Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive234
SPECIFICO
[edit]| Netoholic (talk · contribs) is warned not to use administrative boards to further disputes on Wikipedia. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SPECIFICO[edit]
In just over two days since the close of an AE request I made regarding SPECIFICO (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive232#SPECIFICO) up to my notice on his talk page about this HOUNDING, he had made 36 edits total, at least 17 of those (47%) were spent reverting me, replying to my comments on talk pages, and mentioning me by name - often within moments - and never making overtures toward congeniality, but filled with insistent, WP:BATTLEGROUND "This is how it is" attitude. I'm sure he'll have some reasonable explanation for individual actions, and some were naturally part of mutual exchanges, but his overall focus on me and lack of effort to try other areas of work to avoid it is undeniable. This sort of activity was the case even before the other AE, also, but I've limited my diffs to after he received his logged warning to show a pattern of reprisal. When I brought this to his attention, he was dismissive, and instead continued to repeat a claim that I reverted a page move he did. After several times telling him he was mistaken, and even showing diff proof that it was someone else who moved it, SPECIFICO has not acknowledged his mistake. My feeling is that he is not adhering to the warning given, and is pursuing an effort designed to confound my interactions with other editors based on a mistaken belief in a perceived wrong that is provably incorrect. The prior logged warning seems to have fallen on deaf ears. -- Netoholic @ 22:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC) I don't think this relates much with the User:Factchecker atyourservice AE going on, except perhaps as a concrete, time-limited example of SPECIFICO's style of BATTLEGROUND tactics. This is strictly covering SPECIFICO's behavior within 2 days of receiving a warning about expectations of behavior, which one would assume he would do everything to at least initially avoid such scrutiny. Yet, I detect no change in his approach, no remorse, and no acknowledgement of the problem. -- Netoholic @ 00:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC) If I had to point to one action which I feel especially clear about his behavior, its the 20:49 22 May - "copy edit" above. I had reached an amicable solution with another editor, then SPECIFICO almost immediately crushed that section to dust under the misleading edit comment "copy edit". He didn't inform the talk page of his intentions. To my mind, it felt like he couldn't stand seeing any minor agreement or cooperation taking place, so he salted the earth. -- Netoholic @ 04:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC) To editor Sandstein: - The section of my diffs labeled "Various" is included just to demonstrate my statement that 47% of his recent edits have been directed at me. Take for example this AfD, 4 editors have voted "Keep", but SPECIFICO has only directly replied to my vote comment. I do not reciprocate. I do not direct comments at him unless its a reply to something he said to me or mentioned me in. I keep quite busy across the project. In this same timespan I've created a new article of about 11k characters. I've continued my participation in WP:RM. But I do want to provide input on the main article the diffs are from, and when I do, I want to interact with a variety of other editors there. I do not deserve to be singled out by SPECIFICO and challenged on -everything-. When deciding on HOUNDING, ask yourself this:
-- Netoholic @ 07:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC) To any of the admins. You may close this at anytime. Though my intent was in good faith, based on the responses, I now know better when and how its appropriate to use the available conflict resolution venues. You can be assured I have no intent on using this one again regarding this editor. -- Netoholic @ 03:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SPECIFICO[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SPECIFICO[edit]I think I responded adequately to Netoholic's concern before he filed this complaint. The thread is here [1] I was surprised then to see him file shortly thereafter. Please note that Netoholic's assertion that I failed to correct my error concerning his opposition to my page move is incorrect. As can be seen in the history log, I struck and corrected it 90 minutes before he filed this complaint (immediately after I checked the relevant diffs). That thread was his second visit to my talk page in the two days since his earlier AE complaint was closed. The first one is here [2] SPECIFICO talk 00:08, 23 May 2018 (UTC) For the sake of completeness, in case editors review this file in the future and especially if they've not seen last week's similar complaint, I am providing this link to show the "user interactions" between me and Netoholic over the past 2 years. [3] As can be seen, in 10 of the 13 overlaps, Netoholic's edits followed mine. And one of those pages was Stefan Molyneux where he was violating the TBAN imposed by the community in 2014. Previously, he had appeared to be recruiting me to Molyneux' teachings. [4], for which he was blocked [5]. I don't think any IBAN is needed so long as the record is clear so that this matter need not be relitigated in the future. For my part, I think we can move on now. SPECIFICO talk Statement by Objective3000[edit]I suggest the filer read WP:PETARD and withdraw the complaint before it's too late. O3000 (talk) 23:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Tryptofish[edit]I've been editing in some of these topic areas recently (example), and I think that this filing should be understood as being in the same "series" as the one just above, about Factchecker-atyourservice. I can confirm that Specifico has been uncivil some of the time, but there's a lot of it going around. And there is some aspect of boomerang here. I don't know if AE can really handle it or whether there needs to be yet a third ArbCom case, but there probably do have to be a rather large number of topic bans. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by MrX[edit]I have to agree with Objective3000 here. A gentle boomerang might be in order. From where I observe, it seems that Netoholic may be pursuing a grudge against SPECIFICO. For example, this comment is uncalled for. A similar comment directed at another editor: [6] Perhaps Netoholic should be reminded that Wikipedia is not a battleground.- MrX 🖋 23:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Lionelt[edit]Several behavioral policy violations have been lodged against SPECIFICO relating to the Political views article. Netoholic has presented 17 diffs in support of HOUNDING and BLUDGEONING allegations. While these edits look suspicious, it is difficult to determine if these edits are evidence of violations or merely the result of normal editing. Regarding the allegation of ASPERSIONS it does appear that SPECIFICO corrected the error. At this time I cannot recommend sanctions against SPECIFICO. Some editors have suggested BOOMERANG against Netoholic. This is outrageous. It is unconscionable to threaten an editor in good standing with sanctions for bringing a issue to the attention of the community in good faith. With a limited admin corps we depend on editors to help control disruption and maintain civility and to attack these editors is counterproductive and a violation of AGF. BOOMERANG threats without conclusive evidence in the form of diffs should be treated as a personal attack WP:NPA "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki." – Lionel(talk) 04:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Moxy[edit]
Statement by Geogene[edit]I've read Netoholic's diffs. They establish that there's an ongoing content dispute, but fail to demonstrate any behavioral issue. No, if you want to see behavioral issues--Netoholic personalizing the dispute--see MrX's diffs. I wouldn't say that those are heinous, either, but they tend to raise doubts about Netoholic as a force for civility in the dispute. I agree with Objective3000 and others that the question is whether this should close with a boomerang for Netoholic or not. That boomerang would probably be an informal warning from an admin about using AE for BATTLEGROUND ends. Geogene (talk) 05:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFG[edit]Nothing to see here. All editors should be advised to cut the drama down a notch. — JFG talk 06:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof[edit]This is the second time in three days that Netoholic has attempted to have someone who has opposed their edits sanctioned through an administrative process; just the other day Netoholic filed an unfounded AN3RR case against me for reverting a block-evading sockpuppet on an article that Netoholic had neither edited nor engaged in any talk page discussion at any time, meaning the only reason for them to file the sanction request was to "punish" me for disagreeing with them on other articles. I suggest that Netoholic should engage those he perceives to be his "opponents" in good-faith discussion rather than poorly-supported and time-wasting sanctions requests. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:19, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning SPECIFICO[edit]
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Waleswatcher
[edit]| No action but Waleswatcher advised to review the expectations for editing in this area. --NeilN talk to me 14:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC) | ||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Waleswatcher[edit]
Discretionary sanctions related to firearms articles. Link to DS warning on user page [[7]] Talk pages showing DS notice Talk:AR-15_style_rifle Talk:Colt_AR-15 - This page does not have a DS warning. Relevant policies, guidelines wp:Disruptive editing, WP:consensus, in particular WP:NOCONSENSUS and wp:forumshop With respect to disruptive editing,
And
And
Disruptive editing via failure to follow WP:BRD
User notification [[31]] Springee (talk) 01:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Update While Waleswatcher's behavior may not have crossed any deep red lines above the disruptive editing and failure to respect WP:CONSENSUS policies continues. Here WW asked an admin if the "stable" version of an article was one that was unchanged after being unlocked for less than 36 hours [[32]]. The question went unanswered so WW decided to violate WP:NOCONSENSUS by restoring the new version of the text. The edit summary was misleading. Yes, the text was discussed on the talk page but at 4:4 their is no consensus to change the lead. This change, especially after asking an admin for advice is WP:RECKLESS and disruptive. Springee (talk) 13:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Waleswatcher[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Dlthewave[edit]Point #1 requires context to fully understand. It consists of moving the "Use in crime and mass shootings" section from near the bottom of the article to near the top. 18:06 4 April 2018 by Waleswatcher re-ordered sections to reflect importance, general interest, and the content of the lede 18:56 4 April 2018 by Springee Undid revision 834303022 by Waleswatcher (talk) please get consensus first. 20:25 4 April 2018 by Waleswatcher Undid revision 834308982 by Springee (talk) "Getting consensus" is not necessary for an edit on wikipedia. Rather, you should get consensus to undo. Please do not start an edit war. Use in crime and mass shootings is obviously more important than the modularity of the rifle, as is born out by the fact that one is discussed in the lede and the other not.)
Statement by Mr rnddude[edit]I am involved here, and I am also the individual who suggested this venue in preference to AN/I. If you're wondering why the venue move, feel free to do a Ctrl+F search of Archive 983 of AN/I for any one of Waleswatcher, Springee or anybody who has posted a comment at Talk:AR-15 style rifle or Talk:Colt AR-15. There's been a spot of bother, you might notice. I'm also editorially involved over at those two articles ... or rather became involved recently ... because I looked at AN/I. I'll post a comment here on my observations of Waleswatcher first. There's a couple of things that are obvious to me from them: a) they are a newbie and b) they are engaging in a crusade (whether this is a serious pet issue, or just the result of push back I don't know or care to comment). I have personally stayed out of the actual articles, so will comment only on things said on the talk page.
This is a bit jumbled and quickly put together, but it should cover many of the issues that have arisen from Waleswatchers' participation. I'm not going to advocate anything in particular, but will suggest that Waleswatcher needs their course corrected soon (ASAP). I haven't commented on anyone else's behaviour yet, though I might soon enough. There's a couple things that have given me pause, but nothing comparable to the above. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by (slaterstven)[edit]Both the filer and the accused have been up before ANI for various issues (in relation to this subject area), I am not sure either party is any more innocent then the other.Slatersteven (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Waleswatcher[edit]I have to object to Springee’s notification for this. Last night I saw the alert "you have new messages", but looking at my talk page I didn't see any change, so I discounted it. Looking at my talk page history I now see what happened - Springee deleted their previous comment on my talk page, which was a notification of another complaint that they opened and then closed later, and replaced it with this nearly identical new notice. The only reason I found this at all is I thought it was odd I was messaged but there was nothing there. Had anyone else posted on my talk page around the same time, I might never have noticed. Rather than deleting content on someone else's talk page, why not leave the old notification, or at least add a note saying what they had done? It's just another example of how Springee interacts with me (and maybe others). I'll respond at length later. Waleswatcher (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2018 (UTC) General comment - in the ten years I have edited wikipedia I have only rarely been involved in contentious pages like these, and I freely admit that I am not very familiar with the dispute resolution process. I think it’s a problem that there is such a complex thicket of guidelines, policies, etc. The resulting wikilawyering creates a formidable barrier for entry and it makes it easy for editors experienced in these venues to force out editors they don’t like. This is probably the wrong venue to discuss that (indicative of the problem - I have no idea what the right venue is) but I thought it was worth mentioning as it’s fully in play in these articles. Regarding the principles I'm accused of violating: 1. Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors. In my experience this describes many editors on these gun-related pages. In particular, it describes Springee. A look at their history shows that they have been "editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors" - where “extended time” is several years in their case. This includes the deletion of reliable sources posted by me and other editors, for instance here, here, and here. As for me, I’ve been editing these articles since last month. I do in fact hold the opinion that some of these articles should contain more information regarding mass shootings than they certainly do, and there is clearly opposition to that view. When I first started looking at them, I was puzzled by the lack of information in that regard. I'm far from the only one, even the international media has noticed this:
Next: 4. Does not engage in consensus building: a. repeatedly disregards other editors' questions or requests for explanations concerning edits or objections to edits; b. repeatedly disregards other editors' explanations for their edits. I think it was my repeated requests for explanations that were disregarded, not the other way around. I tried to engage and find a compromise version but could hardly get any of the opposed editors to state what their objections were (in fairness, Springee was far from the worst in this). I do admit to feeling pretty frustrated by this attitude. Rather than discuss the content of my edits, their response was to revert because of lack of consensus, and then demand I achieve consensus before restoring the edit. But when trying to achieve consensus, most of the responses were complaints about BRD etc. rather than about the substance of the edit. As a result, every proposed edit devolved into a deadlock.
5. Rejects or ignores community input: resists moderation and/or requests for comment, continuing to edit in pursuit of a certain point despite an opposing consensus from impartial editors. See above. It seems to me I was the one requesting comments and being ignored. I’m not going to respond to every specific point as this is already too long. I'll just make a few comments. Regarding edit warring, note that Springee reverted AR-15 style rifle three times in 24 hours (06:28, May 12, 2018, 13:35, May 12, 2018, and 13:56, May 12, 2018). I am guilty of reverting twice that day. 72bikers brought an ANI complaint against me for those reverts, which was dismissed since it clearly didn't violate 3RR. Regarding the forum shopping/VPP incident, I believed that the issue I (tried to) raise on VPP was sufficiently different that it merited a new discussion. The discussion on the talk page was regarding specific text I proposed to add to Colt AR-15#AR-15 style rifle, while on VPP the proposal was that that section be permanently WP:SYNCed to the lead of AR-15 style rifle, regardless of what was there or if it changed later. I thought (and still think) that would be a mechanism to help cut down on these disputes, since at least they could focus on AR-15 style rifle rather than both articles. I should have proposed that first, rather than proceeding as I did. I acknowledge I made a mess there, and I already apologized (and do so again now - I handled that incorrectly, sorry about that). Regarding my “threats” to edit here: I said what I intended to do on the talk page (which was different from what we had been discussing, or at least I thought so - see above). I got a lot of opposition, I listened to it, and as a result I never made the edit. Regarding the typo, Springee edited both their comment and my response. Editing my comment (and theirs after it was responded to) is a clear (if minor) violation of wiki's talk page guidelines WP:TPO (where it says "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page.", bold in the original). It annoyed me because I did not recognize that it was a typo when I responded (“clear lake of support” read as a rather poetic if non-standard phrase, and I was in a rush). Their edit changed the flavor of my response and I didn't like that, so I reverted. Their next edit showed as a revert of my revert, so I reverted that too and put a warning regarding WP:TPO on Springee's user page (by the way I don’t think this is a big deal; I'm responding only because Springee raised the issue). Waleswatcher (talk) 13:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC) One other comment: I did reach out to two admins for help on this here and here. Neither responded - which is totally understandable for any number of reasons, I'm not blaming them, just pointing out that I asked for guidance in how to handle these disputes before it came to this. Waleswatcher (talk) 14:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Waleswatcher[edit]
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Icewhiz
[edit]| No violation. The removals could have been done in one single edit. This is WP:3RR (and WP:1RR) 101. --NeilN talk to me 21:51, 26 May 2018 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Icewhiz[edit]
Breach of the restriction on Collaboration in German-occupied Poland article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Editnotices/Page/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe
Link to the page editing records [39]
Above removals occurred within 3 minutes timespan braking the dictate [41] of "one revert per 24 h" required on the article Collaboration in German-occupied Poland
User has been notified ->[43]
Discussion concerning Icewhiz[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Icewhiz[edit]These are consecutive edits, per WP:3RR (which is relevant to 1RR with 3 modified by 1) -
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Icewhiz[edit]
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Factchecker atyourservice
[edit]| Factchecker atyourservice is topic banned for three months from edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed. They should understand this restriction is considered lenient and further disruption after the topic ban expires will probably result in an indefinite topic ban. --NeilN talk to me 14:34, 30 May 2018 (UTC) | ||||||||||||
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Factchecker atyourservice[edit]
Note on Evidence: Because the behavior is mainly involving behavior on talk pages that are long and require context, I am linking achieved discussion per "You may also link to an archived version of long discussions". Diffs would lack context and be too many.
This posting made after this discussion was closed as "No consensus here, remit to AE."
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : [44]
Discussion concerning Factchecker atyourservice[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Factchecker_atyourservice[edit]Comment: OP refers to efforts to "insert POV" and "push POV" but does not actually claim I attempted to violate NPOV, DUE, etc. Is he just saying I argued a lot? Also, the "forum shopping" accusation under item #4 does not mention that it was a separate proposal amounting to a proposal for single quoted sentence from New York Times that was dramatically different than my previous proposal which was 30kb of in-depth coverage (see hatted section). I don't see how making a very different proposal to the same editors on the same talk page, in the face of a stalled RFC, amounted to "forum shopping". Factchecker_atyourservice 03:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC) @RegentsPark: Some clarifications. Apologize for the length but I don't see how to address so many accusations without going into detail.
Thank you. Factchecker_atyourservice 23:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC) @BullRangifer: I certainly wasn't making fun of your health condition—I had no way of knowing about it. Sorry to hear it. On another occasion, in the midst of a heated argument we were having on your talk page and at the dossier talk page, you suddenly made a comment at an article you'd never touched before mentioning some handguns you own. Not an edit to an article about guns, mind you, not a comment about article content. And it wasn't an ongoing conversation with somebody. You just randomly decided you wanted to mention you own guns, so you went to the article of one of the guns you owned, and started talking about it. And then back to arguing with me. Sooo just typical everyday totally unsolicited NOTFORUM gun enthusiast comments with nothing suspicious at all about the timing? Factchecker_atyourservice 07:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Jytdog complains about various diffs without really saying that anything is wrong with them. But the Corbyn issue, and the claims of one-sided partisan editing, I've got to address. Before I got involved at the Corbyn article, it had the following to say on the subjects of Cuba and Venezuela:
References
Where to begin? (1) Regarding the first bullet point, the quoted material was simply a rosy paean singing Castro's praises that didn't even mention substantial criticism in the same source it cited, which went on to clarify that Corbyn received rebuttals and criticisms for these remarks: He acknowledged "there were problems and there are problems of excesses by all regimes" but "we have to look at the thing in its totality" and Mr Castro had "seen off a lot of US presidents". But former Labour home secretary Jacqui Smith said the reason Mr Castro "'saw off' so many US presidents is because they're democratically elected". And Labour MP Mike Gapes, a former chairman of the Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee, highlighted a Human Rights Watch report that reported "much worse than just some 'problems and excesses' in Cuba". (2) Regarding the second bullet point, Corbyn's Venezuela-related views and activism were described as "Venezuelan solidarity activism" alongside a mention of forcibly removed indigenous peoples, generating the misleading impression that his "solidarity activism" was just some feel-good social justice cause. This treatment of both the Cuba and Venezuela issues was totally out of line with the way RS's had discussed them: Yes, one of those sources is a blog about UK Labour party politics. It says little different from the others, which are not blogs. I responded by adding a quote from Buzzfeed. Not a great source but it was, again, totally in line with what other sources said. In all subsequent discussions, nobody was willing to discuss or even admit the existence of numerous other sources, because it was so much more satisfying to harp about the Buzzfeed article even after I cited mainstream news and opinion articles. After much discussion, I decided to take the issue to Jimbo's talk page, asking him: The question is whether, in mentioning Corbyn's activism related to the governments of Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, and Nicolas Maduro, we should mention that his statements and associations in this area have drawn pretty substantial criticism from both inside and outside his own party, particularly after he made remarks about Castro after Castro's death. I pointed out that even as editors refused to allow any tiny mention of mainstream RS criticism of Corbyn's stances on Cuba/Venezuela, there were pointless puff pieces intended to portray Corbyn in a positive light, such as a fiasco over the price of a printer cartridge that was being claimed to be such a burningly important illustration of encyclopedic Corbyn virtues that WP editors were needed to go digging around in primary sources for OR analysis and figures further illustrating the tendency. Jimbo's response was predictable and squarely in line with my suggestions: mentioning the frugality was fine the printer cartridge issue was trivial and didn't merit much if any attention; meanwhile, in Jimbo's own words: Regarding his controversial defenses of Castro, Chavez, and Maduro, these seem virtually mandatory to include, as they are central to his political identity and to any understanding of his position in UK politics.. The founder of Wikipedia could not have been saying more bluntly that the criticism I was citing was indeed germane and encyclopedic. In the ensuing discussion I didn't attempt to use Jimbo as an "authority" to resolve a content dispute—he was merely the great-granddaddy of all third opinions. And now comes User:Jytdog, a Wikipedia administrator, to say I am "part of the problem of politics in WP" and who asserts—totally contrary to what the actual discussion shows—that I am not "striving to bring NPOV and strong sources to a discussion". Jytdog also totally misleadingly implies that I only make edits that seek to present right-wing figures positively, and he cites my edits to the article on Sarah Palin as an example, but it is obvious he has just looked at one or two diffs and assumed, without checking further, that I edited in biased support of Palin. As a matter of fact, most of my edits and talk page comments regarding Palin involved support for criticisms of Palin and using sources that criticized Palin, e.g. comments like this. Actually as I recall, I spent most of my time arguing with User:Collect over the meaning of BLP where I was trying to add this or that criticism of Palin and he was citing BLP as a reason to keep it out. I later spoke in his defense at an AE case and that earned me some enemies. Factchecker_atyourservice 20:05, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Notwithstanding Guy Macon later getting mad at me for speaking out on a largely unrelated issue (bizarre accusations by admin Andrevan), nothing has changed about his assessment of the content dispute at the Trump dossier page:
Anyhoo. I didn't like the suggestion by sysop Andrevan that I was a Russian troll. I went to summer school at West Point, folks. Almost went back for cadet school. And I didn't expect my additional comment was going to be regarded by Guy Macon as a continuation of the argument about Bull Rangifer, which was what he told me to "drop". Factchecker_atyourservice 01:28, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by power~enwiki[edit]To repeat my statement in the WP:AN thread: I see no reason why FCAYS should not be sanctioned, but several other editors in the area (on both sides of the aisle) should also be sanctioned at the same time. I am somewhat involved and don't have time right now to provide diffs at this point to request sanctions against specific editors, but can do so if requested. power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC) As a separate suggestion, I continue to believe that full-protection of Trump–Russia dossier may minimize disruption in the American Politics area. I concede it is unlikely that will happen, and the past 2 weeks have been quiet enough to not need it (though it's WP:CRYSTAL as to whether that will continue). power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by (slatersteven)[edit]Firstly it is hard to provide diffs of everything as there are about three or four places where the same issue is being hashed over by him. Also many of the threads are very long and convoluted, with random changes of emphasis (not to be fair by him, all the time). (in fact it may be even more [45], 2 months this has been going on for). I have no idea when they first raised this issue. [46], second (somewhat modified) but still the same matter raised. [47] third time (slightly re-worded and throwing in other issues as well). Note all three are running at once. Then we have PA's and commenting on other users [48], not "Here is what I disagree with", not a PA but hardly constructive [49] followed by this edit summery [50]. [51]. I Will leave it to others (for now) to provide diffs for any other offenses, this has taken enough time to dig this lot out. As I said, two moths and hundreds of posts.Slatersteven (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC) As to me being combative, possibly I have been. But when you have the same issue being raised multiple times, when you have insults thrown at you and when you have constant strawmaning by multiple users when ever you raise an objection (and are the told you are the problem for the derailing) it is hard to see past that behavior and try and comprise (which by the way I did, but I admit it could have been better worded, frustration is a terrible thing), as I think I said in one post "what are we actually discussing here"), it is hard to compromise when you have a user who says "facts is facts".Slatersteven (talk) 09:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC) There is massive frustration at the amount of time that has been wasted on this, and (frankly) it seems to me that a wider ban will just (in effect) reward (what looks like) deliberate obstreperousness and tendentious editing whose purpose was to bludgeon through a POV by wearing down the opposition with constant argument.Slatersteven (talk) 10:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Netoholic[edit]GoldenRing's idea has merit - a limited ban of Trump topics is the only thing on the table within the scope of this AE. A lot of the resistance to handling any single one of the users he mentions is the desire not to appear one-sided when there are multiple users with long-term BATTLEGROUND, NOTFORUM, or other behaviors. There seem to be three scenarios that really notch up drama: 1) boredom (few new updates turns to silliness on the talk page), 2) feelings of being cornered (as when there one person is outnumbered), and 3) pack mentality (taking advantage when you're in the group which has the numbers). I think people in the (1) and (3) camps should be the first excused from an article when trouble arises. Someone in the (2) position can't really help it, and we haven't really seen how they behave outside of the taunts or just general deluge of comments from the (3)'s or the antics of the (1)'s. Also, its better for article quality to keep a wide variety of viewpoints participating. In my read of the above, FCAYS seems to be in the (2) camp. In my recent report of SPECIFICO, I reviewed his edits over the last month and I found him solidly in (1) and (3). I'll leave it to more involved people to decide where they others fall. -- Netoholic @ 09:36, 22 May 2018 (UTC) To editor Casprings: - WP:CONSENSUS is "an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns" - its a process, not a state of being. And a key word there is "effort" which is part of your responsibility as well as his. You need, at all times, to try and make that effort. But when instead you instruct people to "just accept the reality that the community disagrees with your content choice and move on" you aren't incorporating their concerns, you're dismissing them out-of-hand and telling them to buzz off. That is pack mentality talk. That's chasing people out of your territory. You're not making the effort. --Netoholic @ 11:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by JFG[edit]I am moderately involved at Trump–Russia dossier, but was on wikibreak while most of the drama unfolded. This article has been a "work of love" by BullRangifer, who set out a few months ago to document every allegation and reaction in excruciating detail. His previous attempt at creating a standalone article List of Trump–Russia dossier allegations (created on 22 January 2018) was eventually merged back to Trump–Russia dossier on 2 March (see merge discussion). Since then, the dossier article has grown to encompass a lot of extraneous information, close to being an indictment of Trump, his campaign and cited people in wikivoice. My main contributions to the article consisted of trimming down the list of allegations into manageable paraphrase, in order to avoid copyvios.[52] When Factchecker came onto the scene, he tried to insert some mitigating information showing the other side of the coin (namely, that no collusion was found yet), and was repeatedly antagonized by BullRangifer and other editors. The "cage match" between BR and FC eventually led to the IBAN by NeilN. The drama and battleground reported here are mostly localized to this particular article, and I am sympathetic to GoldenRing's idea of imposing restricted TBANs on some of the most vocal editors. I would oppose wider restrictions, be they for FC, BR or other involved editors at this article. I would also remind BR of our WP:OWNERSHIP policy to prevent recurrence of similar issues. While I have managed to edit constructively with BR even when we disagreed, he does have a tendency to only "allow" content that fits his own view of the world. He also tends to dismiss fellow editors as "Trump apologists" unworthy of contributing to the encyclopedia (see his essay User:BullRangifer/Trump supporters, fake news, and unreliable sources), and that attitude taints his judgment when confronted with editing disputes. For example, FC has presented content backed by very reliable sources such as The New York Times, only to be rebuffed as if he had cited some fringe publications. Such behavior understandably angered him. — JFG talk 11:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
@Jytdog: Many thanks for your detailed research in FC's habits. Most of what you unearthed looks to me like exculpatory evidence. As you noticed, this editor is interested in hot political issues, and the diffs show him questioning edits in light of policy, especially trying to uphold NPOV, balance and good sourcing, even when that goes against the grain. See for example the thread you quoted, that he started at Trump–Russia dossier.[53] The only issue I see is him being a bit verbose, however I've seen much worse blathering from others. In recent threads, he also tends to turn combative when his fellow editors do not listen to what he says or misrepresent his arguments. This case should be dismissed with a warning to keep AGF and CIVIL even in the face of hostility, and to try and make his points more succinctly. — JFG talk 06:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC) @Aquillion: Your diffs sure look compelling, but have you looked at the statements FC was responding to? That would be another set of compelling diffs… Are we going to hand out blocks like cookies to any editor deemed "abrasive with anyone he disagrees with"? Such an option was suggested in earlier threads here,[54] and that would quickly decimate the field of editors who dare work on controversial topics. Way to turn the community into a ghost town! — JFG talk 13:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by SPECIFICO[edit]I urge the Admins to shut down any discussion of broadening this complaint into a festival of Whataboutism and deflection. If broad consideration of the entire topic area or dozens of editors' conduct is to be done, that should happen at an Arbcom AP3 case. AE is where we give straightforward documentation of DS violations. Casprings has attempted to do that and this thread will deteriorate into an ANI-like tangle if we don't stay on topic. Any participant who has specific concerns about other editors can by all means file separate complaints. Also, I think it's clear that the Admins can see that the same editors who tend to align with Factchecker in his content disputes now present theories of why this complaint should be recast into some entirely different and impossibly broad issue unsuited to this forum. SPECIFICO talk 13:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC) I was pinged here to this diff [55]] in which, under the heading "IBAN...", Factchecker makes a disparaging and false accusation to me that's either WP:ASPERSIONS without evidence or some other category of WP:NPA relating to me and an apparent sockpuppet or SPA. I hadn't planned to comment further in this complaint, but I'd be very disappointed if Admins did not sanction for that kind of behavior under their noses. SPECIFICO talk 23:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Regarding the IBAN: @NeilN:'s terms state: "This ban does not include article talk pages or threads on admin boards or admin talk pages where BullRangifer's edits or behavior are specifically being discussed -- So the talk page carve-out does not extend to pages where Factchecker insinuates BR-related comments into a discussion where BR's edits or behavior were not under discussion prior to FC's appearance. If I have this wrong, NeilN, please correct me. SPECIFICO talk 01:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Following up on PackMecEng's comment above, I think that Factfinder's response is indicative of his general approach to editing and site norms, so I am linking to the entire thread here:[56]. SPECIFICO talk 17:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Galobtter[edit]A quick comment, Trump–Russia_dossier has 9000 not 19000 words, (19000 would be ridiculous while 9000 is within reasonable limits) and there is a lot of coverage about this, so I wouldn't call it a blatant violation of NOTEVERYTHING; though I looked through it and it does need to be cut down. But all this is offtopic I think. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Mr Ernie[edit]I would encourage uninvolved editors and admins to simply read the Trump-Russia dossier article. Among many issues, the article just really isn't a piece of quality work, and is way too long. I wonder if admins or Arbcom could delete the article per TNT and request a group of experienced, uninvolved editors to research the issue and write a new article. This was requested numerous times for the Gamergate article, but was not followed. Allowing entrenched editors to stay on a topic does not lead to good articles. The AmPol topic currently has nearly the same conditions as Gamergate - two distinct sides, neither willing or able to meet in the middle (disclosure - I am on one of these sides). On the path we are on right now this topic area will continue to bleed off editors via sanctions until one of the "sides" has more survivors. There are a few editors who have proven to be able to successfully collaborate in this area, but they do not number very high. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Atsme[edit]I am dismayed to see that Casprings filed this case but not surprised - he opposed the material Factchecker proposed. He first tried to eliminate his opposition over at AN. My apologies if I've misunderstood, but I'm hard pressed to see it any other way based on what I've seen unfold at the Trump articles. We are dealing with a highly controversial topic; one that has created division, not just on WP, but around the world. We have editors editing Trump articles who have proudly displayed their political affiliations and animosity toward Trump on their user pages, all the while denying partisanship or bias when editing. Having been in the foxhole deflecting direct fire in the form of condescension and derogatory comments that totally misrepresent things I've said, I am not convinced that some editors are able to leave their biases at login, so yes, I sympathize with Factchecker, although he does tend to be far more verbose than I. To the admins who have to deal with this time sink, I extend my utmost respect because you damn well deserve it - but please don't expect me to name names of editors I believe are disruptive in this caseclarify 04:48, 23 May 2018 (UTC) because I've reached the point where it's best to just stop arguing and let them be wrong, especially when things are going nowhere fast. We are all forced to work under DS with very tight restrictions - we all know consensus is needed when material is challenged and we have also learned that any material attempting to bring proper WEIGHT & BALANCE to any of the anti-Trump coatracks will be challenged. Ironically, any editor who does their best to work within the DS restrictions in order to present a common sense proposal citing diffs to high quality sources as what Factchecker has done will be challenged, and either obliquely goaded or outright bludgeoned and denigrated by the opposition. It has become the norm and if admins would reflect back on all the editors who have been brought here because of DS vios, it's pretty obvious who is and isn't gaming the system. The opposition simply doesn't want opposition, and that is what this case is truly about - it has little to nothing to do with behavior and everything to do with content, and that's why admins are not seeing any diffs to support the complaints. Just read the comments in the following 2 sections and you'll see what Factchecker and other editors who are trying to get the article right are having to deal with on a regular basis:
Please keep in mind that Factchecker's iBan (my bold underline for emphasis)
Statement by MONGO[edit]The only thing (long winded perhaps) FCAYS is guilty of is trying to restore balance to some of the most lopsided coatrack articles that exist on the website. Anyone wanting to bring forth a third arbcom case about these political articles better be prepared to get topic banned as I expect arbcom is getting tired of this ongoing free for all and anyone lacking a near perfect track record is likely to be editing butterfly articles for the foreseeable future.--MONGO 15:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC) I doubt anyone here will read this but I hope for the sake of fairness we allow FCAYS to have a least a final opportunity to address the many many concerns raised here and offer some sort of olive branch and affidavit that they are willing to editing much more collegially.--MONGO 16:40, 25 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Objective3000[edit]@JFG: I agree that BR has put an enormous amount of effort into the article. But, I don’t think it makes sense to suggest this is BR vs. FCAYS. A dozen editors have added substantially to the talk page discussions with many others stopping by for commentary. I’m afraid I also must disagree with your description: @Netoholic: I understand your concern that all editor concerns are taken into account. But, there comes a time when an editor has obviously failed to gain consensus and just endlessly repeats arguments that didn’t work. At that point, one must drop the stick to avoid becoming a disruptive time-sink. @Mr Ernie: On the length of the article. If you look at the history of articles related to heavily covered, recent news, a pattern emerges. There is a phase where the article grows too long. It can then be trimmed of fluff that didn’t stand the test of time. TNT is drastic and unneeded. IMO. I fear as long as editors ignore RECENTISM and NOTNEWS, we are stuck with this phase. O3000 (talk) 15:37, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken[edit]I am almost completely uninvolved with Talk:Trump-Russia dossier and other articles about Trump, so I'd like to focus on Factchecker's behavior in the WP:AN discussion which it generated [57], especially the sub-section proposing sanctions, which I started. [58]. The proposal section was closed by Guy with the recommendation for the issue to move here. Since diffs are preferred, I will do my best to provide them, in chronological order.
Statement by Lionelt[edit]Two issues have been submitted for consideration: 1. IBAN violation with BullRangifer I applaud NeilN's efforts to allow editors to edit while striving for creative solutions to maintain a productive editing environment. However, as pointed out by others, there may have been confusion surrounding the specific provisions of the IBAN due to this creative wording. We should not block an editor under these circumstances. My recommendations: (1) I support the suggestions calling for a standard two-way IBAN be implemented and (2) Factchecker be issued a final warning with respect to prohibited interactions with BullRangifer. 2. BATTLEGROUND at Trump-Russia Dossier It has also been pointed out that there are several editors in addition to Factchecker whose conduct at Trump Dossier can only be described as unbecoming. With all due respect to our admin corps, it is the failure of admins to enforce DS in the first place that has led to the disruption at the article. DS will only work if admins enforce the restrictions outlined in the talkpage notice. If editors are immediately blocked for personal attacks and civility violations then the conduct of the remaining editors will improve. I recommend that (1) all active editors be issued a final warning and (2) admins be instructed to keep vigilant and be aggressive in handing out civility blocks. I have made a total of two edits to Trump-Russia: (1) tagged for Wikiproject (2) !vote. – Lionel(talk) 03:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by BullRangifer[edit]
The "glass house" means he's described a whole series of excuses he uses to justify his personal attacks and aggression. Many of them rely on blaming his targets/victims (I'm not the only one) for supposedly provoking him. The glass in that house is totally fractured. If FCAYS can't control himself, and is so easily triggered by anything less than complete agreement, he has a problem. The behavior of others is not an excuse for such behavior. It might be an explanation, but it's not an excuse. To excuse it is to justify it. The "bad faith foundation", at least in regards to his relationship to me, is a completely mistaken belief that I wrote an essay about him. That's not true. It was started nearly a month before he came on the scene at the Trump-Russia dossier article talk page, and immediately treated me in a rather nasty way.
The only thing true about FCAYS's allegation is that I did quote a small part of the essay in a thread he started at Jimbo's talk page. There I described how the thread was a spillover from the contentious environment of the Trump-Russia dossier article, where a number of pro-Trump editors fought to keep anything negative about Trump out of the article, and Factchecker seemed to share many of their POV. I was speaking about a group of editors who used unreliable sources (the main theme of my essay), and never named Factchecker specifically, as I had never seen him use bad sources. Several of the other editors had done so. Although the essay was inspired by two other editors, some of it applied to these editors as well. From then on, Factchecker insisted I had written the essay about him specifically and personally, and he believed I was accusing him of using unreliable sources. He personalized the essay as if it, and every detail in it, was all about him. That's BS. That essay was inspired by contacts with AmYisroelChai, and then PZP-003, and I started it exactly ONE MONTH BEFORE April 13, when Factchecker posted his thread on Jimbo's talk page. The following history, with diffs, should completely debunk his false accusations and show his glass house is built on a "bad faith foundation" which has led him to stray far from facts quite often. His false belief about the essay caused him to interpret all my actions using "bad faith eyeglasses" which colored his perceptions. He has misinterpreted much of what I have said and done, and it got so bad he was iBanned and blocked.
The iBan reads:
Atsme has commented on it:
I believe the underlining leaves the wrong impression, and still ignores "Gratuitous insults, personal attacks, and casting aspersions are still prohibited on any page." Only the second part (about "specifically") should be emphasized, not the first. That's what NeilN did. If my "edits or behavior are [not] specifically being discussed", then such comments are off-limits "on any page" at Wikipedia. All "post-1932 politics...broadly construed", are covered by the iBan, unless my "edits or behavior are specifically being discussed" on "article talk pages or threads on admin boards or admin talk pages". "Specifically" is the key word emphasized by NeilN, for good reason. It would be gaming the system for FCAYS, or any of his friends, to mention me, and then FCAYS to use that as an excuse to start "mentioning, pinging, or otherwise discussing BullRangifer or their edits, either specifically or obliquely". OTOH, if a thread on such a page was started "specifically" about me (if I was the subject of this AE proceeding), not tangentially or "obliquely", it would be a different matter, and FCAYS should still stay away if at all possible. He should NEVER use it as an excuse to resume the behavior which got him in trouble. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
This was my immediate reaction:
Here I'm facing some really dark life and death shit in my life, and this is what happens here. SMH. I'm pretty sure he didn't intend to make fun of a possibly dying man. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Like I said, I'm sure you had no intention of making fun of my health. No problem. The timing just happened to be bad. I happen to have a thing called a "watchlist". I actually use it on occasion. When something pops up, like the vandalism I fixed on the ileocecal valve article, well, that just happened to be an article I had used during my searching for information in relation to my new, and still uncertain, diagnosis. The same for the gun article (I don't own any handguns anymore, only one Ruger 10/22 rifle for plinking.) That sarcastic/humorous comment was written because that article popped up on my watchlist. Neither situation had anything to do with you or other things I was editing or discussing. If one of the articles for some handgun I had previously owned, for example a Colt Python .357 Magnum, or Ruger Blackhawk 9×19mm Parabellum/.357 Magnum Convertible, popped up on my watchlist and I suddenly edited it, would you really have gotten worried? I owned those guns about 47 years ago! I'm not really a "gun enthusiast" and am very much for stricter gun control measures. I have done quite a bit of hunting in Greenland when I lived there. We all did. Reindeer/caribou is delicious. Not everything I do here has to do with you. You're seeing phantoms. I'm quite harmless. I hate to disappoint you, but I think about you far less than you may realize. Many of the things you wrote above about me are in the same "phantoms" category. Your 100% false belief (that I wrote that essay about you, debunked quite thoroughly above) has colored your perceptions about everything else I have done here, and thus you interpret it all wrongly, and make some things about you that have nothing to do with you. That's what happens when we fail to AGF. We then place our own false interpretations on things. I didn't write the essay about you nor accuse you of using bad sources. The two editors who inspired me to write the essay (written before you came on the scene) use bad sources, and some of your current fellow travelers also do that. You just got a little splatter on you because of your close proximity to them. When I complain generally about editors who use bad sources, I'm not referring to you specifically. I'm not even referring to you at all. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:00, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
An inaccuracy in my hatted comment above has been pointed out. I wrote:
It has been brought to my attention that we had actually met a year previously. At that time he edited using the handle of "Centrify". My "AFAICT" showed my uncertainty and an obvious memory lapse(?). He commented until April 8, 2017, and then disappeared for a year, returning ("first arrived on the scene") on April 4, 2018, as "Factchecker atyourservice". So my timing was not completely accurate. In reality it was his "return", not "first arrived". It was still the same person behind the two handles. It would have been more accurate to write "that after "Centrify" was absent for a year, he returned as "Factchecker atyourservice" on April 4, 2018..." Otherwise, the important point is that all the diffs above documenting the timing of the creation of the essay, and the two editors who inspired me to write it, are still solid proof that the creation of the essay had nothing to do with FCAYS. He wasn't even around at the time I was writing it. Most had already been written by the time he returned. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 19:41, 27 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by My very best wishes[edit]I agree with Regentspark below. And this not really about two "ideological camps", but about what people actually do for the project. For example, Factchecker atyourservice produces a lot of unhelpful and highly divisive comments on article talk pages. On the other hand, contributors like BullRangifer produce high quality and well sourced main space content. A topic ban for Factchecker atyourservice would be completely appropriate, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 13:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Jbhunley[edit]"defense for FCAYS in the ANI thread added by BMK ([175]) does mean that [she has] taken ownership of some of FCAYS's behavior"has no basis in policy, common sense or, dare I say, justice. Politically I disagree with just about everything she has to say on Trump. Nor do I agree with her analysis of the FCAS situation but to say that standing up for an editor or, similarly, contesting a complaint/evidence/assertion brought by one editor against the other somehow means one now owns that editor's behavior is far outside the norms of Wikipedia. Defending an editor is not reinstating a reverted edit and the suggestion it is would be chilling to dispute resolution. For example, I would never have spoken for Atsme here if it would somehow imply I thereby own her behavior or views. Yet by not speaking up she might face a TBAN based more on another editor's behavior than her own, which would just be wrong. (no implication her behavior justifies a TBAN) Jbh Talk 15:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by PackMecEng[edit]Just a comment here since Awilley has not made mention of it here for some reason, FCAYS has been blocked for 1 week for purportedly violating his IBan and "personal attacks" here. PackMecEng (talk) 16:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Awilley[edit]Just a note that I blocked Factchecker to put a quick stop to what I saw as an ongoing problem of battleground behavior, casting "aspersions", and iban violations. I hope the block doesn't interfere too much with the process here. I'm happy to unblock if Factchecker shows some awareness of what the problem is and makes a commitment to fix it. ~Awilley (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Jytdog[edit]I generally steer clear of politics and especially matters Trumpian. This AE filing prompted me to review FCAYS work here.
This is all very politically "hot" stuff. They seem to have come here specifically to address what they perceive as left-wing bias, from what i have seen. There may be diffs of them tamping down POV editing from the right, but I haven't seen that.... Just wanted to present this context. Given their chosen subject matter and approach, that they are in some hot water is unsurprising. Jytdog (talk) 04:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion[edit]Since more diffs were requested (and apologies if some of these were mentioned elsewhere, but I couldn't find these exact diffs in a quick search of the page): [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88] [89] [90] [91] Note that these are not isolated cases, and that (including the last few) it goes across several pages; FactChecker is constantly, repeatedly abrasive with anyone he disagrees with if he perceives their politics as being on the left, rapidly taking offense and escalating tempers. He is also sometimes fairly outspoken about what he sees as left-wing bias on Wikipedia and among its admins, which he clearly sees himself as fighting against. Note his exit message when he left three years ago; nothing, to me, indicates that his views of Wikipedia have changed, merely that he feels strongly enough about this topic area to use it as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. --Aquillion (talk) 12:14, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Mr. Daniel Plainview[edit]
Statement by Guy Macon[edit]Please consider the following series of edits: [93], [94], [95], [96], [97], [98], [99], [100], [101], [102], [103] (I also commented on a complaint about his username, and was generally supportive of FCAYS in that thread.) ` I believe that the above sequence of edits is enough to demonstrate that FCAYS lacks the ability to walk away from a conflict and let others deal with it. Because of this, my opinion is that he should be forced to cease his current pattern of behavior through a block and/or topic ban, which should be lifted only when and if he makes a compelling case that he understands what he did wrong and makes a commitment to change his behavior. I have no opinion on the behavior of anyone else involved in this, because I have not examined the edit history for myself. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MelanieN[edit](Disclosure: I am WP:INVOLVED at many of the articles under discussion here.) I’d just like to say that I am dismayed at the suggestion made here that Atsme might be sanctioned or tbanned - apparently just for defending FCAYS! This thread contains a mass of evidence against FCAYS, not just for violating the IBAN but for being disruptive and uncivil, and absolutely none against Atsme. The idea that we should impose some kind of guilt by association ("taking ownership of their behavior"?) merely for commenting on the behavior of others is really disturbing. --MelanieN (talk) 15:02, 26 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by Factchecker atyourservice[edit]@Guy Macon: "walk away and let others handle it" was actually exactly what I tried to do in April. But letting others handle something presupposes an ability to communicate with others, which is not really possible when POV-pushy editors simply remove talk page sections they don't like as well as removing, without even a pretense at discussion, every single maintenance tag needed to signal article problems to other editors. Thus I got sucked in to doing the research and writing myself—then defending it against an endless array of stupidly dishonest claims. Factchecker_atyourservice 16:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Factchecker atyourservice[edit]
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