Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive75
Accipio Mitis Frux
[edit]| No action necessary after self-revert. |
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Request concerning Accipio Mitis Frux[edit]
Discussion concerning Accipio Mitis Frux[edit]Statement by Accipio Mitis Frux[edit]My position is very basic. I am not an individual who has been overly invested in pages regarding the Israeli-Arab conflict, and use Wikipedia as a source to receive information on this topic, not bestow it. However, I make edits when I think it is appropriate and I saw a need here. I hate to get personal, but I've had some interaction with Nableezy on a prior page some months ago and it was by far the worst experience in my nearly five years on Wikipedia. There was no room for a real conversation, just insults to my intelligence straight from the get-go followed up by an immediate attempt to restrict my access. Once again, we have the same pattern of behavior. I have a problem with this approach. After the edit that he saw as problematic, had he posted to my page that he would be changing it back in 24 hours with a respectful explanation, it would not have been an issue. Instead, I got a message to "self-revert or else." I am not going to be strong-armed I can't believe that this is appropriate behavior for Wikipedia. In any case, I disagree with the insistance that there is consensus for this change. However, I do not have vast quantities of time to devote to this topic and am just going to let the chips fall where they may. Meaning, I am voluntarily taking a break from editing the page in question and am bowing out of the debate. However, with what little time I do have I'd like to return the favor and lodge a complaint against Nableezy for hostile behavior. I would appreciate instructions on the best way to do this as I do not have any experience in this area. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 08:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Okay, fine, I self-reverted. Cancel what I said about bowing out of the debate. Accipio Mitis Frux (talk) 10:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Accipio Mitis Frux[edit]And s/he has just reverted the edit for the third time today.[9] RolandR (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Accipio Mitis Frux[edit]
Also, I'll add that I do not find Nableezy's initial comment on their talk page to be helpful. Linking to a voluminous discussion does not really help anything, nor does threatening lengthy topic bans for a first violation. It is much preferable to link to LHvU's closure of that discussion, the admin comments at the AE request, and to include a better explanation why the revert was inappropriate. T. Canens (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Athenean
[edit]| No action taken against the respondent or the filer. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:45, 1 December 2010 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Athenean[edit]
[12][13][14][15][16](partial)[17] [18] [19][20][21][22] [23] [24][25] These are the vast majority of my edits that are related to Albanian-Greek issues in November(not including vandal reverts etc.). In Krokodeilos Kladas he hadn't made even one edit, until I made an edit, which he reverted.
Warning by Timotheus Canens (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA): [26]
regarding their source, which isn't John Shea
Discussion concerning Athenean[edit]Statement by Athenean[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning Athenean[edit]Statement by Athenean[edit]I find this report frivolous and filed in bad faith, for the reasons below:
To sum up, I only reverted Zjarri when I felt it was absolutely necessary and well-grounded in wiki policy. There is absolutely no gratuitous, spiteful reverting, or inappropariate taking advantage of his interaction ban on my part, nor is there going to be.
I can certainly live with having to discuss reverts on the talkpage more often, however, I prefer that it not be imposed as a "restriction" but rather on an honor system basis. As an indicator, I have generally abided by a voluntary 1R rule since September, even though the 1R restriction I was under expired two months ago. If it to be imposed as a restriction, I would ask that some sort of editing restriction against using shoddy sourcing by ZjarriRrethues be put into effect as well, as after all my admitted brusqueness was largely due to frustration at persistent tendentious editing by ZjarriRrethues, which has been going on for months now. By the way, by "frivolous" I meant non-actionable, as in the claims of this report do not add up, the (n+1)th such AE report by ZjarriRrethues. Athenean (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I see three new diffs [83] [84] [85], which I have now addressed. I stand by my actions and believe I was acting in the best interest of the encyclopedia.
Incidentally, this brings up my total to 14 reverts of Zjarri in November, still not a significant increase compared to before his interaction ban, and nowhere near the vast majority of his edits on Greek-Albanian topics in November. The pattern here is the same as his previous report: A largely non-actionable report is filed, and when it looks like it is about to be dismissed, he digs deeper and deeper, playing the victim even more and making yet more false statements [86] (I am not calling for him to be sanctioned for his articlespace edits), [87] (I didn't revert him 15 times in November, and it's still not a "significant percentage" of his edits to Greek-Albanian topics), [88] (Thimi Mitko lived in Greece), [89] (he is not editing less frequently), [90] (as the article makes clear the two towns next to Himarë, Dhërmi and Palasë, speak a semi-northern dialect, which is sourced). It is plainly obvious he really wants to see me sanctioned at any cost, and simply won't let go no matter what. This is exactly the kind of behavior that resulted in his interaction ban in the first place. Athenean (talk) 17:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Athenean[edit]
Awaiting Athenean's response to the diffs added in these edits. T. Canens (talk) 16:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
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The Four Deuces
[edit]| The Four Deuces is warned, outside of Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions, for an inappropriate edit summary. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC) |
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Request concerning The Four Deuces[edit]
If TFD had offered an apology as suggested by User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling then it might have been the end of the matter, but evidently he does not understand the offensiveness of his comment. Instead he offers an unapologetic "I do not refer to editors, only to edits." Edits do not happen in a vacuum, editors make edits, and he states himself "Some edits present a POV, which this one obviously does", in other words I hold a pro-fascist viewpoint. Not only does this remain deeply offensive but this is disruptive to any good faith attempt to edit an already difficult article in a neutral fashion, as I have attempted to do. As TFD appears to be unapologetic it is highly likey he will continue to characterise anyone he disagrees with as harbouring pro-fascist sympathies. This is unacceptable. --Martin (talk) 04:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC) TFD explanation is misleading (I note he still hasn't offered an apology). Let's examine the edits I actually made which TFD claims were "pro-fascist" in detail:
TFD claim "The rest of what I reversed represents "the fascist view of itself" which was inserted into the article as factual rather than as an opinion" is clearly at odds with the actual edits. All my edits were sourced to existing RS, unless he is claiming that Eatwell, Griffin and Sternhell hold a fascist view point, he is clearly referring to me as holding "the fascist view". Now TFD may believe I had misinterpreted the sources and he could have discussed this on talk in a collegiate manner, but to blindly revert everything and characterise my edits as "pro-fascist" is unacceptable. It was this kind of behaviour of characterising other editors as holding pro-fascist viewpoints and Nazi sympathies that lead to the original WP:DIGWUREN case. --Martin (talk) 19:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC) @Will Beback: Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Editors_warned makes no limitation with regard to applicable topic area and is adjunct to the EE wide discretionary sanction. --Martin (talk) 04:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC) @Mkativerata: Given the significant involvement of fascists in Eastern Europe during WW2 and that this region, including the Soviet Union, generally describe the Nazis as "German–Fascist Aggressors" (thus making no distinction between Nazis and fascists), there is no less a link than there is between Communist terrorism and Eastern Europe. But I am not going to wiki-lawyer over AE's jurisdiction. Fascism is an ideology I find abhorrent. TFD's claim that my edits were pro-fascist is grossly uncivil and deeply offensive. TFD's previously characterised myself and others as "far right", which is also offensive. Someone needs to make TFD understand that his edit comments are unacceptable and that he should apologise, as the majority who have commented here have concurred. Whether it was posted here or at ANI, nothing precludes an admin from taking regular action as opposed to AE enforcement action. But if the admins think it is preferrable that I take this to ArbCom for what may potentially result in summary ban, then so be it. --Martin (talk) 05:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning The Four Deuces[edit]Statement by The Four Deuces[edit]I do not refer to editors, only to edits. Some edits present a POV, which this one obviously does. Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has said I must be referring to him. I will post a note on the article talk page so that other editors familiar with the article may comment. TFD (talk) 03:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Part of what I reversed began, "Fascism emerged first in France in the 1880s...." and is sourced to Renton.[97] But what Renton actually wrote was "[Zeev Sternhell] has argued that fascism emerged first in France in the 1880s and 1890s".[98] He then writes that Sternhell and others "are then free to emphasize what they perceive to be the essentially non-destructive nature of fascism. The historians suggest that it is time to rescue fascist Italy from stigma.... [T]hey fail to generate a non-fascist understanding of fascism. Their readers are led to the conclusion that the fascist view of itself is the most important factor in the definition of the ideology." The rest of what I reversed represents "the fascist view of itself" which was inserted into the article as factual rather than as an opinion. TFD (talk) 11:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Question to Martintg and Sander Saeda: Do you not see any difference between, "Fascism emerged first in France in the 1880s" and ""[Zeev Sternhell] has argued that fascism emerged first in France in the 1880s"? TFD (talk) 02:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning The Four Deuces[edit]TFD is a frequent thorn in my side, including filing procedural actions against me. Indeed, that's why I noticed this. However, I do try to be fair. Given that I have not read the policy involved that may require a block, would it be acceptable to allow an admin to remove the history comment and extract a promise that TFD will not do something like this again? Everyone's always trying to block others. TFD got me banned for a few days. Don't we have better things to do? In my opinion, one history comment like the present one does not look to me, not having read the policy, to be a reason to block someone. Would Martin accept an apology and the administrative removal of the history comment in exchange for dropping the block request? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Martintg failed the mention that the article in question is Fascism. I agree with TFD that the edit reverted presented a positive point-of-view on the topic of the article. I do not know if that alone would have been reason enough to revert them. However, Martintg himself seems to be saying that Wikipedia should favor an anti-fascist POV, lest it be accused of "harbouring Nazi sympathies". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:58, 30 November 2010 (UTC) The edit summary may not have used the best form of words, but in the context of the article it is no major issue. The editor raising this against a three year old Arbcom ruling seems a little over sensitive. I've seen far worse handled on the talk page without running to enforcement. Further given this block history its obvious that the filing editor is no stranger to controversy; The lady doth protest too much, methinks. --Snowded TALK 04:04, 30 November 2010 (UTC) 'Fascism is commonly associated with Nazism, and accusing me of being "pro-fascist" is tantamount to accusing me of harbouring Nazi sympathies.' Really? Can I suggest that anyone involving themselves in topics of this kind should really be aware of the distinctive features of Fascism and Naziism, and not automatically assume they are one and the same? Even though I often agree with TFD, I still find him a little awkward sometimes, but then I'm sure he feels the same about me. I'm sure his political opponents have stronger views, but we are discussing politics here, not Pokomon characters, so maybe a little less feigned 'sensitivity' might be in order? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC) I think in cases like these, if someone takes offence (and it was certainly a careless use of words, regardless of the article topic), then an apology for having caused inadvertent offence is entirely in order, and no one loses face. I keep seeing cases on this page where apologising - even when it can be understood that nothing bad was intended - seems to be a phenomenal strain for people. The thing is, it can serve really well to improve the standing of the editor and the overall editing atmosphere.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
The thing is, TFD has a habit of doing this sort of thing repeatedly. He regularly ascribes views to those that disagree with him that they do not possess. He more or less accuses them of having extremist or fringe or worse (as in this case) views, which is completely unsupported by, well, anything. Here is a recent example [99]. I asked him to redact it and explained that no, I do not have extremist political views (I resent the fact that I even have to say this) but he did not redact the edits. There are also other instances, some older, like this one [100] where he's making up some stuff about "far-right Russian bias" (he did redact that one after being told to do so). There's also other examples but honestly, I don't have time atm to go digging for more diffs. These should be enough to establish evidence of a pattern. It also shows that TFD's claim that I do not refer to editors, only to edits is generally false. And seriously, calling edits based on the work of a Marxist historian, Dave Renton, "pro-fascist" just takes the cake. Also, regardless of what the distinctions between Nazis or Fascism are, and what the subject of the article is, calling another editor's edits "pro-fascist" is simply insulting. No way to weasel out of that one. Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
On its face, the edit summary states that the edits were "pro-fascist." Using such strong language in an edit summary is extraordinarily ill-advised, to say the least. TFD was well aware of the likelihood that such an edit summary woul;d be brought here - he is a regular at making complaints about others on this and other noticeboards. Collect (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC) I would just like point out that we do have to put up with a hell of a lot of crap just maintaining the articles on Fascism, Nazism and other related subjects. There is constant ill-informed editing and POV pushing, some of it egregious but some of it quite subtle. Occasionally this actually is by those seeking to rehabilitate Fascism or Nazism but more commonly by those with other objectives (e.g. seeking to taint other ideologies by asserted association). It is not surprising that those working hard to prevent these articles sliding into a complete mess of POV sometimes make mistakes, possibly out of sheer exhaustion, or let their annoyance show. I guess what I am saying is that TFD shouldn't have said what he said, but he is one of the good guys here and there is no way he deserves to be blocked over this. He should apologise and that should be an end to it. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Even under a broad interpretation, is Fascism related to Eastern Europe any more than to other parts of Europe? I don't think so. Will Beback talk 01:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC) @Marting: (8) refers to "the imposition of summary bans when the matter is reported to the Committee", not discretionary sanctions through arbitration enforcement. Discretionary sanctions, empowere by (12), are limited to the "area of conflict". I'm struggling to see AE's jurisdiction here. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning The Four Deuces[edit]
Time to bring this to an end. In my view this AE request falls outside the scope of discretionary sanctions in Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Discretionary_sanctions (note: this is not a binding view. Other admins in other cases may disagree.). That of course does not stop general action being taken to prevent disruption of the project (as if this was an ANI report). In that respect, TFD is formally warned that such edit summaries are unacceptable.[102] Even if the "edit vs editor" distinction is made in good faith, it is a distinction that will be lost on many other editors who will understandably be offended by the edit summary. In light of the lack of evidence that this is a significant ongoing problem as opposed to one or two isolated edit summaries, a block would be inappropriate. But any further such edit summaries may attract sanctions, the nature of the sanctions depending on whether the action falls within the area of conflict. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC) The discretionary sanctions authorization states that:
There is no explicit requirement that the failure to "adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process" needs to be related to the area of conflict; a literal reading suggests that the fact that this editor works in the area of conflict is sufficient for the discretionary sanctions to apply. I seem to remember at least one arb interpreting the provisions this way, though I couldn't provide a diff at the moment. I have no opinion so far on whether the literal reading is appropriate, either. T. Canens (talk) 18:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
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Lvivske
[edit]| No action. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:27, 2 December 2010 (UTC) |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Lvivske[edit]
Discussion concerning Lvivske[edit]Statement by Lvivske[edit]
Comments by others about the request concerning Lvivske[edit]
Result concerning Lvivske[edit]
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Captain Occam
[edit]| Captain Occam and Ferahgo are indefinitely banned from the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Wikipedia, including user talk pages. Several editors advised. |
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Request concerning Captain Occam[edit]
This user is discussing matters concerned with
Whether or not his editing history prior to his topic ban is being discussed, he should not intervene or attempt to exercise influence in any way whatsoever. This is a violation of his topic ban. Recent harassment-only accounts There is also a concern that two recently created accounts are acting as proxies for Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, during their topic bans. The evidence of meatpuppetry so far is purely circumstantial. Like Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, both users are targeting WeijiBaikeBianji (talk · contribs). Both are following his edits and and lobbying for editing restrictions. For recently arrived wikipedians, this does not seem quite normal. [123]
<moving commment> VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:24, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Captain Occam[edit]Statement by Captain Occam[edit]This report seems completely frivolous. Mathsci and I were both topic banned from these articles by the same arbitration case, and he and I have both been engaging in the exact same type of discussions about other users’ conduct on these articles. Recent examples of this from Mathsci are [146], [147] and [148]. More importantly, there was recently a request for clarification about this case in which the arbitrators specifically stated that topic bans from this case do not apply to dispute resolution about user conduct issues. In that thread, Mathsci actually defended the right of topic banned editors to engage in these discussions! Quoting what Mathsci said there: “I have twice communicated in private when irregularities have occurred connected with WP:ARBR&I. On both occasions the irregularities were not of my making, but I had what I perceived to be useful input to offer in discussions. Wikipedia processes are not covered by my voluntary but binding topic ban.” Now, do the diffs that Mathsci provided of me purportedly violating my topic ban show anything other than what Mathsci has done himself, has defended his right to do, and what the arbitrators have given both of us permission for? The first is me pointing out to Maunus that he had misquoted me; in response Maunus apologized and struck out the part of his comment which was a misquote. The second and third were a follow-up to a discussion between myself and Coren, in which Coren suggested starting an RFC about WeijiBaikeBianji, and also that I bring this suggestion up with the other editors who have been involved in disputes with him. These diffs are from the discussions that I initiated with these editors at an arbitrator’s suggestion. This certainly does not have any resemblance to the behavior for which I was topic banned, which according to my finding of fact was edit warring and false claims of consensus. Mathsci, on the other hand, has been described by ArbCom as engaging in behavior that is “unduly aggressive and combative”, and seems to be displaying the same attitude here and in the earlier diffs of his behavior provided above. There are three important questions that need to be asked here:
Echoing VsevolodKrolikov’s comments below, when one considers the number of editors who have taken issue with WeijiBaikeBianji’s recent behavior, it should not be such a surprise that this includes a pair of relatively new users. From the links and diffs provided in the RFC/U which was recently started about WeijiBaikeBianji, I can identify at least four other users who feel similarly about WeijiBaikeBianji’s editing. In addition to VsevolodKrolikov himself, there is also Andy Dingley, Victor Chmara and TrevelyanL85A2. All four of these users have been registered for over three years. I’m reminded again of this principle from the recent Climate Change arbitration case: “An editor who brings forward the same or similar view as a blocked or banned user should not automatically be assumed to be a sockpuppet or meatpuppet in the absence of other evidence.” On these articles, Mathsci and a few other users who share his viewpoint seem to consistently ignore this principle. When a pair of new users are among six users disagreeing with someone whom I’ve also disagreed with in the past, should sockpuppetry or meatuppetry be considered so likely that admins are privately canvassed to run checkuser, and after checkuser fails to find evidence of sockpuppetry, the accusation is brought to AE? --Captain Occam (talk) 09:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Captain Occam[edit]Comment by VsevolodKrolikov[edit]I have been part of these discussions through being caught up in WeijiBaikeBianji's editing campaign against template:human intelligence. I agree that there is something slightly suspicious about the sudden appearance of the two new users and their familiarity with wikipedia. That said, WeijiBaikeBianji is being rather disruptive and it's not only these two who have problems with WBB's continual reverts and slow edit warring, so I don't know how much can be read into their behaviour there. (But certainly Woodsrock has been uncivil.) VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by WeijiBaikeBianji[edit]Certainly something very odd is going on here. I have no trouble discussing issues calmly with VsevolodKrolikov, and I expect that discussion to result in further improvements in several articles we both are watching. As Mathsci, the moving editor, notes, some of the edits by the two presumptive meat-puppets don't do anything at all to improve the quality of the encyclopedia. I invite multiple editors to take a look at this, especially editors who are experienced with what are at bottom conduct disputes, and I am happy to learn from any conscientious editor how best to respond to this situation. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 13:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Tijfo098[edit]This request appears to be a sort of SPI investigation. What is alleged here is essentially that two accounts who recently opened a RfC/U on WeijiBaikeBianji are meat-puppets of a topic banned user. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Maunus[edit]I don't see how this can be enough evidence to sanction Occam. I am also suspicious about those two editors, but I could not possibly support any sanctions on Occam untill there is actual positive evidence that he has any part in their sudden arrival. It is not a crime to arrive at wikipedia with prior knowledge of its workings and it is also not a crime to agree with topic banned editors. Nothing we can really do here except keep the argument based on sources and policies going.·Maunus·ƛ· 18:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Comment by SightWatcher[edit]I originally joined Wikipedia wanting to edit film related stuff. I had been browsing race and intelligence-related articles out of curiosity and an interest in learning more, and first got involved when trying to remove something that looked like obvious original research to me. This first R&I edit of mine was reverted by WeijiBaikeBianji, restoring the original research (someone else later removed it). I never would have guessed that making a single edit would suck me in like this, but I thought the articles could benefit if I stuck around. It only took me a few days to notice that a few other editors also had a problem with WeijiBaikeBianji's behavior. Due to how prolific WeijiBaikeBianji's editing was, it was hard for them to deal with everything he was doing. If anyone else has experienced something similar here, they might understand how easy it is to get pulled into disputes like this. As part of trying to rapidly familiarize myself with this topic, I've read through much of the arbitration process and findings. I find it pretty weird that one of the topic banned editors has made this thread. Mathsci, who WeijiBaikeBianji defended as "a thorough and conscientious editor" [149] despite this user's apparent penchant for edit warring and personal attacks pointed out by arbcom in his finding of fact. [150] Mathsci posted this thread less than three hours after I started the RFC/U about WeijiBaikeBianji. After this thread was posted, WeijiBaikeBianji immediately linked to it from the RFC/U, claiming that it "shows that this request for comment very likely is a continuation of an edit war by a topic-banned editor that began before I became a wikipedian." [151] Mathsci's intimate familiarity with my editing history in an area he's banned from is also disconcerting to me. I don't think I need to respond in detail to all of Mathsci's accusations- seems there's no point. All you have to do is click on the diffs that have been presented in this thread to see that reality doesn't support his claims. For example, read the thread in Coren's talk to see that the suggestion to start the RFC/U originally came from Coren, not from Occam. Mathsci certainly knows this, because he participated in the discussion where Coren suggested it. Interestingly, this deliberate misrepresentation seems similar to some stuff I've read about through arbitration that Mathsci was doing- Ludwigs2 provided a good example here [152] of how he tends to do this (check out the "Fake Mathsci-style criticism of itsmeJudith for example purposes only). This thread smacks of being a very similar sort of thing... But anyway, whether other editors or myself have done anything wrong here does not really seem to be the point of this thread. The point is that as long as this thread exists, it can be used to undermine the legitimacy of my RFC/U about WeijiBaikeBianji. In his comment on the RRFC/U that I quoted, WeijiBaikeBianji is milking this thread for all it's worth. So what I see is a very suspicious link between this, the timing of this thread in response to my RFC/U, WeijiBaikeBianji’s eagerness to defend Mathsci, and Mathsci's intimate familiarity with my disputes with WeijiBaikeBianji on these articles. What this looks like to me is WeijiBaikeBianji collaborating with a topic-banned editor to try to prevent his questionable editing behavior from being examined. I hope that admins can recognize this and close this pointless thread as soon as possible.-SightWatcher (talk) 22:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
There is something slightly wrong here. Mathsci (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Comments by uninvolved Ludwigs2[edit]I only have two comments with respect to this issue:
I am on a short work-related break, and probably will not participate in this further unless my name is mentioned in some way that I feel calls for a response. --Ludwigs2 17:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Response to EdJohnston[edit]I should remind everyone that there has already been a request for clarification about the R&I case, in which arbitrators expressed the view that topic bans from this case do not apply to dispute resolution about editor conduct. However, I think it’s still reasonable for there to be some concern about how closely Mathsci is following all of the disputes over these articles, his and WeijiBaikeBianji’s seeming cooperation to defend one another, and whether he has been engaging in the same battleground attitude which was one of the things he was sanctioned for in the case. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC) Statement by EdJohnston[edit]I think that admins now have enough information to make an effective response to the string of new issues that have arisen here concerning Race and Intelligence. From reading enforcement requests of the last two months I single out these comments as being especially informative. Both are from Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive71#WeijiBaikeBianji: Quoted comment by Maunus[edit]
Quoted comment by Shell Kinney[edit]
Comment on proposed sanction[edit]Before this thread is closed, I think administrators should look at these two comments from Mathsci earlier today. [154] [155] These comments were in the discussion about the ArbCom election, but since an admin who disagreed with him in the RFC was commenting there, Mathsci still used this discussion as a platform to snipe at him about it. As a way to avoid further conflict in this area, I would consider it reasonable for topic bans from this case to be extended to all discussions related to race and intelligence articles. But if this extension is going to be made, I think it should be applied to all topic bans, including mine, Ferahgo’s, and Mathsci’s. Making an exception in Mathsci’s case is basically an endorsement of more of the same behavior demonstrated in the two diffs linked above. Is this something that admins want to encourage? I also think it would be helpful if some admins could comment here who Mathsci isn’t privately in contact with via e-mail. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC) Result concerning Captain Occam[edit]
Reply to Mathsci and Vsevolod[edit]
Sanction[edit]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Wikifan12345
[edit]| Topic banned for eight months. |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Wikifan12345[edit]
Everyone makes mistakes, it's nothing to get excited about, but Wayne alerted me to another time in the same article where Wikifan had taken some words out of context to make a Frankenstein quote of sorts (here) and I got curious and uncovered numerous instances in this article where Wikifan had significantly deviated from the source, misrepresenting the speaker and the content, to slander Finkelstein. In these examples alone he has used Wikipedia to accuse Finkelstein of expressing solidarity with a terrorist, conviction for violating "professional ethics norms", and stating a belief in Hezbollah's right to kidnap Israelis, all while using two direct quotes that don't appear in the sources and grave misrepresentation of speakers. These are gross violations of BLP and where not uncovered at the time, leading to protracted talk page wars in which Wikifan defends, at length, his disingenuous additions. I had to file a BLP report before he would even acknowledge that the quote wasn't from Finkelstein.
My thanks to all involved and my gratitude for the fair dealing with a long-running issue. Given the nature and repetition of the offenses and the failure of other measures to curb them I think the 8 month topic ban just. I don't relish bringing administrative action against other editors but there was simply nothing else to be done. Sol (talk) 18:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Wikifan12345[edit]Statement by Wikifan12345[edit]Update: Sole keeps updating his statements above and it makes it difficult to keep up with what is he accusing me. Are editors allowed to revise their accusations again and again post-discussion? For example, here is what he says: Sole: Wikifan quotes Finkelstein as declaring Hezbollahs "right" to kidnap individual soldiers. Except the source is talking about prisoners of war and doesn't mention rights in the source, nor kidnapping, nor individual soldiers. Despite recieveing no support on talk page, Wikifan ignores calls of BLP violations to reintroduce the edits. Here Wikifan admits Finkelstein never talks about the "right", and continues to argue for its inclusion.
I ask again what rules have I violated, explicitly. If this is a BLP issue well breezing through the discussion it is clear several editors were complicit in promoting original research and inserting or attributing statements to Finkelstein he never actually made, including editors making accusations against me here. Even if we assume a maximum number of three of my edits contained BLP vios, that is not grounds for a topic-ban. The fact that Sole filed this under the request of a topic ban should reveal his own partisan bias in the I/P arena. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Topic Ban - questions for administrators[edit]
Comments by others about the request concerning Wikifan12345[edit]
EdJohnston points out below that the 1RR notice was added after all this edit warring. However, I do believe that 5 reverts in less than 48 hours (4 of them are within 24 hours) constitutes edit warring and a violation of 3RR as well. I would add that the fourth of those reverts within 24 hours was made by Wikifan12345 while logged out, which raises concerns of possibly intentional sockpuppetry as an IP address to avoid 3RR. With the 1RR notice going up, I don't think fully protecting the page necessary, though it probably won't hurt. ← George talk 06:14, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Wow, I just read through (too much of) that lengthy RfC. It appears that just about every editor involved disagrees with you:
Initially I thought that this was just a problem of some minor edit warring, maybe a little POV-pushing, and had intended to suggest that admins consider a shorter topic ban, something along the lines of a month. However, after reading through literally pages of other editors not just disagreeing with you, but calling you out on multiple instances of distorting sources to smear the subject, I would suggest a permanent topic ban from this specific article. Though if administrators believe the editor's history warrants a broader sanction, I wouldn't be opposed. ← George talk 04:25, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
George, I don't understand why you're this dedicated. Wait, I do. Cherry-picking statements to demonstrate a trend that does not exist. This simply an attack on my character right now. Regardless, the RFC was about several edits being debated. There was no edit-warring going on. Just because a series of like-minded editors disagreed with me does not prove a behaviorial issue that warrants a topic ban. I did not violate any policy (NPA for example) during the RFC. To prove your bias in this case, it seems you clipped Gato's statement. Perhaps providing the DIFF will provide a more honest context, but naturally that would defeat the goal: . Wayne continued to force content that he invented himself, which was defended by Roland and others as well. The content is no longer in the article (for obvious reasons). My edits on the other hand have been challenged for misrepresenting the source material, which I've debated heavily. That is not a behavioral issue or a violation of policy. It's like I edit warred the content into the article. The vast majority of my contributions took place in talk. And lest I remind everyone here I was the one trying to honor the RFC and include the edit that we all agreed on. I feel like I'm being surrounded here and am beginning to lose track as to what this AE is all about. Can an authority figure explain what I'm being accused of specifically, you know - like what rules and policies I have violated? Specifically please. I wasn't edit-warring, I did not engage in any personal attacks. I discussed virtually all my edits extensively cordially (for the most part). Wikifan12345 (talk) 06:06, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
George you are grasping. This isn't about right and wrong. We're talking about a multi-party content dispute, not some playground teasing. The quotes you listed were snipped, cut, edited, and taken out of context. You went to the effort in taking suspicious quotes without linking their location, and edited full sentences or removed them. I ask again why did you remove Gato's statement? Perhaps because it implicates editor Wayne, which you cite as evidence for disruptive behavior? The burden of proof rests against you here George. The level of analysis here is close to propagandic. Editors are begging for a topic ban and there is very little evidence to support it, considering my rather minute contributions to the article space. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:02, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I think Wikifan12345 should be topic banned from Norman Finkelstein. His POV pushing and WP:OR in that RfC was just ridiculous, and we're talking about a BLP here. Top that with one month worth of WP:IDHT. Tijfo098 (talk) 06:00, 1 December 2010 (UTC) Whether due to ulterior motives or simply due to lack of competence, we should not allow editors who have repeatedly violated WP:BLP to continue unabated. I find it interesting that the cohort who praised SlimVirgin's preening of Horowitz's article of all the (presumably accurate but) silly quotes doesn't say anything here, when the violations here are of WP:V rather than just "merely" of WP:UNDUE. Alternatively, can we have a list of BLPs that are AE-approved mud targets? Tijfo098 (talk) 06:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Slim Virgin added the 1RR notice to the talk page at 01:15 on 1 December, which is *after* all the above edits by Wikifan and WLRoss. EdJohnston (talk) 06:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I fundamentally disagree with the proposal below by EdJohnston for full protection and a continuation of discussion on the article talk page. It is precisely because this process has failed that Sol has felt obliged to make this submission. The fact is that we have been conducting this discussion on the talk page for several weeks now -- some 20,000 words over the past three months. There is clear consensus between half-a-dozen or more editors -- all of the editors on the page except for one. But Wikifan is stonewalling and filibustering, in an attempt to prevent any outcome other than her/his preferred BLP-violating smears of Finkelstein. To adopt Ed's proposal would merely condemn us to several more weeks of this, with no possibility of a conclusion. The only way this can possibly be resolved is through a topic ban or other sanction against Wikifan, so that other editors can proceed with the article. This submission is not about a content dispute; it is about the disruptive behaviour of Wikifan. In addition to the instances noted above by Sol, Wikifan has repeatedly, and falsely, accused Wayne of "inventing an analogy", despite clear evidence to the contrary. S/he has edit-warred to include demonstrably false assertions about Finkelstein's views, and to remove reliably-sourced facts. S/he has refused to cite sources, stating that "Finkelstein supports Hamas does not need support. It is a true statement." The quantity of disruption, denial of good faith, "I didn't hear that" and outright obstruction from this one editor is unacceptable, That is the problem, not the content. RolandR (talk) 12:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Wikifan12345 has edited on many articles that have been tagged as indicating the entire topic is under 1RR, and in this context, I don't think we should ignore the edit warring. PhilKnight (talk) 17:15, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
In his book Alan M. Dershowitz says: "...Nasrallah and his anti-Semitic organization Hezbollah that Norman Finkelstein praised and regretted not having supported more forcefully" There are many more quotes in this book and in other books and articles that show who norman finkelstein really is.Will this be BLP violation to add those quotes to the article? No, it would not be because it is the truth supported by reliable sources. I do not believe Wikifan should be banned at all. And, no, topic bans should not necessarily be escalated. Please seeUser talk:Nableezy topic bans as an example. And, if Wikifan was edit warring, it takes at least two user for this. Even, if he will be topic ban for I/P conflict for 3 or 4 months, it will be a punishment unheard of. --Mbz1 (talk) 19:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
T Canens idea of an 8 month ban seems to me to be reading the consensus wrongly. There is no general consensus amongst uninvolved users (even admins) for a ban of this length. Polargeo (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Wikifan12345[edit]
It is time to close this. It is my view that a long topic ban is needed to prevent further disruption to this already fragile editing environment. If good work in other areas can be demonstrated, we can always lift the ban early on appeal, but given the history here, the ban should stay until shown to be no longer needed. Accordingly, under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions, Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) is banned from all articles, discussions, and other content within the area of conflict, as defined in WP:ARBPIA#Area of conflict, for eight months. This sanction may be appealed as provided in WP:ARBPIA#Appeal of discretionary sanctions. T. Canens (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2010 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Shuki
[edit]| Overtaken by events. |
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Request concerning Shuki[edit]
Not relevant.
Discussion concerning Shuki[edit]Statement by Shuki[edit]Comments by others about the request concerning Shuki[edit]Shuki has just been blocked for 6 months for abusive sockpuppetry in the topic area. I think that makes this request moot. nableezy - 23:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Shuki[edit]
Overtaken by events, it seems. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Shuki. T. Canens (talk) 23:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC) |
Nableezy
[edit]| Jiujitsuguy topic banned for 3 months and Nableezy topic banned 4 months |
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nableezy[edit]
The 1948 Palestinian exodus is currently under a 1r restriction per recent enforcement action and warning of same is amply noted on the article[168]. Nableezy, an experienced editor whose rap sheet on Wikipedia evidences recidivist tendencies has now violated the 1r restriction by making two reverts in rapid succession, reverting myself as well as another editor.
Though the reverts relate to two different edits they are both within the same article and are still deemed reverts per Philknight[172] and an experienced editor like Nableezy should know better. He will undoubtedly claim ignorance and engage in extensive wikilawyering as he always does but I’m sure that those entrusted with upholding and dispensing equal justice will see through his shenanigans once and for all. It appears that Nableezy has withstood many AE’s brought against him while others in the topic area who do not share his view have been subjected to overly harsh topic bans. I hope that in light of Nableezy’s prior record, a sanction, consistent with those recently issued against Shuki and Wikifan (whose records are far better) is issued.
@T. Canens, Philknight,HMitchel. I didn't violate 1r, I didn't game, I discussed my single revert on Talk, I was never accused of being uncivil and I think my record is a bit better than Nableezy's. May I ask why I would be given a sanction equal to Nableezy?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 01:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy[edit]I self-reverted one revert, so I have made exactly one revert on this article, part of which was rewording the line to appease those editors who had a problem with saying something has been widely called ethnic cleansing when the source says Abu Sitta is a leading expert on the nakbah and what is nowadays widely described as the "ethnic cleansing" it involved. I also added sources for the statement among which was a leading historian saying that what took place was ethnic cleansing. So in sum, I made exactly 1 revert, rewording the sentence to comply with the objections posted by others on the talk page, expanding on the material in the body to comply with other objections posted on the talk page, and Jiujitsuguy defines that as "gaming". Lets take a look at this charge, because it is an interesting one. Jiujitsuguy has since Nov 29th made all of three edits to the article along with 2 edits to the article talk page. Those three edits, one on the 29th, one yesterday, and one today, were all removing this line. Those edits are all the edits he has ever made to this article. The two edits he has made to the talk page are as follows: yesterday he says he doesnt understand why the term "ethnic cleansing" is placed in quotes in the sources, and uses that absurd reason to remove the line. Today, he again asks this question and again removes the line from the article. Prior to him repeating the question, an answer was given and additional sources were provided for the statement. Yet Jiujitsuguy plays WP:IDHT and repeats the same silly question as though it absolves him of providing a real reason for removing the content. There are users here that are simply playing a game, using whatever thread they can pull from a policy, guideline, or essay they think supports their immediate goal of removing content that makes a certain place look less than perfect. They do this while knowingly and purposely ignoring NPOV, and they do it spectacularly well. The arguments so far advanced for completely removing this sentence was that contained a "word to avoid" or that it was not expanded upon in the body. Instead of changing a single word or adding material to the body, multiple editors remove the sentence under the guise of following this style guideline or that essay. Yes, I self-reverted a different edit so that I could use the revert here. That is not gaming, that is the opposite of gaming. I dont intend on waiting for 24 hours so that I am allowed to revert an <redacted> edit made without even a wave at Wikipedia policy, I dont intend to play that game. Ask Jiujitsuguy to explain how either of the two edits he made to the talk page justifies the 3 reverts he has made, 2 of them within 28 hours. As of this point, I have made a single revert on that page. I dont intend to make any more, and each of the editors here who oppose the edit has yet to see fit to respond to my replies on the talk page, which as of right now nobody has responded to in the past 3 hours. Yet they somehow are able to spend time here making several comments. I wonder why that is. nableezy - 21:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
To accommodate Jiujitsuguy's newly found sensitivities, I've redacted a single word in my initial response. nableezy - 22:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I dont understand how self-reverting to perform a different revert can be characterized as gaming. It is entirely transparent, and Jiujitsuguy certainly seems to take advantage of what a 1RR "entitles" him to on a regular basis, see for example the 28 hour revert cycle on this article [174], [175], or the recent edit history of 1982 Lebanon War, or Preemptive war, or really any article Jiujitsuguy edits. nableezy - 03:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC) I think the most telling thing about this process is that two users who have removed the contested sentence from the article, Jiujitsuguy and No More Mr Nice Guy, have each made several edits to this page since my revert. They have not however made any comments in what is now going on 27 hours to the talk page of the article. Yes, I made a revert. But the revert that I made was not simply a straight revert. NMMNG raised 3 issues on the talk page. 1. there are "words to avoid" in the sentence, 2. the material is not expanded on in the body, and 3. BRD was not followed. The first 2 of these are valid objections, the last is a transparent attempt at filibustering. In my edit, I addressed both 1 and 2. I then asked on the talk page if there were any further concerns. NMMNG has yet to respond there, but has the time to make several comments here. Jiujitsuguy's reasons for reverting on the talk page are laughable at best, but even those reasons have been addressed. Neither party seems interested in the actual content here, as evidenced by their apparent willingness to completely avoid the discussion. You can say what you will about my use of AE, but almost all of the AE requests I make are based on editors acting in an unacceptable manner in article space. That is, my concern is the content of the articles. Here, the user is concerned with eliminating an "enemy", not in making sure that the content of the article be compliant with the policies of this website.A number of admins have been calling my use of a self-revert to be an example of "gaming". I've already said why I dont feel this to be the case, but if yall see it that way then so be it. But a bit of advice, if I might be so bold to assume you might listen. If you dont want this to be looked at as a game, try to make this more than an exercise in counting. Jiujitsuguy makes a revert on the 1st and makes a comment, note not an actual reason, at the talk page. He waits 28 hours so that he may perform another revert, making the same comment at the talk page without so much as acknowledging the response to his initial comment. If this isnt a game, the rules shouldnt allow for these nominal gestures of making a comment and then waiting for 24 hours to do the exact same thing. For some reason that I have yet to comprehend, you all seem to think that the number of reverts a person makes determines whether or not that person is a "disruption". Its as if you believe that because you must remain "uninvolved" that you cannot actually look at the content of the reverts. You follow a simple formula, if the revert was not removing the word "fuck" inserted by a vandal or an obvious BLP issue it counts as 1 strike. The strike count is reset after 24 hours. If you have 2 strikes at any point you are a "disruption" and will be sanctioned. Honestly, do the rules I describe resemble anything more than a game? I dont want to play this game, which is why I simply self-reverted a different revert so that I could perform this revert. I think the idea that waiting 24 hours makes a "bad" revert into a "good" one incredibly stupid. I knew there was more than a decent chance that we would end up here when I made the edit. I object to the idea that I purposely gamed the 1RR. This will sound arrogant, in fact it is arrogant, but I really am much smarter than that. If I wanted to game around the restriction I would be much more clever in doing so, I wouldnt simply make a self-revert then label a different revert as a 1 revert. One more request, can yall please try to resolve these issues more quickly? nableezy - 21:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC) Discussion concerning Nableezy[edit]
Didn't nableezy very quickly self-revert one of the reverts? This self-revert reverted this revert --Mkativerata (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I want to make it clear because the request as filed focuses on a 1RR violation, which I don't think is the issue:
The issue seems to be whether Nableezy was gaming 1RR. But of course there could be a good explanation - it seems to me that Jiujitsuguy's edit removed the basis for Nableezy's revert (removing the material in the article that supported the category). --Mkativerata (talk) 20:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Mkativerata, Nableezy just took me to AE on a very similar revert issue so he should stop belittling others. He should know that my punishment was supposed to calm things down, but he is apparently still on the warpath. You trying to justify his very poor judgement is unbecoming of an admin like yourself. Why get yourself burnt? Nableezy is claiming that Jiujitsuguy is using whatever thread they can pull from a policy, guideline, or essay they think supports their immediate goal of removing content. I laugh. What did he do to me? On two reverts the book was thrown at me. Nableezy knows the rules better than most of his and should have merely relaxed. Shuki 6 month ban, Wikifan 8 month ban. Who's next? --Shuki (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
@Amatulic: I agree that a number of editors are out to "get" Nableezy and have him removed from the area of conflict. However, that doesn't change the fact that these AEs may on occasion throw up real, actionable, violations of policies and norms. I think we need a clear view one way or the other on whether Nableezy's actions are acceptable - a warning to avoid actions that other involved editors may perceive to be violations leaves us hanging a bit. Nableezy's statement and my own comments above also raise questions about the filer's own actions which I think warrant interrogation. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
@Jiujitsuguy and Mbz1: In my view, the sanctionable conduct is the ongoing reversion of material from the article during an active discussion about its retention. Expected standards of behaviour go beyond formal compliance with reversion rules and extend to seeking consensus instead of engaging in tendentious editing to pre-empt and disrupt consensus-building processes. If there is a discussion on whether to include certain content, discuss and don't revert. Although I agree it would be useful to whoever closes this out to make it quite clear why sanctions will be imposed on Jiujitsuguy. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:45, 3 December 2010 (UTC) There seems to be some confusion about what it is said that J did wrong. It is more than an issue with one edit:
@Amatulic - with respect I think that is a whitewash of what is going on this article. Nableezy states "We are allowed 1 revert per day". Wrong. That is part of the mentality causing so many problems. On the other hand, the evidence I've pointed to above shows a clear pattern of tendentious editing and edit warring by Jiujitsuguy. This is trench warfare and it needs firm sanctions in response. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
It appears that Nableezy self-reverted their first revert 6 minutes prior to making the second revert? ← George talk 20:06, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
I came to the article through a pending change notification of an edit by NoMoreMrNiceGuy in my watchlist. As the change was clearly not vandalism I permitted it. I thought that the edit was an illegitimate removal of a sourced statement, however, so I re-added text similar to that removed, but slightly lower down in the Lead. My re-wording was an attempt to more closely reflect what the source had said. I think that the article history and the talk page contents will both show that NoMoreMrNiceGuy and Jiujitsuguy both removed a validly sourced statement for illegitimate reasons while baselessly claiming to have consensus. ← ZScarpia 20:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Jujitsuguy's summary of Nableezy's edits is seriously misleading by omitting the intervening self-revert[184] at 18.43. By submitting such a seriously distorted case and omitting evidence apparently fatal to his claim, Jjg is underhandedly gaming the system. This submission should be speedily rejected. RolandR (talk) 20:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Amatulić, please be fair and do a similar investigation for the number of AEs Nableezy has pulled against his opponents. I welcome you to AE, but be careful before having mercy on this editor. I'm sure you can see for yourself Nableezy's bans and blacks, including 1RR before the general 1RR was in place. I've lost count of his multiple 24+20 minute reverts. You are right, enough is enough of this battleground and remorseless mentality. --Shuki (talk) 22:50, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Phil, what are you going to ban Jiujitsuguy for? And how about agreeing with Timotheus Canens? And why only one month for Nableezy? Aren't topic bans supposed to be escalated as you've done with Wikifan?--Mbz1 (talk) 00:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Jiujitsuguy is constantly violating npov with his edits within the Arab-Israeli conflict, here are just some examples: Claims the Mount Hermon ski resort in the Golan Heights is "in Israel": [185]. Refers to Syrian soldiers in Golan Heights as "during the years that Gamla was under Syrian military occupation". he uses this as an argument to use a map of Israel for a place that is internationally recognized as in Syria. Ads a map of Israel for a Cave in East Jerusalem:[186][187][188][189]"Undid revision 398232226 by activist editor". Claims Gamla in the Golan Heights is "owned" by Israel:[190]. Removes that Rachels Tomb is in the West Bank and ads that its "owned" by Israel:[191]. Claims Mount Hermon which is 100% in Syria and Lebanon and no part of it is in Israel, is "in Israel" and says: "Part of the Hermon lies in Israel and in fact, it is a magnet for tourists w/ ski resorts & lodges, while the Syrian Hermon lies in waste". Claims that territories that Israel occupied in the Six day war is "Israels territories":[192] This is clearly someone who has severely failed to adhere to a neutral pov, and is inserting his personal pov into articles, instead of a neutral pov. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 02:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Furthermore I have now found an article written by Jiujitsuguy where he says some pretty disturbing things, including "Islamofacist influence on Wikipedia" and refers to Wikipedia editors as "hordes of Jihadists and like-minded anti-Semites." This is clearly not someone who should be editing within the topic area. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Setting aside the technicalities of 1RR policy/gaming, I don't think it is the case that 'Nableezy and Jiujitsuguy have been at each other's throats for quite a while now'. Jujitsuguy was given the opportunity of a fresh start after his unblocking following the investigation into his off-wiki activities and publications (with my help). I think peace has largely prevailed between Nableezy and Jiujitsuguy since then and Jujitsuguy has refocused his efforts on trying to get Supreme blocked/topic banned (apparently requiring some use of double standards on his part User_talk:PhilKnight#Shuki given statements he has made off wiki). It's disappointing that Jujitsuguy has decided to revert to his previous belligerent approach towards Nableezy. What seems pretty pointless about this incident is that the content will almost certainly eventually say what Jujitsuguy and others are working hard to prevent it from saying simply because that will be the inevitable result of applying the rules that govern content decisions to the information present in reliable sources. Contrary to popular belief in some circles, blocking editors does not erase information in reliable sources. One set of editors are adding sourced content, the other set are removing the content together with the sources. They seem like quite different types of behavior to me. The discussion on the talk page should be allowed to take it's course without being disrupted so perhaps protecting the article and forcing everyone to resolve the issues through discussion might work better. I'd also encourage admins to take a look at the discussions and compare the natures of the arguments being used. It's a pity that everyone didn't just stop editing and talk about it rather than start another report-fest. This case is different from Shuki's. That was an example of someone simply refusing to abide by the result of a centralized consensus decision that will result in changes to a large number of articles. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Amatulic is correct in pointing out that there have been many reports filed against Nableezy with the hopes of making some stick. This should not be one of them. Nableezy has said above he did not intend to game the system. He has also stated that if undoing a revert to make another revert is unacceptable, he will not do it again (even offering to restore the page to where it was before his interventions). He has taken great pains to follow the numerous restrictions under which he is permitted to edit. A sanction now would be punitive and serve no purpose. Tiamuttalk 09:17, 3 December 2010 (UTC) Comment by Gatoclass[edit]While I am tempted to add some commentary on the behaviour of the respective parties in this dispute, I think I will refrain on this occasion. However, I must take issue with tariqabjotu's comment about users "who seem to always be in the vicinity of battleground disputes". That strikes me as guilt by association. Just because two (or more) users find themselves commonly engaged in disputation, doesn't necessarily mean that both are equally to blame for it. Gatoclass (talk) 11:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
While I initially declined to comment on the merits of this case, talk of escalating sanctions prompts me to reconsider. Firstly, I agree that Nableezy's self-revert constitutes gaming the system, and in a way that I think indicates a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality (in that he couldn't even wait 24 hours to make his next revert). His recent flurry of initiated cases against other users also indicates that his levels of frustration have currently reached breaking point. So I accept that he might benefit from a brief break from the fray. On the other hand, I am concerned that some administrators have apparently chosen to completely ignore the evidence of tendentious editing on Jiujitsu's part presented by Supreme Deliciousness. It does appear to me that on this board the actual goals of the project are frequently lost sight of. The goal of this project is not to teach people to be nice to one another, or to enforce rules about 1RR, it's to build an encyclopedia. Tendentious editing is far more harmful to this project than petty breaches of such restrictions. When users insert demonstrable falsehoods into articles such as that the Sinai or the Golan Heights are "in Israel" or "Israel's territory" that should ring very loud alarm bells. So I must repudiate any notion that Nableezy deserves a longer sanction than Jiujitsu; if anything, the opposite is the case. Moreover, one must consider not only the offence, but the provocation. Gatoclass (talk) 01:41, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
If reverting/restoring while discussion is ongoing is an ARBPIA enforceable violation, could you guys state that clearly somewhere so editors could be pointed to the ruling? It would also be helpful if you let us know what state the article should be left in once discussion is open. Should contested material be left out of the article pending the conclusion of the discussion, or is the version that is in place when discussion is open kept, or what? These things need to be made clear, since this situation happens very often indeed. It would also be helpful if admins let us know to what extent prior behavior and prior sanctions come into effect when determining enforcement here. I noticed the two admins who commented in the previous request saying prior behavior (in that case over a year old) should be taken into account have yet to make a statement. I await their opinions on this case. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
@Nableezy: Nice of you to acknowledge I had valid objections. On the talk page you called my concerns a charade. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I think (in fact it is obvious) that both editors are making numerous valuable contributions in this area and therefore the proposed lentghy topic ban is detrimental to wikipedia. Esteemed admins below surely don't need to be reminded that our common goal is to build a solid encyclopedia, not to create a gentlemens club. We need to find a solution that does not damage wikipedia. I think that this small violation should result in no action (ok maybe a very short ban, of, say, 24 hours), however both users should be banned from using AE for a set time. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:30, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Why everybody here believes that Jiujitsuguy has been on nableezy throat? No he has been not, just the opposite. Please see what he wrote to nableezy: "Third, I do not wish to gain any advantage over you during your 1R restriction and I will attempt to voluntarily restrain myself to 1R in articles that you and I have disagreement, for the duration of your restriction"--Mbz1 (talk) 17:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I find Nableezy's actions reasonalble and Jiujitsuguy's actions unreasonalble. In fact, an argument can be made that Jiujitsuguy's removal of the sourced content constitutes vandalism – thus restoring it does not count as an revert per WP:3RR. At the very least I suspect it was done in bad faith in an effort to undermine Nableezy's actions. I am also worried by the current trend to see 1RR restrictions more restricting than they are or should be – as exemplified by the resent WP:AE request against User:SlimVirgin. The current atmosphere makes any reasonable editing or use of the WP:BRD cycle almost impossible. The aim of the game is for editors to negotiate on the content. This is exactly what Nableezy was doing. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Nableezy[edit]I observe that Nableezy cases have appeared here rather frequently, almost as if someone has an objective to create a case for every archive of this page:
Perhaps I missed some. In any case, of all those Nableezy cases above, only a couple resulted in any significant action. The rest are not actionable or no action was required. This observation leads me to believe that a group of editors have been trying to use this Enforcement page as a tool against Nableezy at any opportunity, where any good-faith action on Nableezy's part that can be interpreted as a violation is reported here as a violation. The impression given by the list above is as if there's some coordinated effort to use this enforcement page as a weapon. Enough, I say. At the most, given the statements made by involved editors above, Nableezy should be warned about using self-reverts to make a more desired revert. Whether or not Nableezy believes that is gaming the 1RR restriction, the fact remains that it appears as gaming by others. I would also warn other editors to refrain from making frivolous accusations on this page. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Per recent comments above this section by Sol and BorisG, I stand by my original view that a warning is sufficient for both. The encyclopedia is not improved by topic-banning constructive editors who happen to have disagreements, and also not by banning one on a technicality in which he was trying to make improvements. AGF applies to both parties here. Maybe Nableezy wasn't consciously gaming 1RR in spite of how it looks. Maybe Jiujitsuguy isn't gaming the AE forum in spite of how it looks. AGF, guys. I propose that the 1RR restriction apply not to individuals, but to the topics that Nableezy and Jiujitsuguy work together in, which seems to be mostly P-I stuff (hasn't this been done already? I thought PhilKnight went through these articles). Then there would be no issue with one editor who isn't under 1RR to gain the upper hand over another who is. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:22, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
This can now be closed, I think. Based on the discussion above, and under the authority of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions:
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