already seen and heard enough to know
ploughing match in the constituency, although I will that she will be a credit to her constituents and to her
need to learn to drive a tractor before then. party. I am also pleased that she paid such a kind
Stafford and Penkridge have contributed hugely to tribute to her predecessor. However, I say to her as
the Government’s national agenda to build more houses, someone who does regular surgeries in four or five of
which is to be commended. However, when development my larger villages that if she does a surgery in every one
comes along, we must also ensure that proper infrastructure of the villages she read out, and the ones she did not,
is put in place. I will continue to raise the concerns of she will be extremely busy indeed.
local residents over increased congestion and the provision Before I turn to the debate proper, I want to make an
of local schools and GP surgeries. I am also committed observation about the speech by the hon. and gallant
to working with Staffordshire County Council, Stafford Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat).
Borough Council and South Staffordshire District Council. It was a good speech, but I have two observations. The
These authorities have seen great success in delivering hon. and gallant Gentleman said that we would work
services despite ongoing external pressures, and they with the European Union and the 27 countries, but have
should be congratulated. we not noticed that over the past two or three years the
As a former small business owner, I will always bang European Union has operated as an extremely disciplined
the drum for businesses to invest in the constituency, single bloc? I think that trying to pair one or two countries
support those seeking work and champion our local off would be a fool’s errand. My second observation is
apprentices. We must maximise the trade benefits afforded that in the past week or so we have heard comments
to us as part of the Commonwealth. We have to take from Michel Barnier that it would be difficult, if not
advantage of the opportunities available to us by leaving impossible, to complete a comprehensive trade deal in
the EU in order to achieve a truly global Britain. 11 months. We also heard Ursula von der Leyen saying
I believe that politics is about getting stuff done, both last week that the UK would have to compromise and
locally and nationally. One of my proudest achievements prioritise, so I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman
before being elected was bringing Sir David Attenborough agrees that we should suggest to the Government that
to campaign in Parliament with me, and together we putting the setting of objectives first and silly timetables
successfully lobbied the Secretary of State to increase second might be a really good way to proceed.
funding for tackling plastic pollution. As a one nation
Conservative MP, I will continue to champion the Tom Tugendhat: I am grateful to the hon. Member
environment and the importance of conservation. I for giving way. I will not address his second point—he
welcome the Government’s new Blue Planet fund and has addressed it thoroughly enough—but on his first point,
I believe that the UK is rightly leading the global fight there are many areas in which we co-operate bilaterally
against climate change through hosting the COP26 in with France. The Lancaster House and Sandhurst
Glasgow. I am reminded of a quotation from the great agreements are among many examples.
American President Theodore Roosevelt, who said: Stewart Hosie: Indeed, but I think the hon. Gentleman
“The nation behaves well if it treats the natural resources as understands the point I was making, which was that we
assets which it must turn over to the next generation increased, do not want to find ourselves tied to ridiculous red lines
and not impaired, in value.”
and timetables when the objectives are the key thing.
That is a sentiment that I very much agree with. It is a pleasure to take part in this debate on the
The Queen’s Speech set out this Government’s ambitious Gracious Speech. As with every Queen’s Speech or
international agenda. As a country that has always been programme for government, there are certain measures
a beacon for freedom and tolerance, the UK should not that one would welcome—not least, in the case of this
shirk its global responsibilities. After Brexit, we must Queen’s Speech, the announcement of increased tax
continue to bolster our crucial international alliances credits for research and development. I say that because
and institutions, and expand the UK’s diplomatic network. innovative economies are more productive economies,
I am an advocate for gender equality. I would like to and when we come to combat the inevitable decline
thank the cross-party 50:50 Parliament campaign for its caused by Brexit, the more innovative and productive
tremendous work in encouraging more women to stand we can be, the better. A word of caution, however:
for public office. I will always champion the agenda of research and development tax credits are a function of
women and girls and ensure that their voices are heard corporation tax, and not every innovative or innovating
both at home and abroad. When the suffragettes marched company, particularly the small ones, pays corporation
to London through Stafford, they were met with a tax. So if we can have a little imagination from the
somewhat frosty reception in my constituency, so it Treasury Bench about how we support innovation in
gives me even greater pleasure, 100 years on, to serve smaller companies, that would be very welcome. I also
alongside a record 220 female MPs in this Parliament welcome the announcement that measures will be developed
and to be elected as the very first female MP for my to tackle hostile activity by foreign states, and I hope
constituency. Walking through Westminster Hall for that that builds upon some of the excellent work already
the first time as the Member of Parliament for Stafford, done in the private and public sectors, and essentially by
I was reminded that beneath my feet was the broom the National Cyber Security Centre.
cupboard where the brave suffragette Emily Wilding Although some of the measures to tackle climate
Davison hid on the night of the census, ensuring that it change are very welcome, particularly coming from this
was recorded that a woman’s place is in the House of Government, they are described as being “world leading”
Commons. when they are nothing of the kind. The sad truth is that
807 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 808

is a thin and poor programme for government. As my At least this programme for government suggests that
right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and there will be a trade Bill—which, of course, we should
Lochaber (Ian Blackford) said when opposing the already have had—with which comes the opportunity
programme on the opening day of this debate, our party to table amendments. Those amendments will seek to
stands against this Government’s ensure full parliamentary oversight over trade deals and
“cruel, punishing policies and narrow, backward-gazing politics.”— that our devolved nations’ Parliaments are consulted,
[Official Report, 19 December 2019; Vol. 669, c. 51.] and their consent sought, on trade deals where there is a
I would go further than that. Some of the measures in direct impact on those countries. The amendments will
the programme—such as an immigration Bill that will also seek to ensure that, as the UK rushes headlong into
end in law the free movement of people—will further any deal offered, vital public services such as the NHS
diminish the UK’s ability to attract the best and brightest, are off the table, important geographical indicators are
as well as much-needed labour in other sectors, and protected, and vital regional industries—national industries,
very much risks turning the UK into an insular, reduced in some cases—such as fishing are also protected. Many
and backward-looking place. of us are old enough to remember the last time the
Before addressing the impact that ending free movement Tories treated Scottish fishing as expendable and sold it
will have on the agriculture, hospitality and care sectors, out. We have no confidence that they will not repeat
the brain drain that the UK Government’s hostile that mistake.
environment is already causing, and the brutish logic of Those things—parliamentary scrutiny, collective working
the Tory party—whose plans will reduce the ability of to seek real agreement with the devolved nations, and
young Scots and, indeed, youngsters from throughout protecting the NHS and regionally important sectors—
these islands, to live, love, work and study freely throughout should be at the forefront of UK Ministers’ minds. I
Europe—we might want to consider the practical fear, however, that, at best, they will be dragged kicking
implications of trade and how those matters are related. and screaming to make modest concessions or, worse,
When Commission President von der Leyen said last that the legitimate concerns of people and industries
week: across these islands will be ignored in a headlong dash
“Without the freedom of movement of people, you cannot
for what may be a hideous Tory-Trump deal. When I
have the free movement of capital, goods and services”, was last in the USA last year, I was repeatedly warned
that the UK will be expected to put everything on the
the Government should have listened. At a time when
table, while the US will be expected to put nothing on
we need to boost trade, we should be paying attention
the table. When the Foreign Secretary said that a US-UK
to the damage that will be done to capital markets, the
deal would be win-win, I was struck by his breathtaking
City of London and the ability to export services, all of
naivety in saying something that stands up to no scrutiny
which depend on people being able to travel freely.
whatsoever.
Given the damage that Brexit will cause to UK global
trade, the UK Government should be doing everything Mr Steve Baker: Will the hon. Gentleman attribute to
possible to remove every conceivable obstacle to protecting somebody the advice he was given? I would be very
and enhancing the opportunities to maintain and grow interested to know who thinks that the negotiation will
trade of all sorts—free, fair trade, with a level playing be quite so asymmetric.
field. Instead, in spite of the clearest of warnings, yet
more obstacles are being erected, this time by ending in Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton):
law the free movement of people, which will further Order. Before the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart
weaken and diminish the UK’s ability to strike good Hosie) responds, may I remind colleagues that if we are
trade deals to compensate for the losses and minimise not going to have a time limit, they need to stick to
the additional costs that Brexit will cause. approximately 10 minutes?
We should put a couple of numbers on this. Everybody
Stewart Hosie: I will not attribute that advice—that
knows that there are dozens of economic assessments
would be completely unfair—but I assure the hon.
of Brexit. With one exception, they are universally
Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) that that warning
negative. The National Institute of Economic and Social
was given to me on more than one occasion.
Research provides an average assessment. We could lose
perhaps 20% of total global UK trade with a bad I will take your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker, and
Brexit, and that is where we are heading. If we cut a miss out from my speech a chunk on the trade Bill,
deal with all the main English-speaking economies and which I will be able to use when it is finally published. I
with all the BRICS countries—Brazil, Russia, India, will say one thing, however. The UK Government have
China and South Africa—we might claw back 5% or said the main elements of the trade Bill will be to
6%. It does not take a genius to work out that we will “create powers so that the UK can transition trade agreements we
soon run out of large countries with which to cut deals are party to through our membership of the EU, ensuring continuity
for businesses.”
to compensate for the losses, so adding additional obstacles
strikes me as making no sense. So far, so good. The problem is that this Government
could not even roll over, in full, the agreements we had
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Forecasts with Norway and Switzerland. The Tory Government
do not say that we will lose trade. They simply say that were unable or incapable of replicating the agreements
the rate of growth of our trade will be slower. They do we had with two close, relatively small, western-friendly
not say that there will be a reduction in trade. neighbours, yet they expect that a simple piece of domestic
legislation will pave the way, quickly and easily, to
Stewart Hosie: Many assessments—I am not going to replicating some of the UK’s larger, more complicated
go through them—say that there will be a reduction in deals. If that is what they truly believe, we are no longer
trade. Indeed, some assessments, as I have just said, suggest dealing with reality; we are dealing with the politics of
a 20% loss of total global trade. That is extraordinary. delusion.
809 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 810

[Stewart Hosie] of President Trump—democratically elected in one of

our closest allies. Look at the behaviour of the previous
I will end with what the Foreign Secretary said at the Speaker, who rolled out the red carpet for dictators and
beginning of the debate. I think he was wrong to say autocrats, and then refused entry to the democratically
that, post Brexit, the UK would have expanded global elected leader of our closest ally in NATO. It was a
horizons. The truth is that this programme for disgraceful and small-minded activity that again played
government—including a trade Bill that may give too into ignoring democratic outcomes. If we are to lead the
much power to the Executive, and an immigration Bill world and have a place in the world, we must respect
that will end freedom of movement—will lead to a democracy. That must be No. 1. Whether or not we like
weakened, diminished, reduced UK, with shrinking, the outcomes, we must respect democracy, but that
not expanded, global horizons. We will oppose this respect has sadly been lacking in so many ways, mainly
programme for government, and the sooner we are out led by the Opposition Benches.
of this United Kingdom and this backward-looking
politics, the better for us all. Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): My right hon.
Friend is making an extremely important point. Does
6.58 pm he agree that much of the frightening rise of extremist
elements, particularly in France and the Netherlands,
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): It is a can be traced back to how the Governments of the
pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for 1990s ignored clear decisions that their electorates had
Stafford (Theo Clarke), whom I congratulate on her taken in referenda, particularly around Europe?
uplifting, upbeat and excellent maiden speech. This is
one of the most exciting moments of my career. There is Alec Shelbrooke: I am most grateful to my hon.
so much to be positive about—better than the morose Friend. His point is just as relevant today. In fact, we
dirge we have just heard from the hon. Member for Dundee are seeing a rise of extremist parties across Europe.
East (Stewart Hosie). Whether it be Vox in Spain or the Swedish Democrats,
I view this new decade as having the potential of the all these people come from questionable pasts. This is
1980s. This country moved forward so much during all based on the fact that populaces feel that their
that decade. Given the economic policies we have had to national Governments are not taking notice of their
put in place over the past 10 years, at least we start this demands.
decade in strong economic circumstances and there is Brexit was a pressure valve for us in many ways. It
so much we can exploit. I honestly think that this will be allowed people who felt ignored to vent their fury at
the decade of reward. This will be the decade of change, where they thought things were going without having to
and this decade will make us lead around the world in move to extreme parties, and we in this country should
the 21st century. We are moving towards a high-tech, be grateful for that. The reality is that we have just had
high-wage, high-growth, high-productivity economy. We an election in which extremist views were rejected. The
are not there at the moment, but this Queen’s Speech right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition
and what has been laid out in the programme for threatened to shut down elements of the press if he did
government show that, with the policies the Prime Minister not like what they were doing. He released a video in
wants to take forward, those things can be achieved. which he said, “Change is coming. You will all be sorry.”
They can be achieved in this first term, and they can be That was unacceptable and undemocratic. We may not
achieved not least because we have economic strength like what the press say all the time, but we cannot have a
behind us to take things forward. free and open society unless we have a free and open
Today’s debate has rightly focused on some of the key press. If we disagree with what is in the press, it is up to
foreign affairs and defence issues that relate to our place us to argue why it is wrong and to prove our point.
in the world and how we operate, and I will come on to I am being careful about the time, Madam Deputy
discuss a couple of them. However, we must also look at Speaker, but I must say that it is all very well for the
the United Kingdom, our place in the world, and what right hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury
we can achieve. Our infrastructure plans, which I will (Emily Thornberry) to criticise this Government’s
touch on later, are an important part of how we will relationships with partners around the world and to
achieve things. The 2020s will be the decade of healing draw on Yemen, but not once did I hear her lay any of
and growth in all areas, from defence to infrastructure the blame at the Iranian regime that has been arming
to the economy and democracy. the Houthi rebels, launching missiles into Riyadh and
Turning to democracy and our place in the world, using deliberately provocative terms. Given all the events
during the past five years, and even since the general of the past week, the lack of willingness to come out
election, we have heard from people who want to ignore against the Iranians and what they have been up to
democratic outcomes. This general election more than shows that Labour may be able to change its leader but,
any other showed that, above all else, the British people in the words of The Who,
are democrats. I was struck from the moment we had “Meet the new boss,
the vote on Europe in 2016 that those who voted remain Same as the old boss.”
felt, on the whole, that the decision should be honoured. Moving on to defence, freedom is important, and we
They might not have liked the result, but they felt that must ensure that we can defend it. As my right hon.
the decision should be honoured because people are Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis)
fundamentally democratic. said, deterrents are equally as important and, as I said
There has been a habit—this is not just about the to the Secretary of State for Defence last week about
Brexit debate—to ignore democratic results across the world. the possibility of a NATO-led maritime force in the
Look at the backlash in this country against the election strait of Hormuz to act as a deterrent rather than as a
811 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 812

reaction to an attack, we must ensure that we have the House, and I look forward to working with her again
ability to react to such things. When the defence review and to being an advocate for the Department for
comes up, I will make no apology for saying that we International Development. The hon. Member for
must have another proper look at the Royal Navy. It St Albans (Daisy Cooper) spoke about her constituency,
was a mistake to deliver only six of the 12 destroyers. In which is 25 miles away from Edmonton, so maybe I can
fact, the other six destroyers would not have cost half as join in on one of her pub crawls and bring some of my
much to make as the original six, because it was all in constituents.
the programme. We have a good frigate programme, but It is safe to say that this will be a crucial Parliament
we need more. We should be looking at more minesweepers, for Britain’s role in the world. It is much more than the
which are flexible and versatile ships that can be used question of whether and how we leave the European
either to patrol our waters or to help in problem areas. Union; it is about who we are. It is about the fork in the
Lots of people criticised the amount of money spent road that we face. Does Britain want to become a mean,
on the aircraft carriers, but I will be controversial and introspective, protectionist island that clings on only to
say that I would have another one. Frankly, the ability the imagined greatness of some past empire that was
to have aircraft platforms in several different areas is powered by racism and exploitation, or does Britain
important because, as my right hon. Friend the Member want to become a beacon in the modern world for
for New Forest East said—I always appreciate his in-depth global justice, for international human rights and for
work—we do not know where the threats will come tackling climate change, inequality and the refugee crisis?
from. What we do know, however, is that if we cannot Alongside the Government’s legislative programme,
react or work against such things, we may allow them there are important points of policy. The UK must
to spin out of control because we do not have the continue to spend 0.7% of its gross national income on
counterbalances or the deterrents. international development priorities. In fact, I hope this
I agree with Dominic Cummings when he says that Parliament may, in due course, debate increasing it to
there is a major problem in procurement in the Ministry 1% to free up extra funding for climate finance to help
of Defence. We read only this weekend that the Trident the global south survive the climate emergency.
replacement is already £1.3 billion over budget. How So, too, must the UK protect the independence of its
does that happen? How can we possibly try to build up world-class Department for International Development.
our armed forces and build more ships when a project The Department must not become subservient to another,
that is hardly under way is already over budget by and we must end the civil service recruitment freeze to
billions? There must be a fundamental review. We must bring in badly needed staff to manage the aid budget
also work out how we are going to man all these ships properly.
and how we will recruit. It is all very well building ships,
but we have a recruitment problem, and recruitment has This debate is also about what Britain chooses to
always been hard during times of full employment. stand for; it is about Britain’s politics. The world is
increasingly polarised. On one side sit Putin, Orbán,
I will briefly mention infrastructure, because it is Modi, Bolsonaro, Trump and the rest of Steve Bannon’s
important and will help cement our place in the world. dream of a fragmented new world order. On their side,
If we want to have a high-tech economy, we must build they reject the rules, the international law and the
for it. We have to ensure that fibre broadband goes in. universal human rights that have taken decades for the
We have to work on transport solutions. We must be world to establish. On their side, Trump takes the world
honest and say that if a solution does not look like it is backwards on climate change and women’s reproductive
going to deliver what it should deliver or if the price rights. He decrees invasions on Twitter and insults the
is going up, there must be other ways to deliver that world’s poorest for living in what he calls “shithole
solution. I still want HS2 to come to my city of Leeds, countries.”
because it will be vital. However, whether it does that by
going to Manchester and then looping into HS3, I am Theirs is the side of engineered chaos, of injustice
open to suggestions. At the moment, I am finding it and of ever-widening inequality, but on the other side
hard to see how the price tag, which is almost double stand hope and an international order that is strong and
what we were led to believe, can deliver the benefits we stable, and that could even begin to become fair. Imagine
are looking for, especially when there are other ways, a new economics that could work for the planet and the
given the Prime Minister’s agenda, that it can be delivered people, and a world that actually brings people together
to my city of Leeds. to solve our biggest challenges, such as inequality and
the climate breakdown.
I am an optimist, and I am very excited about the one
nation agenda that is being put forward in this Queen’s That is the side the UK must pick each and every
Speech. I honestly believe that the reason why this will time, but I and many other Opposition Members are
be a fantastic decade is the strength of the one nation worried that the current Government will just keep
agenda. We will not be talking about the roaring ‘20s; picking the wrong side. The truth is that what we saw of
we will look back at this period as the start of the the current Government in the last Parliament is a
roaring 21st century. Prime Minister who has already made his choice, which
is to take his place in Steve Bannon’s new world order.
As this new Parliament commences, it will be up to us in
7.8 pm this House to chart a better way forward for Britain,
Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): It is an honour whether inside or outside the European Union.
to add my voice to this important debate, and it has I end my speech by making three simple pleas to
been a pleasure to hear new Members giving their Members on both sides of the House: first, that we do
maiden speeches. I worked with the hon. Member for not let the Prime Minister and his extremist faction take
Stafford (Theo Clarke) before she took her place in this Britain off the cliff; secondly, that we do not let the
813 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 814

[Kate Osamor] after reading Mary’s comments in The Yorkshire Post

about her incoming Tory opponent being parachuted
Prime Minister side with dictators and populists when it in, I put the protestations of my friends and family
comes to the crunch; and, thirdly, that we do not let the aside and performed a parachute jump. This had not
Prime Minister pick the wrong side of history. Instead, been on any bucket list of mine, but it definitely got the
let us all hold him to account by consistently speaking adrenalin flowing, so thank you, Mary.
up for global justice throughout this Parliament. Later that day, with my feet firmly on the ground, I
Several hon. Members rose— met Mary for the first time. We were both appearing on
a BBC Radio Leeds drivetime debate, and I turned up
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It still resplendent in my true blue jumpsuit. Mary accepted
is a great pleasure to call Imran Ahmad Khan to make it with good grace, and during this first encounter set
his maiden speech. out her stall as a calm, concise and experienced advocate.
That first meeting was in one of Wakefield’s many
7.14 pm good schools: Queen Elizabeth Grammar School. It
Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): It is with was QEGS where my eldest brother went to school, and
great pleasure and some humility that I rise to make it is the arch rival of my own alma mater, Silcoates.
this, my maiden speech. I have found the House to be a QEGS is an independent school that has actively
welcoming place that I am proud to be part of. Over the championed and supported its local state sector rivals,
past month, I have at times been awestruck by the including the outstanding Pontefract College, and was a
kindness, helpfulness and near encyclopaedic knowledge willing participant in the assisted places scheme. As the
of the wonderful staff who serve this place and whom radio programme came to an end, the pupils in the
I find to be this Palace’s greatest treasure trove. audience immediately gravitated towards Mary. This
was an example of the interest and affection that many
I especially wish to thank my constituency neighbour,
constituents in Wakefield have for her.
my hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood
(Mrs Jenkyns), and her team, who have been a great I, like Mary, contend with a hearing impairment,
support to me over the past two months. I wish to say something she referenced in her own maiden speech.
what a pleasure it is to be part of such a vibrant and Wakefield has within its dynamic business community a
dynamic pack of Yorkshire MPs. Indeed my neighbour, company that is currently accessing research funding to
my right hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell investigate tinnitus, a hearing condition for which there
(Alec Shelbrooke), came and helped me a great deal. He are more than a million GP referrals each year. This
contested Wakefield in his infancy, and he gave me a lot project has multiple international partners, including
of advice and, indeed, shoe leather. industry, government and academia.
Speaking of shoe leather, I am mindful of all those I would also like to pay special tribute to Mary’s time
who have graced this green leather, and have confidence and contribution while working on overseas aid and
that we will step up and meet the challenges promised development. This resonates with me a lot owing to my
by this privilege of public service. I am also aware of the previous work at the United Nations and elsewhere
energy and emotion that this House and the people abroad. Our overseas aid and development is testament
whom it serves have invested in the Brexit debate. The to British compassion, and it can be leveraged as a
underlying theme of unleashing our United Kingdom’s powerful agent for, and a real measure of, Britain’s
potential to innovate, adapt, overcome and triumph is reach and influence around the world. Mary was a
not lost in the character of my constituency of Wakefield. public servant, and I hope she is able to continue her
As Britain does indeed renew and consolidate her work in other places. Wakefield is fortunate to have had
place in the world, I cannot think of anywhere else such a worthy Member of Parliament.
more important to be than here, helping that happen now. Having concluded my comments about my predecessor,
Britain has still to may I direct the thoughts of the House to the sad news
“Play up! play up! and play the game!”, of the death of His Majesty Sultan Qaboos of Oman?
improving the world and enhancing our place in it. Through the Sultan, Oman has been an ally of Britain
As an Ahmadi Muslim belonging to a peace-loving since 1970. In a part of the world where there are
minority community that suffers vicious persecution, definite fault lines, his kingdom looked to us for guidance
discrimination and oppression in many parts of the and friendship. In return, Oman has been a friend to
world, I see perhaps more clearly than most the deep Britain, and I hope it will continue to represent the
and enduring importance of core British values such as greater aspects of the United Kingdom’s place in the
compassion, tolerance and fairness, especially at a time world.
when those values are perceived as under threat in many I was born in Wakefield. I attended school in Wakefield.
parts of our world. We must continue to be a beacon of My late father, a dermatologist, practised medicine in
thoughtful, respected and innovative thinking born of Wakefield, spending his entire working life in the NHS.
years of accumulated learning and practice. That led to him meeting my mother, a nurse at Wakefield’s
Before I launch into the rich history of Wakefield, Pinderfields Hospital. My nana was a night sister there.
one with which my own family story is intertwined, I It is fair to say that I quite literally owe my entire
want to pay tribute to my predecessor. In 2005 Mary existence to the NHS and to Wakefield. I feel the warm
Creagh became the first woman elected to represent glow of history when I tell the House that, according to
Wakefield, a tenure that was to last for 14 years. I am my mother, my grandfather Wilfred Benjamin Reynolds
not sure if the House is aware, but before Mary and I was the Boys’ Brigade leader for the father of the hon.
first met, she propelled me to new heights—approximately Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett). I look forward
13,000 feet. On a bright November morning last year, to working with my constituency neighbour and having
815 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 816

meetings with him, although I do not expect that we so Wakefield has a link to education. It is at this point
will be wearing shorts, playing conkers or drinking that I wish to highlight a large number of young people
cocoa around the campfire. in my constituency for whom equality of opportunity
Since gaining city status in 1888, Wakefield has many needs to be made real—more than just fine-sounding
claims to fame. The cruise-ship loving singer Jane words. There are still too many young people from
McDonald and the 1980s band Black Lace hail from disadvantaged backgrounds who are not in employment,
Wakefield. Many Members may have danced to one of education or training. I look forward to working with
their memorable singalong songs such as “Agadoo” at a Her Majesty’s dynamic Government and, whenever they
wedding party. [Laughter.] Clearly, I have. are willing, those on the Opposition Benches to support
Edward the Confessor had an estate in Wakefield, the creation of new jobs and opportunities to improve
hundreds of years after it was first settled by the Anglo- the lives of people who deserve more attention and
Saxons and Vikings. In J. S. Fletcher’s “Nooks & Corners greater fairness than they have had in the past. This will
of Yorkshire”—a very good read—he describes Wakefield not come just by saturating our northern towns and
as the principal town along the banks of the Calder, cities facing similar circumstances with concrete, cranes
and it has figured in history to no small extent. Indeed, and portakabins; it will come by delivering excellent
it is just over 560 years ago to the day, on 30 December education and training. The self-esteem that comes from
1460, that Richard Neville, Duke of York, and his son earning the contents of a pay packet lifts people up and
Thomas met their deaths at the battle of Wakefield. The in turn brings the aspiration of owning a home.
Lancastrians, led by Lord Clifford, defeated the Yorkists, I have already mentioned the company that is
only to suffer a major reverse months later in Britain’s investigating a treatment framework for tinnitus, but
bloodiest battle, at Towton, a site just down the road. my constituency and the wider business community has
Wakefield became yet another battlefield almost 200 years within it other companies involved heavily in fields that
later, during the English civil war, when the parliamentarian may surprise some Members. There is a company working
forces fought an engagement with the royalists. Although on supercomputer-generated models for predicting adverse
I now find myself a parliamentarian, Madam Deputy weather patterns. After the recent flooding in our region,
Speaker, I confess to you to always having sympathised, my constituency neighbours the right hon. Member for
in the round, with Cavaliers. Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), my hon. Friend
According to an old English ballad, Wakefield can the Member for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) and the
claim fame as the location for some of Robin Hood’s hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) may
shenanigans. It was at Stanley, later part of Wakefield’s well welcome the positive outcomes of this work. There
deep historical roots in the coalmining industry, that are also companies that are pioneering and improving
Robin and his band of freebooters had their infamous new methods of high-tech manufacturing and recycling
encounter with the pinder of Wakefield. The pinder was harmful plastics. I want to see these companies thrive,
a nominated townsman of Wakefield who went toe to not only with their spirit of innovation but by employing
toe with Robin and his merry men after they goaded skilled young people born and educated in the local
him by trespassing with stray animals on Wakefield area. Throughout my campaign, I heard the voices of
land. Robin was so impressed by the pinder’s nerve and hard-working parents who want the best for the most
prowess that he invited him to join his outlaw band. This important thing in their lives: their children. I want to
may be a legend, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it aptly help to carry the torch, already lit by the individuals
captures some of the characteristics of the proud, honest and organisations in my constituency, to foster confidence,
and plain-speaking constituents of Wakefield, and their aspiration and achievement.
continued willingness to fight for their rights. I humbly When Members of this House have need of a tranquil
submit that when you come to visit our city, Madam place for quiet reflection in which to think about their
Deputy Speaker, you keep your flock of geese under choices—maybe for leadership—and decide, I would
control—or perhaps even consider leaving them at home. recommend a visit to the Yorkshire Sculpture Park, a
The Wakefield area is the traditional home of the real gem not only of my constituency but of God’s own
headquarters of West Yorkshire police, one of Britain’s country. There they may find peace of mind and enhanced
largest police forces. West Yorkshire police, with their perspective while appreciating the beautiful sculptures
regional, national and international partners, have played of Barbara Hepworth, Antony Gormley and Henry Moore.
a major role in counter-terrorism policing since the There is one further individual I would like to mention—a
7/7 attacks of 2005. The former assistant chief constable, great patriotic son of Yorkshire and a true servant of
John Parkinson, was an early leader of the then North Wakefield who, when asked in this place to speak for
East Counter Terrorism Unit and a thought leader in England, lent his voice and vote to the fight against
formulating and codifying the Contest strategy, a key tyranny: the right hon. Arthur Greenwood. Until the
framework in UK counter-terrorism practice, keeping recent election, the last Conservative to be returned to
our communities safe and countering the radicalisation this place by the people of Wakefield was a surgeon
of the vulnerable. For the United Kingdom and her called George Hillman, in 1931. Sadly, Hillman died
status in the world, in terms of capability, those police that same year, and in the ensuing election of ’32,
represent the very best, alongside our gallant armed Arthur Greenwood was elected. That started a continuous
forces, superb intelligence agencies and our universally chain of Labour representation for Wakefield here, broken
admired diplomats. These capabilities are respected and only one month ago today.
studied by a broad base of our international partners My predecessor Arthur was the MP for Wakefield
involved in the evolving, ongoing fight against terrorism during the second world war. He served in the war
and organised crime. Cabinet, where he played a decisive role. In 1940, when
Other famous people from Wakefield include John Europe and east Asia were smouldering and the only
Radcliffe, founder of the Radcliffe library in Oxford, guns left sounding in defiant support of freedom were
and Richard Fleming, founder of Lincoln College, Oxford, British, there existed a plurality of voices in this Cabinet
817 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 818

[Imran Ahmad Khan] Skolars rugby league club is in Wood Green and may
well one day meet Trinity, which is, of course, a very
of five: those with Churchill and the continued prosecution famous rugby league team. In replacing the outgoing
of the war, and others who thought that Britain was too Member for Wakefield, the hon. Gentleman has very
weak and diminished to go it alone in the world. It was large shoes to fill. I look forward to further, perhaps
this camp, which wished to sue Hitler’s inhuman project shorter, interventions to learn more about him.
for peace, that seemed to have the numbers in Cabinet. We know that good foreign policy is underpinned by
Faced with surrendering to the most villainous and three basic pillars of security, trade and human rights.
malevolent powers, it was the deciding vote from In my remarks today, which will be quite short, I will set
Greenwood—and, indeed, therefore Wakefield—that out why I believe that the UK’s departure from the
sided with Churchill and informed the nation and our European Union could, in geopolitical terms, weaken
enemies that Britain would never surrender. our role, our influence and our position in the world.
The rest, as they say, is history. However, history Hopefully, that will only be for the short term, but it
sometimes provides parallels, and when faced again will certainly be for the foreseeable future.
with the prospect of capitulation, in the spirit of Arthur World peace and the UK’s security rely on a series of
Greenwood much of what had been taken for granted strong relationships and networks that can assert a
as the traditional Labour vote up and down the country dominant position so that aggressive forces can be held
came out and entrusted a Conservative Prime Minister in check. Belonging to the EU provides a non-military
once again not to bend, bow or buckle. I will do my network of friends and allies to rely on in tough times.
best, as will, I am certain, my newly elected hon. Friends, Modern defence issues are as much about shared databases
not only from across Yorkshire and the north but from as traditional notions of bombs and guns. Leaving
all parts of our United Kingdom, to vindicate and European agreements on security undermines a well-tested
honour all those who have lent us their vote. system of keeping us safe. Brexit puts at real risk the
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not drawing a direct joint approaches with European systems to ensure cyber-
connection with the past, if you will excuse a brief security and the sharing of intelligence. It also undermines
comment on the substantial subject of this debate. For the European arrest warrant. Abandoning our leadership
too long now, Britain’s role in the world has trended role in European affairs could fragment a very strong
towards reactive and indecisive. I am sad to say that in and assertive voice in defence, such as in discussions on
too many corners of the world that I have visited or cyber-security, in shared counter-terror tools and in wider
have lived in, there is greater esteem for the UK than sits questions of weapons proliferation.
within some of this country’s own commentariat and
Increasingly, climate change also presents insecurity
policymakers. With a governmental majority and the
on a global scale. This year, the UK could become a
confidence of the British people behind us, we must
true leader on the climate crisis, with Glasgow hosting
now turn our attention to restoring pride and purpose
the COP26 climate summit in November—I hope it will
in our foreign policy. As my predecessor Greenwood
be more conclusive than the Madrid meeting—following
knew, it is sometimes necessary to take decisive action
closely on Labour’s push for this House to become the
and then summon all the strength of purpose the nation
first Parliament in the world to declare a climate emergency.
can muster to deliver that decision. We will not always
It is a real pleasure to hear Members from across the
please every country and every court of opinion, but we
House promoting the role that the Inter-Parliamentary
should recall that in this country’s rich history of foreign
Union and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association
affairs runs a proud theme of making the world a better
play in developing that role for parliamentarians.
place. We should take heart and be emboldened by this
overwhelmingly positive legacy and continue to fight Although the UK has a good policy platform at the
for the freedom of people everywhere to live and worship level of UK missions abroad—for example, promoting
as they please. We can only realise this if we are strong, measures to mitigate climate change—this priority could
confident and outgoing. To succeed, we must take wise be at risk if a free trade agreement demands some other
and informed decisions and have the vision and dynamism priority.
to lead. That is what the people of Wakefield and,
indeed, the majority of all the nations of this great Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): On that
country expect of us. I know that we can rise to that point about climate change and international trade, the
once again. UK is hosting the COP26 conference in Glasgow in
Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank you and Members November this year. Is that not an opportunity to assert
present for listening to this maiden speech of mine. I how climate change should be at the heart of our
owe my sincere thanks to the people of Wakefield, international trade policy?
whom I am proud to serve. I seek a purposeful and
confident future for our United Kingdom wherein people’s Catherine West: Indeed, that is the case. As a member
hopes and aspirations are realised and great achievements of the Foreign Affairs Committee, I have seen that,
recorded—a future as brilliant as our past is glorious. when one visits certain missions abroad, there is a good
policy understanding among our diplomats. However,
7.32 pm that is sometimes not necessarily reflected in this House,
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): I and we must work much harder to ensure that we have
congratulate the hon. Member for Wakefield (Imran our Ministers talking about the subject and promoting
Ahmad Khan) on his very comprehensive speech. However, it much more themselves.
I have to say that he failed to mention the famous Secondly, good foreign policy relies on a vibrant
Wakefield Trinity rugby league team. Madam Deputy domestic economy and a realistic trade policy, providing
Speaker, I am sure that you, like me, noticed that. As the a positive financial context in which to play a leadership
Member for Wood Green, I know that the London role abroad. Instead, Brexit provides years of uncertainty,
819 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 820

which will harm long-term economic growth and a setting that out. There are of course opportunities in an
sense of buoyancy in our economy while consigning our ever-evolving world, where emerging markets may present
economic importance to that of a middling nation. light at the end of a Brexit tunnel, but there are real
The past decade has already seen anaemic growth in risks in fragmenting our long-term defence and security
the domestic economy as a result of the disastrous relationships with the European member states—that
policy of austerity and the self-inflicted wounds of basis of friendship. The trade picture is one of uncertainty
Brexit. Just today, in the financial pages, there is much and promises of jam tomorrow, against a backdrop of a
discussion about another rate cap by the Bank of England coasting domestic economy. Leaving the predictable
because of fears of another dip in our economy. Households family of the European Union will make the promotion
are worse off now than they were in 2010—10 years of human rights and ethical foreign policy doubly difficult,
ago. Simultaneously, there is a real risk that UK trade and in my view will go down in history as a gross
policy could erode standards on our trade in goods and mistake and an act of national self-harm.
lead to a diminishing of the ease of trading in services
owing to the ridiculously short adjustment period that Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It
the Government have given themselves to achieve is with great pleasure that I call Alicia Kearns to make
equivalence in financial services. The amount of political her maiden speech.
capital in energy required to negotiate a free trade
agreement with the EU and the unrealistic timeframe of 7.40 pm
11 months will mean that the UK is likely to reduce its
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con): Madam
influence in other crucial international relations issues.
Deputy Speaker, thank you for allowing me to make my
Finally, membership of the European Union has, to first speech in this House, in this debate on a most
date, provided a strong front to promote values and consequential Queen’s Speech. It has been an honour to
norms in international relations, including a robust be present in this great Chamber today to hear the
approach to promoting human rights. The UK was contributions of parliamentary veterans and new recruits
instrumental in designing a strong framework of protecting alike. I can only hope to emulate them.
human rights, as it was the first nation to ratify the
The mystical beauty of Rutland and Melton stretches
Council of Europe’s convention on human rights in
from the vale of Belvoir in the north, down towards
war-ravaged Europe in 1949. The convention commits
Rutland Water and the delights borrowed from the
each signatory—each nation that signs up to it—to
district of Harborough; I note that my hon. Friend the
abide by certain standards of behaviour and protect the
Member for Harborough (Neil O’Brien) is not here, so I
basic rights and freedoms of ordinary people. The
can talk about stealing from him. The natural landscape
treaty aims to protect the rule of law and promote
is adorned with the architectural majesties of many
democracy. The EU institutions in practice have performed
beautiful market towns.
an important function to maintain human rights dialogue
with large trade partners, such as China, Japan and We are proud of our role in feeding the nation, with
Turkey. Let us take, for example, trade relationships arable, dairy, sheep, pig, poultry and even bison farmers,
with Turkey. How will the UK be able to hold Turkey to who for generations past—and generations to come—have
account on its treatment, for example, of the Kurdish ensured that food quality, animal welfare and environmental
and Alevi communities, when trying at the same time to conservation are paramount to their trade. Towards the
forge a trade deal and possibly to selling them even centre of the constituency is the rural capital of food:
more arms than we do now? On the case of China, how Melton Mowbray of pork pie fame. [HON. MEMBERS:
can we have those honest discussions with that giant “Hear, hear!”] I can promise the House that we will hear
nation around the issues of Xinjiang province, Hong much of the pork pie over the next few years. We can
Kong and Taiwan, when, at the same time, we desperately also boast that we are home to not just one, but two
want to promote our trade arrangements with them? geographically protected delicacies, which are, to repeat:
the famous Melton Mowbray pork pie and Stilton
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): My cheese. Although agriculture is our chief activity, there
hon. Friend is making such an important point. Was is also light industry. Members will be particularly
she as perturbed as I was last week by reports that interested to hear of Clipsham quarry at the constituency’s
No. 10 adviser Tim Montgomerie suggested that there eastern edge, for when Parliament was undergoing
was a spiritual connection between this current Government restoration work in the previous century, it was from here
and the country of Viktor Orbán? This direction of that the stone was supplied.
illiberalism will cut very much into the heart of the Unfortunately, however, my constituency has had a
human rights that she has described. precarious history, and its beauty and rural spirit have
not always proved a sufficient defence against the palace
Catherine West: Indeed. The shadow Foreign Secretary courtiers and planners in London, who since at least the
made the point that the Queen’s Speech is sufficiently 12th century have thought Rutland a foolish accident.
vague in its wording that anything is possible. I think It is, I think, little coincidence that the year that the
that is perhaps where some of us have a concern. We county was absorbed into Leicestershire—despite fervent
need to hear the exact detail of the policy proposals so local protest—was the year after the UK joined the
that we can better understand what direction we are European Community. The eternal tension between
actually travelling in. county and city was played out on a larger scale as a
After Brexit, the UK will lose much of its leverage Community became a Union, and perhaps we have
during trade talks, as concessions will need to be made come to learn from both episodes that identities are
now that we are not part of the EU. Britain’s role in a important at all levels. Cosmopolitan and parochial
post-Brexit world is yet to be determined, and the world views can co-exist, as long as there is respect
Queen’s Speech does not go into nearly enough detail in between the two. Now, back to Melton.
821 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 822

[Alicia Kearns] Hybrid warfare is not necessarily a factor in an overt

or declared war; it is now deployed concurrently in
It was in the Leicestershire part of my constituency, peacetime and wartime. Crucially, the actors are occluded,
of pork pie fame, that I was interested to discover that since the most effective enemy is the one who deploys
the phrase “paint the town red” originated. In 1837, an forces against us without us even realising that we are
eccentric aristocrat by the name of Henry de La Poer under attack or in conflict. That means that the threats
Beresford—I will not claim that he is necessarily related we now face are from states that behave like terrorists,
to my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul terrorists who behave like states, and individuals who
Beresford)—turned up at the gates of Melton with his, can effect as much damage as previously only states and
shall we say, over-refreshed band of friends and refused well-funded groups were thought capable. Hybrid warfare
to pay the toll gate fee to enter the town. They then is no longer an esoteric afterthought, rather the whole
happened upon a pot of paint—red paint—and proceeded lens through which our defences and diplomatic efforts
to apply a fresh coat to every doorstep on the high should be assessed during the foreign policy, defence
street. Personally, I was rather afraid that Momentum, and security review we rightly propose to deliver. We
who besieged the constituency during the election, would must recognise that to protect ourselves, we must bolster
do the exact same thing, but fortunately we were spared. and defend all levels of our society, not just military
I thank the people of Rutland and Melton for putting infrastructure and capabilities. We must recognise that
their trust in me, for I trust the collective wisdom of the to defeat our enemies, we will have to possess truly
people to choose what is appropriate for them at any hybrid offensive and defensive capabilities ourselves.
given time, and it is for all of us here to guard against For nearly 1,000 years, Rutland’s motto has been
complacency. It is in this spirit that I hope my service “multum in parvo” or “much in little”. The same could
will be characterised. As significant powers return to be said for this great country. It is not through vastness
this Parliament, our roles as constituency MPs have that we have become a beacon in the world, but rather
never been more important, and it is the silent victories the commercial talent of our citizens, the power of our
that will define my time as an MP: to secure new ideas, and the strength of our democracy and laws,
housing for a constituent; to resolve an issue dividing a which by unapologetic defence, have stood the test of
family; to fix a failure in the system; or to restore time. Lest I be accused of already trying to attract the
strength and stability to a community. It is in our attention of the Prime Minister with the use of classical
constituents’ darkest moments, when they have nowhere phrases—if it works, that is not a problem—there is a
else left to turn, that it becomes our duty to give a voice Greek aphorism that complements the Latin: “gno-thi
to the voiceless and to speak of the unspeakable so that seauton”, meaning “know thyself ”. This has always
no one suffers in silence. been a sound basis for British foreign policy. More than
The people of Rutland and Melton have had an ever now, in a world of hybrid warfare, we must be
excellent advocate in Sir Alan Duncan. He served his temperate where possible and decisive where necessary.
constituents for 27 years, and I plan to be here just as These phrases, “much in little” and “know thyself ”, will
long. [HON. MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] Sir Alan served his guide me to serve the good people of Rutland and
constituents with great diligence and care, his party’s Melton and to achieve those silent victories.
Front Bench with consummate political skill, and his
country with distinction. In his maiden remarks, he 7.49 pm
lamented that Rutland had been abolished as a county Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP):
in 1974. Now, thanks to his efforts, it has regained its What a fine first outing for the hon. Member for Rutland
own postcode and become a unitary authority again, and Melton (Alicia Kearns)! The former Chair of the
and I wear its badge with pride; but not to fear those Foreign Affairs Committee did warn me that she was
from Leicestershire, I also wear that badge. I salute one to look out for. She will not have seen what I could
Sir Alan’s courage in being the first openly gay Conservative see, which was his career slipping away before him. I
MP and I am proud that our party is home to all. have no idea why Ministers on the Treasury Bench are
It is fitting that I have been given the opportunity to laughing at that, because the same could be said for
make my maiden remarks in a debate on Britain’s place them. It was in many ways the perfect maiden speech. It
in the world. As International Development Minister, contained humour in great serving, it had a generous
then as a member of the Intelligence and Security tribute to her predecessor—a story of whom I will tell
Committee, and finally as Minister for Europe and the her, but not in this House—and just enough steel to
Americas, Sir Alan was a steady hand for our allies and show that she is indeed a voice to be reckoned with. She
all those engaged in our foreign policy. He has helped to did well, and I wish her well in her parliamentary career.
ensure that Britain remains the foremost voice in the It would be remiss of me not to also mention the hon.
world for parliamentary democracy, fundamental liberties Members for St Albans (Daisy Cooper), for Stafford
and a free economy. (Theo Clarke) and for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan)—he
This Queen’s Speech demonstrates that the Government certainly has a future in reading audio books, for sure.
understand the threats our nation faces and that the I had not realised that he was going to start that
nature of warfare has fundamentally changed. It is no tonight, mind you, but it was a fine outing that he had
longer a story of traditional military conflict—a set as well.
battle space in which infantry, artillery, ships, boats and The title of this debate is “Britain in the World”. As
planes fight it out to the last man standing. The battle is my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith)
now fully hybrid in nature. By that, I mean the sustained said in his opening salvo, Britain in the world is not our
and persistent strategic deployment of all potential project. We wish it well—Britain in the world matters to
instruments of influence: economic, informational, military, us—but our project is to maintain Scotland’s place
cultural, cyber, diplomatic, criminal and civil society. in Europe. Scotland, as well as being an independent
823 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 824

European country, will be the greatest ally of and closest As was mentioned in an intervention on the hon.
partner and friend to the rest of the United Kingdom Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West),
once it has restored its independence. a new kind of political gangsterism is rearing its head—
As others have sought to do, I want to adumbrate the yes, on the continent of Europe, but in other parts of
context in which this debate is taking place. As my hon. the world as well. I would be interested to see in the
Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) integrated review how the Government plan to get the
said, there is certainly, I hate to say it—no matter how balance right. Of course we would expect Britain to
myopic and rose-tinted the lenses of Conservative advance its interests and seek to get good things where
Members—a receding Britain offering itself out to the they are good, but how do they balance that with
world. That can be seen no more than in its exit from having the tough conversations that need to be had? I
the European Union and the way in which that is have to be honest: the score sheet does not look too
happening. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling, good from where I am standing. We now have a situation
I can accept that the Government now have a mandate where the Government are becoming more and more
to press ahead with Brexit, but it is an arithmetical fact relaxed on, for example, Huawei. Why on earth would
that that mandate does not stand in Scotland, and it is we go ahead and invite this virus into the security
our job to make that case. I plead with the Government, apparatus here in the United Kingdom? The United
with their huge new majority, to abide by what he States Government—I cannot believe I am saying this—are
mentioned, which is to always understand that one’s right on Nord Stream 2 and right on Huawei, and the
opponent might well have a point. Despite the Government’s UK Government are getting it all wrong.
majority, there should be no monopoly on wisdom. My hon. Friend the Member for Stirling mentioned
Freedom of movement is one of the greatest diplomatic the report on Russian action in this country to subvert
instruments ever to have underpinned peace on the democracy and much else. That report has been concealed
continent of Europe, and departing from it will be a for entirely political reasons. We do not need to wait for
huge crime to future generations. I plead with those Select Committees to be up and running. The Intelligence
Conservative Members who believe in it to please stand and Security Committee is not a normal Select Committee
up for it within their own forums. of the House—it exists by statute—so the Government
We have heard much talk about the need for the could get on with this and get that report published, as
United Kingdom to start playing a proper and more should have happened before the election.
serious role in the United Nations Security Council, I want briefly to focus my remarks on Ukraine. I
which is one of the instruments of the international declare an interest of sorts in that I am to receive the
order that are supposed to underpin peace across the presidential state honour—I have forgotten the name of
globe but have been rendered utterly meaningless by the award—from the President of Ukraine, President
events over the past few years—largely, it has to be said, Zelensky. I have not received it yet, so I am putting that
because of the actions of Russia, which is now pretty out there just in case I do have to declare it. Ukraine
much the only vote that matters in the Security Council. weeps for its sons and daughters every night as, yes,
I want to hear from the Government exactly how they hybrid warfare but also a physical war takes place on its
plan to deal with that in the upcoming integrated territory. The right hon. Member for Maldon and I
review. There are already discussions and ideas being have visited the same parts of eastern Ukraine. We have
advanced at a European level, not least by President maintained strong relations and even friendships with
Macron. I do not agree with everything he says, but he politicians there who want to see that war coming to an
can sometimes bring forward uncomfortable truths and end. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling rightly
interesting solutions to counter them, perhaps with a said, we are not short of platitudes in this House, but I
European-style model. think it can honestly be said that 25 years after the
We have, of course, an unpredictable man in the signing of the Budapest memorandum, that document
White House—more unpredictable than anyone who now stands as utterly unfit for purpose. I do not blame
has gone before. We have a gangster in the Kremlin who the UK Government for that—I do not blame any of
has redrawn the borders of a sovereign European nation the signatories for it—but it does need to be debated. I
by force—the first time that has happened since the hope that when I table such a debate, I will find allies
second world war. Let us be honest: the world has around the House so that we can discuss it properly. It is
largely allowed that to happen, and what has gone on in about not just eastern Ukraine but what is happening in
Ukraine has gone unnoticed. In fact, what is happening— Crimea, where Crimean Tatars continue to be subjected
this is why I pressed the Secretary of State on it earlier—is to persecution and anyone who flies the Ukrainian flag
that the Kremlin is being rewarded for its actions in will find themselves very swiftly in a Russian prison.
Ukraine by dint of the fact that Nord Stream 2 will go Funding continues to dominate as a huge issue for
ahead. The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton the Ministry of Defence. I was amazed to hear the right
mentioned hybrid warfare. What do we think Nord hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke)—I
Stream 2 is if not an instrument of Putin’s hybrid am not sure whether he is still in his place—suddenly
warfare? We shall reap what we sow. When her predecessor realise that procurement is a massive issue. Anyone who
used to stand at the Dispatch Box or respond on behalf has attended a defence debate in this Chamber will
of the Government in Westminster Hall, he would know that this has been getting discussed since long
tell me and tell the right hon. Member for Maldon before I turned up in this place five years ago. As the
(Mr Whittingdale), the chair of the all-party parliamentary former Chair of the Defence Committee, the right hon.
group on Ukraine, that Nord Stream 2 was largely Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), mentioned,
nothing to do with the United Kingdom’s interests. I the last mini review that took place had attached to it a
am quite confident that the hon. Member for Rutland requirement that it be fiscally neutral. It sounds to me
and Melton will take a different view, and I wish her as though that will not be the case this time round, and
luck in advancing it if she does. if that is so, it is welcome.
825 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 826

[Stewart Malcolm McDonald] can chunter away from a sedentary position if he likes,
but I have yet to hear a sensible argument from him in
In the last Parliament, I pressed the then Minister of the time that he has been here on how we improve those
State, the former Member for Aberconwy, on the terms and conditions. I am happy to let him intervene.
Government getting serious about the fact that the
Ministry of Defence bleeds money as though it is going Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
out of fashion. It is very simple: Governments carry out (Con): I was not seeking to intervene; I apologise.
a threat assessment. Governments then look at what
they need to meet the challenges in that threat assessment StewartMalcolmMcDonald:Okay.Sometimesinterventions
and fund what they need to. That is where we can get are best made on one’s feet, as opposed to from one’s
into a proper discussion on multi-year defence agreements. seat.
If the small Scandinavian countries can manage this—if Lastly—this was partly the subject of my Adjournment
they can take the political heat out of defence funding debate last week—it is time that we took seriously the
and provide some stability to their armed forces—surely, woeful lack of democratic oversight of special forces in
with the collective imagination that exists here, we should this country. Nobody wants to see flexibility reduced.
be able to do the same. Nobody wants to see the ability of the Government and
the armed forces to respond to threats be diminished.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) Only a fool would advance such an argument. But other
(Con): The hon. Gentleman is making, as he always countries manage this—the United States of America
does, a measured and thoughtful contribution to the managed this, and I do not think that its President feels
debate. Reform of procurement across Government has particularly inflexible at the moment.
bedevilled successive Administrations. Leaving the European I plead with Government Members, some of whom I
Union provides an opportunity to look afresh at that, know to be thoughtful on this issue and similar ones—one
and I hope I might suggest through him that it is an of them is smiling at me right now—let us have that
urgent priority for Government to look again at this discussion, and let us have it properly. The United
and to do it better, not only in the Ministry of Defence Kingdom lags behind many of its own allies when it
but across all Departments. comes to democratic oversight of special forces, and it
would be a good thing for the Government to seek to
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: The right hon. Gentleman end that in a fair, judicious and transparent fashion that
makes a not entirely unfair point. It does not recruit me still allows security to be taken seriously, but also ensures
to the aim of leaving the European Union, although in that the oversight that is lacking is there to give public
fairness I do not think he was trying to. I accept what he confidence in our special forces and the rest of the armed
says about other Departments, but the idea that forces.
procurement laws in the European Union have somehow
hampered the Ministry of Defence is clearly nonsense. 8.4 pm
We only have to look at the example of the fleet solid
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): This is no time for
support ships. All the Government had to do, as other
timidity. This is a time for boldness in purposeful action.
European Governments have done, was to designate
That is why I was so delighted to hear the maiden
them as warships, and then they could have announced
speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and
that the ships would be built here, giving jobs to shipyards
Melton (Alicia Kearns), who hardly mentioned pork
around the United Kingdom.
pies. She spoke with courage, drama, wit, insight and
The MOD needs to stop privatising where it does not dedication to her electors, and I was delighted to be
have to. Why on earth do we have to privatise, for here for her speech. Similarly, my hon. Friend the
example, the defence fire and rescue service? When on Member for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan) made a
earth are we going to get to grips with giving proper brilliant and charming speech, eloquently calling for
terms and conditions to the Ministry of Defence police, strength, confidence and for us to be outgoing.
treating them properly and rewarding them properly for For about 50 years, the UK Government have been
defending critical state infrastructure? operating in the world within what became the European
It is good to see you in your place, Mr Deputy Union. That has had a profound effect on our outlook
Speaker. The Government’s defence programme this time as politicians, people who commentate on politics and,
round will be different from the last two Parliaments—we indeed, people who make policy within officialdom. It
will actually have some defence legislation. We will have is a major global event that the UK is emerging from
legislation coming forward on vexatious claims, which the European Union in trade policy, security policy,
Opposition Members will scrutinise line by line. We will diplomacy and a wide range of areas.
be judicious and dispassionate, and we will want to get I am absolutely clear what kind of relationship we
that right. Indeed, the Minister for Defence People and should negotiate with the European Union: it is the one
Veterans and I had an exchange on these affairs last in the political declaration on the future relationship,
week. and I am proud of it. I am proud that this Government
There will also be updates to the armed forces covenant, have set it out. It is broad and deep. I wish that it were
which we welcome and want to see implemented properly. more widely read. I, of course, take for granted that
We also want to see better terms and conditions for everyone in the House has read it, but it should be more
members of the armed forces. We will continue to make widely read across the country, because if it were, many
the case for the armed forces to have a proper representative fears would be allayed. We have heard, for example,
body similar to the Police Federation, as is normal in about Erasmus. Of course, the European Union would
other NATO countries—[Interruption.] The hon. Member like us to continue sending our young people all across
for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) Europe, and I would like them to be able to go. But in
827 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 828

negotiating that broad and deep relationship with our the Commission says is definitively true, but instead
great friends in Europe, it is time to change the dynamic. standing up as an independent nation and talking first
We desperately need to get up off our knees, end what I to our US allies and negotiating with them a fantastic
would describe as a timid Eurocentrism and start looking free trade agreement that can stand right alongside our
out seriously to the whole world, so I was delighted to EU free trade agreement as part of that broad partnership,
listen to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary earlier. and also our accession to that Trans-Pacific Partnership.
I want to encourage the Government to start with If we do all of those things—it is a hard ask, but life is
trade, because all our ambitions are founded on a tough—my goodness, what a nation we will be, and we
strong economy. It is the promises in our manifesto on will completely defuse the great siren songs of despair
trade that we must keep first. We have said, for example: that we have heard from Opposition Members. I wish my
“We aim to have 80 per cent of UK trade covered by free trade right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench every
agreements within the next three years, starting with the USA, possible success, and I am sure that Conservative Members
Australia, New Zealand and Japan.” will do everything to ensure that this nation succeeds.
I take it, though it is not in the manifesto, that that
means acceding to the comprehensive and progressive 8.11 pm
agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, in order to do
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I think we should
those trade deals with Japan, Australia and New Zealand.
give credit where it is due, so I welcome the Government’s
I am excited about that prospect, because I think that
action on global health, particularly in addressing malaria
the United Kingdom, in emerging into this trading
and Ebola. The Government, campaigners in these
system, will be able to set a new standard for the world.
sectors and our own health sector deserve a thumbs up
It will be able to broaden that Pacific rim trade deal to
for this vital work. I think the Foreign Secretary was
be a new platform for the world, while doing important
right to emphasise these cross-party priorities today.
bilateral deals with the European Union and the USA.
I particularly want to encourage the Government to However, Blaenau Gwent needed three things in the
prioritise the United States of America. It is the biggest Queen’s Speech: a plan for good jobs, better transport
economy in the world. Only today, the US ambassador in our eastern valleys and action on public health.
and the Secretary of State for International Trade met, Unfortunately, the Queen’s Speech failed—failed—to
and they have been tweeting about what a successful deliver any of these. There is a Bill to protect pension
meeting it was. The United States shares our belief in schemes, and nearly 400,000 people have transferred
liberty—the freedom to succeed. It instinctively understands out of pension schemes since the Government brought
that progress comes through trial and error. That is why in what they called pension freedoms. But, at the same
we must reject regulatory harmonisation, because I am time, we have seen a significant increase in poor transfer
afraid that it is in regulators as much as it is in advice and pensions scams that are costing people £4 billion
entrepreneurial activity that mistakes are made. We do a year, so it is important that this legislation ensures
not want to be harmonised if we are going to make tough action against rogue financial advisers.
rapid progress for the benefit of all people, and especially There is so much potential in my constituency of
the poorest—the people who cannot game these enormous Blaenau Gwent. There are major firms such as Thales,
regulatory systems. which is setting up a new digital centre in Ebbw Vale.
I encourage the Government to immediately begin There are leading manufacturers such as Continental
negotiating with the United States of America on Teves, and excellent institutions such as Coleg Gwent,
3 February, the first working day we are out of the which is developing a cyber-security hub to train young
European Union. In doing so, we will break the myth people in this thriving sector. But we need the right
that we have to harmonise with one system or the other. support from the Government to help unlock this further.
Through mutual recognition and equivalence, we will That is why we need a proper industrial strategy to
be able to set out our own path. If we look at the United create good, well-paid jobs for the future, with commitments
States negotiating mandate, all it is asking us to do on like Labour’s pledge to build a new gigafactory producing
food, for example, as I understand it, is in effect to just electric car batteries in South Wales.
keep to our WTO obligations, which are science-led. Of Secondly, many people in Blaenau Gwent need reliable
course, we will have our own requirements in the UK public transport to access jobs in Cardiff. That is why
for what food we accept, but I am absolutely clear that we need prompt funding from the new shared prosperity
American food is good food. We will have concerns fund to improve the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff train line.
about animal welfare standards and costs of production, However, more than two and a half years since the fund
but we should be clear that we are behaving in the was promised, we still have only vague details of how
public interest and trying to raise the living standards of this will work and we have no real timeframe.
the poorest—indeed, to enable everyone to flourish— Finally, Blaenau Gwent has real public health challenges
through adopting, with the United States, a fundamental that need addressing. Locally, groups such as the Sole
belief in liberty under the rule of law. Sisters in Cwm and Parc Bryn Bach running club in
That is the fundamental thing we need to believe in as Tredegar have really stepped up and are doing incredible
we leave the EU: boldly rediscovering our sense of work to help people improve their mental and physical
self-government, our sense of liberty and our sense of health. But at a UK level, we still do not have, for
service to other people, while championing justice around example, a junk food advertising ban. As recent work
the world, as Palmerston said—not becoming some by Richard Layard has shown, improving people’s mental
Quixote tilting at windmills, but standing up for our health and wellbeing can save billions of pounds.
values in a way that we can all be proud of. I want to We need to celebrate excellent community groups
urge on the Government boldness, not timidity—no and reinforce the work that they do by putting effective
longer focusing in that Eurocentric way on the EU and policies in place, so when it came to what Blaenau
no longer being subordinate to the idea that whatever Gwent needed, what we got was a disappointment—
829 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 830

[Nick Smith] says exactly where we as a nation have always been and
must continue to be. In passing the withdrawal agreement
reheated announcements and half-baked proposals, dressed Bill, this House has already delivered on our promise to
up with some warm words. The Queen’s Speech Blaenau get Brexit done, and we will be leaving the European
Gwent actually needed was a Labour programme, such Union in less than three weeks’ time. The British people
as investing £250 billion in infrastructure to create jobs understood that the world is much more than Europe,
and strong action on public health. The election is over, and our future must be global rather than tied to a
but this Queen’s Speech has confirmed that Blaenau Gwent political union that is essentially representing the interests
and our country need a Labour Government now more of Germany and France. Britain’s role in the world has
than ever, and I will continue to fight for this. been and always will be much greater than that of a
continental power. Britain is a country with a global
8.14 pm history and global connections, and once we leave the
EU on 31 January, we can once again play an independent
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Mr Deputy Speaker,
role in foreign affairs on the world stage.
it is wonderful to see you back in the Chair. We are all
thrilled to have you back in your rightful position. We must have a post-Brexit foreign policy that takes
into account Britain’s unique history, as well as its
I would like to commend all those who have made
present reality and future aims. We must not allow
their maiden speeches today, particularly the ones I
questions over the future relationship with Europe to
have just heard from my new hon. Friends the Members
dominate foreign policy thinking over this entire Parliament.
for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan) and for Rutland
The key areas of focus must be a new free trade agreement
and Melton (Alicia Kearns). They have both left the
with both Europe and the United States of America, as
Chamber, but in their absence I would like to commend
many of my hon. Friends have pointed out, and there
them for their passion for their constituencies, but also
must be a renewed focus on the Commonwealth, most
for their patriotism for their country. That is why we are
especially Canada, Australia and New Zealand, with
here—because we love our country and believe in what
whom we must forge a much closer relationship with
is right for Britain. That is why we are here to stand up
the aim of creating a new CANZUK alliance. The
for our country.
CANZUK nations share so much in common, tied
Today, I can say with great pride that the British together by language, a common heritage, the same
people can be confident that Her Majesty’s Government common-law legal system, a love of freedom, democracy,
and this House will now uphold the democratic instruction human rights and the rule of law, which began in 1215
they were given on 23 June 2016 to take the United with Magna Carta, and by sharing Her Majesty the
Kingdom out of the European Union, along with all of Queen as our sovereign. That is not the case for the
its political entanglements. Once again, we can stand United States of America of course, but from speaking
tall in the world, knowing the future destiny of our to many Americans, as I do, Mr Deputy Speaker—and
island nation is now back in the hands of the British you will know this only too well—one might be forgiven
people themselves. No longer will we be a supplicant to for thinking that our Queen is as much their Queen too;
a higher European authority, with our freedom and Americans seem to love and adore the British royal
right of self-government being restored as a truly sovereign family, so I think we can share them with the United
and independent nation. States if it would like to do so.
As you will know, Mr Deputy Speaker, the British
people have a deep attachment to and a love for the Sir John Hayes: My hon. Friend is making a bold and
basic concept of freedom. We have always been a free confident case for our relationship with the Queen’s
people; our forebears fought for and defended that over realm, and I wonder if, in the spirit of Joseph Chamberlain,
many centuries. Those who believed that it did not he might recommend to the Government some preferential
matter and that the people would not notice if our trading arrangements with those countries of the realm;
freedom was traded away underestimated the lion-hearted it seems to me that that would be a way of cementing
spirit of the British people. This Gracious Speech lays our economic ties and complementing our political
the foundations for, I believe, a brighter future, with our ones.
nation led by a Prime Minster who truly believes in this
country and will stop at nothing to see us succeed and Andrew Rosindell: My right hon. Friend interjected at
play an ever increasing role in the wider world. just the right point, because I was about to talk about
Yes, Britain is back: back as a global free trading the importance of trade and co-operation with all of
nation, with an independent trade policy, making new Her Majesty’s realms, of which there are 15 apart from
alliances and renewing those that we have neglected the United Kingdom, but he will also not be surprised
over the mistaken period of political union with Europe; to hear me referring to the 21 cherished British overseas
back on the international stage, taking our place in territories and Crown dependencies, which are part of
global organisations, speaking up for British interests our wider British family in what I would describe as an
and co-operating with our wider Commonwealth family all-encompassing Britannic Kingdom; from the Falkland
of nations; and back as a force for good in the world, Islands to the Isle of Man, from Bermuda to the Pitcairn
with the most professional armed forces and security Islands, the British family stretches far and wide and all
services of any nation, while at the same time providing are part of our global family which we must defend and
support for the poorer nations of the world and those in cherish, and include in any future free trade agreements.
need of relief from natural disaster, as well as promoting Over the coming years, our nation, our Government
democracy, the rule of law and good governance. and our people must work tirelessly to bring about this
We have a proud history, but our island story continues, transformation, putting Britain back where we belong,
with greater things to come as we regain our place in the as a global free-trading nation, to create the wealth and
world. The title of this debate, “Britain in the World”, prosperity we need to make our nation stronger and to
831 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 832

give our people the best chances and opportunities for But our foreign policy has to look beyond Europe.
the future. Getting this right will not be plain sailing—we Though anchored to Europe by geography, Britain is
understand that—but with ambition, determination and unbounded in its global ambition, and we must engage
the kind of leadership demonstrated by my right hon. our friends on a global scale. And what better way to
Friend the Prime Minister we will be able to revitalise develop global connections than by rebuilding our long-
our foreign policy and put the UK firmly back on the neglected ties with the Commonwealth, a diverse worldwide
world stage. network of 53 countries, which together make up a
That is a far cry from the days when British embassies third of the earth’s population. Our exit from the EU
were being shut down across the world—I remember means that we can take full advantage of the economic
that in the 1990s and during the period of Mr Blair’s opportunities of the Commonwealth. We can have our
premiership—only to be replaced by EU external action own independent trade policy and strike trade deals
missions, and when British Foreign Secretaries stopped across the globe without being limited by the lengthy
visiting our closest friends like Australia and New Zealand, process of EU ratification. We can strike bilateral trade
and when the Commonwealth was sidelined by the then deals based on mutual benefit without handing over
Government. And—I make no apologies for referring political powers which no proud sovereign nation should
to this—in that period our overseas territories were ever do.
shamefully treated as bargaining chips in EU negotiations, Defence and security, the protection of our global
as happened with the Labour Government’s attempted environment and wildlife, climate change, tax evasion
joint sovereignty proposals over Gibraltar with Madrid and immigration are all areas where Britain should take
in 2002. What a shameful action and betrayal of the an active role in the Commonwealth and work together
people of Gibraltar that was; what a sad period that with our historical allies to form dynamic arrangements
was for British foreign policy. It felt like we were in fit for the modern world.
retreat—well, not anymore. As Britain exits the archaic protectionist structures of
Our Prime Minister, just like his magnificent and the European Union, it must once again reclaim its
courageous predecessor Margaret Thatcher, will reinvigorate place as a global leader for free trade. Britain used to
our international relations and Britain’s standing in the account for more than half the world’s trade and free
world. After three years of muddle caused by a Parliament trade is in our blood. We must make the development
that refused to accept the democratic will of the nation, of free trade networks a British Government priority
not before time we now have the leadership we need to once again, and I believe that under this Government
take Britain forward. we will.
Britain is a great nation—a founding member of the Britain also retains huge soft power and influence
UN and a permanent member of the Security Council. across the globe, which we can use to our advantage.
We are the sixth largest economy in the world. We are a The English language is the language of the world, and
leading member of NATO and the Five Eyes security our historic institutions, such as the monarchy and our
alliance, plus a range of other organisations, which I parliamentary democracy, are universally recognised.
will not refer to now. Those who have sought to downplay The emerging markets in Latin America, the far east
Britain over the past few years were on the wrong side and Africa are places where Britain must be in the
of history, and today we must all—yes, all of us—be future. As one of the Prime Minister’s trade envoys
proud to support a confident, independent foreign policy representing the UK to Tanzania, I believe that these
that reflects Britain’s true place in the world. are vast markets that we can develop in the years ahead
as we leave, rightly, the EU customs union. Those
Our Prime Minister has already shown us just how
markets of the future present massive opportunities for
much can be achieved if we demonstrate self-belief and
British businesses to export goods and services, as well
confidence; as we approach the next stage of negotiating
as the potential for lower prices for all our constituents
a free trade agreement with the EU we must have a clear
and consumers across Britain. We must ensure that our
and unflinching vision, and tough negotiators who will
new trade policy takes full advantage of the opportunities
not crumble at the first hint of dissent from Brussels.
presented by Brexit, and that we get on with negotiating
That vision should look like a comprehensive free trade
and striking new free trade agreements as quickly as
agreement, which ensures that Britain maintains its
possible, perhaps starting with the USA on 1 February.
close economic relationship while never preventing us
from diverging if we choose to do so. And leaving the We are now in a post-Brexit age. The title of this debate,
EU must mean that we are completely free: the EU “Britain in the World”, serves as an effective reminder
tentacles must be cut away fully so that we can make that Britain is now no longer just in Europe, but part of
our own way in the world once again. a much wider global community. We must refocus how
we think and act, to benefit from all the advantages of
At the end of the day, we must all be prepared to walk our new-found independence. That means our foreign
away if, as happened before, the EU treat us not as an policy must be about far more than our relationship
equal partner but as a supplicant; otherwise, as the last with Europe. We must set out a truly global foreign
three years have shown, the EU will try to land us with a policy from this day forth, with the Commonwealth
poor agreement or a bad deal, and nobody is willing to and global free trade at its heart, underpinned by friendly
accept that now, least of all the British people, who co-operation between independent sovereign nations.
voted overwhelmingly to get Brexit done and take Britain The British people will expect nothing less.
forward in a new direction. By taking a confident
approach, setting out clear proposals and keeping the
threat of no deal on the table, I believe our Prime 8.30 pm
Minister will secure a free trade agreement which will Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
benefit both the United Kingdom and retain friendly (Con): It is during debates like this that I am sure
co-operation with the nations of Europe. everybody across the House feels a great sense of pride
833 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 834

[Andrew Bowie] supportive of the decision in 2018 to authorise the RAF

to participate in co-ordinated targeted strikes, along
in our country, our island nation, our United Kingdom with our French and American allies, to degrade the
of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland: Syrian regime’s chemical weapons capability and deter
open and internationalist but of course united, in which their further use in the conflict. We are one of very few
Scotland, of course, has played its full part and will do, countries in the world capable of taking such action.
I predict, for many, many years to come. Together we That we did so was important not only because it sent a
can achieve much more than we could apart; together as signal that we would not stand idly by as chemical
one nation, together with our allies and partners around weapons were used on innocent civilians, but because it
the globe. signalled our intent to remain and our determination to
Today, we have heard some excellent maiden speeches. retain a globally deployable, flexible military, working
I was reminded by the right hon. Member for Islington with our allies to defend our values and interests across
South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), the shadow the globe.
Foreign Secretary who is sadly not in her place, that the Stewart Malcolm McDonald: I want to take the hon.
foreign affairs day of the 2017 Queen’s Speech debate Gentleman back to that discussion because, if he
was the day that the now Prime Minister was responding remembers, the thrust of the reason why we opposed
as Foreign Secretary. I remember it well, as that was the the action at the time was that it was, in and of itself, a
day that I gave my maiden speech. I am sure it lives long reaction. It was not underpinned by any long-term
in the memory, especially for the hon. Member for plan, of which there has still been none forthcoming
Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald). I therefore from the Government or elsewhere. Does he lament
had to take issue with some of what the right hon. Lady that, as I do, and does he think that it is time that we
said and remember the prescience of some of the then had, essentially, a modern-day Marshall plan to resolve
Foreign Secretary’s predictions. I believe it was on that the conflict in Syria?
evening that the now Prime Minister predicted that this
country would be leaving the European Union with a Andrew Bowie: I lament that so many thousands of
deal. And so on one of the biggest foreign affairs issues Syrians have lost their lives in a pointless and needless
of our time, the Prime Minister predicted exactly correctly. conflict, in which we should have intervened many,
many years ago when we had the chance to make a
Stewart Malcolm McDonald: He was two years out! difference in the region. I lament the lack of a long-term
strategy in the west for dealing with what is going on in
Andrew Bowie: He may have been two years out, but Syria, but, contrary to what the hon. Gentleman said, I
we got there eventually. am also very proud of the action that our pilots and the
The United Kingdom is a permanent member of the Royal Air Force have taken alongside allies to deter
UN Security Council, a founder member of NATO, a Bashar al-Assad from using such heinous weapons against
member of the Commonwealth and is the EU’s closest his people—innocent civilians who have been caught up
friend and ally. No one country is better positioned to in this conflict.
influence the world for the better than the United Bob Seely: I know that we have said this before, but
Kingdom. We have a proud history in this regard. As we will my hon. Friend pay tribute to the work of James Le
leave the European Union, we have the opportunity to Mesurier, the western head of the White Helmets, who
mould a new, ambitious and long-term foreign policy died recently? James was an acquaintance; his wife
with a moral compass and direction. I use the phrase Emma was a good friend of mine. They had a wonderful
“moral compass” because I believe that more than any wedding a few years ago in Turkey that I was privileged
other country Britain has a record to be proud of in to attend, and I am so sorry that he died a few months
terms of using its influence overseas and its clout for ago.
good. The Government’s 2017 humanitarian reform
policy was designed to uphold the UK’s commitment to Andrew Bowie: I am very glad to associate myself
international humanitarian refugee and human rights with my hon. Friend’s words. I am sure that everybody
law, and the principles of humanity, neutrality, impartiality in the House laments the passing of James Le Mesurier.
and independence. The Government’s conflict stability He will be greatly missed not just for what he achieved
and security fund also facilitates Whitehall Departments in Syria, but for what he demonstrated to the rest of the
to work together on national security priorities such as world was possible through the work of the White
helping to train and equip the Syria civil defence, known Helmets in that area, and around the world.
as the White Helmets, to carry out humanitarian operations I am pleased that the Government have committed to
during the Syrian civil war. The Government estimate spending the NATO minimum of 2% of GDP on
that that has saved more than 85,000 lives during that defence. I am also pleased that we are committed to
bloody conflict. renewing our nuclear deterrent—our ultimate safety
The UK is one of only six countries to meet its net—and I am proud of its being based in Scotland. I
OECD commitment to spending 0.7% of its gross national am delighted that the Scottish-built carriers, HMS Queen
income on international aid and it was the first of the Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, are both in the
G7 countries to meet that commitment. I believe our hands of the Royal Navy, and that we now have operational
development budget, especially during international F-35s capable of being deployed on them. The Type 26
humanitarian crises, is a crucial part of securing Britain’s and Type 31e programmes, also being built in Scotland,
place in the world and building a truly global Britain. are encouraging and exciting, but it was only two years
However, there are occasions where aid spending and ago that the Royal Navy was nearly stripped of its
non-military humanitarian assistance are simply not amphibious assault capability, which was retained solely
enough to defend human rights and prevent morally through the hard work and vocal interventions of Members
intolerable levels of suffering. That is why I was so of the House.
835 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 836

Rumours still swirl that one of our two new aircraft My constituency is one of great religious adherence:
carriers might be mothballed or even sold to save money. 75% of the population at the last census said that
We simply do not have enough ships on our own to religion was an important part of their lives, as against
safely protect these two amazing assets if they are both the UK average of 25%. I have 24 churches, including
at the sea at the same time while carrying out other vital the only Greek Orthodox church built in this country
jobs that are required of a globally deployable Navy. for 100 years; three synagogues; two Jain temples and
That leads to a manpower problem, with fewer sailors one more being assembled; I have a Buddhist centre
being expected to do more, and then, of course, there is across the road; a Sikh centre across the road; an
the retention problem that we have at present in the Islamic centre; and a Sri Lankan mosque. I can truly
senior service. Defence is expensive. A navy is expensive—of say that we have representatives from every country in
that there is no doubt. There is also no doubt that there the world and every religion on the planet and that
are pressures on the Treasury, but it is essential that we every language under the sun is spoken in my constituency.
get defence right and that we spend appropriately on it. Naturally, then, I have to be involved in a every single
In 1963, the arguments of President de Gaulle, who is area of world policy, which is one reason why I was keen
not often quoted in this place, for vetoing British to speak in this debate.
membership of the European Union were based on the As we leave the EU and set out our stall as a world
fact that we were a maritime trading nation. That has player, it is important that we remember and unite not
not changed: 95% of all imports to this country come only with the United States—that has been mentioned—but
by sea. Our reliance on freedom of navigation and open with our Commonwealth partners in Canada, Australia
seas has not changed and, if anything, it is increasing. and New Zealand. One thing that has struck me as I
The importance of the Strait of Hormuz was thrust have gone around the world either on holiday or on
into the limelight only last August with the taking of trips, is that the people of New Zealand, Canada and
the Stena Impero by an increasingly belligerent Iran. It Australia all say the same thing: “Why did you turn
is a fact that 35% of the world’s seaborne oil shipments your backs on us and become Eurocentric?” We now
and 20% of the oil traded worldwide pass through the need to look outwards—not pull up the drawbridge but
narrow straits between Oman and Iran. Our ability to look internationally and reunite with those countries.
deploy royal naval assets in the form of two Type 23s to Today, however, I want to concentrate more on the
protect British shipping in the region is welcome, but it new Commonwealth—namely our relations with India
is a timely reminder to everyone that we cannot afford and other countries on the Indian subcontinent. Already,
to become sea-blind—that it remains, as is etched across even before trying to do a trade deal with India, India is
the front of Britannia Royal Naval College, “upon the the third-biggest investor in the UK and we are the
Navy” that third-biggest in India, so we start from a strong base.
“the safety, honour, and welfare of this realm do chiefly depend”. India has been trying to do a trade deal with the EU for
I know that the Government get it and I hope that we more than 22 years, without success, so I hope that the
will see a commitment in the months and years ahead to Department for International Trade will take up the
maintaining a Royal Navy of a size and flexibility that opportunity to increase trade and investment with India
will defend our interests and those of our allies, continue very quickly. I was delighted when the Prime Minister
to protect freedom of navigation on the high seas and confirmed that we would not get involved in matters
provide humanitarian relief to crisis-struck regions across sovereign to India, so when we talk about Jammu and
the world. For what better example and what greater Kashmir, we must understand that it is a matter of
demonstration is there of this country’s commitment to internal affairs for India—and actually the illegal occupation
humanitarianism, internationalism, free trade and the of Kashmir by Pakistan should end immediately, in
rule of law than a strong, globally deployable and my view.
flexible Royal Navy? We also need to encourage students from India to
come to this country to be educated and then to return
8.39 pm to India so that we enhance our understanding and
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): It is a pleasure to capability across the world. Far too often now, Indian
follow my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire students would prefer to go to the United States, Australia
and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie)—the true voice of or other parts of the world. The UK is no longer their
Scotland in this House. No. 1 choice. We need to restore that position straightaway.
This is the first time I have had the opportunity to In our manifesto, we mentioned three places in the
address the House since the general election, and I world where conflict needed to be dealt with. In Sri Lanka
would like to thank the people of Harrow East for still, many years after the bloody civil war ended, those
electing me for the fourth time, once again with an in power are alleged to have committed war crimes. It is
increased vote share—this time 54.4%—and a majority time that we called those people out and called them to
of 8,170, which in London terms is quite a windfall, I account, so that peace and tranquillity can be restored
can assure hon. Members. The election result was very to that country and all the peoples of Sri Lanka can live
clear. In my constituency, the 2016 referendum result in peace and harmony.
was 50:50 between leave and remain, but the people of We must also mention the plight of the Rohingya,
Harrow East split into three portions. The Brexiteers which I do not believe has been referred to in this
said, “Why haven’t you delivered it?” The people who evening’s debate so far. In Bangladesh, there are 1.5 million
voted remain said, “We don’t want it”, but most of Rohingya refugees, whose living conditions are not so
them said, “We accept the democratic will of the people— dreadful now, because the people of Bangladesh have
get on and deliver it”. I promised that if we got a helped them. We must do our bit, through our international
working majority I would support the Government to aid budget, to ease the plight of the Rohingya and
deliver on Brexit, and I am delighted that just last week enable them to return home to Myanmar safely and
we delivered on the first measure in the Gracious Speech. securely.
837 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 838

[Bob Blackman] homelessness to get help, so that they were not forced to
sleep rough. Far too many people are still forced to
We also mentioned Cyprus, another country divided, sleep rough on our streets, and that is a national scandal
this time by an illegal invasion by Turkey. It is time that that we must resolve.
we took to the international stage and demanded that I look forward to the abolition of the Vagrancy Act,
those differences be resolved and Cyprus be reunited as which has existed since 1824. It is time we removed it
one country. We have a specific interest in Cyprus from the statute book and replaced it with proper
because of our long history there and because of our provisions to help people to put a roof over their heads,
airbases, which are important to the security of this country. rather than arresting those people and putting them in
I turn to our relations with Israel, which has the prison cells just because they have nowhere to live. I will
10th biggest economy in the world and some superb push strongly for Housing First to become a policy to
science, and where we have opportunities for even greater help homeless people put that roof over their heads, but
trade. I am delighted that we will ensure that local also to give them a level of support and ensure that,
authorities attempting to boycott Israel will be denied under the Homelessness Reduction Act, if local authorities
the right to do so. It is absolutely wrong that public are failing to do their duty, we use the statutory means
bodies should attempt, in some shape or form, to boycott to force them to do so. We put that in the Act quite
democracies, particularly the only true democracy in deliberately—I see that my hon. Friend the Member for
the middle east. It is in our long-term security interests Nuneaton (Mr Jones), who was a Minister at the time, is
to form a security alliance not only with the United sitting on the Front Bench—and I think that it may be
States, Canada and Australia, but with India, Israel and time for the Secretary of State to consider imposing
France, so that we can secure the free world. those measures on local authorities that have failed to
carry out their duty.
Mr Steve Baker: My hon. Friend is making a powerful Let me end by congratulating you, Mr Deputy Speaker,
case, but I cannot help wondering whether, in calling for on being elected to the Chair. As for those who are
that alliance, he wants to use the United Nations. If he making their maiden speeches, let me tell them about
does, how does he reconcile the United Nations resolutions the occasion on which I made my own maiden speech.
relating to Kashmir with what he said earlier about On the first day I sat through the whole debate, only to
Kashmir? be told at 9.30 pm, “Very sorry, but time has run out
and you cannot make your speech.” On the second day
Bob Blackman: My hon. Friend and I have shared I sat through the debate again, only to be told, “Sorry,
platforms before on this issue. I look forward to the but you cannot make your maiden speech.” Only on the
United Nations resolutions on Jammu and Kashmir third day did I manage to do so, by which time the
being observed to the letter, and the first resolution subject of the debate had moved on to some area of
said that Pakistan should end its illegal occupation of Home Office policy. I had thrown away my original
Kashmir. Once that is done, we can look forward to the speech, so I made my maiden speech without notes. I
demilitarisation of Jammu and Kashmir and the restoration subsequently received a complimentary message from
of security for the entirety of that great princely state. the Prime Minister, saying, “What an excellent maiden
speech, all made without any notes!” Little did he know
I want to mention a couple of other things while I am
the reason why there were no notes. Anyway, I congratulate
on my feet. We have discussed Iran today in an urgent
those who have made their maiden speeches, and also
question, but it is quite clear that we should be supporting
those who will make theirs over the next few days.
the National Council of Resistance of Iran, in order to
lead to regime change in Iran, and we should see the
restoration of Maryam Rajavi as the President of Iran. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): A maiden speech
I was at university when the Shah of Iran fled and the —Rob Roberts.
new regime came in. I remember that there was lots of
optimism, but now the suppression of human rights 8.52 pm
and the export of terrorism across the world by the Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps has to be called to Speaker. It is a pleasure and an honour to follow such a
account. We need to see regime change and people distinguished and well-respected parliamentarian as the
given the opportunity to restore the previous position. hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) in
Finally, on some domestic issues, I am disappointed making my first contribution in the House.
to see no mention in the Gracious Speech of removing Let me begin by paying tribute to those who have
caste as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act 2010. gone before me in making their maiden speeches: the
Its inclusion is unnecessary, divisive and ill-informed. hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper), who I
The measure was introduced under the last Labour thought was outstanding, my hon. Friends the Members
Government, and we have made various promises, at for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond), for Stafford (Theo
various times, to remove it. Now we have a majority in Clarke) and for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan), and
this House, we should take that opportunity. This measure my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton
affects people from the Indian subcontinent regardless (Alicia Kearns), whose constituency apparently does a
of their religion, and it has been very divisive. We have good line in pies. Let me also briefly congratulate the
had the consultation; it is now time to remove it. hon. Member for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm
We also need to think about a number of housing McDonald) on his impending award from Ukraine,
and community issues. Getting the Homelessness Reduction which I am sure is well deserved.
Act 2017 on to the statute book was one of my proudest The theme of today’s debate is Britain’s place in the
moments as a Member of Parliament. The Act enabled world. Notwithstanding the doom and gloom that we
tens of thousands of people who were threatened with heard from the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart
839 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 840

Hosie)—who, unfortunately, has left the Chamber— I can honestly say that David’s departure from this
Britain’s place is assuredly more exciting, more prosperous place was not in any way down to any shortcoming on
and more forward-looking than it has been for a generation. his part. On the doorstep during the campaign, I heard
Last Thursday, the European Union (Withdrawal the same three messages over and over. The first was
Agreement) Bill passed through this House, and made that we should get Brexit done, and we are making
its way down the corridor to the other place as the next progress on that. The second was, “I’ve voted Labour
step in the process to respect the democratic mandate of all my life but never again, and certainly not with the
the British people, not only in the 2016 referendum but current leadership.” I heard that a lot, and on that
in last month’s election. point, I am a big believer that strong government requires
However, having thought briefly about Britain’s place a strong Opposition, so I would urge Labour Members
in the world, I have thought a little more widely about to pay heed to that particular point. The third point
Wales’s place in Britain. It may have escaped your was, “David Hanson has been an excellent constituency
attention, Mr Deputy Speaker. but there are one or two MP.” People said it over and over again, and I can only
more Welsh Conservative Members here than there hope that I am able, over time, to gain the same respect
were before. We have come a long way since the days of from my constituents that he had. I will certainly be
Owain Glyndŵr, when we used to burn down the houses giving it my best efforts. I am sure that every Member
of the English to drive them out of our fair country. In across the House will wish him every success in whatever
the 1390s, it was said that the Welsh were revolting! I he finds himself doing in the next chapter of his life.
have never heard such a thing. There is no chance of I read through David’s maiden speech from 27 years
that description now. Apart from, potentially, my hon. ago, and it was a very interesting read. I picked up a
Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Craig Williams), couple of points. Most significant was the support that
we will never be described as revolting again. We are a he received from his family during the process, and it is
happy and cheerful bunch of Welsh MPs, who are important to mention that I feel exactly the same way,
committed wholeheartedly to Wales and its rightful despite my 15-year-old daughter being horrified when
place in a strong, prosperous and, above all, unified her school friends kept saying, “Your dad’s face is
United Kingdom. everywhere!” That was a huge embarrassment. She was
In this maiden speech, I thought it might be helpful mortified, so I consider that my work as a parent is
to point out for colleagues some of the features of done. I am sure I can speak for everyone across the
Delyn, which was constructed as a parliamentary House when I say that it would be significantly more
constituency in 1983 and represented in this place by a difficult for us all to be in this place without supportive
Conservative, Mr Keith Raffan. He supported the attempt husbands, wives and partners. I pay tribute not only to
to oust Mrs Thatcher by Anthony Meyer in 1989 and, mine but to all those who allow us the freedom to come
indeed, the one by Lord Heseltine the following year. It to this magical place to try to improve the lives of our
is important to point out for the benefit of my right constituents. We are forever in their debt.
hon. Friend the Prime Minister and those on the Front It is also interesting to note that in his maiden speech,
Bench that it will not be the policy of Delyn Conservative David made reference to improvements that were required
MPs to attempt to overthrow their leader. That having to the railway lines that run through my constituency.
been said, it might have been welcome if my immediate Such improvements are still needed 27 years down the
predecessor had done us all a favour and attempted to line. I will be looking closely at the current situation in
overthrow his. Delyn and seeking meetings with the relevant Ministers
to see what we can do to improve the infrastructure and
Speaking of my immediate predecessor, I must turn boost the local economy, as well as lobbying for our
now to the right hon. David Hanson. As I have spoken share of the love with the Beeching project.
to new colleagues in this place, the amount of people
who have said the same things has been notable. They Later on in his speech, David described how there
have expressed surprise at my being here in the first were six Conservative MPs across the whole of Wales.
place, which I have not taken in a bad way, or as a slight What a difference three decades makes! Finally, the
on my abilities. It is more about the respect and admiration people of Wales are coming around to the realisation
that people across the House had for David. It has been that if they want to effect real change for the better in
an interesting path. I have heard many people on these their lives, if they want to be empowered, uplifted and
Benches tell me about the difficult times they had thrive in society, this is the party for them. I urge
during the election and the animosity that was on everyone across my beautiful homeland to remember
display during the campaign, but I can honestly say that that when the elections for the Senedd take place next
David Hanson conducted himself with the utmost respect May. The Conservatives are the true party of the workers
and integrity throughout the whole process. I take my and, indeed, the party best placed to look after Wales’s
hat off to him. interests.
Everyone on both sides of the House keeps telling me When Mr Hanson’s speech concluded, he was followed
that David was one of our best. I bumped into the hon. by a sprightly young fellow who at the time was the
Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) just Member of Parliament for Basildon. I looked very hard
before Christmas. She very kindly held open a door for through his speech, but I could find no mention at all by
me, and when I explained who I was, she was very the now hon. Member for Southend West (Sir David
welcoming. When I said that I was from Delyn, she Amess) of Basildon being made a city. Basildon’s loss
said, “Oh, I liked David. He was one of our best.” I felt has undoubtedly been Southend’s gain.
compelled to apologise, but she said, “No, not at all. It’s To return to the present day, Delyn is made of the
just politics. We all understand the risks.” Exactly the three main towns of Flint, Holywell and my hometown
same words were used by David on that night one of Mold, along with more than 30 villages in a mainly
month ago. rural society. Farming therefore plays a key part in
841 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 842

[Rob Roberts] being little England or a small island nation, but global
Britain. That is very much where the great strength of
constituency life, and I look forward to working with our history has been and where our strength and future
the local farming community to help them to continue prosperity lie.
to provide the lifeblood of our economic and, indeed, This country has unique global links—more than any
nutritional needs. other nation on earth. Our history with the Commonwealth,
We also have significant factories and light industry which has been referenced many times in this debate, is
locally, particularly Airbus, Kimberly-Clark and Kingspan. part of that, but there is also the strength of the English
Some 1,500 of my constituents are employed by Airbus language around the world, the strength of our common
in the neighbouring constituency of Alyn and Deeside. law system, and the respect in which this country is
I look forward to working with it and other local held. All that puts us in a good position for the future.
organisations to make sure that Delyn is able to take We can use our unique global links to be a conduit or
full advantage of our excellent north Wales growth deal bridge, given our proximity to continental Europe.
and the northern powerhouse plan being undertaken by Right hon. and hon. Members have mentioned the
my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Northern importance of future trade agreements not only with
Powerhouse and Local Growth. I put him on notice the European Union, but with the United States, Australia,
that a growing number of Welsh MPs will be beating a Canada, New Zealand, the rest of the Commonwealth
path to his door to make sure that our needs are and other nations. As an island trading nation, we rely
properly looked after. on global transportation, and we are the world’s second
I could not be prouder to represent my home. I have aviation power behind the United States. I therefore
lived there all my life. I attended school at Ysgol Maes want to make an early bid for a reduction in air passenger
Garmon in Mold, where I was proud to become the first duty at the Budget. This country charges the highest air
person in my family to learn Welsh, a skill that I hold as passenger duty of any major developed nation. Only
one of my most valuable assets. Mi fyddaf felly yn Chad charges more, and many of our European competitors
gwneud cymaint ag y medraf i gynrychioli pobl Delyn do not charge any at all. We need to address that as we
hyd eithaf fy ngallu. Mae eu problemau nhw yr un fath look to trade globally.
â fy mhroblemau i. Dwi’n caru’r lle, a fy ngobaith
In the previous Parliament, I was proud to be a
mwyaf ydy bod fy ymdrechion yn ddigon i adael marc
member of the Select Committee on International
ac i wneud bywydau pobl Delyn yn well. I will do
Development and, again, there have been many comments
everything in my power to represent the people of
about our commitment to give 0.7% of gross national
Delyn to the very best of my ability, because I am one of
income in aid. However, we need to use that international
them. Their issues are my issues. I love the place dearly,
aid budget in a much smarter way not only to respond,
and it is my abiding hope that my efforts are enough to
as rightly we should as a responsible nation, to natural
make a mark, to make life better for the constituents of
disasters, to deal with the consequences of conflicts
Delyn and, through that work, to bring people together
around the world and to help the poorest and most
as we move forward to the next phase of our national
marginalised, but in the interests of ensuring that Britain’s
story, as we truly do define Britain’s deserved place in
influence around the world is increased in security,
the world.
trade and this country’s clear commitment to playing
our part in addressing climate change. I again pay
9.2 pm tribute to the Conservative Government for ensuring
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): It is wonderful to see that we are the first major world economy to commit to
you deservedly back in your place, Mr Deputy Speaker. net zero carbon emissions by 2050. We should firmly
May I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for promote that commitment.
Delyn (Rob Roberts) for his excellent maiden speech? I My hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew
am afraid that my Welsh ancestors would view me very Rosindell) mentioned the British overseas territories.
dimly for not being able to respond in Welsh, but I will All too often in our recent history, as he correctly
try harder in future. May I also pay tribute to all hon. pointed out, they have been an afterthought or even
Members who have made their maiden speeches today? forgotten. It is important that that British family, as he
They have given us a tour de force on the constituencies correctly termed those overseas territories, have respect
of this great United Kingdom, and it fills me with great paid to them. They are loyal to this country, and they
joy to hear newly elected Members speak so passionately deserve proper attention. Specifically on the Chagos
about their communities in this wonderful House of Islands, part of the British Indian Ocean Territory, my
Commons. constituency has perhaps the largest population of
It is important that the main debate on the Queen’s Chagossians anywhere in the world. They were appallingly
Speech starts with Britain’s place in the world, because exiled from their homeland by the Harold Wilson
we are at a pivotal moment in our national history. Administration in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and I
Three and a half years ago the people of this country believe that they should have a right of return. However,
voted, clearly and very decisively in my constituency, to it is clear that in February 2019 the International Court
leave the European Union, and I was appalled by the of Justice came to a judgment that the islands should be
previous Parliament’s attempts to frustrate that democratic handed to Mauritius, and I think we should reject that.
decision. Two general elections later, we now have a The majority of Chagos islanders—certainly the ones I
decisive majority. The British people had to express know and speak of—despite their treatment by this
themselves three times over before the political establishment country, cherish the support of British sovereignty, and
finally got the message that they want us to leave the I do not think we should pay heed to that judgment. It
European Union. That throws into sharp relief the is quite clear to me that the Chagos islanders are
importance of our looking outwards into the world—not British.
843 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 844

Andrew Rosindell: I thank my hon. Friend for everything It has been my great pleasure, as it has been yours,
he is saying about the Chagossians and for his incredible Mr Deputy Speaker, to be a delegate to the Council of
work on the all-party parliamentary group on the Chagos Europe for many years. It has 47 member states, which
Islands. If we, as a Government, uphold the right to is almost twice as many as the EU. Yet what do we do
self-determination for Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands with it? I shall tell the House a bit about what we do
and the British people of all British territories, why with it and why we should take it more seriously.
should the Chagossians be treated differently? In the debate on the EU withdrawal agreement, I
intervened to point out that the Council of Europe had
Henry Smith: My hon. Friend is entirely right about already agreed, and we had already signed up to, a
self-determination. As a democracy, we have been talking commitment to provide assistance for refugee children.
about our own self-determination to leave the European It is not that we have done nothing; we have provided
Union and how people were seeking to thwart it. As a assistance for refugee children. Most importantly—this
country, we believe in self-determination for ourselves was missing from the Dubs amendment and the subsequent
and for other people around the world. It is absolutely amendments—we have ensured that children who come
right that, just like every other British overseas territory, to countries are integrated into local societies in a way
the people of the Chagos Islands should be able to that previously they had not been. That is very important:
decide their own future, not an international court that there is no point in just bringing children over, dumping
seeks to pass and hand down judgments. The Chagos them in a location and expecting them to get on; they
islanders have been ignored for far too long, and my have to be helped to integrate into local societies.
hon. Friend is absolutely right that it is their territory
A big issue at the moment is climate change, on which
and that it is for them to decide their own future. If
the Council of Europe works on a grand scale throughout
given that choice, I think they will correctly choose to
the whole of Europe—and it does so on a cross-party
be part of the British family.
basis. It may come as a surprise to Conservative Members
In conclusion, because I know other hon. and right to hear that I have fully supported Lord Prescott in
hon. Members want to speak, I will mention our overseas putting forward his views on climate change. Do not
territories and the important role that Britain is playing forget that Lord Prescott—this point is often forgotten
and can play in promoting environmental sustainability. on the Opposition Benches—was instrumental in
Through our overseas territories, we are responsible for determining the accounting mechanism for emissions at
millions of square miles of ocean around the world. I the Kyoto summit all those years ago. We should not
commend this Conservative Government for the Blue forget that and the enormous role that he has played. It
Belt programme that we have initiated around many of annoys my constituents enormously when I point out
our British overseas territories. The programme plays that what I have been doing on climate change has been
an important role in marine conservation around the in Europe, but when they realise that it is for the whole
world. of Europe, they have to appreciate that what I do is in
That is Britain at its best: outward looking, ambitious, their interest.
free-trading, promoting liberty, promoting the environment There is a great ignorance of what the Council of
and promoting justice around the world, and doing so Europe does, and that applies both to Ministers and to
as a responsible global state. The best years of Britain the Opposition. I have tried to get set up a Joint
as a global nation are ahead of it, and I am grateful that Committee of both Houses to cover the Council of
is a key policy of this Government. Europe. Such a Committee could review what we are
doing and provide us with useful advice and guidance.
9.12 pm Sadly, that effort has not been successful so far, but I am
John Howell (Henley) (Con): I congratulate you on ever hopeful that we will be able to get a Committee up
your election, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a great pleasure and running. I stress that we should spend more time
to see you back in the Chair. You will recall that, last looking at and understanding what the Council of
night, you and I were at a dinner with my hon. Friend Europe does, particularly as we leave the EU, because it
the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) and that it came will become the principal way in which we will keep in
to be called the “APPG for London restaurants.” That is contact with parliamentarians across the whole of Europe
an appropriate title. in discussions that take place four times a year, plus
committee meetings in between. Those meetings are very
Rob Roberts: You’re the chair. valuable.
I wish to mention two other points, one of which is
John Howell: I thank my hon. Friend for making me Singapore. I went to Singapore in the summer, courtesy
the chair. Talking to him last night, we did not get even of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators—I should
the slightest hint of what an excellent maiden speech he declare an interest: I am an associate of the Chartered
was going to give. I thank him for entertaining us in a Institute of Arbitrators. I went there because everyone
very positive way and for giving an excellent maiden says that London is pre-eminent in the legal profession—
speech. London is the place where everyone goes to make sure
Throughout this debate, I have been increasingly that they can get their cases, whether civil or others,
perturbed by the Eurocentric comments from both heard—but that is absolute nonsense. Go to Singapore
sides of the House. Those Eurocentric comments have and see what they have done for their mediation and
been particularly focused on the European Union. I arbitration services. With the help of the Singapore
understand why people are focused on the European Government, they have very good rooms in which to
Union, as we are leaving, but there is a bigger Europe meet to carry forward mediations and arbitrations, and
out there. It is a Europe characterised by the Council of they have done one thing in particular that stands out
Europe, which is a non-EU body of which we will remain around the world, which is to introduce a new international
a member. Singapore convention that allows for awards in one
845 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 846

[John Howell] for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan), for Stafford (Theo
Clarke), the hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper),
country to be recognised by another country and to be my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts),
kept up in that country. We have still not signed that who made a superb and moving speech, my hon. Friend
convention. We need to do so as quickly as possible and the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns)
to play our part in it. In the meantime, we need to spend and anyone else whom I have failed to mention.
a lot more time here in the UK, looking at what the I am not commenting on anything to do with defence
future of alternative dispute resolution can achieve, and due to my role as a Parliamentary Private Secretary, but
we need to put the resources into it to ensure that it I would like to talk briefly on foreign affairs. The world
happens. is changing and we are changing. We are leaving the
Finally, let me briefly echo the points raised by my European Union in two weeks and we will be an
hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) independent state again. In recognition of that, the
on Israel. The UK is the second largest trade partner foreign affairs review has the potential to become highly
with Israel. We are a phenomenal trade partner with influential, and I am extremely grateful that the Government
that county. Let me just declare another interest as have had the foresight to announce this, as it is hugely
vice-chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel. I valuable.
will provide Members with an example of how this What is the state of the world that we are going to
could work to our own benefit. Immediately after the move into in about a fortnight’s time? Globally, although
election—the day after the election—I was on a plane conventional wars are in decline and much of humanity
to Israel to attend an event in Jerusalem. I went there enjoys more enriched lives than ever before, the world,
because I thought that it was the best antidote to in some senses, has become a more challenging place.
electioneering, even though Israel itself is just about to New forms of integrated conflict and competition are
go into its third general election in the space of a year. being developed by rivals and potential adversaries,
None the less, it was a very good place to visit. I went to about which my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland
the Israeli ambulance service. Everything there works and Melton spoke so eloquently—we have talked about
on the basis of an app that sends the appropriate this when we both had different jobs in a previous life.
ambulance to the scene—whether it be so large and so The international rules-based system is under threat
well stocked that an operation could take place in the and the battle for the 21st century, I think, is, in part,
back of it, or whether it be something more modest. A between open and closed societies that will shape the
person can press an app that immediately sends the future of humanity. I will come to Huawei in a short
details of what drugs they are taking, and what treatment while if I may.
they are going through to the ambulance service. When The following points are important. “Global Britain”
that ambulance arrives, the staff can begin treating implies a national global strategy to express the nation’s
them in an appropriate way that helps to save lives. That values and interests beyond our shores. My hon. Friend
sort of technology is available for us if we want to look the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat)
at it carefully. If we want to take it, scale it up and use it rightly said that our foreign policy needs to promote
across the UK, it has the potential to save a tremendous happiness and prosperity, but what does that mean
number of lives. and what would be in the detail? We need a national
Finally, let me say a few things on Nigeria. I am the strategy council to develop that national global strategy.
Prime Minister’s trade envoy to Nigeria. Our Serjeant- I believe that that should come out of the existing
at-Arms, who was here a moment ago, is part of the National Security Council, so we would have a Janus-like
Nigerian diaspora. Let us not forget that Africa provides organisation; the National Security Council would deal
us with an enormous opportunity for the future. It with reactive issues and problems, and the national
provides us with markets the size of which we do not yet strategy council would look five, 10 or 15 years ahead at
completely understand. By 2050, Nigeria will be the potential threats and opportunities. Out of that, we
third most populous country in the whole of the world. would need to produce a national global strategy, which
China and India will by vying for one and two, then it should be not cost driven, but—where reasonable—needs
will be Nigeria. Unless we get it right and unless we get driven. That point was eloquently made by my right hon.
the people to help themselves, to develop their own Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and
countries and to provide jobs for young people, we will my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (James
run into a tremendous amount of problems not just in Gray). The national global strategy should be based on
Africa, but in Europe as well. three freedoms that we have historically championed:
freedom to trade, freedom of thought and freedom from
9.22 pm oppression—the great things for which we have always
tried to stand.
Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): I believe that I am
the last speaker—last, but hopefully not least—and I On a more tactical level, we need much more joint
shall, out of respect for my colleagues, keep to within effects working across Government Departments—what,
the 10-minute limit. I wish to talk about foreign affairs in the Army, we might have called joint effects teams—to
and a little bit about Huawei. encourage integrated working. At embassy level, this should
include integrated line management. UK ambassadors
First of all, let me pay tribute to the many excellent and high commissioners should have line management
maiden speeches that we have heard tonight. The American of all their staff. There should be a single legal chain for
writer Gore Vidal is quoted as saying: decision making, and a common set of pay and conditions,
“Whenever a friend succeeds, a little something in me dies.” which there is not at the moment. That can cause
I have heard so many excellent speeches from new friction, especially because folks in the FCO, who are
Members this evening that I feel I am positively withering hugely qualified, generally earn less than civil servants
away. Congratulations to my hon. Friends the Members in other Government Departments.
847 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 848

My hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew It is important that complex and holistic issues like
Rosindell) said that we should deepen our ties with Huawei and Nord Stream 2 become absolutely part of
Canada, New Zealand and Australia in the new CANZUK our foreign policy review. Whoever becomes Chair of
alliance covering trade, defence, academia and research. the Foreign Affairs Committee, whether it is me, my
That is part of, but not instead of, a renewed commitment excellent hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin
to multilateralism. An important part of our overseas Blunt) or my equally excellent hon. Friend the Member
strategy is the ability to see issues holistically, whether for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat)—both
that is Nord Stream 2—a new pipeline in the Baltic that superb previous Chairmen; I hope I persuade folks in
is one of Russia’s key strategic aims in Europe—or, in this House to focus on the word “previous”—they
our own country, the issue of the Chinese tech giant should be pledging to open an immediate investigation
Huawei and its potential involvement in our 5G network. into the suitability of Huawei and Chinese high tech in
This is an extraordinarily important issue—one of the our systems to see if there is any way that they can be
major issues of the 21st century—but sadly there has claimed or argued to be trusted vendors.
been little debate about or parliamentary scrutiny of Our new global Britain needs integration and strategy.
the matter in this country. We need to see issues holistically both at home and
US officials are in town today in a last-ditch attempt abroad. Preferably, we need to ensure that the public
to win UK support for their position on Huawei. We but also Members in this House play a strong and
should listen very closely not only to our friends in the inclusive role in the foreign policy review.
United States, regardless of what one thinks of President 9.32 pm
Trump, but also to friends in places such as Australia, Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): It is a pleasure
who have taken the decision not to include Chinese high to speak in this debate on Britain’s role in the world and
tech in their own 5G networks. The blunt reality is that to follow the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely),
China is a cyber-risk and will remain so for years. It has who is always such a thoughtful and strategic thinker.
a dreadful reputation for cyber-attacks and intellectual I think we all benefit from his thoughts.
property theft against western and global institutions
and firms. Huawei itself is the subject of a US investigation The right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis)
for fraud and commercial espionage. China, with whom recognised his own repetitiveness but certainly gave a
it is vital to have good relations, has sadly become more thoughtful speech on defence policy and the need to
adversarial internationally and less tolerant of dissent remember that most conflicts that we face and have
domestically. faced in the past have not been predicted.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon
Sadly, the debate over Huawei is marked by dangerous Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) talked passionately about
levels of misunderstanding and sometimes disinformation. the international history of Newcastle—a city much
For example, Huawei argues that it is a private firm. In like Liverpool, where I proudly represent the Liverpool,
no meaningful sense is that correct. Huawei is, to all Walton constituency. She talked about the importance
intents and purposes, part of the Chinese state, and to of manufacturing and trade as the UK leaves the European
allow it a role in the 5G network is effectively to allow Union, and about next week’s UK-Africa summit and
China and its agencies access to our network. To say the need for our trade relationship with Africa to be
otherwise is simply false. It is argued that Huawei will beneficial to African nations.
enable wider market provision. In reality, the opposite is We have heard some excellent maiden speeches. The
the case, because China openly seeks to dominate global hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) painted a
comms. The risk is that by supporting Chinese high lovely picture of a historical place in our country but
tech, we will allow such firms—pumped by billions also talked about the people struggling in the constituency
from Chinese investment banks—to undercut western that she represents. I enjoyed the returning maiden
firms such as Ericsson and Nokia, with whom we do speech, if I can call it that, by the hon. Member for
not need “no spy” agreements because we know they Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond), who said that she is
will not spy on us. one of only two Members of this House to be born in
It is also claimed that Huawei will be limited to the Aden. I knew the hon. Member for Stafford (Theo
fringes of the 5G network. Sadly, this argument has Clarke) before her election through her work at the
been used quite a bit. It is, say experts, untrue. According Coalition for Global Prosperity, so it is a pleasure to see
to the experts, there is nothing like the same extent of her take her seat. The right hon. Member for Orkney
difference between core and non-core in 5G as in 4G. and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) reminded the House of
For example, antennas in 5G will not be dumb bits of the plight of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
kit but complex and intelligent bits of hardware and My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Kate
software. To be in the 5G system anywhere will be to be Osamor) made a passionate speech in which she described
in the 5G system per se. That is why Rob Strayer, the US how the world is becoming divided between Steve Bannon’s
Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, has said that any new world order of bully-boy Presidents and the world
role for Huawei in a 5G network here or elsewhere poses that some of us want to see, which is much fairer,
an “unacceptable risk” and will potentially damage our tackles the real issues of inequality and poverty, and
relationship with the United States but also with other speaks up for human rights. There were excellent maiden
Five Eyes nations. We need to build up alliances and not speeches from the hon. Members for Wakefield (Imran
risk them in this day and age. There are other powerful Ahmad Khan), for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns)
moral arguments against the use of Chinese firms in and for Delyn (Rob Roberts). My hon. Friend the
our high tech that I do not have time to deal with now, Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West)
but in short, China is using big data and artificial set out her views on a foreign policy underpinned by
intelligence to build up a highly efficient surveillance security, trade and human rights and the risks of our
state the kind of which the world has not seen. leaving some of the security arrangements within the EU.
849 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 850

[Dan Carden] In the Queen’s Speech, we heard about plans to carry

out an integrated security, defence and foreign policy
As we start a new decade and look towards a new era review, which will
of Britain outside the EU, the big question for us all in “reassess the nation’s place in the world, covering....defence to
this Parliament is what type of country do we want to diplomacy and development.”
be on the world stage? Who will our allies and partners Can the Minister enlighten us as to when this review
be in the months and years to come? Who will we side will happen, and crucially, will he assure us that a broad
with? Will we side with human rights abusers, bully-boy range of stakeholders will be involved in the review,
Presidents, warmongers and those who seek to wreck including civil society organisations in the UK and
our environment, or will we be on the side of international those overseas who are impacted by the UK’s international
law and human rights, promoting peace and diplomacy? policies?
Will we stand alongside people across the globe who are The UK will host COP26 in Glasgow later this year.
fighting for a more just world, to end global poverty, It will be a pivotal moment in the fight for climate
inequality, conflict and climate catastrophe? justice. We welcome the Government’s commitment to
In recent years, I am afraid that this Government binding targets to net zero, and of course we want the
have too often put this country on the wrong side of Government to go further. These targets mean nothing
that divide, selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, building unless the UK takes swift action now, and there are just
friendships with controversial nationalists such as Viktor 10 short months left until the summit. We must remember
Orbán, conducting trade talks with the US to sell off that this is not a problem for the future; people across
our NHS, funding the fossil fuel industry overseas through the global south are already suffering the reality of the
export finance and UK aid, and failing to condemn climate catastrophe. The UK must make serious progress
PresidentTrump’sdangerousforeignpolicydecisions—instead on transforming our own economy and bringing emissions
inviting him for state visits, with little to say about his down right away if, as host, we are to lead and persuade
Muslim ban, detaining child migrants, threats of nuclear others to follow. What exactly will the Government do
Armageddon, and military interventionism by tweet. in the coming months to prove that Britain is serious
Let us remember that it is this US President who turned about cutting emissions, and what exactly will the Prime
his back on the Kurds after they fought ISIS in Syria; Minister be doing right away to bring the small subset
cut United Nations Relief and Works Agency funding, of obstructive leaders, including President Trump, on
which supports 5.5 million Palestinian refugees; and is board with the world’s climate agreement?
withdrawing the United States from the Paris climate At some point, this House and perhaps a future
agreement. If we want a stable world, Britain’s leaders Government will have to accept that the dominant
must be brave enough to stand up to the reckless actions economic system is broken—a world where 90% of
and rhetoric of all world leaders, whoever they are. If we global resources are controlled by a wealthy few, where
want lasting peace in the world, we must use diplomacy $1 trillion a year are lost to the global south through
and speak up for international law. Real strength is illicit financial flows, where global corporations violate
standing up for those values. human rights and wreck our environment with impunity.
It was the last Labour Government who established The crisis of global poverty and grotesque inequality
the independent Department for International Development will not be solved until political leaders find the will
back in 1997. Under this Prime Minister, it seems that to act.
barely a week goes by without rumours of DFID shutting, Let me end on a note of caution. Britain’s role in the
merging, shrinking, folding or being denied its own world has changed enormously in the last 50 years. We
Secretary of State. Those concerned with the fight were once an empire and now, thankfully, we are not.
against global poverty have spent too much precious We can and we must continue to show global leadership,
time trying to get a simple answer to a simple question, but we must do that by standing true to our values of
so let me ask it: are this Government committed to an human rights, diplomacy, international law and social
independent Department for International Development justice, and we must do it through international co-operation
with its own Secretary of State and maintaining the and partnership, working within and defending and
UK’s 0.7% commitment on overseas aid? It would be strengthening international institutions, such as the United
great to get an answer to that question tonight. Nations, that Britain was at the heart of establishing
As one of the richest countries in the world, there should after the second world war. The coming years are a time
be no question about our playing a role in fighting the to reflect on and reshape Britain’s place and role in the
biggest global challenges of our time: unprecedented world, not a time for bombast, jingoistic imperialism or,
inequality, with 26 individuals owning the same amount indeed, short-sighted nationalism. The Labour party
of wealth as the poorest half of humanity; rising global will always promote real internationalism through
hunger, with 800 million people not having enough food co-operation and solidarity.
to eat; forced displacement on an unimaginable scale;
conflicts with no end in sight; and a catastrophic climate 9.42 pm
crisis. If we are going to tackle those challenges, there is The Minister of State, Department for International
a lot that Britain needs to do differently on the world Development (Andrew Stephenson): It is an honour to
stage, from ensuring fairer trade deals, clamping down address this House on behalf of the Government and to
on global tax-dodging, preventing countries from falling close this debate on Britain in the world. I am grateful
into debt crises and reshaping our relations with countries for the insightful contributions from all the right hon.
in the global south so that they are no longer based on and hon. Members who have spoken, and I will try to
the extraction of resources and exploitation of people. respond to as many of the points raised as I can. I am
Putting those structural issues aside, keeping DFID particularly delighted to welcome the maiden speeches
would be the smallest gesture we can make. from new Members—my hon. Friends the Members for
851 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 852

Delyn (Rob Roberts) and for Rutland and Melton Relationships that boost British business but also strengthen
(Alicia Kearns), the hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy countries across Africa are very important, and that
Cooper), and my hon. Friends the Members for Stafford point was made by several Members in this debate.
(Theo Clarke) and for Wakefield (Imran Ahmad Khan). Supporting countries’ economic growth to help them
For me, my hon. Friend the new Member for Stafford become self-sustaining is their best route out of poverty.
is a familiar face, as I have met her several times in her As we leave the European Union, we will embark on
former role as chief executive and founder of the cross-party a new chapter in our country’s history, deciding for
Coalition for Global Prosperity. She paid full and deserved ourselves our own priorities and negotiating our own
tribute to her predecessor, Jeremy Lefroy, whose expertise trade deals—deals that will be fair as well as free. We
in international development was respected across this will strengthen our links with the Commonwealth, which
House. She has already proven herself as a powerful boasts some of the most dynamic economies around
advocate of Britain’s global role in promoting international the world. The African investment summit we are holding
development, and I think the people of Stafford will be in London next week was mentioned by the hon. Member
incredibly well served by her. for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) and
It is appropriate that my hon. Friend the new Member my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford. It will create
for Wakefield made his maiden speech in this debate, lasting partnerships that will deliver investment, jobs
given his wide experience around the world—and we and growth across Africa and in the UK.
“Agadoo” warmly welcome him. [Laughter.] He is the As a responsible world-leading nation, from promoting
first Ahmadiyya Muslim ever elected to this place, the rights of girls to be educated or combating the
which is an important first and consistent with our devastating effects of climate change to responding to
party’s record as one of opportunity. His experience the biggest health issues around the world, we are a
advising a range of Governments across the world will I country that leads on the world stage. We are the only
hope be extended to offering me some helpful tips, and major country that meets both the NATO target of
I hope he will not mind if I try to parachute him in from spending 2% of our GDP on defence and the target of
time to time. spending 0.7% of GNI on international development.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton They are targets this Government will honour, and that
has a tough act to follow in Sir Alan Duncan, but her is only possible with a strong economy.
maiden speech has been rightly praised from both sides
of the House. I am sure all Members will agree with her We should be proud of the role that Britain plays in
remarks on serving our constituents to the best of our the world; where we lead, others follow. When countries
abilities. She also made several telling comments about call for support, Britain answers. The UK is a development
the complex nature of the diplomatic and national superpower; our global leadership projects our values
security challenges we face today. I welcome the expertise and helps to protect our interests and secure our place
she brings to this and look forward to her contribution in the world. Development is also central to our role in
in future debates on this topic. bolstering the rules-based international system, a role
the UK is committed to, as my right hon. Friend the
My hon. Friend the new Member for Delyn spoke
Foreign Secretary made clear in his remarks earlier.
persuasively about our Union and Wales’s place in
Britain, largely speaking without notes. It is excellent to After Brexit, we will bolster our crucial international
see more Conservative representatives from Wales, and alliances and institutions. We will stand up and be
particularly from constituencies with large aerospace counted in the United Nations Security Council, the
factories, in his case Airbus, in mine Rolls-Royce. As he UN, NATO, the Commonwealth, the G20, the G7 and
said, we are now truly the party of the workers. He the World Trade Organisation. We are proud of our
spoke warmly about his predecessor, who was, indeed, peace-building and humanitarian efforts around the world.
well respected across the House, as I feel sure my hon. We are proud of our record in helping reduce global
Friend will be. poverty and helping to save lives around the world.
I also welcome the contribution from the hon. Member Building on those efforts, we will aim to end the preventable
for St Albans. As someone who lives next door to a pub, deaths of mothers, babies and children by 2030. This
I welcomed the focus of her remarks. I can assure her means ending malaria, one of the leading causes of
that the Government will keep Britain open—open to death in children under five, and ending Ebola as a
business and open to collaboration on science and publichealththreat.Italsomeanssupportingthedevelopment
climate change. She paid a generous tribute to her and deployment of vaccines; an important signal of our
predecessor, Anne Main. Anne was one of this House’s commitment will be when we host Gavi, the Vaccine
leading advocates for the Bangladeshi community and Alliance global replenishment conference in June.
for persecuted Rohingya Muslims. I pay tribute to Anne Under this Conservative Government, the UK will
for her work, and I am sure the hon. Lady and other continue to play a leading role in fighting for the rights
Members around the House will continue with that of women and girls. Investing in girls’ education helps
work in this Parliament. to boost women in the workforce. It boosts economic
This Government are immensely proud of Britain’s growth and prevents child marriage and early pregnancy.
role in the world—in history, now, and in the new role We will stand up for the right of every girl in the world
we will play as we get Brexit done and unleash the to have 12 years of quality education, one of the most
potential of this country. My right hon. Friend the basic human rights—the right to a decent education.
International Development Secretary is in Kenya today We will strengthen our role protecting human rights
meeting the Kenyan President to discuss the huge potential around the world by further developing an independent
of closer partnership between our countries. I have just sanctions regime to tackle those who abuse them. We
this morning returned from Africa—I was pleased to will continue our campaign to promote international
visit Angola, Uganda and Namibia—where I discussed media freedom and to end human trafficking and modern
deepening our trading partnerships with those countries. slavery. We will continue to promote and protect LGBT
853 Debate on the Address 13 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 854

[Andrew Stephenson] strong rationale for us to progress trade negotiations

with the US from 31 January, as he said today and so
rights, including as Equal Rights Coalition chair, and eloquently set out in his recent article in The Daily
we will host an international LGBT conference in May. Telegraph.
We will seek to protect those persecuted for their faith Having just returned last week from visiting the
and implement the Truro review recommendations, a Commonwealth countries Namibia and Uganda and
topic eloquently raised by my hon. Friend the Member visiting Angola, which has applied to join the
for Wakefield. Commonwealth, I strongly agree with the comments by
Another area on which the United Kingdom proudly my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew
leads the world is climate change and biodiversity loss. Rosindell) about the importance of the Commonwealth.
We were the first major economy to legislate for net zero The Commonwealth was also touched on by my hon.
emissions, and we will deliver by 2050. We have already Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman),
reduced our carbon emissions by 43% since 1990. We who has always been a strong advocate of strengthening
have doubled the support we offer developing nations and deepening our ties with India.
to tackle climate change and, as hosts of the UN climate My hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire
change summit in Glasgow this November, we will and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) reminded us why as
ensure that we continue to provide global leadership. the UK we are stronger together and of the fact that the
We will build new international partnerships to tackle UK was the first country in the G7 to hit the UN target
deforestation and to protect landscapes and wildlife. We of spending 0.7% on overseas development. My hon.
will establish a new £500 million blue planet fund to help Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) reminded
to protect our oceans from plastic pollution, overfishing us of the importance of the Council of Europe and the
and rising sea temperatures, something rightly referred issues that are discussed there. He is correct when he
to by my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith). says that there is a lack of understanding about the
Turning to a few more points raised during the Council of Europe. However, I hope that he accepts and
debate, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon understands that, as a former pairing Whip who used to
(Mr Whittingdale) spoke passionately about the importance try to move heaven and earth to get him and other
of the Inter-Parliamentary Union in bringing people there, I do get it.
parliamentarians together, and the role of the British My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob
Council and the BBC World Service. I could not agree Seely) spoke about his concerns over Huawei. The final
more. His comments on media freedom and the number decision on high-risk vendors will be taken in due
of journalists killed or still in jail really brought home course and the Government will consider the full range
why this is a top priority for the United Kingdom. of risks when making that decision.
My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest In conclusion, the Queen’s Speech lays out our ambitious,
East (Dr Lewis) spoke eloquently about the importance optimistic and bold vision for our new place in the
of defence spending, an area in which he has considerable world. This new vision builds on the work of the British
expertise. As part of the spending round 2019, the people—their work in making our country world-leading,
Government committed to an additional £2.2 billion of whether that is British medics who spent their Christmas
funding for defence this year. That recognises the critical fighting a deadly measles outbreak in Samoa, or our
role defence plays in ensuring the safety and security of world-leading climate change scientists and clean energy
British people at home and abroad, supporting our pioneers whose endeavours will benefit from our new
allies, projecting influence and promoting UK prosperity. £1 billion Ayrton fund, or the brave men and women
However, I appreciate, as always, that he will want us to of our armed forces who, in 2019, were involved in
go further. 35 operations across 30 countries.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and
Malling (Tom Tugendhat), who so ably chaired the Alec Shelbrooke: Does my hon. Friend agree that he
Foreign Affairs Select Committee for the past two years, is outlining a positive, one nation vision not just for this
spoke of the need to build new partnerships while country, but for world leadership? Is that not in stark
remaining vigilant about the threat from China and contrast to those who have not learnt the lessons of the
Russia. He also reminded us that Britain will remain in last election and who want to do Britain down? This
Europe—Europe is not Brussels. Government recognise the fact that we can lead the
I am delighted to welcome back to this place my hon. world with a positive vision for this decade.
Friend the Member for Meon Valley (Mrs Drummond),
who rightly paid warm and deserved tribute to her Andrew Stephenson: As ever, I agree wholeheartedly
predecessor, Sir George Hollingbery. She spoke with with my right hon. Friend—he may be a Yorkshireman,
real knowledge about soft power. I am delighted that we but he speaks some sense. The contrast in this debate
are helping to re-establish the all-party group on Yemen. has been between the optimism and hope of Government
Members and the pessimism and failed leadership bids
My right hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and
of Opposition Members.
Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) spoke with passion about
defence infrastructure and, most importantly, the benefits We are at a pivotal moment globally and for the
of democracy. That is particularly apt exactly one month United Kingdom. The British people have given us a
on from a sleepless night for all of us. mandate to proceed. We will deliver on it, and I commend
the speech to the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker)
spoke about the need to prioritise a free trade agreement Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Rebecca
with the USA. As he knows, we intend to secure a deal Harris.)
with the EU by the end of December, but there is a Debate to be resumed tomorrow.
855 13 JANUARY 2020 Official Development Assistance 856
Target
Official Development Assistance Target and changed, but it has provided a distinctive and
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House dedicated voice within government that has championed
do now adjourn.—(Rebecca Harris.) our commitments and obligations to the poorest and
most vulnerable around the world—
9.56 pm
10 pm
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I congratulate
the Minister on his appointment and recognise that he Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)).
is putting in a bit of a shift on the Treasury Bench Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House
today, although he could have saved us time if he had do now adjourn.—(Rebecca Harris.)
answered a single one of the questions that the hon.
Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) put to Patrick Grady: You’ve got to love some of the procedures
him in his winding-up speech during the last debate. We in this place, Mr Speaker.
might not even have needed this Adjournment debate, DFID has provided a vital link between delivery
but as it is, this gives us the opportunity to go into some agencies and government, whether they are large multilateral
of those questions in a bit more detail. institutions such as UNICEF and the World Food
I also take this opportunity to thank the voters in Programme, or our own domestic agencies, such as
Glasgow North for returning me once again, and to my Oxfam, Christian Aid and my own former employers,
staff team, my campaign volunteers and the team in the the Scottish Catholic International Aid Fund and its
Scottish National party Whips Office—Anne, Christopher sister organisation, the Catholic Agency for Overseas
and Kieran. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member Development. DFID funding has helped member
for Glasgow East (David Linden) for his service in the organisations of the Scotland Malawi Partnership, which
Whips Office and welcome back my hon. Friend the has provided secretariat support to the all-party group
Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson), who is on Malawi—I hope to continue chairing that group in
joining the team. this Parliament. DFID support has helped its members
I am very grateful to have secured this debate so early put the network’s partnership principles into practice,
in the new parliamentary term because, as we heard in building priceless people-to-people and community-to-
the preceding debate, the future of the aid budget and community links between the two countries and building
how it is delivered is one of the most pressing matters relationships of solidarity, mutual respect and learning
and choices facing the Government. It is important that that help Malawi, Scotland and the UK make progress
they hear early on in the parliamentary term of the towards the sustainable development goals and more.
cross-party concerns and those of many stakeholders DFID’s support for the Westminster Foundation
before they make yet another decision that they may for Democracy—I declare an interest, because I am still
well come to regret. a member of its board of governors—has also helped
We have just 10 years left to meet the global goals for to strengthen democratic institutions in developing
sustainable development that were agreed at the United democracies around the world. That in turn means that
Nations in 2015. They represent an international consensus Governments become more effective in mobilising their
about the kind of world that is both possible and own resources to help societies meet the global goals.
necessary to ensure a healthy, sustainable planet and In recent years, countless lives have been changed by
society for future generations. We should give credit DFID’s Aid Match programme, which has allowed
where it is due: the global goals agreement was driven in individual donors in this country to understand more
no small part by the then Prime Minister, David Cameron. clearly just how each pound they give can change lives
Crucial to giving credibility to his case was the progress overseas. SCIAF told me about Paulin, a farmer in
that the United Kingdom was making towards meeting Rwanda, who has been provided with access to clean
the target of spending 0.7% of national income on water through an Aid Match-funded programme. Paulin
official development assistance. The idea that wealthy said that
countries should aim to spend that much on aid dates “thanks to the support, I can now feed myself and my children.
back to the 1970s, when it was calculated that doing so The area is very dry but we can share the water we get from the
would generate enough resources to meet the targets water tanks and we can grow crops. I can eat and rejoice!”
that were then in place to end world poverty and We should all rejoice at the lives changed and the
improve access to food, education and other basic human progress made thanks to the delivery of the aid target
rights. through DFID.
Thanks again to that cross-party consensus, the UK Throughout all of this, DFID has been one of the
is, as we have just heard, one of the few countries in the most accountable, transparent and scrutinised UK
world not only to be meeting the target, but to have it Departments. As well as the usual round of questions
enshrined in statute. All that is very commendable, and here in the Chamber and a heavy load of Westminster
at a time when there is considerable disagreement in Hall debates, active Chairs of the International
other parts of domestic and international policy, it is Development Committee over the years have kept a
something that should be very carefully protected. keen eye on its programmes, and of course it is also
The success has been not just the achievement of the scrutinised by the Independent Commission for Aid
target but how the aid has been delivered. The Department Impact. Publish What You Fund’s global aid transparency
for International Development was established in 1997. index in 2018 rated DFID as “very good”for its effectiveness
Again, it might be rare to hear an SNP Member commend and transparency. In contrast, it rated the Foreign and
the actions of the Blair Government, but this was a Commonwealth Office as “poor”. This is concerning
significant and ambitious decision, and one that has, because in recent years, particularly since 2015, the
and should continue to have, the support of a wide, FCO has been one of the Departments spending an
cross-party consensus. Over the years, DFID has evolved increasing share of the overall aid budget.
857 Official Development Assistance 13 JANUARY 2020 Official Development Assistance 858
Target Target
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): international development and made no reference to
Evidence from Australia and Canada, which have merged the sustainable development goals. All the other main
their foreign and development departments, has shown parties committed to maintaining DFID as a stand-alone
that this can threaten the quality and impact of aid, and Department, but the Tory manifesto was silent on that.
detailed analysis carried out by the Overseas Development The Minister now has an important opportunity to
Institute has found that foreign policy and development clarify, on the record, the Government’s position and
alignment has little or no obvious benefit for either. intentions. Members have been asking about this all
Does the hon. Gentleman agree therefore that a merger day, and we do not want to hear a “wait and see”
of DFID and the FCO would put at risk the excellent response. He has seen my early-day motion about this
work that an independent DFID has done around the issue and he knew perfectly well what the subject of this
world, as he has outlined in his excellent speech? debate would be from the title, so here goes.
Can the Minister give the House a categorical assurance
Patrick Grady: Absolutely—the SNP, of course, promotes that the Government will spend 0.7% of gross national
independence for all kinds of causes. This is at the heart income on official development assistance each year for
of the debate. It was raised by the Labour Front-Bench the lifetime of this Parliament? To do anything else
spokesperson in his conclusion in today’s debate on the would jeopardise over 20 years of cross-party consensus
Queen’s Speech, it was raised by my hon. Friend the and risk undermining any pretence to global leadership
Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith), and it has been on these issues. Can he confirm that the Government
raised by Members across the House, and I will come will not seek to change, or initiate changes to, pre-existing
back to it as well. I hope the Minister will take this international definitions of official development assistance?
chance to answer it. The hon. Member for Enfield, If the OECD definition were to change, that should be
Southgate (Bambos Charalambous) is absolutely right done on the basis of an evidential need and using a
to raise the international examples, because there has consensus-based approach. At the very least, any changes
been regression elsewhere in the world. The UK is would need to be agreed through a genuinely participative,
supposed to pride itself on its global leadership, so let consultative, global process. It would defeat the entire
us see if that is to continue. purpose of meeting the target if the definition of aid
were to be arbitrarily or unilaterally changed, especially
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): The hon. Gentleman if it allowed aid to be used for diplomacy, military or
is making a passionate and compelling speech in favour corporate commercial purposes.
of overseas development. Does he agree that we are
much better able to have the kind of impact internationally Can the Minister outline what discussions, if any,
that he talks about when we are one United Kingdom have taken place within Government about the continued
than we would if we were fragmented into four different existence of DFID as a dedicated, stand-alone Department?
nations? What is his response to newspaper reports that DFID
might be retained as a Department, but that its Secretary
Patrick Grady: I will be happy to return to that, but I of State would also be the Foreign Secretary? He must
would point out that 0.7% is a proportion of gross surely accept that if that were to happen, it would be a
national income, so Scotland, under a Barnett formula merger of the FCO and DFID in all but name. If DFID
or whatever, as an independent country, would continue is to remain both effective and accountable, it must have
to spend its equivalent proportion or possibly more. its own dedicated Secretary of State, who can champion
its cause in the Cabinet and answer questions on the
We have yet another ministerial team in DFID. I
Floor of this House.
welcome all those Ministers to their posts, especially
those who have arrived via the Government Whips Have any such discussions about the future of the
Office, but they should know that the trend away from Department been part of preparations for the Government’s
the aid target for DFID spending is something that proposed integrated security, defence and foreign policy
many of us have been keeping an eye on for many years, review? As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton
and it is a cause for concern. As my hon. Friend the asked earlier from the Labour Front Bench, what is the
Member for Stirling pointed out earlier, over 27% of timetable for the review? Will it be subject to consultation,
ODA funds are now spent by Departments other than and what other opportunities will there be for stakeholders
DFID, including the Home Office and the Ministry of to contribute? What is the Minister’s response to press
Defence. I have been particularly concerned about the reports that DFID country reps will be asked to report
increasing amount of spending that is effectively being to local UK ambassadors? Does he realise that this
double-counted, towards both the 0.7% aid target and risks politicising DFID programmes in developing
the NATO defence spending target of 2% of gross countries?
national income. I know that Ministers will say that they Aid should be delivered without fear or favour. One
do not mark their own homework and that it cannot be of the great achievements of DFID and the global aid
helped if some spending meets both measurements, but community since the 1990s has been the move away
every effort should be made to ensure that the two from conditionality of aid and the understanding that
targets are reached with distinct spending and that any progress towards the global goals should be separated
overlap just happens to be a bonus. from any specific relationship issues with country
The National Audit Office concluded in June 2019 Governments. We cannot allow that to slide backwards.
that aid spending outside DFID was not transparent If the Minister sees a case for integrating DFID functions
enough. Those concerns can only be compounded by with embassies, can he have a word with his colleagues
the growing rumour and speculation in the press and at the Home Office, who are busy stripping visa functions
elsewhere about the future of the Department and the out of embassies, privatising them and causing chaos in
Government’s commitment to the ODA target. The their wake? Either embassies are hubs for the entirety of
Tory manifesto in this election barely mentioned the UK’s presence in a country or they are not.
859 Official Development Assistance 13 JANUARY 2020 Official Development Assistance 860
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What reassurances can the Minister give to DFID It is in all our interests to end poverty, to ensure that
staff about the size of the workforce and the Government’s every child is given an education, to keep the oceans
commitment to retaining their expertise, especially, but clean, and to help communities adapt to and mitigate
not only, for those based in Scotland? the effects of climate change. We are all part of one
human family, and our own individual dignity is diminished
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and when our poorest sisters and brothers are forced to live
Lesmahagow) (SNP): Does my hon. Friend agree that, in a poverty that is not of their own making, so the
given the current reports and the lack of clarification global interest—the global vision of the sustainable
from the Ministers in charge, staff based at DFID’s development goals—must be in the UK’s national interest.
East Kilbride headquarters—who are doing fantastic If the Government accept and recognise that, the
work in reaching the poorest people all over the world logic follows that they must continue to meet their
through their programmes and their specialist expertise— international obligations to aid and development through
face an uncertain future? Does he agree that that is the 0.7% target, and they should deliver that through a
unfair to them, and that clarity and reassurance must be dedicated Department for International Development.
offered immediately? I hope very much that the Minister and his inevitable
successors, in whatever shape or form, will agree.
Patrick Grady: I wholeheartedly agree, and that was 10.13 pm
the whole point of my applying for tonight’s debate. We
want those assurances from the UK Government. The Minister of State, Department for International
Development (Andrew Stephenson): I am grateful to the
Let me gently remind the Government, and other hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) for
Conservative Members who raised this issue earlier, securing a debate which is very timely, given some of the
that in 2014 the presence of DFID in East Kilbride was press reports. I hope that I shall be able to answer all his
touted as one of the great benefits of the Union, and it questions tonight, but before I do so, let me put on
was said that its loss would be one of the great risks of record a few of DFID’s greatest hits. First, let me
independence. As I said earlier, the independence White acknowledge the incredible contribution made by those
Paper committed us to going further than the 0.7% in DFID’s joint headquarters in East Kilbride, and by
target, and we would have wanted to retain that global charities in Scotland such as the HALO Trust.
expertise. It seems that—as with so many of the promises
of Better Together in 2014—following Scotland’s choice We should all be immensely proud of what our
to stay part of the United Kingdom, all the supposed continued 0.7% commitment in legislation achieves.
risks of independence are being realised in any event. That commitment was shared by all—I emphasise the
word “all”—parties in their manifestos at the recent
What reassurances can the Minister give to the many general election, so the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s
stakeholders, charities and non-governmental organisations, first question is a categoric “yes”. We are 100% committed
here in the UK and around the world, about the future to the 0.7% target throughout the current Parliament,
of the funds that they currently receive from DFID? and I cannot see that changing in any future manifesto.
Changing or diminishing aid definitions, departmental The UK is, and will remain, a global champion for
restructuring, or any wavering of the 0.7% target will humanitarian relief and international development. Helping
put at risk the ability of those organisations to deliver the world’s poorest is at the heart of what we do.
their programmes and plan for the future. Tackling the drivers of conflict, poverty, political instability
No organisation should be, or wants to be, dependent and climate change is vital to the effectiveness of that
on specific grant funding, but for many organisations of work. In that regard, the aid budget is working in our
which I have had personal experience, DFID grants national interest and the global interest, and keeping us
provide a foundation that allows them to develop or safe here at home. Our aid spending is also catalysing
expand other aspects of their work. That is particularly growth across the developing world, removing barriers
true of the UK Aid Match programme, which I mentioned to trade, and, in doing so, helping countries to move
earlier. It is not without its flaws, but it has grown in away from their dependence on aid and become our
popularity in recent years. The best development results trading partners of the future.
are achieved when funding is provided on a stable basis We know we must maximise the good that we do with
over a long period rather than being chopped and what money we have, in the interests of those we are
changed on a whim. Such agencies should also be trying to help and to create direct positive results for the
allowed—even expected—to challenge and lobby UK. DFID has strict processes in place to deliver even
Governments on all of these issues, without any fear better value for money, so that UK aid is not misspent
that that will affect their ability to be awarded funds for or diverted. This includes holding aid organisations to
overseas programmes. account by tying funding to performance, closing
My final question to the Minister, which I have asked programmes that fail to meet development objectives
several of his predecessors and will probably ask several and increasing efficiency savings. We also have a counter-
of his successors, is this: how do the Government define fraud and whistleblowing unit with dedicated resources
the “national interest”? It has been a mantra of DFID assigned to investigating the misappropriation of funds.
Secretaries of State and other Ministers since 2015 that We all know that UK aid works. To list just a few
aid should work in the national interest, but when it results achieved since 2015: more than 14 million children
comes to aid and development, how does the national have gained a decent education, of whom almost 6 million
interest differ from the global interest? In what way is are girls; 3.9 million people have been supported to
achieving the global goals for sustainable development raise their incomes or to maintain or gain a better job or
contrary, or somehow supplementary, to the national livelihood; and over the past eight years, UK international
interest? climate finance programmes have supported 57 million
861 Official Development Assistance 13 JANUARY 2020 Official Development Assistance 862
Target Target
[Andrew Stephenson] UK scientists and cutting-edge technology are also at
the forefront of global efforts, from developing new
people to cope with the effects of climate change and vaccines to wipe out disease, to transforming the way
enabled 26 million to have access to clean energy. The we do development. Diagnostic tests for TB, developed
crucial support our aid programmes provide at times of with UK aid, are now being used by the national health
humanitarian crises is something we should be proud service. The skills gained by the UK’s emergency medical
of. More than 32 million people have been supported team in tackling diseases now benefit their work in
with humanitarian assistance since 2015, including at the UK.
least 10 million women and girls.
The way in which we achieve this is by harnessing all
At the UN climate action summit in September the levers at the Government’s disposal. The UK aid strategy,
Prime Minister committed to doubling the amount the published in 2015, signalled the need for a new whole-
UK spends on tackling climate change in developing of-Government approach. This allowed us to draw on
countries to at least £11.6 billion from 2021 to 2025, the complementary skills and expertise of all Government
making us the first country in the world to make a Departments to tackle today’s global challenges. For
post-2020 climate finance pledge. The UK is also the example, the UK’s response to the Ebola epidemic is
largest contributor to major multilateral climate funds made more effective by leveraging the health expertise
such as the Green Climate Fund and the Climate Investment at the Department for Health and Social Care and
Funds. DFID funds are helping to build the resilience Public Health England, the logistical expertise at the
of people and communities to cope with climate change, Ministry of Defence, and DFID’s deep contextual
including natural disasters; to support the development knowledge.
of low carbon and climate-resilient infrastructure; and
to support new technology, research and innovation to Although we have made great progress in those examples,
improve the effectiveness of action on climate change. there is more to do. I am certain that right hon. and
Aberdeen virologist Dr Catherine Houlihan, who treated hon. Members across the House will agree that the
Ebola patients in the Democratic Republic of the Congo challenges faced by developing nations are huge.
last year, has spoken about her belief that a vaccine Where the UK considers the international aid rules
developed with support from the UK has changed the to be outdated, we have in the past led the way in
path of this outbreak and saved thousands of lives. pushing for reforms. We have achieved some important
Most recently, UK aid efforts have focused on sending reforms, including increasing the proportion of aid
British medics to fight a deadly measles outbreak in spending that contributes to United Nations peacekeeping
Samoa over Christmas. operations and reducing restrictions to support countries
The UK is a world leader in preventing violence affected by crises and natural disasters. We continue to
against women and girls. We are pioneering approaches challenge other nations to deliver on their commitments
around the world that have shown reductions in violence for a better and safer world.
of around 50%, proving that violence against women Turning to another of the questions asked by the
and girls is preventable. The UK is also leading the way hon. Member for Glasgow North, we will stick to the
in tackling the illicit financial flows that enable global OECD rules on aid spending. Our 0.7% will be fully
criminal gangs to operate. One UK aid project has compliant with those rules. However, I will not make a
supported African law enforcement officials to seize, commitment that we will not seek to lobby for changes
confiscate or preserve over $76 million of illegal assets to be made to the rules, because we have done so in the
in 2017. past, for reasons that I hope the hon. Gentleman will
Advancing economic development in the world’s poorest agree were sensible.
countries is also fundamental to the UK’s international Aid is an important part of Britain’s place in the
leadership. Investing in the growth of companies in world. As a Government we are committed to leading
Africa and south Asia creates the jobs and economic global efforts to tackle Ebola and malaria; to building
stability that lead to global security and help to end aid on our existing efforts to end the preventable deaths of
dependency. That is one of the reasons that we are mothers, newborn babies and children by 2030; and to
hosting the UK-Africa investment summit, which has standing up for the right of every girl in the world to
been mentioned in the debate, in which 21 African have 12 years of quality education.
countries will come to London with the aim of helping
to secure quality deals, create jobs and showcase the During my time as a joint Minister—I was only
UK’s unique offer to Africa. appointed in July, after leaving the Whips Office, briefly
via the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial
Life-changing progress comes from growth that Strategy—I have seen for myself DFID and the Foreign
transforms economies, creates productive jobs and private and Commonwealth Office working together to bring
sector investment and spreads benefits and opportunities operations closer, to share expertise and to better co-ordinate
right across society. As we leave the European Union we responses to current and emerging challenges around
will build on our strong record as a champion of trade the world.
and development. We aim to secure existing duty-free
access to UK markets for the world’s poorest, and The Prime Minister is responsible for all machinery
continue to support developing countries to reduce of government changes, and he has not made any
poverty through trade. Helping developing countries to decisions on the future of DFID during this Parliament.
harness the formidable power of trade means that we The Conservative party manifesto sets out that we will
are not only creating trading partners of the future for proudly maintain our commitment to spending 0.7% of
UK businesses but supporting jobs here at home. Building gross national income on development. The integrated
a more prosperous world and supporting our own long-term defence, security and foreign policy review will create
economic security is firmly in all our interests. the opportunity to reimagine how the UK engages
863 Official Development Assistance 13 JANUARY 2020 Official Development Assistance 864
Target Target
internationally in the context of global Britain. DFID Let me conclude by saying that by investing less than
and FCO teams work proactively in supporting this a penny from each pound of our income in aid, the UK
work. is helping create a safer, healthier and more prosperous
As a country, we are at a pivotal moment. As we exit world.
the EU, the UK will need to do more, not less, and we
will need to become more outward looking. Our aid
commitment increases Britain’s soft power and global
influence. Leaving the EU has no impact on our Question put and agreed to.
commitment to supporting the world’s most vulnerable
people. Nor does it mean that the UK and the EU
should stop acting together to alleviate poverty and to 10.23 pm
tackle shared global challenges when it makes sense House adjourned.
to do so.
865 14 JANUARY 2020 866

House of Commons Over a year ago, the UN special rapporteur said that
Conservative cuts to legal aid had
“effectively deprived”
Tuesday 14 January 2020 people
of their human right to a remedy.”
The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Is it not the case that if the UN special rapporteur
returned today they would make exactly the same finding
because the Government have not done anything to
PRAYERS address that? Is that failure to respond the result of
incompetence or is it simply because they do not care?
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
Wendy Morton: I do not accept the accusations made
by the hon. Gentleman. I have made it absolutely clear
Oral Answers to Questions that access to high-quality, early legal aid can be important
in supporting people in resolving their problems at an
early stage. Last year, we spent £91 million on early
legal advice through legal help, and our total spend was
JUSTICE £1.7 billion. We are in the process of launching a series
of pilots offering support to people with social welfare
The Secretary of State was asked— problems such as housing. I believe in access to justice,
Legal Aid Access which is a fundamental right, and the Government are
committed to ensuring that everyone can have the timely
1. Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): What support that they need.
steps his Department is taking to ensure that legal aid is
accessible to people who need it. [900150] Richard Burgon: What people who are denied their
basic rights need from the Government is action, not
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice words. The UN special rapporteur said that the cuts
(Wendy Morton): It is a pleasure to be in the Chamber, had “overwhelmingly affected the poor” and disabled
Mr Speaker, with you in the Chair. people. Labour is calling for the return of all legal
Access to justice is a fundamental right and the aid-funded early advice, which would be a lifeline for
Government are committed to ensuring that everyone the single mother standing up to a lousy landlord, the
can get the timely support that they need to access the worker standing up to a bullying boss, or the migrant
justice system. However, legal aid is only part of the fighting cruel Home Office policies. Does it not say
picture. We are also enhancing the support and offer to everything about whose side the Government are on
litigants in person by providing a further £3 million of that they are deliberately preventing those people from
funding over the next two years to ensure that those defending their hard-won rights?
representing themselves in court understand the process
and are better supported through it. We are additionally Wendy Morton: No, I do not accept that. I go back to
investing up to £5 million in a legal support innovation my earlier point: we believe in access to justice, particularly
fund alongside many other initiatives. early legal support for those people who absolutely
need it. We have pilots, and the innovation fund is being
Miss Dines: I should declare my interest as a former introduced. The Government remain firmly committed
legal aid barrister. One of the first emails that I received to helping those people who need early legal support
following my successful election as Member of Parliament and legal advice.
for Derbyshire Dales was from a constituent about legal
aid issues. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What can be
that we do not waste legal aid on those who do not need done to stop millions of pounds of public money being
it or on poor administration and excessive charges, and spent on legal aid to support the defence of terrorist
focus legal aid on provision for truly vulnerable people suspects who are accused of the most heinous crimes?
who really need it?
Wendy Morton: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Wendy Morton: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for
her question. She brings a huge amount of experience his question. He makes a fair point, but this is about
in family law to this place. She has made an important people having access to justice when they need it. As I
point. The Government have always made it clear that it said, the Government remain committed to ensuring
is important that legal aid should be targeted on those that people have access to justice and support when
who need it most. Applicants for legal aid funding are they absolutely need it.
subject to a stringent merits test. We have begun a
review of the legal aid means test to ensure that those Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): In
who need legal aid, particularly the vulnerable, can March 2018, 22-year-old Luke Morris Jones of Blaenau
continue to access it in future. Ffestiniog was the first man to die in HMP Berwyn
following a heart attack caused by psychoactive substance
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab): Before asking my abuse. His family, who in this instance did receive legal
question I want to put on record the fact that my aid, remain concerned, following his inquest last month,
thoughts and, I am sure, those of the whole House are that electrical equipment in cells such as kettles can be
with the prison staff at HMP Whitemoor and their used to create the spark needed to take Spice. Will the
families after the horrific attack last week. Minister commit to work with others in reviewing whether
867 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 868

electrical equipment such as kettles should be removed ability to appeal against ridiculously lenient sentences
from cells holding prisoners with a history of Spice for offences such as burglary, possession of a knife,
abuse as a matter of urgency? actual bodily harm, and even for rape when dealt with
in a youth court. Surely we owe it to the victims of
Wendy Morton: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady crime to give them a right to an appropriate sentence.
for her question. Although prisons do not fall within
my portfolio, I fully understand why she would be Chris Philp: I wholly agree with the sentiment that my
concerned about the issue and about the tragedy of the hon. Friend is expressing. Let me reassure him on the
gentlemen who lost his life. My hon. and learned Friend question of rape defendants in the youth court. If the
the Minister of State would be more than happy to judge feels that the crime is sufficiently grave and merits
meet the right hon. Lady to discuss the matter further. a sentence of more than two years, they can move the
case to the Crown court, where it is then eligible for the
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): What assurances unduly lenient sentence scheme. In the past few years,
can my hon. Friend give me that legal aid is reaching the number of referrals under the ULS scheme has
those who need it most—not only in my constituency, increased significantly. In 2018, 1,066 cases were referred
but across the UK—in order that they can access justice? to the Attorney General, who passed 140 on to the
Court of Appeal; the sentence was increased in 99 of
Wendy Morton: I welcome another new Member to those cases. We keep the ULS scheme under continual
the Chamber today for MOJ oral questions. review and will certainly consider very carefully my
We have made it very clear that we remain committed hon. Friend’s representations about its scope.
not only to providing legal aid to those who need it, but
to developing further means of legal support including 19. [900170] Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/
the expansion of early legal advice to help some of the Co-op): I welcome you to your place in the Chair,
most vulnerable people in society with social welfare Mr Speaker.
problems such as housing. We are committed to finding
effective solutions, because it is often early legal advice As well as victims of crime, there are also miscarriages
that makes the difference. of justice. Can the Minister tell us how many appeals
the Criminal Cases Review Commission has recommended
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Will the Minister should progress to appeal, and how many cases the
share with us any plans she has to reverse the hundreds Court of Appeal has granted in the last two years? Can
of millions of pounds of cuts to legal aid budgets under he assure the House that, if those figures are as low as I
the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders fear, miscarriages of justice are not being brushed under
Act 2012 that have been so destructive of access to the carpet by a legal establishment watching its own
justice in this country? back, rather than being open to real scrutiny?

Wendy Morton: I think it is fair to say that I have been Chris Philp: The hon. Lady is quite right to raise that
setting out some of the action points that we are taking issue. I do not have the figures she asks for immediately
forward. We have had the post-implementation review to hand, so perhaps I could undertake to write to her.
of LASPO, and are looking at various means of legal Let me assure her that this Government are certainly
support to help with social welfare issues. We could not committed to making sure that miscarriages of justice
be clearer that we support legal aid and legal support are properly investigated, and if there is anything more
for those who need it, and we will continue to do so. that needs to be done, she can rest assured that we will
do it.
Criminal Appeals: Victims of Crime

2. Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): What recent James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I very much
assessment he has made of the effect of criminal appeals welcome what the Minister says about procedures for
procedures on victims of crime. [900151]
unreasonably short sentencing, but my constituent Ellie
Gould was brutally murdered by Thomas Griffiths this
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice time last year and he was given only a nine-year sentence,
(Chris Philp): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the much to the outrage of the family, and me, because he
Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) for his tireless was only 17 at the time, although he was 18 when he was
campaigning for victims over the years. Partly as a tried and convicted. Surely the hurdle is too high for
consequence of his campaigning, the unduly lenient referral to the Attorney General. It should be much
sentence scheme was expanded in November to cover lower to make it easier for the courts and for the
14 more offences, including child sexual offending, stalking families to seek the Attorney General’s referral to the
and harassment, in order to ensure that the victims of Court of Appeal.
those crimes have a right of appeal if they feel that the
sentence handed down by the judge is unduly lenient. I Chris Philp: I believe that my right hon. and learned
would urge any victim who feels that that is the case for Friend the Lord Chancellor is meeting my hon. Friend
a qualifying sentence to avail themselves of the ULS next week to discuss precisely that case. Not every case
scheme. referred to the Attorney General will be referred onward
to the Court of Appeal, because obviously the Attorney
Gareth Johnson: Nobody has done more to widen the General has to assess the case in the light of statute. I
scope of the unduly lenient sentence scheme than the know that the Lord Chancellor is looking forward to
Secretary of State. However, may I ask the Minister to his meeting with my hon. Friend and will be discussing
continue expanding the scheme? There is currently no that particular, very distressing case in some detail.
869 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 870

Perinatal Women: Custodial Settings Victims of Domestic Abuse

3. Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): What plans 4. Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster)
his Department has to improve training for people (Con): What steps his Department is taking to support
working with perinatal women in custodial settings. victims of domestic abuse. [900153]
[900152]
22. Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): What steps his
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy Department is taking to support victims of domestic
Frazer): I, too, welcome to your place, Mr Speaker. abuse. [900173]
I know that the hon. Lady is very interested in this
very important area and chaired a roundtable that a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice
former Justice Minister attended. It is absolutely right (Wendy Morton): We are committed to doing everything
that pregnant women in custody should get the care that we can to end domestic abuse. It is an appalling crime
they deserve. I hope she will be reassured to know that that ruins far too many lives. It is vital that we better
there is a two-day programme that prison officers can protect and support victims of abuse and their children
attend to ensure that they get the appropriate training and bring more perpetrators to justice. That is why we
to deal with women in custody who are pregnant. introduced the landmark Domestic Abuse Bill in July
However, we recognise that there are more things that last year and set out a comprehensive action plan of
we can do, and before the election was called we had non-legislative measures directed to this end. We reaffirmed
already started a fundamental review of pregnant women our commitment to this Bill in the Queen’s Speech on
in custody and the operation of our mother and baby 19 December.
units.
Nickie Aiken: County lines drug gangs are involved in
Carolyn Harris: The current review of the operational the largest exploitation of our children that this country
guidance for the mother and baby units is welcome, but has ever witnessed. Children from all walks of life are
guidance is not enough. Will the Minister agree to meet being groomed by these gangs. Given that women and
me and the charity Birth Companions to discuss the girls are particularly at risk of being abused and exploited,
recommendations in its new birth charter toolkit and what steps are the Government taking to ensure that the
the need for mandatory standards, so that prisons are criminal justice system is doing more to protect our
scrutinised and indeed held to account for perinatal women and girls, particularly using the Modern Slavery
care? Act 2015?

Lucy Frazer: I would be happy to meet the hon. Lady, Wendy Morton: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for
who is very experienced in this issue. Last week I visited raising that point. I know that she brings a huge amount
HMP Bronzefield where I spoke to people on the mother of expertise in this area, which is to be welcomed. This
and baby unit. Birth Companions operates from that Government recognise the risks to girls and young
prison, but I would be very happy to meet the hon. women who are exploited by these ruthless gangs. That
Lady and take advantage of her expertise. is why the Home Office provided £400,000 this financial
year for young people’s advocates in London, Manchester
Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): The Liberal and the west midlands, to work directly with gang-affected
Democrats would scrap all sentences for women apart women and girls, especially if they have been victims or
from the most serious offences. Does my hon. and are at risk of sexual abuse by gangs, including county
learned Friend agree that that creates double standards lines gangs. I can assure her that colleagues in the Home
in the justice system? Office are also working with the police and the Crown
Prosecution Service to take full advantage of powers in
Lucy Frazer: We have to recognise that the treatment the Modern Slavery Act.
of women in prison, their sentences and the treatment
once they are sentenced might be different from men Siobhan Baillie: It takes courage to leave an abusive
and if they are victims of crime. In our female offenders relationship. Living in fear of the next punch or being
strategy, we recognise different treatment; but of course told that you are worthless, stupid or cannot cope alone
people who commit crimes must be punished for them. destroys confidence. When people find the courage,
they often turn to frontline workers and great charities
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I listened such as the Stroud Women’s Refuge. Will my hon.
carefully to the Minister when she said that prison Friend explain what the Department is doing to ensure
officers can access training. Does she agree that it that the people at the frontline of supporting domestic
should be mandatory for prison officers who are working violence victims are prepared to adapt in order to assist
with pregnant women to have such training, and can victims as the new legislation comes in?
she confirm what proportion of prison officers have
already accessed that training? Wendy Morton: My hon. Friend makes some powerful
points. She brings to the Chamber experience in legal
Lucy Frazer: At least one prison officer in each matters, particularly divorce and family law. Our ambition
establishment has already undertaken the training, so is to build a society that has zero tolerance of domestic
there is specialist support, and more women than that abuse and actively empowers victims, communities and
have done it; I would be very happy to provide the professionals to confront it. We know that the legislation
figures in due course. we are introducing will need to be supported by all
871 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 872

those on the frontline, and we have started implementation Tom Tugendhat: The Lord Chancellor speaks very
planning for the Bill with all those who will be affected well on many matters of sentencing, but one of the
by the provisions. things that came up in the manifesto that I would be
particularly interested in hearing him speak about is
Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab): The previous extending sentences for some of the worst offences. On
Government implemented an independent review of page 18 of our manifesto, as he will remember—indeed,
the family courts’ treatment of domestic abuse survivors. I am sure he wrote it—there is a call for extending child
Domestic abuse survivors across the country will be cruelty sentences as well. I would be very grateful if he
watching with interest to see how that review is taken tried to introduce Tony’s law, named after baby Tony
forward. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how that Hudgell, who was so brutally assaulted by his birth
review can make the impact that is necessary? parents before, thank God, he found love with his true
parents, the Hudgell family.
Wendy Morton: I have a very simple answer: absolutely.
I know that the hon. Lady takes an interest in that Robert Buckland: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for
matter. We made a manifesto commitment in this area. his consistent campaigning on this issue. He will remember
We are determined to improve the family justice response my own involvement in getting child cruelty law updated
to vulnerable victims and witnesses, including victims of to cover psychiatric and psychological harm because,
crime. It is worth noting that in May 2019, we announced frankly, it was out of date. I would be happy to talk to
a public call for evidence, led by a panel of experts, to him about it. It is important to remember that there is
gather evidence to help us better understand this. I look an interrelationship between this offence and very serious
forward to meeting her. offences of violence that tragically are inflicted on
children and for which, for example in section 18, the
maximum sentence is life imprisonment.
Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): There is significant
evidence from domestic abuse charities and police forces
Amanda Solloway: The average rate of reoffending in
across the United Kingdom that during major sporting
Derbyshire is 27.1%, which is lower than the average for
events, the number of domestic abuse cases increases.
England and Wales, but my constituents in Derby North
With the Six Nations in a few weeks’ time, what work is
are still rightly concerned about career criminals. What
the Minister doing with the rugby unions across the
plans does the Minister have to bring down reoffending
UK, from the stadiums to television programming and
further both in Derbyshire and in England and Wales?
working with the rugby players themselves, to explain
that domestic abuse is clearly wrong and that there is
never an excuse for it? There needs to be more investment Robert Buckland: I welcome my hon. Friend back.
to tackle the causes of it, which includes these sporting We have missed her for the last two and a half years; it is
events. good to see her back in her place. I pay tribute to her for
her community campaigning in Derby North. She is
absolutely right to raise the issue of career criminals.
Wendy Morton: The hon. Gentleman makes a very Sadly, there is a cohort of people who are very hard to
good point, highlighting the fact that domestic abuse is reach, which is why all options have to be open to
out there in so many different areas, and not always sentencers, including custody. But it will be part of our
where we expect. With regard to rugby, I would need to plans, canvassed in a White Paper ahead of any sentencing
go away and ask a few questions, but I thank him for legislation, to see what extra programmes and measures
raising that in the Chamber and for highlighting the can be taken to deal with that particular cohort of
importance of bringing forward the Domestic Abuse persistent offender.
Bill, to see an end to these abhorrent crimes.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab): For far too many,
Sentencing Policy for Prolific Offenders prison is the worst place to tackle the issue of debt,
substance abuse and mental health problems that led
5. Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): them to commit crimes in the first place. Figures that I
Whether his Department plans to review sentencing uncovered show that nearly half of all women sent to
policy for prolific offenders. [900154] prison were homeless—up 70% in just four years. Many
thousands are stuck in a destructive cycle of short
sentence after short sentence, which costs a fortune,
6. Amanda Solloway (Derby North) (Con): Whether
does nothing to reduce reoffending and fails to keep the
his Department plans to review sentencing policy for
public safe. Is it not about time that the Government
prolific offenders. [900156]
face the facts and, finally, properly invest in alternatives
to prison for less serious offenders?
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice
(Robert Buckland): Mr Speaker, may I welcome you to Robert Buckland: I reassure the hon. Gentleman that
the Chair? This is the first opportunity I have had that is precisely my policy. It is not just about being
formally to do so, other than in the ceremony of tough on crime, though public protection is important;
appointment. it is about being smart on crime as well. Having had
We have already started work to overhaul our sentencing experience as a sentencer, the last thing we need to do,
framework. We know that prolific offenders generally have with respect to him, is to reduce sentencing options and
multiple and complex needs linked to their offending prevent sentencers from imposing short sentences where
behaviour, in particular relating to drugs, alcohol and appropriate. That has to be one of the tools in the box.
mental health. We will be introducing new sentencing laws, Frankly, at the last election, he and his party advanced a
including more robust and effective community penalties. mistaken policy.
873 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 874

Richard Burgon: Unlike the Conservative party, we we cannot wait. We need to get on with change. I
care about what works. The Conservatives like to claim certainly will meet her and talk through the issues with
that they are not ideologues, but the Government’s own her at the earliest opportunity.
evidence shows that 30,000 fewer crimes would be
committed each year if the Government properly invested Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con): My Broxtowe
in alternatives to prison. Does the Justice Secretary constituents have raised the TV licence fee with me and
accept that his Government’s decision to chase headlines asked whether my right hon. and learned Friend has plans
in the right-wing press, rather than acting on the evidence, to decriminalise non-payment of the licence fee and
will leave people right across our country facing higher whether he has made any assessment of how that might
levels of crime? Is it not time that he acted on his own impact the volume of cases brought before the magistrates.
Department’s evidence and put an end to ineffective
super-short prison sentences? Robert Buckland: May I welcome my hon. Friend to
this House? He and I have known each other for a
Robert Buckland: It is a bit rich to be lectured about number of years and have campaigned together, and he
ideology and an ideological approach by the hon. will make an outstanding advocate for the people of
Gentleman. After nearly 20 years in practice and now Broxtowe. With regard to the issue of television licences,
over 30 years’ experience of the criminal justice system, we believe that there is a case to examine decriminalisation.
the approach that I and my team will be taking will be a About one in 12 cases in the magistrates courts are
multi-layered approach that will emphasise the importance taken up with television licence default. We want to
of protecting the public and making our streets safer, consult on the matter, take evidence and see whether
while at the same time increasing the sentencing options there is a better way forward.
on community orders to deal with the drivers of less
serious crimes such as drug addiction, alcohol addiction, Staffing at Courts: Access to Justice
family relationships and accommodation. We understand
it, we absolutely get the point and that is what we are 7. Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): What
going to be getting on with. assessment he has made of the effect of trends in the
level of staffing at courts on access to justice. [900157]
Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): One of the
areas of sentencing policy that has already been reviewed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice
and consulted on is the whole question of death by (Chris Philp): The hon. Member will be aware that the
dangerous driving, particularly when drugs are involved, court system is in the middle of a reform programme,
such as in the tragic case of my constituent, Bryony whose objectives are to make it more efficient, of course,
Hollands. The previous Government committed to legislate but also to improve the user experience and access to
on this issue to lengthen sentences in certain circumstances. justice. Despite the intended and planned reduction in
This is not in the Queen’s Speech. Are this Government Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service headcount,
committed to legislate and, if so, when? I believe that access to justice has been maintained, not
least through the very widespread use now of online
Robert Buckland: I thank my right hon. Friend for platforms to access justice, such as issuing and replying
raising that point. I have met in this place families of to civil money claims online, entering and replying to
victims of this appalling crime and worked with hon. minor pleas online, and online probate applications and
Members across the House on the issue. I want to get on uncontested divorce cases. So I am satisfied that access
with it. The commitment remains absolutely crystal to justice is being maintained throughout the court
clear. I very much hope that we can have a vehicle to do reform process.
that. I am going to be doing a sentencing Bill this year;
that could be one vehicle. I want to get on with this as Christian Matheson: That reform programme, which
soon as possible. We will have the time and the support I read as court closures, is creating delays, but there are
of the Government to change the law in the right further delays in respect of the administrative staff who
direction. are supporting the courts: for example, I am told that in
Chester and other courts CPS court caseworkers are
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): At the moment, now having to manage maybe three cases at once, with
there exists a loophole in the law that allows prolific all the resultant delays that that brings about. So will
sexual offenders to groom 16 and 17-year-olds with the Minister look at the levels of administrative and
impunity. The independent inquiry into child sexual support staff working behind the scenes to keep these
abuse, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty things moving, because at the moment we are having
to Children, the Church of England, the Offside delays of up to two years in Chester?
Trust and the all-party group on safeguarding in faith
settings are all calling on the Government to close that Chris Philp: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his
loophole to protect children. Will the Minister please follow-up question. Questions concerning CPS staff
meet me to explain why the Government have not acted levels are a matter for the Attorney General, but I can
thus far? tell him that substantially larger amounts of money are
going into the CPS—£85 million is going in over two
Robert Buckland: Again, I pay tribute to the hon. years—to hire more staff. Also, innovations such as the
Lady for her consistent campaigning on these issues; we common platform—the online system for handling criminal
have worked together on them over many years. I am cases—will start to be rolled out very shortly, by which I
interested in the overall issue of grooming because it mean in the next few weeks. So besides putting more
affects not only children but adults with learning disabilities. money into the CPS, we are using the online system to
The Law Commission is looking at this issue now, but make the staff working there more effective and efficient.
875 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 876

Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): May I make recommendations that restore people’s trust in
welcome you to the Chair, Mr Speaker, not just as a our democracy and the institutions that underpin it. No
neighbouring constituency MP, but as a man who is decisions have been made yet on the appointment of
making Chorley very famous? Normally, it is famous such a body, its scope or composition. I will update the
for the Frederick’s ice cream parlour, but with you House in due course.
becoming the Speaker Chorley is now even more well
known. Rosie Duffield: A key ongoing concern for public law
The fire sale of our courts and deep cuts to our practitioners remains the accountability of constitutional
justice system have created a perfect storm as courts are processes and safeguards. To what extent will the
left sitting empty even while sitting days are cut. The commission include consultation with relevant external
Government’s own statistics show that on average serious professions, such as the legal profession, and will they
cases in the Crown court are taking 133 days longer to be invited to have substantial input and proper scrutiny?
move from the offence to completion than in 2010,
leaving victims waiting months and months more for Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady asks a very proper
their day in court. That is not good enough. Will the question. Indeed, I would envisage the body taking
Minister commit to providing proper investment in evidence from third parties, outside organisations and
courts and court staff and promise to end the reckless civic society more generally to provide a thorough
closure programme? evidence base before any recommendations are made.

Chris Philp: I had not heard of the fame of the Margaret Ferrier: May I take this opportunity to
Chorley ice cream parlour, but perhaps I should add it welcome you to your place, Mr Speaker?
to my list of recess destinations. [Interruption.] The Following the Prorogation case, both the Prime Minister
Lord Chancellor says he is going to come along as well. and the Attorney General have hinted that the judicial
On the question of Crown courts sitting, we need to appointment process might change. Will the Justice
bear in mind that, as reported by the crime survey, the Secretary confirm whether that will be considered by
most reliable measure of criminal offending, over the the commission?
past nine years there has been a significant reduction in
the total number of criminal offences, from about 9.5 million Robert Buckland: The commission will look at a
offences in 2010 to about 6.5 million offences today. range of issues. I think I have made my position about
That is a very welcome 30% reduction under this the independence of the judiciary and the integrity of
Conservative Government, so of course, bearing in the appointments process very clear. It is nobody’s wish,
mind the reduction in the number of criminal offences, I think on either side of this House, to see political
one would expect to have fewer sitting days. However, influence being brought to bear on the appointment of
we keep the question of Crown court sitting days under judges. It is important to remember that we do not have
continual review. Just a few weeks ago, my right hon. a constitutional court, or a US-style system in this
and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor increased the country and it is not something I would wish to see
number of Crown court sitting days in this current replicated here.
financial year by 700 to ensure that we keep working
through the outstanding case load. The outstanding Martyn Day: It has been reported that the commission
case load is at its lowest level since 2001. We will of is expected to look at prerogative powers. Currently
course keep the question of Crown court sitting days their use can be challenged in the courts, which led to
under review for the next financial year—the one starting the ruling against the Prime Minister’s Prorogation of
in a few weeks— and, if necessary, we will of course Parliament. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman
increase Crown court sitting days. agree that it is imperative that the courts still have
jurisdiction to look at prerogative powers?
Constitution, Democracy and Rights Commission
Robert Buckland: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
for raising an important issue. After the stresses and
8. Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab): What discussions strains we have all seen the constitution being put under
he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the criteria for as a result of the tumultuous events of the past few
determining the composition of the Constitution, years, it would be wrong of the Government not to
Democracy and Rights Commission. [900158] pause, take stock and look at the general constitutional
position through the lens of the public because it is all
18. Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) about public confidence and the confidence the public
(SNP): What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues have in this place being the ultimate arbiter of our
on the appointment of a Constitution, Democracy and democracy, which is key. But we will take time and do it
Rights Commission. [900169] in a measured way. I very much hope and expect that
the commission will come up with some evidence-based
23. Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP): solutions.
What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues
on the appointment of a Constitution, Democracy and Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and
Rights Commission. [900174] Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): Members have every right to
be concerned about what the Government are up to
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice with the commission, given their previous noises about
(Robert Buckland): Discussions with Cabinet colleagues human rights, judicial appointments, prerogative powers,
are at an early stage, but I can say that we want a judicial review and much, much more. Those concerns
commission or similar body to examine the issues and are shared not just among Members, but across civil
877 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 878

society and beyond. Does the Secretary of State agree sexual violence advisers—because one of the issues is
that in any such commission Scotland’s perspective and rape victims dropping out of the process before the case
experiences must be properly and independently represented, reaches court. I hope that in the upcoming Budget and
and that any changes proposed to the competences of spending review, there is more we can do.
the Scottish Government and Parliament must have the
consent of those institutions? Rachel Reeves: In West Yorkshire, the number of rapes
reported increased by 25% last year, but just 4.4% of
Robert Buckland: I am very much aware of the important those cases resulted in someone being charged. The
devolution aspect of this issue. It is about more than same is true across the country, so what are the Government
devolution, of course—the Scottish legal and judicial doing to ensure that the criminal justice system is properly
system was never devolved because it was always separate, resourced and that it does not let down victims and add
and even when we did not have a Scottish Parliament, it to the trauma that they have already experienced?
had a separate legislative framework that was legislated
for in this House. I fully understand the balance that
needs to be kept and I take on board the hon. Member’s Chris Philp: As I said, we are putting 20,000 extra
comments. officers into the system and £85 million into the CPS,
and we are increasing expenditure on rape centres and
ISVAs, although I am sure that in those areas, there is
Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): It more we can do. There is also a review urgently under
is a pleasure to see you back in the Chair in this way to see what further steps we can take, but I believe
Parliament, Mr Speaker. I very much welcome what the that the actions that I have outlined, which are taking
Lord Chancellor said about the independence of the place as we speak, will move us back in a happier
judiciary. That is fundamental to this country’s international direction.
reputation and we should set at rest any suggestion that
that should ever be compromised. Given the wide-ranging
nature of the commission, will he also consider that it Court Proceedings: Proportion Covered by
may be beneficial to have, serving as members of the Court Reporters
commission, experienced former members of the judiciary
who have the integrity and independence of thought
that would increase public respect and regard for the 10. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): What
outcome that we all wish to see? recent estimate he has made of the proportion of court
proceedings covered by court reporters. [900160]
Robert Buckland: I congratulate my hon. Friend on
his recent honour, which is thoroughly deserved after a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice
lifetime in public service, both here and in other elected (Chris Philp): We at the Ministry of Justice do not track
assemblies. His suggestions are well made. I am already or hold data on the number of reporters who report on
having a number of discussions with ministerial colleagues court proceedings, but I am sad to say that anecdotal
and thinking very deeply about the range of expertise evidence suggests that in line with the general decline in
and individuals that we need, and the diversity of that local reporting, the reporting of local courts will have
panel, so that we make sure that the commission, or the declined as well. When my right hon. Friend was Secretary
committee, is in the best possible place to gather evidence of State at the Department for Culture, Media and
and come up with measured, sensible reforms. Sport, he was instrumental in making sure, at the BBC’s
charter renewal, that the local democracy reporting
Rapes Reported to the Police: Number of scheme provided £8 million a year to get local reporters
Suspects Charged into the courts. I congratulate him on that step and
hope that there is more we can do along those lines in
future.
9. Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): What plans his
Department has to reduce the disparity between the
number of rapes reported to the police and the number Mr Whittingdale: I thank my hon. Friend, and I
of suspects charged with that offence. [900159] thank the Minister of State, my hon. and learned Friend
the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy Frazer),
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice for the work that she has done in this area. Does he
(Chris Philp): The hon. Member is right to raise this share my view of how important it is that court proceedings
issue. It is extremely serious and, frankly, far too few are properly reported by trained journalists so that
reported cases are being progressed into the criminal justice can be seen to be done? Will he continue to work
justice system, so I entirely agree with and accept the with the Society of Editors, the News Media Association
premise of her question. The Government are taking and others to see what further measures can be taken to
action in this area. The extra 20,000 police officers will achieve that?
greatly help to get rape victims through the system and
to get their cases into court. I referenced earlier the Chris Philp: I strongly concur and can certainly give
extra £85 million for the Crown Prosecution Service. A my right hon. Friend the commitment he asks for.
great deal of that will be targeted towards helping to Certainly from the perspective of Her Majesty’s Courts
progress those often very complicated rape cases. As and Tribunal Service, staff are given training to facilitate
recently as last September, the Under-Secretary of State access by journalists, and the Ministry is currently
for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge- giving very active and relatively imminent consideration
Brownhills (Wendy Morton), provided an extra £5 million to ways of making sure that court decisions and proceedings
of funding for rape centres and ISVAs—independent are brought more directly to the public.
879 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 880

Human Rights Framework: Reform whole of the United Kingdom can benefit from
improvements and rebalancing, and that applies equally
11. Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton East) to the people of Scotland. I hold out an olive branch to
(SNP): What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues him today. I want us to work together on these issues.
on reforming the UK’s human rights framework. We can achieve far more working together than by
[900161] pursuing pointless independence referendums.
Topical Questions
20. Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP):
What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues
on reforming the UK’s human rights framework. T1. [900175] Mr Shailesh Vara (North West
[900171] Cambridgeshire) (Con): If he will make a statement on
his departmental responsibilities.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice
(Robert Buckland): I have been discussing this issue The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice
with my Cabinet colleagues and will continue to do so. (Robert Buckland): Prison officers are some of our
The United Kingdom is committed to protecting and finest public servants, and I have had the honour and
respecting human rights and will continue to champion pleasure of meeting many of them, not just as a Minister,
them both here and abroad. As set out in our manifesto, but as a practising member of the Bar. The incident at
after Brexit we need to look at the broader aspects of HMP Whitemoor was quickly resolved thanks to the
our constitution, including the balance between the bravery and professionalism of the staff who intervened.
rights of individuals and effective government. Their courage in protecting others cannot be overstated.
HMP Liverpool is driving prison officer safety through
Angela Crawley: I welcome you to your place, an increased focus on key work as part of our offender
Mr Speaker. management in custody investment, through a new
drugs strategy and through the improved use of data to
Before the general election, the Conservative manifesto understand the reasons for violence, but we recognise
promised to update the Human Rights Act 1998. Since that more needs to be done, which is why were are
its introduction, the Act has successfully protected countless introducing PAVA, a synthetic pepper spray, to protect
citizens across the UK from human rights abuses, so staff from incidents of serious violence or where they
can the Secretary of State tell me which specific aspects are in imminent or perceived risk of serious violence.
of the Act need updating?
Mr Vara: Would my right hon. and learned Friend
Robert Buckland: I refer the hon. Lady to the answer kindly update the House on the ambitious reform
I gave in the context of the constitutional commission. programme by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal Service?
Updating Acts is something we do regularly in this
place. The Human Rights Act is now just over 20 years Robert Buckland: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s
old. Aspects of its operation have worked very well; work when he was courts Minister. As he knows, the
others deserve a further look—for example, the operation programme that he helped to spearhead is already
of the margin of appreciation and how Strasbourg case improving both access to justice and efficiency. More
law is adhered to. All those issues are relevant and than 300,000 people have now used new online services
material to the work of the commission. established to enhance access, such as to make civil
money claims, to apply for divorce or to make a plea to
Deidre Brock: Christine Bell, professor of constitutional low-level criminal offences. Last year alone, more than
law at Edinburgh Law School, has said that 65,000 civil money claims were made online, with nine
“any unilateral repeal of the HRA by Westminster would…violate out of 10 users saying they were satisfied or very satisfied
the Sewel Convention”. with the service.
Does the Secretary of State agree? If not, why not?
Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab): I, too, welcome
Robert Buckland: The hon. Lady will remember that you to your place, Mr Speaker. Let me also align myself
our manifesto talked about updating the Act, not repealing with the comments of both the Secretary of State and
it, so her question is literally academic. the shadow Secretary of State about staff at HMP
Whitemoor.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Our probation service should keep us all safe, but this
Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): The Human Rights Act is morning another damning report said that understaffing
also part of the constitutional backbone of devolution, in a national probation service that is dealing with the
so again will the Secretary of State agree that there most serious offenders is putting public safety at risk.
should be no change to that Act, given all its implications Those shortages leave staff overworked and unable to
for devolved competences, without the express agreement conduct due diligence, force them to take on too many
of the Scottish Parliament and Government? Otherwise, cases, and are a direct consequence of the Government’s
what sort of democracy are we living in if one Parliament decision to break up the probation service, so will the
can change the competences of another with such ease Minister commit herself to returning staffing across the
and little respect? service to safe levels in order to undo the serious damage
they have caused?
Robert Buckland: As I said to the hon. Gentleman in
a previous answer, I am in the spirit of working The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lucy
constructively with a fellow Parliament and fellow Frazer): I welcome this morning’s report from the
parliamentarians. I want to ensure a situation where the inspectorate of probation. Its publication is timely,
881 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 882

given the changes that we are making to create a more T3. [900177] Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab):
unified probation service. That transition has already For some weird, inexplicable reason, the Government
taken place in Wales. have a dangerous and flawed obsession with handing
Having read the report, I am pleased to note that it huge contracts to private firms to run our prisons. I
says that leadership is good throughout the service. Of appreciate that the Secretary of State may not heed my
course we need to recruit more probation officers, and call for prisons to be returned to public ownership, but
we are doing that—800 officers who are currently being will he at the very least implement a moratorium on
trained will come on board imminently—but we also private prisons until an independent review has
recognise that as we recruit more police officers, we ascertained whether they are indeed more violent?
need to recruit more prison and probation officers as
well, and we are taking steps to do so. Robert Buckland: I listened carefully to what the hon.
Gentleman has said, and I have to say, with respect to
T4. [900178] Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): I him, that the characterisation of “public good, private
am delighted that Finn’s law has received Royal Assent, bad”—or, indeed, vice versa—is wrong. There are plenty
but can the Minister update us on when the Animal of examples of privately run prisons that are more than
Welfare (Sentencing) Bill, also known as Finn’s law passing muster with the inspectorate, and are doing an
part 2, will return to the House? excellent job. I have always believed in a mixed approach,
and I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that will continue.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice I will base my decision on hard evidence rather than on
(Chris Philp): I thank my hon. Friend for his tireless blind ideology in which, I am afraid, his Front Benchers
campaigning on animal welfare. I am, of course, delighted have indulged far too much in recent years.
that Finn’s law reached the statute book last year, and
increasing the maximum sentence for animal cruelty T6. [900180] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): One
from six months to five years is a manifesto commitment of the ways of preventing people leaving prison from
which we intend to deliver as quickly as possible. It reoffending is to ensure that they have a secure roof
builds on the fact that—I am proud to say—this country over their head when they leave. Under the Homelessness
has among the world’s best animal welfare provisions, Reduction Act 2017, prison governors have a statutory
including a tough ivory ban, CCTV in slaughterhouses, duty to ensure that those leaving prison do indeed have
and a ban on the commercial third-party sale of puppies that secure home. Will my right hon. Friend update the
and kittens. House on the progress being made on ensuring that
prison governors carry out their statutory duty?
T2. [900176] Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston)
(Lab): According to the most recent figures, tens
Lucy Frazer: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the
of thousands of people still have not had their
work that he did on the Homelessness Reduction Act,
employment tribunal fees refunded, although the
which has been very effective. I am pleased to be able to
Supreme Court declared them unlawful two and a half
tell him that the latest statistics show that more than a
years ago. I really do not understand why it is taking so
quarter of the referrals to local authorities under the
long. Names, addresses and contact details must be
duty to refer were made by either prison or probation
submitted in the case of all tribunal claims. Will the
services. However, we need to work more broadly as
Minister please explain what the problem is?
well to ensure that when offenders come out of prison
they have somewhere to go. We have a pilot with the
Chris Philp: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. Following
Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government
the 2017 Unison case, employment tribunal fees are due
that involves a two-year wraparound service. When an
to be refunded. The programme is under way, and many
ex-offender comes out, they are helped to find a home
tens of thousands of fees have already been refunded.
and to understand the duties of their tenancy so that
The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that the Ministry
they can stay in their home and manage it over the
of Justice is looking carefully at the position to ensure
two-year period.
that everyone who is eligible for a refund does indeed
receive one.
T7. [900182] Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab):
T5. [900179] Mr Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con): Does Vauxhall Law Centre in Liverpool is one of only 42 law
the Minister agree that the successful unification of centres still in existence. It enables working-class people
offender supervision services in Wales under the national to defend their fundamental right of access to justice, a
probation service is a positive change that will benefit right that is currently under attack from Government
victims and the wider public? cuts. What urgent action are the Government taking to
guarantee the future of law centres in Liverpool and
Lucy Frazer: My hon. Friend—whom I welcome to across the country?
his place—is absolutely right. We have looked at the
system and recognised that it could be improved, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice
we have made those changes in Wales, where the national (Wendy Morton): I welcome the new Member to his
probation service has taken responsibility for supervising place on the Opposition Benches. We recognise the
all offenders. I look forward very much to visiting Wales valuable work that law centres do in our local communities
on Thursday to see how those changes have been around the country, and we support them through
implemented. I understand that the transition has proceeded grant funding and legal aid contracts. In two of the
very smoothly, and I look forward to speaking to staff early visits that I made when I went into the Ministry of
there in order to ensure that when the same transition Justice, I visited the law centre in Southwark and another
takes place in England, it too will proceed smoothly. in south-west London to gain a deeper understanding
883 Oral Answers 14 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 884

of the tremendous work they do. He can rest assured fair and effective use of stop and search remains one of
that we support our law centres and the work they the most powerful tools that the police have at their
do, to ensure that the people who need support can disposal. With body-worn cameras now in use, some of
receive it. the issues to do with communities feeling disrespected
have been largely addressed. However, this is only part
T9. [900184] Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) of the battle against knife crime, as the hon. Lady says,
(Con): I am sure that the Government believe in and I pay tribute to her work as chair of the knife crime
leading by example and would want to emulate, and APPG. Preventive work and work in schools are important
indeed go further than, companies such as Halfords, as well.
Greggs and Timpson in employing ex-offenders. Since
the Government banned the box, what increase in the Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Do
employment of ex-offenders has there been across Ministers agree that the crime of burglary has devastating
Government and the wider public sector? effects on those who have been burgled? Will they
increase the sentences available for people who have
Robert Buckland: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for committed that offence?
his work both as a Minister in this Department and as a
campaigner on this issue. I share his approach to these Robert Buckland: My hon. Friend is right to remind
issues. Since we launched the going forward into us that burglary is a crime not just against property, but
employment scheme in January 2018, we have recruited against the wellbeing of people whose homes are violated.
29 ex-offenders who are currently in post in civil service He will be glad to know that average sentences for
roles, with a further 20 due to start in post shortly. I burglary have increased over the years from an average
commend the work being done on Ban the Box, the of 21 months to 28 months. I will have a further
private sector community initiative, which I actively conversation with him about this, but I assure him that
support. sentences are going in the right direction when it comes
to dwelling house burglaries.
Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab): When the Prime
Minister was Mayor of London, the number of stop
and searches steadily declined, but they became more Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): Reading jail is a
effective and intelligence-led. As a result, the arrest rate hugely important historical site. It is the burial place of
significantly increased. Now that the Prime Minister King Henry I of England and also where Oscar Wilde
has decided to increase stop and search, the reverse has was incarcerated. The building is currently up for sale
happened. They are less intelligence-led, and arrest by the Ministry of Justice. Will the Secretary of State or
rates are declining. Does the Secretary of State agree the prisons Minister agree to meet me before any decision
with me and with the all-party parliamentary group on is made on the sale and also to meet local campaigners
knife crime that stop and search is an important tool, and representatives?
but it is not the only answer, and that a long-term public
health approach that puts prevention at the heart of Lucy Frazer: I am pleased to have already spoken to
policing is the way to tackle knife crime? the hon. Gentleman and my right hon. Friend the
Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) about this
Chris Philp: I agree that stop and search is a vital part matter. As the hon. Gentleman knows, bids are already
of our fight against knife crime. When the use of stop in, and they are commercially sensitive. If it is appropriate
and search was dramatically reduced between about for me to meet him, I will be happy to do so, together
2014 and 2018, we saw a reduction in the number of with his neighbour.
convictions and, shortly afterwards, an increase in
the number of offences. Leading police and crime Mr Speaker: Before we move on, I advise the House
commissioners, including Jane Kennedy, the former that we will have 45 minutes for the urgent question and
Labour MP and Minister who is now the police and 45 minutes for the statement, so please let us help each
crime commissioner in Merseyside, have said that the other out.
885 14 JANUARY 2020 Flybe 886

Flybe I welcomed the comments from my right hon.

Friend the Prime Minister this morning about regional
connectivity. He specifically referenced Northern Ireland,
12.31 pm and Southampton airport has a thriving route in and
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) out of Belfast, not to mention Glasgow and Edinburgh,
(Con) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State with onward routes to Aberdeen. It is a hub that serves
for Transport what support has been made available to the whole United Kingdom.
Flybe, its passengers, and the regional airports that I do not wish to put the Minister in a corner, but I
facilitate many of its routes, and whether he will make a hope that he may be able to expand a little on what
statement. might be achieved with regard to air passenger duty,
which has long been a concern to airlines and airport
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport operators. We leave the European Union at the end of
(Paul Maynard): I thank my right hon. Friend for this month, which might give us some opportunity to
raising this matter. She is a strong advocate for her local consider the freedoms that there could be from state aid
airport. rules. I do not expect the Minister to make any sweeping
announcements from the Dispatch Box, but I hope he
Let me stress that Flybe remains a going concern. and his officials are closely considering it.
Flights continue as scheduled, and passengers should
continue to go to the airport as usual. I must also What powers does the Minister have to protect the
emphasise that regional air carriers and airports are key strategic routes operated by Flybe and, of course, to
vital to the Government, playing a key role in providing protect its staff? Flybe employs 200 people at Southampton,
connectivity between communities, regions and nations and the airport employs some 900 people. A far wider
across the United Kingdom. supply chain relies on a thriving regional airport with a
functioning operator.
The speculation surrounding Flybe relates to commercial
We have an opportunity to use every lever of government
matters. The Government do not comment on the financial
to make sure that regional connectivity is maintained to
affairs of or speculation surrounding private companies.
ensure that businesses can operate smoothly and that
We are working hard, but there are commercial limits
people can move around the country seamlessly. I seek
on what a Government can do to rescue any firm.
reassurance from my hon. Friend that he is pulling all
Be in no doubt, however, that we understand Flybe’s those levers.
important role in delivering connectivity across the
entire United Kingdom. This Government are committed Paul Maynard: I thank my right hon. Friend once
to ensuring that the country has the regional connectivity again for working hard on behalf of Southampton
that it needs. That is part of our agenda of uniting and airport. I am acutely conscious of the fact that some
levelling up the whole country. We do not have good 94% of Southampton’s passengers are Flybe passengers,
enough infrastructure in many areas, and people do not and she makes an important series of points about the
feel they have a chance to get to the opportunity areas airport’s importance to her region. Indeed, I gather the
with high-skilled and high-paid jobs. That is what this airport is also important to inbound tourism.
Government are addressing now. My right hon. Friend tries to tempt me on to the
I hope the House will appreciate that I regret that I topic of APD. It may help the House if I make it clear
am not able to go into further detail at this stage, but that Transport Ministers never comment on air passenger
I will update the House further when it is appropriate to duty, which is a matter for the Treasury, and I do not
do so. intend to change that now. I will not be making any
comments on air passenger duty.
Caroline Nokes: Flybe is, as the Minister said, an
important regional airline, serving the UK market for Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I congratulate
business and leisure travel. I must confess from the the right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton
outset that Southampton airport sits on the boundary North (Caroline Nokes) on securing this important
between my constituency of Romsey and Southampton urgent question. It is agreed on both sides of the House
North and the Eastleigh constituency, but it employs that Flybe, a great British brand, is a hugely important
many of my constituents and, of course, serves the regional airline that provides a vital lifeline and connectivity
much wider region. It is a crucial part of Hampshire’s for many of our communities. News of its difficulties
connectivity, located adjacent to the mainline to London will worry workers and passengers alike.
Waterloo and the M27 motorway, and it serves the There is clearly a case for Government intervention,
cruise terminal at Southampton. It is in every sense a and I trust the Government will learn the lessons from
transport hub for the south-east, and about 90% of their inept response to the Thomas Cook collapse,
flights out of Southampton are run by Flybe. which saw other nation states being prepared to step in
I know that my hon. Friend the Minister is working while this Government sat on their hands and contacted
hard on this issue, for which I sincerely thank him. He the company only after it was too late. We cannot have a
has been diligent in keeping me updated and has been in repeat of that debacle. Flybe’s workers and passengers
close contact with colleagues across the country who deserve better.
believe that the Government need to find a practical What restructuring plan has been agreed as part of
and pragmatic solution to the current reported difficulties, the Government’s support, and what discussions is the
as indeed I do. It is a sensitive time for the company, but Secretary of State having with the trade unions Unite
my questions today are not criticisms. We are seeking and the British Airline Pilots Association? Will the
reassurance from the Government that solutions can Minister and the Secretary of State commit to ensuring
be found. those unions are fully engaged in the process?
887 Flybe 14 JANUARY 2020 Flybe 888

[Andy McDonald] people and small businesses in Cornwall that rely on the
connection that Flybe provides, both across the whole
The Government must avoid simply feathering the country and, through Heathrow, internationally. May I
nests of the new consortium, including Virgin Atlantic therefore urge the Minister to do all he can to ensure
and the Stobart group. Surely they knew the scale of the that Flybe is able to continue operating? If he is able to
financial challenges facing them when they acquired use his influence to cut APD, he will have my full
the business. What was known to the new owners at the support in doing so. Will he confirm that the public
time of their acquisition? Prior to the acquisition, did service obligation route to Heathrow is not dependent
they seek assurances on Government assistance and an on a particular airline and could be easily transferred
indication of the Government’s intentions for APD? should the worst happen to Flybe?
What discussions is the Minister having with the industry
about transitioning to greater sustainability, including Paul Maynard: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for
electric flights, and about whether current plans are his comments. As he will know, some 74% of Newquay’s
compatible with reducing emissions? passengers use Flybe, so Newquay is also highly dependent
on this airline, not least for a lot of its inbound tourism.
Slashing air passenger duty across the board would He commented on the PSO flights. We will continue to
make a mockery of the Government’s supposed work with the county council in Cornwall, the joint
commitment to climate emissions. It would also benefit funder of those flights, to make sure that that service
a wealthy minority. Some 70% of UK flights are made continues into the future.
by a wealthy 15% of the population, with the great
majority of people not flying at all. Aviation is set to be Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): First,
the biggest source of emissions by 2050, with Ministers may I ask what impact assessment has been undertaken
planning for demand to double. on the effect of losing connectivity between Scotland
The Government’s own advisory body on climate and various UK regions if Flybe does go down? How
change has said that the UK is “way off track” to meet many of these routes have been assessed as lifeline
its climate change targets. Rather than proposing to routes? What assessment have his Government made of
slash aviation tax, will the Minister not listen to the the Flybe Heathrow slots if Flybe does not operate and
recommendation of the Committee on Climate Change of what that would mean for future connectivity? We
for a frequent flyer levy that would remove people who know that Flybe operates outwith ATOL—the air travel
fly just once a year from taxation while making wealthy organiser’s licence scheme—so what consumer protections
frequent flyers pay more? are available for customers booking with these types of
I encourage the Minister to do all he can to support carriers? What changes do the Government propose to
Flybe and its workforce, and to protect passengers, but bring in to protect consumers? Where are we on the
can he assure the House that his Government will proposed legislation changes promised after the collapse
simultaneously and fully accept their responsibility to of Monarch and then Thomas Cook? Given that there
protect the planet? was no Government intervention previously, why are
they now looking at doing something—we do support
Paul Maynard: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, Flybe continuing to operate? Is that not firm proof that
particularly as we agree on the importance of Flybe to the Government need a comprehensive plan, rather
the country. The Government are working hard to find than reacting with short-term fixes? What additional
what they can do to support the company. I cannot and supports will the UK Government bring forward across
will not provide a running commentary on those discussions. the entire sector that they have ignored to date?
He will note that the Secretary of State is not here to Will the Minister confirm that the Government do
answer the urgent question, as he is having discussions not ring-fence APD moneys for tackling climate change?
in Whitehall and is working hard on behalf of the What message does talk of delaying revenues or reducing
airline. APD send out about the Government’s willingness to
tackle climate change?
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the environmental
aspects. Domestic aviation constitutes 4% of UK aviation’s What is the deadline for Government action, because
overall emissions. He mentioned the advice of the this is going to create further market uncertainty and
Committee on Climate Change, which it gave to us just will hit future bookings for Flybe?
before the election, and we are looking forward to Paul Maynard: Let me start by reinforcing the fact
consulting on it imminently. In addition, the transport that Flybe remains a going concern; flights continue to
decarbonisation plan is coming soon. take off and land, and passengers should go to the
We are acutely conscious of the fact that aviation has airport.
an important role to play in meeting our net zero target I very much take the hon. Gentleman’s point about
by 2050, and I am working very hard on finding the the importance of Flybe, not just to the regions of
answers to those questions. England but to the nation of Scotland and, not least,
the oil and gas sector out of Aberdeen—I genuinely
Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): Thank understand that. He makes an observation about PSO
you for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker, flights, both within Scotland and to London. We are
which I know is important to many of us. I thank the looking at PSO flights policy more widely and whether
Minister for his constructive engagement with me and we need to consider further options.
many other colleagues on this matter. The hon. Gentleman mentioned slots at Heathrow,
It is difficult to overstate the importance of Flybe to and he will be aware that slots are a matter for the
Cornwall Airport Newquay and the wider Cornish independent ACL—Airport Coordination Limited—body.
economy. Contrary to the characterisation from the No decisions have been taken on the use of further slots
Opposition Front Bencher, it is many ordinary working at Heathrow in this regard.
889 Flybe 14 JANUARY 2020 Flybe 890

The hon. Gentleman mentions protection for consumers. Paul Maynard: I recognise what my hon. Friend
Those who are on a package are covered by ATOL, but, says. Our network of regional airfields is crucial to our
as he will know, there is separate travel insurance and regional connectivity. I am acutely conscious of that
those who pay by credit card will have consumer protections. and I am looking at all policy options.
We continue to review consumer protection more widely
within the travel sector. He will also know that in the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Over
Queen’s Speech we announced the airline insolvency the coming months it will become ever more apparent
Bill, which will come forward shortly. that tackling the climate emergency means rapid changes
to high-carbon sectors and that aviation must decrease,
Once again, I reiterate that I cannot offer the running
not increase. Instead of bailing out polluting companies
commentary the hon. Gentleman looks for on what is
every time there is a crisis, and, in this instance, doing so
occurring within Government.
in a way that is going to increase emissions, does the
Minister agree that the Government should instead be
Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): First, let me thank
developing just transition plans for high-carbon industries,
the Minister for keeping me informed of developments
including retraining workers in new sustainable jobs,
as they have gone on and reassure him that, despite the
involving unions and local communities, and, in this
shadow Secretary of State’s characterisation, it is not
case, enhancing rail connectivity?
the richest 15% of people in my constituency who use
this vital service. Some 94% of flights out of Southampton Paul Maynard: I think the hon. Lady overlooks what
are operated by Flybe, meaning that any loss of service we seek to do to ensure that aviation plays its role in
will have a detrimental impact on the local economy reaching net zero by 2050. As I have said, we will
and jobs in my constituency. Given this Government’s consult on our response to the Committee on Climate
pledge to back prosperity across the whole United Change. The Minister with responsibility for future
Kingdom, will he reassure me that he will do anything transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk
and everything necessary to keep this airline afloat for (George Freeman), is working hard looking at how to
my constituents and local jobs in Eastleigh? diversify the plane market, and we are bringing forward
a transport decarbonisation plan. In the Department,
Paul Maynard: I reassure my hon. Friend that we are we are informed with good ideas about how we can
working hard on behalf of Flybe and Southampton decarbonise transport.
airport to find solutions wherever we can. He is right to
point out the importance of improving regional connectivity Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con): As my hon.
across all modes, as the Prime Minister said today. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve
Double) ably said, the links between London and Cornwall
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): There is something are vital to many of our constituents, not just in his
of a pattern developing. We have had the collapse of constituency but across Cornwall. Those links are important
Monarch and of Thomas Cook, and now the potential for the many small businesses that access contracts and
collapse of Flybe. When, in the last Parliament, the come to London for business meetings, but also for net
Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee inbound tourism when people fly in from other countries
took evidence on the collapse of Thomas Cook, the to visit London and come down to Cornwall for a few
evidence we heard from the business and the trade days’ break. I ask the Minister to do all he can to ensure
unions was the same; they said that the Government that the link remains.
were asleep at the wheel. What lessons have the Government
learned from that collapse? What are they doing to Paul Maynard: My hon. Friend is quite right to point
ensure that passengers are protected, that critical routes out the importance of the links between Newquay and
that connect regional towns and cities are supported London, not least for tourism. That is why we set out
and that the taxpayer does not end up footing the bill the public service obligation, and it is why we will carry
for another corporate failure? on working with the county council to ensure its
continuation.
Paul Maynard: I hear what the hon. Lady says. I am Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab):
sure she knows that across Europe as a whole the airline The new owners of Flybe got the airline for a song,
sector is a highly volatile market. I do not accept her destroying shareholder value. They must not be allowed
comparison at all. We continue to work hard and I have to profit from the public sector through subsidy for
made comments already about public service obligation their failure. The Minister has made clear his position
flights. on APD—he will not comment—but does he recognise
that that tax is damaging to the economy and costs
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): The Flybe crisis—and jobs? Does he recognise that reports given to the
it is a crisis—could soon become a major disruption for Department for Transport and the Treasury show that
many of my constituents, with half term looming. abolishing air passenger duty would lead to an increase
There is clearly a short-term issue here that I know in tax income and have a beneficial impact on the
Ministers are grappling with; I wish them well and they economy and jobs? Will he look at those reports?
have my support. There is an uneven playing field
around APD and regulations on regional airlines and Paul Maynard: I am certain that the Treasury has
airports, and that has without doubt contributed to heard the hon. Gentleman’s comments loud and clear.
Flybe’s current predicament. Longer term, is there any
appetite within Government to address that and the Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): Many
crippling impact it is having on the regional connectivity airlines that face these types of difficulties would get
that the Minister and the Prime Minister have rightly more certainty and would be more able to get through
referred to? them if they were allowed to continue to operate while
891 Flybe 14 JANUARY 2020 Flybe 892

[Huw Merriman] that will be covered in the transport decarbonisation

plan. I recognise that there are trade-offs to be made; we
in administration. Airlines in the States have done just have to have a balanced approach.
that, and have returned and are now succeeding. Will
the Government look into that type of reform when Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
they press on with the insolvency review, which I hope (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member
will happen in the early part of this Parliament? for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes)
on securing the urgent question and thank the Minister
Paul Maynard: I am sure my hon. Friend will welcome for his response.
the airline insolvency Bill and the work going on, in the The routes that Flybe operates out of Aberdeen
light of the Green Paper, to improve consumer protection International airport are vital to jobs and the local
across the airline sector as a whole. economy in West Aberdeenshire, connecting the energy
capital of Europe, which is Aberdeen, to other energy
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ hubs such as Teesside and Humberside. What work is
Co-op): Many of my constituents work at or travel being done in the Department to make sure that these
from Cardiff airport in the Vale of Glamorgan. They economically vital routes are protected in future?
have already been hit by the collapse of Thomas Cook
and, indeed, by Flybe’s reductions, the removal of its Paul Maynard: My hon. Friend is right to observe, as
base—with the loss of 60 jobs last year—and its cutback I did earlier, the importance of these services to the oil
of routes. Will the Minister explain whether he or the and gas sector in particular. The Department and the
Secretary of State have had conversations directly with CAA as a whole are examining the economic impact of
the Welsh Government, who are obviously crucial in any changes that may occur across all our regional
terms of Cardiff airport’s viability going forward? airports, but our focus is on working hard to ensure that
we get the right result.
Paul Maynard: I am more than aware that some 30%
of Cardiff’s passengers stem from Flybe. I reassure the Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I entirely accept
hon. Gentleman that the Department and the Civil the importance of regional airports to jobs—Bristol
Aviation Authority are in regular touch with all the airport is on my doorstep and I was a director of
devolved Administrations to discuss the ramifications. London Luton airport in my days as a councillor in
Luton—but the fact that the Minister can come to the
Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con):I apologise for my House to answer an urgent question about domestic
raspy tones because of a recent cold. I congratulate flights without mentioning decarbonisation and climate
my right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and change once just shows—[Interruption.] He has mentioned
Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) on securing the them in response to questions but did not mention them
question. in his initial response. He has been prompted to do that.
Flybe is based in my beautiful constituency of East It is not enough to kick it into the long grass and say,
Devon and employs around 2,000 people nationwide, “This is something we’re going to deal with in the
contributing a great deal to our local economy and future.” Decarbonisation and climate change need to be
providing essential transport links. Does the Minister factored into the Minister’s response to the Flybe emergency
agree that it is wrong to politicise the situation with and APD now.
Flybe, as Opposition Members have managed to do so
far, and that work should be done to ensure that this Paul Maynard: I have mentioned decarbonisation at
vital airline continues to serve the south-west and beyond? least three times. I tried to obey Mr Speaker’s instruction
to keep my opening statement brief. I entirely recognise
Paul Maynard: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the importance of decarbonisation, and a significant
his comments. He is right to observe the importance of amount of work is occurring in the Department, between
Flybe in his constituency. I am very much aware that, two Ministers. I ask the hon. Lady to wait to see the
wherever possible, we should work on a cross-party documents when they are produced.
basis when faced with immediate challenges.
Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): Last
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): The year, 30% of all flights from Birmingham airport were
Minister referred to the airline insolvency Bill; will he operated by Flybe, and a lot of employees of the airline
confirm when that legislation will be brought forward? and the airport will be very worried about the current
Many Members have spelled out the importance of situation. Can the Minister reassure me and my constituents
their regional airports and domestic airlines for local that he and the Government are doing everything practically
economies, but what assessment has the Minister made possible that they can do in talks with Flybe to protect
of the future role of domestic aviation in our transport jobs?
networks? How will that fit with the Department’s
decarbonisation plan? Paul Maynard: I recognise the importance of Flybe
to Birmingham airport, one of our key national airports.
Paul Maynard: On both those questions, I am afraid The Government are working hard, as I keep reiterating.
the answer is “Wait and see.” We are looking to bring We are certainly doing our best.
forward the airline insolvency Bill as soon as we can.
We recognise its importance, but it is a complex policy Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): If we are serious
area and there is no silver bullet, so when we bring it about tackling our carbon emissions, we must ensure
forward it has to be right. On the wider issue of how that rail is an attractive and viable alternative to air
decarbonisation fits in and how aviation can play a role, travel, certainly domestically. In places where this is not
893 Flybe 14 JANUARY 2020 Flybe 894

possible—such as the Isle of Man, for obvious reasons—we Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Teesside
must ensure that domestic flights in the UK are green International airport tripled its losses to nearly £6 million
and sustainable. For example, we should use sustainable under the stewardship of the Tees Valley Mayor last
alternatives to kerosene and look at electric low-carbon year—after he had paid tens of millions of pounds of
planes, as have been trialled in Orkney and Shetland. taxpayers’ money for it. Flybe is one of the few airlines
What has the Minister done specifically to ensure that to provide flights from the airport—44% of them—and
UK domestic flights are as friendly as possible to the is critical to the airport’s future and the Mayor’s plans.
environment? The Government failed to intervene when SSI went bust,
they refused to provide Sirius Minerals with a loan
Paul Maynard: As I said earlier, the Minister of State, guarantee to unlock international investment, and they
Department for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member are doing nothing to support Hitachi, which is making
for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), is working on 250 people redundant. Are the Government really prepared
looking at alternative sources of fuel and power. The to continue to fail the Tees valley and to see Flybe collapse,
hon. Lady pointed out the example in Orkney; that is taking regional airports such as Teesside with it?
what we are working on for the transport decarbonisation
plan, which will come forth shortly. Paul Maynard: The hon. Member will not be surprised
to hear that I have great confidence in Mayor Houchen’s
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I welcome the stewardship of both—
Minister’s comments about the impact on smaller regional
airports such as Humberside airport, which is based in Alex Cunningham: It’s a £6 million loss!
my Cleethorpes constituency. The impact on the offshore
industries and the links to Aberdeen have already been Paul Maynard: I am not going to get stuck into that.
drawn to his attention, but will he also take into account The hon. Member knows that elections are coming and
the fact that Flybe works in partnership with other I know that elections are coming—I know what he is
airlines, such as Eastern Airways, which is based in up to.
Humberside, and the possible impact of the knock-on
effect? Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Flybe flies
from Leeds Bradford airport in West Yorkshire to the
likes of Newquay, Southampton and Belfast. Passengers
Paul Maynard: My hon. Friend temps me to go into a have very little alternative until we see major investment
great, lengthy answer about franchising arrangements in regional and cross-country rail. Does the Minister
with Flybe, which I am trying not to do, but I very much agree that until that happens, we need to keep investing
hear his point and I regularly wade into the detail of in our regional infrastructure, and we also need to crack
that. on with trans-Pennine rail?
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): The Paul Maynard: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly
Minister went to school a stone’s throw from Manchester important point. When we consider aviation, it is not
airport in my constituency, but is the voice of northern just about aviation; it is also about links across other
England being heard? After the Thomas Cook debacle, modes of transport. He will know that I am the Minister
2.8 million passengers were taken out of capacity. If responsible for Northern Powerhouse Rail so I take a
this Flybe collapse happens, that will affect 1.8 million very close interest in it, and I am always happy to discuss
passengers out of Manchester airport. I know that it with him.
people are worried about climate change, but APD was
a tax devised by London civil servants in Whitehall Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)
cooling towers that crippled the growth of regional (PC): Further to the question from the hon. Member
airports throughout our country, and we are paying the for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), have
price for that. the British Government received any direct representations
from the Welsh Government following the news this
Paul Maynard: The hon. Gentleman is always a good morning?
defender of Manchester airport—I will grant him that.
As he will know, ACL determines slot allocation at Paul Maynard: I am not aware of any representations
Manchester. The Thomas Cook slots have already been received.
reallocated among easyJet and Jet2. ACL has the matter
in hand. I recognise Manchester’s interest in the process. Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): Following
the Monarch and Thomas Cook debacles, what lessons
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): Regional has the Minister learned and which of them will he
connectivity is at the heart of the Government’s agenda, apply to the situation with Flybe?
and the impact of Flybe collapsing on its partnerships
with other airlines would be quite severe. Can the Paul Maynard: I would caution that the cases are not
Minister provide reassurance that the Government will as similar as some might think. I am not going to offer a
support Flybe until the airline insolvency legislation has running commentary, but the Department works hard
come into force? in collaboration with the CAA to monitor all airlines
that operate from this country.
Paul Maynard: We are continuing to work hard in
Government to give all the support that we can at this Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Of course the
stage. I cannot comment further on exactly what is Government should intervene to safeguard people’s
occurring, but I very much hear my hon. Friend’s plea. livelihoods and the economy around the country, but
895 Flybe 14 JANUARY 2020 896

[Bill Esterson] Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action

on a day on which we have heard about yet another
increase in global ocean temperatures, when we know 1.2 pm
that parts of Australia are burning to a crisp, and when The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
the Government are on target to hit net zero in 2099, Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab):
not 2050, is it right that a subsidy that supports profitable With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a
and successful airlines should encourage and increase statement on the Iran nuclear agreement known as the
air travel, not result in the reductions that are essential joint comprehensive plan of action.
if we are to address our commitments to reducing the I addressed the House yesterday on wider concerns in
effects of climate change? relation to Iran’s conduct in the region. The strategic
aim for the UK and our international partners remains
Paul Maynard: The hon. Gentleman may have heard as it has always been: to de-escalate tensions; to hold
my answers, but I will try again. I am working hard with Iran to account for its nefarious activities; and to keep
the Minister of State, Department for Transport, my the diplomatic door open for the regime to negotiate a
hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk, to make the peaceful way forward. Iran’s destabilising activity should
UK a global leader in reducing aviation emissions. The serve as a reminder to us all of the danger to the region
hon. Gentleman may want to wait and see our proposals and to the world if it were ever to acquire a nuclear
when they are introduced. weapon. We cannot let that happen.
With that in mind, today, the E3, consisting of the
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) rose— United Kingdom, France and Germany, has jointly
taken action to hold Iran to account for its systematic
Mr Speaker: Last but certainly not least, the one and non-compliance with the JCPOA. As the European
only Jim Shannon. parties to the deal, we have written to the EU High
Representative, Josep Borrell, in his capacity as co-ordinator
Jim Shannon: Mr Speaker, The Bible says that of the JCPOA. We have formally triggered the dispute
“the last shall be first, and the first last”. resolution mechanism, thereby referring Iran to the
Joint Commission.
Mr Speaker: I shall bear that in mind. Let me set out the pattern of non-compliance by the
regime that left us with no credible alternative. Since
Jim Shannon: Absolutely—thank you so much. I last May, Iran has step by step reduced its compliance
thank the Minister for his response. He will know that with critical elements of the JCPOA, leaving it a shell of
the success of George Best Belfast City airport is down an agreement. On 1 July 2019, the International Atomic
to the Government policy of connectivity and how Energy Agency reported that Iran had exceeded key
important that is. It is also down to the success of limits on low enriched uranium stockpile limits. On
Flybe. The Minister is probably aware that it flies from 8 July, the IAEA reported that Iran had exceeded its
Belfast to 14 destinations in the UK—the largest number 3.67% enriched uranium production limit. On 5 November,
of any airline company. Some 3,400 jobs depend on the IAEA confirmed that Iran had crossed its advanced
Flybe across the United Kingdom, but 100% of those centrifuge research and development limits. On 7 November,
jobs are important to Northern Ireland. In the light of the IAEA confirmed that Iran had restarted enrichment
the new dawn in Northern Ireland—the Assembly is up activities at the Fordow facility—a clear violation of
and running, so responsibility falls on its shoulders—has JCPOA restrictions. On 18 November, the IAEA reported
he had an opportunity to speak to anyone in the Assembly that Iran had exceeded its heavy water limits. On 5 January
such as the First Minister to ensure that Flybe retains this year, Iran announced that it would no longer adhere
its critical position for Northern Ireland? to JCPOA limits on centrifuge numbers.
Each of those actions was serious. Together, they
Paul Maynard: Naturally I welcome the resumption now raise acute concerns about Iran’s nuclear ambitions.
of Stormont. I note the fact that 68% of passengers at Iran’s breakout time—the time that it would need to
Belfast City are Flybe passengers, so the company is produce enough fissile material for a nuclear weapon—is
clearly important there. I am in close contact both with now falling, which is an international concern. Time
the Northern Ireland Office and with the devolved and time again, we have expressed our serious concerns
Administration. to Iran, and urged it to come back into compliance.
Time and time again, in its statements and more importantly
through its actions, it has refused, undermining the
very integrity of the deal and flouting its international
commitments.
Iran’s announcement on 5 January made it clear that
it was now effectively refusing to comply with any of the
outstanding substantive restrictions that the JCPOA
placed on its nuclear programme. On that date, the
Iranian Government stated that its
“nuclear program no longer faces any operational restrictions,
including enrichment capacity, percentage of enrichment, amount
of enriched material, and research and development.”
With regret, the E3 was left with no choice but to refer
Iran to the JCPOA’s dispute resolution mechanism. The
DRM is the procedure set out in the deal to resolve
897 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 14 JANUARY 2020 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 898

disputes between the parties to the agreement. Alongside I agree with the E3’s attempts to preserve the agreement
our partners, we will use this to press Iran to come back despite the actions of Donald Trump and the reciprocal
into full compliance with its commitments and honour actions of the Iranian regime, to which the Foreign
an agreement that is in all our interests. Secretary referred in his statement. I also agree that
The European External Action Service will now Iran must be obliged to return to full compliance with its
co-ordinate and convene the DRM process. As a first side of the agreement. That was a sensible and balanced
step, it will call a meeting of the Joint Commission, statement on the JCPOA, stressing the international
bringing together all parties to the JCPOA within 15 days. unity around the importance of retaining and restoring
This process has been designed explicitly to allow it, and accepting that both sides have breached it in
participants flexibility and full control at each and terms and that neither has any justification for doing so.
every stage. Let me make it clear to the House that we That is what makes it all the more remarkable that
are triggering the DRM because Iran has undermined this morning we heard from one of the signatories to
the objective and purpose of the JCPOA, but we do so that statement—our very own Prime Minister—telling
with a view to bringing Iran back into full compliance. “BBC Breakfast” the following:
We are triggering the DRM to reinforce the diplomatic “the problem with the JCPOA is basically—this is the crucial thing,
track, not to abandon it. For our part, as the United this is why there is tension—from the American perspective it’s a
Kingdom we were disappointed that the US withdrew flawed agreement, it expires, plus it was negotiated by President
from the JCPOA in May 2018, and we have worked Obama…from their point of view it has many many faults. Well,
tirelessly with our international partners to preserve the if we’re going to get rid of it let’s replace it—and let’s replace it
with the Trump deal. That’s what we need to see…that would be a
agreement. We have upheld our commitments, lifting great way forward. President Trump is a great dealmaker by his
economic and financial sanctions on sectors such as own account, and by many others…Let’s work together to replace
banking, oil, shipping and metals. We lifted an asset the JCPOA and get the Trump deal instead.”
freeze and travel bans on listed entities and individuals. In the space of two or three days, the Prime Minister has
We have sought to support a legitimate trade relationship gone from signing a joint statement with France and
with Iran. The UK, France and Germany will remain Germany calling for the retention and restoration of
committed to the deal, and we will approach the DRM the JCPOA, to calling for it to be scrapped and replaced
in good faith, striving to resolve the dispute and bring by some mythical Trump deal. The Foreign Secretary
Iran back into full compliance with its JCPOA obligations. did not refer to any of that in his statement, and we
As I made clear to the House yesterday, the Government could be forgiven for thinking that he and the Prime
in Iran have a choice. The regime can take steps to Minister are not exactly on the same page, but perhaps
de-escalate tensions and adhere to the basic rules of in his response he could answer some questions about
international law or sink deeper and deeper into political the Prime Minister’s remarks.
and economic isolation. So too, Iran’s response to the First, will the Foreign Secretary confirm that in his
DRM will be a crucial test of its intentions and good discussions with his American counterparts, they have
will. We urge Iran to work with us to save the deal. We said that one of the problems with the JCPOA is that,
urge Iran to see this as an opportunity to reassure the to quote the Prime Minister,
world that its nuclear intentions are exclusively peaceful.
“it was negotiated by President Obama”?
We urge the Iranian Government to choose an alternative
path and engage in diplomacy and negotiation to resolve We all suspect that that is Trump the toddler’s main
the full range of its activities that flout international law issue with it, but can the Secretary of State confirm that
and destabilise the region. I commend the statement to the Prime Minister was correct?
the House. Secondly, can the Foreign Secretary tell us how this
supposed alternative Trump deal, which the Prime Minister
1.8 pm is so enthusiastic about, differs from the current JCPOA—
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) or, like his mythical middle eastern peace plan and his
(Lab): I thank the Foreign Secretary for advance sight mythical deal with the North Koreans on nuclear weapons,
of his statement. For all of us who regard the Iran is it simply another Trump fantasy?
nuclear deal as one of the crowning diplomatic achievements Thirdly, can the Foreign Secretary tell us why on
of this century and a path towards progress with Iran earth Iran would accept a new deal negotiated with
on other issues of concern, it is deeply distressing to see Donald Trump, with new conditions attached, when he
Iran join the United States in openly flouting the terms has shown his readiness to tear up the existing deal and
of the deal, as the Foreign Secretary has described. move the goalposts in terms of what it should cover?
I firmly agree with the action that has been taken Finally, based on what the Prime Minister said this
today alongside our European partners. I welcome every morning, are we now to understand that—despite
word of the joint statement issued at the weekend by everything the Foreign Secretary said in his statement
Britain, France and Germany in relation to the JCPOA. just now and everything contained in the joint statement
I agree with their commitment to uphold the nuclear at the weekend—it is now the official policy of the UK
non-proliferation regime. I agree with their determination Government to replace the JCPOA and get a Trump
to ensure that Iran never develops a nuclear weapon. deal instead, and that that would represent a “great way
I agree with their conclusion that the JCPOA plays forward”? If that is not official Government policy, why
a key role in those objectives. I would have been did the Prime Minister say it, and why is he walking all
stronger in my wording. Although I agree with their over the Foreign Secretary’s patch?
“regret” and “concern”, I would have said “revulsion”
and “condemnation” over the Trump Administration’s Dominic Raab: I thank the right hon. Lady for her
attempted sabotage of the JCPOA and their re-imposition support for the action we have taken today and the
of sanctions on Iran. action that we are taking as part of the E3. She made a
899 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 14 JANUARY 2020 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 900

[Dominic Raab] for Britain to exercise its judgment and the full energy
of its diplomacy to ensure that we forge common purpose
number of valid points at the outset of her remarks with our European and American friends. I have been
about holding Iran to account for the technical failures, in the US and Brussels over the last two weeks, and will
and also about the importance that we certainly attach continue that endeavour. The worst thing that we could
to leaving a diplomatic door ajar for Iran to come back do right now would be to allow or foment divisions in
from its non-compliance into compliance and to live up that partnership, because that would only encourage
to its responsibilities. the hardliners in Tehran.
The right hon. Lady made a whole range of comments
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): I commend the Foreign
about the Prime Minister, which I will address. First, it
Secretary for his statement, and I have to say that I
is Iran that is threatening the JCPOA, with its systematic
agreed with every word of it. The Scottish National party
non-compliance. The Prime Minister fully supports the
very much supports actions against nuclear proliferation
JCPOA and bringing Iran back into full compliance;
in the middle east. There was ample scope to trigger the
that is the clear position and he has said so on many
dispute resolution mechanism, so I am glad that the
occasions. [Interruption.] The right hon. Lady should
External Action Service is going through the gears on
draw breath and allow me to respond to her remarks.
that. I very much liked the phrase in his statement that
As usual, she made a whole series of attacks on the US
these efforts are to “reinforce the diplomatic track”. We
Administration, which seemed rather to cloud her judgment
all agree on that. So let us go back to this morning’s
in this area. In fact, not just President Trump but also
interview with the Prime Minister on breakfast TV, because
President Macron has argued for a broader deal with
I think it bears repetition. He said of the JCPOA:
Iran—a deal that would address some of the defects in
the JCPOA, which is not a perfect deal but is the best “let’s replace it with the Trump deal. That’s what we need to
see…President Trump is a great dealmaker by his own account,
deal we have on the table at the moment, and that would and by many others…Let’s work together to replace the JCPOA
address the wider concerns that the US and many other and get the Trump deal instead.”
states, including the United Kingdom, have about Iran’s I am very happy to support the Foreign Secretary from
broader destabilising activities in the region. The US the SNP Benches, but it seems that he is getting more
and our European partners want us to be ambitious in support from the SNP than his own Prime Minister.
our diplomatic approach with Iran, and I fully subscribe How seriously does he think Tehran takes us all right
to that. I fear that the right hon. Lady is rather confusing now?
her attacks on the US Administration with sober and
sensible policy making in this area. Dominic Raab: We engage with the regime on the
As of now, we—the Prime Minister and the whole basis that I have set out, which is that it has a choice. I
Government—believe that the JCPOA is the best available thank the hon. Gentleman for his support. This is not
deal for restraining Iran’s nuclear ambitions, and we about the UK position or any nuance regarding the
want Iran to come back into full compliance. Equally, Prime Minister. This is the position of the E3 at leader
as was discussed in Biarritz last year, the Prime Minister, level. The E3 made clear in the joint statement recently
the United States and our European partners are fully that we would like to preserve the JCPOA, but that we
open to a broader initiative that would address not just are also ambitious for a broader rapprochement with
the nuclear concerns, but the broader concerns about Iran, which of course would have to take into account
the destabilising activity that we have seen recently, in all the other areas of international concern. It is not just
particular in relation to the Quds Force. the nuclear issue that is a concern to us; it is also the
The choice of the regime in Iran as of today is very destabilising activity, the downing of the Ukrainian
simple. It can take the diplomatic path. It can come airline flight and the treatment of our dual nationals.
back into full compliance with the JCPOA and thereby Even if we got Iran back to the JCPOA in full compliance,
give this country, our European partners and our American those issues would remain, and of course we should—with
partners—and, crucially, many partners in the region— our American partners, as we are doing with our European
reassurance about its nuclear ambitions. If it wants to, partners—look to deal with all those issues for the long
it can also take the diplomatic path to resolve all the term.
outstanding concerns that the international community Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I wonder whether
has about its conduct. That is the choice for the regime I am the only one who believes that the current regime is
in Iran. If it is willing to take that path in good faith, we ever going to adhere to the JCPOA. What is the biggest
will be ready to meet it with British diplomacy. threat now? Could it be that Israel, which has been
Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): I thank the threatened by Iran, is likely to strike if this goes on
Foreign Secretary for his support for the Iran nuclear unless some sort of agreement is reached, which could
deal, because the simple truth is that if Philip Hammond of course inflame an already very difficult situation?
had not negotiated it, Iran would have nuclear weapons
today and the middle east would be immensely more Dominic Raab: It is not clear to me that there is any
dangerous. However, it has caused a lot of stresses in credible alternative to a diplomatic route to solving this
the western alliance, and I would like to ask the Secretary issue long term, even with airstrikes. I will not get into
of State’s view as to the best way to strengthen that all the operational matters. The only way of dealing with
alliance, because however tattered and strained it is, it is the concerns that we have is a mixture—a combination—of
a vital foundation of our peace and prosperity, and has holding Iran to account when it behaves badly, as it has
been for the past 70 years. done systematically in relation to its nuclear ambitions,
and leaving open the door to diplomatic opportunity
Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend, of course, and diplomacy. That is the position of the UK—and, I
knows a lot of the recent history of this situation as well believe, it is also the position of not just our European
as—if not better than—I do. As always, the answer is partners but our American partners too.
901 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 14 JANUARY 2020 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 902

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I certainly do not whether on the nuclear front, by destabilising countries
want to defend the actions of the Iranian regime on any in the region or in the treatment of dual nationals
count. The Foreign Secretary was instrumental, when without being held to account, and that is the policy of
he was on the Back Benches, in making sure that the the UK.
Government introduced legislation known as the Magnitsky
amendments, which were to enable the Government to Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I welcome
have another tool in the box in relation to sanctions. the decision to trigger the dispute resolution mechanism.
They were primarily considered as relating to Russia, However, given that over the past few weeks we have
but would it not be a good idea to have them on the seen Iran use ballistic missiles to attack coalition forces
statute book in the UK now, as fast as possible, and and that, in the wake of the killing of General Soleimani,
would we not be considering using those sanctions in we have had another reminder of all the activities he
relation to Iranians as well? used to carry out, it is sensible for the Prime Minister to
have an ambition to bring the US back on board as part
Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman is quite right, of this deal but to widen it to encompass all the other
first, about the importance of having that sanctions activities of Iran. Will the Foreign Secretary set out
capacity. As we leave the EU we will have more autonomy what Britain might do to try to kick-start that process
to do that. We are looking forward to bringing that as well as bringing the JCPOA back into full action?
forward. It was mentioned in the Queen’s Speech. He
Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend is absolutely
also made the point—I think we have always agreed
right. We want to preserve the JCPOA—it is the only
about this since the campaign for a Magnitsky regime in
current deal in town—but of course we are ambitious
this country—that such capacity certainly should not
to see a broader rapprochement. That is not just the
just apply to Russia, or to one country, but should be
Prime Minister’s view. He has been actively supporting
universal in geographic scope, and the approach that we
President Trump and President Macron, and there is a
are taking will be.
huge amount of diplomatic work being undertaken by
Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): Last year an me, by the Prime Minister and others and by our
archive of documents relating to Iran’s nuclear programme international partners to achieve that. But we come
was unearthed in a Tehran warehouse by Israel’s intelligence back to the basic equation and the basic choice: this is
agencies. The documents revealed the extent of Iran’s ultimately a decision that must be made in Tehran,
deception to the IAEA and the world powers about its because leaving the diplomatic door ajar is one thing
historical work to develop nuclear weapons and its but Iran has to be willing to walk through it. We will
ongoing efforts to circumvent the JCPOA. Is my right make sure that that diplomatic route—that diplomatic
hon. Friend able to confirm whether the UK has seen path—to a better alternative Iran is there, but it must be
these documents and whether he shares Israel’s concerns something that the regime in Tehran, bearing in mind
about their contents? all the recent events, the growing economic isolation
and the disaffection of many, many people in Iran with
Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend makes some interesting the state of affairs, chooses and pursues of its own
points. I am not going to comment on intelligence matters volition.
or operational matters, but I can say that of course we Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): It is precisely
share Israel’s concern not just about Iran’s nuclear because we support this deal that the E3 was left with
ambitions but about the wider activities in the region. no option but to take the action that it has, and I
The point that I think we and all our partners agree on support the Government in doing so. But can I bring
is that ultimately Tehran should give up those ambitions the Foreign Secretary back to the Prime Minister’s
and negotiate a way out of economic and political remarks this morning? Either the Prime Minister wants
isolation, which will only deepen, and live up to the to maintain this deal or he is now advocating for its
responsibilities that it has to its own people. There is a replacement: he cannot credibly hold both positions.
better path for the people of Iran, but it has to be a Which one is the policy of the Government?
choice that is taken by the regime in Iran.
Dominic Raab: The right hon. Gentleman is just
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): This is a very wrong. Of course one can want to preserve this deal but
troubling time not only for Mr Ashuri and his family be ambitious and, if it is possible, bring the United
but for other relations of British nationals being held in States and Tehran into a broader rapprochement, dealing
Iranian prisons. Will the Foreign Secretary clearly outline not just with the nuclear issue but with the wider
what steps he intends to take to support these individuals destabilising activities. That is the policy that we are
and their families and prevent them from being exploited pursuing and we are doing so with the US and also,
even further in this dreadful situation? crucially, with our EU partners. There seems to be a bit
of amnesia on the Opposition Benches. It was President
Dominic Raab: I entirely agree with the hon. Lady. Macron who last year proposed a very similar approach.
The plight of the nationals and dual nationals in detention Just as we are willing to support that in relation to
from our country and other countries around the world proposals initiated in Washington, we supported it in
is at the forefront of our minds. Of course, we have seen relation to Macron. We want to keep the transatlantic
the systematic and callous behaviour by Iran in relation alliance together and we want to bring a broader
to them increase over time, not decrease, so it is all part rapprochement between the US and Iran that can lead
of a wider pattern of behaviour. We will do everything to a better path for the Iranian people.
we can to secure their release and, while they are in
detention, the best conceivable treatment that we can Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): It seems that the
imagine. Again, as with the other issues, Iran has to JCPOA in its current form is dying, although it is not
realise that it cannot pursue its appalling behaviour, dead yet, and I compliment the Foreign Secretary and
903 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 14 JANUARY 2020 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 904

[Bob Seely] Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I

welcome the Secretary of State’s focus on not only the
his Ministers for the work that they are doing. Is there tactical issues but the wider strategic context that we
any common ground between the United States and face. I repeat the point that I made yesterday during the
Iran on a potential JCPOA 2? urgent question: there is little incentive for Iran to
support the JCPOA when economic reform cannot take
Dominic Raab: It is not clear that there is, as of now. place. It could not take place before because legacy
However, there is scope, if Iran is willing—the E3 sanctions connected with ballistic missiles prevented
statement backed this up, but we come back to that any bank with international ties to the United States
basic dynamic and that basic choice—to see some sort from supporting any new trade. Will he ensure that a
of broader deal that would address not just the nuclear future deal deals with those legacy sanctions and prevents
front but the wider destabilising activities. If we want a the country from spending any new funds, such as oil
longer-term resolution to the challenge that Iran faces revenues or released frozen assets, on its proxy wars
which brings in the United States and all the relevant across the region?
partners in the region, it is absolutely right that we hold
to that ambition and pursue it where we can. Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend makes a good
point, but he also highlights a conundrum. On the one
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I thank the hand, we do not want to relieve the pressure on Iran in
Secretary of State for prior sight of his statement. relation to its nefarious activities. On the other hand,
Given his earlier remarks about dual nationals in Iran we have to incentivise, to the extent that we can, the
and the increasingly desperate situation of Nazanin right path and the right kind of conduct to build up the
Zaghari-Ratcliffe, will he clarify when the Prime Minister confidence of its international partners. At the moment,
is going to meet Richard Ratcliffe? At the moment, all it is very clear, in relation to the JCPOA and more
we have is “soon”. Will this be taken up as a matter of broadly, that that door is left open for Iran. What is
urgency and a meeting arranged this week if possible? missing is the political will and the good faith on behalf
of the regime in Tehran.
Dominic Raab: The meetings that the Prime Minister
has will be publicised in the usual way through the usual Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Welcome to your
channels, but I have met Richard Ratcliffe. We of course place, Mr Deputy Speaker. The JCPOA, successful or
understand the concern of Nazanin’s family and also all not, will impact upon countries across the world. Iran is
the other dual nationals who are detained. We have seen not a safe place for its own people, never mind any other
Iran’s behaviour deteriorate not just on the nuclear citizens—the shooting down of the jet is an example of
front and not just in the Revolutionary Guard’s activities that. Can the Secretary of State outline his intention to
in the region, but in relation to dual nationals. It is at prepare and secure expats and workers in Iran? What
the forefront of our mind to get a deal, long term, with advice will be given to people working there who have
the Iranians that can bring in all those aspects, which is British citizenship or are from other countries across
why the nuclear deal is critically important. We also the world to get ready to leave Iran?
want to address the wider issues; that is why the Prime
Minister has taken the approach that he has. Dominic Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his
question. He is right; we are always concerned to ensure
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): Will the Foreign Secretary that we do the right thing and give honest, accurate and
outline the steps that are being taken to safeguard clear advice to British citizens wherever they are in the
British citizens, personnel and interests in the region? world. In relation to Iran, we have amended our travel
advice again. That is the normal way, and we would
Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. point individuals and businesses to that for the appropriate
We obviously keep the security of our armed forces under guidance.
constant review. We do the same in terms of shipping in
the Gulf, and particularly the strait of Hormuz. We Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): It is
have amended our travel advice recently, and we ensure good to see you in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can
that we have the appropriate level of security arrangements the Foreign Secretary tell me what conversations he has
around our embassy and our diplomatic personnel. had with not only our European partners in the E3 but
our partners in the region—perhaps even our new partner,
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ the new Sultan of Oman—on how we will deal with
Co-op): The Foreign Secretary is right to highlight the Iran?
importance of diplomacy in resolving this crisis. Can he
update us on the situation of the British ambassador to Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his question.
Iran, particularly given the fact that in the last couple of He is right. The Prime Minister was there for the
hours it has been reported, including in the Financial funeral of the Sultan, which was a valuable opportunity
Times, that Gholam-Hossein Esmaeili, who is a to engage in conversation with the new Sultan. We have
representative of the Iranian judiciary, has called for had conversations with our partners right around the
him to be persona non grata and expelled from the region. There is a clear commonality of view that we
country? Does the Foreign Secretary agree that that is need to de-escalate the tensions but also hold Iran to
completely unacceptable? account for its behaviour. Bearing in mind that we have
to engage very carefully with Russia and China on this,
Dominic Raab: We have had no formal indication of the approach that we are taking in the context of the
that description. It would be deeply regrettable if that JCPOA is that, on the terms of the deal, clearly, plainly
were the case. We need to keep the diplomatic channels and squarely Iran has, in its own words, effectively left
open, and futile gestures like that are not going to the agreement as a shell. The right thing to do, as
resolve the problems that the regime in Tehran face. envisaged by the agreement, is to take matters to the
905 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 14 JANUARY 2020 Joint Comprehensive Plan Of Action 906

dispute resolution mechanism and use that to leverage, Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his question.
to bring some sense and clarity to the regime in Tehran I share his concerns that there are weaknesses to the
and to encourage them to come back to full compliance. JCPOA. It is time-limited. There are other weaknesses
to it. We have never been doe-eyed about it being the
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) perfect deal, but it is also the only deal in town that is
(PC): It is great to see you back in your rightful place, restraining the behaviour of Iran. As we have now got
Mr Deputy Speaker. The British Government are right to a situation where Iran is not complying with those
to work with our European partners and within the restraints, we have to trigger the DRM as a matter of
formal mechanisms of the nuclear deal. Can the Secretary the credibility of the deal and the credibility of the E3.
of State inform the House what responses he has received I take his point—it is the point that the Prime Minister
from China and Russia following the actions he has made—that we should also be ambitious for a broader
taken? deal that deals with not only the nuclear issue in a
more sustainable and long-term way but all the other
Dominic Raab: We are engaging with them, and we wider concerns that those in the region, the Europeans
will engage with them more during the process of the and the Americans have about Iran’s conduct in the
DRM, but we need to be clear that this is not a region.
transatlantic issue, and it is not just an Iranian issue—it
is a regional and global issue, because the prospect of a
nuclear-armed Iran would be damaging, devastating Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
and destabilising for the region and the world. All (Con): I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement
permanent members of the Security Council need to be and welcome the action taken today. Are any discussions
engaged in this and live up to their responsibilities to being had with the multiple oil and gas companies that
ensure, through the diplomatic track and the pressure operate in the region, which employ a large number of
that we exert on all sides, that Iran cannot pursue those British citizens, many of whom are my constituents or
ambitions. family members of my constituents? There is obviously
a concern in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine for
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Triggering the safety of those who are out there working for oil
the dispute resolution mechanism is a good thing, but and gas companies in what remains a very unpredictable
to be frank, only doing so after six months of—to use situation.
the Foreign Secretary’s own words—“serious” and
“systematic non-compliance” is weak. The JCPOA is
time-limited. It would never prevent Iran from having a Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his question.
nuclear weapon; it would only delay the chances of that The Defence Secretary has set out the contingency
happening, but it cannot do that if, to use the Foreign planning in relation to military support for shipping in
Secretary’s own words, it is just a “shell” of an agreement. the strait of Hormuz, which will affect the sector that
What are the dangers of Iran reducing its breakout time my hon. Friend is talking about. We have adjusted and
while the dispute resolution mechanism is under way? Is will keep under constant review our travel advice in
it not time for a truly comprehensive agreement covering relation to not only Iran but countries in the region, so
nuclear weapon technology, missile technology and Iran’s that businesses and individuals travelling have the clearest
export of terror? guidance about risk.
907 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 908

Debate on the Address Gavin Williamson: If I may, I will take the opportunity
to make some more progress. The hon. Gentleman
always has lots of interventions that can be placed at
[3RD DAY] any point in a speech, as they usually have very little
Debate resumed (Order, 13 January). relevance to the speech taking place.
Question again proposed, Money spent on schools is an investment in our futures.
That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as I am pleased to say that we are going to deliver the
follows: biggest funding injection into schools in a decade. Over
Most Gracious Sovereign, the next three years, we are going to put an additional
We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons £14.4 billion into schools in England, with areas in
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in most need seeing the greatest gains. My Department is
Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to acutely aware of the huge responsibility we have for all
Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has our children, but none more so than the most vulnerable,
addressed to both Houses of Parliament. especially those with special educational needs. That is
why we announced £780 million additional high needs
funding for the following financial year, an increase of
Education and Local Government 12% compared with this year. That will be the largest
year-on-year increase since the high needs funding block
1.37 pm was created in 2013, and I am sure it is something
everyone will welcome.
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson):
May I say how delighted I am to see so many new faces Alex Cunningham rose—
among us? They could not have arrived at a more
exciting time. This Government have a historic mandate Gavin Williamson: I am sure the hon. Gentleman is
to push through an ambitious and challenging agenda, about to welcome it.
to make changes that will transform the lives and prospects
of a generation. We are poised to shape a new Britain. Alex Cunningham: I always welcome additional finance
We are primed for a new era. This Government are for special needs, but schools in Stockton also know
ready to ensure that Britain can seize the opportunities what they are going to get. They are going to get a
that lie ahead of us after we leave the European Union—a £6.2 million reduction or shortfall by 2020, a loss of
Britain where the young people of today are prepared £210 a pupil. How is that fair?
for the world of tomorrow.
Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman has never
Education is a mirror to the kind of society that we been known for his skill at maths. If he were to look at
want to see—an open, flexible, tolerant and supportive the Confederation of School Trusts figures, an independent
society where everyone, wherever they are from and organisation that has done the calculations of what
whatever their talents, has the chance to achieve their every school will receive, he will see that every school is
dreams and ambitions. Since becoming Education Secretary, getting a per pupil increase in funding. It is a shame that
I have been committed to making those ambitions a he did not take the opportunity to welcome that.
reality. As Her Majesty the Queen set out in her Gracious One of our most pressing priorities is to make sure
Speech on 19 December, we are about to embark on a that all children in care or in need of adoption are given
full programme to ensure that everyone feels the benefit a loving and stable home. We are providing councils
of these changes. with an additional £1 billion for adult and children’s
social care in every year of this Parliament. That is
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): The alongside the £84 million to be spent over five years to
Secretary of State has sent me a most welcome spreadsheet keep more children at home safely. We are also going to
telling me what schools in my constituency can expect review the care system to make sure that all care placements
from the settlement he has reached. I am glad to say and settings provide children and young adults with the
that all my secondary schools are set to receive more support that they need.
than £5,000 per pupil, but how will he ensure that they
get it and that local authorities will not increase their John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): West Berkshire
slice or use their own formula to redistribute it? and Wokingham are very appreciative that at last we are
going to get a bit more money, which we really need for
Gavin Williamson: I thank my right hon. Friend for our schools, and I am grateful for the work the Secretary
making such an important intervention, and for his of State has put in. Does he agree that, to get many
compliment on the spreadsheet, which is a compliment more people to fulfil their potential, schools in their
I have not received before. He makes an important careers education should identify self-employment, as
point about making sure that money that has been well as jobs, as a very good way of fulfilling people’s
allocated to schools is going to be properly passported expectations in many cases? That often gets ignored.
through. It will be the Government’s intention to move
a statutory instrument to ensure that the minimum Gavin Williamson: My right hon. Friend makes an
funding of £5,000 for every secondary school and £3,750 important point about the need to encourage
for every primary school is passported through to schools entrepreneurialism within our education system. We see
in the next financial year. For primary schools, that will this in many schools, and of course we also see it in
obviously be increased to £4,000. many further education colleges and universities. I was
very fortunate to visit King’s College London recently
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Will the to see the brilliant student business incubator model it
Secretary of State give way? has there, which is making such an impact. How do we
909 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 910

expand that to more universities, while making sure that they have both visited and have supported over many
schools are teaching the value of entrepreneurialism in years. It is an outstanding free school, which I co-founded
what they are doing? and chaired. Does he agree with me that such schools—free
schools where innovation in education has been pioneered
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Is the and disciplinary methods have succeeded—are working
Secretary of State aware of the excellent families of schools to revolutionise education in this country, and that had
initiative, which works with primary schoolchildren —again, the Labour party got into power, they would be no
exactly the point made by my right hon. Friend the more?
Member for Wokingham (John Redwood)—in extolling
the benefits of self-employment to very young children Gavin Williamson: The Labour party’s ideological
to instil such values at that age? hatred of free schools is, frankly, quite shocking, as we
see those like the Michaela Community School making
Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend highlights an such an enormous difference to the local community. I
important scheme that is going out there and selling the would like to pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work
virtues of entrepreneurialism at the start of a child’s she did along with Katharine Birbalsingh, who has
educational learning. That is certainly something we worked so hard to create this shining example of what
very much want to encourage across the education can be done—changing the lives of so many children
spectrum. from some of the most disadvantaged communities in
We all know how important a loving home is to a London. That is what we want to be seeing more of, not
child’s development and we want to give parents all the less, and that is what this Government are going to
support we can. We have announced a new £1 billion deliver.
investment to create more high-quality, affordable childcare
provision for families with school-age children, including Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op):
a £250 million capital fund to help schools to overcome Will the Secretary of State give way?
barriers to offering on-site childcare provision. The aim Gavin Williamson: I am going to make some more
of this Government is always to be there supporting progress, as I have been very generous in allowing
parents and families as they bring up their children. interventions.
Thanks to our reforms, standards in schools have We have made great strides with the more rigorous
been rising, but that does not mean that this is the academic programmes of study, but we know that the
moment to ease up or stop that progress. Schools should arts are vital in helping young people learn creative
be safe and disciplined spaces, where pupils can learn in skills and widen their horizons. We also know that the
a happy and secure way. That is why we are investing creative industries play an important role in the United
£10 million to establish behaviour hubs to help teachers Kingdom economy. For those reasons, we will offer an
who are having to deal with disruption in the classroom arts premium to secondary schools to fund activities
and within a school. We are also expanding alternative from 2021. We will also continue to fund music education
provision schools for troubled or disruptive youngsters. hubs next year, with an extra £80 million.
We have launched a £4 million alternative provision
innovation fund. Projects being run as part of that will I would now like to come on to standards. Thanks to
guide our plans for this important sector, which needs Ofsted inspections, we have seen standards in our schools
reform and change. rise continuously since 2010. Plans are in place to take
forward our pledge to lift the inspection exemption that
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): I currently applies to outstanding schools. That will mean
am a former teacher, and believe me, behaviour was parents have up-to-date information and reassurance
probably the most important thing in ensuring that I about the education being provided by their child’s
had the space to be able to deliver such content. Does school.
the Secretary of State not appreciate that a lot of these
children are behaving in that way because they do not Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): I was
have support, and much of the way in which they used a schoolteacher up to the last general election and have
to get that support was through things such as youth worked as a head of year in the pastoral system and
services? Has he planned any extra money for youth have worked both in London and inner-city Birmingham.
services and support for young people who are often Does my right hon. Friend share my opinion that it is
facing adverse issues at home and desperately need help terrifying to think that had Labour got into power it
themselves? would have scrapped Ofsted, leaving our children in a
much more dangerous position going forward?
Gavin Williamson: I thought the hon. Lady was going
talk about our youth investment fund, and the half a Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend and fellow
billion pound investment that has been pledged by the Staffordshire Member makes a powerful point, because
Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a real difference. what the Labour party was doing was throwing away
[Interruption.] The Liberal Democrat Member sneers the ability to ensure that we enforce ever-increasing
at the mention of half a billion pounds as if this is a standards and better attainment for our children. What
small amount of money, but I think most Conservative was even more disturbing were the proposals to scrap
Members recognise that half a billion pounds is an Ofsted. Labour was saying that for those children who
awful lot of money. are most vulnerable—those who are in social care—there
would be no independent inspectorate to make sure that
Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con): Speaking about their interests were being protected, and it was letting
behaviour and discipline, the Secretary of State and local authorities mark their own homework. That is not
indeed his Minister for School Standards will be very what any of us wish to see. I hope that the Labour
much aware of Michaela Community School, which leadership race will give Labour the opportunity to
911 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 912

[Gavin Williamson] chemistry teachers, in addition to generous bursaries of

up to £26,000. Simply, we always want to attract the
rethink some of its more imaginative policies and come very best into the profession, and that is what we are
back with something that works for both pupils and determined to do.
parents.
Since 2010 the Government have been transforming Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): The
the education system to place more autonomy and teacher salaries the Secretary of State is talking about
freedom in the hands of teachers, giving parents more will, of course, be welcomed by the profession; they do
choice. The free schools programme has been a key part not match the salaries in Scotland yet, but he is moving
of this and is a stand-out success. Our manifesto pledges in the right direction. Can he confirm that those teaching
to build more free schools, to continue to promote in free schools and academies will be paid the nationally
innovation and to continue to drive higher standards in agreed pay rates, because at the moment they are not?
schools, especially in some of the communities that are
most deprived and that need to see something better in Gavin Williamson: I thought the hon. Lady was going
the education provided. to raise some exciting prospects. One of the key areas
where we can get so much benefit is schools working
Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): Does together right across the country, whether through multi-
my right hon Friend agree that Stoke-on-Trent is exactly academy trusts or local education authorities, and I
the sort of place where we should be building a new free thought the hon. Lady was going to suggest that we
school? have more collaboration between England and Scotland,
which we would very much want. The hon. Lady has
Gavin Williamson: My hon. Friend makes a very already heard of our commitment to raise the starting
powerful case, and I look forward to working with him salaries for teachers and to negotiate in terms of teachers’
and other Conservative Members who represent the salaries, and to make sure we listen to what the pay
great city of Stoke-on-Trent to look at how we can review board comes forward with. But I would like
ensure that we have the right type of education provision English schools and Scottish schools and those in Wales
there and that we continue to raise educational standards, and Northern Ireland to have much more collaboration—
which, sadly, under Labour representation on the council whether in the university sector, the FE sector or the
and often at parliamentary level, were not as high as school sector, we can all benefit from that. We have seen
our aspirations for that great city. great attainments, as were celebrated in the PISA results,
where we saw English schools making very good progress.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does It would be good to have the opportunity to work
the Secretary of State agree that, although it is not always closely with our Scottish colleagues on how we can
the best rule, good guidance is evidence-based policy, share best practice from both Scotland and England.
and is not the evidence still that early-years intervention Our future economic prosperity will depend on having
and pre-school stimulation for children from poorer a workforce that has the skills that businesses need now
backgrounds is the best value investment our country and into the future. We will invest an additional £3 billion
can make? over the course of this Parliament to support the creation
of a national skills fund, which will build on existing
Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman makes a reforms, including ongoing work to develop a national
good point about the importance of evidence-based retraining scheme. This is on top of additional capital
investment in education. I know that he has had an investment of £1.8 billion into the further education
interest in education over many years, so I am sure he estate, investing in the skills and education required for
will be keen to look at some of the opportunity areas we our nation’s future.
have been investing in, one of which is in Bradford, Talented international students and researchers are
which is very close to his own constituency, and there is queuing up to study in the United Kingdom, and they
also one on the north Yorkshire coast. They are delivering enrich our universities culturally and economically, bringing
real results in terms of children’s attainment, especially fresh ideas and new perspectives. That is why the
in the early-years environment. I would be more than Government aim to host 600,000 international students
happy to share information with the hon. Gentleman by 2030. Our new student visa will help us attract the
on the work being done in those opportunity areas. brightest and best and allow those students to stay on to
Let me go back to the subject of free schools. A apply for work here after they graduate.
disproportionate number of the free schools we have As we prepare to forge a new place on the international
created have been built in London and the south-east. I stage we want our young people to have the opportunity
want to see this revolution in education delivery rolled to study abroad through exchange programmes. The
out, spread much more widely through the midlands, United Kingdom is open to participation in the next
the north and the south-west of England, driving up Erasmus+ programme, and this will be a question for
standards and attainment in all our schools and all our future negotiations with the European Union. We do
communities. truly understand the value that such exchange programmes
It is obvious that to deliver these world-class standards bring all students right across the United Kingdom, but
we need more of the very best teachers to join those we to ensure that we are able to continue to offer that we
already have. That is why we have pledged to raise will also develop our own alternative arrangements
starting salaries to £30,000 by 2022, which will put should they be needed.
teaching on a par with other top graduate professions. I have been focusing until now on the ways that we
We are also offering early career payments worth up to are going to enrich the educational experience for all
£9,000 to new physics, mathematics, languages and our pupils and students, but in just the same way as our
913 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 914

postcode should not be a lottery that decides the kind It is the Government’s intention to unleash the potential
of schooling our children receive, it should not determine of every corner of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern
whether we feel safe when we close our front door. For Ireland by bridging the productivity gap, levelling up
that reason, we are bringing forward legislation to opportunity and prosperity across the nation, and starting
further the recommendations from Dame Judith Hackitt’s a skills and infrastructure revolution. We will create
independent review on building safety, and we will give more Mayors across England to devolve power away
residents a stronger voice, ensuring that their concerns from Westminster, and we will bring forward a framework
are never ignored. for devolution and a White Paper.
We also committed to taking forward the I do not want to delay any further in getting straight
recommendations of the first phase of the Grenfell Tower on with the work of this challenging and ambitious
inquiry report to ensure that the tragedy of Grenfell agenda; an agenda that is driven by fairness and that
Tower never happens again. We are working to deliver a will make a difference to more people, enabling them to
rental system that protects tenants and supports landlords look forward to a future with optimism and confidence.
to provide the homes the nation needs. We will abolish In Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech, we see the beginnings
no-fault evictions, helping tenants to stay in their homes of a better Britain for everyone. I commend the Gracious
while ensuring landlords are given the protections they Speech to the House.
also need. We are determined to improve standards in
rented accommodation and to professionalise the sector.
2.3 pm
There is no place in this country for squalid or unsafe
rented properties. We will make sure that all tenants Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab): Let me
have a right of redress if theirs is not of an acceptable welcome you to the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker. I also
standard. welcome the new Members to the Chamber for today’s
debate. We look forward to hearing some fantastic
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): This may maiden speeches, so I will keep my speech relatively
be a question more appropriately directed at the Secretary brief. That will be easy because, quite frankly, there is so
of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, little actual substance in this Queen’s Speech for us to
the right hon. Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick), respond to.
who is sat next to the right hon. Gentleman on the Today, the Secretary of State made his first speech
Treasury Bench, but he mentions Grenfell and dealing since November. Education was the issue that the
with fire safety issues. The problem is that, at present, Conservatives did not want to talk about in the election.
there is a difference according to where you live. I know When they did, they had a lot more to say about our
the Government are doing a review, but if leaseholders policies than their own. I am glad they paid particular
have a form of cladding that is not of limited combustibility attention to an area that gets little attention in these
but is not ACM cladding, basically there is no help for debates: the care of the most vulnerable children. Our
them. Many are living in flats that are now unsaleable. manifesto committed to a wholesale review of the care
The Government really have to address that issue. I system and a replacement for the troubled families
look forward to a commitment that that will be done, if programme. A week later, their manifesto promised a
not from him then from his colleague next to him. review of the care system and an improvement to the
Gavin Williamson: As the hon. Gentleman said, that troubled families programme—to think that Ministers
is currently being reviewed by an expert panel. I am sure once promised to crack down on plagiarism!
that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for I hope that that was not simply a cheap imitation.
Housing, Communities and Local Government will go Will the Secretary of State confirm that their review will
into more detail when he responds to the debate at close include kinship care, and consider the need for national
of business today. standards for fostering and proper regulation of semi-
We, as a Conservative party, understand the importance supported housing? When will the review begin? What
of owning your own home. As a Government committed will its terms be? Who will undertake it, and precisely
to a fairer society, it is crucial that we address the divide what does he want it to achieve? Can he tell us what
between those who can afford their own home and those improving the troubled families programme means, and
who cannot. Our first home scheme will provide local whether any successor programme will not just fall
people with a discount on the costs of a new home, victim to yet more local government cuts?
which will save them tens of thousands of pounds. Our Let me offer this in a genuinely constructive spirit. I
shared ownership reforms will provide a further route proposed a simple policy that could transform the lives
to home ownership. We will deliver at least 1 million more of children who have experienced care. Many do not
homes over the next five years to help more people on have a permanent home address and going to university
to the housing ladder. We will also put an end to the with only term-time accommodation available is a challenge.
abuse of leaseholds by banning new leasehold houses Barely more than a tenth of children leaving care go to
and restricting future ground rents to a peppercorn. university and 40% drop out—the highest among all
No less important than people’s homes are the groups of students. Yet those who stay on are as likely
communities they live in. We are committed to keeping to attain the best grades as any other. Providing free
our town centres vibrant. We are changing the business all-year-round accommodation for those students would
rate system to give small retailers a bigger discount on transform their lives. The cost is tiny and would be
their rates, as well as extending the discount to cinemas repaid many times over, not just economically but with
and music venues, and, importantly, introducing additional something more than money: human potential realised.
discounts to pubs. We will conduct a fundamental review The Conservatives made another election promise to
of business rates and we will increase the frequency of the most vulnerable children. Their manifesto pledged to
business rates revaluations. “grant asylum and support to refugees fleeing persecution”,
915 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 916

[Angela Rayner] How many times have we heard Ministers pledge action
on the cost of school uniforms and equipment? They
yet last week, just two weeks into the parliamentary first did so in November 2015. We are four years and
Session, they rejected an amendment protecting the four Education Secretaries on. Just before Dissolution,
right of unaccompanied child refugees to be reunited the Minister for School Standards told the House that
with their family after Brexit. Surely, it is our most basic the Government were waiting for a “suitable legislative
moral duty to ensure that children can be reunited with opportunity”. Perhaps the Education Secretary can answer
their families. If we judge the Government on how they this: if the Queen’s Speech is not a suitable opportunity
treat the powerless and penniless, then the judgment on for legislation, what on earth is? In the previous Session,
this must be damning. It is a betrayal not just of those the then hon. Member for Peterborough tabled a
children, but of the best traditions of this country. private Member’s Bill that would have addressed the
Frankly, I hope that Members—even Conservative Members issue—frankly, she managed more legislation in six months
—will urge the other place to overturn it. as an Opposition Back Bencher than the Government
The Prime Minister described the Queen’s Speech as managed in four years in office. Labour’s Welsh Assembly
a blueprint for the future of Britain, so it is telling that Government have done the same, using existing powers
education is missing from the blueprint. I have now to regulate. I have yet to hear why this Government
responded to three Queen’s Speeches with three Education cannot also do the same, so perhaps the Minister will
Secretaries in three years. Between them, there has not tell us whether, if they will not act, they will at least
been one single piece of primary legislation. The only support a private Member’s Bill from an Opposition
education bills produced by the Government are the Member who will.
ones being handed to parents by headteachers desperate While we are on the subject of Bills that are missing
for donations for their school gates to stay open. Despite in action, perhaps the Government can tell us what has
the Education Secretary’s boast, the Government will happened to their legislation to regulate home education.
not even reverse the school cuts they have imposed since The right approach would have cross-party support,
2010. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies found, even in but we cannot scrutinise what does not exist, so where is
the financial year 2022-23, when the new money that it? The same goes for their school-level funding formula,
was promised is due finally to appear, schools will still which they said needs primary legislation. There was
be hundreds of millions of pounds worse off than they also no detail on the expansion of childcare, maintained
were in 2010. Capital funding for education, which has nurseries, or Sure Start funding. The Secretary of State
already been cut by 40% since they came to power over must be aware that the funding for early years that was
nine years ago, will continue to fall even further. The announced in the spending review does not even begin
money that they are slowly putting in has been deliberately to meet the cost of inflation.
taken away from the schools and the pupils who need it
most. They call it “levelling up”, Mr Deputy Speaker. The story is the same in further and higher education.
What I call it is an absolute joke. The Augar review went from being a flagship to a ghost
ship. The last Education Secretary, the right hon. Member
The Government are not targeting help at the most
for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), promised when it
disadvantaged; they are keeping them in their place. As
was published that the Government
the Education Policy Institute found, under these plans
a child on free school meals will get less than half the “will come forward with the conclusion of the review at the end of
funding of a child who is not. What of the previous the year, at the spending review.” —[Official Report, 4 June 2019;
Vol. 661, c. 58.]
Conservative Government’s totemic policy, the pupil
premium? The past two Tory manifestos promised to Both have gone by and we have had just vague words.
protect it. The past two Tory Governments went on to Further education is meant to be the Education Secretary’s
cut it. This Prime Minister has solved that problem: he passion, but since 2010 the Government have cut funding
has given up even making the promise in the first place. for this vital area each and every year. In real terms, funding
The Conservatives’ manifesto contained not a word or a has been cut by over £3 billion. In adult education, with
penny for it, so the Secretary of State has the chance to over £1 billion cut from annual funding, the national
make his intentions plain today. Will they keep the pupil skills fund will embed hundreds of millions of pounds
premium, and will they finally increase it in real terms, in annual cuts.
rather than continue to see it fall year on year?
Another set of pupils deserve more support but are Lloyd Russell-Moyle: My hon. Friend is talking about
not getting it. By the financial year 2020-21, local councils areas that the Government failed to address and Bills
face a spending shortfall of over £1 billion for children that they should perhaps support. In the last Parliament,
with special educational needs and disabilities. Despite I introduced a Bill on youth work, which the Government
what the Education Secretary said, his Department is have cut by £1 billion annually. They have proposed a
not offering to make up that shortfall—and, even then, fund of £500 million for estate rebuilding but there is
there is only a one-year deal. Councils and schools have none for youth workers, the people who interact with
no idea how much more funding, if any, they will get to young people. Is that not another area in which the
support pupils with high needs in the years ahead. They Government have let down education and young people?
cannot plan their provision and ensure that every child
gets the support that they need. When will the review of Angela Rayner: I commend my hon. Friend for the
high needs funding be completed, and will the Government work he has done since coming into the House to ensure
guarantee that local government will not simply be that we have a great universal youth service. What the
handed yet more responsibilities without resources? Government have done to our youth services is an
What of the parents struggling with the basic costs of absolute scandal, not only plunging our youth into lives
school thanks to the stagnating wages, axed tax credits where they do not reach their full potential, but failing
and years of cuts that the Government have overseen? to address many of our young people’s concerns.
917 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 918

The funding that the Secretary of State boasted in Birmingham, where we have twice the average number of
about does not even come close to reversing the extent children on free school meals? Nine out of 10 constituencies
of the cuts that his Government have delivered. When it are losing out, 99% of schools are set to lose out in this
comes to Ofsted, instead of weaponising the inspectorate, financial year, and 89% of schools will in the next
they should adopt another of our promises: to produce financial year, with ever more serious consequences for
an independent Her Majesty’s inspectorate that has the the teaching of our children in the city. It may be that the
faith of teachers, school leaders and parents and that is leafy shires that he represents have been disproportionately
resourced effectively so that it can do the job. and beneficially treated, but that is certainly not true of
The Secretary of State said that education is a mirror the great city of Birmingham.
on society, and sadly that is true. Our education system
today reflects the society that 10 years of Tory Government Chris Grayling: What we know is that standards have
have left. There is a simple lesson that we have learned: risen around the country, and this is an exercise in
education and austerity simply do not mix. levelling up funding, with a commitment to provide an
Several hon. Members rose— absolute minimum to every pupil in the secondary
sector and every pupil in the primary sector. That surely
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. A is the right way to go about it. On top of that, there is
substantial number of Members have put in to speak today directed funding to meet the individual needs of individual
and we will have nine maiden speeches. No time limit areas.
will be imposed at the moment, but I ask that Members My first request is about one of those individual
show some self-restraint. needs. Will the Secretary of State look carefully at the
small number of schools in my area and others with a
2.16 pm disproportionate number of special needs pupils? We have
Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I welcome a real opportunity here. Headteachers in those schools
you back to the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker; it is a great are saying that they are finding it an increasing burden
pleasure to see you back in your rightful place. It is also on their shoulders to deal not just with the special needs
a great pleasure to talk about a Queen’s Speech that will issues but with the issues that often surround those
bring stability to this Parliament. Those of us who were special needs pupils. The two Secretaries of State here
here before the election will remember the previous today would do those schools a great favour if they
Queen’s Speech, when we had anything but stability. could consider ways of strengthening the partnership
This time, we have a programme that is full of good between local authorities and those schools in dealing
ideas and the right strategies for this country, and this with the individual challenges presented by the more
Queen’s Speech will be delivered on. Top of the list will troubled students. Particularly in the primary sector,
be the ability to deliver all the measures in it on Brexit. some schools are still facing financial challenges because
After two years in which Parliament has been unable to of the sheer volume of special needs in their schools. I
make up its mind, we now have a Parliament that will be am thinking specifically about some, though not many,
very capable of doing so. That is good for the country of the schools in my own constituency.
as we go through the Brexit process. The embodiment
of that is the fact that we have so many maiden speeches Jonathan Gullis: I refer my right hon. Friend to the
waiting to be given. I wish all my new colleagues the example of schools in Solihull. At Solihull Academy,
very best for their careers here, and I wish the best to we saw 13 headteachers come together and pour an
those making their maiden speeches this afternoon. equal amount of money into the pot to set up alternative
provision for children with special educational needs
I will keep my remarks relatively brief, as you asked, and attendance and behavioural issues. Is that a model
Mr Deputy Speaker, but I have two requests to make of the Government could consider?
the Secretary of State for Education and the Secretary
of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, Chris Grayling: Absolutely. I mentioned the two
who are here this afternoon. On education, I do not Secretaries of State, rather than just the one, precisely
recognise what I just heard from the hon. Member for because I think partnership is one way to ease pressure
Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), who spoke for on heads in schools and create a better package of
the Opposition. Over the past 10 years, education standards support for those young people.
in this country have risen. Step by step, we have turned
around a difficult financial situation and we are now The other area brought to my attention is the funding
able to put back investment into our schools. It has situation for academy trusts that have found themselves
been very welcome that the schools in my constituency under pressure in the last couple of years. The increased
are receiving an increase of almost 5% in the coming funding settlement will help, but will the Secretary
financial year. My headteachers are very grateful for of State for Education reconsider the way we support
that and see it as a significant step in the right direction, academy trusts so that we can do everything we can to
and they know that that improvement will come over ensure that they can deliver the full benefits of the
the next two years. I am grateful to the Prime Minister partnerships they offer?
for listening to those of us who said to him over the past I want to move on to housing and local planning.
year that this is so important for the schools, young Mr Deputy Speaker, you will know that the Queen’s
people, families and teachers in our constituencies, but I Speech contained further welcome measures to support
have two requests for the Secretary of State. the growth of first-time buyers in the housing market
and the provision of housing in this country. It is much
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): The needed. I cannot believe there are many of us who do
right hon. Gentleman talks about largesse on the part not deal with the challenges in our constituencies of
of Government. How does he therefore explain a situation families who cannot get homes in the social housing
919 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 920

[Chris Grayling] I give this commitment to the Secretary of State: I

intend to play an active role in making sure that my
sector and are struggling even to get into the rented constituency delivers the homes we need—that is essential
sector, let alone to buy their own home. We need to —and that we use the tools in the Queen’s Speech to
build more houses. I think that unites most people on support first-time buyers, who should have the opportunity
both sides of the House. to live and work locally, but I also want an inspectorate
We have to do that in the smartest possible way, however, that is wise enough to work alongside local politicians
and help local authorities that have particular challenges to deliver that and does not just shoehorn in developments
to meet the needs of their areas. I represent three local that are inappropriate for the area.
authority areas. Conservative-controlled Reigate and That is all I wanted to say. I am grateful to the two
Banstead has done a very good job of putting together Secretaries of State for the conversations I have had
a local plan and delivering a sensible strategy for the future. with them over the past few months about some of these
Liberal Democrat-controlled Mole Valley District Council issues—I intend to carry on having those conversations—
has only just started bringing forward its plans and but I am also very proud to be standing here as part of a
ideas. I await the detail in the coming weeks, but I fear majority Conservative Government delivering a Queen’s
that it will still try to build on substantial parts of the Speech that is full of the things this country needs and
green belt, which we must seek to resist wherever possible. ideas that will transform people’s lives. We will hear lots
The particular challenge—my right hon. Friend the of nonsense from the Opposition Benches, but people
Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local should not pay the slightest attention to it. The Government
Government is aware of my concern—is in the borough are delivering, will carry on delivering and will make a
of Epsom and Ewell, which is the majority of my real difference to Britain.
constituency. It is the most densely populated borough
in Surrey, and its open spaces, such as they exist, are 2.26 pm
almost entirely green belt, so there are relatively few
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): I
opportunities to build new housing without encroaching
welcome you to your new position, Mr Deputy Speaker.
on the restrictions around green-belt development and
without building disproportionately high buildings that I am slightly concerned by the closing remarks of the
would destroy the character of the area. right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling)
There are ways of solving this problem. I have put about not paying the blindest bit of attention to those
some ideas to the local borough as to how it can do on the Opposition Benches. The purpose of the Opposition
that. One is by integrating residential and commercial is to scrutinise Government, and a Government that
development in mid-height developments in parts of has a free rein to do what it wishes is a very dangerous
Epsom and Ewell where there is an opportunity to tool, so we should all be aware that while we might not
create not just housing but economic opportunities. In agree politically on different issues, we should be listening
the University for the Creative Arts, we have one of the and paying attention to points raised, regardless of
best creative universities in the country, if not in Europe. where they come from.
We can harness the skills of the young people coming On education, the Queen’s Speech had a lot of small
out of that university to build new businesses in the area promises that are not going to deliver the punch required.
and provide homes adjoining them so that those young In our considerations, we have to ask whether education
people can develop businesses and live close by. is about personal gain or societal good. If it is about
We will need two things to deliver the right approach personal gain, why should we be that bothered? If it is
for the area. The first is wisdom from the Planning about societal good, education must be from early years
Inspectorate. It has to work with us. It is all too easy for to employment and must be provided by Government,
it to come in, follow a broad-brush national guideline regardless of the path a young person takes. Every year
and not actually consider the local circumstances or round about the time of national exam results there is a
work with the local authority and local politicians to great campaign called NoWrongPath. There is no wrong
deliver the right strategy for the area. My message for path—different young people will take different routes
the Secretary of State is this: the more he can encourage to achieve what they want—but we must be there to
the inspectorate to take a wise, thoughtful and strategic support them, financially and in other ways, because this
approach, the easier it will be for those of us who is not just about getting young people to university; it is
believe we have to provide additional homes to ensure about positive destinations and employment. Some 93% of
that happens. young people in Scotland achieve positive destinations,
The second thing is that, particularly in densely populated which is the highest in the UK, and that means employment,
areas with limited opportunities for development, there training and tertiary education. I talk about tertiary
will be a limit to the number of years for which these education, rather than higher and further education,
extra houses can be provided. We cannot build 500 or because in Scotland the lines are blurred, and should be
600 houses a year in perpetuity. While I believe we have blurred regardless of where someone lives in the UK. It
to put our foot on the accelerator and deliver more should not be about HE being the gold standard and
housing right now, I hope that the inspectorate will not FE being something different. We need to work in
be encouraged simply to come back and say, “You have collaboration, and all types of tertiary institutions have
to make this provision in perpetuity. You have to provide their place.
sites going on and on into the future”. The national planning The investment in FE in the Queen’s Speech will not
policy framework states specifically that we must provide have clout if FE is considered second best to HE. The
housing and look after the local economy, but we must £1.8 billion to upgrade the infrastructure does not come
also make development sustainable, so there will be a close to what is required for FE in England. Frankly, it
limit to how far into the future we can carry on building is too little too late. A lot of that money will be used up
in areas that are already intensely developed. dealing with a backlog of maintenance problems and
921 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 922

ongoing issues. Given the huge number of locations These are the questions on which we should be judging
delivering FE in England, what has been proposed is our young people. Are they in employment? Yes. Are
merely a small sticking plaster to cover a huge, gaping they having a positive experience? Yes. Are they developing
wound. the skills that employers and businesses are asking for?
City of Glasgow College, in the constituency of my Absolutely.
hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison
Thewliss), is one of the institutions that have benefited Jonathan Gullis: The hon. Lady has mentioned PISA.
from the £810 million invested by the Scottish Government Does she not share the concern of Conservative and, I
since 2007. That is approximately 45% of the amount hope, Opposition Members about the decline among
that the UK Government are proposing to invest in FE students in Scotland in maths and science—which provide
in England, which is far closer to the figure that is the vital skills to which she referred—in comparison
required. Scaled up, it would be £8 billion, not £1.8 billion. with their compatriots in England?
City of Glasgow College benefited hugely from the Carol Monaghan: When I look at the tiny differences
Scottish Government’s investment, receiving £228 million between students in England and students in Scotland—and
to create a “supercampus” for 40,000 youngsters there are tiny differences—and at the holistic education
in Glasgow. The college sits between two higher that has been developed in Scotland, no, I do not share
education institutions, Strathclyde and Glasgow Caledonian that concern. Scottish students are developing a broad
Universities. For a long time, youngsters attending colleges range of skills. Unlike youngsters in England whose
felt second best because their institutions looked second curriculum is being squeezed and narrowed, they still
best, but City of Glasgow College is the absolute jewel have a broad range from which to choose. No: I absolutely
of Cathedral Street in the centre of Glasgow, and no defend our Scottish education system. In the last 10 years,
young people studying at that college consider themselves our attainment gap has narrowed, while we are still
to be second best. battling with the effects of austerity. The hon. Gentleman
Let me say something about schools. School funding is a teacher. I am a teacher too. I have been there, trying
is an ongoing issue. In England, according to the Institute to teach children who have had no breakfast. How can
for Fiscal Studies, school spending per pupil has fallen we deal with an attainment gap when the kids who we
by 8% in real terms since 2010. That entirely contradicts are teaching are so hungry that they cannot concentrate?
the Prime Minister, who has said that school spending is That is what we should be looking at.
at record levels. I mentioned teachers’ pay earlier. It is a bold statement
that, by September 2022, the Government will increase
Sir Desmond Swayne: The two are not mutually exclusive. teachers’ starting salary to £30,000. Great; fantastic;
School funding is at record levels, although pupil numbers but Scotland is already there. From this year, after their
grew faster during that period, putting pressure on and initial probation year, Scottish teachers will be earning
reducing the amount per pupil. Will the hon. Lady accept £32,994. That is happening now, but unfortunately this
that, even given that reduction, we still spend more per Government are miles behind. If we are talking about
pupil than any other rich nation in the world—more than teaching as a profession—if we are talking about valuing
Japan or Germany—with the exception of the USA? the very people who make the difference to our young
people—we need to pay them properly.
Carol Monaghan: But you spend significantly less per The Secretary of State did not answer my question
pupil than we spend in Scotland. Even with the about the guaranteeing of teaching salaries in academies.
Government’s proposals—even with the increase in per- For too long, academies have been able to set their own
pupil funding—you are still not coming close to what pay scales, and to work outside the scales that are
we are spending per pupil. negotiated with teachers’ unions and the profession.
Academies pay what they want, and that means, once
Sir Desmond Swayne: And the results in Scotland are again, that they are able to pay salaries that are below
not as good as those in England. Not every problem is the nationally agreed levels. Yes, in some cases they may
solved by throwing more money at it. Just look at the pay above, but they often pay below, and that is certainly
studies by the Programme for International Student not the way to encourage others to join the profession.
Assessment which were released only recently. In Scotland we have more teachers per pupil, and that
too must be looked at: while the Government are sorting
Carol Monaghan: I am glad that the right hon. out the salary, they might deal with that as well.
Gentleman has mentioned the PISA studies, because Let me now say something about tertiary education.
that gives me an opportunity to talk about them. Let us We in Scotland are often attacked about the number of
talk about PISA. What exactly is it? It is an extremely youngsters achieving entry to university. As I have said,
crude metric that looks at very particular things. What I do not make the distinction, but for the benefit of
it does not look at are communication skills. It does not those who do, I will say some things about universities.
look at problem-solving skills, and it does not look at The largest-ever number of Scottish students are at
employability skills. Those are the very skills that employers universities, and record numbers of our poorest students
have been asking for, which is why we transformed our are going to them: 15.6% of full-time first-degree entrants
curriculum in Scotland. Countries that do well in PISA, are from the most deprived areas of Scotland. That is
such as China and South Korea, also have extremely tackling inequality in a real way.
high levels of student suicide. I do not want that for In January last year, the Commissioner for Fair Access,
my young people in Scotland, and not one of us Sir Peter Scott, said that “significant, and welcome
should. China also selects the pupils whom it puts progress” had been made on access, and that
forward for PISA. So there are many things that are “Scotland is now the pace-setter among UK nations in fair access
wrong with it. to higher education”.
923 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 924

[Carol Monaghan] of concern, as is Erasmus and what Brexit will mean for
that programme. We know about the benefits of young
He went on to say that Scotland’s improving widening access people coming here on Erasmus and of our young people
figures vindicated our free tuition policy. He said: managing to travel throughout Europe on Erasmus. They
“The latest figures vindicate Scotland’s policy of free higher are young people for whom this opportunity would not
education, which of course has other aims apart from making historically have been available, and it will potentially
universities more socially inclusive—not least the commitment not be available again. It would be useful if the Minister
that higher education should be seen as a public good from which could confirm whether it is the Government’s intention
society as a whole benefits and not just as a private investment
producing higher earnings for individuals.”
for us to continue to associate with Erasmus and whether
we are going to pay into it.
Sir Desmond Swayne: I thank the hon. Lady for
giving way again. She is most generous. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): When the Secretary
How can it be a vindication for a Scottish university of State opened the debate, he spoke about the importance
such as St Andrews—a Scottish university—to limit its of Erasmus, but does my hon. Friend find the Government’s
intake of Scottish students to 20% of the university warm words about Erasmus bizarre, given that they
population? voted against the amendment to the Brexit legislation
last week that would have committed them to working
Carol Monaghan: Despite that, more Scottish students with Erasmus?
are achieving a university education than ever before. I
am happy with that. Carol Monaghan: Yes, and we are talking about very
There has again been a nod to the Augar review, which little money. It really is a small amount of money that
was mentioned by the shadow Secretary of State. would allow our continued participation and that valuable
“Considering thoughtfully the recommendations made and rich experience for young people to continue, so
in the Augar review”: what does that mean? What does this makes absolutely no sense to us.
it mean for the higher education institutions that are I have yet to see any evidence, in the few years that I
thinking about their funding for August and September have been a Member of this Parliament, of this Government
this year? Will it be £7,500, or will it be £9,250? What really considering education to be a societal good. We
will the fees be? saw the abandonment of the nursing bursary. Obviously,
Of course we would welcome any reduction in fees we then had a drop in applications. The Government
for students in England. That would be of benefit, but it then partially went back on that, but nurses will still
will not be of benefit to have student loans with no time have to pay them £9,000-odd a year, regardless of the
limit. At the moment, we write them off after a period nursing bursary, so I am not seeing that.
of time, but to allow those student loans ad infinitum,
The Secretary of State also talked of collaboration
as is being suggested, is extremely worrying. We would
and the sharing of best practice between Scotland and
be burdening young people not with 30 years of debt
England. That is brilliant. I am really pleased to hear
but with a lifetime of debt.
that, and I hope that he is going to match our per-pupil
Scotland’s universities are internationally successful but funding, our teacher-pupil ratio, our teachers’pay, including
we know that Brexit threatens that, and we have not had for teachers in academies, and our commitment to
the assurances we need at this stage to put our minds further and higher education. I also hope that, rather
at ease. than giving young people debt through fees of £9,000-odd
Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): Does the hon. Lady agree or £7,000 a year, this Government will look at abandoning
with my concern that institutions such as Aberystwyth tuition fees altogether. Let us look to best practice: look
University in Wales still have no clarity as to whether to Scotland.
they will receive the same level of investment for research
and innovation as they did under the European structural 2.44 pm
funds? Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con):
Carol Monaghan: Yes, absolutely. We have had these The first thing to say is that I will not focus solely on
generous promises of money to match European funds. education today. As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I
I would like to see us continuing in Horizon 2020 or always focus on my favourite line in the Queen’s Speech,
the next version of it. That would be the best way. I am which is the last one:
concerned about the funding, because it is important “Other measures will be laid before you.”
for any research group or higher education institution. It gives us the option of talking about whatever we like.
However, this is not just about the funding; it is about the I should also, en passant, like to say a personal thank
collaboration. When we start removing European funding, you to the Secretary of State for his announcement of
we also remove the infrastructure around rich collaborations the extra funding for special needs. He may know that I
that have been going on for many decades. Also, EU have a special interest in this, a personal interest, and
staff account for about 11% of our staff in Scotland, this funding will go to a very important sector.
but they are still not sure what their position is. This Queen’s Speech was the longest ever Queen’s Speech
A recent report from the Royal Society has shown I have known in terms of duration. At the beginning of
that the UK’s share of EU funding has fallen by the debate on the Queen’s Speech before Christmas, my
¤500 million since 2015. There has also been a drop of hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire
40% in UK applications to Horizon 2020. We are still in (Lee Rowley) said that these had been “troubled times”
it just now, but we have had that drop because people do for Parliament. But that is always the case when this
not have any certainty. The UK is now seen as a less country faces a point of inflection and a change of
attractive place to come and do research, with 35% fewer historic position. Our nation now faces a reset moment
scientists coming to the UK through key schemes. That is on a par with 1945, when the Attlee Government came
925 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 926

in, and with 1979, when the Thatcher Government Now, what has been the effect of that change in
came in. Both of them had enormous national problems productivity? What is the size of the impact? Had
to solve, and we are in the same position. Thatcher’s productivity continued at the level it had been for the
revolution, controversial as it was, was above all a previous 60 years, had we not had the financial collapse,
revolution of expectations, in which the United Kingdom which happened largely under the watch of the Labour
once more realised it was able to stand on its own two Government and the earlier Clinton Administration in
feet. In truth, we are facing something similar today. the US, then wages, income and the economy would
However, in the next decade, Brexit will not be the biggest have been about 22% bigger than they are today. The
challenge to the UK Government and our nation. Fast tax take would have been higher, the deficit would have
globalisation of trade and massive technological change been easier to pay off, austerity would have been more
will create bigger challenges and bigger opportunities manageable and shorter. All those things stemmed not
even than Brexit. In the past 30 years, that globalisation just from the crash, but from the damage to our ability
has raised half the world out of poverty, but that trend to recover from the crash as productivity was allowed to
is not secure. We as a nation need to be ready to collapse. This dramatic and apparently permanent reduction
act, both politically to ensure that free trade remains in productivity has had spectacular consequences across
central to the world’s economic operating systems, and the whole of society and the entire economy, and that is
commercially to seize the advantages in that for ourselves. what we have to solve.
Brexit is the catalyst in that process; it is not the outcome. The productivity problem is a universal problem. No
Brexit by itself is not enough. To exploit the opportunities productivity means no progress. How do we deal with
given to us by Brexit, we need to overhaul British society that? The answers include education, skills, training,
and the British economy. That is the challenge in front research and investment, and of course, as the hon.
of us. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) rightly said,
infrastructure. If we are to reset our economy and our
High-quality public services, education, healthcare,
society, we must be unflinching in our analysis and in
social support and the rule of law are vital parts of a
the critique of our own past as well as those of the other
decent society, but the Government can provide them
parties.
only if they have the resources to pay for them. That is
our first challenge, and the fundamental weakness in all
the Opposition arguments so far today. The reason why Mr Betts: The right hon. Gentleman denigrates the
Labour lost hundreds of thousands of votes in the efforts, policies and achievements of the previous Labour
north of England is that nobody believed it was able to Government on productivity. Will he therefore explain
pay for its promises. The public were right, as always, why productivity went up by over 2% under that Labour
and the Labour party was wrong. Government on a consistent basis? Since 2010, however,
productivity has hardly risen at all.
So what will dictate whether we are able to meet our
own aims for our society? The key issue that determines
the affluence of citizens, the delivery of public services Mr Davis: Productivity had been at that level for
and even the level of opportunity in society is one 60 years. It is not difficult to keep things the same as
boring technical term: productivity. From shortly after they were before; the really hard thing is to smash
the war in 1948, when they started measuring it, until productivity down from 2.3% to 0.5%, which is what the
2008, productivity in this country—whether it was total hon. Gentleman’s Government did.
productivity or labour productivity—grew by 2.25% a If we are to reset the economy, let us look at what we
year. It bounced around a bit, but never by very much. got wrong, as well as at what Labour got wrong. Take
It grew by 2.25%, year on year, every year in the research. The past 30 years, under Governments of all
60 years from 1948 to 2008. Since 2008, it has been persuasions, have seen the UK decline from one the
at 0.5%. most research-intensive economies to one of the least.
In the past decade, China has overtaken us, and South
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): On that point Korea now spends three times as much as we do. The
about productivity, people in my constituency and Queen’s Speech committed to establishing the UK as a
constituencies across the country cannot get trains or world leader in science with greater investment—so far
buses because the infrastructure has been decimated. so good. In my view, we need to do even more than that
That is because it has not been invested in for the past in quantitative terms. In the short term, we need to double
10 years or so, and that has a real impact on productivity the amount of research spend not just by the Government,
up and down the country. How are the Government but by the private sector. In the longer run, we need to
going to address that? treble that joint expenditure, and I stress that it should
be joint expenditure. We should also address the things
Mr Davis: I will come directly to the hon. Gentleman’s that we have not been so good at. It is easy to put
question later in my speech. He is exactly right in one money into genetics, artificial intelligence, self-driving
respect: that is a contributory factor for productivity. cars or IT—the things we are historically world leaders
But he should not look just at the past 10 years if he in—but we should also try to ensure that that money
wants to comment about our infrastructure. The most goes where it will make a big difference by improving
used phrase by George Osborne when he was Chancellor the things that we have not been so good at.
was to say, while pointing at Gordon Brown, that he Historically, we have not been so good at what is
never mended the roof when the sun was shining. That called translational research. That means taking a good
is exactly what happened through those Labour years: idea from the laboratory and making a great product,
profligate spending—poor spending, inadequate spending which leads to a great company, which leads to more
—that nevertheless did not provide the services that and more jobs, more wealth creation, more tax and the
we needed. rest of it. We would do well to build on some of the
927 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 928

[Mr David Davis] The Secretary of State was eloquent about the
achievements at school level, and he was right. While I
great institutions that we currently have. The University am on my feet, I pay tribute to the Minister for School
of Sheffield Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, Standards, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bognor
which is essentially an aviation-based operation, is doing Regis and Littlehampton (Nick Gibb), who did a fabulous
fantastic, world-class, world-beating work. We should job of developing phonics-based education—[Interruption.]
do similar things with the Warwick Manufacturing Oh, he is there on the Front Bench. He did a fabulous
Group. There is a great deal of work to do to encourage job on phonics—one of the great successes of all the
those operations and build on them. Maybe we should Education Departments of the past 30 years. Of course,
even look to build a Massachusetts Institute of Technology I take it as a given that we have done better than Labour
of the north, because that is the sort of thing that we would have and, of course, we have mostly kept up with
should be considering if we are to fix our economy. our international competitors. However, to use a phrase
I have some sympathy with one area of Opposition that came up more times than any other in my school
Members’ comments, which is the university underpinning reports, my reaction is, “Can do better.” That was the
of the research and the response to the Augar report. I theme or motto of my school reports, and I think we
know Philip Augar very well, and I spoke to him about can do better here.
his review before the report. If anything, it pulled its In the friendliest possible way, we are not doing what
punches. The truth is that the university tuition fees and some of our competitors, including the Chinese, the
loans scheme invented and implemented by the Blair Uruguayans, believe it or not, and the Belgians, are
Government and carried on by us has failed. It has done doing, which is seizing an opportunity. Technology is
a bad job. It has delivered poor-quality education, high such that we ought to be re-engineering the classroom.
levels of expectations and low levels of outcome. It has We ought to be able to re-engineer it so that the best can
landed young people—some are now middle-aged—with do better and the least good can be pulled up to the best
liabilities for almost their entire lives, putting a cap on possible outcome. That would be great for them, great for
their aspirations. It has not delivered what it was intended social mobility, and great for the economy as a whole.
to deliver, which was people paying for their component, We ought to think hard about looking closely at all the
not the public advantage component. It does not work that things China has done. Something like 1,300 schools
way. It has encouraged all sorts of perverse consequences are now using artificial intelligence, which is driving its
and behaviours in our universities, so we must deal with teaching systems and ensuring that every child is diagnosed
it. I would argue to the Secretary of State for Education—I to find what they are good at and what they are not
know that this is wider and much bigger than just the good at. There is much to be done there.
Department for Education—that he and his colleagues Productivity, however, will have to be fixed with a
should be radical and brave. universal approach, and that includes, of course, investment.
Mr Sheerman: When we do things on a cross-party On an international scale, we do investment well. With
basis, we sometimes get it right. When we had that all the furore and negativity about Brexit, people forget
agreement on higher education funding—the Dearing that we are still the third-highest recipient of foreign
report—we said that there should be a balance between direct investment in the world—way above any European
who pays: the student who benefits, the employer that country—and we have been for years and we will continue
benefits, and the country as a whole that benefits. What to be. We must not damage that. When we come to the
went wrong was not that there was a student contribution, question of domestic investment, which has been up
but it was raised too far and too fast. and down in recent years, we must ask ourselves what
should guide our policies. We have the most productive
Mr Davis: That was not the only thing that went industries in Europe by far, and the least productive. We
wrong. I recommend that the hon. Gentleman reads the have nine of the 25 fastest growing companies in Europe,
Augar report carefully, because a lot of things went but we have a long tail of poor performance. One notable
wrong, including the lack of restrictions on what universities aspect of the productivity conundrum that stands out is
could do. However, if he wants to approach the Secretary that it is not uniform.
of State or have his Front-Bench team approach the
The key point in this debate is that it is the same
Secretary of State to offer a joint approach, I am sure
regionally, because the golden triangle of London, Oxford
that the Secretary State will be very polite and talk it
and Cambridge has by far the highest productivity in
over with them over a cup of tea.
Europe—the average wage in that area is 90% higher
Carol Monaghan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give than the European average—yet some regions of our
way? economy are down with the lowest performers in the
European Union, such as southern Italy and the old
Mr Davis: Yes, but this must be the last time. East Germany. I hope the Scots Nats forgive me for
including Scotland as a region in that context.
Carol Monaghan: Does the right hon. Gentleman
share my concerns about the suggestion in the Augar We have to do something about that. Where productivity
review that the time limit on paying back should be is low, jobs are scarce and, of course, wages are low,
removed? That could saddle people with university debt which is a fundamental problem that this Parliament
for life. needs to attack. It argues for targeted policies like free
ports and, to come directly to the point made by the
Mr Davis: My point here is that we are not about hon. Member for Weaver Vale, for a great focus on—forgive
tinkering with one or two rules. We should be rethinking me for the phrase—unglamorous, smaller infrastructure
the whole system. The hon. Lady will forgive me if I do projects designed to sort out problems that are on the
not go down the route that she has laid for me, because deck now. We must de-bottleneck the whole economy,
we should think about rethinking the whole system. because that is much more likely to be effective than
929 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 930

grand vanity projects, and everyone knows what I am than any other part of the public sector. When we come
talking about. We can do that because we will have very to the comprehensive spending review, it cannot simply
low interest rates for the foreseeable future. If that is not be about rearranging the amount of money as part of
enough, perhaps we should cancel High Speed 2 to pay some fair funding settlement; it must actually put more
for it. money into local councils so that they can deliver the
A strategy of modestly sized infrastructure projects— services that our communities want and need.
road, rail, air and broadband—will help but, again, it With a time limit rule, I had thought that I would not
will not be enough by itself. We need to make it more be able to stand again as Chair of the Housing,
attractive to stay in the regions. We need to turn more of Communities and Local Government Committee, but I
our regional towns and cities into magnet towns and cities, understand the Government might be thinking about
places that attract talent, money and enterprise, and it removing the time limit. If so, and if the House supports
can be done. If we look around the world, there are dozens it, I will probably allow my name to be put forward again.
of examples. From Bilbao to Pittsburgh, and from Denver
to Tel Aviv, cities have transformed their futures. We There are things in the Queen’s Speech with which
must ensure that our towns and cities can do the same. I do not necessarily agree. If the Labour party were in
government, I am sure we would have done things
Finally, house building has simply not kept up with differently, but my approach to life as a Select Committee
the huge increase in population over the past 20 years. Chair was to try to find areas where we can reach agreement
Year after year, the combination of a slow planning and encourage, prod and enthuse the Government into
process, nimbyism and speculative land hoarding has going further than they might want to. I will briefly
limited the availability of housing. This has simultaneously mention three areas.
led to higher house prices, smaller homes—our homes
are now half the size they were in the 1920s, and they First, on devolution, I welcome the Government’s
are the smallest in Europe—massively lower rates of commitment to levelling up the powers of the Mayors
home ownership, and severe rent poverty. of the combined authorities. I hope the Government
It is hard to solve that in London and the crowded might do more and give them all more powers, particularly
south-east, but it can be solved in the provinces, making on skills, training and transport. Those Departments
them more attractive in the process. The Government probably have not been as enthusiastic about devolution
are actively thinking about garden villages and garden as others have been.
towns, and we should step up that programme. If we I would also like the Government to address two
allowed every planning authority in the country to other matters in the White Paper. Mayoral combined
nominate one garden village or garden town of between authorities probably should be rolled out in other areas,
1,500 and 5,000 houses, which is big enough to be viable but devolution, if it is to work properly in this country,
for a school and shops, and so on, we would not solve, has to be devolution to all councils in all places, not just
but we would seriously mitigate, our housing problem. to those in combined authorities. I hope the Government
We would make it attractive for people to live in places will seriously consider that. They were going to do it
other than the south-east. Again, that would majorly with their 100% business rate retention policy, but it
improve productivity by attracting talent back out to was dropped when we went to 75% retention.
the provinces.
The problem of productivity is a tough one to tackle The other key issue is: how can we allow local authorities
but tackle it we must. Research, investment, education, to raise more of their own funds, rather than simply
infrastructure, magnet cities and garden villages all have having more power to spend the money that is handed
a contribution to make in simultaneously improving the out to them? We have the most centralised system of
lives of our citizens and helping us to solve this fundamental local government funding anywhere in Europe, and that
problem. If we do not solve it, we will not be able to needs to change.
afford to solve any of the others. Secondly, the Government are offering an all-party
If we do all of that, we will have a very good chance approach to social care, which I welcome. The Housing,
of making the Prime Minister’s promise of a golden Communities and Local Government Committee and
future a reality for all our citizens. the Health and Social Care Committee produced a
unanimous report in the last Parliament, with 22 MPs
Several hon. Members rose— from both sides of the House recommending a social
care premium and a percentage of inheritance tax as a
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I remind way of funding social care. The report has been lying
everybody that there are now 35 people on the list, around for 18 months. We have a blueprint to get on
including nine maiden speeches. We want to be fair to with it. Germany did it 30 years ago in a cross-party,
those who are making their maiden speeches. I am not consensual way, and it has worked there, with the public
imposing a time limit, but please have in mind that you generally supporting it. I hope there will be a genuine
each have about six minutes. That will ensure people at attempt by both Front Benches to reach cross-party
least get in. agreement. It is on both sides to take this forward in a
consensual way.
3.4 pm
Finally, I generally welcome the promises on housing,
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Thank but obviously there are big challenges. The first is the
you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is good to see you in your abolition of section 21 evictions. We know that evictions
rightful place again, in the Chair. from private sector housing are a major cause of home-
I make no apology for saying that I want to be a lessness in this country. The Housing, Communities and
champion for local government in this Parliament. Over Local Government Committee’s inquiry into homelessness
the past 10 years, local government has had bigger cuts identified that as a problem.
931 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 932

[Mr Clive Betts] “We don’t think this is quite as dangerous”, because the
fact is that that cladding on a building means that
Equally, if we are to abolish section 21 evictions, we people will not buy, and people cannot get a mortgage
need to think about how we deal with rent increases and are stuck. The Minister needs to act at some point
without having an overbearing rent control regime. on that. The freeholders have not got the money to pay
That is a big challenge, and it might be something the for this and neither have the leaseholders, and people
Select Committee will want to consider. We recognise are stuck in unsaleable properties, which is a real difficulty
the good intention, but we want to know how it will be for them.
delivered in practice.
Kevin Hollinrake: I very much hope that the hon.
At the same time, we want to see legislation on Gentleman does stand again to be Chair, because it has
housing courts so that there is an easier way for landlords been a pleasure to serve on the Select Committee under
to evict tenants who simply do not pay their rent. his tutelage over the past four and a half years. He
Landlords normally wait for the section 21 time to mentions not only the problems of local authority
elapse before doing it, but if section 21 is not available, financing and their finances, but the social care premium.
landlords need to have those powers. It is recognised in Does he see those two things as being correlated? The
the Queen’s Speech, but we need a timetable for that to biggest issue for local authorities is the funding of
come into effect. social care, and if a different solution is provided for
Another issue is how we deal with the problems of that, the financial pressure on many local authorities is
leases. Reference was made to a draft Bill at Question relieved.
Time yesterday, and I think that is probably the right
way forward. I know it will take a bit longer, but there Mr Betts: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right
are some real challenges, not about how we stop leases about that, although perhaps I should call him my hon.
on new houses and deal with the unfairness of leases on Friend for this purpose, given how we have worked
new flats, but about how we tackle the problems of together on the Select Committee. The problem with
existing leases, including the unfairness in how some of the great and rising demand for social care is that it
them have been sold, the unfair service charges and the means that there is proportionately less money to be
difficulties people have in buying their freehold. The spent on important things such as the environment,
Select Committee’s report recommended action on all road repairs and refuse collection, the things that everybody
those challenges. It is much more difficult to deal with receives from their local council. Many people then
existing leases, and a draft Bill is therefore probably the start to say, “Why am I paying my council tax? I am
right way forward to try to make sure that we get all the getting less and less for paying more and more.” That
nuances and the details correct. Hopefully we can also issue can be addressed by a social care premium as well.
do that on a cross-party basis. Finally, on the cladding issue, it came to my attention
Finally, on the issue of cladding, there is a building over Christmas—I did a bit for the “You & Yours”
safety Bill in the Queen’s Speech to implement the programme—that the National House Building Council
recommendations of the Grenfell inquiry and the Hackitt is refusing to pay out on a warranty for properties
report, on which the Select Committee has had various where the cladding put on was not the right type but it
hearings. There is still a challenge. The Government had been improperly passed by the building inspector.
have put money in to deal with ACM—aluminium The NHBC said that it was not its building inspector
composite material—cladding, but there are still too and the warranty applied only in cases where its building
many properties where, because of disputes between inspector had done the work. That is a major loophole
freeholders and leaseholders, the cladding has not been in people’s circumstances. When people have bought a
removed. The Government need to put their weight house and got a warranty, they think that that warranty
behind getting that work carried out. is going to cover them for defective materials. However,
The second issue to address is what to do about other if that defective material was passed off by a building
forms of cladding, such as zinc cladding and high-pressure inspector that was not the NHBC’s inspector, as in this
laminate cladding, which many experts believe are as case, they are not covered. I hope the Secretary of State
dangerous as ACM cladding. Although they will not be will look at that issue too. I recognise the time limit,
allowed on new buildings, they are still on existing Mr Deputy Speaker, but these are major issues that
buildings. Where leaseholders have this on their homes, arise from the Queen’s Speech. I hope that there will be
they often find that they cannot sell those homes and some cross-party working, perhaps through the Select
are stuck in them. That is a real problem and the Committee, that will help us move forward.
Government need to undertake a more comprehensive Several hon. Members rose—
review of that issue.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Robert
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): I am glad Halfon. If it is easier for you and you wish to remain
that the hon. Gentleman is making the point about the seated, please feel free to do so.
cladding in buildings, because this issue affects some
properties in my constituency too. We have different 3.13 pm
building standards in Scotland, but the UK Government’s Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy
advice note 14 is still having an impact on people’s Speaker, and many congratulations to you.
ability to get mortgages on their properties. Does he I strongly welcome this Queen’s Speech. I believe that
agree that urgent action needs to be taken by the skills, social justice, standards and support for the profession
Minister on this? should be the four interlocking foundations of this
Mr Betts: Yes, I do. People cannot sell their properties Government’s education programme. There is enormous
and they cannot get mortgages on them, and this whole area talent all over the country just waiting to be unleashed,
presents a real challenge. It is no use Ministers saying, but to do that we must help lower-skilled workers to
933 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 934

train and boost their wages. About 6 million adults are Ofsted. By offering teaching bursaries, retention payments,
not qualified to GCSE level. Many end up in low-paid salary bonuses and mentoring to good teachers in
jobs, their prospects dragged into the quicksand. A challenging areas, we can avoid the flight of local talent.
wave of lost opportunity is also about to come crashing Educational standards are improving. The proportion
down on the next generation, as a third of England’s of six-year-olds passing the phonics check increased
16 to 19-year olds lack basic skills. In addition, according from 58% in 2012 to 82% in 2018. More rigorous
to PwC, up to 28% of jobs taken by 16 to 24-year-olds apprenticeship standards are replacing older frameworks.
in the UK could be at risk of automation by the early In the past 10 years, 1.8 million more pupils studied in
2030s, so we must find answers quickly. good or outstanding schools. We have to build on that
First, the Government should turbocharge adult learning. and export rigour to every part of our education system,
Overall adult learning is at its lowest level since 1996, including technical education. I welcome the extra funding
and employer training has stagnated. Why not develop for further education and, in particular, the £2 billion
the national retraining scheme to focus on training for commitment to improving capital expenditure, but
low-skilled workers into roles that align with our labour FE financial resources have lagged behind other education
market? We need a world-class apprenticeships programme. sectors in the past few years. We should carefully calculate
The levy could be reformed so that it supports more and meet the required levels of investment beyond that,
apprenticeships in small and medium-sized enterprises including in respect of the resources that FE providers
and getting school leavers into areas of skills shortages. need to support English and maths retakes—after all,
Access to levy funds should be limited for firms that are pupils should not be leaving school without those basic
simply accrediting existing skills rather than adding skills in place.
new value, and more generous allowances should be The Government should also offer top-quality childcare.
made to employers who are upskilling low-skilled workers. Almost half of disadvantaged children are already behind
There needs to be a much clearer progression route when they start primary school, and good-quality childcare
from lower to higher apprenticeships. can help to plug this gap. Children who attend high-quality
It is time for a healthier balance between technical settings for two to three years are almost eight months
and academic learning. One way to solve some of the ahead of children who attend none. However, some of
problems in higher education that my right hon. Friend our early years workforce is underqualified. There is
the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) considerable scope to scale up apprenticeships, and we
pointed out in his speech is by rocket-boosting degree should use higher-level apprenticeships to address skills
apprenticeships. They should be the crown jewel in a shortages in early years and improve quality.
revamped technical offering: students earn while they The Government can help to support the profession
learn, there is no debt and they are almost guaranteed by offering more flexibility to teachers to hone their
to get a good skilled job at the end of it, and we meet trade and by helping schools to cover off-timetable
our skills and productivity needs. Apprenticeships and time. There should be more emphasis on peer support.
degree apprenticeships should be hard-wired into careers Although 30% of novice teachers in England are assigned
advice. mentors, the figure is higher in some OECD countries;
for instance, in New Zealand it is 56%.
Social justice must be the beating heart of our education
policy: a bold, assertive agenda that has compassion Finally, skills, social justice, standards and support
and aspiration right at its core. Despite the good work for the profession must be the four pillars of our education
of the Government, too many cohorts are being left programme. We have to extend the ladder of opportunity
behind. Disadvantaged pupils are 19 months behind by and invite those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds
the time they do their GCSEs, and some groups are to climb to the top so that they can get jobs, prosperity
particularly vulnerable; whereas the average national and security, and meet the skills needs of our nation.
attainment 8 score is 46.5, the rate for pupils with a We need to nurture that raw talent and focus relentlessly
special educational needs statement or education, health on addressing social injustice in education. In that way,
and care plan is 13.5, with the figure for looked after we can build the brightest future for everyone.
children being 18.8, and for white working-class pupils
it is 28.5. 3.20 pm
Everyone across the country should have access to a Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to
good school, but a child living in one of England’s follow the right hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon),
poorest areas is 10 times more likely to go to a substandard with whom I often agree and whom I will refer to later.
school than one living in its wealthier areas. According At the start of this new Parliament, with lots of
to Ofsted, between 2006 and 2019, 415 secondary maiden speeches, I decided to look back at my own
schools had at least four inspections that were not maiden speech four and a half years ago, in which I
good or outstanding, despite various interventions focused on the proud industrial past of the people of
aimed at improving them. Schools in many deprived Bristol South and the economic divisions that are rife in
areas also struggle to attract experienced teachers, who my constituency. I said that the biggest challenge we
are so instrumental in driving up quality. In the most faced was to equip people in Bristol South with the
disadvantaged quintile of areas, 67% of secondary schools skills and knowledge they need to secure a fair share of
are rated good or outstanding for the quality of teaching, Bristol’s great economic growth and prosperity. I spoke
whereas the figure is 93% in the wealthiest quintile. in support of greater devolution, driven by people in
These obstacles to learning should be dismantled. We communities, and the creation of a western powerhouse.
should support the development of local teachers and Four years on, what does this Queen’s Speech offer
incentivise highly commended initial teacher training us? We hear the rhetoric about the Tories’ love for
providers, such as the Redcar and Cleveland Teacher northern former Labour constituencies and the promise
Training Partnership, which was rated outstanding by of jam, but do not be fooled. The Tories have dominated
935 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 936

[Karin Smyth] towns is seen as a way of taking money from urban

areas and redistributing it, wrongly, to better-off areas
the south-west and the west for decades. They continue in the countryside.
to take voters for granted, and they have not invested in
the west country. The West of England Combined Karin Smyth: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.
Authority boasts on its website that it is a net contributor I will move briefly to climate change. Following Labour’s
to the Treasury, but there seems to be some doubt in the motion in the spring, we are agreed as a House that we
Office for National Statistics about whether it still is. I face a climate emergency. The Government have a target
suspect we may have gone backwards in the last four but no path to achieving it. I suggest that if they start to
years, but I am checking that statistic. Whether we are align a strategy on skills and apprenticeships to the green
talking about electrification, wider transport infrastructure jobs of the future, that will be of tremendous benefit to
or investment in education and skills, we are being held the people of Bristol South.
back by the Government, and the combined authority
has failed to deliver any meaningful change. Bristol is home to some great innovators and enterprises
working on the green agenda—for example, in the
Young people in Bristol South are the least likely in construction industry. I have supported the City of
the country to go to university, despite the fact that Bristol College, the West of England Combined Authority
there are two universities in the city and other Russell and the Government to bring the Construction Skills Centre
Group universities nearby. That is a scandal for our city, to Bristol South. In fact, when the right hon. Member
and I have to keep repeating that statistic. How have the for Harlow visited Bristol South we pointed to a piece
Government helped? We have evidence that early years of land that we wanted to ensure was used for the
is a key indicator of future success, but the Government centre; we hope to cut the turf on the site at Hengrove
have cut the legs from underneath Sure Start. Shockingly, later this month.
there is nothing in the Queen’s Speech about the maintained
nursery sector or its contribution to future attainment. Bristol and the west country are building, but we are
All primary schools in Bristol South have had their short of labour. Good training in construction jobs and
budgets cut since 2015. More than £15 million has been apprenticeships will directly help my constituents into
taken out of our schools—money that could be used to jobs. At the centre we need training for the future,
employ teaching staff and support staff, and to buy including training in green building and green technology,
teaching resources. Of course, cuts of that magnitude so that we meet the climate change targets. Currently
have had a severe impact on learning. The new allocation there is little investment in training on new materials,
may be welcome—we have yet to see it come through—but techniques and technology, which will equip young
it in no way repairs the damage that has been done. people for the jobs of the future. The Construction
Skills Centre in Bristol South provides a tremendous
There is virtually no A-level provision in Bristol opportunity; I am willing to work with the Government
South. Further education is the bridge to opportunity, to make the most of it.
be it access to A-levels or to level 2 and 3 adult education.
Shockingly, from 2012 to 2018 there was a decrease of Finally, the Government stated in the Queen’s Speech
more than 40% in the Government’s direct funding to that there will be a constitution, democracy and rights
our further education college. Providers are ready and commission. In my view that is long overdue. In my
willing to support the industrial strategy and improve speech in 2015, I warned that we all needed to heed the
our poor productivity, but they are reeling from the last message from the Scottish referendum; that was before
decade of cuts and struggling with the complicated the Brexit referendum. As vice-chair of the British-Irish
funding routes that the Government still insist on. That Parliamentary Assembly, I warned throughout the Brexit
is making life really difficult. debate of the dangers of ignoring voices from across
these islands, but also the voice of England within the
Apprenticeships are a way to support young people United Kingdom.
who are not going to university, and to support adults
who want to improve their opportunities. I have been a In July the Public Accounts Committee report into
vocal supporter of the Government’s apprenticeship funding in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland noted
programme. I have worked with the right hon. Member that the baseline funding and the Barnett formula were
for Harlow and his successor Minister to try to set some 40 years ago and that spending per head of
progress apprenticeships, and I hope jointly to chair the population on public services in England is the lowest in
all-party group on apprenticeships during this Parliament. the four nations at £9,080. It is not just the money. My
The Government have got it badly wrong with the English constituents have no democratic control or
implementation of apprenticeships, particularly by making accountability over our health service, our schools, our
the process complicated for small and medium-sized transport or our skills. The core institutions of our
enterprises, which are the bedrock of our industry in community are run by unaccountable and labyrinthine
Bristol South. The Government need to address that in bodies, be it clinical commissioning groups, multi-academy
this Parliament. trusts, local enterprise partnerships or the many ad hoc
partnerships that have grown up over the last 10, 20 or
Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): My hon. Friend is 30 years. These bodies are a law unto themselves and
making an excellent speech. I fully concur about the their civil servant masters in London have no accountability
lack of investment in education, not only in the west of to us locally.
England but across southern England and in many I will continue to support apprenticeships, early years
other places. My constituents are deeply concerned and the City of Bristol College to provide post-16 adult
about the shortage of teachers and the fact that the opportunities. We desperately need to secure decent
Government are not providing enough funding for schools. funding to support young people at their post-16 transition,
There is a lot of concern about the Government’s to help them to make the right decisions and nurture
rejigging of the funding formula, which in many English them, as we do those transitioning into reception classes
937 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 938

and into year 7. We need the combined authority to Ed’s departure is my considerable gain and I feel
better use its influence to get providers to work together extremely lucky to represent the people of Wantage. All
to make use of the available funding. Public service across the constituency we have beautiful villages; we
infrastructure is vital to reversing the education and have cutting-edge science and technology in Harwell
skills deficit, and the Government need to be much campus and Milton Park; we have small and medium-sized
bolder about the ambition for devolution in England so enterprises and multinational businesses; and we have
that we can build the western powerhouse that I talked first-rate farming that demonstrates every day how high
about four and a half years ago and give people in the standards of British agriculture are.
Bristol South the opportunity that they deserve. If the key challenges of my constituency can be
summed up in one word, it is infrastructure. In different
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Will Members parts of the constituency, that means different things.
observe the usual courtesies, please? To make his maiden In some places it is about road safety and trying to
speech, I call David Johnston. reopen Grove station, which was one of those lost
under the Beeching cuts; in other parts it is about GP
3.28 pm appointments and school places. In the more rural areas
it is about broadband. I know that lots of these issues
David Johnston (Wantage) (Con): Thank you very are familiar to Members on both sides of the House. So,
much, Mr Deputy Speaker, for letting me give my there is lots in the Queen’s Speech for me to welcome,
maiden speech this afternoon. I have to confess that I because improving infrastructure runs through it.
am glad to go first out of those giving their maiden The reason I wanted to speak today is because of
speeches today, because the quality that I have heard so education. As some Members of the House know, I had
far in my days in Parliament, from both sides of the never been a political candidate before last month;
House, has been so high that if I had had to listen to I had been chief exec of a charity, trying to improve
several while sitting here, I might have signalled to you education and employment opportunities. There was an
that I was changing my mind and would do it in a immediate contrast for me—a surprising baptism by
couple of months instead. fire—because when I was the chief exec of a charity and
I have the privilege of succeeding the right hon. I spoke at events, people in the audience would nod
Ed Vaizey as the Member for Wantage. I did not know encouragingly at the seeming wisdom of my remarks,
Ed before the campaign last month, but I would hear on but the second I became a political candidate, they
the doorstep about what a good constituency MP people would shake their heads disparagingly at the seeming
thought he had been. Of course, far beyond the constituency stupidity of my remarks. I had to get used to that very
he did so much to promote the UK’s creative and tech quickly, and I am grateful to Opposition Members for
industries, and I feel sure he will continue to do that in not doing it today, given that this is my maiden speech. I
his post-parliamentary life. am sure I can look forward to that in future.
For those who are not familiar with Wantage—I I attended a school where only 20% of people passed
know that some Members are familiar with it—it is any five GCSEs, never mind five good GCSEs. My
located in Oxfordshire. The constituency starts, at its mum left school at 16 and got a job as soon as she
eastern border, in the historic town of Wallingford, could. My dad left school at 14 and joined the Army as
which is a place of key moments in our history, not least soon as he could. After university, I spent the next
the Archbishop of Canterbury of the time being the last 16 years running organisations to provide opportunities
remaining resistance to William the Conqueror before to young people from similar backgrounds and far
he became King—it was at Wallingford that the archbishop more challenging backgrounds to get better education
submitted to his authority. and get a better job—in short, to try to improve social
As we move further west, we come to Didcot, which mobility. I would like to bring social mobility back into
is the largest town in the constituency. This is usually the debates in this House as much as I can, because last
the point at which people who are not sure where year it was referred to fewer than half the number of
Wantage is or whether they have been in the constituency times it was in 2016, yet many of us in this House have
say, “Ah yes, Didcot!”, because they have changed trains stories of having been socially mobile ourselves. We all
at Didcot Parkway station. I encourage people to leave represent parents in our constituencies who are concerned
the station and come to see all that Didcot has to offer. that their children may not have as good a life as they
A couple of years ago, it was judged England’s most had. That should be at the core of what we should be
normal town. I feel rather proud to represent England’s doing here.
most normal town.
There is lots in the Queen’s Speech for me to welcome.
Further west, we come to Wantage itself, birthplace First, there is the improvement in the per-pupil funding
of King Alfred the Great. A statue of him stands across schools, which helps to correct a historic imbalance
proudly in the market square. North-west of that is wherein some areas were given a lot more money to deal
Faringdon, which is another very picturesque market with the challenges of their pupils than other areas. I
town. It holds a special place in my heart because it is have looked at what it will mean for the schools in my
where they held the meeting to select the Conservative constituency, and it is a significant increase. I hope that
candidate for Wantage. some of the money can be used to attract teachers to
Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con): A historic moment. teach in more challenging areas, where they are most
needed.
David Johnston: Indeed; another one. I also welcome the raising of the starting salary for
On the far western border we have Shrivenham, which teachers, because it is important that it keeps pace with
is a place where we have so many of the military families, the starting salary offered particularly by private sector
past and present, who serve our country so well. graduate schemes. It says something important about
939 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 940

[David Johnston] evidence—I gave evidence too—and for the first time
we secured an employers’ levy for training and
the value that we place on teaching as a profession. apprenticeship. It was a big step forward, with cross-party
From my point of view, it should be regarded extremely support. Who would have thought that a Conservative
highly because it is crucial to the future of the country. Government would introduce that? I admire that initiative.
Running through the Queen’s Speech is greater emphasis There are some problems that have to be sorted out,
on skills and technical education. I hope that we can because the levy is not working in quite the way we had
finally achieve parity between vocational education and intended, but it is right in purpose and we just have to
academic education. get it right in the detail. Certain training providers are
Education is important to social mobility, but what being squeezed out, and some of the levy is going to
happens in schools and colleges is not the only thing places we did not quite expect it to go to. We have to
that matters for young people. Improving social mobility refine and improve all policies, and I will certainly work
is not just a job for Government. I hope that our charities, to improve that one, because the work that has been
our local authorities, our universities and employers will done on apprenticeships is inspirational and making a
continue to increase the role that they play in providing great difference to so many people.
opportunity for young people. I have worked with thousands I want to push one particular point today, and that is
of young people who needed that opportunity—they the fact that all of us, of whatever party, know that we
needed the door to be opened, then they would show do not have a bad education system. It goes back to
what they could do. It is absolutely true that talent 1880, when we first introduced compulsory education
is everywhere; opportunity is not. The Queen’s Speech for children aged under 10. All those years later—
goes a considerable way in extending opportunity to 140 years—a lot of children in our country are getting a
places that have lacked it for far too long. pretty good education. I have three daughters, a son
and 12 grandchildren, so I have a pretty good view of
3.36 pm what is going on, from my seven-month-old granddaughter
to my 18-year-old granddaughter and lots in between; I
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The
am pretty well connected with the market. A lot of
maiden speech from the hon. Member for Wantage
people are getting a good education and standards are
(David Johnston) was inspirational. I liked what he
going up, which I applaud. The right hon. Member for
said—it even made me want to come to Wantage and
Harlow (Robert Halfon), who is just leaving the Chamber,
have a look round, rather than just changing trains
is an old friend of mine, and he and I agree absolutely
there. Given what he said about social mobility, there
that our standards have started to improve steadily,
are all kinds of cross-party groups that I immediately
even with respect to the international comparisons.
want him to join so that we can work on those issues
together. I am sure that he will make a great contribution
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the
to the House in the years to come.
hon. Gentleman on his contribution so far. He mentioned
I made my maiden speech quite some time ago. I am the international dimension. One of the great advantages
the longest continuously serving Member on the Opposition of our education system in the United Kingdom of
Benches. I hate the term Father of the House; I am a Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the offer to
senior Member. I dimly remember my maiden speech, overseas students. Does he recognise the contribution
and I want to return to the theme of that speech. We that overseas students make to the education system
had had a bitterly divided general election. We do all across all regions of the United Kingdom, with partnerships,
the usual ritual things in the two parties—the Government and the exchange of cultures and our educational standards?
and the Opposition—and we say pretty cruel things Does he also recognise that many countries across the
about each other, but we have a responsibility. The world wish to send their students to the United Kingdom
Government have a majority and a mandate for five years, to get our education, because it is so good?
so we must all get on with representing our constituents
and working in the best way possible, which they would Mr Sheerman: I absolutely take that point. When I
admire. chaired the Education Committee, we did an inquiry on
I notice when I knock on people’s doors that many of the importance of overseas students, who provide roughly
my constituents are fed up with the knockabout nature 10% of the income of universities. That is a massive
of this place. It is always them against us; “We are contribution. Universities are so important in our
totally right, and you are totally wrong.” I have spent a communities. The University of Huddersfield makes a
lot of my career in Parliament—I served for 10 years as remarkable contribution and is the largest employer in
Chair of the Select Committee on Education—proving my constituency, and those of us who have universities
that by working cross-party we can make a difference. in our towns and cities know just how lucky we are.
Working together we can come up with all sorts of good Thank goodness we have universities; long may they
ideas, innovations and good policies that any party can thrive and survive. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice
adapt and adopt, and make a difference to our constituents. and Howden (Mr Davis), a former Secretary of State
We all want the very best education system in this for Exiting the European Union, mentioned the importance
country. We all want the best policy making possible. of research, and that point was absolutely right.
Many of the things that we have to do over the next Let me return to the broader education system. We
five years will need cross-party participation, and I hope usually judge the success of our education through
that we can secure that. There is a lot of ground for evidence-based policy. How do we drive it? How do we
partnership in education in particular. I have been assess it? Is it evidence-based policy? Is it going in the
involved in a number of cross-party initiatives. I was right direction? Are we using public money in the right
asked to be involved in the new look at apprenticeships. way? On the other hand, we obsessively look at other
There was a commission of inquiry, and we took countries all the time to see if we are as good as them.
941 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 942

The programme for international student assessment, I have a few concerns. This country is a great magnet
and all that, is very important. There are deficiencies in for foreign students in terms of English language schools,
the PISA methodology, but the fact is that those are the of which we have many in Dorset, and colleges and
methods we use. universities. Sometimes the immigration system behaves
Generally, yes, our education system is improving, in a way that is not helpful to our earning billions of
but a substantial proportion of children in this country pounds-worth of money from abroad and bringing
are not getting the education or the opportunities. They people to have a great experience in our colleges and
are in particular constituencies, and we know which universities. Sometimes, those people are a softer target
ones; we have all the bruises, cuts and everything else. than the people the system is trying to crack down on. I
[Interruption.] I am coming to the end of my speech. hope that we not only encourage foreign students to
We know where those underperforming areas are and come to the United Kingdom but make the immigration
we have the methods—with passion and leadership—to system a little more flexible in the way that it treats
sort them out. Our country is divided, and the Children’s them. Students from Saudi Arabia do not need to work
Commissioner said only three months ago that 20% of when they come to the UK but sometimes students
children leave school with no qualifications at all. If from Colombia do. If we limit people in the hours that
that is the divide in our country, we have to understand they can work, we sometimes penalise those from poorer
that underperformance on a cross-party basis. We know states. In a post-Brexit world, we have to encourage
the way to tackle it—and together, let’s do it. people to come to the United Kingdom. They bring in
billions of pounds-worth of money. They create lots of
Several hon. Members rose— jobs in the United Kingdom. It is seen in the accounts
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. as foreign invisible income. It is about education as well
I am relying on people who are not making maiden as other things like insurance and banking. That is what
speeches to show courtesy and compassion to those we really need to encourage.
who are about to do so by taking only six minutes. For In Poole we have people who home educate, and they
those who are not conversant with the system, let me get very nervous every time the Government and civil
explain that if I put on a time limit, it will apply to servants review this. There is a role for home education
everybody henceforward, and it would be better for within our system. I know that Ministers understand
those making maiden speeches if they do not have to the concern when the central civil service wants to have
watch every second on the clock, whereas experienced a good look at what is going on. Sometimes it is for
Members who have had the opportunity to speak many reasons of bullying and sometimes for religious reasons,
times in this Chamber—and will probably, if they behave but home education, in a free society, ought to be very
today, have that opportunity many more times—are much part of the system. We are starting a process of
well able to limit their remarks to six minutes. I am repair through fairer funding for our schools. We need
asking them to do so, starting with Sir Robert Syms. to encourage foreign students because they benefit our
country greatly. We need to have a diverse education
3.45 pm system because that is the best thing for our nation.
Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): May I congratulate
my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (David Johnston) I turn to the other subject of this debate: local
on a very good maiden speech? The measure of this is government. I wish we did not make local government
that when somebody speaks, one thinks, “Actually, I officers bid for so much. They spend hours putting in
would like to hear from him again”, and one does not bids that they cannot possibly win, rather than contributing
necessarily say that about every colleague. I also have to towards governing their local area. We need to be a bit
say that I think this House will miss his predecessor. more flexible on that.
Wantage is in good hands, and I look forward to The real challenge is home ownership. We need to
hearing from my hon. Friend in future. provide security for those who rent, but we must also
The past two and a half years have been some of the reverse the reduction in home ownership that has occurred
most painful times in politics that I can remember. I am over the past 10 to 15 years. The Government need to be
pleased that the British people were given the chance to turbocharged in this area. Many young people want to
break the deadlock and elect a Government with a buy, and we have to do everything in our power to assist
majority. For those of us who are back, the atmosphere them, so that they can get on the home ownership
is totally different. The fact that the Government can ladder, which makes such a difference. Having equity in
get on and deliver Brexit is a wonderful thing and good a home can lead people to start a business, and it
for democracy. changes their whole view of life. If Conservative government
To turn to the debate, one of the things that has is about anything, it is trying to help people to buy their
always concerned me in Poole is how badly some of our own home and have a full stake in society.
schools have been funded over the decades. It is very I welcome the Queen’s Speech, which has many exciting
difficult to argue that a child in Poole should be given things in it, and I think that we are going to have a good
less of an opportunity than someone else in the country. four years of government in which we make progress.
The Government have had, on two or three occasions, With those few words, I look forward to hearing more
an opportunity to improve funding a little. I am glad that maiden speeches.
the Secretary of State has taken on board representations
from f40 and others and we are going to make further Several hon. Members rose—
progress over the next few years. However, I take on
board points made earlier that funding is not all. Discipline,
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I
uniforms and leadership play a big role in the classroom.
am delighted to call Rachel Hopkins to make her
I am pleased to see that standards are improving and I
maiden speech.
hope we continue that as a drive for the future.
943 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 944

3.50 pm my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North but serves
young people across Luton South too. I am proud to be
Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): I thank you, a governor of Luton Sixth Form College and I will
Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to make my continue to be a champion for sixth-form colleges in
maiden speech during this part of the debate on the Queen’s this place.
Speech, because like many Members on both sides of
the House, local government is close to my heart, having My predecessor talked about the importance of access
served as a local councillor in Luton for over eight years. to good-quality comprehensive education for our young
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South people being integral to social mobility, but I would go
East (Mr Betts), I too will champion local government a bit further and say that it is actually vital to tackle
in this Parliament. social injustice. In Luton, we are acutely aware of how
social injustice can have a detrimental impact on people’s
As a born and bred Lutonian, it is a real privilege to
lives. Last year was the centenary of when the people of
have been elected as the Member for Luton South,
Luton burned down Luton’s town hall—it is in my
where I grew up and where I live today. I thank the
constituency. That was a protest by ordinary people
people of Luton South for giving me this opportunity,
who were totally excluded from the peace day banquet
and I will serve all our diverse communities from across
being held by the rich bigwigs in the town hall. The cost
the constituency to the best of my ability, from Dallow
was beyond their means, as many had returned from
to Wigmore, from Caddington to Biscot—the area where
serving their country in the war to face unemployment,
I grew up and where my parents still live.
and when they were refused permission to hold their
Some have commented that I followed my father’s own simple celebration in Wardown park, their protest
footsteps to this place, and while that is a notable got a bit out of hand. One hundred years later, last year,
achievement, it is important to explain that the women we commemorated this in a more positive way, through
in my family were equally strong role models, with both an excellent programme of arts and cultural events
my grandmother and my mum being elected as local exploring democracy and people power, devised and
councillors and serving their communities first. While performed by, with and for the people of Luton. Arts
those were the women who showed me the way, Luton and culture changes lives and improves wellbeing, and I
as a place is now leading the way for other girls and will continue to champion access to arts and culture
women, with not only two female Members of Parliament for all.
—my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North
Luton South is very well connected, and I say that in
(Sarah Owen) was also elected—but the leader and
transport terms and not in terms of who someone
deputy leader of Luton Council being women too. And
might have met at boarding school. It has an international
of course, I must get on record the excellent achievement
airport, the M1 motorway and of course the railway
by my party in returning a majority of women to
line that runs north to the midlands and Yorkshire as
Parliament this time.
well as south to London and the south coast. I have
Saying that, women being in demand and leading the travelled by train from Luton station all my life, including
way in Luton is not completely new. Back in the late commuting for work for over 20 years, but, sadly, it has
19th to early 20th century, Luton was the centre of the not changed that much. The repeated licks of paint
straw hat trade in England, with many hat factories simply do not cover up that it is out of date and run
being based in Luton South. It was the nimble-fingered down. We need a 21st-century station, accessible for all,
expert women straw plaiters who were sought after to as the gateway to our town in the 21st century, and I will
make the famous straw boaters. Indeed, it is the hat continue the campaign, together with my Luton Council
trade and the straw boaters made in Luton that resulted comrades, to get one.
in Luton Town football club being known as the Hatters. On a final note, many have said that Luton is much
I am proud that my constituency is home to our like a working-class town from the north but down
football club, which plays an important community role south. Others have said that with its hyper-diverse
in our town through its community trust. While I communities, areas of deprivation and complex needs,
experienced the somewhat quaint charm of Kenilworth it is like many London boroughs. But to me, my friends
Road watching Luton Town v. Fulham on Boxing day, I and all the wonderful constituents of Luton South, it is
really look forward to watching my first match in the quite simply home.
new stadium at Power Court. I must add that, despite
the Government’s cuts to local authority funding since
3.57 pm
2010 having a huge impact on local services, and particularly
planning departments, the diligent and professional Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con):
work of Luton Council planning officers ensured that Madam Deputy Speaker, I am delighted to see you in
the proposals for the new stadium at Power Court and your place. I am also delighted to be able to participate
development at Newlands Park were approved. in the Queen’s Speech debate today and strongly support
This gives me an opportunity to reflect on my predecessor, the measures proposed in it.
Gavin Shuker. While decisions that he made ultimately I congratulate the hon. Member for Luton South
afforded me the opportunity to serve, he too was a born (Rachel Hopkins) on a passionate and confident speech.
and bred Lutonian. Gavin also spoke up to support the I congratulate her on the passion for her town that she
football club’s plans to build a new stadium, and we brought to her speech. We knew her father well, and he
would both agree that it will be vitally important to the was a regular participant in the Chamber, but it is nice
regeneration of our town. I looked back at his maiden that she praised her mother too, as an inspiration,
speech, and he talked about being educated in Luton which I think is very good. I look forward to listening to
schools, as was I. We both studied at Luton Sixth Form her further in other debates, and I congratulate her on
College, which may be situated in the constituency of what was an excellent maiden speech.
945 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 946

I was rather disappointed with the Front-Bench speeches I want briefly to highlight the fact that every child
from the Labour party and the SNP. They were not deserves the best start in life regardless of their background
constructive, they did not come up with any policies or where they live. Access to good schools is essential to
and they did not acknowledge some of the things this build the foundations for success in future life. I am
Government have really achieved in the last nearly concerned about the underachievement of many working-
10 years. There is the increase in standards across class boys; this topic has not received enough attention
England, which has been considerable, and the increase in the past. This particular demographic is falling ever
in funding per pupil, with the Government making sure further behind and it shows no sign of catching up with
that all schools get a fair allocation of funds. its peers. The difference in attainment between richer
I think that too much negativity is not good. I was pupils and their disadvantaged classmates has closed
going to say to the hon. Member for Huddersfield since 2011, but when results are broken down by ethnicity,
(Mr Sheerman), who has just disappeared, that he was it appears that the improved results among poorer
rather constructive and moderate—I am sorry he is not pupils are largely down to the achievement of non-white
here to hear me say that—on this occasion. children; this is exacerbated when gender is taken into
account.
There are three areas that I want to highlight: first,
working class boys; secondly, social mobility; and, thirdly, I welcome the fact that girls are achieving so much
colleges. I agree totally with the former Chair of the more now. In my constituency, we have a very good
Education Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member secondary school, Townley Grammar, which is excellent
for Harlow (Robert Halfon), who highlighted how and is offering girls tremendous opportunities, but the
important colleges are in our education provision, because boys—the working-class heroes we should have in the
they have been rather a Cinderella service compared future—are not achieving and the Government must
with secondary schools, primary schools and universities. look into that. I welcome my right hon. Friend the
What we need is for them to be the engine for the Secretary of State’s positive approach to education, I
training and development of people so that we meet the welcome his speech today, and I welcome the fact that
skill shortages we have in our society; they are desperately he understands the need for colleges to have more
needed. money and for working-class white boys in particular to
be helped to make sure that they can fulfil their potential.
However, I want first to highlight the fact that during If we do not do that, it will be a tragedy—a tragedy for
the general election, on the doorsteps across the country them, for their families and for society and our communities.
and the doorsteps in Bexleyheath and Crayford, the Even more importantly, we owe it to them to make sure
electorate were determined to praise what the Government that they have the same opportunities as the rest of the
have done, which is considerable, but to highlight the country and other cohorts within the age group.
other things that they want done as well. Of course,
Brexit was a top priority. My area voted heavily to leave This Government have done well in increasing funding
the EU, and my constituents support our Prime Minister, for education, and have done well in setting standards
as I do, and his approach and determination to get in Ofsted and in the academies programme that my
Brexit done. They know the Prime Minister will deliver. right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael
Gove) introduced in 2010 to 2012; that is a real achievement,
The Queen’s Speech set out an ambitious international of which we can all be proud, but we need to address
agenda, focusing on building a new partnership with other areas for the future, particularly the colleges,
the EU, forging new trading relationships, protecting working-class lads and social mobility. Our society requires
our national security and playing an active role in the the opportunity for people to move up the social scale;
international community. However, now that we are we have not had as much success in that as I would like.
finally leaving the EU it is vital that we implement the
However, I am sure that we will be moving forward
people’s priorities on the NHS, crime, housing, education,
with the programmes in the Queen’s Speech and the
the environment, immigration, housing and so forth;
agenda on education and opportunity. I believe strongly
these are real things that the people want dealt with and
in the Queen’s Speech and that the Government are on
this Government will do it.
the right track, and they will have a lot of support not
As a former teacher and lecturer, I know about the only in Bexleyheath and Crayford but across the country.
importance of good schools, good teachers and educational
opportunities, and we want that for all our young 4.4 pm
people all across the country.
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): It was not so
long ago that I gave my maiden speech, and my hon.
Jim Shannon: As the right hon. Gentleman is looking Friend the Member for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins)
forward to the future, does he welcome the starting made an excellent maiden speech today. On that note I
again of the Northern Ireland Assembly and accountability would also like to start by thanking the people of
being back in the process there? That has enabled new Lewisham East for giving me the privilege of representing
schools to be announced today, two of them in my them once again in this place.
constituency, which is again an example—
The Queen’s Speech contained many promises for
education, policing and our NHS. They all sounded fine
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. until we looked further. The Government talk about
That is a long intervention; did nobody listen to what investment in our public services, but who was it who
was said about the maiden speeches? targeted them with devastating funding cuts? Who was
it who brought our NHS to the point where a child with
Sir David Evennett: I am delighted that the Assembly pneumonia had to lay on the cold floor of an A&E
is back in operation, because that is good news for department? Who was it who made severe cuts to our
Northern Ireland and for the whole United Kingdom. police service and have since decided to do a U-turn and
947 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 948

[Janet Daby] Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am

delighted to call, to make his maiden speech, Tom Hunt.
reinvest in our police service? And who put a huge strain
on our education and brought many schools to their 4.8 pm
knees? It was this Government. Lewisham Council has Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): Thank you very much,
faced one of the most severe cuts in its funding, with Madam Deputy Speaker. It is an immense privilege to
over 60% of its budget slashed. I see the painful results stand before you for the first time as the Member of
when I hold my surgeries and open my emails, and see Parliament for Ipswich. I would like to start by thanking
pleas from families asking for help with all sorts of issues. my immediate predecessor, Sandy Martin, for the service
The main focus of my speech this afternoon is special he has provided the people of Ipswich over many decades,
educational needs. Before the election, I took on the first as a local councillor and most recently in this place
case of a young boy who needed an education, health as the town’s Member of Parliament. It is no secret that
and care plan plan to support his special educational Sandy and I disagree on many issues, but no one can
needs. A child full of life and aspirations was facing doubt the care he has for Ipswich. I note that one of
bullying because he was not receiving the support he Sandy’s final interventions in this place was to lead an
required to progress. The family ultimately took their Adjournment debate on provision for those with special
case to a tribunal, where their appeal was successful. educational needs in Suffolk. This issue is very close to
Last year, a staggering 89% of such cases that went to a my heart, as I will come on to later in my speech, but I
tribunal hearing had a successful outcome for the assure the House that Ipswich has not lost a strong
appellant—an astounding 261% increase since 2011. voice on this issue, but gained another.
There are also many more families around the country Looking back over the years, Ipswich has elected a
who have been unable to take their cases to tribunal. number of towering figures to represent it. Having
This is no fault of their own, but is instead due to a lack knocked on tens of thousands of doors across the town,
of resources to fight a system that is clearly working I have been fortunate enough to hear many stories
against them. about the public service that they carried out. Two Labour
As with most of the problems we face with this representatives spring to mind: Jamie Cann and Kenneth
Government, it all comes back to funding. Local Weetch. Only recently I found out that Jamie Cann used
government is severely underfunded. At the same time, to have a favourite phrase, “to put a tickle on them”, to
youth violence is persistent. We have had unprecedented describe the incessant way in which he would hound
cuts to youth services and to the youth offending service. officials for responses to inquiries from his constituents.
With a lack of assessments in prisons, many young More recently, Ipswich was represented by the
people face having their special educational needs going Conservative, Ben Gummer. In the years that he was
unnoticed. The funding currently available for special an MP, he made a major impact in our town and in this
educational needs is simply inadequate. The Government place. It was touching to hear on my door-knocking
are not providing the money to meet this education and travels of all the different stories and ways in which he
health demand. Meanwhile, local authorities like Lewisham had personally helped the people he represented. He
have a high percentage of children with autism. They was a dedicated public servant and I have no doubt that
need increased funding, instead of expecting to face a he will return to public life in the future. He was
further funding shortfall. ambitious for our town and what it could achieve and
Lewisham has, on average, experienced a cut of £257 per his contribution will never be forgotten.
pupil. Conisborough College in my constituency has All MPs for Ipswich are lucky to be part of the story
lost as much as £386 per pupil. The charity IPSEA— of the oldest continually existing English town in the
Independent Parental Special Education Advice—highlights country. I use the term “English town”deliberately because
that the funding available is often not directed to pupils there are those in Colchester who insist that their East
on the basis of need, given the disproportionate numbers Anglian settlement predates our town. Fine place though
of pupils with special educational needs and disabilities Colchester is, that town was of course established by the
who end up excluded from school or otherwise out of Romans and its history has not been continuous because
education. The Institute for Fiscal Studies states that of its sacking by a red-haired queen from the fens.
the Government’s education funding will only be enough Since Roman times, the area around Ipswich formed
to keep spending per pupil the same as it is now— an important trading route inland to rural towns and
underfunded. It is in the midst of a cash crisis, making settlements via the Rivers Orwell and Gipping, and
it increasingly challenging to provide children with the international trade continues to be at the heart of the
support they need. Ipswich economy. Approximately 5,000 of my constituents
It is important that the Government allocate the are employed at the port of Felixstowe, Britain’s busiest
funding needed to enable local authorities and schools sea container port. Around 48% of our country’s
to meet their statutory obligations and to reduce the containerised trade passes through the port of Felixstowe.
bureaucratic nature of the system. In the midst of a We also have the port of Ipswich, which employs around
mental health crisis in young adults, we must do more 1,000 of my constituents and is the No. 1 grain exporter
to address the increasing lack of support in further in the country. It is important that as part of the Brexit
education colleges. We need to create a fair system that negotiations, links are maintained with our European
provides the necessary support to children and young neighbours. However, it is also vital that as we finally
people with special educational needs. Children and regain the ability to control our international trade
young people in this country and in my constituency policy, we set our sights high and our horizons broad as
have ambitions. It is our responsibility to ensure that no we look to maximise the trading potential of our great
one is unfairly held back. country. I want Ipswich to be at the heart of this and I
am excited by the possibility of Ipswich becoming a
Several hon. Members rose— free port.
949 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 950

I have mentioned Colchester and the animosity around Closely related to the sense of being left behind is
the history, but when it comes to football we look north looking at opportunities for our young people and
to our East Anglian neighbours in Norwich. Shortly after working to ensure that all of them, regardless of the
my selection as a candidate, I was warned that being a circumstances they were born into and of any special
Norwich City fan would cost me precisely 2,000 votes. educational needs they have, are given every opportunity
I made it clear that that was not the case: I am in fact a through our education system to achieve their full potential.
lifelong supporter of the Toon Army, and as a result I We must not stop until we have an education system
share an enduring admiration for Ipswich Town idol, that leaves no child behind. We need an inspection
Sir Bobby Robson, one of the greatest figures to have regime that is fully behind this principle and schools
ever graced the beautiful game. However, knowing that and teachers who have the resources, freedoms and
the cover-up is always worse than the crime, I did have flexibility as far as possible to tailor education around
to acknowledge from the outset one thing that had the specific needs of the child.
previously been buried away. I confessed that as a As I said before, this issue could not be closer to my
seven-year-old I was led astray by my father who was heart. When I was 12 years old, I was told I had a
trying to flog a Škoda Felicia in a Norwich City match reading and a writing age of an eight-year-old and that
day programme. To catch readers’ attention, a yellow I risked having to leave my school. I was diagnosed with
and green wig was thrust on my head as part of the both dyslexia and dyspraxia. I was lucky, as I had great
accompanying photo. Given my young age at the time, I support around me, including a couple of key individuals
hope that Ipswich Town fans will forgive me for that at school who saw something in me and helped me to
infraction and that they can rest assured that I will be turn things around. The sad reality is that for too
staunchly behind the Blue Army in any future East many young people with special educational needs this
Anglian derby. The name Ipswich Town FC means that is not the case, through no fault of their own. As well as
Ipswich is known by millions of football fans around fighting for Ipswich, if there is one thing I can do in
the world, and with FA cup and UEFA cup victories public life, it is dedicating myself to helping these children
under Sir Bobby in 1978 and 1981 it has a far more to ensure that they have every opportunity to achieve
stellar trophy cabinet than Newcastle United. their full potential and that their talents are not lost to
The people of Ipswich, such as those working in the society, for to be unconventional is to be brilliant.
ports, are by and large humble, unpretentious, welcoming There are three things that Members should know
and honest. They can also be straight-speaking and about me. First, I will always put my constituents first
direct. There is a very strong sense of local identity and and be ambitious for the town. Ipswich is a fine town
they care deeply about their town. However, at the same and its people deserve a fighter and a champion. Secondly,
time, many do feel it has been left behind and is some I will do everything I can to break down the barriers
way off being the place it could be and achieving its true that prevent those with special educational needs from
potential. achieving their full potential. Finally, I will always love
As a town, we are ethnically diverse, and it is my view my country. I remember sitting on my gran’s lap as a
that Ipswich benefits from this diversity. We have a six-year-old and asking her what she remembered about
sizeable Bangladeshi community who enrich our town the second world war. She was over 80 at the time and I
no end, including a number of small business owners. knew she had worked as a teacher in Dover before being
They are entrepreneurial and hard-working and our moved to north Devon when the Battle of Britain
town would be far poorer without them. We have a commenced. I remember her saying, “Your granddad
brilliant Indian community whose contribution is vast, was late for dinner”. I asked why and she said, “He was
particularly within our NHS, with many working as down on the docks dishing out soup to the men coming
doctors, nurses and pharmacists, supporting some of over from France in the funny little boats.” I am of
the most vulnerable within our community. We all need course referring to Dunkirk.
to work together to begin to believe that the town’s best I also remember what she went on to say, all of a
days are in front of us, not behind us. sudden becoming quite serious: “Tom, you must always
remember that to be British comes with special
I welcome the fact that so many northern communities responsibilities, because of course being British means
have new Conservative MPs representing them in this you’re part of the greatest country on earth.” This is
place, often for the first time. We hear understandably something I took on board that day and is something I
how many within these communities feel that their have always believed and still believe to this day. From
areas have been left behind, but many in the town I time to time, events happen that reinforce this view and
represent feel exactly the same, and their concerns should it is why, at this moment in our island’s story, I look
not be forgotten in the stampede rightly to invest in the forward with confidence at our post-Brexit future. People
north. It is hardly like Ipswich and East Anglia have can bet against us all they want. More often than not,
been basking in it. they will be proven wrong.
We need fairer funding for our schools; under
Governments of both colours we have not got the 4.19 pm
investment we need in our transport infrastructure; we Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): It is a pleasure
have one of the worst-funded police authorities in the to follow the hon. Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt),
country; we have had big problems with crime and whom I congratulate on a very gracious and eloquent
antisocial behaviour; and knife crime and county lines maiden speech. It is also a pleasure to see you returned to
have destroyed the lives of many young people within your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate you
my constituency. We must be calculating and ruthless in on your elevation to Chairman of Ways and Means.
going after the gangs who sponsor this evil, and we need In the limited time available, I want to speak about
tougher sentencing to serve as a deterrent. Justice must some of the challenges facing us in St Helens and the
be done and be seen to be done. wider coalfield communities in the north of England,
951 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 952

[Conor McGinn] There are opportunities, and there are reasons to be

optimistic. The pit at Parkside, the former colliery site
but I also want to speak about what constitutes those in my constituency, was the last in east Lancashire to
communities and why we have reasons to be optimistic. close. For nearly 30 years we have been waiting for plans
To outline the state of play in St Helens is to paint an to develop it, and I am glad to say that those are now
unattractive and difficult picture: our local authority is advancing, alongside the infrastructure that we need to
losing £90 million a year in funding, and with a low bring jobs and growth back to St Helens. The jobs that
business rates base we cannot even begin to mitigate we bring will be not the jobs of the past but the jobs of
that and have had to freeze spending on all but essential today and tomorrow, and a new green industrial deal
services; our schools have lost £5.3 million in the last and strategy will be an important part of that. St Helens
year, which is the equivalent of £211 per pupil; early is, of course, famous for its glass industry. We led the
years provision has suffered as well; 4,000 households in world in the past, and we can lead the world again.
my constituency are on universal credit; and we had the Glass Futures has a hugely impressive programme, and
highest rate of suicide in the country. I am pleased to is planning to base a £40 million research facility in
say we have taken steps to address that, as a result of St Helens.
which it is no longer the highest, but our rates of
depression are also higher than the national average. We I am delighted that Ministers are present to hear me
have seen knife crime increase, we have lost 1,700 police say that we have been invited to apply for funding from
officers on Merseyside, and youth provision has declined the town deals fund, and I will be attending a board
as well. This week the NHS announced that it would meeting along with stakeholders representing the whole
erect temporary structures outside Whiston Hospital community. The bid has invigorated a sense of civic
because of a lack of space caused by the demand placed duty and political leadership in St Helens. I hope that it
on its services. Record numbers attended our A&E will be as competitive as we believe it will be, and that
department last week, which is no wonder given that in the Government will look on it favourably.
St Helens people can wait up to 28 days for a GP
I do not come from St Helens, or from Newton-le-
appointment.
Willows. That may come as a shock to those who have
That is the reality of 10 years of Conservative been listening to my very thickly disguised Lancashire
government. However, I have always put St Helens and accent. [Laughter.] However, I love living in the area,
the people who live there first, and I think it fair to say and I am very proud to represent it. My family are part
that I have a very constructive and good relationship of the community and my children go to school there,
with the Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and so I have a personal investment in building a better
Local Growth, the right hon. Member for Rossendale future for them and, indeed, for every family in St Helens.
and Darwen (Jake Berry), and with the Secretary of I should be really grateful if the Government helped me
State. When it is in the interests of my constituents and to do that.
the community in which I live and which I represent, I
want to work collaboratively with the Members—from Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am
whichever side of the House—who I believe have the very pleased to call Ben Everitt to make his maiden
best interests of those communities at heart. speech.
Ours is a very proud and resilient community. The
towns of St Helens and Newton-le-Willows are anchored 4.24 pm
and rooted in tradition, but they are changing as well, in
terms of sport, arts, culture and all the other things that Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): Thank
make a community, such as families and the role of you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a genuine
faith organisations, which are very strong in St Helens. honour to rise to give my first speech and to speak for
The churches provide care for the elderly, run food the first time representing my 91,555 electors. Rising for
banks and operate parent and toddler groups. I hope the first time gives me the opportunity to congratulate
that the leadership debate in my own party, but also the you and welcome you to your Chair. It also gives me the
implementation of the programme for government in opportunity to follow in the tradition of paying tribute
the Queen’s Speech, will give due consideration to the to my predecessor. My predecessor was Mark Lancaster
role of faith organisations in communities, which has MP, who was well respected across the House. He
too often been overlooked and not properly valued. We entered Parliament in 2005 as the MP for Milton Keynes
do not have to “do God” to “get” faith, and to understand North East. Throughout that time, he was a colonel in
the importance of the part that those organisations play the Territorial Army, and he still is today. He saw action
in our communities. in Kosovo, Bosnia and Afghanistan.
In the last Parliament, I chaired the all-party Mark also had a distinguished ministerial career. As
parliamentary group for the coalfield communities. I a Defence Minister, he rolled out the armed forces
was delighted that before the election we were able to covenant and was instrumental in the modernising defence
publish 10 priorities for the former coalfields, alongside review. In our constituency, his work was very much
the Coalfields Regeneration Trust and the Industrial appreciated, particularly his work on categorising the
Communities Alliance. I think that all Members will drug khat as a category C narcotic. His work was
have received copies this week. I urge the Secretary of welcomed and he is remembered fondly by our communities
State and the Minister for the Northern Powerhouse to in the constituency. I asked around for amusing—and
look carefully at what is not a nostalgic hark back to shareable—anecdotes about Mark and I received a lot
what those communities had and unjustifiably lost—they of responses, none of which hit both of those categories.
still feel deep and justified pain about that—but something Suffice it to say that he was an excellent MP and an
that looks to the future, and considers what those excellent Minister, and that he remains an officer and
communities need to thrive again. a gentleman.
953 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 954

My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice Newport Pagnell should remain a market town and not
and Howden (Mr Davis), who is no longer in the Chamber, become a suburb of a wider urban metropolis. It is
mentioned the golden triangle of growth and opportunity important to retain that character.
that comes up from London to Oxford and Cambridge. That brings me to the third segment of the Milton
Of course, the middle bit of the north side of that Keynes North constituency that I mentioned: the frontier.
triangle is Milton Keynes, which I represent along with This is the bit of Milton Keynes that is so new that we
my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South are still building it. It is a wonderful place. It is a great
(Iain Stewart). Milton Keynes is a wonderful place. Its place to live, work, bring up a family, and grow a
economy is worth £12 billion a year to the Exchequer, business, but we are suffering from reckless over-expansion.
and it is one of the most productive places outside Thousands of houses are being bolted on to the side of
London. One third of the employees work in knowledge- Milton Keynes. The city, of course, is famous for its
intensive industries, and it is one of the fastest growing grid system and its roundabouts, but the roads are
places not only in the UK but in Europe. For that clogging up due to those thousands of new houses on
reason, Milton Keynes will play a significant and important the edge of Milton Keynes. We need our growth to be
role in the UK’s post-Brexit industrial strategy and in sustainable, appropriate, affordable and proportionate,
our place in the world. and I will strongly champion that, not only for Milton
The maiden speech made by my hon. Friend the Keynes but for many other places.
Member for Wantage (David Johnston) was a tour de
Of course, like any other town, Milton Keynes has issues
force. In fact it was a tour de Didcot. I am not going to
such as knife crime. It is devastating and heartbreaking
give the House a tour of Milton Keynes, because there
when a young life is extinguished by a blade, and
is plenty to do, but if Members were to take a tour of
we need to sort this situation. The extra 20,000 police
Milton Keynes, it would probably take them about
officers will definitely make a difference, and 183 of them
10 minutes by car. As my wife says, everything is 10 minutes
are already in recruitment for our local force. They will
away in Milton Keynes. It is a very functional city.
be complemented by a further 69 uniformed police
Mine is a constituency of three parts. There is the city officers and 140 extra back-office staff to do intelligence
itself—home of the concrete cows, of course—then gathering, and that really is the key. We need to re-task
there is the rural bit, at the northern end of my constituency. our police to get tougher on the postcode gangs and to
As a lad, my first job was sweeping yards on farms and break up the scourge on society that is knife crime.
driving tractors in fields whose produce was destined to We also have an issue with homelessness, and my first
be exported through the ports mentioned by my hon. constituency meeting as the MP for Milton Keynes
Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) as part of North was with the Milton Keynes Homelessness
Britain’s contribution to the world. That part of the Partnership. It does fantastic work and I am sure that it,
constituency is incredibly important to me. The third like me, welcomes this week’s announcement of an
bit is what I call the frontier of Milton Keynes, and I extra £700,000 from the Government for Milton Keynes
will get to that in a second. to support our fight against homelessness. Interestingly,
The city of Milton Keynes is the No. 1 destination for my meeting with the partnership was set up by a man
business and finance investment outside of London. It called Festus Akinbusoye. Festus is a board member of
is a hub for finance, tech, innovation and industry, as the YMCA. He is also a self-made man and an adviser
evidenced by the recent opening of Santander’s tech to me and other MPs on issues such as community
innovation hub, which is worth 6,000 jobs in the safety and knife crime. Festus was previously a resident
constituency. of the YMCA in Milton Keynes. Nearly two decades
There is much more to Milton Keynes than business ago, when he had nothing but a roof over his head, the
and finance, however. People can shop, ski, dine and YMCA allowed him to get his life together and make a
drink. In Milton Keynes, our groceries are delivered by success of himself. He is now a self-made man, he is an
robots, and our cycleways are shared with driverless car adviser to MPs, and I am very proud to say that he is
pods. We are a city that is going places. Our city boasts also chairman of the Milton Keynes Conservative
more waterways than Venice and green spaces that are federation.
10 times the size of Hyde Park and, of course, it is home Milton Keynes, like the Conservative party, is a place
to the Concrete Cow Brewery—I can recommend the of opportunity. These opportunities come from our
MK IPA. companies such as Aston Martin, and William Cowley,
The rural north of the constituency is geographically which makes the vellum upon which the laws we make
the most substantial part of the constituency. It features in this place are inscribed. Then there are the new
well-run, well-managed, environmentally sustainable farms technology companies like Starship Technologies, which
that not only contribute to our nation’s food supply, but makes those robots that deliver groceries. There are plenty
husband the countryside. It has wonderful villages—vibrant, of catapult companies working in artificial intelligence
lively communities—and two beautiful market towns. and driverless cars, and, of course, Milton Keynes is
The market town of Olney is slightly older than Milton home to the most electric car charging points of any
Keynes—only a thousand years or so—and the market UK town or city.
town of Newport Pagnell, where I spent a considerable We have 14 outstanding primary schools in the
amount of time talking to people during the election constituency and many wonderful secondary schools, at
campaign, is beautiful in a way that only those of us which it was a pleasure to speak during the campaign.
born in market towns can describe. There is something With the schools, with the people, with the entrepreneurial
special about market towns, but it is difficult to convey. spirit and with the right kind of investment in sustainable,
I spent a lot of time talking to people in Newport affordable, appropriate growth, the second part of
Pagnell and, although I did not agree with everybody Milton Keynes’s first century can be even better than
on matters of policy and politics, we all agreed that the first.
955 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 956

4.36 pm that the same job title can cost and mean something so
different in different places. It leads to people being
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I
trapped in hospital beds because necessary home support
congratulate the hon. Member for Milton Keynes North
is unavailable or woefully inadequate.
(Ben Everitt) on a very good and well balanced maiden
speech. I liked Mark Lancaster and, from what we have New laws to make schools, police, local authorities
heard today, we have a worthy successor in the hon. and health groups work together to prevent crime sound
Gentleman. remarkably like many of the early measures of the Blair
I acknowledge the achievement of the Secretary of Government to me. Those had success because they
State for Northern Ireland in getting the Assembly back were backed up by extra resources and I simply say that
up and running. We should support the Government there is no point in commanding underfunded agencies
when they do the right thing. to take on more responsibilities. If the police make an
arrest as part of an operation in Birmingham, they cancel
I also acknowledge the election result. Opposition the operation while the offenders are carted across town
Members need to recognise the message when the electorate to the only police station with cells. Schools are already
produce a majority on that scale. We cannot just condemn providing a range of welfare services for children and
policies and ideas because someone else suggests them; families, which used to be a local authority responsibility,
it is about analysing what is being done, exposing the but the schools are not being funded for doing that. In
downsides and offering credible alternatives. addition, as we all know, local authorities and clinical
I was first elected in 1997, so I understand the euphoria commissioning groups are devoted to rationing services
of Conservative Members, but government is tough and to save money. Joint working needs proper resources
it gets tougher. Westminster is not just about party or and the proper measurement of anticipated outcomes.
the Chamber. There are lots of all-party parliamentary I can detect that, much as you would love to hear
groups in this place, and they require people to work more and more from me, Madam Deputy Speaker, you
together. It is not all tribal, and sometimes those all-party are indicating, in your new elevated position, that I
groups can be just as influential as anything we hear should perhaps withdraw now.
from the Dispatch Box.
I gently say to the Secretary of State for Education, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am
who is not in his place, that government also requires grateful to the hon. Gentleman because his courtesy is
some humility. I welcome any promise to raise spending not only to the Chair and the Chamber, but, in particular,
on education, but I remind Ministers that many schools to Members who are about to make their maiden speeches.
in Birmingham are already facing deficit budgets. Raising I am delighted to call James Daly to make his maiden
pupil spending is welcome but, unless real adjustments speech.
are made to recognise disadvantage, per capita increases
may only serve to cement that disadvantage. 4.43 pm
I welcome the Secretary of State’s admission of the James Daly (Bury North) (Con): Thank you very
problems faced by pupils with special educational needs much, Madam Deputy Speaker. My seat of Bury North
and disabilities, such as problems with access to schools is made up of the townships of Ramsbottom, Bury and
and transport, shortages of teaching assistants and a Tottington, and we are blessed with brilliant teachers,
lack of speech and language therapy. We are failing teaching assistants and other professionals who support
these children. Education, health and care plans are all our children through their educational journeys. But
being delayed to save money, and in most places the we must do everything to ensure that children from the
concept of the local offer is meaningless. We need to most disadvantaged backgrounds and those with special
review this aspect of the Children and Families Act 2014. educational needs have the best chance to thrive and
We need to know that the high needs funding block will succeed throughout their lives.
be ring-fenced and that all the money will go to youngsters
In my maiden speech, I will highlight my own experiences
with special needs. We need to know that local authorities
of outstanding educational practice by nurseries, schools
and health bodies will have the money to reinforce the
and further education providers in my constituency. It
aspects of the Act for which they are responsible.
has been an honour to serve for the past six years as
I hope that the new student visa will make it easier for chair of governors at Bury North’s only state nursery
people to come here to study, but PhD students do not school, Hoyle Nursery School. We are situated in one of
find it particularly easy to stay after they complete their the most deprived wards in the borough of Bury, and
doctorates. They are often young and at a stage where most pupils come from deprived and disadvantaged
they do not earn much money. Unless we incentivise backgrounds. They have limited life experience and on
them to stay and perhaps make a life here, we will be entry to the school most children are significantly below
risking the very talent and expertise we need. I hope the the expected developmental level for their age group.
Government will say more about how the proposals for However, in the past four years, we have had two
post-study work opportunities will operate alongside outstanding ratings from Ofsted, which is a tribute to
the points system. the leadership of Val Kay—it is an honour to mention
On social care, I hope the Government move quickly, her name in this place; sadly, she passed away earlier
as too many people are being denied proper help and this year—and the current headteacher, Rachel. I will
cannot afford the costs of care. Any plans that involve quote from the most recent inspection report:
local authorities need to spell out proper funding “Children get off to a flying start at this outstanding
arrangements and obligations. We require good common school. Staff…want the very best for each of the children. They
standards applied to commissioners and delivery bodies. believe that there is no limit to what children are capable of
Home care and home support should mean the same in achieving.”
Birmingham, Bournemouth or Burnley. It is ridiculous What better statement on education could one have?
957 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 958

A bespoke curriculum is put in place to ensure pupils fans of clubs, who are the lifeblood of their existence.
are on track and ready for the next stage of their Thousands of people in my constituency continue to
learning. We have a specialist special educational needs see Bury football club and its Gigg Lane home as
unit and fully inclusive educational provision to ensure central to our town’s identity. The club’s current predicament
there are no barriers to progress, no matter what issues has impacted on local businesses and the wider economy,
the children have. I was going to say that no matter what but more than that it has increased social isolation for
their background, children make good progress at Hoyle those I have met and spoken to who have long supported
Nursery School, but they do not; they make amazing their hometown club—some for 70 years—and now no
progress, including the much-cherished pupils with special longer see the friends they have made over a lifetime.
educational needs. I pay tribute to everyone in Bury and elsewhere who
I am also a governor at Springside Primary School, is fighting to ensure that football returns to Gigg Lane,
which is another fantastic school in my constituency. and I hope all Members in this House support the
Like many schools, Springside has had its issues, but campaign. I will work together with others to ensure
following our recent Ofsted inspection we have moved that the interests of football fans are properly defended
from “requires improvement”to “good”. It is a good school, by the football authorities and that football fans are not
delivering good education to children in my area. That penalised due to the unscrupulous actions of owners.
has been achieved by concentrating on an inclusive Let me quote my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone
curriculum, supporting the developmental goals of all and Hythe (Damian Collins), in his role as Chairman of
children and providing a bespoke curriculum for SEN the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee. Talking
pupils to thrive and succeed. I am proud to be associated about Bury football club, he said:
with the school. “From the evidence we have received, we believe that the EFL’s
I will also highlight Bury College in my constituency. failure to enforce its own rules and regulations both prior to and
following”
Last Friday, together with the Minister for the Northern
Powerhouse and Local Growth, my right hon. Friend the current chairman’s
the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry), “takeover of the club contributed to the problems that ultimately
and my hon. Friend the Member for Bury South (Christian led to Bury’s expulsion.”
Wakeford), I went to the college to support the proposed What an indictment that is.
new £6.74 million health, innovation, science, maths, Like all other Members, many other issues impact on
engineering and technology centre. The proposal is my constituency. Due to the time, I shall comment on
supported by £2.25 million from the Government growth only three: first, I will continue to campaign to protect
deal fund and will provide a high-quality educational the green belt in my constituency; secondly, I will work
facility, delivering training and skills to equip young with stakeholders to improve bus services, specifically
people in my constituency and the wider area to succeed the much-needed direct link between Ramsbottom in
in their working lives, specifically in careers in the NHS. the north of my constituency and Manchester city
It is a fantastic project and I thank the Minister for his centre; and thirdly, I will speak up for my Kashmiri
input into it. I want to take every opportunity to praise constituents, who are concerned about human rights
those who are doing everything possible to improve the abuses in Kashmir.
lives of the people of Bury North, including the Minister, It is the honour of my life to be given the opportunity
who said: to represent the residents of Bury North. I am delighted
“I think it’s an extraordinary story of ambition by the college that Bury has elected two Conservative Members of
and its leaders but also a partnership between the college and Parliament for the first time since 1992. Although my
Government investing in the future of young people across this
region.”
hon. Friend the Member for Bury South is not here, I
am sure we will make a formidable team, speaking on
As the Member for Bury North, I will do all I can to behalf of our borough. I have been a councillor in my
continue to support all schools and educational providers constituency for more than seven years and a partner
in my constituency to deliver an outstanding educational in a small business based in Bury, where I have worked
journey, providing all Bury youngsters with the life for the past 12 years. I spent nine of those years as a
skills and qualifications they need to thrive during their criminal defence legal aid solicitor, representing the
working lives. I should also say that we have many most vulnerable before Bury magistrates court.
fantastic private sector nursery providers who are delivering
We have touched on those from disadvantaged
outstanding educational provision.
backgrounds and those with special educational needs,
My predecessor, James Frith, served on the Select but I wish very briefly to mention Mathew. I began
Committee on Education in the last Parliament and representing Mathew in court when he was 12 years of
was a vocal advocate for improvements to the education age. He was a young man from a terrible background,
system. I have known James for many years and we both but he had more talent in his finger than I have in my
served as councillors together in Bury. I wish to pay body. At 12 years of age, he gave the best mitigation in a
tribute to his formidable campaigning skills and thank court room that I have ever heard. For seven years, I
him for the courteous way he behaved towards me in the tried to keep him out of prison and, ultimately, I did not
general election campaign. He is a good man; I wish succeed. It is one of the great indictments of our society
him and his family well for the future. that, if Mathew had been born to a middle-class couple,
It would be remiss of any Bury MP not to talk about he would be stood where I am now. We must do everything
the disgraceful circumstances that have led to Bury to make sure that Mathews do not fall through the net.
football club losing its football league status this season. In conclusion, I pay tribute to my wife Joanne for her
Some 135 years of history and tradition have been support and selflessness, which has allowed me to be
ignored by the football authorities. The Football Association here, and to everyone else who has supported me. For
and the English Football League should prioritise the many years, I have played cricket, spectacularly badly,
959 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 960

[James Daly] remain within the UK and in the European Union in

recent referendums. Maintaining Scotland’s place in the
for Brooksbottom cricket club in my constituency. I UK is best for the economic and social wellbeing of
urge the parliamentary cricket team to come to these islands, and it is incumbent on everyone who
Brooksbottom to test the wicket out— believes that to demonstrate it not only in our words
but in our actions. It was my friend and colleague,
Ben Everitt: And to play you. Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, who turned North East
James Daly: Yes. I have loved cricket since being a Fife into a Liberal Democrat constituency, to which it
young boy, but have not had the talent to match has returned with my election. He is held in much
my aspiration. Over all the years I have played for affection in the constituency, but North East Fife has a
Brooksbottom, I have not yet scored 50—after 10 years. longer Liberal tradition, with Prime Minister Herbert
I will continue to strive. The joy of being part of a team, Asquith representing the seat in its previous form of
working to a common goal and never giving up may be East Fife. Asquith and I might differ in our views on
an apt description of my cricket, but I hope it is also a universal suffrage, but 100 years on from Nancy Astor
characteristic of my representation of my constituency. it is a huge honour to be the first female Member of
I have one final secret that I would like to let you in Parliament to represent the constituency. I could not
on, Madam Deputy Speaker. In Bury North we have have achieved that without the support of the Liberal
the finest football coach in this country. He is called Democrat campaign for gender balance, the Parliament
Danny Grundy and he is the manager of Walshaw Project and the 50:50 Parliament #AskHertoStand
Wildcats under 8s. Above all else, I look forward to campaign.
watching them on Saturday in the top-of-the-table clash I am aware that I come from a position of privilege. I
with Shawside. am white, heterosexual and cisgender. I was in a position
where I could afford to take an unpaid career break
Several hon. Members rose— during the election campaign, then leave my employment
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): It is a directly after my election. I know that for many who
great pleasure to call Wendy Chamberlain to make her have an ambition to enter politics, whether at local or
maiden speech. national level, that is simply not possible. I urge the
House to consider how it continues to increase diversity
4.54 pm not only in the Chamber but throughout politics and
across all areas of diversity, including disability, ethnicity
Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): I begin and socioeconomic background—we should not limit
my maiden speech, perhaps unusually, by congratulating ourselves to a gender perspective. Local government in
the hon. Member for Bury North (James Daly) on his particular needs increased diversity. I had the privilege
excellent maiden speech. We can certainly agree on of serving for 12 years as a police officer. Like the police
ensuring that deprived children and those with additional service, we should seek to ensure that we are truly
support needs are supported. I note his work on the reflective of the communities we serve and represent.
board of governors of Hoyle nursery and commend its North East Fife is a diverse and beautiful constituency,
achievements as well as those of Springfield Primary taking in Levenmouth, the Howe of Fife, the East Neuk,
and Bury College. I commend the hon. Gentleman’s the royal burgh of Cupar and communities on the south
commitment to education. I appreciate his telling us banks of the Tay. It is home to Leuchars Army and
about his cricket-playing career and the fact that perhaps former RAF base. St Andrews is the home of golf,
it does not live up to expectations. I play the amateur which will again welcome the Open in 2021. It is also
Scottish sport of shinty and would be happy to tell home to St Andrews University, Scotland’s oldest university,
Members all about it. I do not play particularly well, so established in 1413. The university is the area’s major
stand well back. I look forward to hearing from the employer, and was recently ranked by The Guardian as
hon. Gentleman again during his time in Parliament. Scotland’s top university, and second in the UK—a
It is a great honour to make my maiden speech as the considerable achievement, I am sure Members agree.
new Member of Parliament for North East Fife. I pay My constituency’s other industries include tourism,
tribute to my most recent predecessor, Stephen Gethins, farming, agriculture and our vital fishing communities.
who served North East Fife with distinction from 2015. One area that combines a number of these is the growth
It is clear from my few days here that he was well liked in distilleries in the constituency that are providing both
and well respected by Members across the House. I produce and visitor attractions. My predecessor mentioned
recognise the work of his parliamentary team, both our whisky distilleries in his maiden speech, but I would
here and in the constituency. It is easy to forget in the also like to mention North East Fife’s increasing number
heat of an election that when Members lose or resign of gin distilleries, such as Eden Mill, Pilgrim’s, Darnley’s
their seat that has a direct impact on their employees, so of Kingsbarns and Lundin Links. Having come to this
I wish all of them the best for the future. House directly from the drinks industry, I hold a general
I thought of Stephen last week, as he is a committed certificate in distilling and would be more than happy to
European and a strong supporter of the Erasmus scheme. tutor Members accordingly. I am also noticing a theme
He will be saddened that the House voted against the to my party’s maiden speeches, given that my hon.
scheme, which has nothing to do with the EU’s institutions, Friend the Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) referred
which will simply deprive British students of the chance to the number of pubs in her constituency yesterday.
to enjoy studying across Europe—something from which North East Fife is a largely rural constituency. As
Stephen benefited. well as presenting many of the opportunities I have
There is much that Stephen, his former SNP colleagues outlined, this also means that it has challenges, particularly
and I agree on regarding Europe and the UK’s role around transport, rural poverty and accessing public
within it. North East Fife as a constituency voted to services. I am delighted to see that the reinstatement of
961 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 962

the Levenmouth railway is now moving forward. This be a very short time limit on everyone’s speeches, but I
will see one of the local communities that is most hope that we can manage better than that. I am delighted
poorly served by public transport properly connected to to call Paul Holmes to make his maiden speech.
the central belt of Scotland. I commend the work of the
members of the Levenmouth Rail Campaign for their 5.4 pm
efforts in this regard.
Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): Thank you, Madam
I am my party’s spokesperson on political and Deputy Speaker—I will do my best to follow your
constitutional reform, and believe that transformation instructions.
is required in local government in England in order to I congratulate the hon. Member for North East Fife
ensure better representation. Alongside the introduction (Wendy Chamberlain), my hon. Friends the Members
of a written constitution and renewed support for the for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) and for Wantage
devolved Administrations, these steps are urgently needed. (David Johnston), the hon. Member for Luton South
Local government in England is confusing and often (Rachel Hopkins) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bury
unaccountable, and that also speaks to the Westminster North (James Daly) on making excellent maiden speeches.
electoral first-past-the-post system. It took 330,000 votes Being so far down the list of speakers there is a bit more
in the general election to elect me or one of my Liberal pressure on my shoulders, but I congratulate them and
Democrat MP colleagues, whereas it took just 38,000 wish them well.
votes to elect a Conservative. To elect the only MP for
May I just be personally indulged as I say how
the Greens—the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion
pleased I am that my hon. Friend the Member for
(Caroline Lucas)—took 866,000 votes. On a personal
Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) is sitting next to me
level, I would much rather that people voted for me and
while I make this speech? He gave me my first proper
my party because they liked and agreed with me and my
job in politics—he is mad—but he had a fantastic result
party’s policies the most, rather than because we are the
on 12 December and it is an honour to have him sitting
option that they disliked the least.
next to me. I will not emulate everything he has done in
We have myriad electoral systems, resulting in confusion his career but I am delighted he is sitting next to me.
and disengagement. Ultimately, when we then ask for It is an honour to make my maiden speech as the
binary answers to complex questions, we should not be Member of Parliament for Eastleigh, and it is a privilege
surprised if they come out with results that we were not to speak in this debate on Her Majesty’s Gracious
expecting. The sinews of our parliamentary democracy Speech. I am delighted to speak today on the subjects of
are being strained, and it is our role as parliamentarians education and local government, because through both
and legislators to ensure that these systems are fit for my time as a lead member for education on Southampton
purpose. Without solving that democratic deficit in the City Council and as a former special adviser at the
voting systems, which differ in all four nations of our Department for Education under the leadership of my
country, we continue to weaken the bonds of the UK. Is right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire
that fair? In the Brexit referendum, two of our nations (Damian Hinds), I know the tireless work that our
voted against such a step, yet we are set to leave the teaching staff in all education sectors put into changing
European Union on the hardest of terms. There has the lives of local people, and we owe them a huge debt
been no attempt by this Government to treat this as a of gratitude.
process of four nations. This has failed the devolved I would like to welcome the announcement of minimum
Administrations, weakened our democracy and undermined levels of funding for both our primary and secondary
the United Kingdom. And yet, the Government’s own schools, as well as the further education sector. That
electoral reform proposal in this Queen’s Speech will will benefit colleges such as Eastleigh College and Barton
make it more difficult for people to vote, by introducing Peveril College which provide fantastic services to our
voter identification. If the Government think that making young people. I congratulate the Secretary of State and
it more difficult to vote is the answer, I would respectfully Ministers on securing such funding. I know that they
ask, “What is the question and where is the evidence?”— will understand that there is much more work to do on
remember, I did mention that I had been a police officer. the recruitment and retention of teachers in all sectors,
In an era of social media, when MPs are more accessible but I am encouraged by the announcements they have
than ever, surely our voting system should be too. That made. I also have a passion for social mobility, which I
means giving EU citizens the guarantees they were know Ministers share. After all, it was social mobility
promised about the voting rights post Brexit, and following that allowed a council estate boy like me to sit in the
the devolved Administrations by delivering votes at 16. mother of all Parliaments today.
In this Parliament, I look forward to representing the It is a tremendous privilege to represent Eastleigh in
people of North East Fife and working with Members this House. I would like to pay tribute to my predecessor
across the House to deliver the changes to our democracy —my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex
that will make the United Kingdom fit for purpose as (Mims Davies). Many people in this House say that
we enter the third decade of the 21st century. their predecessors cast a shadow over their successors.
Well, I have the living embodiment of my predecessor in
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I this Chamber every day. She laid the groundwork for
remind the House that my request that speeches should many campaigns that I continue to champion, and I
be short applies to those making maiden speeches as thank her for her service.
well. What I had hoped we could do is have maiden Of course, I would like to thank my local association,
speeches of approximately eight to nine minutes and my long-suffering association Chairman, Jerry Hall,
other speeches of approximately five to six minutes, but and all of my activists who worked tirelessly for the
that does not seem to be working. If we do not get result that we achieved on 12 December. I would very
co-operation on that, I am afraid that there will have to quickly like to thank my team—Sue, Emma, Ben and
963 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 964

[Paul Holmes] I thank the House for indulging me in silence today;

I am sure that that will not continue. Once again, I
Charlie—who are already working tirelessly for the welcome the announcements made on education funding
constituency of Eastleigh and answering phone calls as and recognise the commitment made to infrastructure
we speak. spending by the Prime Minister last week. My constituents
in Eastleigh can expect me to be a constant champion
Eastleigh is a fantastic place. Indeed, I would argue of their interests. I know that this Government are a
that it is the most distinct and striking constituency Government who will listen to those concerns, and I
within the UK, starting in Eastleigh town centre, which intend to act on them.
was created at the turn of the last century to build and
develop the London and South Western Railway. It was
5.10 pm
originally called Barton village. Eastleigh was renamed
by a kind local benefactor who donated £500 to the Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab):
building of a local church. That is why we have the I congratulate the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes)
Eastleigh name today, and long may it continue. Eastleigh on his speech, which gave much laughter. I wish him
aerodrome, or Southampton airport as it is now called, luck on receiving those cheques, and I hope that those
built and flew the original Spitfires and has a long and of us on the Opposition Benches will get some as well.
proud aviation history. Southampton airport is a crucial One of the most important responsibilities of any
local employer. As we heard this morning, we must Government is the protection of society’s most vulnerable
continue to nurture it as such, including the regional people. It is not some utopian ideal to believe that we
airlines that operate out of it. must protect our young and look after our elderly. It is,
Also in Eastleigh town centre is Cosy Café, which I in fact, a basic measure of a just and compassionate
would argue supplies the best ham and cheese omelettes society, as well as a statutory duty for local councils.
in the whole of Hampshire. They certainly kept me Sadly, in both those respects, this nation is falling short.
going through the campaign, and I look forward to the In the past decade, we have seen the number of children
emails from many of their rivals in the town centre now in care increase by 28%. There are now more than
offering me the chance of trying many more delicacies. 78,000 children in care in England alone, and as of
31 December last year a total of 529 young children
The constituency also covers small villages such as were in the care of St Helens local authority—63 more
Botley, where Cliff and Steve at the Dolphin inn ran a than the previous year and approximately double the
very successful meat draw—so successful that on the national average. It is an unfortunate reality that there
first time that she visited, my mum, who is in the will always be children in need of care. However, I am
Gallery today, won a huge leg of lamb, which we very sure that Members would agree that those numbers are
much enjoyed on the final weekend of the campaign. far too high. Demand is outstripping provision and
Pubs like the Dolphin inn provide a necessary backbone resources.
to the villages in Eastleigh, and they should continue to
be supported. Another village, Hamble, is home to the Another fundamental reason why care is so pressured
finest sailing club in the country. Netley is home to the is a lack of funding right across local authorities, affecting
famous Netley abbey and castle. My constituency is youth services and education. Support staff are no
steeped in important local history and I pledge to longer in schools to help keep children in mainstream
protect it. education, which drives them out. Last year, councils
had to overspend by £800 million to keep children safe.
Eastleigh does face many challenges, though, I say to In St Helens, the greatest financial pressure on the
Ministers on the Front Bench, the biggest of which is council is children’s social care costs, and particularly
the vital need for infrastructure. The local Liberal Democrat looked-after children. In just 10 years, expenditure on
council has failed to deliver a local plan for over a those children is expected to have risen from £10.5 million
decade, and the one currently with the planning inspector to £25.5 million this year. That is an increase of
would be a disaster if adopted. It includes the building £15 million—143%. I ask Ministers to consider the
of over 5,000 houses on ancient woodland in Bishopstoke, challenge presented to that local authority, and there
which would present an irreversible decline in the green are many more like it.
space and wildlife in the area. I therefore ask my right Often we are not necessarily speaking about good-quality
hon. Friend the Minister whether he will commit to care, as more and more councils are being forced to rely
meet me in the coming weeks so that I can outline the on unregulated care, care not registered with Ofsted and
grave concerns that my constituents have about that out-of-borough care, away from the child’s support
plan. They have not been consulted properly, and Ministers network. I have spoken about these issues before, so I
should know that I will do all I can to reset the clock will not go into too much detail; Members can look at
and build a new local plan with them. what I have said. But those young people who are being
Eastleigh also needs added infrastructure. My placed in unregulated or unregistered care because of a
predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex, lack of other provision, many of whom have learning
rapidly made clear the need for the vital Chickenhall difficulties, are far more likely to be vulnerable to predatory
Lane link road and an urgent resurfacing of the concrete groups such as county lines gangs, which are so prevalent
sections of the M27. We also need urgent upgrades to in communities like mine. This situation has worsened
Hamble Lane, which would stop many of my constituents since I last spoke.
sometimes waiting for over an hour to travel just 2 miles. It is not just our youngest who are being let down by
I am sure the Minister will agree that this is a very small a lack of funding. On the opposite end of the spectrum,
price list to keep my constituents in Eastleigh happy, our adult social care system is on the brink of collapse.
and I look forward to him writing the cheques in the Vulnerable adults are also facing the impact of austerity
coming weeks. policies. Some 44% of expenditure by Knowsley Council
965 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 966

is on adult social care and adult services budgets, and in I would like to pay tribute to my predecessor, Ruth
St Helens we have seen a 40% net reduction in available Smeeth. She will be remembered as a tireless campaigner
resources due to austerity cuts. Every £1 million of for our armed forces, against holiday hunger and fighting
shortfall equates to 62,500 hours of domiciliary care. In antisemitism. The abuse that she has suffered as a result
the past two weeks, an additional 52,000 hours of of her Jewish heritage is a disgrace. I know she will
domiciliary care have been commissioned by St Helens continue in her work to combat antisemitism and all
Council—not far off £1 million—which can be at between other forms of racism, and she can count on me to
£12 and £20 per hour. This shows an increase in demand stand shoulder to shoulder with her on such issues.
as finances are being cut, with more pressure on the As a teacher, a school trade union representative and
care system and people not receiving the care they need. a Tory, I realise I am not the typical stereotype, and I
Without this care, many are driven into hospitals, could not think of a more fitting debate in which to
leading to increased pressures on hospitals. Just on one make my maiden speech. Education is by far the most
day last week, Whiston Hospital pleaded with the public powerful tool we have to improve social mobility. In my
not to go to A&E. It had 35 ambulances parked outside own family, I have seen this at first hand. My mother,
waiting for space—space, rather than beds, because the who joins me in the Gallery today, got into a grammar
corridors were filled with patients receiving inappropriate school off the estate in London. My father, having failed
care on stretchers. It is now applying to install a two-storey his O-levels, took up work as a caretaker to attend night
Portacabin to create 60 beds. And this is in an outstanding school, ending up at Durham University with a Masters.
hospital in this country that has been built for only The hard work, resilience and determination of my
10 years. parents has allowed them to achieve more than what
Councils continue to see their responsibilities increase, many, and indeed they themselves, would have anticipated
with the deprivation of living safeguards, the independent had they been confined to the lazy stereotypes placed
living fund, the Care Act 2014 and transforming care—to upon them. Teachers serve the young people they educate
name a few. Despite this increase in responsibility, local outside the bounds of academia, often assuming the
councils have not seen their funding increase in line. In role of mentor, providing intellectual and emotional
fact, much more they have seen it decrease. Knowsley, support. For most of us there is that one stand-out
which is one part of my borough, has seen £100 million teacher who changed the way we think and made a
in cuts in its budget since 2010, with St Helens making difference to our lives. The teacher who inspired me is
£90 million of cuts. The increase in social care funding Dr Simon Peaple. He was the head of history and
recently announced for 2020-21 is welcome, but it is not politics at my school. My right hon. Friend the Member
enough to meet current, let alone future, demands. for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), who cannot be
However, there is no news on 2021 onwards. How can here, will know him well, because he is now the leader of
local authorities properly plan to meet this statutory the Labour group on Tamworth Borough Council. His
duty? teaching was so effective that, despite him coming to
We have heard declarations from Members on the campaign for my predecessor, I was able to make it on
Government Front Bench, including the Prime Minister to the Green Benches today. But, in all seriousness, his
and the Chancellor, that austerity is over. The Queen’s dedication to his students, extensive subject knowledge
Speech refers to cross-party consensus on social care and passion for the job stuck with me, and I would like
reform. I therefore call on Ministers to put this into to thank him for all that he did.
action. The Government must release the long delayed Getting education right across Stoke-on-Trent North,
Green Paper on the future of social care funding. They Kidsgrove and Talke is crucial. In 2018 the progress
must also begin a bottom-up review and restructure the 8 scores showed a majority of children underachieving
way in which we fund social care for children, young and only 1% of students getting AAB at A-level compared
people and adults. We must also see an end to austerity with 12% across the rest of the west midlands. However,
and an increase in local government funding that matches signs of improvement are beginning to show: today,
the ever-growing responsibilities and pressures that it is over 80% of schools are rated good or outstanding, and
facing. It is councils that are looking after the public, 2019 GCSE results showed a 6% increase in the pass
not us. They are facing the problems, and we have to rate for English and maths across the city of Stoke-on-Trent.
provide the resources and structures to enable them to And with the Government’s support via the Stoke-on-Trent
do so. opportunity area, more breakfast clubs and a 4.7% increase
in per pupil funding, the city is on the up.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I I say the city is on the up because for too long it has
now call, to make his maiden speech, Jonathan Gullis. been perceived negatively. Football pundits talk about
whether players can perform on a cold Tuesday night in
5.17 pm Stoke-on-Trent and last week Piers Morgan wondered
Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): “Ay whether the Duchess of Sussex would ever want to face
Up Duck” is how I should start, Madam Deputy Speaker, opening a community hall on a wet Wednesday in Stoke.
and I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent In addition, the town of Kidsgrove has been passed
South (Jack Brereton) will be happy with my pronunciation. from pillar to post in Boundary Commission changes
May I start by saying what an honour and a privilege and is now being nicknamed the forgotten town. Well, I
it is to make my maiden speech today, and to represent say that Stoke-on-Trent is a city to be proud of, Kidsgrove
the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and will no longer be forgotten, and it is time that we started
Talke? I could not be prouder to serve and, as I said to talking about Talke—a bit of cheese.
the Stoke Sentinel at 5.30 in the morning of election If Members are looking for somewhere to spend their
night, I will “work my bum off ” to deliver the change next bank holiday weekend, they need look no further.
that my constituents deserve. After enjoying a cheesy Staffordshire oatcake they can
967 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 968

[Jonathan Gullis] line and ensure the city of Stoke-on-Trent becomes the
core of the tech revolution. Silicon Stoke is an ambition
make their way to the mother town of Burslem, birthplace to put this city at the centre of future skills and jobs. We
of Lemmy from Motörhead, 16-time world dart champion are rated as having some of the best 4G download speeds
Phil “the Power” Taylor and Robbie Williams. They can in the country and we are leading the way by rolling out
also go for a walk around the award-winning park or 60 miles of full fibre broadband across the city, thanks
pop down to Vale Park and see Port Vale FC play, or see to Swedish firm VX Fiber and this Government’s investment
local businesses such as Synectics Solutions, Titanic of over £9 million. According to council officers, that
Brewery and Autonet, which together employ thousands could generate a £625 million boost to the Stoke-on-Trent
of local residents. economy, meaning more jobs and higher wages.
Burslem was the heartbeat of this city and hosts its Stoke-on-Trent, one of the great cities of the industrial
ceramic industry from Royal Stafford to Moorcroft. In revolution, knows what it means to be at the centre of
neighbouring Middleport we can see Steelite and go on the country’s economy. I wish to see the city reignited at
a tour of Middleport Pottery. The place is home to the heart of the coming technological revolution. One
“The Great Pottery Throw Down” on Channel 4 and of my roles as a Member of Parliament is to represent
was used for filming on the TV series “Peaky Blinders”. the people, the place and the history of Stoke-on-Trent
Next, we can visit another of the original six towns, North, Kidsgrove and Talke. I will pursue relentlessly
Tunstall, where we will soon be able to visit the newly the potential and ambition of my constituency, and I
refurbished town hall, go shopping at the indoor market will shout at every turn about how amazing the city is
and see another ceramics giant in Churchill China. and the opportunities it possesses. Make no mistake: we
are on the up.
We can then make our way to Kidsgrove and Talke.
Here we can walk along the beautiful Trent and Mersey
canal to see the Harecastle tunnel; at one and a half 5.26 pm
miles long it was once the longest in the country, Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): It is a
responsible for taking the coal to the kilns. We can also pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent
see the site of the old sports centre, which, thanks to the North (Jonathan Gullis). That was an excellent maiden
efforts of Kidsgrove sports centre community group speech, joining a series of excellent maiden speeches
and the Conservative-led Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough made across the House. I wish all new Members well in
Council, will be refurbished and reopened next summer their time in Parliament.
so it can retain its place as a key community asset. This is my first speech since returning at the general
It is said that world war two was won in the skies, as election, so I would like to take this opportunity to
alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh thank my neighbours for electing me again and giving
(Paul Holmes), thanks to a little plane called the Spitfire. me the privilege of being our voice here in Parliament. I
In Talke my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh can stood for election on a set of promises, and I intend to
visit the Reginald Mitchell peace garden, named after make good on them. Uppermost of them was to fight
the Spitfire inventor and yards from where he was born. for our schools and for the best resourcing for our
Reginald Mitchell is heavily celebrated across the Potteries schooling, so it seems apt to start there.
and in 2003 was voted the greatest midlander in the I was pleased to see in the Queen’s Speech talk of
BBC’s online TV and radio vote. more resources for schools, but we have to understand
Lastly, we have Chatterley Whitfield colliery. It is one the context in which we have that conversation. Austerity
of the most complete former colliery sites in Europe has harmed Nottingham in very many ways, but nowhere
and has been designated a scheduled ancient monument. more than through cuts to schools. Since 2015, £20 million
It was the first colliery in the country to achieve an has been lost from our children—nearly £400 per head.
annual output of 1 million tonnes, which was achieved Those are cuts that will not heal. Over the past 10 years,
in 1937 and again in 1939. The colliery ceased production Ministers have come to the Dispatch Box to say, in very
and closed its doors on working miners in March 1977. much the same triumphal spirit in which the Secretary
The hard work undertaken by the Friends of Chatterley of State started this debate, that there will be more
Whitfield has seen some buildings brought back to use, money for schools. However, the reality has not matched
sell-out tours on heritage weekends and important that. Growing costs, whether through the growing number
documents saved. However, this important piece of of pupils or the growing complexity by which some of
heritage is still at risk of being lost. The potbanks those pupils need educating, have hoovered up that
would not have fired if it were not for the coal brought extra money and the reality has been real-terms cuts.
from the deep mines at Chatterley Whitfield. The Potteries We need to keep a laser focus on that. I certainly will,
would not have existed. I made it a central pledge in my particularly in two regards. The first relates to what the
campaign to protect and preserve the site with a long-term funding does for class sizes.
plan. The loss of such a site would mean that future Ministers on the Treasury Bench argue that more
generations could be denied an invaluable opportunity money is going into schools and those on the Opposition
to learn about their past. I will not stand by and let that Benches say there is less, so we get into that sort of
happen. political back and forth. The reality on the ground in
Talking up an area is very important, but it is crucial my constituency is that in pretty much every primary
to acknowledge the challenges we face. We need more school, school class sizes have increased. At Bulwell
school places, better public transport and to bring more Saint Mary’s, there have been an extra two and a half
high-skilled, high-wage jobs to Stoke-on-Trent, Kidsgrove pupils per class between 2015 and 2018. At Rosslyn
and Talke. We must invest in the city by opening up free Park, where I have been chair of governors for the past
schools to offer more parental choice. We must reverse decade, it is also two and a half. It is nearly two at
some of the Beeching cuts by opening up the old mineral Henry Whipple as well. This is the story across my
969 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 970

community. Until that number starts going down, we speech and I reflect on the fact that many seek election
are going to continue to talk about it. Any new money to this House, but most do not succeed. Of those who
seems to go to better-off communities. Over the past do, many do not have the opportunity to represent the
five years, the average cut in poorer communities has place where they grew up and the place that they
been nearly £400, but for the best-off it has been only a consider home. That I have been successful on both
third of that. If the new money goes into schools that counts is particularly humbling, and in my time in this
are already doing better, it will only widen inequalities. House, I look forward to representing all the people of
I do not want to spend my time solely talking about Gedling to the best of my ability.
money, because we have to get on to other issues, too. I I am the fourth Member of Parliament for Gedling
want to raise something that does not get talked about since the seat’s creation in 1983. I do not remember
very much at all. It is one of the unspoken disparities in Sir Philip Holland, although he is fondly remembered
our education system: the outcome for boys, particularly by some of my older voters. He also represented the
white British boys in working-class communities. All predecessor seat of Carlton. He was a vociferous
primary school governors know that rush at key stage 2 campaigner against the proliferation of quangos and
to try to get to 65% in combined reading, writing and was, among other achievements, a valued member of
maths. In challenged communities like mine, that is the Public Accounts Committee.
really difficult. We have worked really hard and achieved Sir Philip was succeeded by my right hon. Friend the
that: we are broadly in line with the national average. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), who held
However, hidden within that is a real disparity. a number of junior ministerial positions in his time
In my community, 70% of girls are meeting the target as Member for Gedling and is still regarded there as an
but only 59% of boys are making it. Let us look at some effective, hard-working MP—something that he found
of the poorer schools. I will not name them, because for himself when he very kindly came to help my
this is not about picking out those schools for criticism; campaign in December.
it is a broader problem. Nevertheless, in some of our My immediate predecessor is Mr Vernon Coaker, a
primaries we see the following: 76% of girls meeting the teacher who served Gedling for over two decades, including
age-related expected standard as against 35% of boys; time as a Minister. Mr Coaker is well regarded locally
79% playing 40%; and 92%—what an outstanding across the political spectrum. As I have got to know
achievement for the girls in one of my primary schools—as Conservative colleagues here over the last few weeks,
against only 56% of the boys. In all, boys have worse they have all spoken warmly of him as a fair opponent
outcomes in 26 of the 29 primary schools in my constituency and have particularly praised his work on the important
that I can get data for, and in 17 of the 29, the difference issues of human trafficking and modem slavery. I said
is greater than 10%. In general, the poorer and less at my declaration that, in undertaking my responsibilities
diverse the ward, the bigger the gap. This is not a as a constituency MP, I can ask for no better role model
Nottingham North or a Nottingham peculiarity and we than my predecessor, and I am happy to restate that on
have to do something about it. the Floor of the House today. Vernon Coaker gave his
The Minister for Universities, Science, Research and maiden speech on 10 June 1997. In it, he made a
Innovation, who is in his place, was on the Education confession: he said that the name Gedling often provokes
Committee in 2014 which identified this problem and the question, “Where?” I regret to inform the House
the root causes—low expectations of these children, that more than 22 and a half years later, I find myself in
poor absence rates and discipline, and curriculums that much the same situation, so allow me to recap.
do not appeal to them. When we read that Education Gedling is a constituency in Nottinghamshire, lying
Committee report, it is striking that nothing has changed to the north-east of the city of Nottingham. It comprises
in that time, so I call on the Government to pick up the two principal towns: Arnold and Carlton. Arnold is a
cudgels on this critical issue and have better curriculums market town that was once home to many factories
based on international best practice; specific, targeted connected to the hosiery industry, but is now primarily
resource to augment the pupil premium; a focus on residential. It was the birthplace of Thomas Hawksley,
catching up for boys who fall behind at key stage 1; and a civil engineer whose work on water supply projects
the deployment of the best teachers in the most challenged ensured that thousands of people across many towns
schools, incentivised to work in the hard environments. had access to safe drinking water. It was also the
Of course, we also need the full reversal of the per-head birthplace of Richard Parkes Bonington, a Romantic
cut for each pupil that every school in my community landscape painter, many of whose works can be found
has experienced. in the Wallace Collection.
Several hon. Members rose— Carlton, similarly, was home to textile factories but is
now primarily residential, as are the smaller towns of
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Netherfield, Colwick and Mapperley. The suburban
Order. As colleagues will be aware, there is pressure on nature of Gedling is broken by the pretty villages of
time, so after the next speaker, I will put a five-minute Burton Joyce and Stoke Bardolph, the latter on the
time limit on speeches. In the meantime, it is with great River Trent, which have retained their rural charm. At
pleasure that I call Tom Randall to make his maiden the centre of the constituency lies the equally pretty
speech. village of Gedling, which gives its name both to the
constituency and the wider borough. Gedling was home
to a colliery and the site is now an attractive country
5.31 pm
park from which, on a clear day, one can reportedly see
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): It is a pleasure to Lincoln cathedral. The rather unusual name “Gedling”
follow my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member derives from the Saxon chief Gedl, who sailed up the
for Nottingham North (Alex Norris). This is my maiden River Trent and settled in the area. I do not know what
971 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 972

[Tom Randall] pupil than in 2015, so we welcome any new money, but
as has been said, we must keep an eye on what else
Gedl would have made of modem politics, but I like to schools are being asked to pay for—not least the very
think that, as a Saxon and presumably fair-haired leader, welcome rise in the basic rate for teachers’ salaries.
free of the Norman yoke and leading his people to a There is something else I find depressing about the
new political settlement, he would look favourably Queen’s Speech and the speeches from Ministers. I
upon my work in my first weeks here, voting with believe that we now need a national debate on education.
colleagues to get the withdrawal Bill through and honour We are spending more money on it and I think the
the decision the people of Gedling took in the 2016 public deserve to know if we are getting the best value
referendum—a decision that should be respected. I also for money. As far as I can see, the Government’s policies
look forward to supporting the Government in their are ideological, not evidence based. They need to be
commitment to recruit a further 20,000 police officers—I driven by what actually works. This morning we heard
am pleased that recruitment has started—as well as to about behavioural standards and a rigorous curriculum,
the promised increased spending for the national health but those were buzzwords when I first started teaching,
service. and even before that. We know so much more now
We can only guess at what Gedl would have made of about what works.
that common feature of modern life: the repetition of In his opening remarks, the Secretary of State mentioned
slogans. During the course of the election campaign, PISA. My master’s was in comparative education at the
there were two that I repeated with even more conviction Institute of Education, and I learned a few things about
than “Get Brexit Done”. They were that Gedling is PISA then. It has its place and I would not like us to
a great place to live, work and raise a family, and that withdraw from it but, that said, we are in the middle of
Gedling made me who I am. I grew up in Arnold and, the table. There is a lot of rhetoric and a lot of warm
like many thousands of schoolchildren, I went to schools words about world-class schools, but if the Government
I happened to be in the catchment area for. At what was care so much about PISA, they should look at the evidence.
then Redhill Comprehensive School, a good school that We are in the middle of the table, and those at the top
now, as Redhill Academy, is an even better one, I learned do not care that much about PISA. What they are doing
the transformative power of education. My education is innovating and breaking down the walls between
opened many doors for me, the son of working-class subjects. It is clear from the latest report, published just
parents, including the doors to this Chamber. If we are a few weeks ago, that they are putting social and emotional
to truly level up, we must ensure educational opportunity wellbeing right up there with high-quality content: not
for all. I welcome the Government’s commitment to as an adjunct, not as an afterthought, but as a driver.
increasing funding for schools and starting salaries for Children who are emotionally secure learn better. That
teachers. As its future was at stake in this election, I is an obvious thing to say, but I do not think that we are
welcome the return of a Government who will ensure prioritising it in this country. So far the approach has
that Ofsted will continue as the body to maintain standards been haphazard, and I am sorry to say that we are
in education. seeing the same approach in other matters to do with
I look forward to supporting colleagues on these and education. Erasmus has been mentioned today. I am
all the other issues contained in the Queen’s Speech and sad that the House chose not to support the amendment
I trust that, whether the next maiden speech by the that I tabled last week.
Member for Gedling is made in four and a half years or
45 years’ time, right hon. and hon. Members will know Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): The hon. Lady has
exactly where Gedling is. talked about the PISA rankings. Is it not right to pay
tribute to the teachers as a result of whose hard work
the UK is performing better in reading than France,
5.37 pm Germany, Japan and the United States? Should we not
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): I pay tribute to them for those great achievements?
congratulate the hon. Member for Gedling (Tom Randall) Layla Moran: I could not agree more. Our teachers
on his tour de force. I just googled Gedling and it are heroes. Day in, day out, teachers in secondary and
looks delightful. I will certainly consider it as a destination primary schools, especially primaries—I still do not
for the next bank holiday. I am sure everyone will agree understand how they do it; those people have the patience
that it has been instructive sitting in the House this of angels—are doing an incredible job, and I thank the
afternoon. hon. Gentleman for giving me the chance to say so.
I made my maiden speech in the education part of That said, however, they are doing it under enormous
the Queen’s Speech debate. As I said then and as I say strain.
now, as a former teacher, it is this issue and my driving The thin end of the wedge is exclusions, which currently
passion to ensure that every single child, no matter their represent a huge crisis in our education system. Vulnerable
background, reaches their full potential that has brought children are falling through the cracks of a system that
me here. Of course then, whenever I see a Queen’s Speech, is under extraordinary strain. As I said earlier, I went
I scour it for the education bit. This time, I had to keep into politics because I was appalled that there was such
looking, because it was one sentence—one sentence in a strong link in this country between where people go
Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech on education—and it and where they come from. This House is becoming
concerned an announcement that had already been more representative when it comes to women and a bit
made on school funding. more representative when it comes to black and minority
We do need more money. We have been debating this ethnic people, but how representative is it when it comes
in the House cross-party—I give everyone their due—for to socioeconomic backgrounds? That, I think, is the one
a long time, but 83% of schools will have less money per thing that we do not talk enough about in this place.
973 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 974

In our schools, it is the kids who come from poorer The solution to levelling up is pretty simple. It is
backgrounds who are consistently falling through the about more public sector investment and more private
cracks. The rate of permanent exclusions increased by sector investment. However, “simple” and “easy” are
52% between 2013-14 and 2017-18, returning to levels two separate things. The Government are now committed
not seen since the end of the last Labour Government. to a huge, £100 billion investment in infrastructure. It
In secondary schools, for every 10 pupils on the school has not been easy, over the past four and a half years, to
roll, one temporary exclusion is issued. Pupils with persuade the Treasury to do that, but it is committed to
moderate special educational needs are five times more doing it now. However, the trickier problem is ensuring
likely to be excluded than those without them, and more that we get private sector investment, too. Public sector
than 50% of children with SEND who are excluded investment on its own simply will not do.
have social, emotional or mental health difficulties. Black Investment in the north—and not just the north but
Caribbean and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities the regions of England and the other nations of the
are the most likely to be excluded, and pupils on free United Kingdom—is not about political opportunism.
school meals are four times as likely to be excluded as It is about sound economics and has the support of some
their classmates from more affluent backgrounds. of the economists that I have a great deal of faith in.
I do not believe for one second that those children are Jim O’Neill, for example, is an ardent remainer, but he
in any way less able than anyone else. There is something said earlier this year that being in or out of the EU was
wider going on here. I think that we need to look at our not the most important thing, and that our productivity
own system. There are perverse incentives in it, to do performance and our geographic inequality were the
with accountability and the inspection regime, that most important issues we needed to deal with. Andy
encourage teachers to “off-roll” difficult students before Haldane, the chief economist at the Bank of England,
GCSEs. Headteachers are desperate, because of the noted in a recent speech that the regional income gap
punitive way in which Ofsted uses results, to take some between the richest and poorest regions in terms of
of them out of the system so that their ratings do not average incomes was now larger than it had been at any
fall. We know that that is happening: Ofsted itself has time in the early 20th century. That gap narrowed in the
alerted us to it. first 80 years of the last century.
Ultimately, who sets the regime under which Ofsted David Smith, the economist who writes in The Sunday
inspects? Who gives Ofsted its money? It is the Department Times, has welcomed the £100 billion investment in
for Education, and the direction for that is driven by infrastructure and talked about the change we need to
this place. Schools are judged on academic progress. make to the Green Book to ensure that northern and
Incidentally, it is the support staff who are the first to midlands projects, and projects in the south-west and other
go in these leaner financial times. People talk about parts of the country, are stacked up better. He identified
behaviour, and we heard the Minister talk earlier about the fact that the gross value added—the productivity—in
the fact that the Government were putting some more London is about £50,000 per person per annum, whereas
money into local government support— in Yorkshire and Humberside and the north-east, it is
just over £20,000 per annum. There is a clear relationship
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): between average incomes and productivity, so it totally
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I should just say follows that if we get the productivity right, average
that I should have said the limit was six minutes. The incomes will grow. However, as David Smith said in his
hon. Lady has just had seven; it was adjusted in the end. column this weekend, public investment works only
when it is in harmony with private investment. Another
5.45 pm very good economist, Mark Littlewood of the Institute
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): of Economic Affairs, has been quite scathing about
Congratulations on your election, Madam Deputy infrastructure investment. He has pointed out, for example,
Speaker—although there was no need for an election. It that Doncaster has very good road and rail communication
is always a pleasure to speak when a fellow Yorkshire links but still has a long way to go to match the
MP is in the Chair. productivity and prosperity levels of London and the
south-east. So infrastructure alone will not solve this
I have been casting my mind back to when I made my tough, long-term and expensive problem.
own maiden speech. I found it a daunting experience,
and I am pretty daunted now by having to follow some If we are to repay the trust of all the people right
of these amazing maiden speeches. They have been across the north who voted Conservative, including in
truly exceptional, and I congratulate all those who have places such as Darlington, where I spent a lot of time
made their speeches today, and the rest who will make campaigning over the election period, we must ensure
theirs over the next few days. I give them my very best that real incomes grow and that we get better jobs, and
wishes for their future in this place. all that can be derived from higher productivity. We
I would like to speak principally about levelling up. must see higher public sector investment and higher
That is something that clearly encompasses the two private sector investment.
main themes of today’s debate: education and local The public sector is relatively straightforward. We have
government. “Levelling up” is an excellent phrase that been campaigning for some time to get £120 billion
has come from somebody who is very good at articulating spent right across the north with a 30-year plan. That is
phrases to achieve their political ends. It is something what will hopefully be announced at the Budget, but we
that I and many other colleagues on both sides of the need a raft of other policy ideas to encourage private
Chamber have been banging on about for years. It sector investment in some of the left behind towns. Free
is based not on grievance but on sound economics. It is ports are a great policy, but Darlington and many other
about opportunities for people in the north, but it constituencies will not benefit from them. We perhaps
is also a huge opportunity for UK plc. need enterprise zones in town centres rather than business
975 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 976

[Kevin Hollinrake] We must also address health inequalities. Children in

my town centre wards are more likely to live in poverty
parks, and incentives to retrain the long-term unemployed. with smoking parents and to exist on a poor diet, and
We need an SME-first policy. Preston City Council, for they achieve less as a result. However, public health
example, has radically shifted the amount of money it budgets have been slashed under this and previous
spends with SMEs, and we know that SMEs invest a much Governments, and programmes to reduce smoking, reduce
larger proportion of their income back into the local obesity, and give people a better chance in life have
community. We need more public sector jobs. We need largely disappeared. I recently advised the Prime Minister
to consider our high streets and business rates. Building that the average man in my constituency dies at 64,
homes at a discount is an excellent Government policy. before getting their pension, yet the average man in his
Key to all that is devolution. We must ensure that we constituency lives 14 years longer. For the 10th Queen’s
hand powers back to the people who know the towns Speech in a row, I ask the Government to provide us
best and will represent them most effectively. We need with the modern hospital we need in Stockton, a hospital
to do all these things to get private sector investment as that was cancelled 10 years ago despite being a national
well as public sector investment. priority.
We need to do so much more. Many people in my area
5.51 pm cannot get home at night because there are no buses, yet
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): May I the Tory Mayor spent tens of millions of pounds buying
add my congratulations to those who have made maiden Teesside airport. Under his stewardship, or lack of it,
speeches? I, too, have loved the geography lesson. losses have tripled to nearly £6 million a year, and all we
have so far for our taxpayers’ money is two holiday flights
I was a proud local councillor for 17 years and held to Bulgaria. He still pays a fortune to a private
senior roles in education, children and young people, so company to run the airport for him—the debts continue
I know the important role that local government plays to mount up.
in people’s day-to-day lives, and the fundamental
importance of education cannot and should not be I am proud of Stockton Borough Council, which has
ignored. However, I am worried that education does not been held up as an example of how to redevelop town
seem to be a key concern for the Government. Most of centres, and Ministers and others visit to see what the
my local schools face huge cuts to their budgets and are borough is doing. The town was featured on the BBC
no longer able to provide the staff and resources our last night as an example of best practice. The council
young people need. delivers innovative ideas across many other services, but
it, too, worries about the future of children’s services
Ministers over the past 10 years have paid lip service
and social care.
to equality issues, but if they truly believed in equality,
they would not move funding away from the children in Industry also needs a Government who care and
greatest need. They talk of fair funding, but some areas provide support, but this Government have failed on a
need more cash to make up for societal inequalities. It is grand scale, particularly when it comes to Teesside.
tougher in areas such as mine for children to realise When it came to the SSI site and British Steel, the
their full potential and tougher still for parents to Government failed to act and steel production ceased.
subsidise their children’s education, as they are now When the Sirius mine asked for a Government guarantee
often asked to do. to help it trigger international investment, the Government
turned a blind eye. When it came to civil service jobs,
Pupil funding may well have gone up, but schools in
this Government moved them from tax offices, the
Stockton-on-Tees will see a £6.2 billion shortfall this
public landing right service and others in our area. And
year, meaning a loss of about £210 per pupil. Yes, we
all the while their public spending cuts have cost thousands
need to invest in education, but we must also invest in
of jobs at Stockton Borough Council, and many more
public services, particularly those on the frontline, and
elsewhere.
we cannot ignore the role of local government in young
people’s lives. The early years are incredibly important, We desperately need real investment in this country
being formative years of a person’s development, but and in the infrastructure we need, but it is the inequalities
the Tory and Lib Dem Governments of recent years that trouble me most of all. We need to address the
have decimated our Sure Start programme. While inequalities, and areas like mine must have the support
Governments have done a little better on childcare in they need. We need the new Government to act.
recent times, huge gaps in provision still exist, and it is
those with the least who often get the least support. 5.56 pm
Yesterday, a Conservative Member talked about an
increase in resources for social care, but they did not say John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I spoke about local
that much of it had come from extra, buck-passed government after the last Queen’s Speech. The political
taxation in the form of council tax. environment was then very different, and my speech
Despite warm words over the years, particularly in was made more in hope than expectation. How life can
the 10 years that I have been an MP, areas such as mine change. The environment is now completely different,
have been left behind. Despite the Government patting with a new Government with a strong majority and a
themselves on the back about unemployment figures, once-in-a-generation opportunity to make a real and
the rate in my Stockton North constituency has gone up significant difference—an opportunity to be reforming
to 5.2%. It was 4.3% just a year ago. There is a lack and radical.
of confidence in Britain, and it is the Government’s Local government has often been underrated and
responsibility to fix it and to allow industry to flourish. underappreciated, yet it can be and often is very effective.
Local authorities must be given the resources to build Following the great recession of 2008-09, local government
infrastructure, create jobs and rebuild that confidence. adjusted remarkably well in what were very difficult
977 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 978

financial circumstances. Indeed, the importance of local hence it is important to have attractive public realms,
government and its ability to deal with things should good schools, quality housing—in effect, an appealing
not be underestimated. social environment.
If the Government’s agenda is to become a reality, Economic success will drive the regions. I could be
local government will be one of the vehicles that will parochial and suggest that Carlisle and Cumbria is
help to deliver their policies. However, it is becoming almost a case study, with some recent real achievements
increasingly apparent that local government and its and positives: the garden village; road investment; the
powers and structures are in serious need of an overhaul Borderlands; and town centre funding. Yet to truly
if it is to deliver the policies and services we want to see. unleash its potential it requires Government help: structural
reform, whereby seven councils may come down to two;
The new political environment therefore gives the powers to invest; and the opportunity to have a Mayor
Government a unique opportunity to change the present for Cumbria, to give it visibility and leadership. I look
arrangements, and doing so could achieve two fundamental forward to working with Ministers to achieve that. To
things. First, it could improve the balance of power conclude, if we are truly to bring in a new age and
between central Government and local government. As unleash the potential of our regions, I encourage Ministers
has often been said, we are a heavily centralised country to be ambitious, brave and bold. Above all, let’s get on
and we need to rebalance the relationship between with it.
central Government and local government. Secondly,
we have an opportunity to rebalance the national economy,
6.2 pm
with greater economic growth and development in the
regions. Those are two things that successive Governments, David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): My hon. Friend
of both political colours, have failed to do over the past the Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan)
20 or 30 years. has already focused on the education aspect of the
Queen’s Speech, so I will seek to confine my remarks today
I encourage Ministers to be imaginative, ambitious largely to housing, communities and local government.
and bold. If they are, future generations will reap Before I touch on that, I do, somewhat unusually for an
significant benefits and the country as a whole will be Opposition Member, want to welcome one aspect of
much more balanced and, I suspect, much better off. the Queen’s Speech, which is very close to my heart.
I therefore welcome the proposed White Paper, but I Hon. Members will be aware that I campaigned heavily
encourage Ministers to start the reforming process now, in the last Parliament for greater parental leave for the
rather than later. parents of premature and sick babies, not least because
The key elements of reform are threefold: structural my own two children had extended stays in neonatal
change; devolution; and investment. For some time, I care. So I am genuinely delighted to see a commitment
have been convinced that the structure of local government in the Queen’s Speech to bring forward an employment
needs changing. First, we must move towards having Bill with provision for
more unitary councils. Unitaries are generally larger, so “extended leave for neonatal care”.
they have greater heft when it comes to policy initiatives. The ministerial team at the Department for Business,
They are generally more efficient, transparent and better Energy and Industrial Strategy know how often I have
understood by voters. They can also lead to substantial been battering on about this, and I look forward to
savings, which then benefit the services they provide. working with Ministers when the employment Bill is
Secondly, I am a firm believer that the introduction of published to make sure that we truly help those families
Mayors for both cities and more rural areas would be who have babies in neonatal care.
beneficial. We have a lot of maiden speeches today and I want to turn now to aspects of the Queen’s Speech
we have heard older Members referring to their own relating to the Ministry of Housing, Communities and
maiden speeches. Interestingly, when I made mine, 10 years Local Government. I understand that three specific
ago, I said that I thought the innovative idea of elected Bills fall under its remit, including the building safety
Mayors would be beneficial to this country and, in Bill and the fire safety Bill, which have come about
particular, to devolution. I believe they give clear, visible following the tragic events at Grenfell Tower in the
leadership—in effect, there is nowhere to hide—and summer of 2017. These, of course, are about largely
they have the potential to attract individuals with vision devolved matters, and the Scottish Government have
and ambition. The Mayors we already have are evidence already taken prompt action on building regulations,
that that is correct. Combined with reformed structures, including introducing new regulations that make Scotland’s
proper devolution needs to take place, with real power high-rise buildings even safer. That is particularly pertinent
and proper responsibility, including tax-raising powers, to my constituency, where we have high-rise blocks in
given to Mayors and authorities. These reforms will help Parkhead, Sandyhills and Cranhill. Many of the measures
to lay the foundations of a renaissance in the regions. announced in these Bills are to be welcomed, and
The third element is equally important: investment—hard I commit the Scottish National party to working
cash. Of course cities and regions must help themselves, constructively during the passage of that legislation.
but help from central Government will be crucial if it is On the issue of fire safety specifically, I want to
to have a real impact. Funding is needed for infrastructure, welcome yesterday’s news that the Government will
such as rail, roads, digital, and education and skills, but finally be bringing forward delegated legislation to introduce
policy changes also matter. The creation of free ports— five-yearly electrical safety checks in the English private
here I wish to make a pitch for Carlisle Lake District sector, effective from April this year. Scotland introduced
airport/freeport—would send a powerful message of electrical safety checks first, back in 2015, following an
the Government’s intentions. In addition, local government effective campaign from Electrical Safety First, a charity
must ensure that it works to attract private investment, that I very much commend. However, I say gently to
979 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 980

[David Linden] the first time today. He spoke incredibly fluently and
persuasively, without notes, which is extraordinary for a
Ministers that it is disappointing that the duty in England maiden speech.
will not include the regular testing of many portable My hon. Friend spoke persuasively about social mobility,
appliances supplied with lets, something that already which matters hugely to all of us. I have done a little
happens in Scotland. family research. About 100 years ago, as far as we can
I turn now to housing more broadly. We look forward tell, the Courtses were semi-skilled or unskilled workers
to seeing the details of the new renters’ reform Bill; in the midlands and the fens. For those ancestors the
I have no doubt that the Government will be playing prospect that I would become a barrister, or perhaps go
catch-up with the Private Housing (Tenancies) (Scotland) through the doors of this Chamber and stand in Parliament,
Act 2016, which came into force in 2017. That Act must have been utterly fanciful. It cannot have dawned
enshrines in law further protection for tenants, as well on them that that would happen. My paternal grandfather
as security and clarity around the issue of rent increases. was a cobbler and my father got to university through
We note there are proposals to bring forward a social going to the local grammar school. In due course, I
housing White Paper about the supply of social homes, went to the Bar and was then was honoured to be
but as I said yesterday to the Minister for Housing, the elected to come here.
right hon. Member for Tatton (Esther McVey), the British What has made the difference? It is unlikely that the
Government will not make a dent in solving the housing family has become more industrious or more intelligent
crisis if they remain shackled to the ideological plaything as time has gone on. I suggest that the answer is
that is the failed right-to-buy scheme. straightforward: it is education. The advent of mass
I turn briefly to local government. It would be remiss education available to all has meant that people’s talents
of me not to put on record the incredibly difficult have been able to be unlocked. That is why social
position in which Her Majesty’s Government has placed mobility and education matter so much to all of us. My
the Scottish Government, alongside Scotland’s 32 local wife is a governor at the local primary school and my
authorities. The hugely delayed UK Budget means that mother was a teaching assistant for many years, so I am
the Scottish Government, and therefore our local acutely aware of it.
authorities, are having to set an almost blind budget, We have a strong base upon which to build. Since
which helps no one. To add insult to injury, Scottish 2010 the Government’s record has been extraordinary—we
Ministers only found out about the UK Government’s only have to look at the increase in standards to see
11 March Budget on the same day last week as the that. Nationally, 1.9 million children are in good or
media; that is hugely unhelpful. The 11 March date is outstanding schools—that is 86% of children in good
significant because it is the legal deadline by which or outstanding schools. In my constituency area of west
Scottish councils must set local tax rates. However, we Oxfordshire, the figure is around 95%, which is an
are where are we; it would be deeply disappointing if we incredible record, an incredible improvement and a base
ended up in this situation next year. on which we can build. That improvement is the result
Finally, I refer to the proposed UK shared prosperity of academic rigour and some of the policies put in
fund, which was trumpeted to much fanfare but receives place, and it is also the result of the dedication and
little reference in the Queen’s Speech. Media speculation talents of teachers, families and, of course, the students
thus far, which is all we can really go on at the moment, who have gone through the system in that time.
suggests that the fund will be used by the Government I am acutely aware that cost pressures since 2010 have
to splurge and to try to shore up some of the new Tory been significant for teachers. I have a good working
seats gained from Labour in the north of England. relationship with all the teachers in my constituency. I
I gently say to the Minister and the British Government have visited a great many of them and I have tried to
that we will be fighting tooth and nail to ensure that understand the issues in real detail. School funding is
Scotland gets its fair share of funding from the shared not the most straightforward aspect of policy for anybody
prosperity fund. It is high time that the British Government to get to grips with for the first time, but it seems that
outline a way forward as they have been scant on the teachers are now expected to do many more things that
details so far. they were not expected to do in the past, or it may be
Perhaps it is the constitutional distraction of Brexit that aspects of budgets were paid for by the local
that means that this Government are playing catch-up authority but are not now paid for. There are of course
with Scotland on domestic policy so often. I do not good reasons for that, and we all know them. Even now,
know. I do know that I look forward to the coming I think we are paying approximately two thirds of the
parliamentary term, and ensuring that the SNP holds entire education budget towards servicing debt interest—it
the British Government to account and makes sure that is more than the defence budget. That is why we have
they get on with the day job, rather than obsessing had to take the difficult decisions that we have taken
about Brexit, bonging Big Ben and narrow nationalism. over the past decade, but in this Queen’s Speech we can
see the fruits of those difficult decisions and of the
6.7 pm British people’s industriousness as we can start to reinvest.
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): It is an honour to I am really pleased that with this Queen’s Speech the
speak towards the end of the debate. We have heard Government have listened to people like me—constituency
many incredible speeches today from those who are MPs who have come back and reported on what they
making their first remarks in the House. I and others hear from the education frontline.
are slightly in awe of following people who have spoken I am delighted to welcome the levelling up funding. It
with such quality. I cannot mention them all, but I pay is welcome that all schools are receiving significant—in
tribute to my southern neighbour, my hon. Friend the some cases very significant—increases in funding to
Member for Wantage (David Johnston), who spoke for level up throughout the country, particularly in rural
981 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 982

areas such as Oxfordshire, which has historically been frustrated by the Government’s attitude of saying that
underfunded. What is also welcome is that that funding everything in the garden is rosy because there has been
is to be invested in some of the educational areas that I an increase in funding. They have had years of cuts.
know, from talking to teachers, have caused difficulty.
For example, special educational needs provision is Bambos Charalambous: My hon. Friend makes an
demanding for teachers in time and resources, and it is excellent point. The Government should come clean—this
very welcome that much more money is being put into is a smoke-and-mirrors trick—and put back the money
that. Similarly, the various initiatives to help those from that they took out, in real terms.
disadvantaged backgrounds to make the most of their The Government must face up to the fact that not
time to ensure that they also profit from the education enough teachers want to stay in the job. Headteachers
system are very welcome as well. across my constituency of Enfield, Southgate regularly
In the short time remaining, I wish to make one point tell me how difficult it is to recruit and retain staff. The
about the type of education that we offer. Probably the additional workload and stress generated as a result of
biggest thing that employers in my constituency will say being judged on SATs results and Ofsted inspections is
to me when I speak to them is that they could expand one the main reasons given by teachers for leaving the
and grow their business, but they just cannot find enough profession, which is why Ofsted and SATs should be
people to hire with the right skills. In an area such as replaced by a new system of accountability that gives a
west Oxfordshire, which is very high-tech, with aviation, true picture of schools and students.
Formula 1 and all sorts of science spin-offs coming out The impact of child poverty on a child’s education is
of the University of Oxford, there is a real need for indisputable. Children cannot learn when they are hungry,
people who have not only the academic ability but often surviving in cold or damp homes, or enduring severe
the technical ability as well. The focus on T-levels and overcrowding. When I see parents with their children
other vocational skills is very welcome. coming to my surgery showing me pictures of serious
The last point I wish to make is about practical work damp and rodent-infested, overcrowded accommodation
experience. I am grateful that the Royal Air Force has I know that unless action is taken their children’s future
invested in a STEM programme at Carterton Community is at risk. An estimated 4.1 million children are still
College. Meaningful work experience with companies trapped in poverty, and that figure is expected to rise to
in the real world would be of great value to employers 5.2 million by 2022. The Government can make as
and schools alike. many promises as they like about school funding but
unless they tackle child poverty head-on the education
Broadly, I welcome everything in the Queen’s Speech, of children will suffer.
particularly the focus on education, which I hope will
If Members want an example of how the Government
open doors for others, as those doors have been opened
behave towards schools they need look no further than
for me.
the announcement last year that teachers would receive
a 2.75% pay rise. On the last day before the summer
6.13 pm recess, they sneaked out a statement proclaiming that
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): they would fund only 0.75%, leaving schools with strained
This ambitious Queen’s Speech lists a whole series of budgets to find the rest. That is what we have come to
draft Bills on wide-ranging areas, but it raises more expect from Conservative Governments. Local government
questions than answers, and there are glaring omissions has been treated exactly the same. I remember the
in respect of local government and education. Tory-led coalition Government transferring a raft of
responsibilities to local authorities, including the council
The section on education makes much of increased
tax support scheme. However, they gave local authorities
funding for schools. Increased funding is welcome, but
only 90% of the funding needed to administer the
after years of austerity not enough is being offered to
scheme. Is that what we should expect from the Government
reverse the damage that has been done. There are now
under the new funding proposals?
fewer enrichment classes on offer, fewer teaching assistants,
fewer student services staff and less funding for building The Queen’s Speech states that the
maintenance. Creative arts supplies have also been affected, “Government will invest in the country’s public services and
although I was pleased to hear the Minister’s arts infrastructure”,
premium proposal, which I look forward to finding out but there is little mention of funding for local government.
more about. Late last year, the Government released a technical
The truth is that under the Government’s funding consultation on the review of local authorities’ relative
plans 83% of schools will be worse off in real terms in needs and resources—the next stage in the so-called fair
April 2020 than they were in 2015. The Government funding review—which could be a precursor to the
have failed to resolve the even greater crisis in further biggest single shift in money from the most deprived
education and sixth-form colleges, which have suffered areas to the most affluent. That is because the fair
real-terms cuts that have run longer and deeper. They funding review proposes to remove the consideration of
have failed even to mention the nursery school sector. deprivation from the core foundation formula, despite
the Government’s own research, which shows that
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): Does my deprivation is the second-best predictor of the cost of
hon. Friend agree that the failure to recognise the basic services.
difference between a real-terms and cash increase is In my own area, Enfield Council is a good Labour
frustrating for headteachers? In schools in my constituency, council that continually strives to protect frontline services.
headteachers tell me that they do not have a real-terms It covers areas of severe deprivation, including some in
increase—they have a real-terms decrease, even if, in my constituency of Enfield, Southgate. Central Government
some schools, it looks like a cash increase. They are have cut funding to Enfield Council by 60% in real
983 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 984

[Bambos Charalambous] across the constituency the students I spoke to were

overwhelmingly opposed to our departure from the
terms since 2010. When the Government make those European Union. I think they were widely representative
extreme cuts to Enfield Council’s budget, they are making of young people across the country, so I urge Government
a clear choice—they do not see the needs of local Members to recognise the views of that generation as
people as a priority. we seek to navigate the difficult months ahead.
The Government have tried to mask the cuts by The top concern of these young people was the
saying that councils can raise money through increases climate emergency. Some had been involved in the school
in council tax and the social care precept. First, the students’ actions, although the majority had not and
amounts that can be raised in that way are nowhere their concern was just as deep. They are looking for us
near enough to compensate for the cuts since 2010. to take the sort of radical measures needed to tackle the
Secondly, they hardwire regional inequality into the crisis that are absent from this Queen’s Speech, which
system, because it is the richer areas that are able to repeats the 2050 net zero target; that commitment fails
raise more through increases in council tax. Despite them. The Queen’s Speech also wrongly describes the
being one of the areas where the riots took place in Government’s policies on climate change as “world-
2011, Enfield Council has been forced by central leading”, which they simply are not.
Government cuts to slash its spending on youth services I think that the students I talked with would be
by 88%, from £3.5 million in 2011-12 to £411,000 in concerned about the Government’s reaction to the Flybe
2018-19. In its last budget, Enfield Council had to make problems that we were talking about earlier. A strategic
further cuts of £18 million across all services. If Enfield intervention to support a company is clearly something
had not had 60% of its budget cut since 2010, the that the Government should be looking at, but I think
council would be funding those services, our local crime that a general response to encourage and provide further
figures would probably be lower and fewer young people financial subsidy to the most carbon-emitting mode of
in my constituency would feel that their futures had transport would worry those students. Aviation already
been thrown away before they had even begun. The enjoys the advantages of tax-free fuel, and offering a
Government must realise that by acting in haste to cut further general concession across the industry to deal
local government funding they will repent at leisure, with the problems of one company would be a mistake.
because they will have to find more money for the
burgeoning prison population and its after-effects. Alex Cunningham: I have just been reflecting on the
In short, the Government can promise all they like, fact that 44% of the flights at Teesside rely on Flybe, as
but unless they are prepared to fund local government do, as we heard earlier, 90% of those at Southampton
properly again and to undo the damage that has been and two thirds at another airport. It is absolutely critical
done since 2010, the promises in the Queen’s Speech for our country that that company survives, so intervention
ring hollow. might be the way forward after all.

6.20 pm Paul Blomfield: I very much agree with my hon.

Friend, but a strategic intervention to address the needs
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): Let me echo of one company is very different from a generalised
the comments that have been made by colleagues on further additional subsidy to a carbon-emitting industry.
both sides of the House about the many excellent maiden We also ought to look, in a way that goes well beyond
speeches that we have heard today. Some of those new the ambition of this Government, at much more investment
Members are still here, and I think we can look forward in rail to enable us to take more people out of the air
to hearing more from a number of robust representatives and on to other modes of transport.
of their constituencies over the years ahead. The students I spoke to were clearly concerned about
One of the things I do each year in the conference their education and had very strong views about it.
recess in October is organise a community consultation, They did want to see more spent on schools. I know that
to give constituents the chance to set out their concerns the Queen’s Speech has a line about levels of funding
to me and to shape my priorities in Parliament. There per pupil in every school being increased, and the
were something like 40 different events involving more Secretary of State, who is now in his place, took that up
than 1,000 people last year, but one of the things that in his opening comments. However, the Government’s
I am always keen to prioritise is meeting young people who ambition will fail Sheffield students unless, at the very
are not yet old enough to have a vote, but whose lives least, they restore the funding for the 8% real cut that
will be shaped by many of the decisions we make, so I we have seen over the past nine years for our schools.
met year 12 and 13 students at Sheffield Park Academy Last year, I brought a group of headteachers with a
and King Edward VII School, students at the University petition from every headteacher in the city to meet the
Technical College Sheffield, and students in further Schools Minister. I am grateful for the time he gave to
education at Sheffield College. I have to say that these them and I am sure he will have seen the concerns that
discussions are some of the liveliest and best informed they expressed about the consequences of the funding
meetings that I hold each year, and they are a great cuts in their schools. They have had an opportunity to
advert for why our democracy would be strengthened look at the money that they think will be available to
by extending voting rights to 16 and 17-year-olds. them under the Government’s plans and believe that it
It seemed to me that today’s debate was a good will still leave 80% of Sheffield schools worse off in
opportunity to raise some of the students’ concerns, as 2020 than they were in 2015.
people who are at the very heart of our education
system. Those concerns were not simply about education, Thangam Debbonaire: Does my hon. Friend agree
although some were and I will come to those points. I that the effect of these cuts has fallen particularly on
represent a very diverse, socially mixed area, but right funding and provision for children with special educational
985 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 986

needs, and that no amount of protestations from the 6.31 pm

Government Benches changes the salient fact, which is
that our headteachers are telling us that they simply do Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): We
not have the money to do the job not only for children have had a good and well-informed debate. Local
in general, but particularly for children with special government matters. Our councils keep our streets clean.
educational needs, who are suffering and struggling as a They make our towns and cities safer. They protect and
result? support the most vulnerable in society, and they maintain
our open green spaces. When we all inevitably grow
older, they should also allow us to have dignity in older
Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend makes a really important age, but the fact is simple: without the resources that
point. That was one of the issues that we discussed with they need directed to the areas that need it the most,
the Schools Minister and about which the headteachers that is not possible. I want to pay tribute to councillors
from Sheffield felt passionately. I had a sense from of all political persuasions and none, and the dedicated
many of the speeches on both sides of the House that officers and staff who work day in, day out to deliver
there is a recognition that the Government’s proposals our public services in our councils across the country.
for special needs additional funding will fall well short It has been great to listen to contributions from
of what is needed, and I hope that Ministers will pay 30 Back Benchers today, including my hon. Friends
full regard to that. the Members for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), for Bristol
The students I spoke to also had concerns that went South (Karin Smyth), for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman),
beyond funding and on to the content of their education. for Lewisham East (Janet Daby), for St Helens
They wanted to see more time spent on citizenship North (Conor McGinn), for Birmingham, Selly Oak
education and on teaching life skills. I hope that Ministers (Steve McCabe), for St Helens South and Whiston
will reflect on their concerns and ask themselves whether (Ms Rimmer), for Nottingham North (Alex Norris), for
the straitjacket of the national curriculum, linked to the Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), for Enfield, Southgate
focus of Ofsted and the funding constraints on our (Bambos Charalambous) and for Sheffield Central
schools that reduce diversity of subject choice, is enabling (Paul Blomfield); the right hon. Members for Epsom
them to provide the rounded education and preparation and Ewell (Chris Grayling), for Haltemprice and
that our young people want for the increasingly challenging Howden (Mr Davis), for Harlow (Robert Halfon) and
world that they face. for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Sir David Evennett);
There is nothing in the Queen’s Speech on young and the hon. Members for Poole (Sir Robert Syms), for
people’s mental health, but it was a significant concern Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran), for Thirsk
for the students I talked to. The growth in mental health and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), for Carlisle (John
problems among young people is one of the most Stevenson), for Glasgow East (David Linden) and for
worrying issues that I have seen over my nine years in Witney (Robert Courts).
this place. We know that there is a crisis. Students talk I pay a special tribute to all the Members who spoke
to me about the difficulties in accessing support and in this Chamber for the first time. Their excellent maiden
about the long wait between going to their GP and speeches show that, on whichever side of the Chamber
getting their first appointment with child and adolescent we sit, we share a common purpose: to represent our
mental health services. A YoungMinds report recently said constituents and our constituencies in the best way
that 75% of parents saw the mental health of their that we can. I congratulate the hon. Members for
children deteriorate significantly during that period. Wantage (David Johnston), for Ipswich (Tom Hunt),
for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt), for Bury North
The students had a very helpful suggestion on how
(James Daly), for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes), for Stoke-on-
the Government could take a modest step towards
Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) and for Gedling (Tom
tackling this area by providing a counsellor in every
Randall). They made excellent contributions on education
secondary school funded separately and additionally to
and social mobility. We were given tours of their
the money that the schools currently get. That could
constituencies and told snippets of information that we
make a difference by providing crucial early intervention
might not already have known. In the spirit of cross-party
and by reducing the pressure on school budgets;
co-operation, we can all raise a glass of Concrete Cow—but
headteachers are already diverting money intended for
the hon. Member for Milton Keynes North is paying. I
teaching to address the crisis in mental health.
would like to thank those Members for their kind words
I see that you are urging me to wind up, Mr Speaker. I about our former Labour colleagues Sandy Martin,
had been given the indication by Mr Deputy Speaker James Frith, Ruth Smeeth and Vernon Coaker, who all
that some time was to be welcomed. served those constituencies diligently during their time
in the House.
David Linden: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the I will have a gin on the hon. Member for North East
important need to ensure that we tackle mental health Fife (Wendy Chamberlain). My ears pricked up when
issues in young people. Does he, like me, welcome the she described not just the whisky but the gin distilleries
investment from the Scottish Government, which will in her constituency. Now we know the secret of “squiffy”
see 250 new mental health counsellors going into Asquith. It is great that my hon. Friend the Member for
schools, to ensure that we tackle this early on in the Luton South (Rachel Hopkins) brings so much knowledge
process and support young people with mental health of local government to the Chamber. She will no doubt
issues? use that expertise of not only local government but her
constituency in debates in the years ahead. Like her, I
Paul Blomfield: All resources diverted to mental served on my local council and I am proudly wearing
health will be welcomed, and on that point, I am happy my Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council badge, which
to conclude. was given to me by the Mayor of Tameside. Like her
987 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 988

[Andrew Gwynne] because if we do not solve the social care crisis, local
government suffers but, more importantly, those people
constituency, mine has a link with the hatting industry who rely on social care—whether it is children or adults—
because, like Luton, both Denton and Stockport were suffer. It is incumbent on this House to come forward in
important centres of hat manufacturing. Of course, it is this Parliament with solutions that we can all support.
not just Luton Town football club who are the Hatters, In response to the funding crisis that is growing in
but Stockport County football club. several town halls across the country, the Secretary of
In my maiden speech almost 15 years ago, I spoke State announced a finance settlement before Christmas
about my time in local government and the pride I felt that, sadly, barely keeps the wolves from the door. Of
representing my home community—where I have always course, any extra resource for local government is welcome,
lived, where I grew up, where I went to school and and I welcome the fact that we have additional resource
where I brought up my own family. I know that the going in this year compared with previous years, but
Members who spoke today who have had the privilege even the chair of the Local Government Association
to serve in local government know of this pride and the resources board called it the “least worst” settlement of
important contribution that councillors make, despite the past decade— hardly a ringing endorsement. According
the financial pressures that they continue to face. to research from the House of Commons Library, while
The consequences of a decade of Government funding in 2018-19 there was an 8.1% cut in local authority
reductions to local government are visible to all in the funding, this year’s settlement represents a fall of 0.2%.
unrepaired roads, the uncollected bins, the cuts to adult In real terms, the settlement represents a cut in funding
learning and the diminished public services in many while demand for local services continues to grow. These
parts of England. According to the Chartered Institute figures are only possible if local authorities increase
of Public Finance and Accountancy, over the last 10 years, council tax by the maximum level possible, meaning
almost a fifth of the UK’s libraries have closed. There eye-watering, inflation-busting tax increases for ordinary
are almost 10,000 fewer librarians now introducing the households. That is unfair on those areas, often with the
next generation of young people to the stories that greatest need, that are unable to raise sufficient sums
inspired us all when we were young. from council tax increases. It is also economically incoherent,
The money spent by this Government on Sure Start—one because the fact is that many areas will never be able to
of the previous Labour Government’s greatest achievements raise the money that they need through council tax
—has been slashed in half, with catastrophic outcomes alone.
for the children and families most in need. The Sutton On top of this, we have the Government’s fair funding
Trust estimates that as many as 1,000 Sure Start centres review. I fear that, unless the Government change tack,
have closed since 2010. Less visible, however, are the this risks causing further problems for many of those
stresses that have been placed on core services—planning councils that are already struggling. I urge the new
services, building regulation, adult social care and child Members on the Government Benches to pay real attention
protection. These issues are also, sadly, far less visible in to what the Government are proposing in their fair
the Government’s plans in the Queen’s Speech. funding review, because their constituents will be forced
Then we have the crisis in children’s services, which I to bear the cost of some of these changes, particularly
spoke about yesterday in Housing, Communities and in urban areas where the changes will impact the most.
Local Government questions. Last week, we found out Funding for social care for older people is due to
that in the past decade there has been a 139% rise in drop in London, the west midlands, the north-east and
serious cases where the local authority believes a child the north-west at a time when demand for these services
may be suffering or is at risk of serious harm. The Local is rising. We on the Labour Benches will be urging the
Government Association responded by stating: Government to change direction. Local government is
“These figures show the sheer scale of the unprecedented the beating heart of our communities. We will work closely
demand pressures on children’s services and the care system this with the Government where we support their measures,
decade.” but we will watch very carefully as the Government’s
On the steps of Downing Street in August last year, the plans become clearer. I give the Secretary of State my
Prime Minister claimed that he had a plan to fix the word: we will support positive changes that can generate
crisis in adult social care. I take on board the comments cross-party consensus, because local government and
by the Select Committee Chair, my hon. Friend the the communities we represent need that approach,
Member for Sheffield South East, about the need to but we will also robustly scrutinise and challenge the
find a resolution to this, because the crisis in social Government on finance, on regional disparities, on
care—both adult and children’s social care—is what is inequalities, on financial fairness and on need, because
dragging our local authorities towards the cliff edge. our communities expect nothing less.
Kevin Hollinrake: Yes, we need a resolution, but I 6.43 pm
think the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts)
said that we need a cross-party solution. The Select The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and
Committees came up jointly with a cross-party solution—a Local Government (Robert Jenrick): It is an honour to
social care premium. Will the hon. Gentleman commit close this debate, which has been characterised by many
the Opposition to supporting any Government move in impressive maiden speeches. They began with the speech of
that direction? my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (David Johnston),
who recalled his predecessor. It made me think back to
Andrew Gwynne: Of course, the effect of the general the first time I encountered Ed Vaizey, which was when
election is that the hon. Gentleman’s party is responsible I, as a, I guess, very young-looking new MP was sworn
for delivering on public policy. We will work with his in here, in front of the whole House, after Prime Minister’s
party to ensure that we do solve the social care crisis, questions; it was after a by-election. The House was very
989 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 990

silent and then there was a heckle from across the by Ofsted. They will also see a willingness to innovate
Chamber—it was Ed Vaizey saying, “Is he here on work and set teachers free to create new and exciting
experience?” Everyone laughed. However, I am delighted schools, such as the Michaela free school co-founded in
that on all sides of the House there are now far more London by my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham
MPs who are younger than I am. I was also struck (Suella Braverman).
by some of the superb maiden speeches that Members On both sides, we heard that further education colleges
gave, including those Members on both sides of the and quality apprenticeships matter. That is why we are
House who bring direct experience of education, whether providing a £400 million boost for education for 16 to
as teachers, school governors or having supported schools 19-year-olds next year and 20 new institutes of technology.
in other ways, such as my hon. Friends the Members for
Wantage and for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis).
I am sure all of them will be great contributors to Karin Smyth: I was just wondering where all the
debates in this House. women had gone from the Tory Benches. Maybe they
are off at a party somewhere else. On apprenticeships, I
With regard to my own Department, Members on am looking forward to chairing the all-party group on
both sides of the House bring direct experience of local apprenticeships with the hon. Member for Chichester
government: my hon. Friend the Member for Bury (Gillian Keegan), but I understand that there will not be
North (James Daly); the hon. Member for Luton South a dedicated apprenticeships Minister. That would be a
(Rachel Hopkins), following in her great family tradition; concern. I am a strong supporter of apprenticeships,
my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Paul Holmes); but we need to address what has gone wrong. It makes a
and my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom massive difference to my constituents and I wonder
Hunt), who has been involved in the mayoral combined whether the Government would like to address that.
authority in Cambridgeshire. I share and echo the comments
of the shadow Secretary of State in paying tribute to all Robert Jenrick: Absolutely. Unusually, in this
those, from all political parties, who contribute in the Government it is the Secretary of State himself who
democratic process as councillors and council officers has chosen to take on that responsibility as a sign
across the country. It was also a particular pleasure to that apprenticeships matter to this Government, as they
listen to the maiden speech of my constituency neighbour, have since 2010.
my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Tom Randall).
I enjoyed working with his predecessor, Vernon Coaker, We heard throughout the debate that we have a
and I very much look forward to working with my hon. special responsibility to support those with special
Friend in the future. educational needs. That is why we are funding local
government to provide those services with a 12% year-
As my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Sir Robert on-year increase.
Syms) said early on in the debate, we stood at the
general election on a platform of breaking the deadlock I shall now answer the points that relate to my
that was holding the country back. The election result has, Department. Last year we built more homes than we
without question, delivered that. It has enabled us to get have built for 30 years—241,000 new homes and 1.5 million
Brexit done and honour the outcome of the referendum. since 2010. We built more affordable homes per year on
It has probably contributed to breaking the deadlock in average than the previous Labour Government and
Northern Ireland, as referenced by the hon. Member more council houses were built last year than in 13 years
for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I am sure that is welcomed of the previous Labour Government put together. However,
by all of us across the House. It has provided certainty there is no room for complacency and we know there is
to businesses and individuals across the country, and it a great deal more to do. That, I hope, is set out in the
has enabled us to get on with delivering on the public’s ambitious legislative programme of the Queen’s Speech.
priorities: levelling up across the country and making We will take this forward in a number of ways—first,
Whitehall work for local communities. with further planning reforms. We have announced a
As my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary White Paper on planning reform, which I will introduce
said, and as we heard in numerous contributions from in the coming months. As my right hon. Friend the
across the House, the central role of high quality education Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) said, we
in ensuring that young people can fulfil their full potential need a fair planning system that allows new homes to be
has been very clear and is shared on a cross-party basis. built, encourages densification and gentle building upwards,
We heard about the importance of funding schools and ensures that homes are built in the right places with
properly. The Government are doing that, with every a planning inspectorate that listens to local communities
pupil in every school seeing an uplift and by providing a and is brownfield-first.
fair floor for all, beginning with £5,000 per pupil in
secondary schools. Robert Halfon: I am grateful for the towns fund, from
We also heard, again on both sides but perhaps more which Harlow can access up to £25 million. My right
on the Government side, that funding alone is not the hon. Friend talks about changing planning law. Will he
outcome. The outcome is better standards. Under this also look at changing permitted development rights, so
Government, 1.8 million more young people have been that we ensure that we have quality homes—not ghetto
in good or outstanding schools since 2010. That is homes—and that London councils do not use it to send
underpinned by outstanding teachers, such as the their most vulnerable families to my constituency?
one referenced by my hon. Friend the Member for
Stoke-on-Trent North. They have played a role in all Robert Jenrick: Absolutely. My right hon. Friend
our lives and, no doubt, in getting us here to this House. showed me some of those properties when we visited
We will repay that by ensuring that they have higher Harlow last year, and we will take forward reforms to
starting salaries and rigorous and transparent inspections permitted development rights in future.
991 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 992

[Robert Jenrick] In addition to the building safety Bill, we will bring

forward another Bill on fire safety sooner than that to
We will also invest more in infrastructure. We did that ensure that we act urgently on the recommendations of
in the last Parliament with our housing infrastructure the judge in the Grenfell inquiry. Again, I hope that
fund, and we have been very clear that more investment those Bills can command cross-party support. We will
in infrastructure is required, as we heard in numerous answer some of the questions raised by numerous Members
speeches, so that we build communities with the forethought on the position of leaseholders not only through publishing
of planned towns and cities such as Milton Keynes, a draft Bill shortly to outlaw leasehold for new homes
which we heard about in the maiden speech of my hon. and to reduce ground rents to a peppercorn, but by
Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt). listening to the recommendations of the Law Commission
and the Competition and Markets Authority to ensure
Layla Moran: The Secretary of State will know well
that leasehold works for everyone and is a fair and
that there are issues with South Oxfordshire District
sustainable system into the future.
Council that relate to the housing infrastructure fund
bid that we put in. Will he consider meeting me and Mr Betts: Will that include proposals to help existing
council leaders to ensure that we develop a plan to leaseholders as well as future leaseholders?
deliver that money and that infrastructure funding?
Robert Jenrick: I would be happy to meet the hon. Robert Jenrick: The draft Bill we intend to publish
Lady—in fact, I have written to her council leader shortly will be about the future. A second piece of
suggesting that we speak as soon as possible. legislation will follow, following the reports from the
We will also invest more in affordable housing. We know Law Commission and the CMA, which is the right way
that we cannot meet our objectives without more affordable to approach the task.
homes. The Government have built 450,000 so far and My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice
we intend to go further. We will be replacing our affordable and Howden (Mr Davis) and my hon. Friend the
homes programme with a new one and we have lifted Member for Thirsk and Malton, among others, in
the housing revenue account borrowing cap so that different ways spoke of levelling up. It is a challenge
councils across the country can build more homes. We that we have confronted as a country since the second
want better designed, safer, more beautiful homes, rooted world war and which Conservative Prime Ministers
in communities, and we are creating a design code so since Harold Macmillan have taken forward. It is a
that every community can have a right to demand difficult challenge that will involve closing the productivity
good-quality, well-designed homes that work for them. gaps and raising living standards sustainably across the
We are also going to boost home ownership, as a country, with more transport investment, education
good in itself, because we believe that a home is more and skills and full-fibre broadband. It will also mean
than four walls and a roof—it is about someone investing ensuring that the benefits of Brexit are felt across the
in their future and their family, and putting down roots country, such as through new free ports—the proposal
in a community. As my hon. Friend the Member for from my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich is duly
Poole said, it is about building an ownership society. noted—and the £3.6 billion towns fund, which is working
We will do that with our next step, on first homes, with in over 100 communities, including the constituency of
a 30% discount for local people buying homes in their the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn).
community, which was championed by my hon. Friend As I said, it will not be easy, but levelling up all parts of
the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). the country and making sure that prosperity and
We will also ensure that homes that we build in opportunity are shared by everybody is one of the
this country are safe. We have learnt a great deal following Government’s central missions.
the tragedy of Grenfell Tower and we know that our We will also publish a devolution White Paper showing
building safety regime needs urgent reform. We have how we can spread the devolution revolution we saw
two Bills in the Queen’s Speech, one of which is a under the last Conservative Government across more
building safety Bill, which will be the biggest change to parts of the country: more Mayors, more combined
our building safety regime in this country for 40 years. authorities and more opportunities for local authorities
That will be a complex piece of legislation that I hope—as that wish to reform to do so—I note the proposal from
the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson)—
the former Chair of the Housing, Communities and and by doing so to earn further autonomy and control
Local Government Committee said—will command cross- over public funds. We know that Mayors can work. In
party support so that we can build a robust system that that regard, we heard from the hon. Member for Bristol
lasts into the future. South (Karin Smyth). Incidentally, we are indeed taking
forward the western powerhouse, only we call it the
Kevin Hollinrake: On my right hon. Friend’s next step western gateway, as it will combine parts of Wales and
on homes—I appreciate his reference to me—it is an the west country. It has now been launched and I hope
excellent policy that will make home ownership much she will get behind it. There will then be routes to
more affordable for lots of local first-time buyers. Will devolution for great metropolitan areas and for non-
he consider blending it with Help to Buy to make it even metropolitan areas, and we will publish those proposals
more affordable and therefore even easier for people to shortly.
get on the housing ladder?
As the shadow Secretary of State said, we must ensure
Robert Jenrick: I will consider that a Budget bid and that local government, which provides so many important
pass it on to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. We services in all our lives, is properly resourced, and that is
will certainly blend it with things such as shared ownership why we are bringing forward the best settlement for
and reform that model to take out some abuses that we local government in a decade. This includes a 4.4% real-
have seen in recent years. terms funding increase, a £1 billion grant for social care
993 Debate on the Address 14 JANUARY 2020 994

and measures to place the sector on a sustainable financial HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld
footing ahead of the three-year settlement, which will Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House
come forward in the spending review and which I hope do now adjourn.—(Iain Stewart.)
will answer some of the critical questions we have heard
today, including on the future of social care. I take the 7 pm
shadow Secretary of State up on his offer to work on
that on a cross-party basis. Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and
Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): I am very grateful for the
In conclusion, one could not have listened to the opportunity once again to bring HMRC’s disastrous
fantastic maiden speeches today and failed to be optimistic proposals to close Cumbernauld tax office to the House’s
about the future. The gridlock is broken and the country attention. Let me begin by paying tribute to its workforce
is no longer going round in circles. We have a functioning for their dedicated service and thanking their representatives
majority Government, Brexit is being delivered, and in the Public and Commercial Services Union, who
now the task for this Government is to repay the trust have worked tirelessly on their behalf to make the case
the public have placed in us and get on and deliver on for keeping jobs in Cumbernauld.
the people’s priorities. That is exactly what we will do
and what is in the Queen’s Speech. In education, in If implemented, these proposals will be a huge blow
housing, in levelling up, in funding local government to the workers at HMRC Cumbernauld, many of whom
properly and in ensuring that public services are have given decades of service, and many of whom will
reformed and delivered, we will take forward the people’s not be able to transfer to the Glasgow office for a
priorities and get on and deliver for the people of this variety of reasons. If implemented, they will also be
country. a disaster for the whole town and community of
Cumbernauld. Finally, quite simply, they make no sense
6.58 pm from the point of view of taxpayers generally. These
are, of course, the workers who ensure the collection of
Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned—(Iain the taxes that are needed to fund our vital public
Stewart). services. Disrupting them, putting some of them out of
Debate to be resumed tomorrow. a job, reducing their capacity and moving them to more
expensive inner-city accommodation seems to serve a
dubious purpose, to put it mildly.
PETITION
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and
Traffic situation in Strathaven and safe Lesmahagow) (SNP): My hon. Friend is making an
walking routes to school excellent speech. A tax office in the centre of East Kilbride
is also due to be closed, although it has been a pivotal place
6.58 pm for tax collection in Scotland. This whole agenda goes
against the Government’s towns initiative. Moving jobs
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and from towns to cities is counter productive, and counteracts
Lesmahagow) (SNP): I rise to present this petition. what the Prime Minister set out in his agenda.
The petition states:
The petition of residents of East Kilbride, Strathaven and Stuart C. McDonald: My hon. Friend has made a
Lesmahagow, powerful point, and I shall say more about it later in my
Declares that the dangerous traffic situation in Strathaven speech. The experience so far of similar changes in
should be resolved; notes that this market town and conservation other parts of the United Kingdom seems to be that it is
area with a very long and special history is being damaged due to harmful to the collection of taxes, rather than helpful to
the speed of traffic through this town; further that the heavy the work that HMRC employees are trying to do.
traffic exacerbates problems of pollution, noise and vibration As some Members may know—my hon. Friend certainly
damage; further that narrow pavements and a lack of dedicated
parking at Western Overton Primary School increases the danger
does—the proposal to close the Cumbernauld tax office
for pedestrians, especially school children; and further that residents forms part of a massive programme of reform to the
have concerns about the mix of traffic which causes frustration HMRC estate, which has been given the title “Building
and damage, especially where there are concerns about a possible our future”. Members on both sides of the House—
safe walking route to schools in the Strathaven area. including, obviously, my hon. Friend—may have seen
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons similar offices close in their own constituencies, or may
urges the Government to press upon the South Lanarkshire be battling similar proposals.
Council to reduce the speed of traffic through the market town, The scale of the changes and cuts faced by HMRC
allow safe passage for school children and to resolve the parking
issues at local schools in the area.
has been extraordinary. When it was formed in 2005,
HMRC had 96,000 full-time equivalent members of
And the petitioners remain, etc.
staff in 593 offices; less than a decade later, staff numbers
[P002548] had fallen to below 60,000 based in fewer than 190 offices.
“Building our future” set out to close 137 of those
remaining offices, and to centralise even fewer workers
in just 13 large regional hubs with between 1,200 and
6,000 staff. It seems that HMRC will shed many thousand
more jobs during this process, with tens of thousands
having to move location.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): l commend my
hon. Friend for the campaigning work that he is doing
in his constituency. We often hear the Conservatives
995 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 14 JANUARY 2020 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 996

[David Linden] ask them to come to Cumbernauld and to meet us and

the staff. We got a typically bland response from HMRC,
talk about going after benefit claimants. Is it not the but at least it was a response, because all we got from
case that in shedding these HMRC jobs, they are not the Treasury was nothing at all. That sums up the total
going after people who should be paying their tax, but lack of interest that the Treasury has taken in the whole
focusing on the more vulnerable in society who are just issue of reform of HMRC’s estate and workforce.
trying to get on with it? Let us remember that these are not trifling changes.
We are talking about turning 190 offices into 13. Along
Stuart C. McDonald: I agree with my hon. Friend. As the way, thousands of jobs are being cut, and huge sums
I have said before and will say again, this is detrimental of money are being thrown at new buildings, refurbishments,
not only to the workforce and the town of Cumbernauld, relocation costs and all sorts of other expenses. Morale
but to the work that we require these people to do in and job satisfaction among the HMRC workforce
collecting the tax that we need to fund our public remains among the lowest in the civil service. Both the
services. Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit
Office have raised serious concerns with the programme,
It is also fair to say that “Building our future” has so it is no longer sufficient for Ministers to wash her
been the subject of huge controversy since its launch. hands of the issue and just leave HMRC to carry on
The National Audit Office and the Public Accounts regardless.
Committee, among others, have made very critical
comments. In Parliament, my party has devoted Opposition Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP):
day time to opposing tax office closures. There have My hon. Friend is setting out clearly the effect on his
been Backbench Business debates, one of which I was own constituency, and it is right and proper that he
able to secure and one that was secured by my hon. should. Does he agree that, at a time when the tax gap
Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Chris in the UK—the gap between the amount of tax that
Stephens), who chairs the PCS parliamentary group. ought to be collected and the amount that is collected—is
Numerous other Members on both sides of the House £35 billion, it would be appropriate for the Government
have tabled questions or secured Adjournment debates to weigh up the cost of the savings to HMRC in axing
on specific site closures. these jobs with the amount of tax that is increasingly
I make absolutely no apology for bringing this issue going to go uncollected?
to the House once again, because the “Building our
future” programme was flawed from the start. It remains Stuart C. McDonald: I agree wholeheartedly with my
flawed and, given the seismic changes that have happened hon. Friend. At the end of the day, this programme may
between its initial design and now, there are strong well end up being absolutely self-defeating for HMRC,
reasons to pause, to look at what has happened so far and it is the Government’s cost-cutting agenda that has
and to consider whether it is really still worth pursuing been the driver behind it. They need to take ownership
these plans. Serious issues have been thrown up even of what is going on.
where regional hubs have already opened. For example,
in Norwich, despite emphasis being placed on proximity First and foremost, the Government need to take
to universities for recruitment purposes, recruitment ownership of the implications of these plans for the
has apparently proved incredibly difficult. Not only are dedicated workforce who have built up considerable
many existing staff choosing not to make the switch to expertise over many years in Cumbernauld. The stark
the new hub, but the hoped-for recruitment of new truth is that jobs will be lost. Written parliamentary
graduates has not materialised, quite simply because answers confirm that the total capacity of the new
they have better options in the private sector. For all Glasgow financial district site is considerably smaller
these reasons, the Scottish National party manifesto than the number of staff at the sites that have been
again made the case for, and committed to, reconsidering closed to make way for it. In fact, we are talking about a
these closure proposals. maximum capacity of 3,000 at the new site compared
with a full-time equivalent workforce of 4,700 at the
My first call on the Government is simply for them to sites that are earmarked for closure.
take responsibility for what is going on. That in itself is
It seems that HMRC is relying on the fact that many
long overdue. In contrast to my colleagues, the Government
workers will be unable to make the transition because of
have been rather less keen on bringing this issue to the
personal circumstances. Remarkably, it has managed to
House for scrutiny and debate. Even when the original
pick a site in a part of Glasgow city centre that is
list of sites to be closed was decided, no announcement
unusually difficult for people in Cumbernauld to get to
was made to the House. That basically sums up how
within HMRC’s one-hour reasonable daily travel limit if
Ministers appear to see their role. Ministers hide behind
they are using public transport. Those workers who do
HMRC’s status. Too often in these debates and question
make the move will be out of pocket. It is true that some
sessions, the issue is simply palmed off as one for
reasonable daily travel costs will be met initially, but
HMRC to get on with. I recognise that Ministers cannot
that will not last for ever. It also refers to the cheapest
interfere in the day-to-day operation of tax collection,
option, which I know from speaking to staff will be
but that is not what this is about. These strategic decisions
totally impossible for some of them. We have to remember
will have an impact for decades to come.
that 57% of staff earn less than £20,000 a year. If, as has
I recently joined Jamie Hepburn MSP, PCS union been estimated, staff will have to spend, on average, an
reps and the leader of North Lanarkshire Council, additional £17 each week on travel to work, that will
Councillor Jim Logue, in writing to the Financial Secretary represent 5% of their take-home pay. It is a similar story
to the Treasury and the chief executive of HMRC to with childcare costs, because 55% of staff have childcare
make the case for retaining the site in Cumbernauld. We or other caring responsibilities. Additional travel time
997 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 14 JANUARY 2020 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 998

will see care costs rise by an average of £40 a week, been filled by private sector tenants in any event. That is
which is 12% of an employee’s take-home pay. After not the case in Cumbernauld where the site owner,
decades of service, those workers deserve better. Mapeley, is protecting its position in case HMRC fails
to renew the lease, but it is not protecting the position
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): My by seeking new people for the lease and creating new
hon. Friend is making an excellent case, but this is not jobs, but by knocking it down and seeking planning
just about the finances. At a time when we are so permission to build houses on the site. New housing is
concerned about climate change and are looking to needed, but not at the expense of around 1,200 good-quality
decarbonise where we can, the thought of additional jobs.
travel to a place of work should be a worry to us all.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): My hon.
Stuart C. McDonald: I agree wholeheartedly with my Friend is being generous with his time. I am incredibly
hon. Friend. disturbed by a lot of what he is saying, because I seem
to remember in 2014 that the presence of all these civil
Secondly, the Government must take responsibility service jobs at HMRC and, as we were discussing last
for the consequences of the proposed closure on the night, at the Department for International Development
town of Cumbernauld. It is fair to say that HMRC and site in East Kilbride was one of the strengths of the
the Government have failed to show one iota of interest Union. All those jobs were going to be at risk if Scotland
in the implications for the town and community. Earlier voted for independence. Has he noticed that all the
written answers sought to assure us that all the appropriate warnings about the risks of voting for independence—losing
impact assessments would be carried out, but they civil service jobs and economic chaos—are starting to
proved to be hollow assurances as the economic impact come true? Will he tell the House whether we voted for
assessment was never commissioned. independence?
Thankfully, after a little encouragement, North
Lanarkshire Council worked effectively with PCS to do Stuart C. McDonald: My hon. Friend makes a good
what the Government should have done and looked at point. It would not take too long to google a nice
the economic consequences for Cumbernauld. The picture of the Better Together campaign outside HMRC
assessment confirmed what we all could guess: local in Cumbernauld, where it was warned that all the jobs
shops and businesses benefit greatly from the footfall of could be retained only if we remained part of the
tax office workers spending money in the town centre United Kingdom. If the Government’s apparent new-found
adjacent to the tax office building. A conservative estimate enthusiasm for protecting and nurturing towns is genuine,
suggests an annual loss of almost £1 million at that is one strong reason why the Government should
supermarkets, local cafés and food outlets alone. That intervene and ensure that HMRC considers whether the
significant loss of footfall will have a severe impact on closure is compatible with other Government objectives.
the local economy. Of course, the other huge development since “Building
However, absolutely none of that has played any role our future” was first drafted is Brexit. The precise
in HMRC’s plans, and it has shown no interest in the impact that Brexit will have on HMRC’s work remains
impacts. If HMRC will not listen, the Government as clear as mud, but it clearly means more work. Trade
should. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, with the EEA, and even trade between the UK and
Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) mentioned Northern Ireland, will now have greater implications
earlier, the Government’s towns strategy, published last for HMRC. It has been acknowledged that significant
November, said that additional staffing will be required, and it should be
“for too long, the benefits of this unprecedented growth in many recognised that that need will not be temporary. It will
of our world-renowned cities has not been felt as strongly by therefore be useful to know the Government’s current
communities in our towns and rural areas… Successive Governments estimate of the number of additional HMRC workers
have often focused on cities as engines of economic growth.” required as a result of Brexit. how many have been
I largely agree with that, but a focus on rebalancing is recruited and, indeed, how many have been recruited in
exactly why the tax office ended up in Cumbernauld in Scotland. In short, it is clearly nonsense to think that
the first place. During the 1960s and 1970s, there was we should simply ignore these realities and allow HMRC
cross-party consensus not only on dispersing existing to press on as if nothing has happened. It is time to
civil service jobs from London to other parts of the pause and think again.
UK, but on the creation of new positions. It was against It is frustrating that the Cumbernauld site was in the
that background that Cumbernauld was selected for a running for selection as one of the 13 hubs. To almost
new accounts office in 1976, albeit that the opening was all intents and purposes, it meets the—albeit dubious—
later postponed until 1978. The office was expected to criteria used in the selection process. Cumbernauld is a
have a hugely positive impact on employment in the large site, with good access by train and motorway to
town, with most of the jobs being new and recruited the cities of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Stirling, to the
locally, and that is exactly what happened. Everyone graduate populations located there and to the airports
in Cumbernauld knows somebody employed in the at Edinburgh and Glasgow. Of course, it has the added
tax office. What a tragedy it is that, 40 years on, UK benefit of a pre-existing experienced and dedicated
Ministers are standing idly by as HMRC runs roughshod workforce. There is no sensible reason for not using the
over such policy goals. Cumbernauld site.
In reality, the “Building our future” programme seems We know from written answers that HMRC has the
to be doing the opposite of the Government’s stated option of extending the lease of the Cumbernauld
aim of renewing our towns. New offices are being premises. Surely it makes sense to do that now, even if at
located in prime inner-city locations in places where I first it is for the short to medium term while we revisit
have absolutely no doubt that the offices would have the longer-term strategy of HMRC.
999 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 14 JANUARY 2020 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 1000

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) rose— was looking for in selecting its hubs. Why can we not
persevere with Cumbernauld? What role do the economic
Mr Speaker: Order. An hon. Member cannot just implications for Cumbernauld have in the thinking of
walk in and intervene after the debate has started. I am HMRC and the Government?
very sympathetic to Mr Shannon, as he well knows, but
we have to try to stick to the rules of the House. Jesse Norman: Of course, HMRC was focusing on
the needs of its operational business and the wellbeing
Stuart C. McDonald: In a joint letter, PCS, Jamie of its staff. It went through a procedure for the whole
Hepburn MSP, Councillor Logue and I invited the series of potential locations, and it concluded that, on a
Financial Secretary and senior HMRC staff to meet us wide range of eight criteria designed to support that,
in Cumbernauld, and I repeat that invitation this evening. the move was justifiable and, indeed, required. It is fair
We are all desperate to work together to see HMRC retain to say that HMRC looked at the wellbeing of its staff
its presence in Cumbernauld, benefiting the workforce, and at the future of its business, which is as it should be.
the whole town and taxpayers generally.
If the Financial Secretary does not visit for that purpose, Stuart C. McDonald: The Public and Commercial
he will soon receive a different letter, one asking him to Services Union and employees would be distraught if I
come to discuss with us how the UK Government will did not simply point out that the staff themselves do
help to pick up the pieces for Cumbernauld after the not agree; the workers at HMRC Cumbernauld do not,
loss of its major employer and how he will properly for a minute, think that moving them to an inaccessible
support staff who are out of a job and out of pocket location in Glasgow city centre is remotely in their
because of the closure. I would far rather not have to interests. I do not see how HMRC can possibly defend
write that letter. that position.
I hope the Financial Secretary will listen and consider
Jesse Norman: Of course, in any relocation there will
for himself whether this seems like a reasonable way
be people who disagree with it, and that is to be anticipated.
forward, or he can agree with our argument that HMRC
As the hon. Gentleman will know, HMRC has an
in Cumbernauld has been working well and should
elaborate and established process—I will come to it—of
remain open for the years ahead.
working with staff and seeking to support them in
making the transition to a different working environment.
7.16 pm The point I was making was that they can expect a
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): significant improvement in the quality of the space that
I thank the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth they are working and thriving in, and this should be
and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald) for calling beneficial for them and for the Revenue if they are
this debate, following up on the Backbench Business allowed to do that. Of course HMRC will in turn
debate he secured a couple of years ago. benefit from bringing different skills and specialities
Mr Speaker, I greatly appreciated the unusual range together, and form a more connected and more technology-
of guttural noises that you displayed a few seconds ago enabled environment.
in relation to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim
Shannon). I think it is an attractive aspect of your Jim Shannon: Will the Minister give way?
speakership, if I may say so.
Jesse Norman: No, I will not. The hon. Gentleman
In November 2015, as hon. Members on both sides has absolutely no basis for coming in late to this debate
of the House will know, Her Majesty’s Revenue and in order to ask a question; I am a great fan of his and I
Customs announced a location strategy to support its have answered questions of his on many previous occasions,
work to create what is understood to be a world-class but I regard this as a discourtesy to the House. I am
tax authority. That, in turn, was part of the then happy to take any further interventions that other Members
Government’s long-term economic plan for prosperity may make.
across this country.
Since 2010, successive Governments have made Stuart C. McDonald: I sense that HMRC Cumbernauld
substantial investments to enable HMRC to do more to workers will be watching this debate and screaming at
tackle evasion and avoidance, and to improve compliance, their television sets. The Minister paints this rosy picture
while also becoming more digital and more skilled in of this office in Glasgow where they will all be able to
order to improve the services it offers to businesses and move around. First, as I said, 1,700 or so workers will
individuals. not be able to make that transition at all. Secondly, they
Changes to HMRC and its office estate are an important are all reasonably happy precisely where they are and
part of that transformation. As the hon. Member for they are not remotely impressed with what has been
Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East mentioned, offered to them in Glasgow city centre. Why does he not
before 2010 there was a wide sprawl of offices, varying speak directly with PCS and the representatives of the
in size and quality, across the UK. HMRC is seeking to staff, whom he seems to be talking about?
bring the estate towards a more consistent and better
integrated network of large, modern regional hubs, and Jesse Norman: I have no doubt that HMRC, which is
to do so in the interests of its workforce who rightly operationally responsible for this change and for the
deserve a modern workplace in which to work and management of its business, will have spoken very
thrive. closely with the relevant unions on this issue, as it has
been doing in other areas, too.
Stuart C. McDonald: I am grateful to the Minister for If I may, with your permission, Mr Speaker, I will
giving way so early. He might come on to this point, but continue to make some progress on my speech. In
Cumbernauld essentially met all the criteria that HMRC November 2015, HMRC announced that in the following
1001 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 14 JANUARY 2020 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 1002

10 years it would seek to bring its employees together in how the savings he has talked about and the reduction
13 regional offices based in locations where it already in staff can help mitigate and tackle the £35 billion tax
had a significant presence, such as Glasgow, which is gap that will inevitably grow with fewer staff ?
one of the two HMRC regional centres in Scotland.
The co-locating of teams across HMRC is designed to Jesse Norman: The hon. Lady rightly raises the tax
lead to increased collaboration and flexibility, making it gap. When expressed as an absolute number, £35 billion
easier for skills across a lot of teams to be shared and is a large amount of money. Some £7 billion or £8 billion
for teams to switch between communications channels of that sum is caused by people not filling the forms out
and subject areas in order to meet the evolving needs of correctly, and there are many other components to it.
taxpayers. HMRC recognises that the transition may As she will know, at 5.6% the tax gap is not only near to
not be easy and has put considerable support in place to its historic low in this country but low against international
help its workforce through these changes. The hon. comparators. It is key to see it as a percentage in the
Gentleman has mentioned that and I will address that context of the overall amount of money the Revenue
support in due course. collects. HMRC remains an extremely efficient tax collection
In Glasgow, the regional centre will be situated in the agency.
heart of the city at 1 Atlantic Square and is currently in It is important to stress that the strategy that HMRC
development. It will be home to some 2,600 HMRC has adopted is not just about cost savings or bricks and
staff, who will be moving from six offices around the mortar. The new office in Glasgow, as well as the other
region in order to fulfil a wide range of tax professional sites, will allow people to develop more fulfilling careers.
and operational roles, including in compliance and in There will be a wider variety of jobs and, therefore, of
large business relationships. career paths to senior roles, as a wider range of work
will be based in single sites. The judgment has been that
Dr Cameron: Does the Minister recognise, however, the current office in Cumbernauld does not provide the
that HMRC’s plans to move the hubs to city locations kind of space that HMRC wants for its staff; nor does
are counterproductive and undermine the Government’s HMRC judge it to be fit, over time, for a tax authority
own agenda to try to support development in towns? operating in the digital age. Modern buildings such as
The specialist expertise is already in the towns, so why the Glasgow regional centre will deliver a better working
are we moving the hubs to cities, against even the Prime environment and experience for HMRC’s workforce.
Minister’s aims of reinvigorating towns? Such buildings will increase HMRC’s attractiveness as
Jesse Norman: The hon. Lady is right to say that the an employer, enabling it to recruit and retain the next
Government take the needs of towns seriously. That is generation of skilled professionals.
why we have a towns fund, which, in turn, works with a
much wider spread of support that we are giving to cities. Stuart C. McDonald: Will the Minister give way?
Of course towns have their uses and functions, and
cities have theirs. HMRC is seeking to use the benefits of Jesse Norman: I have very little time, and I want to
the city: the capacity to agglomerate services and bring talk about the support that HMRC is giving to staff. As
people together, and give them proper communications I have said, HMRC will do all it can to retain the skills,
and technology support. Those are things from which knowledge and experience of the existing workforce
both HMRC and those staff will benefit. and minimise any redundancies. The vast majority of
I have taken a lot of interventions and I now have a existing employees are within reasonable daily travel of
limited amount of time, so I will make progress. HMRC a regional centre, specialist site or transitional site, and
has already opened three new regional centres in Croydon, that is part of the overall strategy. In 2015, HMRC
Bristol and Belfast, with staff planned to move to the estimated that 90% of its workforce would be able to
Edinburgh regional centre later this year. Construction move to one of the regional centres or complete their
is under way at all the remaining new locations, including careers in their current offices. HMRC expects that the
Cardiff, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Nottingham, figure will be close to that once all moves to regional
Birmingham and Stratford. centres or other locations have been completed.
In addition to the 13 regional centres, HMRC will For those who are currently based in Cumbernauld,
keep eight transitional sites open across the UK for the travel time from Cumbernauld to Glasgow city
several years to help retain key skills during the transition centre is generally between 45 and 55 minutes by car, or
period, as well as five specialist sites for work that cannot 30 minutes by train to Queen Street station. In the
be done elsewhere. For example, HMRC will retain locations that it is closing, HMRC has been proactive
Telford as a site for some of its specialist digital teams. and has sought to provide a range of support for staff.
Through this phased approach, HMRC will seek to In Cumbernauld, it has maintained continuous dialogue
minimise disruption to business operations. between staff and senior leaders. Local managers have
The overall programme will deliver savings to the received extra training to prepare and support them in
taxpayer of around £300 million up to 2025 and then that process. For some staff, HMRC is funding visits to
rising cash savings, estimated to be more than £90 million the locations of new offices, so that they can experience
by 2028. It also avoids additional costs of £75 million a the travel options that are available to them. As well as
year from 2021, when the current PFI contract with regular engagement through online forums and in person,
Mapeley, agreed by the last Labour Government, comes HMRC has supported local trade unions to ensure that
to an end. they can assist members and provide up-to-date information
in order to retain people.
Patricia Gibson: I am grateful to the Minister for Of course, HMRC recognises that individual employees
giving way as I know he has points that he wants to go have distinct and different personal circumstances, so it
on to make. Can he explain to me, and to the House, has put in place structured support to help those who
1003 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 14 JANUARY 2020 HMRC Tax Office: Cumbernauld 1004

[Jesse Norman] process, with tens of thousands of these conversations

having been held in HMRC over the last two years.
can move, as well as those who cannot. One year ahead With that in mind, I hope Members agree that what we
of any move, every staff member affected has the are proposing is a sane and sensible solution to the
opportunity to discuss their personal circumstances problem.
with their manager, to talk through any particular needs
that must be taken into account when making decisions
and any help that individuals may need—for instance, 7.30 pm
help with additional travel costs for up to the first House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order
five years. I understand that that is a tried-and-tested No. 9(7)).
1005 15 JANUARY 2020 1006

House of Commons I cannot think of anybody better in the House to take

forward that project. I am happy to commit to helping
her to do that and I know the Welsh Government will
Wednesday 15 January 2020 be doing the same, so fingers crossed; we will definitely
work together on our shared ambitions in that regard.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Shared Prosperity Fund

PRAYERS 2. Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): What recent

discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] the shared prosperity fund. [900126]

9. Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): What recent discussions

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS he has had with the Welsh Government on the UK
shared prosperity fund. [900133]
SELECTION
Ordered, 10. Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): What
That Sir Alan Campbell, Mike Freer, Rebecca Harris, Amanda recent discussions he has had with the Welsh Government
Milling, Jessica Morden, Iain Stewart, Mark Tami, Owen Thompson, on the UK shared prosperity fund. [900134]
and Bill Wiggin be members of the Committee of Selection until
the end of the current Parliament.—(Amanda Milling.)
The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): I have
already had productive discussions with the First Minister
and his colleagues. Only last week I met Jeremy Miles to
Oral Answers to Questions discuss the UK shared prosperity fund, and I am excited
about the opportunities that the fund will create to bind
together the whole United Kingdom, tackling inequality
WALES and deprivation across each of our four nations.

Peter Grant: Diolch yn fawr. The EU funding that

The Secretary of State was asked— comes to an end in 2020 has delivered more than
Welsh Language £2 billion of investment in Wales since 2014. This money
has been used according to priorities set in Wales, for
1. Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): What steps his Wales, by the Government of Wales. Can the Secretary
Department is taking to support the Welsh language. of State give an assurance that Wales will receive not a
[900125]
single penny less under the Government’s funding scheme,
and that the priorities for Wales will continue to be set
The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): My in Wales, by the people and the Parliament of Wales?
Department and I are 100% committed to supporting
the Welsh Government’s ambition of 1 million Welsh Simon Hart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for
speakers by 2050, as well as to increasing Welsh language strengthening the Union by coming here to support
services across Whitehall and supporting the growth Welsh questions, which is very much appreciated. I
of the Welsh language in Wales. I am proud that my hope that I can reassure him by describing the shared
constituency is home to S4C, and welcome ideas from prosperity fund as a good news story, because for the
all Members on ways we can promote the Welsh language. first time in 45 years, a substantial sum of money is
going to be distributed in Wales by Welsh politicians
Virginia Crosbie: I am a keen supporter of the language who are directly accountable to Welsh voters. That has
and a Welsh learner myself. [HON. MEMBERS: “Hear, not been the case for some time. The hon. Gentleman is
hear.”] Diolch yn fawr; thank you. Does the Minister quite right that the collaborative approach I take with
agree that the best way to support the language is the Welsh Government over the distribution of the fund
through economic prosperity, which means supporting should ensure that it goes to the places where it is most
jobs, skilled employment and projects such as Wylfa needed, and is not—as some might argue has been the
Newydd on Ynys Môn? case in the past—blown on vanity projects. The relevant
Minister in the Welsh Government is with me on this;
Simon Hart: May I start by congratulating my hon. we have a shared ambition to ensure that outcome, and
Friend on her fantastic election result? She has already to do so collaboratively and efficiently.
brought an energy and a fizz to her part of the world,
which will be appreciated across the House. I know that Chris Elmore: I am all for strengthening the Union,
her father is watching these proceedings from his as most Welsh politicians are. I am completely against
hospital bed, and he will be as proud as we are that she nationalism and all it stands for, but the reality is that I
is among us. am also in favour of supporting the devolution settlement.
On the Welsh language, I absolutely share my hon. This funding has always been controlled by the Assembly,
Friend’s recognition that a vibrant economy and a so can the Secretary of State confirm that he will rule
vibrant language go hand in hand. The language of out subverting the Welsh Government by funding local
Wales is one of the oldest in the world and we are government directly in Wales? Bypassing the Welsh
rightly proud of it—even those of us who are perhaps Government and the National Assembly for Wales will
not as fluent as others. On the question of Wylfa, do nothing to strengthen the Union.
1007 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1008

Simon Hart: The reassurance I can give is that nothing such thing as real friends, only sharks circling waiting
contained in the proposals for the shared prosperity for a sniff of blood”, but no such situation would
fund will in any way drive a coach and horses through describe our relationship. He has done a fantastic job
the devolution settlement. for Wales. He has boundless energy and I know that
Wales will benefit from that again.
Anna McMorrin: The Secretary of State answered the On my right hon. Friend’s comments about the shared
hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) by saying prosperity fund, I hope I can reassure him by saying
that there would be a “substantial” amount of money. that this is a reset of the meter of the relationship
Will he, though, confirm that there will not be a penny between the Welsh and the UK Governments. It is
less nor a power lost, as the First Minister of Wales put absolutely right that he highlights the priority that we
it, to Wales, and that spending decisions will in fact be should give to this, which is getting the money to the
taken where they should be—by the Welsh Government? right place in a timely way and in a way that is accountable
to Welsh voters as it never has been before.
Simon Hart: On the first part of the hon. Lady’s
question, our manifesto commitment was clear on that. Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con): Diolch yn fawr,
As for the second part, my discussions with Jeremy Mr Speaker. Under the Welsh Labour Government,
Miles so far have been very clear about taking a collaborative Wrexham has missed out on opportunities for the past
approach so that the UK and Welsh Governments, 20 years. Can the Secretary of State give assurances that
working together, ensure that this money gets to the Wrexham will now start to receive benefits from the shared
right place in a timely fashion. prosperity fund?
NickThomas-Symonds(Torfaen)(Lab):MayIcongratulate
Simon Hart: May I congratulate my hon. Friend too?
the Secretary of State on his new post? I also congratulate
It is going to be a day of congratulating new Members,
my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Monmouth
which is a happy place to be.
(David T. C. Davies), on his long-anticipated and—may
I say?—long-awaited promotion to the Front Bench. I hope—my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will
As Wales leaves the European Union, the Secretary confirm this in due course—that, as far is Wrexham is
of State will be aware, because we have heard it in the concerned, the answer is yes. As for growth deals, that is
questions so far, that there are deep concerns about the an ongoing and positive development for Wales on
continuation of structural and investment funding. I which further information will be made available as we
have to say that his answers to my hon. Friends have not proceed. It is absolutely right that my hon. Friend
been that reassuring so far. Can he clear up the uncertainty highlights the specifics for her particular part of Wales,
now with two unequivocal guarantees—not a penny and yes, we will certainly comply and co-operate with
lost, and the Welsh Government having complete control that.
of the funding?
Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): May I, too,
Simon Hart: On the hon. Gentleman’s first question— warmly welcome my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend
there are lots of double questions going on—the answer the Minister to their positions?
is yes. That was in the manifesto and we made it clear. The shared prosperity fund represents a unique
As for the second question, the Welsh Government do opportunity for all parts of Wales to benefit from
not even have complete control over the situation now, Brexit. Does my right hon. Friend therefore agree that it
so he is asking about something that is not even the is essential that in the design of the architecture of the
status quo. I think he should refer to his ministerial and fund, the priorities of local authorities and the interests
party colleague in Cardiff—Jeremy Miles, who I have of the people they serve should be properly reflected?
spoken to—who is perfectly adamant, and perfectly
content, that this should be a joint UK Government-Welsh Simon Hart: I thank my right hon. Friend for the
Government initiative. What the hon. Gentleman is advice that he has so generously given me over the years.
hinting at is actually contrary to the policy of his own It should be a source of encouragement that the early
party in Cardiff. conversations I have had with the relevant Ministers,
including the First Minister in Cardiff, suggest that they
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): May I warmly are as attuned as we are, or are certainly getting that
congratulate my right hon. and good Friend on his way, to the need to ensure that the shared prosperity
appointment as Secretary of State? fund money that will be benefiting Wales is targeted at
Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that the areas where it is most needed and recognise the
since 2000 more than £4 billion of European aid has arguments being made across all parts of Wales. There
been spent in Wales but communities have not yet felt is a public perception that this is always just about
the benefit of that money, and the prioritisation of that Cardiff, but this will be about more than just Cardiff,
spend by the Welsh Government has been brought into and it is my job and the job of the Welsh Government
question by many local authorities and businesses alike? to ensure that that is the case.
Does he agree that this is an opportunity to reset the
formula and reset the way in which money is distributed, 13. [900137] Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire)
and to enable Members of this House to have some (Con): Those on the Opposition Benches see the shared
influence on how it is spent? prosperity fund as primarily a constitutional issue, but
it is fundamentally an economic issue, and the previous
Simon Hart: May I, with your patience, Mr Speaker, rounds of European funding have failed in their
start by paying tribute to my right hon. Friend and objective of lifting Welsh GDP to EU average levels.
predecessor? There is a saying in politics: “There is no Does my right hon Friend, whom I strongly welcome to
1009 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1010

his position, agree that however we design the new shared Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), well.
prosperity fund and however we share the responsibility Given the average length of tenure of previous Wales
with the Welsh Government, we cannot repeat the mistakes Office Ministers, his first achievement will be to last
of the past? more than a few months. I understand that he is a
junior Whip as well, which may be even more challenging.
Simon Hart: I thank my right hon. Friend and west The Liberty Steel announcement is yet another blow
Walian neighbour for his question. The answer is yes. to the steel industry, following Tata Steel’s announcement
One of the reasons we are in this position—one of the about Orb. Our thoughts are with the steelworkers and
reasons the Brexit vote went the way it did in June 2016 their families at this very anxious time. I must commend
and the general election went the way it did in December my hon. Friends the Members for Newport East (Jessica
2019—is exactly the point he makes: people were beginning Morden) and for Newport West (Ruth Jones) for all the
to lose faith. They knew that there were substantial work they have done on this. I am sure that the Secretary
sums of money, but somehow it never quite reached the of State has heard Welsh Government Economy Minister
places it should. The new arrangement—the reset to Ken Skates ask the UK Government to intervene more
which I referred—will address exactly that point. directly to reduce energy prices. Will he use his voice in
Cabinet to make that call?
Steel Industry
Simon Hart: I thank the hon. Lady. I am sure the
3. Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): What recent whole House will want to extend its congratulations to
discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the her on becoming a grandmother this week. [HON. MEMBERS:
future of the steel industry in Wales. [900127] “Hear, hear.”] I hope she will not mind my mentioning
that for the public record.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The The answer to the hon. Lady’s question is, of course,
UK Government are committed to supporting a productive, that the UK Government made £53 million available in,
modern and vibrant steel industry in Wales. With that I think, 2018, by way of compensation for energy prices.
in mind, I have already had discussions with the Welsh The conversation I want to have is also with her colleagues
Government and unions. I plan to visit the steel industry in Cardiff—perhaps she can lead this herself—about
in Wales within the next few days, and I look forward to business rates, and where the Welsh Government can
my meeting later today with the hon. Member for help the industry in that regard as well. However, the
Newport East (Jessica Morden), who has initiated a shared ambition to make sure that there is a future for
meeting with other Labour colleagues to discuss the steel in Wales is absolute, and the hon. Lady can rely on
steel sector. the fact that I and my Cabinet colleagues will work to
ensure that.
Ruth Jones: We know now that Liberty Steel is cutting
72 jobs in Newport, and although it is based in the seat Christina Rees: My question was about energy. In
of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East other countries, large companies pay far less for their
(Jessica Morden), those job losses will affect people energy. All that Welsh steelworkers need is a fair deal.
across our city—east and west. The losses follow the Steel is a foundation industry, and this UK Government
disastrous decision to mothball the Orb steelworks at and this Secretary of State need to do far more. Will the
Christmas. The UK steel industry is disappearing before Secretary of State act now, decisively—or will he be just
our eyes, and it is happening on this Government’s a bystander in the decline of the vital steel industry in
watch. We can see with Flybe that this Government can Wales?
take steps to save jobs and industries when they want to,
so when will the Secretary of State sit down with his Simon Hart: The hon. Lady may have misheard me,
ministerial colleagues and agree a plan that will protect but I have already commented on the £53 million being
jobs, livelihoods and the steel industry across Newport, made available by way of compensation for energy
Wales and the rest of the UK? prices, and I restate what I said just now: one way in
which the Welsh Government could step in now, and
Simon Hart: I am pleased to say that that process is help significantly with the certainty around steel, is by
already happening. I am sitting down not only with my addressing the issue of business rates. It would be a
ministerial colleagues but with the hon. Lady’s ministerial powerful message if she and I, combined, could make
and parliamentary colleagues, as well as unions and that case to Welsh Government.
management, all in the space of a few days. I am
absolutely conscious of the huge impact, uncertainty Infrastructure
and worry that the current circumstances are resulting
in. I will say it again: it is our shared responsibility with 4. Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): What recent
the Welsh Government to steady the situation and discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on
rectify the position. There are a number of ways of the resilience of infrastructure in Wales. [900128]
doing that; energy prices is one, and business rates is
another, which we will look at closely to see how we can The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales
help. (David T. C. Davies): Last week I met Ken Skates, the
Minister for Economy and Transport, to discuss how
Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op): This is my first we can work together on infrastructure in Wales. I look
appearance at the Dispatch Box in 2020, so may I wish forward to a productive and collaborative relationship
all hon. and right hon. Members a happy new year? with Welsh Government, and with Members in all parts
I welcome the new Secretary of State to his place, and I of this House. In particular, I reaffirm this Government’s
wish the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. commitment to rebuilding the M4 relief road.
1011 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1012

Tonia Antoniazzi: The Secretary of State’s predecessor “er gwaetha’r hen Foris a’i griw;
long dodged giving answers to questions about the lack ry’n ni yma o hyd.”
of electrification further west than Cardiff. Will the [Translation: Despite Boris and his crew, we are still
Secretary of State, and the Minister, do better, and get here.]
Swansea and west Wales the investment that they deserve
by funding a more integrated system, such as a Swansea
Bay metro? Mr Speaker: Order. Minister, answer what you can
and we will have to move on.
David T. C. Davies: My predecessors felt—and I
share their view—that it would have been difficult to David T. C. Davies: I thank the right hon. Lady. The
justify spending hundreds of millions of pounds on north-south link has been talked about for years, and I
electrifying the line from Swansea to Cardiff, which look forward to seeing some costs on that. East-west
would not have delivered any decreases in journey times. links in both north and south Wales have finance available
So we put £5.7 billion into the Great Western main line, to them, and I very much hope that the Welsh Labour
£2.8 billion into the Great Western main line modernisation, Government will again consider the commitment to the
over £1.5 billion into the Wales and borders route—all M4 relief road. I congratulate Dafydd Iwan on that
investments that have benefited Welsh travellers. We fantastic song. As far as the Conservative party and this
look to continue to do that, and I would be delighted to Conservative Government are concerned, with hundreds
work with the hon. Lady to develop plans for further of millions of pounds going into growth deals for Wales,
rail improvements in west Wales. his other song, “I’r Gad”, springs to mind.

Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Diolch Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Has not the
yn fawr, Lefarydd. Dw innau hefyd yn croesawu’r whole point about infrastructure and the M4 been
Ysgrifennydd Gwladol newydd a’i Weinidog i’w seddi missed so far—unless I missed it during the singing—
ac yn gobeithio y cawn ni gydweithio efo nhw. [Translation: because of the fact that the Severn crossing is now free?
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I also welcome the new Secretary Is it not that point that will help Cardiff and Swansea?
of State and his Minister to their seats, and look forward
to working together.] David T. C. Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely
Wales currently benefits from EU funding to the tune right. My predecessor, who managed to get tolls on the
of £680 million a year, including many infrastructure Severn bridge scrapped, has done wonders for the south
projects—£4.4 million for Blaenau Ffestiniog, £3.4 million Wales economy. The Welsh Government must now match
for Tywyn, and £7.5 million for Llanbedr airfield, to the commitment shown by the UK Government, by
mention just a few in my constituency. But as we leave getting the M4 relief road built and continuing to
the EU, we sadly leave behind the principles that underpin support the south Wales economy through a good
such funding—principles whose objectives were to tackle transport link.
deprivation, poverty and inequality. The old political
adage says follow the money. Can the Minister and the Mid-Wales Growth Deal
new Secretary of State allay my fears that, after this
Tory Brexit, the money will not mainly find its way into
the constituencies presently coloured blue on the political 5. Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): What recent discussions
map of Wales? he has had with (a) the Welsh Government and (b) Welsh
local authorities on the mid-Wales growth deal. [900129]
David T. C. Davies: I ddechrau, a gaf I ddweud diolch
yn fawr iawn am y croeso? [Translation: First of all, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales
may I say thank you very much for the welcome?] Can I (David T. C. Davies): Over the past week I have held
assure the right hon. Lady that this Government are discussions with the Welsh Government’s Minister for
absolutely committed to ensuring that Wales does not Economy and Transport, Ken Skates, and I look forward
lose out by one penny as a result of Brexit. Indeed, as a to working collaboratively with our partners to discuss
result of the growth deals that will now be taking place the mid and west-Wales growth deal.
in all parts of Wales, we are going to see hundreds of
millions of pounds invested in the economy of Wales, Ben Lake: The Minister will be aware that people in
levelling up communities. Ceredigion and across mid-Wales are keen to see swift
progress on the growth deal. With that in mind, will he
Liz Saville Roberts: I am delighted to hear the Minister’s consider meeting groups and businesses in Ceredigion
commitment that Wales will not lose a single penny. We that are involved in some of those proposals, to see how
should be building the whole of our nation. One idea is we can get them implemented as soon as possible?
a railway from north to south, so that we no longer have
to travel to the neighbouring nation to go from one end David T. C. Davies: When I was invited to join the
to the other of our country. Government, one of the only things that might have
I hope that the Minister has had a chance to look at dissuaded me was that I was planning to visit Ceredigion
the iTunes charts, where Dafydd Iwan’s protest song with the Welsh Affairs Committee—I believe the hon.
“Yma o Hyd”—“We’re Still Here”—has been going Gentleman had arranged for us some whisky tasting
up the charts. It has reached No. 1 this week. It was and to see some cheese factories. I will therefore take his
originally, of course, released in the midst of Thatcher’s question as an invitation to visit Ceredigion. I hope it
relentless attacks on Wales, and it might be time to update will go on to the Wales Office, and I look forward very
the lyrics: much to accepting it—diolch yn fawr.
1013 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1014

North Wales Growth Deal Gill Furniss: Last Thursday, we received the devastating
news that more than 350 steel jobs will be lost in
6. Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con): What recent progress Sheffield, Rotherham and Newport—yet another blow
has been made on the development of the north Wales for steelworkers, their families and their communities.
growth deal. [900130] When will the Government bring forward a comprehensive
plan for the steel industry that tackles high energy costs
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales and business rates and ensures that steel is at the heart
(David T. C. Davies): Together with the Welsh Government of all infrastructure plans? Action is needed now. Will
and the leaders of the North Wales Economic Ambition the Prime Minister stay true to his word and repay the
Board, heads of terms for the north Wales growth deal trust of communities that voted for him only last month?
were signed in November 2019. The opportunities provided
by that deal are the latest example of the Government’s
commitment to levelling up communities across the The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Lady, and I can
United Kingdom. assure her that the Government are indeed embarking
on a plan to do everything we can to make sure steel
Robin Millar: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. made in this country has all the competitive advantages
In the past 20 years, the people of north Wales, and the we need. She makes some excellent points. In the particular
people of Aberconwy, have grown used to being overlooked case of Liberty Steel, I understand that whatever happens
and underfunded by a Cardiff-based, Labour-led Welsh —it is a commercial decision for that company—all
Government. It will not have escaped the attention of those affected will be offered an opportunity to remain
the House that seven of the nine MPs from north Wales within the GFG Alliance by joining a new company.
are now Conservatives. Does my hon. Friend agree that
that represents a new chapter for north Wales? Q2. [900186] Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds)
(Con): The Conservative manifesto promises in relation
David T. C. Davies: May I offer the warmest welcome to the roll-out of broadband and mobile phone signal
to my hon. Friend? This Government note that the are incredibly welcome, but does my right hon. Friend
people of north Wales appear to have rejected 20 years agree that rural constituencies like mine, wherever they
of Labour government, and have already begun to build are in the United Kingdom, should not be left behind?
an impressive piece of infrastructure—a political blue Does he agree that these vital technologies should be
wall that now stretches from Ynys Môn to Clwyd rolled out, and will he set a firm timetable for their
South. I look forward to seeing that political infrastructure roll-out?
followed up by physical infrastructure, as we release
hundreds of millions of pounds in the growth deals into
north Wales. The Prime Minister: Yes, the Cotswolds needs broadband
and the Cotswolds is going to get gigabit broadband.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): I welcome the That is why we are putting £5 billion into the roll-out of
Minister to his place. I hope he lasts longer than his gigabit broadband. My hon. Friend asks for a deadline
predecessors, and that I can meet him more than once and he will get it—2025.
about the north Wales growth deal—more than I did
any of his predecessors. May I ask him for more money, Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): May I just
because the money on offer is not enough? I also ask for put on record our pleasure at the return of the Northern
a strategic growth deal, not a series of pet projects Ireland Assembly and, hopefully, the restoration of the
across north Wales. peace process in Northern Ireland? I know there is a
David T. C. Davies: We have absolutely no intention statement coming on this after Prime Minister’s Question
of allowing the sort of pet projects to go ahead that Time.
we have seen money wasted on in previous years. All Will the Prime Minister let the British people know
growth deal projects will be rigorously scrutinised to why, after almost 10 years of Tory Government, patients
ensure value for money, but at the end of the day, if the are waiting longer for essential NHS care, whether it is
right hon. Gentleman wants to criticise the Government in A&Es, on waiting lists or for a GP appointment?
for putting hundreds of millions of pounds into the
north Wales economy, then I plead guilty and I am The Prime Minister: We are investing record sums
absolutely delighted to be a part of the Government into the NHS. Indeed, I think the House should be very
who are doing it. proud today that we are passing the NHS Funding Bill,
which will guarantee such funding not just this year but
PRIME MINISTER into the future.

The Prime Minister was asked— Jeremy Corbyn: Well, passing legislation that will
Engagements guarantee underfunding of the NHS, yes. The number
of patients waiting more than four hours in A&E is now
Q1. [900185] Gill Furniss (Sheffield, Brightside and at its highest on record for the second month in a row.
Hillsborough) (Lab): If he will list his official engagements We have had months of promises, but people need
for Wednesday 15 January. action. There probably is not a family in the United
Kingdom that has not been affected in some way by
The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): This morning I cancer, yet last year we saw one in four patients waiting
had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In more than two months for the start of their cancer
addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further treatment. How many more patients will face life-threatening
such meetings later today. delays because our NHS is understaffed and underfunded?
1015 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1016

The Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman Jeremy Corbyn: Well, I understand that another hospital
knows, there is massive demand on the NHS, which, as has been closed to pay for it. The question is: why would
he also knows, is doing a fantastic job, particularly in the Government need to put into law an inadequacy of
oncology, where tremendous progress has been made. funding for our national health service? Health professionals
He is right to signal the delays that people are facing. have said that the NHS needs more money than the
They are indeed unacceptable. That is why we are investing Government are saying in order to keep patients safe.
in 50,000 more nurses, that is why we are investing in It has now been almost three years since the Government
6,000 more GPs, and that is why this Government are promised a Green Paper on social care and seven months
investing record sums in the NHS. We will get those waiting since the Prime Minister stood on the steps of Downing
lists down. Street and said he had prepared a clear plan to fix the
crisis in social care. Well, what is the hold-up? Where is
Jeremy Corbyn: Twenty thousand of those 50,000 already the plan?
work for the NHS, actually, Mr Speaker.
Delays in cancer treatment can reduce a patient’s The Prime Minister: I am delighted by the right hon.
chance of survival. The target of 85% of patients being Gentleman’s constructive attitude, because as he knows,
seen within two months was last met four years ago, in we intend to begin cross-party talks to build a consensus.
December 2015. Action is needed urgently. I think there is a growing consensus in this country on
the need to tackle the issue of social care, so that
Last week, we heard of the heart-rending case of a everybody has dignity and security in their old age and
92-year-old RAF veteran in Leicester who had to go nobody has to sell their home to pay for the cost of their
through the indignity of waiting almost 12 hours on a care. We can do it, and we will do it. With the help and
hospital trolley because there were no beds available. I co-operation of the Labour party and other parties in
want the Government to apologise to him and many this House, we will go ahead with a fantastic plan for
others and to explain why, despite the extraordinary social care. I look forward to his support, but I point
efforts of NHS staff all over the country, over 2,000 patients out to him that it is thanks to the Conservatives’stewardship
had to wait more than 12 hours before they could get of the economy, and indeed the mandate of the people
into a hospital bed last month alone. that we have, that we are now able to tackle a problem
that was shirked not just by the Labour party, but
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is Governments for decades after decades. We are going to
right to highlight the case of the RAF veteran, and I do it now.
think everybody in this House will have every sympathy
for people who have a bad and unacceptable experience Jeremy Corbyn: I do not know if the Prime Minister
in the NHS. We all share that. On the other hand, I had a chance to read the Labour manifesto in the election,
would say that most people in this country—most patients but we made it very clear that we have a plan—a very
of the NHS—have a fantastic experience of our healthcare, clear one: free personal care, more funding and support
and we should pay tribute to our nurses and our staff. for carers. I am very happy to send him another copy of
The hospital he mentions, Leicester, is one of those our manifesto so he can read it.
that, as he knows, we are rebuilding under this programme,
The Prime Minister said many times that he is going
with 40 new hospitals and 20 upgrades under this
to put the NHS funding issue into law, but all this
Conservative Government.
gimmick means is even longer waiting lists, more delays
for cancer patients and more A&E departments bursting
Jeremy Corbyn: The A&E has already been rebuilt in at the seams, while patients continue to suffer while he
Leicester, actually, as I understand it. The problem is continues to provide excuses. If he is really committed
that the Prime Minister promised 40 hospitals. In reality, to fixing the crisis that his Government have created
it was 20 and then it became six. The issue of people over the last decade, he should end the empty rhetoric
waiting on trolleys is a very serious one. The number and back our proposals to give the NHS the funding it
doubled in December and it is now at the highest ever needs, rather than putting into law an insufficiency of
level on record. The Prime Minister promised to put funding. The NHS is our most precious national institution.
the Conservative party’s inadequate NHS funding Fund it properly so that everyone can rely on it—those
pledge into law. Can he explain why it is necessary to that cannot afford private healthcare.
cement into law a pledge that the Health Foundation
has said is The Prime Minister: I am delighted that the right hon.
“below the amount needed to maintain current standards of Gentleman is still fighting on the manifesto he submitted
care”? to the attention of the British people at the last election.
It was pretty clear what they thought of it and of the
The Prime Minister: It is only under this Conservative credibility of the promises he made. It was also clear
Government that we have the resources that will enable what they thought of what we were going to do. They
us to invest in our NHS, and it is because of our see that we are the party of the NHS and that it is this
stewardship of the economy, after the wreckage that Government who invest in hospitals, in schools, in policing
Labour left when it was in office, that we have been able andinbringingdowncrime.ThatisbecausetheGovernment’s
to make those colossal investments. I remind the right careful stewardship of the economy has led to record
hon. Gentleman that not only was it this Conservative employment and record low unemployment, which is
Government who rebuilt the A&E, as he correctly points what delivers the tax revenues that enable us to pay for
out, but it is this Conservative Government who will be it all. Whenever Labour are in office, they wreck the
rebuilding the entire hospital in Leicester. We are putting economy, make unemployment higher and make us less
more money into the NHS as a direct result of our able to pay for great public services. We are taking the
careful management of the economy. country forwards; they would take it backwards.
1017 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1018

Q3. [900187] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Despite the highest-taxed part of the UK. Its deficit is six times
the clear improvement in educational standards and the UK average. Maths and science in schools in Scotland,
funding, white working-class boys massively underperform unlike any other part of the United Kingdom, is going
at every stage of the education system compared with down in the PISA rankings. That is no fault of the pupils
their better-off peers. Given the exciting infrastructure of Scotland, by the way. It is the fault of the Government
projects on the horizon and the high-value apprenticeships of Scotland, under the SNP, who are not giving them
that will be unleashed, does my right hon. Friend agree the chances that they deserve because they are obsessed
that reforming the apprenticeship levy and investing in with breaking up the United Kingdom. Change the
apprenticeshipswillallowustoensurethatwhiteworking-class record!
boys climb the skills ladder of opportunity?
Q5. [900189] Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs)
The Prime Minister: Apprenticeships play a vital part (Con): Investment in superfast broadband is an excellent
in the progression of the kids my right hon. Friend is way of levelling up the whole United Kingdom, boosting
talking about, and it is right that we should follow his British business and reducing carbon emissions, but
advice—he has been on this for a while now—and can the Prime Minister reassure rural residents of
reform the apprenticeship levy. My right hon. Friend West Sussex, many of whom have little or no access to
the Secretary of State for Education will be updating broadband today, that the Government’s scheme to
the House in due course on our proposals. guarantee minimum broadband speeds is on track and
ready to be launched in March this year?
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): I
congratulate all the parties in Northern Ireland on The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks well for
reforming the Northern Ireland Executive. the interests of his constituents, and he is absolutely
right. As I said earlier to my hon. Friend the Member
The Prime Minister sent a letter to the First Minister
for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), of
of Scotland rejecting the democratic right of the people
course we are rolling out superfast broadband—gigabit
of Scotland to have a choice over their own future. This
broadband. We have put in £5 billion, the legislation is
was not a surprise: the Prime Minister is a democracy
on track, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has
denier. I say to the Prime Minister that, as his colleagues
given me every assurance that Arundel and South Downs
privately admit, this position is undemocratic, unacceptable
will be very well catered for.
and completely unsustainable. He has shown utter contempt
for Scottish democracy, for Scotland’s Parliament and
for Scotland’s people. Does he accept that, by ignoring Q4. [900188] Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Research
Scotland, by imposing Brexit and by his pursuance of published by Oxford University this week shows that
cruel and punishing policies, he is strengthening the our oceans are heating up at an alarming rate, that the
case for Scottish independence? process is accelerating, and that it will lead to more
incidents of extreme, catastrophic weather. The Government
are on track to miss most of their environmental goals
The Prime Minister: It was not only the right hon. in 2020, and that record looks set to get worse in future
Gentleman, who leads the SNP in this House, but Alex years. The Government make the right noises, but fail to
Salmond and his protégée, Nicola Sturgeon, who said come to the right conclusions. Will the Prime Minister
at the time of the referendum that it was a once-in-a- commit himself to legally enforceable targets, and give
generation event. He said it, they said it. They were the new Office for Environmental Protection powers to
right then. Why have they changed their minds? He is fine the Government if they fail to live up to their promises?
the denier of democracy. It is the Government who should be under scrutiny, not
the protesters who expose their shortcomings.
Ian Blackford: The Conservative party signed up to
the Smith commission, which recognised the right of The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right to
the people of Scotland to determine their own future. say that the new Office for Environmental Protection
That is the reality. will have powers to hold the Government to account,
The Prime Minister lives in a fantasy land, but people but let me draw his attention to the record of this
across Scotland know the reality of his broken Brexit Conservative Government. Under this Government, we
Britain. The truth is, the only union he is truly interested have seen carbon dioxide emissions fall by 42% from
in is his union with Donald Trump—a partnership that 1990 levels, despite a 75% increase in GDP. On some
threatens to sell off our precious national health service. days, most of our energy now comes from renewable
Only yesterday, the Prime Minister called for the sources. We will be leading the COP26 summit, where
replacement of the Iran nuclear deal with, as he put it, a we will introduce enforceable limits not just for this
“Trump agreement”. The public deserve the truth. What country, but for the whole world.
backroom deals are being done with Donald Trump?
Why is the Prime Minister putting our NHS at risk? Q7. [900191] Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I
Repeatedly during the election campaign, he promised congratulate my right hon. Friend on his endeavours
that the NHS was not for sale. Will he now commit to to get Brexit done, but, as he knows only too well,
supporting the SNP proposal for an NHS protection something else needs to be got done. In an exchange
Bill? Without that commitment, what price will he make with me on 25 July, he said that Southend would
us pay for his toxic Trump deal? become a city. Before all that happens, however, will he
join me in thanking the religious orders of Nazareth
The Prime Minister: Actually, the SNP welcomed our House in Southend for caring for vulnerable people for
statement on the JCPOA yesterday; but, seriously, this 147 years, and will he meet me and others to ensure
is the problem with the SNP. Scotland under the SNP is that its caring mission continues on that site?
1019 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1020

The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for The Prime Minister: We will go ahead and, as I said
everything that he does for Nazareth House. I saw the yesterday, I think that a good balance has been struck,
good work that it does when I was Mayor of London, in getting Stormont going again, between those who
and I am happy to support it. As for the “citification” of need truth and those who need certainty in the protection
Southend, it continues at a pace set by my hon. Friend. of our armed services. I want to reassure the House that
nothing in the agreement will stop us going ahead with
Q6. [900190] Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and legislation to ensure that no one who has served in our
Saddleworth) (Lab): There are 1,200 people living with armed forces suffers vexatious or unfair prosecution for
dementia in my constituency, and there are 850,000 cases that happened many years ago when no new
across the United Kingdom. Dementia is the leading evidence has been provided. We will legislate to ensure
cause of death in the UK today. Will the Prime Minister that that cannot happen.
commit himself to supporting the recommendations of
the report published by Alzheimer’s Research UK, and Q10. [900194] Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con):
the aim to find cures and new treatments for all forms of Staff at my local hospital, the George Eliot, have been
dementia? Will he also support the call from the Alzheimer’s praised by their bosses for the superhuman effort that
Society for dementia care to be fixed as a matter of they put in during the Christmas period, which was not
urgency? only their busiest on record but the fourth busiest across
the whole of the west midlands. Will the Prime Minister
The Prime Minister: I congratulate the hon. Lady on
join me in thanking them for the amazing work that
what she has done personally to support that campaign.
they do? Will he also update the House on the progress
She is absolutely right to stress its vital importance for
of the NHS workforce plan, which will be key to
the whole country. Dementia is one of the biggest
ensuring that hospitals such as the George Eliot are able
challenges that we face, which is why we are doubling
to attract and retain the inspirational people we all rely
funding. As my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary
on to deliver our healthcare services?
has said, we want to make a moon-shot effort to isolate
the causes of dementia, and to cure it if we possibly
can. The Prime Minister: I congratulate my hon. Friend
on everything that he is doing to campaign for the
Constitutional Reform George Eliot Hospital in his constituency, and I thank
the staff there for everything that they do. The people
Q8. [900192] Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) plan will be coming forward in the spring, but I fancy
(Con): What plans he has to reform the relationship that he already knows some of the details: 50,000 more
between the legislature, Executive and the judiciary. nurses, 6,000 more doctors in general practice and 6,000
more primary care professionals in general practice.
The Prime Minister: A constitution, democracy and Today, as he knows, the House is legislating to ensure
rights commission will be established to examine the that we guarantee record multi-year funding for our
broader aspects of the constitution and to develop NHS.
proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how
our democracy operates. Careful consideration is needed Q11. [900195] Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): My constituent,
on the composition and focus of the commission, and Rosanna, came to the UK as a Kurdish refugee fleeing
further announcements will be made in due course. persecution and human rights abuses committed by
Turkish-backed fighters in Syria. Her family remain in
Sir Desmond Swayne: Will my right hon. Friend let the area, and she lives in daily fear for their lives. There
bygones be top priority? have been multiple reports of human rights abuses
against Kurdish civilians in Syria, including reports that
The Prime Minister: I can tell my right hon. Friend
Turkish forces used white phosphorus against children.
that our independent courts and legal system are admired
Will the Prime Minister join me in condemning the
around the world. We will continue to ensure that
human rights abuses committed by Turkish forces against
judicial review is available to protect the rights of individuals
Kurdish civilians in northern Syria, and what will his
against an overbearing state while ensuring that it is not
Government do to prevent further atrocities?
abused to conduct politics by another means or to create
needless delays.
The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady knows, we
Engagements have raised our concerns about the operation in northern
Syria with the Turkish Government and with President
Q9. [900193] Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab): I Erdoğan several times. We certainly deplore any abuse
congratulate the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State of human rights and the suffering that she has identified.
for Northern Ireland and all the parties in Northern May I make a proposal to the hon. Lady? I would be
Ireland on the re-establishment of the Assembly. The happy to look at the details of the case she has raised
press were briefed last year that the Prime Minister was myself, because I am deeply concerned about what is
going to bring an end to all ongoing investigations from happening.
the conflict, and he said on Monday that he would not
support vexatious claims when there was no new evidence. Q13. [900197] Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): As
However, the Stormont agreement includes the Historical the Prime Minister knows only too well, Britain is a
Investigations Unit, and the point of all the ongoing nation of animal lovers, and leaving the European
investigations is that the original evidence has never Union and decoupling from its lesser standards will
been properly investigated, so will the Prime Minister mean that we can lead the world in animal welfare. Will
tell us today, yes or no, whether he now supports the he commit the Government to making that their utmost
investigation of every single outstanding claim? priority in the months and years ahead?
1021 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1022

The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed. I thank my hon. The Prime Minister: I will be commemorating Holocaust
Friend for everything he does to promote and protect Memorial Day along with my hon. Friend and others.
animal welfare. This Government brought in the toughest As he knows, this Government and this House—people
ivory ban in the world, and we are bringing in new laws across the House—want to do absolutely everything we
on animal sentience and to cut the illegal smuggling of can to stamp out the resurgence of antisemitism. As
puppies and dogs. As we come out of the EU, we will of someone who is now 55 years old, I find it absolutely
course be able to ban the live shipment of animals, incredible that antisemitism is rising again in this country
which has been a disgrace for so long and against which in the 21st century. It is a disgrace, and we must stamp
the British people have campaigned. The Labour party, it out.
however, is still trying to work out whether it wants to
rejoin the EU or stay in the customs union and the Q15. [900199] Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): The seasonal
single market, making any such reform of the protection agricultural workers scheme affords a limit of 10,000
of animal welfare impossible. It is time that Labour temporary visas for agricultural workers to come and
made up its mind. work in the UK in support of food production. Given
that my constituency alone requires 4,000 and neighbouring
Q12. [900196] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): constituencies a similar amount, will the Prime Minister
Will the Prime Minister support Tees MPs and the concede that 10,000 is clearly not enough even for
Mayor in opposing the dumping of nuclear waste at Tayside, much less for Scotland or the rest of the UK?
Port Clarence in my constituency? Will he therefore instruct the Home Secretary to review
the situation in support of the National Farmers Union
The Prime Minister: I am happy to look at that campaign of Scotland and our whole agricultural sector and
and will write to the hon. Gentleman in due course. commission that review to look upwards to a limit that
will support the actual operational requirements of
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): agriculture in our country?
Given the Prime Minister’s post-Brexit vision for an
outward-looking, global Britain and given Africa’s huge The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an
potential for trade and investment, will he update the important point. We have doubled the scheme and will
House on the Government’s plans for next week’s ensure that not only the Scottish agriculture sector, but
UK-African investment summit? the agriculture sector of the entire country has access to
the seasonal workforce it needs. That is why we are
The Prime Minister: Yes. I am grateful to my hon. introducing a points-based immigration system that
Friend, who has followed such matters with great interest will enable this country to get the skills that it requires.
over many years. The summit on 20 January in this
country will be a chance to show people not only in the Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): Child sexual
UK, but around the world, particularly in Africa, our abuse is not a thing of the past in this country. Over
huge commitment to Africa, our massive investments in 4,000 offences of online child abuse were recorded by
Africa, and the massive opportunities to strengthen our the police last year. Organisations such as Facebook
long-standing ties, bonds and commercial relationships. and Instagram find it easy to analyse our online shopping
habits but less easy to keep children safe. Can my right
Q14. [900198] Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and hon. Friend say how the Government will continue to
West Fife) (SNP): The writer and broadcaster Muriel make it their priority to protect children from sexual
Gray said last week that the end of the Erasmus scheme abuse online?
“is an utter disaster, academically, culturally and socially. Politicians
have just voted to make our young people more insular, narrow The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend raises a
and parochial. Heartbroken.” subject of massive interest to the House and to the
What would the Prime Minister say to 2014 no voters whole country, and we are indeed very concerned about
like Muriel who thought that the future of Scottish what is happening online. The Cabinet discussed it
students was safe in the hands of a British Prime yesterday, and the online harms White Paper sets out
Minister? our plans to make companies more responsible. We will
be taking further action in the near future to stamp out
The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman this vice.
is talking through the back of his neck. There is no
threat to the Erasmus scheme, and we will continue to Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): I
participate in it. UK students will continue to be able to thank all those involved in the important progress in
enjoy the benefits of exchanges with our European Northern Ireland.
friends and partners, just as they will be able to continue When my mother was widowed with three young
to come to this country. children, bereaved families received small payments until
the youngest child left school. In our case that would
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): At the end of have meant payments for 14 years, except my mother
this month, on the 75th anniversary of the liberation of died too early. The duration of the payments was reduced
Auschwitz, the nation will come together once again to in 2017, and a new bereavement support payment was
mark Holocaust Memorial Day. The theme for this year paid for only 18 months. Many of us feel that is far too
is “Stand Together”. Does my right hon. Friend agree short. Will the Prime Minister deliver on his Government’s
with the Holocaust Educational Trust, which says that, promise to review the new bereavement support payment,
welcome though they are, signatures in books are not as and will he meet me and charities helping such families
valuable as action? Will he commit to more action to to discuss how we can better care for bereaved parents
stamp out antisemitism and all intolerance in this country? and their children?
1023 Oral Answers 15 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1024

The Prime Minister: Yes. I know this is an issue that is Several hon. Members rose—
very close to the right hon. Gentleman’s heart, and it is
absolutely right that we should provide people with Mr Speaker: We have to move on.
easily accessible support following their bereavement.
I will indeed commit to meeting him.
1025 15 JANUARY 2020 Points of Order 1026

Points of Order Mr Speaker: That’s great. The matter the hon. Lady
raises is not a point of order on which the Chair has
responsibilities. I am sure she knows that there are other
12.31 pm ways in which to pursue this matter, and I am sure she
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): On a point of order, will do so.
Mr Speaker. You will have noticed that it has become
even more difficult to secure a seat on the Government Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con): On a point of order,
side of the House following the general election, which Mr Speaker. Many of my constituents and their families
reinforces the point I tried to raise in the last Parliament have given money to a charity called St Margaret’s
through a letter to the then Chair of the Procedure Hospice on the basis that it would spend that money on
Committee on the need to take part in Prayers in order an in-patient unit in Yeovil, but it has closed that unit.
to secure a seat. Unfortunately, the Charity Commission investigation
I no longer have a relationship with God in a way that that I helped to get under way was not able to prove
would be recognised by many, but those of us who do “bad faith”. What avenues are open to me to engage
not have faith, or who subscribe to a faith other than with Ministers to examine the way in which the Charity
the established Church, are required to take part in Commission legal frameworks operate to make sure
Prayers in order to secure a place. There is the possibility that such potential cases of mis-selling do not go
of placing a pink card with “Committee” written on it, unpunished in the future?
but today the Doorkeepers, because no Committees
have yet formed, rightly declined to make a pink card Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Member for giving me
available to me. notice of the point of order. He has certainly got it on
Mr Speaker, for those of us who do not want to take the record. I am sure that the concerns will have been
part in Prayers and who do not want to have to sit heard by those on the Treasury Bench and somebody
through them to secure a place, could you ask the will take up the issue.
Doorkeepers to make pink cards available in advance of
the Committees being formed? Could you also ask the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): On a point of order,
Procedure Committee to look again at the issue in this Mr Speaker. I know that Big Ben is in the news at the
Parliament so that those of us who find it uncomfortable moment, but may I ask you to make sure that when Big
are not placed in this position? Ben opens up to the public, members of the public and
constituents will not be charged for climbing up to the
Mr Speaker: First, I have sympathy with the hon. top to see Big Ben?
Gentleman; I know what it was like in 1997. What I
would say is that the pink card system is something the
House has chosen to do when Committees are sitting, Mr Speaker: The House will look into that when we
but Committees are not sitting and I will not instruct get to the appropriate date. I wish I could give the right
the Doorkeepers to do something against the procedure hon. Gentleman the exact date, but I am sure we will
of this House. He is quite right: I think the matter needs have a discussion before it.
to be taken up with the Procedure Committee, and I am
sure he will continue to do so. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP):
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will more than
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): On a point of order, likely be aware of the mistake made during Prime
Mr Speaker. I apologise for not being able to give you Minister questions by the Leader of the Opposition,
more notice of this. when he indicated that there would be a statement after
It has come to light that a newly elected Member of PMQs about the Northern Ireland issue. I understand
this House has misled the press about his involvement that there will be no such statement. Perhaps you could
in an exploitative and demeaning website called sugar- confirm that, Mr Speaker, and also how Members might
daddy.net. The involvement of the hon. Member for get elaboration and clarification on this in this House,
Bridgend (Dr Wallis) was highlighted following press particularly on the financial settlement that followed
reports about complaints to Bridgend trading standards. last week’s agreement, so that we can ask questions
He denied links to the website on the record, but about that.
Companies House records clearly contradict that statement.
Information that I have received from a former employee Mr Speaker: In fairness to the Leader of the Opposition,
of his also contradicts this statement. I think he wants to come in on that.
At a time when public trust in politicians is already
damaged, Mr Speaker, can you provide guidance on
whether the House and, more importantly, the people Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab) Thank you,
of Bridgend can expect an apology from the hon. Mr Speaker. I am sorry if I inadvertently misled the
Member, to go some way towards making up for this House. I had been led to believe that there was going to
appalling behaviour? be a statement today, which is why I made the reference
to it. I must say that I am a bit surprised that there has
Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me not been a statement yet on something of such importance
notice of this question and the point she wanted to as the reopening of Stormont in Northern Ireland.
raise. I hope she mentioned to the hon. Member for
Bridgend that it was going to be raised. Mr Speaker: I am sure that as soon as a statement is
to be made the House will know and I will ensure that
Tonia Antoniazzi indicated assent. Members are aware of it.
1027 15 JANUARY 2020 1028

BILL PRESENTED Debate on the Address

NHS FUNDING BILL
[4TH DAY]
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Orders Nos. 50
Debate resumed (Order, 14 January).
and 57)
Question again proposed,
Secretary Matt Hancock, supported by the Prime
Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:
Robert Jenrick, Secretary Thérèse Coffey, Secretary Most Gracious Sovereign,
Gavin Williamson and Edward Argar, presented a Bill We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons
to make provision regarding the funding of the health of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in
service in England in respect of each financial year until Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to
the financial year that ends with 31 March 2024. Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has
addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time
tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 6) with explanatory
notes (Bill 6-EN). A Green Industrial Revolution
12.37 pm
The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial
Strategy (Andrea Leadsom): May I start by congratulating
you on the superb way you have taken over the speakership,
Mr Speaker? The atmosphere in the Chamber demonstrates
the dignity and respect that we all want to see, and I
commend you and your Deputies for the leadership you
are showing.
Speaking of leadership, I wish the hon. Member for
Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey) all the best in
her party’s leadership contest. It takes courage to put
oneself forward, and I commend her for her service.
Also on leadership, there is one woman—the first
ever female Conservative leader—who definitely deserves
10 out of 10: Margaret Thatcher. Just over 30 years ago,
she became the very first global leader to warn of the
dangers of climate change at the United Nations, saying:
“It is mankind and his activities which are changing the
environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways.”
She predicted that
“change in future is likely to be more fundamental and more
widespread than anything we have known hitherto.”
How right she was.
Mr Speaker, you recently called the Australian wildfires
“a wake-up call for the world.”—[Official Report, 7 January 2020;
Vol. 669, c. 235.]
I agree. From wildfires in Australia to flooding in
Indonesia and record temperatures across the world,
the impacts of climate change are in the here and now.
People throughout the UK and around the world are
calling for us to act, and we are doing just that. Just as
the UK has led the past 30 years of climate action, we
will lead the next 30 years, seizing the opportunities of
the green industrial revolution.
Since Margaret Thatcher made that speech in November
1989, the UK can be proud of its record of action. Since
1990, we have cut our emissions by 42% while growing
our economy by 73%.

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the

Secretary of State give way on that point?

Andrea Leadsom: In a moment.

Since 2000, we have decarbonised more quickly
than any other G20 country. Since 2010, we have
quadrupled our electricity generation from renewables,
including through the installation of 99% of the UK’s
solar capacity.
1029 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1030

Caroline Lucas rose— Prime Ministers. We can all be proud that no other
country in the world has more offshore wind than the
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP) rose— UK, with a third of global capacity off our coastline.
This is creating thousands of future-proof, planet-saving,
Andrea Leadsom: In 2017, low-carbon fuels produced profit-making jobs, as well as skills investment all around
more electricity than fossil fuels for the first time, and in the United Kingdom.
that year we also saw the first coal-free day for a Many of my new, true blue hon. Friends have green-collar
century, followed in 2019 by the first coal-free week and jobs in their constituencies. The constituency of Sedgefield
coal-free fortnight. Building on the world’s first climate makes underwater-cable protection systems that are
change Act, last year we became the world’s first major exported all over the world. Great Grimsby leads the
economy to legislate to end our contribution to climate world in offshore wind operations and maintenance,
change altogether by 2050. while in Blyth Valley, where I was proud to pay a visit to
support our excellent new colleague my hon. Friend the
Alan Brown: We obviously welcome some of the Member for Blyth Valley (Ian Levy) during the general
things that the Secretary of State has outlined, but on election campaign, our offshore renewable energy catapult
the net zero target that she just outlined, Lord Deben, recently tested the world’s longest offshore wind turbine
the chair of the Committee on Climate Change, said in blade. At over 100 metres, it would, if we stood it next
his covering letter to an update report that to Parliament, be taller than Big Ben.
“policy ambition and implementation now fall well short of what
is required” Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): The Secretary
of State talks about offshore wind, but does she agree
to achieve the target of net zero by 2050. Is the Secretary
that this Government have effectively banned onshore
of State going to address that in her speech?
wind, which is the most tried and tested of all forms of
renewable energy technology? Will she commit to bringing
Andrea Leadsom: I will indeed address it, and I can that technology back across all parts of the UK?
also tell the hon. Gentleman that the Government have
taken the advice of the Committee on Climate Change Andrea Leadsom: What I can say to the hon. Lady is
in setting our legally binding commitments to net zero that onshore wind produces electricity for 10 million
by 2050. Throughout the year, we will set out precisely homes in the United Kingdom. We are promoting offshore
how we think we can achieve that. wind as the most effective way to increase our power
generation from renewable technology. It is a huge
Caroline Lucas: The Secretary of State will know that success story for the United Kingdom and something of
the Government are off track when it comes to the which we can be proud. She will be aware that the
fourth and fifth carbon budgets, but I wish to take her Conservatives are committed to producing 40 GW from
up on the constant repetition from the Government. offshore wind by 2030.
She says that greenhouse gas emissions have fallen by
42% since 1990, but she knows that if we calculated Janet Daby: The Government’s policies are not
consumption-based emissions and factored that in, our sufficiently ambitious to meet their own climate change
emissions have actually fallen by only 10%. Does she targets. Does she agree that according to the Government’s
agree that we need a common understanding of what is official advisers, the Committee on Climate Change, the
facing us? If she keeps using numbers in a slightly UK is even off its own climate change target of an 80%
misleading way, we are not going to get to where we reduction in emissions by 2050?
need to be by getting our emissions down.
Andrea Leadsom: As I said in answer to the hon.
Andrea Leadsom: On the one hand, the hon. Lady is Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown),
absolutely right: the carbon emissions figures for the we work very closely with the Committee on Climate
United Kingdom do not take into account our consumption Change. Our target of net zero by 2050 has been set on
emissions or, indeed, our contribution to the reduction the basis of its recommendations so that we can grow
of carbon emissions around the world—both are important our economy, sustain our future and contribute to
points. On the other hand, I would take issue with her tackling global climate change in a way that is sustainable
from a philosophical point of view, because in order to for the UK, with the creation of green growth, so I am
measure progress, we need to have measurements, so it confident in that regard. We will bring forward more
is incredibly important to talk about our UK territorial measures throughout the year to help us to meet that
emissions at the same time. I look forward to working target of net zero.
with the hon. Lady constructively, as she and I have
done previously on a number of occasions, to make the Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): My right hon. Friend
UK’s ambition to lead the world in tackling climate is being very generous in giving way. She mentioned the
change a reality in the run-up to COP26. cooling towers coming down. Was she aware that the
four cooling towers of Ironbridge power station came
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): Will the Secretary down during the course of the general election, and that
of State give way? one of the companies interested in that industrial brownfield
land is one of the leading companies involved in driverless
vehicles? If the company is successful, I hope that she
Andrea Leadsom: I will make some progress and give will come and open the factory.
way again in a moment.
As the cooling towers have come down, wind turbines Andrea Leadsom: My right hon. Friend might be
are going up in their thousands, with offshore wind setting up a bit of contest, because I think that my right
capacity increasing by more than 500% under Conservative hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, who is
1031 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1032

[Andrea Leadsom] Andrea Leadsom: I will make more progress before

giving way again.
sitting next to me on the Front Bench, will be fighting Crucial to this debate is the UK’s global leadership.
me for that honour. None the less, my right hon. Friend The UK contributes only about 1% of global emissions,
the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) makes a really and that figure is falling. We cannot solve the challenge
good point about how, particularly in some of our areas of global climate change just by doing the right thing at
of heavy industry, the fossil fuels of yesterday are giving home, so we are using our strength to help to transform
way to the green future that we all want. He gives us a the world, from doubling our international climate finance
fantastic example of the work that is going on. contribution to nearly £12 billion to using our £1 billion
We have made great progress, but there is still much Ayrton fund to support the world’s most vulnerable—for
more to do. Our challenge now is to ramp up and scale example, by designing clean stoves for the billions who
up successes such as offshore wind, providing new sources rely on firewood. In 10 months’ time, COP26 in the
of pride and prosperity across our United Kingdom. fantastic UK city of Glasgow will be a seminal moment
In the first industrial revolution, our pioneers from for climate action, as well as a massive opportunity for
Scotland to Cornwall forged their own path, and in so British business—a giant global shop window for the
doing they became the envy of the world. James Watt’s UK’s clean tech prowess, with countries across the
Prussian rivals travelled hundreds of miles to sneak a world heading home with their pockets crammed full of
glimpse of his steam engines in Birmingham. Richard British ideas, technology and expertise.
Trevithick travelled as far as Peru to personally oversee
his engines. Today, like them, we must be the first Mr Dhesi: The Secretary of State mentioned electric
movers, not the last to act. From creating supply chains vehicles and charging points, and Slough Borough Council,
for electric vehicles to decarbonising our industrial in my constituency, is leading the way in Berkshire.
clusters and designing low-carbon buildings, the Although we gratefully receive platitudes regarding the
opportunities of net zero are immense. In 2020, the first good work of local authorities, what measures will the
year of a new decade of decarbonisation, we must seize Government put in place to support excellent councils
those opportunities. financially, in addition to those mere platitudes?

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Secretary of Andrea Leadsom: There are far too many initiatives
State has outlined a number of important stats. Local for me to talk about now at the Dispatch Box, but one
councils such as mine—Ards and North Down—are example is the £1 billion that was recently announced
specifically involved in achieving climate change standards for electric charging infrastructure. If the hon. Gentleman
and environmental targets. Will she consider implementing writes to me, I shall send him a full submission on the
a reward system for councils that are specifically involved subject.
in education and setting targets for them to achieve? If
we do that, we may encourage councils to do even more. Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
(LD): What the Secretary of State says about electric
vehicles is absolutely right and I applaud it. My vast
Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Gentleman makes a very constituency comprises 5,752 sq km and has 18 charging
good suggestion. It is clear that central Government points, so that is a move in the right direction. My
will not be the only actor in spending taxpayers’ money point, however, is that electric cars are expensive—more
and driving every bit of innovation; they will be hand in than most people can afford. Does the right hon. Lady
glove with local civic leaders and, really importantly, agree that a tax break—perhaps through the PAYE system
the private sector. Government must set the direction —should be considered as a way to encourage people to
and provide incentives, and then let others take the buy electric cars?
mission forward.
Andrea Leadsom: My right hon. Friend the Transport
Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): My Secretary is sitting right next to me, and he and I work
right hon. Friend rightly highlights Cornwall’s history closely on all sorts of incentives for people to move
in new technologies. Is she aware that large deposits of away from fossil fuels and toward decarbonisation. Of
lithium have been identified in Cornwall? That has the course, as the hon. Gentleman knows, transport is a key
potential to put Cornwall at the forefront of technology target area and we will talk more about it later.
once again and to revive our precious mineral extraction
industry. Will she ensure that her Department gives that
Several hon. Members rose—
fledgling industry all the support it needs to thrive?
Andrea Leadsom: I will make more progress before I
Andrea Leadsom: My hon. Friend is a great champion give way again.
for his constituency and for Cornwall more widely. In
many ways, Cornwall is playing a major role in our From fighting climate change across the world to
moves toward net zero, and we in my Department will backing British ideas, we need a thriving economy to
always be happy to talk to him about that. pay for it all. That is why I have set out my Department’s
clear mission to build a stronger, greener United Kingdom.
That mission is underpinned by three priorities: to lead
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): Will the the world in tackling climate change; to solve the grand
right hon. Lady give way? challenges facing our society; and, quite simply, to
make the UK the best place in the world to work and to
Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): Will grow a business. Today, as well as prioritising the pathway
the Secretary of State give way? to net zero, we are solving the grand challenges facing
1033 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1034

our society, backing a new generation of problem solvers Margaret Thatcher ended her UN speech in 1989 by
in science and business. From space technology to life saying:
sciences, the UK is developing satellites that measure “We are the trustees of this planet, charged today with preserving
climate change and creating ways to help people to life itself—preserving life with all its mystery and all its wonder.”
enjoy five extra healthy years of life by 2035. From I hope that that is something on which we can all agree,
artificial intelligence to robotics, and from advanced whatever our party or politics. Thirty years ago, politicians
manufacturing to green tech, the UK will seize the could barely have imagined the technologies that would
opportunities offered by this new industrial revolution. be available today. Today, we can only dream of the
That will be underpinned by our commitment to increase world of 2050. Together—as a House, as a country and
our research and development spending to 2.4% of as an international community—we must act. Our action
GDP by 2027. can make a global difference. Instead of self-doubt, we
need self-belief in our ability to build the low-carbon,
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Again, we are hearing high-tech United Kingdom that we all want, a stronger,
the right noises from the Government, but the action is greener future for people across our shores, and a
not being followed through. The commitment to net zero sustainable future for our planet.
trips off the tongue, but can we achieve it if we continue
to fail to meet our environmental targets? 12.59 pm
Andrea Leadsom: I urge the hon. Gentleman to consider Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I
what I have just said in explaining the achievements, the thank the Secretary of State for her kind comments. Of
ambition and what we are actually doing in practice. course, she will understand what I and the other Labour
Perhaps he just needs to listen to what I am saying. leadership candidates are going through at the moment.
Putting yourself forward and standing up for your
To seize the opportunities that lie ahead, we must principles is a noble pursuit, but it is also certainly an
make the UK the best place in the world to work and to interesting one—I will say that much.
grow a business. This Government will back business to
the hilt, promoting inward investment and new export I agree with much of what the Secretary of State said
markets while also stamping out the poor practices that in her speech, but that ambition needs to be matched
can sometimes give businesses a bad name. Our plan is with sufficient action. I hope she takes the comments
to reduce burdens on business by reviewing and reducing that I am about to make in the spirit in which they are
business rates, and by resolving the scourge of late intended, so we can work across the House and reach a
payments. As we leave the European Union, we will solution to the climate emergency.
protect business confidence in supply chains, securing I pay tribute to my colleagues Danielle Rowley, Laura
the best possible trading arrangements with our European Pidcock and Sue Hayman, who were sadly unable to
partners. From diversity to sustainability and beyond, take their place after the general election. Each one of
we will hold businesses to the same high standards, them has been a champion, fighting against the climate
putting in place reforms to keep the UK a world leader emergency, and their policy work will leave a mark on
in audit, corporate governance and transparency. this House for years to come. I welcome my hon. Friend
the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke
Dr Huq: I wanted to congratulate the Secretary of Pollard) to his new role on the shadow DEFRA team. I
State on one thing that caught my eye in both the am sure he will also leave his mark in the years to come.
Queen’s Speech and last year’s Environment Bill: the Climate change and environmental breakdown present
biodiversity net gain mandated for planning authorities an existential threat to our society. I doubt that there is
when making their decisions. That has not yet taken a single Member of this House who would disagree
effect. Ealing Council has a meeting of its planning with me. Seeing off that threat by investing in new
committee tonight. Will she encourage me by making a industries and technologies, and the restoration of our
new year’s resolution of ensuring that such committees natural world, has the potential to bring jobs, new
adopt the measure now so that the bulldozers do not wealth and new pride to all the regions and nations of
sacrifice our nature? The future of our planet is at stake. the UK. Again, I doubt there is a single Member of the
House who does not want to see that.
Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Lady will hear that there So we start from a position of agreement on the green
is a lot of support for her initiative across the Chamber. industrial revolution, which, in a nutshell, is about
She is right that we do not want Government to be achieving just that. But to make it happen, rather than
telling people what to do; we want people to draw their just talking about it, three qualities are required that are
own conclusions and to seek to protect and preserve lacking in the Queen’s Speech: honesty, ambition and
our incredibly valuable biodiversity, our green spaces fairness. We need to be honest with ourselves and with
and our precious habitats for future generations. the electorate about what the science says is necessary to
At the same time as making the UK the best place in avoid planetary catastrophe; we need to be ambitious,
the world to work and to grow a business, we want our deploying our resources and testing our inventiveness at
employment Bill, to which we committed in the Queen’s a pace and scale that is commensurate with the challenge;
Speech, to make sure that work is fairly rewarded. We and we need to be fair, tackling climate change in a way
want to protect workers’ rights and ensure fair pay, to that is socially just, that leaves nobody behind, and that
create a world where flexible working is just called meets and exceeds the expectations that people have for
“working”, and to do more to support the crucial work their lives and their communities.
that people do as carers and parents, helping people I turn to the first quality—honesty. The Queen’s
to balance work with the other things that matter in Speech references the Government’s commitment to
their lives. achieving net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050,
1035 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1036

[Rebecca Long Bailey] with regard to meeting its old target of an 80% reduction
by 2050. The UK’s CO2 emissions fell by only 2% between
but the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2017 and 2018. Politics aside, that is nowhere near good
which is the world’s leading scientific body on the enough. Let us be honest about what it means. It is not
subject, says that the entire world needs to reach net like failing an exam or a driving test. Failing on climate
zero by 2050 to avoid more than 1.5° C of warming. change means devastating fires sweeping across Australia
Given the UK’s historical responsibility for climate and the Amazon. It means critical threats to food security,
change, and our wealth and resources to do something water security and the entire ecosystem, on which we all
about it, we clearly need to be ahead of the curve on depend.
this, and we need to be honest that 2050 is not good
enough—not if we are serious about keeping our people Janet Daby: Constituents living in flats and houses
safe. I urge the Government to revisit this target. have emailed me regarding a lack of charging options
for electric cars. Does my hon. Friend agree that the
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): My hon Government are simply not ambitious enough to support
Friend is making an excellent speech. COP26 is coming the UK’s electric vehicle charging needs?
to the UK this year. Is that not an additional responsibility
for the Government, not just a historical one? Is it not Rebecca Long Bailey: My hon. Friend makes a pertinent
true that we have a responsibility for the entire planet as point. Although the comments in the Queen’s Speech
the president and host of COP26? are certainly welcome—I will come to them in more
detail shortly—they do not sit alongside a robust strategy
Rebecca Long Bailey: My hon. Friend is spot on. We to support the creation of a market for electric vehicles.
have an opportunity now to show on the world stage The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter
that we really mean business when it comes to tackling Ross (Jamie Stone) made a point about the affordability
climate change. We need to lead the world, and not just of electric vehicles. They are not cheap and most people
in terms of the industries we support in the UK. We cannot afford them, so we have a duty to create the
need to lead by example and encourage other countries market by providing incentives. The Government should
across the world to take as robust action as I hope we use their own procurement to ensure that their fleets are
will do over the coming years. electric by a specified date, and we should ensure that
fleet operators are incentivised to make their fleets
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op): electric so that the vehicles can transition into the
My hon. Friend is making some good points. Does she second-hand car market. There is an essential need to
agree that another advantage to the early adoption of a ensure that people who want to buy new electric vehicles
zero-carbon target is that we can lead the world in the can afford to do so, with options ranging from scrappage
products we have developed and sell them around the schemes all the way through to incentivisation.
world? When we left government in 2010, we had set a
target for passive house standards for all buildings by Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): As my hon.
2015. One example of Government failure in this area is Friend will be aware, Orb steelworks—the only producer
that this Government removed that law, meaning that of electrical steels in the country—was mothballed just
new houses are not currently being built to passive before Christmas. With investment, the plant could
house standards. We are falling behind in new builds provide an end-to-end supply chain for the electric
and environmental standards, and should be calling on vehicles industry so that we would not have to import
the Government to address this. They should be ashamed this kind of steel. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is
of what they have done. absolutely crucial that the Government step up and
support our steel industry, which could play a key part
Rebecca Long Bailey: My hon. Friend is right. It is in this green industrial revolution?
important to note that markets are incentivised by
robust targets, but that targets alone are not enough. Rebecca Long Bailey: My hon. Friend is quite right.
They need to sit alongside a robust industrial strategy It is devastating to see the impact of what has happened
that supports our industries, all the way through from in her constituency. We need to tackle the climate
our steel sector to our automotive sector, so that they emergency, and we need a robust industrial strategy to
are capable of delivering the change at the pace that is sit alongside it. This is the biggest economic opportunity
required. that the country has had in a generation. By tackling a
huge societal and environmental need, we can support
Mr Dhesi: My hon. Friend is making an excellent our industries and create the new green jobs of the
speech. Does she agree that, despite the grand statements future. Unfortunately, although we talk about targets,
from the Government, they are missing all the targets and about providing help here and there, we are not
that they are putting in place due to their own mediocre backing it up with a comprehensive industrial strategy
measures? Does she also agree that the cuts to renewable that supports our industries. What was lacking in the
energy subsidies need to be reversed, and that we need general election campaign—although certainly not from
to ensure that the Government work towards jobs in the the Labour party—was support for the steel sector, with
green industries—unionised jobs? Rather than just talking a robust strategy ensuring that the steel industry plays a
a good game, the Government actually need to deliver. key role in our infrastructure projects and the technologies
of the future. That is what I would like to see from this
Rebecca Long Bailey: My hon. Friend is spot on. Government.
We need to be honest that we are off track when it
comes to meeting our targets, inadequate as they are. In Alan Brown: On honesty and ambition, the hon.
fact, according to the Committee on Climate Change—the Lady said that net zero by 2050 is not good enough, so I
Government’s official advisers—the UK is even off track am sure she will welcome the fact that the Scottish
1037 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1038

Government have legislated for net zero by 2045. During Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I am very
the general election campaign, Labour started talking disappointed that the hon. Member for South Dorset
about net zero by 2030. Currently, 27 million homes rely (Richard Drax) has mentioned the 75% figure, which
on fossil fuels, so getting to net zero by then would was also mentioned by the Foreign Office Minister who
mean changing over 52,000 homes a week every week gave the statement on the bushfires last week. It is fake
from 1 January 2020 until the end of the decade. What news that is being spread by climate change deniers in
are Labour’s plans for doing that? Australia. A letter to The Guardian from a number of
well-renowned climate academics, including several from
Rebecca Long Bailey: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Bristol University, was published yesterday. I think the
his comment. Certainly, there is no point in having a true figure for arson is less than 1%. I would like to
target without having an ambitious plan to deliver it. make sure that that is absolutely on the record.
We know from the work of leading scientists across the
world that the majority of the work that needs to be Rebecca Long Bailey: I thank my hon. Friend for her
done even to reach net zero by 2050 must be done by point because she is quite right.
2030. That is an inescapable fact and that is why we With reference to civil society groups like Extinction
have to move so quickly. Rebellion who have been urging those in power to tell
The Government have started to work towards insulating the truth about climate change, I was alarmed by reports
social homes. That is welcome, but it is not enough. We that the Government’s response was to defend the
need to look at how we can support the UK’s 27 million recommendation to list them alongside neo-Nazi terrorists.
homes to take part in a home insulation programme That is an absolute disgrace. I urge the Secretary of
that will not only tackle climate change but help to State to speak to her colleagues about this. It is absolutely
bring down bills. We had an ambitious package for that absurd that our school strikers and our climate activists
but unfortunately we did not deliver that message strongly who were trying to fight to be heard here in Westminster
enough in our election campaign. are being listed alongside terrorist organisations when
they are simply trying to save the planet and deliver a
Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): world for their future and that of their children and
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government’s grandchildren.
rhetoric is far away from the action that we actually see? Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)
In Greater Manchester we have a clean air crisis where (LD): I have no doubt in my own mind that the landslips,
people are literally dying because of the quality of the the flooding and the collapse of roads is being caused
air. When the Mayor of Greater Manchester made an by climate change: I come from the land of the mountain
approach to Government for grant support to help taxi and the flood. Highland Council and all rural councils,
drivers and the self-employed to transition to new vehicles, not just in Scotland but all over the UK, are faced with
the Government were not even willing to meet him the cost of the restoration works. Adding to the hon.
halfway. Lady’s suggestion that the money is not there, does she
agree that we need a dedicated income stream for the
Rebecca Long Bailey: My hon. Friend is quite right.
devolved institutions in the UK to pay for these repairs,
We are expected to encourage our localities and our
because otherwise it is just going to get worse?
regional governments to take part in the climate emergency
and to do their best to deliver plans on a local scale, but Rebecca Long Bailey: I thank the hon. Gentleman for
they are not being given sufficient resources to be able his comments because he is quite right. As I said earlier,
to do so. That is not acceptable, because this is a we cannot keep having discussions about whether climate
national crisis and a local crisis. That goes right to the change is real. It is real, and we cannot detach ourselves
heart of the point about public transport. We need to from the situation in thinking that it is something that
make sure that all the workers involved in transport are happens to other countries across the world and it is not
given the opportunity to deliver transport that is eco- going to affect us. It is already affecting us, and even if it
friendly, but they are not, particularly taxi drivers. Taxi does affect other countries across the world we will need
drivers, in many cases, cannot afford to transition to to help the people in those countries. We also need to
electric vehicles as rapidly as we need them to, and we recognise that for a country like ours that is so reliant
must provide the support that is necessary for them to on imported food, any disruption to any part of the
be able to achieve that. world disrupts our quality of life here. That is why it is
so important for us to protect the people here in the UK
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): A little earlier, by making sure that we lead across the world on this. I
the shadow Minister implied that climate change was am sure that we have collaborative agreement across the
causing the raging fires in the Amazon and Australia. House on that point.
The fires in the Amazon are caused by mankind trying
to create agricultural land, not climate change, as I Caroline Lucas: A moment ago the hon. Lady was
would expect it is very wet out there. In Australia—this talking about civil society organisations. I absolutely
goes back to a question I asked earlier—75% of fires agree with her about the excellent work done by Extinction
are caused by arson. Rebellion and others. Will she join me in congratulating
the student climate network, People and Planet, which
Rebecca Long Bailey: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s only this week announced that over half of UK universities
points, but we need to move beyond discussions regarding have now divested from fossil fuels? Does she agree that
climate change denial and recognise the scale of the it is about time that we in this Parliament got our house
task ahead of ahead of us, because the science is clear. in order? I have been trying, along with other colleagues,
We are facing a climate emergency, and if we do not to get our parliamentary pension fund to divest from
take robust action and lead the world, we will not have a fossil fuels. That still has not happened. Will she join me
world left—it is as simple as that. in saying that it is long overdue that we take this step?
1039 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1040

Rebecca Long Bailey: I thank the hon. Lady for her To give an example, fossil fuel workers have powered
comments and associate myself with them wholeheartedly. the country for decades. We need a clear and properly
I thank her for all the work that she has done in this funded plan for what will happen to those workers and
House over the years really to put this issue on the their communities as we move to a renewable energy
agenda at a time when others did not want to talk about system. We tried to set out proposals at the election for
it, quite frankly. a just transition fund. The absence of a plan for a just
transition in the Queen’s Speech is a major omission,
Let me move on to the second quality that is required— and I urge the Government to do better and start listening
ambition. The purpose of the Queen’s Speech should be to and working with trade unions on this as quickly as
to look forward—to set out the Government’s future possible.
plans—but most of the climate section looks backwards,
sadly, to the Government’s record over the past 12 months, It was more than 30 years ago that NASA scientist
and even this is confusing to many. There is reference to James Hansen presented his findings on climate change
£400 million of funding for electric vehicle charging to the US Senate. Nobody could reasonably argue that
infrastructure, but this was first announced in the 2017 we have done enough since then, and now we are
Budget. The Queen’s Speech also references an industrial running out of time. We cannot afford another lost
energy transformation fund, but this was announced in five years. I urge the Government to work with us and
the 2018 Budget. We were told that 53% of electricity Members across the House to correct the obvious
now comes from low-carbon sources, and that sounds shortcomings of the Queen’s Speech and their agenda,
good, but is it really ambitious enough? As any energy and to develop a package of measures that can secure
expert will tell you, electricity is the easy part. Only the future all of us deserve. There is still time, but it is
11% of the UK’s total end energy consumption, including running out.
heat and transport, comes from renewable sources. Only
7% of the UK’s heat demand is met by renewable 1.20 pm
sources. As Labour set out at the general election, to get Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North)
on track to a net-zero energy system, we need low-carbon (Con): I intend to speak briefly, as I am conscious that
electricity at levels of above 90% within a decade. there will be a large number of extremely high-quality
The Government reference their doubling of international maiden speeches this afternoon. I wish to raise a very
climate finance, and this sounds good until you realise niche subject while my right hon. Friend the Secretary
that this money is not new or additional and that the of State is still in her place. I feel privileged to be called
Government are effectively raiding the aid budget to so early in the debate, following only the Secretary of
pay for it. The Government want to ensure that everybody State and the shadow Secretary of State.
is within 30 miles of an electric charging point, but that I want to pick up briefly on some of the comments
does not sound particularly ambitious to me, to be that the Secretary of State made about the generation
honest. Nor does the commitment to end the export of of clean energy. I urge her to ensure that, when we are
plastic waste to non-OECD countries when 60% of our generating green energy, it must be properly green. She
plastic waste exports are actually shipped to OECD also spoke of new technologies. I absolutely agree; there
countries. Should not the Government be asking why are many new technologies coming forward that will
we are producing all that pointless plastic in the first enable us to generate power and deal with waste in
place and cut it off at source rather than dumping the much greener ways, but we must scrutinise them incredibly
problem overseas? carefully, to ensure we do not make mistakes that will be
around for many generations to come.
There are of course welcome features in the Queen’s I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s comments
Speech, such as the commitment to invest £800 million and the policies included in Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech.
to develop the UK’s first carbon capture and storage I particularly welcome the introduction of a landmark
cluster by the mid-2020s. But I remember the time in environment Bill, the introduction of an Office for
2010 when the coalition made a £1 billion commitment Environmental Protection and the personal commitment
to CCS before scrapping it again in 2015. Can the of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to chair
Secretary of State assure us that the UK’s carbon-intensive a new Cabinet Committee on Climate Change. The
industries will not suffer the same fate as when the last environment Bill will cement our position as a world
promise was made? Why is it that as the climate crisis leader on air quality, biodiversity and plastics reduction;
worsens the Government appear to be treading water and I know I am correct on that because I am quoting
going backwards? Tackling the climate and environmental directly from the Conservative research department brief—
emergency and capturing the massive opportunities of something that I would commend to all new Conservative
the green economy require ambition. We needed to see Members.
an emergency plan for the first 100 days of Government—a
plan for every year of this Parliament and a plan for the Those three points are of particular interest to us in
decade ahead. Sadly, the Queen’s Speech does not come Romsey and Southampton North, and now I come to
close to this. the niche comments that I wish to make. Members may
have heard me raise with the Prime Minister last week
I now turn to the third and final quality—fairness. the fact that US company Wheelabrator is planning to
Rapid decarbonisation across our economy requires build, under national infrastructure rules, a giant incinerator
fundamental changes in the way we work and the way in my constituency to burn commercial waste, between
we live. Done badly, this presents big risks to people’s the beautiful, picturesque Test Valley villages of Longparish
livelihoods. Only by socialising the costs and the benefits and Barton Stacey. Notionally, it will generate energy
of decarbonisation will we be able to take the public from waste, but it is in fact many miles from any
with us through this change, but the Queen’s Speech connection to the national grid, and significantly, it is
does not set out a plan to do that. not close to a demand for that energy. It is within a few
1041 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1042

miles of an area of outstanding natural beauty and the has been too stop-start to be classed as revolutionary.
South Downs national park. It is proposed to be twice We have seen a welcome increase in the deployment of
the size of Winchester cathedral, but, of course, devoid renewable energy, and UK Government support has
of any of the architectural merit of that building. It will facilitated that, but owing to policy changes, there have
be in excess of 40 metres high, with chimneys that are been too many peaks, troughs and, in some cases,
80 metres high. The plan is to locate it adjacent to the catastrophic failures because of the actions of the UK
River Dever, which is known the world over for its Government.
fantastic fly fishing and is a tributary of the River Test. The first example of that is onshore wind, which was
The incinerator will be situated above the aquifer and deployed to great effect in Scotland, with prices falling
will be pumping pollution into the atmosphere, putting rapidly due to the initial Government policies. It was a
the biodiversity of this precious area at risk. renewable energy revolution that Scotland embraced—one
My asks of the Secretary of State today are wholly in that saw 75% of gross electricity demand met by renewable
line with her and my aspirations for a reduction in generation in Scotland in 2018. However, the Tory shire
carbon emissions, enabling us to meet our net zero prejudice against onshore wind means that the Tory
target and supporting her goal of better air quality, and Government are now blocking onshore wind across the
totally in keeping with the aim to reduce waste, including UK, against Scotland’s wishes.
plastics. We simply cannot keep looking to incineration The Committee on Climate Change states that onshore
as a solution to landfill. It is not good enough, and it is wind capacity in the UK needs to increase from 13 GW
not green enough. to 35 GW by 2035 as part of the net zero transition, yet
I turn to relatively recent history. The hon. Member there is no route to market at present for onshore wind,
for Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey) mentioned despite it being the cheapest form of electricity generation.
the Treasury’s October 2018 Budget, which stated: The former Secretary of State for Scotland should hang
“the government wants to maximise the amount of waste sent to his head in shame for blocking the redeployment of
recycling instead of incineration and landfill. Should wider policies onshore wind in Scotland. A report by Vivid Economics
not deliver the government’s waste ambitions in the future, it will estimates that this could cost 2,300 jobs in Scotland and
consider the introduction of a tax on the incineration of waste, in add £50 a year to everybody’s energy bills.
conjunction with landfill tax, taking account of the possible
impacts on local authorities.” As the debate on Scottish independence re-intensifies,
we need to remember the broken pledge and propaganda
I know that my friends at Hampshire County Council
on onshore wind in 2014. We were told how well Scotland
would wish to emphasise the point that we have to be
does out of onshore wind subsidies, how that would
cognisant of the needs of local authorities, but the
continue and how the UK as a whole would support
proposal in my constituency is not a local authority
onshore wind in Scotland, but instead the subsidies
project; it is a massive commercial venture.
were removed a year or so after. That is another broken
I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments about promise in 2014 that the public need to be reminded of.
businesses being held to account for their actions. This
When we consider renewables and wind in particular,
commercial venture seeks to make money by putting
it is a reminder that the transmission charging regime is
pollutants into the atmosphere. It pays no heed to the
a straitjacket around Scotland. The punitive charges,
specific qualities of the landscape or local biodiversity. I
especially in the north of Scotland, can be a deal breaker
want to put on record the determination of local residents
for some developments. The charging system needs a
to oppose the project by whatever means necessary, and
complete overhaul to allow deployment of renewable
would especially mention the brilliant campaigners of
energy for maximum benefit.
Keep Test Valley Beautiful. I urge the Secretary of State
to ensure that we hold to our commitments to improve Similarly, we need a timescale for the delivery of
air quality, reduce waste and protect our precious interconnectors to Scotland’s islands. The change in
environmental diversity. classification for island onshore wind so that it can bid
in pot 2 contract for difference auctions is welcome,
Several hon. Members rose— but without the interconnectors these opportunities
cannot be maximised. Ofgem needs to reconsider its
Mr Speaker: Order. Can I suggest that Members rejection of a 600 MW interconnector to the Western
speak for up to 10 minutes, so that everybody gets a fair Isles. Why is it holding out for a less ambitious 450 MW
share of the time? That does not include the Scottish interconnector?
National party Front-Bench spokesman—I call Alan Brown. We need greater strategic vision from the UK
Government on interconnectors. We need interconnectors
1.25 pm to the continent and Norway, because of the abundance
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): The of hydroelectric energy. Is it not telling that Ireland is
word “revolution” means either an overthrow or a getting an interconnector to France, paid for by the EU
radical and pervasive change in society, especially one at a cost of half a billion pounds? What does that signal
made suddenly. Have we really had a green industrial for the future direction of the single energy market, and
revolution? Have we had a revolution in Government? I where does Brexit and a possible no-deal crash-out
would suggest that, if anything, there has been a counter leave the UK without those vital interconnectors?
green revolution, given that the Tory Government scrapped In the past—in another policy change—we had the
the Department for Energy and Climate Change, thus carbon capture fiasco, when the Treasury pulled £1 billion
highlighting their priorities in recent years. that was on offer, and which looked set to deliver carbon
I have to acknowledge that we have made fantastic capture and storage in Peterhead. That was a wasted
strides forward with renewable energy, but has it been opportunity—money down the drain with nothing to
a revolution? I would argue that, owing to the UK show for it—and it cost 600 jobs in Peterhead and
Government chopping and changing strategy, the process ruined the chance for the UK and Scotland to be a
1043 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1044

[Alan Brown] That would be an ideal way to generate industrial jobs

around the coastal communities, and it would provide
world leader in that technology. I am asking Westminster greater opportunities for companies in Scotland, such
to please back Scotland’s CCS potential. With 35% of as BiFab and CS Wind. Why are the UK Government
the available capacity in the whole of Europe, we could not willing to incorporate such a procurement quality
still be a world leader. However, it needs a fast start, and assessment mechanism in the auction process? It makes
better investment in Scotland. The Committee on Climate sense, and it would also reduce the construction carbon
Change has made it clear that carbon capture is not a footprint for the delivery of such projects.
wish; it is a necessity in order to hit net zero by 2050. If we are to hit net zero in the UK by 2050, we need a
Solar energy was another possible success story, yet, proper green industrial revolution. We need the large-scale
when it was looking good, the Tory Government pulled development of CCS, which, as well as creating jobs,
the feed-in tariffs and now they have quadrupled the will allow a long-term just transition for the oil and gas
VAT on solar installations, so they have destroyed the sector. We need radical measures to decarbonise our
industry just as it was heading towards subsidy-free heat. Our domestic heating systems are the elephant in
installations. That is another example of a UK Government the room when it comes to the net zero target. I said
policy revolution wreaking havoc on an industry. The VAT earlier that 27 million houses relied on fossil fuels for
decision must be reversed as soon as possible. heating, so a change in that mechanism for 27 million
And yet, when it comes to nuclear and the Government’s homes needs to be a proper revolution. It is likely that
nuclear obsession, money is no object. We signed up to we shall see gas central heating boilers change to hydrogen
Hinkley Point C, which has a 35-year concession at a boilers, and we know that hydrogen blending is a short-term
strike rate of £92.50 per MWh, and yet, as the Secretary transitional measure in decarbonising the gas network,
of State is aware—she spoke about the benefits of but we need the strategies and policies in place, and
offshore wind—offshore wind now has a strike rate of the necessary changes in regulation to allow that to
£40 per MWh for just 15 years, so it is about three to happen. There, too, we need concrete plans from the
four times cheaper than nuclear energy. Why are the UK Government.
Tory Government continuing to pursue new nuclear If I may switch back to Scotland, Scotland has been
projects? It makes no sense. [Interruption.] Can the attempting to undergo a real green industrial revolution,
Secretary of State explain why? but again we have been hampered by UK Government
policies, the U-turns and the lack of strategic vision.
Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Gentleman will be very Where is the energy White Paper that we were promised
aware that there is a difference between the baseload last year? It is ridiculous to have a clean growth strategy,
and the variability of renewables. an industrial strategy, but not an overarching or a
linking energy policy that brings those together. We need
Alan Brown: And the Secretary of State will know to see that sooner or later.
very well that that baseload is becoming a moot argument.
Where is the Government response to the National
It was argued that Hinkley Point C was required by
Infrastructure Commission? We are still waiting on
December 2017 for the baseload to stop the lights going
that. That is another organisation that states that energy
out. Now Hinkley will not be delivered till 2025 by the
efficiency should be treated as a national infrastructure
earliest, and the lights have not gone out. That shows
programme. It would create jobs and it reduces carbon
how much the market has changed. Half the existing
emissions, energy demand and fuel poverty. And yet,
nuclear power stations will be decommissioned by 2024,
again, the Tory Government have not addressed that.
and they cannot be replaced by new nuclear stations in
They previously chose to go down the route of the
that time, so the Government really do need to look
green deal, which actually forced people to take out
again at their strategy, and new nuclear power stations
loans. Then the green deal led to scandal, with the
is not that.
mis-selling of solar panels by the company HELMS,
The Government say that the National Infrastructure leaving thousands of people with 25-year loans and
Commission have said that there should be only one faulty installations. The UK Government have still not
new nuclear power station, because of the change in rectified that. Will the Secretary of State consider that
renewables technology. Again, it seems that the Government as well?
are not actually listening to the body they say they are
listening to. Meanwhile, the Scottish Government spend four times
as much per capita on energy efficiency measures as the
As an alternative to nuclear, we also need to look at UK Government. For that, they have been praised by
sector deals for investments such as marine and tidal industry, third sector organisations and the Business,
energy, and also floating offshore wind. Where are their Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee. Put simply,
sector deals and what is happening with those? Scotland leads the way in energy efficiency, and by 2021
Has there even been an industrial revolution? Again, the SNP Government will have invested £1 billion in energy
I would suggest not. The UK Government failed to efficiency programmes.
back the technological development of onshore wind The one energy efficiency measure that the UK
and the fantastic opportunities there. That led to the Government brought in is the energy company obligation
manufacturing sector of that industry being developed scheme—ECO. But the Committee on Fuel Poverty
elsewhere, particularly Denmark. That was a massive states that that is not helping the people who require it
lost opportunity, and it cannot be replicated by other the most. In effect, that means that those who struggle
emerging technologies. to pay their bills for energy costs now pay extra on their
Even now, when it comes to offshore wind, the CfD energy bills for ECO, which is then funding energy
auctions do not include a quality mechanism that would efficiency measures for those most likely to be able to
allow bidders to be rewarded for using local supply chains. afford them. That is completely bonkers. There is also a
1045 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1046

really serious point, because every year 3,000 people in showing such leadership, but I know it could do so
the UK die as a result of fuel poverty—the second-worst much more if it were a small, independent country that
rate in Europe. Urgent, coherent action is needed to was able to grasp the nettle in the way that Norway has.
address fuel poverty and to address energy efficiency
measures. Several hon. Members rose—
Scotland leads in energy efficiency, and we also lead
in climate change registration targets: the first Government Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I remind
to call a climate change emergency; a net zero target for the House of the informal time limit of 10 minutes—we
2045; and a 75% target reduction by 2030. According to will be quite rigid about that—and Members should
the Committee on Climate Change, Scotland has become observe the usual courtesies when a maiden speech is
the leading UK nation in reducing greenhouse gas being delivered. I have great pleasure in calling the next
emissions under the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009. Member to make a maiden speech, Simon Fell.
However, these latest targets are world-leading. Our
2030 target goes beyond what the Intergovernmental
1.41 pm
Panel on Climate Change report states is required globally
to limit warming to the 1.5°, as per the Paris climate Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con): Thank you,
agreement. We have also taken the difficult decision not Mr Deputy Speaker, and may I welcome you back to
to reduce air passenger duty when it is devolved. In the your position in the Chair? I am grateful to be making
past couple of days the UK Government have been my maiden speech in this debate on the green industrial
flip-flopping on that, and are all over the place when it revolution. Although mine is the first maiden speech
comes to APD. delivered today, it is daunting to follow the contributions
Going forward, the Scottish Government’s “Programme made by colleagues from both Government and Opposition
for Government” puts the green new deal at the heart of Benches over the past couple of days. I watched those
Government policy. Securing transition to net zero will speeches, feeling increasingly green as they went on, and
be the primary mission for the Scottish National Investment I do not think those Members need my congratulations.
Bank, supported by £130 million this year. The creation Indeed, when they rise up the ministerial ranks, I hope
of the SNIB will provide £2 billion of long-term capital they will look favourably on me.
to businesses and infrastructure projects, to help transform I will also gladly comply with another tradition of
the Scottish economy, and again reduce carbon emissions. the House and pay tribute to my predecessor as Member
That contrasts directly with the UK Green Investment of Parliament for Barrow and Furness, John Woodcock.
Bank, set up by the Tory Government and then sold off Despite hailing from the wrong side of the Pennines,
without assurances of green aims or a UK focus. John was a staunch and passionate defender of that
We know that transport is a major carbon emitter. If beautiful but often neglected part of the world. He fought
we are looking at the roll-out of electric vehicles, I to secure the Dreadnought programme in the shipyard,
suggest that we need to look at Norway. It has undertaken and he brought that same focus to the fight against
a real revolution towards electric and low emission antisemitism and injustice wherever he saw it, no matter
vehicles. In 2019, 58% of new car sales were of plug-in the personal cost. John and I have clashed many times
low-emission vehicles and 42% of overall sales were of over the years, but his affection for Furness shines
fully electric cars. Meanwhile, here in the UK, flags are through and I wish him the best for the future.
being waved and we are supposed to celebrate the fact Barrow and Furness is hidden away, but it is a remarkable
that we have reached 3% sales of electric vehicles. place. Stretching—almost—from the Old Man of Coniston
According to the Committee on Climate Change, the in the north, all the way to Walney Island in the south,
UK deadline of 2040 for the phase-out of fossil fuel Barrow is beautiful, with an industrial town at its
vehicles is way too far ahead, and even then the plans beating heart. We are home to the national endeavour
for its delivery are too vague. I suggest that the UK of building our nation’s nuclear deterrent, and we have
Government look to a small, independent, prosperous a proud history of shipbuilding, from ocean liners to
country such as Norway for inspiration, and to see how Royal Navy flagship vessels and submarines.
things can be done properly. It was not always that way. Furness is rich in mineral
The UK has made strides regarding carbon emissions, deposits such as copper, nickel, cobalt and iron ore.
but, as we have heard, there is a long way to go. While Indeed, during the 1830s, prospecting for iron ore led to
we look for solutions, nature is unfortunately undergoing the creation of the town of Barrow as we know it. A
its own climate change revolution. We have seen that collection of sheep farms rapidly turned into a Victorian
with the bushfires in Australia, the 4 million hectares of town of high standing, an iron exporting giant, a ship-
Siberian forest that burned a few months ago, and the building hub, and then into a world leader in submarine
fires in Greenland, Alaska and Canada. The six hottest production. That is the work on which many—almost
years on record have been the last six consecutive years, one in five—of my constituents rely, either directly or
with warming oceans and melting ice. Things are critical, through our substantial supply chains. I will focus on
and Lord Deben, Chair of the Committee on Climate ensuring not only that my party honours its commitments
Change, said that the UK’s efforts to deal with climate to sustain that work, but that we seek to grow our
change have fallen short. Indeed, in the interim progress capability by renewing the Astute-class boats and seeking
report he states that wider opportunities.
“policy ambition and implementation now fall well short of what Barrow and Furness is not just about submarines. Our
is required.” market towns, from Ulverston to Dalton and Broughton-
We have a Prime Minister who ducked out of TV in-Furness, are bustling and—I urge hon. Members to
debates on climate change, so we are looking for real note this—ideal for weekend visits and Easter holidays.
leadership on this issue. I am glad that Scotland is People can watch the grey seals in South Walney, with
1047 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1048

[Simon Fell] On the doorstep, I was told time and again that
traditional Labour voters were lending me their votes. I
Piel Island, which used to repel marauding Scots from consider every vote to be lent—we have to earn those
the harbour, but now welcomes them as tourists, on the votes, and to earn them again we must deliver on our
horizon. From local craft shops to the best pies in promises to level up communities such as Barrow and
England, Furness’s real natural resource is its people, Furness, to renew our town centres, finally to tackle
and there is no place with a stronger sense of community. existing deep-set poverty, and to invest in our NHS and
Coming off a gruelling election campaign, we often schools. I shall pursue those things with a single-minded
find ourselves thinking about what would have happened focus. It is an incredible honour to be standing up and
had we zigged rather than zagged, or if life had taken us speaking here, and I will work daily to earn the trust
in a different direction. The joy of an election, as all that the people of Barrow and Furness have placed in
hon. Members will know, is meeting people, and hearing me. I look forward to fighting for them in the years to
on the doorstep what they want for their families, come.
futures and community. That same joy also comes from
the people with whom we spend our election campaigns, Several hon. Members rose—
and if hon. Members will indulge me, I wish to pay Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Simon
tribute to five people without whom I would not be Fell is a former researcher of mine, and I am privileged
standing here now. First is my father, Peter, a bounder to have been in the Chair when he gave his maiden speech.
of hedges and disrespecter of people’s gates—I would Well done, Simon.
not be here without him. I also pay tribute to my wife,
Pippa—my rock—to my mother, Meriel, who kept me
sane, and to Ben and Brenda, who despite having a 1.48 pm
candidate who would not listen to them, made my Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I congratulate
campaign a success. I fear that if I listed everyone I the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell)—
should thank, the orchestra would play me off, but they that is clearly where he gets his ease of manner, and he
know who they are. already seems like a veteran of the Chamber. I have
We also lost people this campaign, and I will take this never visited his constituency, but perhaps it is about
opportunity to remember Pam Whittam, the kindest time I did.
and most determined stalwart of my local party, whose I wish to pay tribute to my colleague, Sue Hayman,
cooking I still think about in idle moments, as well as who represented another Cumbrian seat. I wish she were
Rory McClure, former mayor of Barrow, former president here today to contribute to this debate, because she did
of Furness Rotary, and a dedicated local councillor and so much, particularly on Labour’s “Plan for Nature”
friend. I miss them both terribly. and animal welfare manifesto, and as our Front-Bench
I campaigned on a slogan of “Securing Furness’s speaker shadowing the Department for Environment,
Future”, which is not a pledge I take lightly. Furness’s Food and Rural Affairs. She will be very much missed.
future is at stake, and it is hard not to argue that we are The planet is facing a climate and ecological crisis,
a left-behind community. The A590, our main road, is but forgive me, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I do not have
dangerous and prone to flooding. The A595 runs through complete confidence in the Government’s ability to rise
a farmyard. When our rail franchise fails—as it does all to the challenge. Since we returned after the election,
too often—our people are left stranded. One point that two ministerial appearances at the Dispatch Box have
is especially appropriate to raise in this debate is that raised my concerns. We had a statement on the Australian
our current rail service is so poor that it is pushing bushfires, and the Foreign Office Minister managed to
people off public transport and back into their cars. get through her entire opening statement without putting
That is why I look forward to working with Front-Bench the situation in the climate context. When a number of
colleagues to strip Northern of its franchise, and deliver us challenged her and said, “Surely, if you are talking
a reliable and improved rail service on the Furness line. about the Australian bushfires, you should be talking
about why they are happening?”, she got quite cross
We in Furness have a tremendous opportunity to be
with me and said that we should be treating it like some
at the forefront of the green industrial revolution. We
sort of disaster where we just come in afterwards and
vie with Hull to be host to the largest offshore wind
patch things up, rather than looking at the root causes.
farm in the world—a title I very much hope we will
As we have already heard, she repeated the 75% arson
soon regain. Up the coast in Copeland is Sellafield, to
claim, which has been thoroughly debunked.
which a number of my constituents make a daily journey,
through the farmyard that I mentioned. We in south-west We also had an urgent question on Flybe yesterday.
Cumbria are already pioneers of renewable energy, but Again, in the Minister’s initial response, with regard to
there are further opportunities on our doorstep. Our bailing out an airline and possibly cutting air passenger
coastline is the ideal place for a tidal barrage, the duty on domestic flights, there was no mention at all of
development of which would cement the Cumbrian the impact on carbon emissions and pollution. Surely,
coast as a northern powerhouse in renewable energy, no matter what your views on whether Flybe provides
skills and capability. The impact of such a concentration an essential service, you have to mention climate change
of renewables businesses in Morecambe Bay and the if you are serious about trying to reach net zero.
Cumbrian coast would be transformative. That remote Another thing that really worries me is that the
and beautiful part of England could become the epicentre COP25 climate change talks took place during the
of the green industrial revolution. We have the people, election campaign. A number of us had been hoping to
we have the skills; we just need the chance, and I look attend, but were obviously unable to because of the
forward to working with colleagues on the Front Bench election. We have not had a ministerial statement on
to explore the viability of those bold projects. COP25. We should have had an oral statement, particularly
1049 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1050

as we are hosting COP26. COP25 is widely regarded as point boasting about what we do on the one hand, if we
a failure—very little was achieved. I would have expected, then finance the private sector to do damaging fossil
at the very least, a written ministerial statement assessing fuel exploration on the other hand.
what did not happen in Madrid and putting forward a The agriculture Bill has not been mentioned yet. Last
plan for how we can get things back on track as we host time it was before us, I spoke on Second Reading and
COP26 in Glasgow later this year. served on the Bill Committee, which concluded in December
In terms of what is in the Queen’s Speech, I welcome 2018. There is a sense of déjà vu to hear it announced
the direction of travel set out in the environment Bill. I again. I think it was published a couple of hours ago
particularly welcome the decision to locate the new and there have been only a couple of minor tweaks to
Office of Environmental Protection in Bristol. I can the previous Bill. That is disappointing. It is disappointing
think of no better place for it, given the level of expertise that the Government did not use this opportunity to
we have in the city. My concern, however, is particularly think again about how farming can tackle the climate,
that the long-term targets do not need to be set until nature and health crises all together. Those three dots
2022 and potentially cannot be enforced for almost two simply have not been joined up. From my perspective, it
decades. Reference has already been made to the fact requires a transition to sustainable agroecological farming
that the carbon budgets, which give us interim targets, by 2030, as proposed by the RSA’s Food, Farming and
are slipping. We know that we are not going to meet the Countryside Commission. I hope, in the new Parliament,
recycling target for this year. We cannot just have one to reconstitute the all-party group on agroecology, which
goal that we aim to reach two decades into the future. I chaired for a number of years, and I will be tabling the
We have got to have a way of monitoring it and holding same amendments in support of whole-farm systems
the Government to account in the short term as well. that I tabled in the previous Parliament.
The OEP will not be truly independent and will lack I would also like the Government to adopt the previously
the power to hold the Government to account. In the proposed new clause on supporting county farms. We
previous Parliament, I sat on both the Environmental have heard a lot of warm words on this. In a session I
Audit Committee and the Environment, Food and Rural chaired at the Oxford Real Farming conference, the
Affairs Committee, which undertook pre-legislative scrutiny. former Secretary of State for Environment, Food and
Both Committees made that point. There is also no Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath
commitment to non-regression. When we should be (Michael Gove), made clear his commitment to county
seeking constant improvement, we can do better than farms, which are a great way for new entrants who
our current standards. We certainly should not be going cannot afford to buy land at today’s prices to enter the
backwards. National infrastructure projects will not be market. They are also a good way to direct the growing
subject to biodiversity net gain. Increasingly, net gain is of local healthy food and restoring nature. I hope we
looking like net parity. Again, we should be seeking can pin the Government down on that.
improvements and not trying to just hold things as they We need a long-term financial commitment, which
are. The National Trust is particularly concerned that farmers have been asking for, on delivering public goods
the historic environment has been excluded, even though to be set out in the Bill. The Government have now
the 25-year environment plan put it on a level playing ring-fenced the overall farm funding budget for the next
field with the natural environment. There is no commitment five years, but there is still no indication as to how it will
to a national tree strategy, which is a crucial nature-based be divided up. Based on independent analysis by the
solution. While I am here, I would also make a plea for Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the National
us to restore our peat lands. They can be an incredible Trust and the Wildlife Trust, at least £2.9 billion is
carbon sink, but if we allow grouse moor owners to set needed for the new environment land management schemes.
fire to them, the environmental degradation that goes The Bill is also missing a duty on the Government to
with that releases a huge amount of carbon into the routinely assess the scale of financial need and a strong
atmosphere. We need action on that. baseline of regulations for land managers to adhere to.
On a global scale, we heard the hon. Member for I tabled new clause 1 in the Report stage of the Bill,
Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) talk about the need which then suddenly disappeared in December 2018. I
to measure consumption, rather than just production. think one of the reasons it disappeared was that the
There is absolutely no way that we are looking at the Government were convinced they would lose on new
true picture unless we do so. The UK, for example, clause 1. New clause 1 was designed to ensure that there
consumes 3.3 million tonnes of soy per year. Some would be no lowering of environmental, food safety
77% of that comes from high-risk deforestation areas in and animal welfare standards in any future trade deals.
Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay. We know that land use The Government talk about that a lot, but when I raised
is one of the biggest threats to biodiversity and ecosystem it at Brexit questions last week, mentioning the National
services. Farmers Union’s concerns and its request for a trading
On UK Export Finance, it is a shame that the Secretary standards commission to be established, the Minister
of State is no longer in her place. She was boasting was incredibly dismissive. We know that the Government
about some of the work we do on reducing carbon will come under significant pressure from the Department
emissions overseas, but, as the Environmental Audit for International Trade to lower standards in any future
Committee found, UK Export Finance spent £4.8 billion trade deal once we leave the EU, and that will lead to a
on fossil fuel projects overseas between 2010 and 2016. race to the bottom. As I said, it is not just environmentalists
In fact, well over 90%—I think 95% or 96%—of the but the NFU and everyone involved in the food sector
amount it spends on financing energy projects overseas in this country who do not want to see that.
goes on fossil fuel projects, rather than on cleaner Finally, if I can just ask where we are in terms of
renewable projects. That is almost equal to the total some of the animal welfare proposals. There is a lot of
spending on international climate finance. There is no support for the sentencing Bill, which will increase the
1051 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1052

[Kerry McCarthy] compassionate side of capitalism and the good things

that can be done. Jobs, training, community and a
sentences for animal cruelty from six months to five decent standard of living were their legacy and their
years. I hope that will be brought back soon. Where has values, and that lives on today in Northfield.
the sentience Bill got to? Again, the Government promised Austin Motors—latterly, MG Rover—has been
several years ago, I think in 2017, to introduce a sentience synonymous with Longbridge and Northfield for many,
Bill. They still have not done so. I urge the Government many decades. Indeed, this week, many former employees
to bring it forward as soon as possible. will be saddened to see demolition beginning of the two
main plant areas on the site, but with our changing
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We now come economy, we must adapt and embrace our new green
to another maiden speech—Mr Gary Sambrook. industry to ensure that we use it to create more jobs and
wealth, provide better homes and increase our connectivity
1.58 pm between cities and suburbs, and cross-borough. We must
Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): Thank make sure that we use every possible opportunity from
you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I first say that our new green industry to make that happen.
it is a pleasure to be giving my maiden speech with you All of this creates life chances, because as the Prime
in the Chair? Thank you for all your help and guidance Minister says, talent is equally shared across our country,
to new Members since we arrived here on whatever day but unfortunately, opportunity often is not. I stand here
it was in December—it feels like a long time ago. feeling that it was absolutely unthinkable that I would
Secondly, may I also thank my hon. Friend the Member ever speak in this Chamber. We hear stories—I think
for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris)? I do the former Member for Rutland and Melton, Sir Alan
not think I would be here today without his help, Duncan, once said that he remembers hiding under the
guidance and, most importantly, his friendship over the bedsheets as a teenager reading “Erskine May”. I was
past six years. Finally, I would like to congratulate my similar, but it was a dictionary because I hadn’t the
hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Simon foggiest what was going on and did not understand
Fell) on his excellent maiden speech. what most people were talking about.
I would like to say a couple of words about my Talking about life chances makes me reflect on my
predecessor, Richard Burden, who had a long and own roots. I was born in a part of Birmingham called
distinguished service in this House over 27 years. He Kingstanding, which was the largest council estate in
definitely built up a reputation over time in Northfield. Europe when it was built. I went to a secondary school
Richard Burden and Roger King, another former Member that in 2004, just before I left, had a pass rate of 11%.
in the constituency, struck up a good partnership My parents are incredibly hard-working: my mother is
campaigning together on local issues, especially the a dinner lady and my dad is a van driver. My grandparents
development of the North Worcestershire golf club that have worked in industries in Birmingham, too. My
we have all been campaigning against. They also shared grandad has always said to me that anything in life can
a huge passion for motorsport. Unfortunately, we part be achieved as long as you have two things: concentration
in respect of my skills in this area, which can be described and dedication. He also says that you can say whatever
in this way: I had to ring up my uncle once to ask him you like to anybody as long as you smile—I have tried
what the flashing gravy boat meant in the car, to which that a couple of times, but it does not always work out
he coolly said, “It’s the oil light—you need to change for the best.
your oil.” Although my skill base in this area may not Since leaving school there have unfortunately been
be the same as theirs, my enthusiasm for the motoring several times when I have picked up the Birmingham
industry is just as high, and we need to celebrate it and Mail and seen pictures of people who I went to school
make sure that it is still a distinguishing part of our with who have gone to prison, for a variety of crimes. It
country. often makes me think, “How did it ever happen, and
Birmingham is home, and I have lived there for my why?”My secondary school had some fantastic teachers—I
entire 30 years. It is rapidly growing and it has been known remember two in particular: Mr Hopkins and Mrs Hare,
as the city of a thousand trades. It was an integral part who I hope to bring down here one day to thank them
of the industrial revolution in the UK, as was Northfield. for their support during my teenage years. They gave it
Northfield, Kings Norton, Weoley, Allens Cross, Rubery their all and they cared about the students at that
and Rednal, Frankley, West Heath and Longbridge are school, but something was desperately wrong in the
all very distinctive parts of my constituency. They all system at the time, and too many people left school
started off as villages in north Worcestershire and were ill-equipped, without the skills that they needed to succeed
later consumed by the ever-expanding Birmingham. in life.
Now, 100 years later, they are a key contributing part of I stand here with an enormous amount of responsibility
our city, especially in industry. on my shoulders and a passion for what I want to try to
The two things that most people think about when deliver while I am in this place. I obviously want to do
you mention Birmingham, Northfield are, of course, well by my constituents in Birmingham, Northfield,
the Cadbury family and Austin Motors—latterly, MG and to do well by Parliament and this country as we try
Rover. The Cadbury family left behind a lasting legacy to restore faith in this place and re-establish our national
for south Birmingham in many physical forms, including pride. I also want to do well by and champion the
the Manor Farm Park, the Royal Orthopaedic Hospital working-class kids up and down this country who wake
and, although it is not quite in my constituency—it is in up every day with ambition and zeal and want to realise
the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member their opportunities. I think it is through the new green
for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid)—the Lickey Hills. They industry that we will create those opportunities and
were a caring family who ably demonstrated the realise those dreams.
1053 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1054

2.5 pm by Conservative MPs, into one distinct region, it would

have a population of 5.7 million and would be the
Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): I congratulate poorest region in the United Kingdom, so the shared
the hon. Members for Birmingham, Northfield (Gary prosperity fund that Ministers talk about needs to be
Sambrook) and for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell) targeted at regions and former coalfield areas such as
on their excellent and most entertaining maiden speeches. mine in the north-east.
I am sure that we will hear a lot more from them during
this Parliament. The IPPR North research department found that
between 2009-10 and 2017-18 the north-east saw a £3.6 billion
I am very pleased to speak in this debate, and I was cut in public spending, while the south-east and south-
following very closely the Secretary of State’s words. west together actually saw a real-terms £4.7 billion rise.
One of the key issues that we need to resolve, whichever Indeed, my local authority, Durham County Council,
side of the Chamber we sit on, is the growing economic had a 40% budget cut—almost £250 million—at a time
divide between the north and the south. I will refer of increasing demands on services. We also have to hold
quite extensively to a new report published by Sheffield the Government to account for their industrial policy,
Hallam University, “The State of the Coalfields 2019”, or lack of it: the abolition of One North East, our
which details the situation, identifying not just problems, regional development agency; the scrapping of our Minister
but solutions. for the North—someone who could be an advocate for a
In the UK, power and finance is concentrated in the joined-up government—and of specific measures to help
centre, in the near exclusive control of Whitehall and with employment in my region; and their failure to
Westminster. This has led to decades of under-investment support the industrial base, as several Members have
in the north-east and former industrial communities mentioned, particularly the steel industry on Teesside.
such as mine. I believe that our economy and country as I ask that the Minister consider the report by Sheffield
a whole will not succeed post Brexit if we remain exclusively Hallam University’s centre for regional, economic and
reliant on the success of London and the south-east. social research. It contains some specific actions that I
Today, I will focus on the green industrial revolution think he will find are very well thought through and
and the economic benefits that it could bring to constituencies evidence based. It documents the consequences of a
such as mine— Easington, in County Durham. legacy of failure that stretches back several decades and
I am very proud of Labour’s manifesto and I thought which manifests itself in many ways. For example, health
that our Front Bencher, my hon. Friend the Member for problems are more widespread in former coalfield areas;
Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey), made a more than one third of residents aged over 16 report
terrific contribution at the start of the debate in outlining health problems lasting for more than 12 months; and
the advantages of Labour’s green industrial revolution. although the number of jobs is increasing, it is doing so
In my lifetime, the north-east was one of the engines of at only half the rate we see in the main regional centres
economic success. It powered the industrial revolution and a third of the rate we see in London, which widens
and has a long and proud history in shipbuilding, the economic inequalities in coalfield areas such as mine.
coalmining and engineering. In Murton, where I live, The current focus on the City and financial sectors of
the colliery was the mainstay of the village, providing the economy disadvantages coalfield communities, which
employment and coal for the nation’s furnaces from have a higher proportion of manufacturing jobs. Such
1834 until it stopped production in November 1991. It is the scale of the intervention needed—the Secretary of
employed my father, uncles, cousins and grandfather. State mentioned some figures—that to raise employment
Labour had planned to make the north-east a centre to the national average would require 80,000 additional
for the next industrial revolution—the green industrial residents in work in the north-east and to raise it to the
revolution. Indeed, Labour’s manifesto set out not just level of the south-east our region would require an
slogans, but specific pledges: £13 billion of new investment additional 170,000. Part-time work accounts for a third
in the green transformation fund, including plans for of all our employment, there is a skills shortage, which
Crossrail for the north, expanding our ports, particularly is not helped by education cuts, and we have fewer
on the Tyne and the Tees, a steel recycling plant in degree-level qualifications. The young and better qualified
Redcar, and manufacturing facilities to support the have little option but to move out of coalfield communities
Dogger Bank wind farms. We would have had 80,000 to meet their employment aspirations. Welfare reform
well-paid new green jobs. We heard about investment in has hit us particularly hard, with £2.4 billion having
manufacturing electric vehicles and the benefits of been taken out of our communities—money that would
expanding the electric vehicle charging network. That otherwise have been spent in the local economy.
would protect the 18,000 workers directly employed in I want to conclude with some specifics. I have obviously
the automotive sector in the north-east while reducing got a vested interest in promoting the green industrial
emissions and improving air quality. Also important is revolution. The north-east is the home of UK
the upgrading of housing—the national figure was quoted manufacturing. We have the most productive car plant
earlier—from which 1.2 million households across the in the world producing electric vehicles the world wants
north-east could benefit. It would reduce bills, eliminate to buy. I know of constituents driving polluting diesel
the vast majority of fuel poverty and make our homes vehicles who would love to switch to electric if they
healthier and more comfortable. could afford it. In my constituency, we have the commercial
It is important that we consider the record of the last space—office and factory units—to accommodate the
Government. It is not just a feeling or an impression, green businesses of the future, and at the end of this
but certainly true that former coalfield constituencies month Biffa will be opening a new £27.5 million plastic
such as mine have been at the sharp end of austerity recycling plant in my constituency. Also in my constituency
and suffered disproportionately. If we grouped together is Drilcorp, specialists in renewable technologies, heat
all the coalfield areas, some of which are now represented pumps and geothermal systems, while our East Durham
1055 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1056

[Grahame Morris] Transport, whom I am delighted to see back in his

place, for announcing at the party conference that he is
College has established a technical academy that delivers actively considering bringing forward the date for the
courses and training in engineering and manufacturing, removal of diesel and petrol vehicles from the streets
including renewable technologies of the future. The of the United Kingdom from 2040 to 2035. That is an
Minister has an opportunity—I am asking for his help—to excellent example of how different sectors in our economy
unleash the immense potential of our former coalfield may have to move at different paces to achieve net zero,
communities and of constituencies such as mine. mainly because of the state of the technological alternatives
that exist thus far. We do not want to go down the route
2.15 pm that a 2030 target, or even more ambitious targets,
would require, namely the inflicting of unprecedented
Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I join other colleagues
austerity on all our constituents. We must look with a
who have congratulated you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I
degree of realism at how we will achieve these targets.
declare at the outset that I have never been one of your
researchers. Many local authorities, in addition to Manchester,
are setting targets. Last month my own authority in
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Shropshire set a climate change strategy framework
Easington (Grahame Morris), who ably demonstrated which has been copied up and down the country. I hope
the geographic importance of the green industrial that, over the next period, the Government will try to
revolution. There are policies in the Queen’s Speech that find ways of helping authorities to fulfil their plans.
present tremendous opportunities for rejuvenation in Many people feel that the current frameworks are fine
parts of the country that one does not naturally think words, but lack action. I think that we should use the
of as being at the heart of the green revolution; the COP26 conference, which we will host at the end of this
north of England is one of them and my constituency, year, as an opportunity to develop action plans across
which I will touch on later, is another. our economy and across local authorities, so that, with
It was a particular pleasure to be here for the maiden the leadership of our Government, a clear plan is set
speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and out during the year for how to achieve the net zero
Furness (Simon Fell), with whose predecessor I worked targets that are being set throughout the country.
closely when I was in the Ministry of Defence. My hon. The House has a big opportunity to lead the debate.
Friend and I share an interest that I am sure we will We do so on occasions such as this, but also through
continue to share in this Parliament. It was also a structures that are available to us here. I pay tribute to
pleasure to listen to the maiden speech of my hon. Mary Creagh, the former Member of Parliament for
Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Gary Wakefield, who so ably chaired the Environmental Audit
Sambrook), whose constituency is one of the few in the Committee, on which I sat for the last two years. It is
west midlands that I did not visit during the recent good to see other members of the Committee in the
campaign. He made a very impressive speech. Chamber, and I hope that they will seek to serve again
I welcome the cross-party consensus on the environment in the current Parliament.
evident from both Front-Bench speeches today. We may One of Mary’s passions was highlighting inconsistencies
have differences between us over the speed and scale of and injustice. One of the inquiries that she led, very
the action required, but there is no doubt that everybody ably, focused on “fast fashion”, drawing the attention of
in this Chamber and community groups outside recognise the world to the extraordinary consumerism that currently
that the environment is a key national and international exists worldwide. Consumers are being encouraged to
challenge and that we as a Government have to lead the buy clothing that is essentially disposable—single-use—and
way and do what we can. The science is clear. If we can be produced only in sweatshops. The fact that that
continue to pump out greenhouse gases at the rate we happens not just in far-flung places around the world
are, the climate will get worse and temperatures will rise, but, I regret to say, in this country was exposed by the
with devastating consequences that we are starting to work undertaken by the Committee and led so ably by
see increasingly regularly around the world. We need to Mary.
bring that consensus to bear to put pressure on the UK Parliament does a great deal of work in scrutinising
Government to lead the way in trying to mitigate climate the measures in the Queen’s Speech, and we did significant
change and on other Governments to do more collectively. work on the draft clauses relating to the principles
There are disagreements over targets, however, as we underlying the Environment Bill. I am pleased that the
have heard already today. I was interested to note that Government’s ambition is to create a world-class regulator,
the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for which they are able to do only as a result of Brexit.
Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey), called for They will, I hope, publish the Bill very swiftly after we
more ambitious targets. I urge her to reflect on the leave on 31 January, and we will then be able to see
target in the Labour manifesto of seeking net zero by exactly how they responded to the measures that we
2030 and to compare that with the target set by the proposed in the Committee to beef up the regulator and
Mayor for Greater Manchester, the former Labour ensure that we have world-class standards. I hope that
Front Bencher, who on advice from the Tyndall Centre we will also, in the Bill, be able to respond to the view
has set a framework to achieve net zero for Greater expressed at the Dispatch Box by the Under-Secretary
Manchester, where her constituency is situated, by 2038. of State for Exiting the European Union, my hon.
It is quite possible to have a sincere endeavour to reach Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East
net zero carbon without necessarily agreeing on exactly (James Duddridge), that “no regression” would be an
what targets to set. important component of it.
Ministers have recognised that fact in setting separate Another Bill that we have been scrutinising is the
targets for their own sectors, Departments and activities. Agriculture Bill, which will also be introduced as a
I applaud my right hon Friend the Secretary of State for result of Brexit. I agree with the points made by the
1057 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1058

hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) about 1950s and 1960s who built the city’s booming car industry
the need to encourage better productivity in agriculture to housing the largest population of Syrian refugees in
so that we can use less land to produce more food, recent years, Coventry proudly continues to be a sanctuary
as well as seeking alternative uses for land in order to for people in need of a place to call home.
improve carbon capture and all the other elements I was just 14 when the global financial crisis struck
that are so important to meeting our climate change and reckless bankers sent the economy into free fall. I
commitments. Land use is a critical issue. Members was still a teenager when David Cameron and George
have mentioned peat bogs, and the Government have Osborne began to implement their austerity agenda.
ambitious plans for the planting of trees. It is yet to be Now, I know that the convention for maiden speeches is
seen how achievable those plans are, and we look forward to avoid saying anything that Members opposite will
to holding the Government to account in respect of their find very disagreeable, but I cannot do that, because my
targets. generation has only ever faced a future of rising rents,
I think that this country has every opportunity to frozen wages and diminishing opportunities. For my
lead the world in the green industrial revolution, just as whole adult life, I have only known Tory Governments
we did in previous industrial revolutions. We need to who wage war on working-class communities like mine,
take advantage of the exceptional skills that we have in cutting our services, underfunding our schools and
our universities, and in sectors such as the automobile hospitals, and saddling me and my generation with tens
industry that can lead the world. We have touched on of thousands of pounds of student debt.
electric vehicles, but not on alternative technologies The manufacturing jobs which were the backbone of
such as hydrogen vehicles. A company called Riversimple, Coventry, and which brought my family from Kashmir
which started in my constituency, has produced the first to the region, are now few and far between. The public
hydrogen fuel cell-powered car. We need to find ways, in libraries that allowed me to study and go to university
the Budget and in the comprehensive spending review, are closed. The council houses that gave working-
to support alternative technologies and the ingenuity of class families like mine access to safe, affordable homes
people in our universities and in the City of London, have been sold off. While the vast majority have seen
where we are leading on green finance, so that the UK services cut and wages stagnate over the past decade,
can lead the world in developing the right solutions to the super-rich have had their taxes cut and seen their
climate change, and we can achieve “net zero Britain” incomes soar. The gap between the ruling class and the
as soon as possible. working class has widened and is widening still, and the
response from Members opposite is, as it always has
2.25 pm
been, to divide and rule. That is what is happening when they
Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): Thank you, compare Muslim women to bank robbers, when they call
Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to gay men “tank-topped bum boys”, and when they blame
make my maiden speech today. Let me start by giving events such as the Hillsborough disaster on drunken
my heartfelt thanks to the people of Coventry South for fans. They are pitting our communities against each
putting their faith in me: I am truly honoured and other. They are diverting attention away from the billionaires
humbled to be their representative. who fund their party, dodge their taxes and rig the
Let me also thank my predecessor, Jim Cunningham, economy.
for his service to the constituency. He served Coventry I am a working class Muslim woman, and I know
for 27 years, which means that he was an MP before I that the Bullingdon boys will never be on my side or on
was even born. He has been a champion for the city, the side of the shop stewards in Coventry, the cleaners
fighting for Coventry to get its fair share of regional in Carlisle, the migrant workers in Manchester or the
investment, defending our industries, and speaking up teachers in Tottenham. I know that my Muslim brothers
for causes from the WASPI women to Rowan’s law. I and sisters, my Jewish comrades, my friends in the
know that Jim was renowned in the House for the Gypsy, Traveller and Roma communities, and people of
frequency of his interventions. As the new Member for all faiths and none, are safer when we unite to defeat the
Coventry South, I aim to continue that tradition, and far right, even as this Government have given it new-found
I wish him well in his retirement. confidence. And I know that a Government who abandon
As for Coventry, Mr Deputy Speaker, did you know refugee children abroad will just as quickly abandon
that on several occasions the city has been the capital of working class children in Britain, where one in three of
England? As far back as 1404, Henry IV summoned a them already live in poverty. This is a Government of
Parliament in Coventry. Given that we will have to the few; they will never be for the many.
move out of this place for renovations, may I suggest The prospect of five more years of this Government
that we take Parliament back to Coventry to put power is almost enough to make me despair, but my generation
back in the midlands? It is a city fit for the prestige. and I cannot afford to despair. If we do, by the time I
From the beautiful cathedral to the 49 hectares of the reach middle age it will be too late, and the climate
beautiful War Memorial Park, Coventry South is a emergency will have become the climate catastrophe. I
constituency of scenic beauty. come here with a message from my generation and my
Coventry is a city of rich culture too, and I look constituents: we have no intention of letting that happen.
forward to its hosting UK City of Culture 2021. It is a We have seen Australia burn and Indonesia drown. We
city with a history of challenging convention, of struggle, have seen our Earth teeter on the brink of ruin. We have
and of solidarity. From being home to two universities, heard the warnings of scientists. We know where the
as well as two-tone music—bands such as The Selecter blame lies: it is with the 100 companies that are responsible
and The Specials—to the founding of one of the first for 70% of global pollution. It is with the billionaires
Indian Workers Association branches, it has been at the who got rich polluting our rivers and pumping out
forefront of the arts, anti-racist organising and industrial carbon. It is with an economic system that puts the
militancy. From welcoming the Irish migrants in the profits of the rich above the needs of the people.
1059 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1060

[Zarah Sultana] Wind power has played a significant role in our success
thus far, and we are now the world’s biggest producer of
Make no mistake: the climate crisis is a capitalist power from offshore wind. Last year it contributed a
crisis, and the climate struggle is a class struggle across fifth of our electricity generation, overtaking nuclear
borders. Whether you are in Coventry or Canberra, for the first time in our history. This is progress. I fully
Doncaster or Delhi, if you are working class you will support the Government’s commitment to increase our
suffer the worst effects of floods, fires, droughts and output to 40 GW by 2030, and I fully anticipate that
devastation while the rich build ever-higher walls to this will become a reality, given that the cost of wind
protect themselves. That is what is coming unless we energy has fallen year on year through contracts for
take bold action. That is what will happen unless we difference.
unite working people across borders to say that our However, we need a diverse energy mix to ensure our
lives are more important than anyone’s profits. It is long-term energy security. I am concerned by reports of
what will happen unless we put the power in the hands the wake effect, a process whereby turbines block one
of the working class to put people and planet first. another, and of blockage, where the physical wind farm
This is the urgent call of our times: an international slows the wind down as it approaches. This, combined
green new deal to transition from disaster capitalism to with the irregularity of the wind, means that the UK
a new society created on the principles of equality, needs diversity in its energy output.
freedom and justice, building green industries providing Solar has a huge part to play, and I am proud that
good unionised jobs, democratising our economy and 99% of all existing solar panels have been installed since
eradicating poverty. That new society has an old name. 2010. Locally, West Sussex County Council is leading
It is a name that inspired past generations in the fight the way with a range of projects such as the development
against mass unemployment, war and fascism. It is the of two solar farms in my constituency at Tangmere and
name that people gave to a decent, liveable, healthy future Westhampnett. The latter has been built on a former
on this planet. That name is socialism. landfill site and was the first such public farm to be
Ten years ago, I was sitting my GCSEs at school. I built without any central subsidy. I hope that Government
was a teenager, and I never dreamed that I would be colleagues will look to sites such as these that are
here today. In 10 years’ time, at the start of the next inappropriate for alternative development and consider
decade, I want to look teenagers in the eye and say with replicating these examples. The council also runs a solar
pride, “My generation faced 40 years of Thatcherism schools programme, and 80 schools across the county
and we ended it. We faced rising racism and we defeated now collectively produce the same energy as the
it. We faced a planet in peril and we saved it.” We have Westhampnett solar farm, saving an average of £2,000 per
our work cut out, but together we can do it. school on bills. Altogether, the council’s renewable
programme brings in a revenue stream that exceeds
2.33 pm £1 million a year.
Government and business have driven these changes
Gillian Keegan (Chichester) (Con): May I congratulate that have transformed our energy market. I believe that
you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on your re-election to the we need to do more to develop and invest in emerging
Chair? It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for technologies, particularly at sea, and as an island nation
Coventry South (Zarah Sultana). Well done! There is we are well placed to lead the way. I was particularly
something else about Coventry South—it was also the interested in my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow
home to my great-grandmother, or Granny in Coventry, and Furness’s suggestions about investment in tidal
as we used to call her. I welcome another working-class technologies that could transform his constituency. Creating
voice to this Chamber, alongside myself—I grew up in a renewable and diverse energy grid is crucial as we
Knowsley and Merseyside—and my hon. Friends the move into the next decade, when most of our nuclear
Members for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell) and for power stations are set to be retired. Beyond this, the
Birmingham, Northfield (Gary Sambrook), who made Government are rightly tackling emissions from cars
excellent maiden speeches. It is clear that they will be and looking to phase out the internal combustion engine
strong champions for improving the lives of people in from our lives by 2040. To that end, electric vehicles
their areas, proving that power is in the hands of the are set to replace them, which will increase demand on
working class—just that it is on this side of the Chamber. the grid.
The UK started the industrial revolution that changed Chichester District Council recently installed eight
the face of the world, and since then, all major economies new charging sites across the district, thanks to a
have been powered by coal, oil and gas. But today we £58,000 grant from the Office for Low Emission Vehicles.
stand on the precipice of change, and I believe that the Our council is not alone: we have made progress nationally,
UK is once again in a position to lead by example and and there are now more charging locations than petrol
ignite a global green industrial revolution. We are already stations in the UK. Despite this, there are still more
on this path, having decarbonised faster than any other than 100 local authorities with fewer than 10 public
developed economy, with renewables up from just charging devices per 100,000 people. I therefore welcome
6.1% when we took office to nearly 40% today. To put the £400 million charging infrastructure investment fund,
that into perspective, 75% of our electricity came from and the consultation on requiring charge points to be
coal in 2010, but last year it was just 2%. That is a built into all new homes with a parking space. Getting
remarkable feat, and I want to pay tribute to colleagues this right is not only a necessary piece of our net zero
across the House who have championed this change. puzzle; it will also improve air quality. Of course, we
Last year, we committed to continue this journey could go faster, and the Transport Secretary has announced
with our landmark commitment to a net zero carbon that he will look to move the petrol and diesel phase-out
economy by 2050—or sooner; we are allowed to beat date forward from 2040 to 2035. Where we can, we will
our targets, and as we are Conservatives, we often do. improve our targets.
1061 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1062

Infrastructure is only part of the problem. More the figures look an awful lot less impressive when we
needs to be done to incentivise people to get an electric factor in consumption emissions. When we do that, we
vehicle in the first place. As the hon. Member for see that emissions have fallen by just 10% over the past
Salford and Eccles (Rebecca Long Bailey) mentioned, 20 years, which is nowhere near enough. What is more,
electric vehicles are expensive, so I ask the Government historical reductions are no indicator of future progress.
to help reduce the up-front costs associated with these Coal is now all but gone from the power sector, meaning
cars by extending the plug-in car grant. Furthermore, I that the biggest source of reductions so far has now
ask them to consider implementing a levy on new petrol been exhausted, and there is little sign of the policy
and diesel cars that could be used to fund incentives for required to ensure that the necessary reductions continue.
people going electric, so that we can make the shift The truth is that if the Government’s green revolution
happen faster. includes spending on new roads, bailing out failing
Chichester District Council is doing its part. It already airlines, and promoting more airport expansion, they
operates two electric vehicles for its daily enforcement will remain part of the problem, not the solution.
patrols, and I will have further cause to speak about its A target of 2050 is not leadership. When someone’s
work as it implements a climate emergency action plan house is on fire, they do not dial 999 and ask for a fire
that aims to make a 10% carbon reduction in the engine in 30 years’ time; they want the fire engine right
district year on year from now until 2025. Again, we now because the crisis is happening right now. Targets
can go faster if many more councils follow this example. on their own do not bring down emissions; action does.
I am sure that the council will also consider the steps However, the Committee on Climate Change warns that
that we can and need to take to make existing and new “actions to date have fallen short of what is needed for the
homes more energy efficient as we move towards zero previous targets and well short of those required for the net-zero
carbon housing, which will be vital. target”.
This Government have proved that we can grow our While we are at it, let us examine what the “net” in net
economy and tackle climate change. The real winners in zero means. It means positively heroic—I would rather
the industrial revolution will be those who take the lead say criminally reckless—assumptions about the potential
early on, as we are doing. We have already created for negative emission technologies to suck carbon out
400,000 green jobs, and more will follow. The new of the atmosphere. Such technologies are almost entirely
climate economy project has forecast that bold action unproven, and even unknown in some cases, so let me
on climate change globally could deliver £20 trillion in be clear about what we are doing when we rely on those
economic benefits over this decade, so there is even a net negative emission technologies: we are simply passing
business case at this point. Later this year, we will the buck to our children and leaving it to them to sort
welcome the world to Glasgow to talk about climate out. That is not a moral position.
action at COP26, and I want our message to be simple: Our targets also rely on our taking far more than
“We in the UK are taking a lead and so can you.” our fair share of the global carbon pie than we are
entitled to. We are on course to emit around 2% of the
2.41 pm remaining safe carbon budget, even though our population
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I will accounts for only 4.9% of the global total. Not only
start with a few words about the maiden speeches that that, but we have taken far more than our fair share for
we have had the privilege of hearing this afternoon, and decades. We have emitted around 4.5% of the world’s
I single out that by the hon. Member for Coventry historical fossil fuels and industry emissions. Again,
South (Zarah Sultana). I completely agreed with her that is around five times our fair share of the historic
powerful and uncompromising statement about climate carbon budget given our percentage of world population.
change and austerity, and I completely agree that Parliament That legacy of colonialism has to stop. Let me be clear
should be moved out of Westminster. I am perfectly that intergenerational and international justice are at
happy to check out Coventry South as a possible new the heart of the climate issue, and the UK is failing on
venue, but we should be decentralising far more of the both counts.
institutions of government and Parliament. We must also be clear that the primacy of GDP
There is new evidence every day of the increasing growth as the overarching priority for our economy is
scale of the climate emergency. Just yesterday, scientific the elephant in the room. Our house is on fire and that
analysis showed that ocean temperatures have hit a elephant is blocking the door to the emergency exit and
record high as the rate at which our planet is heating devouring our efforts to decarbonise. Take the IPCC
increases. Yet, despite the weight of the irrefutable and report that tells us that we have to reach net zero by
overwhelming evidence, the UK continues to do far too 2050 globally: during that period—the next 30 years—the
little, far too late to cut greenhouse gas emissions from global economy is set to triple in size. That means three
every sector of our economy. In a year when the COP26 times more production and consumption each year. It
climate talks will be hosted in Glasgow, it is time to will be hard enough to decarbonise the existing economy
demonstrate real climate leadership, not just talk about in such a short timescale, so the idea that we will be able
it. While I welcome the Government’s decision to invest to do it three times over is fantasy. If we carry on with
in a green industrial revolution, I will set out how their growth as usual, halving emissions by 2030, as the
approach is not up to the task in three fundamental IPCC has made clear we need to do, would require
ways. decarbonisation of the economy at its current size at
We need Ministers to start speaking the truth. The Prime 11% a year. That is five times faster than historical rates
Minister claimed that the UK is leading the world on of decarbonisation and about three times faster than
tackling climate change, and we have heard the same even the most optimistic scientists project is possible.
thing from other Members on the Front Bench, yet they Let me explode the myths surrounding the possibilities
have already been pulled up on that claim on several of endlessly extending the concept of green growth,
occasions, with people pointing out that, for example, which relies upon the assumption that we can achieve
1063 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1064

[Caroline Lucas] our food and the way we work. It will create jobs and
generate income, including tax revenues for the Government.
the full and adequate decoupling of economic growth It will be a real revolution that enables us to transform
from environmental harm. Although decoupling is our society so that it is fairer, more democratic and
undoubtedly useful and necessary and has occurred at works better for all of us, here and around the world,
certain times and in certain places, green growth cannot while safeguarding and restoring the ecological systems
reduce resource use on anywhere near the scale required on which we all depend.
to deal with global environmental breakdown and to With the window for making a difference rapidly closing,
keep global warming below the target of 1.5° C above what we do in the next 18 months will be literally life
pre-industrial levels. changing. Quite honestly, standing here and thinking
The IPCC has set out one lifeline scenario that does about what that really means for the next parliamentary
not rely on speculative and harmful negative emission Session, we cannot afford any more pretence about the
technologies, and it is our emergency exit from climate scale of the challenge we face or the idea that just
breakdown. So what does it look like? Fundamentally, tinkering with business as usual will get us to where we
it is about scaling down material consumption in the need to be, because it simply will not.
richer countries by 20% globally, and with the richest The world’s addiction to fossil fuels started here in
among those richer countries leading the way. This the UK as the birthplace of the industrial revolution.
cannot be about preventing poorer countries from We have caused the fifth highest emissions of any
developing; it has to be about the richer countries, and country in the world. We have built our economy, our
the richer people in them, doing their fair share. prosperity and our society on the overconsumption
Transitioning away from the growth dogma is not about of finite resources, which has trashed the planet and
hurting people’s welfare—quite the opposite. It is about taken away the life chances of people in other parts of
placing wellbeing centre stage, reducing inequalities, this world.
cutting waste and inefficiency, and prioritising quality Our share of causing this emergency is vast, and we
of life over quantity of things. Instead of measuring must now do our fair share in addressing it.
progress in terms of GDP growth alone, we need to
shift to indicators that tell us an awful lot more about
whether people have high levels of wellbeing, whether 2.51 pm
there is clean air and clean water, whether we have a safe Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) (Con): I commend my
atmosphere, and whether we are reducing the gaping hon. Friends the Members for Barrow and Furness
inequalities that diminish us all. (Simon Fell) and for Birmingham, Northfield (Gary
That is where the proposals for a green new deal Sambrook) and the hon. Member for Coventry South
come in. My colleague the hon. Member for Norwich (Zarah Sultana) for their maiden speeches today.
North and I—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for I am proud to be here representing the beautiful
Norwich South (Clive Lewis)—I will flagellate myself constituency of East Surrey. I begin by paying tribute to
when I get back to my office—and I have worked on a my predecessor, Sam Gyimah. We have more in common
cross-party basis on a private Member’s Bill, which we than representing East Surrey: we are both the children
intend to reintroduce in this parliamentary Session, that of immigrant doctors, and I, too, am 5 feet 4½ inches.
will set out what the green new deal needs to do. In the Although we may have slightly different views on Brexit,
process of transforming the infrastructure of our society I know he is passionate about the prosperity of this
at the speed and scale that the science demands, we have country, which both our families now call home. I am
a once-in-a-generation opportunity to fix an economic sure the House will agree that he made many important
model that is failing the vast majority of people in this contributions in this place as Childcare Minister, as
country. At the heart of the green new deal is the Prisons Minister and as Universities Minister.
recognition that the current climate, nature, and inequality Sam was right when he said, “In East Surrey we stand
crises are all driven by how our economy and financial on the shoulders of giants.” From Geoffrey Howe to
system is managed and that that has benefited a small Lord Melbourne and Lord Palmerston, the list is long
number of people and a few giant corporations, with and distinguished. I would like, however, to make special
the price being paid by the rest of us and by the Earth mention of Peter Ainsworth. From his work as shadow
that we share. Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural
That situation will not be fixed by an acceleration of Affairs to his expert chairmanship of the Environmental
business as usual, because business as usual is what got Audit Committee and his work on the board of the
us into this situation. Unless the Government’s so-called Environment Agency, I can safely say that I stand on
decade of renewal is targeted on the transformation the shoulders of a very green giant indeed.
needed to move us to a world beyond carbon, all that East Surrey is known for its local beauty. There are
investment will be washed away long before the decade four local nature reserves, eight sites of special scientific
is out. What is required is a redistribution not only of interest and over a third of the constituency is in an
resources but, crucially, of real power, starting with area of outstanding natural beauty or of great landscape
those communities that have been most excluded from value. Those who walk through the North Downs or the
prosperity. High Weald are met with chalk downs, rolling hillsides,
The transition we need is not just to net zero but to lowland meadows and woodlands.
a new kind of economy. The green new deal is a Our vibrant village spirit is evident in the communities
transformational programme to transform everything of Tatsfield, Warlingham, Woldingham, Lingfield, Felbridge
from the way we produce and consume energy to the and many more besides. I hope to be a champion in this
way we heat and cool our homes, the way we travel, the House for preserving and protecting this treasured way
way we connect our communities, the way we grow of life.
1065 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1066

In Outwood, near Godstone, work began in 1665 on This debate, which is both timely and long overdue, is
one of the oldest working British windmills. The owner about how our country can address the climate emergency
is said to have watched the great fire of London rage while realising the economic benefits of developing a
25 miles away from its roof, and I am proud that what new settlement for communities that feel frustrated with
East Surrey helped to pioneer in the renewable energy the current offer. I do not claim to be any kind of
sector in the 17th century has now become one of the climate expert—I have read the briefings, as other hon.
most remarkable success stories in the UK today. Not Members have—but I can see the difference. There is a
only are we the world’s leader in offshore wind, but spectrum of views on the climate emergency in this
seven of the 10 biggest wind farms in Europe are right House. I do not claim to have had the ability of the hon.
here in the UK. I commend the ambitious environment Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) to
Bill proposed in Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech to forward foresee it, but I can see what is in front of my eyes. I
this work, and I look forward to seeing the green worry that some hon. Members are blind to what is
measures in the upcoming Budget that will undoubtedly staring us right in the face.
build on it. We all need to learn, to be educated and to form
For East Surrey to continue fulfilling its role as the solutions together to address the climate emergency and
lungs of London, I hope to secure much-needed investment to build a shared future. None of us can escape the
in local infrastructure for vital improvements to roads— extreme weather conditions or the impact of flooding
tackling potholes is crucial to local productivity—and and coastal change. Parts of the planet are burning
to public transport, particularly rail. More than half of today. There is a financial cost, but the human and
the area’s working population commutes to places like wildlife cost is significant and the suffering is evident.
London, Crawley and Gatwick, yet we have some of the We are seeing water shortages, we are seeing the effect
most congested rail lines and roads in the UK. Making on natural ecosystems, biodiversity and coral reefs, and
sure that people can successfully get to work and to we are seeing the impact on crop production. And we
public services is not only good for the environment and all know it is always the poorest in society who pay the
the wellbeing of residents but ensures that our local price when crops fail or when water runs short.
towns—Horley, Caterham and Oxted—can continue to It is our collective responsibility to try to find a
thrive. solution. The movement has been significant, whether
I had the considerable pleasure of working with the in the large-scale protests by Extinction Rebellion or in
Chief Secretary to the Treasury, my right hon. Friend the localised protests by schoolchildren on Fridays.
the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Rishi Sunak), on Young people in Manchester have actively participated,
the 2019 spending review, which saw record investment and they want their voices to be heard because they
in schools, in the police and in the NHS. Now I am on have a bigger stake in the future.
the other side of the table, I wholeheartedly and unreservedly I really worry about the Government’s approach, as
welcome the increased funding, particularly where those they have not invited Extinction Rebellion for a conversation
funds might land in East Surrey. I will be working hard to seek common ground. Instead of building bridges,
to make sure that the initial groundwork of that national the Government are building walls. We need a common
announcement makes a meaningful difference to classrooms, shared vision on how best to address this emergency.
GP surgeries and police officers on the ground. That is a missed opportunity.
I would like to mention my grandmother, who may I believe a different way is possible, so I did not turn a
be the single greatest emblem of Conservative values I blind eye to the protestors in Parliament Square. I
know. She was a teacher in India who, in my memory, wanted a conversation with them about their views in
took her fashion lead firmly from the Queen. She raised order to seek common ground on the solutions, so we
seven children with little in terms of resources, but with had a meeting in 1 Parliament Street. I said, “This is
a strong sense that you can achieve the impossible with your Parliament. Instead of protesting outside, come
hard work and determination. Her children were doctors, inside and have a conversation to see where we can
teachers and grade 8 musicians who are now scattered make progress together.” One of the people I met
all across the globe. If she could see me here today, in during those conversations was a man called Paul, who
“the noblest government in the world,” I am sure she is commonly known as the “tree lawyer” because of his
would tell me to work hard, to be determined and to real passion for protecting our ancient trees and woodlands.
achieve the impossible.
The aim of that meeting was not only to connect, but
Politicians today have a near impossible task. We live to protect. The first challenge is: how do we connect
in a world of changing technology, behaviour, demographics everyday people with the environment? We talked about
and, as has been the subject of many excellent speeches the challenges and how people are sometimes very
today, environment. In this place I hope to contribute in disconnected from the environment, and about the
a small way to preparing this great country for the interventions, sometimes small ones, that we can make
future to come. to connect people with the natural environment around
them. We might dismiss some of those suggestions as
2.56 pm
being simple, but I was inspired by some of the ideas.
Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): For example, when someone is born or given their
It is a pleasure to follow the maiden speech of the hon. citizenship, why not, on that document, have a tree or
Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho) and all the woodland that is planted for them, and, thus really put
other fantastic maiden speeches. I think back to four roots in the ground? Why not fight to say that every
years ago, when I was in the same position, as it is a child will have the ability to look up to a clear night sky
huge responsibility to make a maiden speech. I encourage or to walk to school without breathing in toxic air that
hon. Members to get their printed copy from Hansard, could eventually kill them? We see that happen in this
as it is quite a treat to take back home. country, where people are literally dying as a result of
1067 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1068

[Jim McMahon] components for the world’s first computer, of British

Aerospace, which made the Lancaster bomber, and of
the quality of the air. Why not make urban environments Platt Brothers, which had one of the largest engineering
more attractive and much more connected? We talk plants in the world. Although those have closed, the
about connecting the natural environment and about skills and values of manufacturing and engineering jobs
protecting what we have got, but in towns such as are still very much in our local economy, and that
Oldham, where terraced streets and industrial land have should be the foundation for the future. And we feel
been built up to make the town we see today, many this—we are the gateway to the Pennines, so although
communities are denied access to good-quality green, Oldham is an urban town on the doorstep of Manchester,
environmental space. We need to reinvest in that to we are a stone’s throw from the countryside and we
connect people with the natural environment. recognise the value that that has.
I am proud to say that in Oldham the council is doing When planning for the future, we are all very short-term
that; this week, it announced plans for a project called in this place. We are all focused on the next election and
“Northern Roots”, whereby we would have an eco-park the next cycle, and it is hugely damaging for the country
of 160 acres right in Oldham town centre and beyond, and the planet when we behave in that way. The challenge
into the countryside. Another suggestion was for worldwide I lay down today is not that we prepare for the next
twinning. After the second world war, we made a massive election or Queen’s Speech, but that we think about a
effort to ensure that towns and cities in this country child being born today in this country. We need to think
were connected to our counterparts in Europe. Why not that that child will live to see the next century. We need
do the same today for climate, so that children in to think about the kind of life they will have, from the
Oldham can be connected with children in Bangladesh, moment they are born in their community, to when they
and see the human impact of climate change and what go to school, when they start out on their adult life and
it means for children of their age going to school? when they enter old age, and about the type of care they
will need and the type of society they will live in. If we
We also need to protect what we have got. Paul’s
think about a child being born today, we will collectively
ambition was to give ancient trees the protection they
make very different decisions from those we often end
need, but perhaps people just want protection for the
up voting for in the Lobby. Let me make it clear that I
green belt, to make sure that those who live in an urban
believe strongly that the foundations are in place in this
environment have access to good-quality green space.
country to thrive and rebuild on the back of a green
The Government need to do far more, first, to update
revolution. The test for me as to whether Britain thrives—
the population data to make sure that local planning
Members would expect me to say this, because I represent
authorities are planning on the basis of the most accurate
Oldham, Chadderton and Royton—is whether towns
and up-to-date data, and, secondly, to ensure that we
such as mine can be part of that journey. That is the
have a proper fund in place to build on brownfield sites.
challenge for the Government, and they need to come
A town such as Oldham has acres and acres of dirty
forward with concrete examples of how we can connect
brownfield sites that are contaminated. They are so
people, so that they really feel they have a stake in the
expensive to build on that it is far easier for a developer
future.
to build on green space. We need a new deal for towns
such as Oldham so that they can build on brownfield sites, 3.6 pm
where the community are crying out for new investment,
instead of having that impact on the green belt. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I fully accept that
mankind is changing the earth’s climate. I have always
Importantly, we also need to connect people with worried about how we are altering the air we breathe,
opportunities. When we talk about the type of interventions but I feel our actions are now turning the weather. I
and behavioural change needed for our environment, realise that climate is cyclical; there was a little ice age
we are asking people to make a sacrifice—we are asking from late medieval times until the 1850s or thereabouts,
the Government to introduce a new tax. What we really and the Thames froze over and ice fairs were held. I also
need to do is connect people with the opportunities that believe that when I was a little boy, not very long ago, it
exist if we take concerted action. So the green revolution, was much colder in the winter—that might just be in my
the industrial revolution for our economy, is really mind, but I felt it was more icy. There is too much
important. People recognise that this is an opportunity evidence of ferocious world weather nowadays for us to
to have decent, well-paid, secure and skilled jobs. ignore what is happening.
Unfortunately, when people talk about a town such as Health is definitely being affected too. For instance,
Oldham, they often talk about the north as though it is according to Bromley Council health people, in one
some kind of distant land. They talk about a town that recent year there were 60 deaths across the six wards in
once was and not as one that has a stake in the future, my constituency because of long-term exposure to polluted
but those people could not be further from the truth. air. I agree that we have started to tackle the problem,
When I look at a town such as Oldham, I see that we are and we have had some success: carbon emissions have,
still innovating, creating and making things that change apparently, been reduced by 25% in the past 10 years,
the world. Behind those dirty roller shutters people are and that is great; and all coal-fired generating stations
changing the world in towns such as Oldham, and that will be gone in the United Kingdom by 2025. It is also
provides a foundation for this revolution. really good news that we are the world leader in offshore
People in Oldham want to know that they have a power generation. We have increased renewable energy
stake in the future. They are sick of demanding that the generation sixfold in the past 10 years. In 2018, renewable
Government listen to them and of asking for a fairer sources of electricity generation supplied 33% of our
share. If we just continue that conversation, we are not electricity needs, which is up from 6.9% in 2010. This is
capitalising on the skills that still exist in these towns. all good news. More and more people are buying and
My town was the home of Ferranti, which made the using cars powered by electricity, but they are damn
1069 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1070

expensive. By 2040, diesel and petrol cars should be particulate matter has been welcomed by the World Health
almost off our roads, so it seems the future for our Organisation as an example for the rest of the world
vehicles will be electricity, but let us not forget hydrogen, to follow.
which is another source that can be harnessed to run As a good boy, I am now skipping through my pages,
vehicles. A heck of a lot of investigation as to how that Mr Deputy Speaker, to make a final point. We produce
can happen is being undertaken by the car companies. about 1% to 2% of the world’s greenhouse gases. If we
Of course, our Government have a major part to play became carbon neutral right now, it might not make
in reducing carbon emissions, and we have too; on much difference, but that should not stop us doing it
27 June last year, Parliament amended the Climate —we can become an example to the rest of the world—and
Change Act 2008 to include the commitment to net zero the rest of the world is starting to follow and to deal with
emissions by 2050. That is excellent news. Some say—I climate change. Bring it on: let us change the way we
accept this—that we could get there earlier, and let us live so that the future is bright for those who follow us.
hope that that is the case, but at least we have a target. It
would be superb if could get there as soon as possible. If 3.14 pm
we want to get to zero carbon emissions very fast, we
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is
have to accept the penalties: giving up our cars, diesel
always a massive joy to follow the hon. Member for
and petrol; travelling only by public transport; stopping
Beckenham (Bob Stewart). It is also great to see you
flying off to exotic locations in aeroplanes; and changing
back in your place, Mr Deputy Speaker; congratulations
our central heating systems.
on your re-elevation.
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): My hon. Friend is It has been a genuine privilege to sit through the
making an excellent point, and he alights on the issue of maiden speeches by the hon. Members for Coventry
changing our heating systems. Does he agree that we South (Zarah Sultana), for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho)
need to incentivise, within the tax structure, the building and for Birmingham, Northfield (Gary Sambrook), to
of ground-source heat pumps and air-source heat pumps whom I pay tribute. I wish to single out my new neighbour,
to ensure that they can replace traditional fossil fuel the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell),
systems and get our carbon emissions down? who made an excellent maiden speech and referred in
particular to the need—I say this in hearing range of
Bob Stewart: I certainly do, and I want it to happen in the Secretary of State for Transport—to strip Arriva
my house as soon as possible. Northern of its franchise, to make sure that we have a
We are decarbonising our economy faster, apparently, local train service that actually runs some trains.
than any other G20 country, and we have reduced our I remember giving my maiden speech; the terrifying
emissions by 29% in the past decade, but here is the fact is that I have a copy of it on a VCR tape in the
point: every breath we take is full of something called garage. That is a reminder that I am indeed an old git,
particulates, which, to be honest, I did not know much Mr Deputy Speaker.
about until recently. These particulates—particularly The green industrial revolution is nothing if not an
something called particulate matter 2.5—are about ambitious title, and so it needs to be if we are to head
200 times smaller than a grain of sand, so they just float off the existential threat of catastrophic climate change.
through the air and go into our lungs. They pass into Ambition is indeed what we need, but although we can
our bloodstream and end up somewhere in our brain, give something an impressive and ambitious title, it is
or any of our other organs. I am told—of course, I am unlikely to earn a lasting legacy unless it actually delivers.
no expert, and I suspect that very few of us in the House Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s new deal is not still invoked
are experts—that this causes illness and death. Having today because of its catchy title, but because of the
looked at the January 2019 report by the Department good it achieved. We marvel at the Victorian expansion
for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I understand of the railways not because the Victorians did good
that only 12% of particulate matter comes from vehicles. spin, but because the network was actually built. Nations
are never built on public relations stunts.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): I am grateful to the Members can call me a glass-half-empty person if
hon. Gentleman for mentioning particulate matter, which they like, but my fear for the Government is that they
is an issue of air pollution, but we should differentiate will make two significant mistakes as they decide how
air pollution and climate change. They are two separate they are going to use their new majority. First, in order
matters and we need to tackle them differently. to mask the damage that the UK’s leaving the world’s
biggest market will inevitably do to our economy and
Bob Stewart: I accept that, and that I am no expert, public sector, it is likely that the Government will max-out
so I accept the hon. Lady’s point of view, but particulate the credit card on revenue spending in a way that makes
matter does have an impact on us all. Around 13% comes the recent Labour manifesto look fiscally conservative
from industrial processes and 38% comes from wood by comparison. Secondly, they will talk about big
burning and coal fires. That is quite a lot—more than infrastructure investment, both the green and the not-
comes from vehicles. I am looking up at the clock so-green varieties, but in reality their fear of big government
because I promised the Deputy Speaker that I would be means they will not deliver anything that will make a
finished in under 10 minutes—and I will. true difference. In other words, the Government will
I like the clean air strategy that was published in show largesse when they should observe restraint, and
January last year: it is a good, bold new goal. We have restraint when they need to be ambitious. I hope I am
to think carefully about using wood-burning stoves—I wrong, because what we need is to be wise on revenue
do not use the fireplace in my house anymore—and spending and ambitious on capital, particularly when it
having open fires, and farms will have to change the comes to green infrastructure. We must make the big
way they do business. The move on the reduction of strategic decisions needed to fight climate change.
1071 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1072

[Tim Farron] spend in the north-west per head of population is still

barely half that in London, despite the promises that
In South Lakeland, we see nature changing before were made when the northern powerhouse was first
our very eyes, as climate change takes place with horrific established. I will continue—I will have to continue—to
consequences. Our communities are still reeling, four fight the cuts to individual bus services. I will continue
years on, from the devastating floods of Storm Desmond. to stand with, and work with, the community to find
Indeed, in the past decade or so we have been hit by alternative solutions, just as we are currently doing for
three floods, each one of them classified as a one-in-200-year Arnside, Levens, Cartmel, Hincaster and Kendal where
event. Storm Desmond flooded 7,500 homes and more we have replaced the 552 and the 530 services, but let us
than 1,000 businesses. We have to mitigate the impact of be honest, all that will do is lessen the decline.
climate change on families and businesses while building Bus services are essential to life for rural communities
the infrastructure to prevent a climate catastrophe. That such as ours. They are also key to Cumbria’s vibrant
is why Kendal’s flood prevention scheme must be delivered. tourism industry. No one could or would deny that the
All three phases of the flood scheme are now fully funded Lake District and the surrounding communities are
and I am glad that, after much pressure, the biggest utterly awesome. It is a national treasure and a source of
concerns about the scheme have now been answered. In joy to many more than just those of us who are privileged
the place of every tree that must be removed as part of enough to live among those lakes, mountains and dales.
the scheme, six new ones will be planted in the town, and
Cumbria’s Lake District is Britain’s biggest visitor
many of them will be semi-mature at the point of planting.
destination outside London. Some 16 million people
I was there the morning after Storm Desmond, and visited us last year alone, but 83% of tourists travel to us
in the weeks after. I saw people’s lives ruined; families by car. However, we know that, with the right interventions
left destitute; and businesses wiped out. Even today, and conditions, our visitors will travel sustainably. Public
there are children who are still unable to sleep any time bus transport is a key component of that, alongside rail,
it begins to rain. I could not look people in the eye on boats, bikes and, of course, walking in the hills. Improved
Appleby Road, Shap Road, Sandylands, Ann Street or bus services could alleviate pressure on the roads that
Mintsfeet Road if I did not do everything in my power become clogged with the cars of those visiting.
to deliver them some kind of protection and some kind
of peace of mind. After four years of promises—four The Government keep ignoring the plight of rural
years of fear whenever it pours; four years of incalculable communities. A so-called green industrial revolution in
strain on mental health for the old and young alike—how London or Manchester simply will not do. We would
dare I claim to represent them if I do not see the flood love it if they stopped ignoring us, and instead commission
defences delivered? The reality is that we are too late to a truly ambitious and comprehensive rural bus service
prevent climate change, but we have perhaps a dozen to exceed anything that we have seen before, even 35 years
years to avoid a major climate catastrophe with even ago before the deregulation which started to decline. It
more appalling human consequences. will be an investment not only that revives rural communities
and sees a huge reduction in the use of cars locally, but
The main issue that I wish to focus on in the next few
that boosts our economy and increases access to jobs.
moments is the revolution that we need in public transport.
Over the past 30 years, Governments of all colours have My proposal today is that the Minister should ensure
allowed funding for bus provision to evaporate. Our the direct commissioning through Transport for the
communities in South Lakeland have done a spectacular North of a comprehensive, affordable, reliable rural bus
job in putting together community bus services to plug network in Cumbria—a network that will be a substantial
some of the gaps caused by this attrition of Government step towards ensuring that the northern powerhouse
funding, most notably the Dales bus service in Sedbergh actually serves the rural north.
and Dent, which does a wonderful job connecting those Finally, if our efforts to tackle climate change are
Dales communities with Kendal and the surrounding going to come anywhere near something that could be
communities. We have fought recently to keep the 552 and classified as a revolution, we need to transform public
the 530 bus services. These are great victories. I am transport interconnection and that connection between
immensely proud of them, but they are short-term buses and trains. The main public transport route to
solutions at best. They are sticking plasters, when what the Lake District is the Lakes line. Back in 2017, the
is needed is ambitious change. Government cancelled the planned electrification of
It is utterly ludicrous that bus services in London the Lakes line on the basis of a massive and flawed
receive a £722 million annual subsidy, when in Cumbria overestimation of the project costs. This was and remains
we receive nothing at all—not a single penny. The lack a huge let-down for communities around the lakes, and
of subsidy has a catastrophic impact on fares, and the yet electrification of the Lakes line is the easiest
extortionate prices make commuting by bus a massive electrification project in the country. The 12-mile route
challenge, especially for lower-paid workers. How is it carries hundreds of thousands of passengers each year,
right, Mr Speaker, that the 5 mile journey from Ambleside but it could carry four times as many if we introduced a
to the neighbouring community of Grasmere costs passing loop at Burneside so that we could run a
£4.90, while a journey of equivalent length in London half-hourly service, and if it were electrified, it would
costs £1.50? If we are to entertain any hope of significantly reduce its carbon emissions.
revolutionising public transport, the Government need If the Government are serious about tackling climate
to look beyond the M25—well beyond the M25. Indeed, change, they need to undo their foolish cuts to the
it may come as a surprise to some in Government that electrification project, and the Lakes line is the perfect
the north does not stop at junction 32 of the M6. place for the Government to begin a green U-turn to
There is much to recommend the northern powerhouse, reverse their mistakes of recent years. The Lakes line is
with two slight caveats: first, it is not much of a powerhouse; short, but it is iconic. It carries significant numbers and
and secondly, it is not very northern. The transport could carry so many more. I plead with the Government
1073 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1074

to make their actions match their words. They should Vicky Ford: I will come on to exactly that topic a little
not just plug the gaps in public transport, but instead later.
revolutionise the system. They should speak not of This year is a unique opportunity, with the UK hosting
subsidies, but of investment that multiplies its value in the world global climate change conference. I will come
the economy of the rural north. Targets are dangerous to the issue of transport emissions in a minute.
if they are simply a fig leaf to cover up a failure to act in It is really important that we are ambitious in the
the present. The Government must act now, and we will targets we set, but it is also vital that we bring people
wait to see whether they do. with us. I look forward to being an observer at the
citizens’ assembly on the climate emergency, which is
3.25 pm happening in Birmingham over the next few weeks.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): It has been a pleasure There is no point in setting an ambitious target if it is
to be in the Chamber this afternoon listening to the not achievable, and the Opposition’s suggestion that we
excellent maiden speeches from my hon. Friends the could achieve net zero by 2030 is disingenuous; it is neither
Members for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell), for honest nor true.
East Surrey (Claire Coutinho) and for Birmingham, This country has already done a huge amount to
Northfield (Gary Sambrook). Birmingham, Northfield decarbonise electricity. We lead the world in offshore
is a place that I still hold very close to my political heart. wind and in ending the use of coal, but we can do more.
It is fitting that Members are making maiden speeches It is great news that by 2025 we will be able to have
on the Queen’s Speech. As a one-nation Conservative, I completely carbon-free inputs to our electricity grid,
warmly welcome this Queen’s Speech and the opportunity but we know that it needs to be more resilient. It needs
it unlocks for people all across our country. In particular, investment, which cannot all come from public funds; it
I welcome the investment in public services—in our needs private investment too, which is why we need a
NHS, in our police and in our schools. It is only because strong economy.
of our strong economy and the legacy of the past
decade of Conservative-led Government that we can Alan Brown: Will the hon. Lady give way?
invest in our public services.
The world is changing at a remarkable rate. We are in Vicky Ford: I will keep going, because I have only a
the fourth industrial revolution. To maintain that strong short time. I will not take any more interventions.
economy, we need to continue to invest in science and We need to make sure that we can use smart demand
technology and innovation. As a bit of a science geek, I management, using AI and technology. I have seen
welcome the Queen’s Speech commitment to keeping us at first hand how this works on the national grid. We
as a world leader in science, to boosting our R and D also need to unlock the potential of electric vehicles,
funding and to unlocking innovation. because of the benefits that they bring to battery storage.
Innovation is not new in my constituency of Chelmsford. I welcome the Government’s commitment to more
Exactly 100 years ago Marconi chose to locate its radar EV charging points, although I believe we need more
factory in Chelmsford, and 100 years ago the great urgency on this subject.
Australian singer Dame Nellie made the first ever radio
broadcast from Chelmsford—she sang to the world. We Bob Stewart: One of the problems with electric vehicles
led the world that day in a communications revolution is that they have batteries that cause real problems. We
that we are still living through today. Marconi chose have a problem in making them without actually using
Chelmsford because of the skills of the people there resources.
and because of the infrastructure. Infrastructure matters,
and, as the person who has been honoured to chair the Vicky Ford: The Science and Technology Committee
all-party group on infrastructure in this Parliament, I looked into electric vehicles’ batteries and resources in
believe that it is vital that we continue to invest in our great detail last year, particularly the demand for lithium
infrastructure, as this Government propose. and cobalt—precious materials that are a globally
Failing infrastructure is a big issue in my constituency. constrained resource. The fight for global minerals will
Our flyover, on which we have relied for many decades, be an increasingly important part of foreign policy, and
suffered terminal damage in last summer’s heatwave. In I would like to see that part of the net zero challenge
Chelmsford, we have already seen how our infrastructure addressed in the Foreign Office as well. I have driven a
has to be climate change resilient. That is just one of the hydrogen-fuelled car and returned it safely, giving the
reasons why I have chosen to speak today on the green keys back at the end. Using hydrogen in cars and
economy. Climate change is the biggest threat to our potentially feeding hydrogen into our domestic gas network
future. We have only one planet. The science is clear: we could bring huge benefits.
have to stop emissions, and we must achieve net zero. I am pleased that the Government are to introduce a
I am proud that we are the first major economy to super-bus strategy. We need better buses in my city of
commit to net zero. We need to turn net zero into Chelmsford. We need to have medium and long-term
reality, and that means we need to have net zero embedded strategies on that. We also need to relook at how we run
in all the decisions made at national and local government our railways. The service offered to my rail commuters
levels. We need a clear pathway. in Chelmsford at the moment is simply not good enough.
The hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden)
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): The hon. Lady asked about air transport. As a one-nation Conservative
speaks of the importance of achieving net zero. How I acknowledge the need to improve connectivity between
compatible is achieving net zero with the Government’s all parts of our country, and regional airlines have a role
recent announcement that they will cut air passenger to play in that, but as an eco-Tory I recognise the urgent
duty? need to tackle air transport emissions. It is good that
1075 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1076

[Vicky Ford] It was the same for those who went before him. My
own colleague George Kerevan was equally assiduous.
the UK is leading the world in developing cleaner, Prior to that, the constituency was represented by Fiona
greener aircraft—Cranfield University is a leader in O’Donnell, who continues to serve the county as a
this—but we should do more about carbon offsetting. Labour councillor in East Lothian. It goes all the way
Easyjet is now carbon offsetting all its flights, but Flybe back to the late, great John P. Mackintosh, who set the
does not offer that service to anyone. Consumers have standards and template that everybody who has represented
a role to play, and they should be given the ability to East Lothian since has sought to aspire to.
carbon offset. As my colleague George Kerevan pointed out, I have
a link to John P. Mackintosh because an assiduous
Alan Brown: After my hon. Friend the Member for campaigner for him—indeed, someone who has sought
Glasgow East (David Linden) intervened, the hon. Lady to keep his memory alive—is Arthur Greenan, who was
said that net zero should be embedded in every Government also a tenacious campaigner for George Kerevan and
decision. If the Government on a whim say, “We are an equally vibrant one for me, despite his age. Arthur is
going to review and reduce APD,”how is net zero embedded one of those to have made the political journey from
in that decision? being a Labour activist and voter to becoming an SNP
activist and supporter. It is a journey made by many,
Vicky Ford: I am calling on the Government to look and one that I tracked myself when I was privileged to
at how we can embed net zero in every single decision. I write a biography of arguably Scotland’s greatest ever
believe that getting cleaner, greener aircraft is one way MP who never was, the late, great Jimmy Reid.
to deliver connectivity, but more needs to be done on
carbon offsetting. In the medium and longer term, we My constituency has endured changes, but it has
need to look urgently at the issue of aircraft emissions. stayed the same in many ways. It continues to roll from
the Lammermuir hills to the banks of the Forth. It
I turn to consumer choice. The biggest part of many contains fertile land, bonny beaches and, indeed, fine
consumers’ carbon footprint is how they heat their folk. Some industries, such as mining, have gone. Other
homes. More needs to be done on the decarbonisation industries, such as renewables, have come—which is
of heat, so I warmly welcome the Government’s why it is important and appropriate that I am making
announcements to invest £9.2 billion in energy efficiency this speech at this juncture in the debate on the Queen’s
in our homes, schools and hospitals. However, I would Speech. We build around those new industries, but they
also call for more green mortgages. We have one of the are still based around the vibrant towns and villages of
most innovative financial services sectors in the world, both the historic county and the wider modern constituency.
and should be able to do more in relation to how people East Lothian’s people remain undiminished in their
finance their mortgages. grit, determination and decency, and indeed—as a new
My final point is on plastic. As the House knows, I arrival, I know this—in their warm and welcoming nature,
am allergic to the use of unnecessary single-use plastic. as thousands seek to move to the expanding county of
It is great that the Government have committed another East Lothian.
£500 million to the Blue Planet fund, and are helping
developing countries across the world to protect our There are historic links to my constituency in this
oceans. institution, and not just through those who have been
elected Members. When I first arrived here last month, I
I also warmly welcome the producer tax, but we need came across a statue of Oliver Cromwell, who is well
to get a deposit return scheme going too. Actually, I known in my constituency, in the town of Dunbar. He is
believe Scotland would be better off if it worked within not viewed as the Lord Protector; far from it. He may
the whole UK to introduce a scheme that worked for not have been as brutal there as he was at Drogheda,
the whole UK. That would be better for industry and but people still suffered at the Battle of Dunbar in 1650,
consumers. Consumers want to see a step change in when his English army killed thousands of Scottish
how we deal with single-use plastics, and this needs to soldiers and captured thousands more. Those who were
happen across all areas, not just food. We need to work captured were marched south, with many dying en
with producers and consumers, and it would be better if route. They were taken to Durham cathedral, where
the people of Scotland worked with the whole UK to thankfully a memorial now recognises what they suffered.
deliver it. Many died in incarceration there. Of those who were
released thereafter, some were given by the Lord Protector
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It to the army of France. Others were sent to do drainage
is with great pleasure that I call Kenny MacAskill to work in the area of the Wash in southern England.
make his maiden speech. Others still were transported to Barbados and to the
Americas.
3.35 pm
But some good did come from this, because in 1657,
Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): As is seven years after serving their penal servitude, some of
customary—and, I believe, correct—I will start with a those Scottish soldiers banded together to form the
tribute to my predecessor. Martin Whitfield and I disagreed Scots Charitable Society of what is now Boston, which
fundamentally on Scotland’s constitutional situation, is argued to be the one of the oldest such charitable
but in many other aspects we were at one. I am conscious organisations not just in the United States but in the
of the fact that he was tenacious in opposing Brexit, western hemisphere. They keep contacts with the community
and equally assiduous in representing his constituency, in Dunbar, as indeed did the Scottish Prisoners of War
so I know the standards that he has set. He will continue Society—because such an organisation does exist, with
to reside in the constituency, where I will no doubt many American members, and they had a re-enactment
bump into him. of the battle last year.
1077 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1078

You can move along the A1 as well as you can move 3.44 pm
along the corridors here. Moving along the A1, after
some 50 miles I come to the small town of Tranent, and Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I congratulate
equally moving along the corridors here, I came upon a the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill)
recognition of the Earl of Liverpool—there is, I think, on an excellent, lucid speech. I thoroughly enjoy history—I
both a bust and a painting of him. The Earl of Liverpool think we all do—and we heard a lot of history in his
is the third-longest-serving Prime Minister, but in the speech, as well as a lot of passion. I think he mentioned
town of Tranent he is better recalled as a British military that he had a journey from Labour to the SNP; may I
commander when the massacre of Tranent took place suggest a further journey to the Conservatives? Perhaps
in 1797. Twelve men, women and children were slain he could think about that later. I congratulate the other
because they opposed the imposition of conscription. Members who have made maiden speeches. It has been
He was then the military commander for east central a pleasure to listen to them all. I remember giving my
Scotland. He was not responsible for the order to fire, own nine years ago—how time flies!
but he was culpable, and indeed took the blame, according I want to talk briefly about nine different subjects in
to the Lord Advocate—but he obviously went on to the Queen’s Speech that affect my constituency. On the
greater things and became Prime Minister in 1820. subject of today’s debate, I congratulate the Government
The Earl of Liverpool’s links with Scotland do not on the ambitious and aspirational path they are taking.
end there, because this year is not just the 700th anniversary I urge a level of common sense in the direction of travel.
of the Declaration of Arbroath, when my country’s We do not want to end up with thousands of people in
nationhood was enshrined by those who cherish it and our country unemployed because of ambitious and
have it at its heart, but the year in which we will be aspirational targets that are simply not achievable, but
celebrating the bicentenary—the 200th anniversary—of that does not mean we should not try.
the 1820 uprising, or insurrection, when working people The first subject is the national health service. The recent
in Scotland campaigned for and demanded the universal decision to move A&E and maternity services from
franchise. Indeed, having seen what had happened just Poole Hospital to Royal Bournemouth Hospital has
the year before at Peterloo, they pledged that they would understandably caused a lot of anger and disappointment
not just take it lying down. We will remember them. among my constituents, not least those in Swanage.
The Earl of Liverpool is remembered because he I urge the Government to look at that again.
signed the death warrant for John Baird, Andrew Hardie The second is social care. Dorset Council is one of
and James Wilson. He had them hanged and then two new unitary councils formed recently at the behest
beheaded—the last time such punishment was used in of the Government and, of course, the people of Dorset.
the United Kingdom. We will remember them in April Huge cuts and sacrifices have been made, and savings
because they fought for the universal franchise—for the too. One of our major problems is paying for social
right of working people, as hon. Members mentioned care. The Prime Minister has said that that is high on
earlier, to have that vote. Nineteen others, including a his agenda. I urge the Government to sort this out as
child, were transported to Botany Bay, and only two made soon as possible, because I do not want our new unitary
it home to their native land. authority left high and dry, unable to afford social care
Centuries on, of course, we have the universal franchise: at this crucial time.
not just working men but working women have the right The third is education. I have fought with the f40
to vote. It is for that reason that I and my colleagues are campaign group of lower-funded councils for a levelling
in this Chamber today. I have no doubt that if the up of our schools’ funding. That has been achieved.
situation was the same as it had been in 1820, it would They have a conference in March near here, which I
have been a representative of the rich landlords because shall be attending. I spoke to them yesterday, and their
they were an oligarchy back then. view—and mine—is that more fairness is needed in the
But we do face challenges, because we have a Tory funding formula, particularly when it comes to special
Government who are no more reflective of the people educational needs and disability, which are underfunded
of Scotland now than, arguably, under Henry Dundas. in Dorset. We need Government help and for this to be
That is why I will continue to emulate the good constituency made a priority. Weymouth College in my constituency
work of those of my own party and, indeed, of others is the only place where young people have a hope of
to represent the fine people of East Lothian. Equally, I getting into further education and on to better careers.
will remember the memories of those who went before That, too, needs more funding. Sitting on the Education
who struggled for our native land to retain its identity Secretary’s desk is the tick-box exercise for a new special
and to advance the interests of working people. Indeed, school on Portland. I urge the Secretary of State to sign
as I come to the conclusion of my speech, I remember it off, so that we can open this much needed facility on
that one of the banners under which those who went to Portland as fast as we can.
their doom in 1820 marched was “Scotland Free or a The fourth is home ownership. More affordable homes
Desert”. to buy and let are desperately needed—and when I say
As we sit in a debate on a Queen’s Speech that talks affordable, I mean truly affordable, not 80% of market
about a transformative agenda, many in my constituency, rent. We need more one, two and three-bedroom social
especially the most vulnerable, fear what will happen to homes to buy and let. In Dorset we rely on housing
the welfare state and the NHS, and the gains made by providers, as many do now, because council homes have
our parents and our grandparents. We will, as with our been sold off. The Government have put £2 billion aside
forebears, defend the rights of working people and the for more affordable homes. Perhaps the Minister who
gains that we are entitled to expect, and we will defend sums up the debate will tell us how that money can be
our nationhood. Thank you for your indulgence, Madam reached and how much money is available for Dorset
Deputy Speaker. for these desperately needed homes.
1079 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1080

[Richard Drax] Rising to give my maiden speech, I am reminded of

the quip that there is never a more dangerous moment
The fifth is the justice system and the police. Sir James to speak than before the audience has had their dinner;
Spicer, the renowned former MP for West Dorset who but whoever first wrote that line clearly never had my
sadly has now passed away, started a thing called the teenage experience—of singing in a local workman’s
airborne initiative at Portland young offenders institution, club for an audience who were waiting for the bingo to
which gets young men out on to the moors with trained start. I thank my nan for giving me that particular
instructors from the Army and the Prison Service. It has opportunity, again and again, but at least it means
now gone to Feltham and Brinsford young offenders I have absolutely nothing to fear from those on the Benches
institutions, and it is hugely successful. I urge the opposite. They may deplore and decry my socialism,
Government to roll that out right across the justice system, but they are armed with neither heavy-duty black marker
because it is working, and reoffending is being cut. pens nor the impatience of a valleys grandmother.
On the police under the current funding formula, There can be no greater honour in life than to represent
Dorset will have 120 more officers, and I urge the the place closest to your heart. I am Ponty born and
Government to stick to that. Dorset needs more police bred. I went to my local comprehensive school in Tonyrefail.
officers. My dad and both granddads were miners. Pontypridd
The sixth is infrastructure. The dualling of the Salisbury runs through my veins as strongly and truly as the Rivers
line will help not only me but all passengers on it down Taff and Rhondda run through our valley.
to north Devon. If we can put track back on the former Pontypridd, my home, is also the home of local
bed at Yeovil Junction, it would hugely help access to legends—not just my mam, but the legends of Tom
Weymouth and the island of Portland. Jones and Wales’s most feared and capped prop-forward,
The seventh is business rates, which have been mentioned. Gethin Jenkins. Whilst I was tempted to construct this
The Government have this on their radar. Business rates speech around the lyrics of Sir Tom, I did not have the
need to be looked at, because they are highly punitive, same temptation when it came to Geth’s on-field banter.
particularly to small businesses. That would generally consist of a look so menacing that
it could make the very scoreboard twitch.
Eighth is the transport network—specifically, buses. I
cannot understand why the routes given to commercial To add to that list of local legends is my predecessor,
companies cannot be made compulsory. Yes, perhaps Owen Smith. Owen is a tough act to follow in every
the profit margin will not be excellently wide, but they sense. I know that his wit and wisdom, his rhetoric and
will still make a profit. Leave it to the entrepreneurs to his radicalism will be missed in this place, just as they
make money out of these least affordable routes. I am will be welcomed back at home. His work here, particularly
not saying that there should be a regular service to these campaigning on surgical mesh implants, will change the
remote villages, but perhaps, in co-ordination with those lives of women not just in this country, but around the
who live there, there could be a bus service in the world, as the full scale of that scandal is still being
morning and another at lunchtime, so that the elderly uncovered. That tenacious, groundbreaking campaign
can get to the shops and be back in time for lunch. work gave a glimpse of what Owen could and should
I cannot believe that it is beyond the wit of a good have achieved in government. Owen blazed a trail—as
entrepreneur and a good company to sort that out. he always does. In his nine years in Parliament he lived a
political life worthy of three decades. No wonder his
My final point concerns the armed services. In my
first career ambition was to be zipping around the green
day, spending on the armed forces was 5% of GDP;
pitch at Ponty’s Sardis Road, not warming these green
today it is just 2%. It simply is not enough. We have two
Benches. I know that colleagues here will wish him luck
aircraft carriers—the most expensive form of defence
with his return to the green, green grass of home.
that we could possibly have. They need planes above,
submarines beneath and ships beside, and of course As with Owen and his predecessor, Kim Howells,
men and women on board. We have to be able to afford music, rugby and politics represented the fundamentals
them. If we are to play our role outside the EU and of life growing up in Pontypridd. It is difficult to imagine
stand up for freedom, truth and democracy, as this it any other way in a constituency that gave the world
country has a proud record of doing, we need strong the Welsh national anthem and “Cwm Rhondda”. The
armed forces and they need more money. Pontypridd front row were not just three rugby players;
they were, for us, the eighth wonder of the world.
On the subject of historical legacies, I was glad to
hear the Prime Minister reaffirm at Prime Minister’s With iron and coal and industry comes the politics—
questions today that people who served 30 or 40 years politics rooted in people, fairness and radicalism. And
ago in Northern Ireland—and of course in past wars, whilst the iron and the coal may have gone, the people
and those who will serve in future—will not be followed have not, and nor have the radicalism and the ambition
to the grave or persecuted when there is no new evidence for fairness and equality. I have no doubts whatsoever
to prosecute them. With that final point, I conclude my that it is my duty to hold the red banner high in this
speech. place, on behalf of my constituents; to tell their stories,
and to tell the difficult truths to those on my own Front
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It Bench as well as the one opposite. A town built on iron
is a great delight to call Alex Davies-Jones to make her and steel does not elect shrinking violets, and I will use
maiden speech. my voice to elevate the lived experiences of my constituents
so that they can never, ever be ignored.
3.51 pm I also have no doubt that my task, and that of all my
Labour colleagues, has become more difficult following
Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): Diolch yn fawr, the election result in December. One of the jewels in the
Madam Deputy Speaker. Ponty crown is the Royal Mint in Llantrisant, which is a
1081 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1082

fantastic employer of nearly 1,000 people. But it is an technological advance, innovation, and inward investment.
irony not lost on me, or my constituents, that despite The cornerstone is the Climate Change Act 2008 and
the fact that we physically make all the country’s money, the creation of the Committee on Climate Change.
we see precious little of it in return in the shape of That was followed by the industrial strategy, the clean
Government investment. The High Speed 2 maps proudly growth strategy, and sector deals, including that for
produced by this Government show billions of pounds offshore wind, which was launched by former Minister
worth of red and blue streaks across the map of England, Claire Perry in Lowestoft last March. Subsequently, last
but not so much as a slither in Wales. There is no summer we enshrined in law the legally binding target
investment in rail electrification, or in the transformational to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050—the
tidal lagoon technology being developed in south Wales. first major economy to do that. That target is robust
Wales can, and will, lead the way on ingenuity, the and realistic, and in line with scientific expert advice
economy and the environment, but the Government from the Committee on Climate Change, which stated
must stop holding us back. that there is no evidence that a target date earlier than
One very small word has a huge world of meaning in 2050 is feasible.
south Wales, and that is the sort of economy and We now need to get on with the policies that are
environment we want and deserve: tidy—a tidy economy, required to reach net zero. Provided that we do not dither
and a tidy environment. To achieve that means a and delay, we may be able to achieve this target earlier.
commitment to the kind of green industrial revolution Such policies include those set out in the Conservative
being promoted by the Labour party, not the wishy-washy manifesto of increasing the UK’s ambition on offshore
promises of the UK Government. It means investment wind to up to 40 GW by 2030, enabling floating wind
in future technologies, and it means working with the farms and committing £800 million to building the first
Welsh Labour Government on their groundbreaking fully deployed carbon capture and storage cluster by the
environmental legislation, and the Well-being of Future mid-2020s.
Generations (Wales) Act 2015. From Pontypridd to In East Anglia, much has been achieved: 4 GW of
Perth the climate crisis that we are facing impacts on us offshore wind power is already operational off the East
all, and I will use my voice in this place to keep the Anglian coast, accounting for over 50% of the UK’s
climate emergency at the forefront. I come from a seat installed capacity. With the potential developments in
that helped power the last industrial revolution, and for the pipeline, we can provide much of the Government’s
the sake of my generation, and the one to follow, I want new revised higher target. Investment to facilitate that
Pontypridd to be at the forefront of the next one. further development is taking place: in autumn, the
I will close by saying that the bridge that symbolises £10 million Energy Skills Centre was opened on East
the town of Pontypridd will be my inspiration for my Coast College’s Lowestoft campus, and ScottishPower
work in Parliament. It was the longest single span completed the new £25 million operations and maintenance
bridge in Britain when it was opened in 1756, and it is base in the Hamilton dock. Later this year, CEFAS—the
not just the architectural ingenuity that inspires me, but Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture
the fact that it represented William Edwards’s fourth Science—will open its new offices and laboratory in
attempt at a bridge to cross the Taff. He did not let the Pakefield. It provides, and will continue to provide, the
floods, collapses and miscalculations deter him; he kept best fisheries scientific advice, but it is also now giving
thinking, he kept on trying, and he kept building. That advice on offshore renewable energy to Governments
is how I intend to carry forward this job of representing across the world. It is a trusted bridge linking the public
the people of Pontypridd, which is the greatest honour sector to academia and private industry.
of my life. I will make mistakes, I will learn from them,
and I will keep going. With the support of my family I commend the Government for facilitating that
and my constituents, I will be the bridge from Pontypridd investment, but now is not the time to rest on our
to Westminster. laurels. We need to go the extra mile. The national
policy framework must quickly move forward to its next
3.57 pm stage, with the Government setting out a cost-effective
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I congratulate the pathway to achieving our net zero target. Net zero must
hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) on a be embedded across Government. All future departmental
passionate, robust, honest, and forthright speech. It is decisions, particularly those on spending, must pass a
clear that she will be no shrinking violet in this place, net zero test, to ensure that we achieve, and hopefully
which is quite right. deliver beyond, the target.
A green industrial revolution is currently taking place As I have mentioned, in an East Anglian context
in Suffolk and Norfolk. Off our coast, parts of one of much has been achieved, but there is a concern that,
the largest clusters of offshore wind farms in the world notwithstanding the massive scale of investment off
are either in operation, being built, or being planned. our coast—£1 billion to £2 billion per project—the
There are also exciting plans for revitalising the fishing region is very much unrepresented when it comes to the
industry in East Anglia post Brexit, in an environmentally supply and installation of main components. There are
responsible way that can help to revitalise coastal a number of main contractors in the region with the
communities along the 200-mile coastline in Norfolk, expertise to do this work, including Sembmarine SLP,
Suffolk and Essex. The foundations have been laid and James Fisher Marine Services, Seajacks, 3sun and Global
jobs are being created, but more work is required if we Marine Group-C Wind.
are to realise the most from those exciting opportunities The offshore wind sector deal has the potential to
for local people, communities and businesses. stimulate the required inward investment in components
Successive Governments have done well in creating manufacturing, which will create longer and more resilient
the policy framework in which the green industrial supply chains and more local jobs. We need to work
revolution is taking place—a framework that encourages with those businesses to ensure that they can realise
1083 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1084

[Peter Aldous] vessels operate out of the Netherlands. They use beam
trawls, which drag heavy metal beams across the seabed,
their full potential. That will also require investment in which is ecologically damaging and fuel-intensive. We
infrastructure, particularly in ports such as Lowestoft. now have the opportunity to move to a newer and
If we do that, then ultimately opportunities will open greener way of fishing that will benefit our coastal
up for more UK businesses to develop and export communities. It is important that we grasp the opportunity.
low-carbon goods and services, thereby facilitating the In conclusion, the future is bright, but it is not orange
global transition to net zero. —it is green. There is enormous potential to revitalise
The oil and gas industry has been an integral part of coastal communities not only in East Anglia, but all
the East Anglian economy for over 50 years. It still has around the coast, to provide opportunities for many
an important role to play as we transition to net zero. people who feel that they have been overlooked and
Collaborative work is taking place with the offshore forgotten for too long. It is important that we do not let
wind sector, with both learning from one another, and them down.
with further opportunities to pioneer inter-sector training
and currency certification. Gas to wire technology and 4.7 pm
gas platform electrification, powered by offshore wind,
are emerging as new advances that provide added resilience Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): I pay tribute
in supply while assisting in decarbonising traditional to Members for the fantastic maiden speeches that we
methods of generation. have heard this afternoon, including—especially—my
constituency neighbour and hon. Friend the Member
As I have already mentioned, there are exciting
for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones).
opportunities in carbon capture and storage, and we
must not forget the enormous amount of work that A huge area of the west Antarctic ice sheet is likely to
needs to be carried out in decommissioning oil and gas break off into the sea—that was on the news today. Vast
assets on the UK continental shelf. In the southern cracks have been spotted that could lead to a large part
North sea, late-life and decommissioning expenditure is of the glacier breaking away. When my father was there
forecast at around £4.4 billion for the period up to 2027. over 50 years ago, he saw a very, very different Antarctica.
That amounts to an average annual spend of around Such a lot has changed since then, and not for the
£445 million. It is important that we have a policy better. The warming of the oceans is posing a considerable
framework and an investment strategy that ensures that risk. People may ask, “Antarctica is a long way away;
we secure as much of that work as possible for UK and what difference does that make to the lives of people
East Anglian businesses. The Government recognise the living up and down the UK?” Altogether, the west
need for an oil and gas sector deal, and I urge them to Antarctic ice sheet contains 2.2 million cubic kilometres
start work as soon as possible on its preparation, of ice. If it collapses and melts, it will raise sea levels by
collaborating closely with the industry. more than three metres, completely submerging huge
I turn to the opportunity that Brexit provides to parts of our coastline, including London and Cardiff.
revitalise the East Anglian fishing industry. The right Moreover, it could happen more quickly than scientists
policy framework is emerging following the 2018 fisheries once thought, if carbon dioxide levels continue to rise
White Paper, and it is important that the forthcoming as they have been. The ice melt is being driven by ocean
fisheries Bill promotes sustainable and environmentally temperatures rising far quicker and at greater depths
aware fishing practices and management. Having sat on than previously thought.
the Fisheries Bill Committee in the last Parliament, I Despite that, the Government are on track to miss all
believe that we are moving in the right direction, but their climate targets and will not meet our fourth or
more work is required. In East Anglia, we have produced fifth carbon budgets. The Government’s plans for reducing
the REAF—“Renaissance of East Anglian Fisheries”— emissions are just not good enough if we are to meet
report, which sets out recommendations for revitalising our targets by the early 2030s, let alone the net zero
the industry that could generate an additional £28 million target of 2050, which, incidentally, will be far too late to
to £34 million per annum in the region’s ports. prevent the most catastrophic climate change. The world
The report’s recommendations very much recognise is not coming together to address these issues. The
the importance of sustainable fishing, including the United States, one of the world’s top polluters, has
development of a modern fleet, delivering top-quality begun its withdrawal from the Paris climate agreement,
fish, high-quality jobs and a reduced environmental and the UK Government are still spending billions
impact. It is recommended that consideration is given subsidising fossil fuel projects across the world through
to restricting offshore vessels to 500 hp and prohibiting UK Export Finance. I pay tribute to Mary Creagh, the
the abhorrent and unacceptable use of beam trawls. Those former Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee,
restrictions would encourage and facilitate the entry of who led the inquiry that showed how billions of pounds
modern vessels, each with a crew of up to approximately of taxpayers’ money was being spent in that way through
five and each able to use a variety of gear, such as UK Export Finance. When will this stop? When will the
twin-rig trawls and fly-shooting nets. These vessels would Government take climate change seriously?
carry the most modern fish-handling and storage We have experienced raging wildfires—we are seeing
technology. The proposed new fleet is modelled on the them right now—devastating droughts, record-breaking
modern French fleet of the same size and gear types. It heatwaves and shattering floods at home. We are even
offers higher fish quality, greater employment opportunities, seeing fires in the Arctic. This should be the alarm that
less impact on marine ecology and a lighter carbon awakens a deep sense of urgency. Time for real action is
footprint. running out. World scientists and experts tell us we have
This vision is in contrast with the current fleet. At less than 10 years to get on the right path and take that
present, no offshore vessels operate out of East Anglian action. We must act faster than our current rate of
ports. Instead, a number of UK-registered but Dutch-owned change and we must be drastically more radical. This is
1085 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1086

a moral, humanitarian and economic issue that we clean and green new life for our family, would lead to a
simply cannot afford not to act on with haste. Our massive improvement in wellbeing and mental health
children and grandchildren will judge us on how far we and perhaps a reduction in chronic diseases such as
rise to meet this challenge and provide a planet for them obesity, thereby—critically—reducing dependence on
that is fit for them. the national health service. The groundbreaking Well-being
Last year, official statistics showed that the UK, of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which I was
rather than closing the gap, was moving backwards, and proud to help to develop during my time in the Welsh
when we look at the recent record, it is not hard to see Government, leads the way in offering opportunities for
why. The number of new solar installations has collapsed— that to happen, but we need to see it happen throughout
the figure for the first quarter of last year was 98% the United Kingdom.
lower than the average for 2015; the number of home Only by investing in our clean, green economy, setting
installations in England has fallen 95% since 2012; and hard, ambitious targets and taking urgent, radical action
the Government have effectively banned new onshore will we be able to create a country and a world fit for the
wind power, which is the cheapest and most tried and future and for our children, so let us start to do that.
tested form of renewable technology. We have not gone
far enough to bring about economic, industrial or societal
4.18 pm
change here at home or indeed overseas.
A bold and transformative green industrial revolution Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): It is a
across the UK could change lives, but it must match the pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cardiff North
scale of change and also undo the environmental change (Anna McMorrin), and it has been a pleasure to hear
brought about by the first industrial revolution. Let us some excellent maiden speeches this afternoon. I believe
also ensure that it creates clean and secure jobs in areas that there is at least one more to come, and we look
impoverished by deindustrialisation, such as the south forward to it very much.
Wales valleys, which lost thousands of jobs. We can It is also a pleasure to participate in this important
invest there with renewable energies and provide those debate on the Government’s vision and ambition for a
opportunities, but we need more than just words; we green industrial revolution. As I pointed out in an
need a green industrial programme that delivers climate intervention at the start of the debate, Cornwall is ready
and economic justice—because we can do both. to play a very active part in that revolution. It has a
What would a green industrial revolution mean for proud history of innovation and being at the forefront
people and families? What would it mean for families of technological advances, and it is already playing its
struggling to live on one income on the minimum wage, part in the area of renewable energy. We already have
or for parents struggling to make ends meet and worrying very advanced wind and solar generation power, and we
every day about putting food on the table or keeping are about to start producing geothermal energy: we are
their children warm at night? Well, for them it is about the only place in the UK that will be able to do that.
building affordable, energy-efficient, zero carbon homes Cornwall will also be at the forefront in the extraction
or retrofitting the homes that have already been built, of lithium and other precious minerals that are necessary
allowing them to save on their bills. It is about providing for battery technology.
cheaper, more inclusive public transport in towns and However, what I want to touch on this afternoon is
cities, so that that family know that it is cheaper to go to not so much the green revolution that we need, but the
work on the bus or train, that they will be able to afford blue revolution that we need. We now have a much
it, and that they will get there on time. It is about greater understanding of just how important the seas
subsidising electric vehicles and providing adequate charging and oceans are to our environment, and of the part that
points. I am proud that today Cardiff City Council they play in regulating our climate.
published its groundbreaking and very ambitious transport I was born and grew up in Cornwall around the sea
strategy, which sets out how it will invest in clean, green and I now have the huge privilege of representing one of
transport. only three constituencies in the country that has two
The green industrial revolution will also create much- separate coastlines. I grew up being very much aware of
needed jobs and provide new skills for young people. It what an amazing thing our sea is—a place that we can
is an opportunity to build apprenticeships and stable, love and enjoy, a place of adventure—but I also grew up
secure jobs and income. It is about making sure that the to respect the ocean and to understand what a complex
16-year-old school leaver who may be worried about place it is. The sea in Cornwall has shaped not just our
his or her long-term future has a future, whether it is landscape but our culture and identity, and we are
helping to build green homes or manufacturing, fitting always closely attached to it. For far too long, though,
or maintaining renewable energies and technologies. we seemed to have the impression that the sea could
Green apprenticeships and opportunities for new companies cope with anything we threw at it—that it was vast
must be given the right support, commitment and enough to cope, whatever we pumped or threw into it.
opportunities by the Government, and must lead to a Thankfully, in recent years we have come to appreciate
societal change for the families who really need it: the that that is not the case and that we need to protect our
families who depend on those jobs and on a stable, firm oceans and take care of what we put into them.
economy—a green economy. I will touch on three areas where I welcome the
The green industrial revolution will mean cleaner air Government taking action, but on which I want to press
to breathe, cleaner towns and city centres, and more them to do a bit more. Others have already mentioned
green spaces. The food security crisis that would come the fact that we have to stop producing so much plastic
with a climate crisis, leading to higher food prices, and be more responsible in the way we deal with and
would be mitigated, and food could be locally sourced dispose of the plastic that we use. I will never forget the
and cheaper and easier to source. This new life, this moment, a few years ago, when the realisation hit me
1087 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1088

[Steve Double] the Government to do more to protect those communities

from the impact of extreme weather and storms. If we
just how much plastic was being pumped into our seas spend a few million pounds now, we will save tens or
and oceans. It was when I read a report that highlighted hundreds of millions of pounds in the years to come.
that if we do not take drastic action by 2050, there will Many of the communities that I represent, such as
be more plastic than fish in our seas. Newquay, are worried about the amount of development
I am grateful for the action that the Government have still being allowed on clifftops that are eroding before
already taken to reduce the amount of plastic waste we our eyes. We need to look again at our planning policy
produce, including the plastic bag charge, the ban on when it comes to clifftop development to ensure that we
microbeads and the plan to ban plastic straws, but I are not just saving up problems for the years to come by
want to press them on this, because we urgently need to building properties that will be right on the edge of
come forward with a deposit return scheme for single-use those cliffs in a short space of time. We must take action
plastic bottles. We have been talking about that for over to ensure that funding is available to protect our coastal
two years, and that is far too long. We now really need communities and that we are not continuing to build in
to press ahead and bring in a scheme that will help us to areas facing coastal erosion.
increase the level of plastic recycling in our country and As a proud island nation, the UK has always had a
ensure that far less is thrown away only to end up in our positive relationship with the sea. I am pleased that we
seas and oceans. I am pleased with the progress we have are now starting to treat our oceans much more responsibly,
made as a Government, but let us really press this home but we need to do more. I welcome the measures that
and ensure that we take urgent action. the Government are already bringing forward, but I
Another thing that I want to talk about is sewage urge them to continue to review the situation and to
discharge into our seas. We have made huge progress in ensure that we treasure and protect our oceans and do
cleaning up our seas in relation to the amount of not continue to contribute to the pollution of the seas
sewage that we pump into them. One of the things I around us.
have been proud of in my time in this place is that I have
worked closely with the Cornish-based charity Surfers 4.27 pm
Against Sewage, whose main focus over many decades Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): One of the obvious
has been to ensure that we clean up our seas, but the sad advantages and pleasures of being called late in the
fact is that we are still pumping too much untreated debate is that I have been able to listen to several
sewage into our oceans through combined sewer outflows. wonderful maiden speeches. In the two most recent
We still have too many of these sewage systems that speeches, the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny
combine household foul waste water—sewage—with MacAskill) gave a full history of Scotland, and the hon.
rainwater and surface water from run-off drains. When Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) offered a
we have heavy rainfall, all of that gets into the sewerage wonderful portrait of her town and its people. It has
system and it just cannot cope. Untreated raw sewage is been a pleasurable afternoon, and I am looking forward
therefore pumped into the seas. to the next maiden speech of the day.
We have been monitoring this situation and we found It is just weeks since the general election, during
that, just in the recreational summer season last year, which all Opposition parties proposed detailed plans
there were more than 1,700 discharges of untreated for tackling the climate emergency and getting us to net
sewage into our seas across the UK, 10% of which were zero emissions as soon as possible, and I have been
in Cornwall. It cannot be acceptable that we continue to encouraged by how the scientific consensus and the
do that in this day and age. Yes, we are making progress, political consensus have matched. We have known for
but I believe we now need to press the water companies over a year that we need to keep global temperature
to really up their game. They must take drastic action to rises to below 1.5° C and that our old target of an
get rid of these combined sewers and ensure that we 80% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions must change
stop discharging untreated sewage into our seas. Surfers to net zero by 2050 at the latest.
Against Sewage has a target that we will have stopped The Opposition parties offer similar commitments to
pumping raw sewage into recreational sea areas by climate action, and we share similar thinking on the
2030, as well as a long-term plan to ensure that we rid science and technology. We share similar aspirations for
our seas of untreated sewage in any circumstances. a just transition and for ambitious targets, but where is
Again, I welcome the measures in the Environment Bill the Government’s plan? Climate action is notable by its
that the previous Parliament began to consider; I urge absence from the Government’s plan for this new
the Government to bring back that Bill in the near Parliament, and I have a term for that: climate action
future and to include real teeth in the new policy to delay. The climate emergency is real, and we need
ensure that we can hold water companies to account urgent action now. Climate action delay is no better
and stop the pumping of untreated sewage into our than climate change denial, because if we delay now, we
seas. will fail to keep temperatures below the threshold of
Finally, coastal areas bear the brunt of the impact of 1.5° C necessary to avoid global climate chaos.
climate change, and we see that time and again in What does climate action mean in practice for transport,
Cornwall. The extreme weather events that we used to for energy and for our homes? In transport, net zero
think happened every 50 years now occur on an almost means that cars, lorries and buses need to be powered
annual basis. We need to prepare our coastal communities without using fossil fuels. For us that means no sales of
for the impact of climate change. A big area of concern new petrol or diesel cars from 2030; for the Government
in Cornwall is coastal erosion, which is accelerating the target is 2040, which is too late. Is there a scientific
before our very eyes. Many of the communities that I reason for a 10-year difference? No. It is climate action
represent face the impact and costs of erosion, so I urge delayed.
1089 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1090

The next sector is electricity. In net-zero Britain, and it was incredibly heartening to hear during the campaign,
electricity must come from renewables and green hydrogen. on street after street and doorstep after doorstep, of the
For us that means massive new investment in renewable work he had done to help people.
energy such as offshore and onshore wind, solar and Dennis became known nationally for his uncompromising
marine power, starting now. No one should be in any contributions in this Chamber and for his heckling
doubt that this is a big challenge. Electricity usage will before the Queen’s Speech. Feared, admired and respected,
go up enormously as we transition from natural gas for Dennis Skinner is synonymous both with this House
heating and petrol and diesel for vehicles. and with the constituency I now represent. It would only
Our target is to generate 80% of our electricity from be fair and a great tribute if we could arrange for a
renewables by 2030. Net zero means completely statue of Dennis to be built in the constituency to
transitioning out of fossil fuels in this sector. What would honour his service and to inspire the next generation in
the Government do if they were serious about a net-zero Bolsover that they, too, can help to shape the world.
Britain? They would support a fast and extensive roll-out I would very much welcome support for this proposal
of renewable installations, including onshore wind and from both the Opposition Front Bench and the
marine power. They would demonstrate that there will Government. I even suggest that Scottish National party
be no fossil fuel extraction in the UK, and they would Members may wish to support it, given they finally have
put a clear stop to fracking now. They would reduce the Bench space that they so long desired.
and remove all fossil fuel subsidies.
The Leader of the Opposition has already paid tribute
What are this Government doing? The signs are not
to his fallen comrade, my predecessor, in the House, and
good. The indications are business as usual. Business as
I suspect he is better placed to do so than I am, other
usual means going at a sufficiently slow pace so as to
than to say that Dennis is, was and always will be the
ensure the continued need for fossil fuels. That is climate
Beast of Bolsover.
action delayed.
The third sector is the energy efficiency of our homes. The wonderful people of Bolsover have very discerning
To get to net zero, we need to stop heating our homes tastes—or at least they did until 12 December—and I
with natural gas and oil. We will succeed in that transition am only the third Member of Parliament to serve the
only if we have an ambitious programme of insulating constituency since its creation in 1950. Both my predecessors
our homes to the highest energy efficiency standard made their maiden contributions in this House on the
feasible. topic of the coal industry, and I wanted to continue in
that vein with today’s speech on the green industrial
We know what needs to be done, and the technology revolution.
is there. We can build new homes to high sustainability
standards. What is this Government’s plan? Little or Bolsover is proud of its mining past—its geography,
nothing. They are consulting on or suggesting making communities and landscape were moulded by that once
some changes five years from now. Once again, that is great industry—but we know that mining is not our future,
climate action delayed. We cannot afford delay any longer. and Bolsover is one of those post-mining communities
We need a clear and decisive plan for how to adjust and where potential is plentiful but not entirely unleashed.
change almost every sector to deliver net zero, starting The challenge of becoming the first major economy to
now. become carbon neutral by 2050 is one we should relish,
where we look to our science and research sectors to
This Government talk the talk, but they do not walk find new solutions and innovations. We should be optimistic
the walk. We need climate action now. about our future, as a leading economy and as a country
that is well placed to develop and build green technologies,
Several hon. Members rose— and about our ability to meet the climate challenge head
on. But we must also ensure that, in that challenge, no
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It community is left behind.
is a great pleasure to call Mark Fletcher to make his
maiden speech. I can see what you are thinking, Madam Deputy
Speaker. The weather outside is not so great, there are
still dozens of maiden speeches to go, recess is only a
4.32 pm few weeks away and mentally you are flicking through
the travel brochures. The beaches of the Bahamas, Bali
Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): It is an incredible
and Barbados are calling, but may I make a suggestion
honour to speak in this Chamber for the first time as
that is equally, if not more, splendid—Bolsover? Its
the Member of Parliament for Bolsover. It is a particular
tremendous tourism trade is beginning to thrive, and
honour to do so with you in the Chair, Madam Deputy
you will meet the friendliest constituents in the country.
Speaker, as I went to school in your constituency.
You can visit our 17th century castle or make your way
I start by thanking all the House staff and authorities to Hardwick Hall, an Elizabethan masterpiece. You can
who have been so welcoming to us newbies as we start your journey by rail, in the picturesque village of
continually get lost. Whitwell, travel through Creswell and see the Creswell
The guidance produced by the Library suggests that crags, and move on to the powerhouse that is Shirebrook,
we should start our maiden speech with a tribute to our a town of many achievements and from where the
predecessor. I feel there was a missing paragraph telling mighty Jason Statham originates.
us what to do when our predecessor is a giant of British If you insist on driving through the most magnificent
politics. constituency in the country, you will be pleased to find
Dennis Skinner became a Member of Parliament in that the M1 snakes its way through Bolsover, although
1970, and he served the great people of Bolsover for I should warn you that we are the beneficiaries of a
49 years. He fought tirelessly for his constituents locally, so-called “smart” motorway on that stretch. You can
1091 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1092

[Mark Fletcher] thank the amazing teachers at Danum School Technology

College, like Dave Irons and Val Cusworth, and so
start in the village of Barlborough, pop into Dobbies many others who treated me like I was their family and
for a cup of tea and perhaps visit the council offices in made me feel a little less lost.
nearby Clowne, and then head to junction 29A, where This is an intake that I am incredibly proud to be a
you will find Markham Vale, the very best place in the part of, because so many of us overcame difficulties and
country to set up a business if you require good transport know how lucky we are, and how things might have
links. If you make your way a little further south, you been so different for us. Our mission, in the privileged
can head to Pinxton, which is famous for its porcelain, positions that we now hold, is to make our world a little
and do a spot of shopping at the McArthur Glen outlet. less reliant on lucky interventions and ensure that this
I should say that nearby are the headquarters of a Conservative Government give working-class kids the
famous business, Slimming World, but it seems not to best possible start in life.
have written to its new MP—perhaps it knows a lost cause
when it sees one!
4.42 pm
The largest part of my constituency is just next to
Pinxton: the mighty South Normanton. My first Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to
engagement in my new role as the Member of Parliament follow the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher). I
was at the South Normanton Community Church, where think everyone on the Labour Benches would thank
they debuted a new production, based on the pop lyrics him for his kind words about Dennis Skinner, who was
of a P!nk song, called “What About Us?”. It spoke of more than just an MP to us; he was a link to a period
the challenge we face in this House: ensuring that when people had dignity at work and felt respected in
communities in the midlands and the north that have what they did, and when we had real communities that
felt overlooked and undervalued for too long feel as were strengthened by the work and the ethos that
though politics is as much about them as it is about the people had as part of their community. For Labour
City of London and big business; as though we are as Members, Dennis is a link to so much more than just
interested in delivering jobs, opportunities, transport the Labour party, and to hear the hon. Gentleman’s warm
upgrades and broadband connectivity in post-mining words meant so much.
communities as we are elsewhere; and as though we care On the idea of a statue, I cannot speak for Dennis,
about tackling antisocial behaviour and ensuring that although I can think of one word, or perhaps two words
our national health service remains a cherished institution. that he might say as one word: something like “Give
It is a challenge that I believe the new Members on these over!” The thought is appreciated, though, and who
Benches will relish. knows what will happen on this side of the House
I omitted one part of my constituency, Madam Deputy and how far that will go? Even though it came from
Speaker—or, in political language, I saved the best for the Conservative Benches, I think Dennis would have
last. If you make your way through Blackwell or Tibshelf, appreciated that and the hon. Gentleman’s warm words,
you will find four wards on loan from North East for which we thank him.
Derbyshire District Council that are also in my constituency:
Holmewood and Heath, Pilsley and Morton, Shirland, Bob Stewart: I thank my friend for allowing me to
and Sutton are certainly where you should finish your intervene. I speak as a friend of Dennis Skinner. The
visit. I recommend a visit to the beautiful village of lesson for everyone new coming into this place is to
Woolley Moor, or if you are feeling particularly active realise that there is a difference between politics and
you can make your way along the Five Pits trail. friendship. Friendship stretches across the House; politics
may differ, but friendship is firm. Dennis is one of those
If I may finish on a personal note, today and 12 December sorts of people who would be very welcoming when one
were both bittersweet days for me: I am indescribably sat down and had a chat with him.
honoured that the people of Bolsover thought that an
openly gay, Cambridge-educated lad from Donny was Clive Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that
the obvious successor to Dennis Skinner, but I am also intervention; he makes an important point. I hope that
drawn to thinking about my mum, who passed away in a in the coming weeks, months and years we all remember
tragic accident when I was 17. At that time, I lived on my each other’s common humanity. It is important that we
own and felt like my world was falling apart. I miss her hold on to that.
tremendously and wish she was here today. Let us understand the backcloth to this debate: Australia
As I sat on these Benches yesterday, listening to a is currently on fire; 2,000 homes have been destroyed;
number of maiden speeches by my colleagues that were 27 people have lost their lives; and half a billion animals
considerably better than my own—[HON. MEMBERS: have been incinerated. An area larger than either Hungary
“No!”]—I was struck by how many of the new intake or Portugal has been razed to the ground. Meanwhile,
have overcome tragedy, adverse circumstances, disabilities to its north, the rains that never reached Australia are
or a difficult upbringing. So many of us have found flooding Indonesia. This pattern is being repeated across
ourselves, at one stage or another, the underdog in life. the globe.
Equally, I was struck by how that motivated us to want We are already in an era of wild weather: seasons
to make a difference—to help other people when they appear at the wrong times; food harvests are diminished;
need it most—and, perhaps most importantly, how we pollinating and insect-mating seasons are being disrupted;
all remembered those who helped us in our moment and, without our noticing, the seas have been warming
of need. and storms increasing at an alarming rate. This is the
I listened yesterday to hon. Members pay tribute beginning of climate disruption. We have talked about
to the teachers who helped them and inspired them to it for a long time. It is now here. We are at a stage that
reach these Benches. In my own case, I would like to cannot easily be reversed, but that can be stopped from
1093 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1094

heading into runaway breakdown. The key is what we where to visit. There is no dispute in this place about the
do within the current decade, which is what makes the fact that Cornwall, including the west of Cornwall and
Queen’s Speech so important. the Isles of Scilly, is the most attractive and the most
If the Prime Minister understood the emergency, the beautiful place to visit, but I am very happy to spend
Queen’s Speech would have included measures such as: the next four or five years in this Parliament in that
introducing UK carbon budgets to reduce CO2 emissions contest. None the less, his speech was fantastic. It is
by 20% a year; removing planning permission for new great to have colleagues in the House who share so
buildings connected to the gas grid; reinstating Britain’s many of the same values.
zero-carbon homes standard; putting in place a national I have risen to speak in support of the green industrial
fuel poverty, home energy efficiency programme; raising revolution. I looked up the word “revolution”, and it
the UK tree planting targets to 3 billion within a might not be what the Government intend, as the definition
decade; transferring the roads budget into new public in the dictionary is “to overthrow the Government”,
transport networks; and, because building resilience which would not help us to achieve the green industrial
into every part of our economy from infrastructure to revolution. We certainly need a definite and fundamental
food security is now critical, making a huge investment change, and I believe there is an appetite for that in
in flood prevention programmes and everything else Government. I have been an MP for four and a half
that goes with that. years, and a number of times I have discussed with
Later this year, the UK will host the COP26 gathering colleagues and members of the Cabinet how we achieve
of nations still struggling to set up a robust framework a more decarbonised and greener economy. I have no
to avoid climate breakdown. It is an opportunity for doubt that there is the will, appetite and determination,
Britain to lead rather than just to host. Are there any as well as the talent and expertise, to deliver that.
measures in this Queen’s Speech to show how we will do I welcome the intention behind the green industrial
this? No, of course there are not. Has anyone actually revolution and the £22 billion that will be spent each
told the PM that one cannot just turn up to COP and year on green technologies for efficient homes, renewable
go, “Bing, bang, boom, bong, phwoar, climate crisis!”? energy, clean heating and electric vehicles. It will come
We have to stand on our record, and this Government as no surprise to anyone who has heard me speak on
do not have one. Members do not have to take my word this subject before that I will discuss two areas: transport
for it. In its latest assessment, the Committee on Climate and housing.
Change said that the UK is not First, I will talk about Flybe. I am a Cornish MP, and
“on track to meet the fourth carbon budget. To meet future Flybe serves the Newquay to London route. Many
carbon budgets and the 100% target for 2050 it will require the people appreciate and value that, and it is good for our
government to apply more challenging measures.” local economy, but I stress that for every pound we use
To you and me, Madam Deputy Speaker, that means to support this business and the connectivity that we
pull your finger out because: the world is burning; absolutely should support and sustain between the regions
biodiversity is collapsing; the oceans are warming; the and across the UK, I want an equivalent sum—maybe
ice caps are melting; and the world is watching us here more—to be spent on our rail infrastructure, on the
in the UK this year. electrification of the rail line, and on reducing ticket
Ultimately, I fear that nothing we say in this place prices. It is ludicrous that, as we look to support and
will change the mind of this Government. The entirety save an operator such as Flybe, it is so much cheaper to
of this Government’s mandate has been founded on one fly than to get the train. I really hope that this Government,
thing, which is to get Brexit done—it pains me to say over this Parliament, will do something to give real
that. When we understand that this is a hard right choice to consumers, commuters and passengers, so
political project, we will understand that this Government that they can afford to choose a cleaner way to travel.
have no intention of facing up to the climate crisis. People want choice, and I believe that is one way for us
Brexit has always been about trade deals that do not to show a real commitment to the subject. I am delighted
give a damn about climate, inequality or the global that the Transport Secretary, who is a friend of mine, is
south. It is about deregulation that lets corporations here; I am sure he is keen to speak and to shed some
raping our planet do so with ever more impunity. That light on the intention.
is what Brexit is actually about, and that is why the The green industrial revolution needs to be about
Queen’s Speech has failed even the most basic of tests. accelerating and embracing the use of new technology
and working practices. The two areas where we can
Ultimately, little we say in here will make a difference
achieve quite dramatic reductions in our carbon footprint
with this Government. The only way that millions of
are the built environment and transport. Both contribute
people in this country will see any real change is to build
a significant amount of carbon emissions to our
a climate mass movement, the likes of which the world
environment, and if we get this right, we can reduce
has not yet seen, to force them to act. Greta Thunberg,
carbon footprints quite quickly. House building, however,
the youth climate strikers and the global climate movement
has not really changed much since I did my apprenticeship,
have shown us all the way. It is now time for us in this
which I started in 1987. We still dig huge holes in the
place to join them, to build a movement and show that
ground, pour in tonnes of concrete, and build on top of
our democracy is capable of changing course and building
it with materials that have a massive carbon footprint.
a better and more sustainable future.
Cement is said to account for 7% of the world’s carbon
emissions—an enormous figure. Unless we change the
4.49 pm way we build, we will not be able to reduce it quickly.
Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con): It is a great honour The Government have a really good ambition to
speak in this debate and to follow the maiden speech of build homes, which is absolutely the right thing to do:
my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher), we must build the homes that families need. New building
but I do have to take issue with what he said about practices are available, enabling us to cut the amount of
1095 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1096

[Derek Thomas] my speech, I would just like to say that all of us in

Warrington North wish Mr Speaker—the son of
carbon generated by building, as well as by the homes Warrington North’s first MP, Doug Hoyle—every success
themselves once they are lived in. In a surgery on in his new role; and you, Madam Deputy Speaker, in
Friday, I met a gentleman who is building part of his yours.
house on ground screws. A ground screw is not a Let me turn to my own new role. Every Member of
particularly modern invention, but it really should be this House has a solemn duty to their constituents, and
used much more. There is no need for deep foundations it is a duty that has rarely been so important, as we
or to dig up the ground and disperse the carbon once stand on the precipice of environmental catastrophe. I
again; the ground screws go into the ground and the am proud that Labour-led Warrington Borough Council
whole structure is built on the ground screws. There is has declared a climate emergency, and I will be working
no reason why, where it can be done, that should not be with it to deliver a green industrial revolution that puts
the default method of house building. power, in its most literal sense, into the hands of our
In Cornwall and many parts of the country, the community. We have a long-standing science and
ground is exceptionally hard. This builder is also insulating engineering base in the town. Indeed, it is not uncommon
his floor with recycled glass, and the floor itself is made to run into nuclear physicists at the pub. Warrington is
of limecrete, which does not have cement in it, so it strategically located to benefit from developments in
addresses the carbon footprint issue. It is possible to cut the wider region in hydrogen gas and tidal power,
the carbon footprint of building the homes that we among other sources of zero and low-carbon energy, so
must build—and we must build many more. It is really a real, green northern powerhouse is right at the top of
important that the Government find ways of ensuring my agenda, building on my work on a just transition
that the industry embraces every possible tool available with the trade union GMB prior to entering Parliament.
to avoid that carbon footprint. Of course, it is tradition in one’s maiden speech to
A lot has been said in this debate that I could mention, make reference to those of our predecessors. Both Helen
but I just want to touch on electric vehicles. There is an Jones and Doug Hoyle served the town with distinction
appetite in my constituency and around the country to over long careers, but I was struck by just how contemporary
get hold of an electric vehicle. Despite what has been both speeches feel today. Indeed, it tickled me to read
said by Opposition Members, we are seeing a real the maiden speech of the now Lord Hoyle from 1974,
growth in the number of charging points, and in the on the subject of the then European Economic Community,
ways in which cars can be charged conveniently. But I proving that some issues are perennial. Although there
suggest that the Government look carefully at the idea is a certain comfort to be taken from this as a new
of a scrappage scheme for diesel-guzzling cars for low- Member, I hope only that when the time comes for my
income families. Such a scheme would immediately successor to make their maiden speech in this place, we
provide a real boost to UK car manufacturing and the might have moved on from arguing about the EU. Out
development of electric vehicles, and would obviously of respect for the convention that a maiden speech
improve air quality. It would also mean quieter roads, should not be overly controversial, I will not labour that
and people all around the country would love to live point. But I do want to turn to another maiden speech
near quieter roads. It would reduce running costs for convention, and that is to tell the House about the
low-income families, and it is the right thing to do. I people and the place I stand here to represent.
worked on the idea with Cornwall Council last year, Having been rather forgotten about for some time,
and would love to see a real appetite in Government for northern towns seem to be the flavour of the month at
a scrappage scheme that allowed electric vehicles to be the moment, whether it is memes about the Labour
within the reach of low-income families in my constituency leadership contest or new Conservative proposals to pit
and around the country. Cutting emissions is good us against each other for the chance to win investment
business sense. This is not about making life much more that does not even begin to plug the gap in what has
difficult for people or even putting up their bills. If we been taken away over the past decade.
get housing right and really ensure that electric vehicles
are available, we can cut the cost of living for so many I would suggest to anyone looking for a town of the
hard-working families. year that they need look no further than Warrington.
Warrington is a town whose local economy outperforms
In summary, the most effective way to achieve a many cities. We are a prosperous town with a buoyant
greener, cleaner environment is to encourage innovation, local economy, but there remain pockets of real deprivation
create a can-do culture when it comes to reducing and too many people struggling month to month. Our
carbon, use taxpayers’ money only to support solutions challenge, and my driving purpose, is to ensure that
and technologies that reduce our carbon emissions, and everyone shares in that prosperity. With my local food
much more quickly embrace proven methods that we bank doubling in size last month to cope with increasing
know can make our environment happier, healthier and demand, the urgency here cannot be overstated. As the
greener for everybody. town has grown, and with further growth expected, it is
also about ensuring that our infrastructure is fit for
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It purpose, from housing to the roads, to public transport,
is a great pleasure to call Charlotte Nichols to make her to our hospital provision and social care for our
maiden speech. communities’ most vulnerable residents.
There is a tired adage that we do not make anything
4.56 pm
in this country any more, but while Warrington has a
Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): Thank proud industrial heritage that earned it its nickname
you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity “The Wire”, it is not about being nostalgic about some
to address the House for the first time. Before I begin halcyon days past. Warrington has a proud industrial
1097 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1098

future too. We manufacture a fifth of the world’s gin in What concerns me is that the Government are knowingly
Warrington North at the G&J distillery, which has been under-delivering on their own climate action. We have a
going since 1761, and there is a really thriving local climate gap between our rhetoric in this House and our
craft gin scene with local businesses like the 3 Pugs action in this country, and this Queen’s Speech does
distillery started in Orford. But if gin is not your thing, little, if anything, to fill that gap. The point has been
don’t worry—we also have fantastic breweries like repeatedly made by Conservative Members in the short
Burtonwood Brewery and the Coach House Brewing time since the new year, in the build-up to the COP26
Company, and many fantastic pubs to enjoy their beers climate change conference in Glasgow, that this is a
in. But it is not just about booze. According to Make priority for them. That is all well and good, but as Greta
UK, there are 255 manufacturers in Warrington North. Thunberg likes to say: action, not words. It is actions
The future of manufacturing in Britain depends on the that the planet needs.
cost and security of energy as we decarbonise, making The climate gap is a serious matter. Right now, this
today’s debate very important. beautiful country of ours is producing far too many
The constituency boundaries in Warrington remain a emissions—millions of tonnes too many. We will soon
funny one, not least for the parts of Warrington South overshoot our carbon budget target unless the Minister
that are further north than parts of Warrington North, for Business, Energy and Clean Growth and the Secretary
and vice versa. Warrington Wolves’ Halliwell Jones of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
stadium is on the wrong side of Lythgoes Lane to fall instruct their civil servants to up their game and address
within the Warrington North boundary—something the climate gap. In this speech, I will helpfully outline
that I am hoping the Boundary Commission will address some suggestions for them and for the Secretary of
to right this historic wrong. Warrington North can State for Transport, who is on the Government Front
rightly claim, though, the world champions, Warrington Bench.
Wolves physical disability rugby league team, as they First, there is no mention in the Queen’s Speech of
train in Padgate—and we are very proud that they do. lifting the ban on onshore wind in England, but there
Gulliver’s World theme park also falls within both should be. Polling proves that many communities are
constituencies, although as it is predominantly the car keen to invest in wind technology, so that they can
park that is in Warrington South, I would say the real benefit financially, bringing the community together
fun happens in Warrington North—true of most things. and increasing local opportunities. Onshore wind is
Among the many, many things that Warrington South also one of the cheapest renewable technologies. By
can never take away from us in the north is our claim to effectively banning it, this Government are making
Old Billy, the oldest horse who ever lived, who died at decarbonisation more expensive by approximately £50 per
the age of 62—definitively Warrington North, and now household.
in Hansard for the record. The Government can and must move forward the
I will finish on this note. I am proud to represent a date for the ban on combustion engine vehicles. I am
town whose people have shown such resilience, good confident that in a few short years, every developed
humour and kindness both to me and to each other. I country in the world will only be using non fossil fuel
am truly inspired by the people that I have met doing vehicles, whether they are electric, hydrogen or use
incredible things in our community in Warrington North, other low carbon fuels. Huge market opportunities exist
and I will work as hard as I can to earn the trust that for the countries that get there first, not the ones that
you have put in me. get there last, and the UK should be there first. Countries
across Europe are investing hard in this; where are we?
5.3 pm
Brexit causes further, well understood barriers for our
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): I pay automotive industry. We face an uphill battle, and we
tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington are not winning it.
North (Charlotte Nichols), who has been my friend Thankfully, there was a commitment to moving forward
since she was an activist in North West Young Labour. the ban on combustion engine vehicles in the Conservative
It gives me real pleasure to see her arrive here—like me, manifesto, which also contained this line:
a new Jewish Member of the House of Commons. Her “Leeds is the largest city in Western Europe without a light rail
speech was incredible, and I am sure she will give many or metro system. And European cities are often more productive
incredible speeches in the many, many years that she than our own in large part because they have better infrastructure.”
will be sat with us in this House. I also welcome you I understand that Leeds is the only city outside London
back to your role, Madam Deputy Speaker. with a specific commitment. Conservative Members
Politics, as we know, is a conversation about who we will have read their manifesto more carefully than me,
are and what is important. I am glad that so many so if I am wrong, I am sure that they will correct me,
colleagues across the House have come together today although there are not many here at the moment to do
to highlight the importance of passing a liveable planet so. They may also be interested to know that I agree
to our children. The UK can stand by its record of with that line in the Conservative manifesto—they can
passing the first ever Climate Change Act under the last take that to the bank. When can the good people of
Labour Government and, more recently, the net zero Leeds whom I represent expect the necessary funding to
commitment under this Government. I am thankful be released to the West Yorkshire Combined Authority
that, in this country, there is a broad consensus on the to undertake a project of this scale, which will take
principle of the climate emergency. For some time, the many years to deliver? The Conservative manifesto also
climate emergency will be the greatest threat multiplier stated:
that we face. For our country, for our way of life and for “We will give city regions the funding to upgrade their bus,
generations to follow, we can and must do all we can to tram and train services to make them as good as London’s”.
tackle that threat and build a smarter, greener and more That is excellent—when can we start work on it, Secretary
equitable world as we do so. of State?
1099 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1100

[Alex Sobel] debate—the UK Government’s failed green deal scheme.

That scheme had laudable aims, but it was badly designed
Finally, I would like to touch on the big climate and allowed cowboy companies with criminal intent to
change event of this year, COP26. A huge diplomatic drive a coach and horses through the various loopholes
effort will be required, especially with the United States, in the legislation. As a result, hundreds of my constituents
to bring everyone constructively to the table. The UK have been defrauded, often for thousands of pounds, by
must have addressed its climate gap by then and have its Robert Skillen and his company, HELMS. Unsurprisingly,
own house in order if we want to command any kind Skillen liquidated HELMS and emigrated.
of presence, authority or respect at that conference and The Government must take responsibility for their
have a hope of delivering the kind of breakthrough failed scheme and ensure that our constituents are fully
moment that we had in Paris in 2015, when I was present compensated. The members of the green deal all-party
as the lead councillor for climate change on Leeds City parliamentary group and myself, as co-chair, will be
Council. Make no mistake: the Paris agreement is a renewing our campaign for justice for those affected by
high bar, and I have yet to see evidence that this Government HELMS in the coming Session.
will achieve a comparable breakthrough.
The Secretary of State and the previous Member for David Linden: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the
Devizes, Claire Perry—now COP president—are aware work he is doing in the all-party parliamentary group.
of the good work of the Powering Past Coal Alliance. I May I say to the Government, through him, that it
urge him to extend an invitation to all countries, especially would be helpful if the Department for Energy, Business
those that are still considering investment in new coal-fired and Industrial Strategy had a more adequate number of
power stations, particularly using UK Export Finance staff to work through the backlog of people who are
credit, that they might join this alliance, and that we trying to contact BEIS to deal with issues to do with the
might provide them with whatever assistance they require green deal?
for the transition from coal to renewables. I also urge Gavin Newlands: I could not agree more. I am seeking
him and his counterparts to consider a “net zero club” a meeting with the new Minister—the previous Minister
of countries that have committed to join the UK in involved was the then Member for Devizes—to see how
increasing their ambition, with legislation, not just to the assistance of BEIS has actually helped with the
reduce their emissions but to bring them down to zero, Green Deal Finance Company, because from our viewpoint
and to consider getting that number to include every it does not seem to have helped a whole lot.
nation at COP. Having that global net zero commitment
will achieve an agreement of the type that we saw in For a decade now, the Scottish Government have
Paris, and will create a net zero goal for the entire been pursuing a long-term vision of what Scotland’s
planet—but only if the UK can deliver our own end economy and society should look like in the decades to
and fill that gap between now and November, when come. It is a vision that sees all our electricity needs
COP takes place in Glasgow. coming from renewable sources, and the transport system
becoming carbon neutral. It is a vision that sees the
potential of the natural resources that we have all
5.10 pm
around us, waiting to be harnessed and used to benefit
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) us all. It is a vision that puts the reindustrialisation of
(SNP): I plan to focus my relatively short remarks on our country at the heart of the strategy, arm in arm
transport as it pertains to the green industrial revolution with the investment and renewal that has come to the
that is so obviously required. I look forward to taking fore over the decade.
up my transport brief and working closely with the My constituency is seeing the fruits of that long-term
shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for vision right now. For more than 50 years Renfrew—the
Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), and the Opposition largest town in my constituency and my home town—has
Front-Bench team, and with the relatively new Secretary been without a fixed rail link, and it is the biggest
of State for Transport, who must have the best job in settlement in Scotland that is entirely reliant on buses
the Cabinet, given that his predecessor set the bar so for public transport. That calamitous mistake from the
low that he cannot possibly fail to clear it. [Interruption.] 1960s is about to be rectified with the beginnings of the
In the repatriation of the Thomas Cook passengers, he Glasgow city region metro, which will start in my
managed to book airlines that actually had planes, so constituency at Paisley Gilmour Street, and finally provide
already he is one up on his predecessor. the airport with a connection to the rail network.
I formally congratulate my hon. Friend the Member That project is part of a green industrial revolution,
for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill). He may be new to and just as the original industrial revolution had the
this place but he has been in this game a wee while now, most expansive rail network in the world at its heart, so
and it showed in an excellent and passionate maiden must the 21st-century version have transport and
speech. I also congratulate all other new Members who connectivity running through it like letters through a
have made maiden speeches today. It is a tough assignment, stick of rock. Hundreds of people will be employed
but they have all done it with great aplomb. I well directly in building the project, and hundreds more will
remember my maiden speech, with you in the Chair, be involved in the supply chains—an economic impact
Madam Deputy Speaker, when you allowed me some that will go way beyond my constituency and those of
leeway at the end of my speech as I had gone over my my neighbours. Using clean, green, renewable electricity,
time; I am forever grateful to you for not cutting me off the new metro will be part of a public transport network
before the end of my speech. that is rapidly being modernised.
I want to comment on an issue that my hon. Friend Since devolution we have seen the reopening of the
the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) Borders railway, and routes from Hamilton to Larkhall,
raised in his Front-Bench speech at the start of the Stirling to Alloa and Airdrie to Bathgate, with only the
1101 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1102

former line not electrified. Virtually the whole central than in north-east England is not the answer to anything.
belt network now runs on electric lines, which contrasts Learn the lessons from Scotland, make decarbonisation
with years of stagnation and neglect. That programme a priority, and the economic rewards of the transition
continues, with preparatory work beginning for the can be spread across the UK.
entire west of Scotland network to run under the wires,
and longer-term goals of electrification north of Perth Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): It is
and the complete decarbonisation of Scotland’s railways a great pleasure to call, to make her maiden speech,
within the next 15 years. Olivia Blake.
Along the A9, the spine of Scotland, work on the
first electric highway is under way. Charging points are 5.19 pm
being installed at a rate of knots, providing the security
of energy supply that is vital for the transition from Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): Thank you,
fossil fuel vehicles to electric ones. As my hon. Friend Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to make my
the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun alluded to, maiden speech today.
in Norway, which has a strong Government plan and It is traditional for newly elected MPs to thank their
the will to make transformational changes, sales of predecessors upon entering the Commons. Jared O’Mara,
electric vehicles have grown exponentially. Petrol and the previous MP for Sheffield Hallam, highlighted
diesel cars are on their way out—some going for an important issues relating to the accessibility of this
oil-rich country—and a confident, independent, self- House. For that, he should be commended. While he
governing country is taking big decisions on the big had his faults, many of which he himself admits, I note
issues facing our planet. I hope that Scotland will soon that Members have recalled that his intervention in
join our Nordic friends as part of that club, whatever Westminster Hall on his own experience of autism was
obstacles the Prime Minister and his Secretary of State moving and brought the issue up the agenda. [HON. MEMBERS:
think they are putting in our way. “Hear, hear.”]
In contrast, the UK Government cannot decide whether I would like to begin by thanking the people of our
they want to make existing fuels cleaner and less polluting, beautiful, vibrant and diverse community of Sheffield
with a decision on E10 petrol still lying in the long grass Hallam for putting their faith in me. It is an honour to
where it was kicked. Over recent years, those on the represent this seat in Parliament. Hallam has a reputation
Treasury Benches and their Departments have been in a for being prosperous. It is not considered a typical
state of complete paralysis. Electrification projects are Labour seat, but the area has a very long history of
cancelled on a rolling basis, including in Windermere, social justice. To the north of the constituency is the
on the Nottingham to Sheffield line and in Hull, south-west village of Loxley, whose most famous son, Robin of
Wales and Coventry. Towns and cities have yet again Loxley, is also known as Robin Hood. So I am not the
been left behind, and jobs and economic growth directly first person in Sheffield Hallam to stand on a platform
connected to decarbonisation have been lost. Meanwhile, of redistributing wealth to the many, from the few.
Crossrail spirals out of control and over budget and My constituency stretches right from the heart of
Crossrail 2 is in the pipeline as if its predecessor never Sheffield city centre, deep into the Peak district. It
happened. Billions are spent on extension after extension showcases some of the most magnificent countryside in
to London’s underground and overground. Why concentrate the UK, including the many reservoirs surrounding
yet more spending, infrastructure, economic output, Bradfield and Redmires, and the ancient Ecclesall Woods.
resources, and ultimately people in a single city, when The area also has a proud industrial heritage. Walking
we know that a fairer allocation of economic power will through Forge Dam or Rivelin Valley, you can see the
result in a better environmental outcome and a less overgrown cranks and grindstones that once drove our
unequal society? economy. Fulwood ward was home to Thomas Boulsover,
If the UK Government were serious about boosting the inventor of the famous Sheffield plate steel. It is a
the economies of the north and south-west England, privilege to represent somewhere that played such an
they would look to Scotland for ideas. Instead, they are historic role as one of the engines of British industry.
presiding over delay and decay. In Tyne and Wear, Today, the seat also hosts thousands of students and
40-year-old metro carriages have had their lifespan extended researchers from all over the world; students who travelled
to 2025, while the system awaits new trains, more than a to Sheffield to study at both our world-class universities.
decade after the current ones exceeded their life expectancy. I am delighted to represent this young, diverse and
Even when the UK Government finally coughed up for multicultural community. Sheffield is such a great place
trains that brought to mind modernity and not Methuselah, to live and work that so many of our students stay on in
the then Chancellor handed over only 60% of the costs the city after they have finished their studies, meaning
requested. that we have one of the highest graduate retention rates
In conclusion, if the UK Government want to be serious in the country. However, we also have our problems. I
about a green industrial revolution, the short termism know that by convention maiden speeches are less political
and insular— than the other things that are usually said in this House,
but I hope Members will forgive me for bringing up
AndyMcDonald(Middlesbrough)(Lab):Metropolitanism. austerity, the climate emergency and Donald Trump.
Despite the history of Robin Hood, many areas still
Gavin Newlands: What the shadow Secretary of State suffer from massive inequality. Some of the most deprived
said—Hansard can ask him later what he said. If the areas in the city sit alongside some of the least. In fact,
Government want to be serious about the revolution, on polling day this was stark. We not only spoke to
that short-termism has to stop. Spending seven times people on the so-called millionaires’ row, but to families
more per person on transport investment in London who had been hit by the bedroom tax. Our students are
1103 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1104

[Olivia Blake] and

“an environment in which people ‘may have life and have it
saddled with tens of thousands of pounds of debt, and abundantly’”.
mental health issues are on the rise for our young Freeman was right then and he is right now: the only
people. Our schools have suffered almost a 10% decline way we
in funding per pupil and inadequate budgets for the “have life and have it abundantly”
needs of our children, with the previous Government
acknowledging that they did not give us enough funding is if we look after our environment. There is no social
for our children with special educational needs and justice on a dying planet. There is also no way to tackle
disabilities. As a councillor, I saw first hand our local climate catastrophe without changing the inequalities at
government budgets cut, cut and cut again. Government the heart of our economy, and without redistributing
grants have been reduced by 50% over the past decade, power from those at the top to the rest of us.
making it impossible to deliver services—never mind It is that belief in people that energised our campaign
tackle the climate crisis. in Sheffield Hallam. It is not a seat that people expected
Local campaigners battle to preserve our community Labour to win at this election. The past two years have
heritage, with their struggle to reopen The Plough Inn, undoubtedly been difficult for my constituents, but we
home to the second oldest football club in the world, ran a positive campaign, rooted in our transformative
Hallam FC, and where the rules of football were first manifesto, with our pledges to enact a green new deal
written down. and rebuild our public services taking pride of place.
The countryside in my constituency is beautiful, but My constituents told me that they wanted me to transform
it is under threat. The moorlands are on fire, burnt for our economy and save our environment. It is this agenda
grouse shooting. Those acts of vandalism have made that I will fight for in the House—an agenda that stands
flooding more likely and are also putting important up for our planet and redistributes power and wealth
species in the area, such as the bilberry bumblebee, at into the hands of our people; and that stands in the best
risk. Across the country, peat fires have thrown millions traditions of Sheffield Hallam, from the folk heroes of
of tonnes of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Protecting Loxley to those who fight to save our community spaces
biodiversity is a key part of tackling the climate crisis, and who are fighting to protect our precious moorlands.
which is why the national park, in its 70th year, is so I look forward to taking these arguments forward in
important to constituents and visitors alike. As we see the coming months and years, and I am pleased that I
biodiversity decrease locally, we also see the global am sitting between my hon. Friends the Members for
consequences of the climate crisis. As the world heats to Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss)
perilous levels, wildfires have swept across California, and for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh). Hillsborough,
dangerous heatwaves and floods have ravaged India, Heeley and now Hallam: three proud women representing
and now fires consume Australia. Across the globe, vast Sheffield. Thank you for allowing me to make my maiden
movements of people have left their homes because the speech, Madam Deputy Speaker.
coastlines that they once occupied have disappeared or
the land that they cultivated has dried up. They join 5.28 pm
refugees fleeing war and persecution. Those numbers
will only increase with President Trump’s actions in the Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I
middle east and his climate denial. I am proud that welcome you back and congratulate you on your re-election,
Sheffield calls itself a “City of Sanctuary”—a city that Madam Deputy Speaker. I also congratulate my hon.
welcomes and defends migrants. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake)
The climate chaos that we all face is unprecedented. not only on an extraordinary election result, but on a
Now is not the time for propriety; it is the old way of terrific maiden speech and on what she said specifically
doing things that brought us to this crisis. Some of the about the moorlands and the threat to them from man’s
industrial relics of that old way still stand in my constituency, actions.
but now we need radical change, and the only way we Almost 15 years ago, we were told by Lord Stern and
will get that is by taking radical action now. It is not just others that we had to act urgently to address climate
urgent; it is well overdue. The science is clear. The change. Former Vice President Gore called it right
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says that when he said that we faced an inconvenient truth. Now,
the absolute hard limit for transforming to a zero carbon not a week goes by when there is not a catastrophe
economy is 2050, but the world is burning now. That is caused by climate change somewhere across the world,
why I support my party’s pledge to work towards a path including floods in Yorkshire and Derbyshire, Jakarta
to net zero carbon emissions by 2030. and Indonesia, or caused by Storm Idai in Mozambique.
To meet that challenge, we need to channel the spirit Most recently, we have seen the devastation of communities
of industry and innovation that lingers along the rivers and the ecological destruction caused by the fires in
and valleys of my constituency in order to restructure Australia, Alaska and many other parts of the world.
our economy fundamentally. Rather than cuts, it is time The underlying climate trends are even more alarming.
to invest, not in the CO2 emitting factories of the first Perhaps most concerning of all was the report published
industrial revolution, but in the sustainable green energy this week in the periodical, “Advances in Atmospheric
infrastructure and high-skilled jobs of the green new deal. Sciences”, by a team from Penn State University. It
Arnold Freeman, Labour’s 1923 candidate in Hallam, concluded that the heat in the world’s oceans had reached
founded the Sheffield Education Settlement. It aimed to a new record level in 2019, which suggests the “irrefutable
institute and accelerating” heating of the planet. The world’s
“streets along which it is a pleasure to walk; homes worthy of oceans are the truest barometer of the climate emergency,
those who live in them; workplaces in which people enjoy working; as they absorb more than 90% of the heat trapped by
public-houses that are centres of social and educational life” the greenhouses gases produced by human activity.
1105 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1106

According to the analysis reports of the past five years, That would have happened had the Labour Government
those five years have been the warmest recorded for the been returned in 2010. We would have built high-density
oceans. The past 10 years are also the hottest on record. homes with low-energy consumption and ensured the
It is not just academics who are making the argument provision of local transport—good public transport
for urgent action. Back in September, the Governor of provided through hydrogen or electrification—to meet
the Bank of England, Mark Carney, put it simply: the needs of those high-density communities Labour
was planning.
“Firms that align their business models to the transition to a
net zero world will be rewarded handsomely. Those that fail to I want to turn to the automotive industry, an area I
adapt will cease to exist.” am passionate about. I respect and recognise the work
Clearly, it is no longer business as usual. Larry Fink, the the Government have done with the Faraday challenge.
chief executive of BlackRock, which manages £7 trillion- The introduction of the UK battery industrialisation
worth of assets, said in his letter to investors yesterday centre just outside Coventry is to be welcomed and the
that the climate risk must be placed at the heart of all work of Warwick Manufacturing Group, which I have
investment decisions. That is encouraging and I hope he seen for myself, is world leading, but the industry needs
can be trusted. I simply ask that he and other fund leadership from the Government and the frameworks to
managers look at the leadership shown by the Rockefeller encourage business investment and ensure a true transition
Foundation over five years ago when it stated it would as quickly as possible from the internal combustion
divest immediately from fossil fuel companies. engine to alternative fuel products. That is so important
for companies such as Jaguar Land Rover and Aston
Parliament needs to do the same. It needs to act and Martin in my constituency. Here again the CCC has
show leadership with its own pension fund. What is criticised the Government, saying that they have not
incontrovertible and irrefutable is still being challenged gone far enough or fast enough to address the opportunity.
by the deniers. That is why policy is so vital and why the
world’s first climate change Act, passed of course by the We talk about how we can make those products more
Labour Government in 2008, was so important. It affordable, and their price will fall in due course, but the
provided a true vision of what could be. It showed that market needs to be driven by Government leadership,
we could address the risk of climate change while and part of that leadership is about providing the
recognising the huge economic opportunity it presented. necessary infrastructure and addressing, for instance,
That is why the report from the independent Committee the paucity of supply and investment in electric vehicle
on Climate Change is so concerning. It states that the charging points. Let me put that it in context. In France
UK is off track to meet both its fourth carbon budget 24,000 public charging points have been introduced in
and the fifth carbon budget for 2028-32. Given the the past year, while the UK figure is just 6,500. That is
more recent statistics showing it is off track by an ever- why we are lagging behind, and why consumers are not
widening margin, the alarm should be even greater. switching to alternative fuel products.
When we reflect on the past 15 years—the period since We need more electric buses, and hydrogen fuel cell
the Stern report—we realise just how great the challenge technology needs to be encouraged. The number of
is and how little time we have. As Craig Bennett, chief hydrogen-powered buses in Berlin is well above the
executive of Friends of the Earth, has warned, the aim norm. There is also a huge opportunity to encourage
of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 is consumers to switch to electric bicycles. Great products
are being introduced across the market, but let us
“too slow to address catastrophic climate change”. compare the market uptake here with that in Germany.
I accept and commend much of what the Government Last year 63,500 electric bikes were bought in the UK,
are proposing, but I am worried that it lacks true whereas nearly a million were bought in Germany. How
ambition. Their points about air quality and setting will we ever encourage consumers to switch unless we
targets are to be commended, but we need to invest in give them incentives to buy those bikes? They also need
measuring and enforcing them to ensure they are actually infrastructure—such as the Kenilworth to Leamington
adhered to. cycle route, for which I campaigned and which, I am
Overall, the Queen’s Speech showed a lack of true pleased to say, the local authority is finally supporting.
ambition on the part of the Government. On energy There is much to be done. It is all about our ambition,
generation and infrastructure, the Swansea tidal lagoon and what the Government choose to do. However,
could be an opportunity for Britain to lead the world in addressing the climate emergency is not an option but
this technology, if only the Government could get behind an urgent necessity. We should be thankful for the
it. As we have heard from across the House, there is the students, the young people, who have been campaigning
opportunity presented by onshore wind farms, in which widely outside our schools and in our town centres.
so many countries, such as France and Germany, have How on earth can a group such as Extinction Rebellion,
invested heavily, but on which we have a virtual ban. which is so peaceful in its actions, be considered to be a
The Government instead prefer fracking . We have seen terrorist organisation? All that those people are trying
huge investment in offshore wind farms, which is to be to do is raise this issue and make sure that the Government
commended, but where the Labour party proposed to act with the urgency that is demanded by society.
build 37 new offshore wind farms, with 51% public May I suggest that we adopt the lexicon that we use
ownership, there was a deafening silence from the when speaking of the financial crisis, when we speak of
Conservative party. In solar, the number of installations debt and of the deficit? We should be talking about
has fallen by 90% since 2015. environmental debt and environmental deficit. At the
As well as generation, we must look at how we tackle same time as recognising how much we are costing the
consumption. On house building, we had a wonderful earth, we should be setting legally enforceable targets,
opportunity to build much better homes, with the and ensuring that all Government policies are subjected
introduction of standards such as the passive house. to full scrutiny and environmental audit here in Parliament.
1107 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1108

[Matt Western] offshore oil and gas plant production, and a major
offshore plant decommissioning base, Able Seaton Port,
Let me end by saying that it is crucial for us to lead by but jobs are either going or transient, and the decimation
example. Whether through the fleet of vehicles run by of our once-strong manufacturing heritage has left a
the Government or through our pension fund, we must legacy of unemployment in the town that has affected
show that we are serious about addressing the climate generations.
emergency. I believe that we must divest from fossil fuels With the green new deal, or the green industrial
in the parliamentary pension fund. revolution, which I know the Government are keen to
grasp, we need to look to areas such as Hartlepool and
5.38 pm the wider Tees valley to build on their existing infrastructure,
Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab): Thank you for calling knowledge and skills. Their experience in offshore oil
me, Madam Deputy Speaker—Madam Senior Deputy and gas technologies and their steel and chemical
Speaker! It is lovely to see you in your rightful place. manufacturing heritage speak volumes. We have the skills
and capabilities, the ready-made workforce and the
Being at the back end of the shift, it has been marvellous desire and technology to expand ports such as Hartlepool
to listen to a host of maiden speeches, all of which have and develop new technologies such as carbon capture
been fantastic. They took me back to the occasion on and storage and hydrogen power. We are well positioned
which I made my own maiden speech. I particularly to convert our traditional oil and gas and chemical
recall Dennis Skinner—who was mentioned very favourably industries into leading providers and manufacturers of
in the maiden speech of the new hon. Member for green technologies.
Bolsover (Mark Fletcher)—being a good mentor and
guide to all the new starters when I first entered the In the Tees valley and Hartlepool, we stand at the
House. I thank Conservative Members for their kind cutting edge of the green industrial revolution. We have
words about the so-called Beast of Bolsover. He would the potential and the desire to reshape our industrial
probably fall over at the thought of people building a landscape, revitalise jobs and embrace the future, but
statue of him, but it is a nice thought. we also need to protect the low- carbon industries
already in the mix. For me, that means taking a serious
I am thankful to my constituents in Hartlepool for approach and strategy to our nuclear energy provision.
returning me here, and for having faith in me to represent It is as essential to refocus our traditional offshore
their interests in this place. I am also thankful for the industries on to the creation of green technologies such
presence of the Secretary of State for Transport, who visited as wind farm production as it is to replace our low-carbon
our area recently. He was visiting the site of Hordern nuclear power stations with new nuclear being brought
station in Peterlee, which has not yet been built, although to Hartlepool. One of the most important Labour
the £10 million-plus investment in our area is incredible party pledges in its 2019 manifesto was to continue the
and great. However, I would ask the Secretary of State, nuclear programme as an essential aid to a low-carbon
with respect, to listen to the people who use that line. I energy future, and I am determined to work night and
appreciate the fact that Northern Rail has been taken to day to deliver on that. I therefore ask the Minister to
task, but the people who use the line know that by the meet me to discuss the future of the industry and the
time the train got to that station it would be packed to future of Hartlepool nuclear power station.
the rafters, just as it is when the train gets to Seaham.
The colloquialism round there would be: why bother 5.44 pm
getting a train when it gets so packed? So, if he could Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): I
look at our train issues, that would be great, and if he pay tribute to all hon. Members who made impressive
could work with our combined authority on regulating maiden speeches today. I wish them all well in their
our buses and bringing them back into public ownership, futures as representatives of their constituencies, and I
that would be even better. As he knows, the Tees valley hope that they all do well by their communities.
is an area that the Tories love to come to, so let us hope I suppose that particular mention must be made of
they listen to our constituents and bring in the necessary the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for
improvements. East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), whose reminders of
One more thing on my wish list is for the Secretary of Scotland’s past certainly stirred passion in the hearts of
State for Health to come to Hartlepool and talk to local those on the SNP Benches and, had you been in the
people about why we lost our A&E. A number of Chamber, it would certainly have stirred passion in your
Members today have spoken about threats to their own heart as a fellow Scot, Madam Deputy Speaker.
A&Es and hospitals. Sadly, we lost our A&E 10 years Turning to the subject of this debate, I was delighted
ago, and we would like it back, please. to hear that the UK Government will finally be taking
I could have spoken on any number of subjects in the steps to address greenhouse gas emissions. Equally, I
Queen’s Speech debate—the NHS, local government, was disappointed, but not even slightly surprised, to
social care, the police—but I chose to speak in this find that the target date for doing so is sadly 30 years in
debate not only because we need urgently to address the future. It is not so much too little too late as turning
climate change and global warming, which could see up with the fire safety manual long after the building
large parts of my constituency under water in the not has burned to the ground. We had a statement just last
too distant future, but because the need to tackle the week about the devastation caused by the worst Australian
climate crisis provides unique opportunities for former bushfire season ever, and I pointed out then, as I will
manufacturing-based coastal communities such as mine. point out again now, that Australia is not the only place
Hartlepool was once a proud shipbuilding and steel on fire. We have seen the Arctic burning, too, with huge
manufacturing town. The shipyards and the steelworks swathes of Siberian forest on fire in Greenland, Alaska
were its beating heart, but they are now long gone. We and Canada. Fires in the Amazon are also beginning to
cling on to our heritage with specialist steel manufacturing, threaten the ecosystems of the rainforests.
1109 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1110

We know that this is an emergency. We know that the having an ambition to paint every third plank of the
planet will change as a result of human activity, and the garden shed, but only halfway up and only at some
only question is, “By how much?”We know that biodiversity point in the future. In the meantime, the garden shed is
is being threatened and that the crops we rely on are rotting away and will collapse long before the painting
under threat. We know all that, but the UK Government is finished.
think that deferral and procrastination are okay and Way back in September 2016, I asked the then Secretary
that nothing much will change between now and three of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
decades hence, so let us have some sense and perspective whether she planned to maintain the air pollution targets
of what 30 years means. set out in the ambient air quality directive following the
The first report of the IPCC calling for urgent action UK’s withdrawal from the EU. In response, as often
and strong measures to prevent serious global warming happens, I got a lot of words and no real answer.
was published 30 years ago. Some Members of this The response claimed that the Clean Air Act 1956 is
Parliament had not even been born then, and we have an example of the UK acting to improve the environment,
wasted their lifetimes so far without real action. Something rather than responding to thousands of Londoners being
else that is interesting about the House of Commons of killed by smog in 1952. It touted the Act as evidence of
30 years ago is that the then Prime Minister was calling a long-standing UK commitment to environmental action.
for fast action to get emissions under control. Margaret It also said:
Thatcher might have been horrified were she to realise “Air quality has improved significantly in recent decades; we
that her party would still be footering aboot on the are working at local, national and international levels and will
edges of the issue three decades later. continue to do more.”
This is not just some sort of policy issue that can be The response never answered the question about a
revised at some future point. It is not just a passing fad commitment to match the EU’s air pollution targets.
that can safely be ignored. This is disaster politics This Government, in my view and in the view of
coming at us with a vengeance that we cannot easily many others, waffle a lot and deliver little, if anything.
comprehend. Failing to act now does not leave options The time for action was quite some time ago, and the
open to act later; it closes them down. A failure to act a response was and still is lacking. We have gone from a
heck of a lot more speedily three decades on will simply need to take action 30 years ago to a promise that action
condemn future generations to ongoing and escalating will be taken 30 years hence. There are no answers to the
effects that they will have to spend more and more time questions being asked, and no idea of what they mean.
contending with. It will also condemn us—the generation
that has had it so easy by comparison—to living a far Alan Brown: My hon. Friend is making a powerful
less comfortable retirement, because much of our time point about air pollution, and she is highlighting the
and much of the effort of future Governments will be real concerns. Does she agree that those concerns are
devoted to addressing the ill effects of Government backed up by the Government’s action? They have lost
failure now. to ClientEarth in the High Court at least twice because
The UK Government claim to want to lead the way they are not taking proper action on air pollution.
in addressing climate change, but they do not seem to There are 40,000 premature deaths a year due to air
be doing much to address climate change, so let us take pollution, and that the Government will not even commit
a donder with the IPCC. The latest report tells us that to matching the EU’s standards is a real concern.
three quarters of transport emissions are from road
transport, so if the Government were serious about Deidre Brock: My hon. Friend makes a fantastic
addressing climate change there would be massive point, and I can only agree with him. It is clear evidence
investment in electric vehicle technology—charging points of this Government’s continued failure to act, and I
and other infrastructure, to be sure, but also research appreciate his contribution.
into better, less expensive technologies. Where is the
commitment to do that? Where is the commitment to
build more capacity for rail freight and take some of the 5.52 pm
wagons off the road? Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Congratulations
The biggest emissions culprit is heating and power. on your election and on your return to your rightful
Will there be a zero rating of VAT on renewable energy place, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a shame that you
from construction to use? The Government will say have not been here for the whole day, because we have
they have no power to do that until they are free of the been treated to a range of first-class maiden speeches.
EU, so when can we expect to see that Brexit benefit? They have been of the highest order, and everybody
While we are it, what about exempting building works who has spoken should be congratulated.
and refurbishments that improve insulation? What about We heard from the hon. Member for Barrow and
investing in better houses to begin with? What about Furness (Simon Fell) about the A595, among other
offering incentives for insulation solutions like aerogel things, and he spoke with great aplomb. He also highlighted
for passive houses and for district heating schemes? the failure of Northern Rail, and I know the Secretary
There is no evidence that this Government intend to of State for Transport will have taken full cognisance of
do anything actually to lead on climate change, and what he had to say.
there is a similar lack of evidence that they have any We also heard from the hon. Member for Birmingham,
idea of what to do about air quality. The 25-year plan Northfield (Gary Sambrook). He paid a warm tribute
has an ambition, if that is the right word, to reduce five to Richard Burden, for which Labour Members are
air pollutants by half in 11 years—that is only five of very grateful. The hon. Member for East Surrey (Claire
the pollutants being pumped into children’s lungs, and Coutinho) made a stirring speech. The hon. Member
maybe only reducing them by half, eventually. It is like for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher) suggested a statue of
1111 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1112

[Andy McDonald] £100 million in aviation tax—air passenger duty. Plotting

to slash aviation tax in a climate crisis makes a mockery
Dennis Skinner, and my colleagues and I were speculating of the Government’s supposed commitment to cutting
on the response that might have been forthcoming from carbon emissions, and also demonstrates that they have
his old corner at such a suggestion. little plan to support industry and create jobs beyond
We have also been treated to a history lesson from the handing out tax breaks. Instead of handing out taxpayer-
young hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill). funded tax breaks for a small number of wealthy passengers,
He may have done it before, but it was very entertaining. the Government should be electrifying the core rail
We also had terrific speeches from my new hon. Friend network, boosting investment in the railway and slashing
the Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana)—her fares to encourage people to take the train. [Interruption.]
speech was powerful and inspirational—and from my I see the Transport Secretary chuntering about fares,
new hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Alex but he has presided over a further 2.7% increase in rail
Davies-Jones), who said that she is no shrinking violet, fares, taking the rise to more than 40% since 2010. We
which is very clear. We heard a passionate speech from can compare and contrast that with the Labour offer of
my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North a 33% reduction in rail fares.
(Charlotte Nichols), and we concluded with a stirring The Secretary of State can snigger all he likes, but in
maiden speech from my hon. Friend the Member for the past several weeks Germany followed our lead and
Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake)—I rather think it is in introduced a 10% reduction. Germany is going in the
the blood. So we have been well served. right direction: it wants people out of their cars and on
On the green industrial revolution, the issue at hand, trains. [Interruption.] If the Secretary of State is so
the absence of commitments in the Queen’s Speech keen to get on with this, perhaps he could get the
means it would appear that the Government think that Oakervee report out from under lock and key in the
because they won a general election with a campaign cupboard and publish it. We have a ludicrous situation
that ignored the climate change crisis, they can continue in which a minority report has been published and the
to ignore that crisis. I know that Government Members report’s authors know what is in it and are champing at
will protest at that characterisation, but it is accurate. the bit to speak to it, yet it remains under lock and key.
The Prime Minister refused to attend a debate on the What is the Secretary of State hiding? Let us have a
climate crisis during the general election campaign precisely look at it and have a discussion about it.
because he knows it is true that the Conservatives have While we are at it, the Secretary of State can ignore
not addressed and do not plan to seriously address the the siren voices from Andrew Gilligan about cutting
climate crisis. [HON. MEMBERS: “Rubbish!”] Conservative HS2. It would be absolutely ludicrous to cut off HS2’s
Members shout “Rubbish”, but this was a Prime Minister legs and abandon phase 1. I have heard nothing more
who during that campaign took a plane from Teesside ludicrous in a long time. If we want to get the capacity
to Doncaster. Let us just think about that. He was gains, that would be a foolish thing to do, so I hope
getting on a jet that could hardly have become airborne the Secretary of State talks to the Prime Minister and
before it had to land again—it is ridiculous. Of course totally scuppers that notion.
the Government’s own advisory body on climate change, The Government’s response to the problems faced by
the Committee on Climate Change, stated that the automotive sector has been similarly lacklustre.
“the fact is that we’re off track to meet our own emissions targets Thousands of jobs have been lost, and more might be
in the 2020s and 2030s”. lost in the coming months and years unless the Government
The Committee’s chair, Lord Deben, compared Ministers set out a clear strategy for the transition to electric
to the hapless characters in “Dad’s Army”. vehicles, including a more ambitious phase-out date; a
This inaction not only condemns us to a more dangerous scrappage scheme for the oldest vehicles; investment in
and insecure world, but exacerbates existing social and public charging infrastructure; and additional support
economic problems in the UK by failing to take advantage for the purchase of expensive electric vehicles—all
of the opportunities presented by decarbonising the accompanied by a plan to give the industry the support
economy to create well-paid, secure jobs and reduce it requires.
social and regional inequalities. Transport is the problem Other speakers, most lately the hon. Member for
sector for the UK. It is the UK’s single largest source of Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown), have mentioned
greenhouse gas emissions and the worst-performing the imperative in respect of air quality. He is exactly
sector on reducing carbon emissions. Indeed, transport right that we are enduring premature deaths directly
emissions have risen since 2010. This is both a crisis and connected to air quality, running to some 40,000 a year
an opportunity. There is an opportunity to invest in our in this country. That is an absolute and utter abomination
transport networks. We could upgrade our railways, and we have to take major strides in that direction.
have a long-term vision of their electrification and The difficulties of the bus manufacturer Wrightbus
invest in them going forward. We could invest in bus are another example of the Government’s laissez-faire
services throughout the entire country, and in e-bikes attitude to the economy and the climate. The UK has a
and electric vehicles. This would not only achieve the number of excellent bus manufacturers and has the
sort of carbon emission reductions needed to meet our potential to be a world leader in electric bus technology,
climate targets, but close the huge regional inequalities but the UK is not ambitious enough on electric buses,
in transport spending and create thousands upon thousands meaning we are not taking advantage of the industrial
of skilled, well-paid, unionised jobs as part of a green opportunities that a bold commitment to electrify the
industrial revolution. nation’s bus fleet would present.
Unfortunately, the Government do not plan to take
that opportunity. Indeed, within the past 24 hours they Alex Sobel: The world’s first electric double-decker
have responded to the troubles at Flybe by reportedly bus was created and delivered by Optare in Leeds, but it
allowing the company to avoid paying more than is not being bought by bus companies in this country.
1113 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1114

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is time the Government Andy McDonald: I am grateful to the Transport Secretary
supported Optare and ensured that we get electric buses for giving way. Had he been in the Chamber yesterday
out of the factory and on the streets? when I spoke on the issue, he would have heard me say
that I welcomed the Government taking action in respect
Andy McDonald: My hon. Friend makes a good of Flybe and recognised the importance of Flybe services
point. In the election campaign, I made the commitment to our communities right across the country. How we go
to electrify the entire fleet in this country. That would be about it is the important thing. The International Airlines
a major contribution to improving air quality and reducing Group is particularly interested in the package, and it
emissions. I encourage the Government to consider that will be asking why one corporate entity has been preferred
proposition again. If we can take that sort of bold step over another. It is a question for him to address, but I
to electrify the entire fleet, we can start to deliver some hope that he accepts that it is necessary for intervention
real differences. to take place.
A strategy to support cycling and walking—including
subsidies for e-bikes and a more interventionist approach— Grant Shapps: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman and
could similarly help to slash emissions and create jobs. thank him for putting the record straight. I was not in
Instead, the Government’s priority is to pursue a colossal the Chamber yesterday because I was dealing with the
road building programme that is environmentally issue itself, but it sounded to me, from his comments
unsustainable and will drive traffic growth and create earlier, that he regretted the rescue of Flybe, which I
congestion. Almost £30 billion will be spent on road was surprised about because there are 2,400 jobs at
building on the strategic road network. stake and communities that would have had no other
way of being connected. Just as an example of this,
Without a genuine green industrial revolution, the there are 46 Flybe routes that no other airline covers.
Government are condemning the country to economic There are 11 destinations that have no rail links whatever,
stagnation and a climate crisis. The Labour party did and a further 12 that it would take more than six hours
not win the recent general election, so sadly we cannot to get to. It was absolutely the right thing to do because
implement our programme, but the need to address the it helps to connect our communities and level up our
climate crisis and revitalise our economy remains every country. That is the right approach for a responsible
bit as urgent. Government when there is a strategic national interest,
which is what makes this different from previous airline
6.4 pm failures.
None the less, because the issue has been raised in
The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps): this afternoon’s debate, I will say that we want to see
Madam Deputy Speaker, let me congratulate you on aviation become much greener. This is an enormous
being re-elected to your post, and say how fantastic it is challenge and, indeed, as many Members have said, an
to be closing the debate on Her Majesty’s most Gracious enormous opportunity for this country. If we can get to
Speech this evening with you in the Chair. the front of that technological research and development,
There have been many eloquent and good contributions we can offer electric planes to the world. Right now, it is
to this debate. They clearly set out the huge challenges good to see that the University of Cranfield, among
that we face in decarbonising our economy. One point I other places, is working on an aircraft—a Britten Norman
would make straight off the bat is that, although there aircraft—which is the only British-manufactured general
has been quite a bit of heat and light in this debate, aviation aircraft, a commercial passenger plane, being
there is actually an awful lot on which we entirely agree. converted to an electric aircraft, which will fly in the
This House has, after all, voted under this Government Scottish highlands and do the island hops. It will be the
to get to zero carbon by 2050. There is almost an world’s first commercial electric aircraft, and that is
auction of ambition about how we get there in the happening in Britain. Across the House, we should all
fastest way. It is right and proper that we challenge each be doing everything we possibly can to get to the
other with different ideas, many of which have come forefront of electric aviation and, probably in between
through the contributions this afternoon, in order to then and now, hybrid aviation. It is a big part of my
come up with new ideas. Some of them are, I think, work. Members may think I am absolutely obsessed
ideas that could be taken further, particularly in the with aviation, but that is where ideas and new technology
field of transport. Other ideas, I know, have problems. will come from, so it is right to focus on it.
None the less, all were presented and suggested in the
best possible light and, because of that, I think that all Vicky Ford: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for
parts of the House will agree that this has been a very mentioning Cranfield University, because I recall being
good and useful debate this afternoon. asked to dig the first turf in the building of that facility
It is the first time that I have been at this Dispatch about a decade ago. It just shows what can happen in
Box since yesterday’s Flybe announcement. I just want 10 years. Does he agree that we need to harness the
to touch on that matter for a moment. Flybe is an power of consumers? Some low-cost airlines give consumers
airline that flies 9 million people a year. It connects the opportunity to carbon offset, but Flybe does not.
some of the most remote parts of our country—in fact, Will he join me in encouraging airlines to give consumers
some of the most remote parts of our nation. I was at least the option to offset?
pleased to see that the union, the British Airline Pilots
Association, welcomed the rescue, and I was somewhat Grant Shapps: I agree that it is a great idea for airlines
surprised to hear the Opposition spokesman say that he to offer carbon offsetting, but although that is a good
is not keen on this rescue, because it would have quite first step, I want to go further. We have the opportunity,
literally left quite a large number of communities completely the brains and the capacity in this country to invent the
stranded. future of flight, just as we helped in so many ways to
1115 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1116

[Grant Shapps] Member for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho) made a

fantastic speech, showing great knowledge of subjects
invent flight initially. I want us to focus on that, and a including offshore wind. She pointed out that seven of
lot of money and research is going into it now. At the 10 largest offshore wind farms are here in the UK
Cranfield, there is the E-Fan X plane—a BAe 146 —a great statistic. The hon. Members for East Lothian
aircraft built by de Havilland in my constituency back (Kenny MacAskill) and for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones)
in the day, which is being converted into an all-electric also made their maiden speeches in this debate. My
aircraft in a project sponsored by, I think, Airbus and hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher)
Boeing. This is a fantastic opportunity and we must proposed a statue of the “Beast of Bolsover”, although
take it. we do not know how that would be taken. His was a fine
speech.
Several hon. Members rose— The new hon. Member for Warrington North (Charlotte
Nichols) talked about her constituency—the constituency
Grant Shapps: If hon. Members do not mind, I will
in which I got married, it so happens—with great passion.
make a little progress. I am right at the beginning of my
speech and there will be plenty of opportunities to Finally, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia
intervene. Blake) also spoke about her constituency very passionately
indeed. There were fantastic speeches all around, and
Caroline Lucas: Will the Secretary of State give way? all concentrated on today’s subject of green growth.
Reducing carbon in the atmosphere is incredibly
Grant Shapps: On aviation, yes. important. I know we have had a bit of a debate about
it this afternoon because we will say, quite rightly, that
Caroline Lucas: If we can get some electric planes, our economy has expanded by over two thirds since
I will be happy, but does the Secretary of State accept that, 1990, but we have managed to cut carbon emissions by
right now, the increasing number of individual flights is more than 40%. I want to point out—because this was
outweighing the efficiency gains in each individual flight? questioned during the debate—that these are figures
In other words, improvements in energy and fuel are not that we have somehow come to but which have been
undermined by growing demand. Does he accept that calculated under the internationally recognised system
until we get to the sunny uplands of electric planes, for assessing the amount of carbon that has been cut.
demand needs to be constrained, and that the blanket The figures do show a 40% cut since 1990, which is
approach of APD will not constrain demand? faster than any other G20 country.
Grant Shapps: Let the Member who has never flown We continue to lead the world in this process. We have
argue on that subject. I mean no disrespect, but the legislated for zero carbon by 2050, becoming the first
reality is that we have to reach an in-between place major economy to do so. Of course, what happens
involving hybrid fuels. We probably have to go through internationally is important, but I do not accept the
a hybrid stage, as we have with road vehicles, where we argument that just because we cannot control what
use biofuels and other things. The Department is doing everybody else in the rest of the world does we should
a huge amount of work in that respect. not be making the effort ourselves. It is the right thing
to do, and we should be proud of our performance in
Wera Hobhouse: Will the Secretary of State give way? this area.
We also know that measures have to be viable and
Grant Shapps: With hon. Members’ permission, I will practical. It is easy to say that we should just follow
make a little progress first. I have not even touched on Norway, where a number of electric cars are sold. Does
anyone else’s speech yet, so let me talk about this the House know why that is so? It is because it does not
afternoon’s debate. We know that global warming is one have a domestic car production facility to protect before
of the biggest threats to humanity. That is why tackling the change to electric; it does not produce its own cars.
climate change is so important, and my right hon. Friend So to all those Members who say, “Look, why don’t we
the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial just do it tomorrow? Why don’t we just demand that
Strategy set out some of the measures we are taking. every car is electric from now on?”, the answer is:
The contributions to the debate have been particularly because every single factory in every single one of the
impressive, and I pay tribute to the nine Members I constituencies affected would be closing tomorrow. We
noted making their maiden speech today. Each was have to work with the industry and help it to make the
brilliant in different ways. My hon. Friend the Member transition, and that is what this Government are doing
for Barrow and Furness (Simon Fell) spoke about the every single day of the week.
poor rail service in his constituency—I am sorry about Let us not forget what this country has achieved so
that. Other Members mentioned rail services in relation far. We ratified the Paris agreement. More than half our
to Northern. The House will be aware that I have been electricity—53%—now comes from low-carbon sources.
speaking about that recently, and will again very soon. We fostered green industry, which is now worth £45 billion;
He made a beautifully pitched and calmly delivered and that goes to my previous point that we need to have
speech, showing how much he cares about the community a period of transition for industry. The new green sector
he now represents. Our hon. Friend the Member for now employs 430,000 people, so it is growing all the
Birmingham, Northfield (Gary Sambrook) spoke in time. We are setting a net zero target, and have committed
great terms about his constituency and everything going around £2 billion to green growth initiatives. An awful
on in the community, and did a wonderful job. lot is happening.
The hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) To manage these great efforts, we know that there has
described her constituency with great care, leaving us in to be a framework—an industrial strategy. The clean
no doubt about her passion for it. My hon. Friend the growth strategy, which details our carbon-cutting plans
1117 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1118

through to 2032, is exactly that document. In July we accountability and practical delivery at the heart of our
published our green finance strategy to trigger investment agenda while providing much-needed certainty for business.
in green infrastructure technologies and services, from The Bill includes measures to improve air quality, restore
offshore wind to energy-efficient housing. Of course, habitats, increase biodiversity, build a less wasteful
the Prime Minister will chair the new Cabinet Committee economy—hon. Members have mentioned things such
on Climate Change to help co-ordinate the effort of the as plastic waste, which it will deal with—and better
whole country to get to zero carbon. Later this year the manage our water resources.
UK will have the honour of hosting the climate change Crucially, the Bill will introduce a system for new,
summit in Glasgow. legally binding long-term targets in all these critical
areas so that central and local government—there has
Alan Brown: I want to go back to the argument of, been some talk about how local government fits into
“It’s great for Norway because they don’t have a domestic this picture—are clear on their legal responsibilities to
car production industry to protect, so they can do what protect our precious environment. I have been working
they want.” What are the UK Government doing to very actively with local authorities—for example, in the
change the domestic car production industry in the UK provision of electric car charging points—to ensure that
to allow it to capitalise on this market? The Government they have everything they need to be able to accelerate
were very good at making behind-the-doors, closed this programme as quickly as possible.
deals when it came to advance talks about Brexit, so
what are they doing to ensure that these companies can Those targets all have a minimum duration of 15 years,
adapt to electric car manufacturing? because given the scale of the challenge we face, which
has been so well articulated by Members across the
Grant Shapps: I am very pleased that the hon. Gentleman House, we believe that we have to be extremely ambitious.
has asked that question. There is £500 million to help a We have to consider the implications for business, for
gigafactory come to this country. That was not done industry and for the public. We must take people with
behind closed doors; we announced it publicly. I am us as we adapt to this enormous change, use new
sorry he had not spotted the announcement. This is a technology, and make sure that we hit the necessary
very positive way of ensuring that more car production emission goals, as we will have to do because they will
comes here. I should also let him know that one in five be there in law.
electric cars sold in Europe last year were made in the Although air pollution has reduced significantly since
United Kingdom—made right here. 2010 and emissions of nitrogen oxides are at their
Our support for the electrification of vehicles is second lowest level since records began, I want to acknowledge
to none. Let me give some examples. We now have more a couple of areas where I share the concerns of the hon.
charging locations in petrol stations, as one of my hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald). Since
Friends mentioned. We have over 200,000 plug-in chargers energy is no longer the most polluting part of our
in home locations. We have much more to do, though, economy because we produced 53% through renewable
and that is why both through the money already sources last year, transport is now the most polluting
announced—£400,000—and another £1 billion in our part of our economy. I think he gave the figure: 27% of
manifesto we are pledging to put a lot more resource all pollution comes from transport, and 90% of that
into having more charging locations so that people do from vehicles. There is a huge prize in solving this
not have as much range anxiety when they drive one of problem, and the technology is already here. I heard
these vehicles. The need for that was one of the key Members talk about the use of alternative and different
points made by Members across the House. types of energy for cars—hydrogen, for example. These
I know exactly why people are concerned. I drive an technologies are coming along. We have a £28 million
electric car, as I have mentioned before. I know the programme to further the production of hydrogen vehicles.
anxiety of wondering about whether one will get to In transport, it is horses for courses, so heavy items such
one’s next location, but the good news is that in reality, as trains will work well in future through hydrogen, and
rather than just the concern about it, I have never found lighter items such as cars will work better through
it to be a problem. Every single service station on the electricity. It is a question of developing in all those
motorway network in this country—now bar one, I different ways, and that is what we are determined
think—has electric charging. However, I want that charging to do.
to be faster. I want it to be rapid rather than just a There was a very interesting exchange about the
so-called fast charge. This Government absolutely share amount of NO2 in our atmosphere. A huge amount of
the ambition of this House to get that job done and get these particles come from transport, and although that
it done quicker. discussion was about whether pollutants and CO2 are
At the UN climate action summit, as Members know, the same thing—they are clearly not—the reality is that
the Prime Minister announced that we would double if we take a lot of the same steps it will solve the same
our contribution to £11.6 billion between 2021 and problems. It is good and right that the Bill we are
2025. That will do a huge amount to assist. I heard introducing tackles both those things: fine particulate
someone say during the debate, “That’s not right because matter and CO2.
it’s coming from international development.” If we do We know that there is a huge amount to be done, and
not think it is right to use international development I know that the whole House wants us to get there. One
money to save this planet, then I do not know what the of the most controversial areas is when we end the sale
money is there for. It is absolutely the right thing to be of petrol and diesel cars. I heard a number of calls in
doing. the debate to do that earlier than the already pledged
I am delighted that the Queen’s Speech includes 2040. I want to do that. I have spoken about that and we
significant measures to move forward our green programme will consult on it, but we need to do it in a way that
even further. In particular, the environment Bill will put ensures that people do not end up coming back to the
1119 Debate on the Address 15 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1120

[Grant Shapps] 6.28 pm

Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Tom
House saying, “What happened to that industry and Pursglove.)
those car producers in my constituency?” We have to do
Debate to be resumed tomorrow.
it in a way that works and takes the whole of the economy
with us in the best possible way.
PETITION
From some of the discussion this afternoon, it may
not be obvious that the number of electric cars has Chineham Post Office
grown from just 1,500 a decade ago to 200,000 today.
The growth in the last year alone has been enormous.
Electric car sales are taking off. I think I am right in 6.28 pm
saying that we have the second largest market in the Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): It is a great
European Union for ultra low emission cars. pleasure to present this petition with you in the Chair,
Madam Deputy Speaker. With very little notice, the
We are doing an awful lot of things behind the scenes busy and much used post office in Chineham was closed
to encourage take-up. For example, if someone goes to on 15 August last year. Residents from across Basingstoke
pay their road tax on the DVLA site right now, they will have told me how shocked they were by that and how
see a page that suggests that they might be able to pay much they relied on the services it offered. The strength
less road tax if they transfer to an electric car. I know of feeling is demonstrated by how many people have
that there are concerns about the overall costs of buying signed this petition. These concerns are being listened
a new electric car, but I want to make this point. When to, and I present this petition to underline the support
someone buys an electric car, they will find that their from residents to get a new operator for the post office
petrol bill disappears—it is replaced by an electric bill, in place as soon as possible.
but that will probably be a 10th of the cost. They will
find that there is no oil for the car and no servicing for I would like to thank Chineham’s hard-working team
the car, and the car tax may well be much lower. Given of councillors for supporting the petition—Councillor
that 85% of car buyers buy on a finance package—a Laura Edwards, Councillor Paul Miller, Sherfield Park
personal contract purchase—the overall lifetime experience parish council chair Jenny Vaux, and of course Councillor
of owning the car may not be all that different. But I Elaine Still who, as a former postmistress herself, knows
agree that we need to work hard to ensure that, as with the crucial role that this service plays in the community.
solar, where we have seen a 50% cut in the cost, we see The petition states:
the same with electric cars. The petition of residents of Basingstoke,
Declares that action must be taken concerning the recent
This has been an excellent debate. The Queen’s Speech has closure of Chineham Post Office Branch and the loss of vital
laid out an exciting programme to prepare Britain for services for local residents as a result of the Old Basing PO
the future, making us a more prosperous yet greener operator also withdrawing in recent years.
nation. We have a unique opportunity today, after The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons
three and a half years in which Brexit has—let’s face urges the Government to urge Post Office Ltd, Tellon Capital
it—dominated everything about politics and absorbed LLP and Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council to ensure that
so much time and energy. We now have a strong mandate Chineham residents have access to vital Post Office services and
to deliver our vision for a modern, green, growing priority is given to opening a branch as part of the new development
economy, and that is why I commend the Queen’s Speech at Chineham Shopping Centre.
to the House. And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002549]
1121 15 JANUARY 2020 Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: 1122
Shrewsbury and Telford
Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: maternal death. The Morecambe Bay inquiry reported
promptly, and the then Secretary of State, my right hon.
Shrewsbury and Telford Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Hunt), came immediately to the House, made a statement,
do now adjourn.—(Tom Pursglove.) and apologised to the families. He pledged that lessons
would be learned, and that the legacy of those tragic
6.31 pm deaths would mean that such things could not happen
again. My right hon. Friend is in the Chamber today,
Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): I am delighted to have and I am grateful that he did not just accept the position
been granted this Adjournment debate on this very taken by senior management, NHS bureaucrats, and
important issue. I want to raise it because the issue officials from Shrewsbury and Telford NHS Hospital
deserves the platform that Parliament affords. It concerns Trust at face value. I commend him for initiating the
the safety of women and babies receiving maternity Ockenden review, and for his commitment to encouraging
care at hospitals in Shropshire. I raise that in the context a culture of transparency and openness across the NHS.
of the Morecambe Bay trust inquiry into maternity We must continue with that approach.
deaths in 2015, which at the time was considered to be a
one-off. What has come to light at Shrewsbury and Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): I wish to
Telford Hospital NHS Trust suggests that there may be repay the compliment and thank my hon. Friend for her
systemic problems within the NHS and maternity care, tireless campaigning on this issue. It is not easy publicly
and there are without doubt significant concerns about to criticise a local hospital trust, and for an hon. Member
the lack of transparency and openness around what to do that, as in this case, shows enormous courage.
went wrong. Does she agree that the biggest mistake the Government
The Ockenden review was set up two and half years could make when they publish and respond to the
ago to look at 23 possible cases of maternity malpractice Ockenden review would be to say that this is a one-off
at the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital Trust. So far incident? The most important thing is to consider what
there have been no formal published findings. However, went wrong at Shrewsbury and Telford, and to learn
in November 2019 interim findings were leaked to the those lessons for the whole NHS. The big thing that we
media. Those findings show not only that had some learned from Morecambe Bay and Mid Staffs was that
very serious failings indeed been uncovered by the review, such lessons apply across the system.
but that the scale of the malpractice, and the number of
women and babies affected by it, exceeded anything Lucy Allan: My right hon. Friend makes an important
that had been expected when the review was initiated. point—I was going to come to it in my speech, so I will
bring it in now. The Morecambe Bay inquiry was led by
The interim findings stated that there had been in Dr Bill Kirkup, who said of the recent findings at
excess of 40 avoidable maternity deaths and 50 brain-injured Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust that
babies. NHS Improvement was given that information
“two clinical organisational failures are not two one offs”,
almost a year ago and appears to have kept quiet about
the findings. The findings also make reference to and that that points to an “underlying systemic problem”
“widespread failings, a toxic culture and a failure to that may exist in other hospitals. My right hon. Friend
learn lessons.” Since those findings were made public, is right to make that point, and I thank him for his kind
many, many more women have come forward—women comments.
who knew nothing about a review being held. The review The interim findings in the Ockenden review were not
is now looking at over 600 cases of possible maternity published, and I understand that the hospital trust has
care malpractice. not been told about them. The families were certainly
Those interim findings directly contradict what senior not told about them, and neither were MPs. There has
management were saying publicly at the time when the been no statement to the House, and we do not know
review was commissioned. Senior management claimed what action is being taken to ensure the safety of
that this was all overblown by the media, that it was all women and babies at Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital
historical, and that good practice was in place now. The NHS Trust.
chief executive claimed that concerns raised about the
possible scale of malpractice were “scaremongering”—his Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am an avid watcher
word. Senior hospital management adopted the stance of that Sunday night programme, “Call the Midwife”—I
that “it simply couldn’t happen here.” The CEO said that am not sure whether you watch it, Mr Speaker—where
the media, particularly the BBC, had it in for them; that everything seems to work out at the end of the day. The
is what they actually said to me, the MP. How, hon. Lady is outlining something that does not work
in that kind of environment, can lessons be learned if out at the end of the day. She mentioned families. Does
there is no acceptance that anything has gone wrong? she agree that the care of mother and baby must be a
priority, and that more support for mothers who have
We had the same response from the authorities in had several children must be considered, to ensure that
Telford when the scale of child sexual exploitation in they are coping and not expected simply to carry on
the town was revealed. That denial, or perhaps being because they already know what to expect? Every life is
in denial, seems to be the standard response from those precious and adds more pressures to families, particularly
in positions of authority—minimising the problem, blaming mothers.
the media and depicting those affected as being in some
way troublesome. Lucy Allan: I very much appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s
Let us compare the review from Shrewsbury and intervention. As always, he makes an excellent point,
Telford Hospital NHS Trust with that from Morecambe and I am grateful to him for his many interventions in
Bay, where there were 11 avoidable baby deaths and one many debates I have secured.
1123 Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: 15 JANUARY 2020 Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: 1124
Shrewsbury and Telford Shrewsbury and Telford
[Lucy Allan] very easy to talk about numbers, but every one of these
cases is unutterably terrible and ghastly for the family
I am concerned that the NHS can choose to sit on concerned, and obviously a total tragedy. We all know
this information, and that Ministers can say, “Well, we dreadful stories from the past. The latest figures show
don’t comment on leaks”. This is about the safety of that the infant mortality rate at Shrewsbury and Telford
women and babies, and the adequacy of the maternity Hospital Trust is 3.7 per 1,000, against a national
care they receive in our hospitals today. Women were average of 3.9 and a national target, which I would like
repeatedly told that their case was a one-off tragedy, the Minister to comment on, of 2.6 by 2025. My hon.
that there will always be risks to childbirth, and that Friend has rightly raised the absolute horrors and the
such risks cannot be completely mitigated. Failings dreadful culture—we all know terrible stories—but does
seem somehow to have been normalised, and at the time she derive any satisfaction from the fact that we are
many women accepted that, rather than question or marginally better than the national average at the moment
challenge the care they received. People trust the medical and possibly heading towards the national target by
profession, which is why openness and transparency are 2025?
so crucial.
When people raised concerns they were dismissed as Lucy Allan: My right hon. Friend makes a very
being difficult—no one listened. There was a “we know important point. Clearly, the majority of women using
best” attitude, and complaints about poor practice were these services have an excellent and safe experience. It is
treated as women making a fuss about a perfectly good news that there is progress and improvement, but
natural event that occasionally would have a negative we should not gloss over any of these cases. Regrettably,
outcome. As Health Secretary, my right hon. Friend there have been new, recent cases in my constituency
spoke about “never events”, and I suggest that those where women have come forward, having been made
must include an avoidable death. A baby dying in childbirth aware of the review, saying, “This happened to me a
should therefore be a “never event”, yet it seems that couple of years ago.” It is good that the numbers are
that is not the way the deaths in this case were treated—they improving, but we must make sure that every one of those
were treated as something that could be a result of deaths is treated as another event.
childbirth. The trust even boasted of having the lowest
number of caesarean deliveries in the country, so there Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) rose—
seems to have been an unwillingness to intervene when
there were complications in a delivery. In my view, an Lucy Allan: I shall be glad to give way to my other
intervention during a difficult birth must be a good constituency neighbour.
thing: that is what the clinicians and medical professionals
are there to do. I am concerned about the way this trust Philip Dunne: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend.
appears to have treated women and about its attitude I completely agree with my constituency neighbour, my
towards women, which seems to have been dismissive. right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire
And that is something we have seen from the top. (Mr Paterson), that she is making a powerful case. It is
quite right that she has brought this issue forward. On
What adds insult to injury in this particular case is
the subject of current practice versus some of the cases
that the trust commissioned a report in 2013 that appeared
that are being considered in the Ockenden review, which
to find that all was well. We now know, because of the
stretches back 40 years, she will remember that it was
leaked report, that that was in fact a whitewash. The
initiated by the case of a couple who were constituents
trust was exonerated by what was a perfunctory bare
of mine. They lost their baby in 2009, over 10 years ago.
minimum desk-top review. This allowed poor practice
Their concern was that, as my hon. Friend rightly
to continue unchecked. If it had been identified at the
identifies, the case had been inadequately handled and
time, the more recent cases of malpractice, which are
effectively covered up by the hospital.
still coming forward and include death and injury,
could have been avoided. We still do not know how One of my concerns, in addition to getting to the
many women and babies have been affected, but we do bottom of what has happened over a long period of
know that £50 million in compensation has been paid time, is that we need to be reassured, as local Members
out already. However, with hundreds more women coming of Parliament serving our constituents today, that the
forward, the cases in which a financial settlement has maternity services available to people in Shropshire are
already been reached are clearly the tip of the iceberg. safe and of high quality. It would be helpful if in some
way, given the scale of the inquiry that Ockenden is
The question we have to ask, and must go on asking, undertaking, there could be some interim finding on the
is whether that poor care, and the normalisation and current state of practice in Shropshire and Telford, so
denial of it, is a systemic problem within the complex that at least expectant mums who are going to use those
bureaucracy that is the NHS. services can feel reassured. That would not prevent a
more detailed inquiry going back into past practice.
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): Will my Does she agree with me on that point?
hon. Friend give way?
Lucy Allan: My right hon. Friend makes an excellent
Lucy Allan: I shall be delighted to give way to my point. That might be something that the Minister can
right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour. address, because we want users of maternity services to
have absolute confidence in the care that they receive.
Mr Paterson: I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing However, we do not create confidence by hiding facts. If
this very, very difficult subject forward. I also thank my we can get some of the facts out that have been leaked
right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey to the media, let us do that and deal with those. He is
(Jeremy Hunt) for launching the Ockenden review. It is absolutely right that that will help to reassure parents
1125 Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: 15 JANUARY 2020 Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: 1126
Shrewsbury and Telford Shrewsbury and Telford
and give them confidence in the services that are being I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for
delivered—the vast majority receive a very good standard South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), the former Secretary
of care, and safe care. of State, who asked NHS Improvement to commission
The trust, and possibly other trusts, must work towards the independent review of maternity services at Shrewsbury
a culture of openness and transparency and perhaps and Telford in 2017, which is two years ago now—my
show more of a willingness to accept that, “This can hon. Friend was quite right about that. I take mild issue
happen here.” I kept hearing, “Well, this can’t happen with one of her points, however, which was that NHS
here. It hasn’t happened here,”and I cannot feel comfortable Improvement kept quiet about the failings. I find that
if people cannot acknowledge where things have gone slightly disappointing, because the raison d’être of NHS
wrong. Improvement, which was also established by my right
hon. Friend, is to investigate, expose and learn from
I recognise that the Minister may not have all the
failings, so I think she would agree it is not something
answers today, and I do not expect all the points to be
that NHS Improvement would do. It is not in the
addressed, but we need to know why NHS Improvement
culture of the organisation; the exact opposite is true.
sat on the review’s findings for almost a year. Given how
serious they are, why has it not come forward to say, The review being chaired by Donna Ockenden, a
“This is what the Ockenden review has found at an clinical expert in maternity and a registered midwife,
interim stage”? was tasked with assessing the quality of previous
I want to ask who knew what and when. Were Ministers investigations and the implementation of recommendations
informed, or were they too kept in the dark? If this had at the trust relating to new-born, infant and maternal
not been leaked, when would we have been told? When harm. The original terms of reference covered the handling
will the review be completed? It has now been almost of 23 cases. The terms of reference have since been
three years. When will the Secretary of State make a updated and were published in November to reflect the
statement on this very, very serious issue? I also want to expanded scope of the review, and the review team will
know whether the management still think that this has be in touch in the following weeks with the affected
been cooked up by the media, or whether they genuinely families to ensure that they are appropriately supported
now realise that there is a serious problem to be addressed. throughout the process. I am afraid I have to inform my
It is very important that the Department of Health and hon. Friend and the House that the additional cases
Social Care and NHS bodies understand and acknowledge have now been identified and the total number relevant
the seriousness, and that all parties are encouraged to to the review now stands at 900, a small number of
be open about it. which go back 40 years.
As a constituency MP who has had women contact The extra cases have been found by a number of
me recently to share their birth experiences at the trust, means—from looking at previous incidents reported at
it seems to me that red lights are flashing. We need to the hospital to parents brave enough to come forward
know what is being done to ensure the safety of women and talk about their own experiences. I am sure my hon.
and their babies using this service. I very much thank Friend will understand that, unlike with Morecambe
the Minister for her forthcoming comments and any Bay, which involved a small number of cases, it will take
reassurances that she can give my constituents on this the review considerably longer to investigate 900 cases1.
issue. That is why there has been no report so far. The interim
finding was not 600; the number is greater. It is appropriate
that, while this important work is being done, we do not
6.47 pm influence or comment on it and that we let Donna
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Ockenden get on with her vital work. It is our responsibility
and Social Care (Ms Nadine Dorries): It is an absolute to let her do that and to provide the additional support
honour and a delight to be responding to this debate needed given the additional cases identified. It is a huge
increase on the original number of cases.
with you in the Chair, Mr Speaker—it is the first time I
have done so—and congratulations.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Telford Jeremy Hunt: I thank the Minister for her personal
(Lucy Allan) on securing the debate. Before I respond commitment to patient safety, which I have seen on
to her specific comments, I turn to the wider points that many occasions, but she will be aware that what she has
she raised that addressed the UK as a whole. just told the House is deeply shocking. She is saying
that the scale of potential avoidable death at Shrewsbury
To reassure people—mothers, particularly—I would
and Telford may be no different from that at Mid Staffs.
like to make one or two points about the wider context
Could she reassure the House, given the huge resources
of the debate: the safety of giving birth in the UK. The
devoted to the public inquiry into what happened at
NHS in this country remains one of the safest places in
Mid Staffs, that the Department will make sure that
the world to have a baby. The Government’s maternity
Donna Ockenden has all the resources and support she
ambition is to halve the 2010 rates of stillbirths, neonatal
needs, because getting to the bottom of this will be a
and maternal deaths, and brain injuries in babies occurring
huge job? Does the Minister also recognise that, while it
during or soon after birth, by 2025. That ambition also
will take more time, the families would also like it
includes reducing the rates of pre-term births from 8%
resolved as quickly as possible?
to 6%. I reassure her that we have already achieved our
ambition for a 20% decrease in stillbirths by 2020, so we
are very much on track with those ambitions. Ms Dorries: Absolutely, and I thank my right hon.
First and foremost, I express my heartfelt sympathies Friend for his comments. Yes, the Department is liaising
to every family who has been affected by previous closely with Donna Ockenden about what support she
failings in the trust’s maternity services. There can be no needs to conclude her work as soon as possible, for the
greater pain for a parent than to lose a child. sake of the families. As he will understand, the review
1.[Official Report, 20 January 2020, Vol. 670, c. 1MC.]
1127 Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: 15 JANUARY 2020 Ockenden Review of Maternity Care: 1128
Shrewsbury and Telford Shrewsbury and Telford
[Ms Dorries] already been done to address issues raised by previous
cases and to improve services, while acknowledging that
cannot be rushed; it has to be done properly and the trust—obviously—had further to go.
thoroughly. We have to get to the bottom of this matter, During the November inspection of the trust’s maternity
which is why Donna Ockenden is being supported in services, the Care Quality Commission found that the
the way she is. Anything she needs in order to conclude trust had taken action following the last inspection in
this review successfully she will have. I thank my right April, so it was clearly listening and implementing the
hon. Friend for his personal comments. As he will know, recommendations. As a result, there had been a number
and as he has said, I am utterly committed to patient of improvements. Although more work was still needed,
safety, to eradicating avoidable harms and to making staffing had increased, and morale and governance had
the NHS the safest place—not one of the safest—in the improved. However, I expect the CQC to keep a close
world to give birth. The review is important in the light eye on what is going on.
of that. Let me end by restating the strength of our commitment
As well as the families who came forward when the to improving the quality and safety of maternity care.
review was launched, media coverage has raised awareness As I have said, the Government’s maternity ambition is
of it, prompting further contacts with the trust and the to halve the 2010 rates of stillbirth, and we are on track
review team. More recently, Donna Ockenden herself to do that, which is incredibly important. Let me also
made a final appeal for any more families who believe say to my hon. Friend that, although I cannot reveal to
that they have been affected to come forward. I am her what is happening in the review—I cannot find out
grateful to all the families who have voluntarily agreed what is happening myself, because Donna Ockenden
to assist the review, although that may mean their needs that autonomy—my door is always open. If my
having to revisit painful and distressing experiences. We hon. Friend wants to discuss with me at any time what
expect it to conclude by the end of the year, at which I have said tonight about the improvements that are
point the Government will work closely with NHS being made at the trust, she need only pick up the
England and NHS Improvement to consider the next phone. I am there to answer any questions that she may
steps. have on behalf of her constituents, and I ask her please
As I have said, it is important for the review to be not to hesitate to contact me if she needs further
allowed to proceed unhindered, and without speculation reassurances.
about its conclusions or findings. However, I am very As I have said, the NHS remains one of the safest
aware that current maternity patients at the trust may places, although we want to make it the safest place.
want reassurance that they will be safe and looked after. What is most important is to ensure that the tragic cases
My hon. Friend the Member for Telford referred to that the Ockenden review is examining are not repeated
“red lights”. I can reassure her that steps are being anywhere else. That must be the objective. Women
taken at the trust. It is completely understandable that deserve a better maternity experience, and that is what
people are asking questions, but I have asked for a we are determined to achieve.
meeting with the interim chief executive, because I want Question put and agreed to.
to see for myself that those steps are working. She has
already made a public statement to reassure all families 6.58 pm
using the trust’s maternity services that much work has House adjourned.
1129 16 JANUARY 2020 1130

House of Commons remains. The crucial issue is the universal service obligation,
of which she will be aware. Fifteen per cent. of her
constituents get less than the 10 megabit limit. They will
Thursday 16 January 2020 benefit from that later this year.

Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab):

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock
This is my first questions session shadowing the Digital
Minister, who, as a former tech journalist, knows something
PRAYERS of his subject—and as a former telecoms engineer, so
do I. We both know that in towns, villages and cities,
everyone is suffering the consequences of a wasted
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] decade. Under Labour, we rolled out first-generation
broadband to half of all homes within a decade. But
today, full-fibre broadband only reaches a mere 10% of
Oral Answers to Questions homes, and we languish at the bottom of all the
international tables. The Prime Minister has promised
full-fibre broadband for everybody in five years. Does
the Minister have a plan for that? Who will be delivering
DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT it? How much will it cost? Will it really be fibre or just
gigabit capability—or are Big Ben’s bongs the only
The Minister of State was asked— telecoms infrastructure that he can plan for?
Full-fibre and Gigabit-capable Broadband
Matt Warman: As an engineer, I think the hon. Lady
1. Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): will know that a bell is not telecoms infrastructure, but
What steps her Department is taking to roll out full-fibre we will leave that to one side. The important issue that
and gigabit-capable broadband to every home and business she raises is one on which there is some cross-party
throughout the UK by 2025. [900200]
agreement. We are completely committed to rolling out
gigabit-capable networks across this country. That means
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, building on the work of the superfast programme to
Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): I begin by ensure that we deliver the infrastructure needed across
paying tribute to the former right hon. Member for the country. The plan for that will come forward. I hope
Loughborough, who is now Secretary of State for Digital, she will welcome the news that, immediately after questions,
Culture, Media and Sport from the Lords. She is still we will be heading to No. 10 to meet the broadband
very much the Secretary of State, and following her providers, to ensure that the industry can come together
elevation, she will shortly be watching us from the to deliver the best possible infrastructure, which this
Public Gallery. She will take questions—[Interruption.] country needs.
She will be here shortly. She will take questions in the
Lords herself next week. Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for (Con): The universal service obligation is welcome to
Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). She asks my constituents in Suffolk and to many rural residents,
about one of the few areas in the Department for but for rural businesses, the basic service commitment
Digital, Culture, Media and Sport for which she was may well not be enough. What more can the Minister
not responsible, but she knows how vital gigabit broadband do to support rural businesses that need a large amount
will be across the whole country. Finally, I pay tribute to of broadband capacity to support their staff and expand
the British people for rejecting Labour’s economically their businesses?
and technologically illiterate broadband policy at the
election. Matt Warman: My hon. Friend is right to welcome
the universal service obligation. Schemes such as our
Tracey Crouch: The Government’s ambition for full
gigabit broadband voucher scheme allow businesses to
fibre is to be applauded, but while coverage is generally
access the far faster speeds that they need, and there is
good across the majority of my constituency, I still
provision in due course to review whether 10 megabits is
receive regular complaints from residents and businesses
sufficient for the USO. I would like to see it go up as
that are unable to access even superfast broadband,
soon as it can.
including in significant pockets of urban areas such as
Chatham, Aylesford, Ditton and Snodland, as well as
more rural villages, where residents are deeply frustrated Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): Will the
at the lack of coverage. With so many people and Minister congratulate my constituents who are involved
businesses reliant on access to decent broadband, what with Broadband for the Rural North—B4RN—which
assurances can the Minister give that the future roll-out prides itself on delivering full-fibre gigabit broadband,
of broadband infrastructure will address those more not just gigabit-capable broadband, to thousands of
localised notspots and that they will not simply be left properties in my constituency? Phil Hughes from B4RN
behind? tells me that it is much cheaper sometimes to deliver this
broadband in very rural areas than in semi-urban areas,
Matt Warman: My hon. Friend is right that notspots where “in pavement” build is needed. Can the Minister
are by no means confined to rural areas. Through the clarify that the Government’s new gigabit voucher scheme
Government’s voucher scheme, we are covering all of will also work for smaller, community interest companies
the country, and the 2025 commitment to gigabit broadband such as B4RN?
1131 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1132

Matt Warman: The hon. Member is absolutely right and that it provided “financial stability”. It saw BBC
that B4RN does really great work and has been doing income boosted by requiring iPlayer users to have a
so for a number of years. It has a huge amount of licence. We have unfrozen the licence fee for the first
expertise that I hope we can learn from when it comes to time since 2010 and, in return for this, we agreed that
working across the country. One of the issues that we responsibility for the over-75 concession would transfer
will be raising at the summit that I mentioned, which we to the BBC in June 2020. The BBC needs to honour this
will be heading to shortly, is street works. It is very agreement.
important that that does not hold up works unnecessarily.
She is of course also right to say that the voucher Dame Diana Johnson: I am sure that when the Minister
scheme needs to apply equally across the country in a was, like me, knocking on doors in November, he was
way that works wherever people live. struck by the number of older people who were living
on their own who were relying on the TV for company. I
David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con): My think four out of 10 older people nationally do that—rely
constituency of Banff and Buchan is among those with on the TV for company during the day and evenings. I
the lowest coverage of superfast broadband in the whole heard what he said about being disappointed about
United Kingdom. Aberdeenshire Council applied to what the BBC has done, but disappointment does not
the UK Government for additional support. One of the butter any parsnips, so what is he actually going to do
reasons it was declined, it was told, was that it was about this to make sure that older people can keep their
assumed that that would be covered by the Scottish free TV licences?
Government’s R100 programme—the Reaching 100%
programme. Now that the Scottish Government have Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady makes a very good
admitted that this is going to be at least two years point. It is really important that people over 75 who are
behind, can we revisit the coverage in places such as on their own are able to get their TV licences paid, but I
Banff and Buchan, with support from the UK Government, remind her of the words of the former shadow Secretary
to make up for the shortfall left by the Scottish Government? of State, Tom Watson, who had the very good sense to
leave this place before the election. He actually admitted
Matt Warman: My hon. Friend is right to highlight that this was a decision for the BBC. In an interview
the deeply disappointing delays to the R100 scheme with LBC in late 2018, he actually criticised the BBC for
administered by the Scottish Government. I will shortly accepting this deal. I will say again that Lord Hall said
be meeting my Scottish counterpart, Paul Wheelhouse, that the overall deal provided “financial stability”, and
again to see how the Government can help the Scottish the
Government to go further and faster, because they “government’s decision here to put the cost of the over-75s
certainly need to. on us has been more than matched by the deal coming back for
the BBC.”
Free TV Licences
Tourism Industry
2. Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): If she will make
it her policy to maintain free TV licences for people
over the age of 75. [900201] 3. Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con): What
steps her Department is taking to support the tourism
15. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) industry throughout the UK. [900202]
(Lab): If she will make it her policy to maintain free TV
licences for people over the age of 75. [900214] 11. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What steps her
Department is taking to support the tourism industry
The Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries throughout the UK. [900210]
(Nigel Adams): The Government are disappointed with
the BBC’s decision to restrict the over-75 licence fee 14. Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): What steps her
concession to those in receipt of pension credit. As we Department is taking to support the tourism industry
said in our manifesto, we recognise the value of the free throughout the UK. [900213]
TV licence for over-75s, and they should be funded by
the BBC. We know that taxpayers want to see the BBC The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital,
using its substantial licence fee income in an appropriate Culture, Media and Sport (Helen Whately): Tourism
way to ensure it delivers for UK audiences. contributes £60 billion to the UK economy each year
and my Department is committed to encouraging visitors
Ruth Jones: If the Tories break their promise to older from across the world to visit the whole United Kingdom.
people and scrap their free TV licences, about 4,000 Our strong and growing tourism industry is good news
households in Newport West will be affected. This loss for the economy and local communities, supporting
of free TV licences would be a disgraceful blow to some small businesses and jobs up and down our country.
of the most vulnerable people in our society. No The tourism sector deal will help to solve some of the
Government should force people to choose between industry’s challenges and establish tourism zones in
heating and eating, or engaging with the outside world, areas with great tourism ambitions. The £45 million
so will the Minister finally listen and rethink the decision Discover England fund encourages visitors to travel
to scrap free TV licences for the over-75s? beyond London, contributing to levelling up across the
country.
Nigel Adams: May I gently remind the hon. Lady that
the Government agreed a deal with the BBC in 2015? Lee Rowley: I thank the Minister for her response. As
The director-general at the time said that it was she will know, in constituencies such as mine, the tourism
“a strong deal for the BBC”, industry is heavily based on our industrial heritage and
1133 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1134

history. The Chesterfield Canal Trust is midway through Helen Whately: I completely agree with the hon.
a restoration to celebrate its 250th anniversary in 2027; Member. I am very keen as a Minister to ensure that
it is restoring the final nine miles of the canal. May I visitors to the UK go beyond London and the great
invite my hon. Friend to visit the Chesterfield canal to cities, important though those are, and get to the towns
see the fantastic tourist offer in North East Derbyshire? and further afield. That is one of the things that the
£45 million Discover England fund supports, including
Helen Whately: I know that my hon. Friend has been with bookable packages to enable international visitors
working hard and lobbying a range of Ministers to to come and travel further afield. I want that to go
support the regeneration of the Chesterfield canal—rightly further in the months ahead.
so, as it is a fabulously ambitious project to restore that
historic and beautiful waterway in time for its 250th Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): I do not
anniversary. I would be delighted to visit to find out need to tell everyone in this place how beautiful Edinburgh
more. is and how important it is to the tourism industry in this
country generally. However, with our departure from
Mark Menzies: As you are well aware, Mr Speaker, the European Union, it will face a problem, not just
Fylde is at the heart of the Lancashire riviera, with day-to-day in the hospitality industry but every August
fabulous beaches and world-class golf courses. With with the festival; there is the issue of visas for foreign
inadequate transport infrastructure, however, people nationals coming from other EU countries. What will
struggle to access it. What representation is the Minister the Government do to ensure that important events,
making in Government to ensure that people can visit such as the Edinburgh International Festival, are not
our seaside gems? damaged by Brexit?

Helen Whately: My hon. Friend is correct that our Helen Whately: I thank the hon. Lady for her question.
wonderful coastline, including in his constituency, is As she will know, once we have left the EU with the
one of the great things that our country has to offer withdrawal agreement on 31 January, visitor arrangements
visitors. We are supporting coastal tourism, including will not change. The arrangements for the future, however,
with the £45 Discover England fund. The Government will be subject to the relationship negotiations with the
have also invested £229 million in the Coastal Communities European Union. We are shifting to an immigration
fund—including in his area—and there is the English system that will deliver on the needs of the United
coast path. I completely agree, however, that we could Kingdom, rather than being dependent on where people
and should be doing more to support our seaside attractions. come from. We will continue to engage with the tourism
I would be delighted to meet him to discuss his sector and the creative industries to ensure that the
constituency’s infrastructure requirements and to arrange system works as they need it to.
a meeting with the Secretary of State for Transport to
lobby on his behalf. Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): My hon. Friend
will know that north Wales is one of the pre-eminent
Adam Afriyie: Putting rivieras to one side, the Windsor tourist destinations in the country, with over 30 million
constituency enjoys 7 million visitors a year and I visits per annum. Increasingly, the area is specialising in
would say it is one of the most attractive constituencies adventure tourism, with such attractions as Plas Menai
in the entire country. Yes, we are known for military and and the world’s only inland surfing lagoon. Is she
monarchy, but we also have two race courses—Ascot willing to meet me and representatives of the North
and Windsor—and two barracks, with regular parades Wales Economic Ambition Board to discuss the possibility
in Windsor town centre. We have magnificent buildings of creating an adventure tourism zone in north Wales?
such as Windsor castle and Windsor Great Park, as well
as Legoland, which all our children enjoy. Does the Helen Whately: That sounds very exciting, particularly
Minister agree that investment in public transport and the inland surfing lagoon. I am not sure whether my
links to places outside London would make a huge right hon. Friend is asking me to visit the destination
difference when we are drawing tourists into parts of itself, but I would be delighted to meet him and colleagues
the country that are not the capital? to discuss the opportunities.

Helen Whately: My hon. Friend is an excellent advocate

for his constituency and all its wonderful places to visit, Yorkshire: Access to Arts and Culture
including Legoland, which is popular with my children.
I completely agree that visitors to the UK must be able 4. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What
to get to destinations outside London by public transport. recent steps she has taken to improve access to arts and
I welcome our Government’s commitment to investment culture in Yorkshire. [900203]
in public transport. I want to make that travel as easy as
possible for tourists. I would be happy to talk further The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital,
with my hon. Friend if he has any specific suggestions Culture, Media and Sport (Helen Whately): Through
to help visitors get to his constituency. Arts Council England, we have invested over £190 million
in Yorkshire for arts and culture programmes since
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Many of our northern 2017, including six projects in the hon. Member’s
towns have great tourist attractions, such as Norton constituency. Last year, we also announced £18.5 million
priory in Runcorn and the Catalyst Science Discovery for the National Railway Museum in York, which will
Centre in Widnes. What is the Minister doing to ensure support a £55 million transformation project to create
there is more focus on getting tourism into our northern new exhibition space and restore heritage buildings to
towns, not just concentrating on cities? their original glory.
1135 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1136

Paul Blomfield: I thank the Minister for her answer. Helen Whately: I think that my previous answer was
She is right to highlight the one-off and capital funding very clear. The Foreign Secretary made it clear that he
that has been available. That is welcome, but she will expected the conventions on world heritage to be adhered
know that the key challenges our regional museums to.
face are the fall in revenue funding; extra inflationary
pressures in the year ahead; and the continuing imbalance John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP): I
in funding between London and the regions. Does she am sure that we are all comforted to know that the
agree that the Arts Council should do more to rebalance Secretary of State is watching us from the Gallery.
revenue funding for arts and culture towards the regions? Further to the questions from my colleagues, the next
Will she agree to meet me and the chief executive of time the Minister speaks with the Secretary of State,
Museums Sheffield, ideally at one of our excellent who has been elevated to the Lords and so is beyond the
museums, to discuss the challenges they face? reach of elected Members down here, will she ask
whether she has had a firm guarantee from President
Helen Whately: I can see that my diary will get very Trump that he has withdrawn his threat? It is not
busy, but I am keen in my role to get out and about as enough to condemn the threat; has he withdrawn it and
far as I possibly can and spend time in regional museums, given that assurance?
not just those in London. I point the hon. Gentleman
particularly to the £125 million investment as part of
the cultural investment fund, which will go in particular Helen Whately: This questioning from the SNP feels
to regional museums and libraries to support their slightly repetitive. I think that the United States can
repair and maintenance. I am very keen to ensure that speak for itself on its policy towards heritage sites. As I
our regional museums thrive. have said, and as the Foreign Secretary has been very
clear, we expect the international conventions to be
UNESCO World Heritage Sites adhered to.

5. Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): Commonwealth Games 2022: Benefits to West Midlands
What steps the Government are taking to protect UNESCO
world heritage sites throughout the world. [900204]
6. Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): What steps her
16. Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Department is taking to ensure that the 2022
(SNP): What steps the Government are taking to protect Commonwealth games deliver benefits throughout the
UNESCO world heritage sites throughout the world. west midlands. [900205]
[900215]
13. Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): What steps
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, her Department is taking to ensure that the 2022
Culture, Media and Sport (Helen Whately): There are Commonwealth games deliver benefits throughout the
over 1,000 UNESCO world heritage sites globally. The west midlands. [900212]
UK is the proud home to 32, six of which are in
Scotland. The Government take their responsibilities The Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries
under the world heritage convention very seriously. In (Nigel Adams): Birmingham ’22 will be the biggest
recent years, we have sadly seen some of the world’s sporting event ever held in the west midlands, with the
great cultural treasures destroyed by conflict or natural region set to benefit from £778 million of public investment,
disasters. We are working around the world to help to and with venues spanning the whole region, from Cannock
protect world heritage sites. Chase in the north to Coventry and Leamington Spa in
the south. With a cultural programme running alongside
Carol Monaghan: Of course we are concerned about the games, there will be an opportunity for everyone in
the destruction of cultural sites due to conflict. Any the west midlands to get involved.
attack on one of these sites is an attack on our shared
global history, but when we have President Trump tweeting
one thing and his advisers saying the opposite, can we Julian Knight: The Minister has proven a doughty
really trust the assurances that these sites will not be champion for the Birmingham Commonwealth games.
targeted in conflict? Will he take up his not inconsiderable cudgels once
again and ask the Chancellor to provide the money
Helen Whately: The targeting of cultural sites contravenes requested by our regional Mayor, Andy Street, to fund
several international conventions to which the United the trade, tourism and investment programme to herald
States is a party, including the world heritage convention the start of these magnificent games?
and the 1954 Hague convention. The Foreign Secretary
was very clear that we expect those conventions to be Nigel Adams: I certainly will, and may I say that no
adhered to. one has done more than my hon. Friend to ensure that
women’s T20 cricket is included in the roster of sports
Gavin Newlands: The lack of direct condemnation of for the games, which is very important? Birmingham
Donald Trump’s threats by either the Prime Minister or 2022 offers fantastic opportunities beyond sport, and
the Foreign Secretary was actually pretty shameful. the Government are particularly keen to maximise
Putting to one side for just a moment the Government’s those opportunities. The evidence from previous
desperate need for a US trade deal, will the Minister do games demonstrates the positive economic impact that
what her colleagues have failed to do and unequivocally such events can have. The Glasgow 2014 games, for
condemn the White House and President Trump for his example, contributed more than £740 million to the
reckless and provocative threats? Scottish economy.
1137 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1138

Marco Longhi: Birmingham 2022 provides a great Nigel Adams: I know that my hon. Friend chairs the
opportunity not only to attract additional visitors to all-party parliamentary group on publishing, and he
the west midlands, but to increase jobs and skills in the brings valuable experience to the House because his
region, so what steps is my hon. Friend taking to career was in that field before he entered it. The publishing
achieve that for the people of Dudley—and beyond, of industry is a highly valued contributor to our creative
course—in conjunction with our great Mayor, Andy economy, here and abroad. The Publishers Association
Street? is a key member of the Government’s export trade
advisory group, and we will continue to work closely
Nigel Adams: May I first welcome my hon. Friend to with it as trade negotiations progress.
his place? I know that he has done an awful lot of work
for his local area as a councillor, and that he will be a Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op): For the
fantastic voice for Dudley North. We are working closely last three decades I have served my time as an actor in
with Andy Street and Birmingham City Council, with the medical shows “Casualty”, “Holby City” and
which we engage regularly. We want to make the most “Doctors”, but breaking my ankle the day before my
of the opportunities that my hon. Friend has rightly first DCMS outing is a plot point too far—so nobody
highlighted. The organising committee is expected to say “Break a leg”, please!
recruit 45,000 staff, contractors and volunteers. There The creative industries are set to lose more than
will be 400 new jobs in the athletes’ village alone, £40 million per year in EU funding. Stakeholders have
including 50 new apprenticeships. told me that they are holding off scheduling tours after
2020 because they fear costly delays and cancellations
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): caused by the complicated visa system. What steps is
May I, on the occasion of my first outing as shadow the Department taking to ensure that our creative industries
Sports Minister, congratulate the outgoing shadow Minister, can flourish across Europe? Is it planning to introduce
my hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan), creative visas and passports that will recognise their
on her work on fairness in sport? May I also mention—this unique situation?
is between you and me, Mr Speaker—today’s important
announcement about rugby league, with a royal flourish? Nigel Adams: I welcome the hon. Lady to her position,
I hope that rugby league will receive the coverage that it and congratulate her on her stoicism in making it into
deserves. the Chamber today. She stole my line about breaking a
leg. However, I am pleased to note that the administration
May I ask the Minister what steps the Department is of discipline by the Labour Whips Office has not broken
taking to ensure that the 2022 Commonwealth games down since the election.
are carbon neutral, and—importantly—what actions
can be taken now to improve the air quality at the venue I can assure the hon. Lady that the free movement of
so that in two years’ time the health of athletes, residents people will end when we leave the EU, as is set out in the
and visitors can be paramount? White Paper published in December. We will instead
have a new immigration system based on skills, not
Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady has made a good point I nationality. We have made it clear that we will protect
regularly meet the organising committee and I chair the the rights of EU citizens in the UK after we leave. We
strategic board, and I know that Birmingham City have commissioned advice from the Migration Advisory
Council is keen to see the outcomes to which she has Committee on various issues including salary thresholds,
referred. At our next strategic board meeting, next and we will be on top of this process over the course of
month, I will certainly raise those issues on her behalf. the year.
Topical Questions
Leaving the EU: Creative Industries
T1. [900218] Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe)
7. Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con): What (Con): If she will make a statement on her departmental
steps her Department is taking to support the UK’s responsibilities.
creative industries in future trade negotiations after the
UK leaves the EU. [900206] The Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries
(Nigel Adams): May I take this opportunity to congratulate
The Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries my right hon. Friend the former Member for
(Nigel Adams): The creative industries are one of the Loughborough on her elevation to the other place? We
leading lights of our economy, outpacing growth by continue to work very closely together. She is still the
two to one and employment growth by three to one. All Secretary of State, and it is good to see her watching
our sectors, including films, television, music, fashion, over us with a beady eye this morning.
publishing, design and advertising, are globally renowned This week it was announced that gambling with the
for their creative excellence. We are working closely with use of credit cards is to be banned throughout Britain
industry representatives on a range of issues to ensure from April, with the exception of non-remote lotteries.
their continued success in a post-Brexit world. This is an important step: we are acting decisively on
our manifesto commitment to take whatever action is
Andrew Lewer: The United Kingdom exports more necessary to protect vulnerable people from gambling-
books and journals than any other country in the related harm. I should also like to use this opportunity
world, and, according to the Publishers Association, to congratulate our on-screen and off-screen talent on
the UK generates £3.6 billion in export revenue every their incredible success at the Golden Globes, where
year. Will the Minister assure the publishing industry 40% of the awards went to Brits or to shows and films
that it will be remembered and championed as new free with a predominantly British-led production team. This
trade agreements are negotiated around the world? clearly shows the exceptional talent that Britain has.
1139 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1140

Damian Collins: It is important that we act to ensure T3. [900220] Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP):
that big social media companies do more to protect It is six months to the day since the Government
people from harmful content online, and that this should announced that the limits on charity lotteries would be
be overseen by an independent regulator with statutory raised, but to the frustration of charities and good
powers to ensure that they do so. This major issue was causes, nothing has been done and they are losing
looked at in the last Parliament by the Government and millions of pounds of potential funding. Could the
by the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee. Minister perhaps text the Public Gallery and ask the
Can the Minister confirm the press reports that the Secretary of State when this will be done?
Government will respond in the next few weeks to the
online harms White Paper, and that we can expect to see Helen Whately: As the hon. Gentleman said, we
a Government Bill in this Parliament as well? I would be announced last year that we would be increasing society
happy to accept either an answer from the Minister at lottery sales and prize limits. These changes require
the Dispatch Box or a positive hand gesture from the affirmative secondary legislation, and our aim is to lay
Secretary of State in the Gallery. this in Parliament very soon.

Nigel Adams: My hon. Friend is going to have to T5. [900222] James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con):
settle for an answer from the Box. We are committed to While I warmly welcome the pledge to deliver gigabit
making the UK the safest place to be online and the broadband, many of my constituents in Grimston,
best digital economy in the world. As the Prime Minister Heacham, Brancaster and other places have yet to
said at Prime Minister’s questions, we are developing receive speeds of 10 megabits per second. Will the
legislative proposals at pace and we will bring forward a Minister confirm that the plans are ready to deliver
Bill as soon as possible. minimum speeds from March, and that the Government
will hold BT to account to do that?
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): My father used
to enjoy a weekly 10 bob yankee down the bookies, but The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital,
he would have been appalled at the sheer volume of Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman): My hon.
advertising and the dodgy practices that are going on in Friend is right that we must ensure that the 10-megabit
picking on vulnerable people in relation to gambling. universal service obligation is delivered on the ground.
The Government seem to be following rather than We will of course continue to talk to the two providers—
leading events in this regard, with today’s intervention BT and KCOM—to ensure that it is there when it needs
from the NHS leadership adding to that. When are the to be in March this year.
Government going to introduce the new gambling Bill
that is so long overdue? Will the Minister tell us that T4. [900221] Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran)
right now? (SNP): The Scottish Government received just £21 million
of UK Government funding for broadband—3.5% of
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, the total funding in Scotland—with the other £580 million
Culture, Media and Sport (Helen Whately): I am slightly being paid by the Scottish Government. Despite the
surprised by the tone of the hon. Gentleman’s question. nonsense we often hear in this Chamber, broadband is a
The Government have been taking steady steps to increase matter reserved to the UK Government. Will the Minister
protections to ensure that people can gamble safely, therefore explain why the UK Government are failing
unlike previous Labour Administrations, who oversaw properly to fund broadband in Scotland?
a huge liberalisation of gambling. As we committed to
doing in our manifesto, we will be launching a review of Matt Warman: The hon. Lady is right that we hear a
the Gambling Act 2005, and work is going on right now lot of nonsense in this Chamber—primarily from the
to identify the scope and timeframe of that review. SNP Benches. It is deeply disappointing that the Scottish
Government’s delivery of R100 has been delayed again.
T2. [900219] Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con): Many The UK Government have provided significant amounts
people have had their lives ruined by a gambling addiction, of funding, and we will continue to work with the
so I commend my hon. Friend for her decision to ban Scottish Government to provide the help they so clearly
people from gambling using credit cards and therefore need.
using money that they often do not have. What other
steps are the Government taking to deal with the scourge T7. [900224] Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con):
of problem gambling? The Conservative-led Stoke-on-Trent City Council is
working to roll out full fibre broadband across the
Helen Whately: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Potteries with this Government’s unique funding. Given
He is absolutely right to raise this again, because there that Staffordshire University is a pioneer in game design
is a huge level of concern about gambling in this country. and video production and that this new Conservative
As he says, we announced this week that we were Government will be rolling out full gigabit broadband
banning gambling on credit cards, because we know across the country, does my hon. Friend agree that
that that is particularly harmful. We are also going to silicon Stoke is a real possibility?
review the Gambling Act to ensure that it is fit for the
modern age. Also, in healthcare, there is increasing Matt Warman: Silicon Stoke is certainly a real possibility,
support for people who are struggling with gambling and my hon. Friend is right that that is in part due to
addiction, including 14 new clinics being opened to this Government’s £5 billion commitment. I welcome
provide specialist support. the council’s work with certain companies, which shows
1141 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1142

that if we look further than the usual suspects, we can Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): The CPS’s ability to
get action on the ground that delivers huge economic successfully prosecute offences of domestic violence, or
growth. indeed any offence, is being undermined by prisoners
not being produced at court—a trial at the Old Bailey
T6. [900223] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): The has sat idle for two days this week for that reason. Does
EU copyright directive could be of real help to those my right hon. and learned Friend agree that more needs
who make perhaps a modest living in the creative to be done to hold those responsible for such an important
industries. Actors who appeared in shows such as job to account so that courts are not lying idle, affecting
“Casualty” or “Holby City”, for example, would find it victims and witnesses? Frankly, it is a crazy situation
easier to get the repeat fees to which they are entitled. that is not fair on the taxpayer.
Will the Government assure us that the directive will be
transposed into UK law as soon as possible? The Solicitor General: That is a very good point, and
my hon. Friend has considerable experience of prosecutions
Nigel Adams: We will of course consider whether to and the court system. The reality is that we expect those
adopt the copyright directive. I agree that it contains who are responsible for delivering defendants to court
many protections for our creative sector, but the decision to do so efficiently, and of course, in the vast majority
will be taken over the coming year. of cases, they do that. If there are cases that he wishes
to bring to my attention so that I can make direct
inquiries, he should please do so.
Leaving the EU: Human Rights
ATTORNEY GENERAL
2. Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): What
assessment he has made of the potential effect on the
The Attorney General was asked—
protection of human rights of the UK leaving the EU.
Domestic Violence: Prosecution of Cases [900227]

1. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) The Attorney General (Mr Geoffrey Cox): The United
(Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Kingdom has a long tradition of ensuring that rights
Director of Public Prosecutions on the effectiveness of and liberties are protected domestically and of fulfilling
the CPS in prosecuting cases involving domestic violence. its international human rights obligations. Our departure
[900226] from the European Union will not change that.

The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): The Crown Afzal Khan: There are real concerns about whether
Prosecution Service takes domestic abuse cases extremely the UK will remain a signatory to the European convention
seriously and is determined to bring perpetrators to on human rights as we leave the European Union. The
justice and to provide victims with the greatest possible convention has led to changes in UK law that protect
protection from repeat offending. In 2019, the CPS led victims of trafficking, tackle workplace discrimination
the implementation of a national domestic abuse best and ensure the rights of disabled people. Can the Attorney
practice framework for magistrates court cases, which General guarantee that this Government will never
aims to ensure consistent good practice from investigation withdraw from the convention in any circumstance?
right through to court by criminal justice agencies involved
in domestic abuse casework. The Attorney General: I am grateful for this opportunity
to reassert the Government’s complete commitment to
Dame Diana Johnson: I have previously mentioned our membership of and subscription to the European
the shocking statistic that Hull has enough domestic convention on human rights.
abuse perpetrators to fill our football stadium, which
holds 25,000 people. Some 746,000 domestic abuse crimes Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I
have been recorded nationally, which is up 24% in a welcome what the Attorney General has just said. Will
year. However, referrals from the police to the CPS have he take the opportunity to remind many people that the
gone down by 11%. Will the Minister explain what he United Kingdom is one of the founding fathers of the
intends to do about that? convention that gave rise to the ECHR—not least in
the person of Sir David Maxwell Fyfe, a distinguished
The Solicitor General: Before I answer, may I take this Conservative lawyer-politician? I know my right hon.
opportunity to congratulate the hon. Lady on her and learned Friend will want to continue in that tradition.
damehood? It is richly deserved. She asks an important
question. National implementation in this area is overseen The Attorney General: I am most grateful to my hon.
at a multi-agency level, and it is a priority for the Friend and, if I may, I offer him a word of congratulation
Government and the CPS to work to improve the on his recent knighthood. I am delighted to welcome
statistics. There has actually been a 21.6% rise in him in his new incarnation as Sir Bob.
prosecutions for violence against women and girls, an My hon. Friend will know I agree with him that, as
increase in charging and prosecution of offences of we leave the European Union, the country and the
stalking—80% of stalking cases happen in a domestic world should know that this nation stands for liberty,
abuse context—and a rise in prosecutions for controlling freedom and human rights. One mark of our standing
and coercive behaviour. However, I accept that more for those values will be our continued vigorous participation
needs to be done, and that is a priority for the Government in the Council of Europe and our subscription to the
and the CPS. convention on human rights. That should not mean
1143 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1144

that we do not turn a critical eye to elements of the but I want him to understand one thing: there is no
human rights structures in our country, and we will question of backsliding upon the fundamental principle
look at those in the time to come. of the independence of the judiciary.

Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): Although I Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and
welcome most of what the Attorney General has just Kirkintilloch East) (SNP): I welcome the Attorney General
said, the Tory manifesto says: back to his place on the Government Bench, but it was
“We will update the Human Rights Act and administrative
from the Back Benches, in February 2017, that he made
law”. a superb speech on the human rights of unaccompanied
asylum seeking children, calling on the Government not
Yesterday, at Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime just to pay “lip service” to those rights, but to make
Minister said that judicial review should not be them “practical and effective”. So if the Government
“abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless are genuinely committed to making those Dublin rights
delays.”—[Official Report, 15 January 2020; Vol. 669, c. 1019.] effective post-Brexit, why do they not just unilaterally
Can the Attorney General tell us which recent court decide to continue to accept unaccompanied children
decisions have been about conducting politics or causing with family members here? Why are the Government
needless delays? seeking to repeal even the modest obligations to negotiate
their rights under the European Union (Withdrawal)
The Attorney General: It has been an enormous pleasure Act 2018?
to appear opposite the hon. Gentleman. He is a
distinguished historian, a distinguished politician and The Attorney General: We are not seeking to repeal
an experienced barrister. this; we are simply removing the statutory requirement
to negotiate it. The Government wrote in October last
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Flattery won’t year seeking commencement of negotiation on family
help you. reunification. The principle is fundamental and one
to which the Government are committed: vulnerable,
unaccompanied children must be able to reunite with
The Attorney General: Of course it will. their family members in this country.
The hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds)
knows I will not be drawn into commenting on individual Hate Crimes: Prosecution Rate
cases, but what I can say is that there are widespread
concerns throughout our society and throughout this 3. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What steps
House as to whether judicial review is sometimes being the CPS is taking to improve the prosecution rate for
used in a manner, often through frivolous applications, hate crimes. [900228]
that needs better focus and care in its procedures and
tests. We will have a look at that to see whether the 8. Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): What
elements of judicial review could be better designed to steps the CPS is taking to improve the prosecution rate
serve its purpose of holding the Government to account for hate crimes. [900235]
for their administrative decisions.
The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): The CPS is
Nick Thomas-Symonds: I always welcome compliments, committed to tackling hate crime, working closely with
but I did not detect an answer to the question from the partners across government under the hate crime action
Attorney General. He often says that he is a lawyer first plan. The CPS has trained its prosecutors, drawing on
and a politician second. He knows that Governments expertise and insight from key community groups, and
are sometimes vindicated in the courts and that they has established national and local scrutiny panels to
also face decisions from the courts that are uncomfortable. inform decision making. As a result, last year the number
The answer is never to attack the independence of our of convictions for hate crimes with a recorded sentence
judiciary or our courts system. There is a real worry uplift increased to 73.6%, the highest rate yet.
that the Prime Minister is seeking some sort of vengeance
because he did not like the Supreme Court’s decision Bob Blackman: I thank my right hon. and learned
that his prorogation of Parliament was unlawful. Does Friend for that answer. Antisemitism and hate crimes
the Attorney General agree that if we are to weaken are on the rise right across this country. What further
judicial review, it will be not the Prime Minister who action can he take to make sure that the perpetrators
loses out, but all our constituents whose rights to hold are brought to justice and we eliminate hate crime
public authorities to account are watered down? forever?

The Attorney General: There is no question of weakening The Solicitor General: I thank my hon. Friend for
judicial review. The question is whether we can make it that question. He is right to be concerned about this
more efficient and streamlined, and more focused on issue. The rise in antisemitism is significant. One thing
the purpose: holding the Government to account for that has been happening is that mandatory hate crime
their administrative decisions. Even the hon. Gentleman training for the CPS has been developed, with community
will have to accept that some judicial review cases have involvement, including that of the Community Security
been brought that should perhaps never have been Trust. That has been delivered, and the CPS has refreshed
started—often they are indeed thrown out by the courts— a guide for lawyers on antisemitism, with the assistance
and we can prevent the courts being clogged up with of that trust. The guide includes key aspects of the law
those applications. So I say to him: let us wait and see. and victim support. We must do everything we can to
The Government are looking at this extremely carefully, stamp out this scourge of antisemitism.
1145 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1146

Sally-Ann Hart: I thank my right hon. and learned The Solicitor General (Michael Ellis): The ULS scheme
Friend for his response. The internet has hugely positive is an important avenue for victims, family members and
values, but it can allow the spread of hate crime behind the public to ensure that justice is delivered in the most
a veil of anonymity. What steps is his Department serious cases, which is why the Government have extended
taking to ensure that crime online attracts and is subject the scheme to cover further child sexual abuse offences,
to the same penalties in law as offline crime? as well as some domestic abuse offences, including
controlling and coercive behaviour. The remit of the
The Solicitor General: The proportion of hate crime scheme remains under constant review.
convictions with an announced and recorded sentence
uplift has increased from just 12.1% in 2014 to 73.6% Michael Tomlinson: I am grateful to the Solicitor
now. My hon. Friend is right about online instances of General for his answer. It is absolutely right that the
hate crime, and the hate crime conviction rate has also most serious sentences are reviewable, but will he also
increased in the past decade significantly. It now stands ensure that there is always a path towards rehabilitation,
at 84%, but we are continuing to work on dealing with and even redemption?
the issue of hate crime online.
The Solicitor General: My hon. Friend is quite right.
Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): Overall prosecutions have It has always been recognised in our criminal justice
fallen from a quarter to only one in 10. Why is the CPS system that punishment includes not only deterrence
prosecuting so few people for hate crime? Why is the but rehabilitation. That is something we seek to do in
number of prosecutions falling, not rising? Is that not our sentencing regime and in our criminal justice system
deterring people from reporting hate crime in the first generally. My hon. Friend is right to highlight that
place? feature.

Eddie Hughes: I am glad to hear what the Solicitor

The Solicitor General: There is considerable evidence General has to say, because the people of Willenhall
that people are particularly concerned about hate crime, and Bloxwich certainly do not want to see unduly
and I do not think they are being put off making lenient sentences for those convicted of rape, murder or
complaints to the police about that. We are constantly terrorism. When there is a referral under the scheme,
liaising at the Crown Prosecution Service with local how often is the sentence increased?
police forces about their conduct, and we focus very
much on getting results in instances of hate crime. As I The Solicitor General: The number of sentences
have said, the number of convictions for hate crime has considered by the Law Officers—the Attorney General
increased to its highest ever level.1 and me—has trebled since 2010. There were approximately
1,000 referrals last year, of which 86 cases were referred
Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): to the Court of Appeal and 50 offenders had their
There is no doubt that the rise of Islamophobia is sentences increased.
causing real concern and fear in the community, and
particularly in the community that I represent in Oldham. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I
The online platforms have been allowed to self-regulate often ask this question because it is a little campaign of
for far too long. It would be easy for them to have a mine. When people get unduly severe sentences, I write
simple “report it once” button that automatically feeds to the Solicitor General. It is usually women sentenced
through to the police. Will the Government do far more for a non-violent crime who get a long, disproportionate
to make sure that victims are protected and that we sentence. Does he welcome that kind of communication
raise the tone of the debate in our politics? from Members? What does he do about that
communication when he gets it?
The Solicitor General: The hon. Gentleman is right to
focus on this issue. The issue of Islamophobia is of The Solicitor General: I always welcome communication
particular concern, as are all forms of hate crime. We from the hon. Gentleman and, in fact, from any Member.
see examples of cases in this area being robustly prosecuted The issue of manifestly excessive sentences is one for the
throughout the country, and likewise we see examples defence in each case, and there are mechanisms by
of courts recognising the seriousness of these offences which, within a time limit, defence lawyers can appeal
with exemplary sentences. The sentencing tribunal has to the Court of Appeal against a sentence that they
noted that such sentences have been increased because consider to be manifestly excessive. It is not a matter for
of the Islamophobic or antisemitic element, or because the Law Officers; we deal with unduly lenient sentences.
of elements relating to other areas of hate crime. That is
right and should be a warning to all. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Assaults on emergency
workers continue to increase, particularly against ambulance
Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme: Extension workers and people working in the NHS and in the
police. Surely that is a disgrace. I have yet to see a single
sentence handed down in such cases that is not unduly
4. Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) lenient. One reason for that is that the Sentencing
(Con): What progress he has made on the implementation Council has still not introduced any guidelines in relation
of the extension of the unduly lenient sentence scheme. to assaults on emergency workers since the Assaults on
[900230] Emergency Workers (Offences) Bill became an Act more
than a year ago. Will the Solicitor General ring up the
9. Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): What progress chaps or the women who run the Sentencing Council
he has made on the implementation of the extension of and ensure that we get proper sentences for people who
the unduly lenient sentence scheme. [900236] attack our emergency workers?
1.[Official Report, 20 January 2020, Vol. 670, c. 2MC.]
1147 Oral Answers 16 JANUARY 2020 Oral Answers 1148

The Solicitor General: I think I can provide some personnel are serious aggravating features in many cases
reassurance because I have seen some cases where sentences and I know that they are already being prosecuted. The
have clearly been imposed for the offence mentioned by Sentencing Council is clearly looking at a number of
the hon. Gentleman, who played a large part in bringing offences, and I am sure that they will look at that one in
about the legislation. Assaults on emergency service due course.
1149 16 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 1150

Business of the House code. I therefore point him to section 6, which is entitled,
“Ministers’ Constituency and Party Interests”. The general
principle states:
Mr Speaker: Members should know that there will be
45 minutes for business questions and 45 minutes for “Ministers are provided with facilities at Government expense
the ministerial statement. to enable them to carry out their official duties. These facilities
should not generally be used for Party or constituency activities.”
I wonder whether the Leader of the House thinks that it
10.30 am is a breach of the ministerial code if a Minister uses
ministerial facilities to go into another hon. Member’s
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Will the Leader of constituency—for example, to visit a hospital—does
the House please give us the business for next week? not invite the constituency Member but invites the
Member for the neighbouring constituency, who is a
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob member of the Minister’s party. I have an example of
Rees-Mogg): The business for next week is as follows: that and I know that other hon. Members do, too. Will
MONDAY 20 JANUARY—Conclusion of the debate on the Leader of the House say something about that?
the Queen’s Speech on the economy and jobs. Will the Leader of the House comment on a breach
of public expenditure rules? The Commission’s statement
TUESDAY 21 JANUARY—Second Reading of the Direct on Big Ben is helpful for hon. Members—some may not
Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Bill, followed have seen it. It states:
by a general debate on the Grenfell Tower inquiry’s
“There has been a suggestion that the cost of striking the Bell
phase 1 report. could be covered by donations made by the public. This would be
WEDNESDAY 22 JANUARY—If necessary, consideration an unprecedented approach. The House of Commons has well
of Lords amendments, followed by Second Reading of established means of voting through the expenditure required to
allow it to function, and to preserve its constitutional position in
the Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold relation to Government. Any novel form of funding would need
Property) Bill followed by, if necessary, consideration of to be consistent with principles of propriety and proper oversight
Lords amendments. of public expenditure.”
THURSDAY 23 JANUARY—General debate on Holocaust Will the Leader of House pass that on to the Prime
Memorial Day. Minister? I suppose that it was better to talk about that
FRIDAY 24 JANUARY—The House will not be sitting. than the A&E figures, which are the worst ever. They
are so bad that the targets are going to be scrapped. The
The provisional business for the following week will Government cannot blame the last Government, because
include: they were the last Government.
MONDAY 27 JANUARY—Second Reading of the NHS This seems to be a bung-a-bob Government. Bung a
Funding Bill. bob to Flybe and let it defer its tax payment—we would
TUESDAY 28 JANUARY—Committee and remaining stages all like to do that. How can a Government bung a
of the Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) bob to a private company and not provide personal
Bill. independence payments to my constituents and to those
of other Members who are on palliative care and cannot
WEDNESDAY 29 JANUARY—Opposition day (1st allotted access PIP? Can we have an urgent statement from the
day). There will be a debate on a motion in the name of Work and Pensions Secretary as to why dying people
the official Opposition. are denied PIP?
THURSDAY 30 JANUARY—General debate. Subject to be I hope that there will be a full statement next week on
confirmed. exactly what the terms are for Flybe, because the
accountability of Ministers and the Prime Minister
FRIDAY 31 JANUARY—The House will not be sitting. coming to the House appears to be missing with this
Government: bung a bob for Flybe; warm words and
Valerie Vaz: I thank the Leader of the House for the meetings for the steel industry.
business until 31 January and for the Opposition day. I Is the Leader of the House aware that the leader of
know sitting Fridays are referred to on today’s Order Walsall Council said that families are suffering from
Paper. After the right hon. Gentleman’s response to my food poverty because they are having more children
hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) than they can afford to raise? He was referring to
last week, we had to do a quadratic equation to work families in Palfrey in my constituency, and saying that if
out the length of the Session. The Leader of the House someone is poor and from a black, Asian and minority
knows that there is a strong constitutional convention ethnic background, they should not be having children,
that Sessions usually last about a year. so it is okay for rich people to have children. There was
Mr Speaker, it was helpful last week that you gave a nothing about the root causes of social and economic
time limit for the business, as you have done again injustice. My constituents in that area are sometimes
today. However, I gently refer the Leader of the House working two and three jobs. Does the Leader of the
to columns 630 and 634 of the Official Report on House agree with those words, or does he think that the
Thursday 9 January, where he simply repeats ministerial leader of Walsall Council should apologise and resign?
statements. That does not leave enough time for hon. This is unacceptable.
Members to ask questions. Last week, I asked when the Prime Minister was
I know that the Leader of the House is keen on doing going to update the House on his talks with the EU
the right thing, whatever century we are in, and he President. Can he please do that now? The Prime Minister
knows that Ministers have to abide by the ministerial may not want to come to Parliament, but at least the
1151 Business of the House 16 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 1152

[Valerie Vaz] right hon. Lady is right to continue to raise it, because
putting pressure on the Government and holding them
Iranian ambassador was interviewed by Jon Snow on to account is part of what this House does.
Channel 4. The door seems to be opening for Nazanin I endorse the right hon. Lady’s suggestion that Members
and other dual nationals to return. Perhaps the Secretary sign the Holocaust memorial book. I am pleased that
of State for Northern Ireland could help out. He, along we are having the debate next Thursday, and that, prior
with my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Tony to the establishment of the Backbench Business Committee,
Lloyd) and others in this House, has done a brilliant job the Government have found time to ensure that it will
of bringing accountability to Northern Ireland. I am take place.
sure that he has found that job easier than being Chief
Whip.
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Can we have
The Holocaust memorial book is open next week in a debate on my Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019,
the Members’ Cloakroom, and I urge hon. Members to which became law in March last year? Indeed, the
sign it. Let us all try to bring forward that new world, Leader of the House supported the measure when he
which is based on tolerance and self-respect. was a Back Bencher. The purpose of the debate would
be to find out why the Government are still dragging
Mr Rees-Mogg: I am well aware of the constitutional their feet in introducing the code of practice mandated
convention regarding the length of a Session, and the by that Act.
Session, as with all Sessions, will depend on the progress
of business, but as this one has only just started, it is Mr Rees-Mogg: When I was a Back Bencher, I thought
perhaps a bit premature to see its ending. it was the most brilliant private Member’s Bill ever
With regard to the ministerial code and courtesy, the introduced. I am concerned that there is an allegation of
normal courtesy is that a Member informs another foot dragging. Feet should not be dragged by Governments;
Member of a visit to a constituency, but not necessarily Governments should be fleet of foot. I will therefore
invites another Member to attend the event. It is a take up this matter on behalf of my right hon. Friend,
notification rather than an invitation, so I do not think although there will also be an opportunity to do so at
one should extend the normal courtesies and expect Transport questions. It may also be something, Mr Speaker,
there to be an invitation. that you would consider for an urgent question or an
Adjournment debate, or—heaven forfend—a debate under
I note what the right hon. Lady says about Big Ben.
Standing Order No. 24; we have not had one of those
However, it seems to me that, with regard to bunging a
recently.
bob for Big Ben bongs, one should not look gift horses
in the mouth. If people wish to pay for things, that
should be considered as part of their public spiritedness Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): I note
rather than that they should feel that everything should that we are to begin Opposition day debates again, and
always fall on the hard-pressed taxpayer, but then, as a ask the Leader of the House to recognise that the
Conservative, I do not think that things should always Scottish National party suffered something of a
fall on hard-pressed taxpayers if that can be avoided. disadvantage in the last Parliament, in as much as there
were about one and a half days of time that we ought to
With regard to accident and emergency figures, there have been allocated, but were not. I hope, therefore, that
have been record numbers going through this year. The the third party of the House will be granted an Opposition
health service has coped extremely well with a difficult day in the short term.
winter. The Government’s proposals for funding the
health service will be coming into law following a Second I understand that NHS Funding Bill was in the
Reading debate on Monday 27 January, so the commitment Government’s manifesto, and they made a big feature
of this Government to the health service is absolutely of the issue in their election campaign, but it really is a
second to none. It is a very impressive record and one of political stunt of the greatest order. Notwithstanding
which the Conservatives, and indeed the country, can be that, I understand that we are talking about large sums
proud. of money, and it is inconceivable that this would not
have consequences for Scotland through the Barnett
With regard to Flybe, there was an urgent question formula. Therefore may I ask whether this Bill is to be
on that, and the House will continue to be updated. The considered in Legislative Grand Committee, either instead
role of this House is always to scrutinise how public of or as well as in Bill Committee? If it is, what
funds are used, and I am sure the House will be diligent opportunity would Scottish representatives have to put
in doing that. There will be Transport questions on forward their views and vote on these matters? If the
Thursday 30 January, where the matter can be raised answer is that they will have none, is this not an unnecessary
further. evil and is it not time, at the start of this Parliament, to
With regard to the number of children people have, I reconsider these ill-advised measures that were brought
am not one to lecture anybody. I am all in favour of in by David Cameron?
large families; I have six children of my own. I would I did not receive a satisfactory response to this question
always discourage people from being disobliging towards last time, so I ask again: when will the Government
people who have large families, because I think they are bring forward proposals so that this House can consider
absolutely splendid—the more children, the merrier. the fact that it does not have a mandate in Scotland?
The right hon. Lady quite rightly continues to raise For the first time in this Union Parliament, the two
every week in these sessions the case of Mrs Zaghari- principal countries have a different political mandate
Ratcliffe. The Prime Minister spoke to the Iranian on the question of the constitution. That is not something
President on 9 January; the Foreign Secretary did so on that this Government should ignore, and it is certainly
6 January. The matter continues to be pursued, but the not something that this Parliament can ignore. If Parliament
1153 Business of the House 16 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 1154

does ignore it, it will suffer consequences for its integrity. who wish to discuss specific rail issues in their constituencies.
Are the Government going to ignore this, or will they If Members do not receive an invitation, I ask them
do something about it? please to request one, and that applies to Members from
Finally, it would help me to frame future questions if all parties if they wish to discuss the issues that they
I could ask the Leader of the House personally: is he have. It is a good way to deal with the many issues that
committed to the claim of right for Scotland, which Members have.
says that the people of Scotland have the sovereign
right to determine the form of government best suited Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I am not currently the
to their needs? Chair of the Backbench Business Committee as it has
not been re-established, but I have been asked by Members
Mr Rees-Mogg: May I answer the last question first? on both sides of the House about the possibility of
Of course I believe in that sovereign right, but the hon. having debates in Government time in the Chamber or
Gentleman’s memory is a little short. The people of Westminster Hall. I have also been asked when the
Scotland exercised their sovereign right in 2014, and Committee will be re-established so that Members can
they decided to remain part of the United Kingdom. submit bids for debates about their concerns. As the
SNP Members may not like the decision made by the Order Paper includes a list of Select Committees today,
people of Scotland in their wisdom, but that is the what is the timetable for their re-establishment—I know
decision that was made, and that is why there is a that the Chairs have been allocated to the different
mandate for this Government in Scotland, Wales, England parties—and will the Backbench Business Committee
and Northern Ireland—because they are all part of the be on a similar timetable?
United Kingdom. It would be like saying that when If there is any time available in the Chamber or
there is a socialist Government, but Conservative MPs Westminster Hall, I have written to the Leader of the
in Somerset, there is no right to rule Somerset. It is not House about several debates that Members keep reminding
the way a democracy works and I am sorry to say that me to bring to the attention of the Government.
the point is fundamentally flawed.
Let me come to an area of greater consensus. I am Mr Speaker: I will make a statement later and it will
very well aware of how well the Scottish National party be my decision.
did in terms of representation in the local elections—
[Interruption.] Sorry, I mean in the general election. I Mr Rees-Mogg: Thank you for that very helpful
therefore recognise the importance of ensuring that point, Mr Speaker.
Opposition days are fairly given and that the third party The establishment of Select Committees is set out in
is recognised. The balance between it and the Official Standing Orders. The motions will be put down tonight
Opposition has changed, and that right must be borne and, assuming they pass, the elections will take place in
in mind in the allocation of Opposition days. On the 14 days’ time for the Chairmen. After that, the Committees
one and a half days, I kept begging the SNP to take up will be set up once the parties decide on their nominees
one of those with a no confidence motion, but it was for the positions. It will take place in the normal timeframe,
reluctant to do so in the end, so it was not entirely the but I am conscious of the need to get the Backbench
Government’s fault that the SNP did not get its full Business Committee up and running. The Government
allocation. are listening to requests for debates, hence the debate on
On the NHS Funding Bill, I can reassure the hon. Holocaust Memorial Day next week—although that
Gentleman that I have raised the question of Barnett was also desired by the Government.
consequentials, and they apply to the Bill, so it will
benefit Scotland. Certification under the EVEL Standing Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con): As the
Orders is a matter for you, Mr Speaker, and will come at Leader of the House will have seen from questions
a later stage. If it were to be so certified, all Members today, poor broadband and lack of mobile coverage are
would vote on Second Reading, Report and Third major issues for many Members and their constituents,
Reading, so opportunities would be available for Opposition including mine in Meon Valley. Can he timetable a
Members from all parts of the country to vote on the debate on the subject so that we can all put our concerns
Bill in its entirety. to the Government and the providers?

Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Over the past year, Mr Rees-Mogg: I congratulate my hon. Friend on her
train services from my constituency have significantly return to this place, which is particularly welcome. I
improved following previous industrial action and timetable represent a rural constituency, so I sympathise with the
problems, but in recent weeks train services have started representations on broadband. The Prime Minister
to deteriorate significantly. May we have a statement answered a question on it yesterday and £5 billion will
from the Transport Secretary on the need to improve be made ready. He promised broadband for the Cotswolds
network functionality? and I hope that that promise will extend to Somerset,
Hampshire and other distinguished counties across the
Mr Rees-Mogg: I am conscious that last week questions country. It is an issue that is raised constantly, and it
on rail services predominated and were the main issue may well be suitable for a Westminster Hall debate to
of concern for Members. That has been taken up with continue the pressure.
the Department, which is cautious about making a
statement at this stage because of issues of commercial Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): My
confidentiality. However, the Minister of State, Department constituents—like, I am sure, the constituents of Members
for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry across the House—are concerned about reaching net
(Chris Heaton-Harris), will hold meetings for all Members carbon zero as quickly as possible. Could we have a
1155 Business of the House 16 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 1156

[Thangam Debbonaire] be an opportunity to raise it in Health questions on

Tuesday 28th, although alternatively I may suggest that
debate in Government time about getting this place and he ask for an Adjournment debate.
all Government Departments to net carbon zero
considerably sooner than 2050? Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South)
(Lab): After months of worry, just before Christmas
Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady raises a very valid Npower announced its intention to close the Rainton
point, but there was a debate on all these issues yesterday Bridge customer service centre in my constituency, and
as part of the Queen’s Speech debate, and it would have there will be 4,500 job losses nationally. This was terrible
been possible to incorporate it in that. Time is limited, news for many people in my community and right
so when we have just had time for something, I cannot across the north-east. While trade unions are doing all
promise it immediately afterwards. they can to support staff at this time, would the Leader
of the House be able to arrange for me to meet a
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) Minister to discuss what additional Government resources
(Con): A society’s humanity is marked and gauged by could be made available to support Npower workers at
how the fortunate protect and promote those who are this time?
less so, in which spirit the Prime Minister last week
promised to tackle the issue of those with learning Mr Rees-Mogg: May I thank the hon. Lady for
difficulties and mental health problems in care who bringing this to the House’s attention and for seeking,
have suffered inadequate, inappropriate and sometimes in a traditional way, redress of grievance, which is
scandalous treatment. Will the Leader of the House absolutely what we are here to do? I will do whatever I
arrange for a statement to be brought so that we can can to facilitate a meeting with an appropriate Minister.
know when, how and what will be done to tackle this
issue? Our duty—our mission, indeed—is to care for Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Will
those at risk. my right hon. Friend please grant a debate on the
procurement of NHS orthodontic services in this country,
and indeed in Hertfordshire? A dental clinic in my
Mr Rees-Mogg: I wonder whether my right hon. constituency called Orthoclinic, which is a brilliant
Friend is alluding to the very troubling reports from clinic, has had its contract unnecessarily, and completely
Manchester about the abuse of children in care and the without reason, taken away by the NHS. I believe that
apparent failure of the authorities to deal with it effectively. this is a very important issue and it is happening in
This is a matter that should concern us all greatly; it other places in the country as well.
certainly concerns the Prime Minister. A crime prevention
strategy is being developed by the Home Office that will Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend raises a point that
cover these very, very important issues. may or may not have wider resonance in the House; it is
not an issue I have previously heard about. I would
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): therefore suggest that he use the normal mechanisms
The UK Government have rejected a declaratory system, for getting debates. If there turns out to be widespread
and that will inevitably mean that tens—perhaps concern, it is an issue that other Members will want to
hundreds—of thousands of EU citizens will lose rights take up with the Health Secretary.
overnight unless they have what the Home Office deems
to be a reasonable excuse. We are still completely in the Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): The Leader of the
dark about how that will operate. When will the House may be aware that yesterday the Internet Watch
Government clarify this issue? Foundation released alarming new data highlighting
the rise in the number of sexual abuse images of children
Mr Rees-Mogg: The system, so far, has been stunningly reported to the charity last year. He may also be aware
successful—an absolute triumph, for once, of Government that I chair the all-party parliamentary group on social
IT. Some 2.5 million people have already registered media; I was pleased to be re-elected this week. I will be
successfully. The system is more generous than required holding an inquiry into this issue, working with the
by the withdrawal agreement with the European Union. charity. Can we have either a statement or time for a
If anyone wants further details, there is a brilliant and debate, to ensure that the Government are working with
inspired piece by the Minister responsible in The Times’s every organisation to protect children from these heinous
“Red Box” this morning. crimes and that social media providers are tackling this
issue head-on?
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): Can I Mr Rees-Mogg: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the
ask the Leader of the House whether we can have a work he does in this incredibly difficult area and the
debate that we had in the last Parliament that got people in the police force who work on it, because it
cross-party consensus, on the prescribed medical use of must be some of the most distressing work that people
cannabis? This Government—the previous Government have to do. The Government have a clear plan to ensure
as well—changed the law so that medical use of cannabis better enforcement in this area and continued rigour
could be prescribed by consultants. However, the situation and are conscious of the responsibilities of media providers,
today is that if someone can pay for it, they get it; if be they online or offline. It is something that the
they rely on the NHS, they do not. Government will seek to take seriously. He is right to
raise it in the Chamber. I cannot promise an immediate
Mr Rees-Mogg: I know that this issue concerns many debate, but there were Department for Digital, Culture,
right hon. and hon. Members, and I am grateful to Media and Sport questions previously, and I encourage
my right hon. Friend for raising it with me. There will him to continue raising it.
1157 Business of the House 16 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 1158

Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): On behalf of
At charter renewal, the BBC gained various concessions. constituents who are contractors hit by the IR35 changes,
It got an annual inflation-linked increase in the licence may I ask for a quick debate on that issue so that we can
fee and an extension to the charter period, and it is no impress on Ministers the need to get on with the review?
longer asked to fund the roll-out of superfast broadband. April is very fast approaching, and this is causing huge
My proposals for the decriminalisation of non-payment uncertainty for those affected.
of the licence fee were also dropped in return for the
BBC agreeing to fund the universal over-75s licence fee Mr Rees-Mogg: In my view, it is a basic principle of
concession. good government that people should know what taxes
they are expected to pay, and that they should know
Given that the BBC now seems intent on reneging on them before the start of the financial year in which they
that promise to our over-75s, and noting the comments may be expected to pay them. The review is taking
of the Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago, does my place, and it will take place as quickly as it can be held. I
right hon. Friend agree that it is time to revisit think the hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the
decriminalisation as a method of protecting the poor fundamental fairness that people should know their tax
and vulnerable from this most regressive of taxes? When position.
will the Government find time to debate that matter?
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con):
Mr Rees-Mogg: It is worth pointing out that the There are communities and even large towns up and
criminalisation of non-payment of the licence fee falls down our country where bank closures have left thousands
particularly heavily on women, who are the ones most of people without easy access to a bank or businesses
often found guilty of this offence. My hon. Friend’s unable to deposit their takings easily. The post office
point is well made, but I think the Prime Minister has network is a part of the solution in maintaining access,
heard it, because he has made indications that this but more can be done to help people and businesses—and
matter may be considered. My hon. Friend, in raising it in a way that is efficient and profitable for sub-postmasters.
and campaigning for it, is doing a public service. Please may we have a debate about what can be done to
maintain access to financial services and the post office?
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): We await a Mr Rees-Mogg: This is an issue of great concern to
statement from the Secretary of State for Northern many communities, particularly rural communities where
Ireland momentarily. The Leader of the House will be the provision of banking services and post office services
acutely aware that the “New Decade, New Approach” has declined. It is important to ensure that the post
agreement contains commitments to legislation that office is able to help. Banking decisions are of course
will need to go through this House, not least my private financial decisions for banking institutions, but banking
Member’s Bill from the last Session, which introduces a institutions and all businesses do have a wider community
UK-wide statutory duty to adhere to the armed forces responsibility as well. I suggest that an application for a
covenant. That is great news. Has the Leader of the Westminster Hall debate would be the right step in the
House had any discussions with either the Ministry of first instance.
Defence or the Northern Ireland Secretary about when
that legislation will be brought forward? Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and
Strathspey) (SNP): Ironically, it is now more than six
months since the right hon. Gentleman’s Government
Mr Rees-Mogg: I cannot give a commitment on
promised to review the arbitrary six-month rule facing
the date when that business will be brought forward, but
terminally ill people trying to access universal credit.
the agreement is a cause for celebration, and therefore the
During that time, the Motor Neurone Disease Association
Government will want to ensure that the implementation
and Marie Curie estimate that more than 2,000 people
takes place in a reasonable timeframe.
have died while waiting to access their benefits. The
Government have had all the evidence. The Scottish
Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con): Commuters in Government, with limited powers, have shown the way
High Peak continue to experience train delays, cancellations by removing the rule for the personal independence
and overcrowded carriages. A lot has been said, quite payment. When will we see an end to this injustice? Can
rightly, about the performance of Northern Rail, but we have a statement on when this will end?
franchising is only part of the problem. Can we have a
debate on the Treasury rules, so that we can get the Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman raises a point
railway infrastructure investment that we need in the that will be a concern to many, and it is one on which a
north, especially on the Hope Valley line between review was promised. I will take this up with the relevant
Manchester and Sheffield? Minister immediately after this session.
Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): It was announced last
Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend raises an important night that a review of avoidable maternity deaths at my
point, because the investment rules are at the heart of local hospital trust is now increasing its scope from
how these issues are determined. They are under discussion, 23 cases to 900. This is deeply shocking news. Can we
to see whether business cases can be looked at in other have a statement from the Secretary of State on this
ways, which will inform a final investment decision in issue?
his case by the autumn. I mentioned earlier the meetings
that the Minister of State, Department for Transport, Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend had an Adjournment
my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton- debate on this issue last night, so it has been aired. It is a
Harris), will hold with MPs, and it is well worth taking matter of the deepest concern that the number of cases
him up on that offer to discuss specific cases. has gone up so much, and it is important that exactly
1159 Business of the House 16 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 1160

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Mr Rees-Mogg: I view it very much as part of my role

to try to facilitate meetings of that kind wherever possible.
what happened is fully understood. The review will be The issue raised by the hon. Gentleman is of concern to
carried out, and this House will no doubt have an many Members, and I will see what I can do to arrange
opportunity to debate its findings once they come through. a suitable meeting.

Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Last Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): May we have
year, the NG11 Clifton and Wilford volunteer clean a statement on the Government’s plans to relocate
champions collected 700 bags of litter in their local Departments and quangos to the north of England and
area. Will the Leader of the House congratulate Alma the midlands? That is something I very much support—
Davies and the team on their efforts? Does he agree that not least so that I can extol the virtues of St George’s
the Government should set out the action that they are warehouse in Huddersfield, Globe Mills in Slaithwaite,
taking to prevent and deter littering and fly-tipping and and Crowther Mills in Marsden, all of which would be
to ensure that public bodies, such as Highways England, fantastic locations for those Departments. They would
play their part in improving the local environment so also be affordable, not least because they are ideally
that those local volunteers feel properly supported? located on the TransPennine rail route.

Mr Rees-Mogg: I am speechless with admiration for Mr Rees-Mogg: The Government are keen to level up
those members in the hon. Lady’s constituency—Members across the whole country. That is an important ambition,
may be delighted that I am speechless, if only momentarily and a demand of the British people, as we saw at the last
—and of course I congratulate them. It is so wonderful general election. I will pass on my hon. Friend’s request
and inspiring to see people doing good in their communities. for more detailed information about the Government’s
I see it in North East Somerset with people going out plans. As levelling up is something we will be very
on Sunday mornings and picking up litter from the proud of, I am sure the Government will endeavour to
hedgerows. It is a reminder that we all have a duty not make everybody fully aware of it.
to drop litter in the first place; it starts with the individual.
There is also a role for enforcement—one increasingly Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): Having previously
sees signs saying, “Don’t drop litter: CCTV is in the thanked the UK, Welsh and Scottish Governments for
area watching you”—and ensuring there is enforcement, Martin’s funeral fund, I wish to add my thanks to the
perhaps most particularly of fly-tipping, where people Government of Northern Ireland, who introduced it
who think they can get away with it fiddle the whole after the reconvening of Stormont. The Children’s Funeral
system and undercut honest businesses at the same Fund is now in every corner of the United Kingdom.
time. Unfortunately, when I was burying my son, parents
who had stillbirth babies did not have the opportunity
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Each week, 12 young to bury their children. Many parents have come to me
people aged between 14 and 35 die in the UK due to asking whether we can help them to trace the graves of
undiagnosed heart conditions. A Harlow constituent of their children—nobody knows where they are—so that
mine suffered a tragic unexpected loss when her daughter they may also commemorate their loss. May we have a
passed away aged just 25, and simple cardiac screening debate in Government time about what we in Parliament
would have saved her life. Can we have an urgent debate can do to help those bereaved parents?
on the need for mandatory cardiac screenings of all
young people in the United Kingdom? Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady is very generous,
because it is thanks to her that the fund is now available
Mr Rees-Mogg: There is always a deeper tragedy across the whole country. Without her having campaigned
about a young death that was avoidable. The case raised and got a lot of support from across the House that
by my right hon. Friend is one of great sadness, and would not have happened, and the House ought to
where the Government can help, they ought to. He has acknowledge her role, as well as that of my right hon.
the right to put his question directly to the Health Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), who
Secretary during Health questions on 28 January, and I agreed to it. It shows how effective the House can be in
urge him to do so. It is not really my business, but if you campaigning. [Interruption.] Without my right hon.
are feeling so inclined, Mr Speaker, may I encourage Friend it would not have happened—the power of Prime
you to notice my right hon. Friend when he bobs on Ministers when being lobbied is important. Ministers
that occasion to raise this important issue? Perhaps he know that the hon. Lady is a formidable campaigner;
would also like to seek an Adjournment debate. when she raises an issue of this kind, there will be a
natural sympathy across the House. I expect she will be
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) successful.
(LD): The closure of rural bank branches is a massive
issue in my constituency, and we now have only one Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Near
bank branch in the vast county of Sutherland. I have the start of the general election campaign, the
met some of the UK’s clearing banks, which have said Government made a statement that appeared to accept
they will consider developing banking hubs, and working the recommendation in the Defence Committee’s report
together to provide one-stop shops. In order to do so, of 22 July about a qualified statute of limitation for
however, they would like to work with the Government. Northern Ireland veteran service personnel. When will
May I make a plea to the Leader of the House: will he there be a Government response to that report, as the
ensure that I can meet the appropriate Ministers, to see conventional two months for such a response have long
how we can sort out this desperate situation? since elapsed?
1161 Business of the House 16 JANUARY 2020 Business of the House 1162

Mr Rees-Mogg: Things change at a Dissolution, and Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will my right
the responses are done on a different basis. There is hon. Friend make time available for a debate on the
consultation between the new Committee and the roads infrastructure of east Kent? It is welcome news
Government on its outstanding reports. Having thanked that the Operation Brock contraflow on the M20 is
my right hon. Friend for his fantastic work as Chair of being dismantled, as we are getting Brexit done. However,
the Defence Committee, the Ministry of Defence is the dualling of the A2 needs to be completed and the
working on its responses. It cannot respond until there Whitfield roundabout is so overloaded that villagers are
is a Committee to respond to, and the motion to select up in arms. The lorries travelling through our port are
the Committee Chairs is set down on today’s Order the beating heart of our national economy, yet the lorry
Paper. parks that were promised long ago have yet to be
delivered. Does he not agree that making time for such
Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): This year, 4 March a debate is a matter of concern not simply for the
marks the 50th anniversary of the successful Black people of east Kent, but for the beating economic heart
Arrow satellite carrier rocket launch, which was the first of the nation as a whole?
and only UK rocket to reach orbit. Companies like
Skyrora in my constituency are doing massive innovative Mr Rees-Mogg: May I congratulate my hon. Friend
work to develop new rocket technology. What plans do on her election? Her question shows that she is going to
the Government have to mark this 50th anniversary to be as tough a campaigner for Dover as the previous
further encourage new developments? Member of that distinguished constituency. The points
she raises are important and the fact that Brexit is being
Mr Rees-Mogg: The Government, or at least this part delivered on 31 January is a relevant consideration. I
of the Government, were unaware of this terrific anniversary would suggest that, as it is a specific constituency matter,
until this moment, but I am all in favour of marking it is worth applying for an Adjournment debate or a
anniversaries. I will pass it on to the relevant ministry Westminster Hall debate at this stage.
and see if we can have something exciting like Big Ben
bonging to celebrate it. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May
we have an early debate on the excellent plastic bag tax,
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Last August, on which raises huge amounts of money? We all thought
Indian Independence Day, and then again on 2 October that the money would flow into good environmental
last year, violent protests were held outside the Indian work in the community, but nobody seems to know
high commission by pro-Pakistani groups. Following what happens to it. As it is likely to double, it is a
the intervention of the Home Secretary and the Prime treasure trove for changing the environment locally.
Minister, policing was put in place to prevent those
groups getting anywhere near the Indian high commission. Mr Rees-Mogg: The plastic bag tax has led to a 90%
A week on Sunday, we have India Republic Day and the reduction in the use of plastic bags. The cause and effect
self-same groups are threatening violent demonstrations has been quite striking. The hon. Gentleman is right to
outside the Indian high commission. May we therefore raise the question of where the money goes and what
have a statement from the Home Secretary on what charities benefit. I am sure he can raise the issue in
action can be taken to ensure we not only safeguard the Treasury questions in due course.
Indian high commission, but all embassies and commissions
against violent demonstrators? Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): At
Digital, Culture, Media and Sport questions earlier this
Mr Rees-Mogg: I think this is primarily an operational morning we were pleased to see the Secretary of State
matter for the Metropolitan police. There is always a watching proceedings from the Gallery. However, I am
balance to be struck between allowing non-violent protest, sure that the Leader of the House will agree that it is
which is a legitimate activity in a democracy, and preventing not common at departmental questions for a Secretary
violence from taking place, but I will ensure that my of State to be in a position from which they can be seen
hon. Friend’s question is passed on to the Home Secretary but not heard. Although the Select Committee will be
so that she is aware of his concern. able to question the Secretary of State, I wonder whether
the office of the Leader of the House has given any
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): previous consideration to what to do in such a situation.
From next week, the number 22 bus service will no For example, might we from time to time have a special
longer travel through Willaston, which is a rural community session in Westminster Hall, during which Members
with a lot of elderly residents who will be more isolated could question Secretaries of State who sit in the House
as a result. It seems that every couple of months we of Lords? Will he allow time for a debate to see whether
have to go into battle with bus companies who change this House could support such an innovation?
their routes or stop them altogether at a moment’s
notice without any thought for the impact on my Mr Rees-Mogg: The Procedure Committee produced
constituents. May we have a statement from a Transport a report on this matter a few years ago. It is perfectly
Minister about when we can take back control of our normal to have departmental Ministers in the House of
buses? Lords—it is something that both Houses have coped
with over many centuries. With regard to reforming our
Mr Rees-Mogg: I think the Government have proposed procedures, it is for the Procedure Committee to look
an extra £220 million for bus services, so there will be a into that again, but there are many means by which
significant financial commitment. I suggest that the Ministers and the Government can be held to account.
hon. Gentleman raises this issue at Transport questions [Interruption.] Yes, absolutely in this House. As my
on 30 January. hon. Friend said, the Secretary of State will appear
1163 Business of the House 16 JANUARY 2020 1164

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Point of Order

before his Select Committee, which will be one way of 11.15 am
doing it, and a full Bench of Ministers were here to
respond to oral questions earlier. Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham)
(Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last Friday a
Several hon. Members rose— constituent of mine was convicted of harassment of me
at Lincoln magistrates court, following a number of
Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but that is the end of episodes of correspondence by email and social media,
business questions. Names have been taken for next some of which were frightening or threatening. I am
time. [Interruption.] Yes, they were. I do not need enormously grateful to Lincolnshire police, and particularly
further comments. to the special branch officer—I will not name them—who
has been a great support to me.
Following this man’s conviction, the court put in
place a restraining order to prevent him having any
further contact with me, directly or indirectly or via a
third party. However, when the order was drafted, the
court said that it had to have a way for him to continue
to contact me, which has been put in place through
Royal Mail to the House of Commons. That was only
on Friday, and he has already contacted me through
that mechanism to my association and called me a liar
on social media.
I appreciate that you have long been concerned with
the safety of Members of Parliament, which is why I am
asking for your advice now. Given that there is no legal
requirement for Members to respond to constituents’
correspondence, other than our own public service and
common decency, I am not sure why the court felt that
it was unable completely to restrict this man’s ability to
correspond with me. Given that the number of people
convicted in this way is thankfully very small, I wonder
whether you could consider making available an alternative
point of contact in the House for those convicted of
harassing their MP, so that they can request assistance
with those matters that only an MP can deal with, such
as a referral to the Parliamentary and Health Service
Ombudsman, so that Members subject to such harassment
do not need to have further contact with those who have
harassed them.

Mr Speaker: I will not be taking further points of

order, but I took this one because it is exceptional and
relates to a security matter. What I will say is that
Members should not have to put up with intimidation
or bullying. The fact that the hon. Lady has had to go
through the courts shows just how bad and how serious
the issue is. Members have the right not to have to see or
respond to someone who has been bullying or intimidating
them. I think these are very exceptional circumstances. I
do not want other Members to suffer in the same way,
but there are legal implications, so I will take the matter
away and get back to the hon. Lady. However, nobody
in this Chamber should have to suffer harassment or
threats of violence, so there is a wider significance. The
hon. Lady has asked me a question, and I ask her please
to give me time and I will get back to her. It is very
important, and I am fully supportive of all Members,
but I want to make sure that we get this right. I
obviously cannot comment on the court’s decision at
this stage.
1165 16 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 1166

Northern Ireland Executive Formation Union. It solves outstanding cases which have been
causing real concern to families, so that all the people of
Northern Ireland are treated in the same way when
11.18 am bringing family members to this country.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian Yesterday the Government announced that we would
Smith): Prior to Christmas, the UK Government initiated provide the restored Executive with a £2 billion financial
a period of political talks to get Stormont up and package that would deliver for the people of Northern
running again. Following nine months of negotiations, Ireland and support the deal. That financial commitment
and nearly four weeks of intensive discussions over the represents the biggest injection of new money in a
Christmas period, last week the Tánaiste and I tabled a Northern Ireland talks deal for well over a decade. It
draft text to all parties and made it available to the has already allowed the Executive, this morning, to
public. The document, entitled “New Decade, New pledge to deliver pay parity for nurses in Northern
Approach”, set out what we assessed to be a fair and Ireland, the first such intervention in a devolved area
balanced deal, based on all the discussions between and one that has now ended the nurses’ strike, and it
ourselves and the parties, and on what the parties told will continue to support the Executive’s delivery of the
us would represent the right deal for Northern Ireland. priorities for the people of Northern Ireland.
I am delighted to tell the House that all five of Provided over five years, the deal will include a guarantee
Northern Ireland’s main political parties accepted the of at least £1 billion of Barnett-based funding to turbo-
deal as a basis for re-entering devolved government. charge infrastructure investment, along with £1 billion
Ministers have been appointed, an Executive has been of new resources and capital spending. That will include
formed, and the Assembly is open for business. Devolution significant new funding of about £245 million to transform
is restored in Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister public services, including health, education and justice,
visited the Assembly and met the Executive on Monday and a rapid injection of £550 million to put the Executive’s
to mark the positive moment of restored devolved finances on a sustainable footing, including £200 million
government. I know that the whole House will join me over three years to help to resolve the nurses’ pay
in welcoming and celebrating the return of devolved dispute immediately and deliver pay parity.
government, and in congratulating party leaders on The UK Government will ring-fence £45 million of
their confident decision to make this happen. capital, and will provide resource funding to deliver a
I thank my team in the UK civil service, the Northern Northern Ireland graduate-entry medical school in Derry/
Ireland Office and No. 10 Downing Street for their Londonderry, subject to Executive approval. They will
months of work to make the deal happen. I also thank also provide £50 million over two years to support the
the Northern Ireland political parties, the Westminster roll-out of ultra low emission public transport. Moreover,
parties and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd). the agreement will provide £140 million to address
I want to put on record the debt that I owe my two Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances. That money
predecessors, my right hon. Friends the Members for will help to strengthen our Union, and will support the
Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) and for Old four key areas set out in “New Decade, New Approach”.
Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire). I also thank I hope that the whole House will join me in welcoming
my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead the announcement.
(Mrs May) for all the work that she put into this issue These funds will come with stringent conditions attached.
during her time as Prime Minister. Finally, on a personal In particular, through this agreement I will convene a
level, I thank Jonathan Stephens, the retiring permanent UK Government-Northern Ireland Executive joint board.
secretary of the Northern Ireland Office, Ross Easton This will provide a clear role for the UK Government in
and, above all, Lilah Howson-Smith. overseeing the implementation of this financial package.
The Good Friday agreement, which was signed more More broadly, it is right, as we have heard in recent
than 20 years ago, brought with it an unprecedented days, that the Executive should focus on ensuring that
period of peace, prosperity and growth for Northern public services and finances can be delivered more
Ireland. That progress, however, always was and always sustainably. Northern Ireland taxpayers deserve to know
will be underpinned by the institutions that it created. that their money is being used efficiently and effectively.
Now that those institutions have been restored to full The past few days have given us much cause for
working order, we can carry on with the important celebration, but this is not job done. Three years without
business of moving Northern Ireland forward and bringing an Executive was completely unacceptable, and it is
its people together. The institutions for north-south and now down to all of us to ensure that this never happens
east-west co-operation can work again as intended. again. We need an Executive that will go forward on the
The “New Decade, New Approach” deal sets out a basis of trust and mutual respect and, above all else,
range of commitments for the Executive, the UK focus on delivering for the people of Northern Ireland.
Government and the Irish Government. It commits a For my part, I will ensure that the UK Government
new Executive to addressing the immediate challenges fully implement their commitments under this deal, but
facing the health service, reforming the education and I will also be working with the Executive to ensure that
justice systems, growing the economy, promoting the letter and the spirit of this agreement are being
opportunity and tackling deprivation. The deal does delivered. I commend the statement to the House.
not seek to restore the Executive for its own sake, but
offers real reforms aimed at making it more sustainable 11.25 am
and transparent so that the institutions can begin to
rebuild trust and confidence with the public. The deal Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab): I thank the Secretary
also gives the Executive a seat at the table when we of State for giving me early sight of his statement. I also
discuss the Northern Ireland Protocol with the European want to thank him for the work that he has personally
1167 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 16 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 1168

[Tony Lloyd] reality is that the cost of providing pay parity and the
cost for equivalent awards for other professions in the
put in to ensure that we now have the restoration of Northern Ireland health and social care sector is likely
Stormont. His place in the history books will be assured to be £200 million on an annual basis, not as a one-off.
on that basis. I join him in acknowledging the role of The package must be properly funded if we are to
the many others that he has name-checked this morning, ensure that we can begin to see a narrowing of the
and on behalf of the Opposition I thank all those disparity in pay in healthcare between Northern Ireland
involved. We now have an opportunity to examine what and the rest of the United Kingdom.
the deal offers. Undoubtedly, the major gain is that we More generally, there is a real issue about the funding
now have a functioning Executive and Assembly once of the whole package. The moneys that the Government
again in Northern Ireland. That matters enormously to have made available so far will simply not be adequate
the people of Northern Ireland, the people of the for this ambitious document which, I repeat, is owned
United Kingdom and the whole of the island of Ireland. by the United Kingdom Government just as much as it
I should also place on record our acknowledgement of is by the Northern Ireland Executive. The First Minister
the important role played by the Tánaiste, Simon Coveney, and the Deputy First Minister have written a joint letter
the Irish Foreign Minister. to the Prime Minister making the point that the money
I shall turn now to the details of the Secretary of is not adequate. Finance Minister Conor Murphy also
State’s statement and more generally to the restoration told me that he is working things through to discover
of the Executive and the work he has in front of the real financial consequences of the document, and
him. Will he give us absolute clarity on the case of they will be significantly more than the moneys the
Emma De Souza and her husband Jake DeSouza, who Government have made available.
have campaigned hard for the right to be able to live This is a really important moment in the history of
together in this country of ours? She is an Irish citizen our two islands. The Secretary of State deserves enormous
living in Northern Ireland. I think that the words in the credit for the restoration of the Executive, but the
documents are clear, but it would be unremittingly good process cannot now be frustrated by a penny-pinching
news if the Secretary of State could clarify that that attitude from a Chancellor and a Prime Minister who
situation will be resolved. I think that that is what he will not accept the consequences. I say directly to the
said, but it would be helpful if he could place on record Secretary of State that he has to do better. He must go
the names of those two individuals and how this will back to other Ministers and say, “We now need to see
affect them. the resources made available.”
The document rightly makes reference to the Stormont
House agreement. The Secretary of State will know Julian Smith: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his
that, 21 years on from the Good Friday agreement, remarks and for his personal comments about me and
many of the victims and their families are still looking my team. To confirm the situation on the DeSouza case,
for justice and knowledge of what happened to their we are fully committed to the Belfast/Good Friday
loved ones, whether they were murdered by terrorists or agreement, and there should never be an incentive to
even, in some cases, by the forces of the Crown, because renounce British citizenship. That is why we have provided
that possibility does exist. The Stormont House agreement the same family reunification rights to all the people of
ensured that there would be a historical investigations Northern Ireland.
unit, and that was an important commitment, but will
the Secretary of State put it beyond doubt that he has As for the hon. Gentleman’s question about broader
confidence in the capacity of our police to investigate issues for victims and those seeking justice, I point him
this, and in the independence of our prosecution services to the Prime Minister’s comments. He and the Government
and our judiciary, to ensure that the Stormont House are clear that we cannot accept the unfair or vexatious
process can be completed in a way that will give satisfaction, pursuit of our veterans when there is no new evidence.
as far as we ever can do, to the families and victims of However, that must obviously be balanced against the
the tragedy that took place in Northern Ireland all need for truth for victims, and the Government will be
those years ago? addressing that in due course.
I shall now turn to the contentious issue of finance. I On the finances, at £2 billion, this is the best financial
applaud the Secretary of State and the Tánaiste for deal of any Northern Ireland talks settlement. The hon.
standing in front of Stormont with this document. As Gentleman referred to a letter from the two First Ministers.
the Secretary of State has told us this morning, the two I have seen the letter and the reply, which points out
of them tabled a draft text to all parties. There is no that this is an injection of money for this talks process:
doubt that the document is now owned by the Executive £1 billion of new money and a guaranteed £1 billion of
and the Assembly, but it is also owned by the UK Barnett-based funding up front. We then have the UK
Government, and the Secretary of State and this Budget in March, and we have a deal for Brexit. The key
Government—the Prime Minister and the Chancellor task for the Executive is to focus on their priorities. The
in particular—must accept the important but challenging hon. Gentleman referred to the programme for Government
programme of work within it. The Prime Minister, who in appendix 2, which clearly states that the
rightly went to Belfast to celebrate the return of the “parties agree to publish, within two weeks of the restoration of
Executive, is party to the ambitions of the document, the institutions, the fuller details of an agreed Programme for
but he is also party to the need to make proper finances Government.”
available. This Government stand ready to work with the Executive
My first question for the Secretary of State relates to over the coming months and years, and we really want
the hopefully soon-to-be-concluded nurses’ pay parity to support them. This £2 billion is an extremely good
dispute. While he said that £200 million will be made start, and I am confident it is the basis for a strong
available—a lot of money in a health context—the future for Northern Ireland.
1169 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 16 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 1170

Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): I congratulate more fully to the House what this new deal will involve,
my right hon. Friend on his achievement in ensuring and to identify some of the specific measures that are
that the Executive can be reformed. It has been tantalisingly planned?
close on a number of occasions over the past couple of
years, but he has brought it to fruition. Julian Smith: Going back to the financial package,
I also commend the Northern Ireland parties for there will be £2 billion up front and then, obviously, the
coming together in the interest of the people of Northern usual Budget arrangements in March. It is not for me to
Ireland, and I welcome the representatives from the comment on those Budget arrangements—I think I
Social Democratic and Labour party and the Alliance would get into huge trouble with the Treasury if I did
party to the House, alongside the representatives from —but all of us in this House and across Government
the Democratic Unionist party. realise that, when the Executive come forward with
their programme for government and as they work
I congratulate my right hon. Friends the Members through the coming months, we need to stand ready to
for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) and for assist them.
Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) on their
commendable work over the years. The Executive need to take a different approach from
the one they have historically taken. They need to
The Government are committed to having no hard reform. We are setting up a board, and we are looking
border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of at how to encourage greater productivity. I was slightly
Ireland, and the annex to this plan says that the UK disappointed to hear this week that water rates have
Government will been ruled out. The Executive need to look at their own
“legislate to guarantee unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s revenue-raising measures, as well as coming to the UK
businesses to the whole of the UK internal market”. Exchequer for cash.
It does so on the assumption that that unfettered access
is as unfettered as it is today. What are the implications Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I
of these commitments for the future trade deal between join others in paying tribute to my right hon. Friend the
the UK and the European Union? Secretary of State and the Tánaiste, Simon Coveney, for
the work they have done. I know too well the hours and
Julian Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for her hours that have been put in to get to this point, and my
remarks and comments. This deal, above all, guarantees right hon. Friend deserves great credit for being able to
the Executive a seat at the table as we implement our stand here today to deliver this statement. The new deal
Brexit deal. It also underscores our commitment to includes the setting up of an office for identity and
ensuring, in law, unfettered access for goods from NI to cultural protection. I would be interested to hear from
GB, and it reconfirms that all the arrangements for him how he sees that office being used to bring the
Northern Ireland in our Brexit deal are subject to the community together, rather than driving a wedge between.
consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Julian Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for that
and I again pay tribute to her work; there were many,
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): I thank many references to specific meetings and engagements,
the Secretary of State for his statement. The SNP and to a specific bottle of wine, when she hosted party
warmly welcomes the re-establishment of devolved leaders, and she made a big difference to the overall
government in Northern Ireland. I am sure we all process. I thank her for her efforts.
recognise the importance of the restoration of devolved
government to Stormont and, in particular, the positive On the office of diversity, these now are devolved
impact that could have on the everyday lives of people matters, but I absolutely concur with the direction of
all over Northern Ireland. my right hon. Friend’s question: let us not make this
deal add to the division. Everything needs to focus on
The people of Northern Ireland have been left without bringing the community in Northern Ireland together.
local government for three years amid Brexit and amid
a crisis in their public services. There is no doubt that Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP):
this absence of government has had a profound impact May I add our voice of appreciation to the Secretary of
on their daily lives. All the work that the parties have State and his team for their efforts to help the political
put into enabling the restoration of devolved government parties in Northern Ireland to secure agreement, to the
must be applauded, and their efforts must be warmly former Secretaries of State, the right hon. Members for
welcomed, as the Secretary of State said. There is no Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) and for Old
doubt that the new Government have a huge task ahead Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), for the work
of them, but the spirit in which the agreement was they have done, and to our former Prime Minister, the
reached provides them with great opportunities. right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), for her
I heard what the Secretary of State says about funding. efforts and for the particular attention she paid to
Last night the Government committed to an additional Northern Ireland during her term of office? We welcome
£1 billion in support of this agreement. To be clear, we the deal as being fair and balanced. Of course, as for all
believe that that is a necessary and welcome investment, parties, elements of the deal will be difficult and challenging
but can the Secretary of State confirm today that those for us going forward.
moneys will be subject to the Barnett formula? We welcome the measures for veterans in Northern
In the agreement and in the Secretary of State’s Ireland, the appointment of a new Northern Ireland
statement, the UK Government commit to a new deal veterans commissioner and the full implementation of
for Northern Ireland in the context of it being dragged the armed forces covenant in Northern Ireland. These
out of the EU against its will. Is he able today to detail are welcome developments for the men and women who
1171 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 16 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 1172

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson] who were passionately committed to Northern Ireland,

and of course we miss Nigel Dodds and Emma Little
served our country. We also welcome the establishment Pengelly, who were held in high regard right across the
of an Ulster British commissioner to promote the culture, House?
heritage, arts, literature and so on of the Ulster British I congratulate the Secretary of State and the Tánaiste
people of Northern Ireland. We believe that that is an on their efforts in securing the agreement, along with
important step forward in promoting and supporting the ministerial and civil service team who helped to
the identity of all of us who regard ourselves as Unionists deliver it, but may I press him on the finances? The new
and having our place in the United Kingdom. On the Finance Minister said yesterday that the settlement that
commitments made on Brexit, I echo the question the Secretary of State imposed on the Executive was an
asked by the former Prime Minister. The current Prime act of “bad faith” and that he cannot and will not
Minister has talked about Northern Ireland having full accept that. How does the Secretary of State intend to
access to new trade deals, so it will be interesting to see mend the gap between the expectations of devolved
how that works out in practice. Ministers and the pay and financial settlement that he
The funding issue has already been raised by the has imposed on the new Executive?
Opposition Front Bencher. We are concerned that, if
this deal is to work and devolution is to be effective in Julian Smith: First, I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman
Northern Ireland, the resources need to be there in for his work on the same-sex marriage regulations that
order to ensure sustainability. Can the Secretary of came into force on 13 January, giving same-sex women
State assure us that the remaining balance of the confidence and men in Northern Ireland the opportunity to marry
and supply agreement moneys previously committed by by Valentine’s day this year.
the Government will be included and will come to the On the concern about the level of finances, we all
Northern Ireland Executive in full? represent our own constituencies, and Northern Ireland
Julian Smith: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on has around 20% more funding than any other part of
his victory in the Democratic Unionist party leadership the UK. I have outlined the package and confirmed that
election and I look forward to working with him. I echo there will be a UK Budget by my right hon. Friend the
his comments on the commitment of this deal to veterans Chancellor. I look forward to working with the Finance
and to the armed forces covenant, things that he and his Minister, as does the Treasury, as he develops well-costed
party have campaigned so long for. I also pay tribute to plans based on good value for money for UK taxpayers.
Nigel Dodds and Emma Little Pengelly, who have left
following the election, for their work. On the issue of James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): I
funding, I can confirm that the confidence and supply warmly welcome the restoration of the Executive and
funding will be dealt with in the estimates process in the devolved government in Northern Ireland, in the best
usual way. interests of the people of Northern Ireland. I join
others in commending my right hon. Friend and his
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I heartily team and, indeed, the work of the Tánaiste, Simon
congratulate my right hon. Friend on his tenacity and Coveney. We know just how challenging this has been,
skill in getting us to this point, and getting the institutions but it is a very positive development to see all five
up and running. He touched on the issue of health. parties now within the Executive.
Sadly, health outcomes in Northern Ireland are now
shockingly bad. In December 2018, all five trusts in May I touch on the issue of sustainability? Now that
Northern Ireland failed to meet their targets and recently the Executive have been re-established, it is important
we have been getting reports that people in real pain are that they remain there—that they continue to serve the
having to wait three years to see a specialist. A clear people of Northern Ireland and that we have that local
signal of where to go was given by Professor Bengoa’s decision making. Will my right hon. Friend comment
report right in 2016. It is not just a question of saving on the steps that are being taken and will be taken to
money; clinical efficiencies are to be gained from the ensure that the devolved Government in Northern Ireland
proposals in that report. Can the Secretary of State remain, and remain serving its people?
guarantee that, in putting this very generous injection
of money into Northern Ireland, money will be directed Julian Smith: I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for
to programmes such as Bengoa, which will deliver much the work that he personally did on the talks process
more efficient outcomes? before he had a spell of very bad illness, for his continued
commitment to Northern Ireland and for his assistance,
Julian Smith: My right hon. Friend is correct that the advice and counsel to me since I took on this job.
Bengoa report, which is in the process of being
On sustainability, my right hon. Friend is absolutely
implemented, is key to the transformation of health
right. In the chapter on sustainability that was developed,
services in Northern Ireland. By the way, as part of the
as were all parts of the party-led agreement, by working
financial deal, £245 million is dedicated to the
groups earlier last year, there are many initiatives on
transformation of public services. We have outlined in
supporting and funding Opposition parties and on
the deal that, as well as the project board, we are
looking at how things would work should the First
looking for reform initiatives in health. Robin Swann,
Minister and the Deputy First Minister resign.
the new Health Minister in Northern Ireland, has got
off to an extremely good start in sorting out the nurses’
pay dispute. Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP): I thank the Secretary
of State, the Tánaiste and all their officials for the
Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab): May I enormous effort that was put in to make sure that the
acknowledge that on the Opposition Benches today we institutions of the Good Friday agreement were restored.
miss the voices of David Hanson and Vernon Coaker, In particular, I welcome the commitment to the Graduate
1173 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 16 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 1174

Entry Medical School at Magee in my constituency of people of Northern Ireland for change and reform in
Foyle. As the Secretary of State will know, and as has many areas that have lain stagnant for the last three
already been said, there are lots of commitments in the years. How confident is he that there is the resilience
deal, and there is a gap between the commitments and among the official corps to deliver in a speedy way the
the financial package offered. One of the commitments changes for which the people of Northern Ireland have
in the deal is to extend and expand the Magee university been waiting far too long?
campus to 10,000 students. We have been waiting since
1965 to see that achieved. Will the Secretary of State
Julian Smith: My hon. Friend is right about the need
continue to work with the Irish Government and our
for reform and change. I pay tribute to David Sterling
newly established Executive to finally, once and for all,
and his team at the Northern Ireland civil service who
see a full-sized university in Derry?
for three years have had to step in in the absence of
political decision making from the devolved Assembly
Julian Smith: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is and Executive. I also remind all those supporting the
pleased with the work for which he campaigned so new Executive that, as well as funds, we must focus on
hard. The £45 million ring-fenced capital for Derry reform, change and transformation.
medical school is a great news story for Derry. Clearly,
there is a decision for the Executive to make on whether
to fund more student places or take action in other Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Secretary
areas, but I stand ready to support the Derry medical of State for his commitment, dedication and strength of
school in any way I can. character in getting the deal over the line. On nurses, the
On the commitment to the financial package more extra £109 million to maintain an equal pay standard
generally, as I have said before, we stand ready to for this year and next year is welcome, but will he
support the Executive as they develop their priorities. outline the steps he has taken to enhance the block
grant, which will enable our staff to provide bursaries to
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): It is keep training, increase the numbers of frontline, highly
welcome that the military covenant will be in full force trained staff and reduce and keep waiting lists at an
in Northern Ireland—something that we struggled to acceptable level?
do when I was a Minister of State. Will the Secretary of
State come out a little more forcefully and let us know Julian Smith: As I said earlier, about £245 million is
exactly what will happen with our veterans—the people, going into the transformation of public services and
like me, who had no choice whether they served on £550 million into resource support, of which £200 million
Operation Banner—and how we will protect them from will resolve the nurses’ pay dispute. It is up to the
vexatious claims against them, which are destroying Executive and the Assembly to work out how they want
their lives? to spend that money and to address any other opportunities
that they may find coming from the Budget in March.
Julian Smith: First, I pay tribute to the UK service
women and men who took part in Operation Banner for
the work they did, the dedication they showed, and the Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): I warmly
commitment—them and their families. Yesterday, the congratulate my right hon. Friend on his personal
Prime Minister was absolutely clear that we cannot achievement, which involved reserves of patience, diplomacy
accept the unfair or vexatious pursuit of our veterans tenacity, and, I dare say, menace—qualities that, clearly,
when there is no new evidence. We will bring forward the Conservative Whips Office in the previous Parliament
legislation, but that will be this Government’s focus as was the ideal breeding ground for. One of the frustrations
we develop legislation for this agreement and for the of the past few years is that the absence of an economy
armed forces more generally. Minister in Northern Ireland meant that the development
of the industrial strategy did not have that Executive
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): I, too, welcome leadership. Opposition Members there contributed
the re-establishment of the Executive and the decision magnificently in certain particular cases, but will he
to ring-fence £45 million for the medical school in emphasise to the new economy Minister that Northern
Derry. However, given the failure of Ulster University Ireland should take advantage of the big opportunities
to deliver successive promises over the decades, surely that are available to the whole of the UK, particularly
an independent university would be a better vehicle. the opportunities that exist for the manufacturing and
industrial traditions of Northern Ireland?
Julian Smith: The hon. Gentleman is right to question
some of Ulster University’s ongoing projects, but on the Julian Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for his
other hand, Northern Ireland universities are among compliment. I was Chief Whip, but cannot remember
the best in the country. We need to support Ulster people making those types of kind remarks. I would
University and ensure that we deliver the project of also like to point to the work that he did as Business
getting the medical school up and running. That will be Minister on Bombardier and other issues in Northern
in the best interests of people in the north-west and Ireland and on making sure that those businesses were
more generally. retained. On the role of the economy Minister, I was
very heartened when I met the Prime Minister and the
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): May I add my Executive. Nichola Mallon from the SDLP has taken
congratulations to my right hon. Friend and all those over that important brief. I can think of no better
on both sides of the Irish sea, who have worked so hard person to move that issue forward. She talked about
to get us to this joyful place? My right hon. Friend turbo-charging the Northern Ireland economy, which
knows that there is a huge pent-up demand among the matches very well with the priorities of this Government.
1175 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 16 JANUARY 2020 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 1176

Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): I join in Julian Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for that question
praising the Secretary of State and the Tánaiste and and pay tribute to his service for our country during his
their teams for this deal and also stress my understanding period in the armed forces. Let me say again that there
of the importance of linking any new cash for Northern is nothing in the agreement that takes away what the
Ireland with reform and transformation. May I ask him Prime Minister said yesterday; we cannot accept the
about the petition of concern and share the view that unfair or vexatious pursuit of our veterans when there
many people are sceptical and feel that the reforms do is no new evidence.
not go far enough, but are, none the less, prepared to
give it a go. Will he give us a reassurance that, if things Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I,
do not work out correctly, the Government will look at too, welcome the statement. I acknowledge what the
this again? Will he also recognise that, as society in Secretary of State has said—that this is a good start in
Northern Ireland transforms, more and more people no financial terms. But given that he has said it is a good
longer identify as either unionist or nationalist, and start, it means that we are not finished yet, so perhaps
that that must be recognised in the institutions? he could elaborate a little bit on that. I recognise and
welcome the fact that he is now talking in corporate
Julian Smith: The hon. Gentleman is right. His party terms, mentioning all the parties, rather than the singular
led the way during the talks process on analysing and approach he used before Christmas, when he singled
reforming the petition of concern. There have been very out my party for some criticism. On the issue of singularity,
positive reforms of the petition of concern, but, as a will he join me in welcoming the fact that the leader of
UK Government, we have said that we will review it Sinn Féin, Michelle O’Neill, said 10 days ago that the
every six months and that, at the end of this Assembly “negative attitude and disrespect…is consigned to the past”.
term, we will stand by to take action and intervene if it We all recognise that. Hopefully Sinn Féin will do the
is being abused. same and will not misuse the case of the Irish language
and be confronted about it, as I and others have had to
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): By way do in the past.
of analogy, if parties do not turn up to this House, or if
people resign, or if there is disagreement, we do not
Julian Smith: I think the hon. Gentleman knows that
collapse Parliament. Will the Secretary of State look at
I am a friend of the DUP, as I work with all parties in
how changes might be introduced in Northern Ireland,
Northern Ireland. I welcome Michelle O’Neill’s comments.
working with the local parties, to ensure that, regardless
We need to ensure that this is a new chapter in how we
of what disagreements there may be, we do not see the
deal with each other when it comes to respect for each
institutions collapse again?
other’s backgrounds and priorities. The atmosphere in
that Executive meeting with our Prime Minister was
Julian Smith: There are a series of commitments in extremely positive, with five political parties from all
this deal, which have been agreed to by the parties, that parts of the political spectrum working together in the
will require certain bits of legislation in the Assembly. best interests of Northern Ireland.
In my view, they will ensure that we never again have to
see—as we have had to in the past three years—the loss
of the Assembly and the Executive. Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): I thank my right
hon. Friend and all involved in finally reaching this
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): most important agreement. As someone who spent
May I add my voice to the collective delight at this quite a lot of her teenage years waiting for hospital
announcement, and to highlight my delight at reading appointments in Derry/Londonderry, I particularly warmly
the words about educating children and young people welcome the announcement of a new medical school.
of different backgrounds together in the same classroom? We opened a new medical school in Chelmsford a
I ask the Secretary of State to commend the work of the couple of years ago, and it has had a massive impact on
Integrated Education Fund and the Northern Ireland our city. I am sure that anyone from Derry/Londonderry
Council for integrated education, and to seek assurance who wants to come and see it would be hugely welcome
that the moneys in the transforming education programme there.
could be used to further this purpose. I often get asked this question by my constituents, so
would my right hon. Friend confirm for the record that
Julian Smith: I pay tribute to those organisations, the funding available for Northern Ireland is available
and can reconfirm that there is a focus on education to all parts of the community?
reform in the agreement. I would expect the Executive
to be looking very closely at how education is being Julian Smith: I thank my hon. Friend for her text
operated. It is a very high-performing sector of education messages, WhatsApp messages and all her support during
in the UK, but there is a lot of transformation to be this period. I can reconfirm that the funding package
done. that the UK Government are providing will be provided
to the Executive, and should be distributed across
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): Can communities in Northern Ireland.
the Secretary of State assure the House that the frequently
stated commitment of the Government to end the witch Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP):
hunt of our ex-service people—the “vexatious”prosecutions Coming from good Ulster stock myself, I am delighted
that he and the Minister for Defence People and Veterans, to congratulate the Secretary of State, along with his
my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor counterpart in Ireland, Simon Coveney, for the work
View (Johnny Mercer) have referred to—will not be that they and all Members, both here and in Northern
sacrificed on the altar of Stormont political expediency? Ireland, have done to bring about the Assembly resitting.
1177 Northern Ireland Executive Formation 16 JANUARY 2020 1178

An essential element of the Good Friday agreement, Points of Order

which is the foundation of that Assembly, is the notion—
whether Members in this House agree with it or not—of 12.4 pm
a referendum on the unity of the Irish nation. Now, I
am sure that would also mean that the Secretary of Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North)
State agrees with me that the Union is consensual. (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have
been contacted by a number of constituents who have
Julian Smith: I think the Prime Minister was very raised the issue of the places that the Government
clear about his views on those issues yesterday. I have no have announced will benefit from additional funding as
further comments to make. part of their towns fund announcement. Oddly, the list
seems to include places that are not towns but cities,
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Mr Speaker such as Lincoln and Wolverhampton. I think it is in the
said that this statement should only go on until 12 o’clock; Government’s interests to allay any fears there might be
we have now gone past that. A substantial number of about pork-barrel politics that a statement is made to
people wish to speak in the debate this afternoon, so I the House about the criteria used for allocating funds
am afraid that we are going to move on. through the towns fund because cities such as my own
city of Hull have not been allowed to apply for the
funding, yet other cities seem to have got in there
anyway.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the

hon. Lady for her point of order, but she knows that it
is not a matter for the Chair. I have been given no
notification that a statement will be made, but I am
absolutely certain that the Whips will feed back the
point that she has made.

Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): On a

point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Earlier today, three
occupants of the Treasury Bench referred to the presence
of a Secretary of State in the Gallery, contrary to
Standing Orders. I do not blame them for doing so: the
previous Speaker made an art form of it. Indeed, you
may recall the nadir when three ageing members of the
Osmond family—minor members—took a bow having
received his approbation. It is within the gift of the
House to change its Standing Orders if it wishes, but for
the moment are we to abide by Standing Orders or are
we not? Or can we simply choose which Standing Orders
apply?

Mr Deputy Speaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman

for his point of order. I remember the Osmonds being
up in the Gallery, and I was thrilled to see them. But the
Standing Orders are the Standing Orders. They are
there for a reason, and it is good to remind everybody in
the House that the norm is that Members do not refer
to people in the Gallery. He is also right that if the
House wishes to change its Standing Orders, it is within
its rights to do so.

BILL PRESENTED

AGRICULTURE BILL
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Villiers, supported by the Prime Minister,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Barclay,
Secretary Truss, Secretary Simon Hart, Secretary Julian
Smith, George Eustice and Rishi Sunak, presented a
Bill to authorise expenditure for certain agricultural
and other purposes; to make provision about direct
payments following the United Kingdom’s departure
from the European Union and about payments in response
to exceptional market conditions affecting agricultural
markets; to confer power to modify retained direct EU
legislation relating to a storage aid; to make provision
1179 Points of Order 16 JANUARY 2020 1180

about reports on food security; to make provision about Debate on the Address
the acquisition and use of information connected with
[5TH DAY]
food supply chains; to confer powers to make regulations
about the imposition of obligations on business purchasers Debate resumed (Order, 15 January).
of agricultural products, marketing standards, organic Question again proposed,
products and the classification of carcasses; to make That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as
provision for the recognition of associations of agricultural follows:
producers which may benefit from certain exemptions Most Gracious Sovereign,
from competition law; to make provision about fertilisers; We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the
to make provision about the identification and traceability Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
of animals; to make provision about red meat levy in Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our
Great Britain; to make provision about agricultural humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which
tenancies; to confer power to make regulations about Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
securing compliance with the WTO Agreement on
Agriculture; and for connected purposes.
Health and Social Care
Bill read the First time: to be read a Second time on
Monday 20 January, and to be printed (Bill 7) with
explanatory notes (Bill 7-EN). Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I wish to
inform the House that I have selected the amendment
in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.

12.6 pm
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): I
beg to move an amendment, at the end of the Question
to add:
“but respectfully regrets that the Gracious Speech fails to ensure
that the National Health Service and social care will be properly
funded; and calls for the Government to bring forward a plan
and additional funding to end the crisis in social care and provide
for at least a 4 per cent per year real terms increase in health
spending.”.
Before I move on to the substance of my remarks,
may I congratulate you, Mr Deputy Speaker? It is a
pleasure to see you back in your place overseeing these
proceedings. I will endeavour to be as brief as I can in
my remarks, because I am aware that many Members
hope to catch your eye to offer their maiden contributions.
I am sure that every one of them will do their constituencies
proud.
At the outset, I also wish to thank our hard-working
NHS and social care staff who every day go beyond the
call of duty and go the extra mile, especially over the
Christmas period. We are forever in their debt. Our
amendment, which we will put to the vote today, is
essentially about backing up those hard-working NHS
and social care staff, and sending a message to the
Government that they should be given the resources
that they need.
This is a motion about the 4.5 million people on
waiting lists. This is a motion about the pregnant
woman who waited so long for her glaucoma operation
at a hospital in Southampton that she nearly lost her
sight and has never seen the face of her child. This is a
motion about the 34,000 people who wait more than
two months for cancer treatment. This is a motion about
those constituents, such as mine in Leicester, who had
their bladder cancer operations cancelled twice. This is a
motion about the 79,000 cancelled operations last year,
and the 18,000 children’s cancelled operations. This is a
motion about the 110,000 children denied mental health
care, even though they are in the most desperate of
circumstances. This is a motion about the 98,000 patients
who waited on trolleys last month—a 65% increase on
the previous year—many of them elderly, many of them
in their 80s and 90s, languishing for hours and hours on
trolleys in hospital corridors.
1181 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1182

This is a motion about those hospitals that have been said that he had a plan that he would bring forward
pushed to rack and ruin after years of cuts to capital in the next 12 months. The Government want a consensus.
budgets, including Hillingdon hospital in the Prime I say to the Government that the Labour party has
Minister’s own backyard, where children’s wards had to proposed free personal care. We have a version of free
be closed because of subsidence. This is a motion about personal care in Scotland. There is a similar version of it
the Royal Cornwall hospital that is discharging patients in Northern Ireland. There is a version of it in Wales.
early because it is so overwhelmed. This is a motion The House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee,
about the 1.5 million people, many of them with dementia, which includes Thatcherites such as Michael Forsyth
denied the social care support they need after years and and Norman Lamont, alongside the former Labour
years of swingeing cuts. Chancellor, Alistair Darling, has proposed free personal
social care. There already is a political consensus. It is
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Will the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister who stand
the hon. Gentleman give way? outside that consensus. If the Secretary of State wants
to engage with us on that basis, then my hon. Friend the
Jonathan Ashworth: Let me make a little bit of Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley)
progress. I think Members on both sides would agree is happy to do so. I will now take the intervention from
that I am usually generous in taking interventions, but the former Chief Whip.
I am aware that many colleagues want to make their
maiden speeches today. I will take some interventions, Mr Harper: Given that the hon. Gentleman’s party is
but let me make a little bit of progress. I hope the right undergoing a leadership election and that will clearly
hon. Gentleman will give me a bit of leeway. mean—[Interruption.] No, I am trying to say this
This motion is about giving the NHS the funding helpfully. If the Secretary of State has made a
it needs. It is a motion that will test every newly commitment to start the process of cross-party talks
elected Conservative Member of Parliament on their within the next 100 days, that will obviously be before
commitment to the NHS. that leadership election is concluded. So my serious
The Government are correct to signal in the Queen’s point is that if we wish to engage on a cross-party basis
Speech, as they did indeed in the pre-election Queen’s on whether to implement the Dilnot proposals, as my
Speech, that health and social care should be the right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir
priority. On that, at least, they have my agreement. Desmond Swayne) mentioned, or on the basis that the
Yesterday the Prime Minister promised to hon. Gentleman just said, is he in a position to start
“get those waiting lists down.”—[Official Report, 15 January that engagement with the support of his current party
2020; Vol. 669, c. 1015.] leader so that we can make progress urgently? The
So the test that must be applied to the NHS and social social care problems in the country are not going to
care announcements in the Gracious Address is wait, frankly, for another Leader of the Opposition to
whether they add up to a strategy to drive waiting lists be elected. That is meant as a really serious and
down and A&E performance up. The answer on that cross-party point.
front is surely no. We have promises of 40 new
hospitals, 50,000 new extra nurses, and 50 million more Jonathan Ashworth: It is a serious point, and I am
GP appointments, with 6,000 extra GPs. On each and grateful for the way in which the right hon. Gentleman
every one of these commitments, we will keep track of has put it. Of course, we are very happy to engage. My
progress and test Ministers on whether they deliver. hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South,
who sits in the shadow Cabinet and leads on social
But we will also test Ministers on social— care, is happy to sit down with Ministers at any point.
Sir Desmond Swayne rose— I am suggesting to the Secretary of State, rather
gently, that there is a degree of political consensus on
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) rose— free adult personal social care. The House of Lords
Committee, which includes Michael Forsyth and
Jonathan Ashworth: I give way first to the right hon. Norman Lamont, not socialists red in tooth and claw
Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) by any means, alongside Alistair Darling, has proposed
and then I will make some progress because I know it. We, as a Front-Bench team, have proposed it. There
that many Members want to speak. are forms of it in some of the devolved nations. It is
the Secretary of State who is standing outside that
Sir Desmond Swayne: The hon. Gentleman will recall consensus. If he wants to engage with us on those
that the Government accepted the Dilnot proposals terms, and on the point about a cap as proposed by
and even put in place certain legislative provisions for Dilnot, then of course we are prepared to have those
them to be implemented in the next financial year. I levels of engagement.
never understood why, during the 2017 election There is also a degree of consensus around the need
campaign, they departed from that position—but what for better integration between health and social care,
is the Opposition’s position on Dilnot? and better co-ordination of health and social care.
That is why we are intrigued by the Secretary of State’s
Jonathan Ashworth: We have long argued for a cap proposal to consult on the NHS Funding Bill.
on care costs, but of course the Government, as the
right hon. Gentleman says, dropped their support for James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): Will the hon.
this policy. Gentleman give way?
On the issue of social care, the Prime Minister said at
the Dispatch Box yesterday that he wanted cross-party Jonathan Ashworth: For the last time, because a lot
talks, although in his BBC interview the day before he of Members want to speak.
1183 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1184

James Cartlidge: This is directly relevant. The hon. I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree,
Gentleman made a point about the House of Lords more broadly, that the delivery of safe care depends on
Committee, but he will be aware that the House of adequate staffing levels as well, so would he support
Commons Committee recommended a social insurance enshrining safe staffing levels in legislation? We are
system—perhaps along the lines of Germany’s, for example. short of 44,000 nurses in England. Community nurses
Is he, in principle, supportive of that solution? have been cut by 6,000 since 2010. Learning disability
nurses are being cut. Mental health nurses have been cut
Jonathan Ashworth: No, because we do not think it by 10%. Health visitor numbers are down. School nurses
would work—it is not feasible. It is not just the Committee have been cut. We have been warning for years about
in the Lords that says that—plenty of think-tanks have the detrimental impact on safe care of these staffing
said it is not feasible as well. shortages. That is why, for example, we fought the
Government on the abolition of the training bursary.
There is broad consensus about the principle of better We welcome the fact that Ministers are now bringing
integration between health and social care. We have back a partial version of the bursary in the form of a
long argued for it, and now the Government have come maintenance grant, but why not bring back the whole
round to arguing for it as well. The Government are bursary? Without bringing back the whole bursary,
proposing an NHS Bill along the lines of what Simon many are sceptical that the Secretary of State will
Stevens of NHS England has proposed. We long warned deliver on his commitment for 50,000 new nurses, because
that the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which was as quickly as—[Interruption.] Well, he is rather stretching
introduced by Andrew Lansley and supported by sitting the definition of the word “new”. He gave the impression
many of the Ministers on the Front Bench, would not in the general election campaign that there were going
lead to the levels of integration and co-ordination of to be 50,000 new nurses, but that soon unravelled,
care that was needed but to a fragmented mess. because when he went on the media it turned out that
We also long warned that the compulsory competitive he was including in his figures 19,000 nurses who already
tendering provisions of the Act would lead to more work in the national health service. I of course have
contracts being handed to the private sector. About some sympathy—
£9 billion-worth of contracts were handed to the private
sector, despite the Secretary of State telling us that Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham)
there would be no privatisation on his watch. If his Bill (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
gets rid of those compulsory competitive tendering
provisions—the so-called section 75 regulations—we Jonathan Ashworth: I am afraid that on this occasion
would welcome that, but we want competitive tendering I will not, because many Members want to make maiden
to be abolished completely. We do not want clinical speeches. There is nothing worse for a Member waiting
services privatised. We do not want clinical services to make a maiden speech than seeing the time ticking
outsourced, such as pathology labs in London, as is down because Front Benchers are taking lots of
happening on the Secretary of State’s watch. We do not interventions.
want tinkering in the Bill: we want the Health and
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care
Social Care Act binned so that we can restore a universal
(Matt Hancock): You know you’re talking rubbish.
public national health service. [Interruption.] The Secretary
of State says that it is universal. He is clearly not aware Jonathan Ashworth: I will tell you who was talking
of the rationing that is going on across the country rubbish, Mr Deputy Speaker: the Secretary of State
because of austerity and the privatisation of the NHS when he said at the general election that he was delivering
that is his policy. 50,000 extra nurses. That is why he avoided Piers Morgan
As I indicated in the debate on the Gracious Address during the election campaign. I do not know why the
before the election, we will work constructively with Secretary of State avoided Piers Morgan—he is a pussycat.
Ministers to ensure the speedy passage of the health I went on Piers Morgan’s show every week; why did the
service safety investigations Bill. We will look to strengthen Secretary of State not go on?
the independence of medical examiners. We call on the I will give way once more, and then if Members will
Government to do more to roll out medical examiners indulge me, I will not give way again, because a lot of
across NHS trusts. It is disappointing that so far only Members want to make their maiden speeches in the
about 50% of trusts have medical examiners. These are debate.
absolutely vital to improving patient safety, because we
know that things do go wrong in the delivery of care. Dr Caroline Johnson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman
We have all been shocked by the revelations at Shrewsbury for giving way. He is using a lot of statistics and figures,
and Telford Hospital NHS Trust. This is the worst ever and he talked about the definition of “more” and
maternity scandal, with clinical malpractice apparently “new”. I want to ask him about the 44,000 vacancies
allowed to continue unchecked since the ’70s. It is that he talked about. Is it not right that when the Health
absolutely horrific and astonishing. I cannot imagine Committee looked at that, it found that 38,000 of those
the grief that the families affected must have had to places were actually occupied by nurses who work on
endure. Will the Secretary of State update the House on the bank because they choose that working model?
what is happening at Shrewsbury and Telford? I appreciate
that there was an Adjournment debate on that matter Jonathan Ashworth: As the hon. Lady knows from
last night, but I think the House would appreciate his her work on the frontline in the NHS, the problem is
offering us some reflections on what is happening at that bank and agency staffing have contributed to many
Shrewsbury and Telford. Will he also commit to reinstating of the deficits that our trusts are dealing with. That is
the maternity training fund to help to improve maternity one of the problems with the way in which the workforce
safety in our hospitals? have been managed by the Government.
1185 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1186

The Secretary of State says that his figures include levels of poverty mean that health inequalities are widening.
19,000 existing nurses. I have some sympathy for him, It all adds up to more people presenting at A&E because
because we have been raising the issue of retention in of 10 years of Tory austerity.
the NHS for some time. That is why we were so vigorous What is the Tories’answer to the worst A&E performance
in opposing the public sector pay cap, of which he figures on record? It is to scrap the four-hour A&E
was a great champion for many years as a Tory Minister, target. Abolishing the target will not magic away the
and it is why we were pleased that the Government got problems in A&E. It will not suddenly fix a system that
rid of it, following pressure from those on the Labour saw 100,000 people waiting on trolleys last December.
Front Bench. It is a laudable aim to improve retention That is why the president of the Royal College of
in the NHS, but it is not the same as recruiting new Emergency Medicine said yesterday:
nurses. “Rather than focus on ways around the target, we need to get
The Secretary of State expects to recruit 12,500 nurses back to the business of delivering on it”.
internationally, while at the same time imposing a tax But Ministers cannot get back to the business of
on those nurses through the immigration health surcharge, delivering the target, because they will soon ask the
increasing it to more than £600 per family member per House to approve legislation that will legally bake in the
year of a nurse’s working visa. Does he really expect to underfunding of our NHS. The NHS underfunding Bill
recruit 12,500 nurses internationally while imposing effectively caps NHS spending way below the level that
this nurses’ tax on them? experts say our NHS will need. The last Labour
Government did not need legislation to signal their
The Secretary of State will also know that we are support of and commitment to the NHS. The last
desperately short of nurses in the field of mental health Labour Government got on and delivered record investment
services. We welcome the commitment to reform the in our NHS. They delivered a 6% increase in investment
Mental Health Act 1983, and we will work constructively into the NHS, and they delivered the lowest waiting lists
with him on that, but we have had enough warm words and the highest satisfaction ratings on record—and we
and rhetoric on mental health services. It is now time to did not need the gimmick of a Bill to do it. We got on
deliver the parity of esteem that patients deserve. We and delivered it.
have a shortage of mental health beds, which means
that too many people are sent hundreds of miles across The Secretary of State is proposing a Bill that fails to
the country to receive care, away from their family and reverse the £850 million of cuts to public health prevention
friends, often in poor-quality private providers. services. This is at a time of rising drug deaths, rising
presentations at A&E for alcohol abuse, rising STI
The Secretary of State likes to boast of hospital infections and rising obesity among children. He is
upgrades, but anyone who has been in a mental health asking us to approve a Bill that does not reverse the
trust, works in one or has visited one, as I have, knows raids on capital budgets or deal with the £6.5 billion
that the mental health estate is, frankly, some of the backlog of repairs facing our hospitals, which has left
worst estate in the NHS. It is unsafe. Mental health hospitals with sewage pipes bursting, ceilings falling in
patients deserve so much better, yet there is still no and lifts not working. He is proposing a Bill that does
credible plan in anything he has said to modernise and not give the NHS the 4% uplift annually that many
replace the 1,000 beds in old-style dormitory wards in experts say it needs. That is why Labour has tabled an
mental health trusts across the country. Children are amendment today to give the NHS a 4% uplift, and
being particularly let down, with increasing rationing of every Tory MP who believes in the NHS should support
mental health services and more than 130,000 referrals it. The Secretary of State is enshrining in law four
to specialist services turned down despite children showing more years of underfunding of our national health
signs of eating disorders, self-harm and abuse. Matters service and four more years of capped expenditure in
have become so desperate that there are even reports of our national health service, but it does not have to be
GPs advising children to exaggerate problems, because that way.
otherwise they will not get any help. This is the chaos of I congratulate the Government on securing election.
the underfunded system, and it leads to an increasing I congratulate the Secretary of State and all the Ministers
number of children and young people presenting at who have been reappointed to the Front Bench, and I
A&E in mental health crisis. A&E is no place for pay tribute to my former shadow Ministers who lost
someone in mental health crisis. This is a disgrace, and their seat, Paula Sherriff and Julie Cooper. We will hold
our mental health services now need investment. the Secretary of State to account. We will test him on
That brings me to A&E more generally. The Secretary whether he delivers 40 new hospitals, 50,000 new nurses
of State will say that there is increased demand on our and 6,000 new GPs. We will test him on whether he
A&E, and that is true. There is increased demand on drives waiting lists down, as the Prime Minister promised
our A&E because mental health services have been yesterday. Where the Secretary of State is right, we will
pushed to the brink; because years of cuts to social care work constructively with him. Where he is wrong, we
are pushing more and more people to A&E; because will argue our case forcefully.
public health prevention budgets have been hammered The Secretary of State was elected on a promise to fix
by years of cuts under this Conservative Government; the NHS. With 4.5 million people on the waiting lists,
because GP numbers in our communities have been cut 2.5 million people waiting beyond four hours in A&E
and people cannot get appointments; because walk-in and 34,000 people waiting beyond two months for
centres have closed under the Tories; and because cancer treatment, our constituents now expect him to
pharmacies were cut back. More broadly, it is because fix the NHS. He could start by giving the NHS the level
decisions by this Government—whether it is their decisions of investment it needs, which is a 4% uplift. He could
on housing and universal credit or their cuts to children’s start by voting for our amendment in the Division
services, with Sure Start centres closing—and rising Lobby tonight.
1187 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1188

12.28 pm big job to be done now in rebuilding rotas? That could

really have an impact on patient care in Winchester and
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care across England.
(Matt Hancock): This Queen’s Speech has health and
social care at its heart. For the first time in the history of Matt Hancock: It is good to see that the hon. Member
the NHS, we will enshrine in law our long-term funding for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury), having got the
settlement. Yesterday we brought forward the NHS commitment to a meeting, is off—he’s done! That was
Funding Bill, which makes a record financial commitment quick. My right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow
of £33.9 billion more each year—the largest cash injection (Robert Halfon) is still here, but that is because there is
since the NHS was founded. It will enable us to go so much more good news to come, and I am sure he
further and faster in delivering better health and social wants to hear it.
care in this country over the next decade. We are already The point about doctors’ pensions is very important.
delivering on this Queen’s Speech. We are already delivering We have already delivered on the commitment in the
on our manifesto, and this Queen’s Speech sets out how manifesto to start a process to end the problems caused
we will deliver on the rest of our manifesto. How many by the interaction of tax laws passed in the last Parliament
new hospitals will there be over the next decade? Forty! but one and the NHS pension scheme. My hon. Friend
That was even mentioned by the hon. Member for the Minister for Health met Treasury Ministers, the
Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth). royal colleges, the British Medical Association, NHS
Employers and others to kick off this process, and we
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will the Secretary of
are working on it very urgently.
State give way?
I absolutely take the point made by my hon. Friend
Matt Hancock: I give way immediately. the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) that, as we
resolve the tax issue, we also need to rebuild the rotas
Robert Halfon: I am delighted that my right hon. that have been reduced because of the high marginal
Friend has mentioned new hospitals because we have a rates of tax. I urge each and every NHS hospital to play
new hospital coming in the Harlow constituency. Does its part in putting that right.
he not agree that that shows the level of investment that
this Government are putting into our national health Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I was a bit
service? Will he set out the plans for our new hospital—not disappointed that the Secretary of State does not plan
a rebuild, not a reconfiguration, but a new hospital for to build a new hospital in Wycombe, but I am glad to
Harlow? say that there is an opportunity to invest in a
transformational digital project, bringing together
Matt Hancock: That is right, and of those 40 new healthcare, social care and council services. Does he
hospitals over the next decade, one of the very first will agree with me that transforming the NHS, social care
be in Harlow. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend, who and council services for the 21st century is about more
has been a champion of Harlow for the last decade and than buildings, and that we do need to put such resource
has championed the need for a new hospital in Harlow. into digital?
I am working very closely with the Harlow trust to
Matt Hancock: I was going to come on to that later in
make sure that that new hospital delivers what is needed
my speech, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right. I had
for the people of Harlow. I very much look forward to
an excellent visit to Wycombe during the general election
working with him, and perhaps even being invited to
campaign. He has a brilliantly led local hospital that is
cut a ribbon in due course.
working incredibly hard. The use of modern technology
is a critical part of the agenda for bringing forward the
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): The reality on
NHS. To make sure that we can address patients’ concerns
the ground in the Halton part of my Weaver Vale
and do more work more effectively, the technology has
constituency is somewhat different. Twice the Halton
to work for the clinicians so that they can do their jobs
hospital campus has been turned down for capital
better.
investment. If the Secretary of State is true to his word
on delivery for northern constituencies such as mine, Several hon. Members rose—
will he please meet me? Let us have some progress there.
Matt Hancock: I will continue to take some interventions,
Matt Hancock: I am very happy to meet the hon. if the House will allow me, and then make some progress.
Gentleman. As well as the new hospitals, we also have
upgrades going on that are very important. Some hospitals Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): The Secretary
need to be completely rebuilt, we need some that are of State is being very generous in giving way a number
completely new and we also need to upgrade some. I am of times. I would like to thank him for his visit to
very happy to take that forward. Milton Keynes, and for his commitment to investing
not only in extra capacity but in infrastructure improvements
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): On the subject of the in our hospitals. Is he aware of the radiology and
Secretary of State being true to his word—I welcome radiotherapy treatment situation in Milton Keynes, with
him back to his place—he will remember being robustly patients having to travel to Oxford, temporarily, to
challenged on the NHS pensions issue when he came to receive their treatment? That is not the best situation for
Winchester hospital during the campaign. Can I thank those patients. Is he aware of the situation?
him for what appears to be a very positive response to
that conundrum, as reported this morning, and can I Matt Hancock: I am, because Milton Keynes’s new
urge doctors’ leaders to recognise a compromise when MP has already been working with me to bring this
they see one? However, does he recognise that there is a concern to light. I can inform him that the new cancer
1189 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1190

unit will be handed over to Milton Keynes hospital at Matt Hancock: Yes, I hope that we can make some
the end of next week. That problem is indeed temporary progress on Royston, because Royston is an example of
and it is being resolved, very much thanks to the hard how the NHS needs to be formulated more in the
work of the new MP for Milton Keynes. future. The NHS needs to be both more specific and
more local—more specialist and more local—with the
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): I thank high-quality, specialist, cutting-edge technologies in the
the Secretary of State for his meeting the other evening. most specialist of centres, such as the tertiary hospitals
I am sure my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow of this country. At the same time, it needs to get those
(Robert Halfon) is thrilled that he is one of the six to get services that can be as close to home as possible as close
a brand-new hospital. to home as possible, using the best of modern technology
to be able to do it. That means that hubs that are
In south-west Hertfordshire, as the Secretary of State somewhere between primary and secondary care are the
knows, we are not happy about having a hospital in the future, because so often someone can go and have a
middle of Watford, next to a football stadium. It is not scan at a hub and the scan can then be interpreted
right for my constituents or for many constituents of off-site in one of the specialist centres, which means
Members in the Chamber today. The Secretary of State that the patient does not have to travel as far. For
has committed to me privately to look at whether we instance, especially for an elderly patient, it can be
can have a new hospital elsewhere, and I know there incredibly helpful to be able to go just to the local health
is a review going on about the funding and how much hub or walk-in centre to have such a diagnosis.
that would cost. Would he like to reiterate that at the
That is the future of the NHS: more local and more
Dispatch Box?
specialist at the same time. It is one of the reasons why I
am such a fan of community hospitals, for instance.
Matt Hancock: Yes, we are doing that work to make This is about making sure that we support the NHS
sure that, as we pump hundreds of millions of pounds where people live, and that we end the generation of
into Hertfordshire to improve its healthcare, we get the putting more and more services into the really big
exact locations right. I look forward to working with hospitals and sucking them out of local community
my right hon. Friend on that. services. I will end that sucking out of local services,
and in fact I will put more into local communities. I
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) have talked about the technology agenda; one thing
(Con): I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State technology can do is empower the movement of the
for giving way, and I know he will move seamlessly from NHS to local communities. It is incredibly important
new hospitals to new treatments. I have rushed here that we do that.
from a reception being held today in the House on the Let me make some progress, Mr Deputy Speaker, in
subject of tinnitus. Tinnitus affects numerous constituents case you are unhappy with the amount of time I am
of his and mine and people across this country, and it is taking. I mentioned that we will be having 40 new
urgent that we do more research and put more funding hospitals over the decade, and we will also have—how
into the subject. many more nurses? Fifty thousand more nurses! We will
Will the Secretary of State give me news that I can have 6,000 more doctors in primary care, and 50 million
rush back to the reception with—I am hosting it, while more GP appointments. In response to a point raised by
simultaneously being here—thereby giving good news the shadow Secretary of State, this Government will
to hundreds of thousands of our constituents? deliver on their promises. Given our ageing population,
there is record demand on the NHS. I want to thank
each and every one of the 1.4 million colleagues who
Matt Hancock: I think that is an early warning that work in the NHS, and the more than 1 million people
my right hon. Friend is going to leave immediately after who work in social care. We must support those people
his intervention. He is quite right to raise the subject. so that our health and care systems are always there for
We are increasing the research budget, and I very much each and every one of us. With this Queen’s Speech, we
look forward to working with him on making sure that will do that.
that research goes where it is needed. I am very happy to
The Queen’s Speech commits us to six major legislative
look specifically at the case for increased research funding
reforms that will help us to ensure the NHS is set fair
for tinnitus and to work with him on it. If he were to
for the future and underpin our priorities across health
meet the Lords Minister, who is responsible for the
and social care. The top priority is people. The NHS is
research budget, that would be the most productive way
nothing without the people who work in it, and as
to take this forward.
demand increases, we need more people—more GPs,
more nurses, more mental health staff, and others—all
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): better trained and better supported by the best technology.
Does the Secretary of State agree with me that, in They must be better cared for by their employers, and
Hertfordshire, we have been fortunate to have extensive work to the top of their capabilities—that is incredibly
funding for new facilities at the hospital in Stevenage? important, and we must get the most out of people. For
Of course, my constituents further south also benefit instance, pharmacists can do so much more than the
from the improvements at the Princess Alexandra in current contract allows, and I want them to do much,
Harlow. However, one thing that would help to relieve much more.
the hospitals of some of their burden would be to have
more NHS hubs for social care and health together—that Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Does
is, of course, for primary care. Does he agree with that, the Secretary of State agree that this is not just about
and is he able to say any more about Royston, which I having more GPs, although we do need that, but about
have discussed with him in the past? the way GP practices work, with managers using technology
1191 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1192

[Bim Afolami] talking about increasing funding for the NHS, which
was opposed by Gordon Brown, who was Chancellor of
and other things to manage the demand for GP services? the Exchequer at the time. We will not take any lectures.
Will the Secretary of State further set out his plans in
that regard? I am thrilled that the public comprehensively rejected
the Labour party’s baseless scaremongering, which was
Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend is dead right. Pharmacies repeated through the election campaign and worried
should be doing more to keep the pressure off GPs, some of the most vulnerable people who rely on our
because they are in the community and more accessible, NHS. I lost count of the number of times I had to
and within a GP surgery not everything needs to be debunk some politicised nonsense put about by the
done by the GP. We are expanding the number of GPs Opposition across the country because they had nothing
by 6,000 over this Parliament, and increasing by 26,000 positive to say. The hon. Member for Leicester South
the number of other clinicians who work in primary was at it again yesterday and in his speech. He said that
care, supporting GPs. When someone goes to their the settlement in the NHS Funding Bill is a cap, although
primary care practice, they might see the GP, a practice clause 1 states that it is a minimum. Clause 1(1) states:
nurse, a pharmacist, a physio or a geriatrician. The “In making an allotment to the health service in England for
boundary that has existed since Lloyd George between each financial year…the Secretary of State must allot an amount
primary and secondary care, where someone either sees that is at least the amount specified”.
a GP or goes to hospital, needs to become more porous
so that we can have that care where it is right for Did the hon. Gentleman even read the Bill? Did he get
patients. to clause 1? I am not sure he bothered reading it.
My next point is that prevention is better than cure. Let us look specifically at the amendment. It calls for
Expanding primary care, allowing pharmacies to do reform of social care and for the Government to bring
more, growing our community teams—that is about forward a plan, and that is precisely what the Queen’s
driving prevention. My third priority is technology. Speech provides for. It also calls for additional funding
That is not just because we stand at the cusp of a health for the NHS, which is what we are legislating for. The
tech revolution that has the potential to transform long-term plan is fully funded by the largest cash injection
healthcare for the better, but because the first task is to in the history of the NHS, and I urge Members across
drag the NHS out of the 20th century and into the 21st. the House to support it fully. We can only fund the
NHS with a strong economy, and that is exactly what
The next priority is infrastructure, much of which we
we will do.
have already started to discuss. Buildings have to be
expanded and improved, and while we do that expansion,
with upgrades to the 40 new hospitals, we will also Mr Harper: The Secretary of State will have heard
repair the damage done by those terrible private finance my earlier exchanges with the shadow Secretary of
initiative deals that have hamstrung hospitals—deals State, which I hope were helpful. He will be aware that
struck by the hon. Member for Leicester South and his more than half the budget for adult social care in
friends: Mr PFI himself. When we hear from him about England is spent not on older people but on those of
the challenges that the NHS faces, everyone should working age, as we try to enable people to be more
remember with every word he says that he was at the independent and to work. Will he confirm that the
heart of the Treasury that was driving PFI, which has social care plan that he plans to discuss with other
caused so many problems across our national health parties, and which he will bring forward this year as the
service. Our plan is for a more integrated NHS, with a Prime Minister committed to do, will cover older people
culture that gives patients more control over their healthcare, and those of working age, and will probably entail
and colleagues more control over their work. different solutions for those two groups?

Jonathan Ashworth: The Secretary of State is so Matt Hancock: The proposals that we are working on
pleased with himself and that attack line, he really is. include solutions for the provision of social care for
older and retired people as they decline in the later years
Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): He’s got good of their lives, and for people of working age. Part of the
reason to be! point about consensus building is that we must be open
Jonathan Ashworth: The hon. Gentleman says that he to options and look right across the piece. It was a
has good reason to be. I was at the Treasury as a young disappointment that the Labour party proposals that
man in my twenties, signing off paper, when the Secretary came out in the autumn only covered older people and
of State was at the Bank of England, so by his logic, he not working-age adults, and that point must be addressed.
would have been putting up interest rates for hardworking I hope we can do that in a spirit of cross-party discussion,
families. I was at the Treasury, but I was not responsible and that those on the Opposition Front Bench will
for any PFI contract. If he is going to say that I was engage positively with that. We will engage right across
responsible for every decision made by the Treasury the House when trying to bring forward a solution.
when I was there in my mid-twenties, I will take
responsibility for giving the NHS the biggest cash boost Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): A few
in its history, which meant the shortest waiting lists. moments ago the Secretary of State spoke about
That is a record I am proud of; that is a record he has scaremongering. Has he had a chance to look at early-day
not been able to match. motion 56, which highlights one group of patients who
are scared? Pregnant migrant women face charges for
Matt Hancock: The cash boost that we are giving their maternity care, and it is believed that two or three
now is bigger. I think today is the anniversary of Prime women might even have died as a result of their fear of
Minister Tony Blair sitting on the couch of a TV show, going for treatment, because they did not know how to
1193 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1194

pay for it. Will the Secretary of State consider suspending Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
those charges and conduct a proper review of the public (Con): I want to bring the Secretary of State back to
health impact of that charging regime? social care. We have a duty in this Parliament to resolve
this issue, which for many decades has been kicked into
Matt Hancock: I will have a look at that early-day the long grass. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is
motion. This is an incredibly important subject that we not just about funding, but what service we want to
must get right. Of course it is fair for those who use the deliver for people? The discussion about the future of
NHS to make a contribution to it, and we have made social care should also be about service delivery, putting
changes to ensure that those who give birth get the together not just a sustainable funding model but a
support they need. The point I think the hon. Lady is model of delivery that is driven by integration of the
making is not only about the exact details of the rules, health and social care services. We often talk about that,
but ensuring that people are not put off because of a but it has not been delivered for patients and people on
concern about what the rules may be. I am very happy the ground.
to take up that point. On social care, I hope we can
reach a broad consensus. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before the
Secretary of State answers that, may I just gently remind
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I him that 40 people are trying to get in? It would be
want to give the Secretary of State a chance to be clear, generous if he could at least keep that in mind as he
following on from the question from the right hon. takes interventions.
Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), about what
he intends to do. The Secretary of State will know that I Matt Hancock: I will rattle through as fast as I can,
raised with him, on the day of the previous Queen’s Mr Deputy Speaker, but I also want to take as many
Speech in October, that we would be willing to sit down interventions as I can, if that is okay. [Interruption.]
and talk about this issue. Three months have been lost No, okay, no interventions. That is an unusual request
with nothing happening. All we hear from the Prime from the House, if I may say so. [Laughter.]
Minister is that something will happen in this Parliament. Putting social care on a sustainable footing, where
Why does he not use this chance at the Dispatch Box to everybody is treated with dignity and respect, is one of
say where the plan is. We have proposals. Where is his the biggest challenges we face as a society. The Prime
plan? When is he going to produce it? Minister has said that we will bring forward a plan for
social care this year. These are complex questions and
Matt Hancock: The Minister for Care, my hon. Friend the point my hon. Friend raises is very important.
the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), wrote to
the hon. Lady after the election and has not had a reply. The draft legislation on the long-term plan Bill aims
We are up for this conversation. The Prime Minister has to help us to: speed up the delivery of the long-term
been absolutely clear. We hope we can do it in a spirit of plan; reduce bureaucracy; and help to harness the potential
cross-party consensus. I hope we can have an approach of genomics and other new technologies. I hope the
to the health service that has some consensus. The truth House will support it.
is that I like the shadow Secretary of State. His politics The third piece of proposed legislation is the medicines
are quite close to mine, although I do not agree with his and medical devices Bill. We are at an important moment
approach on PFI. There has been good news for both of in the life sciences. This country can and will be at the
us recently. Both of us got the election result we wanted. forefront as the NHS gets access to new medicines and
[Laughter.] I did not want Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime new treatments earlier, so patients can benefit from
Minister and we discovered from the hon. Gentleman’s scientific breakthroughs sooner.
friends that neither did he. So let us go forward in a
spirit of as much co-operation as possible. Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): During the election campaign
Let me, if I may, go through each of the six measures the Prime Minister promised a member of the public
in the Queen’s Speech in turn. In addition to the NHS that the Government would look into the availability of
Funding Bill we announced yesterday, there will be our Kuvan. Kuvan has been available for the treatment of
long-term plan Bill. The plan, created in consultation PKU for 11 years. Will the Secretary of State commit to
with NHS colleagues, sets out how the NHS will improve ensuring that that drug becomes available?
the prevention, detection, treatment of and recovery
from major diseases including cancer, heart attack and Matt Hancock: I can tell the hon. Lady that since the
stroke. election I have been working on precisely that. I am very
happy to meet her to see whether we can make a
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Blood cancer is this breakthrough.
country’s fifth-most common cancer and the third-biggest
cancer killer. May I have assurances from my right hon. Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): Increasing microbial
Friend that that will also be a focus in the long-term resistance could have a devastating effect on the survival
plan on the cancer strategy? of people with sepsis. How will the medicines and
medical devices Bill help to support new treatments to
Matt Hancock: Yes. My hon. Friend has been an reduce antimicrobial resistance and support alternative
assiduous campaigner to make sure that blood cancers ways of tackling infection?
are right at the top of the agenda. It is an incredibly
important subject and it is very much in the long-term Matt Hancock: The medicines and medical devices
plan. We have managed to increase the survival rate Bill is designed to make it easier for hospitals to take
faster than most countries in Europe for most cancers. part in trials of cutting edge medicines, including
We need to keep that drive going forward. personalised medicines, and allow us to be a part of an
1195 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1196

[Matt Hancock] population is smaller. We have to solve those problems

and I look forward very much to working collaboratively
internationally competitive licensing and regulatory regime. across the Union to make sure that they are resolved.
This is all to improve patient safety right across the
board. It is not condition-specific; it is right across the
board. Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con): Many patients
from north-east Wales attend hospitals over the border
Fourth is patient safety reform. Here, I want to pay in Oswestry, Chester and Liverpool for general and
tribute to my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the specialist care. Last year there was a disagreement between
Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), for his the Welsh Labour Government and the Countess of
work on patient safety. The Health Service Safety Chester Hospital over paying for that care, and subsequently
Investigations Bill was introduced in the House of Lords care treatment was delayed or cancelled as a result. Can
in the previous Parliament to improve patient safety the Secretary of State reassure the House that he will
and create a learning culture across the NHS. We will speak to the Welsh Labour Government to avoid a
bring forward those proposals. recurrence of that situation?

Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): I thank the Matt Hancock: Absolutely. I am glad that we resolved
Secretary of State for giving way and for visiting me on the problems with the Countess of Chester Hospital
my campaign to become the newly elected Member serving patients who live in north Wales. I know that
for North Norfolk. On patient safety, the wonderful part of the world well, not least because I was born in
constituency of North Norfolk has the oldest constituency the Countess of Chester Hospital and, for the first
demographic in the entire country and the worst ambulance 18 years of my life, lived but a mile from my hon.
response times in the beautiful picturesque town of Friend’s beautiful Wrexham constituency—I travelled
Wells. We recently learned that the nearest hospital, the through it every day on my way to school—so I know
Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital, has the these cross-border issues intimately. It is ridiculous that
worst accident and emergency unit. I think these matters we reached a position where the Countess of Chester
are linked. Will my right hon. Friend commit to meeting Hospital was unable to take patients from north Wales
me urgently to discuss these really serious matters? because the Welsh NHS was unwilling to pay the relevant
costs. We reached a good compromise, and we must
Matt Hancock: Yes. I would be very happy to do that. ensure that it keeps working so that the problem does
I was struck by my hon. Friend’s enthusiasm for solving not happen again.
this problem when I visited during the election campaign. I will turn briefly to the fifth and sixth measures,
The problem is absolutely linked. The inability of Mr Deputy Speaker, which are very important. The
ambulances to get off the ramps, so to speak, at the fifth measure is mental health reform. Throughout the
Norfolk and Norwich, is causing problems for ambulance entire history of healthcare, mental health has been
response times. Many other hospitals have cracked this seen, treated and organised on a different basis from
problem. I look forward to working with him and the physical health. That is wrong. Over my generation the
Norfolk and Norwich, along with other local MPs attitude that society takes towards mental health has
whose constituents are affected, to try to solve that fundamentally shifted. We are not there yet, but our
problem. mental health and physical health must be seen on an
equal footing, and mental health must be treated as
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): May I first seriously as physical health.
welcome the announcements the Secretary of State is As Health Secretary, I have made mental health a
making today? One of the benefits of being a part of priority. Within the £33.9 billion of additional funding,
the Union is that Northern Ireland, through the Barnett mental health funding is increasing the fastest. We have
consequentials, will benefit from the huge influx of a plan to improve mental health services across the
money into the health service. Northern Ireland has one nation. Just this week we opened a new gambling addiction
of the longest waiting lists and we need many reforms clinic in Sunderland, and we will have 13 more across
to our health service. What work will he do with the the country, in recognition of the unmet demand in our
newly appointed Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly society. I fully support Claire Murdoch, the NHS mental
to ensure that the money is used effectively when it health director, in her call today for gambling firms to
comes to the Northern Ireland Executive? act responsibly and prevent the loss of life.
We are making progress in how we treat all forms of
Matt Hancock: I look forward very much to speaking mental ill health, but the legislation for mental health
to and working with the new Health Minister in Northern was written for a previous generation and we must
Ireland. I am delighted that there is a ministerial team bring it into the 21st century. The Mental Health Act
in Northern Ireland and I pay tribute to everybody who 1983 is nearly 40 years old, and some of our legislation
has worked so hard to make sure that that can happen. is still shaped by 19th-century views of mental illness. It
The right hon. Gentleman is right that the funding will is badly in need of modernisation. It is paramount that
increase. There are significant challenges in Northern we ensure that people have greater control over their
Ireland, about which he knows all too well, and I look treatment, and that everyone receives the dignity and
forward to trying to resolve them. The truth is that in respect they deserve. We must get the legislation right. I
Northern Ireland the number of people waiting more pay tribute to Sir Simon Wessely for the work that he
than a year for an operation is 10 times higher than in has done to set the parameters. We will publish a White
England, despite the much smaller population. It is four Paper within months and then bring forward a new
times higher in Wales, despite the fact that the Welsh mental health Bill.
1197 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1198

I want to say a word about the law governing the care The NHS Funding Bill will enshrine in law the
of people with autism and learning disabilities, which Government’s plan to give £33 billion extra per year by
concerns some of the most vulnerable people in our 2023-24. Although that is a bit of a stunt, as the
society. Again, parts of the law are antiquated. We are Government do not have to force themselves to act by
looking at this alongside the work on the Mental Health law, I am sure that it will be very welcome after such a
Act to ensure that the systems are appropriate and long drought. Of course, in real terms it represents
co-ordinated. £20 billion, and is therefore not additional new money
These are the six health and social care measures in but the extra funding already promised by the former
the Queen’s Speech. It is central to this Government’s Chancellor in 2018. It is claimed that it represents the
priorities that we meet the public’s expectations biggest uplift ever for the NHS, but it amounts to 3.4%
and deliver on our commitments. This Conservative per year, which is actually still less than the average
Government made clear and solemn commitments in annual uplift across the NHS’s history. It should allow
our manifesto. People in their millions placed their trust stabilisation of the NHS in England, but it is unlikely to
in us, many for the first time. People have entrusted us provide enough money for major transformation projects.
with the future of the NHS, and we will deliver on that The extra funding is again to be funnelled largely into
trust. the NHS itself, to make it sound like a bigger number,
but it ignores the other responsibilities of what is actually
Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Will my called the Department of Health and Social Care. Public
right hon. Friend give way just before he finishes his health funding has been cut by £850 million, with the
speech, because he is such a good egg? 10 most deprived areas in England losing over a third of
their central public health funding, while the least deprived
Matt Hancock: I do not know how my hon. Friend areas lost only 20%. Prevention services, such as smoking
knew that I was about to finish. cessation, which was mentioned by the hon. Member
for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker), have been cut.
Sir Charles Walker: I thank my right hon. Friend for That does not make sense, as £1 spent on helping
giving way, and I am sorry for arriving late in the someone to quit smoking saves £10 in treatment for
Chamber, Mr Deputy Speaker. First, I thank my right lung and heart diseases later.
hon. Friend for his action on mental health, which is Similarly, although the plan includes an extra £1 billion
fantastic news. Secondly, can we look at smoking cessation for social care, the funding gap is currently estimated to
and public health? Smoking is simply an appalling be £6 billion. With cuts of up to 60% to their central
thing to do. There are many products now on the budgets, councils simply cannot make up the difference.
market and we need to look at their efficacy, to see There is little point in pouring extra money into the
whether we can move people from smoking lit tobacco NHS without also tackling social care—it is like trying
to a pathway to zero tobacco. to fill a bath without putting in the plug.
Although it was Labour that introduced private
Matt Hancock: I want to see a pathway to zero
healthcare companies into the NHS and saddled all
tobacco too. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the
four UK health services with financially crippling private
work that he has done to draw attention to mental
finance initiatives, it was the coalition Government’s
health and to change the national conversation about it,
Health and Social Care Act 2012 that created the full-blown
and indeed the global conversation.
healthcare “market”in NHS England. The NHS long-term
We must meet each and every one of the commitments plan proposes to unpick some of that, with legislation
we made in our manifesto, because we are the party of to remove the barriers to integration, such as by repealing
the NHS, and that is the way it is going to stay. section 75, which forces commissioning groups to put
contracts out to tender, and getting rid of tariffs, which
Several hon. Members rose— can act as a perverse incentive and encourage hospital
admissions.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. A
It was the competitive market that drove NHS trusts
substantial number of Members wish to speak in this
in England into debts totalling £2.5 billion within two
debate, and we have a dozen maiden speeches. I am not
years. That led to the closure of beds and to the
imposing a controlled time limit, but Members should
downgrading and closure of A&E departments, and it
please take no longer than six minutes, to give those
has caused a marked decline in emergency care services,
Members making their maiden speeches a fair crack of
which have been consistently lagging about 10% behind
the whip.
NHS Scotland’s A&E performance since March 2015.
It is important to focus on the data from type 1 emergency
1.5 pm departments, as that is the most relevant definition—
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): As hospital-based A&E units that are open 24 hours a day,
the Secretary of State has said, health and social care is seven days a week. Diluting that with data from minor
delivered by people, and I would like to pay tribute to injury units and walk-in centres just masks the real
all my former colleagues across the UK who, regardless situation.
of system, are working their best to help patients. Performance has deteriorated in all four nations this
All four UK national health services face the same winter, but while one in six patients in Scotland are
challenges of increasing demand, workforce shortages waiting longer, a third of those in England and Wales
and tight finances, but the NHS in England has faced are waiting more than four hours in A&E. Unlike the
almost 10 years of unprecedented austerity, with annual three devolved nations, NHS England does not publish
uplifts of about 1% for quite a significant part of the the total time spent in A&E by a patient. It restarts the
past decade. clock to measure trolley waits for those needing beds.
1199 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1200

[Dr Philippa Whitford] promised in the 2015 general election. There are actually
1,000 fewer GPs in England, so I will not hold my
As was mentioned by the shadow Secretary of State, in breath.
December, nearly 100,000 patients waited over four I welcome reform of the Mental Health Act—which
hours, and often up to 12, for a bed. That time is on top is quite different from the legislation in Scotland—and,
of the original wait in A&E. in particular, the focus on compulsory detention, but we
The Government’s plan seems to be to change the need investment in mental health support and early
measure rather than dealing with the issue, but the intervention. It is good that we are talking much more
four-hour target is the canary in the coalmine, warning openly about mental health issues, including those of
of stress on the whole system—not just A&E, not just Members in this place, but we are still some way from
the flow through hospitals, but the assessment of what achieving parity of esteem.
is happening in the community. Poor disease prevention Having been a member of the pre-legislative Committee
rates and struggling primary care services lead to more a year and a half ago, I welcome the Health Service
patients going to A&E, while a lack of social care Safety Investigations Bill. The aim is to copy the principles
provision means that they can get stuck in hospital, of air accident investigation, with a focus on learning
which causes a lack of beds for emergencies. The lessons to prevent reoccurrence rather than apportioning
Government list social care reform in their legislative blame to one person, particularly as “system failure” is
programme, but the previously promised Green Paper is nearly always a contributor and the chance to “design
still nowhere to be seen, and no solution has been in” safety is then missed. While that will hopefully
proposed. improve the learning from major incidents, it would be
The Scottish Government choose to invest £276 more good to see more being done to prevent them from
per head in health and social care, because in a happening in the first place.
comprehensive health system a pre-emptive approach is I was working as a surgeon in 2008, when the Scottish
more cost-effective. That provides significantly more patient safety programme was set up. The first step was
GPs, nurses and beds per head of population. Free the introduction of a team approach to “pre-flight
prescriptions ensure that people take their medication checks” in operating theatres to prevent surgical errors.
and control chronic conditions, while the fact that joint As was reported in the British Journal of Surgery, that
replacements and cataract surgery are not rationed resulted in a 37% drop in the number of post-surgical
helps older people to remain active and independent deaths over approximately two years—among the largest
rather than needing more and more social care. Free reductions in surgical deaths ever documented. I was
personal care allows the elderly to stay in their own therefore surprised to hear from one of our Committee
homes, rather than ending up in care homes or even witnesses that the World Health Organisation pre-operative
hospital. checklist was not standard practice in all surgical services
The workforce is the biggest single challenge facing in England.
health and social care services. That problem has been The internationally acclaimed Scottish programme
aggravated by Brexit, with a 90% drop in the number of now extends to every aspect of healthcare and, despite
EU nurses coming to the UK and a one-third increase dealing with increasing numbers of older and more
in the number leaving it. As was mentioned earlier, the complex patients, it has dramatically reduced hospital
shortage of doctors has been acutely exacerbated by the mortality by a quarter over the last 10 years. Reducing
Government’s changes in the annual pension tax allowance; complications saves money, as well as being better for
some doctors are receiving tax bills for tens of thousands patients. For example, a one-third drop in bed sores
of pounds after working overtime. Many senior clinicians since 2012 is estimated to be saving between £2 million
have been refusing to do extra shifts, for which they are and £5 million a year in Scotland.
financially punished. That is likely to have been a major The Government must accept that they got it wrong
contributor to this winter’s poor performance, as we in 2012 with the Health and Social Care Act, and again
have not experienced either a flu epidemic or severe in 2016 with the removal of the nursing bursary. They
weather. I wish the Government and the medical bodies need to get rid of tuition fees, restore the bursary, and
well in sorting out an acute problem that will only make genuinely work to repair the fragmentation and damage
life for our patients worse. done to the NHS in England by their “market” approach.
We have been promised 50,000 extra nurses, but as The Prime Minister likes to attack the Scottish NHS. I
only 31,500 will be new staff, that will not cover the gently suggest that he take the plank out of his own eye,
44,000 nursing vacancies in England, and as recruitment read some statistics, and focus on sorting out the mess
is spread over five years, the gap is unlikely to close. I that his party has made of the health and social care
am sure that the profession welcomes the Government’s system for which he is actually responsible.
U-turn on the nursing bursary—yet another disastrous
Tory policy is having to be unpicked—but the promise
is for only £5,000 a year, compared with £10,000 in 1.17 pm
Scotland, and nursing students here will still face tuition Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): Let me start
fees. The removal of the bursary led to a one-third drop by saying that it is wonderful to see you in the Chair,
in the number of nursing applications, and a 5% drop in Mr Deputy Speaker, and that your presence there is a
the number of students starting each year. In contrast, signal to every new Member that it is possible to undergo
21% more nursing students have been starting each year the ups and downs of politics and come through on the
in Scotland since 2016. other side.
We have been promised 6,000 extra GPs to deliver I thank the Health Secretary for his personal commitment
5 million extra appointments over the next five years, to patient safety in including the Health Service Safety
but we are still waiting for the 5,000 extra who were Investigations Bill in the Queen’s Speech, and I thank
1201 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1202

the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social thanks to substantial additional funding by the last
Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire Labour Government and by this Government, the NHS
(Ms Dorries), for her personal commitment in ensuring has improved dramatically, and we now have record
that it featured in both last year’s Queen’s Speech and survival rates for every major disease category.
the current one, despite many competing pressures. It is
about patient safety that I wish to talk in my brief six Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I thank
minutes. When I became Health Secretary in 2012, I the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Three years
had not heard the phrase. ago my mother died of sepsis, and sepsis is still a big
The first crisis with which I had to deal was the one at problem that needs to be addressed in hospitals.
Mid Staffs. I remember the then chief executive of the
NHS, Sir David Nicholson, taking me aside and saying, Jeremy Hunt: I thank the hon. Lady for raising that.
“You just need to understand, Jeremy, that in healthcare We have made huge progress in sepsis care, and the vast
we harm 10% of patients. That is what happens all over majority of people who go to A&E now are checked for
the world.” I then asked the awkward question about sepsis, but mistakes still happen, and I am sure that it
how many people actually died because of mistakes in affected her as it affected the families of the people I
healthcare. have talked about.
It is important to point out that this is not about the We must not be complacent about the things that go
NHS; it is about how healthcare is practised everywhere. wrong. In the NHS, we talk about “never events”—the
However, being the good old NHS, we have carried out things that should never happen. Even now, after all the
endless academic studies on this. The Hogan and Black progress on patient safety, we operate on the wrong part
analysis shows that, at that time, 4% of hospital deaths of someone’s body four times a day. It is called wrong
had had a 50% or more chance of being preventable. If site surgery. When I was Health Secretary, we amputated
we do the maths, that works out at about 150 preventable someone’s wrong toe, and a lady had her ovary removed
deaths every single week—the equivalent of an aircraft instead of her appendix.
falling out of the sky every single week.
Then I met a group of people who persuaded me that Dr Whitford: I know that the right hon. Gentleman
this issue should be my main focus as Health Secretary. visited the Scottish patient safety programme to see in
I met Scott and Sue Morrish, a young couple from action the WHO checklist, which is designed precisely
Devon who lost their son Sam to sepsis when he was to prevent such events, so can he explain why the
three because it was not picked up early enough; James checklist was never introduced during his time as Secretary
Titcombe, who lost his son Joshua at Morecambe Bay of State?
when he was nine days old; Deb Hazeldine, who lost her
mother in a horrible death at Mid Staffs; Martin Bromiley, Jeremy Hunt: Actually, we do have WHO checklists
who lost his wife Elaine because of a surgery error at a throughout the NHS in England—I think they were
hospital in Milton Keynes; and Melissa Mead, who lost introduced under Lord Darzi in the last Labour
her son William when he was just 12 months old—in Government—but the truth is that even with those
December 2014, when I was Health Secretary—again checklists, which are an important innovation, mistakes
because sepsis was not picked up. are still made because sometimes people read through
Those people all did something that most of us lists and automatically give the answer they think people
would never do. Most of us, when we have a tragedy in want to hear. This is why we have to be continually
our lives, want to close the chapter and move on, but vigilant.
they chose to relive their tragedy every single day because What is the solution? It is to ask ourselves honestly,
they wanted to tell their story and make the NHS when a mistake happens and when there is a tragedy,
change so that other families did not go through what whether we really learn from that mistake or whether
they had been through. They paid a terrible price for we brush it under the carpet. To understand how difficult
doing that. James Titcombe had to write more than an issue that is, we have to put ourselves in the shoes of
400 emails over several years before we were prepared the doctor or nurse when something terrible happens,
to admit why Joshua died. Martin Bromiley sacrifices such as a baby dying. It is incredibly traumatic for them,
40% of his salary as an airline pilot so that he can go just as it is for the family. They want to do nothing more
round the NHS talking in hospitals free of charge about than to be completely open and transparent about what
what happened to Elaine. Melissa Mead carries William’s happened and to learn the lessons, but we make that
teddy everywhere. She goes into TV studios to try to practically impossible. People are terrified about being
alert people to the dangers of sepsis, and she brought it struck off by the Nursing and Midwifery Council or the
to her first meeting with me. Inside that teddy were General Medical Council. They are worried about the
William’s ashes. That is a meeting I will never forget as a Care Quality Commission and about their professional
Minister. reputation. They are worried about being fired. In order
We must not let this blind us to the fact that the vast for a family whose child is disabled at birth to get
majority of NHS care is absolutely brilliant. I have compensation, they have to prove that the doctor was
three beautiful healthy children, thanks to the NHS. negligent, but any doctor is going to fight that.
About a year before I was Health Secretary, I was in the The truth is that many of the mistakes that are made
Cabinet and I had a basal cell carcinoma removed from are not negligence, but we make it so difficult to be open
my head. A local anaesthetic was administered, and the about the ordinary human errors that any of us make in
surgeon had his scalpel out. The head nurse looked at all our jobs. As we are not doctors and nurses, people
me and said, “By the way, Mr Hunt, what is it you do do not generally die when we make mistakes. That
for a living?” This was a time of austerity and cuts, and shows the courage of entering that profession, and if we
I froze before giving the answer to that question. But make it difficult for people to be open, we will not learn
1203 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1204

[Jeremy Hunt] I have pointed this out time and again to those
running the consultation. Meanwhile, they have spent
from those mistakes. That is why we need to change millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money on misleading
from a blame culture to a learning culture. That is also impact reports with utterly astounding gaps in their
why, as we reflect on the devastating news that the analysis. Let us take Pollards Hill in my constituency. It
Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, would be considered deprived by comparison with much
my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire of Sutton or Epsom, but it was deemed by the consultation
(Ms Dorries), gave the House last night that the Shrewsbury to be outside St Helier Hospital’s catchment area. However,
and Telford Hospital NHS Trust is now examining the largest GP surgery in Pollards Hill directs 34% of its
900 cases dating back 40 years, we realise that the patients to the hospital. That matters, because areas
journey that the NHS has started on patient safety must that rely on St Helier were not even considered in the
continue. We should take pride in the fact that we are analysis, so how can the potential impact of moving
the only healthcare system in the world that is talking acute services from the hospital be adequately assessed?
about this issue as much as we are, and if we get this I have pointed out such gaps, but they have not been
right, we can be a beacon for safe healthcare across the rectified, and the health and deprivation figures in my
world and really turn the NHS into the safest and constituency have been disguised by including the
highest-quality healthcare system anywhere. neighbouring constituency of Wimbledon and calculating
the deprivation for Merton as a borough. This is not a
1.26 pm political tool; it is a hospital, and it should be based
where it is needed.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): The situation gets even more unbelievable, because
This is my first contribution in the House in this new the deficient evidence was then assessed in behind-closed-
Parliament, and it is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, doors workshops, with all those attending forced to sign
Mr Deputy Speaker. a non-disclosure agreement before being allowed in.
That brings us to the present day, with the latest consultation
Given that the subject of today’s debate is health and launched last week. The flawed analysis has been used
social care, I would like to start by expressing my to decide on Belmont as the preferred site for acute
sincere admiration for the selfless and dedicated staff services in south-west London, and that preference is
who have kept our NHS operating this winter under the clearly stated on the consultation document itself. How
most testing of circumstances. It has been a period that can that possibly be acceptable?
has pushed A&E waiting times to their worst on record,
Maybe I should just be grateful that these documents
but despite 10 years of austerity leaving our treasured
were actually delivered to all households this time around,
NHS desperately short of staff, services and supplies,
rather than to the preferred target areas like last time. It
the biggest threat to my constituents is to be found far
is time for some accountability and for the Government
closer to home. Yes, it is back. From now until April
to step in before St Helier Hospital’s future is thrown
fool’s day, of all days, my constituents are once again
into jeopardy. I challenge every foundation that this
being consulted on the future of St Helier Hospital.
programme has been built upon, and I appeal to Ministers
Under countless brands and titles, this consultation to step in before another penny of taxpayers’ money is
has been run time and again at a staggering cost of over wasted on this bogus consultation. It is time for the
£50 million. This latest consultation has been triggered madness to end. Leave these vital services where
thanks to the Government pledge of £500 million to they are most needed: at Saint Helier hospital on its
Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust. current site.
This time it is branded as “Improving Healthcare Together”, 1.31 pm
and it builds on the unscrupulous foundation of its
predecessors to determine how those funds will be used James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con): It
and where the acute hospitals in south-west London is good to see you restored your place, Mr Deputy
should be based: in St Helier or Belmont. Speaker, and a particular privilege to take part in today’s
debate on the Gracious Speech, with a particular focus
Of course I welcome any investment in our treasured on our precious NHS. It is also good to see the emphasis
NHS, but as ever, the devil is in the detail. These latest in the Government’s programme on funding, innovative
proposals push for both St Helier and Epsom hospitals medicines, safety and mental health, so that we can
to lose their key acute services, moving them south to improve the services that our NHS delivers and improve
Belmont. The reality is that St Helier would lose its the lives of those who needs its care.
major A&E, consultant-led maternity, acute medicine, The timing of today’s debate has some particular
critical care, emergency surgery, in-patient paediatric poignancy for me. I was struck by the comments of my
and children’s beds. That represents 62% of St Helier’s right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey
beds, and the move would leave a shell of a hospital that (Jeremy Hunt) about the ups and downs of politics. It is
could more accurately be described as a walk-in centre. almost exactly two years to the day that I had surgery to
The consultation assumes that my constituents will remove the top part of my right lung and the cancerous
travel to the new site regardless of where it is, but they tumour contained within it, but I am pleased to say
will not. If St Helier is downgraded, my constituents that, in the immortal lyrics of Sir Elton John, “I’m still
will turn to either St George’s, where the A&E is already standing.” [HON. MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] I count my
in the bottom quartile for space standards, or Croydon blessings each day, and today provides me with a further
University Hospital, where bed occupancy is already at opportunity to pay tribute to the incredible people in
99%. How can it possibly be a sensible idea to force even our NHS who saved my life and continue to save the
more people to rely on such overstretched services? The lives of countless people up and down the country every
impact would be devastating. single day.
1205 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1206

I have learned so much over the past two years, and I like lung cancer, because people may make wrongful
am determined to use my experiences to act as an assumptions that it must be perhaps the sufferer’s fault
advocate for change, especially for less survivable cancers as they must have smoked. However, as one leading
such as lung cancer. I have been heartened by the clinician said so effectively and succinctly at a recent
encouragement of colleagues across the House—even conference I attended, “If you have got lungs, you can
the colleague who upon my return to the Members’ Tea get lung cancer.”
Room after surgery said, “Didn’t expect to see you All this needs to be looked at in context. We need the
back.” To this day, I am quite sure that the omission of right workforce in place with the right equipment and
the words “so speedily” was simply an unconscious the right systems and processes to back it all up. I
oversight. welcome the Government’s commitment to increased
Over half of us will get cancer at some stage in our investment in CT scanners and to increasing the overall
lives. That is why we need to be more open about and number of nurses, but we need to recognise the particular
change the nature of the conversation around the disease. role of specialist nurses and the incredible difference
For many people, cancer is becoming the treatment of a that they make. I look forward to the publication of
chronic condition, and more and more people are living Baroness Harding’s workforce planning review, and I
well with or beyond cancer. hope that it sees this special group of nurses strengthened
and supported and that their numbers will be increased.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the right There can be no doubt about the pressures that exist
hon. Gentleman for giving way. I was pleased to see him within the system and the increasing demands that our
back after his operation, and he is making a clear case NHS has to meet, but the overwhelming experience of
on cancer-related issues. Just this week, I met representatives most people who use and rely on our NHS is positive,
from the Teenage Cancer Trust who indicated that, for with a real appreciation of just how special it is. We need
young people and teenagers, cancer is not just about the to continue to stand up for it, to champion it and to be
operation and other physical activities, but mental anxiety, positive about what more it can achieve. I have every
too. The Government have set aside money to ensure confidence that we will and, in doing so, that we will
that that anxiety is addressed, but only 61% of such help improve the lives of the people it serves and the
services are taken up in hospitals and just 40% of the people we are privileged to serve as Members of this
available assistance and help is taken up afterwards. I House.
am sure that the Government response will be positive, Several hon. Members rose—
but does he agree that now is the time to address those
shortcomings for those who experience mental health Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I ask
anxiety due to cancer? for the usual courtesies during maiden speeches, please.
I call Sarah Owen.
James Brokenshire: I commend the hon. Gentleman 1.39 pm
for his point about mental health issues and some of the
stresses and strains, and there is a need for greater focus Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure to
and attention on teenage cancer patients. That leads me follow the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup
on to my next point, which is about the need to overcome (James Brokenshire), and I am pleased to see that the
the fear that a diagnosis can bring. I know what that NHS has got him back on his feet.
can feel like. Early diagnosis and speedier treatment are I am grateful for this opportunity to speak on health
key, not least to reduce the worry and sleepless nights and social care, as the issue is very close to my heart. I
that result from knowing something is wrong by getting start by paying tribute to the wonderful, dedicated staff
something done about it. It is great that the NHS at the Luton and Dunstable Hospital in my constituency.
long-term plan recognises that. By 2028, the plan commits We should all be grateful to every single person who
to improving cancer survival dramatically, increasing works there, from porters to paramedics, from healthcare
the proportion of cancers diagnosed early from a half assistants to operating department practitioners, and
to three quarters. That is why the NHS Funding Bill, from doctors to nurses. They are dedicated but often
with its commitment to an extra £33.9 billion a year for overstretched.
the NHS, is especially important. I declare my interest as a proud member, and former
There is, however, a question around how we turn the employee, of the GMB union. I support the ongoing
increased investment and that intent into the reality of campaign against the outsourcing of housekeeping and
improved outcomes. That is why we need to focus on domestic services at the L&D.
what I term the “SAS”: better screening for the disease, I know the devastating impact of outsourcing. As a
greater awareness of the disease, and a breaking of the carer working for an outsourced care company, I witnessed
stigma attached to the disease. By doing that, we can at first hand a business that put profit before patients. It
make a real step change. I welcome the introduction of was then, standing in front of a patient who desperately
the targeted lung cancer screening programme, which I needed more than the 15 minutes I had allotted for her,
championed, and which is being rolled out as we speak. that I knew our social care system was broken—and it is
I commend the charities and the regular campaign still broken today. All parties in this House must have
events to highlight the symptoms and, yes, the importance the political will to mend it, because the frustration of
of getting things checked out—especially for us blokes, health workers should not be underestimated.
who can be pretty rubbish at actually going to the My mother came to this country from Malaysia
doctors and doing something about it. The stigmas are 46 years ago, and she is still an NHS nurse today. She is
linked to that, and we need to talk about the big C, just like many people who come to this country from
because it is the disease that dare not speak its name. across the world to work in our fantastic NHS, and we
False judgments can be made, especially with something should never forget the debt we owe them.
1207 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1208

[Sarah Owen] worked under Churchill during the second world war,
while my grandad fought overseas with the Royal Engineers.
Mum came to see me swear in just before Christmas, They fought against vile fascism then, just as we must
and we took pictures by the Christmas tree in Westminster all renew our fierce opposition to those who discriminate
Hall. Her face went from smiley to thunderous in a against or dehumanise others in every corner of the
matter of seconds. Usually that look is reserved for world, from Luton to Kashmir to Hong Kong.
when I have done something truly awful, but it turns out It was not racism or hatred but the need for change
she was not scowling at me; she was looking at the that drove people to Brexit, and we must all hear that
person behind me, which happened to be none other call for change. Luton has a proud manufacturing history,
than the Secretary of State for Health. Joking aside, from Vauxhall to Electrolux, and it needs a future to be
when we see the latest proposal to scrap four-hour A&E proud of, too—one that provides the decent housing,
targets, who, frankly, could blame my mum? good schools, affordable transport and well-paid jobs
The NHS goes to the very heart of my party’s principles. that every Lutonian not only wants but richly deserves.
My predecessor, Kelvin Hopkins, embodies those socialist As their MP, that is exactly what I will fight for in Luton
Labour principles. He represented Luton North for North.
22 years and is beloved by many in the town. But for all
his and his wife Pat’s dedication to the area, what I am
1.45 pm
most grateful to them for is their daughter, my amazing
hon. Friend the Member for Luton South (Rachel Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I congratulate the
Hopkins). hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen) on her
Together we will represent the people of Luton with speech. It was a pleasure to listen to such a clearly
equal energy, commitment and dedication to the town, articulated speech by a new Member, with humour
because we will need to. Every cut to local government thrown in. I am sure she will be a very caring and
and every cut to every service has an impact on an committed Member of Parliament for her constituency.
individual we represent. Early-years providers like the I am delighted that this one-nation Conservative
fantastic Gill Blowers nursery, which I visited last week, Government want to level up opportunity across our
are facing a cut of a quarter of their budget. Firefighter country, particularly in areas like Burnley, where I grew
numbers in Bedfordshire have been cut by 9%. Each up and where we now celebrate a new Conservative
child in Luton North is £576 a year worse off. There are Member of Parliament. I welcome the words of Her
fewer police on our streets. All that comes against the Majesty in the Gracious Speech:
backdrop of a hostile environment. “A White Paper will be published to set out my Government’s
Even in these challenging times, Luton has always ambitions for unleashing regional potential in England”.
punched above its weight. Together, the people of Luton In order to truly release the potential of all our
make the town the fantastic place it is. The mosques, communities—to promote healthy, caring and resilient
churches, businesses and wider community have come communities—we need to strengthen families. Colleagues
together to support Luton’s food bank, making sure the may not be surprised to hear me say that.
most vulnerable in our community are looked after.
The Conservative manifesto said on page 14:
The entire community came together to make the “A strong society needs strong families. We will improve the
dream of the new Power Court stadium a reality and to Troubled Families programme…to serve vulnerable families with
deliver the regeneration Luton wants. The Labour council the intensive…support they need to care for children—from the
led by Hazel Simmons works with communities to early years and throughout their lives.”
continue building much-needed council housing while I believe we need to do much more than support troubled
facing over £100 million-worth of cuts. Time and time families, not that the news two weeks ago of a £165 million
again, Luton comes together to say no to the hatred and boost to extend the troubled families programme is
division of the far right. unwelcome—it is welcome. We now need to build on
I learned through the trade union movement that we the good work of the previous Conservative-led
are stronger together and that we should not let people Government and broaden our commitment to help
divide us. That is sound advice for any workplace, but it strengthen families. Indeed, why not rename the troubled
is a lesson for our communities and our country, too. families programme the wider “strengthening families
The people of Luton North know this to be true. programme” that it should be? Every family goes through
Luton’s diversity is its strength, and I am proud to be challenges, and every family needs support at some
bringing up this little one in a multicultural town that time.
comes together. I also welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment at
Yes, in case Members have not noticed, I am pregnant—it last week’s PMQs to champion and support family
is not just a good Christmas. She is, in every way, a little hubs, which every Member of Parliament could similarly
mix. A mix of east Asian, Irish and British. She is promote and champion locally. Family hubs are a practical
essentially Luton in a baby. And, yes, she will be donning way to help strengthen families, with a place in every
a Luton Town shirt and going to games in a brand-new local community offering help to families as and when
stadium that will be fit for her generation and future they need it. More of that shortly.
Lutonians. Judging by how she is kicking me right now, Building a stronger, healthier society surely starts
she might even try out for the team. with the family, the basic building block of society.
In the face of the hatred we saw in the past, we on When we fall on hard times or become seriously ill, our
these Benches will have to be staunch defenders of the family is often the first port of call. Our family, at best,
equality and diversity I know run to our country’s core. teach us our values, shape our identity and nurture our
Just over the road, in the Cabinet war rooms, my grandma sense of responsibility to society.
1209 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1210

Weakness in our family units—when they are inevitably allows for insulation from some of the pressures
dysfunctional, when they disintegrate or when our closest that often drive poorer people apart or result from their
relationships do not work and we become distressed splitting up.
about them—has repercussions in so many ways. It can What should be done? First, we need to champion
increase children’s mental ill health and insecurity, preventing the strengthening of families right across Government
them from attaining their best education and employment and as individual Members of Parliament. The public
potential. It puts pressure on GP surgeries through want us to do that. Recent polling by the Centre for
increased rates of depression, addiction and other ailments. Social Justice shows that 72% of adults believe that
It puts a strain on housing provision when families split family breakdown is a serious problem in Britain and
up, and it increases work absenteeism, exacerbates loneliness 81% think that strengthening families is important in
in old age and makes state provision for elderly care order to address our current social problems. That
completely unsustainable. In other words, it makes not should start with focusing on communities that feel
just our families but our wider communities less cohesive, they have been left behind and that feel dislocated, with
less healthy, less productive and less resilient to the a loss of belonging, where there has been a rise in
inevitable shocks that life throws at us all. poverty and street crime.
If we really mean what we say about levelling up We should focus on places where people feel unequal
those parts of our country that feel they have been and where there are high levels of children in care and a
neglected, we must realise that we will never achieve large proportion of isolated adults. Government must
that simply by repairing neglected physical infrastructure, champion the family—that must be central to the way
such as roads and bridges, good though that is. If we are that every Department thinks, because family policy
really to make a local-lasting, generational difference in does not fit neatly into a single Department. There
the lives of people who feel left behind, it must surely should be a Cabinet lead and an office for family policy,
also mean helping them to strengthen local communities and every Department should develop a family strategy.
where relationships have fractured. That should mean, The family impact assessment—also known as the “family
as a priority, strengthening families, so that they can not test”—should be put on a statutory footing. We could
only flourish but contribute positively to those local do worse than to have one of the Members successful in
communities going forward. last week’s ballot pick up the oven-ready Bill that I
Family breakdown is serious, socially, culturally and introduced on this issue in the last Parliament.
economically, and this country has one of the highest However, I am delighted that the Government are
rates of it among 30 OECD countries, yet successive committed to championing family hubs, as those are
Governments have shied away from accepting and one way in which we can all help to strengthen our local
addressing this. Let this Government be bold and different. communities and family life within them. What are
Why? Because the young, the poorest and the most family hubs? I will not take much longer, Mr Deputy
vulnerable pay the highest price when family life fractures, Speaker, but let me say that they are one-stop shops
with children from fractured families being twice as offering a range of support and specialist help to parents,
likely to develop behavioural problems and being more couples and children, aged nought to 19 and beyond.
likely to suffer depression, turn to drugs or alcohol, or That can include relationships counselling and mental
perform worse at school and not achieve their job or life health services, childcare, early-years healthcare and
potential. There is an increased chance of their living in employment support. They provide help with a troubled
income poverty in the future and of their own relationships teen or a carer, and much more. They are backed by the
being less stable in adulthood. local authority but they work in conjunction with charities
It is not just children who suffer from family collapse. and local businesses. They bring together statutory and
Divorce and separation have led to increasing estrangement voluntary approaches and are currently developing in
between elderly parents and older children in later life, half a dozen towns across the country.
with growing loneliness among older people. More than The hubs are proving that they can have significant
a quarter of a million people over 75 in this country outcomes, with children and young people feeling safer;
spent this Christmas day alone. This epidemic is causing families being helped to improve parenting and children’s
widespread misery and impeding the life chances, health behaviour; mothers and children having better emotional
and wellbeing of millions of people. It is a national wellbeing; good lifestyle choices being made; and families
emergency that should warrant the same level of concern being more resilient when shocks occur. We need more
and attention as climate change. It should warrant the of these hubs. Let us avoid the trap of previous
Government reshaping their Departments, for it affects Governments, where families remained everyone’s concern
almost all of them. It requires a Cobra-style committee but nobody’s responsibility. Let us take up our responsibility
to pull together across Government to champion families as a one-nation Government to fulfil our manifesto
and not condemn another generation to the destructive commitment to strengthen families and strengthen society.
effects of dysfunctional family relationships. At its worst,
we see that in people’s involvement in county lines; 1.56 pm
reportedly, it involves as many as 10,000 young people, James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op): Thank
with many seeking the comfort of a gang to replace that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to give my
of a family. maiden speech. I will begin by giving my heartfelt
It is a tragedy that more than a million children in thanks to the people of Ealing North for putting their
this country today have no meaningful contact with trust in me, and I would like to thank one resident of
their father. The poorest and working-class families are Ealing North in particular: Mr Steve Pound.
bearing the brunt of family breakdown most. Such Every morning in the run-up to the election, Steve
families are more prone to break up and they are less and I would drive to a primary school to speak to
resilient when it happens. Greater financial security parents outside the school gates. Those car journeys
1211 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1212

[James Murray] situation as Iraqi refugees in Jordan. It was heartbreaking,

and those in power should never forget that our country’s
were filled with stories about Ealing North and jokes mistakes around the world cast a very long shadow.
that were as funny as they were often unrepeatable. The I will fight for the health and social care system that
warmth and affection the parents showed toward Steve we need, which is something that the people I represent
was awesome and inspiring, and it was typical of people so clearly and dearly want. It is also very personal for
across Ealing North and beyond. It could be a little me. In the late 2000s, I was diagnosed with a rare,
intimidating too, as he leaves very large boots to fill, but long-term neurological condition called myasthenia gravis.
I drew some comfort on that front from Steve’s own It causes muscle weakness, which made it difficult, or
maiden speech. Using characteristically direct language, sometimes impossible, for me to do things like go running,
he said of one his predecessors: speak at length or smile. But the NHS came to my
“I am somewhat tired of constantly being told how I compare rescue. My wonderful consultant and all his colleagues
to the right hon. Gentleman.”—[Official Report, 10 November got me through a major operation and on to a painstakingly
1997; Vol. 300, c. 606.] calibrated set of medications. I have been symptom-free
During the election Steve was unfailingly kind and since the early 2010s, and I will fight every day for our
generous when introducing me to people. He would tell NHS with the strength that it has given me back. [HON.
them that I would be just as diligent an MP as he had MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”]
been, but with more hair. I cannot guarantee my hairline As the MP for Ealing North, I draw strength from
after a few years in this place, but I know that nothing local campaigners and their enormous determination to
will recede about my determination to work tirelessly protect our NHS, and particularly local services that
for the people of Ealing North. have been under threat. In 2015, the maternity unit at
Ealing Hospital was closed. Since then, no babies have
It is the honour of my life to represent the place been born in hospital in Ealing. In 2016, the children’s
where I grew up. Before Christmas, I visited Perivale A&E closed, too. Plans to close the main A&E were, in
Brewery, on Horsenden Farm, just down from Horsenden a triumph of public pressure, finally dropped after a
Hill, where I used to fly my kite when I was a boy. Last seven-year fight, but across the London North West
year, I ran the Ealing half marathon, on behalf of the University Healthcare NHS Trust, waiting times in
Ealing Churches Winter Night Shelter, through Pitshanger A&E last month were over four hours for 39% of
Park, where I used to collect conkers with my grandmother patients.
30 years ago. Those places, and others along the River
Across the country, our beloved NHS is creaking, yet
Brent, Northala Fields and many more besides make up
the promises made by the Government are, as the
Ealing North’s wonderful greenery. They offer a calmness
Health Foundation has said,
to balance the pace of life in part of the greatest city in
“simply not enough to address the fundamental challenges facing
the world and, let us be honest, the stress of traffic on the NHS’.
the A40. But Ealing North is defined not just by its
physical highlights; it can also be described by the The Government have also failed to offer the plan or
strength of its many overlapping communities. funding needed to fix the crisis in social care.
We must win the battle for the NHS and the social
Our part of London is home to communities from care system that we need. That is what I will fight for on
India, Pakistan, Poland, Ireland, Somalia, Sri Lanka, behalf of the people I represent, and I thank them
Armenia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, and many more again for the honour of allowing me to do so. They
besides. It is home to LGBT+ people building their lives must know that I will never flinch from my determination
and their families. It is home to people of all faiths who to fight for a fairer future for Ealing North, for our
have invited me in, at St Mary’s, St Barnabas, St Stephen’s, country and for our world.
Ealing Gurdwara, Shree Jalaram Mandir, the Greenford
Central and Bilal Masjid mosques, the Ealing Liberal 2.2 pm
Synagogue, All Hallows, Holy Cross and many more
besides. Our community organisations also bring people Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
together, whether at the Royal British Legion Club or at (Con): First, may I draw your attention, Mr Deputy
the Wood End Residents’Association’s legendary Christmas Speaker, and that of all Members to my declaration in
party. Members of the community look out for each the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a practising
other. Just last Saturday, volunteers were busy running NHS psychiatrist?
the Ealing Foodbank next to my surgery at Greenford Before I address the motion and speak in support of
Methodist Church. Those volunteers deserve our deepest the Queen’s Speech and its focus on health and social
thanks and, as their MP, I will do everything I can to care, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Ealing North
end the injustice in our society that makes their work (James Murray). I have no doubt that he will have the
vital. eloquence of his predecessor—somebody we in the
House knew for his many jovial speeches. I also have no
I will work day in, day out, for the people of Ealing doubt that he will match the diligence that his predecessor
North. We need investment in public services so that showed as a constituency MP in fighting for the needs
our young people are safe from getting involved with or of his local residents, not least by standing up for his
becoming the victims of crime. We need investment in local NHS and maintaining a health service locally that
new, high-quality council homes to make sure that meets the needs of people in Ealing. I wish the hon.
everyone has a decent and secure place that they can Gentleman very well in all that he does in this place.
afford.
Many commendable and positive things can be
I will stand up for a foreign policy that always avoids recognised in the contribution by my right hon. Friend
the rush to war. At my surgery on Saturday, a woman the Secretary of State. He rightly talked about the need
spoke to me through tears about her parents’ desperate for increased investment in the health service and about
1213 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1214

the need to support the staff who work on the frontline. rural Queensland and the Northern Territory; we need
He rightly identified the need to improve mental health to take lessons from those healthcare systems and apply
provision and talked about the need to find political them here so that we can address workforce shortages
consensus on social care. on the frontline. Without the staff, we cannot deliver the
I intend to talk briefly about a couple of those issues, care. It is all very well to talk about improvements in
but before I do so it is worth observing that we now patient safety and other things, but unless we have the
have a new Prime Minister and the Government have a staff to do it, we cannot deliver it. I hope that there is
strong mandate. That is an opportunity to reflect on now an opportunity for the Government to grip these
what we could do as a Government to improve the issues. Staff planning takes more than just one
legislation that we ourselves have passed and that has parliamentary cycle until the next general election; it is
perhaps had unintended consequences. There is a particular a five or 10-year mission, but it is one that we need to
concern among patients and people who work in the grip now if we do not want to have lasting workforce
NHS about the fragmentation of services, which has shortages in many regions of this country.
been the result of the sometimes market-driven approach In particular, I draw the attention of those on the
to the delivery of healthcare and the encroachment of Treasury Bench to the challenges that we face in mental
the private sector on the delivery of traditional NHS health. It is absolutely right and commendable that we
services. have focused on destigmatising mental health and on
As a clinician, what matters most to me is that we the importance of mental health liaison services. Professor
deliver the right services for patients. We need to recognise Simon Wessely did a welcome review of the Mental
that the involvement of private sector provision has Health Act 1983 that was long overdue. I am sure we
sometimes led to greater fragmentation and a lack of will address those issues.
joined-up care for patients. In particular, if we look at We have to recognise that community mental health
how addiction services are commissioned, we see the services have been substantially the Cinderella of mental
impacts of that on increasing homelessness and people health services for far too long. If we want to improve
not getting treatment in a timely manner, or on the care and prevent people with mental ill health from
joined-up care with the NHS afterwards. If we look at getting so unwell that they need to turn up at hospital,
how some sexual health services are now commissioned, we need to recognise that the primary focus of investment
we see that it is done in a fragmented way that often lets in mental health services—indeed, one of the issues we
patients fall through the cracks. With a fresh mandate face is a staffing crisis in mental health, with falling
and a new Prime Minister, I hope we have an opportunity numbers of frontline mental health nurses in the community
to look at that and be honest that the answer is not —must be in community services. They have been hollowed
always in the market—that the answer is in well-funded, out for too long and now need investment.
properly delivered public services that are free at the
point of need and often run by the state. We have to be
honest about that and recognise where we could do Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order.
things better in future. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he has
now spoken for seven minutes and we are on a six-minute
The second point I wish to make is on the need to time limit, so I know that he will finish soon.
value our staff. NHS staff have had a difficult period,
with wage restraint and morale issues—for example, as
a result of the junior doctor dispute. We also need to Dr Poulter: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I
recognise the challenges relating to the NHS workforce am sure that Members on the Treasury Bench will take
which Brexit has brought into focus. We are very reliant, away and look at the issue I just outlined.
and have been historically, on the contributions made The Government are rightly looking for political
by members of the NHS who come from all over the consensus on social care and on finding a sustainable
world, from within the EU and from throughout the funding formula. However, as part of that, they should
country, and frankly our NHS could not work without also consider how social care services need to look. It is
them. We are very grateful for those contributions and no good bringing in money when the mode of delivery
it is right that we support those people in our NHS. is wrong. I hope that, as part of the consensual approach,
Of course we need to focus on improving the number there will be a renewed focus on delivering care in the
of British-trained graduates across the health service, community in an integrated way, thus joining up the
but we also need to recognise that the staffing crisis is health and social care systems. I hope that that will be
the biggest issue that we now face. If we want to realise part of the important review and the approach to
the ambition to increase nursing numbers and GP political consensus that the Government are trying to
appointments, we have to recognise that across the piece deliver.
there is a need to take staff training, recruitment and
retention seriously. We need to look at the fact that in
different parts of the United Kingdom—for example, Several hon. Members rose—
the north-west or the north-east—there are fundamental
staffing challenges and a difficulty in recruiting and Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order.
retaining staff that is much more acute than it may well The reason why we do not have a formal time limit is to
be in the south of England. I know the Government try to help people who are making maiden speeches. It
want to look at that, but we need to come up with is difficult to make your maiden speech against the
meaningful answers. clock. It should not be difficult for people who have
We need to look overseas at examples in Australia, spoken in the Chamber many times to speak for six
where they have to cover a very large land mass. They minutes, so when we get to six minutes, I will call
have had challenges attracting staff to work in parts of “Order.” I call Julie Elliott.
1215 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1216

2.10 pm that they feel stronger fighting their illness knowing

they have the support behind them that they need. That
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): Thank you, is why the Government need to do a full review of
Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will take that amount of treatment and care pathways for people who suffer from
time. eating disorders and ensure that there are services that
I want to speak today on eating disorders, an issue people can approach, and that they can be treated
that is important to me and many of my constituents quickly and effectively.
and friends who have approached me about the subject. However, there is also a big variety in quality and
Awareness of mental health issues has been on the rise, speed of treatment depending on where people live in
with recent examples such as the Football Association’s the country. We need to see the end of the postcode
Heads Up campaign encouraging people to take a lottery, which means that the quality and speed of care
minute out of their lives to think about their mental is based on where people live and what age they are, and
health. The ongoing work of organisations such as sometimes ends in those lucky enough to be referred
Mind and Beat has meant good progress on combating being sent to hospitals more than 200 miles from where
the stigma of mental health issues and informing the they live. Only yesterday, I saw a letter to a young
public about the importance of taking care of mental woman who, after an urgent referral, has been told she
health. should expect an 18-month wait to be seen by a
There is undoubtedly still a lot of work to do on psychological therapist. That is truly shocking. I therefore
eating disorders. It is such an incredibly important and fully agree with the calls on the Government by leading
pressing issue, and at the same time so preventable with eating disorder charity Beat to hold the NHS to account
proper support, funding and attention, that I am for comprehensive implementation of the access and
disappointed that it was not named in the Gracious waiting time standard for children and young people in
Speech as a subject on its own. The only mention of every region and community.
mental health is: There is desperate need for direct investment in a
“My Ministers will continue work to reform the Mental Health fully supported NHS that does not need to divert the
Act.” funds assigned to mental health to other areas to plug
I very much hope that eating disorders will be part of massive funding deficits in an attempt to continue to
the reform. provide basic care.
There is a major problem with the way eating disorders We also need to ensure that our medical professionals
are dealt with in this country. From poor staffing levels understand the signs of eating disorders and the pathways
to the way disorders are diagnosed and the wait to be available. Trainee doctors can receive as little as two
treated, too many people who need treatment urgently hours’ training on eating disorders throughout their
do not get it. More than 1 million people in the UK several years of training. We need to invest in services to
suffer from an eating disorder and it is about time they get parity of esteem for mental and physical health,
got the services they deserve. and there are simply not enough beds to deal with the
As Hope Virgo has shown in her excellent Dump The growing demand from those suffering from eating disorders
Scales campaign about the diagnosis of eating disorders, and those who need mental health treatment more
multitudes of people around the country are being generally.
turned away by their GPs as a result of their body mass We need more staff. Those who work for the NHS are
index not being low enough. They are being refused stretched as it is, and we need more staff in frontline
treatment, not because of any psychological assessment, services to help ease the pressure and ensure that treatment
but because their weight is not low enough. Although is effective and quick. We need more and proper support
National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines in our schools. I implore the Government to act on
advise against the use of single measures such as BMI those measures.
to determine whether to offer treatment, that does not
mean it does not happen. As much as I would like to Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am
present case study after case study of young people delighted to call Laura Trott to make her maiden speech.
being turned away from treatment because they were
not considered ill enough, only to go on to do more
2.16 pm
damage to their bodies in the hope of actually receiving
treatment, time does not allow it. But it happens, and Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): Thank you, Madam
that has to change. It is shocking that it has happened Deputy Speaker. Politics has become something of a
once, but we are talking about hundreds of people dirty word in recent years, but during the election
being turned away from services they desperately need. campaign, thousands of activists from all parties throughout
Those first connections with medical professionals the country went out in the cold, the dark and the rain
are so important, not least because of the bravery because they truly believe that their political viewpoint
shown by sufferers in seeking help and talking about can make people’s lives better. Across the House we
their illness, but also because the earlier the treatment is may disagree, often vigorously, on how to do that, but I
administered, the more effective it can be. Identifying truly believe that public service is why we are all here.
problems as early as possible does not just allow people A true example of that public service was my predecessor,
to be treated quickly and more efficiently, but can Sir Michael Fallon. I know Sir Michael was a friend to
mitigate the long-term effects of illness and decrease the many in this place. He served my constituents in Sevenoaks
chances of relapse. Early intervention is the key to and Swanley for 22 years, and those in Darlington
proper treatment for those suffering from eating disorders. before that. He served as a Minister under four Prime
It might mean that the person seeking help no longer Ministers, first under Margaret Thatcher as schools
needs a hospital stay, or that they recover quicker, or Minister, a role he also played under John Major. He
1217 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1218

was responsible for setting up school league tables and I went to a comprehensive and was the first in my
Ofsted—huge leaps forward for the accountability and family to go to university. My grandfather on one side
performance of schools in this country. Sir Michael also was a milkman and, on the other, a doorman at The Sun.
served under David Cameron and my right hon. Friend My grandmother was one of the smartest people I have
the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). Despite his met. She got a scholarship to a good school, but was
unofficial title as Minister for the “Today” programme, not allowed to go as they could not afford the uniform.
he was in fact a Minister in the Department for Business, The thing that changed the fortunes of my family was
Innovation and Skills and in the Department of Energy the great education that my mum and dad received.
and Climate Change. He was latterly Secretary of State That is why I am incredibly proud of the Conservative
for Defence—a role that he both excelled at and relished, party’s legacy in delivering higher school standards, not
although I must say, as the person responsible for just by putting money in with that reform, but by being
running the No. 10 grid at the time, it is possible that he fearless in demanding better for our children, calling
did not always manage to run his announcements past out the soft bigotry of low expectations that my right
No. 10. hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael
Sir Michael was, above all, a strong voice for Sevenoaks Gove) so rightly addressed and that my right hon.
and Swanley constituents, an example I am determined Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin
to follow. Sevenoaks is a wonderful constituency, with a Williamson) is continuing to work on.
vibrant community and excellent schools, and it is over The levelling up in funding that we have promised is
90% green belt—something we must maintain. It is an the key next step, but equally important, as with all
honour to represent the constituency that houses public services, will be the inspection regime making
Chartwell—Winston Churchill’s former home—as well sure that this leads to higher standards being delivered.
as Chevening, the Foreign Secretary’s residence. I am The true test of our system is whether we can improve
very much looking forward to an invitation to visit. the outcomes for those who need it the most. There are
Although the constituency is known for both its more than 2,000 children in care in Kent. We have taken
greenery and transporting much of its population to huge steps forward in addressing their complex needs
work in London, there is significant entrepreneurship, and improving their educational attainment, but we
with 7,000 businesses in Sevenoaks. We are also developing must do more, and I know that this is a Government
some fantastic expertise in wine and beer. Squerryes, who will do so.
Westerham Brewery and the Mount Vineyard are creating I thank the House for listening. Politics done well is
world-class produce and deserve to become international making people’s lives better and I am delighted to be
brands. part of this one nation Conservative Government, who
I also pay tribute to my brilliant local district council, I am certain will give so much to my constituency and
led by Peter Fleming, who has won numerous awards to the country.
for his stewardship, and at a time of great fiscal strain
made Sevenoaks District Council financially independent. 2.22 pm
Equally, Roger Gough, the talented leader of Kent Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): May I start by congratulating
County Council, has done so much to deliver the excellent the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott) on an
standard of schools throughout the constituency. accomplished and thought-provoking speech? I am sure
I should move on to the health service, which is the that she will represent her constituents well.
main topic of debate today. All of us here will have I am very pleased to be able to take part in this
stories of how the NHS has helped us, and we have important debate on health and social care. Earlier
heard some incredibly moving ones from my hon. Friends this week, I chaired a breakfast roundtable organised by
today. My now thriving one-year-old twins were born the Industry and Parliament Trust, bringing together
six weeks early and needed help to breathe and to eat industry representatives, third-sector organisations and
when they were born. I owe the neonatal teams in our parliamentarians to discuss the issue of suicide in the
NHS everything and I will be forever grateful. construction industry. As chair of the all-party group
I worked on maternity care and choice policy when I on suicide and self-harm prevention in the last Parliament,
was a special adviser, and it is something that I will I am familiar with the statistics on the number of lives
continue to speak up for in this place. We must, and I lost to suicide and the statistics that show that middle-aged
know that we will, ensure better care for women in men are particularly at risk. However, even I was shocked
maternity, ensure that pain relief is freely and readily to hear that two construction workers each day die by
available, give women a full choice of options on how suicide and that twice as many die by suicide as die
and where they want to give birth, continue to improve falling from heights.
outcomes for multiple births and deliver on our brilliant A huge amount of work has rightly been done on
promise to extend maternity leave for mothers of premature reducing the physical risks in the construction industry.
babies. I am glad that there are now moves by some employers
It has been striking this week that the focus of maiden and charities such as Mates in Mind to put the same
speeches has been on the importance of social mobility focus on tackling mental health issues and preventing
and education. In speeches by my hon. Friends the suicide in the construction workforce. There are issues
Members for Wantage (David Johnston), for Eastleigh and problems caused by job and financial insecurity,
(Paul Holmes), for East Surrey (Claire Coutinho) and physical stress, working away from home and loneliness.
for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis), among I want to speak about the wider issue of suicide
others, it is truly heartening to witness the breadth of prevention. I am glad that the Minister is in her place
expertise, diversity and interest that our intake takes in to hear this. Last year, the number of deaths by suicide
these issues. I will add my own name to the list of those in the UK rose significantly—an increase of more
speaking out on this topic. than 600 on the previous year. There were 6,507 deaths
1219 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1220

[Liz Twist] In summary, suicide prevention is a public health

issue and should be tackled as such. Low-income middle-
by suicide in 2018. The statistics show that middle-aged aged men are at the highest risk of suicide and we need
men remain the highest risk group, though rates among to tackle and identify the causes of that and develop
young people, too, are rising. This is at a time when accessible services. Levels of self-harm are increasing
there is increased talk of improving mental health services and need to be tackled now. The Government need to
in the NHS plan and a focus on suicide prevention. do much more to address this issue and they need to put
Clearly, the Government need to be doing more for more resources into both the NHS and the local authorities
individual people and at policy and practice level to to reduce the number of people dying by suicide.
reduce those figures.
Suicide is a public health issue. It is startling to know, 2.28 pm
from work done by the University of Manchester in
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): It is always a pleasure
2018, that two thirds of people who take their own lives
to follow the hon. Member for Blaydon (Liz Twist). As
are not in touch with mental health services in the year
somebody who is in the early weeks of their seventh
before they die. A way needs to be found of reaching
Parliament, I can say that I have therefore sat through
out to these people. We know from work by the Samaritans
many waves of maiden speeches over the years. The
and others that socioeconomic factors are often at the
quality of the speeches that we have heard not just
root of the desperation which many people feel. Low
today—we have just heard from my hon. Friend the
incomes, job insecurity, unemployment, housing problems
Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott) and from several
and benefits issues all play their part. Although there is
Members from the Labour Benches—but throughout
a cross-Government suicide prevention work plan, what
this debate over the past few days has been breathtakingly
needs to happen is for each Department to take clear
high. As somebody who has been round the block a few
actions to make a real difference. I understand that the
times, I can say that that is not only very welcome, but
Department for Work and Pensions, for example, has
slightly alarming.
no concrete actions from the plan, but those of us
dealing with constituents on a day-to-day basis will What I want to do is concentrate specifically on the
know that that Department has a real impact on people, social care element of today’s debate. It is a hugely
especially when they are struggling. important part of the wider health agenda and also
obviously vital in its own right. I welcome a number of
Most local authorities do now have suicide prevention elements in the Government’s approach. The first is the
plans, but the Government must do more to make sure recognition of the urgency of the need to solve the issue
that those that do not develop them as a matter of of social care, which has been left on the backburner for
urgency, and that those that do, follow up the written far too long. The second is the desire to work on a
plans with action and share experience and best practice. cross-party basis. I appreciate that that is going to be
I have to say that reducing public health funding is tying challenging for the Opposition Front Benchers over the
the hands of those local authorities that are translating next three months, because they will have other things
those plans into actions and real interventions. on their mind, but for the past 18 months I have been
Some £57 million has been made available for suicide working from the Back Benches with both Labour and
prevention, but those of us who have tried to track it Lib Dem Members. Although none of them is here at
with our local health services have found it difficult to the moment, there are Lib Dem Members who are
identify what specific actions that translates into when interested in this issue. I think that that cross-party
it is spread so thinly that it is almost invisible in the approach is the best one. The third element is the
budget. Local NHS services need to make sure that the Government’s recognition that the system today is incredibly
gaps in services, which too many people can fall through, fragile and needs extra money to tide it over. I am glad
are filled in. For example, there must be a way for that the Government are helping local authorities with
people who are considered “too suicidal” for talking £1 billion in the coming year, but although it may be the
therapies to be able to access secondary mental healthcare world’s most expensive sticking plaster, it is still a sticking
more quickly, and non-clinical services need to be available, plaster, and we all know that we need a much more
too. wholesale approach.
I have already mentioned the fact that middle-aged Many aspects of the problem need solving. There is
men on low incomes have been the highest risk group the question of where the workforce are going to come
for many years. Much more needs to be done to understand from. Home adaptations will be needed so that more
what really works to support this group when they are people can live in their own homes for longer. We will
struggling. Research, again by the Samaritans, shows need the provision of extra places in care homes, where
that the poorest men living in the most deprived areas a shortage is developing. There are also problems when
are 10 times more likely to take their own lives than the it comes to dementia patients. I think the Alzheimer’s
wealthiest living in more affluent areas. We really need Society has sent many Members a briefing for this
some concrete action to address that. debate, and everything it says is very sensible, but beneath
I wish to speak briefly about self-harm. Levels of all these questions is the issue of money. Where is the
self-harm among young people are rising. There is a extra money going to come from? If there were a simple
real stigma around self-harm that stops people seeking solution, a Government would have adopted it a long
help. Most people who self-harm do not go on to take time ago.
their own life, but there is evidence that many people I warn Ministers against reaching for the simplest
who do have self-harmed in the past. It is a sign of deep and easiest solution, because the easy solution is to say,
emotional distress and people who self-harm must have “We’ll make it free and we’ll fund it out of general
access to support to identify why they are feeling so taxation.” That is easy and seductive, because many
distressed. Plans are needed in that area, too. people think social care is free anyway, but that would
1221 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1222

be wrong and unfair. It would be wrong not just because Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am
of the public spending implications, but for intergenerational pleased to call Feryal Clark to make her maiden speech.
fairness. If we fund the solution from the taxation paid
by working-age people, we would be telling 20, 30 or
2.35 pm
40-somethings not only that we are going to tax them to
pay for their own social care if they need it in the future, Feryal Clark (Enfield North) (Lab): I am grateful
which would be fair enough, but that we are also taxing for the opportunity to make my maiden speech in this
them to pay for the social care of their parents’ generation, important debate, and deeply honoured and humbled
which would not be fair. That would be particularly to stand in this great Chamber. As a child refugee who
unfair in this country, where there is a preponderance of arrived in Britain with her family 30 years ago, I could
wealth among the baby boomer generation. So much of never have dreamed that I would have the privilege and
the wealth in this country is tied up in housing, and that responsibility to serve my adopted country as a Member
generation are far more likely to own their own homes of Parliament. I would like again to express my thanks
than their children’s generation. to the people of Enfield North for putting their trust in
me. I am steadfastly committed to being their voice and
James Cartlidge: My right hon. Friend is making a their champion.
brilliant speech, with great passion. Surely the definition I pay tribute to my predecessor Joan Ryan, who
of “sustainable” here is someone in their 20s who is served Enfield North diligently from 1997, with only a
entering the workforce and being asked to pay into a brief gap. Joan was a dedicated public servant, committed
new system believing that the same quality of care will to representing local issues, and a brave and outspoken
be available when they reach their 70s or 80s. That will advocate for causes close to her heart. We share a
not be the case if the model is unsustainable. passion for local government, having both served as
councillors and then as deputy leaders. We both have
Damian Green: My hon. Friend is exactly right, and I concerns over the cuts to our health service, and a
wanted to talk briefly about the various ways in which determination to reduce the harmful impact on constituents
we can achieve a sustainable system. We could have a in Enfield North. I am sure that the whole House will
compulsory social care payment that is made by everyone join me in wishing Joan well in her future endeavours.
of working age and, indeed, beyond working age. That I am the first MP of Turkish Kurdish heritage to be
has been recommended by Select Committees of this elected to Parliament. I am also the first MP of the
House. Alternatively, I would suggest that we could Alevi religion; although there are between 300,000 and
have not a tax, but a hugely desirable saving, based on half a million believers in the UK, they are underrepresented
the model of the pension system, whereby the vast in public office. I also thought I might be arriving as the
majority of people are encouraged to—and do—subscribe shortest MP but I am assured that, at 5 feet, I am a
to auto enrolment pensions, but it is not compulsory. whole half inch taller than my hon. Friend the Member
In that pensions model, we would have the equivalent for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq). I hope that
of a state pension—a universal care entitlement—which we can be an inspiration to vertically challenged women
would have to be better than the current provision of everywhere.
care. On top of that, we would urge millions of people My constituency is varied in every sense of the word.
voluntarily to save for a care supplement, as they do for It is diverse in culture and privilege, and has contrasting
a private pension. That would guarantee them the quality landscapes. Enfield is a bustling market town with rural
of care that they would want in their old age. Of course, spots of natural beauty, and a place where people from
not everyone will be able to make those savings, and the across the world have found their home. We are proudly
system needs to be better for those who cannot contribute home to Forty Hall vineyard, which produces delicious,
towards their own care if they need it in old age, but it is organic English wine, which I can wholeheartedly
essential that we use this massive wealth, particularly recommend to my colleagues who are so inclined. We
among those who are 60 and above; a small sliver could host Enfield Town football club, which is fan-owned
help us to achieve these aims. and an example to local football clubs across the UK. I
At the moment, the equity in housing of those over am personally delighted to boast about having the
the age of 65 is £1.7 trillion. Just a small sliver of that Tottenham Hotspur academy in my constituency; it
would provide a much greater sum of money and truly trains the cream of the football crop, as I am sure
therefore a much more sustainable system. The Prime the whole House will agree.
Minister is absolutely right when he says that nobody I am extremely proud of the diverse population of
should be forced to sell their own home to pay for care. Enfield North. Our diversity is our strength. I am
People have worked for that, and will want to give some committed to representing all the communities who live
of it to future generations, but a small sliver saved into alongside each other in support and solidarity. Some
the sort of insurance system that I am suggesting would 6.8% of my constituents hail from other parts of the
make a huge difference and would put the social care EU, and they can be assured that I will stand up for
system on a sustainable level. them during every step of the Brexit process, fighting
I have a final thought, which puts these ideas in the for their rights to be protected and for promises made to
wider context of today’s debate. If we do not sort this them to be kept.
issue out, the long-term plan for the NHS will not work. There seems to be a tradition in the House of emphasising
The 2020s need to be a decade of hope for the NHS, the contrasts in our constituencies, but Enfield North
and every one nation Conservative will want that to really is a tale of two cities. On the west side, we have the
happen, but to make that real we need to solve the beautiful greenbelt land, numerous golf courses and the
social care crisis. I wish Ministers well in achieving this, prosperous town centre. On the east of the borough,
and urge the House to reject the Opposition amendment. however, it is a different story. The A10 is the dividing
1223 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1224

[Feryal Clark] welcomes those from all parts of the world, whatever
their circumstances, who want to make a contribution
line of wealth in my constituency. We all know that and do the right thing? I congratulate the hon. Lady.
poverty has a knock-on effect on health, and when you When I go around schools, I give the message to everyone
cross the A10, you sadly find that the life expectancy that if they work hard and take advantage of every
there is significantly reduced. The rates of child poverty opportunity that comes to them, they will get on in life.
in the east of the borough are among the highest in the I now have a new poster girl, and I look forward to
country, as are the levels of homelessness. The east is hearing more contributions from her.
crying out for more investment, but Enfield Council’s I was struck by the opening speeches, because it is
budget has been cut by more than £100 million since getting a bit boring that all we hear is, “We’re spending
2010, leaving vital services wanting. this much money” and “Well, it’s not enough and we
My constituency also faces significant challenges would spend more than you.” That will not get the best
from crime. Cuts to youth service budgets and the loss for our NHS. The truth is that whichever side of the
of 240 police officers over the past 10 years have culminated House we sit on, we all want our NHS to be the best it
in far too many tragedies of young lives being lost or can be. Every Government, of whatever colour, will
ruined, to the extent that groups of parents are now always make the NHS a priority when it comes to the
taking it upon themselves to patrol the streets in the Budget. Let us not make this debate all about money.
hope of keeping their children safe. How has it come to When we do, we let those areas in which we are not
that? The Government have made much of their pledge doing as well as we should off the hook. Getting the
to restore 20,000 police officers, and I will campaign for best out of the NHS is not just about money; it is
my borough to get its fair share. about leadership and about behaviour—on the part not
By far the biggest issue for my constituents is the just of medical professionals, but of patients too. We
topic of this debate. Already my constituency has seen a need to make sure that we have honest discussions
steep decline in healthcare over the past 10 years, and about outcomes, what we need to do better, what we
the forecast is no brighter for the next. Some 10% of GP expect from everyone and what patients can legitimately
practices have been recorded as closing since 2013. GPs expect from the NHS.
are desperately overworked, with the number of patients That was very much part of the discussion during the
having risen by 23,000 since 2015, but with no rise in the general election. I remember knocking on doors and
number of GPs to treat them. Parts of my constituency, being asked, “But can we trust you on the NHS?” I
such as Enfield Chase ward, do not have a single GP would reply, “Conservatives are not aliens from the
surgery. planet Zog who never get ill. We depend on the NHS as
In 2010, Chase Farm Hospital was downgraded, much as anyone else. Why would we ever engage in an
leading to the loss of its A&E facility, maternity unit act of self-harm by not doing our best for it?” We can be
and other specialist departments. My constituents now clear that under this Government the NHS will have the
have to go elsewhere for medical emergencies, leading to investment that the country can best afford, and we will
pressure on neighbouring hospitals in Barnet and on focus on making sure that it delivers the best service
North Middlesex Hospital. Spending per head on healthcare possible.
in Enfield has reduced by 16% since 2015, which puts The biggest challenge facing the NHS is not money.
the symptoms of dereliction in our health service into The workforce remains a considerable challenge. While
context. we carry on talking about imports and the need for
The last bastion of support locally is the urgent care more doctors and nurses, we will continue to feed
centre in Chase Farm Hospital, but its survival is not perverse behaviours and make the labour market in the
certain. I hope the Minister can assure me that the NHS dysfunctional. Medical staff know that they can
urgent care centre in Chase Farm Hospital will not have earn more as locums, so we have a massive vacancy rate
its hours reduced, and that my constituents will not and sky-rocketing salary bills, because of the choices
experience any further decline in healthcare. people make. We need to do more to address that issue.
I hope that I have managed to shed a small amount of Much healthcare can be delivered by those who are
light on my constituency in all of its glory and challenge. not medical professionals. We need to look at where the
I am ambitious for Enfield, and I believe it has great NHS can commission services from the voluntary sector
things to come, but we need the support of our Government and how that could work. It is not just about doctors
to see our young people flourish, our businesses thrive and nurses: it is about a more holistic approach to
and our healthcare system repaired. I pledge to my wellbeing. I would really welcome it if we could move
constituents to be their persistent champion, and what I the political debate away from pounds towards patients.
lack in height, I will make up for in voice. My right hon. Friend the Member for South West
Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) spoke passionately about patient
2.42 pm safety. Again, we need to focus on outcomes, and no
one did more than he did to meet that challenge. When
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): It is a pleasure he became Secretary of State for Health, my constituency
to follow the maiden speech of the hon. Member for had a failing hospital, but thanks to the measures that
Enfield North (Feryal Clark). She has just proved that he put in to improve performance, we now have a
what she lacks in height she makes up for in her energetic hospital that provides the service that we deserve. We
performance, and I have no doubt that she will give the should not be shy about challenging poor performance.
Treasury Bench considerable challenge in the future. So The excellent doctors, nurses and others delivering medical
many firsts, but I must congratulate her specifically on services know when things are failing and would welcome
being the first refugee Member of Parliament. Does the challenge to the leadership of their institutions to
that not show that this country is open and liberal, and make them better.
1225 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1226

We need to do more to help more vulnerable patients. the London Eye, the National Theatre, the Young Vic,
The public services do very well for the pointy-elbowed the Southbank Centre, the Kia Oval cricket ground,
middle classes who are able to fight for what they want, and the home of MI6.
but the test of a society is how we treat the most I am pleased to be making my maiden speech today
vulnerable. In that regard, I welcome the commitment in this part of the debate on the Queen’s Speech because,
to reform the Mental Health Act 1983. That Act was a like many hon. Members in this House, health and
product of an era in which people with mental ill-health social care is very close to my heart. My late mother
were an inconvenience to be managed. I am pleased to suffered from a disease called sickle cell anaemia, and in
say that we have moved on very far from that, and we later life she developed renal failure and had to attend
will introduce reforms that will empower patients to dialysis three times a week. The average life expectancy
look after their own recovery. We should be grateful to for sickle patients is between 42 and 47 years old, and
people who have been through detention and shared many experience complications with childbirth. My
their distressing experiences to make things better. mother was a fighter and she instilled in my sisters and
I can see that you are rightly looking at the clock, me the values of standing up for what you believe in.
Madam Deputy Speaker, but I want to mention one My mother also taught me how to make jollof rice.
final challenge in an area where, as a Minister, I was For any of you who have not tasted that, I want to put
disappointed not to be able to do more—the issue of on the record now that Nigerian jollof rice is the best.
people with autism and learning disabilities being detained As a young girl, I would watch my mother in pain going
in institutions that, frankly, are doing them harm. I was through a sickle crisis, but somehow she would still find
horrified to see a report on “Sky News” only this week the strength to help my sisters and me get ready for
that showed that we have lost 10 people in the past year school and support us with our homework. I know the
in those institutions. That is a mark of failure of the real value of the NHS. Without the amazing care of the
state: families entrusted their loved ones to that care haematology and renal team at King’s College Hospital,
and then lost them. I hope very much that we will and my mother’s faith in God, she would not have lived
redouble our efforts to make sure that we are not to the age of 60.
putting people into inappropriate care settings and are
giving them the tools to be able to live outside those St Thomas’s Hospital in my constituency is also close
institutions. to my heart. I never imagined that almost five years to
the day, as I was literally pacing up and down the
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am maternity ward, looking over the river, trying to coerce
delighted to call Florence Eshalomi to make her maiden my daughter to come out, I would now be sitting in this
speech. Parliament fighting for funding for our hard-working
doctors and nurses.
2.48 pm The NHS is struggling to cope with the increase in
demand for health and social care. The A&E department
Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): Thank at St Thomas’s is treating more patients than ever
you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased to stand before. Attendance has risen by two thirds since 2018.
here, and feel humbled, to make my maiden speech as The staff are now seeing 600 patients on their busiest
the new Member of Parliament for the area that I have days compared with an average of 420 when the new
called home all my life. I want to thank the constituents emergency department opened in 2018. So what is
in Vauxhall for voting for me and placing their trust driving this increase? A significant number of patients
in me. are presenting with serious mental health problems,
My predecessor represented Vauxhall for 30 years. As there is a high number of homeless people with complex
many right hon. and hon. Members in this House will health needs, and the number of children attending the
know, she was one of the most vocal supporters of Evelina Hospital A&E continues to rise. In November
Brexit. But Kate was much more than just a vocal and December, it had a record attendance, with 130 children
Brexiteer—she was a diligent, hard-working constituency seen in one single day—more than double the number
MP who fought very hard for her constituents. I hope to seen in four years. With an ageing population and more
build on her work locally and I pledge to represent the complex needs adding so many cost pressures to the
residents of Vauxhall to the best of my ability. budgets, I hope that this Government will make sure
My constituency is home to a diverse community. that increasing funding to the NHS is a top priority.
Across our schools in Vauxhall, including my old primary That is why I will be voting to support Labour’s amendment
school of St Helen’s in Brixton, there are over 50 languages later this afternoon.
spoken by children of migrants from all parts of the I got involved in politics to give a voice to people who
world who have made this area their home. We have feel that politics is not for them or that politics does not
vibrant Portuguese, Jamaican, Ghanaian, Ecuadorian matter. I have spent a large part of my career working
and Italian communities who run a number of small with young people, including the young people who
businesses and restaurants in the area. Vauxhall also society is quick to demonise and stereotype. Last Tuesday,
has a proud history of an active LGBTQ community. I I was one of the first people on the scene following a
would like to place on the record my thanks for the stabbing incident that took place just over the border of
contribution of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern in supporting my constituency. I made the frantic phone call to the
and providing a safe space for our friends there. I am emergency services, as I and two other members of the
also proud to highlight the work of the 1997 Labour public tried to stem the flow of blood from the young
Government, who broke the Thatcherite legacy that boy who had been stabbed. I later found out that that
hurt so many men and women in Vauxhall so badly young boy was 15 years old. I was scared. I was sad,
through section 28. My constituency also has many because some members of the public walked past. We
famous national landmarks and buildings, including cannot allow ourselves to become desensitised to the
1227 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1228

[Florence Eshalomi] Across the Chamber, we agree that mental health is a

priority, but again, where is the ambition? Dealing with
issue of knife crime. Young people in my constituency detention is crucial, but we must also look at parity of
are being groomed for violence, and there has been an esteem. It is not defined. We talk about mental health
increase in fatal stabbings over recent years. representing something like 23% of the burden on the
I firmly believe that, to tackle this issue, we need to NHS, but how is that measured? Is that really the
understand the root causes of the problem. Evidence totality of the issue? We need to define parity of esteem,
from various commissions, including the recent work be clear how we will measure the need and address that
led by my hon. Friends the Members for Croydon need as a matter of urgency. We talk about achieving
Central (Sarah Jones) and for Lewisham, Deptford parity of esteem over the next 10 years, but that seems
(Vicky Foxcroft), shows that the vast majority of young an incredibly long time. I would like to see a proper
people involved in knife crime have suffered childhood plan, and I would like to see parity considerably sooner
trauma. Mental health services for our young people than 10 years from now.
have not been adequately funded, and I hope that the There was an extremely well-made speech a little
Government will make a commitment to reverse the earlier about wellbeing. For so long, we have talked
cuts and support our young people at risk. about the NHS and health, but actually we talk about
In this Parliament, I will continue to speak up for illness, not about wellness. When we talk about Public
investment in youth services and creating positive Health England, that is not the only part of trying to
opportunities for our young people, so that they do not ensure wellbeing. Professor Dame Sally Davies, the
see selling drugs as a way to make money. I will continue former chief medical officer, has said that wellness is as
to speak up and challenge the Home Office to invest in important as dealing with illness. I would like to see that
our police service, so that it has the resources to catch fully addressed, and I very much hope that those on the
the people who continue to exploit our vulnerable young Front Bench are listening and will take that seriously.
people. And I will continue to champion and speak up The assets that we have to address our problems are
for the young women and girls who are facing sexual not infinite. We have some wonderful people, we have
exploitation. The people of Vauxhall have placed their some wonderful infrastructure—buildings and hospitals—
trust in me, and I pledge to represent their interests and and we have some wonderful technology.
concerns to the best of my ability for as long as I am in
this House. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): My hon.
Friend is making a really strong speech. Talking of
2.56 pm assets, in my constituency we have community hospitals
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): That was in Honiton, Axminster and Seaton, which could be
a very thought-provoking, emotional and personal used to much greater effect to take some of the pressures
contribution from the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence off the acute hospitals. Honiton does good work with
Eshalomi), who I very much welcome to this place. She Ottery St Mary and others in the neighbouring seat of
made some very important points about the NHS and East Devon. Can we actually get these assets working
knife crime, and I look forward to her working with all better for us? I welcome what the Secretary of State said
of us in this House to deliver exactly what she rightly in his speech earlier.
says we must. I congratulate her.
It is right that health and care are a substantial part Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend makes a very
of this Gracious Speech, but it must be about action, good point, and I was very pleased to hear the Secretary
not just words and promises. Across the House, whichever of State say that community hospitals were valuable.
party we represent, we must deliver on what our constituents We must have a fundamental rethink of the infrastructure
need and want and what we have promised them. I and look at what we really need. In rural areas, where
welcome the inquiry into social care. My concern is that we cannot get to the best stroke centre, say, we must
this has been promised by Governments for years, and think seriously about how we use or reuse such facilities.
it seems to be taking forever and a day. This is urgent—it
cannot wait. We must talk cross-party and look at the Dr Whitford: Talking about assets, do we not also
work that has been done, rather than do it all over need to sweat the assets that are in the community? In
again. Let us look at what works and does not work, Scotland, we have had community pharmacies with
take the good and move forward. I would like to see a minor ailment services since 2005, and we now have the
Bill on social care in this Parliament. same for optometrists, to the point that only a tiny
percentage of people ever need to go to A&E if they
Integration is another key issue. Members across the
have an eye injury, a red eye or another problem.
House have pushed for integration, and we need to
make it happen. NHS England has proposed legislation
to unblock the things preventing this from working. I Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Lady—I almost said
am pleased to see the Bill to implement the NHS my hon. Friend because we share some common issues,
long-term plan, but I would like it to be more ambitious. and she is a great spokesman from the SNP Benches—is
It is right to address the commissioning challenge, but absolutely right. I think we would actually all agree that
the Bill does not address the overlapping regulatory we need to look at the people who deliver these services
system, the conflicting accountability between health and at the breadth we have, and involve them all
and social care or any of the legal relationships. Where appropriately.
are we with sustainability and transformation partnerships We must also look at the new professions with the
and integrated care systems? They have no legal status, new associate levels. Physician associates take a huge
yet we look to them to deliver a solution on integration. part of the burden, and have a great career across the
More must be done, and we must be bold. whole of primary and secondary care. Let us be innovative
1229 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1230

and creative, and provide the training, the financial and the work done by his department on this disease.
support and the respect that I think many people working They are fighting vascular disease with their hands tied
in our health system feel they do not necessarily receive behind their backs. They are battling staffing shortages,
from this place, although clearly they feel they have it increased demand for services and funding restraints,
from their patients. IT has always been the call of the and all without the updated critical equipment and
Secretary of State, but again, let us be more imaginative. facilities that they need. It cannot be right that vascular
It is not just about communication; it is also about disease patients who live in Scotland have access to
diagnosis and the delivery of care. There is much that more advanced equipment than people who live in
can be done. England. We are at a critical juncture, and the Government
The Queen’s Speech refers to a medicines and medical need to take action quickly.
devices Bill, which it is absolutely critical to get right. I I therefore have two simple asks, the first of which
am very keen to look at the speed of getting medicines goes to every Member of this Parliament. I am proud to
to patients, but we need to do more than deal with clinical be taking over from the hon. Member for St Ives (Derek
trials. There is much that has to be done with regard to Thomas) as chair of the all-party group on vascular
the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and venous disease. I invite Members from across the
and NICE and their systems. I would like to see the House to join that all-party group, and to find out
approach to access to medicines be more ambitious. about the disease and how it impacts on their constituents.
Finally—I am getting the evil eye, I think, Madam Together we can make the strongest possible case to the
Deputy Speaker—I am very pleased that in the NHS Government for more funding, and a better staffing
Funding Bill we are now committing to enshrine increased plan to deal with this crisis.
spending in law. My concern is: do we have the right Secondly, will the Minister meet me and Dr Dan
level of spending, how will we be measuring need and is Carradice to discuss the particular challenges at Hull
that spending matching the increase in demand? That is Royal Infirmary, and the workforce requirements,
a good promise, but it needs considerably more work. equipment and funding that are needed to prevent the
This Government have done a good job in setting out crisis in vascular disease from becoming even deeper?
some of the key issues and priorities that we as a House The Government must make this an urgent priority
need to address, but we must look at the detail, we must because as the doctor said, time is tissue, and we must
implement this and we must deliver. act before it is too late.

3.3 pm 3.7 pm
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): When I
(Lab): I think all of us here have had those moments sat in the Chamber earlier, I was not certain that I was
when the injustice of what we see continues to haunt us in the right place. As you will know, Madam Deputy
ever afterwards. Last October, I had such an experience Speaker, we are not used to so many people listening to
when I visited the vascular service at Hull Royal Infirmary speeches—and what brilliant speeches they have been,
and spoke to NHS staff as well as amputee patients particularly from the new entrants in the House. I say to
with vascular disease and their families. Hon. Members newly elected Members of Parliament: this will not last.
may not know much about vascular disease, so forgive As we get further into the Session, trust me, it will not
me while I explain briefly. This disease results from the last.
build-up of fatty deposits in people’s arteries, which I thought back to my maiden speech in 2005, when I
interrupts the flow of blood around the body. Vascular made a promise to my constituents that I would go on
disease in the legs causes pain and muscle wastage, and and on and on about the acute problems at the hospital
the dead leg tissue can leave unhealable wounds that in my constituency. There was a bit of politics. I am not
become ulcerous. My horror at learning about the pain making a maiden speech, so I can be a little more
suffered by patients of vascular disease, as the tissue in controversial than some of my colleagues here today.
their legs slowly dies through lack of oxygenated blood, The Labour party made the decision—in those days it
cannot be understated. When I was younger, someone was the Minister’s decision—to close the acute facilities
very close to me suffered from the same disease and an at Hemel Hempstead Hospital. Acute facilities at St
amputation, and I grew up seeing not only their suffering, Albans had already been closed, and promises were
but that of their loved ones and family around them. made that those facilities would always be looked after
During my visit to the hospital I was shown images of at Hemel Hempstead Hospital, which was fairly new.
foot ulcers, and the surgeon explained, in a phrase that We are a new town, so this was not about dilapidation.
has stayed in my mind ever since, that “time is tissue”, It was a fairly new hospital, but the decision was made
and that the development of a foot ulcer from something to move those facilities to the centre of Watford, next to
so small into something that requires amputation can Watford football club.
be as short as 48 hours. My horror only increased when I have nothing against Watford football club. As you
I learned of the north-south divide, with major amputation may have heard, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am an
rates being 30% higher in the north of England than the ardent Spurs supporter, so this weekend will be very
south. The situation in Hull is even worse. Overall, difficult for me as the Spurs play Watford. I want every
people in Hull are 46% more likely to need a major success for the local clubs, but we have a Victorian
amputation, and 16% more likely to need a partial hospital next to that football club, in a very difficult
amputation, compared with the all-England average. traffic area of Watford, and it is well over 100 years old.
Staff at Hull Royal Infirmary are incredible. They are In the modern world we live in, would we dream of
hardworking and dedicated, and I am in awe of their building a hospital in the middle of a town, next to a
work. I particularly wish to mention Dr Dan Carradice football club? Of course we would not. So I was simply
1231 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1232

[Sir Mike Penning] future of my hospital and the future provision of care in
my constituency. We want a new hospital on a greenfield
thrilled—this is where I am going to get controversial site. This Government, I believe, could fund that.
on my own Treasury Front Bench—when it was announced
that in south-west Hertfordshire, in my part of the
world, we would get one the first six new hospitals—six 3.13 pm
new hospitals were announced; five new hospitals and Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP): It
one refurbishment—guess where, Madam Deputy Speaker: will come as no surprise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker,
next to Watford Hospital. that I intend to dwell on health and social care issues as
We can moan and moan at Ministers, but the difficulty they relate to my constituents in my own country of
these days is that we have devolved so much power to Scotland.
local health authorities. That sounds good on the tin, Before I do so, however, I should like to remind the
but having oversight from local, democratically elected House that just because edicts and statements are issued
people is really very difficult. The clinical commissioning from the Government Benches, it does not mean that
groups should listen and in our community they are not they are factually correct. Indeed, I must say that the
particularly listening. West Hertfordshire Hospitals NHS pejorative language used by Conservative Members,
Trust is absolutely determined that this is where they including those representing Scottish seats, when discussing
want to build £400 million of new facilities: in the Scotland and its SNP Government, is unjust, mostly
middle of Watford, nowhere near the community it fallacious and paints a picture of healthcare in Scotland
should be serving—apart from the people of Watford, that neither I, my family nor my constituents recognise.
to be fair. In Scotland, the SNP Government are carrying on with
We continue to campaign. We have not given up. We the day job and have abolished prescription charges,
do not want to reopen the facilities at Hemel Hempstead which helps many folk in Scotland. To know that they
Hospital and we do not really have the land available in can have the medication they need without worry is a
St Albans. What we have said is this: let us build a new fine thing, and it can save precious NHS resources
hospital for south-west Hertfordshire. That is what we further down the line.
would do today; that is what the money in the new Satisfaction with the NHS in Scotland remains high.
hospitals plan would do. To be fair, the Secretary of In 2018, 95% of patients rated their overall experience
State has seen me and he has asked his officials to look of cancer care positively. [Interruption.] The hon. Member
into what the cost-evaluation would be. We have had on the Government Front Bench may shake his head,
costings of £1 billion for a greenfield site put out on but I can vouch for that, as my husband had cancer
local radio, interestingly by the Mayor of Watford, and treatment in Scotland. Some 86% of patients rated their
we have had costings from other parts of the country as full in-patient experience positively, and 83% rated the
low as £375 million. So something is seriously going overall care provided by their GP surgery as good or
wrong between the costings. excellent. Scotland’s patient safety record is among the
We have got into a situation where the only way we best in the world. Over the past five years there has been
can fight this, believe it or not, is to take the trust to a decreasing year-on-year trend in the rate of MRSA
court. There is a lack of accountability—I have called and C. diff infection.
for debates in this House on that for years now. The
Scotland led the UK by introducing a mental health
only way we can fight the fact that the trust has only put
waiting times target. In the Scottish Government’s 2019-20
in a bid for refurbishment of the Watford site is to take
programme, the budget for mental health increased by
it to court and challenge it under judicial review. I have
£15.3 million, up by nearly 22%. This is the first Government
a fantastic community. We have raised the money. We
in Scotland to have a ministerial post dedicated to
will go to court. But is it not crazy that here I am
mental health. The SNP is always looking to improve
praising, and I will be voting for, the Queen’s Speech
services for all Scots, which is why the Government are
and against Labour’s amendment, when I am saying
undertaking a review of mental health legislation in
that the £400 million being offered by the Government
Scotland. The review aims to improve the rights and
is going to the wrong place?
protections of persons who may be subject to existing
I listened deeply to the former Secretary of State, my legislation, and to remove barriers to those caring for
right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey their health and welfare.
(Jeremy Hunt), when he said that we have to admit it
sometimes when we make mistakes in the NHS, whether This Tory Government aim to emulate Scotland by
they are clinical mistakes, mistakes on Primodos—another abolishing parking charges at hospitals. Since 2008,
thing I like going on about in the Chamber, although I when the SNP Government abolished charges in NHS
do not have the time to do so this evening—or the fact car parks, patients, visitors and staff have saved over
that we do not have prescribed medical cannabis free at £39 million.
the point of delivery to our children when a consultant The Nuffield Trust, an independent health think-tank,
says it should be prescribed. The only way we can fight has said that although the 3.2% increase in NHS England’s
this at the moment is to go to the courts. I am pleased budget is welcome, it must not detract from the reality
with the Secretary of State on this, and I know that this that the English health service cannot adequately function
will all be fed back. There was supposed to be a letter to or improve without significant investment in NHS capital
me in the last couple of days from the people looking at and the workforce. Perhaps NHS England, through
the funding. That has not arrived yet, so—hint, hint, adequate Government funding, could emulate NHS
Front Bench—let us get the letter to me. Scotland and offer the same bursary to student nurses
I do not want to go to court and the community do as we do in Scotland, where from next September nursing
not want to go to court, but I was sent here to fight for students will benefit from a £10,000 bursary, which is
something. The biggest issue in my constituency is the double the proposal for nurses training in England.
1233 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1234

Of course, nursing students receive free tuition in champion. My predecessor served the constituency well
Scotland. The benefits of this policy are easy to see, for 14 years, and I thank her particularly for her good
with nursing student numbers in Scotland increasing work on maintenance fees for new build estates.
for seven years in a row. Compare that with a 30% drop All 650 MPs in this place are convinced that they
in applications in England. How difficult will it be for represent the best, most beautiful constituency, and I
this Government to achieve their promise of 50,000 extra am incredibly happy to be the one who is right. The
nurses, or is it actually 19,000 fewer nurses? I am not home of the Prince Bishops, with over 70 communities
sure; I am a bit confused about that figure. Perhaps I am across 365 square miles, we have a proud history of
not the only one. railways, mining, farming, and football. I hope to add
On the question of social care, in 2011 the Scottish to the latter by joining my hon. Friend the Member for
Government became the first in the UK to pay the real Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) on the
living wage to staff, including all NHS workers. In 2002, parliamentary women’s football team. With 10 amateur
free personal care for the elderly was introduced by the cup wins, Bishop Auckland football club also stepped
Labour-Lib Dem Executive, and I give them credit for in to help Manchester United to fulfil its fixtures following
that, but that was against the wishes of the Westminster the heartbreaking Munich air disaster in 1958, proving
parties, which used it to cut social security funding for that when we work together, we work best. West Auckland,
older people in Scotland—as ever, Westminster never just down the hill from where I live, even represented
misses an opportunity to cut Scotland’s budget. Great Britain at the inaugural world cup in 1909—and
[Interruption.] Now the SNP, in government, has extended in 1909, the Sir Thomas Lipton trophy was indeed
free personal care to all those under 65 who need it, and coming home. As we will prove on the 31st of this
from the next Parliament the Scottish Government will month, that was not the last time we went to Europe
work to abolish social care charges. [Interruption.] and got the result that we wanted.
As in football, the Bishop Auckland constituency is a
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. tale of two halves: the beautiful rolling landscapes of
The hon. Lady must be heard. There are indeed a lot of rural life to the west in Teesdale, and the grafting
Members here this afternoon, but we will have no noise. industrial towns and villages to the east. The diversity
in landscape is matched by the diversity in the challenges
Marion Fellows: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. faced by the different communities. In Teesdale we need
The Westminster Government would do well to look to protect our rural communities, with an emphasis on
at and emulate many of the forward-looking, fair, equitable the farming heroes who help to feed our nation and
and progressive policies that originate in Scotland. One preserve our environment. I will work even more closely
example is that, through the Social Care (Self-directed with Upper Teesdale Agricultural Support Services to
Support) (Scotland) Act 2013, everyone who uses social be a true champion for our farmers and to create a
care services can now control their individual care budget. thriving rural economy.
The Prime Minister promised to I will also be campaigning to improve our rural
“fix the crisis in social care once and for all … with a clear plan we broadband and 4G coverage, and I am delighted that
have prepared”. the Government have committed themselves to eradicating
The UK Government have failed to propose a Bill, a notspots. Connectivity, in every sense, is at the centre of
clear timetable or costings in their manifesto to address my local plan, and at the centre of Government.
the social care crisis in England. The Tories have been in In the east of the constituency, in an all too familiar
government for a decade and overseen the social care story, our high streets are under pressure, but the
crisis. According to Age UK, there has been a £160 million Government are listening, and I am chuffed once more
cut in public spending on older people’s care in the last that Bishop Auckland will benefit from both the towns
five years, despite rapidly rising demand. About 1.2 million fund and the future high streets fund. Local transport is
people over the age of 65 did not receive the care also an issue, and I have been nagging my right hon.
support that they needed, and cuts have increased the Friend the Secretary of State for Transport incessantly
pressure on unpaid carers. about the long-awaited Toft Hill bypass. We must also
I encourage the Secretary of State to look to and secure the repair work that is needed on Whorlton
adopt the innovative measures that the Scottish Government Bridge, not least because the community faces a dramatic
have introduced in Scotland, to benefit those who live in detour which has forced the closure of the local pub,
England and use its NHS and social care provision. but also because of its cultural value in being the oldest
suspension bridge in Britain that still relies on its original
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I am chainwork.
delighted to call Dehenna Davison to make her maiden One issue that unites the whole constituency is our
speech. local healthcare provision. My local priority is fighting
for improved health services at Bishop Auckland Hospital,
3.20 pm with the ultimate goal of restoring our A&E. I have
been banging that drum here in Parliament non-stop
Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): Let me since I was elected, and I have no plans to let up just yet.
start by paying tribute to my incredible new colleagues, So I say to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State
who have made some inspiring speeches and have set for Health and Social Care: I am sorry, but he will be
the bar so incredibly high. No pressure there, then! seeing an awful lot more of me. Despite the rhetoric
There is only one word that sums up how I feel about from many Opposition Members, the NHS is at the
being on these green Benches, and that word is “chuffed”. very heart of the Conservative party, and I welcome
I am chuffed to be here, and to have been granted the the record NHS funding from this Government and the
opportunity to be the Bishop Auckland constituency’s bold step to enshrine that funding in law.
1235 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1236

[Dehenna Davison] community that I represent in Newcastle. Any additional

funding that is to be enshrined in law as part of the
The NHS has a special place in my heart, although multi-year funding settlement is of course welcome.
unfortunately my best experiences of it were in times of However, I worry that the gesture might be more about
great sadness. It was the incredible NHS staff who politics than about dealing with the real challenges that
helped to bring smiles to my nan’s face during the last our NHS faces. Many of us agree that one area in which
days of her battle with cancer, and it was NHS paramedics we need substantial answers is social care. NHS leaders
and doctors who fought valiantly to save my dad’s life. warn us that hospitals are being overwhelmed by people
If any of those staff are watching today, I thank you who have nowhere else to go, and any additional funding
from the bottom of my heart. I was 13 years old when a risks being wasted because of this issue.
man who later admitted to being high on drink and The Conservative manifesto has pledged to build
drugs walked across a pub and ended my dad’s life in cross-party consensus on a long-term solution, and if
seconds with one single punch. As a result, I spent my the Government are serious about doing that, I absolutely
early teenage years in and out of court cases, tribunals, welcome it because I believe that that is where the
and meetings with lawyers and the police. While I was solution lies. There are good reasons to be optimistic.
insistent that I would not let a dark event in my past There is already broad agreement on what a deal would
negatively determine what happened to my future, that look like, and we all know how important social care is
is a life that I would not want other young people to to our constituents. Indeed, if we cannot put adult
have. Here in this place, I want to champion policy that social care on a sustainable financial footing, then the
helps to reduce violence by educating disadvantaged frail, the elderly, and the most vulnerable and their
young people, rehabilitating offenders and giving our families will pay the price, and the public will not
police the resources they need to do their job. The forgive us. Let us make a start on building that consensus
police officers that I encountered as a young teenager to fix social care now.
were exemplary, particularly Karen Cocker, our family
liaison officer, who I am proud to say I am still in touch Moving on to education, the idea of levelling up
with today. school funding by increasing minimum per-pupil funding
Losing my dad had a profound impact on me. He was will in fact disproportionately benefit schools with less
an incredible source of inspiration. In many ways, he challenging intakes. Because they benefit less from the
was the very embodiment of blue collar Conservative disadvantage elements in the funding formula, most
values. He was a grafter, a self-employed stonemason disadvantaged schools are already over the new threshold.
who taught me the value of small enterprise as a force Some beneficiaries no doubt need extra funding, but
for good. He was incredibly aspirational, often jokingly there must be a better way of ensuring that it reaches
citing Del Boy’s great line: them than the regressive method designed by the
Government. I note that the Education Policy Institute
“This time next year, Rodney, we’ll be millionaires!”
said that the north-east will benefit the least of any
He believed that, above all else, a person’s duty was to region outside London despite the fact that we have
leave a better world for future generations, delivering consistently had the lowest performance in England on
that through nothing short of hard work. Growing up the Department for Education’s attainment 8 and progress 8
with my dad’s values, I became the first in my family to outcome measures. Our children’s potential is being
go to university and, weirdly enough, the first in my wasted, and we cannot let that happen.
family to take a seat in this place as well. I was one of
the lucky ones, but a child’s opportunities should not be The north of England, the north-east in particular,
determined by luck or by their postcode. also suffers from a persistent and growing productivity
I am proud to be a member of this Conservative gap with the rest of the UK. I have long made my
party, which has levelling up and spreading opportunity concerns known that leaving the EU will make the gap
at the very core of its ethos. Improving social mobility is more difficult to close, given that the evidence indicates
not only a passion of mine; it feels to me that it is my that the north-east will be hardest hit by any form of
very duty to my constituents and to my country. That is Brexit. However, an important part of the answer for
why one of my key local priorities is improving job tackling the north-south productivity gap while also
opportunities by setting up a youth employment champions tackling the climate crisis lies in having the best transport
scheme. A wise man called Dumbledore said: connectivity. The inclusion of HS2 phase 2a in the
“It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to Queens Speech is therefore good news, and I hope we
be.” can now make progress on getting HS2’s benefits to the
Grafting as hard as I can to help my constituents to north.
grow to their full potential is not just a priority; it is my I take a special interest in the east coast main line,
duty. which I travel up and down every week, but my interest
is not purely self-motivated. Upgrading it is essential
3.28 pm for the north-east, not least to ensure that it also benefits
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) from HS2, which is why I established the all-party
(Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Bishop parliamentary group on the east coast main line. The
Auckland (Dehenna Davison) on her excellent and powerful group will be re-established, and I encourage new Members
maiden speech. As a fellow MP representing the north-east to join it. We urgently need to improve capacity, so we
and as an advocate of the One Punch Can Kill campaign, need HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail, and I completely
I am sure there are many challenges that we will face reject any suggestion that this is an either/or choice. I
together. call on HS2 Ltd, the Government, Network Rail and
I rise to talk about the NHS and social care, but I Transport for the North to work together to produce
will also talk about other aspects of this Gracious credible, timely and properly funded plans to upgrade
Speech that will either affect, or not affect enough, the the east coast main line so that the north-east can fully
1237 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1238

benefit from the introduction of high-speed rail. After Halliwell. [HON. MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] You have to
decades of under-investment, we have an opportunity give a whoop for that. We have our own boxing heavyweight
to transform rail capacity and connectivity in the north-east champion of the world in Anthony Joshua. We have our
and attract investment, boost skills and opportunity, own political heavyweight, too, in the dearly departed Mo
level up communities across the north, and create sustainable Mowlam. And we have the England football manager with
transport infrastructure. We need to take it. the best waistcoats in the world, Mr Gareth Southgate.
Overall, the Gracious Speech was light on detail, but As a science fiction fan myself, it is particularly
there are some causes for celebration. I welcome the exciting that we have our very own member of Doctor
domestic abuse Bill, which is an opportunity to drive Who’s time-travelling Tardis team in Mr Bradley Walsh.
cultural change, and, as the TUC said, transform Many Members will know that Bradley Walsh hosts a
“domestic abuse from a criminal justice issue to one that is famous game show called “The Chase”, in which he
‘everyone’s business’, tackled by health and social care, housing, battles with “The Beast”Mark Labbett. As a Conservative,
education and employers”. I feel that in this election we battled our own “Chase”
I also welcome the inclusion of the animal welfare and and our own beast—the beast of socialism—and we
sentencing Bill and pay tribute to the work of Anna won. We defeated that beast.
Turley, the former Member for Redcar, who campaigned
tirelessly on the issue after a particularly horrific case in One of the most world-famous parts of Watford is a
her constituency came to light. There are some great magical place, and it was mentioned earlier in a brilliant
opportunities for the north east if the Government maiden speech: Warner Brothers studio and the Harry
make good on their promises, and I for one will be Potter tour. Given his love of buses, I would like to
watching closely to see that they follow through. invite the Prime Minister to visit the studio, because we
have neither a boring single-decker bus nor a boring
Several hon. Members rose— double-decker bus; we have the world-famous Harry
Potter triple-decker “Knight Bus.” Who can beat that?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order.
It gives me great pleasure to call Dean Russell to make Watford is not just a hub for entertainment. We are
his maiden speech. also a massive magnet for investment and business. We
have several UK headquarters. We have Hilton hotels,
3.33 pm so people have somewhere to sleep. We have TJX, the
home of TK Maxx—looking around the Chamber, I
Dean Russell (Watford) (Con): Thank you, Madam am sure everyone has recently bought their clothes from
Deputy Speaker. It is wonderful to see you in the Chair. there. We have a place to drink in JD Wetherspoon, and
I am incredibly humbled to be here. As a working-class we have a place to win millions and to help millions
lad, to be sitting on these Benches is an enormous more in Camelot and the lottery. We also have our very
honour, but to be sitting among so many other working- own pharmacy, a fabulous business called Sigma Pharma.
class Conservatives is just as fabulous. I must thank the Of course, every Member will want to visit our incredible
people of Watford for putting me in this wonderful market, our high street and the Intu centre for a most
place and for giving me the honour and the opportunity delectable day out.
to hopefully make a change in this country.
First, however, I want to pay tribute to my predecessor. Madam Speaker—sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker; I
Everyone who knows him will know that he works promoted you—at heart I am really just a family man,
tirelessly and is a true gentleman: Mr Richard Harrington. and it is my family who inspire me. My working-class
When I first became a candidate, people would say to roots may have defined who I am, but my family are the
me, “Dean, you’ve got big shoes to fill.” At first I ones who drive me forward. I give credit to my parents
thought it was a dig at my height, but I soon found it and my sister for all the work they have done over the
was because of Richard’s amazing legacy and the work years and for the support they have given me. I am sure
he has done for the people of Watford. Today’s debate it is the same for many Members. Our families make
focuses on health, and there are so many things I could such a difference to our lives and keep us grounded. In
talk about—from his jobs fairs to the work he has done that sense, my wife and my daughter truly are my
on social housing and tenancies—but I will specifically beating heart and soul.
pay tribute to his work to ensure that Watford General However, not everyone in society has a family or even
Hospital and the local NHS got additional funding. I friends to support them, and, through no fault of their
am proud that Watford will get one of the six new own, they may feel that they are on their own. That is
hospitals in the coming months and years, as was alluded where community comes into play. Let us all be role
to in a previous speech. Richard was a true champion models to support people who feel as though they have
for Watford, and I hope I can fill his shoes in the coming no one. That is the role of a Member of Parliament: not
years. I will work tirelessly to do so, although my height just to make laws, but to help those around us. We must
may not change. let everyone know that opportunity has no gender.
As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, Watford General Opportunity should have no race and it should have no
is on Vicarage Road, right next to the legendary, most age. Whoever someone is, wherever they are, they should
fabulous Watford football club, which famously once be able to be the best version of themselves. I believe
had Elton John as its chairman. I would like to steal one that my party is helping to represent that.
of his song titles and say that I would like to be the first Community is very important to me, which is why I
rocket man of Watford as we soar to the stars. worry about modern times. Mental health has been a
Sadly, to be totally honest, Elton John was not actually big issue today, but so, too, is loneliness. We used to talk
born in Watford—I cannot do anything about that—but about being lonely in a crowd, but today there are so
we do have an incredible wealth of world-famous many who are lonely in the cloud. The digital world,
Watfordians. We have our very own Spice Girl in Geri modern life and social media mean that probably more
1239 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1240

[Dean Russell] by the care home bills she has received for her mother’s
care, in the distress of dementia patients forced to sell
people are aware of the names of the Kardashian their homes and in the anguish of the sibling of an
family than they are of those of the neighbours on their autistic man who is living in supported accommodation
own street. where the staff are too busy, poorly paid and undertrained
For many years, I have felt that we need to bring the to safely manage the behaviour of other residents. When
world back together, to be less divisive and to try to tie we talk about social care, we are talking about individual
those threads together. I have had a daily philosophy for lives—about my constituents, and millions like them,
many years, and it goes like this: HOPE is an acronym whose present day-to-day is intolerable.
and it stands for Help One Person Everyday. If we all The Tories offer nothing but prevarication and delay.
do that in our own lives, in a way that changes people’s During the previous Parliament, the Government delayed
lives, we will have a better world. I feel honoured to be publishing the social care Green Paper eight times, and
in this place as a Conservative, to enable that on a much they went into the general election offering only a vague
bigger scale. We may be able to effect laws and change commitment to cross-party talks. Yet extensive cross-party
legislation, but changing people’s lives is surely why we work has already been done by Andrew Dilnot and
are here. Select Committees in both Houses. The menu of options
In the past few years, we have seen lots of divisiveness, available to deliver a social care system in which everyone
but let us have an age of decisiveness. Let’s not just get who needs support can live with dignity is clear: there is
Brexit done—let’s get stuff done, to make people’s lives a broad consensus that care should be free at the point
better. I believe that our manifesto and the Queen’s of need and there is a clear understanding that additional
Speech have shown that that is our goal. As we enter taxation must be raised to fund it. There is simply no
2020, let us lead the world in relentless positivity, optimism excuse for the disgraceful delay in bringing forward
and can-do-ism, and turn this into the soaring 20s. As I detailed proposals. The message it sends is that the
complete my speech—I may be going over time; I Tories just do not care about the daily misery that so
apologise—I just want to thank people for electing me many people are experiencing right now because social
to be on this Bench and tell them that I will work care is broken.
tirelessly for the people of Watford, and with all Members Finally, the Government must address the scandal of
here, to make the world a better place. their utter failure to deliver the transforming care
programme. Winterbourne View should never have
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I happened, but once that disgraceful scandal had come
thank everyone who is speaking today but not making a to light, it should never, ever have happened again. Yet,
maiden speech for their kindness towards the maiden on this Secretary of State’s watch, horrific abuses took
speech makers, who are being given a lot more leeway. place at Whorlton Hall and the NHS continues to pay
That means that we will now have to impose a time limit for patients to be placed in the private hospital at St
of four minutes on people who are not making maiden Andrew’s in Northampton, which was recently failed
speeches and still one of six minutes or so for maiden again by the Care Quality Commission. Autistic people
speeches. There is no point in people looking shocked; and people with learning disabilities should be able to
there are only so many hours in a day and that is where live with dignity in homes, not hospitals—in regulated
we are. community provision, supported by well-trained, properly
paid staff.
The Government have a decade of failure on social
3.43 pm care under their belt. They simply cannot be trusted.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): We will hold them to account on behalf of our most
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I congratulate vulnerable constituents, who desperately need a radically
all the Members who have made their excellent maiden different approach.
speeches in the House today?
Across the country there is a clear and urgent need to 3.46 pm
reform the social care system. A vast unsustainable gap
exists between the current funding levels and the reality Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I thought,
on the ground. Local authorities, including Tory-run Madam Deputy Speaker, that immediately I stood up
councils such as Somerset, are stretched to breaking you would announce that the time limit was down to
point, facing impossible daily decisions to cut care three minutes.
packages or raise the threshold for qualification for The number of medically trained professionals who
support. The Local Government Association estimates have come into the House has apparently risen dramatically.
that the shortfall between funding and need in social I am one of them, but I have been here a wee while. I
care is £1.5 billion in the current financial year, with warn the new ones that their profession will lean on
that set to grow to £3.5 billion by 2024-25. them to put the case until they are driven to it, as I am
The Government funding announcement on social today.
care is playing a very disingenuous game with the public I wish to pick on child dental health in particular. For
across the country who rely on social care. An decades, the statistics have been absolutely appalling.
announcement that falls far short of meeting the current Deciduous teeth—baby teeth—are particularly susceptible
funding gap is simply not remotely close to a solution to to decay: their enamel is much thinner than that of
the long-problems of social care. The failures of this permanent teeth. Before SNP Members stand up to tell
Government on social care can be seen in the inbox of me about it, I should say that action has been taken on
every Member of this House. I see it in the case of my care and education, particularly in schools, and to some
constituent who is being made ill by the anxiety provoked degree it is working, but those children for whom it does
1241 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1242

not work, or works only partially, will require extractions. that by the time my tenure in this seat draws to a
I can remember looking at little kids in east London close—sooner rather than later in a progressive, independent
with appalling mouths—broken-down teeth, abscesses— Scotland—I will have repaid the faith that voters showed
who were crying and having sleepless nights, and having in me.
to refer them to hospital for a general anaesthetic.
I also stand here with the unenviable task of following
The statistics today are terrible. Last year, more than the maiden speeches of my predecessors, not least my
45,000 children and young people aged up to 19 were good friend and now colleague, my hon. Friend the
admitted to hospital because of tooth decay. They Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson).
included 26,000 five to nine-year-olds, making tooth I am sure he remembers fondly the eloquent and articulate
decay the leading cause of hospital admissions for that way in which the history and beauty of my constituency
age group. Last year, there were more than 40,000 has been described in this House. Not only is East
hospital operations and extractions for children and Dunbartonshire one of the most prosperous places to
young people. That is 160 a day. It is a complete waste live in the country, given its array of excellent state
of money, it is completely preventable and it is occupying schools and the unshakeable community spirit in areas
space in our national health service. like Bishopbriggs, Kirkintilloch, Bearsden and Milngavie,
Education is starting to make a difference, but far but it is a constituency that is steeped in history in more
and away the best-proven method to reduce tooth decay ways than one.
among children, and even more so among adults, is
fluoridation of the water supply. In the United Kingdom, First, if people visited today, they would find the
approximately 330,000 people have naturally occurring remains of the Antonine wall— the northernmost point
fluoride in their water supply. In addition, another of the Roman empire—still running through the area.
5.8 million in different parts of the country are supplied As any history buff would tell them—I am sure there
with fluoridated water. But that covers only 10% of the are many in this House—it is thought that this UNESCO
total population. The percentage covered in the United world heritage site was built by the Romans to defend
States is 74% and rising; in Canada it is 44% and rising; their mighty armies from the tenacity of the locals.
in Australia it is 80% and rising; and even little New Others say the case could equally be made that the
Zealand has managed 70%. We have fluoridation legislation, Romans became so enamoured of the sheer beauty of
but it is left for local authorities to instigate and compel the countryside and the Campsies that they simply
companies to fluoridate their water supplies. There is decided to stop and take in the view. They certainly
no financial advantage for the local authorities, but the would not have been the last. Regardless of the reason
savings to the NHS would be considerable. for the wall’s construction, I find it rather fitting, given
the political climate we find ourselves in, that such a
The second problem with the current legislation is vast and seemingly unstoppable empire was halted in
that few local authority boundaries are coterminous my Scottish constituency after said empire had conquered
with the boundaries of the water companies. That makes Europe. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there
direction and implementation complex. The sensible about ignoring the will of the people of East
answer is for legislation to apply nationwide. That is not Dunbartonshire, let alone the people of Scotland.
in the Queen’s Speech. It could be put into a Queen’s
Speech, but it will take a brave Government, I hope As per tradition, I pay tribute to my predecessor, Jo
supported by the Opposition, to include and implement Swinson, both as the former MP for East Dunbartonshire
that. I warn that whenever I speak about fluoridation, and the former leader of the Liberal Democrats. In her
the green ink letters fly and broomsticks whizz around time as the MP for East Dunbartonshire, Jo achieved a
my house as people complain. However, it works for great deal in encouraging young women into politics
child dental health care, which is deplorable in this and indeed to reach their potential in all walks of life. I
country. think what both Jo and I can bring to the table is
showing young women right across the United Kingdom
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It that although there are still barriers in place, we can
is a great pleasure to call Amy Callaghan to make her smash them. We should show people that there are no
maiden speech. limitations to our worth.
That brings me nicely to my next point about the
3.50 pm unique history of my constituency—one that Jo Swinson
rightfully highlighted in her maiden speech in 2005.
Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP): Thank East Dunbartonshire has a history of electing strong
you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity and ambitious women in their 20s. In particular, I
to make my first speech in this place on such an important would like to pay homage to the late but inspirational
topic. It is my honour to stand before you all as the new Margaret Ewing. She won this “unwinnable” seat in
SNP representative for East Dunbartonshire. I cannot 1974 at the age of 29 with a majority of just 22 votes.
begin to describe how grateful I am to all those who Ms Ewing entered the Commons under the name of
have put their faith in me. To my family who are here Margaret Bain with a tenacious desire to get the very
today, to my outstanding campaign team, and to every best for the people of Scotland and to defend the rights
single person who showed up at the ballot box on of those less fortunate than ourselves. It is a damning
12 December and entrusted me with their vote—and indictment of the state of this Parliament that that is
those who did not—together we have made history. exactly what I plan to do with the platform I have been
It is my promise that I shall fight tooth and nail at given. Nevertheless, these women have paved the way
every turn to ensure that the people of East Dunbartonshire, for young female politicians like me, and it is my hope
and indeed the people of Scotland, never feel left behind that I too can serve as an example to young women in
or ignored by their representative again. I can only hope East Dunbartonshire, and indeed across the country,
1243 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1244

[Amy Callaghan] that we offer hope. Hope in the face of adversity. Hope
in the face of soaring food bank use. Hope in the face of
and show them that they can make a difference, and nuclear weapons on our waters. And hope for the
that no door is—or should be—closed to them regardless people of Scotland that this is not the best that is out
of their circumstances. there.
I am delighted to be making my maiden speech on
the topic of health and social care. I was not shy during 3.57 pm
my campaign in highlighting the profound impact the Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): It is a
NHS has had on my life. I certainly would not be pleasure to follow the new hon. Member for East
standing here as the newly elected MP for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan). Indeed, I congratulate
Dunbartonshire, just shy of being six years cancer free, her on her maiden speech. She spoke with striking
had it not been for our NHS in Scotland. To the personal elements as well as a very clear affection for
surgeon, Mr John Scott, who saved my life not just her constituency. She clearly has strong views, and in
once, but twice, I thank you from the bottom of my that respect she evidently follows on in the long line of
heart. To organisations such as the Teenage Cancer strong women representing her area, so I congratulate
Trust, which guided me throughout my cancer journey her wholeheartedly.
and are an immeasurable support to young people It is a privilege to be back here again representing my
facing a cancer diagnosis across the UK, I thank them home constituency of the Vale of Clwyd following an
for the unparalleled support that they gave to me and to unwelcome and enforced couple of years away. I am, of
so many other young people. course, generously termed a retread.
The issue that I should like to highlight most in I must start by placing on record my true thanks to
respect of teenage and young adult cancer is its mental all my constituents who voted for me, many of whom
health impact—an area on which I have done considerable voted for my party for the first time ever. It is my
personal work. As a society, there is an ingrained ambition to live up to their hopes and aspirations, as
assumption that once someone has the all clear from a well as to the hopes and aspirations of everybody else
cancer diagnosis, they should return to normal. I could who did not vote for me. As I did in 2015, I pay tribute
not be clearer that normal does not exist after a cancer to my predecessor, Chris Ruane, who was well respected
diagnosis—much less for a young person whose world and represented the constituency very ably for more
has been turned upside down. They have had the harsh than 20 years in total.
realisation that they are not invincible and they could On the doorsteps in November and December, there
also be facing fertility issues and the loss of a family was no bigger domestic issue than health. I must declare
that they never yet knew they wanted to have. an interest, as I am an NHS doctor and I am also
I considered myself unlucky for a long time for married to an NHS nurse. Between 2017 and 2019, I
having to face this diagnosis so young, but I am now at worked full-time as a GP in my constituency in Rhyl
the point in my journey where I can put this behind me and in other parts of north-east Wales and west Cheshire.
and use the platform that I have to achieve great things This has given me a unique insight into the state of the
for young cancer patients across the United Kingdom. NHS in north Wales and further afield. Health matters
My journey resonated with the good people of East were transferred to Cardiff, almost in their entirety,
Dunbartonshire who put their trust in me to come 20 years ago. That includes the organisation, structure
down to this place and best represent them. I can tell and basic terms of functioning of the NHS. The reality,
them that that is exactly what I will do. My clear though, is that there is still much confusion among the
message to those on the Government Benches is to keep electorate about where powers lie, and my inbox has
their hands off Scotland’s NHS. been inundated with NHS issues since my re-election.
I have watched many of my colleagues’ maiden speeches The north Wales health board—the Betsi Cadwaladr
and have noticed that they like to quote Rabbie Burns. University Health Board—has been in special measures
In the same spirit, I thought it only fitting to quote a for more than four and a half years, which my constituents
newer generation of Scots poet whose writing could not and I find totally unacceptable. As yet, there is still no
be more apt to the situation in which the people of evidence of a turnaround, and my constituents are
Scotland find themselves. Gerry Cinnamon wrote: being let down by a systemic failure in the north Wales
“Are you happy that nuclear weapons are dumped on the NHS. I am extremely limited for time today due to the
Clyde? number of speakers, but in future debates I hope to
Fighting wars for the wealth of the few, how many have died? expand in detail on the issues that I have come across
You can bury my bones but the truth of it can’t be denied.
over the last two years in particular. Let me just emphasise
that comparable and meaningful data to highlight the
Will you stand and be counted coz I’ll be there stood by your extent of this state of affairs is often lacking—if I am
side.
honest, I think that may be deliberate—especially given
Hope over fear; don’t be afraid. that one of the benefits of devolution was meant to be
Tell Westminster Tories that Scotland’s no longer your slave.” that we could compare performance of different policies
That brings me to why I am here and why my colleagues across different parts of the UK. I will expand on the
were elected and re-elected as SNP MPs by voters causes behind the problems that I have come across on
across Scotland. After 60 years of not voting for the another occasion, but let me say now that workforce is a
UK Governments that we end up with, it is hardly a key issue, including poor recruitment and retention of
surprise that support for independence is at an all-time staff.
high. It has nothing to do with the so-called wave of To conclude—in the 40 seconds or so I have left—I
nationalism that those outwith my party claim is sweeping have outlined not only interesting statistics, but sadly an
Scotland, and instead everything to do with the fact indication of unnecessary loss of life and of harm to
1245 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1246

real patients. At the very least, there is a need for As well as planes, trains are a constant source of
UK-wide patient safety mechanisms and rigorous inspection frustration for my constituents. The Hampton and
regimes, underpinned by comparable statistical data on Shepperton line via Strawberry Hill was built in 1864,
performance and outcomes. I urge the Secretary of and local residents may be forgiven for questioning
State seriously to consider that when progressing the whether the service has seen any improvement since
initiatives outlined in the Queen’s Speech. then. It is the first service to be cut when there is any
disruption. The South Western Railway franchise has
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It been disastrous from the start, with constant cancellations
is a great pleasure to call Munira Wilson to make her and delays—my constituents suffered 27 days of strikes
maiden speech. in December. With big question marks over its future
viability, the Transport Secretary must urgently review
4.1 pm the franchise.
Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): It is a pleasure—and We are extremely proud to have Teddington Memorial
slightly daunting—to follow so many powerful and Hospital, which was opened in 1875, with just four
emotive maiden speeches. I thought that the hon. Members beds, and which now provides important community
for Luton North (Sarah Owen), for Vauxhall (Florence services. The amazing League of Friends has raised tens
Eshalomi) and for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison) of thousands of pounds to modernise parts of the
made particularly moving speeches. It is an honour to hospital, and that jewel of a facility is rightly jealously
give my maiden speech, and I am especially proud that guarded by local residents.
my five-year-old daughter is in the Gallery to witness
this moment. With a record number of female and We have a moral obligation to ensure that every child
BAME MPs elected in this Parliament, I hope that I and young person has the opportunity to flourish, but
and others will be an inspiration to girls like her and many have shared with me their frustration in accessing
other young women as we strive towards a more diverse child and adolescent mental health services when they
Parliament that truly reflects British society. most need that support. Just last week, the mother of a
10-year-old with tier 3 needs in my constituency wrote
As the new Member of Parliament for Twickenham,
to tell me how her child had been waiting four months
I follow in the illustrious footsteps—or should I say
for an appointment and would be waiting months more
dancing shoes—of the right hon. Sir Vincent Cable.
for treatment. My local mental health trust has seen
After all, he did get a 10 from Len on “Strictly”! Vince
demand explode fifty-fold in the space of four years for
earned the respect of Members of all parties in this
tier 3 treatment. Off the Record is an outstanding
House, not just for his economic prowess, but for his
charity in my constituency working tirelessly with children
dry sense of humour. Who can forget his infamous
and young people in this area. It provides a vital service
“from Stalin to Mr Bean” put-down of Prime Minister
under immense pressure, and I look forward to supporting
Gordon Brown?
its work.
Vince served Twickenham assiduously for 20 years. I
have always been struck by how many people have told My constituents are known for being an active bunch,
me that they or someone close to them have been helped and while Twickenham is the home of English rugby
by Vince when they have had a problem, and this is the and Harlequins, it is also the home of Parkrun, founded
work of which I know he is rightly most proud. Among in the stunning Bushy Park. I look forward to welcoming
his many local achievements, I thought it apt today—while the officers and members of the Parkrun all-party
we are debating health and social care—to highlight his parliamentary group to join me in Bushy Park one
work with a local vicar in establishing Homelink in Saturday morning for a run.
Whitton, which is a day respite care centre for dementia I came into politics driven by a desire to tackle
patients. He has also been a patron and champion, since inequality, protect our environment and promote
its inception, of Shooting Star Children’s Hospice in internationalist values. It is an immense privilege to
Hampton and its work in palliative care. The National have been granted the opportunity to serve both my
Physical Laboratory in Teddington employs some 1,000 local community and my country as a Member of
scientists, engineers and skilled professionals. Vince was Parliament, in order to champion those values. Twickenham,
particularly proud of supporting the NPL to secure Teddington, Whitton, St Margarets and the Hamptons
long-term funding and become a global leader in metrology. form a very special constituency, and I look forward, as
Both Vince and his Conservative predecessor, the late Whitton’s woman in Westminster, to championing their
Toby Jessell, campaigned hard locally to try to protect interests first and foremost in this place.
the Royal Military School of Music. Kneller Hall,
which was founded in 1857, is sadly being sold by the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It
Ministry of Defence and is set to close later this year. It is a great pleasure to call Paul Bristow to make his
is a huge loss to the local community. maiden speech.
All my predecessors, including the former Conservative
Member Tania Mathias, were united in opposing the 4.8 pm
expansion of Heathrow airport, and I will continue that
fight. As Heathrow is the biggest single source of greenhouse Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): Thank you for
gas emissions in this country, regularly breaching statutory the opportunity to give my maiden speech, Madam
air pollution limits, building a third runway would be Deputy Speaker. It is an honour to follow the hon.
an immensely regressive step in tackling the climate Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson), who mentioned
emergency, and would have a significant impact on that her five-year-old daughter is in the Gallery. I would
the health and wellbeing of tens of thousands of local like to give a shout out to my four-week-old daughter
residents. I invite the Prime Minister to keep his promise who is also in the Gallery today—[HON. MEMBERS:
to lie down in front of the bulldozers. “Hear, hear.”]
1247 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1248

[Paul Bristow] Far too many people think negatively about my city,
not helped by bogus surveys naming Peterborough as
It seems right to make my maiden speech in the the worst place to live in the UK. Fake polling does not
debate on health and social care. Those services—both harm us, but a negative mindset does. I am unashamed
our care and NHS services—have been part of my life to continually say that I am proud of Peterborough. We
and part of my career, and they are now part of how I are a great city. We have fantastic transport links. The
intend to serve the people of Peterborough as their east coast mainline puts us just 45 minutes from London,
Member of Parliament. That is partly because Peterborough while the A1 puts us on one of the north-south road
is a growing city. It is my city, and we need more arteries. The A47 connects us east to west, which it will
resources for our local NHS. Now we finally have a do far better when the Government finally agree to dual
majority Government, I am confident we will get them. it through my constituency. As a long-suffering York
If someone had to pick one constituency to illustrate City football club fan, I can confidently claim that
the political chaos before the general election, they Peterborough has a successful football team.
might well choose mine. I am the fourth MP for We have a talented and hard-working population
Peterborough in less than three years. Local people from across the world. Many Italians arrived after the
were crying out for the same political stability that our second world war, and eastern Europeans more recently,
country needed and, now they have elected me, I would joined in between by large parts of the Indian and
like to modestly suggest that they can achieve this by Pakistani diaspora. Striving for peace and respect for
returning the same MP for a considerable period of the rights of my constituents’ families in Kashmir is one
time—20 or 30 years perhaps. of my priorities in this House.
Each of my three immediate predecessors left their The future should be ours in Peterborough; it just
mark, and each, to be fair, cared about our local NHS takes a bit of help. I will be reminding Ministers that the
services. Although Fiona Onasanya will inevitably be characteristics of northern towns and cities are shared
remembered for the manner of her departure, our city by my constituency. Like the north and like the midlands,
should be proud that we elected our first black MP in Peterborough expects.
2017—as should she. On the subject of this debate, care and the NHS, we
I stood in last year’s by-election with Lisa Forbes, so must deliver. For me, this is personal, because it was the
we have a shared experience. Lisa was gracious in NHS that brought me to Peterborough as a five-year-old.
victory and gracious in defeat. She did not have much My parents moved to the area to work in the city’s
time in this House, but I respect the way she conducted national health service. I should also declare another
herself during that campaign, and I know that her interest, and have literally done so in the Register of
commitment to Peterborough was sincere. She should Members’ Financial Interests, because until recently I
also be congratulated on her campaign on affordable owned a communications business specialising in health
school uniforms. and social care. It is from this background that I intend
to approach our NHS and social care system.
Finally, but not least, I would like to pay tribute to
We need a service that focuses relentlessly on patient
Stewart Jackson. I have known Stewart since I was a
outcomes. There is an opportunity for the UK to lead
teenager; I am increasingly aware that was some time
the world in healthcare outcomes, healthcare research
ago. As many here will know, he was a great champion
and jobs in the life sciences and health technology
for Peterborough. He has been a great friend to me, and
industry. I want to mention just three things that we
served my constituents with distinction for 12 years. If I
should perhaps do about that: the first is to deliver on
can begin to match his dedication, I will not have gone
NHS capacity, the second is to maintain our ambition
far wrong.
on life sciences research and manufacturing, and the
Peterborough deserves that, because it is a special third is to do what works—what the evidence shows
city—an ancient city with a proud history. We have one makes a difference to patients. I understand that that is
of finest Norman cathedrals in Europe, where Mary, not always easy, and new technology is often expensive,
Queen of Scots lay after her death, and where Catherine but simple compliance with the National Institute of
of Aragon is buried. The cathedral holds the Hedda Health and Care Excellence guidelines on medicines
stone—just one part of our Anglo-Saxon heritage—and and technology would make an enormous difference.
its wooden ceiling dates back to 1250. Yet that was a With the £33 billion-a-year determination shown by
relatively late part of our past, because recent excavations this Government in the NHS long-term funding plan, I
at Must farm mean that Peterborough museum now am confident for the future.
hosts a stupendous display of bronze age artefacts. The
area has even been dubbed Britain’s answer to Pompeii.
The former residents of Pompeii spent centuries huddled 4.14 pm
together in small groups, covered in ash. Having known Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): It is an honour to
Peterborough’s nightclubs before the smoking ban, I follow the hon. Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow),
can confirm that our nightlife felt no different. who made important points about the need in our
Although Peterborough’s history is special, our potential health and social care system. I look forward to working
is yet more exciting. We can build on our status as a together to make this Government realise how important
working city. We have world-class manufacturers at health and social care are for the people of this country.
Perkins Engines and Peter Brotherhood. We can seize The NHS is in crisis. Trusts across the country are
on our new trading opportunities to become a national under considerable strain as they seek to absorb additional
centre of excellence in engineering and agritech. The demands for care, caused largely by the cuts that this
plans for a specialist university are crucial, and I will be Government have made since 2010 and the more than
lobbying for the investment that this university needs. 100,000 vacancies in the NHS workforce. In December,
1249 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1250

we learned that A&E performance had dropped to such is his commitment that I was delighted to speak
79.8% against the four-hour standard—the worst figures alongside him at a planning inquiry on Tuesday this
since records began. The Government’s response was week. I am sure the House will agree that, as a Member
not to fix the problem but to scrap the target, which of Parliament and a Minister, he more than met the aim
could lead to a near-catastrophic impact on patient that he expressed in his maiden speech: to remove some
safety. of the “blemish” of a family member who assassinated
Health and social care provision have been decimated a British Prime Minister. Echoing my hon. Friend the
by this Government. We hear the Prime Minister and Member for Watford (Dean Russell), I know that I have
the Health Secretary crowing about making the “biggest big shoes to fill.
ever cash investment” in the NHS in England. It is too King’s Lynn is at the centre of my constituency, and
little, too late—and I do not believe that it is true. The its rich heritage dates from the 13th century, when it was
Prime Minister announced that 40 new hospitals would one of the country’s main ports. Today, it continues to
be built, and then we found out that there would be only make a significant contribution to our local economy.
six. It is nowhere near the biggest funding injection in This month saw the 575th anniversary of the first play
the NHS in real terms when inflation is taken into performed at St George’s Guildhall, the oldest working
account. The truth is that, prior to 2010, the long-term theatre in the UK and the only one that can claim that
funding increases in the NHS were 4% per year. The Shakespeare performed there. The guild was founded,
Tories’ commitment is an increase of just 3.1%, and there incidentally, by another of my predecessors, John Brandon,
have been huge cuts to social care. known as Britain’s greatest pirate. Channelling his spirit,
We were promised a new plan for social care in I want to secure some of the treasure of the towns fund,
December 2016, but still we have nothing. The Prime the future high streets fund and the other investment
Minister previously said that he had prepared a “clear coming from this Government for North West Norfolk.
plan” to fix the social care crisis. Now we know that Beyond King’s Lynn, my constituency is blessed with
there is no plan, let alone a clear one. Last year, a beautiful coastline from Hunstanton to Holme and
34,860 people died while waiting for a decision on their Brancaster to the Burnhams. To the west are the villages
application for social care. To think that social care in the marshland—from Clenchwarton to Walpole St Peter.
could be fobbed off for up to another five years is a It is an area with a diverse economy, with much to offer,
disaster for the 1.5 million people who cannot get the but it needs the infrastructure investment to help it
care they need today, a disaster for those in my constituency thrive and take full advantage of the opportunities of
who must travel tens of miles to access in-patient mental Brexit. We also have a wealth of excellent pubs in the
health care, and a disaster for patients in my constituency constituency: the Dabbling Duck in Great Massingham,
who struggle to access GP services. the Rose & Crown in Snettisham and the Black Horse
The NHS is seeing the first sustained fall in GP Inn in Castle Rising. As you can tell, Madam Deputy
numbers in the UK for 50 years. Large workloads and Speaker, I have been working hard to find the best, and
feelings of demoralisation are behind a surge in the I hope that the Budget will have good news for beer
number of GPs wanting to quit. It is clear that the drinkers in all of them.
Government must be more ambitious in their GP training The Love West Norfolk campaign is doing a great job
plans, because right now, eight out of 10 GPs feel to promote all the good things about the constituency,
unable to deliver safe care. Patients are waiting weeks to but there are challenges—rural bus services, broadband,
get an appointment and are being put at risk. flood risk, educational outcomes—that I will want to
The investment promised by this Government may help tackle in my time in this House. Healthcare is at
well keep our health service on life support, but the the top of my constituents’ list of concerns, so I strongly
service needs real investment to meet the needs of the support putting into legislation this record investment
future and deliver the improvements we want to see to in the NHS. Similarly, our manifesto pledge to have 15
keep our patients safe. million more GP appointments has been widely welcomed,
as has the excellent Pharmacy First initiative. During
Several hon. Members rose— the election, I saw where that investment was going
when I visited the site of the new surgery coming to
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It Burnham Market, which will serve surrounding villages
is a great pleasure to call James Wild to make his and also, importantly in my constituency, will have a
maiden speech. dementia suite. Tomorrow, I will be meeting constituents
who are concerned, as am I, about plans to close the GP
surgery in Fairstead.
4.18 pm
More than one constituent looking to find an NHS
James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con): It is a huge dentist has commented to me on the absurdity of the
privilege, as someone born and bred in Norfolk, to advice on the NHS website, recommending that they go
stand here having been elected to represent the people to Skegness as the nearest practice. Flying across the
of North West Norfolk. I thank them for putting their Wash may be practical for the migrating pink-footed
trust in me, which I will do my very best to repay. geese that are a great sight in the big skies of Norfolk,
I have many auspicious predecessors, including Sir Robert but it is not very practical advice for my constituents, so
Walpole, our first Prime Minister. However, I want to dental provision is an issue that I will be working on in
pay particular tribute to my immediate predecessor, this Parliament.
Sir Henry Bellingham. Henry was a great constituency As well as the need to improve mental health services
MP who represented the area for over 30 years. He is and social care, the Queen Elizabeth Hospital—the
rightly recognised locally as an assiduous champion for QEH—in King’s Lynn is extremely important to my
his constituents, regardless of how they voted. Indeed, constituents. Although it is in special measures, there is
1251 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1252

[James Wild] health services in England last year were rejected? Even
when a referral was accepted, many children had to wait
new leadership there, and on Friday I went to see for for an average of two months to begin treatment in
myself the improvements that are taking place, so the 2019—double the Government’s four-week target.
opportunity to speak in this debate is very timely. My Birmingham Women’s and Children’s Hospital has a
visit came after an intense period in A&E, with a median wait time of 112 days. That is almost four
tenfold increase in the number of flu cases. Pam, the months.
matron of A&E, was a great ambassador for the hospital— A decade of neglect in early intervention care, and an
committed to delivering for patients and, despite all the under-resourced mental health services sector, has meant
challenges, she was still smiling. I met a dedicated that many more young people are turning up to A&E. I
maternity team, improving the service for new parents had hoped that the Government would have listened
and supporting those who, sadly, suffer bereavements. I when I raised the issue in the debate on the previous
was glad to speak to the porters, cleaners, infection Queen’s Speech, but given a second chance, the Prime
teams and security guards—the people who do not get Minister has failed once again to show that he is serious
the recognition they deserve, for they are the ones who about tackling mental ill health. Yes, reform of the
can tell you what is really going on in the hospital. What Mental Health Act 1983 is important and desperately
came across to me was the passion of the staff: people needed, but the Government also need properly to fund
proud of the improvements they have delivered for their vital preventive services.
patients, but who want to continue that journey and
take the hospital out of special measures. As their MP, I For the many new Members of Parliament, I will
pledge my support for them. repeat the shocking statistic that failed to elicit any
action last time: for the whole of Birmingham there is
This year marks the 40th anniversary of the Queen only one early intervention counselling service for young
Elizabeth Hospital. However, it was built with a life people. The most recent waiting list has 400 young
expectancy of 30 years, and its age is showing. The people and their families who are waiting desperately
design does not lend itself to current clinical practices, for treatment and support. The only conclusion I can
care pathways or patient flows. A&E is too cramped to draw is that the Conservative Government are knowingly
meet demand, and the roof has major structural issues. and willingly failing our children and young people.
So, in this decade of renewal—with the infrastructure
plan and the biggest cash investment in the NHS—I spy We know what we need. We need genuine parity of
an opportunity not just to fix the roof, but to do more. I esteem. We must use the standards that we expect for
have spoken to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of physical health treatment as a template, and apply them
State during the election campaign and since about the to mental health patients. We need mental health services
Queen Elizabeth Hospital. I know he will consider that are truly responsive to the complex conditions with
carefully proposals from the trust for capital investment— which our young people frequently present. We must
proposals that also harness digital technology. The QEH listen to young people when making decisions about the
currently languishes near the bottom of the digital mental health services they use. I will ask the Minister
league, when it aspires to be like King’s Lynn FC, which once again: will he listen to those of us who are calling
is riding high at the top of the Vanarama National for the Government to do more for young people with
League North. The QEH is up for change, and it is up mental ill-health, and deliver on the promises that his
for innovation. My right hon. Friend has previously party has been making—promises that it has so far
accepted an invitation to come to the hospital, and I been breaking?
would be delighted if he will join me in the near future As a former social worker, I was surprised that the
to come and see how we can make the real improvements Queen’s Speech failed to commit to a review of children’s
that the people of North West Norfolk deserve. social care—the vital system that is designed to protect
some of the most vulnerable in our society. That total
and utter dereliction of duty follows cuts of almost a
4.24 pm third in services for children and young people since the
Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op): Conservatives came to power. Children’s social care is
It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for North coming apart, despite the best efforts of hardworking
West Norfolk (James Wild) who, along with many hon. councils around the country.
Members this afternoon, made an excellent maiden It should not be just about this; it should not just be
speech. I wish him well and look forward to working firefighting. Social care should be about providing a
with him and all new Members. system to support every child. We must give children
Two months ago, I stood in this Chamber and spoke the opportunity for the best start in life, whether that is
of my disappointment that the Queen’s Speech included in the form of late intervention such as safeguarding
only one reference to mental health, and even that was a teams that step in in instances of abuse or neglect, or
reference to the Mental Health Act 1983, rather than a whether it is early intervention such as children’s centres
systematic programme to tackle mental health across and programmes that support parents and youth services.
all demographics. According to research by the Children’s Children’s services are not only about looking after
Society, of the 22,365 children in Birmingham, Edgbaston, children in care; they provide effective family support
an estimated 2,733 five to 19-year-olds are struggling services that help more children to stay in their homes if
with mental ill-health. That is more than 10%. At the it is safe to do so. The Conservative party manifesto
same time, the money available for local services for recognises the underfunding of children’s social care.
children and young people has fallen by 38%. Is it any Does the Minister agree that local authorities still
wonder that just last week, research by the Education do not have sufficient resources to address rising
Policy Institute revealed that more than a quarter of demand, even if his Government deliver on their
child referrals for children and young people’s mental manifesto commitment?
1253 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1254

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It shore up both hospitals, bring all usable parts back into
is a pleasure to call Elliot Colburn to make his maiden use, and, most excitingly, build a third brand-new hospital
speech. in our area to provide acute services. That is incredible
news for local patients and something for which my
4.28 pm hon. Friends the Members for Sutton and Cheam (Paul
Scully), for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) and for Wimbledon
Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): (Stephen Hammond), and my right hon. Friend the
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), have
make my maiden speech as the new Member of Parliament been campaigning for a very long time.
for Carshalton and Wallington. First, I wish to thank
the people in my constituency who sent me to this, the However, the funding is not certain. The consultation
mother of all Parliaments. I also thank all hon. Members on the site of the new hospital has just been launched,
who have made their maiden speeches today and throughout but unfortunately there is still a group locally who seem
the week. They have set the bar incredibly high, but I to think that the hospitals do not need any funding; that
will do my best. for some reason £500 million means the hospital will be
closed and that actually all those services are going to
Before I go on, I must pay tribute to the man who go in the next couple of months. Madam Deputy Speaker,
came before me and who represented Carshalton and nothing could be further from the truth, and nothing
Wallington for 22 years: Tom Brake. He had served in puts our hospitals more at risk than irresponsible
the House since 1997, holding many positions in his scaremongering about our health service. I make the
party and the coalition Government. Although we did pledge to my constituents, and every constituency covered
not agree on everything, as an LGBT+ person I will by our local NHS trust, that I will work with constituency
always be grateful to him for voting in favour of same-sex neighbours, when they are willing, to ensure that the
marriage in 2012. investment gets delivered and that we fight off the
To many people, Carshalton and Wallington seems scaremongers to finally put to bed a political football
nothing more than a suburban commuter town with that has been raging for over 50 years.
not much history. However, hon. Members who like
Health is about much more than just hospital buildings.
their history will be delighted to know that there is a
As a former NHS worker, I know, and those of us in
tale to tell, and like all good TV dramas it involves
this Chamber who have backgrounds in the health
power, intrigue, and even a royal fall-out. Carshalton
service will know, that a person’s overall health and
itself was rumoured to have been called Ceashorton, or
wellbeing is down to so much more than the quality of,
Caesar’s Town, in ancient times, because of the belief
and access to, an A&E hospital. It also depends on your
that the Roman Emperor once pitched up camp there.
housing, where you went to school, the work you have
However, during an excavation of what is now the
and the local environment. I am glad to see that, in the
Beddington sewerage farm, it was discovered that instead
Queen’s Speech, the Government have recognised those
of a hoard from Roman legions it was, rather, a Roman
factors. In other words, every single part of our lives
bath house that occupied the site.
affects our overall health and wellbeing in some way.
If we fast-forward to the Tudor period—I know my Every single Government Department, I hope, will bear
right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will be very that in mind when they make decisions. Investing in the
excited to hear this section—we find that Carshalton NHS is not just the right thing to do; it underpins the
and Wallington was home to the Carew family. Carew very ability of our country to reach its full potential. By
Manor, the only grade 1 listed building in my constituency, looking after the health of our people, we are looking
remains on the site today. It was home to Sir Nicholas after the health of our nation and giving all of us the
Carew, who was a favourite of Henry VIII until he was chance to prosper in the modern world.
executed for treason in 1539. It was here that the then
king spent time with Ann Boleyn while awaiting his first St Helier is just one of many campaign issues on
divorce. Their daughter walked the same trail—Sir Walter which I was elected to serve as the Member of Parliament
Raleigh is rumoured to have walked there with Queen for Carshalton and Wallington a few short weeks ago.
Elizabeth. Unfortunately, he was beheaded by James I Other issues include local train services, opposition to
in 1618. It is rumoured that his severed head was kept the council’s poor decision on parking, providing first-rate
by his wife and, to this day, is buried somewhere under education and protecting air quality. I will get to work
Beddington Park. However, hon. Members will be pleased immediately to deliver on those promises to move our
to know that my favourite memory of our fabulously country forward. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is time to
beautiful local park is when my other half, Jed, who is get to work.
in the Public Gallery, asked me to marry him. I was
reliably informed that I may have met the same fate as 4.34 pm
Sir Walter had I said anything but yes. Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): When
Turning back to the subject of today’s debate, I am Labour came to power in 1997, there were 1.3 million
delighted, as a former NHS worker, to be talking about people on a waiting list—the highest number since the
health and social care. It is incredibly important to me NHS was created in 1948. The Labour Government
and my constituents. Hon. Members were lucky to hear used targeted and sufficient funding to bring all those
about our local hospital, St Helier, from a very early figures down, to the point where A&E waiting times
contribution in this debate, so they should know all were down to four hours and waiting lists were down to
about it. After decades of warnings about potential 18 weeks. It is regrettable that the Government now
downgrading and even the threat of total closure, now, want to abolish the A&E waiting time target. Is that
thanks to the Conservatives in government, we have the simply to spare Ministers’ blushes? Since last October,
go-ahead for over £500 million of investment in St Helier 320,034 people waited more than four hours at A&E,
and Epsom hospitals. That is half a billion pounds to whereas in 2010 the figure was just 41,231.
1255 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1256

[Yasmin Qureshi] I want to talk about the importance of engineers. My

daddy is very fond of telling me that engineers have
My constituents have to wait three weeks to see a GP, saved more people’s lives than doctors have; it will
and many cannot find an NHS dentist at all. In relation perhaps not surprise Members to know that daddy is an
to targets, one of the things that helped, of course, was engineer. To some extent he is right, because improvements
treating cancer patients. In my constituency, 60% of in water, sanitation, investigatory tools such as CT and
patients received treatment within 62 days of their GP MRI, and ventilating machines have saved many lives.
referral, but 40% did not get the treatment they wanted That is why I am really pleased that the Government are
in time. bringing forward the medicines and medical devices
One of the main problems is the abolition of nursing Bill: it is by investing in research and increasing the
bursaries, which has led to difficulties recruiting and number of people in clinical trials, and investing in
training nurses. As we have heard, there are 100,000-odd research and development generally—the Government
nursing vacancies still to be filled. In relation to the are committed to increasing investment in R and D to
doctors contract, the abolition of the golden pension 2.4% of GDP—that we will be able to improve people’s
meant that many doctors took retirement at age 60, lives. This is not all about increasing the NHS budget,
which led to an acute shortage. I therefore ask the although I am also pleased to see that we are giving
Government please to return the 6,000 GP contracts the NHS its biggest ever cash injection, at £33 billion
that they abolished, so that my constituents can see a by 2023.
GP when they need to, rather than having to wait three In my last minute, I want to talk about diagnostic
weeks. centres. Grantham Hospital is very important to me
Many hon. Members have spoken today about social and to my constituents, and to the constituents of my
care provision, but there is one further aspect that I new neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham
would like Ministers to consider. Many care workers and Stamford (Gareth Davies). I was pleased that earlier
provide home visits of 30 or 45 minutes throughout the this week we were able to meet the Health Secretary to
day. Their paid work might be for only four hours in talk about the hospital’s future—a positive and excellent
total, but often they spend six or seven hours travelling future, in a growing town.
between visits. They have to pay for their transport and As a doctor, I have seen a progressive move towards
are on low incomes, so often they travel by public greater centralisation, with services becoming increasingly
transport. They might do only four hours of paid work remote from the people whom they serve. That makes
each day, but they will have spent six hours travelling. I sense for low-volume, high-complexity work, because it
know that Ministers are looking into the whole issue of improves outcomes for the patients who need such
financing care for elderly and vulnerable people, but treatment, but it does not make sense for high-volume,
this is an immediate problem that needs to be resolved. I low-complexity work, which should be delivered closer
hope that the Minister, when he responds, will set out to home. I was pleased to hear the Health Secretary say
what he plans to do about that. essentially just that in his speech earlier today, when he
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, suggested that diagnostics and investigations would move
Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) referred to the provision closer to home, which would mean a positive future for
of mental health facilities for young people. Young Grantham Hospital and the people there.
people in my constituency are having to wait around 10
weeks to be seen by child and adolescent mental health However, my first priority—and, no doubt, that of
services, which help young people in schools who have my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford
mental health and psychological issues. The services are —is to ensure that the hospital’s A&E department
much needed but very underfunded. This is important, reopens as a 24-hour, round-the-clock service. That is
because at the moment we are hearing not just about no more than my constituents deserve.
loneliness, but about serious issues such as bullying, and
the fact that many young people are very distressed, and
some are taking their own lives. Proper funding for the 4.41 pm
provision of mental health services for young people is Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): It is a huge
really important. pleasure to be the tail-end Charlie of this massive
Finally, may we please have more provision within debate on the Queen’s Speech. Every single Member
the funding for dentists? It really is appalling that across who made a maiden speech today—and they were all
the country, but especially in the north, it takes people outstanding—referred to health in considerable detail,
months to find an NHS dentist. which only goes to show that the Health Secretary
already knows that we are all probably more concerned
Several hon. Members rose— about our hospitals, nurses and GPs than about anything
else. In these last few minutes, I want to focus on two
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): issues. I will speak first about the workforce and people,
Order. The final two speakers have three minutes each. because ultimately our great health service depends on
people. Secondly, if I have the time, I will speak very
4.38 pm briefly about national insurance.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) As the Prime Minister has announced, we will have to
(Con): It is an honour to speak on a Queen’s Speech recruit a great many more nurses from abroad, but there
that has set out such a fantastic programme for government, are issues there. First, the NHS visa is very welcome,
and from a Conservative majority Government. As a but the mooted earnings threshold of £30,000 needs
consultant paediatrician, it is particularly special for me considerable thought, as does the application of the
to be able to speak in a debate on health. immigration health surcharge to those who are being
1257 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1258

recruited to work specifically for the NHS. There are also good to hear kind words about our former Labour
also anecdotal issues about family visas. My own suggestion colleagues Helen Goodman, Lisa Forbes and Stephen
to the Health Secretary is that we could look at whether Pound, whom we also miss.
long-term partnerships between British universities and Last month’s performance figures show the NHS
universities abroad in countries such as the Philippines struggling to cope with demand, unable to provide beds
might generate highly qualified nurses with British nursing for patients and leaving them languishing on trolleys in
qualifications and a good standard of English, ready to A&E departments. More than 1,400 patients were left
be recruited by the NHS and to come and work here. stranded in hospital each day last November. They were
That would help to resolve some of our problems. patients who were well enough to leave but unable to do
Even more important than our foreign nurses, however, so because of a lack of social care. The Government’s
is the regrowth of our home-grown nurses. That has failure to address the crisis in social care is having a
been helped by this Government’s creation of nursing profound impact on the lives of people who need care,
associates through a higher apprenticeship scheme. The and on our struggling NHS. The Health Foundation
“but”is that although work in, for example, Gloucestershire said last week:
Royal Hospital is valid for the purposes of the higher “No plan for the NHS will work while social care remains the
apprenticeship scheme, the Nursing and Midwifery Council Cinderella service. Long overdue action on social care is needed
to…reduce the pressures on the NHS.”
does not consider those employees to be eligible for the
BSc course. I urge Ministers to think about how the Proposing a solution to the crisis in care should be
apprenticeship levy could be used creatively to resolve the Government’s top priority, as we have heard in
the issue between NHS employers and the NMC. many of the speeches this afternoon. However, despite
That would provide a clear pathway for healthcare the Prime Minister’s earlier pledge to
assistants to go all the way to the status of a full nurse, “fix the crisis in social care once and for all, and with a clear plan
which would help us to realise the goal of 50,000 more we have prepared”,
nurses. he now says only that he will do something “in this
As for national insurance—which does not insure Parliament”. After 10 years of inaction, is that the best
anyone, let alone the nation—may I encourage the the Prime Minister can say, alongside a vague offer of
Health Secretary to look again at how we might use it as cross-party talks?
a ring-fenced source of funds for both health and social There are four key areas where action is needed to
care, thus turning it into national health insurance, as a ensure that people have access to a functioning social
King’s Fund study recommended so strongly earlier this care service that meets their needs. Labour has plans for
year? I believe that, sooner or later, that could be used a national care service, and we have made it clear how
for an even more precious cause: helping to fund our we would have addressed these four key areas. The first
future health and social care needs. is funding. The Association of Directors of Adult Social
Services tells us that, since 2010, £7.7 billion has been
cut from budgets for adult social care. Councils just do
4.44 pm not have the funding required to deliver the care that
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): people need. The second area is access to publicly
Today’s debate has shown how important the NHS and funded care. Age UK estimates that 1.5 million older
social care are to Members on both sides of the House, people are going without the social care and support
and has been wide-ranging. It has been great to listen to they need every day, and that number is increasing year
contributions from, I think, 32 Back Benchers, but, after year while the Government fail to act.
because we are short of time, I will focus on paying a The third area is capping care costs. Too many people
special tribute to the 12 who spoke for the first time. are faced with catastrophic costs for their care. In 2014,
the Government proposed to introduce a cap to limit
I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for the amount people must pay for their care, but they
Luton North (Sarah Owen), for Ealing North (James dropped that in 2017. In the past three years, 9,000 people
Murray), for Enfield North (Feryal Clark) and for who have been paying for their own care have completely
Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi), as well as the hon. Members depleted their savings or assets and approached their
for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott), for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna local authority for help with their care. The people who
Davison), for Watford (Dean Russell), for East face the highest costs are those with dementia. So just
Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan), for Peterborough how will the Government deliver on their promise that
(Paul Bristow), for Twickenham (Munira Wilson), for no one will be forced to sell their home to pay for care?
North West Norfolk (James Wild) and for Carshalton Will they introduce a cap on care costs, as Labour
and Wallington (Elliot Colburn). As the right hon. would do?
Member for Ashford (Damian Green) said earlier, the
standard of maiden speeches we have been hearing is The final area is the care workforce. Skills for Care
breathtakingly high. Those new Member all made excellent tells us that there are 122,000 vacant care jobs. Care
speeches, and reminded us of the qualities and commitment staff do not get the pay, working conditions or access to
to public service of their predecessors. They also highlighted training that they deserve, meaning that many of them
their own commitment to health and social care, and we leave working in care for better-paying jobs in retail or
heard of much personal experience of the wonderful hospitality. We need to pay care staff the real living
job being done by our staff in the NHS and social care. wage, provide them with training to develop their careers
Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South and end the use of zero-hours contracts.
(Jonathan Ashworth), the shadow Health and Social But it is not just in social care that there is a workforce
Care Secretary, mentioned the loss of our colleagues crisis, as we have just heard from the hon. Member for
Paula Sherriff and Julie Cooper, whom we miss. It was Gloucester (Richard Graham). More than half of mental
1259 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1260

[Barbara Keeley] of an incredibly high quality, and all those who have
spoken will play a full role in keeping both Front-Bench
health professionals have said that they are too busy to teams on their mettle in the months and years ahead.
provide the level of care they would like to give to their I will start with my hon. Friend the Member for
patients. We need more mental health nurses and more Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison). She spoke deeply
psychiatrists to meet demand. Three out of four children movingly about her father and what drives her politics. I
with a mental health condition do not get the support congratulate her on already bringing the same passion
they need, and others wait months to be seen. Mental and determination to ensure that her constituents’ views
health patients continue to be sent hundreds of miles are heard that she demonstrated in her fantastically
from home because their local NHS does not have the successful election campaign. I suspect that we shall all
beds or the staff to provide the care they need. Placements hear a lot more from her in the months ahead.
are sometimes in private hospitals that provide inadequate My hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Dean
care, and that includes the 2,200 autistic people and Russell) mentioned that he had never really thought he
people with learning disabilities trapped in inappropriate would be here, but having heard him I can see exactly
institutions. Last week, the Prime Minister stated that why he is here and why the people of Watford put their
that number was falling rapidly, but the Secretary of trust in him. In response to one of his comments, I say
State for Health and Social Care, who is now sitting that one’s height—I look at you Madam Deputy Speaker,
here with us, knows that that is not the case. and I think of the Lord Chancellor and my old friend
Eight years after a Conservative Prime Minister promised the former Member for Rutland and Melton—does not
to end the use of such institutions, the speed of change directly correlate to the influence that one can have in
has been glacial. It took the Health and Social Care this place.
Secretary 14 months to resolve the case of Bethany, a The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Amy
young woman with autism held in a series of inappropriate Callaghan) made an eloquent speech setting out
placements, and I remind him—I notice that he is not passionately the principles that govern her politics and
listening—that there are 2,200 more Bethanys who are that she brings to representing her constituents. Her
too often subject to inappropriate seclusion and restraint, dedication to her constituency and to Scotland was
as she was. I was glad to hear the hon. Member for clear in her remarks.
Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) raise the matter of early The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi)
deaths at in-patient units and to hear from my hon. showed that she will be as strong a voice for her constituents
Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood as her predecessor. She spoke very movingly about her
(Helen Hayes) on the need for homes, not hospitals. mother, and I hope she will let me say that I suspect her
From older people left without the care they need to mother would have been deeply and rightly proud if she
children waiting months to see a mental health professional, could have seen and heard her speech in the House
we have seen people across the NHS and social care let today.
down by this Government. Disappointingly, the Queen’s My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and
Speech did not set out measures to fund the NHS and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) spoke powerfully on behalf
social care properly. The Government must provide the of his constituents. He fought an excellent campaign,
necessary funding for both services and, importantly, and he spoke charmingly and well about his predecessor.
must now put forward plans to fix the crisis in social He spoke up for his hospital, and I know he will
care once and for all, as has been promised. I urge right continue to do so, but he was also clear in informing his
hon. and hon. Members to support our amendment to constituents of why they should ignore the scaremongering
guarantee that both the NHS and social care get the they may have heard over many years. In him, they have
resources they need. a strong local champion.
The hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson)
4.51 pm steps into big shoes—indeed, big dancing shoes—and,
The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): It is a pleasure judging by her speech today, I think she will have no
to wind up a debate on such an important issue as our trouble filling them. I hope her contribution today will
NHS and social care, and it was marked by the many be the first of many from her on health-related matters.
well-informed contributions from hon. Members on There may be something about Members for Ealing
both sides of the House. Those contributions reflect the North, but the hon. Member for Ealing North (James
pride we all feel in our NHS and how important it is to Murray) demonstrated that they all display a good
our constituents. sense of humour in this place, and he is continuing that
Before moving on to the maiden speeches, I want to tradition. He was active as a deputy Mayor of London,
highlight the powerful contributions from my right and I am sure he will bring that experience, expertise
hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup and commitment to his new role. I welcome him to the
(James Brokenshire) the former Secretary of the State, House.
my right hon. Friend and for South West Surrey (Jeremy The hon. Member for Enfield North (Feryal Clark)
Hunt), and the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull spoke movingly and powerfully about the diversity of
West and Hessle (Emma Hardy). I can tell the hon. her seat. She spoke about the importance of that diversity,
Lady that I believe we already have a date in the diary and of how we should all protect, encourage and champion
for February, so I look forward to meeting her and such diversity. I am sure she will be a diligent and
discussing the issues she raised. determined champion not only for that but for all her
Given the short time remaining, I intend to focus on constituents.
today’s maiden speeches, so I hope the House will The hon. Member for Luton North (Sarah Owen)
forgive me if I do not take interventions on this one spoke powerfully of the importance of social care and
occasion. All the maiden speeches we heard today were getting it right. Again, she demonstrated a sense of
1261 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1262

humour in her remarks, which I am sure will mark her Brock, Deidre Haigh, Louise
future contributions. We look forward to hearing more Brown, Alan Hamilton, Fabian
from her. Brown, Ms Lyn Hanvey, Neale
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hardy, Emma
Finally, I have known my hon. Friends the Members Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet
for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott), for North West Norfolk Burgon, Richard Harris, Carolyn
(James Wild) and for Peterborough (Paul Bristow) as Byrne, Ian Hayes, Helen
friends over many years, and they have served at the Byrne, rh Liam Hendrick, Sir Mark
heart of Government and in this place in previous roles. Callaghan, Amy Hendry, Drew
They bring that same dedication and talent to serving Cameron, Dr Lisa Hill, Mike
their constituents. They spoke incredibly well, demonstrating Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hillier, Meg
their experience and passion, and I suspect we will be Carden, Dan Hobhouse, Wera
hearing a lot more from all three of them in this House Champion, Sarah Hodge, rh Dame Margaret
and in national politics. Chapman, Douglas Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Charalambous, Bambos Hollern, Kate
The election has broken the deadlock in this House, Cherry, Joanna Hopkins, Rachel
giving our country a majority Government who are not Clark, Feryal Hosie, Stewart
just getting Brexit done but repaying the trust placed in Cooper, Daisy Huq, Dr Rupa
us by the public to deliver the people’s priorities. The Cooper, rh Yvette Hussain, Imran
Opposition Front Bench may speak about their Corbyn, rh Jeremy Jarvis, Dan
commitment to the NHS, but this Government and this Cowan, Ronnie Johnson, Dame Diana
Secretary of State for Health and Social Care are actually Coyle, Neil Johnson, Kim
delivering on our commitments. They are ambitious Crawley, Angela Jones, Darren
commitments, but they are the right commitments. Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Jones, Gerald
cast by Pat McFadden) Jones, rh Mr Kevan
We are delivering the longest and largest cash settlement Cruddas, Jon Jones, Ruth
in the history of the NHS, and we are providing the Cryer, John (Proxy vote cast Jones, Sarah
investment that the NHS itself said it needed. We are by Mark Tami) Kane, Mike
delivering the biggest and boldest hospital building Cummins, Judith Keeley, Barbara
programme in a generation. We are delivering new Cunningham, Alex Khan, Afzal
treatments and new technologies to deliver world-class, Daby, Janet Kinnock, Stephen
world-leading and safer care. We are working to find Davey, rh Sir Edward Lake, Ben
consensus to address the injustices in social care and the David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David
inequalities in mental health. For too long, Governments Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian
of all shades have not given those issues the priority Davies-Jones, Alex Law, Chris
that this Government will now give them. Day, Martyn Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
De Cordova, Marsha Lewis, Clive
It is clear that the Conservative party is the party of Docherty-Hughes, Martin Linden, David
the NHS. We have protected and prioritised the NHS Dodds, Anneliese Lloyd, Tony
for 44 years of its 71-year history when we have been in Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lynch, Holly
government. Under this Conservative one nation Doogan, Dave MacAskill, Kenny
Government, under this Conservative one nation Prime Doughty, Stephen MacNeil, Angus Brendan
Minister and with this Queen’s Speech, we will continue Dowd, Peter Madders, Justin
to do so. These legislative reforms will strengthen our Duffield, Rosie Mahmood, Shabana
NHS and put it on a secure and stable footing for the Eagle, Ms Angela Malhotra, Seema
future. Eagle, Maria Maskell, Rachael
Edwards, Jonathan Matheson, Christian
We will ensure a publicly funded NHS, free at the Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve
point of use and accessible according to need not ability Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain
to pay, and an NHS that is not for sale and never will Elmore, Chris McDonald, Stuart C.
be; an NHS true to its founding principles but, crucially, Eshalomi, Florence McDonnell, rh John
an NHS that is ready for the challenges of the future. It Fellows, Marion McFadden, rh Mr Pat
is there not only for our generation but for future Ferrier, Margaret McGinn, Conor
generations. The NHS belongs to all of us; it is the Fletcher, Colleen McKinnell, Catherine
people’s NHS and this Government are there for it. I Flynn, Stephen (Proxy vote McLaughlin, Anne
commend this Queen’s Speech to the House. cast by Patrick Grady) McMahon, Jim
Foxcroft, Vicky McMorrin, Anna
Question put, That the amendment be made. Foy, Mary Kelly Mearns, Ian
The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 313. Furniss, Gill Miliband, rh Edward
Gardiner, Barry Mishra, Navendu
Division No. 15] [4.59 pm Gibson, Patricia Monaghan, Carol
Gill, Preet Kaur Moran, Layla
AYES
Girvan, Paul Morgan, Mr Stephen
Abbott, rh Ms Diane Benn, rh Hilary Glindon, Mary Morris, Grahame
Abrahams, Debbie Betts, Mr Clive Grady, Patrick Murray, James
Ali, Rushanara Black, Mhairi Grant, Peter Nandy, Lisa
Ali, Tahir Blackman, Kirsty Gray, Neil Newlands, Gavin
Amesbury, Mike Blake, Olivia Green, Kate Nichols, Charlotte
Ashworth, Jonathan Blomfield, Paul Greenwood, Lilian Nicolson, John
Bardell, Hannah Bonnar, Steven Greenwood, Margaret Norris, Alex
Barker, Paula Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Griffith, Nia O’Hara, Brendan
Begum, Apsana Brennan, Kevin Gwynne, Andrew Olney, Sarah
1263 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 Debate on the Address 1264

Onwurah, Chi Sobel, Alex Crosbie, Virginia Henry, Darren

Oppong-Asare, Abena Spellar, rh John Crouch, Tracey Higginbotham, Antony
Osamor, Kate Starmer, rh Keir Daly, James Hinds, rh Damian
Osborne, Kate Stephens, Chris Davies, David T. C. Hoare, Simon
Oswald, Kirsten Streeting, Wes Davies, Gareth Hollinrake, Kevin
Owatemi, Taiwo Sultana, Zarah Davies, Dr James Hollobone, Mr Philip
Owen, Sarah Tami, rh Mark Davies, Mims Holloway, Adam
Paisley, Ian Tarry, Sam Davies, Philip Holmes, Paul
Peacock, Stephanie Thomas, Gareth Davis, rh Mr David Howell, Paul
Pennycook, Matthew Thomas-Symonds, Nick Davison, Dehenna Hudson, Dr Neil
Perkins, Mr Toby Thompson, Owen Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, Eddie
Phillipson, Bridget Thomson, Richard Dines, Miss Sarah Hunt, Jane
Pollard, Luke Thornberry, rh Emily Docherty, Leo Hunt, rh Jeremy
Qureshi, Yasmin Timms, rh Stephen Donelan, Michelle Hunt, Tom
Rayner, Angela Twigg, Derek Dorries, Ms Nadine Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Reed, Steve Twist, Liz Double, Steve Jenkin, Sir Bernard
Rees, Christina Vaz, rh Valerie Dowden, rh Oliver Jenkinson, Mark
Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Webbe, Claudia Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea
by Bambos Charalambous) West, Catherine Drax, Richard Johnson, rh Boris
Reynolds, Jonathan Western, Matt Drummond, Mrs Flick Johnson, Dr Caroline
Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Whitehead, Dr Alan Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth
Rimmer, Ms Marie Whitford, Dr Philippa Duguid, David Johnston, David
Rodda, Matt Whitley, Mick Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jones, Andrew
Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Williams, Hywel Dunne, rh Philip Jones, rh Mr David
Saville Roberts, rh Liz Wilson, Munira Eastwood, Mark Jones, Fay
Shannon, Jim Wilson, rh Sammy Edwards, Ruth Jones, Mr Marcus
Sharma, Mr Virendra Winter, Beth Ellis, rh Michael Jupp, Simon
Sheerman, Mr Barry Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Kawczynski, Daniel
Wishart, Pete
Sheppard, Tommy Eustice, George Kearns, Alicia
Yasin, Mohammad
Siddiq, Tulip Evans, Dr Luke Keegan, Gillian
Zeichner, Daniel
Slaughter, Andy Evennett, rh Sir David Knight, rh Sir Greg
Smith, Cat Tellers for the Ayes: Everitt, Ben Knight, Julian
Smith, Nick Jeff Smith and Fabricant, Michael Kruger, Danny
Smyth, Karin Jessica Morden Farris, Laura Lamont, John
Fell, Simon Largan, Robert
Fletcher, Katherine Leadsom, rh Andrea
NOES
Fletcher, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward
Adams, Nigel Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Nick Lewer, Andrew
Afolami, Bim Brady, Sir Graham Ford, Vicky Lewis, rh Brandon
Afriyie, Adam Brereton, Jack Fox, rh Dr Liam Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Aiken, Nickie Bridgen, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Loder, Chris
Aldous, Peter Bristow, Paul Freeman, George Logan, Mark
Allan, Lucy Brokenshire, rh James Freer, Mike Longhi, Marco
Amess, Sir David Browne, Anthony Fuller, Richard Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast
Anderson, Lee Bruce, Fiona Fysh, Mr Marcus by Lee Rowley)
Anderson, Stuart Buchan, Felicity Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack
Andrew, Stuart Burghart, Alex Gibson, Peter Lord, Mr Jonathan
Ansell, Caroline Burns, rh Conor Gideon, Jo Loughton, Tim
Argar, Edward Butler, Rob Glen, John Mackinlay, Craig
Atherton, Sarah Cairns, rh Alun Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Mackrory, Cherilyn
Atkins, Victoria Carter, Andy Gove, rh Michael Maclean, Rachel
Bacon, Mr Gareth Cartlidge, James Graham, Richard Mak, Alan
Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Cash, Sir William Gray, James Malthouse, Kit
cast by Leo Docherty) Caulfield, Maria Grayling, rh Chris Mann, Scott
Bailey, Shaun Chalk, Alex Green, Chris Marson, Julie
Baillie, Siobhan Chishti, Rehman Green, rh Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa
Baker, Duncan Chope, Sir Christopher Griffith, Andrew Mayhew, Jerome
Baker, Mr Steve Churchill, Jo Griffiths, Kate Maynard, Paul
Baldwin, Harriett Clark, rh Greg Grundy, James McCartney, Jason
Baron, Mr John Clarke, Mr Simon Gullis, Jonathan McCartney, Karl
Baynes, Simon Clarke, Theo Halfon, rh Robert McPartland, Stephen
Bell, Aaron Clarke-Smith, Brendan Hall, Luke Menzies, Mark
Benton, Scott Clarkson, Chris Hammond, Stephen Merriman, Huw
Beresford, Sir Paul Cleverly, rh James Hancock, rh Matt Metcalfe, Stephen
Berry, rh Jake Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Harper, rh Mr Mark Millar, Robin
Bhatti, Saqib Colburn, Elliot Hart, Sally-Ann Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Blackman, Bob Collins, Damian Hart, rh Simon Milling, Amanda
Blunt, Crispin Costa, Alberto Hayes, rh Sir John Mills, Nigel
Bone, Mr Peter Courts, Robert Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Bottomley, Sir Peter Coutinho, Claire Heappey, James Mohindra, Gagan
Bowie, Andrew Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Moore, Damien
Bradley, Ben Crabb, rh Stephen Henderson, Gordon Moore, Robbie
1265 Debate on the Address 16 JANUARY 2020 1266

Mordaunt, rh Penny Smith, rh Julian BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (PRIVATE

Morris, Anne Marie Solloway, Amanda MEMBERS’ BILLS)
Morris, James Spencer, Dr Ben
Resolved,
Morrissey, Joy Spencer, rh Mark
Morton, Wendy Stafford, Alexander That Private Members’Bills shall have precedence over Government
Mullan, Dr Kieran Stephenson, Andrew business on 13 March 2020, 27 March 2020, 24 April 2020,
15 May 2020, 12 June 2020, 26 June 2020, 10 July 2020, 11 September
Mumby-Croft, Holly Stevenson, Jane
2020, 16 October 2020, 30 October 2020, 27 November 2020,
Mundell, rh David Stevenson, John
15 January 2021 and 29 January 2021.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stewart, Bob
Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Stride, rh Mel
Neill, Sir Robert Stuart, Graham
Nici, Lia Sturdy, Julian PROXY VOTING
Nokes, rh Caroline Sunak, rh Rishi Resolved,
Norman, rh Jesse Sunderland, James
That the Resolution of 28 January 2019 (Proxy Voting
O’Brien, Neil Swayne, rh Sir Desmond (Implementation)) shall apply as if, for the words “12 months” in
Offord, Dr Matthew Syms, Sir Robert paragraphs (4) and (6), there were substituted “18 months”.—
Opperman, Guy Thomas, Derek (Mr Marcus Jones.)
Parish, Neil Throup, Maggie
Paterson, rh Mr Owen Timpson, Edward
Pawsey, Mark Tolhurst, Kelly
Penning, rh Sir Mike Tomlinson, Justin ADJOURNMENT (FEBRUARY, EASTER,
Penrose, John Tomlinson, Michael MAY DAY, WHITSUN, SUMMER AND
Philp, Chris Tracey, Craig CONFERENCE RECESS)
Pincher, rh Christopher Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing
Poulter, Dr Dan Trott, Laura Order No. 25),
Pow, Rebecca Truss, rh Elizabeth
That this House, at its rising on Thursday 13 February 2020,
Prentis, Victoria Tugendhat, Tom do adjourn until Monday 24 February 2020; at its rising on
Pursglove, Tom Vara, Mr Shailesh Tuesday 31 March 2020, do adjourn until Tuesday 21 April 2020;
Quin, Jeremy Vickers, Martin at its rising on Wednesday 6 May 2020, do adjourn until Monday
Randall, Tom Vickers, Matt 11 May 2020; at its rising on Thursday 21 May 2020, do adjourn
Redwood, rh John Villiers, rh Theresa until Tuesday 2 June 2020; at its rising on Tuesday 21 July 2020,
Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wakeford, Christian do adjourn until Tuesday 8 September 2020; and at its rising on
Richards, Nicola Walker, Sir Charles Thursday 17 September 2020, do adjourn until Tuesday 13 October
Richardson, Angela Walker, Mr Robin 2020.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Roberts, Rob Wallis, Dr Jamie Question agreed to.
Robertson, Mr Laurence Warburton, David
Robinson, Mary Warman, Matt
Rosindell, Andrew Webb, Suzanne
Rowley, Lee Whittaker, Craig STANDING ORDERS ETC. (COMMITTEE ON
Russell, Dean Whittingdale, rh Mr John EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION)
Rutley, David Wiggin, Bill Ordered,
Sambrook, Gary Wild, James That the following temporary Standing Order and consequent
Saxby, Selaine Williams, Craig modifications to Standing Orders and resolutions of the House
Scully, Paul Williamson, rh Gavin shall have effect for twelve months from the date of this Order:—
Seely, Bob Wood, Mike A: Committee on Exiting the European Union (Temporary
Selous, Andrew Wragg, Mr William Standing order)
Shapps, rh Grant Wright, rh Jeremy (1) There shall be a select committee, to be called the Committee
Sharma, rh Alok on Exiting the European Union, to examine the expenditure,
Young, Jacob
Shelbrooke, rh Alec administration and policy of the Department for Exiting the
Zahawi, Nadhim
Smith, Chloe European Union and related matters falling within the responsibilities
Smith, Greg (Proxy vote cast Tellers for the Noes: of associated public bodies.
by John Whittingdale) Iain Stewart and
(2) The committee shall consist of no more than twenty-one
Smith, Henry Nigel Huddleston Members; and the provisions of Standing Order No. 121(2) shall
apply to motions for the nomination and discharge of Members
Question accordingly negatived. to and from the committee as if it were a committee not established
under a temporary Standing Order.
(3) Unless the House otherwise orders, each Member nominated
5.16 pm to the committee shall continue to be a member of it for as long as
The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 9(3)). this Order has effect.
Ordered, That the debate be resumed Monday 20 January. (4) The committee shall have the power to appoint a sub-committee.
(5) The committee and any sub-committee appointed by it
shall have the assistance of the Counsel to the Speaker.
Business without Debate (6) The committee and any sub-committee appointed by it
shall have power to appoint legal advisers and specialist advisers
either to supply information which is not readily available or to
TERM LIMITS elucidate matters of complexity within the committee’s order of
Motion made, reference.
That, for the remainder of the present Parliament, the provisions (7) The committee and any sub-committee appointed by it
of Standing Order No. 122A (Term limits for chairs of select shall have power to send for persons, papers and records, to sit
committees) shall not have effect.—(Mr Marcus Jones.) notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, to adjourn from
place to place and to report from time to time the evidence taken
Hon. Members: Object. before them.
1267 Business without Debate 16 JANUARY 2020 Business without Debate 1268

(8) The quorum of the committee shall be six and the quorum
of any sub-committee appointed by it shall be three. Select committees appointed under Standing Order No. 152
(9) The committee shall have power to report from time to Business, Energy and Industrial Labour
time, and any sub-committee appointed by it shall have power to Strategy
report to the committee from time to time. Defence Conservative
B: Election of Select Committee Chairs (10) Standing Order Digital, Culture, Media and Conservative
No. 122B (Election of select committee chairs) is amended in Sport
paragraph (1), by inserting, in the appropriate place, “the Committee Education Conservative
on Exiting the European Union”. Environment, Food and Rural Conservative
C: European Committees (11) Standing Order No. 119 (European Affairs
Committees) is amended as follows: (a) in paragraph (4) by Foreign Affairs Conservative
inserting after “departments)” the words “, or the Committee on
Health and Social Care Conservative
Exiting the European Union”; and (b) in the Table in paragraph
(7), in respect of European Committee B, by inserting, in the Home Affairs Labour
appropriate place, “Exiting the European Union”. Housing, Communities and Labour
D: European Scrutiny Committee (12) Paragraph (12) of Standing Local Government
Order No. 143 (European Scrutiny Committee) is amended by International Development Labour
inserting, in the appropriate place, “the Committee on Exiting the International Trade Scottish National Party
European Union”. Justice Conservative
E: Public Bodies: Draft orders (13) Standing Order No. 152K Northern Ireland Affairs Conservative
(Public bodies: draft orders) is amended as follows: (a) after
sub-paragraph (b) to paragraph (1) to insert: “(c) in respect of a Science and Technology Conservative
draft order laid by a Minister in the Department for Exiting the Scottish Affairs Scottish National Party
European Union, the Committee on Exiting the European Union”; Transport Conservative
and (b) in paragraph (2) by inserting after “departments)” the Treasury Conservative
words “, or the Committee on Exiting the European Union”.
Welsh Affairs Conservative
F: Positions for which additional salaries are payable for the
Women and Equalities Conservative
purposesof section4A(2)of theParliamentaryStandardsAct2009(14)
The resolution of the House of 19 March 2013 (Positions for Work and Pensions Labour
which additional salaries are payable for the purposes of section 4A(2)
of theParliamentaryStandardsAct2009)isamended,inparagraph(1)(a), Other specified select committees
by inserting, in the appropriate place, “the Committee on Exiting Environmental Audit Conservative
the European Union”.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Exiting the European Union Labour
Petitions Labour
SELECT COMMITTEES: Procedure Conservative
ALLOCATION OF CHAIRS Public Accounts Labour
Ordered, Public Administration and Conservative
Constitutional Affairs
That, pursuant to Standing Order No 122B (Election of Committee
Chairs), the chairs of those select committees subject to the Standards Labour
Standing Order be allocated as indicated in the following Table: —(Mr Marcus Jones.)
1269 16 JANUARY 2020 1270

Deputy Speaker’s Statement Protection for New Home Buyers

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House
5.18 pm do now adjourn.—(Mr Marcus Jones.)
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton):
Now that the House has agreed to the allocation of 5.19 pm
Committee Chairs, it may help Members if I announce
that Mr Speaker has decided that the elections will take Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I applied
place on Wednesday 29 January. Nominations will close for this debate in anticipation of the Government’s
at 4 pm on Monday 27 January. The election of the plans to bring forward measures in this Parliament
Chair of the Backbench Business Committee will take relating to building standards and safety. In recent
place at the same time and on the same timetable as for years, I have seen numerous examples in my constituency—
the other Committees’ Chairs. Nomination forms are [Interruption.]
available from the Table Office, the Vote Office and the
Procedural Hub, but need not be used as long as the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton):
Standing Order requirements are met. Order. Could Members who are leaving the Chamber
do so quietly, because the hon. Lady is trying to make
her speech?
INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS
AUTHORITY Kate Green: In recent years, I have seen numerous
Ordered, examples in my constituency of shoddy and sometimes
That Marion Fellows, Dame Cheryl Gillan, Sir Desmond downright dangerous workmanship, and a lack of redress
Swayne, Valerie Vaz and Sir Charles Walker be appointed to the for homeowners. The all-party parliamentary group for
Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards excellence in the built environment highlighted similar
Authority until the end of the present Parliament, in pursuance of issues in reports in 2016 and 2018. I therefore welcome
paragraph 1(d) of Schedule 3 to the Parliamentary Standards the announcement in the Queen’s Speech of the
Act 2009, as amended.—(Mr Marcus Jones.) Government’s intention to act. I hope that, by sharing
some of my constituents’ experiences and concerns, I
can urge speedy progress, and help to inform the Minister’s
thinking as policy is developed. I also hope that he will
carefully consider the issues relating to the regulatory
regime, enforcement and the operation of warranties
that I will raise tonight.
May I start by placing on record my thanks to
Martin Scott and Paul Hargreaves of solicitors Walker
Morris, and Geoff Peter of New Build Guru, who have
all been generous with their expertise in helping me to
prepare for this debate? I also thank my constituents for
bringing their concerns to my attention. They have
shown great fortitude, and a determination that the
problems that they have endured should not be suffered
by other homeowners in years to come.
Let me give the House some idea of the defects
experienced by my constituents. At a development in
Stretford—undertaken by Mr Selcuk Pinarbasi through
his family companies Pino Design and Build, and Talbot
Gate Developments—homeowners showed me numerous
defects that they found when they moved into their new
homes, including unfinished and damaged bathrooms
and fittings; floors, skirting boards, bannisters, windows
and doors out of true; the measurements of a downstairs
WC not complying with statutory requirements to enable
wheelchair access; breaches of electrical safety regulations;
and an incorrectly fitted gas sleeve.
In another development, in Old Trafford, buyers
found that there had been failure by the developer to
comply with conditions relating to external works including
boundary treatments, security, lighting, landscaping and
waste disposal. That developer, Mr Jason Alexander,
was also behind the development of Aura Court, an
apartment block on the border of my constituency and
Manchester city centre that has been the subject of a
“Granada Reports”programme highlighting the dangerous
and incomplete state of the block, such that Greater
Manchester Fire and Rescue has put a number of
enforcement notices in place. Issues there include damaged
fire doors; cladding not installed on external walls and
1271 Protection for New Home Buyers 16 JANUARY 2020 Protection for New Home Buyers 1272

[Kate Green] and Neston (Justin Madders) mentioned. But as my

constituents have found, all too often that does not
walkways; decking not installed on walkways; unauthorised offer the protection they expect. Warranty providers are
window installation, affecting fire safety standards; able to carry out a dual role as both approved inspector
waterlogging on escape routes; and dangerous staircase and warranty provider. That surely creates a conflict of
treads. Even so, the block remains occupied, despite its interest. Insurers have an incentive to suppress knowledge
shoddy state. of defects, particularly when they may give rise to very
large claims. Exclusions to the cover often leave significant
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): risk with the homeowner, so the inspector may not even
This is a really important debate. I think lots of Members bother to inspect every property in a development—
will have examples of such issues in their constituency. arguably, there is insufficient incentive to do so.
My constituents have also experienced a real difficulty Perhaps, therefore, we should not be surprised to
getting the guarantees behind these developments actually hear from my hon. Friend about his constituents’
enforced. Premier Guarantee, which is apparently endorsed experiences with Premier Guarantee or that the main
by all household lenders, has been in dispute with some warranty provider in the UK, NHBC, told the all-party
of my constituents for three years over a series of group in 2015 that of all the homeowners it covers,
defects in the property—defects that are accepted by fewer than 5% contact NHBC with issues that result in
Premier. Premier is now suggesting that the case needs a valid claim under the warranty. That does not of
to go to independent arbitration—at my constituents’ course tell us how many buyers try to claim under their
expense—to resolve the issues, even though it accepts warranty but are unsuccessful. It conceals the fact that
that the defects exist. Does that not show a fundamental warranty providers are extremely reluctant to rectify
need for the reform of the system? defects, as the onus will fall on them to recover the cost
of doing so from the developer. Although defects the
Kate Green: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend,
builder has failed or refused to deal with can be referred
who does excellent work through the all-party parliamentary
to NHBC’s resolution service, by which it decides which
group on leasehold and commonhold reform. I will be
claims to accept or reject, New Build Guru suggests
saying a little more about the deficiencies of the warranty
that house builders and NHBC routinely liaise directly
arrangements, including those provided by Premier, in a
with each other without notice or reference to the
few moments.
policyholder, and privately decide between them which
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The National House claims will be accepted, thus avoiding both cost for the
Building Council in Northern Ireland gives some guarantees developer and the need for NHBC to incur expense to
to people who buy houses, although it may not always recover its costs from the builder.
be able to have the enforcement powers that it would For all practical purposes, a homeowner cannot challenge
like to. Does the hon. Lady agree that there is also a the warranty provider if it refuses to accept their claim.
responsibility on banks to intervene and help when it The reason for this, as one of my constituents has
comes to mortgage repayments on a house that is not recently discovered, is that the resolution service is not a
finished correctly? regulated insurance activity. If NHBC rejects a claim
and the homebuyer wishes to challenge the refusal, the
Kate Green: I will say a little about mortgage lenders Financial Ombudsman Service has no jurisdiction to
later in my speech. deal with such complaints. Homeowners may be able to
The examples I have given the House are not isolated. complain to the Construction Industry Council, which
Indeed, Mr Alexander is notorious for a number of regulates approved inspectors, but failing that their only
poor-quality developments across Greater Manchester option—mostly costly and impractical—is to go to law.
and beyond. But it appears that developers can continue
to develop new properties that fail to meet buildings Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): I am
standards, sometimes to a dangerous degree, while avoiding grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing this matter to
taking any action to address defects in their previous the attention of the House. My constituent Sarah bought
developments. Local authorities lack resources for inspection a property off-plan from Bellway Homes in West Didsbury
and enforcement. They cannot take developers’ previous and ran into a whole host of problems. She is very
failures into account to refuse them planning permission supportive of the idea, which my hon. Friend has
for future applications. Unscrupulous developers are mentioned in the past, that homeowners should be able
free to continue to build with impunity, while buyers are to retain a snagging fund, governed by an independent
left without redress. team and possibly held in an escrow account so that it
How can it be right that such poor-quality buildings can be fairly administered. Would my hon. Friend support
can be constructed, sold and occupied? How on earth such a system?
are they receiving building regulations certificates?
Section 57(1) of the Building Act 1984 means that it is Kate Green: I most certainly would support that
an offence “recklessly” to issue such certificates, but it suggestion.
seems that they are being issued for clearly substandard There are a number of other actions that the Government
buildings. I wonder whether the Minister can tell the could take to address the slippery state of affairs that
House how many successful convictions have been brought exists around warranties. Will the Minister consider, for
under this legislation, because I have not been able to example, standardisation of warranty policies, with the
identify a single example. use of clear and unambiguous language, and an end to
Faced with defects and developers’ refusals to rectify unreasonable exclusions? Would the Government consider
them, buyers may seek to rely on their buildings warranty amending the Housing Grants, Construction and
cover, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port Regeneration Act 1996 so that warranty policies are
1273 Protection for New Home Buyers 16 JANUARY 2020 Protection for New Home Buyers 1274

brought within the meaning of “construction contracts” opponent. Although conditional fee arrangements are
under section 104 of the Act? That would mean that still possible, success fees and after-the-event insurance
disputes could at least be settled by the relatively quicker costs cannot be recovered from the losing party. This is
and less expensive route of arbitration, rather than a big issue for defects actions, since these costs can leave
people needing to pursue a court claim. successful litigants so out of pocket that they still
The Minister will know that the problems I have cannot afford to carry out the work to remedy the
described are compounded for those who own leasehold defects that were the subject of the case in the first
property. Management companies should be under a place. Will the Minister press his counterparts in the
positive duty to act in leaseholders’ best interests, but Ministry of Justice to exclude defects actions for residential
often they are powerless to claim on the leaseholder’s property from the prohibition on recovery of success
behalf under the defects cover that is taken out by and fees and after-the-event insurance costs so that a successful
for the benefit of the developer and his design team, owner can use the damages awarded to carry out repairs?
usually for a 10-year period, to cover total or partial The operation of company law also seems to assist
collapse or some other latent structural defect. The rather than hinder unscrupulous developers, who can
position of leaseholders could be strengthened through set up a new company for each development, then place
new legislation to make it compulsory for management the company in liquidation, leaving defects unaddressed
companies, and leaseholders, to benefit from decennial and sometimes avoiding tax and money-laundering rules
insurance, specifically requiring such insurance to be in the process too. One constituent has found neither
taken out, specifying minimum levels of cover and the Companies House nor the Insolvency Service very willing
term of the insurance, and giving leaseholders and to act to prevent this from happening, even when the
management companies third-party rights to claim directly same developer has blatantly and repeatedly breached
under these policies. registration and company law requirements. How will
The Government could also strengthen the Defective the Ministry work with Her Majesty’s Revenue and
Premises Act 1972. This legislation extends protection Customs and the Department for Business, Energy and
for a period of six years—a period that is obviously out Industrial Strategy to ensure that company law operates
of line not only with decennial insurance cover but with robustly against such practices by developers?
actions in tort, where claims are allowed for a three-year While I am aware of attempts by the industry to
period from the date of knowledge, subject to an overall address homebuyers’ concerns through the five-star system,
maximum of 15 years under the Latent Damage Act 1986. of proposals for a new homes ombudsman, of the
The limitations period in the Defective Premises Act Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors’ intention to
could be extended to be consistent with tort actions to draft new guidance for its members and regulated firms
give owners more protection. This is particularly important on the inspection of new residential building works and
following the case of Murphy v. Brentwood District snagging, and of UK Finance’s role in relation to
Council, which means that the residential property owner mortgage lenders and improving building standards,
cannot claim for economic loss in tort. these protections will still be insufficient.
There is a further adjustment to the Defective Premises The more I have looked into this matter, the more
Act that I invite the Minister to consider. Section 1(1) shocked I have been by the extent of the problem, the
sets a test that work should be done utter unscrupulousness of some developers and the
“in a workmanlike or, as the case may be, professional manner, absence of meaningful protection for homebuyers, many
with proper materials…so that as regards that work the dwelling of whom are making the most significant purchase of
will be fit for habitation when completed.” their lives. I am sure the Minister will recognise from
That is a high bar when measured against the relevant this brief description of the problems experienced by
test in consumer legislation, which refers to goods needing my constituents and those of my hon. Friends that the
to case for holistic, far-reaching, regulatory and legislative
“meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider reform is both urgent and compelling and that any
satisfactory” measures introduced must have real teeth. The
Government’s stated intention to act to strengthen buildings
under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. standards and safety is a real opportunity, and I look
forward to the Minister’s response.
Justin Madders: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Kate Green: I will not, if my hon. Friend will forgive 5.36 pm

me, because I think we are going to be tight on time for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing,
the Minister to respond, and I am covering—we are all Communities and Local Government (Luke Hall): May I
covering—a lot of territory. start by congratulating the hon. Member for Stretford
Is it right, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the law and Urmston (Kate Green) on securing the debate and
should offer more protection when you buy a toaster on making such an informed, well-researched speech? I
than when you buy a house? Why is not the standard know that she has worked hard to raise the issues that
similar in relation to the purchase of residential property? new homebuyers experience many times in the House,
I would like to mention two issues that are outside the and I thank her for the opportunity to debate this.
direct remit of the Minister’s Department but that none This Government have been delivering on the new
the less impact on the overall picture of protection for homes that this country needs. In 2018-19, the net
homeowners. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment additions were the highest since 1987. As we deliver new
of Offenders Act 2012 means that, even if a householder homes, we must ensure that they are of higher quality
does successfully pursue a defects claim in court, they and higher standards and that homebuyers are treated
may struggle to recover costs from their unsuccessful fairly. This Government have been clear that safety,
1275 Protection for New Home Buyers 16 JANUARY 2020 Protection for New Home Buyers 1276

[Luke Hall] We are genuinely grateful to the hon. Lady for her
input into this important matter. As we continue to
quality and fairness are our priorities. When people develop the policy in the weeks ahead and bring forward
move into a home, they should have confidence that legislation, I will make sure that her comments during
they can live their lives without the stress of unfair fees, this debate are taken into account. I would like to invite
safety issues or poor-quality workmanship. The protection her, if she so wishes, to come to the Department, sit
of new homebuyers must, and will, improve. We expect down with officials and me, and talk about how we can
all housing developers to deliver good-quality housing, make sure this Bill is effective as it can be.
to deliver it on time and to treat homebuyers fairly. We have committed to implementing all the
We are determined to learn the lessons from the recommendations of the phase 1 report from the
Grenfell Tower fire and to strengthen the whole regulatory independent Grenfell Tower public inquiry led by
system for building safety, including fundamental changes Martin Moore-Bick. The Government will introduce a
to the regulatory framework for high rise-residential fire safety Bill to implement the relevant legislative
buildings. That will involve a fundamental change in recommendations. This includes putting it beyond doubt
both the regulatory framework and industry culture, that the fire safety order will require building owners
creating a more accountable system. Our aim is to and managers of multi-occupied residential premises of
change the industry culture to ensure that there is any height fully to consider and mitigate the risks of
accountability and responsibility and that residents are any external wall systems and fire doors. The Bill will
safe in their homes and have a stronger voice in the also strengthen the relevant enforcement powers to hold
system. We will also legislate to close gaps in redress building owners and managers to account.
services, so that consumers are better protected and can I am grateful to the hon. Lady for bringing to my
navigate the market with confidence. attention the case of the specific developer that she
There is nothing more important than being and mentioned in her contribution. I know that her constituents
feeling safe in your own home. This Government will be and all prospective homebuyers and tenants will want
putting residents at the heart of the new, stronger to note that the enhanced regime we are planning will
system of building safety. To ensure that all people are have stronger protections at various stages of the building
safe and secure in their homes, the Government are process. These protections will ensure that outstanding
committed to bringing forward legislation that delivers issues are resolved before buildings are occupied. I
meaningful and lasting change. The building safety Bill understand that the specific case mentioned is currently
will put in place an enhanced safety framework for under appeal, and therefore I cannot comment at this
high-rise residential buildings, taking forward all the stage. However, I will follow the outcome of the legal
recommendations from Dame Judith Hackitt’s independent proceedings with interest.
review of building regulations and fire safety, and in
some areas going even further.
Kate Green: In fact, Aura Court is not under appeal,
The enhanced safety framework will provide clearer but the same developer is in relation to another
accountability and stronger duties for those responsible development. However, the general point applies that
for the safety of high-rise buildings throughout the this developer has repeatedly been able to erect substandard
building’s design, construction and occupation. We will buildings and have them occupied while in very poor
include clear competence requirements to maintain high condition. Clearly, we need a legislative regime that
standards. The hon. Lady should note that we have means homeowners do not have to keep trying to go
consulted on the details of this regime, including a back to court to get these matters resolved.
proposal that buildings will need to go through a new
gateway process, in which duty holders will have to
prove to the regulator that their building is safe and Luke Hall: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for putting
ready for occupation. Building owners will be required that point on the record. I hope that is one of the things
to demonstrate that risks are identified, understood and we can discuss further in the weeks ahead.
effectively managed on an ongoing basis. Those responsible We know that a stronger regulatory system is necessary,
for building safety will not simply be able to tick boxes but it will not be enough to deliver the required cultural
to discharge their responsibilities. change, so we need industry to show the same leadership
The hon. Lady speaks incredibly well on behalf of it has shown in successfully making building sites much
her constituents, and I am proud that the building safer for workers over recent years. They must also
safety Bill will give residents a stronger voice in the prioritise residents’safety in the construction of high-quality
system, ensuring that their concerns are never ignored buildings.
and that they fully understand how they can contribute The Government welcome the action we have already
to maintaining safety in their buildings. We will be seen from industry, especially the early adopters group,
strengthening enforcement and sanctions to deter non- which has spearheaded the building safety charter. The
compliance with the new regime to hold the right people charter demonstrates the commitment to putting building
to account when mistakes are made and ensure they are safety first, ahead of all other priorities. All those
not repeated. The building safety Bill will include a new across the industry that are involved in the life cycle of a
stronger and clearer framework to provide national building should follow suit. The industry-led competence
oversight of construction products to ensure all products steering group has developed proposals for raising the
meet high performance standards. There will be a competence of those working on buildings in scope of
new system to oversee the built environment, with local the new regime. We support the group’s proposals for
enforcement agencies and national regulators working an overarching system for competence oversight and
together to ensure that the safety of all buildings have included them in our consultation as part of our
is improved. package of measures to improve building safety. To
1277 Protection for New Home Buyers 16 JANUARY 2020 Protection for New Home Buyers 1278

drive progress further, the industry safety steering group, but there is no such requirement for freeholders who do
chaired by Dame Judith Hackitt, is holding industry to not use an agent. This change will give more leaseholders
account for making practical and cultural change happen. access to redress in the future.
The hon. Lady raised the issue of leasehold. The There is much reform still to come, but we have taken
debate has a particular bearing on leaseholders, and I action already. We have worked with industry to secure
am grateful to the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and commitments to help existing leaseholders through our
Neston (Justin Madders) in that respect as well. We industry pledge. The leasehold sector is clearly ripe for
know that leaseholders can too often face unfair practices, reform, and I assure the House that the Government
poor management of properties and difficulties in taking are fully committed to ensuring that such reform can
action to address problems. We are clear that there is no happen.
place in a modern housing market for unfair leasehold Let me turn to the new homes ombudsman. Problems
practices, and we are undertaking a comprehensive in the current redress system threaten the quality of the
programme to reform the leasehold system to ensure experience and product for new homebuyers. The
homebuyers are treated fairly and protected from abuse Government are dedicated to ensuring that homebuyers
and poor service. are treated fairly when things go wrong, and for developers
We are moving forward with legislation to reform the to up their game and get things right from the beginning.
leasehold sector. This includes the ban on new leasehold The hon. Lady raised important points about warranties,
homes, restricting future leases to ground rent of zero including warranty exclusions, the provision of clear
financial value and closing legal loopholes to prevent information to consumers, and the resolution services
further unfair evictions. We are committed to helping of warranty providers. It is the responsibility of the
current and future leaseholders. We welcome the recent Financial Conduct Authority to regulate new build
report of the Law Commission on enfranchisement warranties and protect consumers. If a consumer is
valuation. This included options on how to make the unhappy with the warranty provider’s action, they can
cost of buying a freehold or extending a lease cheaper, contact the Financial Ombudsman Service for free. I
and we are now considering those in detail. We look agree that consumers must be provided with clearer
forward to further reports from the Law Commission information on warranty cover, and we are considering
on the broader enfranchisement process, reinvigorating how that is best achieved.
commonhold, and improving the right to manage later The hon. Lady made a valid point about potential
this spring. conflicts of interest where approved inspectors have
We are deeply aware of the issues surrounding onerous dual roles. Dame Judith Hackitt recommended that
ground rent and other unfair terms which some leaseholders where they are involved in regulatory oversight, an
are facing. We encouraged the Competition and Markets approved inspector must be completely independent
Authority to investigate the extent of any mis-selling of of the duty holder. The Government accept that
leasehold properties, and we look forward to receiving recommendation and are working with the Joint Regulators
its findings. Group, representatives of approved inspectors, and local
authorities, to identify ways of minimising conflicts
Justin Madders: Will the Minister give way? of interest and ensure sufficient regulatory capability
and capacity under the new system. The industry has
Luke Hall: I will not if that is okay, because of time. acknowledged many of those problems and is working
The independent working group reported last year, to improve consumer confidence and trust.
and we are considering its recommendations. We will In conclusion—time is short—the Government are
announce our next steps in due course. It can be expensive committed to ensuring that the housing market works
to take legal action against a landlord when that is for everyone. That means building more of the right
necessary, and we are deeply concerned that leaseholders homes in the right places, and ensuring that when
sometimes have to pay their landlord’s legal costs, even consumers purchase a new home, they have the protection
if they win the case. That can lead to leaseholders facing they deserve and need. I assure hon. Members that as
bills that are higher than the charges they were seeking we work towards our ambition of building 300,000 new
to challenge in the first place, and it can also deter homes a year, residents in all tenures are safe. They must
leaseholders from taking their concerns to a tribunal at be treated fairly and be able to live in sustainable,
all. The Government believe that leaseholders should high-quality homes.
not be subject to unjustified legal costs, and we will Once again I am hugely grateful to the hon. Lady for
close the legal loopholes that allow that to happen. her contribution, and we will make sure it is taken into
Again, I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s contribution account. I hope that we can organise those meetings in
on that matter, and perhaps we can take the issue the week ahead and see what we can incorporate. I look
forward in the weeks ahead. forward to the Government driving forward that vital
Our plans to reform the housing sector will be a reform.
collaborative effort with colleagues across Government. Question put and agreed to.
We are also closing a gap in redress for leaseholders by
extending mandatory membership of a redress scheme
to freeholders who do not use a managing agent. Managing 5.48 pm
agents are already required to belong to a redress scheme, House adjourned.
1WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 2WS

Written Statements BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL

STRATEGY

Friday 20 December 2019 Post-EU Energy Council Update

CABINET OFFICE The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth
(Kwasi Kwarteng): The UK did not attend the EU
Energy Council in Brussels on 4 December 2019.
Advance from the Contingencies Fund
The UK Government have decided that from
1 September until exit day, UK Ministers and officials
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster will only attend EU meetings where the UK has
General (Oliver Dowden): The Cabinet Office has sought a significant national interest in the outcome of the
a repayable cash advance from the Contingencies Fund discussions.
of £107,134,000. [HCWS12]
The requirement has arisen because the Cabinet Office
receives a relatively high proportion of its voted funding
at Supplementary Estimate, and as a consequence may TREASURY
only draw the related cash from the Consolidated Fund
after the Supply and Appropriation Act has received
Royal Assent in March 2020. Economic Update
The cash advance will pay for programmes which will
generate Government-wide benefits or savings and are
urgent in the public interest, including advancing EU The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sajid Javid): I am
exit objectives, public inquiries, security and the efficient pleased to announce that I have appointed Mr Andrew
management of Government property. Bailey as the next Governor of the Bank of England.
Parliamentary approval for additional resources of Mr Bailey will take up his appointment on 16 March 2020,
£70,046,000 and capital of £2,088,000 and cash of and will serve an eight-year term, in accordance with
£35,000,000 will be sought in a Supplementary Estimate the Bank of England Act 1998 (as amended by the
for the Cabinet Office. Pending that approval, urgent Financial Services Act 2012). Dr Mark Carney has
expenditure estimated at £107,134,000 will be met by kindly agreed to extend his current term as Governor of
repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund. the Bank of England until 15 March 2020, in order to
[HCWS15] facilitate a smooth transition to the next Governor.
[HCWS1]

Government Transparency and Accountability

Treasury Update

The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe

Smith): The Government are today publishing a number The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman):
of documents as part of their ongoing commitment to In September 2019, the Government commissioned
transparency and accountability: Sir Amyas Morse to lead the independent loan charge
The List of Ministers’ Interests, reflecting the Government review. The loan charge is designed to tackle disguised
as it stood on 5 November 2019, immediately before the remuneration avoidance schemes where a person’s income
dissolution of Parliament. Under the terms of the Ministerial is paid as a loan which is not repaid. The Government
Code, ministers must ensure that no conflict arises, or could are today publishing the review and the Government’s
reasonably be perceived to arise, between their ministerial
position and their private interests, financial or otherwise.
own response to the review. The review, Government
The list captures those interests relevant to ministers’ ministerial response and accompanying documents may be found
responsibilities, and should be read alongside the two on gov.uk:
parliamentary registers. In line with the commitment in the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/
Ministerial Code, a further list reflecting ministerial appointments disguised-remuneration-independent-loan-charge-
made since the general election will be published next year.
review
The Annual Report of the Prime Minister’s Independent
Adviser on Interests, Sir Alex Allan, which accompanies the The Government are grateful to Sir Amyas and his
list of Ministers’ interests. team for all their work on the review.
The Annual Report on Special Advisers 2019, in conformance The Government welcome Sir Amyas’ recognition
with section 16(1) of the Constitutional Reform and Governance that disguised remuneration schemes are a form of tax
Act 2010. avoidance. Sir Amyas sets out the action that the
Copies of the List of Ministerial Interests, the Annual Government took to try to tackle disguised remuneration
Report of the Prime Minister’s Independent Adviser on and concludes that the Government were right to take
Interests and the Annual Report on Special Advisers action to ensure the tax was collected.
will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses and will However, the Government recognise the concerns
be published on gov.uk. raised in the review about the impact of some aspects of
Further transparency publications will be published the loan charge. To address these concerns, they are
in the new year, in the usual way. accepting all but one of the recommendations made in
[HCWS16] the review.
3WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 4WS

Loan charge design changes loan balance, or they can defer sending their return
The Government are today announcing the following until 30 September 2020. In these circumstances HMRC
design changes to the loan charge: will waive any penalties for late filing or late payment,
the loan charge will be limited to loans taken out on or after
and not charge any penalties for inaccurate returns (if
9 December 2010—the date on which targeted anti-avoidance the inaccuracy relates to the loan charge), as long as the
legislation was announced which put the tax position of taxpayer has submitted their return, or amends it with
disguised remuneration avoidance schemes beyond doubt, accurate figures by 30 September 2020.
according to Sir Amyas; For taxpayers within the scope of the loan charge, no
loans taken out between 9 December 2010 and 5 April 2016 interest will be charged on amounts falling due at
(inclusive) will remain within the scope of the loan charge 31 January 2020 as long as the tax is paid, or an
unless the user of the scheme can prove they disclosed details arrangement made with HMRC to do so, by 30 September
of their scheme use as specified by the review on their tax
return, and HMRC failed to take action to protect their 2020.
position, for example, by opening an enquiry; Paying the loan charge
taxpayers affected by the loan charge will be allowed to The tax system already has safeguards in place designed
report their loan charge balance across three tax years, to ensure that taxpayers who are not able to pay tax
rather than one tax year. when it falls due are not required to take on unmanageable
The changes above will be legislated for in the payment terms These safeguards include time-to-pay
forthcoming Finance Bill and will be made effective arrangements which ensure that the taxpayer only pays
from today using the HMRC Commissioners’ powers what they can, when they can. HMRC have also announced
of collection and management. previously that no taxpayer will be forced to sell their
For taxpayers who have already settled their disguised main home to fund a disguised remuneration or loan
remuneration liabilities since the loan charge was announced charge tax bill, and HMRC already signpost specialist
in March 2016, new legislation will enable HMRC to debt advisers and charities for those taxpayers struggling
repay tax paid for years that would be no longer subject with debt.
to the loan charge because the year was unprotected In addition to these existing arrangements, the
(for example, HMRC had not opened an enquiry or Government and HMRC are today announcing that:
issued an assessment). The Government will announce the Government will fund an external body to provide
further details of this legislation in due course. independent advice on time-to-pay arrangements, including
The Government will also review future policy on on the suitability of individual voluntary arrangements for
interest rates within the tax system and will report the taxpayers;
results to Parliament by 31 July 2020. in line with current practice, time-to-pay arrangements will
not require payment of more than 50% of disposable income,
While loans made before 9 December 2010 are removed aside from where taxpayers have very high disposable incomes;
from the scope of the charge, the underlying tax liability and
for loans made prior to this date remains. HMRC will where a taxpayer has no disposable assets and earns less
pursue those liabilities through open enquiries and than £50,000, then they will be automatically entitled to a
assessments, and where necessary through litigation. minimum of a five-year payment plan, and where they earn
HMRC will publish updated settlement terms for less than £30,000, a minimum of seven years.
individuals in this position in due course. The Government HMRC will also implement a number of changes to
will also invest in a new HMRC team to carry out this ensure individuals who cannot pay the tax due and who
activity and to ensure that people who entered into are in need of bespoke arrangements to pay their tax
disguised remuneration avoidance schemes before debts understand the options available to them, and can
9 December 2010 still pay the tax due and make their make an informed decision about how to proceed.
contribution to funding public services. The Government HMRC today announce that they will:
will announce further details at Budget.
publish the income and expenditure form that HMRC use
Loans taken out after 5 April 2016 and outstanding with taxpayers to understand assets, income, and expenditure,
as of 5 April 2019 also remain within the scope of the and work out disposable income, and how HMRC use that
loan charge. Loans taken out after 5 April 2019 are to create time-to-pay arrangements; and
taxable when they are received under legislation introduced refer taxpayers to a debt advice charity where their finances
in Finance Act 2011. suggest they need time to pay in excess of five years.
Additional flexibility for taxpayers affected by the loan HMRC can also confirm that, in line with current
charge practice, they will:
The loan charge remains in force and any relevant guarantee time-to-pay arrangements wherever an affordability
outstanding loan balance should be included in the assessment shows an individual cannot pay in full;
self-assessment tax return for 2018-19. However, the accept single financial statements completed by the taxpayer
Government recognise that taxpayers will need sufficient with a debt advice charity as proof of affordability;
time to understand their position in light of the changes stop all recovery action where the taxpayer has no ability to
above. HMRC have published guidance today on the pay, until there is a significant change of circumstance; and
action which affected taxpayers can take and the flexibility not seek bankruptcy proceedings for individuals who have
they now have in relation to the 31 January 2020 self- engaged with HMRC, completed an affordability assessment,
assessment deadline. and are solely unable to pay the loan charge.
Taxpayers who have not settled their disguised The policy changes to the loan charge and to time-to-pay
remuneration tax affairs by 31 January 2020 are required set out above will have a significant impact on the
to submit a self-assessment return for the 2018-19 tax affordability of the loan charge for many taxpayers
year. They can do this by the 31 January statutory 2020 affected. Allowing some loan charge liability to be
filing date, giving their best estimate of their outstanding written off in addition to these changes would have the
5WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 6WS

effect of treating these tax avoiders more favourably It is my honour to present this report to Parliament,
than other individuals with HMRC debts (including tax describing what the Government together with their
credit claimants), would reduce taxpayers’ incentive to delivery partners have done to uphold the principles
pay off the debt, and would have unwelcome wider of the covenant. The report provides progress on the
impacts that change how HMRC and those in debt delivery by the Armed Forces Covenant Fund Trust
interact. The Government are therefore not accepting and what has been achieved on healthcare, education,
the review’s recommendation to introduce a write-off of accommodation, inquest and judicial engagement, family
tax due on the loan charge after 10 years for individuals life, transition and through-life support, and business in
whose time-to-pay arrangement is longer than 10 years. the community from October 2018 to September 2019.
Future approach to tackling disguised remuneration avoidance Highlights of this year’s report include: the creation
schemes of the first Office for Veterans’ Affairs to pull together
Disguised remuneration avoidance schemes do not all functions of Government in order to ensure this
work in law and income paid through these schemes is nation’s life-long duty to those who have served, building
fully taxable. The Government remain committed to on the strategy for our veterans; putting flexible service
tackling large scale avoidance of this nature. The into law, allowing regular service personnel to ask to
Government share the review’s concern that these schemes temporarily work part-time and/or restrict their separation
continue to be marketed and used; this year alone, from their home base; the launch of the future
around 8,000 people are using a disguised remuneration accommodation model pilot in September for approximately
scheme with around 3,000 of them being new users. three years; the extension of the forces Help to Buy
Tackling large-scale avoidance of this nature remains scheme until December 2022; reaching over 4,000 signatories
challenging and further consideration is required to of the armed forces covenant, with over 1,000 new
determine what additional changes are needed. The signings this year; the inclusion of the “service child”
Government will announce further action at the Budget. “flag indicator” on school censuses in England, Wales
The Government and HMRC strongly encourage and Scotland for the first time; £23.1 million of service
people not to use these schemes and to get in touch with pupil premium funding is being distributed to over
HMRC if they think they are being sold a scheme. 10,000 schools across England in 2019-20; the Department
for Work and Pensions secured funding to bolster the
The Government and HMRC are determined to continue
role of its armed forces champions across the country;
to tackle promoters of tax avoidance schemes, and can
the NHS, together with the MOD, launched the integrated
today announce that HMRC will:
personal commissioning for veterans framework for
introduce further measures to tackle promoters of avoidance
schemes and reduce the scope for promoters to market tax
armed forces personnel in transition; and the Northern
avoidance schemes—details of which will be set out at Ireland legacy inquest team was set up to deal with the
Budget; extensive Northern Ireland legacy inquest programme.
launch a call for evidence on what steps it can take to raise But while progress has clearly been made, both this
standards in the market for tax advice to give taxpayers year and in the eight years since the covenant came into
more assurance that the advice they are receiving is reliable; being, more still needs to be done. The Government,
and working closely with their delivery partners across all
will seek to provide targeted early communication to taxpayers levels of government in the UK, service charities and
who they suspect may be engaging in tax avoidance to the private sector, will continue to mitigate disadvantage
encourage them to stop. wherever it is found within the armed forces community,
Communications and engagement and will be bold in seeking special considerations where
The Government and HMRC also accept appropriate.
recommendations in the review that will improve the As outlined in the Conservative party manifesto and
information provided in Government impact notes of Queen’s Speech we will seek to further incorporate the
tax changes and ensure that they learn from the experience armed forces covenant into law and over the course of
of the loan charge in communicating policy and this Parliament will continue to remove disadvantage
communicating with taxpayers. faced by our armed forces personnel and veterans.
[HCWS14] This report is a collaborative effort with input from
service providers and professionals from a diverse array
of backgrounds. I would like to thank colleagues across
DEFENCE central Government, the devolved Administrations,
stakeholders in Northern Ireland and local authorities,
Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report and those at every level and from every sector who are
continuing to drive forward the work of the covenant in
support of our armed forces community. I am also
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace): grateful to the external members of the covenant reference
Today, I am laying before Parliament the armed forces group who were consulted throughout the process and
covenant annual report 2019. Our armed forces protect provided their independent observations.
our nation with unwavering honour, courage and [HCWS7]
commitment. We owe them a vast debt of gratitude and
have a duty to ensure that those who serve, or who have Future Nuclear Deterrent Annual Update
served in our armed forces, and their families, suffer no
disadvantage in comparison to other citizens as a result
of their service to our country. Special consideration is The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace):
appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have On 18 May 2011, the then Secretary of State for Defence,
given the most such as the injured or the bereaved. This the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox),
is what the covenant sets out to do. made an oral statement to the House (Official Report,
7WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 8WS

18 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 351) announcing the approval Kensington and Chelsea College
of the initial gate investment stage for the procurement
of the successor to the Vanguard class ballistic missile
submarines. He also placed in the Library of the House The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson):
a report, “The United Kingdom’s Future Nuclear Deterrent: It is the normal practice when a Government Department
The Submarine Initial Gate Parliamentary Report”. propose to make a gift of a value exceeding £300,000,
for the Department concerned to present to the House
As confirmed in the 2015 strategic defence and security of Commons a minute giving particulars of the gift and
review, this Government have committed to publishing explaining the circumstances; and to refrain from making
an annual report on the programme. I am today publishing the gift until 14 parliamentary sitting days after the
the eighth report, “The United Kingdom’s Future Nuclear issue of the minute, except in cases of special urgency.
Deterrent: 2019 Update to Parliament”.
Given wider exceptional circumstances, the Department
A copy has been placed in the Library of the House. for Education intends to purchase the Kensington Centre
[HCWS6] (Wornington Road, London) and provide a 125-year
lease to a further education institute formed by merger
EDUCATION between Kensington and Chelsea College (KCC) and
Morley College (but with the Secretary of State for
Housing Communities, and Local Government to be
Dedicated Schools Grant: 2020-21
the named freeholder/lessor in each instance). The purchase
price of £10,000,000 is below market value and KCC
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb): Today will additionally contribute £6,000,000 towards the cost
I am confirming school and early years revenue funding of the acquisition of the site.
allocations for 2020-21 through the dedicated schools The lease of the site is valued at £1,100,000 per
grant (DSG), published yesterday. This follows a statement annum and will be subject to a peppercorn lease of only
by the Secretary of State for Education on 3 September, £1 per year. The peppercorn lease will contain a break
which confirmed to Parliament that the funding for clause after 25 years. The lease therefore represents a
schools and high needs will, compared to 2019-20, rise gift to the merged college worth £18,764,000 which is
by £2.6 billion for 2020-21, £4.8 billion for 2021-22, and discounted at a rate of 3.5%. The Treasury has approved
£7.1 billion for 2022-23. That is on top of £1.5 billion the proposal in principle.
we are providing each year to fund additional pensions This investment represents a unique and pivotal
costs for teachers, bringing the total schools budget to opportunity to rebuild trust and contribute towards the
£52.2 billion in 2022-23. education and skills components of the Grenfell recovery
The distribution of the DSG is set out in four blocks strategy. KCC’s only campus in North Kensington is on
for each local authority: a schools block, a high-needs Wornington Road, close to Grenfell Tower. The college
block, an early years block, and a central school services has an important role in providing Londoners, and in
block. In October 2019 I informed Parliament of the particular the North Kensington community, with the
publication of primary and secondary units of funding skills for the future.
for the schools block, and provisional allocations for Within this unique context, through strong partnership
the high-needs block and central school services block. working, Government, the Royal Borough of Kensington
In the DSG, these have now been updated with the & Chelsea and KCC, will achieve good value for money
latest pupil numbers to show how much each local in securing and refurbishing the Wornington Road site.
authority will receive in 2020-21. Today’s publication This will help create a sustainable college to maintain
also provides initial 2020-21 allocations for the early and grow a wide-ranging further education offer, benefiting
years block, following the early years national funding the local community and honouring the Government’s
formula rates for three and four-year-olds I confirmed commitment to the Grenfell community.
in October. [HCWS8]
Finally, I am confirming the Government’s commitment
to level up school funding by ensuring that every secondary
school receives at least £5,000 per pupil, and every EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION
primary school at least £3,750 per pupil in 2020-21. The
DSG allocations provide for this additional funding, General Affairs Council
and today the Government have published their response
to a consultation which finalises the arrangements local The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union
authorities must follow in delivering mandatory minimum (Stephen Barclay): I want to make the following statement:
per pupil levels to the relevant schools in their local
area, thus delivering one of the key pledges given by the General Affairs Council, November 2019
Prime Minister during the general election. The UK did not attend the General Affairs Council
As well as supporting the lowest-funded schools, this (GAC) in Brussels on 19 November 2019.
change marks an important first step in our plans to The UK Government have decided that from
implement a “hard” national funding formula, whereby 1 September until exit day, UK Ministers and officials
schools receive what they attract through the national will only attend EU meetings where the UK has a
formula, rather than through different local authority significant national interest in the outcome of the
funding formulae. We will consult on the further steps discussions.
needed to deliver those plans in due course, and will General Affairs Council, December 2019
work closely with local authorities and other stakeholders Sir Tim Barrow, the UK’s permanent representative
in making the transition carefully and smoothly. to the EU, attended the General Affairs Council in
[HCWS2] Brussels on 10 December 2019 to represent the UK. A
9WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 10WS

provisional report of the meeting and the conclusions AOB: Enlargement

adopted can be found on the Council of the European Under any other business, the Commission confirmed
Union’s website at: to member states that it would present its proposals on
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/gac/ enlargement in January, under the new presidency.
2019/12/10/# [HCWS13]
Values of the Union in Hungary / Article 7 (1) TEU
Reasoned Proposal
As part of the article 7(1) TEU procedure, the Council
held a second hearing on Hungary, following the first FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE
hearing on 16 September. This hearing focused largely
on the independence of the judiciary, freedom of expression London Croughton Annex
and academic freedom in Hungary.
Rule of Law in Poland / Article 7(1) TEU Reasoned
Proposal The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
The Council discussed the rule of law in Poland. The Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): I
Commission provided an update to Ministers on the told the House on 21 October (Official Report, 21 October
latest developments, including the recent judgments of 2019; Vol. 666, c. 760) that, following the tragic case of
the European Court of Justice concerning Polish rules Harry Dunn, I had commissioned a review of the
on the retirement age of judges and public prosecutor, immunity arrangements at the Croughton annex for US
and the new Disciplinary Chamber of the Polish Supreme personnel and their families who hold privileges and
Court. immunities under the Vienna convention on diplomatic
Preparation of the European Council on 12-13 December relations, following the 27 August road collision in
2019 and European Council follow-up which Harry Dunn was killed, I committed to completing
Ministers continued preparations for the European the review by the end of the year.
Council on 12-13 December, and discussed draft The Croughton review has now concluded. It considered
conclusions. Sir Tim Barrow intervened to express the the anomaly that family members of US officers serving
UK’s long-standing support for the EU’s ambition of at the annex at RAF Croughton have, under current
climate neutrality by 2050. We welcomed the balanced arrangements between the UK and the US, greater
conclusions that demonstrated the importance of EU protection from UK criminal jurisdiction than the officers
climate leadership in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, themselves. On the basis of the review, I have instructed
promoting green growth, and in ensuring a just transition my officials to begin discussions with the US on the
to a low-emission economy. Sir Tim Barrow also reiterated most effective way to address this anomaly.
the UK’s continual support in finding an agreed solution [HCWS5]
to the current paralysis of the WTO’s mechanism for
settling disputes, stressing the importance of language
in respect to the WTO, and reinforcing that it was NATO Leaders Meeting
central to trade policy.
Multiannual Financial Framework
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth
The Council held a policy debate on the next multiannual
Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): On
financial framework (MFF). Ministers discussed the
3-4 December, NATO leaders met in London to mark
Finnish presidency’s negotiating box, ahead of the
70 successful years of the alliance, in a valuable opportunity
12-13 December European Council. The presidency
to reaffirm British leadership. These events demonstrated
agreed to a 25% target of the EU budget to support
a strong sense of NATO’s unity and purpose, progressed
climate change initiatives.
the largest reinforcement of collective defence since the
European Semester 2020—Roadmap end of the cold war and agreed ways to ensure NATO
As part of the preparation for the next European will continue to meet future threats. I have placed a
semester, the Croatian presidency presented the 2020 copy of the NATO London declaration, capturing these
European semester roadmap. The roadmap’s objective commitments, in the Libraries of both Houses.
is to ensure that all relevant Councils work in a co-ordinated In order to maintain our alliance, defend our interests,
manner, with the General Affairs Council designated as and fulfil our commitments, NATO allies must all pay
the forum for overseeing the process. their fair share. So I was pleased that the meeting
Legislative programming – Commission’s Work Programme highlighted significant progress on burden sharing, with
for 2020 and multiannual programming the NATO Secretary-General announcing an increase
Ministers exchanged views on priorities for upcoming in non-US defence investment of $130 billion from
legislative work under the new Commission. The aim of 2016-2020, expected to rise to $400 billion by 2024. The
the discussion was to provide comments to the Commission UK remains one of nine allies meeting its 2% defence
for the preparation of its 2020 work programme. spending commitment, including a 20% investment in
Conclusions on complementary efforts to enhance resilience new capabilities. I will continue to urge other NATO
and counter hybrid threats allies to make progress in implementing our 2024 defence
The Council adopted, without discussion, European investment commitment.
Council conclusions which set priorities and guidelines In a session of the North Atlantic Council chaired by
for EU co-operation of countering hybrid threats and the Secretary-General, leaders reaffirmed NATO’s purpose
enhancing resilience. The conclusions outline the need and noted decisions taken to prevent conflict and preserve
for a comprehensive approach to these threats, working peace. These included addressing both state and non-state
across all relevant policy sectors to ensure alignment. threats, a collective response to Russia’s deployment of
11WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 12WS

treaty-violating intermediate-range missiles, a refreshed in 2019-20 to £49.1 billion in 2020-21. It is a strong and
counter-terrorism action plan, stronger policies to counter well-balanced package that delivers significant extra
hybrid threats, and work to increase the resilience of resources to the priority areas of adult and children’s
allies’ critical national infrastructure. social care, while offering protection to other key service
Allies also committed forces to NATO’s readiness areas.
initiative—ensuring that the alliance can deploy 30 ships, In October this year we launched a technical consultation,
30 battalions and 30 air squadrons at 30 days’ notice. within which we invited views on the proposed package
The UK has provided the single largest commitment, for 2020-21. I would like to thank all colleagues in local
offering three battlegroups, two air squadrons, and six government for their responses to the October consultation
warships, including an aircraft carrier, to ensure that and thank them in advance for comments on this next
NATO retains its ability to deploy quickly and at strength. consultation. I have now taken the responses to the
Allies also discussed plans to enable this great alliance technical consultation into account and, following this,
to adapt to future challenges, and ensure that it continues I am now publishing our proposals for the provisional
to deliver peace and security for 1 billion people. local government finance settlement for 2020-21:
Allies agreed a roadmap for NATO’s response to https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/
emerging and disruptive technologies (including artificial provisional-local-government-finance-settlement-
intelligence and quantum computing), initiated work to england-2020-to-2021.
address the opportunities and challenges of China’s Extra social care resources
growing influence and declared space an operational We recognise the importance of addressing the challenges
domain. NATO is also stepping up its role in human in our social care system. This is why we want to build
security, including through a new (anti) sexual exploitation the same level of cross-party consensus on social care as
and abuse policy. we have with the NHS, to make far-reaching changes to
Alongside the formal meetings, Her Majesty The the way these services are financed and delivered.
Queen hosted the NATO Secretary-General and 29 other In the meantime, we will do all we can to support
Heads of State and Government from NATO countries local authorities. The proposals I have published today
and North Macedonia on 3 December. The Prime will allow local authorities to access an additional
Minister undertook a range of bilateral meetings, including £1.5 billion for social care. This comprises £1 billion of
with the leaders of France, Germany and Turkey where additional grant—for both adult and children’s social
they discussed the situation in Syria and agreed on the care—and a proposed 2% council tax precept for adult
importance of humanitarian access and protection of social care, which will enable councils to access a further
civilians. I hosted Foreign Ministers from NATO allies—and £500 million. Some £150 million of the additional grant
NATO partners Ukraine and Georgia—on 3 December. will be used to equalise the distributional impact of the
NATO also held a major outreach event under the council tax adult social care precept.
banner of “NATO Engages”, with a diverse, predominately
young audience of more than 1,000 attendees. The These additional resources sit on top of the existing
Foreign and Commonwealth Office also hosted social care package, which will continue at 2019-20
100 university students for a “Model NATO” exercise, levels, and mean that local authorities will have access
and visited more than 1,000 students in 15 universities to over £5.5 billion of dedicated funding across adult
across the UK in the weeks leading up to the leaders’ and children’s social care in 2020-21.
meeting. Core settlement resources
I look forward to working with all NATO allies and The provisional settlement also provides protection
partners in implementing the outcomes from the leaders’ for vital services by increasing core settlement resources,
meeting and in welcoming North Macedonia as the which includes revenue support grant and business rates
30th member of our alliance in the coming months. baseline funding levels, in line with inflation, and by
When we stand together, decide together, act together—we continuing other key grants from 2019-20.
are stronger and safer. These steps will further strengthen Council tax
the purpose and unity of an alliance that continues to
be the cornerstone of our security, and post Brexit we The proposed referendum principles strike a balance
will continue to reinforce its importance. between giving local authorities the flexibility to address
service pressures, without overburdening council tax
[HCWS4]
payers with excessive increases. Local authorities will
therefore be able to increase council tax in 2020-21 by a
core principle of up to 2%, without holding a local
referendum, with a bespoke council tax referendum
HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL principle of 2% or £5, whichever is higher, for shire
GOVERNMENT district councils. In addition, councils with adult social
care responsibilities will be able to increase their council
tax by a further 2%, on top of the core principle, to be
Local Government Finance spent exclusively on adult social care. If confirmed, this
package will mean that the expected average council tax
increase for 2020-21 will be the lowest since 2016- 17.
The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and
Local Government (Robert Jenrick): Today I have published New Homes Bonus
the provisional local government finance settlement for To reward local authorities for house building in their
2020-21. The proposals set out in this consultation will area, I can confirm that we will make a new round of
give local authorities a 4.4% real-terms increase in their allocations of the new homes bonus for 2020-21 amounting
core spending power, which will rise from £46.2 billion to £907 million. As part of this, I am committing an
13WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 14WS

additional £7 million to maintain the growth baseline Counter Terrorism (Sentencing and Release) Bill
for payments at 0.4%. We will make no legacy payments Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Bill
on these new allocations, but the Government will make
Domestic Abuse Bill
legacy payments on allocations made in earlier years
which are due to be paid in 2020-21. Employment Bill
It is not clear that the new homes bonus in its current Environment Bill
form is focused on incentivising homes where they are European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill
needed most. I am therefore announcing that the Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill
Government will consult on the future of the housing
incentive in the spring. This will include moving to a Fire Safety Bill
new, more targeted approach that rewards local authorities Fisheries Bill
where they are ambitious in delivering the homes we Financial Services Bill
need and which is aligned with other measures around Health Service Safety Investigations Bill
planning performance.
Rural Services Delivery Grant High Speed Rail 2 (West Midlands - Crewe) Bill
We will continue to recognise the extra costs of delivering Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination
services in rural areas and propose to maintain last (European Union Withdrawal) Bill
year’s rural services delivery grant of £81 million, which Medicines and Medical Devices Bill
is the joint-highest paid to date. It will be distributed National Security and Investment Bill
using the same methodology as in 2019-20, which allocated NHS Funding Bill
funding to the top quartile of local authorities on the
“super-sparsity” indicator. NHS Long Term Plan Bill
Independent Living Fund and Schools Online Harms Bill
Following the closure of the independent living fund Pension Schemes Bill
(ILF) in June 2015, the Government agreed to continue Police Powers and Protections Bill
funding pre-existing ILF arrangements until the end of
Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims)
2019-20, through the former ILF recipient grant.
Bill
We can confirm that the former ILF recipient grant
will continue to be paid to local authorities in 2020-21. Private International Law (Implementation of
The total value of the grant in 2020-21 will be maintained Agreements) Bill
at the 2019-20 value of £160.6 million, with the same Renters’ Reform Bill
approach to individual local authority allocations. Details Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Bill
will be published shortly.
Sentencing Bill
We recognise that the settlement is just one source of
funding that local authorities need to know about. Serious Violence Bill
Government have now also confirmed dedicated schools Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property)
grant allocations for 2020-21: Bill
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/ Telecommunications (Connectivity) Bill
written-questions-answers-statements/written-
Thomas Cook Compensation Bill
statement/Commons/2019-12-20/HCWS2/
Conclusion Trade Bill
Local government has asked us for certainty and Windrush (Compensation Scheme) Bill
stability from the settlement for 2020-21. This provisional The programme will also include Finance Bills to
settlement delivers on this, building on spending round implement budget policy decisions.
2019 and our recent technical consultation. It provides Detailed information about each of these bills can be
certainty for 2020-21 for those planning vital frontline accessed from the Gov.uk website at:
services and provides significant extra resources where
they are needed most. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/
system/uploads/attachment_data/file/853886/
[HCWS17] Queen_s_Speech_December_2019_-
_background_briefing_notes.pdf.
LEADER OF THE HOUSE [HCWS11]

Government’s Legislative Programme

NORTHERN IRELAND
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob
Rees-Mogg): Following Thursday’s state opening of
Parliament, and for the convenience of the House, I am
listing the bills which were announced: Government’s Legislative Programme (Northern
Agriculture Bill Ireland)
Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft
Bill
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian
Armed Forces (Legal Protections) Bill Smith): The Government’s legislative programme for
Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill the first Session was outlined by Her Majesty on Thursday
Building Safety Bill 19 December. This statement provides a summary of
15WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 16WS

the programme and its application to Northern Ireland. Thomas Cook Compensation Bill
It does not include draft Bills, Law Commission Bills or Trade Bill
Finance Bills.
Windrush (Compensation Scheme) Bill
The Government are committed to delivering for all
In the absence of a devolved Assembly and Executive,
its citizens, wherever they live—the nations of the United
we will continue to work constructively with Northern
Kingdom are safer, stronger and more prosperous when
Ireland Departments to deliver legislation which has
working together. The legislative programme therefore
effect in Northern Ireland. Should the devolved institutions
contains important reforms to domestic issues that will
be restored then, in line with the Sewel convention
benefit people across the Union, as well as legislation
and associated practices, the Government will work
that will allow the United Kingdom to seize the
constructively with the Northern Ireland Executive to
opportunities afforded by the exit from the European
secure the legislative consent of the Northern Ireland
Union.
Assembly where appropriate.
The Government’s priority in Northern Ireland is the [HCWS10]
restoration of the Executive at the earliest opportunity.
Northern Ireland has now been without devolved
government since January 2017. In that time, we have PRIME MINISTER
seen hospital waiting lists get longer, public services Oversight of Investigatory Powers
deteriorate, and frustration in Northern Ireland grow at
the lack of an Executive. Talks to restore the institutions
of the Belfast (Good Friday) agreement resumed on The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): On 18 July 2019,
Monday 16 December. The talks are being held in the Government published new guidance titled “The
accordance with the well-established three-stranded Principles relating to the detention and interviewing of
principle. This is the overriding priority for both the detainees overseas and the passing and receipt of intelligence
UK Government and the Irish Government. So the UK relating to detainees”. This will replace the existing
Government, working closely with the Irish Government “consolidated guidance” with effect from 1 January
in the normal way, will continue to intensify our efforts 2020. The new guidance is being extended to include the
to put forward compromise solutions to the parties. National Crime Agency and SO15 Metropolitan Police
In the absence of an Executive, the Government are Service and will provide clear direction for UK personnel
committed to taking action to ensure good governance on their interaction with detainees held by others overseas
in Northern Ireland, including, where necessary, through and the handling of intelligence derived from them.
legislative measures. The Investigatory Powers Commissioner will continue
to oversee and report on the application of the principles,
The following Bills contained in the programme are
and to enable this I have today issued a direction to the
likely to extend to Northern Ireland:
commissioner to keep under review compliance with
Agriculture Bill the guidance by UK personnel so far as they are engaged
Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft in intelligence activities. In accordance with my obligation
Bill to publish such directions under section 230 of the
Armed Forces (Legal Protections) Bill Investigatory Powers Act 2016, I am now depositing a
copy of the direction in the Libraries of both Houses.
Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill
[HCWS3]
Building Safety Bill
Counter Terrorism (Sentencing and Release) Bill SCOTLAND
Domestic Abuse Bill
Employment Bill Government’s Legislative Programme (Scotland)
Environment Bill
European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack):
The legislative programme for the first Session was
Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill outlined by Her Majesty on Thursday 19 December.
Fisheries Bill This statement provides a summary of the programme
Financial Services Bill and its application to Scotland. It does not include draft
Bills, Law Commission Bills or Finance Bills.
Health Service Safety Investigations Bill
This Government will finally get Brexit done. We
Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination have introduced the European Union (Withdrawal
(European Union Withdrawal) Bill Agreement) Bill to implement the fantastic deal agreed
Online Harms Bill by the Prime Minister and ensure our exit from the EU
Medicines and Medical Devices Bill on 31 January. We will end the uncertainty and leave as
one United Kingdom, allowing us to move on and
National Security and Investment Bill unleash the potential of all four nations. Together,
Pension Schemes Bill Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are
Private International Law (Implementation of safer, stronger and more prosperous, and as such the
Agreements) Bill Government remain committed to strengthening the
Union.
Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Bill
The legislative programme for this Session will deliver
Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) on the opportunities Brexit brings for the whole of the
Bill United Kingdom. For example, the Fisheries Bill will
Telecommunications (Connectivity) Bill create powers to build a sustainable, profitable UK
17WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 18WS

fishing industry as we leave the common fisheries policy WALES

and become an independent coastal state. The Immigration
and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal)
Bill will provide the legal framework for our future Government’s Legislative Programme (Wales)
immigration system, so that we can decide who comes
to this country on the basis of skills they have and the
contribution they can make—not where they come The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart): The
from. legislative programme for the first Session was outlined
Getting Brexit done will allow us to focus on delivering by Her Majesty on Thursday 19 December. This statement
important reforms to domestic issues through our legislative provides a summary of the programme and its application
programme. The Government are at the forefront of to Wales. It does not include draft Bills, Law Commission
tackling climate change, as the first major economy to Bills or Finance Bills.
legislate to end our contribution to global warming by This Government will get Brexit done. We have
setting a target of net zero greenhouse gas emissions by introduced the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement)
2050. Next year we will introduce the Environment Bill Bill to implement the deal agreed by the Prime Minister,
to guarantee the protection and restoration of our which will ensure our exit from the EU on 31 January.
natural environment, putting these issues at the centre We will end the uncertainty and leave as one United
of policy making. On top of this, we are bringing world Kingdom, allowing us to move on and unleash the
leaders to Glasgow for the United Nations 26th Conference potential of all four nations. Together, England, Wales,
of the Parties (COP26) climate conference next year. Scotland and Northern Ireland are safer, stronger and
The following bills would apply to Scotland (either in full more prosperous, and as such the Government remain
or in part). committed to strengthening the Union.
Agriculture Bill The legislative programme for this Session will deliver
on the opportunities Brexit brings for the whole of the
Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft United Kingdom. The Government expect that the
Bill return of powers from the EU will lead to a significant
Armed Forces (Legal Protections) Bill increase in the decision-making powers of the devolved
Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill Administrations. It will mean that decisions and powers
Building Safety Bill sit in the right place and closer to people than ever
Counter Terrorism (Sentencing and Release) Bill before.
Domestic Abuse Bill Getting Brexit done will allow us to focus on delivering
important domestic reform delivering benefits in Wales
Employment Bill and across the United Kingdom. The programme includes
Environment Bill an ambitious set of measures to support citizens across
European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill all nations of the UK.
Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill The following bills would apply to Wales (either in
Fisheries Bill full or in part).
Financial Services Bill Agriculture Bill
Health Service Safety Investigations Bill Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft
High Speed Rail 2 (West Midlands - Crewe) Bill Bill
Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination Armed Forces (Legal Protections) Bill
(European Union Withdrawal) Bill Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill
Online Harms Bill Building Safety Bill
Medicines and Medical Devices Bill Counter Terrorism (Sentencing and Release) Bill
National Security and Investment Bill Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Bill
Pension Schemes Bill Domestic Abuse Bill
Police Powers and Protections Bill Employment Bill
Private International Law (Implementation of Environment Bill
Agreements) Bill European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill
Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Bill Extradition (Provisional Arrest) Bill
Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Fisheries Bill
Bill Financial Services Bill
Telecommunications (Connectivity) Bill Health Service Safety Investigations Bill
Thomas Cook Compensation Bill High Speed Rail 2 (West Midlands - Crewe) Bill
Trade Bill Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination
Windrush (Compensation Scheme) Bill (European Union Withdrawal) Bill
In line with the Sewel convention and associated Online Harms Bill
practices, the Government will continue to work Medicines and Medical Devices Bill
constructively with the Scottish Government to secure
the legislative consent of the Scottish Parliament where National Security and Investment Bill
appropriate. Pension Schemes Bill
[HCWS9] Police Powers and Protections Bill
19WS Written Statements 20 DECEMBER 2019 Written Statements 20WS

Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Thomas Cook Compensation Bill

Bill
Trade Bill
Private International Law (Implementation of
Agreements) Bill Windrush (Compensation Scheme) Bill
Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Bill The Government will continue to work constructively
Sentencing Bill with the Welsh Government to secure the legislative
Serious Violence Bill consent of the National Assembly for Wales where
appropriate.
Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property)
Bill [HCWS18]
Telecommunications (Connectivity) Bill
21WS Written Statements 7 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 22WS

Written Statements Appropriate management action will be taken in

response to this incident. Changes have already been
made to ensure the relevant IT system generates reports
Tuesday 7 January 2020 containing only data that is suitable for publication,
removing the scope for further human error. I have also
instructed the Government Digital Service to improve
their processes to ensure all access to data can be
CABINET OFFICE removed much more rapidly when required.
The Department reported the matter to the Information
Commissioner on Saturday 28 December 2019 and will
New Year Honours List co-operate fully with its on-going inquiries. In addition,
I am announcing today an independent review of data
handling practices within the Cabinet Office. This review
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster will focus on process, culture, policy and practice within
General (Oliver Dowden): On Friday 27 December 2019 the Department. It will establish whether appropriate
at 22:30, the Cabinet Office published the New Year controls are in place around the storage, sharing and
Honours List 2020 on www.gov.uk. As part of deletion of personal data, including learning lessons
this publication a version of the honours list was published from this case. More information on this review will be
online which contained address details of the 1,097 recipients. published shortly.
This was done in error. The document was accessible for
[HCWS21]
approximately 40 minutes, and was available to those
who had already accessed the information for a further
150 minutes via the original web link.
This incident was a result of human error. The Honours BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL
and Appointments Secretariat is responsible for managing STRATEGY
and publishing the Honours lists. The New Year 2020
honours round was the first to use a new IT system National Living Wage and National Minimum Wage
from which a report was downloaded to create a file for
publication.
The sensitivities around address data had been identified The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business,
as a risk and previous versions of the file prepared for Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst): I am
publication had not included address data. As part of writing to inform the House that the Government are
the final checking process, further amendments were pleased to accept all of the Low Pay Commission’s
made to the file and a version of the file, including recommendations for the new national living wage and
address data, was mistakenly sent for publication. national minimum wage rates, which will come into
The team was made aware of the error at 23:00 on force in April 2020.
27 December and the link was removed from the Cabinet The Low Pay Commission is an internationally
Office web page within 10 minutes. It took a further renowned independent and expert body which conducts
150 minutes to close the link to the document and extensive analysis and stakeholder research to make its
remove the page altogether. In this intervening period recommendations.
those who opened the link or had the web page address The Low Pay Commission has recommended that:
could still open the document.
The national living wage (for workers aged 25 and over)
The immediate concern following the publication of should increase from £8.21 to £8.72;
this information was to ensure that there was no increased The rate for 21 to 24-year-olds should increase from £7.70 to
risk to any individuals and that their security was being £8.20;
appropriately managed. The Cabinet Office worked with The rate for 18 to 20-year-olds should increase from £6.15 to
the police and relevant authorities to identify any potentially £6.45;
high risk cases and put in place any necessary actions. The rate for 16 to 17-year-olds should increase from £4.35 to
Over 48 hours, the Department made contact with all £4.55; and
affected individuals to inform them of what had taken The apprentice rate (for apprentices aged under 19 or in the
place, provide contact details and to apologise for this first year of their apprenticeship) should increase from £3.90
incident. Chief Constables were briefed through the to £4.15.
National Police Chiefs’ Council, and local forces made The Low Pay Commission has also recommended that
assessments for all recipients. the accommodation offset increases from the current rate of
The Department has worked with the relevant £7.55 to £8.20 from 1 April 2020.
organisations to ascertain the extent of the access to the We welcome the Low Pay Commission’s recommendation
data. We have no evidence that data has been exploited of an increase to the national living wage rate such that
by a third party, or shared more widely though we it meets the Government’s objective of reaching 60% of
continue to be vigilant. median earnings by 2020.
The Government have been informed by the police The new national living wage rate of £8.72 will be
and other agencies that there is no information to the highest ever UK minimum wage and benefit over
suggest an increased risk in relation to any persons as a two million workers. From April 2020, a full-time worker
result of this data breach. This is not to underestimate on the national living wage will see their earnings increase
the concern this incident may have caused for individuals. by nearly £4,000 over the course of the year, compared
On behalf of the Cabinet Office I apologise unreservedly to when the national living wage was introduced. This
for any distress or inconvenience caused. increase in the national living wage is the first step in
23WS Written Statements 7 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 24WS

meeting our commitment to raise the NLW to two-thirds The loss of smaller embedded generation on the day
of median earnings, provided economic conditions allow, was greater than expected. The E3C report sets out a
within the next five years. series of actions to assess the need for improvements to
The Low Pay Commission’s recommendations for the governance, monitoring and enforcement processes
increasing the national minimum wage youth rates, by for large and smaller generators.
between 4.6% and 6.5%, are well ahead of forecast
inflation. On 9 August, the cumulative loss of generation exceeded
the amount of back-up generation on hold. This triggered
These increases are due to come into effect from
the first stage, a demand disconnection protection system,
1 April 2020, subject to parliamentary approval. The
which is the last line of defence when the system is out
Government intend to lay implementing regulations
of balance. This resulted in over 1 million customers
before Parliament in due course.
being disconnected from the network.
A copy of the response will be available from the
BEIS website at: www.beis.gov.uk. Given the events on 9 August, the E3C report
[HCWS20] recommends a review of how much back-up generation
the electricity system operator should be required to
hold. As this is funded through consumer bills, the
Energy Emergencies Executive Committee Report review will include a cost benefit analysis of increasing
the amount of reserves.

The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Although the demand disconnection protection system
Strategy (Andrea Leadsom): On Friday 9 August 2019, worked broadly as intended, the review identified some
over 1 million customers were affected by a major discrepancies in its operation; therefore, the report
power disruption that occurred across England and recommends further analysis of the schemes performance
Wales and some parts of Scotland. The power outage in order to develop options for short and long-term
was due to the loss of a mix of generation including a improvements. This includes considering whether
gas-fired power station and an offshore wind farm. distribution network operators should afford particular
Though the power disruption itself was relatively types of customers any form of protection, especially
short-lived—all customers were restored within during the early stages of an incident.
45 minutes—the knock-on impacts to other services
were significant. This is especially true for rail services In addition to the direct impacts of customers being
which experienced major delays that extended into disconnected from the electricity network, wider disruptions
Sunday 11 August. The wider disruptions were caused on the day were caused by the automatic safety systems
by automatic safety systems under the control of individual owned and operated by individual service providers
service providers, which reacted to frequency and voltage reacting unexpectedly to the frequency and voltage
fluctuations, or problems with their back-up power fluctuations on the electricity network; or problems
supplies. with their own back-up power supplies.
Given the severity of the incident, I commissioned The E3C will consider what more can be done to
the Energy Emergencies Executive Committee (E3C) to support essential services owners and operators with
conduct a review to identify lessons learnt and put in advice and guidance to put in place more robust business
place a robust action plan to improve the reliability and continuity plans.
integrity of our power network. The committee’s final
report was published on Friday 3 January. This follows Effective communication is a vital part of any emergency
the publication of its interim report on 4 October. The response. Unfortunately, industry communications on
final report sets out 10 clear actions and these will be the day fell below the standard expected, with infrequent
implemented in full, to help prevent and manage future and disjointed updates to the general public.
power disruption events.
Alongside the E3C report, Ofgem also published the The E3C will develop and roll out new communications
conclusions of its own investigations into the incident. processes to ensure the general public receives regular
This set out a series of cross-industry actions for maintaining updates during any future disruptions. There will also
the resilience of the electricity system, as well as announcing be a review of operational protocols to make sure they
voluntary payments totalling £10.5 million for companies are fit for purpose.
involved in the power outages.
GB power disruption: E3C lessons learnt and actions Where appropriate, the E3C and Ofgem reports contain
Following a lightning strike on an overhead transmission jointly agreed actions and recommendations. The E3C
line, there was a near simultaneous generation loss at will take the actions set out both reports to drive
two transmission-connection generators; and a significant forward changes across the sector. The committee will
number of smaller embedded generators connected to provide quarterly updates to my Department and Ofgem.
the distribution network.
The UK leads the world by working to eradicate its
The two transmission-connected generators experienced contribution to climate change by 2050. The actions I
technical issues near-simultaneously. Both generators have outlined here today will form part of a wider
have acknowledged the role they played in the incident package of work already under way across government
and since implemented technical fixes to ensure that and industry to ensure the UK’s energy system remains
their systems can withstand similar incidents in the resilient as we transition to clean and affordable energy.
future. The E3C will share the lessons identified with
generators across the UK. [HCWS19]
25WS Written Statements 7 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 26WS

HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL deliver real change for communities through our £3.6 billion
GOVERNMENT Towns Fund, announced by the Prime Minister in July
2019. It will support an initial 100 town deals across
Departmental Update England and includes £1 billion for the Future High
Streets Fund.
The Future High Streets Fund aims to renew and
The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and reshape town centres in a way that improves experience,
Local Government (Robert Jenrick): drives growth and ensures future sustainability. Last
Troubled Families allocations week we released over £1 million of additional funding,
On 5 January I announced up to £165 million of new on top of £13.5 million already invested in local authorities,
funding for the Troubled Families Programme for 2020-21. to further support places developing detailed business
This funding will provide intensive support for some of cases of their original proposals.
the most vulnerable families and place the programme In addition to this funding I also announced that the
on a stable footing for the future. It will help more High Streets Task Force, established to provide hands-on
families to get early, practical and co-ordinated support support to local areas, will be piloting interventions,
to transform their lives for the better, with key workers products and services in 20 places in early 2020 before
working with the whole family to address their needs rolling out expert, training and data offer across the
holistically rather than responding to each problem, or country later in the year. The places benefiting from
single family member separately. being part of this pilot will be a mixture of local
This funding will also help local authorities and their authorities, business improvement districts and community
partners to work together to reduce demand and groups. The taskorce is also holding an open recruitment
dependency on costly, reactive key public services. The for a board chair to provide expert leadership to this
latest evaluation results show that as a result of the programme.
Troubled Families Programme, two years after joining
My Department has also launched a survey to consult
there were a third fewer children going into care, a
on the proposed register of empty commercial properties,
quarter fewer adults going to prison, 15% fewer juvenile
to improve transparency of ownership on the high
convictions and 11% fewer claiming job seekers allowance.
street and make it easier for businesses or community
Pets in privately rented accommodation groups to make use of vacant commercial properties
As part of the steps the Government are taking to and identify landlords. The consultation exercise will
secure a better deal for renters, I have called on landlords remain open until 9 February 2020, after which we will
to make it easier for responsible tenants to have well consider responses and decide how to proceed.
behaved pets in their homes while recognising landlords’
rights to protect their properties from damage. Pets Cold Weather Fund
bring a huge amount of joy and comfort to people’s This Government are committed to tackling homelessness
lives, but some families cannot experience this because and rough sleeping within the term of this Parliament.
they rent their homes privately. We will publish a revised To this end, on 23 December I announced the allocation
model tenancy agreement shortly, which can be used as of £263 million in funding to local authorities designed
the basis of lease agreements, to remove restrictions on to support the delivery of services to tackle homelessness.
responsible tenants with wellbehaved pets. This is an increase in overall funding for local authority
homelessness services of £23 million on the previous
Rogue landlord enforcement financial year.
I have awarded more than 100 councils across England
a share of over £4 million to crack down on criminal My Department is also funding many additional
landlords and letting agents through the Private Rented rough sleeping services across the country this winter
Sector Innovation and Enforcement Grant Fund. This through our £10 million cold weather fund. In recognition
builds on £2.4 million awarded in January 2019 and will of the level of interest in the fund we have announced a
continue the Government’s ongoing work to make the further £3 million available to all local authorities in
private rented sector fairer and stamp out criminal England. This will enable us to build on the successes of
practices for good. Most landlords provide decent homes the fund so far by increasing outreach work further and
for their tenants, but a small minority persist in breaking extending winter shelter provision to support rough
the law, making tenants’ lives a misery by offering sleepers off the streets this winter. These announcements
inadequate or unsafe housing. The grants support a underline our commitment to tackling homelessness
range of projects to enable councils to make the best use and rough sleeping and will ensure local authorities are
of their enforcement powers and include trialling innovative given the resource they need to make this a reality in
ideas, sharing best practice and targeted enforcement local areas.
where we know landlords shirk their responsibilities. Housing First
The Government are committed to helping good landlords My Department announced recently that 200 people
to thrive, and ensuring that hard-working tenants across have so far been housed through the Housing First
the country get the homes they deserve—creating a pilot, underway since 2018 in Greater Manchester combined
housing market that works for everyone. authority, Liverpool city region and west midlands
High Streets package combined authority areas. The Housing First approach
At the heart of this new Government’s mission is a offers permanent affordable housing to rough sleepers
commitment to supporting places and communities with multiple complex needs as well as wraparound
that have been overlooked and undervalued for far too support to ensure that they are able to maintain their
long. We will make an immediate start on levelling up tenancies and provide the support that they need to
across the regions and I am reorganising my Department recover from mental health issues, substance misuse
to relentlessly focus on these places so that we can and the physical effects of living on the streets.
27WS Written Statements 7 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 28WS

Community pubs community groups at the start of their journey to

community ownership. It also supports groups later in
On 22 December I announced a £1.15 million fund the process who require specialist professional advice
that will assist an estimated 100 communities to either with larger grants and loans to help with business
own their local pub or benefit from new, pub-based planning, conveyancing, architectural help or financial
community services and facilities. This funding will also advice.
create valuable new jobs and volunteering opportunities.
Pubs run by the community and for the community
help bring people closer together. Importantly, they are Five hundred thousand pounds will be allocated to”
a space for older, vulnerable and more isolated residents Pub is the Hub” to enable a range of projects providing
to access important local services and feel part of their new, pub-based community services from post offices
communities. and shops to libraries and allotments. This will increase
the services available in rural and remote communities
The £1.15 million fund will support pubs through
and help sustain pubs as community assets and businesses.
two key programmes. £650,000 will be allocated to the
second “More than a Pub” programme. More than a
pub provides small grants and specialist advice for [HCWS22]
29WS Written Statements 9 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 30WS

Written Statements It is important to note that the Secretary of State has

not taken a final decision on intervention at this stage.
In line with the statutory guidance on media mergers,
Thursday 9 January 2020 the “minded to” letter invites further representations in
writing from the parties and gives them until 13 January
to respond. The Secretary of State plans to make her
final decision, which needs to be made on a quasi-judicial
TREASURY basis, on whether to issue an intervention notice no
later than week commencing 20 January.
If the Secretary of State decides to issue an intervention
Direct Payments Funding notice, the next stage would be for Ofcom to assess and
report to the Secretary of State on the public interest
concerns and for the Competition and Markets Authority
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Rishi Sunak): (CMA) to assess and report to her on whether a relevant
The Treasury has confirmed £2,852 million of funding merger situation has been created and any impact this
across financial years 2020/21 and 2021/22 to replace may have on competition. Following these reports, the
funding from the European Union and allow delivery Secretary of State would need to decide whether to refer
of direct payments 2020 for farmers at the same level as the matter for a more detailed investigation by the
the 2019 scheme. CMA under section 45 of the Enterprise Act 2002.
The 2020 direct payment scheme across the EU is DCMS will keep Parliament updated on progress
funded from the next multiannual financial framework, with this media merger case.
which means that in the UK, the 2020 scheme will be [HCWS27]
funded domestically by the UK Government. To provide
certainty for farmers, the Department for the Environment,
Food and Rural Affairs and the devolved Administrations, HOME DEPARTMENT
the Treasury has announced that the following funding
will be allocated:
£1,751 million in 2020/21 and £92 million in 2021/22 for the
Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse: Children
Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs; outside the UK
£449 million in 2020/21 and £24 million in 2021/22 for the
Scottish Government; The Secretary of State for the Home Department
£231 million in 2020/21 and £12 million in 2021/22 for the (Priti Patel): Today the independent inquiry into child
Welsh Government; and sexual abuse has published its latest report, which can
£279 million in 2020/21 and £15 million in 2021/22 for the be found at www.iicsa.orq.uk.
Northern Ireland Administration. This report relates to its investigation into children
This funding will be ring-fenced for direct payments outside the UK. I pay tribute to the strength and
and is based on an exchange rate of ¤1=£0.89092, the courage of the victims and survivors who have shared
same rate as used for direct payments 2019. their experiences to ensure the inquiry can deliver its
[HCWS25] vital work.
The Government will review this report and consider
how to respond to its content in due course.
I would like to thank Professor Jay and her panel for
DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT
their continued work to uncover the truth, expose what
went wrong in the past and to learn the lessons for the
Media Matters: iNewspaper future.
[HCWS26]

The Minister for Sport, Media and Creative Industries

(Nigel Adams): The Department for Digital, Culture, HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL
Media and Sport has today written to Daily Mail and GOVERNMENT
General Trust (DMGT) and JPI Media Publications
Limited, the current and former owners of the i newspaper, Town of the Year Competition
to inform them that the Secretary of State for DCMS is
“minded to” issue an intervention notice. This relates to
concerns the Secretary of State has that there may be The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and
public interest considerations—as set out in section 58 Local Government (Robert Jenrick): Today I am announcing
of Enterprise Act 2002—that are relevant to the recent the opportunity for towns across England to compete in
acquisition of the i newspaper by DMGT and that a new town of the year competition. The competition
these concerns warrant further investigation. aims to celebrate towns’ achievements in areas such as
A “minded to” letter has therefore been issued to the entrepreneurship, technology, community, enterprise,
parties on one public interest ground specified in section 58 and integration. This will help deliver on the Prime
of the Enterprise Act 2002: Minister’s bold agenda for the future, making this decade
a time of renewal for towns and communities.
(2B) The need for, to the extent that it is reasonable and
practicable, a sufficient plurality of views in newspapers in In the months ahead, I will complete a countrywide
each market for newspapers in the United Kingdom or a tour of all the 100 areas receiving funding under the
part of the United Kingdom £3.6 billion towns fund. This will ensure these places are
31WS Written Statements 9 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 32WS

receiving the practical support and investment they The advance will be repaid immediately following
need on the ground so we can help local communities to approval of the Supplementary Estimate. We have taken
deliver real change. steps to review our processes and capture lessons learned,
Some £16 million of funding has now been delivered to prevent any similar issues from happening again.
to local authorities to help develop new innovative Parliamentary approval for additional cash of £3.6 billion
proposals in the 100 areas across England, as part of will be sought in a Supplementary Estimate for the
the towns fund. Each place will have the opportunity to Department for Transport. Pending that approval, urgent
bid for funding of up to £25 million. expenditure estimated at up to £3.6 billion will be met
To assist with this, I will establish a new towns hub’ by repayable cash advances from the Contingencies
within my Department, which will work to develop Fund.
each town’s investment proposals. The hubs, based across [HCWS23]
the country will have a named representative from the
Department, supporting local people on the development
of their plan. They will also evaluate the emerging town Northern Rail
investment plans, share best practice across towns and
build on the towns fund investments for potential future
support to towns from across Government. The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps):
Passengers in the north have had to put up with
Finally, today I am also announcing a new expert-led
unacceptable services for too long. We understand how
advisory panel, which will be convened to advise on
frustrating this has been for people and we are taking
how we can revitalise our towns over the next year. The
action to make sure that performance improves.
specialists, including entrepreneurs and people who have
delivered real change, will help shape this Government’s On 16 October 2019 I informed the House, through
policy to support the growth agenda. the Transport Committee, that I had issued a request
for a proposal to the current Northern franchisee, Arriva
These announcements reaffirms out the Government’s Rail North (ARN) and to the operator of Last Resort
ambition to level up the country. It sets out how we will as the first phase of securing options for the continuation
help restore the fabric of our towns and cities and give of passenger services on the Northern franchise. This
local people far more control in how they are invested was triggered by concern over the financial position of
in, and to hear directly from people in these communities ARN.
on the specific support and investment they need.
It has now been confirmed to me from the most
[HCWS28]
recent available financial information that the franchise
will only be able to continue for a number of months.
The proposal I requested from ARN is being evaluated.
Following completion of this process I will consider
TRANSPORT whether to award ARN a short-term management contract
or whether to ask the Department of Transport’s own
operator of Last Resort to step in and deliver passenger
Contingency Fund Advance services. Longer-term decisions on the franchise will be
made in the light of the recommendations of the Williams
Rail Review.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps): My decision on which short-term option to choose
I hereby give notice of the Department for Transport’s will be made in accordance with the key principles set
intention to seek an advance from the Contingencies out in the statement on how I use my rail franchising
Fund. The Department requires an advance to meet its powers. This includes:
cash requirements pending parliamentary approval of protecting the interests of passengers
the Supplementary Estimate 2019-20.
ensuring business and service continuity
The Department is operating within the budget agreed preserving the interests of taxpayers by ensuring value for
in the Main Estimate, however, we will be seeking an money
increase in our net cash requirement in the Supplementary the continued quality of the franchise proposition;
Estimate. Accessing the contingency fund is to allow
In order to inform this decision, the Department will
the Department to move cash around the group to
assess the extent to which each option performs against
support existing expenditure consistent with existing
these principles. Our value for money assessment will be
Parliamentary Estimates and does not represent additional
based on a number of criteria, including which option
spending.
returns most money to the taxpayer, the risks attached
When the Main Estimate was submitted for approval, to each, and the value of any improvements in passenger
part of Network Rail’s (NR) grant-in-aid was excluded. services. I intend to announce my decision before the
The grant funding for NR in control period 6 was end of January 2020.
agreed shortly before the Main Estimate was finalised
To clarify, the current financial position of the Northern
and in the transition from loan funding to grant funding
franchise will not impact on the railway’s day-to-day
the full value of the required grant was not captured
operations. Services will continue to run and there will
in the Department’s net cash requirement. It was the
be no impact on staff.
Department’s intention that the final classification and
[HCWS24]
cash requirement would be covered by the Supplementary
Estimates process.
33WS Written Statements 13 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 34WS

Written Statements Technology

We will use frontline technology to improve patients’
Monday 13 January 2020 experience, provide flexible working for clinicians, and
help save lives.
This Government have announced that it will provide
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE £40 million to reduce NHS staff login times, tackling
one of the main technology frustrations facing NHS
Departmental Update staff. Currently, many NHS staff have to log in to
multiple computer programmes when tending to a patient,
with each programme requiring its own login details.
The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): As set out Some staff may need to log in to as many as 15 different
clearly in our manifesto, the NHS is this Government’s systems. This outdated technology slows down and
No.1 domestic priority. We are supporting the NHS frustrates staff and prevents them from giving patients
through our historic funding settlement, which will see their full attention and the care they deserve. Harnessing
the NHS budget increase by £33.9 billion within the the best technology will improve care for patients and
next five years. This will soon be enshrined into law. improve the burden on our staff.
I recently set out my priorities for the system[1]. This To further improve the digital capability of NHS
statement highlights the work that has already begun to trusts, we will set up a new ‘digital aspirant’ programme.
deliver on these priorities, including our major manifesto This will provide funding over several years to assist
commitments of: with digital transformation projects so that trusts can
50,000 more nurses;
provide safe, high-quality and efficient care.
40 new hospitals over the next decade;
Additionally, this Government have announced that
ending unfair hospital car parking charges;
a further £4.5 million will be given to local authorities
and 50 million more GP appointments.
to develop digital adult social care projects to support
Infrastructure the most vulnerable in society to live independently for
Work has already begun to deliver our manifesto longer and improve information sharing across the NHS
commitment on free hospital parking for those who and social care.
need it. This Government recently announced that from [1]
https://policyexchange.org.uk/pxevents/keynote-
April 2020, disabled people, frequent out-patient attenders, speech-by-the-rt-hon-matt-hancock-mp/.
parents of sick children staying overnight, and staff [HCWS30]
working night shifts will be able to access free hospital WORK AND PENSIONS
car parking. This change will benefit thousands of
NHS patients and visitors in England and mean that Local Housing Allowance
across the country we have a consistent approach whereby The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work
those with the greatest need will no longer have to pay and Pensions (Will Quince): I am announcing that from
for parking. We will also consider car parking capacity April 2020 Local Housing Allowance (LHA) rates will
across the country, and how improved technology will be increased in line with the Consumer Price Index
reduce burdens for hospitals, and take away stress for (CPI), ending the freeze to the local housing allowance
visitors. and delivering on the manifesto commitment to end the
Prevention benefit freeze.
Community pharmacies play a crucial role in helping
The Rent Officers Orders for Housing Benefit and
people stay healthy and prevent pressure on hospitals.
Universal Credit, which provide for the increase, will be
In October 2019, as part of our ‘pharmacy first approach’,
laid in the House later today and a corresponding provision
the community pharmacist consultation service was
will implement the changes for Northern Ireland
introduced. This means people with minor illnesses or
who need medicine urgently have been referred to This increase will mean the majority of people in
local pharmacies. More than 100,000 patients have had receipt of housing support in the private rented sector
appointments with expert pharmacists in the last 10 weeks, will see their housing support increase, on average benefiting
relieving pressure on GPs and A&E apartments. by around £10 per month.
This Government continue to spend around £95 billion
People
As we begin 2020, the Year of the Nurse and the a year on working age benefits, including around £23 billion
Midwife, we are embarking on the biggest nursing to help people with their housing costs.
recruitment drive in decades, backed by a new universal Ending the freeze to LHA rates ensures we are continuing
support package. Nursing students on courses from to support the most vulnerable in society. And, as
September 2020 will now benefit from guaranteed, announced at the spending round in September 2019
additional support of at least £5,000 a year to help there will be an additional £40 million in discretionary
with living costs, some students could be eligible for up housing payments for 2020-21, to help affordability in
to £8,000 per year. It is expected to benefit more than the private rented sector.
35,000 students every year. The funding will not have to My Department will continue to work with colleagues
be repaid by recipients. across Government on housing, including working closely
The new year’s honours list for 2020 celebrated the with MHCLG to find ways to reduce homelessness and
incredible work taking place in the health and social meet the cost of living in rented accommodation through
care sector all around the UK. This included senior good housing supply and a welfare system that supports
leaders Professor Dame Sally Davies (Chief Medical the vulnerable.
[HCWS29]
Officer between 2011 and 2019), Simon Stevens (NHS
Chief Executive) and Lyn Romeo (Chief Social Worker).
35WS Written Statements 14 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 36WS

Written Statements The consultation will launch at the Budget on 11 March.

It will be open for responses for a period of six weeks,
closing on 22 April. The Government and UKSA will
Tuesday 14 January 2020 respond to the consultation before the Parliamentary
summer recess.
[HCWS33]

BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL

STRATEGY
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE
ENABLE Funding Scheme
Gadaffi-sponsored Terrorism
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business,
Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst): ‘ENABLE The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa
Funding’ is a scheme administered by the British Business (Dr Andrew Murrison): The Secretary of State for Foreign
Bank which provides senior funding (effectively at and Commonwealth Affairs on 4 October formally
commercial terms) to delivery partners and is designed commenced the appointment of Mr William Shawcross
to increase funding diversification for leasing and asset as his Special Representative on UK victims of Gadaffi-
finance providers and peer-to-peer lenders, with the sponsored IRA terrorism. This appointment reflects HMG’s
overall purpose of increasing the supply of debt to strong commitment to support all UK victims of Libyan-
underlying small and medium-sized enterprises. sponsored IRA terrorism. The Special Representative
Since the scheme began in 2014, senior secured funding has been asked to focus, in the first instance, on investigating
has been provided to various delivery partners and their the feasibility of calculating a precise number of people
receivable portfolios have been ‘warehoused’ in a special affected and the compensation due to them from the
purpose entity. The aggregate sum of certain receivable Libyan Government. This is an important preliminary
portfolios reached a desired critical mass whereby a step. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO)
capital markets refinancing (or securitisation) can proceed, believes that, provided the Special Representative acts
repaying the funding. The transaction is expected to honestly, reasonably, in good faith and without negligence
complete before the end of the financial year 2019-20. in the performance of his obligations under the terms
As part of the transaction, a credit enhancement in and conditions agreed with him, he should be indemnified
the form of a capped second loss guarantee will be against any liability arising from this role. The FCO
agreed. The guarantee issued by the Department is notified Parliament of its intention to undertake this
capped at up to £30 million and the ‘second loss’ contingent liability on 15 October 2019. As Parliament
element means that the participating delivery partners dissolved before the 14 sitting days required for its
will fund and suffer an agreed amount up to the first consideration expired, the Departmental Minute is being
loss threshold should defaults in the portfolio occur. re-laid today in the House of Commons. Further details
are set out therein.
The guarantee is not expected to last for more than
[HCWS32]
seven years and in practice will likely be much shorter.
The beneficiary is the securitisation vehicle (a newly
incorporated entity) which will purchase the facilities as
part of the transaction. The Department will receive a
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
commercial fee in return for the guarantee.
As a matter of record, I will be laying a Departmental
Minute today explaining the procedure followed and Ministerial Corrections
containing a description of the liability undertaken.
[HCWS35]
The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): I would like
to inform the House that a written answer I gave on
8 October 2019, to the former hon. Member for Blackpool
TREASURY South contained an error and wish to correct the formal
record.
Retail Prices Index: Consultation In my reply, I was incorrectly advised and stated
that ‘The Chair at Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS
Foundation Trust and the Chair at East Lancashire
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sajid Javid): Yesterday, Hospitals NHS Trust sought the views of NHS England
I wrote to the Chair of the House of Lords Economic and NHS Improvement on the possibility of merging
Affairs Committee to inform him that the joint consultation services and provision between the two trusts.”
between the Government and UK Statistics Authority The correct position is that the Chair at Blackpool
(UKSA) on a proposed change to address the shortcomings Teaching Hospitals NHS FT did seek advice from
in the Retail Price Index (RPI) will now launch at Budget NHS England and NHS Improvement (NHSEI), as to
2020. The consultation had been scheduled to launch whether they would support a proposal for a joint Chief
this month. However, following the general election and Executive Officer, working across both organisations.
my confirmation of the Budget date, I have agreed with These conversations did not involve discussion around
UKSA that the consultation will now launch at Budget. merging services or provision.
37WS Written Statements 14 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 38WS

Both trusts provided NHSEI with a number of officers have a duty to have regard to it. The revised
assurances that having a joint Chief Executive working code of practice should be used in conjunction with the
across two organisations would bring actual benefits College of Policing authorised professional practice
and improve the care of patient populations in Blackpool (APP) for armed policing. Alongside the APP the code
and East Lancashire. NHSEI confirmed that they would of practice will help to ensure that the police force
be happy with those arrangements pending the appropriate maintains the high standards for the police use of
approvals from within their own organisations. On 1 May firearms, specialist munitions and less lethal weapons,
Kevin McGee was appointed as interim Chief Executive for which the UK is renowned.
of Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, The new code also addresses the recommendation
while remaining as Chief Executive and Accountable Officer made to the Home Office by the Anthony Grainger
of East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust. On 4 October public inquiry. The inquiry, which was established following
2019 this joint appointment was made permanent. the shooting of Anthony Grainger by the police in
Powers under Section 56A and 56AA of the NHS March 2012, concerns the authorisation of new weapon
Act 2006 enables an NHS Foundation Trust (FT) to systems. It stated:
merge with another FT or NHS Trust. The trusts are “The Secretary for State of the Home Department should ensure
required to make a joint application to NHS Improvement that the new code of practice on police use of firearms and less
for any merger to go ahead. Where a merger involves an lethal weapons contains an express prohibition on the use of a
NHS Trust, this must also be supported by the Secretary new weapon system by the police service until the approval
of State. Any decisions by the two trusts need to reflect process set out in the code of practice has been completed and the
new systems has been approved by the Secretary of State”.
the views of local stakeholders, including local Members
of Parliament. The Government accept this recommendation. The
[HCWS31] revised code makes it clear that all new less lethal
weapons and specialist munitions for use by police
forces in England and Wales, and all significant changes
to these weapons, must be approved by the Home
HOME DEPARTMENT Secretary.
In relation to the other recommendations, addressed
Armed Policing Code of Practice to the police and others, it is the Government’s intention
to provide a formal response in due course, once we
have fully considered the report, and any recommendations
The Secretary of State for the Home Department therein. My officials have asked the National Police
(Priti Patel): As Secretary of State for the Home Chiefs’ Council and Greater Manchester police to set
Department, I have today given approval for the College out how they will respond to the concerns raised by the
of Policing to issue the code of practice for armed inquiry and improve the safety of armed policing operations.
policing and police use of less lethal weapons. Finally, I would like to thank our police officers for
The code of practice describes the roles and the invaluable role they play in keeping the country safe,
responsibilities of chief officers in relation to armed and the College of Policing for the work it has done on
policing and less lethal weapons. It is relevant to all the code of practice. The code of practice has been laid
police officers in England and Wales involved in armed before Parliament today and copies will be available
policing or the use of less lethal weapons setting out as from the Vote Office. It will also be available to view
it does the basic principles of the selection, evaluation, on the College of Policing website https://www.college.
approval, authorisation, acquisition, training and police.uk/Pages/Home.aspx and on gov.uk https://www.gov.
deployment of these weapons by the police. uk/government/publications/armed-policing-and-
police-use-of-less-lethal-weapons-code-of-practice.
The code replaces the 2003 code of practice for the
[HCWS34]
police use of firearms and less lethal weapons. The code
has a statutory basis in law, meaning that all police
39WS Written Statements 15 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 40WS

Written Statements with Libyan Prime Minister Serraj. HRVP Borrell updated
Ministers on his plans to engage with all players involved,
with the objective of moving towards a political solution
Wednesday 15 January 2020 within the framework of the Berlin process and UN-led
mediated efforts.
BUSINESS, ENERGY AND The United Nations (UN) Special Representative
INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY and Head of the UN Support Mission in Libya (UNSMIL),
Ghassan Salame, briefed Ministers on his work to prepare
for the planned Berlin summit, which will focus on
UK Space Agency: SatelLife Competition 2020 practical initiatives towards long-term stability in Libya.
Dr Murrison expressed full support for German efforts
The Minister for Universities, Science, Research and to boost regional co-operation, and underscored the
Innovation (Chris Skidmore): The UK Space Agency is need for international unity, particularly in support of
offering young people expert advice and the chance to the UN process and of the strict enforcement of the UN
connect with space industry representatives, potential arms embargo.
investors and commercial partners, as well as a share of Recent developments in Iran and Iraq
£50,000 for their ideas of how satellites could improve
life on Earth. The Secretary General of the North Atlantic Treaty
Organisation (NATO), Jens Stoltenberg, briefed Ministers
Satellite services such as navigation, communications
on the latest developments in Iraq.
and earth observation support industrial sectors worth
£300 billion to the UK economy. This competition gives Ministers emphasised the need for the de-escalation
young people the chance to test new ideas with space of tensions in the region and maximum restraint as well
experts and perhaps one day become part of the UK as condemning attacks on coalition forces engaged in
space sector, which already supports 42,000 jobs and the fight against Da’esh. They stressed their continued
could create thousands more this decade. support for Iraq’s stability and reconstruction and urged
By supporting the UK’s next generation of scientists Iran to return to full compliance with the Joint
and engineers, the competition will help turn young Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPoA) without delay.
people’s ideas into real-world proposals that could eventually Dr Murrison supported calls for de-escalation and
transform our lives—from saving our planet from climate shared our deep concern at Iran’s latest announcement
change, to improving healthcare services. of non-compliance with the JCPoA. Dr Murrison also
Anyone aged between 11 and 22 years old has until offered the United Kingdom’s condolences to those
3 March 2020 to enter the competition through the UK affected by the Ukraine Airlines crash, and called for
Space Agency’s website. The winners will go on to pitch EU support for a full investigation.
their ideas to a panel of industry experts, with the [HCWS37]
opportunity to gain further advice and support.
The Government are committed to establishing a
National Space Council and developing a UK space
strategy, while establishing commercial spaceflight from Outcomes of the Foreign Affairs Councils: 11 November
UK spaceports for the first time, to help the UK lead and 9 December 2019
the way in this fast-growing, high-technology sector. It
is my own personal ambition to ensure the sector has a
bright future, and I would encourage all young people The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher
who are fascinated by space to enter the SatelLife Pincher): The 11 November and 9 December Foreign
competition and to play a key part in the second space age. Affairs Councils (FACs) took place in Brussels while
[HCWS39] Parliament was dissolved. Federica Mogherini, the High
Representative of the European Union for Foreign
Affairs and Security Policy (HRVP), chaired the November
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE FAC with her replacement Josep Borrell chairing the
December FAC. The United Kingdom’s Ambassador
Foreign Affairs Council: 10 January 2020 to the Political and Security Committee, Paul Johnston,
represented the United Kingdom at both the November
and December FAC.
The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher
Pincher): On 10 January, the High Representative of the November FAC
European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy At the November FAC, HRVP Mogherini briefed
(HRVP), Josep Borrell, convened an extraordinary Foreign Ministers on Venezuela, Bolivia, and Lebanon and
Affairs Council (FAC) in Brussels to address recent touched on Turkey’s actions in North-East Syria. Ministers
developments in Iraq and Libya. My right hon. Friend also adopted a framework for sanctions in response to
the Minister of State for the Middle East and North Turkey’s hydrocarbons explorations activity in the eastern
Africa (Dr Andrew Murrison) attended the meeting. Mediterranean.
Libya On Hong Kong, the United Kingdom stressed the
Ministers exchanged views on recent developments in need for support for the right to peaceful protest;
Libya, including the military escalation around Tripoli condemnation of the violence; the need for a proportionate
and the EU’s engagement. HRVP Borrell briefed on response; the importance of China upholding the Joint
his recent diplomatic engagement, including with the Declaration; and the need for investigations into the
E4 (France, Germany, Italy and United Kingdom) and treatment of protestors.
41WS Written Statements 15 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 42WS

Ministers discussed the EU’s approach to Iran and During the working lunch, Ministers informally discussed
Gulf Regional Security, following Tehran’s announcement the FAC’s working methods. The new HRVP set out his
of further non-compliance with the Joint Comprehensive priorities, including the Western Balkans, Europe’s
Plan of Action (JCPoA). Neighbourhood and the Middle-East, as well as on how
The United Kingdom highlighted our commitment the EU could work together more effectively to deliver
to the JCPoA while noting that Iranian actions were operational outcomes.
putting the deal under pressure. We stressed the importance Conclusions
of all parties engaging in comprehensive negotiations At the November FAC, the Council extended sanctions
and of the Instrument in Support of Trade Exchange on Venezuela for a year due to persistent actions
(INSTEX) to avoid the collapse of the deal and to undermining democracy, the rule of law and respect for
support regional security. human rights. It also adopted a framework for restrictive
Ministers discussed the political situation in Afghanistan measures in response to Turkey’s hydrocarbons explorations
and reviewed the prospects for peace, following the activity in the eastern Mediterranean.
presidential election. HRVP Mogherini underlined the At the December FAC, the Council agreed a number of
EU’s willingness to contribute both politically and measures:
financially to peace talks, and its readiness to support
an inclusive Afghan political process. The United Kingdom The Council decided to maintain individual restrictive
stressed the importance of reductions in Taliban violence measures against several personalities of the Democratic
and renewed US-Taliban talks as an important step Republic of the Congo (DRC) regarding the obstruction
towards the relaunch of intra-Afghan negotiations. of the electoral process and human rights violations,
and to lift these measures for two other persons.
Ministers had an exchange of views with the Sudanese The Council also adopted conclusions on the DRC
Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok. They reaffirmed the that support the most recent elections as the first peaceful
EU’s strong political commitment to support the civilian transfer of power in the country’s history and state the
transitional government, as well as the EU’s readiness EU’s readiness for a gradual engagement in support to
to provide financial aid for the transition, including in the DRC Government’s reform agenda, based on reciprocal
support of economic and state structure reform. They commitments.
highlighted the importance of ensuring that the civilian
transition remains an inclusive process, including an The Council adopted conclusions on Sudan, recognising
appropriate role for youth and women. the opportunity for democracy, peace and prosperity
following the political transition. They highlight Sudan’s
December FAC importance in the region’s stability and reaffirm the
In December, Ministers expressed their concerns about EU’s commitment to accompanying Sudan on its reform
the Turkey-Libya memorandum of understanding on path towards democracy. While welcoming the transition
delimitation of maritime jurisdiction and on security Government’s recent steps, they reiterate the EU’s concern
and military co-operation. They also reflected on the for the deteriorating humanitarian situation and call
political situation in Libya and the Berlin process, which upon the Sudanese authorities to remove remaining
aims to find a sustainable solution to the situation in the bureaucratic obstacles to humanitarian and development
country. actors’ work.
Ministers exchanged views on Ukraine, in the context The Council adopted conclusions on the civilian
of the Normandy Format leaders’ summit, which took Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) Compact,
place in Paris the following week, and the situation in reaffirming its commitment to make civilian CSDP
Iran, following the recent meeting of the Joint Commission more capable, effective, flexible and responsive. They
of the JCPoA, as well as recent protests. HRVP Borrell highlight CSDP missions’ significant contribution to
briefed on the situation in Bolivia, Moldova and Hong international peace and stability as an essential part of
Kong. On the latter, the United Kingdom underlined the EU’s integrated approach to external conflicts and
the importance of meaningful government efforts around crises. They also emphasise the need to strengthen the
dialogue to prevent a return to violence. EU’s role and capacity to act as a security provider
through CSDP.
Ministers discussed EU-Africa relations in preparation
for 2020’s Ministerial and summit-level meetings between The Council adopted conclusions on the EU Arctic
the EU and the African Union (AU). They addressed policy, and noted that the EU should continue to make
the political, economic, security and demographic aspects a significant contribution in both regional and multilateral
of the relationship as well as important cross-cutting fora.
issues such as climate change and digitalisation. Ministers The Council adopted a decision in support of
emphasised that the next summit would be an important strengthening biological safety and security in Latin
milestone in modernising and scaling up the EU’s America in line with the implementation of United
partnership with Africa. Nations Security Council Resolution 1540 (2004) on
Ahead of human rights Day on 10 December, Ministers non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and
discussed the promotion and protection of human rights their means of delivery.
in the world. They assessed the EU’s work on human The Council extended the implementation period of
rights, the instruments at its disposal and its priorities the decision in support of the destruction of Syrian
for the coming months, reaffirming the EU’s leadership chemical weapons to a total of 48 months. This extension
in the protection and promotion of human rights worldwide. of the implementation period will allow the Organisation
HRVP Borrell announced the launch of preparatory for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW),
work on a possible sanctions regime to address serious which is responsible for the technical implementation of
human rights violations. the project, to reach its planned objectives.
43WS Written Statements 15 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 44WS

The Council adopted a decision in support of SEESAC connectivity across the UK, to ensure all corners of the
disarmament and arms control activities in south east country drive the economy, and fully benefit from prosperity
Europe reducing the threat of illicit small arms and in years to come.
light weapons (SALW) and their ammunition. A review of regional connectivity will ensure all
The Council adopted the EU position within the nations and regions of the UK have the domestic transport
Ghana-EU Economic Partnership Agreement Committee connections local communities rely on—including regional
regarding the definition of the concept of “originating services from local airports. This review, led by DfT, will
products” and methods of administrative cooperation. consider all options to ensure we continue to have good
The Council adopted a decision setting out the EU’s regional connectivity. The DfT will work closely with
position within the administrative committee for the the aviation industry, local regions and devolved nations
international convention on the harmonisation of frontier to identify how we can support connectivity.
controls of goods, which aims to reduce barriers to As part of this work and ahead of the March Budget,
international trade and facilitate the movement of goods the Treasury will also be reviewing air passenger duty
at the international level, to reduce administrative burdens (APD) to ensure regional connectivity is supported
on member states. while meeting the UK’s climate change commitments to
[HCWS36] meet net zero by 2050.
The outcomes of these reviews will benefit the entire
industry, passengers, communities, regions and nations
TRANSPORT across the UK.
These measures featured in discussions between the
Department for Transport, the Department for Business,
Regional Connectivity Energy and Industrial Strategy and HM Treasury and
Europe’s largest regional airline, Flybe, which plays an
important role in the UK’s connectivity.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Grant Shapps):
The Department for Transport, the Treasury and the HMG was notified about the difficulties of Flybe on
Department for Business, Energy, and Industrial Strategy 11 January, and since then we have worked intensively
have been in discussions with Europe’s largest regional with the company to understand their financial position
airline, Flybe, which plays an important role in the and explore options. In the light of these discussions,
UK’s connectivity by flying regional routes. the management and shareholders on 14 January took
action to set Flybe on a recovery path.
In a sign of the Prime Minister’s commitment to
[HCWS38]
levelling up all regions of the UK, the Government
have announced additional measures to support regional
45WS Written Statements 16 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 46WS

Written Statements It will create opportunities for new entrants who want
to farm but have in the past had little prospect to do so.
And it will incentivise longer-term thinking and investment
Thursday 16 January 2020 while helping farm businesses to become more resilient
and productive.
The Bill will also modernise aspects of agricultural
regulation and make sure that they are tailored to the
ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS domestic market. It will include new UK-wide provisions
on organics and fertiliser regulations. It will enable new
marketing standards to be set for agricultural products
Agriculture Bill in England and reform agricultural tenancies in England
and Wales to reflect a more modern and fair agricultural
system.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and It has always been the Government’s intention to
Rural Affairs (Theresa Villiers): Today, I am introducing change our agricultural policy once we had left the EU.
the Government’s landmark Agriculture Bill to the House The Agriculture Bill introduced on 12 September 2018
of Commons. This Bill delivers a new settlement for fell with the dissolution of Parliament last year, but the
agriculture and those involved in this vital industry principles in that Bill had broad support in this House
should be in no doubt of this Government’s absolute and with our farmers and land managers across this
commitment to them and all those who produce our country. We now have a second chance to pass an
food and protect our environment. Agriculture Bill that will set a bold new course for
Agriculture is one of this country’s great industries farming in this country for decades to come.
and nearly three-quarters of land in England is farmed. The Government is clear that future policy will respect
But despite its scale and importance to our nation, the devolved status of farming. By bringing back powers
decisions about its future have, for the past half from Brussels to Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh, devolved
century, largely been decided in Brussels. All the while, Administrations can design policies that meet the needs
our priorities have been overlooked, our productivity of their own farmers, foresters and consumers and the
stifled, and farmers hindered in their preservation of challenges of their unique landscapes. The Welsh
our environment. These are the legacies of the common Government and Northern Irish Executive have asked
agricultural policy (CAP). the Government to extend certain powers in the Bill to
The CAP awarded subsidies based on the size of Wales and Northern Ireland. The Scottish Government
individual land holdings, and not the contribution farmers have chosen not to take any powers in the Bill and have
make to our society. The top 10% of recipients received instead introduced the Agriculture (Retained EU Law
the lion’s share of payments—almost 50%—while the and Data) (Scotland) Bill in the Scottish Parliament in
bottom 20% received just 2%. Meanwhile, our farmers November 2019.
struggled with burdensome and inflexible bureaucracy This is an ambitious Bill which makes the most of the
at the expense of our countryside and their own well-being. opportunities created from leaving the European Union.
Our Agriculture Bill marks a decisive shift and will It marks the first domestic farming policy in nearly
remove the constraints and burdens of the CAP and 50 years and the first step towards a brighter, better and
replace it in England with a new and fairer system that greener future for farming and our environment outside
rewards farmers properly for the work they do to enhance the EU.
our environment and safeguard high animal welfare [HCWS43]
standards. And it will do so gradually allowing farmers
and land managers time to adapt to our reforms and Agriculture and Fisheries Council
transform the agriculture sector for the better. Change
takes time and the Government are conscious that
farmers will need to plan and adapt. The Bill will enable The Minister of State, Department for Environment,
a seven-year agricultural transition in England as we Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I represented
gradually move away from the CAP. the UK at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council in
At the heart of the Government’s proposal is a new Brussels on 16, 17 and 18 December.
system for England that pays public money for the delivery On fisheries, the focus of the Council was EU quota
of public goods, such as clean air and water, from which negotiations, involving decisions on fishing opportunities
we all benefit but the market alone does not provide. for the next year for quota stocks in the North sea,
The Bill will allow us to invest public money in enriching Atlantic, the English channel, Irish and Celtic seas.
wildlife habitats, preventing flooding, improving the Fishing opportunities are set under the rules of the
quality of air and soil, planting more trees and raising reformed common fisheries policy, which aims to have
standards of animal welfare. The enhancement of these all stocks fished at sustainable levels by 2020 at the
public goods will help manage and mitigate the effects latest.
of climate change which is of profound public concern. Prior to the Council, a number of negotiations had
The Bill will therefore be instrumental in delivering on taken place with third countries, such as EUNorway,
the Government’s crucial goal to be the first generation which set fishing opportunities for certain stocks. The
to leave the environment in a better state than we found it. EU share of these opportunities were endorsed at the
This Bill champions food producers and makes ground Council.
breaking strides to allow for a fairer, more transparent This year member states agreed on significant cuts in
supply chain that will increase productivity and protect cod quotas due to scientific concerns on the state of cod
producers and consumers from unfair trading practices. stocks in the Irish Sea, west of Scotland and Celtic sea.
47WS Written Statements 16 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 48WS

The UK took a lead on setting zero total allowable The Spanish and French delegations updated Council
catch (TAC) for Celtic cod, which ensured that the agreed about the impact of US tariffs on European agrifood
quota would allow the Celtic sea fleet to avoid being products.
tied up before they fished their target species quota. The Czech delegation informed Council of budget
To further protect vulnerable cod stocks, the UK has flexibility within the European maritime and fisheries
also successfully pushed for enhanced rules on sustainable fund 2014-2020.
fishing practices such as changing net sizes, to help cod [HCWS42]
stocks recover.
Concerning seabass, Ministers decided to slightly
increase the by-catch levels in the northern areas and FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE
grant additional flexibility in their management. The
bag limit for seabass recreational fisheries was set to two
specimen per fisherman per day under certain conditions, Foreign Affairs Council
and only from 1 March to 30 November 2020 for
northern seabass. The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher
Total fishing opportunities agreed for 2020 included Pincher): The High Representative of the European
increased quotas for: Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (HRVP),
North sea haddock (+23%) Josep Borrell, will chair the Foreign Affairs Council
(FAC) in Brussels on 20 January.
Sole in the western channel (+19%)
The FAC will discuss current affairs, the Sahel, climate
The Commission also provided a general approach diplomacy, and will be followed by an informal ministerial
on regulations on Baltic cod and western fisheries herring. lunch to discuss the middle east peace process.
It announced that it will take measures to help fishermen Current affairs
cope with the harmful socioeconomic effects of the HRVP Borrell will raise Bolivia, ahead of the future
severe fishing restrictions on cod and western herring in elections, and the prospects of sending an EU electoral
the Baltic sea that are already in place and agreed for observation mission for May’s elections.
2020.
On Venezuela, the HRVP will touch on recent
The primary focus for agriculture was a debate on the developments following the parliamentary elections on
post-2020 CAP reform package, including three legislative 5 January and plans for EU engagement.
proposals: the first on CAP strategic plans; the second We also expect Germany to debrief on the planned
on financing, management and monitoring of the CAP; Berlin summit on Libya. HRVP Borrell will focus on
and the third on common market organisation (CMO) what role the EU can play in support of any outcomes
of agricultural products. The Commission proposed a in Berlin.
new delivery model that would allow member states The Sahel
more flexibility in the way they use EU funds and would
allow them to tailor their programmes. We expect HRVP Borrell to debrief on the outcomes
of the G5 Sahel summit in Pau on 13 January. Ministers
In the discussion that followed, EU member states’ will discuss the EU’s approach to the Sahel in the context
Ministers broadly welcomed the report, considering it of the deteriorating security situation in the region.
as a good basis for continuing work under the incoming Climate diplomacy
Croatian presidency. They indicated that the “new delivery Ministers will assess the EU’s climate diplomacy strategy,
model” and the “green architecture” were the main drawing on the December European Council outcome.
elements requiring further debate, the latter also in light They will consider how they can work together to drive
of the recently published “European Green Deal” ambitious action at COP26, in order to deliver on the
communication. Amongst further issues, interventions promise of the 2015 Paris agreement. The United Kingdom
in certain sectors and coupled support were also mentioned will emphasise the importance of, and its commitment
as elements which should be discussed further. Ministers to, tackling climate change as a national and global
stressed the importance for the agricultural budget to priority ahead of COP26.
be in line with the proposed enhanced environmental
and climate ambition. Informal ministerial lunch on the middle east peace process
Following the FAC, Ministers will discuss the middle
The Council also adopted a conclusion on EU action east peace process and the wider security and stability
to protect the world’s forests during a ministerial lunch in the middle east. The United Kingdom will reiterate
debate. Member states welcomed the Commission’s political its support for a negotiated settlement based on the
guidance on protecting and restoring the world’s forests. two-state solution, leading to a safe and secure Israel
Five other items were discussed separately under living alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state.
“any other business”: Ministers may also discuss developments in the wider
region which were last discussed at the FAC on 10 January,
The presidency informed the Council of the issue following the E3 (France, United Kingdom and Germany)
with long-term funding of the EU minor use of pesticides triggering the dispute resolution mechanism (DRM) on
co-ordination facility (EUMUCF). 14 January.
The French delegation informed Council about their Council conclusions
views on informing consumers about the origin of food The Council is expected to adopt conclusions on
products. climate diplomacy to give momentum and focus to its
The presidency updated Council about the conclusions external engagement ahead of COP26.
on the updated EU bioeconomic strategy. [HCWS41]
49WS Written Statements 16 JANUARY 2020 Written Statements 50WS

TRANSPORT 107(3) to extend the deadline and make a statement to

the Houses of Parliament announcing the new deadline.
Manston Airport The Secretary of State received the examining authority’s
report on the Manston airport development consent
order application on 18 October 2019 and the current
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport deadline for a decision is 18 January 2020.
(Ms Nusrat Ghani): I have been asked by my right hon.
Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, to make The deadline for the decision is to be extended to
this written ministerial statement. This statement concerns 18 May 2020 (an extension of four months) to enable
the application made by RiverOak Strategic Partners further information on a range of issues to be provided
Ltd (“the applicant”) under the Planning Act 2008, of by the applicant and other interested parties before
17 July 2018 for the proposed reopening and development determination of the application by the Secretary of
of Manston airport in Kent. State.
Under sub-section 107(1) of the Planning Act 2008, The decision to set a new deadline is without prejudice
the Secretary of State must make his decision within to the decision on whether to give development consent.
three months of receipt of the examining authority’s [HCWS40]
report unless exercising the power under sub-section
1P Petitions 20 DECEMBER 2019 Petitions 2P

Petitions Observations from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary

of State for Health and Social Care (Nadine Dorries):
Friday 20 December 2019 The Government are aware that the Midlands
Partnership NHS Foundation Trust has carried out an
OBSERVATIONS engagement exercise to gain people’s views on establishing
permanent solutions for the services previously provided
at the George Bryan Centre before the fire. A report on
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE Tamworth George the outcomes from this exercise is expected to go to the
Bryan Centre trust’s board in January.
The petition of Kath Jones and Gwen Kingsley,
The Together We’re Better Sustainability and
Declares that we, the undersigned, are opposed to
Transformation Partnership (STP) is developing new
any proposal to close the George Bryan Centre, following
models of care for mental health services in Staffordshire
the fire at the George Bryan Centre on 10 February
and Stoke-on-Trent. Sustainability and transformation
2019; further that the centre provides vital mental health
partnerships bring local health and care leaders together
services, and is used by the local community of Tamworth
to plan around the long-term needs of local communities.
and its environs.
The Together We’re Better STP will, in 2020, carry out a
The petitioners therefore request that the House of formal consultation on transforming services in its area.
Commons urges the Government to help rebuild and
reopen the George Bryan Centre and to continue to The Government believe that local health and care
provide vital mental health services to the community organisations are best placed to make decisions on
as supported by 5179 Tamworth residents. commissioning services for their communities, working
And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Official Report, with local authorities, stakeholders and local populations
5 November 2019; Vol. 667, c. 15p .] to meet people’s needs.
[P002547]
3P Petitions 13 JANUARY 2020 Petitions 4P

Petition And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Sarah

Newton, Official Report, Tuesday 5 November 2019;
Vol. 667, c. 748.]
Monday 13 January 2020 [P002542]
Observations from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary
of State for Defence (James Heappey):
OBSERVATIONS
The names for a new ship or a class of ship are
initially proposed by the Royal Navy Ships’ Names and
Badges Committee (SNBC). In considering any name,
DEFENCE the Committee takes into account many aspects including
the history of that name, battle honours, recent affiliations,
Frigate named HMS Cornwall and the civic support that may go with it. The SNBC
presents its recommendations to the Navy Board; the
The petition of residents of Truro and Falmouth, name(s) chosen by the Navy Board are forwarded to the
Secretary of State for Defence before being submitted
Declares that one of the new Type 31e General Purpose to Her Majesty the Queen for approval.
Frigates should be named HMS Cornwall.
The names of the Type 31 Frigates have been proposed
The petitioners therefore request that the House of by the Navy Board. When names are agreed they will be
Commons urges the Government to ensure this is done. announced at appropriate opportunities in the future.
1MC Ministerial Corrections 13 JANUARY 2020 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

Ministerial Corrections The following is a further extract from that debate.

Brandon Lewis: I will be brief. I just want to respond

Monday 13 January 2020 to a couple of points that have been raised during the
debate. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul
Blomfield) quoted me during an interview some time
ago—with a German journalist, if I recall correctly.
HOME DEPARTMENT Sadly, he did not give the whole quote, so colleagues are
probably not quite aware of the point I was making,
European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill which was that the whole point of the settled status
scheme is to ensure that nobody is left behind and all
The following is an extract from the debate in the rights are properly protected. That is why not only are
Committee of the whole House on the European Union we running the scheme until the end of July 2021, but
(Withdrawal Agreement) Bill on Tuesday 7 January 2020. we have also said—as I said at the Dispatch Box again
today—that we will be looking to grant settled status to
Brandon Lewis: Let me finish the point. It takes five anybody who comes forward after that stage who has
to 10 minutes online in the same way as renewing a not acquired settled status after not applying for it for a
driving licence or passport. The hon. Lady should be good, reasonable reason. This scheme is based on a very
aware that, as of the last set of official figures, only two different principle.
people have been actively refused settled status, and
[Official Report, 7 January 2020, Vol. 669, c. 336.]
both refusals were on serious criminality grounds. I
stand by this country’s right to protect the security and An error has been identified in my closing speech on
safety of people in this country by refusing settled amendment 5:
status to people with a serious criminal record. The correct wording should have been:
[Official Report, 7 January 2020, Vol. 669, c. 321-22.] Brandon Lewis: I will be brief. I just want to respond
Letter of correction from the Minister for Security, the to a couple of points that have been raised during the
right hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis): debate. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul
Blomfield) quoted me during an interview some time
An error has been identified in the response I gave to ago—with a German journalist, if I recall correctly.
the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford). Sadly, he did not give the whole quote, so colleagues are
The correct response should have been: probably not quite aware of the point I was making,
which was that the whole point of the settled status
Brandon Lewis: Let me finish the point. It takes five scheme is to ensure that nobody is left behind and all
to 10 minutes online in the same way as renewing a rights are properly protected. That is why not only are
driving licence or passport. The hon. Lady should be we running the scheme until the end of June 2021, but
aware that, as of the last set of official figures, only five we have also said—as I said at the Dispatch Box again
people have been actively refused settled status, and today—that we will be looking to grant settled status to
both refusals were on serious criminality grounds. I anybody who comes forward after that stage who has
stand by this country’s right to protect the security and not acquired settled status after not applying for it for a
safety of people in this country by refusing settled good, reasonable reason. This scheme is based on a very
status to people with a serious criminal record. different principle.